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The signal is here.

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This is Blood Channel Radio.

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Welcome, gentle pioneers, to the Lightning-Laced Airwaves.

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Today is Friday the 13th of March, and it is episode 155 of Plebchain Radio,

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and we have a fun one for you today.

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UTXO, the webmaster, returns to the show,

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and we're going to talk about WISP, his new NOSTA client,

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His replacement for Nostaband and much, much more.

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If you are hearing my voice right now on Spotify or Apple,

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thank you for listening, but also welcome to the legacy feed.

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It's a reliable signal, but it's read-only.

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Over here on Fountain and Nostar, the frequency is open.

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This is a value-for-value broadcast.

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There are no corporate scripts and no algorithmic nudges here because the producers of the show, that's you, fuel the engine.

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If you want to move from passive listener to active participant, come join the signal on the V4V side.

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Now, let's set the table for the final word.

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We have an executive producer for this episode, as you will hear later in the show.

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but the EP chair for next week is currently empty.

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As always, the top booster secures the title and the right to close out the show.

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The rules of the board are simple.

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Ratify or rectify.

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In a few minutes, I'm going to lay out the sermon.

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If the message resonates, boost in to ratify it.

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Add your context and back it up.

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If I miss the mark, boost in to rectify it and set the record straight.

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The board is in session and the top supporter gets the mic.

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Let's get into it.

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The sermon is, ask not for whom the bell tolls.

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We celebrate the dismantling of the old gates.

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We rejoice that the traditional tollbooths have been burned to the ground.

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In our new world, anyone can plug in, broadcast and build without seeking a blessing from a centralized authority.

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We often equate this open door with an effortless ascent.

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We confuse the absence of a warden with the guarantee of a thriving kingdom.

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A permissionless environment removes artificial barriers while retaining the fundamental laws of gravity.

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The terrain remains exceptionally rugged.

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stepping into a sovereign network means accepting a blank canvas alongside a set of cryptographic

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tools the network provides the immutable rails yet it'll never write your code orchestrate your

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film or synthesize your ideas into a compelling narrative the burden of creation rests entirely

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upon the individual the curtain is up you are now required to have something genuinely valuable to

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say. A system devoid of gatekeepers ruthlessly filters for competence. The old world offered

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corporate ladders to climb, credentials to hide behind, and managers to appease. This new paradigm

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strips away the bureaucracy and measures your output entirely by its raw utility and its resonant

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truth. You must forge your own discipline in the quiet hours. You have to do the unglamorous work

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of refining your craft and deploying your creative energy with absolute precision. Excellence becomes

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the only remaining metric. Many expect immediate validation because fiat algorithms have conditioned

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us to crave sudden engineered engagement. Sovereign networks operate on a significantly longer time

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horizon. Building a true web of trust requires years of consistent and reliable action. Establishing

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a meaningful reputation demands immense patience and a steadfast commitment to the mission.

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You are planting seeds in a digital soil that reward deep roots far more than sudden fleeting

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blooms. The individuals who survive here are the ones who learn to love the slow, deliberate process

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of accumulation. The friction we experience is a necessary proving ground for the builders and

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the artists alike. We're laying the foundation for a parallel economy and a sovereign culture.

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The magnitude of responsibility requires a hardened spirit. We must welcome the challenges

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that forge our competence and test our resolve. The beauty of the open path lies in its brutal

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honesty. You carry the full responsibility for your own ascent. Embrace the gravity of the

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undertaking. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, for it tolls for you. And joining me today is a man

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who knows a thing or two about tolling bells. UTXO, the webmaster. Welcome back to Plec Chain Radio.

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Thanks for having me, Avi. It's great to be here again, and nice to see you've upgraded the setup

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since the last time I was here. Yeah, we're not on Nostan S anymore. I think you were on Nostan

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Nostra last time, weren't you? Yeah, or Corny Chat, or I'm not sure. Probably Nostra, yeah.

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It was probably Nostra Ness. I mean, definitely Nostra Ness, but that's what we were on Nostra Ness,

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and now it's Riverside, streaming to Zap.Stream. So UTXO, you know, you're an interesting character

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because you have an, well, I say interesting, you have an interesting history with Nostra,

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which is you have these periods where you are ever-present, posting, memeing, you name it, building, and then you disappear.

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You disappear for months, and then you suddenly come back.

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So you are now in one such phase where after a period of, I don't know, being in the shadows for a while, you're back at it.

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you're one of the top posters as i was seeing someone someone posted a leaderboard recently and

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you're one of the top posters uh in the last few days uh what you've been up to man i know it's

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been like a year and a half or so since you were last on the show um yeah thanks for uh for shaming

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me there yeah that i think it was uh uh will will put out yeah the top poster i had like 800 posts

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in two weeks i was just that's just sad man um yeah but uh yeah i go through i do go through

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cycles and i definitely don't like bull markets that much man like when everyone's just like

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posting about the price and oh my god it's going up so much like oh i don't i don't like it um

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but it is it's just how i build man i get like all in on things i get like addicted compelled to just

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like work on a project and sometimes it's nostor sometimes it's my own business and then i need to

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take a break from nostor but i ain't going anywhere man good to hear man and i gotta say

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that was probably one of the worst bull markets of all time i'm oh i say all time it's my third

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that i've experienced and it was really bad because i feel like we have the worst of the

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worst people crawl out of the woodwork posting their price things and you know all this uh

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treasury company stuff that came out um and these people who were pretending to be bitcoiners but

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were actually shit corners in disguise right the treasury companies gave them the fig leaf of uh

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of protection saying oh what are you talking about of course it's bitcoin

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receipts and we're doing bitcoin stuff and i did not enjoy it yeah completely agree man it's oh god

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it was like all just driven by like governments and treasuries and wall street and preferred shares

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and all just fuck off man holy crap that was ugly and you know hopefully hopefully people are

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getting the picture now you know you can't just like hang your hat with some politician expect

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don't pump your bags. That's not how this works. We're trying to build money here.

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Yeah. And frankly, I was getting pretty uncomfortable with that,

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partly because of exactly what you said, which is you can never trust a politician.

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But more than that, there's the other side of it, which I was worried about,

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which is if you do, as Bitcoiners, get full-throated mainstream adoption amongst Wall Street,

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amongst all the politicians, then we stop being a dissident money at that point.

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And I don't think Bitcoin survives if it's not a dissident money.

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Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, nobody can stop the politicians from getting in.

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I think the main thing to remember is that all money, Bitcoin included, but maybe especially,

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is a network effect technology, right?

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So if we're not encouraging people to actually adopt the true technology that's behind this,

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then it won't grow.

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It is not written in the stone that this is going to happen.

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And if everyone's like, oh, I don't need to learn about money.

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I can just buy my ETF or buy MSTR.

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That is not going to work in the long run.

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Maybe that will work for one cycle, but that's not going to bring true adoption.

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and what everyone's like, at least I don't know what everybody wants anymore,

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but at least for my time, the Bitcoiners wanted Bitcoin to be money.

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So, yeah, I don't know.

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That vision in the community seems to sort of be fading, which is a little sad.

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Yeah, it is.

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I've noticed that too, right?

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That cypherpunk ethos is heavily diminished, if not gone.

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I mean, it's like there are a handful of people who actually give a crap about privacy, no KYC, peer-to-peer.

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Everyone's readily embraced intermediaries.

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They've embraced these proxies.

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I mean, it's too much of a strategy even to call these ETFs and treasuries proxies for Bitcoin.

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They're not Bitcoin, period.

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They have almost nothing to do with Bitcoin.

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and you'll have as much luck trying to zap an austenote with micro strategy stock as you will

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trying to zap it with gold right it's it has um it it has almost nothing to do with bitcoin

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yeah it it totally it's completely disconnected like who who even knows like what claims or where

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i mean yeah i don't know it's just a clusterfuck man so i like just my on-chain bitcoin i'm a

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simple guy, man. I just like my Bitcoin and my Sparrow wallet and that's it, man.

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Yeah. Noster wasn't entirely immune to the bull market blues. It wasn't as wretched as X was.

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X was completely taken over by the shills, right? The suits. Noster, while it didn't go that extreme,

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wasn't entirely immune. There were people talking about this stuff, right? The feed was that. And it

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didn't feel like, um, there is a bull market. How many bull markets have you experienced UTXO?

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Um, well, I got in at the end of the 2017 bull run, like I bought the top of 2017. So however

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long that is. Yeah. I mean, I was around that period as well. If you maybe just early 2017,

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when it was beginning with ICOs and all that stuff as well, late 2016.

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But there is a certain kind of euphoria that's there when the price is ripping.

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Yes, you get the deranged people coming out of the woodwork,

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but there is also a nice euphoria, which is there,

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which I certainly experienced then and in 20, whatever that was,

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the post-COVID bump, right?

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which was, it did not feel that way this time around.

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I don't know, it felt dirty.

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And the bear market that's followed

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has been one of complete and abject apathy

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from what I've seen, right?

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The 2022 bear market,

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I felt like there was a lot of hope.

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People were celebrating the FTX debacle

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and they were like, okay, finally we get to clean up

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and a lot of really cool stuff,

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including Nostra by the way got built in that in that 2020 you know from that bottom of 2022 I don know I don get that feeling yet over here And I don know if you heading there

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What are your thoughts? I mean, look, like when it comes to trading, what the price is going to do,

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I'm like complete new, but just my general sense is like, we didn't get any sort of event that

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we would normally get, I suppose, with like bottoms. And then I don't know, the stock market

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seems pretty shaky to me, especially with all this like war bullshit going on. So I don't know,

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I think if if stocks take a huge dump, then it's probably going to take Bitcoin with it.

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That would be my guess. But I, I have no idea. But yeah, I mean, just like my general sense,

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looking at all the cycles, like at least 2017. And I'll admit it, like back then,

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I was like shit coining. I didn't really know it just everything seemed really exciting.

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and new technology and new blockchains and you know it was the technology was super exciting and

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then in 2021 it was like all right the end of the world is actually happening um and bitcoin is going

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up so maybe it's actually true but this time it was like the president launched a shit coin like

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yay oh the the president is coming to the conference oh like fuck my life man it was

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it was not even the same there's no like there's no real excitement there i don't know i i just

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really don't get excited about politicians i don't know call me crazy yeah all right let's talk about

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um since you've re-emerged when was that like three or four months back um you've uh you've

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been pumping out things. So you recently launched Wisp, an Android client, and you're teasing a

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replacement to Nostaband, a much needed replacement, I would say. Let's start with Wisp.

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What, I mean, you're an Android user. You've got Amethyst, you've got Primal Android,

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you've got a few other options on Android. What made you say, you know what, I actually need to

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build something um well probably the biggest thing and i'm totally not going to turn this

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into like let's poop on all the client fest i'm just going to talk about from the perspective of

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like what i want and what my vision for nostr is and of course like everybody doesn't have to follow

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it um but i think most people probably know me on nostr from working on the relays right like

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Haven relay, Watt relay, all that kind of stuff. So I was really heavy into relays and like people

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hosting their own relays and having cool like algorithmic relay feeds. So I worked on that for

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like years, I would say, you know, like maybe I disappear for a couple of months taking a break.

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But I mean, that was the big thing I was working on. And like basically no clients adopted it,

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you know, like I didn't see very much client innovation at all in terms of like, let's say

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doing inbox outbox like having any kind of feed that's not chronological like chronological is

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great i'm not saying we should not have that but i mean there's a reason why every single social

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media out there doesn't use uh feeds like that right um that's because users want algorithms

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and rankings and stuff like that so i i put so much work into it and i even i got a grant from

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open stats for a couple of months to work on algor relay and stuff and then like no clients

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really adopted it and still no clients were doing outbox so i don't know i just got really tired of

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it um but i couldn't i didn't have like the front end skills to like make a really beautiful client

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i could have maybe made the engine and stuff for it but i couldn't have actually made it beautiful

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and nice um but now with like ai coming along it really helps sort of uh close the gap there

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so I mean just the big things to take away the things that I wanted and I think are really

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necessary for Noster is to do the outbox model which means that it doesn't matter what relay you

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post to the client can find it like if if Avi likes to post to his own relay because he got

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banned from the big one I should still be able to see Avi's notes like that's the whole point of

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Noster and virtually like none of the clients implemented it correctly so that always like

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really pissed me off um and then just other little things like not having gif keyboards like we didn't

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have gif keyboards for like two years it took me 15 minutes to build that in my client you know why

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do we have to wait years for it um yeah so it was basically just that you know i just wanted to build

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the client that worked exactly how i wanted it and we're getting pretty damn close with wisp i would

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say so again we don't have to single out specific clients here right it's this is not about that

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It's about what you're building.

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But I am curious to know,

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and the last time you were here on the show,

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UTX, you were talking about Haven, right?

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And you were talking about the three different relay types that you had.

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Why do you think it is that none of the clients ended up adopting it?

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What is the pull the clients have to the existing model of relays?

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um i i truly i truly don't have an answer for that because it's not it's not hard to do the

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inbox outbox model like maybe it seemed like that would be difficult or maybe it would be too slow

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like nostrils i mean that's another thing with ux like nostril like seems so broken all the time

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like slow and broken so maybe they thought it would be even slower and even more broken but i

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I hope people see with Wisp,

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but it actually makes it go faster.

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But yeah, I really don't know, Avi.

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00:19:45,936 --> 00:19:48,436
I don't have an answer for you on that.

207
00:19:50,096 --> 00:19:52,876
Maybe they just didn't think it was an important feature

208
00:19:52,876 --> 00:19:54,736
or, you know, end of the day,

209
00:19:54,796 --> 00:19:56,156
we don't have that many users.

210
00:19:56,396 --> 00:19:59,296
So, and we don't have a problem of relays banning people.

211
00:19:59,296 --> 00:20:01,316
So it's not like, quote unquote,

212
00:20:01,476 --> 00:20:04,676
maybe necessary to be able to index all small relays

213
00:20:04,676 --> 00:20:05,956
and maybe other things are important.

214
00:20:06,116 --> 00:20:08,096
But I mean, I don't know.

215
00:20:08,096 --> 00:20:09,016
I couldn't tell you, man.

216
00:20:10,436 --> 00:20:13,456
Yeah, I do wonder because in,

217
00:20:14,736 --> 00:20:19,256
you say what you will about the legacy social media world, right?

218
00:20:19,336 --> 00:20:24,936
There is a lot of these companies at least have the economic,

219
00:20:25,296 --> 00:20:29,476
you know, hand on the throat of,

220
00:20:29,616 --> 00:20:32,076
look, if I make my customers unhappy,

221
00:20:33,176 --> 00:20:35,536
then they'll go to the other one, right?

222
00:20:35,536 --> 00:20:37,576
They'll leave Facebook and they'll go to whatever.

223
00:20:38,096 --> 00:20:43,276
Twitter or they'll leave Twitter and they'll go to, what are the other ones?

224
00:20:43,396 --> 00:20:43,656
LinkedIn?

225
00:20:44,036 --> 00:20:44,556
Who knows?

226
00:20:44,656 --> 00:20:54,096
Anyway, but the point is that there is that sort of simmering fear that's there of the

227
00:20:54,096 --> 00:20:55,956
fear of attrition.

228
00:20:56,956 --> 00:21:02,996
And I wonder if that, because it doesn't seem like NOSTA clients have that, right?

229
00:21:03,036 --> 00:21:05,836
Because the gift keyboard is a great example, which you brought up.

230
00:21:06,296 --> 00:21:07,896
A lot of people have asked for it.

231
00:21:08,096 --> 00:21:10,196
And a lot of clients have not implemented it.

232
00:21:11,136 --> 00:21:13,636
Some saying it's not a priority.

233
00:21:13,836 --> 00:21:16,676
Others have said, well, how can you have a decentralized GIF keyboard?

234
00:21:16,736 --> 00:21:19,376
I don't want to use a centralized service for GIFs.

235
00:21:19,376 --> 00:21:25,116
I don't think either of those two pushbacks made any sense to me.

236
00:21:25,256 --> 00:21:28,236
First of all, there was a lot of demand for GIF keyboards.

237
00:21:28,956 --> 00:21:32,756
Secondly, if you're making the decentralization arguments, I mean, come on.

238
00:21:32,856 --> 00:21:36,296
We're talking about cartoons of frogs here, right?

239
00:21:37,156 --> 00:21:37,996
It's okay.

240
00:21:38,096 --> 00:21:42,576
It's okay to pull from a centralized repository for something like that.

241
00:21:42,696 --> 00:21:46,296
It does not, that does not need to pass the purity test, I don't think.

242
00:21:48,316 --> 00:21:53,996
So, you know, there was a lot of the clients were unresponsive to that.

243
00:21:54,216 --> 00:22:02,576
Ironically, not ironically, but interestingly, UTXO, just today Primal launched 3.0 on TestFlight,

244
00:22:02,876 --> 00:22:05,276
and they finally introduced the GIF keyboard.

245
00:22:05,276 --> 00:22:08,416
and I'm talking about as an iOS user

246
00:22:08,416 --> 00:22:12,196
until now, Nostur, shout out Fabian

247
00:22:12,196 --> 00:22:15,876
he had the GIF keyboard over a year and a half ago

248
00:22:15,876 --> 00:22:16,996
but that was the only one

249
00:22:16,996 --> 00:22:21,436
and I think as of today Primal is the next one on iOS at least

250
00:22:21,436 --> 00:22:23,756
to offer a GIF keyboard

251
00:22:23,756 --> 00:22:29,596
so that's one example of clients generally being unresponsive

252
00:22:29,596 --> 00:22:31,696
to customer requests

253
00:22:31,696 --> 00:22:34,676
and then from what you're saying

254
00:22:34,676 --> 00:22:40,036
It's not a particularly complicated switch to move to the outbox model.

255
00:22:40,696 --> 00:22:42,536
And yet clients haven't done it.

256
00:22:42,676 --> 00:22:49,276
Is it because there is no economic cost to attrition in Noster?

257
00:22:52,636 --> 00:22:54,916
I mean, there is an element of that.

258
00:22:55,136 --> 00:23:01,816
I mean, like, look, Noster, I think everybody who's on Noster can tell that it's not really growing, right?

259
00:23:01,816 --> 00:23:09,436
um but you know all the grants still keep flowing so it's like you know all these users are leaving

260
00:23:09,436 --> 00:23:14,136
and we don't have a good ux but everybody makes the same money like maybe there's a

261
00:23:14,136 --> 00:23:20,016
problem there i i don't know because yeah i mean they're either without the grants like the client

262
00:23:20,016 --> 00:23:30,196
developers are not making any money like the donations are lol um so yeah i mean that could

263
00:23:30,196 --> 00:23:35,136
be it but i don't i don't really think that that is it i don't know i think a big part of it just

264
00:23:35,136 --> 00:23:41,376
generally is also just bitcoiners like i can't tell you how many bitcoin like little little

265
00:23:41,376 --> 00:23:47,756
bicker arguments i get into on austere just like little sly comments about how there's nothing wrong

266
00:23:47,756 --> 00:23:52,236
with like the lightning ux like setting up a lightning node like oh that's so easy like bro

267
00:23:52,236 --> 00:23:58,836
no it's not like i i think bitcoiners are so accustomed to like really complicated ux that

268
00:23:58,836 --> 00:24:03,916
they don't see the problems on Noster. They think everything is just fine, but they don't,

269
00:24:03,916 --> 00:24:11,456
they don't like have good taste for slick and easy UX. You know, that's, I think that might

270
00:24:11,456 --> 00:24:16,556
be part of it as well. You know, just complacency with sort of janky UX.

271
00:24:17,756 --> 00:24:23,096
In fact, actually, it's a good point, UTX. So it might be even more perverse than that.

272
00:24:23,096 --> 00:24:24,976
and what I mean by that is

273
00:24:24,976 --> 00:24:26,916
there could be BitCorners

274
00:24:26,916 --> 00:24:28,056
that are so hardened

275
00:24:28,056 --> 00:24:30,716
by using

276
00:24:30,716 --> 00:24:32,676
by basically garbage UX

277
00:24:32,676 --> 00:24:34,556
it's almost as if a good UX

278
00:24:34,556 --> 00:24:36,036
is a sign of selling out

279
00:24:36,036 --> 00:24:37,376
like oh it's like

280
00:24:37,376 --> 00:24:40,736
I'm going to show up in dirty jeans

281
00:24:40,736 --> 00:24:43,136
and you know

282
00:24:43,136 --> 00:24:45,216
a t-shirt I haven't showered for a week

283
00:24:45,216 --> 00:24:46,656
and you know I haven't

284
00:24:46,656 --> 00:24:48,136
trimmed my beard in two weeks

285
00:24:48,136 --> 00:24:50,496
it's like yeah because that's what

286
00:24:50,496 --> 00:24:51,656
cypherpunks do right

287
00:24:51,656 --> 00:24:57,736
We need to look like we slept under a bridge for a week.

288
00:24:58,396 --> 00:25:01,636
And I think the same sort of goes with UX as well.

289
00:25:01,716 --> 00:25:05,096
It needs to look like it was something from the 1980s.

290
00:25:06,256 --> 00:25:12,936
And then we've somehow passed the test of it being a worthwhile app.

291
00:25:13,496 --> 00:25:15,776
I wonder if it's as perverse as that.

292
00:25:17,056 --> 00:25:19,756
I mean, I hope not.

293
00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:22,956
I hope we're not trying to go out of our way to look bad.

294
00:25:23,116 --> 00:25:25,756
I don't think that is the case, but it's just...

295
00:25:26,796 --> 00:25:32,796
Yeah, like Nofter, it is hard to have a nice decentralized way of doing things.

296
00:25:33,176 --> 00:25:35,716
That's, for example, why Primal went with a cache

297
00:25:35,716 --> 00:25:38,116
and why their search is better than most clients.

298
00:25:39,476 --> 00:25:43,736
Because it's really hard to actually pull from 90 different relays

299
00:25:43,736 --> 00:25:45,576
and rank them all and stuff.

300
00:25:45,656 --> 00:25:48,016
So there are trade-offs to UX.

301
00:25:49,756 --> 00:25:55,816
but yeah i couldn't uh i couldn't tell you why it's not improving because i i really feel like

302
00:25:55,816 --> 00:26:01,836
it should be improving a lot and at least on the android side like i didn't really see that

303
00:26:01,836 --> 00:26:09,416
anything i saw like degrading of ux over time well part of it could be

304
00:26:09,416 --> 00:26:17,816
um if you look at some of these centralized platforms like facebook twitter whatever right

305
00:26:17,816 --> 00:26:26,036
one advantage they have is they have large pools of capital primarily because of the centralization

306
00:26:26,036 --> 00:26:33,856
so they can coordinate design teams and you have a boss who tells you okay you're following here

307
00:26:33,856 --> 00:26:39,116
are the orders here's the plan here's what we're building go and build it right now there's several

308
00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:45,636
problems a whole set of problems that come with that centralization but one i think we have to

309
00:26:45,636 --> 00:26:52,156
admit one good thing that comes out of it is the ability to coordinate and execute on a plan,

310
00:26:52,156 --> 00:27:00,536
which gets infinitely more challenging in our world of messy and rough consensus and

311
00:27:01,456 --> 00:27:08,836
developers with strong opinions, strong and deferring opinions on just about every topic.

312
00:27:08,836 --> 00:27:18,896
Like, so how do you get coordination to do something as simple as figure out what the hell the end user wants and giving that to them?

313
00:27:20,376 --> 00:27:22,676
Oh, yeah, you got the good questions.

314
00:27:22,916 --> 00:27:24,416
I don't have the answers, man.

315
00:27:24,416 --> 00:27:32,276
Like, yeah, we're like four, five years into Nostra now, and we still have clients using like NIPO4 DMs.

316
00:27:32,516 --> 00:27:34,996
Like, we can't even agree on that.

317
00:27:35,036 --> 00:27:36,656
Now we have new protocols coming out.

318
00:27:36,776 --> 00:27:38,236
Like NIP17 wasn't good enough.

319
00:27:38,236 --> 00:27:53,252
now we doing the Marmot or the white noise or whatever And then are half the clients going to adopt that And then is a new one going to come out like i don know um hey man don knock nipple for i sent you my signal

320
00:27:53,252 --> 00:28:00,452
handle on nipple for so that we could coordinate this uh the show that's that is true it is useful

321
00:28:00,452 --> 00:28:06,592
for getting off of nostr dms and onto a real dm app it is useful at that i will give you that

322
00:28:06,592 --> 00:28:12,632
no but uh but you're right i mean it's just it's amazing to me that there are clients that still

323
00:28:12,632 --> 00:28:20,772
offer nipple for why do you think nip 17 wasn't good enough for so many well i mean it's like look

324
00:28:20,772 --> 00:28:26,012
it's not perfect because it doesn't have forward secrecy so people even though they can't see the

325
00:28:26,012 --> 00:28:30,592
contents of your dm or even necessarily like know who you're dming they still know that

326
00:28:30,592 --> 00:28:37,512
you have a bunch of dms if you're not using an auth relay and then auth relays are like now now

327
00:28:37,512 --> 00:28:41,152
you're already sort of breaking the ux right because you users have to know what that is

328
00:28:41,152 --> 00:28:49,712
um so i mean it like nip 17 is definitely not perfect for perfect anonymity um so it is possible

329
00:28:49,712 --> 00:28:56,032
that something better is available but i mean it is pretty good and like it's good enough for most

330
00:28:56,032 --> 00:29:00,052
people considering like you know i don't know what percentage is i'll just make it make it up you

331
00:29:00,052 --> 00:29:07,292
know like 90 of people use gmail and like whatsapp um so i don't think people like care about having

332
00:29:07,292 --> 00:29:13,432
such high degrees of privacy and the ones that do they can just take the step of using a better

333
00:29:13,432 --> 00:29:19,912
relay and then they basically get their perfect privacy um so it does work on nip 17 depending on

334
00:29:19,912 --> 00:29:25,592
how hardcore you want to be about it um but for the regular for the average user that you know

335
00:29:25,592 --> 00:29:30,992
just wants to, I mean, I don't know what people are DMing about on Noster, but, you know, NIP 17

336
00:29:30,992 --> 00:29:35,932
already offers like pretty strong privacy protection, even though like I'm certain there,

337
00:29:36,292 --> 00:29:41,152
there's better ways. And I haven't looked deeply enough at the, at white noise. I'm,

338
00:29:41,392 --> 00:29:46,272
I'll take their word for it. It's probably, it probably solves that problem, but it also creates

339
00:29:46,272 --> 00:29:53,152
a whole new problem, which is, you know, like now we have bifurcated clients, um, and just like

340
00:29:53,152 --> 00:29:57,812
disjointed UX. So yeah, I mean, I don't know. I'm just rambling, but I don't know the answers here,

341
00:29:57,892 --> 00:30:04,312
Avi. Yeah, I think on the point of White Noise, I tried their latest release. It's getting more

342
00:30:04,312 --> 00:30:09,232
and more stable. I think the first release barely worked, which is, you know, it's understandable,

343
00:30:09,392 --> 00:30:13,692
right? They're trying to solve a very difficult problem. And again, you're right. I'm not an

344
00:30:13,692 --> 00:30:21,532
expert on the cryptography for direct messages. So I'm going to take their word for it, guys like

345
00:30:21,532 --> 00:30:23,652
Max Hillebrand and Jeff G are involved,

346
00:30:24,152 --> 00:30:25,152
who I believe are good actors.

347
00:30:25,572 --> 00:30:26,272
So you know what?

348
00:30:26,472 --> 00:30:27,832
It's like, look, I can't go around

349
00:30:27,832 --> 00:30:29,932
verifying every single thing I see.

350
00:30:30,032 --> 00:30:31,872
At some point, I have to outsource

351
00:30:31,872 --> 00:30:32,992
some level of trust.

352
00:30:34,292 --> 00:30:38,232
So no concerns for me on the algorithm itself.

353
00:30:38,232 --> 00:30:43,352
And then I do see the progress on the UX.

354
00:30:43,712 --> 00:30:46,772
I just started using White Nights a week ago.

355
00:30:47,112 --> 00:30:50,412
I would rather upgrade it to the latest release.

356
00:30:50,412 --> 00:30:54,832
using a burner, NSEC, and it seems okay.

357
00:30:55,892 --> 00:30:58,392
But I think you hit the nail on the head.

358
00:30:58,532 --> 00:31:01,332
The biggest problem is it breaks interoperability, right?

359
00:31:01,432 --> 00:31:03,472
If everyone needs to be on white noise

360
00:31:03,472 --> 00:31:05,792
with their actual NPUB

361
00:31:05,792 --> 00:31:11,972
and then every single client that offers DMs,

362
00:31:11,972 --> 00:31:17,332
whether explicitly on the main screen

363
00:31:17,332 --> 00:31:19,972
or somewhat hidden the way Primal

364
00:31:19,972 --> 00:31:21,252
and some of the other clients do it

365
00:31:21,252 --> 00:31:24,912
where you need to click a menu button

366
00:31:24,912 --> 00:31:26,372
for the DMs to show up.

367
00:31:26,892 --> 00:31:27,792
Whatever it is, right?

368
00:31:28,332 --> 00:31:29,892
Those have to be gutted out.

369
00:31:30,112 --> 00:31:31,832
There's NIPO4s or NIP17,

370
00:31:32,212 --> 00:31:34,592
like Nosterna does NIP17.

371
00:31:35,532 --> 00:31:36,972
You have to gut those out

372
00:31:36,972 --> 00:31:39,972
and replace it with the Marmot implementation.

373
00:31:40,652 --> 00:31:41,872
It won't be White Noise, obviously.

374
00:31:41,972 --> 00:31:45,132
White Noise is the reference client

375
00:31:45,132 --> 00:31:46,332
for the Marmot protocol.

376
00:31:48,132 --> 00:31:49,912
And this is going to break

377
00:31:49,912 --> 00:32:01,152
so much stuff. The UX is going to be atrocious. And I'm hoping that once Marmot and White Noise

378
00:32:01,152 --> 00:32:08,792
are at a really good UX and stability and all of that back and front and all look good,

379
00:32:08,992 --> 00:32:15,532
we just bite the bullet, go through three months of absolute chaos, and then emerge from it with

380
00:32:15,532 --> 00:32:18,992
some kind of interoperability. I suspect there will be pain.

381
00:32:19,912 --> 00:32:30,792
yeah i mean if it if it works and it's relatively easy for client developers to put it in um then

382
00:32:30,792 --> 00:32:35,972
yeah we should be open to it because because here's here's like the the big problem is if you

383
00:32:35,972 --> 00:32:41,072
just like sort of do a cutoff then like users all lose their dms and we don't know how important

384
00:32:41,072 --> 00:32:45,892
those dms are to them you know like that's a big problem but it's also a problem to keep

385
00:32:45,892 --> 00:32:50,372
going backwards compatibility you know like clients are already having to do this where

386
00:32:50,372 --> 00:32:58,172
they have to support both nip 04 and nip 17 um just because like we figured it out later a better

387
00:32:58,172 --> 00:33:03,012
way and then now we might add a completely different protocol on top of that so now it's

388
00:33:03,012 --> 00:33:07,252
like to have a working dm client that's interoperable with everything you need three

389
00:33:07,252 --> 00:33:12,152
backwards compatible implementations like that's you're basically like that's basically how we do

390
00:33:12,152 --> 00:33:15,712
bitcoin you know where it's just like all these soft works you gotta keep remembering and

391
00:33:15,712 --> 00:33:21,232
yeah i don't know what the answer is like i did a hard cut off for nipple fours like last year i

392
00:33:21,232 --> 00:33:27,492
took the stance that none of my realized what would accept nipple four it's just too it's too

393
00:33:27,492 --> 00:33:35,212
excessively bad for privacy that i just rejected all of them um but that also didn't work like all

394
00:33:35,212 --> 00:33:42,072
that all that happened was we just broke the ux worse and no domus user was able to message me or

395
00:33:42,072 --> 00:33:49,172
any of my users so just everything is broke more so yeah i don't i don't know man i've i mean

396
00:33:49,172 --> 00:33:57,112
the state of dms on nostra is just abject right now right like i said i still use nipo4 to exchange

397
00:33:57,112 --> 00:34:03,452
to give people my signal handle i need to schedule like a bunch of shows and sometimes the only way

398
00:34:03,452 --> 00:34:09,072
i can get hold of them is on nostra not everyone's on nip 17 so i have to use one client

399
00:34:09,072 --> 00:34:13,092
one or two clients for NIPO 4.

400
00:34:13,672 --> 00:34:16,052
Because I have no way of knowing

401
00:34:16,052 --> 00:34:18,772
whether the person I'm sending the message to

402
00:34:18,772 --> 00:34:21,172
is using a client that accepts NIP 17.

403
00:34:22,432 --> 00:34:25,612
If it does and they reply using a NIP 17 DM,

404
00:34:25,792 --> 00:34:27,052
then I have to go to NoStir,

405
00:34:27,672 --> 00:34:30,452
which is the only iOS client that I'm aware of

406
00:34:30,452 --> 00:34:35,032
that's compatible with NIP 17.

407
00:34:35,932 --> 00:34:37,852
And then send them a message there,

408
00:34:37,852 --> 00:34:44,332
then someone else replies on the nipple for client it is just this is horrible right so we

409
00:34:44,332 --> 00:34:50,652
we need to get out of this situation real fast yeah i agree it's bad it's real bad

410
00:34:50,652 --> 00:34:57,132
yeah but there are i mean look i think dms have been probably the weakest link

411
00:34:57,132 --> 00:35:04,792
on nosto uh let's talk about what you're doing uh with the nosto band replacement by the way do

412
00:35:04,792 --> 00:35:13,452
you know what why did nostoban suddenly just die do you know what happened um i i don't know for

413
00:35:13,452 --> 00:35:22,892
sure but i know like if like i know what it's like to just like run such a site for so long

414
00:35:22,892 --> 00:35:28,452
like a site like that is is expensive you know like it's gonna it's already costing me not like

415
00:35:28,452 --> 00:35:35,412
a lot but just enough that it nags you that you you stand the site up you spend all this time

416
00:35:35,412 --> 00:35:39,692
building it you spend all this money hosting it and then there's like maybe some bugs in it or it

417
00:35:39,692 --> 00:35:44,272
goes down and then everyone just complains and then you know it's just like after some time

418
00:35:44,272 --> 00:35:48,292
you're just like well what's even the point of this anymore and you just kind of just walk away

419
00:35:48,292 --> 00:35:54,432
from it um so i don't know if that's what happened but if that is what happened i wouldn't be

420
00:35:54,432 --> 00:35:59,192
surprised because like before it died it was already like on shaky ground it was like not

421
00:35:59,192 --> 00:36:02,912
working all the time people were getting upset with it and then eventually just died and vanished

422
00:36:02,912 --> 00:36:09,812
right so that's my speculation as to what happened but i don't know i never talked to the guy about

423
00:36:09,812 --> 00:36:16,192
it so i'm not sure but that would be my guess and this is the thing with anyone building a common

424
00:36:16,192 --> 00:36:21,692
some kind of commons on nostril now you're not going to make money off of it unless someone

425
00:36:21,692 --> 00:36:24,092
miraculously comes up with a new revenue model.

426
00:36:25,172 --> 00:36:28,252
Another guy I feel really sorry for is Karen,

427
00:36:28,952 --> 00:36:30,732
who's built Zap.Stream.

428
00:36:30,912 --> 00:36:32,452
And he's come on the show and he said,

429
00:36:32,532 --> 00:36:33,852
look, if I didn't have a grant,

430
00:36:33,992 --> 00:36:34,932
none of this would have existed.

431
00:36:35,252 --> 00:36:37,372
None of this stuff would have been possible.

432
00:36:37,652 --> 00:36:40,012
The only way I could do it is because of grant money.

433
00:36:40,712 --> 00:36:44,152
And I suspect that's true of a commons

434
00:36:44,152 --> 00:36:46,572
like Nostradot banned as well.

435
00:36:46,572 --> 00:36:49,232
I don't think he'd cracked the revenue model.

436
00:36:49,372 --> 00:36:50,772
I know he was trying to do some premium.

437
00:36:51,692 --> 00:36:58,172
pricing or whatever i saw some options to upgrade no one who no one pays on nostor this is the other

438
00:36:58,172 --> 00:37:05,792
thing right like we all talk about value for value barely anyone uh everyone wants to take stuff for

439
00:37:05,792 --> 00:37:13,832
free right and it's a natural human uh instinct to try and get away with um without having to pay

440
00:37:13,832 --> 00:37:20,772
for something but that is i think is something that uh plagues nostor so no one wants to play

441
00:37:20,772 --> 00:37:26,932
want to use the really good commons infrastructure like Nostoban for stats or what have you,

442
00:37:27,452 --> 00:37:33,032
but then not necessarily return the value. And the only way things like that can survive

443
00:37:33,032 --> 00:37:40,652
is through grant money as a result. So do you foresee that? So before we talk about what you're

444
00:37:40,652 --> 00:37:45,992
building as the Nostoban replacement, do you foresee that as a problem for any of the things

445
00:37:45,992 --> 00:37:52,032
you're building, which is if you can't crack the revenue model, then it's down to ground money.

446
00:37:52,232 --> 00:37:55,512
And at some point you'll have to walk away from that as well.

447
00:37:58,392 --> 00:38:04,412
Yeah, I'm not, I'm not sure. It's tough. Like, so for me, I'm sort of,

448
00:38:05,832 --> 00:38:11,132
I don't, retired is really the wrong word to use. Like, cause I, I have other apps. Like I,

449
00:38:11,132 --> 00:38:18,352
I have other apps that I own that aren't Noster or Bitcoin related, you know, like you see what I build on Noster.

450
00:38:18,532 --> 00:38:20,572
Like I have Normie stuff that I built, too.

451
00:38:21,972 --> 00:38:25,112
So I don't have to like go nine to five.

452
00:38:25,312 --> 00:38:33,272
So I'm able to like spend my time working on Noster and not I don't need Noster to pay me anything to work on these projects.

453
00:38:33,272 --> 00:38:38,712
So for for me, I think it's a little bit maybe different than a lot of other people.

454
00:38:38,712 --> 00:38:43,132
I know some of the other devs are in another situation that I'm not in where they're pretty

455
00:38:43,132 --> 00:38:49,452
early Bitcoiners and they also don't need the money. So I don't, I don't think for sure that

456
00:38:49,452 --> 00:38:56,292
like you have to crack some kind of revenue model to make it work. Um, and sort of like circling

457
00:38:56,292 --> 00:39:01,552
back to the central, you know, it takes someone like Twitter or Facebook, they like have all of

458
00:39:01,552 --> 00:39:08,252
this money, but if we have, you know, like, let's just say we had a thousand relay runners. I know

459
00:39:08,252 --> 00:39:12,412
there's over a thousand relays but i'm not sure that we have a thousand relay runners but they're

460
00:39:12,412 --> 00:39:17,092
all spending you know 20 bucks a month on something like we have twenty thousand dollar a month

461
00:39:17,092 --> 00:39:24,912
infrastructure like that's actually very strong infrastructure that can handle a lot um so we

462
00:39:24,912 --> 00:39:33,512
it's not like we're completely like helpless and at the mercy you know it doesn't take a lot of

463
00:39:33,512 --> 00:39:39,152
money from like individual developers to get it going and like i could just be transparent like to

464
00:39:39,152 --> 00:39:46,232
to host something like nostor band like my version probably costs like 90 a month you know like that's

465
00:39:46,232 --> 00:39:52,492
not an incredible amount of money like the the community should be able to come together and

466
00:39:52,492 --> 00:39:58,592
you know put together 90 bucks you know and i i don't i think that is achievable and i i have had

467
00:39:58,592 --> 00:40:04,652
some notes well not some i'll just say one note where i actually did ask for donations and i got

468
00:40:04,652 --> 00:40:10,592
like five million sets you know like that's oh wow that's starting to get good where it like makes a

469
00:40:10,592 --> 00:40:16,772
difference you know like regular day-to-day zapping like you let's say a good note gets 10 000 sets

470
00:40:16,772 --> 00:40:20,492
like okay that's great and everything but that's like six dollars you know like that's not doing

471
00:40:20,492 --> 00:40:25,412
anything uh but if you're getting into the millions of sets you know that could pay for a year of

472
00:40:25,412 --> 00:40:28,452
hosting like that makes a difference so i think it is possible

473
00:40:28,452 --> 00:40:40,032
okay well i hope you're right um so let's talk about this uh well when is it ready to go or

474
00:40:40,032 --> 00:40:48,092
still some time away um it's like half ready to go it's like pretty much all the functionality is

475
00:40:48,092 --> 00:40:54,992
there but it's just crawling all the old notes so it's missing a lot of older stuff but for newer

476
00:40:54,992 --> 00:41:00,432
stuff it's pretty much working and ready to go i think but i mean it's only a couple of days old

477
00:41:00,432 --> 00:41:06,132
so i'm sure i will find some issues and maybe potentially have to like nuke it and rebuild it

478
00:41:06,132 --> 00:41:11,172
so like those things are still in the cards but so far it's working pretty well and like if you're

479
00:41:11,172 --> 00:41:18,152
a wisp user and you see the like trending feeds or like how search works now because that's another

480
00:41:18,152 --> 00:41:21,812
reason like why i wanted to build it like i don't know if you have this problem on ios but like

481
00:41:21,812 --> 00:41:29,172
search also doesn't work on nostr um which is also like not that part of a problem to solve

482
00:41:29,172 --> 00:41:34,452
we just you know it's just like all the relay implementations don't really have a good search

483
00:41:34,452 --> 00:41:45,088
because relay operators don really know what client developers need and vice versa So yeah part of it is you know working on that piece

484
00:41:45,248 --> 00:41:48,688
So like search is ready and like new trending and that kind of stuff,

485
00:41:48,808 --> 00:41:50,008
but not the old notes.

486
00:41:52,008 --> 00:41:56,728
Yeah, search is a problem, certainly on iOS.

487
00:41:56,728 --> 00:42:02,808
I think the closest you get is you need some kind of caching service,

488
00:42:03,388 --> 00:42:04,268
just to simplify.

489
00:42:04,268 --> 00:42:09,188
I'm saying you need one way of doing it is with the caching service, right?

490
00:42:09,248 --> 00:42:11,908
And Primal's search is probably one of the better ones.

491
00:42:12,208 --> 00:42:13,468
But even that misses a lot.

492
00:42:13,628 --> 00:42:16,128
Like I'm searching for stuff that I know exists.

493
00:42:16,468 --> 00:42:20,788
I just need to find it on the timeline and it doesn't come up on Primal

494
00:42:20,788 --> 00:42:23,568
despite the caching service existing.

495
00:42:23,748 --> 00:42:29,448
And I think Nostraband used a caching service too, if I'm not mistaken.

496
00:42:29,548 --> 00:42:31,408
I actually never looked at the back end.

497
00:42:31,408 --> 00:42:36,848
yeah or just like even this term you know caching service like nostor band it was saving all the

498
00:42:36,848 --> 00:42:44,608
notes in a database so they could just build a nice search endpoint for nostor clients um

499
00:42:44,608 --> 00:42:52,588
you know like that is that's basically how a good search has to work like just just a quick example

500
00:42:52,588 --> 00:42:58,788
you know like if you're let's say you search for just bitcoin you know what should what should the

501
00:42:58,788 --> 00:43:03,228
search give you you know should it just give you the most recent person who typed bitcoin like maybe

502
00:43:03,228 --> 00:43:09,368
it was a bot or a spammer or something you know um it should be it should work similar to how

503
00:43:09,368 --> 00:43:15,228
google search works you know like google search works because other um people are like linking

504
00:43:15,228 --> 00:43:20,168
to that website which builds authority it builds page rank and they have an algorithm for that so

505
00:43:20,168 --> 00:43:24,668
a noster search should work like that too if i search for bitcoin it should probably give me

506
00:43:24,668 --> 00:43:30,648
posts that are combined with like being recent also have a lot of likes or have a lot of zaps or

507
00:43:30,648 --> 00:43:35,948
were posted by like a credible user not like a bot with no followers like all of those

508
00:43:35,948 --> 00:43:41,528
things need to be taken into account and the way we do it right now is we're just like okay put

509
00:43:41,528 --> 00:43:48,428
four search dm relays in just search all of them and spit out the notes chronologically like that

510
00:43:48,428 --> 00:43:53,968
is a terrible search experience and we're basically still doing that today you know it's so bad

511
00:43:53,968 --> 00:44:04,028
mm-hmm how would wisp doesn't so how yeah how does wisp do search uh so we just used this new

512
00:44:04,028 --> 00:44:11,308
um like nostor band replacement that i use uh that i built and the first thing like the first

513
00:44:11,308 --> 00:44:16,028
core features that i built were really to make clients better so the first one was search

514
00:44:16,028 --> 00:44:23,228
and the next one was having trending relay feeds um so you don't have like right now primal is like

515
00:44:23,228 --> 00:44:28,008
one of the only clients that have trending because they have their own like proprietary thing but

516
00:44:28,008 --> 00:44:32,388
other clients can't like put the trending in without doing like this custom dvm and all sorts

517
00:44:32,388 --> 00:44:39,248
of stuff so um that's why like on this new nostor band thing that i'm building we have relay feed

518
00:44:39,248 --> 00:44:43,888
so anything that we say is trending on the website you can also put that in any client just by

519
00:44:43,888 --> 00:44:44,968
connecting to the relay.

520
00:44:47,748 --> 00:44:48,348
Right.

521
00:44:49,208 --> 00:44:59,028
I think we, you know, there need to be multiple ways of looking at trending and the user should

522
00:44:59,028 --> 00:45:01,708
be able to choose that, right?

523
00:45:03,008 --> 00:45:11,088
And I think that'll go a long way in, if a user has access to a trending feed of their

524
00:45:11,088 --> 00:45:19,088
choice. It'll go a long way in solving some of the apathy we're seeing, some of the disillusionment

525
00:45:19,088 --> 00:45:26,028
that I'm seeing certainly in the last five or six months. Yes, it coincides with the Bitcoin

526
00:45:26,028 --> 00:45:33,048
bear market, but just the general engagement experience on Nostra has been particularly

527
00:45:33,048 --> 00:45:35,108
really great in the last few months.

528
00:45:35,668 --> 00:45:39,428
And I suspect if users start seeing feeds

529
00:45:39,428 --> 00:45:41,128
that are relevant to them,

530
00:45:41,828 --> 00:45:42,708
that they've chosen,

531
00:45:42,708 --> 00:45:44,888
as opposed to like this firehose

532
00:45:44,888 --> 00:45:46,328
of a chronological feed,

533
00:45:47,128 --> 00:45:50,868
I suspect the quality of engagement will improve.

534
00:45:53,028 --> 00:45:55,828
Yeah, I mean, a better algorithm,

535
00:45:56,088 --> 00:45:58,028
just more, just anything,

536
00:45:58,168 --> 00:46:00,268
like being able to browse relay feeds,

537
00:46:00,388 --> 00:46:02,048
having good like hashtag feeds,

538
00:46:02,048 --> 00:46:09,828
having a good search like just any any kind of feed is better than just having the one single

539
00:46:09,828 --> 00:46:15,288
follow only feed that is missing half the notes because they're not outboxing and

540
00:46:15,288 --> 00:46:22,568
yeah like there's just so much wrong with how the majority of the ux in nostor has been

541
00:46:22,568 --> 00:46:28,688
up until now that like i completely agree that just you know stale feeds is a huge part of it

542
00:46:28,688 --> 00:46:35,168
just seeing the same shit over and over again um is a huge part of it and you'd be surprised how

543
00:46:35,168 --> 00:46:41,408
much content is actually on nostr from people you don't follow um that you can find with a good

544
00:46:41,408 --> 00:46:50,688
hashtag search you know like um you know bookster is a is a great example of one you know like there's

545
00:46:50,688 --> 00:46:56,028
i look at bookster and there are pretty much nobody on here i follow but these are

546
00:46:56,028 --> 00:47:00,648
all people posting stuff that I'm actually interested in. And I had no idea that any

547
00:47:00,648 --> 00:47:07,248
of these people existed. So like going out of your way to also like curate your feed,

548
00:47:07,308 --> 00:47:11,948
of course, like having a client that makes it easy for you is important. But if we could just

549
00:47:11,948 --> 00:47:16,028
break this paradigm, like I hear it all so much like, oh, the reason why Nostra is different is

550
00:47:16,028 --> 00:47:21,688
because we only have one feed. Like that's so stupid. Like we can have unlimited feeds here.

551
00:47:21,688 --> 00:47:28,428
we shouldn't hang our hat on like the worst one uh yeah that's that's my opinion on it at least

552
00:47:28,428 --> 00:47:36,148
i think the chronological the enchantment with the chronological feed that ship has sailed for me i

553
00:47:36,148 --> 00:47:41,768
did like it in the beginning i'm not going to lie utx coming from the twitter world where you've

554
00:47:41,768 --> 00:47:49,028
been caught you know you're being manipulated by the algorithm and i guess there was no exit at

555
00:47:49,028 --> 00:47:55,088
the time. This was pre-NOSTA. So when NOSTA shows up, it's like, ah, finally a stream of

556
00:47:55,088 --> 00:48:01,448
consciousness, a global fire hose. I want this. I don't want whatever it is that Twitter's giving me.

557
00:48:02,168 --> 00:48:09,748
But, you know, a couple of years in, or three years in now, and with the general apathy,

558
00:48:09,948 --> 00:48:15,948
the degradation and quality of discourse and so on that, you can call it a temporary blip on NOSTA,

559
00:48:15,948 --> 00:48:16,868
or whatever it is, right?

560
00:48:16,928 --> 00:48:19,488
But just having experienced it in the last few months,

561
00:48:19,528 --> 00:48:21,708
I think I'm at the point where I'm like,

562
00:48:21,768 --> 00:48:27,928
okay, let's actually seriously start looking into feeds.

563
00:48:28,648 --> 00:48:30,748
It could be based on your web of trust.

564
00:48:30,928 --> 00:48:33,168
You could look for any kinds of signals.

565
00:48:33,948 --> 00:48:36,488
Hashtag is the easiest one to do, right?

566
00:48:36,488 --> 00:48:41,468
Use simple text tag that you filter by,

567
00:48:41,608 --> 00:48:45,368
but there are other signals that you can look for as well

568
00:48:45,368 --> 00:48:47,388
with emergent signals in the network

569
00:48:47,388 --> 00:48:50,468
and try and curate your timeline.

570
00:48:50,888 --> 00:48:52,868
It's time. It's time we did that.

571
00:48:54,148 --> 00:48:56,528
Yeah, so download WISP because WISP has lots of feeds.

572
00:48:56,648 --> 00:48:57,668
Okay, everyone? Do it.

573
00:48:58,408 --> 00:49:01,908
So that brings me to the next question then, UTXO.

574
00:49:01,908 --> 00:49:07,528
When WISP desktop or WISP web, I should say?

575
00:49:09,268 --> 00:49:09,988
Never.

576
00:49:10,508 --> 00:49:15,048
It's only ever always going to be an Android client.

577
00:49:15,368 --> 00:49:22,028
uh i'm sorry but that's how that's why it's so fast like i i mean that's the main thing just

578
00:49:22,028 --> 00:49:28,928
don't don't take my word for it ask the users like what they think um the real reason why

579
00:49:28,928 --> 00:49:34,248
wisp is good is because it's fast and if i just try to like port it into for sure a browser will

580
00:49:34,248 --> 00:49:41,688
never be as fast um maybe ios can but i don't really know ios and then i don't know if it will

581
00:49:41,688 --> 00:49:48,428
be approved in app store and yeah i just don't know so for me it's it's android and end of the

582
00:49:48,428 --> 00:49:54,968
day like i really built it for myself you know i'm just so happy to share it um but i'm an android

583
00:49:54,968 --> 00:50:03,208
user so it's my android client and that's what it will always be what do you do about the wallet

584
00:50:03,208 --> 00:50:12,208
lightning wallet uh so two things so the the built-in whitening lightning wallet is nwc only

585
00:50:12,208 --> 00:50:21,028
um so you you must use nwc to use wisp you can't do that clunky ux where you like click it and then

586
00:50:21,028 --> 00:50:25,428
like open your other wallet and then like go back to the app like we don't do that because that's so

587
00:50:25,428 --> 00:50:33,888
ugly um so you must use nwc we have a few wallets that we recommend like rizful um and mini bits

588
00:50:33,888 --> 00:50:38,888
and for the base they can put like get albi on their own node and it will work with that

589
00:50:38,888 --> 00:50:46,088
um so that's how it currently works but we will shortly also put the breeze spark support so

590
00:50:46,088 --> 00:50:52,368
people can use like the spark wallet which is custodial i know a lot of people like to say it's

591
00:50:52,368 --> 00:50:56,388
It's not custody, but it is custody, just like using Rizvul is.

592
00:50:57,128 --> 00:50:59,508
So we're going to be adding support to that soon.

593
00:50:59,828 --> 00:51:00,708
Shout out Daniel.

594
00:51:00,768 --> 00:51:02,888
If he's listening, he's working on that PR right now.

595
00:51:03,968 --> 00:51:04,088
Yeah.

596
00:51:04,448 --> 00:51:10,928
Daniel has been, the Daniel, formerly known as Maybe Daniel,

597
00:51:11,568 --> 00:51:17,048
has done stellar work on Vibe coding these wallet implementations.

598
00:51:17,168 --> 00:51:18,828
I mean, he's been doing it for the past year.

599
00:51:18,828 --> 00:51:20,768
He has this thing called Sats Factory.

600
00:51:20,768 --> 00:51:28,388
We're trying to get merchants onboarded in New York for all places with its crazy regulations.

601
00:51:29,988 --> 00:51:33,128
So that's great to hear that you guys are working together on that.

602
00:51:33,928 --> 00:51:35,148
So it's NWC only.

603
00:51:35,388 --> 00:51:37,288
How many are there, right?

604
00:51:37,368 --> 00:51:43,108
So really the idea of NWC is you have an app that has essentially an open socket.

605
00:51:43,568 --> 00:51:47,228
You have a lightning wallet that has the plug, right?

606
00:51:47,228 --> 00:51:51,448
and then you go to your app like Wisp

607
00:51:51,448 --> 00:51:53,868
and you plug the plug into the socket

608
00:51:53,868 --> 00:51:58,108
and you've just brought your own Lightning wallet to a new app.

609
00:51:58,368 --> 00:52:02,408
It's a really neat way of doing things.

610
00:52:02,548 --> 00:52:06,688
Now, the problem is in an ideal world,

611
00:52:07,108 --> 00:52:09,568
you want a lot of these plugs, right?

612
00:52:09,608 --> 00:52:12,868
A lot of these wallets available that you can choose from

613
00:52:12,868 --> 00:52:16,488
and plug into any app you want.

614
00:52:17,228 --> 00:52:21,488
but I don't think that number is very large, right?

615
00:52:21,668 --> 00:52:23,948
You, I think, just listed those off.

616
00:52:24,668 --> 00:52:28,808
It's getAlbi, and getAlbi is harder

617
00:52:28,808 --> 00:52:30,188
because you have to run your own node

618
00:52:30,188 --> 00:52:31,928
and have Albi Hub.

619
00:52:32,128 --> 00:52:34,528
I either pay Albi to do it or you could do it.

620
00:52:35,228 --> 00:52:38,508
So there's Albi's one, Rizful,

621
00:52:38,628 --> 00:52:40,628
which I've heard of, I've never used.

622
00:52:41,448 --> 00:52:43,168
Koinos was another one,

623
00:52:43,248 --> 00:52:44,708
but they had some issues recently,

624
00:52:44,828 --> 00:52:45,568
if I'm not mistaken.

625
00:52:45,568 --> 00:52:55,488
and that's about it isn't it um there's a couple more like um cashew.me has it mini bits has it

626
00:52:55,488 --> 00:53:04,628
um i think there are a couple of other ones but yeah i i should add to that like if you go with the

627
00:53:04,628 --> 00:53:10,868
spark wallet you don't need to do any sort of nwc it's just like if the client implemented it

628
00:53:10,868 --> 00:53:17,628
correctly it works the same as nwc where it's just like the wallet is on your phone um so that

629
00:53:17,628 --> 00:53:22,788
that will work as well but yeah i mean there's not a ton of them but there there are enough to serve

630
00:53:22,788 --> 00:53:26,908
nasa users you know like there are plenty of working ones out there it's not like we have zero

631
00:53:26,908 --> 00:53:35,088
so five is good enough for the 20 users we have you know right and i so i just realized uh speaking

632
00:53:35,088 --> 00:53:36,708
of interoperability breaking.

633
00:53:37,708 --> 00:53:40,628
I went to another Zapstream,

634
00:53:41,008 --> 00:53:42,328
or rather streaming client,

635
00:53:42,328 --> 00:53:46,048
and I'm seeing a bunch of chat messages

636
00:53:46,048 --> 00:53:47,008
that I've missed.

637
00:53:47,368 --> 00:53:49,048
Too many to catch up from the beginning,

638
00:53:49,228 --> 00:53:50,268
but towards the end,

639
00:53:50,368 --> 00:53:51,188
you have folks saying,

640
00:53:51,368 --> 00:53:52,288
Wisp and Rispel.

641
00:53:52,688 --> 00:53:54,608
That's Mark saying that.

642
00:53:54,748 --> 00:53:56,568
And then Condelorian said,

643
00:53:56,928 --> 00:53:57,448
Blitz.

644
00:53:58,548 --> 00:54:00,328
Globe 99 is saying Koinos.

645
00:54:02,728 --> 00:54:04,788
Okay, I'll take his word for it.

646
00:54:05,088 --> 00:54:08,888
Last I heard, they had, wasn't there some issue, UTXO, do you remember?

647
00:54:09,628 --> 00:54:12,688
CoinOS has been hacked like five times.

648
00:54:12,948 --> 00:54:13,128
Yeah.

649
00:54:13,668 --> 00:54:15,308
I mean, like, look, I don't want to throw shade.

650
00:54:15,468 --> 00:54:19,928
He's providing a great service to the users, but it's not known for reliability.

651
00:54:20,248 --> 00:54:20,968
Let's just say that.

652
00:54:22,208 --> 00:54:22,648
Yeah.

653
00:54:25,528 --> 00:54:33,068
So, okay, let's talk about Spark because that is another topic that divides people.

654
00:54:33,068 --> 00:54:42,428
So if you look at the, you know those matrices that they do where they have, so here, I'm going to do four quadrants, okay?

655
00:54:45,188 --> 00:54:50,248
So the Y axis is custodial.

656
00:54:50,668 --> 00:54:53,248
So bottom is custodial, top is non-custodial.

657
00:54:53,908 --> 00:55:00,188
The X axis is left is KYC, right is no KYC, okay?

658
00:55:00,868 --> 00:55:01,088
Okay.

659
00:55:01,168 --> 00:55:04,908
Top left quadrant, no KYC, non-custodial.

660
00:55:05,508 --> 00:55:08,348
That is the ideal, correct?

661
00:55:08,528 --> 00:55:08,808
Yes.

662
00:55:08,928 --> 00:55:09,568
We want that.

663
00:55:10,728 --> 00:55:15,608
Now, and then the bottom right quadrant is custodial KYC.

664
00:55:15,608 --> 00:55:20,048
That is, you might as well just use Visa or MasterCard at that point.

665
00:55:20,808 --> 00:55:24,408
So now the question is, you have the other two quadrants, right?

666
00:55:24,408 --> 00:55:26,628
top right and bottom left,

667
00:55:26,768 --> 00:55:33,208
which is custodial non-KYC or non-COVID.

668
00:55:33,264 --> 00:55:34,644
Custodial KYC.

669
00:55:35,264 --> 00:55:35,844
Which one would...

670
00:55:35,844 --> 00:55:39,764
Spark, I believe, is custodial non-KYC, right?

671
00:55:39,864 --> 00:55:41,324
So it sits in the top right.

672
00:55:42,164 --> 00:55:43,244
For now it is.

673
00:55:44,184 --> 00:55:44,464
Okay.

674
00:55:46,564 --> 00:55:49,584
Of those two quadrants, top right and bottom left,

675
00:55:49,684 --> 00:55:50,584
which one would you pick?

676
00:55:51,444 --> 00:55:53,624
Definitely no KYC custody.

677
00:55:55,284 --> 00:55:56,804
Yeah, no KYC.

678
00:55:57,104 --> 00:55:59,744
The privacy part is the most important to me.

679
00:55:59,744 --> 00:56:06,064
um you know like i should be able to just spin up an end pub or give my agent a wallet or whatever

680
00:56:06,064 --> 00:56:13,964
and not have to go through kyc if if i'm getting like the the speed and reliability of somebody

681
00:56:13,964 --> 00:56:19,624
else hosting the node and the trade-off is i have to trust them with my 21 sat zap i think that's a

682
00:56:19,624 --> 00:56:24,984
perfect trade-off to make given the situation that we're in right now and like the way lightning

683
00:56:24,984 --> 00:56:31,264
works um you know like i'm already kind of skeptical skeptical about lightning as a solution

684
00:56:31,264 --> 00:56:35,724
generally speaking i mean that's i don't really want to open that can of worms so let's just say

685
00:56:35,724 --> 00:56:41,244
we have to use lightning i mean we i think we have to x we have to expect that there's going

686
00:56:41,244 --> 00:56:47,964
to be a trust trade-off given the complexity of running lightning um even if like i would say the

687
00:56:47,964 --> 00:56:56,024
best the best non-custodial ux is the way zeus does it with their embedded lightning nodes um

688
00:56:56,024 --> 00:57:02,604
right on the phone like so sick like i love zeus zeus is what i use for my nodes um but like if

689
00:57:02,604 --> 00:57:07,424
you're a brand new user you've never used bitcoin before like if you want to set that up you have to

690
00:57:07,424 --> 00:57:13,784
already have sats to buy your lightning channel you know like that's yeah that's just not appropriate

691
00:57:13,784 --> 00:57:16,704
for a first-time user just checking out Nostar for the first time.

692
00:57:17,344 --> 00:57:18,364
It should just work.

693
00:57:18,424 --> 00:57:19,484
They should have to do nothing,

694
00:57:19,804 --> 00:57:22,944
and Sat should just be able to come in on their very first post.

695
00:57:24,764 --> 00:57:26,604
And I just don't see another way.

696
00:57:26,684 --> 00:57:29,924
Maybe somebody much smarter than me has a way better way to do it.

697
00:57:30,664 --> 00:57:32,444
But as far as I can tell,

698
00:57:32,564 --> 00:57:35,304
the best way that we can have the most seamless UX

699
00:57:35,304 --> 00:57:38,524
actually is using the Spark Wallet thing,

700
00:57:38,624 --> 00:57:42,004
even though that it's pretty sus, man.

701
00:57:42,004 --> 00:57:48,624
like it it could be a giant fed chain by spark who knows you know they are already proposing putting

702
00:57:48,624 --> 00:57:56,104
kyc directly in the ln url uh protocol so maybe all these wallets get set up then they shotgun kyc

703
00:57:56,104 --> 00:58:02,124
everybody like i don't know i'm pretty skeptical about it personally but the ux is just it's there

704
00:58:02,124 --> 00:58:07,904
man and for for me it's like the because the fact that it's like kind of a custodial protocol

705
00:58:07,904 --> 00:58:10,044
is fine.

706
00:58:10,244 --> 00:58:12,264
If I'm okay with you using RISVOL,

707
00:58:12,364 --> 00:58:13,764
then I'm okay with you using this

708
00:58:13,764 --> 00:58:16,144
semi, we'll call it

709
00:58:16,144 --> 00:58:17,744
self-custody, even though it's really not

710
00:58:17,744 --> 00:58:19,404
protocol. To me, it's the same thing.

711
00:58:19,984 --> 00:58:22,024
Your Zap wallet is not that

712
00:58:22,024 --> 00:58:24,024
serious, and it's okay to

713
00:58:24,024 --> 00:58:25,624
take a risk with a custodian on it.

714
00:58:26,604 --> 00:58:26,744
Yeah.

715
00:58:27,444 --> 00:58:29,804
I mentioned the GIF keyboards

716
00:58:29,804 --> 00:58:31,944
a while back,

717
00:58:31,944 --> 00:58:33,824
right? Yes, in an

718
00:58:33,824 --> 00:58:35,484
ideal world, everything is decentralized,

719
00:58:35,884 --> 00:58:37,884
but do you really care if a GIF keyboard

720
00:58:37,884 --> 00:58:40,384
or it comes from a centralized server or not,

721
00:58:40,744 --> 00:58:42,084
I don't think you should.

722
00:58:43,124 --> 00:58:45,024
It's impractical if you wanted it to.

723
00:58:45,104 --> 00:58:45,724
That's my view.

724
00:58:46,344 --> 00:58:48,024
And I think UTXO,

725
00:58:48,544 --> 00:58:51,624
what you're saying about your Zap wallet

726
00:58:51,624 --> 00:58:54,504
kind of falls into that practical trade-off thing.

727
00:58:54,624 --> 00:58:55,884
Yes, in an ideal world,

728
00:58:55,984 --> 00:58:57,564
everything is in the top left quadrant

729
00:58:57,564 --> 00:59:00,704
of that graph I was talking about, right?

730
00:59:00,704 --> 00:59:02,964
Non-custodial and then no KYC.

731
00:59:02,964 --> 00:59:05,584
but show me

732
00:59:05,584 --> 00:59:08,404
show me a zap wallet that's that

733
00:59:08,404 --> 00:59:09,284
right like

734
00:59:09,284 --> 00:59:11,804
Phoenix, Breeze, none of these

735
00:59:11,804 --> 00:59:14,244
would work

736
00:59:14,244 --> 00:59:15,124
on Nostra today

737
00:59:15,124 --> 00:59:18,064
so fine, bite the bullet

738
00:59:18,064 --> 00:59:19,784
don't keep more than

739
00:59:19,784 --> 00:59:21,564
pick your number right

740
00:59:21,564 --> 00:59:22,244
if it's like

741
00:59:22,244 --> 00:59:25,684
is your number 50k sats, 100k sats

742
00:59:25,684 --> 00:59:27,264
whatever your number is, 20k sats

743
00:59:27,264 --> 00:59:29,644
pick that number, never let it go beyond that

744
00:59:29,644 --> 00:59:32,164
if it goes beyond that, sweep into self-custody

745
00:59:32,164 --> 00:59:34,064
and we'd be done with it.

746
00:59:34,344 --> 00:59:38,024
And you're zapping frog photos, for heaven's sake, right?

747
00:59:38,104 --> 00:59:40,684
You shouldn't be putting your child's college fund in there.

748
00:59:42,004 --> 00:59:43,624
Yeah, exactly, man.

749
00:59:43,764 --> 00:59:45,964
And the other thing too is like,

750
00:59:47,504 --> 00:59:51,464
you know, most people on Noster are not getting

751
00:59:51,464 --> 00:59:53,064
even thousands of sets.

752
00:59:53,164 --> 00:59:55,464
Like they're not even getting dollars worth, you know?

753
00:59:55,464 --> 01:00:00,004
We're talking like 500 sets or a thousand sets or something.

754
01:00:00,004 --> 01:00:05,824
Like even the big accounts are like probably only getting like 30,000 sats or like 40,000 sats.

755
01:00:05,944 --> 01:00:07,204
Like it's like 20 bucks, man.

756
01:00:07,244 --> 01:00:09,004
Like just calm down a little bit.

757
01:00:11,584 --> 01:00:12,064
Yeah.

758
01:00:12,724 --> 01:00:20,364
Hey, so let's, so I do want to come back to this UTXO, but we actually just got past the hour mark.

759
01:00:20,844 --> 01:00:27,144
And this is typically the time where we take a pause and I play a Valley for Valley song.

760
01:00:27,144 --> 01:00:37,484
So on my other podcast, Under Plep Chain Radio, Sunday Brunch, I had on Sunday, Bud Tender from Hash Power Music.

761
01:00:38,024 --> 01:00:42,304
And he introduced me to this band that he's onboarded into the Valley for Value.

762
01:00:42,804 --> 01:00:44,464
And they're called the Velviks.

763
01:00:44,464 --> 01:00:56,444
And the song he played had this incredible sort of Pink Floyd vibe to it, especially like the post-Roger Waters, the Division Bell, David Gilmore vocals era.

764
01:00:57,144 --> 01:01:03,324
So I've been going down the Velvix rabbit hole for a bit.

765
01:01:03,444 --> 01:01:05,784
I picked a song which is not quite Pink Floyd,

766
01:01:06,144 --> 01:01:08,564
but I think it's still a good one,

767
01:01:08,664 --> 01:01:12,024
and it actually highlights their range.

768
01:01:12,764 --> 01:01:17,264
So this is Consensual by the Velvix.

769
01:01:27,144 --> 01:01:38,024
Meet by the side door

770
01:01:38,024 --> 01:01:41,444
I wanna taste

771
01:01:41,444 --> 01:01:43,604
The amount

772
01:01:43,604 --> 01:01:46,764
Inbred

773
01:01:46,764 --> 01:01:52,144
My hands around your throat

774
01:01:52,144 --> 01:01:57,964
You're rolling back your eyes

775
01:01:57,964 --> 01:02:01,164
I caught it on my phone

776
01:02:01,164 --> 01:02:06,804
Turned up the radio

777
01:02:06,804 --> 01:02:09,464
Now your hands are tied

778
01:02:09,464 --> 01:02:12,724
You're begging me for war

779
01:02:12,724 --> 01:02:17,944
What must be doing you a favor

780
01:02:17,944 --> 01:02:27,084
Indeed, by this I don't

781
01:02:27,084 --> 01:02:32,504
I wanna make you mine

782
01:02:32,504 --> 01:02:39,764
In the way you could let me tie your knee

783
01:02:39,764 --> 01:02:47,684
Oh, you're tasty

784
01:02:47,684 --> 01:02:54,504
Oh, you're fiesty

785
01:02:54,504 --> 01:03:00,704
Oh, can see this experimental drug

786
01:03:00,704 --> 01:03:06,524
You're holding back your eyes

787
01:03:06,524 --> 01:03:09,244
I caught it on my phone

788
01:03:09,244 --> 01:03:15,104
Turn off the radio

789
01:03:15,104 --> 01:03:18,044
But now your hands are tied

790
01:03:18,044 --> 01:03:21,184
And you're begging me for more

791
01:03:21,184 --> 01:03:26,584
I must be doing you a favor

792
01:03:26,584 --> 01:03:32,484
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

793
01:03:39,244 --> 01:03:43,664
And kill

794
01:03:43,664 --> 01:03:55,244
And kill

795
01:03:55,244 --> 01:03:59,244
And kill

796
01:04:09,244 --> 01:04:12,684
I'm throwing back your ass

797
01:04:12,684 --> 01:04:15,424
I caught it on my phone

798
01:04:15,424 --> 01:04:20,704
Turn the radio

799
01:04:20,704 --> 01:04:23,664
But now your hands are tied

800
01:04:23,664 --> 01:04:26,864
And you're begging me for more

801
01:04:26,864 --> 01:04:30,824
I must be doing yours

802
01:04:30,824 --> 01:04:34,064
Doing yours

803
01:04:34,064 --> 01:04:37,244
Doing yours

804
01:04:39,244 --> 01:04:40,764
Fever!

805
01:04:40,764 --> 01:04:45,544
That was consensual by the Velvix.

806
01:04:46,164 --> 01:04:47,344
A high energy piece.

807
01:04:47,884 --> 01:04:56,664
The one Bartender played on Sunday Brunch a few days ago was a far more languid,

808
01:04:56,764 --> 01:04:59,744
had that hypnotic Pink Floyd type cadence to it.

809
01:05:00,264 --> 01:05:03,224
This one had a nice high energy vibe to it.

810
01:05:03,244 --> 01:05:08,084
I think it's a nice way of winding down on a Friday.

811
01:05:08,084 --> 01:05:16,084
So UTX, you obviously are a guy who's primarily focused on the application layer in Nostra.

812
01:05:16,164 --> 01:05:21,444
Have you taken a look much at the value for value music world that's blossoming?

813
01:05:23,464 --> 01:05:27,844
Other than checking out the new client there, Nostria.

814
01:05:29,624 --> 01:05:36,564
I got to admit, I'm not very heavy into the music stuff, even though I do see that there's a lot of exciting stuff being built.

815
01:05:36,564 --> 01:05:38,144
I haven't been too into it myself.

816
01:05:39,024 --> 01:05:39,144
Yeah.

817
01:05:39,424 --> 01:05:41,664
And shout out Sandre, by the way,

818
01:05:41,824 --> 01:05:43,264
the creator of Nostria.

819
01:05:43,924 --> 01:05:47,424
He's built a Swiss army knife of an app.

820
01:05:48,564 --> 01:05:49,444
I think he's going,

821
01:05:49,844 --> 01:05:52,944
I see a lot of Vitor Pamplona in him.

822
01:05:53,564 --> 01:05:55,144
Like he's trying to build everything.

823
01:05:55,244 --> 01:05:56,664
And I mean that in the best part.

824
01:05:56,724 --> 01:05:57,624
I love Vitor as well.

825
01:05:57,944 --> 01:05:59,144
I mean that in the best possible way.

826
01:05:59,604 --> 01:06:02,584
He's building this everything app, right?

827
01:06:02,584 --> 01:06:04,924
He's a guy who listens to feedback

828
01:06:04,924 --> 01:06:06,864
or sees something new and cool and says,

829
01:06:07,044 --> 01:06:08,344
I want that in my app.

830
01:06:08,724 --> 01:06:09,384
And he builds it.

831
01:06:09,644 --> 01:06:14,064
So Nostria is turning into a really robust app

832
01:06:14,064 --> 01:06:15,064
with a lot of features,

833
01:06:15,184 --> 01:06:17,604
including, as you said, the music bit.

834
01:06:19,444 --> 01:06:20,964
What do you think of that, by the way?

835
01:06:21,064 --> 01:06:22,324
I know we were talking about wallets

836
01:06:22,324 --> 01:06:23,684
and we'll get back to that in a second.

837
01:06:24,044 --> 01:06:27,984
What do you think of the idea of an everything app,

838
01:06:27,984 --> 01:06:30,844
sort of the amethyst Nostria direction

839
01:06:30,844 --> 01:06:34,644
versus the more surgically targeted apps

840
01:06:34,644 --> 01:06:37,364
that focus on a super narrow use case,

841
01:06:37,484 --> 01:06:43,964
maybe just three or four kinds that just serve that use case?

842
01:06:47,404 --> 01:06:48,224
I don't know.

843
01:06:48,284 --> 01:06:49,024
It's tough to say.

844
01:06:49,024 --> 01:06:54,164
I think trying to actually build an everything app that is good

845
01:06:54,164 --> 01:06:59,224
from an execution standpoint is basically impossible,

846
01:06:59,544 --> 01:07:03,824
especially for a solo dev doing this in their spare time

847
01:07:03,824 --> 01:07:05,584
or even a solo dev on a grant.

848
01:07:07,164 --> 01:07:11,104
So I'm pretty skeptical you can get the UX

849
01:07:11,104 --> 01:07:13,624
in such a way that it's like super pleasant

850
01:07:13,624 --> 01:07:15,544
to use such a tool,

851
01:07:15,664 --> 01:07:17,584
but I could be wrong.

852
01:07:19,484 --> 01:07:39,796
But I do generally feel like having a very tailored UX is more ideal than trying to be like a Swiss army knife Yeah And I joke with Vitor sometimes because he and I we have our own startup together with a couple of others working on Web of Trust

853
01:07:39,796 --> 01:07:48,896
So, you know, we get to talk a lot. And I was joking with him saying, is there a nip you've seen that you haven't liked and brought into Amethyst?

854
01:07:48,896 --> 01:07:52,136
and he had a laugh about that

855
01:07:52,136 --> 01:07:55,276
because I think he probably holds a record for Amethyst

856
01:07:55,276 --> 01:07:57,276
for the most number of nips

857
01:07:57,276 --> 01:07:59,756
that are actually integrated into that app.

858
01:08:00,556 --> 01:08:01,076
Probably.

859
01:08:01,636 --> 01:08:04,276
I would bet money that that's true.

860
01:08:05,956 --> 01:08:06,676
All right.

861
01:08:06,796 --> 01:08:09,016
So let's get back to wallets.

862
01:08:09,016 --> 01:08:11,996
We're talking about Spark and how it's convenient today.

863
01:08:12,096 --> 01:08:16,016
By the way, again, I just want to point out,

864
01:08:16,016 --> 01:08:18,856
I just upgraded to Primal 3.0 today,

865
01:08:19,016 --> 01:08:21,576
so I'm seeing some of these new features.

866
01:08:21,796 --> 01:08:22,656
The gift keyboard is one.

867
01:08:23,136 --> 01:08:25,156
The other, since we're talking about Spark,

868
01:08:25,316 --> 01:08:27,996
is they've changed their wallet.

869
01:08:28,296 --> 01:08:29,976
They gutted out the old one,

870
01:08:30,696 --> 01:08:31,616
old Primal wallet,

871
01:08:31,916 --> 01:08:33,076
which was running on,

872
01:08:33,616 --> 01:08:37,496
I think it was Strikes B2B engine,

873
01:08:37,816 --> 01:08:39,776
and now it's a Spark wallet,

874
01:08:40,516 --> 01:08:44,876
which I believe is available in every region.

875
01:08:46,016 --> 01:08:48,456
At least, and as things stand today, no KYC.

876
01:08:48,636 --> 01:08:52,316
And I think the most interesting one, apart from being available in every region,

877
01:08:52,836 --> 01:08:54,976
is there are no caps, no limits.

878
01:08:55,156 --> 01:08:59,476
The previous Primal wallet had a 1 million SAT limit.

879
01:08:59,476 --> 01:09:04,516
So really interesting stuff happening on the Spark side.

880
01:09:05,716 --> 01:09:09,916
But I am, yeah, the shotgun KYC is a big concern.

881
01:09:10,616 --> 01:09:12,496
What do you think UTXO about?

882
01:09:12,496 --> 01:09:22,036
there are other options that are in the same ballpark as a spark type setup right like there's

883
01:09:22,036 --> 01:09:29,816
i think uh the breeze guys had a reference wallet called misty breeze which uses liquid

884
01:09:29,816 --> 01:09:36,296
to solve the inbound outbound uh liquidity problem that he sorry the inbound liquidity

885
01:09:36,296 --> 01:09:38,316
problem that you get with any Lightning wallet.

886
01:09:39,776 --> 01:09:44,976
Again, semi-non-custodial, I guess, if you had to say that.

887
01:09:45,656 --> 01:09:50,996
And people are talking now about, what is that, the other, ARK, right?

888
01:09:51,636 --> 01:09:55,456
ARK could play a similar role that Liquid or what I think,

889
01:09:55,756 --> 01:09:58,316
Spark uses state chains, right?

890
01:09:59,516 --> 01:10:00,496
The Spark does.

891
01:10:00,636 --> 01:10:04,196
What are your thoughts on these different approaches apart from Spark?

892
01:10:06,296 --> 01:10:12,616
Well, I'm really happy that at least somebody is trying other things other than Lightning.

893
01:10:12,836 --> 01:10:14,676
So I'm very happy about that.

894
01:10:16,596 --> 01:10:22,216
On the technical implementation of them, I'm not good enough to sit here and give you some

895
01:10:22,216 --> 01:10:28,936
graybeard answer for it, but I think that they've made the correct trade-offs where

896
01:10:28,936 --> 01:10:37,516
it's like yeah it's it's not like a full-blown custodian but there are some pretty big trust

897
01:10:37,516 --> 01:10:45,476
trade-offs that you make in order to like achieve the speed and the no kyc and the privacy so i like

898
01:10:45,476 --> 01:10:53,776
i think that it's a good direction to go in um just the the real big thing about spark is i really

899
01:10:53,776 --> 01:11:00,096
don't trust light spark you know they're like this is a team that came from facebook that

900
01:11:00,096 --> 01:11:07,156
basically tried to make their own cbdc way back in facebook um and then they came into lightning

901
01:11:07,156 --> 01:11:12,376
like basically like there are some bitcoiners that joined them but this was mostly like a facebook

902
01:11:12,376 --> 01:11:17,576
silicon valley play get a whole bunch of money from vcs and like some of the first things they

903
01:11:17,576 --> 01:11:25,616
wanted to do was just like stable coins and kyc and ln url and then yeah just all that stuff just

904
01:11:25,616 --> 01:11:31,276
you know i don't like it but then you see this breeze implementation they put together and it's

905
01:11:31,276 --> 01:11:37,876
like wow well that ux is like super clean um and it they're not asking for any kyc or anything so

906
01:11:37,876 --> 01:11:45,296
like the concerns i have don't currently exist but i do like my tinfoil hat part of me thinks that

907
01:11:45,296 --> 01:11:51,136
this is some kind of like expand get everybody hooked on your product and then fucking kyc them

908
01:11:51,136 --> 01:11:56,996
and ask for all sorts of subscription fees or take their sets or god knows what i don't know

909
01:11:56,996 --> 01:12:04,816
but i don't trust these like big money types which light spark is so that's my big caveat with it

910
01:12:04,816 --> 01:12:09,356
even though i'm going to support it because the ux is clean like i i don't really trust it like i

911
01:12:09,356 --> 01:12:15,836
trust Rizful more than Spark personally. So I have seen the name Rizful before, um,

912
01:12:16,256 --> 01:12:22,556
on Nostra. Is that just like a standard custodial wallet like we used to have with

913
01:12:22,556 --> 01:12:27,736
wallet to Sathoshi or Coinos back in the day? Yeah, yeah, pretty much the same. Um, but they've

914
01:12:27,736 --> 01:12:35,576
been a little bit more reliable. Um, yeah. Uh, I, I mean, I use them personally, like I'm well

915
01:12:35,576 --> 01:12:37,736
capable of running my own Noster

916
01:12:37,736 --> 01:12:38,936
node and stuff, but

917
01:12:38,936 --> 01:12:41,796
they do it great, and I'm happy to keep my

918
01:12:41,796 --> 01:12:43,596
30,000 sats in my RISV

919
01:12:43,596 --> 01:12:45,816
wallet, and it works perfectly for me.

920
01:12:48,396 --> 01:12:49,456
Okay, so

921
01:12:49,456 --> 01:12:51,616
that's good to know.

922
01:12:52,116 --> 01:12:53,616
It's another arrow in the

923
01:12:53,616 --> 01:12:55,676
quiver, if you will.

924
01:12:56,316 --> 01:12:57,536
I guess Fountain's another

925
01:12:57,536 --> 01:12:59,596
one, right? You can use...

926
01:12:59,596 --> 01:13:01,336
If you do have a Fountain account,

927
01:13:01,636 --> 01:13:03,616
you get a Lightning address, and I

928
01:13:03,616 --> 01:13:05,316
believe they support both

929
01:13:05,316 --> 01:13:07,756
both Nostowallet Connect and

930
01:13:07,756 --> 01:13:09,376
you can

931
01:13:09,376 --> 01:13:11,376
ZAP and NIP57

932
01:13:11,376 --> 01:13:12,676
I'm pretty sure

933
01:13:12,676 --> 01:13:15,596
I can check on the NIP57

934
01:13:15,596 --> 01:13:17,796
NWC I'm sure they do

935
01:13:17,796 --> 01:13:19,516
but

936
01:13:19,516 --> 01:13:21,536
okay so let's

937
01:13:21,536 --> 01:13:23,356
I know you didn't want to go down the

938
01:13:23,356 --> 01:13:25,936
lightning rabbit hole but I have to ask

939
01:13:25,936 --> 01:13:27,816
and see if I can get

940
01:13:27,816 --> 01:13:28,776
something out of you here

941
01:13:28,776 --> 01:13:30,736
the way you framed it

942
01:13:30,736 --> 01:13:33,216
or the way you were talking about it just made me

943
01:13:33,216 --> 01:13:35,196
think of a framing

944
01:13:35,196 --> 01:13:39,276
which I hope to dear God is not true,

945
01:13:40,476 --> 01:13:44,116
which is, as we talked about,

946
01:13:44,296 --> 01:13:47,016
as many people have talked about a lot in the past,

947
01:13:47,476 --> 01:13:50,836
the biggest issue with lightning is inbound liquidity, right?

948
01:13:50,876 --> 01:13:52,376
If you're just doing raw lightning,

949
01:13:52,616 --> 01:13:54,576
like there's nothing you can do

950
01:13:54,576 --> 01:13:57,756
unless you have Bitcoin before that

951
01:13:57,756 --> 01:14:00,656
and you create these deep channels

952
01:14:00,656 --> 01:14:03,496
and then you send the money out

953
01:14:03,496 --> 01:14:06,156
and open up the liquidity.

954
01:14:07,136 --> 01:14:09,656
You cannot ask a normie to do that.

955
01:14:09,836 --> 01:14:12,876
You just, that is, it's a dead on arrival there.

956
01:14:13,456 --> 01:14:13,576
Yep.

957
01:14:13,576 --> 01:14:17,756
So my concern, as you were talking about it,

958
01:14:17,856 --> 01:14:25,036
is have people looked at that need

959
01:14:25,036 --> 01:14:30,236
for solving the main pain point of inbound liquidity

960
01:14:30,236 --> 01:14:32,496
with these solutions.

961
01:14:32,496 --> 01:14:36,056
and maybe it's not spark and it's not breeze, certainly not breeze, right?

962
01:14:36,316 --> 01:14:39,516
I know Roy, I'm a man of integrity.

963
01:14:39,676 --> 01:14:40,836
I'm not worried about that.

964
01:14:41,076 --> 01:14:42,836
And spark, I just don't know enough about.

965
01:14:43,596 --> 01:14:47,536
But can someone like a spark or a breeze look at that and say,

966
01:14:47,676 --> 01:14:50,916
aha, this is how I lure the people in.

967
01:14:52,616 --> 01:14:56,456
I dangle the carrot of saying, hey, I've solved the inbound liquidity problem.

968
01:14:56,656 --> 01:14:59,076
Lightning works perfectly, no KYC, everything's great.

969
01:14:59,896 --> 01:15:04,036
Then they come in, they give a beautiful UX, everything is amazing,

970
01:15:04,556 --> 01:15:06,056
and then that's how they get you.

971
01:15:06,056 --> 01:15:09,456
It's the perfect honeypot right there.

972
01:15:10,776 --> 01:15:15,436
You present Lightning as something that works perfectly, right,

973
01:15:15,476 --> 01:15:17,676
because you've quote-unquote solved the inbound liquidity.

974
01:15:17,996 --> 01:15:20,736
They come in, but you've got them by the balls at that point.

975
01:15:21,056 --> 01:15:22,976
Is that one of your main concerns with Lightning,

976
01:15:23,216 --> 01:15:25,396
or do they go beyond that?

977
01:15:25,396 --> 01:15:33,576
um that's that's not really my concern with lightning that would be like my concern with

978
01:15:33,576 --> 01:15:41,556
with like the spark wallets or people using them for you know smaller applications like i'm not

979
01:15:41,556 --> 01:15:45,856
to work because like let's say they do do that you just like abandon your zap wallet and you

980
01:15:45,856 --> 01:15:53,216
lost your 5 000 sets and too bad um i think the real problem with lightning is that even if if

981
01:15:53,216 --> 01:16:01,376
you're a really hardcore bitcoiner and you want you do want the hard ux you know lightning is still

982
01:16:01,376 --> 01:16:08,436
too much um like you know when everything's working on lightning it doesn't seem that bad

983
01:16:08,436 --> 01:16:13,016
even though okay you've you've gone through the trouble of like learning linux and like learning

984
01:16:13,016 --> 01:16:17,936
what force closing means and you've you know you just love bitcoin you went down that rabbit hole

985
01:16:17,936 --> 01:16:23,856
now you like also have to be a devops engineer you know you your web server needs to always be

986
01:16:23,856 --> 01:16:30,176
online you definitely need to like learn linux and like uh suddenly if your one node goes down

987
01:16:30,176 --> 01:16:36,036
you can't receive any payments anymore you know like this is this is not good man you need to

988
01:16:36,036 --> 01:16:44,236
like my main thing with lightning i i would say is that it has that single point of failure problem

989
01:16:44,236 --> 01:16:49,776
that like self-custody chain Bitcoin doesn't have, you know, like half the miners can go down

990
01:16:49,776 --> 01:16:54,736
and I can still send my transaction because there's still tons of miners. But with Lightning,

991
01:16:54,936 --> 01:17:01,496
if your one node goes down, it's broken. You can't receive, you can't send. So I feel like

992
01:17:01,496 --> 01:17:08,976
Lightning needs to work like more like a cluster. So like, let's say me, me, Avi and Derek Ross,

993
01:17:08,976 --> 01:17:14,176
we all trust each other. So we should be able to like link our nodes together. So if my node

994
01:17:14,176 --> 01:17:19,176
goes down avi you can still receive the payment that i wanted and i'll settle up with you later

995
01:17:19,176 --> 01:17:25,096
because i trust you like i think some kind of way like that so we have more high availability and

996
01:17:25,096 --> 01:17:31,116
you don't have to have such a like insane server that's online 100 of the time i feel like that's

997
01:17:31,116 --> 01:17:38,516
some kind of thing that we need to make it more viable like otherwise it like lightning is really

998
01:17:38,516 --> 01:17:43,456
good let's say if you're an exchange and you do have big servers and big money and like if one

999
01:17:43,456 --> 01:17:48,596
server goes down you have your other high availability one ready to go like then lightning

1000
01:17:48,596 --> 01:17:54,276
is great and it always works and it's awesome but just a regular pleb in their basement with their

1001
01:17:54,276 --> 01:18:00,296
little raspberry pi like that it's just lightning is not good for that in my opinion so it's already

1002
01:18:00,296 --> 01:18:08,216
dead on arrival even for like the most hardcore bitcoiners and once you there's a company you

1003
01:18:08,216 --> 01:18:14,456
were doing Bitvora was that something to do with lightning yeah so it was basically like you could

1004
01:18:14,456 --> 01:18:19,456
think of it sort of like Rizful I guess like just trying to provide a custodial lightning solution

1005
01:18:19,456 --> 01:18:25,416
that is easy for people to just use right away like but it was more for like developers like

1006
01:18:25,416 --> 01:18:30,056
normie developers you know like if they wanted to accept payments on their website or do like

1007
01:18:30,056 --> 01:18:34,976
affiliate payouts like someone doesn't want to take PayPal they want to send Bitcoin but you don't

1008
01:18:34,976 --> 01:18:40,256
know anything about bitcoin so here just use my api it just works and that's all i was trying to

1009
01:18:40,256 --> 01:18:45,156
do but there's literally zero demand nobody wants that not a single person wanted that shit

1010
01:18:45,156 --> 01:18:55,516
so i gave up what did they want they want uh just you know if they want to do any crypto stuff they

1011
01:18:55,516 --> 01:18:59,936
want to do stable coins but they don't want to do any crypto stuff they think crypto is a big scam

1012
01:18:59,936 --> 01:19:04,776
and then you say crypto and they think donald trump and they hate that too so it's just

1013
01:19:04,776 --> 01:19:09,676
just they don't want anything to do with it at all and they don't really see that they have a

1014
01:19:09,676 --> 01:19:23,548
problem they just oh you coming at me you telling me all this stuff about bitcoin i don understand but all my money coming through stripe anyway and you know if they accept bitcoin payments maybe like one percent of their sales will transfer from stripe to something

1015
01:19:23,548 --> 01:19:28,808
they're completely uncomfortable with and kind of think is a scam and is complicated and they don't

1016
01:19:28,808 --> 01:19:35,608
get it you know like it's just not a strong selling proposition like the real key in my opinion is

1017
01:19:35,608 --> 01:19:42,548
that we have to people have to be sold on bitcoin as money first before we can start talking about

1018
01:19:42,548 --> 01:19:46,668
payments like payments are super important don't get me wrong like that's why i built two payment

1019
01:19:46,668 --> 01:19:53,568
companies already two failed ones um to like learn my lesson really the hard way that it only matters

1020
01:19:53,568 --> 01:19:58,728
if people believe in bitcoin and you know if you have michael saylor running around saying oh just

1021
01:19:58,728 --> 01:20:04,928
buy mstr and just keep paying everything in usd then it's just like it's just never going to happen

1022
01:20:04,928 --> 01:20:10,828
like payments will just never be part of the conversation maybe your target audience was

1023
01:20:10,828 --> 01:20:13,748
might not have been the right one then, ETX.

1024
01:20:13,748 --> 01:20:18,908
So if you're targeting Canadian and American developers, right,

1025
01:20:18,948 --> 01:20:21,808
to use Bitvora, and they're like,

1026
01:20:21,968 --> 01:20:23,188
hey, man, what's the problem?

1027
01:20:23,308 --> 01:20:24,648
Stripe works, right?

1028
01:20:24,768 --> 01:20:28,128
Venmo, whatever the hell they use, works.

1029
01:20:30,048 --> 01:20:31,788
Maybe they're not the right people.

1030
01:20:32,068 --> 01:20:35,868
Maybe it needed to be some developers in Latin America,

1031
01:20:36,208 --> 01:20:39,328
in Asia, or in Africa who feel the pinch,

1032
01:20:39,528 --> 01:20:40,808
who first of all don't have a Stripe.

1033
01:20:40,828 --> 01:20:51,768
setup. The fiat trails might not be as robust as they are in North America. And then on top of that,

1034
01:20:52,128 --> 01:20:57,788
they're actively facing the debasement of their fiat currency. So they want to hold something

1035
01:20:57,788 --> 01:21:02,948
that's not debasing, want to be paid in something that's not debasing. Maybe they would have been

1036
01:21:02,948 --> 01:21:08,328
better customers for Bitvora. Well, I mean, that's who I was going after with Nodeless.

1037
01:21:08,328 --> 01:21:12,848
and that's who my customers were and it was actually going pretty well but i almost went

1038
01:21:12,848 --> 01:21:18,828
to jail for that shit you know so uh that's why i went with bitvora and got regulated and worked

1039
01:21:18,828 --> 01:21:23,468
with other like above the board companies but that didn't work so like neither of them worked

1040
01:21:23,468 --> 01:21:28,828
you know you want to do it right you go to jail you do it bad nobody buys it so i just i just give

1041
01:21:28,828 --> 01:21:36,088
up man i'm just i'll just work on the charm man it's talking i'm done with payments no it's done

1042
01:21:36,088 --> 01:21:44,068
it's over for me somebody else can pick up that torch i give up officially yeah it's not easy man

1043
01:21:44,068 --> 01:21:50,988
uh that that is for sure uh especially i mean this is this is this goes back to the point of

1044
01:21:50,988 --> 01:21:55,388
bitcoin being dissident money i don't know if there's a scenario in which above the board

1045
01:21:55,388 --> 01:22:01,108
scales right it's only when you're threatened only when someone's after you and you're like

1046
01:22:01,108 --> 01:22:04,848
oh shit i need to hide what i'm doing or i need to be really smart about what i'm doing

1047
01:22:04,848 --> 01:22:11,688
right that's i'm a dissident i'm i'm i'm i'm on the run that's when

1048
01:22:11,688 --> 01:22:17,748
uh but you you realize you need bitcoin and that's when bitcoin really works

1049
01:22:17,748 --> 01:22:24,188
yeah and i mean hopefully we get there i think the other thing that's like

1050
01:22:24,188 --> 01:22:31,988
just related to to lightning and custodians like the majority of people when they first get into

1051
01:22:31,988 --> 01:22:35,728
Bitcoin. And I'm sure like pretty much everybody listening got into Bitcoin the same way as they

1052
01:22:35,728 --> 01:22:42,088
went to like Coinbase or something and they bought Bitcoin there. Right. And that was their entry

1053
01:22:42,088 --> 01:22:51,088
into Bitcoin. So if and obviously you move on from that. So if our entry into Noster is like some

1054
01:22:51,088 --> 01:22:56,768
custodian or a breeze wallet or something, that's just easy. That's fine. You know, that's the very

1055
01:22:56,768 --> 01:23:02,328
top of the funnel and eventually maybe we can turn them into node runners maybe but it's still

1056
01:23:02,328 --> 01:23:07,568
better than like being on coinbase for fuck's sake or having an etf so i'd still rather us like go in

1057
01:23:07,568 --> 01:23:18,288
this direction yeah for sure all right so we've i don't did we talk enough about your uh

1058
01:23:18,288 --> 01:23:22,948
nostriband replacement i don't think you told us what it's called or what it's going to be called

1059
01:23:22,948 --> 01:23:29,288
um you know if somebody is listening at this point i'll just tell them so you could go to

1060
01:23:29,288 --> 01:23:36,508
nostrarchives.com and that's the site it's still crawling the old notes okay so don't be mad

1061
01:23:36,508 --> 01:23:42,248
if the old notes are not there i know they're not there um it's going to take a couple of weeks but

1062
01:23:42,248 --> 01:23:49,048
yeah you can you can check it out uh i'm still i'm sort of working on it in tandem with wisp

1063
01:23:49,048 --> 01:23:56,348
because, you know, if I improve the search on Noster Archives, then that directly makes Wisp

1064
01:23:56,348 --> 01:23:59,868
better. And same thing with like the trending feeds and all sorts of other things. So I'm sort

1065
01:23:59,868 --> 01:24:06,208
of working on them at the same time to enable these different UXs. And other client developers

1066
01:24:06,208 --> 01:24:11,688
are completely open to it too. So it's not just like a proprietary thing. It's completely open

1067
01:24:11,688 --> 01:24:17,368
source. And all of our APIs are fully open too. So any client can just adopt it. Like these,

1068
01:24:17,368 --> 01:24:23,728
the feeds i built yesterday already work on jumble today because we built it in an open way so

1069
01:24:23,728 --> 01:24:34,608
yeah nostararchives.com nostararchives.com how uh so what what what does it have that nostarband

1070
01:24:34,608 --> 01:24:39,148
didn't have i think nostarband did have the idea of feeds but i suspect what you're talking about

1071
01:24:39,148 --> 01:24:44,388
is a it's a little more sophisticated than that what what else does it have that that was missing

1072
01:24:44,388 --> 01:24:45,748
you felt in Nosterband?

1073
01:24:46,868 --> 01:24:50,568
Yeah, well, the big thing, I mean, I don't want to gloss over that point.

1074
01:24:50,728 --> 01:24:56,568
So the feeds, if the old Nosterband feeds, you had to go to Nosterband.com to use the

1075
01:24:56,568 --> 01:24:56,828
feeds.

1076
01:24:56,908 --> 01:24:57,708
You had to go to their website.

1077
01:24:58,268 --> 01:25:04,408
But the feeds that I'm doing on Noster Archive, you can use it in your own client.

1078
01:25:04,948 --> 01:25:08,948
So you don't have to go to the website, you know, and you could see it's in Wisp today,

1079
01:25:09,128 --> 01:25:11,508
like the reference implementation of it, I guess.

1080
01:25:11,688 --> 01:25:12,568
It's on Jumble.

1081
01:25:12,568 --> 01:25:17,928
So any client that lets you browse a relay, those feeds work today.

1082
01:25:18,148 --> 01:25:19,408
And Nosterband never had that.

1083
01:25:20,808 --> 01:25:24,048
So that's one very key critical component.

1084
01:25:25,108 --> 01:25:26,008
The other one is search.

1085
01:25:26,108 --> 01:25:29,608
Now, Nosterband had search, but it wasn't an algorithmic search.

1086
01:25:31,088 --> 01:25:33,608
I think they may have offered a relay search.

1087
01:25:33,688 --> 01:25:34,388
I'm not sure.

1088
01:25:34,568 --> 01:25:37,308
But I know they had a relay, so it probably did.

1089
01:25:37,428 --> 01:25:41,268
But I'm spending a lot of time to make sure that search is good.

1090
01:25:42,568 --> 01:25:45,868
Like, I'm sure you notice, like, everybody's had this experience on Noster.

1091
01:25:46,028 --> 01:25:48,388
Like, maybe you type Odell, right?

1092
01:25:48,408 --> 01:25:53,848
And then you see 30 impersonators of Odell, but the real one is not there, you know?

1093
01:25:55,408 --> 01:25:58,308
So, like, we solve basic things like that.

1094
01:25:58,368 --> 01:25:59,228
Like, we rank things.

1095
01:25:59,228 --> 01:26:02,888
We're like, oh, this Odell has 10,000 followers and the other one has zero.

1096
01:26:03,148 --> 01:26:05,248
I wonder who I should show first, you know?

1097
01:26:05,328 --> 01:26:10,068
Like, most Noster clients didn't even bother trying to do a basic thing like that.

1098
01:26:10,068 --> 01:26:17,068
um so i would say it's you know we're trying to be a much more polished version so definitely a

1099
01:26:17,068 --> 01:26:22,108
more of a 2.0 vibe um something that actually interoperates with clients like now that i'm

1100
01:26:22,108 --> 01:26:29,068
building a client i have a much better understanding of like what a client needs from a relay so even

1101
01:26:29,068 --> 01:26:33,748
though yeah like it looks like a website it's also a relay you know so i'm trying to like

1102
01:26:33,748 --> 01:26:41,828
play around with that idea um and just overall just be a lot more of a beautiful experience you

1103
01:26:41,828 --> 01:26:46,128
know like i'm not uh you know i'll let people judge for themselves like just go to the websites

1104
01:26:46,128 --> 01:26:52,628
and which one is more pleasant to use i'll i'll let the the people decide now i've seen it and

1105
01:26:52,628 --> 01:26:59,448
it looks great and i know you said there's still there's more coming so i'll wait for that um but

1106
01:26:59,448 --> 01:27:03,528
that's interesting that you say it's a web it looks like a web server it's a relay first

1107
01:27:03,528 --> 01:27:10,908
would you say utxo then that if a relay had a front end if a nostril relay were to have a front

1108
01:27:10,908 --> 01:27:19,488
end it would look like what you're building um no i don't think that's a fair way to look at it

1109
01:27:19,488 --> 01:27:25,288
um maybe you could think of it more like an indexer relay or an archival relay or like a

1110
01:27:25,288 --> 01:27:27,428
a Noster full node or something like that.

1111
01:27:29,048 --> 01:27:29,708
You know, regular

1112
01:27:29,708 --> 01:27:31,668
relays should not be trying to pull

1113
01:27:31,668 --> 01:27:32,888
in every single node

1114
01:27:32,888 --> 01:27:35,308
in the entire network. That's not

1115
01:27:35,308 --> 01:27:37,708
feasible, you know, and it's not necessary.

1116
01:27:38,628 --> 01:27:39,648
Like a good client

1117
01:27:39,648 --> 01:27:41,588
can just connect to multiple relays and

1118
01:27:41,588 --> 01:27:43,568
get all the information instead of relying on

1119
01:27:43,568 --> 01:27:45,368
one relay to get everything,

1120
01:27:45,568 --> 01:27:47,428
which is like basically what Noster

1121
01:27:47,428 --> 01:27:49,308
Archives is. That's basically what Primal

1122
01:27:49,308 --> 01:27:51,688
cache is. Like it's just a central

1123
01:27:51,688 --> 01:27:53,268
database that has all the nodes.

1124
01:27:55,288 --> 01:28:09,168
But I do think that it is important that these do exist somewhere on the network, that somebody is doing it so that you can do better searches than like relay searches or compute algorithms.

1125
01:28:09,168 --> 01:28:18,228
Like a client could really never do that because, you know, when you log into your client and you download notes, you can't download the whole network.

1126
01:28:18,348 --> 01:28:21,728
You can't download seven days of all the notes and all the likes.

1127
01:28:22,568 --> 01:28:23,628
That's just not feasible.

1128
01:28:23,628 --> 01:28:30,748
but you know a web a good big web server can do that and it enables a better ux so

1129
01:28:30,748 --> 01:28:37,968
that's that's basically what we're doing um but the really important piece is that it acts as a

1130
01:28:37,968 --> 01:28:44,948
relay it's like it has relay endpoints so that natural nostor clients can take advantage of it

1131
01:28:44,948 --> 01:28:50,308
instead of being like a rest api which is what nostor band was that only like web clients could

1132
01:28:50,308 --> 01:28:55,608
maybe take advantage of in certain instances like no strudel i know like pulled some stats

1133
01:28:55,608 --> 01:29:02,048
from nostr band so you could get like your follower count um so that's like one small example but that

1134
01:29:02,048 --> 01:29:06,848
was only api based like you couldn't connect to your you couldn't connect to it with amethyst to

1135
01:29:06,848 --> 01:29:12,308
get the follower count but in nostr archives you'll be able to do that which is a like a totally new

1136
01:29:12,308 --> 01:29:13,848
paradigm in Nostra.

1137
01:29:16,148 --> 01:29:23,588
So, well, obviously I can use the Nostra archives front end for the browsing and so on, but

1138
01:29:23,588 --> 01:29:25,228
you just mentioned Nostrudel.

1139
01:29:25,928 --> 01:29:29,928
Would I be able to hook up the event console to the relay you have?

1140
01:29:29,968 --> 01:29:35,288
Because that would just supercharge the queries on Nostrudel.

1141
01:29:38,868 --> 01:29:41,048
Sorry, you said event console?

1142
01:29:41,048 --> 01:29:44,928
question mark? Yeah, yeah. Nordstrudel has an event console where you can query

1143
01:29:44,928 --> 01:29:48,968
different relays. And I almost, I mean, there's a whole bunch of things

1144
01:29:48,968 --> 01:29:52,968
I can't find when I do that. You know, when you're looking for

1145
01:29:52,968 --> 01:29:56,788
very specific kinds

1146
01:29:56,788 --> 01:29:59,888
that users might have created,

1147
01:30:00,788 --> 01:30:05,068
I tend to go to the event console of

1148
01:30:05,068 --> 01:30:08,468
Nordstrudel and then type in the query and then point it to the right relay.

1149
01:30:08,468 --> 01:30:14,128
I'm wondering if you're building this full indexer relay,

1150
01:30:15,288 --> 01:30:17,648
it's just going to become a really rich source

1151
01:30:17,648 --> 01:30:19,088
for those types of queries.

1152
01:30:21,008 --> 01:30:25,228
Yeah, I mean, if they're using the just regular search,

1153
01:30:25,388 --> 01:30:26,848
like the NIP50 search,

1154
01:30:27,068 --> 01:30:29,748
then it will work today in Nostrudel.

1155
01:30:29,948 --> 01:30:34,568
Now, we don't index every single kind that comes through.

1156
01:30:34,668 --> 01:30:35,348
We're very specific,

1157
01:30:35,348 --> 01:30:38,288
and that's how it's actually able to work.

1158
01:30:38,288 --> 01:30:42,668
like if we have to save every single kind that would be impossible um so we're just doing like

1159
01:30:42,668 --> 01:30:50,588
the social kinds you know like kind ones apps likes retweets that kind of thing um yeah so you

1160
01:30:50,588 --> 01:30:55,948
won't be able to like find every kind but i bet you if you use it to search like do a keyword search

1161
01:30:55,948 --> 01:31:01,128
or a user search i i would be willing to bet that it's probably the it's probably going to give you

1162
01:31:01,128 --> 01:31:04,368
the best results of any relay that you've tried.

1163
01:31:04,368 --> 01:31:18,180
Awesome That great All right got a last question for you UTXL Unless actually let me ask you do you think you covered everything you wanted to talk about on wisp and on nostril archives

1164
01:31:18,180 --> 01:31:26,840
um i think it might be it might be worth spending a little bit of time like just a couple minutes

1165
01:31:26,840 --> 01:31:31,420
talking about inbox and help box and like yeah let's do it why it's so important so

1166
01:31:31,420 --> 01:31:38,440
basically like how a lot of Nostra clients work right now is like, let's say you, Avi,

1167
01:31:38,700 --> 01:31:46,040
you're using your own relays on some client. And then I reply to you and I'm just picking this.

1168
01:31:46,180 --> 01:31:51,420
I'm not trying to pick on anyone. I'll just say some purple client. Okay. And then I reply to you.

1169
01:31:53,260 --> 01:31:57,860
How most clients work right now is that that reply that I sent to you is actually completely

1170
01:31:57,860 --> 01:32:04,280
random. Like it's just whatever relays I've set on my side. So for you, if you don't have those

1171
01:32:04,280 --> 01:32:10,300
relays, now you can't see my replies. Like that is, that makes no sense. And that's basically how

1172
01:32:10,300 --> 01:32:15,460
Noster works right now is every time you reply, a lot of these clients just send it to random relays

1173
01:32:15,460 --> 01:32:22,700
and just hope for the best. Where really what Inbox and Outbox does, and it's very simple, is

1174
01:32:22,700 --> 01:32:29,720
just before i reply to avi i say what relays does he use and then i send the reply there instead of

1175
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:36,080
some random list um so i think that's really really important it's a very simple super simple

1176
01:32:36,080 --> 01:32:42,940
concept just check the relay before you send um and that's what we do in wisp and that's like the

1177
01:32:42,940 --> 01:32:48,180
quote-unquote secret to never missing any notes is just sending them to the goddamn right relay

1178
01:32:48,180 --> 01:32:55,560
so hopefully more clients will adopt it it's semi-embarrassing that they still don't do that

1179
01:32:55,560 --> 01:33:02,440
because it's so easy to do but when you use wisp you can like rest assured that the person who you

1180
01:33:02,440 --> 01:33:07,760
send a reply to or a like or a zap they're gonna see it because we always send it to the relay that

1181
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:08,480
they read from.

1182
01:33:11,520 --> 01:33:17,320
Yeah, that sounds obvious, but obviously it's not.

1183
01:33:18,660 --> 01:33:19,760
That's how it ought to be.

1184
01:33:20,740 --> 01:33:20,940
Yeah.

1185
01:33:21,100 --> 01:33:21,400
Great.

1186
01:33:22,500 --> 01:33:23,380
And yes, you're right.

1187
01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:27,900
For whatever reason, they don't do that.

1188
01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:31,060
I mean, do they get their, they basically look at the end profile, right?

1189
01:33:31,180 --> 01:33:31,780
That's what you do.

1190
01:33:31,820 --> 01:33:36,240
You look at the end profile of the person you're applying to and you pull the relays

1191
01:33:36,240 --> 01:33:36,660
from there.

1192
01:33:36,660 --> 01:33:43,340
uh it's it's not on their profile but you look at their pub key and then you search for their

1193
01:33:43,340 --> 01:33:51,320
relay list okay yeah and everyone's got one everyone's got yeah yeah no i know i know the

1194
01:33:51,320 --> 01:33:59,120
reason i said so the end profile the nostor end profile has has your has a relay list along as

1195
01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:05,340
part of the metadata it should it doesn't always like the end profile you can encode like anything

1196
01:34:05,340 --> 01:34:06,220
into it.

1197
01:34:07,160 --> 01:34:09,360
So it doesn't necessarily have

1198
01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:11,380
the right hints in it. So just

1199
01:34:11,380 --> 01:34:13,400
because someone shared an end profile doesn't mean

1200
01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:15,020
that there are really hints in it.

1201
01:34:15,660 --> 01:34:17,300
Gotcha. But it should.

1202
01:34:20,860 --> 01:34:21,380
Cool.

1203
01:34:21,620 --> 01:34:23,480
Alright, so here's my last question for you.

1204
01:34:24,160 --> 01:34:24,980
Have you written,

1205
01:34:25,780 --> 01:34:27,400
handwritten, a single line

1206
01:34:27,400 --> 01:34:29,380
of code in the last year or two?

1207
01:34:30,760 --> 01:34:31,420
Oh yeah,

1208
01:34:31,540 --> 01:34:33,620
I handwrite code pretty much

1209
01:34:33,620 --> 01:34:39,560
i want to say almost every day or i i will at least like write some code in my prompts

1210
01:34:39,560 --> 01:34:46,880
um you know the ai still comes up with some bad patterns and like still sometimes you'll have a

1211
01:34:46,880 --> 01:34:54,160
bug that is very easy when like you look at the code but maybe your prompt is bad um so i do edit

1212
01:34:54,160 --> 01:34:58,920
code but i don't like sit there and write any code from scratch it's always like editing or

1213
01:34:58,920 --> 01:35:02,080
within a prompt that I'll be writing it.

1214
01:35:04,020 --> 01:35:05,860
What's your go-to?

1215
01:35:06,380 --> 01:35:07,100
Is it Claude Code?

1216
01:35:08,340 --> 01:35:10,600
Yeah, Claude Code is my main jam.

1217
01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:14,660
Even if I'm using OpenClaude,

1218
01:35:14,720 --> 01:35:16,480
which I'm getting so frustrated with these days,

1219
01:35:16,560 --> 01:35:17,920
pretty much never going to use it again,

1220
01:35:18,500 --> 01:35:20,700
I was still using Claude.

1221
01:35:20,700 --> 01:35:23,320
Claude Opus is just really good, man.

1222
01:35:24,340 --> 01:35:25,340
Oh, yeah, 4.6.

1223
01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:28,360
I mean, it's probably the best out there for anything,

1224
01:35:28,360 --> 01:35:34,300
not just for coding, but well worth the ticket price.

1225
01:35:35,320 --> 01:35:41,340
What is your, I mean, everyone has their favorite pet peeve with open claw.

1226
01:35:41,560 --> 01:35:42,120
What's yours?

1227
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:48,220
Oh, God, there are just so many, man.

1228
01:35:49,820 --> 01:35:56,560
Probably the very number one most annoying thing is that it doesn't remember the time zones all the time,

1229
01:35:56,560 --> 01:36:02,380
like maybe 60 70 percent of the time it does so it's completely useless for like hey remind me of

1230
01:36:02,380 --> 01:36:09,200
this tomorrow you know it always like it screws it up 60 70 percent of the time um so that's probably

1231
01:36:09,200 --> 01:36:14,940
like the most annoying for just normie stuff that like i would expect at the very basic if i say you

1232
01:36:14,940 --> 01:36:21,120
know send me a reminder tomorrow at 2 p.m that it can do that um but it can't and then the other

1233
01:36:21,120 --> 01:36:26,120
thing too is like when you're trying to let's say like do some vibe coding on telegram if you

1234
01:36:26,120 --> 01:36:32,020
asked it to do too big of a project it just like gives up and stops responding and then you have to

1235
01:36:32,020 --> 01:36:38,400
like ssh in try to like resume it and restart the gateway and it's just it's just jank man it's i

1236
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:45,980
don't think it's very good personally yeah and you forgot the biggest one you're watching your

1237
01:36:45,980 --> 01:36:51,980
life savings bleed out in front of you if you're using uh if you're hitting an api with it if you're

1238
01:36:51,980 --> 01:36:55,120
Hitting the Claude API, Anthropic API with it, oh my God.

1239
01:36:56,020 --> 01:37:00,240
It's just, it destroys the context window in like two or three rounds.

1240
01:37:02,220 --> 01:37:03,120
Oh, yikes.

1241
01:37:03,180 --> 01:37:06,020
Yeah, I don't, I mean, I subscribe to the Max Claude plan.

1242
01:37:06,120 --> 01:37:07,980
It's pretty hard to hit those limits.

1243
01:37:08,520 --> 01:37:10,640
I've done it once though, but yeah.

1244
01:37:10,640 --> 01:37:15,520
Actually, so have you, how did you, so this is the, I have that one too,

1245
01:37:15,820 --> 01:37:20,040
but I haven't figured out how to wire up my OpenClaude to the Claude Max plan.

1246
01:37:20,040 --> 01:37:24,440
And I remember reading somewhere that Anthropi actually doesn't like you doing that.

1247
01:37:25,560 --> 01:37:29,280
And they might try and – yeah, I don't know.

1248
01:37:29,340 --> 01:37:33,400
They might shut you down even if they find out you're using OpenClaw with the Max Plan.

1249
01:37:34,060 --> 01:37:35,080
Oh, is that true?

1250
01:37:35,320 --> 01:37:35,760
Goddamn.

1251
01:37:37,460 --> 01:37:39,640
I definitely don't want to risk my Claw account, man.

1252
01:37:39,660 --> 01:37:41,100
I'm screwed without that.

1253
01:37:41,400 --> 01:37:42,540
I could – this is a rumor.

1254
01:37:42,920 --> 01:37:47,940
I think at this point, most of us would be screwed if we got banned from Claw.

1255
01:37:47,940 --> 01:37:57,400
but uh what uh i i could i could be wrong it's a rumor but but you figured out a way of wiring it

1256
01:37:57,400 --> 01:38:02,020
up okay well maybe you didn't let's just leave it at that i i didn't i mean i didn't do anything

1257
01:38:02,020 --> 01:38:06,480
special man i just go i just followed the the open claw that it's already there but now that

1258
01:38:06,480 --> 01:38:10,400
you say that i'm just i'm not even gonna risk it like i i don't even know why i'm using open

1259
01:38:10,400 --> 01:38:14,760
claw it's it's fucking bad anyway so i'll just use cloud code and that's fine and just delete my

1260
01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:20,300
agents but cloud code does the same thing anyway right it's like it spins up five or six agents

1261
01:38:20,300 --> 01:38:25,920
to do whatever and if you want to do some of the desktop type stuff that if you were ever using

1262
01:38:25,920 --> 01:38:31,080
openclaw for that just use the what is that thing called co-work right point it to whichever folder

1263
01:38:31,080 --> 01:38:40,640
you want and it'll do what it needs to uh yeah i mean i i don't even know like so if if it does

1264
01:38:40,640 --> 01:38:47,200
that's great but yeah open claw like cloud code was already better than trying to vibe with um

1265
01:38:47,200 --> 01:38:53,580
open open claw anyway so that's pretty much the main use of ai and then i just tried to have it

1266
01:38:53,580 --> 01:38:59,020
do other like personal things and it was just shitty and not worth it i basically don't use

1267
01:38:59,020 --> 01:39:06,540
it anyway so no big deal no harm no foul okay yeah and again if you the for the personal stuff

1268
01:39:06,540 --> 01:39:09,620
like Claude Code for, sorry, Claude Cowork, right?

1269
01:39:11,300 --> 01:39:13,040
I don't know if you said you haven't used it,

1270
01:39:13,080 --> 01:39:17,700
but it's there on your Claude thing, desktop app.

1271
01:39:17,800 --> 01:39:21,220
You have code, chat, and Cowork.

1272
01:39:21,700 --> 01:39:24,080
That does a great job with the personal stuff,

1273
01:39:24,440 --> 01:39:25,860
especially if you put it on Opus.

1274
01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:28,900
Okay, I'll have to give it a try.

1275
01:39:30,080 --> 01:39:33,620
We have globe99 in the live chat.

1276
01:39:33,620 --> 01:39:35,800
make a very good point

1277
01:39:35,800 --> 01:39:36,700
saying

1278
01:39:36,700 --> 01:39:39,520
lol our quote unquote

1279
01:39:39,520 --> 01:39:40,700
decentralized future

1280
01:39:40,700 --> 01:39:43,140
all dependent on one company

1281
01:39:43,140 --> 01:39:44,380
skull emoji

1282
01:39:44,380 --> 01:39:45,900
it's true man

1283
01:39:45,900 --> 01:39:48,840
got him

1284
01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:50,700
it's true

1285
01:39:50,700 --> 01:39:52,800
without Claude Noster fails

1286
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:53,900
I'll just

1287
01:39:53,900 --> 01:39:56,420
I don't know what I'll do without Claude

1288
01:39:56,420 --> 01:39:57,560
even though I know how to code

1289
01:39:57,560 --> 01:39:59,820
I ain't going back to that shit man

1290
01:39:59,820 --> 01:40:02,1000
yeah there is no going back

1291
01:40:02,1000 --> 01:40:04,960
but of course

1292
01:40:04,960 --> 01:40:07,900
you know we're living through the golden age

1293
01:40:07,900 --> 01:40:09,760
of venture capital

1294
01:40:09,760 --> 01:40:11,700
subsidized inference

1295
01:40:11,700 --> 01:40:13,020
and at some point

1296
01:40:13,020 --> 01:40:15,300
that is going to dry up

1297
01:40:15,300 --> 01:40:17,860
and we'll face the real economic cost

1298
01:40:17,860 --> 01:40:19,020
of inference

1299
01:40:19,020 --> 01:40:21,380
yes we will

1300
01:40:21,380 --> 01:40:23,300
awesome

1301
01:40:23,300 --> 01:40:25,240
well hey UTXO

1302
01:40:25,240 --> 01:40:26,160
thanks a lot man

1303
01:40:26,160 --> 01:40:27,260
appreciate this

1304
01:40:27,260 --> 01:40:30,520
as always enjoy conversations with you

1305
01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:36,300
whether it's outside of a rowdy bar in Miami Beach

1306
01:40:36,300 --> 01:40:39,240
throwing out drunks from a karaoke bar

1307
01:40:39,240 --> 01:40:41,620
or across the airwaves.

1308
01:40:41,940 --> 01:40:43,140
Always a pleasure, my friend.

1309
01:40:44,120 --> 01:40:45,020
And same to you, sir.

1310
01:40:45,080 --> 01:40:45,800
Thanks for having me.

1311
01:40:47,200 --> 01:40:47,580
Awesome.

1312
01:40:47,960 --> 01:40:48,500
Thank you.

1313
01:40:48,540 --> 01:40:50,680
And thank you to our live stream audience

1314
01:40:50,680 --> 01:40:52,880
for listening and for your zaps.

1315
01:40:53,560 --> 01:40:55,600
If you are listening to the recording,

1316
01:40:56,200 --> 01:40:59,100
as always, notice what you didn't hear today.

1317
01:40:59,100 --> 01:41:04,760
You didn't hear me pushing a sports betting app designed to drain your savings,

1318
01:41:04,980 --> 01:41:08,960
and you didn't hear a script for high-interest credit cards.

1319
01:41:09,360 --> 01:41:10,840
I don't do that here.

1320
01:41:11,240 --> 01:41:15,300
On the lightning-laced airwaves, the only sponsor is you.

1321
01:41:15,940 --> 01:41:20,600
If you found value in this conversation, if it gave you a new mental model,

1322
01:41:21,080 --> 01:41:25,380
a moment of clarity, or just respite from the noise,

1323
01:41:25,780 --> 01:41:27,740
then please consider returning the value.

1324
01:41:27,740 --> 01:41:40,060
You can stream sats as you listen on your favorite podcasting 2.0 app, or you can become a monthly subscriber to the show on Fountain to keep the signal strong.

1325
01:41:40,660 --> 01:41:43,740
You are the producers of this vibe.

1326
01:41:44,500 --> 01:41:50,280
And speaking of producers, the final word goes to the executive producer of this episode.

1327
01:41:50,820 --> 01:41:53,820
That's the top booster from last week.

1328
01:41:53,820 --> 01:42:00,980
If you want to claim the spot next week and have your message read over the air, you know what to do.

1329
01:42:01,540 --> 01:42:02,980
Check the leaderboard.

1330
01:42:03,700 --> 01:42:14,080
This week, the EP chair and the final word belongs to Geofits, coming in with a short and simple message.

1331
01:42:14,940 --> 01:42:17,420
Love it. Thank you both.

1332
01:42:18,360 --> 01:42:22,080
Thank you for that comment and for your generosity, Geofits.

1333
01:42:22,080 --> 01:42:27,620
And for those of you who want to shape the next show, the mic is open.

1334
01:42:28,460 --> 01:42:34,240
Whether you want to ratify the sermon with your own story or rectify it with a counterpoint,

1335
01:42:34,820 --> 01:42:37,520
the executive producer slot is waiting for you.

1336
01:42:38,320 --> 01:42:40,240
The minutes are open for next week.

1337
01:42:40,960 --> 01:42:42,920
Until then, stay sovereign.

1338
01:42:52,080 --> 01:42:52,580
you