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Today, I think we're going to focus on, you know, scams and security.

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Yesterday, I got from an old college professor an email from her actual email address,

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but it's clearly a phishing email account to be compromised.

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So you also can't even quite trust the known contacts to send you something that's always

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trustworthy. It's a social engineering problem. It's less technical or technological.

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As soon as there's a public data set out there, as soon as there's some way that

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you're associated as a cryptocurrency user, there's a little bit of extra motivation and,

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maybe a prize that these scammers perceive at the end of the road of trying to scan somebody.

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Welcome to episode six of the Bitcoin Boomers. I'm Bob Burnett. I have with me co-hosts Larry

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Lepard and Gary Leland. And today's special guest is Joe Kelly from Unchained Capital. Good morning,

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Joe. Good morning. Great to be here. We're happy to have you. Today, I think we're going to

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focus on, you know, scams and security and kind of all those things that, that, you know,

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they make a lot of news. And I think, especially in our generation, I think it scares a lot of

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people. You know, the, the, I think the boomers hear this stuff and it, it immediately like puts

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them into kind of like a deer in the headlights fright sort of, sort of mode. And maybe there's

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some justification for that and you know maybe not um and i think uh you know bitcoin when you

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combine bitcoin and the boomers um i think it gets even um scarier i mean the scam certainly

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are not uh exclusive to bitcoin but but i think when someone takes you're quite high

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yeah yeah but but i think when somebody finds out there's a boomer with bitcoin well you know i

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I think maybe the bullseye is a little bigger.

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Maybe.

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I'm not sure.

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I don't know if there's any way to create a statistic on that.

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But, you know, maybe, Joe, to get started,

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maybe we should even start with just a little bit of what Ain't Unchained is

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and what you do and any opening comments you might have on this topic.

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Yeah.

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happy to go into details. Unchained

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this year will celebrate our 10th year

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anniversary. We've

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been at it for

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quite a while now, longer than half of

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Bitcoin's life, which is crazy

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to think about. So maybe we're becoming

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a boomer company.

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But we

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we've always had

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the idea and the

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vision of serving long term

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Bitcoin holders with financial

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services. Acknowledging

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that while Bitcoin is a new form of money, it's unlikely to be best served by the way traditional

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financial services does it through centralized custody and, you know, a system with increased

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counterparty risk relative to what you can get when you self-custody or Bitcoin. So we've always

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tried to deliver our financial services in a format where clients can hold their own keys.

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That happens in our vault product where clients can custody Bitcoin in a format where they hold

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two of three keys. That gives them unilateral control because it's a two of three multi-sig,

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so they can move their Bitcoin without us being involved or preventing that. And likewise,

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if they lose a key, we can help them recover through our key. We also have loans. We lend

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dollars against Bitcoin as collateral. We have IRA accounts and a trading desk. Clients can buy

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and sell Bitcoin through. And then late last year, we launched a trust company that can provide

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institutional trustee services for folks, personal or private trusts.

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And so that also engages in some more greater forms of wealth management or financial planning

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for folks, depending on what they need.

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And I mean, back to a lot of the subject matter for this talk, I think kind of led with this

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intersection of Bitcoin and boomers, but it's certainly not a problem restricted to boomers.

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Anyone of any generation is susceptible to the main form of fraud in these kinds of

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scams that target people's Bitcoin, because most of all, it's a social engineering problem.

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It's less technical or technological.

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I think it's kind of like not so much the main thrust of it.

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It's really people getting at you with urgency or getting at you in ways that trigger you

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into making mistakes.

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And it's something that you're susceptible at any age, really practically.

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One opening point.

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You said a few things that I think maybe would be worth expanding, especially early in the show before we get a little deeper into some of it.

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I think one of the things that maybe confuses boomers about Bitcoin is what does it mean to own Bitcoin?

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What does it mean to custody Bitcoin?

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Why is it different?

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because I think it's so common for – and not just boomers.

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This is an everybody thing, but they think of –

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let's say they own Tesla stock and they use that phrase to own the stock.

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And to own something or to have rights to something or custody to something,

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there's some subtleties in there that maybe you want to expand on.

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Yeah, I think it has been part of the joy or the discovery process of working around a new asset in terms of how to reconcile it with the existing legal frameworks and system that's stood up around stocks and securities and the forms of property we have in traditional finance.

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So I think that one of the clearest ways to think about it is to separate what is legal ownership?

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What is the type of ownership that means something to an attorney, to the U.S. government, to a judge when it comes to probate or a process around someone's estate?

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That's one form of ownership when it means to own something.

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And separately, there's a form of ownership that looks like control or like you are the actual person that can move the physical asset into the control of another party.

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and so those are in some ways those can kind of collapse you and be the same thing in bitcoin

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and that's how i think a lot of people start in their bitcoin journey thinking that oh if i if i

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take self-custody surely i you know i do own it right i control it now but that is only part of

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the puzzle because if you die and pass on and that bitcoin wasn't registered as part of your estate

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or um you know you're you're filing your taxes and you don't have a clear statement or something

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you can hand to your accountant about maybe assets you have, then you're kind of missing

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a little bit more of that legal piece.

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And that's something we found at Unchain that we provide that helps bridge those concepts

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because you can get a simple statement from your Unchain vault account, a PDF that an

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accountant or an attorney is going to understand.

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It's got a financial services company letterhead kind of thing on it in a clear end of month

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balance type of a thing.

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It feels so very rudimentary, but it's a very practical thing we need in our financial lives that, you know, just sending your account into Bitcoin address doesn't quite suit.

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So it's important to have kind of both of those processes or both of those factors at play when considering what it means to own something that often our legal system and our regulatory system depends on some party attesting to a certain thing.

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And Unchain kind of gets to attest in a very real cryptographically proven way that this account under this name or under this trust owns or holds this Bitcoin.

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And then we can help provide evidence for that while that party can still maintain control that we don't have.

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No, as we explore this, I think, you know, Larry, you in the gold world, you know, coming with roots in the gold world, you know, the whole, you know, what's a bearer asset, a lot of the sound money folks, you know, are rooted in that.

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And then there's kind of the responsibility that goes with it, too, that I think probably creates some – it's kind of weird, but having the bearer asset or physically possessing something almost is scarier to a lot of people than having somebody else do that.

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And maybe you could expand on that.

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Well, yeah, I mean, certainly there's always been the issue with gold of where do you store it?

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You know, do you dare store it in your house?

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And, you know, if somebody shows up with a gun, they're going to take it from you.

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So, you know, there are custodians and there are safe deposit boxes

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and there are lots of people you can pay to store your gold.

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You know, of course, the issue there is then you don't have direct control of it anymore.

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And the third is when they grabbed the gold, they did go to the safe deposit boxes.

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So that's not necessarily a way to protect yourself from confiscation.

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You're talking about 6102, they went to the safety deposit boxes.

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Actually.

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Really, I didn't know that.

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They went to the banks and told the banks to open up the safety deposit boxes, see if there's any gold in there, and they had to turn it in.

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Really?

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I didn't know that.

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That's an interesting tidbit.

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Data point.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, and the fine was $10,000 in prison and stuff.

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I still think a lot of people took the gold out.

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Larry, I think that was like per ounce, wasn't it?

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Well, I don't know what the fine was.

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I remember.

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Which would be like $100,000 today.

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So it would really scare people.

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Oh, yeah.

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Well, I think there were some people who, you know, just hit it under their mattress anyway.

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I mean, the one beautiful thing about a bearer asset is that, you know, if you're smart about it, nobody needs to know that you have it.

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but you know an intangible bearer asset like bitcoin is obviously a kind of a different

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kettle of fish i mean 12 words and you control it and uh you know you don't need a safe per se

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although you certainly have to make sure you got the 12 words and and i'm gonna lose them

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so it's it's a you know it's a more modern problem but the you know the i mean self-sovereignty has

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always required, you know, personal responsibility. And, you know, there's some segment of the

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population that doesn't want to take personal responsibility. They, you know, or they'd rather

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pay an expert to do it, you know, and they, um, and that's fun. I mean, they leave their money in

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a bank because, you know, they know that the bank is theoretically honest, not all honest,

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but theoretically they are, and they can, you know, sue the bank if the bank takes their money.

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um you know and so i mean and that's why there'll always be a need for for you know an unchained and

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the services that joe provides are very very useful services because some people just don't

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want to mess with all the you know the responsibility of being self-sovereign you know in in it's only

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in extremists that being fully self-sovereign really cats right if if you know the world kind

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of goes to hell in a handbasket and you know the government says well we're going to confiscate all

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the bitcoin well they're going to call up joe's company and say hey you know who are your clients

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and joe's company is going to be forced i think to just close that i don't know joe maybe you can

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comment on that we are regulated uh so we you know have a responsibility to respond to the lawful

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requests and the um i i but part of what you said i get a lot of it depends on the kind of goals and

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part of your point about you know with this a bare asset you can keep it um yourself or outside the

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system, a lot of our clients are faced with wanting to own their Bitcoin in a trust or own an IRA or own in these other illegal vehicles that then really do need to be kind of registered or known somewhere.

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There's nothing wrong with that.

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You know, for most people, that's the way you should go.

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You know, for those extreme nutcases like me, you know, who prepared for the world to go to, you know, really dark place.

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I like being self-sovereign.

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hey can i ask you a question joe on this subject that uh i was talking about here someone asked me

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a couple weeks ago and i really didn't know the exact answer to this they were more on larry's

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way of thinking that you know everything was going to go to hell and we were going to have 1931 again

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or whatever and that they would come for bitcoin and the question was if you have your bitcoin with

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a company that's doing multi-sig like yourself,

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and they come down to Unchained

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and take all your computers

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and pull your server offline or whatever,

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do we still have access to get our Bitcoin out?

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Okay.

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I didn't really, I assume so,

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but I thought I would double check

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and make sure for anyone who is wondering about that.

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The important piece is

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when you are creating your vault,

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when you're instantiating a vault,

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inside your account with Unchained.

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There's an important piece of data there

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called your wallet configuration file.

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As long as you have that wallet configuration file,

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which we encourage and help our clients back up

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when we're helping them onboard,

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as long as you have that in your two keys,

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you do maintain your control.

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You have all the pieces you would need

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to recover on your own.

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Okay, excellent news.

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Excellent news.

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I figured there was, I just didn't know the answer.

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And I remember downloading all that a long time ago.

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So it been a long time since I opened my account there So my memory is not that good It needed to be re We thought about it and when we do our concierge onboarding or our professional onboarding services for clients

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we'll often walk through that sovereign recovery exercise.

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And we happen to maintain an open-source wallet called Caravan

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that you can load in a browser, and you can even download

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and have the code ready yourself if you wanted to.

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But the same wallet configuration file,

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these same keys you use if they're on Chain Vault,

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Those can be uploaded into any open source, multi-sig wallet, Sparrow, Spectre if it's still around, Liana Wallet, many of these others that are nunchuck that have some of this functionality.

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You can load in that file and sign with your wallets.

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The jargon, the security risks, the fear that one mistake could cost everything.

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Whether you're brand new or building a complex setup, we meet you where you're at and walk with you step by step.

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By the end, you don't just hope your Bitcoin is safe, you know it is.

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00:17:00,726 --> 00:17:07,426
If you're ready for that level of confidence, then head to btcmentor.io and book a call with us today.

216
00:17:09,766 --> 00:17:13,766
Well, I downloaded Caravan quite a few years ago.

217
00:17:13,906 --> 00:17:17,786
Would that be something that's been updated since then and I need to redownload a newer version?

218
00:17:17,786 --> 00:17:22,806
And it would it ought to still work in that form you have.

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I would encourage you to grab the latest version, especially if it's been a few years because it has been maintained both by us and outside contributors.

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I find it interesting, you know, a lot of the topic today, you know, is around security and scams and that sort of thing.

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And we found ourselves the first thing we end up talking about is the government seizing our Bitcoin.

222
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and the biggest scam of all just kidding i find that kind of funny um that we naturally went to

223
00:17:53,926 --> 00:17:59,226
that point yeah so quickly but i'll only wrap up with just a piece there on just that you know i

224
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am proud i do think that because we're in this frontier space at unchained where we are exposed

225
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to a lot of these new newer kinds of scams and newer ways of of people trying to get at bitcoin

226
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in a way that wasn't possible.

227
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Again, the asset didn't exist 20 years ago,

228
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but also just for people getting more clever about this,

229
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that our fraud and risk team is really at the front lines

230
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of how to figure out.

231
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It's kind of like battlefield medics

232
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or rather people in the Ukrainian war.

233
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It's like you're figuring out the modern ways to respond

234
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and deal with actors that are hungry for people's Bitcoin

235
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and getting more and more clever with how to get at it

236
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and also supporting law enforcement

237
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because back to your point about,

238
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or a point made earlier about,

239
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you know, how is the,

240
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you know, who's working on this at the FBI

241
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or at these law enforcement agencies?

242
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And there are, and there are divisions

243
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that are stood up and that are,

244
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you know, specializing more and more in this area,

245
00:18:53,926 --> 00:18:55,866
but they do depend on, in some ways,

246
00:18:55,906 --> 00:18:58,286
you know, commercial enterprises to help them

247
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or to be a resource.

248
00:18:59,926 --> 00:19:03,506
And so that's definitely a function that Unchained,

249
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when there are real criminal investigations,

250
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we can sometimes support.

251
00:19:09,086 --> 00:19:22,306
Well, you know, talking about to try to get us on our original subject here, I'll dive into this. This is kind of crazy to me, but I was talking to Mel the other day about this show and about you coming on the show.

252
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And while we're talking, first of all, my phone is set up to only ring if it's someone in my phone book, because I get so many calls from scammers that if you're in my phone book, my phone will ring and display your name.

253
00:19:37,326 --> 00:19:41,346
So Mel and I are talking and the phone rings and it says Unchained.

254
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So it's a number I have for customer service at Unchained.

255
00:19:45,246 --> 00:19:47,166
So I said, Mel, I got to go. It's Unchained.

256
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Let me see what they need and see if I can help them.

257
00:19:49,906 --> 00:19:53,446
So I hung up with Mel, went to it, and the person on the phone said,

258
00:19:53,506 --> 00:19:55,326
Hi, this is Joe Blow from Unchained.

259
00:19:56,066 --> 00:19:58,746
We have a security issue on your account.

260
00:19:58,746 --> 00:20:04,906
Someone has logged in and requested a phone number change from this number to a new number.

261
00:20:04,906 --> 00:20:07,146
and we're calling to see if you have requested that.

262
00:20:08,486 --> 00:20:10,846
And I just thought it was funny that you guys would call.

263
00:20:12,086 --> 00:20:12,926
And so I said, really?

264
00:20:13,046 --> 00:20:19,366
And I said, can you tell me who runs, who's the boss over there at Unchained?

265
00:20:19,486 --> 00:20:23,106
And he thought for a second, I guess he probably was looking at his computer screen in hindsight.

266
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And he said, Joseph Kelly.

267
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I said, yeah, anyone can.

268
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To myself, I said, yeah, anyone can figure that out if they're good enough to do this scam and spoof this number.

269
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I said well who was the first female employee you guys had like employee number three

270
00:20:38,566 --> 00:20:47,626
and he thought for a second and he goes I'm not here to answer survey questions I'm here to help

271
00:20:47,626 --> 00:20:53,546
you with your security do you need help you want help or not so I just hung up and then I said well

272
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you know I'd be a total idiot if that was Unchained and the guy was brand new and didn't know that

273
00:20:58,986 --> 00:21:16,146
And here they called me and I just blew them off. So I called Unchained and said, have you seen a request for me to change my phone number? And he goes, no, no, you got YubiKey. I mean, you know, set up, you got everything. There's no way he was getting this account to request anything.

274
00:21:16,146 --> 00:21:20,806
and so then i'm kind of pissed at myself i should have stayed on the phone and see what he wanted me

275
00:21:20,806 --> 00:21:25,566
to do you know because i'm sure he was going to have me do something to give him access he just

276
00:21:25,566 --> 00:21:29,986
didn't call because he was sitting there bored so i'm kind of pissed but i thought that was really

277
00:21:29,986 --> 00:21:34,786
interesting that uh that they well they they and i have mentioned before i'm on unchained

278
00:21:34,786 --> 00:21:40,086
you know so they knew i was on unchained and then they spooked your number so i mean that

279
00:21:40,086 --> 00:21:45,906
if i'd have been like a typical boomer i probably would have gone oh my gosh this is unchained look

280
00:21:45,906 --> 00:21:51,186
his unchanged phone number here and i probably would have started helping him so that's a really

281
00:21:51,186 --> 00:21:56,966
a big thing people need to be aware of i guess is what i'm bringing up um luckily i felt extra

282
00:21:56,966 --> 00:22:02,406
secure after talking to my customer service person but and if you don't have your yubi key set up get

283
00:22:02,406 --> 00:22:14,246
it set up yeah yes do you how often do you get those calls every day joe or every week or every

284
00:22:14,246 --> 00:22:19,046
month i'm not sure that i'm curious what the frequency that you guys see of

285
00:22:19,046 --> 00:22:27,186
they've happened in a way that i'd say is consistent with just industry-wide trends

286
00:22:27,186 --> 00:22:32,386
that really over the last 12 to 18 months last year year and a half uh it's it's increased um

287
00:22:32,386 --> 00:22:37,166
i can't speak for for the amount of clients that get those calls we don't always get them reported

288
00:22:37,166 --> 00:22:40,846
but reports of those kinds of calls have increased.

289
00:22:41,946 --> 00:22:45,046
And it's through either, and often, I mean,

290
00:22:45,086 --> 00:22:48,286
the most dangerous situations clients find themselves in

291
00:22:48,286 --> 00:22:50,526
is when they're already something else is compromised,

292
00:22:50,986 --> 00:22:51,786
like their Gmail.

293
00:22:52,666 --> 00:22:56,126
And so somebody else is, you know, an unauthorized person

294
00:22:56,126 --> 00:22:58,766
or one of these fraudsters is inside of their email account

295
00:22:58,766 --> 00:22:59,966
that they might use with Unchained.

296
00:23:00,326 --> 00:23:03,546
That's how they discover that they're an Unchained client.

297
00:23:03,706 --> 00:23:05,446
And then they utilize that vector

298
00:23:05,446 --> 00:23:08,066
and that the kind of trust people have

299
00:23:08,066 --> 00:23:09,726
or the association they have with Unchained

300
00:23:09,726 --> 00:23:13,366
as an organization to then disclose too much

301
00:23:13,366 --> 00:23:16,106
or be persuaded to take actions

302
00:23:16,106 --> 00:23:17,706
that then compromise their Bitcoin

303
00:23:17,706 --> 00:23:19,106
and compromise their security setup.

304
00:23:20,146 --> 00:23:23,286
So it's definitely, and I get these calls too

305
00:23:23,286 --> 00:23:26,146
from Google or Apple or any, you look at your phone

306
00:23:26,146 --> 00:23:28,046
and it looks like it's a Google 800 number

307
00:23:28,046 --> 00:23:28,746
or something like that.

308
00:23:28,746 --> 00:23:32,386
And it's not a phenomenon limited

309
00:23:32,386 --> 00:23:34,866
to just Bitcoin and cryptocurrency.

310
00:23:35,446 --> 00:23:38,146
There are a lot more increasing reports of people's iCloud,

311
00:23:38,946 --> 00:23:42,266
architectures being compromised and things like that.

312
00:23:42,326 --> 00:23:43,046
So it happens.

313
00:23:43,166 --> 00:23:45,946
But then as soon as there's a public data set out there,

314
00:23:46,006 --> 00:23:49,446
as soon as there's some way that you're associated as a cryptocurrency user,

315
00:23:50,046 --> 00:23:53,906
there's a little bit of extra motivation and, you know,

316
00:23:53,946 --> 00:23:58,186
maybe a prize that these scammers perceive at the end of the road of trying to scan somebody.

317
00:23:59,186 --> 00:24:04,886
I think you pretty much probably go on the list that the scammers buy of,

318
00:24:04,886 --> 00:24:07,026
known crypto people.

319
00:24:09,246 --> 00:24:10,986
So we're all screwed guys.

320
00:24:11,106 --> 00:24:11,666
They know it.

321
00:24:13,066 --> 00:24:15,626
Well, I think folks like us,

322
00:24:15,926 --> 00:24:18,326
not that we're famous or anything,

323
00:24:18,466 --> 00:24:20,466
but we are public facing

324
00:24:20,466 --> 00:24:22,226
and we're associated with Bitcoin.

325
00:24:22,686 --> 00:24:27,486
And I had a very sophisticated attempt

326
00:24:27,486 --> 00:24:30,226
maybe six months ago

327
00:24:30,226 --> 00:24:33,486
where people posing as Bloomberg interviews

328
00:24:33,486 --> 00:24:39,566
or viewers. They had, you know, requested an interview with me, which is I get, you know,

329
00:24:39,566 --> 00:24:44,246
I'm probably on a podcast a week, something like that. So it's a very common thing for me. And

330
00:24:44,246 --> 00:24:52,466
they, they were, so we set up the interview, we set it up for like several weeks in advance to

331
00:24:52,466 --> 00:24:58,966
fit my schedule. They were very professional about it. We went on the interview. They, they

332
00:24:58,966 --> 00:25:05,286
had a setup just like we're using today extremely professional about it and then

333
00:25:05,286 --> 00:25:13,686
then they started asking for um control like oh hey we're having audio issues we're having this

334
00:25:13,686 --> 00:25:23,066
we're having that can we can we can we install this software run this script you know and luckily

335
00:25:23,066 --> 00:25:29,866
you know, I was in a position to, to get it, but, but I have to say it, it caught me off guard

336
00:25:29,866 --> 00:25:36,186
because they were so good. Like this happened like 25 minutes into an interview and they had

337
00:25:36,186 --> 00:25:41,746
asked me great questions about Bitcoin, about mining. They were, they were very professional.

338
00:25:43,446 --> 00:25:51,826
And by the way, you know, I, they started asking things like, how do you custody and how do you do

339
00:25:51,826 --> 00:25:56,766
this and actually i i the interview never saw the light of day as you can guess but like one of the

340
00:25:56,766 --> 00:26:03,026
things i i said was hey i i actually use unchained and we use multi-sig and you know blah blah blah

341
00:26:03,026 --> 00:26:10,626
and i um i i i think that was well i think that was another layer of protection for me

342
00:26:10,626 --> 00:26:18,566
like had had i even done that you know gone too far i think i would have been okay because um you

343
00:26:18,566 --> 00:26:22,886
They were only getting access to one of three, not two of three.

344
00:26:25,606 --> 00:26:30,046
I had the same almost thing happen, except it wasn't Bloomberg.

345
00:26:30,046 --> 00:26:38,066
And while we were doing questions before the set it up, their third question was, how much Bitcoin do you have?

346
00:26:39,386 --> 00:26:41,086
I was like, whoa.

347
00:26:41,926 --> 00:26:48,126
He goes, well, I think that's a natural question to know how much Bitcoin a guy who's been doing a Bitcoin conference has.

348
00:26:48,126 --> 00:26:49,806
And I said, yeah, let's forget this interview.

349
00:26:50,306 --> 00:26:50,986
Good for you.

350
00:26:52,446 --> 00:26:55,126
Bob, the same group got through to me, and they actually did.

351
00:26:55,726 --> 00:27:00,966
They hacked me, and they got onto my computer, and it was really kind of a disaster.

352
00:27:01,106 --> 00:27:03,326
They took over my Twitter account for a while, as you'll recall.

353
00:27:04,246 --> 00:27:05,006
I remember that.

354
00:27:05,346 --> 00:27:06,586
Yeah, so it was successful.

355
00:27:07,066 --> 00:27:08,506
And I had checked them out.

356
00:27:08,626 --> 00:27:13,866
I mean, they showed me their names and photos, and I went to Bloomberg, and they were real people.

357
00:27:13,866 --> 00:27:21,426
But as you'll recall on that scam, they were claiming they had video difficulties and so they weren't actually letting us see them.

358
00:27:21,546 --> 00:27:22,226
You remember that?

359
00:27:23,826 --> 00:27:25,166
Did have some video.

360
00:27:25,426 --> 00:27:28,086
There were four people, but two of them did have video.

361
00:27:28,606 --> 00:27:30,946
And did they look like the people they said they were or not?

362
00:27:32,986 --> 00:27:34,326
Good enough, I guess.

363
00:27:34,406 --> 00:27:34,586
Yeah.

364
00:27:35,126 --> 00:27:35,406
Yeah.

365
00:27:36,126 --> 00:27:36,606
Okay.

366
00:27:36,606 --> 00:27:51,892
But they were all Americans by the way on accident in English very articulate highly educated people who should be putting those that intelligence and skills to practical use

367
00:27:52,492 --> 00:28:02,932
It's amazing how how many people choose this path and and how disappointing to what a what a sad life to.

368
00:28:02,932 --> 00:28:04,632
Yeah, right. To be just scamming people.

369
00:28:04,632 --> 00:28:06,692
There was an article recently in the journal on that.

370
00:28:07,252 --> 00:28:10,112
Somewhere I read how much these people in India are making.

371
00:28:10,312 --> 00:28:11,972
I mean, it's crazy.

372
00:28:12,112 --> 00:28:16,692
I mean, there's a whole cottage industry of ripping off boomers in America.

373
00:28:17,552 --> 00:28:20,792
I'll give you an example of a boomer situation here.

374
00:28:21,092 --> 00:28:28,372
We're going on a pilgrimage in Italy after or over Europe right after Bitblock Boom.

375
00:28:28,372 --> 00:28:33,452
and the deacon that's leading it sends an email out to 80 people who are going

376
00:28:33,452 --> 00:28:35,812
and carbon copies everybody.

377
00:28:36,892 --> 00:28:40,532
So I get my email and there's, oh, what in the heck is this?

378
00:28:41,192 --> 00:28:43,692
And I tell Kathy and she goes, it's okay, Kathy.

379
00:28:43,692 --> 00:28:46,932
Gary, you're so paranoid about anything like this.

380
00:28:46,992 --> 00:28:49,212
You're just overboard on the security stuff.

381
00:28:49,272 --> 00:28:50,072
It's crazy, Gary.

382
00:28:50,312 --> 00:28:52,932
These are all honest church-going people.

383
00:28:53,552 --> 00:28:54,132
This is her.

384
00:28:54,132 --> 00:28:59,332
and my thing is like, this is 80 boomers who are going to click on anything they see.

385
00:28:59,592 --> 00:29:01,512
This is the opposite of safe.

386
00:29:01,852 --> 00:29:04,972
While they may be nice people, they're not computer literate.

387
00:29:04,972 --> 00:29:10,252
So I have to email the deacon and send him a big explanation of the two differences between

388
00:29:10,252 --> 00:29:11,932
carbon copy and blind carbon copy.

389
00:29:12,232 --> 00:29:14,352
And he emails me and goes, wow, thanks for that.

390
00:29:14,432 --> 00:29:16,052
I'll BCC from now on.

391
00:29:16,092 --> 00:29:18,792
But it was just crazy that my wife's going, oh, it's fine, Gary.

392
00:29:18,812 --> 00:29:19,892
These are honest people.

393
00:29:19,972 --> 00:29:20,972
They go to our church.

394
00:29:21,312 --> 00:29:23,132
I'm going, yeah, I'm not worried about them.

395
00:29:23,132 --> 00:29:25,232
I'm worried about whoever they get hacked by.

396
00:29:25,652 --> 00:29:25,912
Right.

397
00:29:25,912 --> 00:29:26,072
Yeah.

398
00:29:29,212 --> 00:29:36,852
So several years ago, I was at a music, I was at a Peter Gabriel concert.

399
00:29:37,912 --> 00:29:42,252
And in the middle of the concert, we got a surprise.

400
00:29:42,812 --> 00:29:48,632
And that was that Sting came out to do a couple songs with Peter Gabriel.

401
00:29:49,272 --> 00:29:51,532
And so it was a really cool thing.

402
00:29:51,532 --> 00:29:54,872
And today we have the Bitcoin equivalent of that.

403
00:29:55,272 --> 00:30:01,892
So in our show with Joe Kelly, we have the pleasure of welcoming Terrence Michael to the show today.

404
00:30:02,452 --> 00:30:04,612
So Terrence, welcome to the show.

405
00:30:04,772 --> 00:30:17,172
And for those who don't know you, author of the book Proof of Money, very prominent voice in the Bitcoin community, big background in Hollywood and TV.

406
00:30:17,172 --> 00:30:20,292
And so we're happy to have you here today, Terrence.

407
00:30:21,172 --> 00:30:21,772
Well, thanks, guys.

408
00:30:21,872 --> 00:30:23,632
It's an honor to be with you guys.

409
00:30:23,692 --> 00:30:27,292
I always listen to you, and thanks for having me.

410
00:30:27,432 --> 00:30:37,172
It looks like you guys are doing a show on scams from the scammers or pitfalls, things to look out for online.

411
00:30:37,172 --> 00:30:48,592
Yeah, yeah, lots on – I think how Bitcoin is – securing Bitcoin is different from other things.

412
00:30:48,592 --> 00:30:56,252
Obviously, boomers, I think, often are targets of scams, not just in Bitcoin, but in other things as well.

413
00:30:56,452 --> 00:31:00,392
And we've told a couple stories about scams already.

414
00:31:01,252 --> 00:31:03,612
And so join on in.

415
00:31:03,792 --> 00:31:06,752
Let us hear what you have to say on this.

416
00:31:07,472 --> 00:31:07,632
Sure.

417
00:31:08,492 --> 00:31:15,532
Well, seeing that Joe Kelly's here, I can mention a couple things that sort of dovetail into his platform.

418
00:31:15,532 --> 00:31:20,092
One, you know, my and this wasn't even a Bitcoin thing, but it ended up being a scary Bitcoin thing.

419
00:31:20,172 --> 00:31:28,392
My sister, who lives in a very nice community, very nice house, they were targeted by this Chilean gang that went around and was breaking into houses.

420
00:31:29,272 --> 00:31:36,732
And the short story is that they physically took the whole safe, ripped it out of the floor and took the safe.

421
00:31:37,092 --> 00:31:43,992
And my sister called me and she's like, remember when you helped me set up a Bitcoin device key?

422
00:31:43,992 --> 00:31:59,832
She was using the wrong term. I'm like, yeah. She's like, I had that in there and I also had 12 words in there. I had the password, the passphrase. And so, of course, she freaked out. What am I going to do? And she had quite a bit of Bitcoin in there, her and her husband.

423
00:31:59,832 --> 00:32:08,892
And I didn't panic right away because I knew she wouldn't remember this, but we had set up a multi-signature setup with her.

424
00:32:09,252 --> 00:32:12,512
She had one key with Unchained and she had two of her keys separated.

425
00:32:12,592 --> 00:32:14,552
That was just one of her keys in there.

426
00:32:14,692 --> 00:32:17,972
But we did put a honeypot on there and I was monitoring.

427
00:32:18,212 --> 00:32:23,772
There was like 500 at the time and I think it quickly became a couple thousand and no one ever moved it.

428
00:32:23,772 --> 00:32:32,412
So the gang probably didn't even know that that was Bitcoin or otherwise they could have punched it right into Blue Wallet or Trust or whatever and immediately moved it.

429
00:32:32,832 --> 00:32:34,832
But of course, we just logged on to Unchained.

430
00:32:34,932 --> 00:32:38,732
I helped her with her key and with Unchained's key, and we just moved her into new multisig vault.

431
00:32:38,732 --> 00:32:50,072
So that was just like one thing that – one reason why over at the Bitcoin Advisor, we're always trying to tell people to try to find a collaborative security model with Bitcoin so you don't have those single points of failure.

432
00:32:50,272 --> 00:32:50,792
And it doesn't matter.

433
00:32:50,892 --> 00:32:51,692
I mean it could be Unchained.

434
00:32:51,692 --> 00:32:53,912
It could be Swan, Casa, Nunchuck.

435
00:32:54,192 --> 00:32:56,452
They all effectively do the same thing.

436
00:32:56,552 --> 00:32:59,072
They just have slightly different customers and whatnot.

437
00:33:00,372 --> 00:33:05,132
So that was one of the first scams that hit close to home.

438
00:33:05,292 --> 00:33:11,352
The second one was we had a client of ours who finally got to their first Bitcoin.

439
00:33:11,852 --> 00:33:13,772
And so for them, this was a lot of money.

440
00:33:14,032 --> 00:33:15,792
He was divorced, has a daughter.

441
00:33:16,992 --> 00:33:19,552
He came to us because he was stuck on Coinbase.

442
00:33:19,552 --> 00:33:22,812
He didn't even know how to get it off as a lot of people don't even know how to move their Bitcoin.

443
00:33:23,092 --> 00:33:27,412
So at the Bitcoin Advisor, we kind of act as key agents where we just hold a backup key.

444
00:33:27,512 --> 00:33:29,472
We'll help set them up wherever they want to.

445
00:33:29,572 --> 00:33:30,592
We're company agnostic.

446
00:33:31,552 --> 00:33:32,872
This guy wanted to be with Unchained.

447
00:33:33,312 --> 00:33:34,812
So we set him up with Unchained.

448
00:33:34,932 --> 00:33:36,272
They've got a key for him.

449
00:33:36,372 --> 00:33:37,192
He's got his own key.

450
00:33:37,272 --> 00:33:38,432
We helped set him up on a Trezor.

451
00:33:38,512 --> 00:33:39,592
We're holding a backup key.

452
00:33:40,612 --> 00:33:47,932
And it was only like three or four weeks in, and he says, hey, I met someone online.

453
00:33:47,932 --> 00:33:55,012
and we're falling in love. She's great. I already bought tickets for her. She's flying to California

454
00:33:55,012 --> 00:33:58,572
Christmas time. This was this past Christmas and I'm going to meet her and everything.

455
00:33:59,932 --> 00:34:04,332
Anyways, red flags went off for me and he didn't have to tell me. He's sovereign. He can do whatever

456
00:34:04,332 --> 00:34:08,332
he wants with his Bitcoin. He can obviously log on to Unchained with his key. Those two keys,

457
00:34:08,672 --> 00:34:14,932
boom, send and spin. But the reason it came to us is because he had requested our key and that's

458
00:34:14,932 --> 00:34:19,672
just very odd. That tells us that you lost your key or something happened. Why would you be

459
00:34:19,672 --> 00:34:24,372
requesting your backup key? Just blog him to Unchained. And simultaneously, because we were

460
00:34:24,372 --> 00:34:30,612
taking too long, because we always say, hey, are you sure you didn't lose your key? He went to

461
00:34:30,612 --> 00:34:35,332
Unchained and was requesting the key. So Unchained contacted us too and said, wait a minute, he's

462
00:34:35,332 --> 00:34:41,352
requesting two of his three keys. Is your client okay? Anyways, long story short, lots of text

463
00:34:41,352 --> 00:34:45,072
messages back and forth. We got Peter Dunworth on the phone with him and myself and just,

464
00:34:45,412 --> 00:34:48,532
you know, do you know what you're doing? And he said, I know what I'm doing. Trust me.

465
00:34:48,732 --> 00:34:54,072
This woman already made me $10,000 in USD. I gave her 5,000. They made me 10,000. We're like,

466
00:34:54,112 --> 00:34:58,192
how do you know? She sent me a screenshot. I can see on the exchange. It's like, you know,

467
00:34:58,212 --> 00:35:02,212
an exchange you've never heard of. And he's like, so I'm sending my whole Bitcoin. And we said,

468
00:35:02,712 --> 00:35:08,312
we just set you up here. You do not touch this. Don't, you know, this is not for you to mess

469
00:35:08,312 --> 00:35:15,332
around. He says, no, no, no. I'm going to turn this into two Bitcoin. Anyways, Unchain did everything

470
00:35:15,332 --> 00:35:19,092
they could to try to protect him. They saw what was going on. We did everything we could. And at

471
00:35:19,092 --> 00:35:23,652
the end of the day, and I posted about this because I wanted to prove to the community that does not

472
00:35:23,652 --> 00:35:26,992
like, some people don't like multi-signature. They're like, oh, you're not sovereign. It's like,

473
00:35:27,032 --> 00:35:31,392
no, you're sovereign. It's your keys. We're just custodians, which is why I like to call it

474
00:35:31,392 --> 00:35:35,952
collaborative security rather than collaborative custodian. We're really just holding the key.

475
00:35:35,952 --> 00:36:01,152
Anyway, so we let him sign with our key, and he sent it off and gone. So he texted us later. He said, I'm devastated. You guys did everything you could. I'm an idiot. I wish I could turn back time. I don't know what to do. And I feel bad. He's – I think he's Gen X, but he's still – he's in his 50s, and he doesn't – he was hoping to get closer to retirement.

476
00:36:01,152 --> 00:36:08,412
so i'm curious where was your sister located that rent attack sounds a little scary chilean gang

477
00:36:08,412 --> 00:36:14,892
where was she she's in laguna beach in a very nice area and it's similar to where i am near you know

478
00:36:14,892 --> 00:36:20,072
fred krueger here in brentwood and whatnot it's like the gangs go to the nice areas and so you

479
00:36:20,072 --> 00:36:25,532
know you got to just you got to just be careful um and it's why i like separating my keys it's

480
00:36:25,532 --> 00:36:29,192
why i use you know speaking of keys you you guys maybe already talked about the yubi key

481
00:36:30,032 --> 00:36:31,392
Larry, you may already use this.

482
00:36:31,512 --> 00:36:35,432
Like you, I'm with the Fonnie, you know, to get rid of the SIM swapping.

483
00:36:37,052 --> 00:36:40,672
There's just lots of things that we have to be careful of, you know, online.

484
00:36:40,792 --> 00:36:42,372
I get those Coinbase calls all the time.

485
00:36:42,452 --> 00:36:43,392
I'm sure you guys do.

486
00:36:43,692 --> 00:36:46,032
And I get the emails are endless.

487
00:36:46,732 --> 00:36:47,372
River now, too.

488
00:36:47,452 --> 00:36:48,992
I'm getting a lot of fake River calls.

489
00:36:49,572 --> 00:36:51,752
Yeah, River calls, River emails.

490
00:36:51,752 --> 00:36:56,192
And, you know, I always just do that quick thing you guys might have talked about where I hover my mouse over the link.

491
00:36:56,752 --> 00:36:57,552
I don't click it.

492
00:36:58,172 --> 00:37:02,572
And the little preview, it's like, oh, this is not river.com.

493
00:37:02,652 --> 00:37:04,052
This is not unchained.com.

494
00:37:04,612 --> 00:37:05,012
Interesting.

495
00:37:05,432 --> 00:37:07,892
Hey, Larry, it's kind of hard to hear you.

496
00:37:08,092 --> 00:37:09,592
Mel is telling me if you can move closer.

497
00:37:09,772 --> 00:37:11,892
And Terrence, I have a question for you about your services.

498
00:37:12,472 --> 00:37:15,832
Just because I know of you and I know Peter and everything.

499
00:37:16,232 --> 00:37:17,232
Yeah, you know Super Jim?

500
00:37:17,992 --> 00:37:18,672
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

501
00:37:19,432 --> 00:37:20,092
Too well.

502
00:37:21,292 --> 00:37:24,992
But your system is set so that when you're using Unchained,

503
00:37:24,992 --> 00:37:29,632
unchained has a key and you have a key and the customer has a key is that how it works is that

504
00:37:29,632 --> 00:37:35,272
why he called you and unchained yeah correct and since they only need two yeah for everyday spending

505
00:37:35,272 --> 00:37:40,832
they just plug in and so unchained or swan or whatever because you know unchained has their

506
00:37:40,832 --> 00:37:46,392
enterprise key of course and then the client has their one key and so for the most part no one ever

507
00:37:46,392 --> 00:37:51,552
calls us like if they call us there's a problem you know like we've had a few clients who died so

508
00:37:51,552 --> 00:37:57,592
So we help their family, their trust and inheritance with their keys, sign and move the funds or set up a new vault.

509
00:37:59,432 --> 00:38:10,192
But for the most part, it's really mostly high net worth individuals that are with us or companies or in this case, this guy Thomas who just doesn't know how to use keys and he knows he would lose his Bitcoin.

510
00:38:10,332 --> 00:38:11,472
Unfortunately, he lost it anyway.

511
00:38:12,752 --> 00:38:14,072
But that's really who it's for.

512
00:38:14,072 --> 00:38:19,052
By the way, we teach people how to do this completely on their own.

513
00:38:19,152 --> 00:38:20,072
It's completely open source.

514
00:38:20,272 --> 00:38:21,252
Our website shows everything.

515
00:38:21,252 --> 00:38:26,512
And I, you know, Peter jokes with me all the time because he's like, you know, we don't get any business because of you.

516
00:38:26,552 --> 00:38:32,092
And he's like, but I'm happy with that because I want to teach people how to be sovereign, how to do it with Sparrow, however they want on their own.

517
00:38:32,132 --> 00:38:33,432
It's like, you guys don't need us.

518
00:38:33,772 --> 00:38:35,932
But if after I teach you how to do this, this is confusing.

519
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544
00:40:25,992 --> 00:40:26,472
Gotcha.

545
00:40:26,772 --> 00:40:30,632
Yeah, I just didn't know that the keys were divided among three people.

546
00:40:31,292 --> 00:40:32,532
Yeah, jurisdictionally.

547
00:40:32,652 --> 00:40:35,092
Instead of like the normal, you have two and someone else has one, which makes sense.

548
00:40:35,532 --> 00:40:37,172
They're not going to lose both their keys.

549
00:40:37,932 --> 00:40:40,652
Yeah, and it's not for everybody, but yeah.

550
00:40:40,652 --> 00:40:48,972
we even well we implement at barefoot we implement this um internally but you know we have two key

551
00:40:48,972 --> 00:41:00,472
the two keys we possess are 2500 miles apart um so you know it it it's um and we have code words

552
00:41:00,472 --> 00:41:06,792
and things like that too um you know to make sure that you know this doesn't happen and i and i think

553
00:41:06,792 --> 00:41:12,452
in terms of like there's personal side and then there's corporate,

554
00:41:12,972 --> 00:41:15,892
you know, what you have to do with corporate management.

555
00:41:16,472 --> 00:41:17,832
Like, Joe, are you seeing that?

556
00:41:17,952 --> 00:41:20,692
Like we have all these Bitcoin treasury companies,

557
00:41:20,792 --> 00:41:24,752
but we're also seeing some companies start to have treasury.

558
00:41:25,052 --> 00:41:28,112
Is there a corporate adoption of this sort of thing?

559
00:41:28,252 --> 00:41:30,432
Obviously barefoot's one, but yeah.

560
00:41:30,472 --> 00:41:30,832
Yeah, certainly.

561
00:41:31,332 --> 00:41:42,498
Yeah especially in mining I say a lot more folks that are rooted in Bitcoin or a little more Bitcoin native in their business tend to adopt multisig I think more readily You bring up a good point because

562
00:41:42,498 --> 00:41:46,798
there's definitely the social layer around multisig, right? It increases some of that capability,

563
00:41:46,938 --> 00:41:53,558
especially as in the future, there's this kind of arms race to how do we verify who is on the

564
00:41:53,558 --> 00:41:59,278
other side of this phone call or even this video call kinds of things that even the types of

565
00:41:59,278 --> 00:42:03,518
questions, you know, Gary was asking because of his knowledge about Unchained. I think that's what

566
00:42:03,518 --> 00:42:09,658
one layer of adoption on Unchained is very similar to the approach that Terrence was talking about,

567
00:42:09,758 --> 00:42:16,998
but we have a feature set called Connections, which enable individuals to ask for another

568
00:42:16,998 --> 00:42:20,698
account to hold a key and basically share keys with each other across an account. So it's one

569
00:42:20,698 --> 00:42:25,358
great way that, you know, someone and their uncle or, you know, on behalf of their grandma can kind

570
00:42:25,358 --> 00:42:30,538
to pull the key and it creates this extra friction you know in the process and this redundancy of

571
00:42:30,538 --> 00:42:37,558
course um because you can just imagine as you know grandma or somebody might be getting scammed or

572
00:42:37,558 --> 00:42:42,518
trying to maybe just sell their bitcoin uh because they're they're feeling out but there's that that

573
00:42:42,518 --> 00:42:51,198
idea that that family member or someone else can be a a really solid verifier of you know who's

574
00:42:51,198 --> 00:42:54,018
actually trying to sign who's trying to get your pick on the other end what are you trying to do

575
00:42:54,018 --> 00:42:58,818
making sure they're talking to who they are through verifying personal facts and things.

576
00:42:59,918 --> 00:43:08,718
And so that's certainly one way you were encouraging clients to lean into for more robustness on these kinds of scams and issues.

577
00:43:08,718 --> 00:43:17,058
Just relying on trusted people, family members, to consider having them hold a key with you as a way to just be more resilient overall.

578
00:43:18,698 --> 00:43:22,938
And it looks not unlike the kind of corporate controls which businesses have had to figure out over time

579
00:43:22,938 --> 00:43:25,018
of just having multiple approvers.

580
00:43:26,138 --> 00:43:28,798
And we have had feature sets for many years

581
00:43:28,798 --> 00:43:31,958
that that enable delegated roles

582
00:43:31,958 --> 00:43:34,258
inside of a transaction process of who can stage,

583
00:43:34,618 --> 00:43:36,858
who can sign, who can actually submit and broadcast.

584
00:43:37,458 --> 00:43:40,598
So you do get those controls happening

585
00:43:40,598 --> 00:43:41,938
inside the organization.

586
00:43:44,758 --> 00:43:47,478
The wrench attack, which I guess, you know,

587
00:43:47,898 --> 00:43:49,818
Terrence, the thing you had with your sister,

588
00:43:49,818 --> 00:43:57,078
um i assume she wasn't home when this happened no um so at least at least the physical threat but i

589
00:43:57,078 --> 00:44:03,118
mean that's that's a scary thing too and and we were talking again before you were on terrence but

590
00:44:03,118 --> 00:44:10,858
you know like the four of us um at least within the bitcoin community um we we are known there's

591
00:44:10,858 --> 00:44:15,898
some level of of you know that that we're associated with bitcoin people assume we have

592
00:44:15,898 --> 00:44:25,498
some Bitcoin. And so I think we all have to have a certain understanding that we could be subject

593
00:44:25,498 --> 00:44:32,838
to that, whether that's, you know, kidnapping or, you know, some sort of physical threat.

594
00:44:33,878 --> 00:44:39,198
And, you know, multisig, I think, helps with it a little bit, like the holder of the other key,

595
00:44:39,198 --> 00:44:49,318
in our case is under strict instructions, regardless of what duress I may be under to

596
00:44:49,318 --> 00:44:56,678
not do anything. Right. And that's probably going to say now, but if you've got a gun at your head.

597
00:44:57,898 --> 00:45:04,978
Yeah. Well, I, the good news is I can't do anything. Right. So, so it's, it's, you know,

598
00:45:04,978 --> 00:45:09,938
it would have to be the other person that holds the keys that has to make that decision.

599
00:45:10,118 --> 00:45:10,978
And I said, you know, no.

600
00:45:11,078 --> 00:45:14,738
And we know in this case Unchained won't do it.

601
00:45:14,978 --> 00:45:22,358
And do you ever have those conversations, Terrence, too, like with your holding one of the keys for a lot of your clients?

602
00:45:22,978 --> 00:45:25,538
Do you have those kind of conversations ever?

603
00:45:26,538 --> 00:45:27,178
Yeah, a lot.

604
00:45:27,178 --> 00:45:49,538
And obviously every setup is different, but if you think of the worst-case scenario where someone is breaking into your house and assuming they've gotten past your gates or your security cameras or your firearms, all of which you should have, these people – first of all, it's pretty rare that you're going to have a wrench attack.

605
00:45:49,718 --> 00:45:51,298
Everyone wants easy friction.

606
00:45:51,578 --> 00:45:52,438
They want probabilities.

607
00:45:52,678 --> 00:45:55,578
That's why they're doing all of these online social engineering attacks.

608
00:45:55,578 --> 00:45:57,978
That's the way full stop.

609
00:45:58,978 --> 00:46:06,798
If someone's breaking in, they're risking spending the rest of their lives in jail, and they want to get in and out quickly.

610
00:46:07,678 --> 00:46:15,478
So we recommend different things, whether sometimes it's time locking, which I love because I can just show you.

611
00:46:15,578 --> 00:46:17,578
Let's go to the mempool, and I'll show you.

612
00:46:17,618 --> 00:46:19,958
You can't even touch my Bitcoin unless you can travel in time.

613
00:46:19,958 --> 00:46:25,038
Like this amount of Bitcoin, it's not even available for the next 18 months.

614
00:46:25,578 --> 00:46:33,398
I also like the multi-sig because you can even be honest with them or transparent and say, okay, I have one key on me.

615
00:46:33,458 --> 00:46:34,298
I can't do anything.

616
00:46:34,618 --> 00:46:35,958
You want to go get the second key?

617
00:46:36,858 --> 00:46:41,258
It's on 12 words in a safety deposit box at this bank.

618
00:46:41,398 --> 00:46:46,938
So we're going to have to go to the bank where there's security guards, where there's a camera, grab the words, punch.

619
00:46:47,258 --> 00:46:49,278
Like at a certain point, you can be honest.

620
00:46:49,278 --> 00:46:54,318
And like Gary said, if you're under duress, you sometimes maybe aren't prepared to lie or tell a story.

621
00:46:54,318 --> 00:47:04,058
So it's like, great. Do you want to go through? They don't want to. Well, here on this other wallet, I have a whole Bitcoin. Please don't take it. Wow, a whole Bitcoin. They're going to take it and run.

622
00:47:04,978 --> 00:47:12,738
So I do think a decoy wallet or having more than one wallet is helpful and like you having them geographically separated.

623
00:47:12,738 --> 00:47:17,418
Like, great, let's buy airline tickets and jump on a plane because I got to get over here, you know.

624
00:47:17,858 --> 00:47:30,838
And if the other key is like with Unchained and you have a key on you, which isn't the best in that situation, but then you can always – I forget what you call it, Joe, but it's like whitelisting or there's limits where it's like, okay, here we go.

625
00:47:30,958 --> 00:47:31,758
You know, please don't hurt me.

626
00:47:31,878 --> 00:47:33,938
Oh, 20,000 is the most I can send.

627
00:47:33,978 --> 00:47:34,478
There's a limit.

628
00:47:34,798 --> 00:47:36,458
Otherwise, we got to do a video verification.

629
00:47:36,758 --> 00:47:37,558
They're going to call me.

630
00:47:37,598 --> 00:47:41,958
It's like – so I think you just want to add as much friction as possible.

631
00:47:42,738 --> 00:47:54,258
um the the whitelist thing maybe you can expand on that joe i i'm not sure um i'm familiar with

632
00:47:54,258 --> 00:47:57,918
that and we should also talk about time lock probably a little bit more too which you you

633
00:47:57,918 --> 00:48:05,738
brought up terrence yeah yeah so presently we don't have uh native time mock features built

634
00:48:05,738 --> 00:48:10,658
into the vaults and the those kind of thresholds that terrence is talking about that depends on the

635
00:48:10,658 --> 00:48:15,358
fault type that one has, like a business fault, we'll have more of those kinds of functionality,

636
00:48:15,358 --> 00:48:19,258
but it's not necessarily baked into always, you know, how that the key, you know, signature

637
00:48:19,258 --> 00:48:24,178
requests. The biggest advantage we have with a signature request from Unchained is a true time

638
00:48:24,178 --> 00:48:29,418
delay. It's not instantaneous. So for people that are looking for a signature from Unchained,

639
00:48:29,598 --> 00:48:36,138
it often could take 24 to 48 business hours, sort of what we, what we pledge. And I mean,

640
00:48:36,138 --> 00:48:43,898
I think that to try to also kind of develop the rubric, I think one thing consistent with a lot of the stories we've talked about is that idea of just slowing down.

641
00:48:43,898 --> 00:48:50,318
Like the biggest thing they try to stoke in you is urgency when they've got in line.

642
00:48:50,438 --> 00:48:52,858
And it's different, of course, that there's these home invasion kinds of scenarios.

643
00:48:53,018 --> 00:48:54,398
The urgency is kind of right in your face.

644
00:48:54,838 --> 00:49:04,938
So that manufactured urgency when they're calling you or because you're on what appears to be a Bloomberg interview and they're trying to look your best.

645
00:49:04,938 --> 00:49:06,958
and like, you know, get this, do a solid interview.

646
00:49:07,058 --> 00:49:07,998
And then in that moment,

647
00:49:08,238 --> 00:49:10,238
this urgency to download this package

648
00:49:10,238 --> 00:49:12,378
or this thing that they're creating for you,

649
00:49:12,838 --> 00:49:15,538
that those are always really the biggest risks

650
00:49:15,538 --> 00:49:18,458
or where we're all most susceptible to make mistakes.

651
00:49:19,498 --> 00:49:21,658
So just truly just from like,

652
00:49:21,658 --> 00:49:23,318
like if there were a checklist about, you know,

653
00:49:23,338 --> 00:49:24,378
how to prevent these kinds of things,

654
00:49:24,378 --> 00:49:27,838
it feels like verifying who you are talking to

655
00:49:27,838 --> 00:49:30,638
and all the ways you can of that knowledge.

656
00:49:30,798 --> 00:49:33,098
And then secondly, like slow, slow way, way, way down

657
00:49:33,098 --> 00:49:37,678
and acknowledge that the technology here is such

658
00:49:37,678 --> 00:49:40,458
that you can rest assured there's not something

659
00:49:40,458 --> 00:49:42,358
that just happened overnight or just, you know,

660
00:49:42,418 --> 00:49:44,658
that just puts your keys at risk

661
00:49:44,658 --> 00:49:46,298
or something like an unchained account at risk.

662
00:49:47,498 --> 00:49:49,398
That, you know, creating a multi-sig wallet is a very,

663
00:49:50,078 --> 00:49:51,478
at least as long as it's done thoughtfully

664
00:49:51,478 --> 00:49:54,158
and that the things you use at the instantiation

665
00:49:54,158 --> 00:49:57,558
were kept, you know, secret and with care,

666
00:49:57,998 --> 00:50:00,358
that there's just no reason to ever have to rush

667
00:50:00,358 --> 00:50:02,238
through any process.

668
00:50:03,098 --> 00:50:09,818
So really time delays and time locks and things like that also I think are great guardrails for that.

669
00:50:10,958 --> 00:50:13,018
Sorry, Joe. I thought you ended there.

670
00:50:13,698 --> 00:50:14,458
I thought I was too.

671
00:50:15,378 --> 00:50:21,998
Hey, Kenneth, I was curious as to how long was that guy talking to that woman that stole his Bitcoin?

672
00:50:22,438 --> 00:50:24,098
How long did that communication last?

673
00:50:24,638 --> 00:50:27,118
It appears to have been about two to three weeks.

674
00:50:27,218 --> 00:50:28,138
It was very fast.

675
00:50:28,138 --> 00:50:34,538
As in most of those pig butchering cases, which what they're called, they contact them on Facebook.

676
00:50:35,638 --> 00:50:43,558
And you can always tell right away if you ask someone – this even happened to my dad, but I told him, dad, she's not interested in you.

677
00:50:43,798 --> 00:50:44,678
They contact you.

678
00:50:44,758 --> 00:50:46,378
They're like, oh, hey, you look pretty attractive.

679
00:50:46,498 --> 00:50:47,958
What do you – you seem really nice.

680
00:50:48,458 --> 00:50:50,338
And they're just – they're fishing.

681
00:50:50,758 --> 00:50:52,598
And they used to do this, of course, before crypto.

682
00:50:52,598 --> 00:50:58,638
And it's kind of sad because a lot of these people are somewhat modern slaves.

683
00:50:58,878 --> 00:51:03,598
They – similar to that TV series – what was that series on Netflix?

684
00:51:05,738 --> 00:51:11,178
The Korean one where they're all in debt and so they went to play this – suicide games or squid games.

685
00:51:11,398 --> 00:51:12,538
Yeah, squid games.

686
00:51:12,738 --> 00:51:13,278
Squid games.

687
00:51:13,278 --> 00:51:17,838
And so these people are in debt and these big factories hire them.

688
00:51:17,938 --> 00:51:18,898
They give them a place to live.

689
00:51:18,978 --> 00:51:19,818
They give them food.

690
00:51:19,818 --> 00:51:30,518
But they immediately become indebted to them, and sometimes they beat them, they harm them, but they have these tiny little dorms where they're with a bunch of people, and they have to collect.

691
00:51:31,538 --> 00:51:43,898
What we found out with this client, which was really interesting, she – the she, it could have been a he – ultimately felt bad for Thomas and privately sent him a message, which he screenshotted and sent to us.

692
00:51:43,898 --> 00:51:45,778
where he said, listen, I'm so sorry.

693
00:51:45,838 --> 00:51:48,338
I feel terrible, but we're all doing the best we can.

694
00:51:48,758 --> 00:51:49,758
God bless you.

695
00:51:50,438 --> 00:51:53,918
Hopefully, you can make some more money, but I had no choice.

696
00:51:53,918 --> 00:51:54,338
You can get it.

697
00:51:54,758 --> 00:52:00,898
Yeah, and yeah, she basically said who you were talking to this whole time was an AI model.

698
00:52:01,158 --> 00:52:01,998
It wasn't me.

699
00:52:02,638 --> 00:52:06,598
I'm not telling my bosses that you also have stocks because he does have stocks,

700
00:52:06,798 --> 00:52:08,458
and I'm just going to tell him.

701
00:52:08,518 --> 00:52:10,558
I'm just going to lie to him and say that you blocked me.

702
00:52:10,558 --> 00:52:25,458
So – and I don't know if you guys read. There was an article. I think it was New York Times or The Atlantic where there was some guy. He was talking to a journalist, and he worked at one of these pig butchering farms, and he had the journalist help him escape.

703
00:52:25,758 --> 00:52:36,318
Yeah, Joe, you probably read. It was a pretty popular article that went around and revealed a lot about how these pig butchering scams go in Cambodia and Southeast Asia, and it's tragic.

704
00:52:37,038 --> 00:52:38,058
It is tragic.

705
00:52:38,058 --> 00:52:40,958
So you're saying they're like slave scammers?

706
00:52:41,998 --> 00:52:43,938
Yeah, they're stuck too.

707
00:52:44,038 --> 00:52:49,618
I mean they're scamming, but they have to pay off their debts or they get – they're basically kidnapped.

708
00:52:49,838 --> 00:52:52,698
They're entrapped, and they're beaten if they don't bring in the numbers.

709
00:52:54,198 --> 00:52:55,078
Oh, god.

710
00:52:55,998 --> 00:52:56,438
Yeah.

711
00:52:58,838 --> 00:53:03,658
Now, a lot of these operators have been caught recently, but I don't know how many are out there.

712
00:53:03,658 --> 00:53:05,698
You think about the social engineering.

713
00:53:05,698 --> 00:53:08,038
I'm sure you talked about the whole Roblox crew.

714
00:53:08,338 --> 00:53:09,678
A lot of them are here in Los Angeles.

715
00:53:09,818 --> 00:53:21,238
They're like 18, 19, 20-year-old kids, and they're the ones that are sending all these Coinbase and Google links to try to get control of your computer or to have you change your password so they can see where you have keys.

716
00:53:21,358 --> 00:53:24,838
And they're looking in people's iClouds, and, oh, someone screenshotted their 12 words.

717
00:53:25,778 --> 00:53:27,798
But most all of them are based here in Los Angeles.

718
00:53:27,798 --> 00:53:34,238
You might have heard there were some audio tapes that were going around Twitter where people recorded these scammers.

719
00:53:35,878 --> 00:53:42,278
June Seth was one of them, and I think Brandon Quidium of Swan recorded another one.

720
00:53:43,118 --> 00:53:46,778
And they're just impersonating Coinbase support.

721
00:53:47,018 --> 00:53:48,798
Hey, we need to upgrade your thing.

722
00:53:48,898 --> 00:53:50,438
Something happened to make sure it's safe.

723
00:53:50,498 --> 00:53:51,458
Give us your 12 words.

724
00:53:52,038 --> 00:53:52,958
A lot of people don't know.

725
00:53:52,958 --> 00:53:57,118
And there was a Bitcoiner who's been around for like six, seven years.

726
00:53:57,118 --> 00:54:16,758
He's been using Sparrow, so he's very sovereign. He got a scam email that said there's now a Sparrow app. Well, there's no Sparrow app. He went to the phone. He punched in his words into the phone on the Sparrow app. He lost 7.4 Bitcoin.

727
00:54:16,758 --> 00:54:26,298
right this was about 12 months ago um yeah it's i mean we know we hear it over and over and it it's

728
00:54:26,298 --> 00:54:31,238
it bears repeating like you just do not those 12 words are your secret you know i always tell people

729
00:54:31,238 --> 00:54:35,838
you can't hold bitcoin if you can't hold a secret if you can't keep a secret you can't keep bitcoin

730
00:54:35,838 --> 00:54:45,358
it's that simple yeah yeah yeah i think picking um and some people aren't ready for it i mean i

731
00:54:45,358 --> 00:54:50,838
think that's that's the reality especially in our when i say our community i'm talking about the

732
00:54:50,838 --> 00:54:57,158
the the boomers you know the people i interface with and i i think some people would be upset

733
00:54:57,158 --> 00:55:01,938
with me for saying it there are people i interface with here that are in the 70s and 80s

734
00:55:01,938 --> 00:55:11,678
who who want some bitcoin exposure and for them i have to say go buy an etf like that that that's

735
00:55:11,678 --> 00:55:15,458
And I cringe saying it.

736
00:55:15,578 --> 00:55:19,898
I'm sure there are Bitcoiners who get mad at me that I've directed people that way.

737
00:55:20,458 --> 00:55:22,338
But it's that or nothing.

738
00:55:22,678 --> 00:55:23,338
It's that or –

739
00:55:23,338 --> 00:55:26,578
Bob, I just turned 71 Sunday and you're telling me that –

740
00:55:26,578 --> 00:55:27,978
Well –

741
00:55:27,978 --> 00:55:29,498
You're saying, oh, 71.

742
00:55:29,544 --> 00:55:30,784
I didn't say all of them.

743
00:55:30,904 --> 00:55:32,304
I said some of them.

744
00:55:33,124 --> 00:55:34,244
No, you're right though, Bob.

745
00:55:34,344 --> 00:55:42,264
Some people have to – like my parents would 100% be in ETFs if it wasn't for me.

746
00:55:42,264 --> 00:55:51,224
But they actually own Spot Bitcoin because I convinced them to convert their bonds into Bitcoin, and they also use Unchained.

747
00:55:51,504 --> 00:55:57,784
So I know they don't know how it all works, but I feel safe knowing that their keys are separated and no one can get it.

748
00:55:58,764 --> 00:55:58,824
Yeah.

749
00:55:58,824 --> 00:56:02,064
Yeah. I think we can do that for our families, but we all have.

750
00:56:02,144 --> 00:56:05,644
Right. I learned this early, too. We all have a personal bandwidth, right?

751
00:56:05,684 --> 00:56:09,024
Because the first couple of people I was orange peeling.

752
00:56:09,204 --> 00:56:13,584
Well, let me help you. I'll come over. We'll get a Trezor or we'll get a cold car or whatever.

753
00:56:13,584 --> 00:56:18,644
And we'll set the whole thing up, you know, and it's fine to do that for a couple of friends.

754
00:56:18,644 --> 00:56:21,584
And then it starts kind of exploding. Yeah.

755
00:56:21,744 --> 00:56:27,744
And and and then the phone call comes a year and a half later, like, hey, I can't do this.

756
00:56:27,744 --> 00:56:28,584
I can't do that.

757
00:56:28,664 --> 00:56:30,484
I want to, you know, I want to sell it.

758
00:56:30,544 --> 00:56:31,244
What do I do?

759
00:56:31,364 --> 00:56:35,064
You know, and you become technical support.

760
00:56:35,324 --> 00:56:35,484
Yeah.

761
00:56:35,724 --> 00:56:36,424
Tech support.

762
00:56:36,964 --> 00:56:38,244
And, you know, I do feel a little bit.

763
00:56:38,244 --> 00:56:38,864
You're the right guy for that.

764
00:56:42,944 --> 00:56:50,564
But, you know, I guess the one thing, because I think there's, you know, I guess that's kind of Bitcoin via proxy, you know.

765
00:56:50,564 --> 00:57:01,324
And then there's, there's, you know, kind of third party custody, which would be, I guess, you know, having Coinbase hold it for you or Kraken or somebody like that.

766
00:57:01,324 --> 00:57:04,104
And then there's self-custody and there's multi-sig.

767
00:57:04,324 --> 00:57:25,724
And, you know, I guess picking the right one for somebody or maybe even using one of those as the gateway to one of the less sovereign ways as a gateway into it is – I guess what I'm getting at is you can't leap to necessarily for everybody.

768
00:57:25,964 --> 00:57:26,584
For sure.

769
00:57:26,584 --> 00:57:29,304
the things that we're talking about.

770
00:57:29,484 --> 00:57:31,304
A time-lock multi-sig, for instance,

771
00:57:31,424 --> 00:57:35,124
is not probably the starting point for everybody.

772
00:57:36,004 --> 00:57:36,044
No.

773
00:57:36,564 --> 00:57:38,784
I mean, I could jump in and just say,

774
00:57:39,164 --> 00:57:40,424
in general,

775
00:57:41,104 --> 00:57:44,684
you have to pretend that,

776
00:57:44,884 --> 00:57:46,204
not pretend, what's the right word?

777
00:57:46,724 --> 00:57:48,904
Just behave as if anything you want,

778
00:57:48,964 --> 00:57:49,884
you're going to go shopping.

779
00:57:50,084 --> 00:57:50,944
If I want something,

780
00:57:51,024 --> 00:57:52,464
I'm going to go to the mall and buy it.

781
00:57:52,624 --> 00:57:55,564
I don't need someone to try to sell me a shirt or pants.

782
00:57:55,564 --> 00:58:02,984
And what I mean by that is when I get these emails and it's like you need to do this, click here, click there, nope, just delete.

783
00:58:03,084 --> 00:58:04,624
I get the phone calls, nope, just delete.

784
00:58:04,884 --> 00:58:08,824
If I need something, I'm going to call Coinbase.

785
00:58:09,204 --> 00:58:12,444
I'm going to go get a new signing device.

786
00:58:14,024 --> 00:58:20,764
Wells Fargo, Vanguard, Fidelity, if they're even doing the same things, it's like, no, I don't need to click this link and upgrade.

787
00:58:20,764 --> 00:58:27,384
delete the email and just go to fidelity.com and now let me see do i have a notification in there

788
00:58:27,384 --> 00:58:32,284
you know that's probably this the simplest thing and then i would say hovering your mouse over the

789
00:58:32,284 --> 00:58:37,004
links i mean that's just i do that every single time just because that that just cracks me up how

790
00:58:37,004 --> 00:58:43,684
easy it is and they don't even try to make it close yeah you know don't yeah some simple like

791
00:58:43,684 --> 00:58:51,044
Don't open a PDF from an email that you don't know or a JPEG or anything like that.

792
00:58:51,164 --> 00:58:56,284
Just don't open files from people you don't know.

793
00:58:58,124 --> 00:59:02,224
Another way, Bob, is just set your phone not to ring if you don't have a phone number in it.

794
00:59:02,324 --> 00:59:03,024
I love that.

795
00:59:03,624 --> 00:59:07,224
You'll leave a message and you can call them back and then add them to your phone.

796
00:59:08,004 --> 00:59:08,204
Yeah.

797
00:59:08,424 --> 00:59:08,884
Smarto.

798
00:59:08,884 --> 00:59:09,144
More like that.

799
00:59:10,484 --> 00:59:10,744
Yeah.

800
00:59:10,744 --> 00:59:14,224
I don't know how I did that, but I know I figured it out.

801
00:59:15,124 --> 00:59:15,324
Yeah.

802
00:59:17,984 --> 00:59:18,464
Yeah.

803
00:59:19,244 --> 00:59:19,764
And just awareness.

804
00:59:20,004 --> 00:59:26,204
That's why I love y'all are doing this episode because there's just kind of a new world order about how easy it is.

805
00:59:26,364 --> 00:59:28,444
The cost of attacking is so much lower.

806
00:59:30,004 --> 00:59:36,324
But you can't replace just good judgment and people deciding to slow down, not trust phone calls, not trust emails.

807
00:59:36,324 --> 00:59:38,484
even the point about

808
00:59:38,484 --> 00:59:41,764
yesterday I got from an old

809
00:59:41,764 --> 00:59:43,404
college professor an email

810
00:59:43,404 --> 00:59:45,604
from her actual email address but it was clearly a

811
00:59:45,604 --> 00:59:46,044
phishing

812
00:59:46,044 --> 00:59:49,524
her email account had been compromised so you also can't even quite

813
00:59:49,524 --> 00:59:51,384
trust the known

814
00:59:51,384 --> 00:59:53,304
contacts to send you something

815
00:59:53,304 --> 00:59:55,524
that's always trustworthy

816
00:59:55,524 --> 00:59:56,164
like you do

817
00:59:56,164 --> 00:59:59,564
hovering over links kinds of a thing

818
00:59:59,564 --> 01:00:00,944
still really matters

819
01:00:00,944 --> 01:00:03,384
to just always

820
01:00:03,384 --> 01:00:05,224
take careful steps with anything you get

821
01:00:05,224 --> 01:00:08,624
Have you guys seen that? Oh, go ahead, Bob.

822
01:00:09,284 --> 01:00:15,504
I was just going to say, I think we all have some certain that tingly spiny senses too.

823
01:00:16,064 --> 01:00:22,544
Like, you know, pay attention to those because they're probably right.

824
01:00:23,944 --> 01:00:25,084
Sorry, Terrence, go ahead.

825
01:00:25,544 --> 01:00:30,344
I was going to say, have you guys seen that? It's a newer scam, but it's been going on, I want to say, for the last six months.

826
01:00:30,344 --> 01:00:41,084
Well, they'll contact people like us here on the stage saying, hey, I want to interview you for a podcast, and they're talking to you as if they understand Bitcoin or crypto.

827
01:00:41,184 --> 01:00:42,424
Gary, do you know what I'm talking about?

828
01:00:42,904 --> 01:00:43,744
We covered this earlier.

829
01:00:44,024 --> 01:00:44,364
All of us.

830
01:00:44,364 --> 01:00:44,404
Okay.

831
01:00:44,884 --> 01:00:45,264
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

832
01:00:45,444 --> 01:00:45,604
Perfect.

833
01:00:46,144 --> 01:00:52,924
Yeah, they came after both Larry and I posing as Bloomberg people.

834
01:00:53,524 --> 01:00:53,964
There you go.

835
01:00:53,964 --> 01:00:56,264
I don't know who they were posing as when they came to me.

836
01:00:56,264 --> 01:01:00,264
I can't remember, but like I said, when they asked the first question, how much Bitcoin I have?

837
01:01:00,344 --> 01:01:03,604
Yeah, exactly. No Bitcoiner would do that.

838
01:01:04,324 --> 01:01:05,964
Yeah. I mean, they're really good.

839
01:01:05,964 --> 01:01:08,404
The other one is, I mean, I get investors.

840
01:01:08,804 --> 01:01:14,544
As a startup CEO, you get investor inbounds that look legitimate or look like some fund.

841
01:01:14,864 --> 01:01:19,944
And then, not unlike your story, Bob, it was show up at the certain time.

842
01:01:20,564 --> 01:01:25,804
Or the video software they wanted to use isn't quite working.

843
01:01:25,884 --> 01:01:28,704
Or their IT team asked me to install a package or something like that.

844
01:01:28,704 --> 01:01:29,744
And then, you know, just a big, right.

845
01:01:30,024 --> 01:01:48,202
It already red flags sometimes when you get inbound investor interest but it otherwise a you know a double concern when you know stuff like that happens when you show up But it yeah they really do target you based on your profile and how they can find the right psychological threads to pull on or buttons to push

846
01:01:48,202 --> 01:01:57,142
yeah um yeah one last thing i i think i might have mentioned it before but you know have with

847
01:01:57,142 --> 01:02:04,482
the key people in your life have some key words or or yeah you know secret words so that if you

848
01:02:04,482 --> 01:02:09,882
if you question whether or not something is authentic you can ask them you know i have

849
01:02:09,882 --> 01:02:16,202
them with my wife and my children for instance that you know they should should something happen

850
01:02:16,202 --> 01:02:20,182
And somebody poses as me or somebody's posing as them or something like that.

851
01:02:20,622 --> 01:02:22,962
You know, they have to say the word, right?

852
01:02:23,082 --> 01:02:25,082
That would be.

853
01:02:25,242 --> 01:02:27,622
Or something like only you would know, right?

854
01:02:27,642 --> 01:02:31,362
Like what's the color of the seat tractor that Aunt Edna had in the barn?

855
01:02:32,382 --> 01:02:33,182
You know, or whatever.

856
01:02:33,482 --> 01:02:34,322
Yeah, it has to be.

857
01:02:34,462 --> 01:02:35,622
Yeah, it has to be like that.

858
01:02:35,762 --> 01:02:35,882
Yeah.

859
01:02:36,742 --> 01:02:39,142
Yeah, it can't be what's your birthday or.

860
01:02:39,242 --> 01:02:39,642
Right.

861
01:02:39,922 --> 01:02:41,522
What city were you born in?

862
01:02:41,522 --> 01:02:44,862
Like, you know, it has to be like really obscure stuff.

863
01:02:44,862 --> 01:02:52,942
so um joe one thing we didn't we kind of talked i think a lot about you know the scams and those

864
01:02:52,942 --> 01:03:01,102
sort of things but um we didn't talk really about um planning for the future and the state planning

865
01:03:01,102 --> 01:03:07,782
and the trusts and like those sort of things and i think uh it kind of fits into a certain way like

866
01:03:07,782 --> 01:03:14,982
How do you secure your Bitcoin and make sure that it passes properly going forward?

867
01:03:15,282 --> 01:03:20,322
And I think that's, especially for us boomers, we all face the reality of a ticking clock.

868
01:03:21,762 --> 01:03:24,842
And so it's a concern.

869
01:03:25,942 --> 01:03:27,802
So you want to expand on that maybe?

870
01:03:28,842 --> 01:03:29,042
Yeah.

871
01:03:29,802 --> 01:03:36,062
So a lot of it depends on the goal someone's trying to achieve and what their sophistication level is

872
01:03:36,062 --> 01:03:37,702
or what other assets may be involved.

873
01:03:38,682 --> 01:03:40,922
Sometimes things can be as simple as, you know,

874
01:03:40,942 --> 01:03:43,322
a clear will that names, you know,

875
01:03:43,362 --> 01:03:44,962
where the Bitcoin passes it on to

876
01:03:44,962 --> 01:03:47,782
and then clear instructions about how to,

877
01:03:48,002 --> 01:03:49,202
if it's secured with Unchained,

878
01:03:49,722 --> 01:03:54,162
where some key material is that can enable the inheritors

879
01:03:54,162 --> 01:03:57,602
or folks, the heirs to work with Unchained

880
01:03:57,602 --> 01:03:58,582
to get the Bitcoin.

881
01:03:59,302 --> 01:04:01,202
But increasingly, you know,

882
01:04:01,202 --> 01:04:02,802
a very common account type at Unchained

883
01:04:02,802 --> 01:04:04,422
is a trust, a trust entity.

884
01:04:04,422 --> 01:04:24,962
And so a family trust that may be just for the Bitcoin or could be other assets as well. And so that's one way that you can associate that Bitcoin. There are types of trusts where you can still control the asset. There are other types of trusts where you need more of a directed trustee or you need an institution to actually have control over the account.

885
01:04:24,962 --> 01:04:38,382
And that's made possible, at least in the chain, through our subsidiary called Gannett Trust Company. It's a Wyoming charter trust company that can perform those kinds of services or be a qualified custodian for clients in their Bitcoin.

886
01:04:38,382 --> 01:04:40,762
and that's, it's a great format

887
01:04:40,762 --> 01:04:43,422
because you can get a lot of the benefits here

888
01:04:43,422 --> 01:04:46,002
of still lack of counterparty risk.

889
01:04:46,322 --> 01:04:48,782
You know, if the Bitcoin is at an account at Gannett,

890
01:04:49,282 --> 01:04:52,702
the keys can be held still such that Gannett holds a key,

891
01:04:52,882 --> 01:04:53,762
Unchained holds a key,

892
01:04:54,242 --> 01:04:57,902
and the client or the person instantiating the trust

893
01:04:57,902 --> 01:04:59,262
can also retain a key.

894
01:04:59,442 --> 01:05:01,502
So a lot of that kind of cryptographic proof

895
01:05:01,502 --> 01:05:03,962
or understanding of where the Bitcoin is at all times

896
01:05:03,962 --> 01:05:05,862
and redundancy and how the keys are held.

897
01:05:06,562 --> 01:05:08,182
And then through that kind of structure,

898
01:05:08,382 --> 01:05:19,462
It generally trusts when they're set up, it makes it very clear what's going to happen in the event of death or who inherits this or who are the beneficiaries of that trust in effect.

899
01:05:20,282 --> 01:05:31,962
So it's where the rubber starts to meet the road or as you start to hold Bitcoin for long enough and then consider it this long-term generational asset that really does need to integrate with those types of structures.

900
01:05:31,962 --> 01:05:44,922
And that's really where we started Gannett, as well as being an institution that can hold stock portfolios or be a place that other traditional assets can live at and kind of commingle with someone's Bitcoin.

901
01:05:49,802 --> 01:05:57,422
Do the people that reach out to you about that, is there a profile?

902
01:05:57,422 --> 01:06:01,442
I'm curious, are they younger?

903
01:06:02,022 --> 01:06:08,842
Are they the younger Bitcoiners who maybe understand Bitcoin well and want to be prepared for the future?

904
01:06:09,042 --> 01:06:14,502
Or is it more the older people who are in the back nine of life who go, I got to deal with this problem?

905
01:06:15,122 --> 01:06:16,662
What's the more common profile?

906
01:06:18,022 --> 01:06:18,442
It depends.

907
01:06:18,562 --> 01:06:23,302
I mean, certainly the impetus to set up a trust can come from a couple different angles.

908
01:06:23,582 --> 01:06:25,562
On the younger side, it might just be tax.

909
01:06:25,562 --> 01:06:38,542
You know, thinking ahead to like tax consequences or the needs of moving assets into a trust today helps you or your family in the future with not having as large of a tax bill when there's some realized gains.

910
01:06:38,542 --> 01:06:55,962
Asset protection, of course, as well, if you're, if you have liabilities because you're a business owner, or you're concerned and like, you know, marriage or other kinds of scenarios or getting married later, a trust is a way to segment those assets from those kinds of concerns.

911
01:06:55,962 --> 01:07:06,222
But definitely that still the majority of folks that are opting into Gannett or setting up a trust with Gannett's help, they are older.

912
01:07:06,582 --> 01:07:10,542
They're thinking about inheritance planning, estate planning kinds of concerns.

913
01:07:11,202 --> 01:07:14,302
And those are those are long cycles.

914
01:07:14,582 --> 01:07:20,182
You know, the cycle time of somebody wanting to go down that path that it could take six months of unusually.

915
01:07:20,182 --> 01:07:25,242
generally for any trust someone's bringing to Gannett, they've worked with an outside attorney

916
01:07:25,242 --> 01:07:30,762
to craft their estate plan to make sure that it addresses their personal situation. So these are,

917
01:07:31,182 --> 01:07:37,042
they tend to be very customized or tailored solutions. It's not like a cookie cutter,

918
01:07:37,042 --> 01:07:41,482
one size fits all, because everyone's situation is a little different. Different kids, different

919
01:07:41,482 --> 01:07:47,502
spouses or ex-spouses or things like that that have to be considered. So that's always there

920
01:07:47,502 --> 01:08:05,700
around the personal situation And then when Gannett receives trust documents we go through our own process to diligence it and make sure it clean and maps into what we understand the situation to be and how Gannett can serve that client over their life and any heirs

921
01:08:06,580 --> 01:08:08,140
So, yeah, it's a spread.

922
01:08:08,220 --> 01:08:12,560
It's a spectrum, but it does lean towards the older folks that are thinking about this and have the time and bandwidth.

923
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:14,740
I'm still in my late 30s.

924
01:08:14,740 --> 01:08:22,500
And so while I have a will, I have some of the basics, I haven't also gotten that next step personally into having a family trust or similar.

925
01:08:25,280 --> 01:08:27,040
Mid-30s, that sounds pretty cool.

926
01:08:27,460 --> 01:08:27,740
Late 30s.

927
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:31,440
Late 30s, mid-40s would sound cool.

928
01:08:32,460 --> 01:08:34,000
Hey guys, I've got to go.

929
01:08:34,140 --> 01:08:35,100
I've got another meeting.

930
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:36,680
I've got to be Joe and Bob.

931
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:39,480
I'll see y'all, I guess, next month at BitBlockBoom.

932
01:08:39,980 --> 01:08:43,660
Terrence, if you're interested in the past, hit me up and I'll take care of you.

933
01:08:43,660 --> 01:08:45,540
Okay, thank you. I appreciate that, Gary.

934
01:08:46,260 --> 01:08:48,040
And I enjoyed it, guys. See you all later.

935
01:08:48,480 --> 01:08:48,780
Thank you.

936
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:49,260
See you, Gary.

937
01:08:50,640 --> 01:09:00,420
Well, maybe as we wrap up, kind of go off topic for a minute, I'd just like to get your guys' perspective on one other thing.

938
01:09:00,420 --> 01:09:07,940
I think there was a big milestone in Bitcoin, and I should point out we're recording this on March 10th of 2026.

939
01:09:07,940 --> 01:09:16,140
and uh within i think it was in the last 36 hours we passed the 20 millionth bitcoin

940
01:09:16,140 --> 01:09:25,520
being issued and um so we got a million only a million potential left um and i say potential

941
01:09:25,520 --> 01:09:29,200
by the way because i it's one of the things you know being a little more on the technical side

942
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:35,100
and being a minor i think one interesting thing about bitcoin is that there's actually no guarantee

943
01:09:35,100 --> 01:09:44,300
of issuance that the miner who creates the block decides whether or not they want the Bitcoin or

944
01:09:44,300 --> 01:09:50,040
not. And if they don't take it, it's gone forever. There's a one-time chance. And there are a few

945
01:09:50,040 --> 01:10:01,360
cases in history where it didn't happen. Unlikely to happen a lot, but certainly possible. But I

946
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:08,340
just i find it fascinating and and uh because of the way bitcoin works as well uh over the next

947
01:10:08,340 --> 01:10:17,600
five years half of that million will will be gone too so um it it really is scarce and and you know

948
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,680
you guys have both been around bitcoin for a long time and kind of have watched this thing

949
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:29,160
and just you know wonder what thoughts emotions um uh that that brings to you

950
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:32,720
You want to go first, Joe?

951
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:34,640
Sure, I can go first.

952
01:10:34,700 --> 01:10:41,020
I mean, really, I think that thinking or appreciating that fact that most all Bitcoin that will exist, exists today.

953
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:45,960
It's really why Unchain's business model is geared towards long-term financial services.

954
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:53,660
So, and add to that the fact that most Bitcoin that's already here doesn't move in a given year.

955
01:10:53,660 --> 01:11:00,340
That at least 60% of Bitcoin historically is older than a year in terms of sitting in the address that it's been in.

956
01:11:00,340 --> 01:11:10,460
So that's kind of – that's how Unchained is geared our business model towards long-term holdings, and that's why we exist really.

957
01:11:12,860 --> 01:11:15,300
Yeah, it's really cool to think about.

958
01:11:15,460 --> 01:11:30,140
We know that Bitcoin, of course, is finitely scarce, but when you suddenly realize that there's only $1 million left and it's going to be now spread out over the next 114 years or whatever, yet it took, what, 17 years to get $20 million?

959
01:11:30,140 --> 01:11:38,200
I think that's pretty cool. I like to sort of think about it in that there's 20 million private keys.

960
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:42,040
There's private keys available for 21 million Bitcoin, right?

961
01:11:42,140 --> 01:11:46,740
Like we'll get private keys eventually because it's all there per the code.

962
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:49,740
We know it's there, just not in the circulating supply.

963
01:11:49,740 --> 01:12:00,380
But then yesterday I was just thinking – I was like what else – what other amazing commodities or assets or systems have come in this way?

964
01:12:00,580 --> 01:12:04,220
And I don't know if Satoshi was thinking this at the time when he did it.

965
01:12:04,300 --> 01:12:08,000
I mean I think it's obviously smart to incentivize the early adopters by getting more.

966
01:12:08,100 --> 01:12:14,660
And of course when there's no price at all or a few pennies, you want to start getting more so that it spreads out.

967
01:12:14,660 --> 01:12:18,440
But it's like, well, I think about like the gold rush in California.

968
01:12:18,440 --> 01:12:37,000
I think about like the oil boom in Texas. I think about just the land rush, right? The early pioneers running out and staking and it's kind of like there probably were these natural havings in a sense where other early people, oh, I can go get as much land as I want and look at all this oil in Texas.

969
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:50,900
But it's like it starts crimping down, crimping down. It's finite. And maybe that's a more fair system in that it's egalitarian in that whoever wants to put in the work can get it, but it's not going to be equal outcome.

970
01:12:51,060 --> 01:12:54,480
Some people want to work harder. Some people want to contribute more to an economy.

971
01:12:54,480 --> 01:13:16,400
Yeah. And only those people that recognize it, like I said, that that may be over in the physical world. Maybe some other element or something will be found and there'll be some sort of an opportunity like that. But unlikely, I would say at this point, that in the physical world, such a thing occurs.

972
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:33,340
And I think you gave really good analogies. And this may be the only one in the digital world, because at least I'm guessing you guys are with me, that I don't think Bitcoin is replicable. So, you know, this might be the last opportunity in humanity for such a thing.

973
01:13:33,340 --> 01:13:48,080
And I think it is cool because not only do you have to put in the work, you have to identify that this is the thing, like that this is a thing worthy of that amount of energy and that amount of work to pursue.

974
01:13:48,820 --> 01:13:51,220
And, you know, we all got it at a different point.

975
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:52,340
I got it in 2017.

976
01:13:53,100 --> 01:13:59,120
Others got it in 2015, 2013, 2011, and they got rewarded a hell of a lot more.

977
01:13:59,120 --> 01:13:59,520
Right.

978
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:10,078
And you know there one other thing that I do a lot of speaking

979
01:14:10,458 --> 01:14:22,538
I'm going to speak at BitBlockBoom about it is the scarcity of block space itself, I think, has a certain attribute like this because it's finite.

980
01:14:22,678 --> 01:14:24,878
There's only 53,000 blocks a year.

981
01:14:24,878 --> 01:14:33,898
And right now I think as Bitcoiners we take for granted that that block space will be there when we need it for essentially for free.

982
01:14:34,078 --> 01:14:37,838
And I believe that someday that won't be the case.

983
01:14:38,998 --> 01:14:48,878
And I do a lot of reading on economics and there's David Ricardo, famous economist in the late 1700s.

984
01:14:48,878 --> 01:14:52,758
And there's something called Ricardo's rent theory, David Ricardo's rent theory.

985
01:14:52,758 --> 01:15:05,678
And what he did was he looked at the scarcity of agricultural land, much like you were referring to Terrence, in Europe at the time, and said, well, there's only a finite amount.

986
01:15:05,678 --> 01:15:17,778
And what happens to the price of that land as demand grows when you have basically this thing of fixed supply and increasing demand?

987
01:15:17,778 --> 01:15:25,818
And as expected, it's an exponential reaction to that commodity.

988
01:15:28,358 --> 01:15:32,658
But this is a stark – I think, like I said, it's a stark reminder.

989
01:15:32,878 --> 01:15:37,518
I found it very cool that we passed 20 million.

990
01:15:37,738 --> 01:15:42,078
I just find really cool because I won't see 21, right?

991
01:15:42,438 --> 01:15:44,238
I won't see 21 million.

992
01:15:44,798 --> 01:15:45,438
None of us will.

993
01:15:46,198 --> 01:15:47,058
None of us will, yeah.

994
01:15:47,778 --> 01:15:49,418
In fact, we don't actually even get there.

995
01:15:49,638 --> 01:15:50,598
We never get there.

996
01:15:52,198 --> 01:15:53,258
You mean just nominally?

997
01:15:53,658 --> 01:15:53,798
Yeah.

998
01:15:54,238 --> 01:15:54,358
Yeah.

999
01:15:54,878 --> 01:16:07,858
Well, no, actually, it's more than nominal because in the history of Bitcoin, there are several instances where the full reward was not captured.

1000
01:16:08,818 --> 01:16:11,278
Oh, do they just not put their address in the Coinbase?

1001
01:16:11,498 --> 01:16:13,218
I mean, how do you not capture it?

1002
01:16:14,058 --> 01:16:15,238
So, well, here's what happens.

1003
01:16:15,238 --> 01:16:18,738
So I'm a miner and I create templates, right?

1004
01:16:18,898 --> 01:16:29,058
So I have the choice and or the responsibility to claim the subsidy and claim the fees.

1005
01:16:29,978 --> 01:16:31,458
But I don't have to.

1006
01:16:33,218 --> 01:16:42,218
And so there are cases in history where the miner, for whatever reason, didn't take the full amount.

1007
01:16:42,218 --> 01:16:49,958
And that's – some people believe it's like an homage to Satoshi.

1008
01:16:50,338 --> 01:16:54,198
Like they would just – it's not a burn.

1009
01:16:54,718 --> 01:16:56,718
It's an issuance that never happened.

1010
01:16:57,038 --> 01:16:59,618
So it's a subtlety.

1011
01:17:00,098 --> 01:17:01,698
Right, because it doesn't go back in.

1012
01:17:01,798 --> 01:17:03,798
It's not like it just loads back up.

1013
01:17:04,498 --> 01:17:04,778
Right.

1014
01:17:04,778 --> 01:17:04,878
Right.

1015
01:17:05,378 --> 01:17:11,858
So because what happens is what the protocol actually manages is the maximum amount you can take.

1016
01:17:12,218 --> 01:17:12,598
Right.

1017
01:17:13,018 --> 01:17:15,418
It doesn't say you have to issue it.

1018
01:17:15,458 --> 01:17:21,718
It just says, hey, right now you can issue three and an eighth Bitcoin plus whatever the fees were.

1019
01:17:21,718 --> 01:17:27,858
But you could choose or miscalculate and not take the whole thing.

1020
01:17:28,778 --> 01:17:38,798
And like there is a couple examples, I think there are two, where right before a halving, somebody clearly loaded the wrong template.

1021
01:17:38,798 --> 01:17:41,658
and they took the post-having subsidy

1022
01:17:41,658 --> 01:17:43,538
and not the pre-having subsidy.

1023
01:17:44,018 --> 01:17:44,338
Wow.

1024
01:17:45,418 --> 01:17:46,158
They have themselves.

1025
01:17:46,938 --> 01:17:48,998
They have themselves early

1026
01:17:48,998 --> 01:17:52,378
and then that Bitcoin is gone forever.

1027
01:17:52,758 --> 01:17:57,098
Like it's just not, it'll never be in existence.

1028
01:17:57,478 --> 01:17:59,798
There's no way for it to come back in

1029
01:17:59,798 --> 01:18:03,178
because each block is a unique opportunity

1030
01:18:03,178 --> 01:18:04,938
for the subsidy to be released

1031
01:18:04,938 --> 01:18:06,698
or the fees to be claimed.

1032
01:18:07,698 --> 01:18:08,598
Yeah, yeah.

1033
01:18:09,798 --> 01:18:15,778
I think that's why there was a discrepancy yesterday when we hit because it looked like at 939, 999, that block.

1034
01:18:15,998 --> 01:18:17,218
It's like, oh, $20 million.

1035
01:18:17,438 --> 01:18:22,538
And then some of the technical basement dwellers were like, no, actually.

1036
01:18:22,938 --> 01:18:23,638
That was me.

1037
01:18:23,958 --> 01:18:24,478
That was me.

1038
01:18:24,718 --> 01:18:25,538
No, I get it now.

1039
01:18:25,878 --> 01:18:29,318
Well, I'm the guy that – well, actually, we're not there yet.

1040
01:18:29,638 --> 01:18:30,878
So wait a few minutes.

1041
01:18:30,998 --> 01:18:31,778
Wait a few blocks.

1042
01:18:32,218 --> 01:18:32,878
Then we'll get there.

1043
01:18:33,358 --> 01:18:34,638
So yeah.

1044
01:18:34,998 --> 01:18:35,238
Yeah.

1045
01:18:35,238 --> 01:18:37,438
Yeah, you hate being that guy, but –

1046
01:18:37,438 --> 01:18:43,858
No, but it's a great way to learn, and it always speaks to the fundamentals and properties of Bitcoin, which I think we love.

1047
01:18:44,958 --> 01:18:47,578
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

1048
01:18:48,118 --> 01:18:50,498
Well, hey, guys, probably a good time to wrap up.

1049
01:18:52,278 --> 01:18:59,078
Terrence and Joe, maybe just tell people how they can contact you and learn more about you.

1050
01:19:00,078 --> 01:19:03,658
Sure. Happy to find me at unchained.com.

1051
01:19:03,658 --> 01:19:05,498
My email is joe at unchained.com.

1052
01:19:05,618 --> 01:19:07,698
So feel free to drop me a note if we can be helpful.

1053
01:19:08,898 --> 01:19:13,118
And I'm just proof of money on X on Twitter.

1054
01:19:13,538 --> 01:19:14,498
And I'm always there.

1055
01:19:15,138 --> 01:19:15,678
Hey, you.

1056
01:19:16,038 --> 01:19:20,698
Yes, you watching the Bitcoin price movements and the latest exciting news.

1057
01:19:21,138 --> 01:19:26,198
It's awesome to stay informed, but the real power of Bitcoin comes from taking control.

1058
01:19:26,718 --> 01:19:27,618
Don't just watch.

1059
01:19:27,838 --> 01:19:28,578
Take action.

1060
01:19:28,578 --> 01:19:38,338
Head over to btc sessions.ca slash learn for free step-by-step tutorials that guide you through every major skill you need to know.

1061
01:19:38,498 --> 01:19:42,778
Plus, full video playlists for deeper dives on any topic you like.

1062
01:19:43,218 --> 01:19:57,218
And if you're ready for the ultimate fast track, scroll to the bottom and check out bitcoinmentor.io for premium one-on-one experience with my team of Bitcoin experts to ensure you get it right the first time.

1063
01:19:57,218 --> 01:20:04,498
Don't wait. Secure your Bitcoin future today. Hit the link in the show notes or scan the QR code on the screen.