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Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses on the intersection of Nostra and Bitcoin protocols.

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Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers, doers and plebs.

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All right, we are live. Welcome, gentle pioneers, to the lightning-laced airwaves.

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Today is Friday, the 7th of November, and it is 3.04 p.m. on the East Coast of the United States at the time of recording.

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This is episode 136 of Plep Chain Radio, and we have a special one ahead of you today.

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My good friend Max Hillebrand, cypherpunk philosopher and much, much more, is here to talk about all things cypherpunk and whatever else is on his mind.

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And a reminder, folks, if you are listening to this show on Apple or Spotify, first of all, thank you for listening.

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but I would urge you to hit pause

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and switch over to the Fountain Podcasting app

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where you can earn some sats

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and support the value-for-value revolution

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while you listen.

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This show is streamed live on Zap.Stream

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and any other Noster client that supports streaming

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such as Amethyst, Noster, Fountain and Primal.

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And folks, if you do want to catch

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the Finding Home Prague episode

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It is now available on IndieHub, and you can use the code PIONEERCHAN21, one word, for 21% off.

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And folks, I'm actually excited to say the sequel to 24, the title of the book is July 18th, will be released in a little over a week.

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It's taken me about 18 months to write, about 180,000 words that came straight from my soul.

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and I hope you like it as much as you liked 24, maybe even better.

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We'll wait and see.

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And for our Culture Corner today, there's BitFest that's coming up in Manchester, England

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between the 21st and the 23rd of November.

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That's just in two weeks' time and it's going to be three full days of Noster, Bitcoin,

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in film and art in sunny and glorious Manchester.

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And you can use the code PLEPCHAINRADIO, one word, for 10% off tickets.

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I will be there, as will several other of my friends.

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So I'm looking forward to catching up with those of you who can make it.

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And for our sermon today,

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Bear markets are for building

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And urban decay is the fertile ground for cultural revolutions

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Especially in the case of New York

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A city I love truly, madly, and deeply

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It was my home for almost 20 years

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I arrived as a boy, really

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A short few months after 9-11

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And became a man there

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I got my first job there and my second, third and fourth.

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Met my wife, fell in love, and then fell in love again when my son was born in New York.

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He grew up there playing soccer in the public fields of Harlem.

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I've had to learn how to overcome severe adversity while I was there and also got to celebrate incredible triumphs.

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For someone like me, unmoored from any single culture or country for most of my life, New York was the closest I ever came to finding home.

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So today's sermon is one of hope. It's one of hope for a city I love.

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in light of Zohran Mamdani's victory in the mayoral elections

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a short few days ago, earlier this week actually

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it's a victory that has left a lot of my friends in despair

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so here's what I have to say to them

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this is a city that moves in long breaths

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30 to 40 year inhales and exhales

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booms and busts

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Booms bring glass towers, velvet ropes, and a glut of fair-weather wanderers enamored by sterile and sanitized fiat opulence.

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Bus bring plywood, pigeons, and rent cheap enough for a drummer, a coder, and a poet to split a railroad apartment and accidentally invent the future.

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History doesn't repeat.

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It rhymes like a subway busker with two chords and a dream.

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After the Civil War came the gilded age of the late 1800s.

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It brought the Brooklyn Bridge, the Metropolitan Museum of Art,

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and it also brought bankers.

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Then came the crash of the 1890s and a long decay,

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which brought in the Harlem Renaissance, the Jazz Age,

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the New York subway system culminating in the roaring 20s.

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After the Great Depression and the crash of 1929,

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the next decade and a half of decay until the end of World War II

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brought with it incredible theater and photography.

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It also laid the fertile ground for the madman era that followed in the 50s and 60s.

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Then 1971 happened and the inevitable fiscal face plant that followed.

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Violence, arson, and looting were the norm.

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But that birthed punk, hip-hop,

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and a downtown that learned to speak in spray paint.

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Then the Giuliani-Bloomberg boom of the 90s and early 2000s happened,

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and that one hit its first speed bump in the financial crisis of 2008.

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The decline didn't become obvious until 2015 or 2016.

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but it has been slow and almost inexorable since then.

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But here's the pattern.

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Every time the money left, the muses moved in.

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It's like the city has a built-in difficulty adjustment.

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When the block gets too rich to feel, it forks back to real.

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So here we are in late 2025.

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I had hoped the pandemic would be the final nail in the coffin of this cycle, but I was wrong.

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And here's how I think things will play out.

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Mamdani will play the role of the final catalyst.

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First, there will be capital flight.

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Then, crime will spike.

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Then, urban flight.

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Rents will collapse.

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And the creative, creatives, move back in.

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Trust the difficulty adjustment.

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It's a story as old as the stones on Canal Street.

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By the decade's end, the Renaissance shows up late and underdressed.

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Basement galleries humming, warehouse theaters cracking open, rooftop podcasts.

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Why, hello.

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And a thousand micro scenes stitched together by lightning payments, open protocols, and the oldest network of all, word of mouth.

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The city won't be saved by any politician

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It'll be saved the old way

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By kids with cheap rent and unreasonable confidence

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So builders, sharpen your chisels

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Writers, steal a table by the window and pay in sats

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Musicians, tune to the hum of the F-train

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When the boom forgets what it's for

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The bust remembers

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Bear markets are for building

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busted cities are for birthing.

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And if history keeps rhyming,

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New York is about to clear its throat.

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And with that, it is time to bring on our guest,

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Max Hillebrand.

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Welcome back to Plep Chain Radio, good sir.

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Well, what a sermon, Avi.

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That really is something special,

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especially when I hear it on 1.x speed.

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It's delightful.

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Excellent.

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I'm glad to be back.

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And yes, it's dire times, as so common outside of our beautiful bubble of freedom tech.

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But that's why we're in here, in the cave, in the rabbit hole,

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to make sure that there's some alternative to escape to.

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And inevitably, more people will want to leave the suffering of the first realm behind.

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We are ready.

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Yeah, exactly, Max.

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And we are fortunate.

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it. We've built this decentralized citadel today, where we feel like we belong anywhere we meet and

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hang out in the world. And I don't just mean you and I, we have a lot of friends. Bitcoin in that

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sense is a country. But from your vantage point as an outsider to New York, and I don't know if

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you've ever visited, Max, but everyone knows about New York and what it stands for, or at least what

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it once stood for. From your vantage point, what do you make of what's happened and how do you think

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it's going to play out? Yeah, New York always seems like a very

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bustling place and I prefer quiet. So I never really wanted to especially live there.

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Visiture might be cool, but never really made it. And yeah, from the outside, I mean,

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America is a crazy place.

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New York is kind of the pinnacle of American craziness.

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Well, not really, I guess, to some extent.

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But I think it's such a big city that you'll find whatever you're looking for.

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There are so many people there, so many different stories,

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so many different environments, circles that you could maneuver in.

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And, you know, I'm sure that the underground Bitcoin counter-economic scene is massive there.

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and I'm sure that you can get basically anything you want with Bitcoin

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if you're really looking into it and have the right connections.

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So yeah, the city is full of socialism and despair and political chaos

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and interventions into the market.

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That's all right, that's what the first realm does.

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It's optional, you don't have to suffer that much in it

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or at least you can work diligently to decrease the suffering

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that the first realm gives you.

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And, you know, that's all we can ask for.

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Yeah.

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Indeed.

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I think so many people

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live in cages of their own making.

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And part of it is the realization that,

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you know what, I hold the key

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and I can step out of this door

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whenever I want to.

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I do not have to participate

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in this clown show or in the suffering.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So much of the human existence that seems to be bad is actually consented to at least implicitly And while that for one why why do humans so easily just accept and and and welcome their own you know enslavement but on the other hand it it a very hopeful

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realization because hey then you can just stop doing it you know you just stop out and you opt

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out and you stop obeying the the authority that enslaves you and choose another route and and

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live in a more free existence.

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And Bitcoin obviously shows this on the monetary realm.

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Like, the Fed's gone mad.

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Every central bank has since their inception.

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They're just crazy institutions.

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What are you going to do?

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Like, become the most popular, freedom-loving politician and chant,

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end the Fed, and, you know, do a bunch of campus tours and spend so much money on big media.

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And, well, guess what?

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Ron Paul did that.

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and he didn't end the Fed or abolish the Fed or improve the Fed.

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So not much of a success.

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But on the other hand, you can, you know, chill on your couch,

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download an app, you know, earn some Bitcoin, send it to that wallet.

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And that's it. The Fed's gone for you.

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It's no longer in your direct realm of influence.

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Now, sure, because other people still get stolen from by the Fed.

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that puts you in a worse situation as well

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because your trading partners are less wealthy

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and less eager to be productive.

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So that sucks, but you just work only with Bitcoiners

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and all of a sudden everyone around you

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is using honest weights and measures, so to say.

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And that's very liberating.

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That's why we enjoy so much to go to Bitcoin tribe gatherings,

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like conferences, meetups, live podcast shows, whatever it is.

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Just taking a walk through the park with a friend

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and talk about Bitcoin and why it matters

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and how we can use it better.

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Because it's nice to hang out with people

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who share that common culture and mindset

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and vision for where the future ought to go.

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So treasure that and look for it and make it happen.

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if nobody around you is picking up the organizational direction,

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then, well, this is a task for you.

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So just go do it.

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Gather the Bitcoiners and talk.

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You know, and this is sort of,

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it ties into the notion of a galtz galtz, right?

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A digital galtz galtz, if you will.

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You just exit.

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You opt out of the system that's enslaving you, as you said.

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But at some level, the question still lingers, doesn't it, Max, which is what about your compassion for the rest of humanity?

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You're sort of taking the step.

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When I say you, I mean the abstract.

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The Bitcoin mistake is eventually just had enough and said, all right, you know what?

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I want to deal with this.

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I want to be with my people.

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I just want to transact freely, interact freely, speak freely.

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and I will find my gold's gulch and just move there.

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But where does compassion for the rest of humanity

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who might not be at this stage of courage or exasperation

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or whatever it might be, right?

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What happens?

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How does that play in, Max?

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Like, what do we do with our compassion for the rest of humanity?

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I would say that opting out is a compassionate thing to do for your fellow men on multiple levels.

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For one, first save yourself and then save the children.

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Because if you're not safe, then you can't help anyone else.

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And also by walking through the exit, you're showing others that there is an alternative.

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And so you're actively living the example of a better, freer existence and that can inspire and rescue people from the despair of fiat.

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And, you know, that is ultimately helpful.

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And now, I do think to some extent, once you understand the truth deeply

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and you know that others are misguided and are harming themselves,

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then to some extent you have a moral obligation to help out and to speak up

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and to offer advice, even if they slap you in the face, right?

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That's when Jesus turned the other cheek, right?

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When people were misguided and he spoke the truth and they didn't want to hear it, so they slapped his face.

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And so he turned the other cheek and continued speaking the truth, ready and accepting that he would get slapped again.

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That is what turning the other cheek actually means.

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And I think a lot of Bitcoiners live this, right?

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We don't shut up about Bitcoin, even when people slap us in the face twice.

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So, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. And, you know, our show, this conversation, I suspect, is going to be a lot about the different ways of opting out.

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And, you know, we discussed talking about the various cypherpunk projects that excite you.

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But before we get there, you know, you'd mentioned the possibility of underground markets, Bitcoin markets popping up in New York.

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I don't know if they exist, but in my upcoming sequel to 24 July 18th, there is an active, well, a fictionalized version, right, an active underground Bitcoin market in Harlem, fully unregulated and thriving.

237
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and Max

238
00:17:27,992 --> 00:17:30,652
I don't know if you remember this but about

239
00:17:30,652 --> 00:17:32,752
a year and a half

240
00:17:32,752 --> 00:17:34,832
ago when I first started writing this book

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00:17:34,832 --> 00:17:36,332
I

242
00:17:36,332 --> 00:17:38,412
reached out to you because

243
00:17:38,412 --> 00:17:40,692
there's a, without giving

244
00:17:40,692 --> 00:17:42,652
anything away about the book, there's a situation

245
00:17:42,652 --> 00:17:44,932
where one of the characters

246
00:17:44,932 --> 00:17:46,552
essentially needs to

247
00:17:46,552 --> 00:17:48,352
perform a spell of invisibility

248
00:17:48,352 --> 00:17:49,792
on their Bitcoin

249
00:17:49,792 --> 00:17:51,852
and I was

250
00:17:51,852 --> 00:17:54,512
I think he was still with Wasabi back then so I

251
00:17:54,512 --> 00:17:57,172
I reached out and said, Max, I want to build something.

252
00:17:57,392 --> 00:18:00,012
I want to write something fictional, but also plausible.

253
00:18:01,392 --> 00:18:03,112
So how best to go about it?

254
00:18:03,112 --> 00:18:06,012
And, you know, you walk me through, obviously a single coin join is great,

255
00:18:06,092 --> 00:18:08,472
but you walk, the more the better, right?

256
00:18:09,292 --> 00:18:13,152
And then you can, a few other things you can tweak along the way.

257
00:18:13,312 --> 00:18:14,992
So that is in the book.

258
00:18:15,052 --> 00:18:16,172
That's made it to the book, Max.

259
00:18:16,172 --> 00:18:18,012
I don't know if you remember this conversation.

260
00:18:18,212 --> 00:18:18,772
Yeah, absolutely.

261
00:18:19,472 --> 00:18:19,692
Yeah.

262
00:18:19,932 --> 00:18:23,532
And it's great to see like plausible fiction, right?

263
00:18:23,532 --> 00:18:27,692
Because then there is more of an anchor to reality for it.

264
00:18:27,892 --> 00:18:31,692
And it seems more applicable in the life of the reader.

265
00:18:32,312 --> 00:18:41,352
So I'm really glad that you're doing your due diligence on more of the technical sides to give a solid foundation to the world that you're building.

266
00:18:42,572 --> 00:18:43,132
Yeah.

267
00:18:43,652 --> 00:18:48,592
So thank you for that, Max, for that conversation we had a year and a half ago.

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00:18:48,592 --> 00:18:59,472
So anyway, so let's talk about when we can go through these one by one in any order you want or no particular order.

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00:19:00,012 --> 00:19:11,592
But I think the meat of our conversation, I'd like it to be the cypherpunk projects that excite you the most that are taking place.

270
00:19:12,212 --> 00:19:14,712
So do you want to start with the first one, Max?

271
00:19:14,712 --> 00:19:21,972
yeah i i think when we're talking about cyberspace it's it's good to start from the

272
00:19:21,972 --> 00:19:31,172
kind of base layer and so what's interesting in the hardware realm um tropic square uh the the

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00:19:31,172 --> 00:19:37,892
new open source secure element from trezor is like they released it and that's already a miracle

274
00:19:37,892 --> 00:19:44,212
when they first announced that they're going to work on a fully 100 open source chip a secure

275
00:19:44,212 --> 00:19:49,252
element without any and the a's needing to sign for the developers etc everyone in the

276
00:19:49,252 --> 00:19:55,132
industry told them that's impossible you'll run out of money like ridiculous why would you even

277
00:19:55,132 --> 00:20:02,712
attempt this right and they were mad enough to continue the journey for like i think it's been

278
00:20:02,712 --> 00:20:08,672
five years or more and and now they've actually shipped something that so many people told them

279
00:20:08,672 --> 00:20:15,312
it's impossible. And I think that's just a perfect example of if we really want to have

280
00:20:15,312 --> 00:20:23,252
great tools according to our ethos, then we can just do it. And sure, it might be expensive,

281
00:20:23,252 --> 00:20:30,632
especially if you have big dreams and Bitcoiners dream big. But also, some Bitcoiners got really

282
00:20:30,632 --> 00:20:39,332
rich and that allows us now to to allocate funding and capital to those crazy cypherpunk wet dreams

283
00:20:39,332 --> 00:20:44,012
that that would take humanity to the next level and that's that's exactly what's happening now

284
00:20:44,012 --> 00:20:49,792
on a hardware level which is incredibly hard uh but but yeah those chips are out you can you can

285
00:20:49,792 --> 00:20:54,172
buy them uh you can hack with them you can you know put them in your product and sell them to

286
00:20:54,172 --> 00:21:02,692
millions that's that's amazing um is this sort of equivalent to what's happening on the mining

287
00:21:02,692 --> 00:21:09,672
side with bit axes oh yeah um no a bit lower level because so the what the bit axe does that's another

288
00:21:09,672 --> 00:21:16,032
really cool project hardware wise so good that you bring that up the the bit x started by they

289
00:21:16,032 --> 00:21:23,932
they bought like existing miners existing big asics from big suppliers and they they ripped

290
00:21:23,932 --> 00:21:30,692
them apart and took the motherboards and desoldered the actual ASIC mining chips from the already

291
00:21:30,692 --> 00:21:38,572
done machine and they put them back on a smaller motherboard for like a you know small scale USB

292
00:21:38,572 --> 00:21:46,012
powered or small powered miner they lose a bunch of chips this way right so they have the problem

293
00:21:46,012 --> 00:21:49,752
that they don't have access to this ASIC chip

294
00:21:49,752 --> 00:21:52,612
on like a more hacker basis, right?

295
00:21:53,072 --> 00:21:55,892
Because it's all just huge scale manufacturing

296
00:21:55,892 --> 00:21:57,152
and not really made for them.

297
00:21:57,592 --> 00:21:59,632
So they had to do all types of hacks

298
00:21:59,632 --> 00:22:01,872
to create their products

299
00:22:01,872 --> 00:22:03,632
and which by now has so many iterations,

300
00:22:03,812 --> 00:22:04,772
all open source as well.

301
00:22:05,392 --> 00:22:07,812
But they do rely on a closed source chip.

302
00:22:08,752 --> 00:22:10,212
And so what Trezor did

303
00:22:10,212 --> 00:22:12,172
is they actually worked on the chip,

304
00:22:12,792 --> 00:22:13,952
not a mining chip,

305
00:22:14,032 --> 00:22:15,992
but a hardware wallet chip, so to say, right?

306
00:22:16,012 --> 00:22:18,772
a chip that's designed to keep your secrets secure.

307
00:22:19,212 --> 00:22:21,772
Even if someone has physical access to the chip

308
00:22:21,772 --> 00:22:23,972
and they have like a million-dollar laboratory

309
00:22:23,972 --> 00:22:28,352
with all the fancy lasers and scanners and whatever equipment,

310
00:22:28,932 --> 00:22:31,172
they should still not be able to get to the secrets.

311
00:22:31,612 --> 00:22:34,152
That's kind of the level of security that they're aiming for,

312
00:22:34,732 --> 00:22:36,452
but without any obscurity.

313
00:22:36,992 --> 00:22:40,272
So there's no hidden backdoors or something

314
00:22:40,272 --> 00:22:43,412
that might make an attacker who doesn't know about it more difficult.

315
00:22:44,012 --> 00:22:45,092
This is all in the open.

316
00:22:45,092 --> 00:22:52,972
this is exactly how it works and it's still secure and that's quite powerful so for folks

317
00:22:52,972 --> 00:23:00,032
who are less technical max who are wondering what exactly this means for them how how it translates

318
00:23:00,032 --> 00:23:09,152
into i guess user empowerment how would it this breakthrough well today just go buy a treasure 7

319
00:23:09,152 --> 00:23:14,232
and that's their latest edition of the hardware wallet and this includes this secure element that

320
00:23:14,232 --> 00:23:19,592
they've been working on. And the end result is your private keys will be more secure. If someone

321
00:23:19,592 --> 00:23:34,084
gets physical holds on your treasure they can get to the keys But on top of that you can be more sure that there is no hidden backdoor somewhere in the chip that actually does leak your data if something like this would exist

322
00:23:34,084 --> 00:23:39,804
the developers of other hardware wallets could not tell you because they needed to sign a

323
00:23:39,804 --> 00:23:45,504
non-disclosure agreement before being allowed to to see that this type of malware exists

324
00:23:45,504 --> 00:23:50,884
and then and then well maybe they still added it into their hardware and maybe later they or

325
00:23:50,884 --> 00:23:52,864
someone else might exploit some

326
00:23:52,864 --> 00:23:54,864
vulnerability that was there in this chip all

327
00:23:54,864 --> 00:23:56,824
along, but only the people

328
00:23:56,824 --> 00:23:58,204
involved actually knew about it.

329
00:23:58,764 --> 00:24:00,684
It's a bit of a far-fetched

330
00:24:00,684 --> 00:24:02,224
attack.

331
00:24:02,844 --> 00:24:04,784
It's not super likely that this

332
00:24:04,784 --> 00:24:06,744
comes, but it could. And so

333
00:24:06,744 --> 00:24:08,584
having yet another chip is

334
00:24:08,584 --> 00:24:10,844
quite cool. And another benefit that you get

335
00:24:10,844 --> 00:24:12,604
of supporting the

336
00:24:12,604 --> 00:24:14,904
builders of this is that they'll keep building.

337
00:24:15,844 --> 00:24:16,624
So, yeah.

338
00:24:16,964 --> 00:24:18,884
Play around with it. Buy 1 by 10

339
00:24:18,884 --> 00:24:20,344
and give them to friends. Why not?

340
00:24:20,884 --> 00:24:23,564
So let's piece this together for our listeners.

341
00:24:24,604 --> 00:24:26,464
The latest Trezor, the Trezor 7,

342
00:24:26,564 --> 00:24:28,584
I think it launched like a few weeks back, right?

343
00:24:28,664 --> 00:24:31,764
There was a big event in Prague.

344
00:24:32,804 --> 00:24:36,004
That hardware wallet is built

345
00:24:36,004 --> 00:24:39,364
using this open source secure element specification, right?

346
00:24:40,464 --> 00:24:45,664
Anyone, any developer can look up that specification,

347
00:24:45,804 --> 00:24:47,784
if there's new malware or whatever it is, right?

348
00:24:47,844 --> 00:24:50,704
They'll be able, because the specification is open source,

349
00:24:50,884 --> 00:24:54,344
they'll be able to know exactly what's going on,

350
00:24:54,684 --> 00:24:56,364
how secure something is, right?

351
00:24:56,444 --> 00:24:57,564
Is that the idea here?

352
00:24:59,304 --> 00:25:00,424
Yeah, exactly.

353
00:25:00,904 --> 00:25:04,084
And now you will be able to buy other devices

354
00:25:04,084 --> 00:25:06,524
that have implemented this chip as well.

355
00:25:06,724 --> 00:25:09,844
Like for example, maybe the next iteration of BitAxis

356
00:25:09,844 --> 00:25:12,564
will have a hardware wallet included as well.

357
00:25:12,564 --> 00:25:15,064
Next to the ASIC chip is the Tropic Square chip.

358
00:25:15,604 --> 00:25:17,144
The ASICs mines you the Bitcoin

359
00:25:17,144 --> 00:25:18,964
and the Tropic Square chip,

360
00:25:18,964 --> 00:25:21,304
they store the Bitcoin or the private keys.

361
00:25:22,104 --> 00:25:24,104
So why not put this all together?

362
00:25:24,624 --> 00:25:27,204
If we have open hardware that we can all use

363
00:25:27,204 --> 00:25:28,284
and develop on top of,

364
00:25:28,664 --> 00:25:30,704
then we can do all types of crazy ideas like this.

365
00:25:34,624 --> 00:25:35,144
Yeah.

366
00:25:36,384 --> 00:25:41,284
So last thing on this cypherpunk idea that excites you.

367
00:25:42,104 --> 00:25:44,364
So you've mentioned one potential use case

368
00:25:44,364 --> 00:25:49,304
where a BitX has a hardware wallet baked into it.

369
00:25:50,404 --> 00:25:54,504
Where do you see this playing out in the next five years?

370
00:25:54,724 --> 00:25:56,584
What are the best case scenarios

371
00:25:56,584 --> 00:26:02,924
for this Trezor open sourcing the secure element?

372
00:26:05,064 --> 00:26:06,724
You know, there was this whale

373
00:26:06,724 --> 00:26:11,304
who sent 80,000 Bitcoin to the exchange.

374
00:26:11,304 --> 00:26:19,264
let's assume this guy is liquidating his bitcoin position to fund you know as much hardware and

375
00:26:19,264 --> 00:26:25,084
software freedom tech as possible and let's see where that could take us in in five years

376
00:26:25,084 --> 00:26:33,824
that that would be quite cool i i think there's a really cool or really interesting philosophy of

377
00:26:33,824 --> 00:26:39,504
we're currently using like a hundred dollar devices like cheap plastic hardware wallets

378
00:26:39,504 --> 00:26:43,464
to protect multi-generational wealth of the hardest money ever, right?

379
00:26:43,544 --> 00:26:48,184
That's maybe, or maybe we could do better.

380
00:26:48,704 --> 00:26:50,944
What if we didn't have a budget for,

381
00:26:51,884 --> 00:26:54,404
like how much can we spend on protecting our Bitcoin?

382
00:26:54,964 --> 00:26:58,044
Like what if you had like, you know, a lot of budget?

383
00:26:58,904 --> 00:27:00,524
How crazy could you get?

384
00:27:01,124 --> 00:27:03,524
And I think we'll start to see this

385
00:27:03,524 --> 00:27:05,484
because the people who have a lot of Bitcoin

386
00:27:05,484 --> 00:27:08,224
are starting to realize that they really, really, really

387
00:27:08,224 --> 00:27:09,644
need secure computers.

388
00:27:10,224 --> 00:27:11,684
If they don't have secure computers,

389
00:27:12,244 --> 00:27:13,364
their Bitcoin is fucked.

390
00:27:14,104 --> 00:27:17,604
And that will incentivize the next wave of builders.

391
00:27:18,544 --> 00:27:21,564
And hopefully we'll build on interoperable standards

392
00:27:21,564 --> 00:27:24,964
and open source protocols and technologies

393
00:27:24,964 --> 00:27:28,624
so that the rising tide lifts all boats

394
00:27:28,624 --> 00:27:30,944
and we can all benefit from the innovations of others.

395
00:27:33,404 --> 00:27:33,964
Yeah.

396
00:27:36,044 --> 00:27:38,004
Certainly lots to look forward to on that.

397
00:27:38,224 --> 00:27:40,404
All right, Max, let's move to the second idea.

398
00:27:40,604 --> 00:27:41,224
What have you got?

399
00:27:43,164 --> 00:27:47,264
Yeah, so once you have hardware, you need a good software on this,

400
00:27:47,304 --> 00:27:48,864
and it starts with an operating system.

401
00:27:49,684 --> 00:27:51,924
And most people use phones nowadays,

402
00:27:52,124 --> 00:27:54,824
so one project definitely worth a shout-out is Graphene OS.

403
00:27:55,484 --> 00:28:01,544
That's an Android operating system focused on security and privacy.

404
00:28:02,184 --> 00:28:06,464
You can install it on Google Pixel devices at the moment only,

405
00:28:06,464 --> 00:28:10,884
which is a bit of a shame and Google is being more and more of a pain in the ass of closing down this

406
00:28:10,884 --> 00:28:14,404
option of installing an alternative operating system securely.

407
00:28:15,104 --> 00:28:21,064
So to get back to the hardware question, GrapheneOS has now made a deal with another hardware producer

408
00:28:21,064 --> 00:28:24,444
to produce hardware that is compatible with GrapheneOS.

409
00:28:25,164 --> 00:28:33,244
So this is quite encouraging that now other hardware producers actually want to open up their hardware

410
00:28:33,244 --> 00:28:36,824
such that alternative operating systems like Graphene OS can be run

411
00:28:36,824 --> 00:28:39,864
for purpose-built, secure communications.

412
00:28:41,064 --> 00:28:42,244
That's really encouraging.

413
00:28:42,504 --> 00:28:44,204
And hopefully there will be more there to come.

414
00:28:44,324 --> 00:28:46,864
But if you really want to take an actionable step

415
00:28:46,864 --> 00:28:50,044
of improving your digital sovereignty and security,

416
00:28:51,104 --> 00:28:54,524
my first recommendation to almost anyone,

417
00:28:54,684 --> 00:28:58,324
if you have a little bit of budget, not unlimited budget,

418
00:28:58,324 --> 00:29:00,924
as the guy with 80,000 Bitcoin, but a little bit of budget,

419
00:29:00,924 --> 00:29:04,264
and a couple days worth of time

420
00:29:04,264 --> 00:29:07,564
then start by getting yourself a Google Pixel phone

421
00:29:07,564 --> 00:29:09,144
flash the Graphene operating system

422
00:29:09,144 --> 00:29:11,364
get familiar with how to use it

423
00:29:11,364 --> 00:29:15,284
and then continue installing open source

424
00:29:15,284 --> 00:29:16,984
and secure applications on there

425
00:29:16,984 --> 00:29:19,204
some of them we'll mention in a bit

426
00:29:19,204 --> 00:29:22,684
but with Graphene you really have a solid foundation

427
00:29:22,684 --> 00:29:26,204
where your phone kind of turns in the hardware wallet

428
00:29:26,204 --> 00:29:28,744
the original idea of the hardware wallet is that

429
00:29:28,744 --> 00:29:31,644
a 12-word paper backup is insecure.

430
00:29:32,244 --> 00:29:34,744
If someone gets the physical copy, he knows the secret.

431
00:29:35,344 --> 00:29:37,984
So let's create a computer that's hard to crack into,

432
00:29:38,184 --> 00:29:39,464
and we can put the secret there.

433
00:29:40,024 --> 00:29:42,244
And then if someone gets physical access to the computer,

434
00:29:42,364 --> 00:29:43,184
they don't get the secrets.

435
00:29:44,104 --> 00:29:47,924
Well, initially we needed to make tailor-made custom devices

436
00:29:47,924 --> 00:29:49,984
just for Bitcoin to make that secure.

437
00:29:50,464 --> 00:29:53,764
What Graphene OS has achieved is to do it with something as complex as a phone.

438
00:29:53,984 --> 00:29:56,884
And so your phone kind of turns into a hardware wallet,

439
00:29:56,884 --> 00:29:59,844
meaning that if a bad guy gets hold of your physical phone

440
00:29:59,844 --> 00:30:01,024
but he doesn't know the password

441
00:30:01,024 --> 00:30:02,804
he cannot get anything

442
00:30:02,804 --> 00:30:05,724
he cannot even connect the USB cable to it

443
00:30:05,724 --> 00:30:07,484
like he won't get any data out of it

444
00:30:07,484 --> 00:30:09,524
there's so many layers of defense there

445
00:30:09,524 --> 00:30:12,704
that you can really rest assured

446
00:30:12,704 --> 00:30:15,944
that your phone is not easy to compromise

447
00:30:15,944 --> 00:30:17,564
and doesn't spy on you so much

448
00:30:17,564 --> 00:30:21,564
Is there anything on the Horizon Max

449
00:30:21,564 --> 00:30:24,284
where the phone's hardware specification

450
00:30:24,284 --> 00:30:25,744
is fully open sourced?

451
00:30:26,884 --> 00:30:30,844
that I imagine is still a while away.

452
00:30:31,984 --> 00:30:33,864
We will get there, I think,

453
00:30:34,504 --> 00:30:36,844
but it's a lot of work.

454
00:30:37,284 --> 00:30:39,344
So there are some projects

455
00:30:39,344 --> 00:30:41,984
that have progressively more and more open source access,

456
00:30:42,484 --> 00:30:45,304
but the thing is, especially the chips, right?

457
00:30:45,304 --> 00:30:47,924
Specifically, for example, the mobile chip,

458
00:30:48,264 --> 00:30:50,484
like the thing that gives you internet, right?

459
00:30:50,504 --> 00:30:51,804
The 4G, 5G connection.

460
00:30:52,284 --> 00:30:55,304
This chip is crazy, like proprietary.

461
00:30:55,304 --> 00:31:02,464
it's closed it's probably backdoored like crazy and there is no way like there is no open source

462
00:31:02,464 --> 00:31:08,144
chip available that provides you this type of service that's what government monopolies get you

463
00:31:08,144 --> 00:31:17,264
yay for that so we need a tropic square moment for chips like the the broadband and that will

464
00:31:17,264 --> 00:31:23,364
we don't just need one moment like that we need like 10 different chips or probably more that

465
00:31:23,364 --> 00:31:29,464
would need to be open sourced which is a multi-million dollar investment and you know i

466
00:31:29,464 --> 00:31:36,744
definitely see why the tropic square uh bet will pay off because they're dealing with bitcoin uh

467
00:31:36,744 --> 00:31:45,084
but for a regular phone uh you know difficult to to make this work but not impossible well let's

468
00:31:45,084 --> 00:31:51,204
that's an interesting thing that you brought up the 4g 5g the trans receiver transmitter chip

469
00:31:51,204 --> 00:31:55,044
isn't, and I haven't looked into this too deeply, Max,

470
00:31:55,064 --> 00:31:57,404
but my understanding is the spectrum itself

471
00:31:57,404 --> 00:32:01,084
is entirely permissioned.

472
00:32:01,484 --> 00:32:05,383
And the gatekeeper is some kind of federal regulator.

473
00:32:05,904 --> 00:32:08,164
So even if you were to open source the,

474
00:32:08,464 --> 00:32:10,544
figure out how to crack the chip and open source it,

475
00:32:11,284 --> 00:32:14,324
you're still going to have that bottleneck

476
00:32:14,324 --> 00:32:16,144
of the regulator saying, well, yeah,

477
00:32:16,144 --> 00:32:18,904
I control the spectrum, so you can't have a piece of it.

478
00:32:20,364 --> 00:32:20,784
Yeah, exactly.

479
00:32:20,784 --> 00:32:27,724
but guess what there's pirate radio you know for for decades already like freedom lovers have just

480
00:32:27,724 --> 00:32:33,124
used the airwaves to to send their messages you know there's rules that you cannot send encrypted

481
00:32:33,124 --> 00:32:40,544
data via radio etc because that's military-grade technology or whatnot you know so there's there's

482
00:32:40,544 --> 00:32:46,724
stupid bureaucracy on on many levels but ultimately you know as long as your hardware

483
00:32:46,724 --> 00:32:49,484
accepts the laws of physics, it works.

484
00:32:50,424 --> 00:32:54,164
So at some point, the enforcers will run out of money

485
00:32:54,164 --> 00:32:57,304
and people will see that resisting the stupid rules

486
00:32:57,304 --> 00:32:59,784
gives them a lot of benefits and they will.

487
00:32:59,944 --> 00:33:03,304
And some courageous entrepreneurs will make some helpful products

488
00:33:03,304 --> 00:33:05,724
on the hardware and software level and they'll probably get rich.

489
00:33:08,244 --> 00:33:14,684
But that one sounds like it's a decade away, just at least.

490
00:33:14,684 --> 00:33:20,084
and assuming freedom go up in the human heart

491
00:33:20,084 --> 00:33:23,144
because sometimes I look around and other than Becker

492
00:33:23,144 --> 00:33:25,524
and I wonder if anyone actually wants to be free.

493
00:33:27,604 --> 00:33:32,224
Well, I think people are tricked into not caring about that question.

494
00:33:33,224 --> 00:33:38,124
I think inherently the human nature depends on freedom.

495
00:33:38,524 --> 00:33:42,364
Like without freedom, the human spirit suffers too much.

496
00:33:42,364 --> 00:33:52,824
so yeah it's it's sad but you know on the bright side there there is the opt-out so we have that

497
00:33:52,824 --> 00:34:03,364
yeah all right do you uh anything else on graphene os because i think one of the actually

498
00:34:03,364 --> 00:34:09,964
you know what on the graphene uh one itself right the one thing that's bugged me is that today it's

499
00:34:09,964 --> 00:34:10,784
only Google Pixel.

500
00:34:11,864 --> 00:34:15,564
And who knows what's on that device, right?

501
00:34:15,944 --> 00:34:18,224
Yes, you're going to flash it with Graphene OS,

502
00:34:18,464 --> 00:34:21,224
but what kind of hardware backdoors exist

503
00:34:21,224 --> 00:34:22,684
that you're unaware of?

504
00:34:23,924 --> 00:34:24,124
Yep.

505
00:34:24,804 --> 00:34:27,383
Yeah, it's a big, it's an issue, right?

506
00:34:27,604 --> 00:34:30,484
Graphene OS will protect against some of these attacks,

507
00:34:30,604 --> 00:34:32,604
but most probably not all of them.

508
00:34:33,304 --> 00:34:35,164
And if you're a big enough target,

509
00:34:35,264 --> 00:34:37,464
they will be exploited, likely.

510
00:34:37,464 --> 00:34:44,744
Hopefully it's not that cheap of an attack that it can be done by a script kitty somewhere very easily on anyone.

511
00:34:45,044 --> 00:34:47,644
That would be bad, but I hope it's not that bad.

512
00:34:49,064 --> 00:34:51,124
But yeah, let's install some apps on there.

513
00:34:51,924 --> 00:34:57,604
So I guess first let's deal with your network level privacy because we want to download the future apps privately.

514
00:34:58,424 --> 00:35:00,064
By the way, Max, I love this.

515
00:35:00,124 --> 00:35:00,964
I love this progression.

516
00:35:01,184 --> 00:35:04,244
We're starting at the most base layer, working our way up.

517
00:35:04,244 --> 00:35:14,095
at some point we reach the human layer when we talking about Cypherpunk projects So love it Carry on Yeah so get Tor the Onion Router

518
00:35:14,555 --> 00:35:17,535
It's like the Lightning Network, but for communication.

519
00:35:17,535 --> 00:35:20,835
And so you can send a request to download a website,

520
00:35:21,095 --> 00:35:23,795
but through multiple computers, through the internet,

521
00:35:24,255 --> 00:35:26,876
before you actually go to whatever website you want to visit.

522
00:35:27,396 --> 00:35:28,896
And so that gives you quite a lot of privacy.

523
00:35:30,295 --> 00:35:33,555
Fewer people will know which websites you're visiting.

524
00:35:33,555 --> 00:35:35,436
and for how long, etc.

525
00:35:36,075 --> 00:35:39,835
You know, the NSA still knows they can break the Tor network.

526
00:35:40,095 --> 00:35:45,275
So we need stronger technology to protect against these types of adversaries.

527
00:35:45,396 --> 00:35:47,775
But at least the website operator shouldn't know.

528
00:35:47,775 --> 00:35:54,575
And that's often useful if you don't want to know that the website operator knows that you,

529
00:35:54,856 --> 00:35:58,055
this IP address at this location is connecting to his servers.

530
00:35:58,436 --> 00:35:59,175
Tor is great for that.

531
00:35:59,175 --> 00:36:03,535
Orbot is a VPN application that runs the Tor network.

532
00:36:03,856 --> 00:36:04,615
It's free to use.

533
00:36:05,135 --> 00:36:06,456
It works perfectly fine.

534
00:36:06,856 --> 00:36:09,456
It's a bit slower than other VPNs,

535
00:36:09,835 --> 00:36:13,315
but it's free and more censorship resistant

536
00:36:13,315 --> 00:36:16,515
and arguably more private,

537
00:36:16,856 --> 00:36:19,115
depending exactly on how you look at it.

538
00:36:19,436 --> 00:36:20,896
But VPNs are another good solution.

539
00:36:21,735 --> 00:36:23,795
There's a couple good ones to mention.

540
00:36:24,356 --> 00:36:28,295
Molvat and iVPN are two quite popular OG solutions

541
00:36:28,295 --> 00:36:29,916
that have been accepting Bitcoin since forever.

542
00:36:30,715 --> 00:36:32,595
And there's also a couple new ones.

543
00:36:33,436 --> 00:36:38,475
For example, Obscura is a kind of two-hop VPN

544
00:36:38,475 --> 00:36:40,155
with two different companies.

545
00:36:40,315 --> 00:36:42,255
So the Obscura company makes the first hop

546
00:36:42,255 --> 00:36:44,396
and then Mulvart makes the second hop.

547
00:36:44,515 --> 00:36:48,835
And presumably Mulvart and Obscura don't work together.

548
00:36:49,315 --> 00:36:51,095
And so you have a nice two-hop separation

549
00:36:51,095 --> 00:36:52,235
and different jurisdictions.

550
00:36:52,936 --> 00:36:53,735
That's quite useful.

551
00:36:54,515 --> 00:36:57,735
You also have, for example, the NIM VPN.

552
00:36:57,735 --> 00:36:59,155
NIM is a mixnet.

553
00:36:59,696 --> 00:37:01,635
It's a little bit like Tor,

554
00:37:02,255 --> 00:37:05,175
but it adds random timing delays with each hop.

555
00:37:05,436 --> 00:37:06,795
And these random timing delays

556
00:37:06,795 --> 00:37:09,416
makes it so that even the NSA has difficulties

557
00:37:09,416 --> 00:37:11,715
to spy on the network traffic.

558
00:37:12,376 --> 00:37:15,916
So Tor is worse in this regard than mixnets.

559
00:37:16,436 --> 00:37:18,795
But mixnets are even slower than Tor

560
00:37:18,795 --> 00:37:20,715
because of these random timing delays.

561
00:37:21,215 --> 00:37:24,255
And so they're very much not good for watching 4K videos

562
00:37:24,255 --> 00:37:26,115
or doing a live stream to NOSTER.

563
00:37:26,115 --> 00:37:28,075
but they're very much good enough

564
00:37:28,075 --> 00:37:30,835
for downloading your NOSTER posts or whatnot.

565
00:37:31,436 --> 00:37:33,015
So for text messages and so on,

566
00:37:33,135 --> 00:37:34,575
that's what it's designed for.

567
00:37:34,715 --> 00:37:38,655
Originally, that's what the original email remailers were about.

568
00:37:39,535 --> 00:37:40,995
They were early mixnets.

569
00:37:41,635 --> 00:37:44,795
So yeah, that's how to protect your IP address

570
00:37:44,795 --> 00:37:47,936
so that others don't know where exactly you're calling in from.

571
00:37:50,575 --> 00:37:51,295
Love it.

572
00:37:51,835 --> 00:37:53,896
Let's keep moving up the stack, Max.

573
00:37:53,896 --> 00:37:55,936
I'm waiting for the Bitcoin and NOSTER part

574
00:37:55,936 --> 00:37:57,975
because that's where I'm going to jump in

575
00:37:57,975 --> 00:37:59,575
and have a lot more questions.

576
00:37:59,975 --> 00:38:01,655
This is all great stuff, by the way.

577
00:38:02,075 --> 00:38:04,936
Yeah, so let's keep moving up or down the stack,

578
00:38:05,135 --> 00:38:07,675
whichever way you orient yourself, I guess.

579
00:38:08,356 --> 00:38:09,495
Yeah, that's the thing, right?

580
00:38:09,515 --> 00:38:10,956
People are always so eager to like,

581
00:38:11,015 --> 00:38:12,916
yeah, let's receive and send Bitcoin.

582
00:38:13,115 --> 00:38:14,376
Let's start shitposting on Luster.

583
00:38:14,696 --> 00:38:18,555
But actually, take your time.

584
00:38:19,015 --> 00:38:20,215
Consider this from the ground up

585
00:38:20,215 --> 00:38:21,615
because if you're new to this,

586
00:38:21,635 --> 00:38:23,715
you have a cool opportunity to really start out

587
00:38:23,715 --> 00:38:25,015
on a solid ground.

588
00:38:25,015 --> 00:38:29,255
and it starts with good hardware, good operating system, good network level privacy.

589
00:38:30,055 --> 00:38:32,775
And then next for me is always a password manager.

590
00:38:33,215 --> 00:38:35,815
You need a tool that helps you remember your secrets

591
00:38:35,815 --> 00:38:38,555
because you're going to deal with a lot of secrets.

592
00:38:38,956 --> 00:38:40,675
If you want to be secure in cyberspace,

593
00:38:41,196 --> 00:38:45,675
you better learn how to generate and remember and store secrets for the long run.

594
00:38:45,936 --> 00:38:52,416
That's the only, that's the root into security that we have in so many different tools,

595
00:38:52,515 --> 00:38:53,876
including Bitcoin, including Noster.

596
00:38:53,876 --> 00:38:56,135
so we need a password manager

597
00:38:56,135 --> 00:38:58,275
keypass is a very good solution

598
00:38:58,275 --> 00:39:00,055
there's a bunch of different implementations

599
00:39:00,055 --> 00:39:02,335
look for keypass xc

600
00:39:02,335 --> 00:39:03,755
is a good option

601
00:39:03,755 --> 00:39:06,075
bitwarden another one

602
00:39:06,075 --> 00:39:07,775
bitwarden kind of is built more around

603
00:39:07,775 --> 00:39:09,715
you have a server available

604
00:39:09,715 --> 00:39:12,396
and in that world it's quite good

605
00:39:12,396 --> 00:39:14,356
you can self host this bitwarden instance

606
00:39:14,356 --> 00:39:16,235
on your own hardware

607
00:39:16,235 --> 00:39:18,515
but

608
00:39:18,515 --> 00:39:20,695
keypass is another

609
00:39:20,695 --> 00:39:22,095
solution that

610
00:39:22,095 --> 00:39:24,095
is just a database, right?

611
00:39:24,135 --> 00:39:27,255
You get a file and the file is encrypted with a password.

612
00:39:27,635 --> 00:39:29,615
And if you type in the file and the password

613
00:39:29,615 --> 00:39:31,835
into this key password manager,

614
00:39:32,476 --> 00:39:34,956
then you get access to the passwords

615
00:39:34,956 --> 00:39:37,896
and how you store the file and synchronize the file

616
00:39:37,896 --> 00:39:38,956
is kind of left up to you.

617
00:39:39,515 --> 00:39:41,376
So, you know, if it's important secrets,

618
00:39:41,896 --> 00:39:44,655
why not put them in the password manager

619
00:39:44,655 --> 00:39:47,275
with a strong password that encrypts them

620
00:39:47,275 --> 00:39:51,476
and get a hundred cheap USB sticks

621
00:39:51,476 --> 00:39:55,535
I copied that encrypted database on all of these USB sticks.

622
00:39:56,035 --> 00:39:57,695
You know, data is cheap to copy, why not?

623
00:39:58,376 --> 00:40:02,495
And now you can hide these 100 USB sticks,

624
00:40:02,555 --> 00:40:05,555
not only in your home, but in your office, in your gym,

625
00:40:06,015 --> 00:40:09,835
in the park, in like the electricity cabinet on the street.

626
00:40:10,695 --> 00:40:13,655
You know, there is so many places

627
00:40:13,655 --> 00:40:15,735
where you can hide a small USB stick.

628
00:40:16,376 --> 00:40:20,495
And then you know that whenever you somehow are stranded

629
00:40:20,495 --> 00:40:25,695
and you have no computers whatsoever,

630
00:40:26,396 --> 00:40:29,335
you just have to go to the city, go to this random spot,

631
00:40:29,775 --> 00:40:31,175
check if the USB stick is there.

632
00:40:31,535 --> 00:40:32,916
If not, it doesn't matter.

633
00:40:33,035 --> 00:40:34,856
If someone else found it, they don't have the password,

634
00:40:34,995 --> 00:40:36,675
so they cannot decrypt it.

635
00:40:37,075 --> 00:40:39,295
And you still have 99 other hideouts,

636
00:40:39,416 --> 00:40:41,155
and one of them is probably there.

637
00:40:41,655 --> 00:40:44,456
So that's quite a bulletproof way of making sure

638
00:40:44,456 --> 00:40:46,515
that you will never forget your secrets.

639
00:40:50,495 --> 00:40:54,055
But let's talk about the concept of a password itself.

640
00:40:55,195 --> 00:41:02,635
Have we reached the point where maybe passwords themselves get phased out?

641
00:41:04,035 --> 00:41:05,095
Or not yet?

642
00:41:05,095 --> 00:41:12,135
Well, passwords in the sense of, like in the traditional sense, what a password is, is there is a computer somewhere.

643
00:41:12,356 --> 00:41:13,075
It's always online.

644
00:41:13,175 --> 00:41:13,916
It's called a server.

645
00:41:13,916 --> 00:41:17,976
and you are a user and you want to connect to the server

646
00:41:17,976 --> 00:41:20,976
and download some data, maybe upload some data.

647
00:41:21,735 --> 00:41:25,575
And now the question is, will that server allow you?

648
00:41:26,416 --> 00:41:29,775
Because behind that server is a human called the server administrator

649
00:41:29,775 --> 00:41:32,295
and he can choose what software runs on the server.

650
00:41:32,856 --> 00:41:35,795
And the software he runs might say that, you know,

651
00:41:35,876 --> 00:41:39,436
only people who've registered with me can actually connect to the server

652
00:41:39,436 --> 00:41:40,715
and download and upload data.

653
00:41:41,535 --> 00:41:42,936
And how do you register?

654
00:41:43,175 --> 00:41:45,075
By defining a username and a password.

655
00:41:45,675 --> 00:41:48,795
So in this environment, if you want to use a service,

656
00:41:49,356 --> 00:41:51,735
then you have to ask the administrator,

657
00:41:51,916 --> 00:41:54,396
hey, please, is this username available?

658
00:41:54,995 --> 00:41:56,135
Can I use this password?

659
00:41:56,815 --> 00:41:59,795
And so the username is kind of a public-facing identity,

660
00:42:00,055 --> 00:42:01,795
something that other people could see,

661
00:42:01,795 --> 00:42:04,675
hey, this username uploaded this data or whatever.

662
00:42:05,295 --> 00:42:10,055
But the password is supposed to remain private

663
00:42:10,055 --> 00:42:12,755
that only you know it and the server administrator

664
00:42:12,755 --> 00:42:14,495
and so that you can make a handshake

665
00:42:14,495 --> 00:42:16,755
and basically say that, hey,

666
00:42:16,916 --> 00:42:18,956
I'm this guy who knows the secret password.

667
00:42:19,755 --> 00:42:24,495
So the legacy password is a secret that the user has

668
00:42:24,495 --> 00:42:27,575
that authenticates him to a gatekeeper on the server

669
00:42:27,575 --> 00:42:30,456
who will let him in, the bouncer in front of the door.

670
00:42:31,515 --> 00:42:34,495
And yes, this concept will go away.

671
00:42:34,815 --> 00:42:36,335
Like Bitcoin and especially Noster

672
00:42:36,335 --> 00:42:40,916
make this reliance on a server administrator completely obsolete.

673
00:42:41,936 --> 00:42:45,396
However, secrets, they will not go away.

674
00:42:45,936 --> 00:42:48,695
We no longer have a password associated with a username,

675
00:42:48,695 --> 00:42:52,195
but we do have private keys that can derive a public key,

676
00:42:52,715 --> 00:42:55,476
or we have encryption passwords, symmetric keys.

677
00:42:56,175 --> 00:43:00,075
These types of secrets are still important,

678
00:43:00,675 --> 00:43:03,376
and we need to memorize them somehow.

679
00:43:03,376 --> 00:43:06,715
And human memory is flawed to some extent.

680
00:43:07,335 --> 00:43:10,175
Not only do we forget things naturally,

681
00:43:10,396 --> 00:43:13,695
but accidents can happen and your memory can be severely affected

682
00:43:13,695 --> 00:43:17,396
for the most mundane of reasons.

683
00:43:18,235 --> 00:43:21,695
And for this, thankfully, we have technology.

684
00:43:22,055 --> 00:43:23,356
There's pen and paper.

685
00:43:23,916 --> 00:43:25,956
It's a really good way of recording something

686
00:43:25,956 --> 00:43:27,295
and making sure you don't forget it.

687
00:43:27,715 --> 00:43:28,735
It works really well.

688
00:43:28,856 --> 00:43:30,936
That's why every Bitcoiner basically recommends

689
00:43:30,936 --> 00:43:33,655
that you write down your 12 words on a piece of paper

690
00:43:33,655 --> 00:43:36,835
because that's a stupid foolproof way

691
00:43:36,835 --> 00:43:40,015
how humans have been doing this for, well, millennia.

692
00:43:40,575 --> 00:43:42,535
And it'll work in the future as well.

693
00:43:43,215 --> 00:43:45,715
But the downside is we cannot do fancy math

694
00:43:45,715 --> 00:43:46,795
like encryption on paper.

695
00:43:47,315 --> 00:43:50,856
So for this, we need to use computers and storage devices.

696
00:43:51,515 --> 00:43:54,215
But, you know, we can and they're cheap,

697
00:43:54,315 --> 00:43:55,215
so we can duplicate.

698
00:43:55,476 --> 00:43:58,195
And if any one of them fails, others are still there.

699
00:43:58,515 --> 00:44:00,335
If all of them failed, yeah, we're kind of screwed.

700
00:44:00,335 --> 00:44:07,235
But ultimately, these computers can help us to generate and store and use the secret.

701
00:44:08,095 --> 00:44:11,555
So to generate a secret, first of all, you need to create randomness.

702
00:44:12,255 --> 00:44:16,896
Because you want to have a large number that is randomly chosen,

703
00:44:17,356 --> 00:44:21,755
such as it's very difficult for anyone else to come up with exactly the same number as you have.

704
00:44:22,615 --> 00:44:26,595
And the larger the number and the more randomly you've picked it, the better.

705
00:44:26,595 --> 00:44:32,215
and humans are not good with large numbers and not good with randomness and computers are very

706
00:44:32,215 --> 00:44:37,815
good with both of these things so you know let the computer do that for you and then of course

707
00:44:37,815 --> 00:44:46,436
the memory like an industrial grade sd card can definitely keep your data for 50 50 like 50 years

708
00:44:46,436 --> 00:44:55,735
or or more and that is already a a solid you know addition to your human memory so passwords

709
00:44:55,735 --> 00:44:58,795
are very important in the architecture

710
00:44:58,795 --> 00:45:00,015
of the internet of the past.

711
00:45:00,535 --> 00:45:02,495
This will change to private keys

712
00:45:02,495 --> 00:45:05,035
and encryption keys in the future.

713
00:45:05,735 --> 00:45:09,055
But in any case, secrets have always

714
00:45:09,055 --> 00:45:10,315
and will always be important.

715
00:45:10,755 --> 00:45:13,695
And having tools that help you manage your secrets

716
00:45:13,695 --> 00:45:14,775
are very useful.

717
00:45:15,055 --> 00:45:16,476
And that's what a password manager is.

718
00:45:19,655 --> 00:45:21,896
Yep, makes sense, Max.

719
00:45:22,755 --> 00:45:25,635
So let's move on to the next one then.

720
00:45:25,735 --> 00:45:27,075
on your list.

721
00:45:27,155 --> 00:45:30,356
Yeah, I think now we're ready for the juicy stuff.

722
00:45:30,976 --> 00:45:32,115
What do you want to start with?

723
00:45:32,356 --> 00:45:34,595
Earning money or posting online?

724
00:45:36,795 --> 00:45:38,936
Why don't we start with posting online?

725
00:45:39,595 --> 00:45:41,436
Because, yeah, why don't we start with that?

726
00:45:42,476 --> 00:45:42,735
Cool.

727
00:45:43,115 --> 00:45:45,956
So for that, obviously, we do Nostra, right?

728
00:45:46,055 --> 00:45:48,416
We're future people here.

729
00:45:49,376 --> 00:45:52,595
So for that, Nostra relies on private public keys.

730
00:45:53,115 --> 00:45:56,035
So you need a tool to help create your private key

731
00:45:56,035 --> 00:45:58,255
and to store it and to keep it safe.

732
00:45:58,715 --> 00:45:59,916
And on your Graphene OS phone,

733
00:45:59,995 --> 00:46:02,535
the best app for this is Amber, A-M-B-E-R.

734
00:46:03,255 --> 00:46:05,215
And this is a private key manager.

735
00:46:05,376 --> 00:46:08,075
Think of it as a hardware wallet, as an app, right?

736
00:46:08,115 --> 00:46:09,675
It generates your private key.

737
00:46:09,896 --> 00:46:10,876
It remembers it.

738
00:46:10,876 --> 00:46:15,155
And other people can request that this signing application

739
00:46:15,155 --> 00:46:18,175
will sign a message that the first application created.

740
00:46:18,795 --> 00:46:21,035
So this means that you can use

741
00:46:21,035 --> 00:46:22,835
all of the many Nostra applications,

742
00:46:23,396 --> 00:46:24,936
but none of these Nostra applications

743
00:46:24,936 --> 00:46:27,615
actually need to learn the private key that you have.

744
00:46:28,015 --> 00:46:30,035
They only request your signing app

745
00:46:30,035 --> 00:46:32,295
to please, can you sign this message for me?

746
00:46:32,936 --> 00:46:38,195
And that's a much more secure use of your secret.

747
00:46:38,695 --> 00:46:40,735
Not any app should know all of your secrets.

748
00:46:41,075 --> 00:46:43,175
If you can reduce that to only one app,

749
00:46:43,275 --> 00:46:43,916
that's much better.

750
00:46:45,035 --> 00:46:49,095
So on Ember, you just create a private key.

751
00:46:49,416 --> 00:46:50,675
You write down your 12 words,

752
00:46:51,035 --> 00:46:51,916
on a piece of paper.

753
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:54,487
You have a backup of your identity.

754
00:46:55,367 --> 00:46:58,807
And next you can start creating content.

755
00:46:59,607 --> 00:47:01,547
So for this, Amethyst is, I think,

756
00:47:01,707 --> 00:47:05,247
the Swiss army knife in the world of Android.

757
00:47:05,727 --> 00:47:07,047
It can do basically everything.

758
00:47:07,167 --> 00:47:09,387
You can watch this live stream on Amethyst if you want.

759
00:47:10,167 --> 00:47:13,027
And yeah, you can sell goods.

760
00:47:13,147 --> 00:47:14,947
You can make short posts.

761
00:47:15,127 --> 00:47:16,467
You can reply to people.

762
00:47:16,467 --> 00:47:23,267
You can use many feed algorithms on a marketplace.

763
00:47:24,147 --> 00:47:25,507
Lots of really cool features.

764
00:47:26,507 --> 00:47:29,667
And this works together with Ember,

765
00:47:29,827 --> 00:47:32,107
so Amethyst doesn't need to know your private key.

766
00:47:33,087 --> 00:47:34,847
And a third cool application is,

767
00:47:35,367 --> 00:47:40,047
it addresses the question of where is all this content on Nostor stored?

768
00:47:40,467 --> 00:47:41,987
The answer to that is a Relay.

769
00:47:41,987 --> 00:47:44,827
A Relay is an application on a computer

770
00:47:44,827 --> 00:47:49,747
that when requested will accept a valid NOSTR event

771
00:47:49,747 --> 00:47:53,227
and store it and later give it to anyone who asks for it.

772
00:47:53,967 --> 00:47:57,447
So the cool thing is relays are just software

773
00:47:57,447 --> 00:47:59,047
and you can run software on your phone.

774
00:47:59,387 --> 00:48:00,947
So you can run a relay on your phone.

775
00:48:01,087 --> 00:48:01,987
That's called SitRide.

776
00:48:02,487 --> 00:48:03,727
So this will be the application

777
00:48:03,727 --> 00:48:05,527
where any other app on your phone

778
00:48:05,527 --> 00:48:10,227
can put a NOSTR event for storing for later

779
00:48:10,227 --> 00:48:14,027
and other applications can read all of the NOSTR events

780
00:48:14,027 --> 00:48:14,847
that you have in there.

781
00:48:15,167 --> 00:48:18,467
So this is very cool to have a backup of all your posts.

782
00:48:19,047 --> 00:48:22,487
Imagine if Twitter goes down, all of your posts are gone

783
00:48:22,487 --> 00:48:23,887
and there's no way that you can get it

784
00:48:23,887 --> 00:48:25,927
because the app doesn't store it.

785
00:48:26,127 --> 00:48:28,147
The app only works if the server is online.

786
00:48:28,327 --> 00:48:29,147
Same does the website.

787
00:48:29,647 --> 00:48:31,947
But with Noster, you can keep a copy of everything

788
00:48:31,947 --> 00:48:34,287
that you ever created on your phone offline.

789
00:48:35,027 --> 00:48:38,147
And regardless of if any other server on the internet

790
00:48:38,147 --> 00:48:39,847
decides to delete your data,

791
00:48:40,267 --> 00:48:41,767
you will always have a copy of it.

792
00:48:41,767 --> 00:48:46,447
And so that's a solid foundation to start to explore other Nostra apps.

793
00:48:48,107 --> 00:48:48,747
Great.

794
00:48:48,887 --> 00:48:51,367
So we've set the foundation for Nostra itself.

795
00:48:52,907 --> 00:49:00,167
Let's talk about specific use cases, the Cypherpunk use cases on Nostra.

796
00:49:01,287 --> 00:49:05,447
Now that we've established relays, you can be completely sovereign by running your own relay.

797
00:49:05,447 --> 00:49:11,387
You can protect yourself or you can minimize your risk by using Amber.

798
00:49:11,767 --> 00:49:13,727
to manage your secrets.

799
00:49:14,667 --> 00:49:17,567
So you're ready to go as a Cypherpunk Nostra user.

800
00:49:18,287 --> 00:49:22,327
What are the really cool, let's pick a few, right?

801
00:49:23,907 --> 00:49:26,907
The really cool projects that you're seeing that are leveraging Nostra.

802
00:49:28,067 --> 00:49:32,767
I actually forgot the first application you should install on your Corfin OS phone.

803
00:49:33,207 --> 00:49:38,127
That was a mistake because actually you need an application store, right?

804
00:49:38,127 --> 00:49:41,907
you need a way to find and install and update other applications.

805
00:49:42,687 --> 00:49:45,947
And you're not going to ask Google for permission to please,

806
00:49:46,027 --> 00:49:48,007
can I install my Freedom Tech, dear Google?

807
00:49:48,607 --> 00:49:51,467
So let's find a freer alternative, and that's ZapStore.

808
00:49:51,927 --> 00:49:53,907
This is an App Store built on Nostar.

809
00:49:54,467 --> 00:49:59,047
And as someone who works with people who ship software to people,

810
00:49:59,667 --> 00:50:01,727
ZapStore is the only App Store that works.

811
00:50:02,147 --> 00:50:04,767
At this very moment, some of the apps I'm working on

812
00:50:04,767 --> 00:50:07,747
are stuck in the review of the Apple gatekeepers

813
00:50:07,747 --> 00:50:10,707
and we have to ask their permission to please,

814
00:50:10,827 --> 00:50:12,887
can we give better code to our users?

815
00:50:13,187 --> 00:50:14,467
They're all waiting for it,

816
00:50:14,847 --> 00:50:16,587
but no, they have not responded yet

817
00:50:16,587 --> 00:50:19,327
because they're busy being in the way of other people.

818
00:50:19,987 --> 00:50:23,307
So while they make their life miserable,

819
00:50:23,487 --> 00:50:24,467
they let us wait,

820
00:50:24,887 --> 00:50:27,307
which is great use of their time and our time.

821
00:50:28,647 --> 00:50:30,287
But so the way that Zapso works

822
00:50:30,287 --> 00:50:31,807
is if you want to publish an application,

823
00:50:32,207 --> 00:50:33,467
you just create a Nostra event,

824
00:50:33,747 --> 00:50:35,227
which is a text file basically.

825
00:50:35,727 --> 00:50:36,907
And in this text file, you say,

826
00:50:36,907 --> 00:50:39,087
hey, I'm publishing a new software.

827
00:50:39,327 --> 00:50:39,947
It's called whatever.

828
00:50:40,667 --> 00:50:41,947
And this is what it's about.

829
00:50:42,087 --> 00:50:42,787
Here's some pictures.

830
00:50:43,387 --> 00:50:44,807
And this is what's in the latest version.

831
00:50:45,487 --> 00:50:48,327
And here is where you can download the package.

832
00:50:48,587 --> 00:50:50,407
And this is the hash of the package and so on.

833
00:50:51,027 --> 00:50:53,567
And this entire message,

834
00:50:53,687 --> 00:50:55,267
you sign it with your private key

835
00:50:55,267 --> 00:50:59,147
and you publish it on one or many NOSTA relays.

836
00:50:59,827 --> 00:51:01,607
And voila, now people are notified

837
00:51:01,607 --> 00:51:04,347
that you have just published a piece of code

838
00:51:04,347 --> 00:51:06,107
and they know where to get it

839
00:51:06,107 --> 00:51:07,047
and they can install it

840
00:51:07,047 --> 00:51:09,447
and they can tell other people about it, right?

841
00:51:09,507 --> 00:51:13,487
So you can review and suggest to your friends

842
00:51:13,487 --> 00:51:15,167
that, hey, these are the five applications

843
00:51:15,167 --> 00:51:18,587
that I really enjoy and others can see it.

844
00:51:19,067 --> 00:51:20,627
So this is what SAP Store is.

845
00:51:20,647 --> 00:51:23,747
It's kind of a social, unstoppable app store

846
00:51:23,747 --> 00:51:25,887
where you can discover cool applications

847
00:51:25,887 --> 00:51:29,727
and there are thousands of cool applications on there

848
00:51:29,727 --> 00:51:31,147
and all of them are open source.

849
00:51:31,607 --> 00:51:33,287
Most of them are privacy preserving

850
00:51:33,287 --> 00:51:36,527
and most of them I would classify as freedom tools.

851
00:51:37,107 --> 00:51:39,467
So it's definitely worth to just browse through

852
00:51:39,467 --> 00:51:42,267
the history of recent releases

853
00:51:42,267 --> 00:51:46,227
and click through and check out what that app does.

854
00:51:46,787 --> 00:51:50,107
And this is how I regularly find new amazing applications

855
00:51:50,107 --> 00:51:51,887
that are really useful.

856
00:51:52,507 --> 00:51:55,847
So ZapStore, absolutely recommended as the first app

857
00:51:55,847 --> 00:51:57,007
that you install on your phone.

858
00:51:57,007 --> 00:51:59,527
The second would be a VPN like Orbot.

859
00:52:03,287 --> 00:52:19,787
Great. More foundational pieces. I'm just going to raise one point on ZapStore Max. And we had Fran on the show a few weeks back, actually. Great discussion on this. I'm going to raise one point on ZapStore and in general, a Freedom Store of that nature.

860
00:52:19,787 --> 00:52:24,367
but we can parking lock that

861
00:52:24,367 --> 00:52:26,607
for after we've gone through a few more of these

862
00:52:26,607 --> 00:52:29,747
which is you absolutely as a user

863
00:52:29,747 --> 00:52:32,787
should be able to install whatever you want

864
00:52:32,787 --> 00:52:35,547
I mean it's your phone, your sovereign

865
00:52:35,547 --> 00:52:37,887
and if you want a piece of software

866
00:52:37,887 --> 00:52:39,167
you should be able to install the software

867
00:52:39,167 --> 00:52:42,227
there is a risk of course

868
00:52:42,227 --> 00:52:43,207
that

869
00:52:43,207 --> 00:52:50,367
a piece of software could be malware.

870
00:52:50,527 --> 00:52:51,527
How do you know, right?

871
00:52:52,127 --> 00:52:53,827
So you need to solve that trust problem.

872
00:52:53,947 --> 00:52:55,867
Obviously, how Apple and Google solve it

873
00:52:55,867 --> 00:52:57,307
is by complete gatekeeping, right?

874
00:52:57,607 --> 00:52:59,927
They rent out trust by doing KYC

875
00:52:59,927 --> 00:53:02,227
and doing their heavy-handed code reviews.

876
00:53:04,267 --> 00:53:06,767
So we should, when we get to the point

877
00:53:06,767 --> 00:53:08,087
where we talk about web of trust,

878
00:53:08,307 --> 00:53:09,767
this should be one of the things we talk about,

879
00:53:09,767 --> 00:53:11,887
which is how do you trust a piece of software?

880
00:53:11,887 --> 00:53:20,527
and I don't know if bio beware right is is the right answer or not right I think there's a better

881
00:53:20,527 --> 00:53:24,707
answer to it and maybe web of trust is that answer but just wanted to put that out there

882
00:53:24,707 --> 00:53:30,287
Max we could circle back to that once we go through a few more of these no but that's a

883
00:53:30,287 --> 00:53:35,767
super important point but I think that because app stores build on open foundations it can tackle

884
00:53:35,767 --> 00:53:40,607
these difficult problems much better than centralized alternatives like with Apple there's

885
00:53:40,607 --> 00:53:42,587
one company doing all the reviews

886
00:53:42,587 --> 00:53:44,607
of all the applications that

887
00:53:44,607 --> 00:53:46,107
are possible to run on this phone?

888
00:53:46,627 --> 00:53:48,627
That's ridiculous. How could one

889
00:53:48,627 --> 00:53:50,587
company have enough expertise

890
00:53:50,587 --> 00:53:52,587
to audit every piece of software

891
00:53:52,587 --> 00:53:54,547
that is out there? It's impossible

892
00:53:54,547 --> 00:53:56,007
that they can do a good job

893
00:53:56,007 --> 00:53:57,587
or a great job

894
00:53:57,587 --> 00:54:00,727
that both satisfies the speed

895
00:54:00,727 --> 00:54:02,567
and ease for developers to improve the

896
00:54:02,567 --> 00:54:04,607
software of their users and keeps the

897
00:54:04,607 --> 00:54:06,607
security in mind. What we can do

898
00:54:06,607 --> 00:54:08,667
with Nostra

899
00:54:08,667 --> 00:54:10,467
and ZapStore is that

900
00:54:10,467 --> 00:54:13,327
First of all, anyone can announce that his software is ready.

901
00:54:14,347 --> 00:54:19,367
Like, why should anyone be able to stop you doing that, first of all?

902
00:54:19,927 --> 00:54:26,547
And then, however, you cannot stop that others are gossiping about your release.

903
00:54:27,047 --> 00:54:32,007
Now they have a provable tag of the piece of software that you're releasing,

904
00:54:32,287 --> 00:54:33,747
and they can write reviews.

905
00:54:34,367 --> 00:54:38,387
They can say, hey, I don't think that the architecture of the software is good.

906
00:54:38,387 --> 00:54:39,967
I do not recommend this app.

907
00:54:39,967 --> 00:54:42,967
They could say, hey, I don't trust this developer.

908
00:54:43,627 --> 00:54:47,007
Anything that he posts I think is bad, right?

909
00:54:47,047 --> 00:54:48,247
He might be compromised.

910
00:54:50,067 --> 00:54:55,147
A security specialist firm, or why not five at the same time,

911
00:54:55,467 --> 00:54:59,667
can audit the source code of the app and then attest that, yes,

912
00:54:59,727 --> 00:55:01,167
this is actually good code.

913
00:55:01,627 --> 00:55:05,947
And you could configure it such that you only download

914
00:55:05,947 --> 00:55:09,587
when this auditing agency has said that it's good.

915
00:55:09,967 --> 00:55:19,567
Or another cool way is just, sure, it might be malware, but what if you know that this is exactly the same application as 50 of my friends have installed?

916
00:55:20,347 --> 00:55:24,467
So, you know, if it's malware, at least we're all going down together.

917
00:55:24,727 --> 00:55:27,967
And at least it's not a targeted attack just against me.

918
00:55:27,967 --> 00:55:44,667
If I would see that, hey, this is an app that looks like it's the app that I'm interested in, but it has a different hash than what my friends have installed, and it looks like that this one that my friends have installed is the actual correct one.

919
00:55:44,667 --> 00:55:58,487
And so having this open, attestable graph of releases and metadata and reputation about those releases and the developers or authors of them is incredibly powerful.

920
00:55:58,787 --> 00:56:02,647
And it will allow us to produce way more secure infrastructure.

921
00:56:03,507 --> 00:56:06,327
A big caveat, of course, this is a whole bunch of work.

922
00:56:06,727 --> 00:56:11,787
So all of these features that I just talked about probably don't exist yet because it's hard.

923
00:56:11,787 --> 00:56:14,887
but this is one of the many ways that you could contribute

924
00:56:14,887 --> 00:56:18,747
and make one of the really promising projects even better.

925
00:56:19,247 --> 00:56:23,027
I think this is the most exciting part or time in a technology

926
00:56:23,027 --> 00:56:26,967
where you have a problem and finally you find a solution

927
00:56:26,967 --> 00:56:29,907
that just barely solves the problem.

928
00:56:30,467 --> 00:56:34,167
If you look at it, it's actually shit and almost broken,

929
00:56:34,867 --> 00:56:38,047
but you can see the potential of how,

930
00:56:38,047 --> 00:56:40,807
if these couple things just would be fixed

931
00:56:40,807 --> 00:56:42,587
and we totally can fix it,

932
00:56:42,967 --> 00:56:46,447
then it would be an incredible solution to a hard problem.

933
00:56:46,907 --> 00:56:49,187
And so it's worth to work on and make it possible.

934
00:56:49,667 --> 00:56:51,867
And there's like a million applications,

935
00:56:52,107 --> 00:56:52,547
not a million,

936
00:56:52,867 --> 00:56:56,047
there's a thousand Freedom Tech related applications

937
00:56:56,047 --> 00:56:58,887
that I would say absolutely deserve your attention

938
00:56:58,887 --> 00:56:59,887
to off-contribution.

939
00:57:01,167 --> 00:57:02,527
And there's actually a broader,

940
00:57:02,847 --> 00:57:05,147
we were talking specifically about ZapStore

941
00:57:05,147 --> 00:57:06,707
and sideloading applications

942
00:57:06,707 --> 00:57:09,407
onto your phone.

943
00:57:09,667 --> 00:57:11,427
But there's a broader point here.

944
00:57:11,987 --> 00:57:14,887
So you talked about how the hell can we trust Apple

945
00:57:14,887 --> 00:57:19,987
to curate essentially hundreds of thousands

946
00:57:19,987 --> 00:57:22,187
of application submissions.

947
00:57:23,547 --> 00:57:26,467
And how do we know that they're going to do the right thing?

948
00:57:26,907 --> 00:57:30,267
And the way they do it is they just keep bloating their bureaucracy.

949
00:57:30,467 --> 00:57:32,287
And then that gets heavy-handed.

950
00:57:32,407 --> 00:57:33,527
We saw what happened with Dahmus.

951
00:57:34,207 --> 00:57:35,587
But there's a broader point there.

952
00:57:35,587 --> 00:57:37,667
And you can extend that to music.

953
00:57:37,987 --> 00:57:42,527
How can you trust Spotify to curate hundreds of thousands of songs,

954
00:57:42,627 --> 00:57:45,427
some of which could be incredible new aspiring musicians,

955
00:57:45,727 --> 00:57:48,987
and to deliver that to users who might listen to it?

956
00:57:49,127 --> 00:57:49,927
You can't, right?

957
00:57:50,347 --> 00:57:51,267
It's that simple.

958
00:57:51,347 --> 00:57:55,287
The answer is Spotify cannot help you find music you actually want to listen to.

959
00:57:55,347 --> 00:58:00,207
They will make you listen to music that will allow them to sell advertisements to you.

960
00:58:00,207 --> 00:58:02,387
And you just take that to film.

961
00:58:02,387 --> 00:58:08,347
How can you trust Netflix to give you, to curate all the movies and give you what you want?

962
00:58:08,427 --> 00:58:09,727
And then so on and so forth, right?

963
00:58:11,127 --> 00:58:14,347
And I do want to come back to that in a bit.

964
00:58:14,447 --> 00:58:20,947
So let's talk, so you talked about we need a venue for being able to, in a sovereign way, install software.

965
00:58:21,147 --> 00:58:22,587
We obviously have the Phone Foundation.

966
00:58:22,807 --> 00:58:28,247
We have the Nostra Foundation with Amber and Citrine and all of that and Zap Store.

967
00:58:28,367 --> 00:58:29,307
So you've loaded the apps.

968
00:58:29,427 --> 00:58:44,639
Now let talk about the apps themselves what are the cool ones yeah what is more important than than having a wallet to be able to receive bitcoin and that is having a podcast app so that you can receive bitcoin

969
00:58:44,639 --> 00:58:49,779
podcasts which will make you even more bullish on bitcoin which will get you to stack more bitcoin

970
00:58:49,779 --> 00:58:56,299
so ultimately that's the the sound of a bitcoin accumulation strategy is first install the podcast

971
00:58:56,299 --> 00:59:02,239
app then install the wallet so let's talk about fountain it's it's a really cool app

972
00:59:02,239 --> 00:59:11,359
um to to find podcasts and and recommend podcasts to your friends and and easily clip highlights

973
00:59:11,359 --> 00:59:16,399
out of these podcasts and live streams right you can listen to this very live stream right now

974
00:59:16,399 --> 00:59:21,459
in fountain and if you didn't know about that yet then well there's your chance

975
00:59:21,459 --> 00:59:25,119
to travel in time to listen to this podcast live.

976
00:59:29,039 --> 00:59:31,879
So, yeah, really cool app.

977
00:59:31,999 --> 00:59:33,139
And you can log in with Nostra.

978
00:59:33,219 --> 00:59:33,919
So that's the cool thing.

979
00:59:34,019 --> 00:59:37,019
Once you have your identity created in Amber,

980
00:59:37,379 --> 00:59:39,679
other applications can just use that same identity

981
00:59:39,679 --> 00:59:42,779
so that you will see that all the people

982
00:59:42,779 --> 00:59:44,199
whom you followed in Amethyst

983
00:59:44,199 --> 00:59:45,499
because you liked their posts,

984
00:59:45,879 --> 00:59:47,799
now you can see what podcasts they listen to.

985
00:59:48,359 --> 00:59:49,939
And because you already like their posts

986
00:59:49,939 --> 00:59:51,299
and you probably like the sources,

987
00:59:51,459 --> 00:59:52,599
that they've accumulated.

988
00:59:53,279 --> 00:59:56,319
So really cool to find recommendations

989
00:59:56,319 --> 00:59:58,659
that are more tailored to you and your friends

990
00:59:58,659 --> 01:00:00,579
rather than whatever the mainstream

991
01:00:00,579 --> 01:00:01,819
is listening to at the moment.

992
01:00:03,519 --> 01:00:06,459
I think the cool thing about Fountain is

993
01:00:06,459 --> 01:00:08,959
they really do, for the most part,

994
01:00:09,059 --> 01:00:09,879
cut out the middleman.

995
01:00:09,959 --> 01:00:11,859
I mean, I know they take a small cut

996
01:00:11,859 --> 01:00:13,839
of the zaps and the boos,

997
01:00:13,979 --> 01:00:16,139
but it's really de minimis, right,

998
01:00:16,219 --> 01:00:17,739
what they do.

999
01:00:17,739 --> 01:00:24,659
and it creates this slightly, not slightly,

1000
01:00:24,799 --> 01:00:28,339
a very different relationship between the consumer and the creator, right?

1001
01:00:28,379 --> 01:00:29,999
You have these boosts.

1002
01:00:30,159 --> 01:00:31,579
I mean, you know, on Pipe Chain Radio,

1003
01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:33,979
we have all these regulars who keep boosting us

1004
01:00:33,979 --> 01:00:36,299
and I feel like some of them we haven't even had on the show

1005
01:00:36,299 --> 01:00:38,939
and I've never met them, but I feel like I know them, right?

1006
01:00:38,959 --> 01:00:41,619
And they feel like this show gives them something

1007
01:00:41,619 --> 01:00:46,159
and, you know, they want to boost us or zap us.

1008
01:00:46,159 --> 01:00:50,699
it's a very different relationship it's not that standoffish

1009
01:00:50,699 --> 01:00:59,239
influencer high priest sort of thing you have in you know on on apple podcasts or spotify podcasts

1010
01:00:59,239 --> 01:01:06,959
yeah exactly and this relationship to to your fans especially for a small podcast

1011
01:01:06,959 --> 01:01:14,619
are are incredible because you know if you get like 50 views or whatever then that that feels

1012
01:01:14,619 --> 01:01:20,299
like nothing but you know eventually you meet someone in real life and he's like oh yeah i

1013
01:01:20,299 --> 01:01:26,739
watched these videos you're like what you're one of those 50 people but that that that is a thing

1014
01:01:26,739 --> 01:01:32,779
right and and it actually happens more often than you think and and these micro relationships that

1015
01:01:32,779 --> 01:01:38,579
we can build in this vastness of cyberspace are quite beautiful that that this is possible

1016
01:01:38,579 --> 01:01:41,459
and I think we should relish in that fact.

1017
01:01:42,299 --> 01:01:45,039
And Bitcoin brings this to the next level

1018
01:01:45,039 --> 01:01:49,099
because money is a very strong token of appreciation.

1019
01:01:49,739 --> 01:01:52,559
An online message of, hey, thanks for this content is cool

1020
01:01:52,559 --> 01:01:55,579
and it does warm the heart, but it doesn't feed the belly.

1021
01:01:56,419 --> 01:02:00,419
And getting paid for something that you put out there

1022
01:02:00,419 --> 01:02:03,279
is really a great encouraging feedback

1023
01:02:03,279 --> 01:02:07,519
and that Noster enables this so easily

1024
01:02:07,519 --> 01:02:09,879
where it really is just a click of a button

1025
01:02:09,879 --> 01:02:12,159
and magic internet money moves to the other guy,

1026
01:02:12,699 --> 01:02:16,939
that is phenomenal and it decreases the hurdle

1027
01:02:16,939 --> 01:02:20,699
for enjoyers of a content to say thank you

1028
01:02:20,699 --> 01:02:22,779
in a more meaningful way than just a like.

1029
01:02:23,539 --> 01:02:28,079
And that is, I think, the type of community-supporting software

1030
01:02:28,079 --> 01:02:29,699
that the world needs right now.

1031
01:02:31,379 --> 01:02:33,939
And Fountain's just getting better by the day, right?

1032
01:02:33,939 --> 01:02:37,859
Oscar, Davidas, Nick, they're just doing an amazing job.

1033
01:02:39,619 --> 01:02:40,979
All right, next one.

1034
01:02:40,979 --> 01:02:49,959
One thing, though, because actually I have to say that Fountain is the first closed source app that we're talking about here.

1035
01:02:50,759 --> 01:02:55,479
And I don't know, I've been yelling at Oscar for many years that that's nonsense.

1036
01:02:55,739 --> 01:02:56,799
It should be open source.

1037
01:02:57,319 --> 01:02:57,939
It really should be.

1038
01:02:58,019 --> 01:03:03,219
So if you're listening to the sermon, then Oscar, you know the right move.

1039
01:03:03,219 --> 01:03:04,979
join us on the freedom side?

1040
01:03:05,659 --> 01:03:07,079
Well, the last time,

1041
01:03:07,419 --> 01:03:09,439
I think Oscar's been on the show three times

1042
01:03:09,439 --> 01:03:11,379
and I've asked him every single time.

1043
01:03:12,019 --> 01:03:13,539
And I think he wants to do it.

1044
01:03:14,699 --> 01:03:16,339
I think the issue, Max,

1045
01:03:16,439 --> 01:03:17,519
is they're a small team

1046
01:03:17,519 --> 01:03:19,539
and they have so much to do.

1047
01:03:19,979 --> 01:03:21,659
And open source, I mean, look, again,

1048
01:03:21,839 --> 01:03:22,779
Oscar, if you're listening,

1049
01:03:22,879 --> 01:03:23,999
I urge you to open source it.

1050
01:03:24,179 --> 01:03:25,119
But I also understand

1051
01:03:25,119 --> 01:03:26,779
that you're juggling a lot right now.

1052
01:03:27,219 --> 01:03:29,039
So, but yes, do open source.

1053
01:03:29,039 --> 01:03:30,599
That's exactly why you need

1054
01:03:30,599 --> 01:03:32,279
the superpowers of open source.

1055
01:03:32,279 --> 01:03:47,519
Like if you work on free software, you grow from a small team of three people to a team of 50 million people with half of them dead already because they wrote a foundational open source software that you can get for free.

1056
01:03:48,679 --> 01:03:49,739
It's incredible.

1057
01:03:50,359 --> 01:03:54,839
And not just you passively can you consume all of these libraries that others worked on.

1058
01:03:55,019 --> 01:04:01,819
If you publish your code as well, others will look at it and tell you where it's shit and where it can be better.

1059
01:04:01,819 --> 01:04:07,919
And yeah, that's a bit embarrassing and painful, but the end result is better code and much better code.

1060
01:04:08,559 --> 01:04:11,219
So that in and of itself should be worth it.

1061
01:04:11,819 --> 01:04:18,159
But then also you enable others to learn from the mistakes that you did.

1062
01:04:19,039 --> 01:04:27,319
And ultimately, cyberspace is so vast to think that you're going to be the only website on the internet that does a certain thing is ridiculous.

1063
01:04:27,979 --> 01:04:31,079
Obviously, others will do a website that's similar to yours.

1064
01:04:31,079 --> 01:04:32,299
and same with apps.

1065
01:04:32,979 --> 01:04:36,859
And if they just copy-paste your code, that's fine.

1066
01:04:37,159 --> 01:04:38,259
They can do that anyway.

1067
01:04:38,359 --> 01:04:40,819
You can reverse engineer any proprietary software

1068
01:04:40,819 --> 01:04:42,719
if you really, really want to.

1069
01:04:43,299 --> 01:04:46,979
So that's not really a good defense in any case.

1070
01:04:47,179 --> 01:04:50,059
And then, well, what if someone copies your code

1071
01:04:50,059 --> 01:04:51,419
and puts it on his own website?

1072
01:04:52,319 --> 01:04:52,899
So what?

1073
01:04:53,059 --> 01:04:54,159
You still have yours.

1074
01:04:54,319 --> 01:04:55,939
Your friends still can get your app.

1075
01:04:56,379 --> 01:04:58,079
They can still pay you for that app.

1076
01:04:58,079 --> 01:05:05,499
So, like, working on open source is kind of like being in Bitcoin, right?

1077
01:05:05,659 --> 01:05:12,399
Like, once you've made that step and you rearranged your worldview, it's so obviously better.

1078
01:05:12,559 --> 01:05:14,259
It's like such a no-brainer.

1079
01:05:14,739 --> 01:05:19,519
But then there's people on the other side who are just not seeing it.

1080
01:05:20,039 --> 01:05:21,859
And that's really frustrating, right?

1081
01:05:21,879 --> 01:05:26,719
And I feel free software advocacy and Bitcoin advocacy has a lot in common there.

1082
01:05:26,719 --> 01:05:33,639
so yeah oscar join us on the free side yeah and look there's there's stuff like path dependence

1083
01:05:33,639 --> 01:05:40,939
and network effects and all of that fountain has all of that i i yeah i think they should do it

1084
01:05:40,939 --> 01:05:44,959
it's not i don't think it's going to be an issue yeah someone else can clone it and whatever but

1085
01:05:44,959 --> 01:05:50,439
fountain's got the path dependence and network effect baked in i just don't see how someone

1086
01:05:50,439 --> 01:05:54,999
takes their code base and and runs away with it at this point and

1087
01:05:54,999 --> 01:06:05,599
all right so that was podcasting max what else what else he got yeah music let's talk about that

1088
01:06:05,599 --> 01:06:13,739
a cool new app that was just vibed into existence by the legendary derrick ross's zap tracks so

1089
01:06:13,739 --> 01:06:20,959
that's a fun one that's a app designed to for you to discover music that your friends are listening

1090
01:06:20,959 --> 01:06:28,919
to specifically free and open source music right that's freely available and that is is really cool

1091
01:06:28,919 --> 01:06:35,199
right there has been over the years now a slow but steady growing group of of musicians on Noster

1092
01:06:35,199 --> 01:06:42,039
who have published their tracks for free and simply adding their their lightning address

1093
01:06:42,039 --> 01:06:47,419
as a place where people can show some respect and guess what people do if they like your stuff

1094
01:06:47,419 --> 01:06:50,739
they'll send you magic internet money if you make it easy for them.

1095
01:06:51,579 --> 01:06:54,679
And so, yeah, ZapTracks is exactly that.

1096
01:06:54,859 --> 01:06:57,219
It's a way for you to listen to music and show some respect

1097
01:06:57,219 --> 01:06:59,819
and appreciation to the people who bring you that joy.

1098
01:07:00,659 --> 01:07:02,919
And, yeah, that's worth to check out.

1099
01:07:04,299 --> 01:07:09,499
And the beauty here, Max, is that that music that goes on ZapTracks

1100
01:07:09,499 --> 01:07:11,459
will presumably show up on Fountain as well

1101
01:07:11,459 --> 01:07:13,039
because Fountain supports music too.

1102
01:07:15,259 --> 01:07:15,659
Exactly.

1103
01:07:15,659 --> 01:07:15,859
Exactly.

1104
01:07:16,759 --> 01:07:19,439
Yeah, they have a whole music section on their app.

1105
01:07:20,539 --> 01:07:20,839
Cool.

1106
01:07:21,399 --> 01:07:22,719
And there's Wavelake as well.

1107
01:07:22,819 --> 01:07:25,259
I know Sam is busy.

1108
01:07:25,639 --> 01:07:27,179
He's touring with his band.

1109
01:07:27,499 --> 01:07:29,079
But there's Wavelake too for music.

1110
01:07:30,979 --> 01:07:32,859
A close source app though, I believe.

1111
01:07:35,399 --> 01:07:37,199
Yeah, but that just shows you

1112
01:07:37,199 --> 01:07:39,559
we have more and more tools

1113
01:07:39,559 --> 01:07:41,539
that speak this open interoperable protocol

1114
01:07:41,539 --> 01:07:44,939
and you use whichever one fits you best.

1115
01:07:44,939 --> 01:07:50,879
And if none of them really scratch your itch, then you just build your own one and do that.

1116
01:07:51,959 --> 01:08:00,119
So speaking, so then I guess now it should slowly be time to actually be able to send and receive money, right?

1117
01:08:00,119 --> 01:08:06,099
Because first of all, we want to get stats for the posts that we make, but also we want to say thanks to the others.

1118
01:08:06,939 --> 01:08:09,119
So I think let's get started with the wallets.

1119
01:08:09,779 --> 01:08:10,199
Let's do it.

1120
01:08:10,199 --> 01:08:14,699
Let's start with one that's easy, fast, cheap, and super private.

1121
01:08:15,019 --> 01:08:16,739
And that's cashu.me.

1122
01:08:17,079 --> 01:08:23,439
That's a browser-based wallet, which you can install on your home screen as a kind of progressive web app,

1123
01:08:23,799 --> 01:08:32,519
which you can receive and send Bitcoin in a custodial form, very fast, very private, very cheap,

1124
01:08:32,859 --> 01:08:34,459
and compatible with the Lightning network.

1125
01:08:34,459 --> 01:08:38,739
so this is I think the easiest way to get a lightning address

1126
01:08:38,739 --> 01:08:43,799
so that you can receive money from anyone all the time 24-7

1127
01:08:43,799 --> 01:08:47,299
and yeah that can be configured here

1128
01:08:47,299 --> 01:08:51,079
so this also shows it because it's in the browser

1129
01:08:51,079 --> 01:08:52,499
it's very censorship resistant

1130
01:08:52,499 --> 01:08:57,359
like the app store cannot stop Kale from making improvements to this app

1131
01:08:57,359 --> 01:09:00,559
so you get updates almost every day which is really cool

1132
01:09:01,299 --> 01:09:03,959
And yeah, definitely check out this wallet.

1133
01:09:04,139 --> 01:09:06,779
Great for sending and receiving small amounts of Bitcoin.

1134
01:09:07,859 --> 01:09:10,559
With the big caveat that this is a custodial system,

1135
01:09:10,719 --> 01:09:13,379
so someone else has the actual Bitcoin and they could run away.

1136
01:09:14,019 --> 01:09:18,259
So once you have more than you're comfortable to lose on there,

1137
01:09:18,779 --> 01:09:21,979
you should move to a more secure alternative where you do have self-custody.

1138
01:09:22,499 --> 01:09:24,999
And the next step up for this would be a Lightning wallet.

1139
01:09:25,199 --> 01:09:27,599
And the one that just works is Phoenix.

1140
01:09:27,599 --> 01:09:35,179
it's a bit expensive especially compared to cashio but it it just works all the time it works with

1141
01:09:35,179 --> 01:09:42,659
even large amounts but for it's kind of the medium-sized wallets that where you cannot

1142
01:09:42,659 --> 01:09:46,859
receive easily payments when you're offline and so this is not the right wallet to use for your

1143
01:09:46,859 --> 01:09:51,459
post posts because there are people might want to send your money when you're sleeping and the phone

1144
01:09:51,459 --> 01:09:58,239
is offline so for this something like cash q or server wallet is better but for paying your coffee

1145
01:09:58,239 --> 01:10:03,799
in in the cafe or or showing a friend the qr code so that he can pay you back this wallet is great

1146
01:10:03,799 --> 01:10:10,939
a next step up then is is for you your your actual savings right stuff that you don't want

1147
01:10:10,939 --> 01:10:24,651
to easily spend where you want to have a more secure environment probably use a hardware wallet and for this the nunchuck wallet is very good Here you can manage single signature wallets but also multi wallets

1148
01:10:24,831 --> 01:10:30,431
where you need multiple private keys or multiple hardware wallets to actually approve a transaction

1149
01:10:30,431 --> 01:10:35,871
before the money can move. Incredibly powerful technology, not just for your own savings,

1150
01:10:36,571 --> 01:10:41,431
because, you know, you could have a hardware wallet on each continent. And if you want to

1151
01:10:41,431 --> 01:10:46,551
spend your money out of your multi-generational savings vault, then yeah, you do need to travel a

1152
01:10:46,551 --> 01:10:51,831
bit before you can spend it, which, you know, gives you enough time to reconsider if you actually want

1153
01:10:51,831 --> 01:10:58,371
to move the money of your grandkids and spend them on whatever frivolous, you know, consumerism

1154
01:10:58,371 --> 01:11:04,451
culture, and hopefully you reconsider and your grandchildren might thank you very dearly for that.

1155
01:11:04,871 --> 01:11:08,551
But also, if someone shows up with a $5 wrench and hits you until you give him the money,

1156
01:11:08,551 --> 01:11:11,811
you can tell him, yeah, sure, I'll give you the money,

1157
01:11:12,051 --> 01:11:14,231
but you'll need to hop on a flight with me

1158
01:11:14,231 --> 01:11:15,591
and go to this other country

1159
01:11:15,591 --> 01:11:19,271
and go to a bank vault or wherever

1160
01:11:19,271 --> 01:11:21,091
where I have the password to the hardware wallet.

1161
01:11:21,851 --> 01:11:25,971
So these types of things can be all configured with Nunchuck

1162
01:11:25,971 --> 01:11:28,891
and they can also connect to your own Bitcoin full node,

1163
01:11:29,031 --> 01:11:29,991
which is quite important.

1164
01:11:30,851 --> 01:11:33,291
So yeah, these are three wallets worth considering.

1165
01:11:33,911 --> 01:11:35,411
There's many more, of course.

1166
01:11:35,411 --> 01:11:38,871
I guess Zeus is another noteworthy mention.

1167
01:11:40,871 --> 01:11:41,311
Yeah.

1168
01:11:44,091 --> 01:11:45,391
Yeah, Phoenix is great.

1169
01:11:45,511 --> 01:11:49,331
I mean, all of them that you mentioned are great.

1170
01:11:49,791 --> 01:11:51,051
But, you know, one recurrent,

1171
01:11:51,111 --> 01:11:54,091
and I'll bring up the one that I wanted to talk about, Max,

1172
01:11:54,311 --> 01:11:55,851
which I hinted at earlier.

1173
01:11:56,471 --> 01:11:58,951
Every single use case you brought up, right?

1174
01:11:59,071 --> 01:12:00,571
So you're talking about Zap Store,

1175
01:12:01,031 --> 01:12:02,031
how do you trust the software?

1176
01:12:02,351 --> 01:12:04,731
Yes, you're sovereign, but you need to trust the software.

1177
01:12:05,251 --> 01:12:05,931
You brought up Fountain.

1178
01:12:06,111 --> 01:12:07,811
Well, how do you find the podcast that,

1179
01:12:08,651 --> 01:12:10,191
I mean, there are thousands of podcasts out there.

1180
01:12:10,231 --> 01:12:13,411
How do you find something that actually you would like?

1181
01:12:14,731 --> 01:12:17,051
Fountain doesn't have a central algorithm,

1182
01:12:17,051 --> 01:12:19,211
as far as I know, but Apple and Spotify do.

1183
01:12:19,211 --> 01:12:23,251
And they force crap onto you that's good for them,

1184
01:12:23,371 --> 01:12:24,951
but not necessarily good for you.

1185
01:12:25,531 --> 01:12:26,451
We talked about music.

1186
01:12:26,571 --> 01:12:28,951
How do you find music that you like?

1187
01:12:29,091 --> 01:12:31,131
There's thousands of musicians making,

1188
01:12:31,491 --> 01:12:32,851
some of them making incredible music,

1189
01:12:32,971 --> 01:12:33,911
but how do you discover them?

1190
01:12:34,151 --> 01:12:36,551
Discoverability is an issue, especially if they're unknown.

1191
01:12:37,851 --> 01:12:40,971
And then what was the last one you were talking about?

1192
01:12:40,971 --> 01:12:43,231
Oh, yeah, you were talking about mints.

1193
01:12:43,831 --> 01:12:44,671
How do you find them?

1194
01:12:44,811 --> 01:12:45,671
Right, it's custodial.

1195
01:12:45,931 --> 01:12:49,891
But can there be a situation where you have a choice of mints

1196
01:12:49,891 --> 01:12:54,271
and then you can choose one that you can trust somehow, right,

1197
01:12:54,351 --> 01:12:55,211
given the choice?

1198
01:12:55,471 --> 01:12:59,831
And I would extend that to stuff like coin joins as well, coordinators.

1199
01:12:59,831 --> 01:13:02,511
How do you pick the right coordinator for your coin join

1200
01:13:02,511 --> 01:13:04,051
and so on and so forth.

1201
01:13:04,591 --> 01:13:07,791
And I think there are several other use cases

1202
01:13:07,791 --> 01:13:10,231
that I can pose as a similar problem.

1203
01:13:10,411 --> 01:13:12,851
But I think you get the picture here, Max,

1204
01:13:12,851 --> 01:13:16,051
which is the overarching theme here is one of trust.

1205
01:13:16,851 --> 01:13:19,371
And to me, this is one of the foundational

1206
01:13:19,371 --> 01:13:22,431
and not entirely solved cypher problems

1207
01:13:22,431 --> 01:13:25,831
in a truly decentralized sovereign distributed system.

1208
01:13:26,911 --> 01:13:31,451
How do you get, how do you solve the issue of trust

1209
01:13:31,451 --> 01:13:34,911
without creating a centralized gatekeeper.

1210
01:13:36,731 --> 01:13:40,451
Yeah, I think you do this by human connections.

1211
01:13:41,591 --> 01:13:47,851
The way that PGP, the OG email encryption and software signature software,

1212
01:13:49,091 --> 01:13:54,211
the way that you established a web of trust was by meeting someone in person

1213
01:13:54,211 --> 01:13:58,851
and handing him over a physical piece of paper that had your name

1214
01:13:58,851 --> 01:14:01,711
and your public key identifier on there.

1215
01:14:02,491 --> 01:14:06,031
And this way, the other person was sure that this person,

1216
01:14:06,591 --> 01:14:10,131
he might even ask you for an ID that he can verify the name,

1217
01:14:11,311 --> 01:14:14,031
that he says that this is my key.

1218
01:14:14,391 --> 01:14:18,031
And this wasn't some dog on the internet pretending to be him.

1219
01:14:18,091 --> 01:14:19,111
This was him in person.

1220
01:14:19,111 --> 01:14:21,331
I touched his hand, shook his hand,

1221
01:14:21,651 --> 01:14:24,971
and he was made of flesh and bones and blood.

1222
01:14:25,671 --> 01:14:28,531
So that is a good anchor point.

1223
01:14:28,851 --> 01:14:31,391
to establish a web of trust.

1224
01:14:31,991 --> 01:14:34,511
And I would encourage us actually to do this more in Nostra.

1225
01:14:34,651 --> 01:14:35,991
We don't really do it that much.

1226
01:14:37,471 --> 01:14:39,211
When we meet at a conference,

1227
01:14:39,751 --> 01:14:42,391
there should be a cool app that you can scan someone else's public key

1228
01:14:42,391 --> 01:14:47,251
and get him to verify that, yes, this is actually me.

1229
01:14:47,571 --> 01:14:49,491
And we could make a special type of Nostra event

1230
01:14:49,491 --> 01:14:52,291
that attests that, hey, I've met this guy in person.

1231
01:14:52,831 --> 01:14:54,791
Maybe even the location or the context

1232
01:14:54,791 --> 01:14:57,011
or some other metadata that he would want to reveal.

1233
01:14:57,011 --> 01:15:03,151
but this type of connection can then be interpreted.

1234
01:15:03,951 --> 01:15:05,431
And the good thing is first of all,

1235
01:15:05,571 --> 01:15:07,151
we have an open playing field

1236
01:15:07,151 --> 01:15:09,791
in what type of data do we create?

1237
01:15:10,051 --> 01:15:12,291
Like how exactly does this attestation look like?

1238
01:15:12,671 --> 01:15:14,051
Is it just a following list?

1239
01:15:14,231 --> 01:15:15,811
That's how most people do it right now.

1240
01:15:16,171 --> 01:15:18,431
It could be much more nuanced than that.

1241
01:15:19,091 --> 01:15:20,291
But then also the question is

1242
01:15:20,291 --> 01:15:23,831
how do we interpret all of these attestation events

1243
01:15:23,831 --> 01:15:26,471
and display the result to the user?

1244
01:15:26,471 --> 01:15:29,091
And for this algorithm, there's also a bunch of choice.

1245
01:15:29,611 --> 01:15:32,771
You can run a different algorithm over the same set of data

1246
01:15:32,771 --> 01:15:34,691
and get vastly different results.

1247
01:15:35,391 --> 01:15:38,511
And this means that ultimately we have competition

1248
01:15:38,511 --> 01:15:41,991
of many different ways that we could approach this topic

1249
01:15:41,991 --> 01:15:44,931
and many developers working on better solutions

1250
01:15:44,931 --> 01:15:47,771
and you as the end user will just use an app

1251
01:15:47,771 --> 01:15:50,651
that implements one of them and it either works or it doesn't.

1252
01:15:51,131 --> 01:15:54,111
And you can move on to another better app if you find one.

1253
01:15:54,111 --> 01:16:01,691
vertex is one easy web of trust algorithm that we currently have implemented it uses a similar

1254
01:16:01,691 --> 01:16:07,591
algorithm to google's page rank as they originally started out with you know these web of trust

1255
01:16:07,591 --> 01:16:12,211
algorithms are quite simple if you actually look at them they're not rocket science and they kind

1256
01:16:12,211 --> 01:16:17,071
of work you know they and there's a bunch of existing research here that that we can apply

1257
01:16:17,071 --> 01:16:22,051
so this is really not that much of an issue but what it enables us is as you say you can find

1258
01:16:22,051 --> 01:16:25,771
solutions or services that your friends recommend.

1259
01:16:26,591 --> 01:16:29,171
A perfect one is KashQ, right?

1260
01:16:29,211 --> 01:16:30,091
This eCache system,

1261
01:16:30,511 --> 01:16:31,871
where in KashQ.me,

1262
01:16:32,211 --> 01:16:34,331
you can click a button and you see

1263
01:16:34,331 --> 01:16:36,691
what are all of the available mints

1264
01:16:36,691 --> 01:16:38,751
that I could connect to.

1265
01:16:38,751 --> 01:16:42,171
Because Noster mints announce themselves to the network.

1266
01:16:43,171 --> 01:16:44,071
And then also you can see,

1267
01:16:44,491 --> 01:16:47,051
do any of my friends leave a recommendation

1268
01:16:47,051 --> 01:16:49,031
for any of these mints?

1269
01:16:49,631 --> 01:16:51,171
And now you can filter it.

1270
01:16:51,171 --> 01:16:56,171
And at the top of the list, you will see the mint that most of your friends have given a positive review.

1271
01:16:57,071 --> 01:17:01,671
And then, again, at least we're in the same boat together when it sinks and the guy rug pulls us.

1272
01:17:01,891 --> 01:17:04,931
But that is a nice assurance to have.

1273
01:17:06,551 --> 01:17:08,551
Equally with CoinJoin coordinators, right?

1274
01:17:08,611 --> 01:17:20,091
In Wasabi Wallet, their now new CoinJoin coordinators announced themselves on the Nostra network with a new event kind number that clearly says, hey, this is a CoinJoin coordination announcement.

1275
01:17:20,871 --> 01:17:25,231
There's the name of the server, the URL where you can reach them,

1276
01:17:25,511 --> 01:17:27,891
and then you can get the fees, et cetera, that they're charging.

1277
01:17:28,431 --> 01:17:32,371
And you can display that in an app so that users just click

1278
01:17:32,371 --> 01:17:34,551
and it automatically connects them to this coordinator.

1279
01:17:35,391 --> 01:17:38,271
And anyone can build these types of interfaces.

1280
01:17:39,171 --> 01:17:40,931
So that's the cool thing.

1281
01:17:40,931 --> 01:17:44,551
The wallet developer doesn't have to add these features.

1282
01:17:45,131 --> 01:17:49,091
We can have a dedicated client optimized for this type of review process,

1283
01:17:49,091 --> 01:17:51,251
and the user just uses two apps.

1284
01:17:51,511 --> 01:17:52,451
That's not a big of a deal.

1285
01:17:53,851 --> 01:17:53,951
Yeah.

1286
01:17:54,471 --> 01:17:56,171
Well, you know, Vitor Pamplona

1287
01:17:56,171 --> 01:17:59,831
developed trusted assertions, NIP85,

1288
01:18:00,751 --> 01:18:03,671
which is a way of delivering web of trust scores.

1289
01:18:03,851 --> 01:18:05,191
Right now, how they're computed

1290
01:18:05,191 --> 01:18:06,231
can be this open,

1291
01:18:06,491 --> 01:18:07,871
some kind of open source algorithm.

1292
01:18:08,011 --> 01:18:09,351
I'm not sure Vertex is open source,

1293
01:18:09,471 --> 01:18:11,151
but you can have a,

1294
01:18:11,631 --> 01:18:12,611
in an ideal world,

1295
01:18:12,651 --> 01:18:14,331
you want an algorithm that's fully transparent

1296
01:18:14,331 --> 01:18:15,791
and configurable, right?

1297
01:18:15,811 --> 01:18:17,371
You can just use one signal

1298
01:18:17,371 --> 01:18:19,391
to calculate a web of trust score,

1299
01:18:19,511 --> 01:18:20,871
and that could just be followers.

1300
01:18:21,251 --> 01:18:23,571
Or you could add multiple signals, economic signals,

1301
01:18:23,771 --> 01:18:27,191
like zaps, like replies to posts,

1302
01:18:27,251 --> 01:18:29,891
if you're trying to look at who's a good person to follow.

1303
01:18:30,271 --> 01:18:34,811
Or for music, it'll be a slightly different contextual set of signals.

1304
01:18:34,811 --> 01:18:38,571
For food, restaurant recommendations, it's a different context,

1305
01:18:38,631 --> 01:18:39,171
a different set.

1306
01:18:39,351 --> 01:18:43,771
So it's configurable, it's personalized to each individual user,

1307
01:18:44,111 --> 01:18:46,651
it's contextualized within a given user, right?

1308
01:18:46,651 --> 01:18:55,891
Because your web of trust for music recommendations will likely be very different from your web of trust for coin joint coordinator recommendations, right?

1309
01:18:55,951 --> 01:19:01,451
So I think we, and then you have a pretty cool and open delivery mechanism.

1310
01:19:01,631 --> 01:19:02,771
It's not behind an API.

1311
01:19:03,091 --> 01:19:05,411
It's a Nostra event, NIP85.

1312
01:19:05,551 --> 01:19:07,951
I can't remember the kind number, right?

1313
01:19:08,071 --> 01:19:11,151
And you just need a client that can digest that.

1314
01:19:11,151 --> 01:19:15,191
and then you have an open and transparent view

1315
01:19:15,191 --> 01:19:17,151
from a user's perspective

1316
01:19:17,151 --> 01:19:23,211
for how your content gets filtered

1317
01:19:23,211 --> 01:19:24,251
and you get to choose it.

1318
01:19:24,311 --> 01:19:25,511
No one chooses that for you.

1319
01:19:27,531 --> 01:19:28,091
Yeah.

1320
01:19:28,691 --> 01:19:30,991
And one of the other main ways

1321
01:19:30,991 --> 01:19:33,951
that we get notified about useful information

1322
01:19:33,951 --> 01:19:37,431
is that a friend sends it to us in a private message.

1323
01:19:38,091 --> 01:19:40,691
And so this is one of the other problems

1324
01:19:40,691 --> 01:19:43,191
that we need to solve, how do we actually talk to our friends?

1325
01:19:43,851 --> 01:19:44,791
That's very important.

1326
01:19:45,731 --> 01:19:47,431
And it's not just friends and family.

1327
01:19:48,031 --> 01:19:52,011
It's other developers, people working on your projects,

1328
01:19:52,311 --> 01:19:58,371
colleagues, friends in spirit and people to talk to.

1329
01:19:59,191 --> 01:20:01,971
And that is an important need to satisfy.

1330
01:20:02,751 --> 01:20:05,551
With the identity system of Noster

1331
01:20:05,551 --> 01:20:08,811
and the censorship resistance that the relays give us,

1332
01:20:08,811 --> 01:20:16,791
but in addition to that secure solid unbreakable encryption and encryption in a way that it doesn't

1333
01:20:16,791 --> 01:20:22,951
only work for two people but it works for 2 000 people as well because some groups get really big

1334
01:20:22,951 --> 01:20:28,231
and and we require the collaboration of a large amount of people and and so having a secure way

1335
01:20:28,231 --> 01:20:34,031
for them to talk privately using nostril rails is super important and so a good app to install for

1336
01:20:34,031 --> 01:20:40,471
this is white noise you can get it on zap store as well and this is a chat app kind of like signal

1337
01:20:40,471 --> 01:20:45,731
or telegram but you don't have to log in with a phone number you can just create a new nostor

1338
01:20:45,731 --> 01:20:52,871
private key or log in with your existing one and then start chatting to others and it uses

1339
01:20:52,871 --> 01:20:58,511
your your key and and your following list so you will see all of the friends that you have and you

1340
01:20:58,511 --> 01:21:06,571
can just write them and it uses nostril relays to send the messages reliably either you can use

1341
01:21:06,571 --> 01:21:11,871
public relays like you know primal damos etc or you can run your own relay if you would like

1342
01:21:11,871 --> 01:21:17,031
in the future we could even connect directly to the citrine relay that is running on your phone

1343
01:21:17,031 --> 01:21:23,251
right so you send direct peer-to-peer messages via the tor network directly from one phone to

1344
01:21:23,251 --> 01:21:31,231
the other. So all of this is possible in the future. And the cool thing is that White Noise

1345
01:21:31,231 --> 01:21:37,231
is not just a standalone application, but this is actually a protocol called Marmot, which brings

1346
01:21:37,231 --> 01:21:47,391
together Noster and Blossom and MLS, this encryption scheme, to have a bundle of tools that others can

1347
01:21:47,391 --> 01:21:53,111
use to create applications that send private messages and hopefully in a way that it's all

1348
01:21:53,111 --> 01:22:07,403
interoperable So primal users can create a group with another Damos user and an Amethyst user and a White Noise user and they can now send and receive messages in this group together even though that every one of them uses a different application

1349
01:22:08,383 --> 01:22:11,723
And that means not only that users have the ultimate choice

1350
01:22:11,723 --> 01:22:14,883
in a hopefully large amount of different apps,

1351
01:22:15,363 --> 01:22:18,783
but even better that if there is no app that you would like

1352
01:22:18,783 --> 01:22:21,123
that does the one thing that you would really like it to do,

1353
01:22:21,583 --> 01:22:24,083
then you can just create your own one, right?

1354
01:22:24,083 --> 01:22:27,463
and make an app that is exactly how you like it,

1355
01:22:27,743 --> 01:22:29,523
maybe themed to your community

1356
01:22:29,523 --> 01:22:32,803
and you have a dedicated private chat app

1357
01:22:32,803 --> 01:22:35,223
for your church community or whatever it is.

1358
01:22:35,943 --> 01:22:38,123
So this is quite powerful.

1359
01:22:38,703 --> 01:22:42,483
And also it allows that developers of existing applications

1360
01:22:42,483 --> 01:22:45,163
can just make an upgrade to their app

1361
01:22:45,163 --> 01:22:47,703
and all of a sudden people can chat with people

1362
01:22:47,703 --> 01:22:49,463
outside their applications.

1363
01:22:50,143 --> 01:22:52,443
And so this is going to be quite nice

1364
01:22:52,443 --> 01:22:56,363
when big clients like Primal and Damos, et cetera,

1365
01:22:56,583 --> 01:22:58,003
are finally going to add.

1366
01:22:59,583 --> 01:23:02,803
So Max, I think it'll be helpful to clarify this for folks.

1367
01:23:02,883 --> 01:23:04,943
And we have Condelorian and a couple of others

1368
01:23:04,943 --> 01:23:08,863
in the Zap stream chat asking for a clarification here

1369
01:23:08,863 --> 01:23:12,763
because when the Marmot announcement came out,

1370
01:23:13,083 --> 01:23:15,103
some people were confused, which is,

1371
01:23:15,203 --> 01:23:17,003
hey, I thought White Noise,

1372
01:23:18,203 --> 01:23:19,763
you were working on White Noise,

1373
01:23:19,863 --> 01:23:20,983
what is this Marmot business?

1374
01:23:20,983 --> 01:23:23,643
and since you're

1375
01:23:23,643 --> 01:23:26,223
deeply involved

1376
01:23:26,223 --> 01:23:27,163
in our project, Max

1377
01:23:27,163 --> 01:23:28,843
if you could help clarify

1378
01:23:28,843 --> 01:23:31,983
so Marmot is the

1379
01:23:31,983 --> 01:23:32,803
protocol which

1380
01:23:32,803 --> 01:23:35,923
you mentioned MLS, Blossom

1381
01:23:35,923 --> 01:23:37,423
Noster Relays and so on

1382
01:23:37,423 --> 01:23:40,063
and then white noise is the reference implementation

1383
01:23:40,063 --> 01:23:41,763
can there be other reference

1384
01:23:41,763 --> 01:23:44,063
implementations and if this messaging

1385
01:23:44,063 --> 01:23:45,743
comes to a primal for instance

1386
01:23:45,743 --> 01:23:47,743
they would be integrating

1387
01:23:47,743 --> 01:23:49,303
the Marmot protocol, right?

1388
01:23:49,303 --> 01:23:51,383
They wouldn't be integrating white noise.

1389
01:23:51,683 --> 01:23:54,443
So, you know, these types of slightly confusing questions,

1390
01:23:54,743 --> 01:23:56,563
it would be super helpful if you can clarify that.

1391
01:23:57,923 --> 01:24:00,883
Yeah, that's always a bit tricky in the nuances, right?

1392
01:24:00,903 --> 01:24:02,723
But you basically hit the nail on the head.

1393
01:24:03,463 --> 01:24:06,443
So there is the Marmot protocol,

1394
01:24:07,163 --> 01:24:10,283
which is a combination of three other protocols, right?

1395
01:24:10,363 --> 01:24:11,843
Noster, Blossom, and MLS.

1396
01:24:12,403 --> 01:24:15,143
And this protocol is implemented in a library

1397
01:24:15,143 --> 01:24:17,843
called the Marmot Developer Kit, right?

1398
01:24:17,843 --> 01:24:21,023
written in Rust, as well as the Marmot TypeScript library as well.

1399
01:24:21,683 --> 01:24:29,003
And now people can use this library to add to their chat app and make it work.

1400
01:24:29,763 --> 01:24:34,623
So originally, this whole quest started not because we thought that,

1401
01:24:34,623 --> 01:24:36,343
hey, we need another chat messenger.

1402
01:24:36,603 --> 01:24:40,123
That's really the one thing that's missing is a new chat app.

1403
01:24:41,083 --> 01:24:43,523
Because there are like a million chat apps already.

1404
01:24:44,203 --> 01:24:46,563
But what we realized is that's missing

1405
01:24:46,563 --> 01:24:50,443
is that the Noster protocol suite

1406
01:24:50,443 --> 01:24:52,283
and all of the collection of protocols

1407
01:24:52,283 --> 01:24:53,083
that we have in Noster,

1408
01:24:53,663 --> 01:24:56,023
none of them really address group messaging

1409
01:24:56,023 --> 01:24:56,963
in a private setting.

1410
01:24:57,743 --> 01:24:59,623
And we really need that.

1411
01:24:59,743 --> 01:25:01,703
A lot of good use cases open up

1412
01:25:01,703 --> 01:25:03,863
if we would have that tool in our toolbox.

1413
01:25:04,663 --> 01:25:07,023
So it was from the beginning the goal

1414
01:25:07,023 --> 01:25:08,563
to create a protocol

1415
01:25:08,563 --> 01:25:11,303
that all the Noster developers can use.

1416
01:25:12,143 --> 01:25:15,843
And, well, how do you best create a protocol?

1417
01:25:16,523 --> 01:25:20,183
By actually working on an app that tries to implement that protocol.

1418
01:25:20,423 --> 01:25:23,203
Because nothing beats actually doing it.

1419
01:25:23,763 --> 01:25:28,083
And it's even best if you don't just work on one library,

1420
01:25:28,223 --> 01:25:30,663
one implementation of this protocol, but even two of them.

1421
01:25:31,103 --> 01:25:33,703
Recently, we started work on this TypeScript implementation.

1422
01:25:34,203 --> 01:25:39,403
And the guys working on it instantly found a bunch of bugs in our Rust implementation.

1423
01:25:39,403 --> 01:25:44,263
simply because, you know, things are hard.

1424
01:25:45,043 --> 01:25:47,863
Sometimes if a fresh pair of eyes looks over a problem,

1425
01:25:48,023 --> 01:25:50,423
they will see a bunch of ways of how to solve it better.

1426
01:25:50,883 --> 01:25:52,243
And that's exactly what happened here.

1427
01:25:52,783 --> 01:25:55,483
And hopefully we can continue this a couple times,

1428
01:25:55,563 --> 01:25:58,923
that every time a new person is implementing the protocol,

1429
01:25:59,103 --> 01:26:01,003
they will see ways of making it better.

1430
01:26:01,683 --> 01:26:07,323
And so gradually we will have a solid, holistic set of protocols

1431
01:26:07,323 --> 01:26:13,743
that fully encompass all of the use cases needed for secure private messaging.

1432
01:26:14,523 --> 01:26:19,523
Because it's more than just one thing.

1433
01:26:19,703 --> 01:26:24,363
It's like 20 different sub-problems that need to be addressed.

1434
01:26:24,363 --> 01:26:30,963
And this is also why we moved away from using the Nostra NIP repo and standardization body.

1435
01:26:31,423 --> 01:26:34,503
Because it's not just one standalone thing.

1436
01:26:34,503 --> 01:26:42,523
We already have now, I think, six different protocol documents that each cover different areas of it.

1437
01:26:43,183 --> 01:26:48,603
And so it's slowly turning into a small book of standardization text.

1438
01:26:49,423 --> 01:26:59,323
And having that separated and clearly modularly defined and do one thing and do it well, that's the philosophy that we're going for here.

1439
01:26:59,323 --> 01:27:11,003
So if you talk about the average NOSTA user who might not be super technical, I mean, look, anyone who's on NOSTA is semi-technical for sure, right?

1440
01:27:11,023 --> 01:27:14,843
But maybe they don't understand the intricacies of protocol design.

1441
01:27:15,503 --> 01:27:21,183
And they're like, look, I don't want to use NOSTA DMs because they're horrible for privacy.

1442
01:27:22,103 --> 01:27:23,543
I don't want to use Telegram.

1443
01:27:23,703 --> 01:27:24,623
I don't want to use Signal.

1444
01:27:24,623 --> 01:27:29,463
I want something on Nostra that just works, right?

1445
01:27:29,483 --> 01:27:33,243
That gives me close to a Telegram-like user experience

1446
01:27:33,243 --> 01:27:34,203
for my group chats.

1447
01:27:35,563 --> 01:27:37,023
When can I expect it?

1448
01:27:37,363 --> 01:27:39,643
And is White Noise what that's going to be

1449
01:27:39,643 --> 01:27:40,883
or is it going to be something else?

1450
01:27:42,983 --> 01:27:45,363
Yeah, hopefully White Noise will be one of the apps

1451
01:27:45,363 --> 01:27:46,223
that you could choose here.

1452
01:27:46,383 --> 01:27:48,903
And hopefully there will be many that are all good enough.

1453
01:27:49,623 --> 01:27:52,403
But ultimately, White Noise will probably be

1454
01:27:52,403 --> 01:27:53,603
the first one to get there

1455
01:27:53,603 --> 01:27:56,523
just because we've been working on it for a long time.

1456
01:27:56,703 --> 01:27:58,523
And it is a decent chunk of work.

1457
01:28:00,183 --> 01:28:01,723
But yeah, ultimately for you,

1458
01:28:01,843 --> 01:28:04,143
it will just be installing the app,

1459
01:28:04,263 --> 01:28:07,463
logging in and messaging your friends and that's it.

1460
01:28:07,643 --> 01:28:09,443
So when is that ready?

1461
01:28:09,663 --> 01:28:11,023
You can download it right now.

1462
01:28:11,523 --> 01:28:13,963
In fact, we're just now about to cut a new release,

1463
01:28:14,063 --> 01:28:15,223
version 0.2.0.

1464
01:28:15,903 --> 01:28:20,423
So it's slowly starting to feel like an actually usable app.

1465
01:28:21,183 --> 01:28:24,863
This next release or newest release comes with notifications,

1466
01:28:25,223 --> 01:28:26,843
which work quite well on Android, actually,

1467
01:28:27,003 --> 01:28:30,603
without having any third-party server involved, which is great.

1468
01:28:31,263 --> 01:28:33,803
And also the ability to send images.

1469
01:28:34,543 --> 01:28:36,123
But there are so many things still missing.

1470
01:28:36,443 --> 01:28:37,763
You can't send voice messages.

1471
01:28:38,503 --> 01:28:41,543
You still cannot kick people out of a group or delete them.

1472
01:28:41,543 --> 01:28:44,403
The whole administration workflow of a group,

1473
01:28:44,543 --> 01:28:48,023
to have group admins and selective permissions and so on.

1474
01:28:48,023 --> 01:28:56,303
and you know million and one little user experience hiccups where the white space is not great and

1475
01:28:56,303 --> 01:29:04,303
and i don't know press duration is not optimized small animations are are missing we actually do

1476
01:29:04,303 --> 01:29:11,203
want to re or overhaul and further improve the user experience entirely so there's so many so

1477
01:29:11,203 --> 01:29:19,223
many things to do that yeah if you are expecting a polished product wait another half a year or a

1478
01:29:19,223 --> 01:29:26,003
year if you're willing to tolerate a bit of a an ugly app that doesn't do all the things it should

1479
01:29:26,003 --> 01:29:32,763
yet and you want to experiment and give us feedback then yeah check it out it it works like

1480
01:29:32,763 --> 01:29:41,043
it sends messages back and forth and they are very well encrypted and yeah i mean i wouldn't put

1481
01:29:41,043 --> 01:29:46,383
like don't don't put your life into it yet like if if your life depends on the security

1482
01:29:46,383 --> 01:29:53,603
and deliverability of these messages then please wait because it's hard to build software that

1483
01:29:53,603 --> 01:30:02,983
actually can protect lives yeah so if a if a dhamus or a primal or noster or amethyst said okay

1484
01:30:02,983 --> 01:30:09,863
you know what we we don't want to do nipple for dms we don't want to do nip 17 isn't that great

1485
01:30:09,863 --> 01:30:12,023
either, the gift wrap stuff. I think it's Nip 70.

1486
01:30:12,483 --> 01:30:13,943
Maybe I'm mixing the numbers up.

1487
01:30:15,423 --> 01:30:18,183
So let's, I'm ready.

1488
01:30:18,343 --> 01:30:19,523
My body is ready for

1489
01:30:19,523 --> 01:30:21,943
incorporating

1490
01:30:21,943 --> 01:30:23,943
really proper privacy into

1491
01:30:23,943 --> 01:30:25,983
my DMs. They can then go

1492
01:30:25,983 --> 01:30:28,323
to the Marmot protocol, look at the documentation

1493
01:30:28,323 --> 01:30:29,883
and then

1494
01:30:29,883 --> 01:30:31,943
build it themselves into their

1495
01:30:31,943 --> 01:30:32,843
DM

1496
01:30:32,843 --> 01:30:36,163
capability in their

1497
01:30:36,163 --> 01:30:38,043
app, correct? Exactly.

1498
01:30:38,043 --> 01:30:43,843
And what they don't have to implement is all of the craziness of how do we come up with private keys?

1499
01:30:43,983 --> 01:30:45,183
How do we encrypt stuff?

1500
01:30:45,783 --> 01:30:47,403
How do we kick people out of the group?

1501
01:30:47,843 --> 01:30:53,463
All of these scary things are first of all handled in the MLS implementation itself.

1502
01:30:53,643 --> 01:30:59,643
And then even further handled and nostrified by our Marmot developer kit library.

1503
01:31:00,563 --> 01:31:06,943
And so for the end developer, it's like, hey, create a group, you know, title this, description this.

1504
01:31:06,943 --> 01:31:10,443
and you send that and the group is done.

1505
01:31:10,783 --> 01:31:12,483
And then, okay, add a person to the group

1506
01:31:12,483 --> 01:31:15,783
and that's the end part of the person you want to add

1507
01:31:15,783 --> 01:31:18,983
and done, he gets added by the magic black box

1508
01:31:18,983 --> 01:31:19,523
in the background.

1509
01:31:20,283 --> 01:31:22,823
And send a message, send a reaction, whatever.

1510
01:31:23,403 --> 01:31:26,583
All of these functions should be very easy,

1511
01:31:26,723 --> 01:31:27,543
developer friendly.

1512
01:31:27,943 --> 01:31:30,183
So you really don't have to worry about

1513
01:31:30,183 --> 01:31:33,923
the crazy encryption and other things.

1514
01:31:34,083 --> 01:31:36,483
You just worry about building a cool user interface

1515
01:31:36,483 --> 01:31:40,123
and a cool user experience for an awesome product.

1516
01:31:40,463 --> 01:31:43,663
And the encryption and message delivery

1517
01:31:43,663 --> 01:31:46,423
just gets delivered to you with batteries included.

1518
01:31:49,583 --> 01:31:50,223
Great.

1519
01:31:51,143 --> 01:31:55,363
All right, so I know we're at the 90-minute mark, Max.

1520
01:31:55,363 --> 01:31:57,763
I'll give you one more Cypherpunk project

1521
01:31:57,763 --> 01:32:00,443
that has got me super excited.

1522
01:32:01,023 --> 01:32:04,483
And in fact, it's something you hinted about

1523
01:32:04,483 --> 01:32:09,203
and when we were at a friend's place in Paraguay

1524
01:32:09,203 --> 01:32:12,043
like last month, hanging out,

1525
01:32:12,163 --> 01:32:15,023
and you said, oh, someone might be building

1526
01:32:15,023 --> 01:32:21,423
this onion-routed postage delivery thing.

1527
01:32:21,583 --> 01:32:23,683
And I said, this sounds incredible.

1528
01:32:25,203 --> 01:32:28,103
But I don't think you knew who it was.

1529
01:32:28,183 --> 01:32:29,723
You just heard it on the grapevine.

1530
01:32:30,923 --> 01:32:33,723
By complete coincidence, I was at Nosterville

1531
01:32:33,723 --> 01:32:36,783
a small NOSTA gathering at Bitcoin Park

1532
01:32:36,783 --> 01:32:37,863
a week or two ago

1533
01:32:37,863 --> 01:32:39,743
and I bumped into Shadrach

1534
01:32:39,743 --> 01:32:42,243
and I was saying, hey

1535
01:32:42,243 --> 01:32:44,463
we were just exchanging ideas

1536
01:32:44,463 --> 01:32:44,923
about

1537
01:32:44,923 --> 01:32:48,723
different NOSTA projects we thought were cool

1538
01:32:48,723 --> 01:32:50,663
and I'd mentioned

1539
01:32:50,663 --> 01:32:52,023
that you told me about this

1540
01:32:52,023 --> 01:32:54,823
this onion routed

1541
01:32:54,823 --> 01:32:55,903
courier service

1542
01:32:55,903 --> 01:32:58,523
and he said, wait a second, I'm the one building that

1543
01:32:58,523 --> 01:33:00,783
so I thought

1544
01:33:00,783 --> 01:33:01,723
that was pretty funny

1545
01:33:01,723 --> 01:33:04,663
but all of that to say

1546
01:33:04,663 --> 01:33:06,283
A to B

1547
01:33:06,283 --> 01:33:08,903
that Shadrach and I think a couple of others

1548
01:33:08,903 --> 01:33:09,763
are building is

1549
01:33:09,763 --> 01:33:12,483
exactly the kind of

1550
01:33:12,483 --> 01:33:14,963
you know, cypherpunk meets

1551
01:33:14,963 --> 01:33:15,923
meets space

1552
01:33:15,923 --> 01:33:19,043
reality, like think about it

1553
01:33:19,043 --> 01:33:20,863
onion routed physical

1554
01:33:20,863 --> 01:33:22,903
male, how cool is

1555
01:33:22,903 --> 01:33:23,263
that?

1556
01:33:24,863 --> 01:33:25,823
Yeah, absolutely

1557
01:33:25,823 --> 01:33:28,683
and you know, these are the projects

1558
01:33:28,683 --> 01:33:30,783
where I wish I wouldn't

1559
01:33:30,783 --> 01:33:32,843
work on the money but could

1560
01:33:32,843 --> 01:33:34,043
work on other stuff

1561
01:33:34,043 --> 01:33:36,963
because there's so many cool projects like that

1562
01:33:36,963 --> 01:33:38,243
that really need to be built

1563
01:33:38,243 --> 01:33:41,303
like the problem of securely and reliably

1564
01:33:41,303 --> 01:33:42,583
delivering

1565
01:33:42,583 --> 01:33:45,023
a package from A to B

1566
01:33:44,895 --> 01:33:51,995
securely privately is hard it's a really really hard problem but you know humans have been doing

1567
01:33:51,995 --> 01:33:59,255
this since forever and the postal service has been a decentralized natural emergence since forever

1568
01:33:59,255 --> 01:34:08,455
and now with modern day tooling and tamper evidence and incentive systems and smart contracts etc

1569
01:34:08,455 --> 01:34:21,455
If someone really sits down and goes through this problem structurally and builds an architecture for a system and an app that implements that, it should be doable nowadays.

1570
01:34:22,335 --> 01:34:29,315
And having a reliable, secure transportation medium for goods and persons is great.

1571
01:34:29,675 --> 01:34:31,175
We very much need that.

1572
01:34:31,175 --> 01:34:38,755
yeah i mean there is no reason to apart from the security of the of the transfer itself

1573
01:34:38,755 --> 01:34:43,035
is there really a need for a buyer to disclose their address to the seller

1574
01:34:43,035 --> 01:34:53,275
i mean it's a transaction why expose that element of their private life to a complete stranger when

1575
01:34:53,275 --> 01:34:59,655
they don't have to yeah i mean if like if if you're buying a bed and it needs to be installed

1576
01:34:59,655 --> 01:35:03,695
then sure, you probably have to invite that entrepreneur into your bedroom.

1577
01:35:04,515 --> 01:35:11,835
But if it's not that, then you can just get the product delivered a bit outside of where you are.

1578
01:35:11,955 --> 01:35:16,135
And next time you're walking out in the park, you make a stop and pick up the package.

1579
01:35:16,655 --> 01:35:23,455
There's no need for the merchant or that shipping provider to know where exactly you sleep.

1580
01:35:23,455 --> 01:35:28,555
and the fact that so many merchants know where we sleep

1581
01:35:28,555 --> 01:35:30,095
is just weird.

1582
01:35:30,855 --> 01:35:32,975
Like, first of all, why do they care?

1583
01:35:34,035 --> 01:35:36,095
And then why do so many people tell them?

1584
01:35:36,755 --> 01:35:39,815
And I guess it's just because it's the default, right?

1585
01:35:39,875 --> 01:35:41,295
Like on Amazon, they just ask you,

1586
01:35:41,355 --> 01:35:41,935
hey, where do you live?

1587
01:35:41,995 --> 01:35:45,135
And you put it in and magic packages arrive

1588
01:35:45,135 --> 01:35:47,955
and it's easier than having to walk across the block every time.

1589
01:35:49,195 --> 01:35:52,695
Yeah, but it would be great

1590
01:35:52,695 --> 01:35:55,135
if a more secure, more private alternative

1591
01:35:55,135 --> 01:35:57,995
would be easily and affordably available.

1592
01:35:58,535 --> 01:36:00,255
And I think we can build that.

1593
01:36:02,395 --> 01:36:03,855
Oh, it is being built.

1594
01:36:04,875 --> 01:36:06,035
Shadrach is doing it.

1595
01:36:06,455 --> 01:36:07,075
He's a pioneer.

1596
01:36:08,615 --> 01:36:10,135
Max, anything we've missed?

1597
01:36:10,895 --> 01:36:13,435
Any big one, super exciting project

1598
01:36:13,435 --> 01:36:14,615
that we didn't talk about?

1599
01:36:15,695 --> 01:36:18,095
There's like about a hundred that we've missed, brother.

1600
01:36:18,095 --> 01:36:29,815
so this is so hard to to pick the right ones um which is a cool one i guess we could talk about

1601
01:36:29,815 --> 01:36:37,335
arcade uh that's that's a really fun one it's a it's a new way of sending bitcoin back and forth

1602
01:36:37,335 --> 01:36:44,035
really fast and and cheap and in a way that's extremely programmable like the most programmable

1603
01:36:44,035 --> 01:36:49,155
way of sending Bitcoin basically where you could do a bunch of smart contracts you know tools like

1604
01:36:49,155 --> 01:36:55,115
this would probably be quite interesting for for example A to B to have some financial smart

1605
01:36:55,115 --> 01:37:00,835
contract that takes a bunch of conditions to be unlocked such that people who deliver a package

1606
01:37:00,835 --> 01:37:07,415
cannot run away with the money or at least get a financial punishment if they do and

1607
01:37:07,415 --> 01:37:13,035
And yeah, so this is the original Arcade or Arc paper

1608
01:37:13,035 --> 01:37:17,275
was actually inspired by the Wabi Sabi coin join engine.

1609
01:37:18,715 --> 01:37:24,935
And basically the realization is that with some tweaks to the script,

1610
01:37:25,095 --> 01:37:27,215
like the spending condition that we're using on the blockchain,

1611
01:37:27,975 --> 01:37:32,335
we can have basically a coin join where you can enter

1612
01:37:32,335 --> 01:37:35,575
and then you can transact off chain, so to say.

1613
01:37:35,575 --> 01:37:38,895
and then just at a later point in time leave this pool.

1614
01:37:39,615 --> 01:37:53,305
And this has not just great privacy potential but also great scalability potential Because not everyone needs to verify every transaction that you making Just some service provider needs to do that

1615
01:37:53,545 --> 01:37:55,625
And that has quite good potential.

1616
01:37:56,185 --> 01:37:59,465
So the people working on these projects are quite solid

1617
01:37:59,465 --> 01:38:01,825
and they have a cool roadmap

1618
01:38:01,825 --> 01:38:06,465
for delivering a nice product with good privacy.

1619
01:38:07,385 --> 01:38:09,525
And so this would, for example,

1620
01:38:09,525 --> 01:38:12,985
make it much easier to receive payments on Noster while you're offline.

1621
01:38:13,625 --> 01:38:18,285
And you could receive self-custodially money while your phone is offline

1622
01:38:18,285 --> 01:38:21,685
and you only have the private key on the phone and nothing else.

1623
01:38:22,325 --> 01:38:24,765
And so these types of use cases can be done.

1624
01:38:25,445 --> 01:38:29,345
It could behave a little bit like eCash, also in the user experience,

1625
01:38:29,605 --> 01:38:35,025
but it does have that big benefit of even if everyone else is malicious

1626
01:38:35,025 --> 01:38:37,785
and tries to steal your money, they can't.

1627
01:38:37,785 --> 01:38:40,145
and you can still always get your money back.

1628
01:38:40,345 --> 01:38:41,805
It might take you some time

1629
01:38:41,805 --> 01:38:43,165
and it might cost you some money,

1630
01:38:43,625 --> 01:38:44,965
but you will get your money back.

1631
01:38:45,585 --> 01:38:47,965
And that is a really reassuring guarantee,

1632
01:38:48,245 --> 01:38:51,845
not only for the users and the developers

1633
01:38:51,845 --> 01:38:53,585
on a technical level,

1634
01:38:53,765 --> 01:38:55,245
but also on a legal level.

1635
01:38:55,465 --> 01:38:57,345
Like you wouldn't want to be operating a service

1636
01:38:57,345 --> 01:39:00,265
where you can easily take away the money of the users.

1637
01:39:00,685 --> 01:39:03,065
That just opens you up to a pain of trouble in the future.

1638
01:39:03,925 --> 01:39:06,705
So it's not strictly self-custodial.

1639
01:39:06,705 --> 01:39:11,065
It doesn't fit the very narrow and tight definition of self-custody.

1640
01:39:11,605 --> 01:39:14,705
But for all intents and purposes, it is, right?

1641
01:39:14,745 --> 01:39:20,005
It's because of the synthetic nature of eventually being able to recover your funds

1642
01:39:20,005 --> 01:39:24,265
and no one else being able to access them or take them away.

1643
01:39:24,425 --> 01:39:31,065
Yeah, it's quite similar as Lightning in some aspects of you're no longer alone, right?

1644
01:39:31,065 --> 01:39:36,105
You have control over UTXO where other people have a spending condition as well.

1645
01:39:36,705 --> 01:39:39,605
So this means you will have to collaborate.

1646
01:39:40,005 --> 01:39:45,605
And if you do collaborate with an honest peer, everything will go super fast and super smooth.

1647
01:39:46,485 --> 01:39:53,205
But if any one of you tries to steal or do some shenanigans, then you can prove that.

1648
01:39:53,785 --> 01:40:00,045
And there is some remedy where either you actually steal all of the money that the attacker has.

1649
01:40:00,045 --> 01:40:07,005
that's kind of lightning, or you just gradually prove who exactly owns how much in this ARK second

1650
01:40:07,005 --> 01:40:14,785
layer. So yes, slightly different, but ultimately, even if you're all by yourself and you just have

1651
01:40:14,785 --> 01:40:20,965
your private key and a computer and internet connection, then you can still get your money out.

1652
01:40:21,205 --> 01:40:27,025
Even if that counterparty that you opened the channel with or the ARK service provider,

1653
01:40:27,025 --> 01:40:29,565
even if those counterparties become malicious,

1654
01:40:30,905 --> 01:40:33,605
you're still secure, minus fees.

1655
01:40:36,465 --> 01:40:38,825
I feel like, Max, for ARK,

1656
01:40:38,925 --> 01:40:40,845
it needs a whole show just for itself,

1657
01:40:41,025 --> 01:40:42,105
probably a two-hour show,

1658
01:40:42,485 --> 01:40:46,665
just to break everything down and understand it.

1659
01:40:46,765 --> 01:40:50,025
Because, I mean, you didn't even mention VTXOs.

1660
01:40:50,825 --> 01:40:55,765
There's a whole rabbit hole there with our arcade, I should say.

1661
01:40:57,025 --> 01:41:00,145
Well, so, all right, Max, I think, you know,

1662
01:41:00,185 --> 01:41:02,105
we're in the hour and 40 minute mark.

1663
01:41:03,565 --> 01:41:06,125
Probably could go on for another two hours and 40 minutes

1664
01:41:06,125 --> 01:41:09,445
on some of these topics, but I know it's getting late for you.

1665
01:41:11,845 --> 01:41:16,125
So anything, any final thoughts before we wrap up?

1666
01:41:18,745 --> 01:41:21,265
Yeah, I think it's sometimes cool to reflect

1667
01:41:21,265 --> 01:41:23,825
and just see how far the cypherpunks have come.

1668
01:41:24,345 --> 01:41:26,445
If you read the early mailing list posts,

1669
01:41:27,025 --> 01:41:34,045
you know the the the ideas that they had you know they were quite big and impressive for the time but

1670
01:41:34,045 --> 01:41:41,725
if you now look back at it they so underestimated of how far we could take these ideas and especially

1671
01:41:41,725 --> 01:41:54,155
now with with bitcoin and nostr taking this into hyperdrive like the tools that we can build is just astonishing And that means you as an end user

1672
01:41:54,155 --> 01:41:56,875
are living in the best time ever

1673
01:41:56,875 --> 01:41:59,495
when it comes to having secure, reliable tools

1674
01:41:59,495 --> 01:42:01,735
of protection and defense and privacy.

1675
01:42:02,255 --> 01:42:05,615
You can really live a very, very secure life

1676
01:42:05,615 --> 01:42:07,995
if you want to go down that rabbit hole.

1677
01:42:09,375 --> 01:42:10,295
And on the other hand,

1678
01:42:10,295 --> 01:42:16,155
building these technologies has never been more fun and more rewarding,

1679
01:42:16,755 --> 01:42:18,915
not just socially, but also financially,

1680
01:42:19,615 --> 01:42:21,975
considering the massive success of Bitcoin

1681
01:42:21,975 --> 01:42:25,595
and what that enabled in second and third order effects.

1682
01:42:26,595 --> 01:42:32,335
So when you are convinced that freedom is better than slavery

1683
01:42:32,335 --> 01:42:37,795
and that technologies are essential in establishing

1684
01:42:37,795 --> 01:42:40,335
whether you are in freedom or you are in slavery.

1685
01:42:41,535 --> 01:42:44,635
And you want to have fun hanging out with plebs

1686
01:42:44,635 --> 01:42:46,555
and building the future?

1687
01:42:46,995 --> 01:42:48,955
Then join us building Freedom Tech.

1688
01:42:50,795 --> 01:42:54,255
The importance of the project is so obvious

1689
01:42:54,255 --> 01:43:00,135
and the number of people working on it

1690
01:43:00,135 --> 01:43:02,255
is also so obviously not big enough.

1691
01:43:02,915 --> 01:43:05,915
So we're not getting bored here.

1692
01:43:06,015 --> 01:43:07,215
The problems are amazing.

1693
01:43:07,215 --> 01:43:14,675
the people are amazing you can you can make a good living with just helping people liberate

1694
01:43:14,675 --> 01:43:19,915
themselves and that's spiritually rewarding as well so very much consider to just pick up the

1695
01:43:19,915 --> 01:43:27,295
shovel and and start building and you know build the tools that you want to see like the apps that

1696
01:43:27,295 --> 01:43:32,255
you use whatever they are find out how you can make them better and find out who's building on

1697
01:43:32,255 --> 01:43:38,315
them and and and help them out right be be useful in whatever shape you can and that's different for

1698
01:43:38,315 --> 01:43:44,435
everyone but that's a that's a good step you know go through your apps go through the the list of

1699
01:43:44,435 --> 01:43:50,435
apps and see which applications are super important to you and and without them you would have a less

1700
01:43:50,435 --> 01:43:57,675
free life and then you know make it better and you don't even have to bug the developers necessarily

1701
01:43:57,675 --> 01:43:58,855
because they're busy too.

1702
01:43:59,335 --> 01:44:00,655
You can just tell people,

1703
01:44:00,815 --> 01:44:04,455
be part of the decentralized underground marketing army

1704
01:44:04,455 --> 01:44:08,975
that does user support and education and onboarding.

1705
01:44:09,715 --> 01:44:13,375
And if you find out that five of your friends

1706
01:44:13,375 --> 01:44:14,915
have this one common problem,

1707
01:44:15,555 --> 01:44:17,435
then maybe tell the developers that,

1708
01:44:17,555 --> 01:44:18,955
hey, I've done some user research

1709
01:44:18,955 --> 01:44:21,735
and this is a problem that many people stumble upon

1710
01:44:21,735 --> 01:44:23,015
and I thought about it

1711
01:44:23,015 --> 01:44:25,235
and maybe this is a good solution on how to improve it.

1712
01:44:25,515 --> 01:44:26,195
What do you think?

1713
01:44:26,195 --> 01:44:27,975
these types of

1714
01:44:27,975 --> 01:44:30,055
feedbacks and support

1715
01:44:30,055 --> 01:44:32,335
is really really helpful

1716
01:44:32,335 --> 01:44:34,535
when you're deep down the rabbit hole of actually

1717
01:44:34,535 --> 01:44:36,295
building it you often don't see

1718
01:44:36,295 --> 01:44:38,475
the way that a fresh user sees

1719
01:44:38,475 --> 01:44:40,395
the app and so that's

1720
01:44:40,395 --> 01:44:42,395
one of the many easy services

1721
01:44:42,395 --> 01:44:43,735
that anyone can provide

1722
01:44:43,735 --> 01:44:46,255
so there really isn't any excuse

1723
01:44:46,255 --> 01:44:48,455
hell you know if Avi can start

1724
01:44:48,455 --> 01:44:49,995
a podcast and

1725
01:44:49,995 --> 01:44:52,635
sing us a gospel

1726
01:44:52,635 --> 01:44:54,135
every week

1727
01:44:54,135 --> 01:44:56,695
then you can do something as well.

1728
01:44:58,935 --> 01:45:03,215
It is good to reflect, Max,

1729
01:45:03,435 --> 01:45:05,915
because sometimes it's easy to get caught up

1730
01:45:05,915 --> 01:45:08,975
in the here and now and say,

1731
01:45:09,055 --> 01:45:10,595
oh, Nostra is in a bear market.

1732
01:45:12,275 --> 01:45:14,095
Everyone's talking about paper Bitcoin.

1733
01:45:14,275 --> 01:45:15,935
They're arguing about call versus not.

1734
01:45:16,395 --> 01:45:18,035
The conversation's gone down the toilet.

1735
01:45:18,335 --> 01:45:22,875
But look at where we were in December of 2022.

1736
01:45:22,875 --> 01:45:26,015
right around the time most of us,

1737
01:45:26,195 --> 01:45:27,915
maybe you might have been there earlier, Max,

1738
01:45:27,975 --> 01:45:31,335
but a lot of us came in that wave of December 2022

1739
01:45:31,335 --> 01:45:35,095
where we could barely get threads to work, right?

1740
01:45:35,715 --> 01:45:36,875
You reply to someone,

1741
01:45:36,995 --> 01:45:38,355
it wouldn't show up in the right thread.

1742
01:45:39,315 --> 01:45:41,255
And now here we are complaining

1743
01:45:41,255 --> 01:45:53,145
that music curation tools are not up to scratch right We come a long way Yeah Yeah And then extrapolate that out

1744
01:45:53,345 --> 01:45:55,105
Think where we could be in five years

1745
01:45:55,105 --> 01:45:57,425
if we all do as much as possible

1746
01:45:57,425 --> 01:45:59,885
to build amazing things.

1747
01:46:00,625 --> 01:46:04,345
Like, that's like a goosebump thing

1748
01:46:04,345 --> 01:46:05,625
to meditate on for a while.

1749
01:46:06,905 --> 01:46:07,425
Yeah.

1750
01:46:07,945 --> 01:46:09,585
But I think the important thing is

1751
01:46:09,585 --> 01:46:12,665
there is a risk, right,

1752
01:46:12,665 --> 01:46:17,185
that with this whole paper Bitcoin business

1753
01:46:17,185 --> 01:46:21,505
and people are getting complacent.

1754
01:46:22,345 --> 01:46:26,625
And I think enough people need to realize

1755
01:46:26,625 --> 01:46:28,005
that there's so much fun

1756
01:46:28,005 --> 01:46:31,625
in building these cool new freedom tech things.

1757
01:46:31,985 --> 01:46:33,085
Paper Bitcoin isn't fun.

1758
01:46:33,245 --> 01:46:33,865
What are you doing?

1759
01:46:34,145 --> 01:46:36,565
You're sitting on some synthetic contract

1760
01:46:36,565 --> 01:46:40,145
hoping the president says the right thing

1761
01:46:40,145 --> 01:46:41,965
so that your fiat value goes up.

1762
01:46:41,965 --> 01:46:44,505
instead you could join us

1763
01:46:44,505 --> 01:46:46,305
and build something really cool

1764
01:46:46,305 --> 01:46:47,565
that makes the world a better place

1765
01:46:47,565 --> 01:46:49,445
so

1766
01:46:49,445 --> 01:46:50,185
yeah

1767
01:46:50,185 --> 01:46:52,945
the choice is yours

1768
01:46:52,945 --> 01:46:54,965
which way, Maston men

1769
01:46:54,965 --> 01:46:58,365
indeed

1770
01:46:58,365 --> 01:47:00,125
well Max, appreciate you coming

1771
01:47:00,125 --> 01:47:01,465
back to the show

1772
01:47:01,465 --> 01:47:03,865
always love these conversations with you

1773
01:47:03,865 --> 01:47:05,985
and I'm sure we'll

1774
01:47:05,985 --> 01:47:07,945
have you back soon

1775
01:47:07,945 --> 01:47:10,145
are you going to be at Bitfest by any chance?

1776
01:47:10,145 --> 01:47:12,185
in Manchester?

1777
01:47:13,185 --> 01:47:14,765
No, unfortunately not.

1778
01:47:15,565 --> 01:47:18,925
I thought that there would just be too much sun in Manchester.

1779
01:47:19,165 --> 01:47:21,685
I would get sunburned, so better not.

1780
01:47:24,505 --> 01:47:26,305
There is a whole Nostraday.

1781
01:47:26,385 --> 01:47:27,425
They're calling it Nostraday.

1782
01:47:28,265 --> 01:47:29,265
Yes, that's great.

1783
01:47:29,925 --> 01:47:30,845
It promises to be fun.

1784
01:47:30,925 --> 01:47:33,125
All right, well, I'm sure I will see you at some point.

1785
01:47:33,625 --> 01:47:35,405
Our paths always end up crossing

1786
01:47:35,405 --> 01:47:38,025
at some remote point on this planet

1787
01:47:38,025 --> 01:47:39,605
multiple times a year.

1788
01:47:39,605 --> 01:47:42,365
Always somewhere else, but always in good spirit.

1789
01:47:43,205 --> 01:47:47,825
And I must say, I really enjoyed the audio-only recording session.

1790
01:47:48,325 --> 01:47:53,665
It's much more comfy and familiar to talk with,

1791
01:47:54,325 --> 01:47:57,745
and you get some more food for thought for the imagination.

1792
01:47:58,205 --> 01:48:03,045
I'm imagining you sitting by the fire with a cigar and a good red wine.

1793
01:48:05,385 --> 01:48:06,305
It's very nice.

1794
01:48:06,485 --> 01:48:08,045
Very good to chat with you again, my friend.

1795
01:48:08,045 --> 01:48:10,185
absolutely Max

1796
01:48:10,185 --> 01:48:12,165
thank you again

1797
01:48:12,165 --> 01:48:13,665
my best to Elena

1798
01:48:13,665 --> 01:48:15,565
and folks

1799
01:48:15,565 --> 01:48:18,705
if you are listening I hope you listened

1800
01:48:18,705 --> 01:48:21,025
on the Fountain podcasting app

1801
01:48:21,025 --> 01:48:22,285
if not

1802
01:48:22,285 --> 01:48:23,805
it's too late for this show

1803
01:48:23,805 --> 01:48:25,305
you could do it again

1804
01:48:25,305 --> 01:48:26,745
the next show

1805
01:48:26,745 --> 01:48:30,065
when you are on Fountain

1806
01:48:30,065 --> 01:48:33,105
we would appreciate it if you hit that subscribe button

1807
01:48:33,105 --> 01:48:34,905
your stats and your support

1808
01:48:34,905 --> 01:48:36,885
goes a long way in keeping

1809
01:48:36,885 --> 01:48:45,665
our mics warm and this podcast ad free until next week and also yes don't forget

1810
01:48:45,665 --> 01:48:52,805
to to check out finding home because that is a lovely show i really enjoyed the proc edition

1811
01:48:52,805 --> 01:48:59,825
actually that's yes and uh well thank you for that max uh do check out finding home

1812
01:48:59,825 --> 01:49:05,945
the paraguay episode should be coming out in about a month or so um i think there might be

1813
01:49:05,945 --> 01:49:08,025
a few seconds of you in a frame

1814
01:49:08,025 --> 01:49:09,825
in that episode, Max.

1815
01:49:09,825 --> 01:49:11,885
That was quite a

1816
01:49:11,885 --> 01:49:13,885
funny backstory of me with

1817
01:49:13,885 --> 01:49:15,665
some friends walking into a restaurant

1818
01:49:15,665 --> 01:49:17,785
and all of a sudden there's

1819
01:49:17,785 --> 01:49:19,665
Avi literally shooting

1820
01:49:19,665 --> 01:49:21,685
for the

1821
01:49:21,685 --> 01:49:23,065
movie with

1822
01:49:23,065 --> 01:49:25,845
Jan. So that was a

1823
01:49:25,845 --> 01:49:27,865
small world's moment. And I think

1824
01:49:27,865 --> 01:49:30,065
it was the first time I saw you while I was in Paraguay

1825
01:49:30,065 --> 01:49:31,245
there. So it was a perfect surprise.

1826
01:49:31,945 --> 01:49:33,725
Yeah, and you said, come on and join us. And I had to

1827
01:49:33,725 --> 01:49:36,325
pointed to the camera and I said we're in the middle of a shoot.

1828
01:49:37,065 --> 01:49:37,925
Yeah, that was funny.

1829
01:49:40,525 --> 01:49:40,885
Excellent.

1830
01:49:41,545 --> 01:49:43,465
Well, thank you, Max, and thank you, folks.

1831
01:49:44,705 --> 01:49:44,945
Goodbye.

1832
01:49:44,945 --> 01:49:45,945
Have a good one. Bye-bye.