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The signal is here.

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This is Blood Channel Radio.

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Welcome, gentle pioneers, to the lightning-laced airwaves.

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This is episode 149 of Plep Chain Radio, and we have a fun one in store for you today.

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Goodbye, Uber and Lyft.

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My guest today is Sterling Forge, and he's going to talk about Rydster and Drivestir,

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and perhaps more.

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If you are hearing my voice right now

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on Spotify or Apple,

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thank you for being here.

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But understand this.

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You are tuned into the legacy feed.

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It works, but it's a monologue.

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It's a one-way street.

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Over here on Fountain and Noster,

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we're building two-way radio.

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This is a Valley for Valley broadcast.

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There are no corporate ads here

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because the producers of the show, that's you, keep the frequency clear.

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If you're ready to upgrade your experience, earn sats while you listen,

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and actually have a say in the direction of the show,

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then come join the Real Signal over here on the V4V side.

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Now let's set the stage for the final word.

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The role of executive producer for next week is currently up for grabs.

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As always, the top booster earns that title and the exclusive right to close out the show.

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But remember, this segment works best when there's friction.

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I'm not looking for an echo chamber.

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I'm looking for a peer review.

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In a moment, I'm going to get into the sermon.

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If I strike a nerve, or if you think I missed the mark entirely, use the boost to correct the record.

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This is your chance to direct the show, not just support it

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The final word is yours to take, provided you're willing to back up your argument

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And now let's get to the sermon

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It's the calculus of resilience

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I want to talk about math

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I don't mean elliptic curve cryptography

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I'm talking about the kitchen table math

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the specific terrifying calculus of the man who walked away from the fiat cage.

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I am one such man.

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And there are a lot of us out there right now.

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I've spoken to many others myself.

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You know who you are.

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Six months ago, maybe a year ago,

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you looked at your stack, you looked at your soul, and you made a trade.

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You handed in the badge.

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You walked out of the corporate glass tower.

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You bought your freedom with the sats you scraped together by working inside the very system that was inexorably consuming your soul.

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And when you did it, you had a spreadsheet.

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You had a runway.

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You said, I have enough for a year, maybe two.

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Enough to build the future.

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But then you looked at the charts in the last couple of weeks and you watched the red candles fall like rain.

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and suddenly that runway, it looks a lot shorter than it did in October.

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The silence in the room gets loud.

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The doubt creeps in.

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The voice in the back of your head,

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the one that sounds like a disappointed parent

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or even your old boss starts whispering.

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You were reckless.

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You were too early.

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You should have played it safe and kept your job.

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At least you had health insurance.

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It is a specific kind of nausea, watching the battery that powers your life drain faster than you can recharge it.

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It tests you in a way that hodling never could when you had a paycheck hitting every two weeks.

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When the stack is all you have, the volatility isn't just a line on a screen, it's the walls closing in.

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but listen to me this pain this tightening in your chest this is the price of admission

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conviction is cheap when number go up everyone is a revolutionary during a bull market but right now

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this is the fire this is the fire where your resilience is forged this is where the tourists

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go home and the builders dig in. You didn't quit your job to get rich in fiat terms. You quit your

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job because you realized that time is the only scarce asset you actually own. If the market price

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is wrong today, it is simply an opportunity for the truth to catch up tomorrow. We're not here

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because it's easy. We're here because the alternative is to go back to sleep. And we are awake.

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So let the price drop, let the paper hands fold

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We're in the bunker for a reason

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Check your runway, tighten your belt and get back to work

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We're building the raft while the rest of the world drowns

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Hold the line

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And with that, it's time to bring on our guest, Sterling Forge

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Welcome to Plep Chain Radio

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Heck yeah, what an intro, man

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yeah man it's uh you know i'm in that boat it's real it's very real uh but uh this is not the time

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to walk away i will this is this is the time that separates the real ones uh from the taurus right

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absolutely i've been living off bitcoin for a long time but it's it's times like these they

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give me back to work driving Uber and Lyft and things like that.

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And that's kind of why I'm here today in a roundabout way.

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Speaking of Uber and Lyft, you know, I saw a post from you, Sterling.

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I'm looking forward to actually getting to know your story a little more.

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I saw a post from you a week or two ago where you were talking about

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Rightster and Drivestar, these Uber and Lyft alternatives.

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I think you made a 10-minute video.

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I'll actually link that in the show notes so folks who haven't seen it, you should watch that.

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But what's the story, man?

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What brought you to Noster and to say, you know what?

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I'm building these things.

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Let's build a replacement for Uber and Lyft.

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Well, I've been around Noster for a while now.

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So I don't know, three or four years.

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I'm not sure when it really started kicking off, but I kind of joined all the Bitcoin people in the exodus from Twitter at the beginning there.

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And I have been in Bitcoin for a lot longer, probably really started stacking Bitcoin around 2019.

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but around Noster

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I've wanted to build

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the Uber and Lyft

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sort of idea into Noster

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for a while now

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almost a year I've been

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kind of like

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hacking at that

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a little bit in and out

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but I don't have the skills

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as a developer

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so it's

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it's actually

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just being here

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at the right time and place

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where you don't need

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as many development skills

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to build things

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and you talked about going back uh to thinking about going back to uber and lyft

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is that were you ever an uber and lyft or lyft driver yeah so i used to be a weather forecaster

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for 10 years and i was doing that for air force and airport bases or air force bases and airports

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and um so i would you know make forecasts and brief the weather to pilots and commanders and

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stuff like that um and that was my job for 10 years but i started doing uber on the side around

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2020 and 2019 maybe like late 2019 and back then it was awesome i used to just do it part-time

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after I got off of work on like a night shift or something, I would just start Ubering. And it was

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very good money back in the day. I remember you used to make like 70% of the fare, sometimes even

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80% of the fare back then. And it was actually a decent living on top of my day job. I could

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put in a few hours and then all of my Uber and Lyft money went into Bitcoin directly.

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So I would just put it straight into Bitcoin, deposit it to Strike, and put it straight into Bitcoin as soon as possible.

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Nice. So what happened with Uber and Lyft payouts?

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I mean, people here have a – people listening probably have a vague sense of how this works, right, that you're a contractor with these companies and they take a percentage off the top.

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and as you said it started off well but you know you hear stories of the predatory nature of these

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things and drivers have overworking themselves because they're not able to make enough money and

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and all of that so what what exactly happened there did you face that where you you found the

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payouts to be dwindling over time yeah it was actually kind of a surprise so I lost my weather

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job in 2021 because um i didn't want to take the vaccine actually that was the reason why i got

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fired and um and it was like you know you're working for the the government and in a roundabout

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sense as a weather forecaster and they were like okay anyone who doesn't take this like you're

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gonna get cut so um it it kind of sucked but i in 2021 i lost that job and then i came back i i was

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originally like okay well i've got tons of bitcoin that i've been stacking from doing this on the side

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and um stacking regularly so for three years i just didn't work and then you know as the bitcoin

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stack starts dwindling you usually get like get on edge and you're like okay i'm gonna have to go

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back to work eventually so i came back to uber and lyft here around uh like early 2024 and um

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when i did that it was like a completely different landscape um where i used to be able to make you

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know with a nice car and um really good service you used to be able to make somewhere between 40

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to 70 an hour after tips and uh that was like close to 70 of the fare at the time and when i

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came back it was 30 of the fare that you're making so you would ask people like hey do you

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mind sharing how much you paid for this ride and they would say oh yeah i paid 21 bucks and you

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would look at your fare the the actual amount you're making you're making six dollars and 77

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cents so i was like oh my god you know that's uh that's a huge difference you know you're not making

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anything compared to what people are paying but you're taking on all the risk you're taking on

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the risk to your car you're taking on the maintenance costs you're taking on um all the

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risks of having a business and you haven't even paid taxes before that 30 is taken into account so

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um it was a big difference to what i saw back in 2020 and 2021 and you know it could be because

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there's more drivers out here the economy is not as nice as it was so a lot of a lot more drivers

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are out there so maybe that pushes the the the options up for uber and lyft and the the wage down

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for the people who are driving so that could be one of the things but um there's also excess

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regulation in it so uber and lyft when they do a fair breakdown they say that you know 20 of your

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ride is going to government and insurance fees that are required for them to pay but i feel like

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that was the case before they were taking 70 or before they were taking a 70% of the ride.

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I felt like they still had those regulations. So, um, I will say that Uber and Lyft both became

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profitable companies around the same time that the fare started being taken a lot more, which is

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good for them. Uh, I can't blame them for wanting to be profitable,

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but, uh, it does feel a little unfair as the person putting your car online.

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And in an ideal world right so clearly the 30 from what you saying the 30 that they were taking originally and giving 70 to the driver was not a profitable business model So they had to find some kind of sweet spot Yeah I think they were heavily subsidizing their growth at that time And in a perfect world what would happen is they would

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push it down so much that the drivers would be like, what the hell? And the drivers would drop

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like flies. And then Uber and Lyft would then have to adjust back to a higher cut for the drivers,

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maybe push something, increase the prices on the consumers. You know, there's a balance between all

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of those those three things but uh it sounds like for what you're saying that that model isn't

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working meaning it's not actually a sustainable model where the platform can make enough money

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to be profitable the drivers aren't driven into the ground uh because they it's they get so little

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um and and then the customers aren't charged exorbitant numbers because it's there is obviously

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a number at which someone's not going to pay um yeah as a customer right so i don't know is the

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model actually working i think that it's it's sustainable in the the world that we live in right

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now because there's no escape hatch and i want to build the escape hatch that makes that unsustainable

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and makes it much more beneficial for the driver and the rider.

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So in the current model, it is sustainable.

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They're basing all their pricing off of their own analytics.

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And as the economy gets worse, more people turn to Uber and Lyft

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as the fallback for their having a job at all.

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Because it's better to have a job driving Uber,

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even if they're paying 30%, than not having a job at all

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and not being able to pay your bills.

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So in the economic downturn that is like global inflation and everything else, it is sustainable because people are going to do it even if they can't make a really nice living.

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They'll try to make any living at all.

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And it is a very convenient fallback.

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But I think it can be better.

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And I think that the profitability of some public companies, it shouldn't cost quite as much as it is costing the people who are building those companies from the ground up, the drivers and the riders.

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And I think that building an open source driving app that doesn't require any infrastructure kind of proves that.

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it doesn't require back-end servers

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or it doesn't require companies to interfere.

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But go ahead.

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No, and we'll get to drive-strand,

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right-strand in a second, Sterling.

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But I'm finding the economics of this fascinating

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because you were talking about

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what happens during economic downturn

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from the driver's standpoint,

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where they do have a fallback option.

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However little money there is,

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it's you know it's it's still something but the economic downturn should also impact the consumers

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themselves right so they might not have as much money to yes pay so how i mean how does that

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balance out i will say you know i i don't have a view of the whole market either so um i live in

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Las Vegas. And in Las Vegas, it's very unique because people come to this town as travelers.

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And at any one point in time, one third of Las Vegas, over a million people at a time,

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are travelers. And so it's a very popular town for rideshare. So I think, you know,

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this 70% take might not be happening everywhere. I have a very specific perspective on it because

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I'm seeing it here. And I think that the consumers that are traveling, maybe Uber and Lyft's

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algorithms are able to recognize that they're more beholden to rideshare anyways. And so they're

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willing to pay more. So in other markets, it may be, you know, they're only taking 50%.

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percent and um but i know that the goal of of uber and lyft both is to charge the rider as much as

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they will pay and to uh pay the driver as little as they can pay so yes and and that's kind of the

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economics of it is it it might vary in market to market but in in las vegas it comes out to about

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70 they're taking and that's my um my firsthand perspective on it yeah this it is also interesting

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with this market,

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it's kind of hyper-localized, right?

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Each locality has its specifics.

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One thing I noticed in New York City,

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I don't live there anymore,

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but I don't live too far away.

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Every time I go back,

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especially in the last couple of years,

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you're talking about an escape hatch.

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00:18:56,376 --> 00:18:57,156
I mean, in some sense,

224
00:18:57,316 --> 00:18:57,916
there is a,

225
00:18:58,596 --> 00:19:03,596
well, it's not an escape hatch

226
00:19:03,596 --> 00:19:06,116
that's free from any ills, right?

227
00:19:06,136 --> 00:19:07,516
But you do have the yellow taxis,

228
00:19:07,516 --> 00:19:08,376
the yellow cabs.

229
00:19:08,396 --> 00:19:12,976
in New York. And those medallions have their own set of issues there. But there is an option.

230
00:19:13,956 --> 00:19:19,776
And I've noticed that the yellow cabs are 10 to 20% cheaper than Uber and Lyft.

231
00:19:21,216 --> 00:19:28,176
Yeah, I think that Uber and Lyft really know that they have the market kind of cornered and

232
00:19:28,176 --> 00:19:33,536
they're able to extract a little bit more these last few years than they could before.

233
00:19:33,536 --> 00:19:39,976
um the thing is is it's still there's still a lot of inconveniences to taking a taxi

234
00:19:39,976 --> 00:19:47,276
uh the main thing not knowing the fare ahead of time um i know that they they have some apps

235
00:19:47,276 --> 00:19:52,896
themselves to book taxis but i haven't ever used them i don't know anyone who's used them either

236
00:19:52,896 --> 00:20:02,896
personally um but yeah but knowing the fare ahead of time is a stress relief thing you know if if i

237
00:20:02,896 --> 00:20:10,056
I'm almost more inclined to take a uh an uber and lyft every time even if it is 10 or 20 percent

238
00:20:10,056 --> 00:20:14,156
more because I can compare the two and see which was which one is the cheaper one ahead of time and

239
00:20:14,156 --> 00:20:20,516
just know what I'm gonna pay with a taxi it's kind of like gambling you could get a driver that just

240
00:20:20,516 --> 00:20:25,416
lets the clock run and and uh you would just watch it go up in the back seat stressing out

241
00:20:25,416 --> 00:20:33,096
that reminds me of uh there's the woody allen joke from the movie manhattan

242
00:20:33,096 --> 00:20:40,076
where he's in the car with uh with his girlfriend i think might have been diane keaton actually

243
00:20:40,076 --> 00:20:47,336
uh and and he said or actually i can't remember who it was but the actress was but but he says

244
00:20:47,336 --> 00:20:51,196
uh you look so pretty tonight i can barely keep my eyes on the meter

245
00:20:51,196 --> 00:21:01,416
so let's talk about drivester and ridester right the escape hatch that you're building and maybe

246
00:21:01,416 --> 00:21:05,316
start at the beginning because i know you mentioned one of them is a protocol one of them is the app

247
00:21:05,316 --> 00:21:13,016
so it'll be helpful to unpack that yeah so there's actually two apps um so i i've built just like

248
00:21:13,016 --> 00:21:20,216
uber and lyft have they have a driver app and a rider app um for each of their platforms and

249
00:21:20,216 --> 00:21:21,696
I've built

250
00:21:21,696 --> 00:21:23,516
Ridester is kind of the protocol

251
00:21:23,516 --> 00:21:26,216
name but there is a

252
00:21:26,216 --> 00:21:27,956
Ridester app and there is a Drivestor app

253
00:21:27,956 --> 00:21:30,356
the Ridester protocol

254
00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:32,176
is basically using

255
00:21:32,176 --> 00:21:34,076
Noster as a communication

256
00:21:34,076 --> 00:21:35,216
layer between the peers

257
00:21:35,216 --> 00:21:36,936
it's using

258
00:21:36,936 --> 00:21:39,716
a local routing

259
00:21:39,716 --> 00:21:41,976
that runs on your phone to calculate

260
00:21:41,976 --> 00:21:44,056
the fares and

261
00:21:44,056 --> 00:21:45,976
it's using Bitcoin

262
00:21:45,976 --> 00:21:48,136
as the default payment

263
00:21:48,136 --> 00:21:50,176
method but not

264
00:21:50,216 --> 00:21:52,216
necessarily the only payment method.

265
00:21:56,616 --> 00:21:57,356
Got it.

266
00:21:57,936 --> 00:21:58,876
So walk through,

267
00:21:59,396 --> 00:22:01,036
so when this app is built out,

268
00:22:01,156 --> 00:22:03,536
and it sounds like it's pretty close,

269
00:22:03,796 --> 00:22:04,316
right Sterling?

270
00:22:04,536 --> 00:22:06,036
Or is it actually out?

271
00:22:07,056 --> 00:22:09,176
There is a version of it out right now,

272
00:22:09,256 --> 00:22:11,476
which is exactly,

273
00:22:11,636 --> 00:22:13,216
almost exactly what I showed off

274
00:22:13,216 --> 00:22:14,316
on the very first video.

275
00:22:14,876 --> 00:22:16,216
And there is a version

276
00:22:16,216 --> 00:22:21,076
that I will be updating it to very soon

277
00:22:21,076 --> 00:22:23,876
that makes it a lot more usable and a lot more fun.

278
00:22:26,096 --> 00:22:29,616
But the base applications are out right now.

279
00:22:29,876 --> 00:22:32,696
I would almost not recommend downloading them right now, though,

280
00:22:32,776 --> 00:22:36,856
because it's kind of useless to download a rideshare app with no network,

281
00:22:36,976 --> 00:22:39,756
and there is a solution to that we'll get into.

282
00:22:39,756 --> 00:22:47,076
so yeah but let's just talk about when when you believe it's it's uh going to be ready right

283
00:22:47,076 --> 00:22:54,376
well that might be a month or two from now um a user downloads the app on presumably on zap store

284
00:22:54,376 --> 00:23:00,776
right it's hard to see something like this that is the that is the default right now it's the it

285
00:23:00,776 --> 00:23:05,156
was the easiest store to just kind of bootstrap and it's already nostril native so it was a lot

286
00:23:05,156 --> 00:23:13,856
of fun to see your app come up on that store. But yeah, presumably right now you'd be downloading

287
00:23:13,856 --> 00:23:20,996
it on ZapStory. Okay. So I download it and I'm looking for a ride, right? So is it like,

288
00:23:20,996 --> 00:23:26,496
will it be an Uber-like interface? I see the drivers around me. I pick one.

289
00:23:27,416 --> 00:23:32,876
Just walk through that process. Yeah, absolutely. So the base open in the app,

290
00:23:32,876 --> 00:23:40,356
you're greeted by a default screen similar to uber where it's like request a ride and you have you

291
00:23:40,356 --> 00:23:45,876
know a where are you going question and you've got your address box that you can search for in

292
00:23:45,876 --> 00:23:50,856
in the top and then you search for a destination and you can check the little box if you want to

293
00:23:50,856 --> 00:23:57,616
use your your location that you're at right now um there's some favorites and recents you know so

294
00:23:57,616 --> 00:24:04,896
you can pick the places that you recently went etc you know the default uber like interface um

295
00:24:04,896 --> 00:24:12,716
the the big difference is is that i didn't really invest any time in making a map interface you know

296
00:24:12,716 --> 00:24:19,716
there's no uh showing like the full route on this on the map or anything or there's no um like

297
00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:24,556
viewing drivers nearby you on the map coming towards you or anything like that it's very

298
00:24:24,556 --> 00:24:31,316
bare bones in the fact that like once you get the address selected correctly um based on what you

299
00:24:31,316 --> 00:24:36,136
typed in so if i type in the venetian casino it might tell me it's blank las vegas boulevard

300
00:24:36,136 --> 00:24:42,696
um when i click click all that and calculate it calculates the ride it will in the background

301
00:24:42,696 --> 00:24:49,896
calculate a turn by turn route but it doesn't actually need any mapping uh data or it doesn't

302
00:24:49,896 --> 00:24:55,936
need a map itself to calculate that and it's doing it all locally so it gets a distance it gets an

303
00:24:55,936 --> 00:25:05,876
estimated time and uh by that it calculates the fare the default fare got it and and so then the

304
00:25:05,876 --> 00:25:13,176
user selects it what happens then so does the user need to be logged into nostor so yeah on the first

305
00:25:13,176 --> 00:25:20,516
app you are greeted by either creating a key or importing a key and if you import a key it brings

306
00:25:20,516 --> 00:25:25,716
back all of your favorites all of your recents um all of your driving history and you can delete

307
00:25:25,716 --> 00:25:31,976
that at any time but those are just so those are all stored encrypted in a in a nostor event so you

308
00:25:31,976 --> 00:25:37,776
kind of have this driver profile or rider profile that's uh out on nostor and and when you import

309
00:25:37,776 --> 00:25:44,256
your key it'll just come all back so it's just like uber lyft except you don't need an email

310
00:25:44,256 --> 00:25:52,096
password you just need that private key and um and it's nice in that sense that you get kind of the

311
00:25:52,096 --> 00:26:00,496
the whole um really all the all the useful features of a regular rider app and um

312
00:26:00,496 --> 00:26:06,876
a little bit more when it comes to the next big update,

313
00:26:07,236 --> 00:26:11,176
which will kind of solve the onboarding and network problem.

314
00:26:14,096 --> 00:26:15,916
Let's go through the user journey.

315
00:26:16,776 --> 00:26:18,376
User logs in with Nostra.

316
00:26:18,376 --> 00:26:20,716
They put their destination in.

317
00:26:20,976 --> 00:26:22,016
The fare gets calculated.

318
00:26:22,576 --> 00:26:23,776
They accept it.

319
00:26:24,476 --> 00:26:25,296
What happens then?

320
00:26:25,376 --> 00:26:28,376
Is an event, Nostra event created and blasted out to relays?

321
00:26:28,376 --> 00:26:38,216
Yeah, so by default, I'll be walking through this in the background, but I pull up a route and it's calculated.

322
00:26:38,536 --> 00:26:40,696
It says my fare is going to be like $14.

323
00:26:41,216 --> 00:26:42,896
I hit the request a ride button.

324
00:26:43,276 --> 00:26:50,096
And the default thing that happens now is it actually pops up with a window that says select a driver.

325
00:26:50,636 --> 00:26:55,176
And what it shows in that window is any available driver nearby you.

326
00:26:55,176 --> 00:27:08,036
And this is a sort of option that I chose in the way that this works because it preserves the rider's privacy.

327
00:27:09,116 --> 00:27:17,556
My idea about this is if you're putting out things like locations on a public network like Noster, it's not ideal.

328
00:27:17,556 --> 00:27:31,136
And so to solve that problem, the drivers kind of put out their approximate locations by default, not a precise location, but an approximate location because the driver is out and about.

329
00:27:31,256 --> 00:27:33,736
They're not at their house sitting there driving.

330
00:27:33,896 --> 00:27:35,216
They're out and about driving.

331
00:27:35,396 --> 00:27:39,536
So they're giving an approximate location and the rider doesn't put out any location.

332
00:27:39,676 --> 00:27:56,192
But what they are able to do is see the list of drivers nearby them that could take this ride And by default you select the closest driver and you hit the check mark and then it sends off that ride offer to the driver and um

333
00:27:56,192 --> 00:28:02,972
underneath that select a driver screen there is an advanced button for a public broadcast and this

334
00:28:02,972 --> 00:28:08,052
would be sort of more similar to uber and lyft where you're putting out an approximate location

335
00:28:08,052 --> 00:28:15,532
as the rider and now every driver around you can see that too but it's it's sort of warned against

336
00:28:15,532 --> 00:28:20,772
in the ui because you are broadcasting a location as a rider and you know if you're at home or

337
00:28:20,772 --> 00:28:26,532
something it's not ideal to do that so it's kind of the the hidden option there at the bottom but

338
00:28:26,532 --> 00:28:30,872
it is there if you just want to put out a ride offer and see if anybody takes it

339
00:28:30,872 --> 00:28:38,032
got it and if the driver then accepts it so let's just say the user hasn't gone to the advanced

340
00:28:38,032 --> 00:28:43,492
setting, right? They've selected a driver, they haven't broadcast their location, the driver gets,

341
00:28:43,832 --> 00:28:48,532
what information gets to the driver? Presumably the drivers have their own interface, right?

342
00:28:48,992 --> 00:28:54,532
Yeah. And the driver interface is, you know, they click the I'm going online button. And

343
00:28:54,532 --> 00:29:00,772
when they are online, they're going to show up in that list for the riders. And when they receive

344
00:29:00,772 --> 00:29:07,512
a request, it shows up in the main screen under the go online, go offline button.

345
00:29:08,012 --> 00:29:11,492
And that just has a list of any ride requests coming in at the moment.

346
00:29:12,052 --> 00:29:17,112
And so it'll say, you know, $5.99 fare ride requests coming in.

347
00:29:17,352 --> 00:29:23,572
And it will actually tell you, based on the information that the rider shared from their

348
00:29:23,572 --> 00:29:30,072
route calculation, it'll tell you exactly how many miles, sorry, how many dollars per

349
00:29:30,072 --> 00:29:35,892
mile you're earning or how many sats per mile you're earning depending on your settings and it

350
00:29:35,892 --> 00:29:40,372
will tell you how many sats per hour that is estimated to be based on the time calculation

351
00:29:40,372 --> 00:29:49,432
of the ride as well so it's um it's kind of a nice ui feature that uber does not have uh that

352
00:29:49,432 --> 00:29:53,872
the rider knows exactly what they're getting paid per mile and what they're getting paid per hour

353
00:29:53,872 --> 00:29:57,132
to estimate whether a ride is worth taking or not.

354
00:29:58,052 --> 00:29:59,572
But that pops up to them.

355
00:29:59,832 --> 00:30:02,012
Like any rideshare app, it does a little ding.

356
00:30:02,392 --> 00:30:04,812
You get a notification if you have it in the background.

357
00:30:06,012 --> 00:30:09,072
And you open that up and you can see all that information

358
00:30:09,072 --> 00:30:10,392
and decide whether to take the ride.

359
00:30:11,852 --> 00:30:12,072
Okay.

360
00:30:12,692 --> 00:30:15,032
And then let's say the driver accepts it.

361
00:30:15,832 --> 00:30:17,732
Does the payment happen at that point?

362
00:30:18,872 --> 00:30:19,252
No.

363
00:30:19,252 --> 00:30:29,492
So by default, if you're using the Bitcoin setting, there is a sort of intricate, a more intricate dance that happens.

364
00:30:29,952 --> 00:30:41,672
So what happens when you accept the ride is that there's a handshake between the rider and the driver to basically both confirm that they're going to be on that same ride together.

365
00:30:41,672 --> 00:30:48,532
So in the background, they're sort of exchanging encrypted DMs saying, I accept the ride.

366
00:30:48,652 --> 00:30:50,192
OK, you've got to accept the ride.

367
00:30:50,312 --> 00:30:52,632
I see that you've accepted the ride and we're both on the same ride.

368
00:30:53,292 --> 00:30:57,512
And so when that happens, there's no exchange of money.

369
00:30:58,012 --> 00:31:02,532
But at the point of acceptance, you are exchanging as the rider.

370
00:31:02,532 --> 00:31:10,512
if you're using the Bitcoin cash you option, you're exchanging a pre image or a or not a pre image,

371
00:31:10,612 --> 00:31:19,072
but a payment hash that is basically, hey, like I'm going to get the wallet key, the wallet pub key

372
00:31:19,072 --> 00:31:25,572
from the driver and I'm going to make a make a payment up ahead of time as escrow. But you can't

373
00:31:25,572 --> 00:31:29,512
unlock that payment until you pick me up.

374
00:31:30,332 --> 00:31:31,332
And so, and that's,

375
00:31:31,372 --> 00:31:35,612
that's at the base layer behind the scenes is that there has to be an actual

376
00:31:35,612 --> 00:31:40,712
pickup to prove this is a real ride. And so in the front end,

377
00:31:40,952 --> 00:31:44,932
it's a lot simpler than this because, you know,

378
00:31:44,932 --> 00:31:48,192
the front end app is confirming that the rider has funds for this.

379
00:31:48,712 --> 00:31:51,372
They're letting them send out a ride because of that.

380
00:31:51,552 --> 00:31:53,672
And then once the ride's accepted,

381
00:31:53,672 --> 00:31:59,972
they're making that sort of transaction ahead of time but they're not it they haven't paid

382
00:31:59,972 --> 00:32:06,912
anything yet it's sort of an htlc with with escrow sort of behind the scenes but what happens for the

383
00:32:06,912 --> 00:32:12,452
rider is they see a pin and um they see the ability to chat with the driver if they need to

384
00:32:12,452 --> 00:32:18,632
tell them information like a gate code or something like that um and so their pin pops up and this

385
00:32:18,632 --> 00:32:26,152
says give this to the driver when he gets there basically and when the driver pulls up he presses

386
00:32:26,152 --> 00:32:33,212
a button that says he's arrived that notifies the rider if they don't know already and um and then

387
00:32:33,212 --> 00:32:38,812
it gives them the option to put in the pin that the rider has so this is just proof of life

388
00:32:38,812 --> 00:32:45,852
stuff you know the rider gets in your car he's going to tell you that pin and then once that

389
00:32:45,852 --> 00:32:53,132
rider has told you that pin the the escrow is technically unlockable by the driver

390
00:32:53,132 --> 00:33:01,292
so so he's because at the same time the pin acceptance verification happens the rider shares

391
00:33:01,292 --> 00:33:08,372
the pre-image that will allow the driver to unlock the funds and i have some local um some local

392
00:33:08,372 --> 00:33:14,732
stuff on the app to basically make it so that the driver can't unlock those funds until they get into

393
00:33:14,732 --> 00:33:19,412
a certain distance from the drop-off, if that makes sense.

394
00:33:19,912 --> 00:33:21,092
But that's local.

395
00:33:21,272 --> 00:33:26,012
On the back end, technically, they can unlock the funds after the pin verification, just

396
00:33:26,012 --> 00:33:28,852
if they hacked their own version of the app together.

397
00:33:29,392 --> 00:33:34,432
But at least they picked you up, so there's some level of real-life drive is happening.

398
00:33:34,432 --> 00:33:38,912
And I think that's the best trade-off you can get for a decentralized system, is at

399
00:33:38,912 --> 00:33:42,432
least you know that you pick somebody up and you've got them in your car.

400
00:33:42,432 --> 00:33:46,552
and in a polite society that will work out pretty well.

401
00:33:47,392 --> 00:33:51,152
Well, also web of trust will solve for a lot of these things.

402
00:33:51,312 --> 00:33:52,832
And we could talk about that in a second.

403
00:33:53,112 --> 00:33:57,112
Exactly. Web of trust and that sort of update I've been teasing,

404
00:33:57,612 --> 00:34:02,472
which is a different topic we'll get into, I'm sure.

405
00:34:03,112 --> 00:34:07,372
Yeah, yeah. But let's just, I want to go back to one thing which we skipped over.

406
00:34:07,372 --> 00:34:14,392
when the driver accepts it clearly the the consumer's location needs to be communicated to

407
00:34:14,392 --> 00:34:20,852
them how does that happen yeah so after the driver accepts the ride they are communicating their

408
00:34:20,852 --> 00:34:27,212
um approximate location and then as it's set up right now they're communicating their approximate

409
00:34:27,212 --> 00:34:33,432
location first and then as the driver gets closer it updates to the real location but i do think

410
00:34:33,432 --> 00:34:37,552
that that's easily gameable in the background anyways so i'm probably just going to change it

411
00:34:37,552 --> 00:34:41,852
to where the once the acceptance handshake happens they are broadcasting their real location

412
00:34:41,852 --> 00:34:47,992
you mean the driver or the or the rider because i'm talking about the rider okay yeah the the

413
00:34:47,992 --> 00:34:51,772
rider will be broadcasting the real location as the pickup but they're only broadcasting it to

414
00:34:51,772 --> 00:34:58,932
the person that accepted their ride so is that via nip 17 dm or uh something else it's it's a

415
00:34:58,932 --> 00:35:03,212
NIP44GM that is deleted during the end of ride process.

416
00:35:03,952 --> 00:35:08,912
But it's encrypted to your in-pub either way,

417
00:35:09,012 --> 00:35:13,432
and it's decrypted by the driver's app.

418
00:35:14,272 --> 00:35:18,792
But it's only to that one person you shared the ride with.

419
00:35:20,152 --> 00:35:20,972
Got it.

420
00:35:21,872 --> 00:35:24,372
Okay, so the location gets revealed,

421
00:35:24,572 --> 00:35:26,432
the driver comes, picks them up,

422
00:35:26,672 --> 00:35:28,352
then they can claim their escrow.

423
00:35:28,352 --> 00:35:34,592
And really the only thing that could go wrong at that point is they claim the escrow and then they kick the rider out.

424
00:35:34,932 --> 00:35:37,672
Yeah, and it's sort of a game theory thing.

425
00:35:37,772 --> 00:35:40,672
It's like, well, are people really going to be bold enough to do this?

426
00:35:40,732 --> 00:35:42,692
I hope not, but it's possible.

427
00:35:43,232 --> 00:35:44,752
Well, you'll never get it right again.

428
00:35:44,752 --> 00:35:58,972
Yeah, and that's sort of the thing is that I do have a plan to mitigate a lot of these things by sort of incentivizing good drivers through the next update.

429
00:36:01,872 --> 00:36:02,792
But go ahead.

430
00:36:02,932 --> 00:36:04,432
Keep on asking questions.

431
00:36:05,172 --> 00:36:06,192
No, so this is good.

432
00:36:06,232 --> 00:36:06,892
So this makes sense.

433
00:36:06,892 --> 00:36:18,752
So really, the transaction itself, in theory, has ended, the financial part of it, once the rider gets in because the driver can't claim it.

434
00:36:18,772 --> 00:36:21,532
And then they just drop them off and they say, off you go, right?

435
00:36:21,612 --> 00:36:33,892
Yeah, and by default in my app, it is going to prevent that by basically hiding the confirm to drop off thing until your location is within a certain distance from the actual drop off.

436
00:36:33,892 --> 00:36:39,492
So at least if you're using the actual app, you won't be gaming people like that and just kicking them out.

437
00:36:40,132 --> 00:36:45,912
If you cancel early, it will allow the rider to refund after the HTLC expires.

438
00:36:47,132 --> 00:36:58,032
But yeah, I mean, if they hack their own app together, they could theoretically grab the pre-image ahead of time as soon as they get a real person in the car.

439
00:36:58,032 --> 00:37:03,792
actually there are two locations from the i was just thinking about it from the rider's

440
00:37:03,792 --> 00:37:08,212
perspective that need to be communicated right the pickup and the destination right and i think

441
00:37:08,212 --> 00:37:15,332
and both of those are are uh communicated in that ride offer in that in the nip 44 yeah yeah and

442
00:37:15,332 --> 00:37:20,912
actually the way i have it set up is you're not communicating both of those locations in the in

443
00:37:20,912 --> 00:37:26,232
the initial ride offers you're you're kind of communicating like this is the route distance i

444
00:37:26,232 --> 00:37:32,512
calculated this is the time i calculated and this is how far i am from you the driver and so all that

445
00:37:32,512 --> 00:37:38,592
is the initial ride offer once it's accepted you are transmitting your destination and the and the

446
00:37:38,592 --> 00:37:44,252
pickup so it's a slightly different from uber and lyft because if i'm not mistaken right because

447
00:37:44,252 --> 00:37:52,452
in uber and lyft obviously the driver sees the exact location of pickup they have no idea of the

448
00:37:52,452 --> 00:37:58,832
drop off right and then this is to prevent people saying drivers from canceling complicated locations

449
00:37:58,832 --> 00:38:04,732
well actually they they do now uh tell you ahead of time so before you accept the ride on uber and

450
00:38:04,732 --> 00:38:11,832
lyft they will tell you an approximate street like intersection so they'll say oh you know las vegas

451
00:38:11,832 --> 00:38:18,772
boulevard and elkhorn drive or something like that they'll kind of like give you a street corner

452
00:38:18,772 --> 00:38:20,772
before you accept the ride.

453
00:38:20,852 --> 00:38:21,852
And once you accept the ride,

454
00:38:21,892 --> 00:38:26,152
it does tell you more information on Lyft.

455
00:38:26,772 --> 00:38:30,232
Uber kind of hides it until you pick them up again.

456
00:38:30,692 --> 00:38:33,392
But ahead of time, it does show you on the map,

457
00:38:33,752 --> 00:38:35,692
number one, this is where you're going to be dropping off.

458
00:38:35,692 --> 00:38:39,352
But it also shows you estimated street corners

459
00:38:39,352 --> 00:38:42,312
or names of nearby places that you might recognize.

460
00:38:42,872 --> 00:38:44,952
But they do kind of share that ahead of time

461
00:38:44,952 --> 00:38:48,532
with the driver and rider on both systems.

462
00:38:48,772 --> 00:38:55,572
got it and and i know you mentioned this at the beginning but uh it'll be helpful to

463
00:38:55,572 --> 00:39:01,612
restate it there's drivester and there's ridester and i think you called one of them a protocol

464
00:39:01,612 --> 00:39:09,512
so this app the rider uses that's ridester correct yeah ridester is the name of the the

465
00:39:09,512 --> 00:39:14,812
rider app and it's also just the name of the protocol that i you know i haven't really thought

466
00:39:14,812 --> 00:39:19,412
too much about naming the protocol, but it's, it's just goes, goes hand in hand, I guess.

467
00:39:20,912 --> 00:39:23,572
Got it. And DriveStir is the driver app.

468
00:39:24,652 --> 00:39:27,052
Yes. And DriveStir is the default driver app.

469
00:39:28,092 --> 00:39:33,252
Got it. Okay. So in your, in that video that I talked about at the beginning,

470
00:39:33,652 --> 00:39:38,632
the one that helped me find out about you and what you're building,

471
00:39:38,632 --> 00:39:48,712
you talked about the chicken and egg problem so why don't you talk about that in simple terms

472
00:39:48,712 --> 00:39:54,112
what what is the chicken and egg problem that you're trying to solve here yeah so in the second

473
00:39:54,112 --> 00:40:01,392
video i posted um i posted about this chicken and egg problem and um in my first video where i just

474
00:40:01,392 --> 00:40:07,592
showed a ride a ride flow it sort of describes um how the app i've just described to you works

475
00:40:07,592 --> 00:40:10,172
And it shows that in that first video.

476
00:40:10,312 --> 00:40:15,732
But I was getting a ton of comments that were like, hey, Uber and Lyft have a giant network effect.

477
00:40:15,772 --> 00:40:19,592
How are you ever going to actually make this popular enough for it to function?

478
00:40:20,972 --> 00:40:33,652
And so I made a second video following up because after I started development on RideStar and Drivestir, I had this thought in the back of my head.

479
00:40:33,652 --> 00:40:36,792
I understand network effects just like those people in my comments.

480
00:40:36,792 --> 00:40:49,272
And I have, I've been thinking, okay, I'm going to build this out, but if no one uses it, I might want to just build myself a little app that like bat signals out to, to riders that I already know.

481
00:40:49,272 --> 00:40:55,912
and um when i was talking to another nostor user about ridester and drivester

482
00:40:55,912 --> 00:41:05,572
um who who all he also made like a prototype ride share protocol on nostor his name is darren

483
00:41:05,572 --> 00:41:11,272
we were talking about this and i brought up my whole idea that like hey if ridester and

484
00:41:11,272 --> 00:41:15,412
drivester doesn't work out i'm just gonna make an app for when i'm ubering ubering and lifting

485
00:41:15,412 --> 00:41:17,412
where I can just hand out

486
00:41:17,412 --> 00:41:19,832
the app to people

487
00:41:19,832 --> 00:41:21,612
and then they can reconnect with me

488
00:41:21,612 --> 00:41:23,292
and it calculates a fare for them and stuff.

489
00:41:23,592 --> 00:41:25,772
And I'm just thinking that this will be

490
00:41:25,772 --> 00:41:27,752
their little bat signal to get a hold of me.

491
00:41:29,012 --> 00:41:29,672
And then

492
00:41:29,672 --> 00:41:31,512
as I was talking to Darren about it, I'm like,

493
00:41:31,592 --> 00:41:31,992
wait a minute.

494
00:41:33,372 --> 00:42:00,688
Hold on This bat signal idea is actually the killer app Because basically if I a great Uber driver and I a great Lyft driver and people already sort of ask me for return rides sometimes you know if they having a great time on my ride and they love my car it might be you know nice interior nice seats

495
00:42:00,688 --> 00:42:02,528
and they've just like had a great ride experience,

496
00:42:02,608 --> 00:42:03,708
a lot of times people ask you,

497
00:42:03,788 --> 00:42:04,768
hey, can I get your number?

498
00:42:05,208 --> 00:42:07,308
I'm going to hit you up later after I get out of the bar

499
00:42:07,308 --> 00:42:08,508
or do whatever.

500
00:42:09,288 --> 00:42:11,708
And from that, I'm like,

501
00:42:11,828 --> 00:42:13,508
well, if I build my own app on the protocol

502
00:42:13,508 --> 00:42:15,168
for just bat singling out to me,

503
00:42:16,048 --> 00:42:19,008
what if they're able to add other riders to that easily?

504
00:42:19,268 --> 00:42:21,128
And then it kind of onboards

505
00:42:21,128 --> 00:42:23,208
their own little personal rideshare network.

506
00:42:24,248 --> 00:42:26,068
And so the chicken and the egg problem

507
00:42:26,068 --> 00:42:29,148
is basically Uber and Lyft have a giant network

508
00:42:29,148 --> 00:42:42,868
And any rideshare company that has tried to compete with that doesn't really have the ability to onboard all the drivers and riders enough to make the system work.

509
00:42:42,948 --> 00:42:51,148
Because the chicken and the egg problem is like, I, as a rider, want to ride, but nobody's driving on your app because there's no other riders right now.

510
00:42:51,148 --> 00:42:58,928
and by making a a new sort of application that's more of like a bat signal like hey i already

511
00:42:58,928 --> 00:43:04,728
rode in your car i like you as a driver and now i'm just going to be able to press this button to

512
00:43:04,728 --> 00:43:10,868
get a hold of you and see if you're available am i doing a good job at explaining that

513
00:43:10,868 --> 00:43:20,128
well i'm trying to draw a parallel to how it works in more informal markets which is

514
00:43:20,128 --> 00:43:25,448
they just give you a business card right and say call this number next time you can call me directly

515
00:43:25,448 --> 00:43:32,868
yeah and and so that happens so i i explained how a lot of people they just ask for your number

516
00:43:32,868 --> 00:43:40,308
but what happens with this is there's a song and dance that happens if you're trying to to perform

517
00:43:40,308 --> 00:43:48,028
a ride outside of an app because um normally if i give out my number to somebody i might get a text

518
00:43:48,028 --> 00:43:52,368
back from them either if if they're trying to get a ride that day i might get that text back that day

519
00:43:52,368 --> 00:43:57,668
and i come pick them up and it works out for that one ride but there's a song and dance of like okay

520
00:43:57,668 --> 00:44:04,668
well where are you where am i what's the fair gonna be um i'm just spitballing you know 20 bucks 25

521
00:44:04,668 --> 00:44:11,868
bucks 15 bucks depending on where they are um but there's so much back and forth and it's all over

522
00:44:11,868 --> 00:44:19,448
text message or calling and it's like it's kind of a lot of friction it's a ton of friction and

523
00:44:19,448 --> 00:44:27,208
what what happens is invariably whether you get two three return rides after that it fizzles out

524
00:44:27,208 --> 00:44:31,248
and they never text you again and it's not because you're providing a bad service it's just

525
00:44:31,248 --> 00:44:37,408
the back and forth friction yeah of plotting that ride was so freaking hard that it's like

526
00:44:37,408 --> 00:44:43,308
it's just easier to open the app and book a ride, a driver, um, that's nearby me. Right.

527
00:44:45,308 --> 00:44:51,548
And so that, that brings me, I'll just lead into the, what is the egg for this chicken and egg

528
00:44:51,548 --> 00:44:58,368
problem? Um, the egg that I want to make is inside of ride stir and drive stir. I'm building

529
00:44:58,368 --> 00:45:06,428
a tab that's just called road flare and road flare is this bat signal.

530
00:45:07,408 --> 00:45:08,288
if you will.

531
00:45:09,088 --> 00:45:12,628
It's the ability that if I like a driver,

532
00:45:13,388 --> 00:45:15,568
I have a little contact list where it's like,

533
00:45:16,168 --> 00:45:20,068
I can just scan their QR code after they make a key

534
00:45:20,068 --> 00:45:21,728
if they're brand new to this.

535
00:45:22,408 --> 00:45:26,568
And then it adds them into my list of followed drivers.

536
00:45:27,668 --> 00:45:31,288
And then what that allows me to do

537
00:45:31,288 --> 00:45:34,688
is I can get their real location encrypted

538
00:45:34,688 --> 00:45:37,008
and sent to me to calculate fares.

539
00:45:37,408 --> 00:45:45,748
while they're online. And so it makes it so that I have my own little ride share network.

540
00:45:45,988 --> 00:45:51,868
Say that I ride on Uber and Lyft every day. Say that that's how I get to work every day.

541
00:45:52,508 --> 00:45:58,008
Those type of people are spending ridiculous amounts of money a month. They could probably

542
00:45:58,008 --> 00:46:02,528
buy a nice Cybertruck with all the money that they're spending on Uber and Lyft.

543
00:46:02,528 --> 00:46:12,648
with this alternative they maybe add four to five good drivers that they really enjoyed their ride

544
00:46:12,648 --> 00:46:18,628
with on their daily uber and lyft commutes to a list and there's no friction for sign up it's just

545
00:46:18,628 --> 00:46:25,948
put your first name and you know you're in and uh but the the trust factor is kind of already

546
00:46:25,948 --> 00:46:31,268
solved i've ridden with this person i like their driving abilities and now i'm putting them in my

547
00:46:31,268 --> 00:46:38,688
little list and now when those drivers go online they could just go online on road flare and um

548
00:46:38,688 --> 00:46:44,908
if a road flare is sent out by one of those repeat riders then it kind of sends that offer

549
00:46:44,908 --> 00:46:51,368
out to everybody who they've already put in their favorites list and now they have their personal

550
00:46:51,368 --> 00:46:56,768
favorite drivers with a lower fare than uber and lyft and they're going to get paid 100 of the fee

551
00:46:56,768 --> 00:46:57,728
or the fare.

552
00:46:59,168 --> 00:46:59,348
Okay.

553
00:47:00,748 --> 00:47:02,768
I think it's beginning to make sense, Sterling,

554
00:47:02,868 --> 00:47:04,148
but let's just walk through this slowly

555
00:47:04,148 --> 00:47:06,788
with, again, a tangible example.

556
00:47:08,288 --> 00:47:11,428
I get in, I call an Uber, right?

557
00:47:11,468 --> 00:47:11,988
Regular Uber.

558
00:47:12,348 --> 00:47:12,908
I get in.

559
00:47:13,408 --> 00:47:15,748
I like the driver by the end of the journey.

560
00:47:16,188 --> 00:47:18,508
I happen to have DriveStar installed

561
00:47:18,508 --> 00:47:21,588
or RideStar, rather, on my phone

562
00:47:21,588 --> 00:47:22,988
because I'm the rider.

563
00:47:22,988 --> 00:47:26,988
so really you need

564
00:47:26,988 --> 00:47:28,448
evangelists like this

565
00:47:28,448 --> 00:47:33,168
so then I say

566
00:47:33,168 --> 00:47:35,488
alright driver you did a great job

567
00:47:35,488 --> 00:47:37,568
can you download this app called Drivestor

568
00:47:37,568 --> 00:47:39,348
download it

569
00:47:39,348 --> 00:47:40,748
scan this QR code

570
00:47:40,748 --> 00:47:41,608
my road flare

571
00:47:41,608 --> 00:47:44,048
from my Ridester app

572
00:47:44,048 --> 00:47:46,188
and now you're added to my

573
00:47:46,188 --> 00:47:47,708
trusted list of drivers

574
00:47:47,708 --> 00:47:48,908
so

575
00:47:48,908 --> 00:47:51,368
is that how it works

576
00:47:51,368 --> 00:47:53,188
And then I have, and I do this with.

577
00:47:53,188 --> 00:47:54,368
That is how it works right now.

578
00:47:54,688 --> 00:47:57,488
In the flow that I've built, that's how it works right now.

579
00:47:57,688 --> 00:48:05,788
However, I do want to move towards a progressive web app and, or a PWA for short, if people

580
00:48:05,788 --> 00:48:11,508
have heard of those, because essentially it'd be even better if it's just the link, right?

581
00:48:11,548 --> 00:48:17,128
So, you know, as the writer, I want to just show my QR code and then the driver's like,

582
00:48:17,128 --> 00:48:23,288
yeah i'll scan this and then just create a key in my web browser and then that's going to be like

583
00:48:23,288 --> 00:48:28,568
where these notifications come from if you want to ride later and and the fare is already plotted

584
00:48:28,568 --> 00:48:34,908
out and the rider and the driver can deny it or accept it just like any other ride okay so let me

585
00:48:34,908 --> 00:48:43,848
just take a click of this is almost certainly going to happen um i flash the qr code the driver scans

586
00:48:43,848 --> 00:48:46,448
it, it opens up a tab in their phone browser.

587
00:48:48,188 --> 00:48:53,468
And maybe a couple of clicks, they have a NOSTA key.

588
00:48:54,168 --> 00:48:54,468
Yes.

589
00:48:54,748 --> 00:48:55,388
All good.

590
00:48:55,548 --> 00:48:56,528
Then they close the tab.

591
00:48:57,588 --> 00:48:57,948
What happens?

592
00:48:58,348 --> 00:48:58,548
Right?

593
00:48:59,388 --> 00:49:00,408
What happens then?

594
00:49:00,568 --> 00:49:05,368
As long as they don't delete their cookies, in theory, it should all resume to exactly

595
00:49:05,368 --> 00:49:06,968
where it was the next time they open that.

596
00:49:06,968 --> 00:49:13,448
But ideally, like any progressive web app can, you want to flash the little, you want

597
00:49:13,448 --> 00:49:20,308
to install this to your home screen yeah yeah um and then they can sort of install that web app to

598
00:49:20,308 --> 00:49:25,148
their home screen yeah so that before they get online anything else they click that button

599
00:49:25,148 --> 00:49:31,028
and it you know it's not a perfect system but i am trying to make it as little friction as possible

600
00:49:31,028 --> 00:49:37,928
in the long term so that it makes sense i this it's a great starting point sterling look you need

601
00:49:37,928 --> 00:49:42,528
these enthusiasts, these evangelists who start off small, right?

602
00:49:42,568 --> 00:49:44,988
I mean, look, let's not kid ourselves, right?

603
00:49:45,008 --> 00:49:47,988
There is no network effect on day zero or day one even.

604
00:49:48,168 --> 00:49:49,368
No, no, not at all.

605
00:49:50,028 --> 00:49:53,028
So you need it to spread like a virus through.

606
00:49:53,208 --> 00:49:53,588
Exactly.

607
00:49:54,708 --> 00:49:57,188
Through patient zero, right?

608
00:49:57,188 --> 00:49:59,268
So we are all patient zero.

609
00:50:00,248 --> 00:50:03,788
All these, the nostril evangelists, nostril enthusiasts,

610
00:50:04,508 --> 00:50:06,028
and Bitcoiners even, right?

611
00:50:06,048 --> 00:50:07,448
Because this is all Bitcoin based.

612
00:50:07,928 --> 00:50:16,648
at least default. So you really need this to spread like a virus, build up a massive database

613
00:50:16,648 --> 00:50:26,468
of drivers. So I get it. So evangelism from the rider side, is there a sort of a counterpoint,

614
00:50:27,208 --> 00:50:32,808
not counterpoint, is there an equivalent on the driver side where the driver is an evangelist?

615
00:50:32,808 --> 00:50:47,168
Absolutely. Absolutely. So it's clearly stated when I sort of open up that QR code on the driver's side that this is for people who are asking for return rights.

616
00:50:47,168 --> 00:50:50,068
but I'm trying to make it so that

617
00:50:50,068 --> 00:50:52,328
your driver isn't too much of an evangelist

618
00:50:52,328 --> 00:50:54,528
like they're not forcing people to sign up for this app

619
00:50:54,528 --> 00:50:56,308
but they know that when a person

620
00:50:56,308 --> 00:50:57,548
already likes them a lot

621
00:50:57,548 --> 00:50:59,548
and is asking for their contact information

622
00:50:59,548 --> 00:51:01,848
instead of your contact information

623
00:51:01,848 --> 00:51:03,008
give them this

624
00:51:03,008 --> 00:51:04,448
if that makes sense

625
00:51:04,448 --> 00:51:06,688
because ultimately

626
00:51:06,688 --> 00:51:09,688
I drive Uber and Lyft enough to know

627
00:51:09,688 --> 00:51:11,968
that people will ask for return rides a lot

628
00:51:11,968 --> 00:51:12,848
if you're a good driver

629
00:51:12,848 --> 00:51:13,908
and

630
00:51:13,908 --> 00:51:21,408
And, you know, you get that question a lot like, hey, you do this outside of the app sometimes.

631
00:51:21,808 --> 00:51:27,148
It's like, well, why don't you take my QR code here?

632
00:51:27,568 --> 00:51:30,948
And then you just make a writer profile with your first name.

633
00:51:31,188 --> 00:51:36,408
And next time you before you hit up Uber and Lyft, just calculate the fairness and see if it's worth it.

634
00:51:37,588 --> 00:51:39,848
So let's talk about that scenario.

635
00:51:40,448 --> 00:51:40,708
Right.

636
00:51:40,708 --> 00:51:45,428
I'm a sly roundabout orange pillar

637
00:51:45,428 --> 00:51:47,068
and I've decided to become an Uber driver.

638
00:51:47,528 --> 00:51:48,968
Well, take your example.

639
00:51:49,648 --> 00:51:51,368
Let's say Bitcoin crashes to 58K

640
00:51:51,368 --> 00:51:53,588
and you're like, crap, I have to go back to Uber and Lyft

641
00:51:53,588 --> 00:51:55,048
for a couple of months.

642
00:51:56,268 --> 00:51:57,428
And you do that.

643
00:51:57,768 --> 00:51:59,908
And you have a customer who says,

644
00:51:59,968 --> 00:52:01,848
hey, you know, you're great.

645
00:52:02,308 --> 00:52:04,048
How can I call you again?

646
00:52:04,108 --> 00:52:05,408
So instead of handing them a business card,

647
00:52:05,408 --> 00:52:07,948
you open up Drivestir.

648
00:52:07,948 --> 00:52:17,128
you flash the road flare which is the qr code they scan it it again opens up in a tab in their

649
00:52:17,128 --> 00:52:21,848
phone browser and then you tell them look save this to your home screen it becomes a progressive

650
00:52:21,848 --> 00:52:28,168
web app but you need to fill in your profile blah blah blah right it's just the first name

651
00:52:28,168 --> 00:52:32,048
because you already know these people they've got an in pub in the background which is their real

652
00:52:32,048 --> 00:52:36,928
identity but that first name is just all they need to put in so there's not a whole lot of

653
00:52:36,928 --> 00:52:38,708
sign-up friction or anything like that?

654
00:52:40,468 --> 00:52:40,908
Right.

655
00:52:41,108 --> 00:52:46,168
So scanning the QR code will spin up an NPUB

656
00:52:46,168 --> 00:52:48,348
that's sitting on their phone that they control.

657
00:52:48,368 --> 00:52:48,728
Exactly.

658
00:52:49,468 --> 00:52:49,608
Yeah.

659
00:52:49,768 --> 00:52:50,488
That's great.

660
00:52:50,628 --> 00:52:50,788
Okay.

661
00:52:50,988 --> 00:52:54,868
So then this rider gets off,

662
00:52:55,048 --> 00:52:56,108
and then a couple of days later is like,

663
00:52:56,168 --> 00:52:57,528
hey, who is a really nice driver?

664
00:52:58,048 --> 00:52:59,348
Let me see if he's available.

665
00:52:59,428 --> 00:53:00,968
Let me open this app he made me download.

666
00:53:01,208 --> 00:53:03,068
So they open the Progressive Web app,

667
00:53:03,468 --> 00:53:04,288
and they book a ride,

668
00:53:04,348 --> 00:53:06,908
and then it comes time to pay, right?

669
00:53:06,928 --> 00:53:10,628
And presumably the PWA is full-fledged rightster at that point, right?

670
00:53:11,768 --> 00:53:23,348
So I've sort of fallen back to, okay, well, any Bitcoin app is a lot harder to push than a regular app.

671
00:53:23,548 --> 00:53:30,948
And what this does is on the writer screen, they can essentially select which alternate payment methods they have.

672
00:53:31,188 --> 00:53:36,648
So if they don't want to use Bitcoin, by default, it's going to pop up with a list that they can check.

673
00:53:36,648 --> 00:53:45,008
okay i have zelle i have cash app i have paypal i have venmo i have whatever and um i want to make

674
00:53:45,008 --> 00:53:49,388
it so you can sort your priority like what you like the best to the top i haven't made it yet

675
00:53:49,388 --> 00:53:55,548
like that but as it works right now is that if it's a road flare you already know the driver and

676
00:53:55,548 --> 00:53:59,388
rider they're real people you had a good experience with both of them on both sides because they added

677
00:53:59,388 --> 00:54:07,148
each other um now they both select the alternate payment methods that they're willing to accept

678
00:54:07,148 --> 00:54:13,328
in their region and then when they make that right offer it comes up with a little extra

679
00:54:13,328 --> 00:54:19,488
message on that right offer it says it's a road flare and it says you have this mutual payment

680
00:54:19,488 --> 00:54:25,548
method of zelle or you have this mutual payment method of venmo or whatever your mutual payment

681
00:54:25,548 --> 00:54:32,148
methods are so you are paying outside the app there is not the sort of trust guarantees of

682
00:54:32,148 --> 00:54:39,388
using a cash you meant um sort of htlc in the background but you've already met this guy you

683
00:54:39,388 --> 00:54:43,368
like this guy you gave him your phone number in the first place and that's as it is right now

684
00:54:43,368 --> 00:54:48,328
that's how things outside of the app are handled most of the time is everybody just sort of does

685
00:54:48,328 --> 00:54:53,908
the ride and then at the end of it they're like so do you have venmo or do you take cash or whatever

686
00:54:53,908 --> 00:54:59,268
and so I'm sort of integrating that in the front end so that you just choose those things ahead of

687
00:54:59,268 --> 00:55:04,768
time when you're booking the ride and then it's the same to your profile. Just to clarify any fiat

688
00:55:04,768 --> 00:55:11,988
payment whatever it is Zelle Venmo PayPal that's going to be out of band right it won't be within

689
00:55:11,988 --> 00:55:18,408
the app. Yes it's out of band so and and this is sort of the whole idea of Roadflare is the trust

690
00:55:18,408 --> 00:55:24,148
element is no longer dependent on a decentralized network or decentralized money.

691
00:55:24,608 --> 00:55:31,608
It's sort of really a social layer of just, I trust this guy and I'm willing to pick him up again,

692
00:55:31,608 --> 00:55:33,188
or I trust this guy and I'm willing for him.

693
00:55:33,264 --> 00:55:36,024
to pick me up again, if that makes sense.

694
00:55:37,744 --> 00:55:40,244
Which is already what people are doing.

695
00:55:40,904 --> 00:55:41,064
Yeah.

696
00:55:41,464 --> 00:55:43,424
It is tempting as a Bitcoiner to say,

697
00:55:43,524 --> 00:55:46,844
God, I've got this person down to this level.

698
00:55:47,364 --> 00:55:49,944
Why not just throw in the orange pill right now?

699
00:55:50,064 --> 00:55:51,084
Just get them to...

700
00:55:51,084 --> 00:55:55,084
It is subtly thrown in because that very first message says,

701
00:55:55,744 --> 00:55:57,664
hey, you don't have any Bitcoin,

702
00:55:57,884 --> 00:56:01,304
which is the preferred payment method for this app,

703
00:56:01,304 --> 00:56:05,784
but set your alternative payment methods if you don't want to deal with that.

704
00:56:06,264 --> 00:56:09,844
So it's sort of like I'm throwing it out there.

705
00:56:10,084 --> 00:56:11,204
The orange pill is first.

706
00:56:11,324 --> 00:56:13,204
This is the preferred payment method of the app,

707
00:56:13,864 --> 00:56:18,784
but here's alternative payment methods you can set only for road flares,

708
00:56:19,024 --> 00:56:19,864
if that makes sense.

709
00:56:23,084 --> 00:56:25,704
Yeah. All right. Fascinating stuff, Sterling.

710
00:56:25,924 --> 00:56:27,384
We're approaching the hour mark.

711
00:56:27,384 --> 00:56:32,624
so and I do there's lots of stuff I want to talk to you about like you said there's a new thing

712
00:56:32,624 --> 00:56:36,964
that that's coming out and there's we need to talk about that is that is the road flare stuff

713
00:56:36,964 --> 00:56:41,824
we're talking about so okay that's right gotcha okay but I do want to talk about web of trust

714
00:56:41,824 --> 00:56:48,364
as well so and I'm sure there's more to talk about with the app but before we do that it's time for

715
00:56:48,364 --> 00:56:56,664
our open music segment and you know we're hitting this hour mark with something absolutely crushing

716
00:56:56,664 --> 00:57:00,184
I talk a lot about signal versus noise on the show.

717
00:57:00,544 --> 00:57:03,264
Well, this track is all signal.

718
00:57:03,844 --> 00:57:09,444
It's heavy, it's slow, and it vibrates at a frequency that feels like the earth is moving.

719
00:57:10,504 --> 00:57:19,344
The band, I don't know how to pronounce their name actually, it's either I-R-O-H or Iroh, Iroh, and the track is called Heaven Knows.

720
00:57:20,064 --> 00:57:22,784
This isn't background music, this is a warning.

721
00:57:22,784 --> 00:57:26,984
So crank the volume and let's feel it.

722
00:57:52,784 --> 00:57:56,584
Man built this vessel

723
00:57:56,584 --> 00:58:02,384
It washed away

724
00:58:02,384 --> 00:58:06,284
Reverse all creation

725
00:58:06,284 --> 00:58:13,044
Hell's burning rain

726
00:58:13,044 --> 00:58:20,984
Heaven knows that the valleys will flood

727
00:58:20,984 --> 00:58:26,064
Heaven knows that the mountains will drown

728
00:58:26,064 --> 00:58:29,324
What could lie underneath?

729
00:58:31,184 --> 00:58:34,824
Break the gates

730
00:58:34,824 --> 00:58:39,224
For a moment

731
00:58:50,984 --> 00:58:55,524
Beware the milk flow

732
00:58:55,524 --> 00:59:01,624
The knowledge it brings

733
00:59:01,624 --> 00:59:05,104
The lives that were taken

734
00:59:05,104 --> 00:59:11,864
The fountains of deep

735
00:59:11,864 --> 00:59:19,744
Heaven knows that the valleys will flood

736
00:59:19,744 --> 00:59:24,824
Heaven know that the mountains will drown

737
00:59:24,824 --> 00:59:28,424
What could lie underneath?

738
00:59:29,944 --> 00:59:33,444
Break the gate

739
00:59:33,444 --> 00:59:37,964
For romance

740
00:59:37,964 --> 00:59:43,824
Lonely like the tide

741
00:59:43,824 --> 00:59:48,624
Breaking like the wave

742
00:59:48,624 --> 00:59:54,204
Carried out by time

743
00:59:54,204 --> 00:59:59,284
Broken by the waves

744
01:00:18,624 --> 01:00:25,324
Heaven knows we reap what we sow.

745
01:00:26,224 --> 01:00:30,204
Heaven knows we reap what we sow.

746
01:00:32,024 --> 01:00:35,524
That was Heaven Knows by Iroh.

747
01:00:35,904 --> 01:00:36,664
You feel that?

748
01:00:36,744 --> 01:00:39,064
That riff carried the sound of gravity.

749
01:00:39,604 --> 01:00:42,224
And that hook, we reap what we sow.

750
01:00:42,564 --> 01:00:45,324
That is the only law that matters in this bunker.

751
01:00:45,324 --> 01:00:49,244
It is the absolute unyielding math of the universe.

752
01:00:49,624 --> 01:00:54,444
You can print fiat, you can fake the numbers, but you cannot cheat the harvest.

753
01:00:55,164 --> 01:00:56,784
The ledger always balances.

754
01:00:57,684 --> 01:01:00,904
I've got the 90% split setup for the chapter.

755
01:01:01,404 --> 01:01:06,404
If that track hit you in the chest, hit that rewind button by a minute or two

756
01:01:06,404 --> 01:01:10,044
and send some value back to this phenomenal band.

757
01:01:10,404 --> 01:01:13,704
That is how we keep the frequency pure.

758
01:01:13,704 --> 01:01:15,744
What do you think of that track, Sterling?

759
01:01:16,484 --> 01:01:17,084
It's awesome.

760
01:01:18,844 --> 01:01:21,404
Yeah, almost like a Rydster track.

761
01:01:21,784 --> 01:01:22,524
Maybe that's the soundtrack.

762
01:01:22,804 --> 01:01:26,544
Yeah, I could definitely drive to that.

763
01:01:28,284 --> 01:01:32,904
All right, so let's get back to what we were talking about,

764
01:01:34,444 --> 01:01:39,944
which is, you know, as a rider,

765
01:01:40,144 --> 01:01:42,124
so let's say the network is there, right?

766
01:01:42,124 --> 01:01:48,144
It's spread like a virus both through the rider evangelists and the driver evangelists.

767
01:01:48,864 --> 01:01:51,344
We've hijacked Uber.

768
01:01:51,684 --> 01:01:53,184
And really, that's how it's going to work.

769
01:01:53,324 --> 01:01:55,164
We need to hijack those networks.

770
01:01:55,424 --> 01:01:57,904
Yeah, we stole some leads, so to speak.

771
01:01:58,864 --> 01:02:04,364
We've onboarded drivers and riders into their own personal networks, really.

772
01:02:05,244 --> 01:02:07,164
And it's sort of spiderwebbed out.

773
01:02:07,904 --> 01:02:11,444
And ideally, that does build up the network pretty fast.

774
01:02:11,444 --> 01:02:20,684
And I think for those people that are daily users of Uber and Lyft, it really does bring a huge benefit to them to just check that first.

775
01:02:20,784 --> 01:02:22,144
So it probably will spread like fire.

776
01:02:23,584 --> 01:02:24,024
Okay.

777
01:02:24,144 --> 01:02:25,124
So let's say that's happened.

778
01:02:25,564 --> 01:02:26,204
I'm a rider.

779
01:02:26,944 --> 01:02:28,384
I look for a driver.

780
01:02:28,484 --> 01:02:32,324
And let's say the UX – and I get what you're saying, right?

781
01:02:32,324 --> 01:02:38,144
You're not going to show a map now and at least initially it'll – because that's not –

782
01:02:38,144 --> 01:02:39,304
It's technically challenging.

783
01:02:39,304 --> 01:02:41,444
for not a lot of benefit right now.

784
01:02:41,644 --> 01:02:45,744
But I wish I had development skills

785
01:02:45,744 --> 01:02:49,244
to do everything that Uber and Lyft can do right away.

786
01:02:49,684 --> 01:02:50,944
But I am also just,

787
01:02:51,224 --> 01:02:53,504
a lot of this stuff is straight up vibe coded.

788
01:02:53,944 --> 01:02:57,204
So that's how it begins, man.

789
01:02:57,724 --> 01:02:57,924
Yeah.

790
01:02:58,164 --> 01:03:01,104
So this is going to be open source, correct?

791
01:03:01,704 --> 01:03:02,684
It's all open source.

792
01:03:02,804 --> 01:03:03,504
It's all open source.

793
01:03:03,504 --> 01:03:05,784
So once more people hear about it,

794
01:03:06,164 --> 01:03:07,064
you'll have people come saying,

795
01:03:07,184 --> 01:03:08,424
hey, I can do the integration

796
01:03:08,424 --> 01:03:09,524
with OpenStreetMaps.

797
01:03:09,624 --> 01:03:12,544
In fact, if there are any developers listening,

798
01:03:13,084 --> 01:03:15,044
I'll actually, if you have the GitHub link, Sterling,

799
01:03:15,244 --> 01:03:17,024
and you send it to me, I'll put it in the show notes.

800
01:03:17,124 --> 01:03:17,484
Absolutely.

801
01:03:17,884 --> 01:03:21,384
Take a look, help contribute to this amazing project.

802
01:03:21,484 --> 01:03:25,304
Maybe one thing you could do is help integrate OpenStreetMaps

803
01:03:25,304 --> 01:03:28,464
or some kind of open source maps into the app as well

804
01:03:28,464 --> 01:03:31,484
so that we can just make the UX undeniably good

805
01:03:31,484 --> 01:03:35,104
for both riders and for drivers.

806
01:03:35,684 --> 01:03:38,124
Okay, so let's just get back to the example.

807
01:03:38,124 --> 01:03:42,404
You know, fast for over six months, everything that I've talked about materializes.

808
01:03:42,724 --> 01:03:45,444
You have this influx of open source contributions.

809
01:03:46,604 --> 01:03:48,244
And it's a beautiful app.

810
01:03:48,964 --> 01:03:50,444
Now, I'm a writer.

811
01:03:51,044 --> 01:03:56,984
I look for, you know, I'm looking for a driver, right?

812
01:03:58,004 --> 01:04:00,004
And a whole list pops up.

813
01:04:01,104 --> 01:04:02,344
How do I know?

814
01:04:02,604 --> 01:04:05,264
How do I solve for the serial killer problem, right?

815
01:04:05,264 --> 01:04:08,744
Like, how do I know this person I'm selecting is not going to kidnap me?

816
01:04:09,544 --> 01:04:17,884
Because, again, people will know this is a Bitcoin network and we have people's limbs being chopped off and all of that stuff happening, right?

817
01:04:18,844 --> 01:04:23,064
Not limbs, but thumbs and whatnot in France.

818
01:04:23,324 --> 01:04:25,444
So how do you solve for that problem?

819
01:04:26,404 --> 01:04:29,024
Well, that problem is never fully solvable before.

820
01:04:29,024 --> 01:04:35,144
As we know from Uber and Lyft, they're still having the murderer problem every once in a while.

821
01:04:35,264 --> 01:04:37,104
but

822
01:04:37,104 --> 01:04:38,764
I mean

823
01:04:38,764 --> 01:04:40,724
ideally in the long term

824
01:04:40,724 --> 01:04:42,704
there is sort of web of trust

825
01:04:42,704 --> 01:04:44,444
integration like you are

826
01:04:44,444 --> 01:04:45,584
alluding to

827
01:04:45,584 --> 01:04:48,824
in ideal terms

828
01:04:48,824 --> 01:04:50,664
you have a reputation system

829
01:04:50,664 --> 01:04:52,964
for rating your driver and rider

830
01:04:52,964 --> 01:04:54,424
at the end of a ride

831
01:04:54,424 --> 01:04:56,964
and that is

832
01:04:56,964 --> 01:04:58,664
one way to solve things

833
01:04:58,664 --> 01:05:00,684
but with onboarding for this

834
01:05:00,684 --> 01:05:02,264
because it's so frictionless

835
01:05:02,264 --> 01:05:04,124
you know

836
01:05:04,124 --> 01:05:12,604
You don't want new users being penalized for starting to drive right on there by not having reputation either.

837
01:05:13,404 --> 01:05:21,024
So in the ideal world, I think the best way that this is actually solved for is that if people are mainly onboarded to this through Roadflare,

838
01:05:21,524 --> 01:05:32,084
one of the best things you can do is as the person onboarding you to Roadflare, you basically give out your list of recommended drivers as well.

839
01:05:32,084 --> 01:05:39,764
um so say that i'm a rider i i use uber and lyft every day and my friends like hey like i need to

840
01:05:39,764 --> 01:05:44,564
go to the airport next week and then instead you say to him hey do you want to save some money on

841
01:05:44,564 --> 01:05:50,384
that ride like use road flare but also here's my list of all the drivers in town that i use

842
01:05:50,384 --> 01:05:56,304
and so as a primary method if they're just using the road flare side of things

843
01:05:56,304 --> 01:06:00,264
they have sort of that trusted network from their friends already.

844
01:06:01,224 --> 01:06:04,584
But in the large scale of things,

845
01:06:04,684 --> 01:06:07,344
say that this is already built out large term,

846
01:06:07,464 --> 01:06:10,904
I mean, ultimately, there will have to be some web of trust stuff

847
01:06:10,904 --> 01:06:12,944
if you don't have any friends that use this

848
01:06:12,944 --> 01:06:16,524
or if you are onboarding for the very first time

849
01:06:16,524 --> 01:06:18,324
straight onto the decentralized network.

850
01:06:19,044 --> 01:06:22,564
And so ultimately, one thing that can be done

851
01:06:22,564 --> 01:06:30,004
is that you can have data vending machines essentially that are calculating the most

852
01:06:30,004 --> 01:06:36,004
frequently followed riders and or sorry most frequently followed drivers in a town so the

853
01:06:36,004 --> 01:06:41,524
people that people like the most you can essentially see the public lists of the pub keys that are most

854
01:06:41,524 --> 01:06:47,324
followed by all these riders and while while that is gameable you know someone could fake follow

855
01:06:47,324 --> 01:06:49,744
themselves to become a serial killer.

856
01:06:52,244 --> 01:06:53,524
On a default

857
01:06:53,524 --> 01:06:55,824
use of the network,

858
01:06:55,924 --> 01:06:57,884
I think that you'll be able to look at that data

859
01:06:57,884 --> 01:06:59,964
and say, this is a list of really good drivers

860
01:06:59,964 --> 01:07:01,664
that a lot of different

861
01:07:01,664 --> 01:07:03,984
what do you call them?

862
01:07:04,544 --> 01:07:05,804
Spokes and webs

863
01:07:05,804 --> 01:07:06,864
are connected to.

864
01:07:07,584 --> 01:07:09,444
You can mine that data

865
01:07:09,444 --> 01:07:11,864
for your good

866
01:07:11,864 --> 01:07:13,064
driver list in a town.

867
01:07:15,084 --> 01:07:15,204
Yeah.

868
01:07:15,204 --> 01:07:20,964
I mean, all it takes is for someone, as a rider, if you're looking for a drive,

869
01:07:22,004 --> 01:07:26,464
yes, set aside the bootstrapping problem of a new driver coming in who has zero reputation,

870
01:07:26,624 --> 01:07:30,704
right? But let's say for an existing set of drivers, all it takes is for,

871
01:07:31,424 --> 01:07:42,612
as a rider for someone whom you trust so someone you follow or maybe a subset of your followers right who you trust even more and you can have that predefined list

872
01:07:42,792 --> 01:07:46,552
If they've liked or engaged positively

873
01:07:46,552 --> 01:07:48,072
with the driver,

874
01:07:48,452 --> 01:07:49,032
that's, you know,

875
01:07:49,072 --> 01:07:50,932
they just get filtered out that way.

876
01:07:53,372 --> 01:07:55,412
Yeah, and you could absolutely do it

877
01:07:55,412 --> 01:07:56,892
where you have a friends list of people

878
01:07:56,892 --> 01:07:57,952
who also use the app

879
01:07:57,952 --> 01:08:00,952
and it just privately uses, like, all their lists

880
01:08:00,952 --> 01:08:03,372
and the list of lists.

881
01:08:03,892 --> 01:08:06,012
And if people start using their keys from this

882
01:08:06,012 --> 01:08:08,192
on the social side of Noster,

883
01:08:08,332 --> 01:08:10,972
then that could even expand farther, I think.

884
01:08:11,172 --> 01:08:15,432
But it really is up to the designer of each client

885
01:08:15,432 --> 01:08:17,532
on how much they want to integrate

886
01:08:17,532 --> 01:08:20,632
a sort of reputation layer and web of trust.

887
01:08:22,032 --> 01:08:23,532
Well, in an ideal world,

888
01:08:23,672 --> 01:08:25,892
the user has the option of either,

889
01:08:26,532 --> 01:08:28,552
whether it's a rider or a driver,

890
01:08:28,552 --> 01:08:32,132
they have the option of either using their existing NPUB

891
01:08:32,132 --> 01:08:34,552
in which case they port their entire identity

892
01:08:34,552 --> 01:08:38,572
sorry, their entire reputation into this app

893
01:08:38,572 --> 01:08:39,452
and their social graph

894
01:08:39,452 --> 01:08:42,052
which really honestly is the benefit of NOSTA

895
01:08:42,052 --> 01:08:46,752
actually one of the biggest selling points of NOSTA

896
01:08:46,752 --> 01:08:49,792
is portable reputation and identity and social graph

897
01:08:49,792 --> 01:08:53,212
but of course you want to give them the option

898
01:08:53,212 --> 01:08:55,292
if they want to compartmentalize

899
01:08:55,292 --> 01:08:58,612
different aspects of their transactional behaviors.

900
01:08:59,752 --> 01:09:01,412
Yeah, you can do it either way.

901
01:09:01,572 --> 01:09:06,592
And I haven't integrated any use of the regular follow list,

902
01:09:06,592 --> 01:09:13,032
but it absolutely could be easily done where if you follow someone on social Noster

903
01:09:13,032 --> 01:09:16,852
and they're a driver, they're going to go straight to the top of the list

904
01:09:16,852 --> 01:09:19,312
and it will say, hey, you follow this person on Noster.

905
01:09:21,412 --> 01:09:24,832
It could easily be done to put in that feature in the future.

906
01:09:25,292 --> 01:09:31,932
And I think that would be awesome to like, oh, like I've zapped this guy before and he's driving on here.

907
01:09:31,932 --> 01:09:36,852
Like, why wouldn't I just like meet him for the first time and say hi while he's driving me to the airport?

908
01:09:37,932 --> 01:09:41,752
So there's always that possibility.

909
01:09:42,272 --> 01:09:45,852
But yeah, it doesn't you can never fully solve for the murderer problem, unfortunately.

910
01:09:46,072 --> 01:09:52,832
But you can't I think by making the road flare app in addition to the sort of ride store and drive store default.

911
01:09:52,832 --> 01:09:59,752
it really it onboards at the right place because you can continue using uber and lyft if there's

912
01:09:59,752 --> 01:10:07,252
no drivers available on this protocol and just build up your own little network as as you do that

913
01:10:07,252 --> 01:10:13,352
so and what's nice about those is that uber and lyft do have background checks they do have an

914
01:10:13,352 --> 01:10:19,592
identity layer of their own that's like the state issued one and you can kind of you're stealing

915
01:10:19,592 --> 01:10:28,432
those leads to put them into uh drive stir for later so road flare man yeah road flare is the

916
01:10:28,432 --> 01:10:36,632
magic forget about it is that's why i mean so i i had almost built i had almost built the full

917
01:10:36,632 --> 01:10:43,312
prototypes by the time i came up with with road flare so like when my very first video had nothing

918
01:10:43,312 --> 01:10:47,252
to do with road flare at all but i was like in the back of my head just thinking about it beaming

919
01:10:47,252 --> 01:10:51,052
because I just put out that video like,

920
01:10:51,152 --> 01:10:53,132
hey, this is how the Ridester and Drivester work.

921
01:10:53,232 --> 01:10:55,552
But I have a solution for the network effect.

922
01:10:56,112 --> 01:10:58,092
I just need to build something to show off

923
01:10:58,092 --> 01:11:00,472
before I can make that second video,

924
01:11:00,572 --> 01:11:01,472
which is the one you saw.

925
01:11:03,372 --> 01:11:07,752
Being the how Ridester and Drivester win video.

926
01:11:08,612 --> 01:11:10,592
But yeah, Roadflare is the secret sauce.

927
01:11:10,592 --> 01:11:16,132
The thing about this is you don't need a network effect.

928
01:11:17,252 --> 01:11:25,272
The game of Silicon Valley, because they're trying to rent, seek and middleman everything, they need a network effect to win.

929
01:11:26,132 --> 01:11:37,392
But because the main benefit of these protocols is all at the peer level, at the rider and the driver level, you actually don't need the network to win.

930
01:11:37,512 --> 01:11:42,492
You can utilize other networks to win and get cheaper fares and pay your driver more.

931
01:11:42,492 --> 01:11:51,672
and so it's really the best of both worlds and i think in some sense the network effect idea is

932
01:11:51,672 --> 01:11:57,492
an antiquated effect from the rent seeking era that we've experienced like the last 10 years

933
01:11:57,492 --> 01:12:05,292
and um what's really the magic is building community from the ground up well there's another

934
01:12:05,292 --> 01:12:12,292
angle related angle to this which i think makes nostr such a good place for this so you mentioned

935
01:12:12,292 --> 01:12:15,512
Silicon Valley and the obsession with the network effect.

936
01:12:15,652 --> 01:12:19,712
And the thing is, every app that's built in Silicon Valley,

937
01:12:20,992 --> 01:12:22,632
I mean, just given the incentive structure,

938
01:12:22,772 --> 01:12:24,092
there has to be a walled garden.

939
01:12:24,352 --> 01:12:26,972
There is zero incentive to build open ecosystems.

940
01:12:26,972 --> 01:12:30,412
So the network has to be bootstrapped

941
01:12:30,412 --> 01:12:33,132
every time there's a new app idea.

942
01:12:34,372 --> 01:12:36,972
Anything that involves people using the app,

943
01:12:37,032 --> 01:12:38,352
they have to bootstrap the network.

944
01:12:39,612 --> 01:12:41,912
With Noster, there is an existing network.

945
01:12:41,912 --> 01:12:47,392
granted it's not you know we're not talking about millions of people maybe you know 10 20 000 active

946
01:12:47,392 --> 01:12:53,252
users uh but that's going to grow in its own way for other reasons right whether it's through

947
01:12:53,252 --> 01:13:01,792
fountain for music for podcast music or wave lake for music or um you know just you know amethyst

948
01:13:01,792 --> 01:13:07,372
primal dhamus for the social media use case and all sorts of other things that are coming up right

949
01:13:07,372 --> 01:13:09,532
the other stuff that people are building,

950
01:13:09,952 --> 01:13:11,572
the Noster network will grow,

951
01:13:11,672 --> 01:13:14,452
assuming all of those projects continue on their current trajectory

952
01:13:14,452 --> 01:13:15,892
and continue being successful.

953
01:13:16,252 --> 01:13:16,692
Absolutely.

954
01:13:17,172 --> 01:13:21,352
So you're automatically inheriting a network in some sense.

955
01:13:21,972 --> 01:13:22,172
Yeah.

956
01:13:22,892 --> 01:13:24,152
Yeah, you really are.

957
01:13:24,152 --> 01:13:29,452
And I don't think that, like, if I had posted either one of those videos on Twitter,

958
01:13:29,572 --> 01:13:31,012
I don't think they would have gotten any traction

959
01:13:31,012 --> 01:13:32,672
because people would be like, what the hell are you trying to do?

960
01:13:32,672 --> 01:13:39,092
but on Noster it's like people people kind of understand this alternate network effect so to

961
01:13:39,092 --> 01:13:45,772
speak um nicely and building communities from the ground up nicely and so it kind of resonates with

962
01:13:45,772 --> 01:13:52,672
with this place first um but yeah you're inheriting a network on all these things and the best part of

963
01:13:52,672 --> 01:13:59,052
this is imagining like you said where there's already a lot of drivers on on this because it's

964
01:13:59,052 --> 01:14:02,352
you know, a good incentive system for road flare and it builds out slowly.

965
01:14:02,992 --> 01:14:09,892
And then people, um, also can build other clients. I mean, ultimately right now,

966
01:14:09,892 --> 01:14:15,712
the competitors to Uber and Lyft are niche things like, Hey, I want my, I want my, um,

967
01:14:15,712 --> 01:14:21,452
driver to have a gun. So there's like a, there's like a bodyguard, uh, Uber called

968
01:14:21,452 --> 01:14:26,212
black wolf, I think it is. And they're like a little niche startup and stuff like that.

969
01:14:26,212 --> 01:14:31,992
they could build on the protocol of ride stir and drive stir and basically just ask users who

970
01:14:31,992 --> 01:14:37,552
already use that hey you have a gun if you want to like get drivers from our network or sorry if

971
01:14:37,552 --> 01:14:42,412
you want to get rides with people from our network and you have a gun then you know maybe you just

972
01:14:42,412 --> 01:14:48,652
check those boxes and now you can have both right so you get an incentive as as someone who already

973
01:14:48,652 --> 01:14:56,672
has rideshare clients to adopt a network of a lot of drivers and um there's other things like

974
01:14:56,672 --> 01:15:07,652
i know another nostor guy um his shad rack is his name he's building something yeah yeah he's

975
01:15:07,652 --> 01:15:16,592
building a to b which is like shipping and um and stuff like that and and if you have a pool of

976
01:15:16,592 --> 01:15:22,152
drivers that are already on drivester in the future and you've got those lists that you can

977
01:15:22,152 --> 01:15:26,552
mine from the users of like these are my favorite drivers in the town and these are the best drivers

978
01:15:26,552 --> 01:15:32,172
in the town now you could just send a nostril dm out to them theoretically and be like hey um

979
01:15:32,172 --> 01:15:39,492
if you want you can pick up this package you know on using the same protocols as as the

980
01:15:39,492 --> 01:15:45,332
underlying thing you can make a write offer basically to pick up a package and um and move

981
01:15:45,332 --> 01:15:50,012
it from point a to point b and then have that in a chain where maybe you know you're going from one

982
01:15:50,012 --> 01:15:56,552
city to the next on various different rides like chained together and you have now anonymous

983
01:15:56,552 --> 01:16:06,512
shipping or cypherpunk sort of shipping layer um which is fun to think about so i'm going to do

984
01:16:06,512 --> 01:16:13,272
something sterling that i've that's becoming a fairly common theme on the show uh and which is

985
01:16:13,272 --> 01:16:15,432
Shadrach, if you're listening

986
01:16:15,432 --> 01:16:17,532
and you haven't met Sterling yet,

987
01:16:17,632 --> 01:16:18,572
you guys should connect.

988
01:16:19,252 --> 01:16:21,712
We met through Darren,

989
01:16:21,992 --> 01:16:22,912
the guy who

990
01:16:22,912 --> 01:16:25,892
I was

991
01:16:25,892 --> 01:16:27,652
talking to when we figured out the bat

992
01:16:27,652 --> 01:16:29,752
signal idea was actually the road flare.

993
01:16:32,992 --> 01:16:35,312
The reason I even bring that up is I think

994
01:16:35,312 --> 01:16:37,612
the work that Shadrach and others, several

995
01:16:37,612 --> 01:16:39,552
others, are doing on the

996
01:16:39,552 --> 01:16:41,692
Meshdadal side, I think

997
01:16:41,692 --> 01:16:44,212
will fit very nicely with what you're doing, Sterling.

998
01:16:44,252 --> 01:16:45,612
If you don't know those guys,

999
01:16:46,612 --> 01:16:49,292
I'm happy to make that connection.

1000
01:16:50,552 --> 01:16:53,272
And Shadrach, again, I know I did this.

1001
01:16:53,892 --> 01:16:56,392
I think I keep doing this every alternate show

1002
01:16:56,392 --> 01:16:57,552
where your name comes up

1003
01:16:57,552 --> 01:16:59,952
because you're involved in everything, it seems.

1004
01:17:00,612 --> 01:17:02,372
And I make the connection.

1005
01:17:02,752 --> 01:17:05,312
So obviously you guys are connected,

1006
01:17:05,552 --> 01:17:07,852
but there's more than just A to B, right?

1007
01:17:07,912 --> 01:17:09,332
There's the whole Mesh to Del stuff

1008
01:17:09,332 --> 01:17:15,392
and all sorts of other things that Shadrach and several others are involved in.

1009
01:17:16,192 --> 01:17:17,692
Yeah, it's awesome.

1010
01:17:17,832 --> 01:17:20,992
And I think it all comes together in the future for sure.

1011
01:17:22,032 --> 01:17:25,332
And it makes me really excited.

1012
01:17:25,332 --> 01:17:32,272
I mean, I've kind of made some shitposts on Notster about how, like, you know,

1013
01:17:32,352 --> 01:17:38,772
if this actually starts to work and there's a ton of drivers riding on that network,

1014
01:17:38,772 --> 01:17:41,952
then maybe like we can make little pay phones that you should,

1015
01:17:42,052 --> 01:17:43,632
you could just pick up the phone and say, you know,

1016
01:17:43,652 --> 01:17:46,912
I need an exit like the matrix and,

1017
01:17:46,912 --> 01:17:49,692
and then like have a car pull up from,

1018
01:17:49,692 --> 01:17:53,552
from nearby to, to make that exit. But you know, it's,

1019
01:17:53,792 --> 01:17:56,092
it's fun to imagine like what, because these are so,

1020
01:17:56,172 --> 01:17:59,012
so open protocol, you know, based,

1021
01:17:59,672 --> 01:18:04,132
you can really make them interact with the real world in a lot of different

1022
01:18:04,132 --> 01:18:07,092
ways. So I don't know. It gets fun.

1023
01:18:07,092 --> 01:18:13,792
for sure all right so let's talk about payments for a second if i remember correctly from your

1024
01:18:13,792 --> 01:18:20,432
and you posted about this as well i think you you're using cashew and nip 60 instead of lightning

1025
01:18:20,432 --> 01:18:26,952
is that correct yes i'm using cashew and nip 60 it is going over lightning if if you happen to use

1026
01:18:26,952 --> 01:18:35,392
two different mints um and but as as it as you onboard in the app the default mint i recommend

1027
01:18:35,392 --> 01:18:42,452
as many bits because it seems to be a reliable player in the space but it lets you add custom

1028
01:18:42,452 --> 01:18:49,472
mints and if you do add custom mints then it um has to make a successful payment bridge between

1029
01:18:49,472 --> 01:18:58,632
those two or it alerts the driver basically uh that that couldn't happen but was that just a

1030
01:18:58,632 --> 01:19:03,292
like was there a technical reason you didn't go with raw lightning and went i mean cash is great

1031
01:19:03,292 --> 01:19:10,392
but i'm just curious there was a technical reason and it's really because i wanted it to be

1032
01:19:10,392 --> 01:19:16,892
i wanted it to be like easy to use your own festival implementation so i really wanted to

1033
01:19:16,892 --> 01:19:24,572
do nostril wallet connect originally um but i realized that the only people who had htlc

1034
01:19:24,572 --> 01:19:32,372
functionality in Nostra Wallet Connect, so using HODL invoices, is Albi.

1035
01:19:33,032 --> 01:19:49,060
And while majority of people using Nostra Wallet Connect might be on Albi I would say that I wanted people people like who use zeus and who use other nostril wallet connects uh wallets to not understand like they have to understand why it not working

1036
01:19:49,060 --> 01:19:57,140
if if the htlc thing happens and as of right now like there's only one um implementation of

1037
01:19:57,140 --> 01:20:04,720
sort of escrow payments via nostril wallet connect so so that was my original thought was to do

1038
01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:11,140
nostrilout connect but then that became uh like unfeasible if i wanted to have some sort of escrow

1039
01:20:11,140 --> 01:20:19,260
that unlocks feature and i i thought about raw lightning as well but the thing with that is

1040
01:20:19,260 --> 01:20:25,560
i just couldn't imagine myself building a reliable lightning node into the app or it's like

1041
01:20:25,560 --> 01:20:33,520
you know like uh it's just you know channel management and back end stuff i just didn't

1042
01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:40,300
want to deal with it and i'm also a very new new developer and i i looked at all the different

1043
01:20:40,300 --> 01:20:46,960
you know payment methods that people use in bitcoin and what seems to be the most

1044
01:20:46,960 --> 01:20:54,920
quickly spun up like new wallets are these cashew wallets i mean right right when cashew came out

1045
01:20:54,920 --> 01:21:00,340
there was like cashew.me then nutstash and then and then minibits and then there was like 10

1046
01:21:00,340 --> 01:21:08,160
wallet integrations with cashew within i don't know it was like a month or two of that starting

1047
01:21:08,160 --> 01:21:17,280
up it seemed very easy to integrate in the beginning so um you know i i started out with

1048
01:21:17,280 --> 01:21:21,400
that because i was like you know i'm vibe coding a lot of this i don't want people to use or to

1049
01:21:21,400 --> 01:21:28,320
lose user funds or anything so like ideally i have somebody who's reputable as my default mint

1050
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:31,800
and make sure that cash you works under the hood

1051
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:36,260
and hopefully it all goes well.

1052
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:39,560
I also don't want the liability of custodying funds myself,

1053
01:21:39,820 --> 01:21:40,660
which would be like,

1054
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:43,760
if I wanted to make it as seamless as possible,

1055
01:21:44,340 --> 01:21:45,520
that's probably a way I could do it.

1056
01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:47,280
But I'm also like, I don't want to do that

1057
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:48,720
because it's dangerous.

1058
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:52,640
You're building a ride sharing app.

1059
01:21:53,700 --> 01:21:55,440
Why don't get into custody?

1060
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:56,420
Makes complete sense.

1061
01:21:56,420 --> 01:21:56,780
No, no.

1062
01:21:56,780 --> 01:22:07,040
So yeah, especially if it's decentralized, you don't want to be liable for everybody's issues if something goes wrong on that.

1063
01:22:07,240 --> 01:22:08,040
So I don't know.

1064
01:22:08,120 --> 01:22:11,880
I don't want to get sued by Uber and Lyft because I'm a transportation network company.

1065
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:19,760
I want to build something that's a peer protocol and a peer-to-peer messaging app essentially that just happens to connect peers.

1066
01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:22,300
And I'm not a transportation network company.

1067
01:22:22,860 --> 01:22:23,960
I'm not building that.

1068
01:22:23,960 --> 01:22:32,680
i am building an app for me the driver to use to connect with people later so um you know i i

1069
01:22:32,680 --> 01:22:39,720
i think it's very like it's a very different game if you start building a literal uber and lyft

1070
01:22:39,720 --> 01:22:47,360
competitor company than building a protocol that hopefully uh benefits the riders and drivers right

1071
01:22:47,360 --> 01:22:54,440
way so so you know that makes complete sense sterling uh so you're not a dev you've said that

1072
01:22:54,440 --> 01:22:59,400
you you're vibe coding a lot of this but this is so how long have you been doing this because

1073
01:22:59,400 --> 01:23:05,200
these are not simple things to wrap your arms around right like figuring out the distinction

1074
01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:10,200
the technical distinction between cashew and lightning in in this specific context why one's

1075
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:16,100
better and everything else you've talked about even the right nosta nips to use to broadcast these

1076
01:23:16,100 --> 01:23:22,980
events the right uh you're using the nip 44 dms right all of i mean this couldn't have been easy

1077
01:23:22,980 --> 01:23:30,240
and this couldn't have been quick so what's interesting about me is i've been around bitcoin

1078
01:23:30,240 --> 01:23:39,700
trying to make products better from the sidelines for a very long time so uh i think around 2019

1079
01:23:39,700 --> 01:23:48,140
2020 like i was creating feature bounties for blue wallet um under the nim of god says hodl

1080
01:23:48,140 --> 01:23:55,380
i was making like i made a bounty for the ability to connect to your own node with a qr for instance

1081
01:23:55,380 --> 01:24:03,100
and i made a bounty for the tor implementation uh for blue wallet and then as i as blue wallet kind

1082
01:24:03,100 --> 01:24:08,160
of you know is a perfect product in itself that just kind of stuck around like but it hasn't

1083
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:14,500
changed much in a while i started sort of suggesting features to evan at zeus like i said

1084
01:24:14,500 --> 01:24:20,220
that little paste button up in the top right um whenever you have a lightning invoice in your copy

1085
01:24:20,220 --> 01:24:25,280
clipboard that that little paste button that pops up that was just a simple suggestion to evan

1086
01:24:25,280 --> 01:24:32,820
so i've been following lightning and wallets and everything very closely because i use this stuff

1087
01:24:32,820 --> 01:24:39,840
every day. And that's one of the reasons why if you look at my profile, it says my title is

1088
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:46,760
chief power user of Bitcoin and Noster. Because all I've been doing, I'd like to try new things.

1089
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:55,080
I like to try everything new in terms of the best wallet functionality and find the absolute best

1090
01:24:55,080 --> 01:25:00,260
because I used to orange pill people a ton. I used to go around trying to onboard people.

1091
01:25:00,260 --> 01:25:06,080
And I was like, how do I get this less friction when I'm doing this to people?

1092
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:13,300
And so like I would make little suggestions here and there and I would be following the back ends closely to figure out how it works.

1093
01:25:13,580 --> 01:25:15,640
But the thing is, I cannot code.

1094
01:25:16,100 --> 01:25:20,440
I tried to learn coding for a year straight around 2017.

1095
01:25:22,100 --> 01:25:26,000
I spent a year really hacking into coding.

1096
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:30,640
I was a UI developer for Windows apps, like Windows.

1097
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:33,620
They don't even really exist anymore.

1098
01:25:33,720 --> 01:25:37,220
Universal Windows applications, UWA.

1099
01:25:37,580 --> 01:25:41,140
And I spent a year learning that before they shut down Windows Phone.

1100
01:25:41,580 --> 01:25:45,020
And then I was like, I'm just going to stop trying to do this.

1101
01:25:45,560 --> 01:25:50,940
And so then I tried to learn coding again around like 2021, 2022,

1102
01:25:51,280 --> 01:25:52,500
trying to get into Bitcoin stuff.

1103
01:25:52,500 --> 01:26:00,620
but it's just like it's so so much headache to actually write the code um whereas i know the

1104
01:26:00,620 --> 01:26:06,380
things that are happening under the hood very well i know how they work i don't know how to

1105
01:26:06,380 --> 01:26:13,120
write the code to make them work that way if it makes sense so um i you know i've been i love

1106
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:20,100
talking to all the developers around stuff um evan and ben the carmen and everybody like when i talk

1107
01:26:20,100 --> 01:26:24,700
to developers i always have a good time uh like talking about theorizing better features and

1108
01:26:24,700 --> 01:26:31,580
theorizing things we could we could do um but i've never been a builder really until

1109
01:26:31,580 --> 01:26:37,780
uh vibe coding became a thing so i tried to make ridester and drivester

1110
01:26:37,780 --> 01:26:49,760
um initially in march of 2025 so a little less than a year ago and i tried to make it and it just

1111
01:26:49,760 --> 01:26:56,300
didn't work out um the the vibe coding wasn't there yet i i made a lot of the ui elements

1112
01:26:56,300 --> 01:27:02,620
but i couldn't get things like cashew or especially the routing engine the ability to

1113
01:27:02,620 --> 01:27:09,460
route locally in the background of a phone like that stuff was nearly impossible to implement

1114
01:27:09,460 --> 01:27:18,620
without having a development background um whereas now with clod code i am able to do the stuff

1115
01:27:18,620 --> 01:27:23,940
that I want to do without knowing how to write the code now.

1116
01:27:24,580 --> 01:27:26,940
So it's really evolved in the last two months.

1117
01:27:28,440 --> 01:27:31,740
And as soon as I realized everybody on Twitter was talking about it,

1118
01:27:31,740 --> 01:27:33,180
I was like, I'm going to give it another shot.

1119
01:27:34,080 --> 01:27:36,560
And about almost one month ago,

1120
01:27:36,940 --> 01:27:42,360
exactly, I started trying to develop Rydester and Drivestre

1121
01:27:42,360 --> 01:27:43,220
from the ground up.

1122
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:45,960
And the first thing I implemented with the routing engine,

1123
01:27:46,060 --> 01:27:48,180
as soon as that worked, I was like, holy shit.

1124
01:27:48,620 --> 01:27:49,340
We could do it.

1125
01:27:49,900 --> 01:27:51,540
We could do it because the Noster and stuff,

1126
01:27:52,240 --> 01:27:54,600
the Noster events and stuff, they're so simple

1127
01:27:54,600 --> 01:27:59,680
that that stuff's a lot easier to integrate to an app

1128
01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:03,940
than a lot of other protocols and stuff would be.

1129
01:28:04,100 --> 01:28:06,720
The routing engine, having to compile a routing engine

1130
01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:09,380
for mobile use is no joke.

1131
01:28:09,600 --> 01:28:13,800
And I'm still struggling with the progressive web app side of things

1132
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:21,580
because one thing I'm learning is progressive web apps have major limitations in storage.

1133
01:28:22,580 --> 01:28:28,440
So if you're trying to store a routing tile to do local routing in a window,

1134
01:28:28,680 --> 01:28:29,920
it's almost impossible.

1135
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:34,880
So there's still a lot of hard problems to solve on the horizon

1136
01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:37,120
if I want to get it into a progressive web app.

1137
01:28:37,620 --> 01:28:40,260
But as of now, I'm trying to finish up the Android side of things,

1138
01:28:40,260 --> 01:28:44,080
get these apps running with Roadflare in them and get them released.

1139
01:28:46,380 --> 01:28:51,720
You know, the other thing, and I feel your pain on Vibe coding tools,

1140
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:54,840
especially if you're trying to do anything NOST-related about a year ago.

1141
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:59,780
And I was trying to do it on Replet, and the libraries just weren't there,

1142
01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:02,180
and it was hard.

1143
01:29:04,280 --> 01:29:08,400
Now, Shakespeare's actually made things on the NOST side specifically, right?

1144
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:09,900
I'm sure you could use Cloud Code.

1145
01:29:10,260 --> 01:29:12,340
for just general stuff.

1146
01:29:12,420 --> 01:29:13,520
But especially on the Noster side,

1147
01:29:13,640 --> 01:29:16,240
I think they have the Nosterbook MCP

1148
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:19,140
that powers MKStack.

1149
01:29:19,260 --> 01:29:23,980
So it just made building Noster apps really simple.

1150
01:29:24,060 --> 01:29:25,440
And even if you have a custom NIP

1151
01:29:25,440 --> 01:29:26,440
that you're trying to implement,

1152
01:29:26,620 --> 01:29:29,820
all you have to do is paste the Nader into Shakespeare

1153
01:29:29,820 --> 01:29:32,380
and it figures out what needs to happen.

1154
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:36,300
Yeah, and what I was doing constantly is

1155
01:29:36,300 --> 01:29:38,660
before I would implement any feature,

1156
01:29:38,660 --> 01:29:48,460
I would look up open source apps that have implemented the same feature and give them the cloud code as a reference and give them the documentation as a reference also.

1157
01:29:48,660 --> 01:29:49,980
And it would reference all three of those things.

1158
01:29:50,140 --> 01:29:52,780
And usually it would one shot the feature.

1159
01:29:53,340 --> 01:29:57,360
So like, and that's been pretty amazing.

1160
01:29:57,500 --> 01:29:59,600
In the beginning of the app, it would one shot a lot of the features.

1161
01:29:59,740 --> 01:30:06,400
As the code base has grown, it's obviously getting harder to do that because they have so many things that they're connecting to in the background.

1162
01:30:06,400 --> 01:30:13,660
and um it's definitely not easy anymore uh it was easy to get that initial prototype working but

1163
01:30:13,660 --> 01:30:20,300
i've started you know as i test it more and more i am realizing there's like dangerous areas of the

1164
01:30:20,300 --> 01:30:27,060
app to navigate like with refunds uh where the driver cancels or whatever like a lot of these

1165
01:30:27,060 --> 01:30:34,700
cashew things have not worked out as planned so i've like been hot fixing uh like that to make

1166
01:30:34,700 --> 01:30:41,660
sure that nobody loses funds so it is it's not easy to implement you have to do a lot of testing

1167
01:30:41,660 --> 01:30:50,080
but um it is doable if you have the time and it's amazing that that's happened because

1168
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:58,060
i really have felt like i have an engineering mindset in in how i want these apps to work but

1169
01:30:58,060 --> 01:31:04,460
i've just i don't know what it is about me not being able to learn how to code but it's been

1170
01:31:04,460 --> 01:31:07,160
the main blocker.

1171
01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:10,220
Well, you found the tool that works for you, right?

1172
01:31:10,780 --> 01:31:11,040
Yes.

1173
01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:13,680
But, you know, the one-shotting features,

1174
01:31:13,920 --> 01:31:16,940
this is just so, such a classic

1175
01:31:16,940 --> 01:31:19,360
vibe-coding thing where, you know,

1176
01:31:19,660 --> 01:31:22,400
you go in there and especially if you write a good prompt

1177
01:31:22,400 --> 01:31:24,440
and using something like Cloud Opus,

1178
01:31:24,660 --> 01:31:25,820
even Sonnet sometimes,

1179
01:31:27,420 --> 01:31:29,880
$1 or maximum $2,

1180
01:31:29,880 --> 01:31:31,880
you have 80% of the app done.

1181
01:31:31,880 --> 01:31:35,120
then to get from 80 to 95 percent is $200

1182
01:31:35,120 --> 01:31:38,160
because it's just the code base has gotten more complicated

1183
01:31:38,160 --> 01:31:52,348
and you adding these little things the long tail is what starts burning through those AI credits Yeah the Claude code is made that simple because the a month thing is absolutely worth every penny

1184
01:31:52,348 --> 01:32:00,448
i mean i i literally one of the things that's been so amazing about it is like while i have

1185
01:32:00,448 --> 01:32:08,668
you know claude working in the background chugging away at like a bug fix or a new feature or refactor

1186
01:32:08,668 --> 01:32:14,988
of like making things more efficient while that's happening i can open up another quad code window

1187
01:32:14,988 --> 01:32:20,488
and like do something that i've been putting on the back burner for like months like oh yeah i

1188
01:32:20,488 --> 01:32:25,648
need to calculate my cost basis for the taxes for the last two years because i don't have any

1189
01:32:25,648 --> 01:32:32,028
freaking clue like quad code's just doing it in the in the background like two minutes flat it'll

1190
01:32:32,028 --> 01:32:39,348
take three csv files filled with transactions and then calculate a cost basis that would have cost

1191
01:32:39,348 --> 01:32:44,328
me like eight hundred dollars with a cpa and i probably wouldn't have trusted them as much on

1192
01:32:44,328 --> 01:32:50,388
the result is this a new thing with cloud code it's 200 bucks and then you get unlimited token

1193
01:32:50,388 --> 01:32:57,608
it's nearly unlimited it's not unlimited um one thing that's that's said about it is you get the

1194
01:32:57,608 --> 01:33:06,408
subscription to use cloud code natively like in your cli uh like terminal but it doesn't give you

1195
01:33:06,408 --> 01:33:12,028
unlimited api access and you don't want to connect your subscription to other products via the api

1196
01:33:12,028 --> 01:33:18,348
because they really don't like that and they'll actually ban your account um so it's been kind of

1197
01:33:18,348 --> 01:33:24,568
weird with that they they clearly want people to use quad code itself and not api so that if you

1198
01:33:24,568 --> 01:33:31,168
get the direct api cost of doing this you're basically getting a hundred times more cost

1199
01:33:31,168 --> 01:33:36,848
than using the subscription so there is a weekly limit to subscription use but i have not hit it

1200
01:33:36,848 --> 01:33:43,328
yet and i've been doing this 24 7 so i wake up in the morning and i vibe code till i go to sleep

1201
01:33:43,328 --> 01:33:51,408
pretty much um with a little bit of like you know kids and wife um in the background but

1202
01:33:51,408 --> 01:33:58,108
like i i have claude code running pretty much 24 7 and i don't hit those limits with the 200 max

1203
01:33:58,108 --> 01:34:05,788
subscription so and can you switch to like between models to opus and and sonnet or whatever or does

1204
01:34:05,788 --> 01:34:13,908
it yes you can but i keep it on opus all the time so opus is the most effective and and i've just

1205
01:34:13,908 --> 01:34:19,308
been 100 opus all the time and now i've even figured out that if i want to throw more compute

1206
01:34:19,308 --> 01:34:25,968
at a problem um i can tell it in the prompt to use sub agents and that will just like spin up

1207
01:34:25,968 --> 01:34:34,148
like multiple sub agents to review more so i've been actually like i've been increasing the

1208
01:34:34,148 --> 01:34:40,628
accuracy of how it codes um by doing that and increasing the planning effectiveness

1209
01:34:40,628 --> 01:34:49,248
i've also just started using codex um from chat gbt i don't pay for the subscription but i'm on

1210
01:34:49,248 --> 01:34:58,728
like a trial subscription um and i use that to review the plans that claude makes and so

1211
01:34:58,728 --> 01:35:03,848
from people who are engineers on twitter they're saying that codex is better at like

1212
01:35:03,848 --> 01:35:10,228
the actual code but not better at navigating a code base or or planning so i've been kind of

1213
01:35:10,228 --> 01:35:16,048
using both and having them review it's really slowed down my effectiveness at shipping bug

1214
01:35:16,048 --> 01:35:24,728
fixes and features but it's probably increased the accuracy of all of them so i i can't wait until

1215
01:35:24,728 --> 01:35:30,388
um i can run this type of stuff locally and have the same sort of effectiveness as an opus

1216
01:35:30,388 --> 01:35:34,808
but as of right now it's worth every penny of $200 a month for me.

1217
01:35:36,088 --> 01:35:36,608
Nice.

1218
01:35:37,108 --> 01:35:39,628
I think that's where this thing is moving, right?

1219
01:35:39,688 --> 01:35:44,688
Which is it's not going to be just one AI thing you're using.

1220
01:35:44,868 --> 01:35:48,288
You'll use Gemini to generate a clean prompt, right?

1221
01:35:48,488 --> 01:35:51,108
You'll bang in your product idea.

1222
01:35:51,828 --> 01:35:53,468
Gemini will actually structure the prompt.

1223
01:35:53,468 --> 01:35:56,208
Then you send that over to Cloud Code

1224
01:35:56,208 --> 01:36:01,408
and then you have the chat GPT one review it,

1225
01:36:01,468 --> 01:36:03,028
Codex review it.

1226
01:36:03,428 --> 01:36:03,628
Yep.

1227
01:36:03,968 --> 01:36:04,408
Yeah.

1228
01:36:05,048 --> 01:36:05,488
Cool.

1229
01:36:05,588 --> 01:36:07,108
Yeah, it's using a lot of different things.

1230
01:36:07,228 --> 01:36:09,688
I use Grok for a lot of the research on like,

1231
01:36:09,768 --> 01:36:13,388
hey, like which open source projects are doing this, this, and this.

1232
01:36:13,548 --> 01:36:16,988
And it will like, you know, find me a good research bundle,

1233
01:36:17,128 --> 01:36:17,808
a bunch of projects.

1234
01:36:17,968 --> 01:36:21,648
And then, you know, that's how I've researched some of the stuff

1235
01:36:21,648 --> 01:36:23,388
I didn't know, like routing engines and whatnot,

1236
01:36:23,388 --> 01:36:24,468
was through Grok too.

1237
01:36:24,468 --> 01:36:35,128
cool so one more question um sterling which is right now we're talking about android are you

1238
01:36:35,128 --> 01:36:41,208
thinking about apple for ride star and drive star and if so i mean what's going to happen

1239
01:36:41,208 --> 01:36:49,608
the 30 cut all of that nonsense that you have to deal with with apple um i want apple i mean i want

1240
01:36:49,608 --> 01:36:55,168
to be on ios too i unfortunately don't have a mac which is almost a requirement for developing on

1241
01:36:55,168 --> 01:37:04,088
apple but uh because i've if i want to fully port everything i feel like it is i plan on making an

1242
01:37:04,088 --> 01:37:12,688
ios version of this i don't know how they will view the 30 cut thing but i'm not taking any

1243
01:37:12,688 --> 01:37:22,528
money from the users so i don't know how that works honestly um i i also don't know if they'll

1244
01:37:22,528 --> 01:37:30,108
accept my license that i'm using for my project which is mit no shit coins um custom license

1245
01:37:30,108 --> 01:37:37,628
so they they tend to not like copy left licenses or anything like that on the project so we'll see

1246
01:37:37,628 --> 01:37:43,588
what happens but um i do want to build on ios i just don't know the timeline because with the dip

1247
01:37:43,588 --> 01:37:51,308
right now i do have to get back to driving uber and lyft soon and um so most likely i'm going to

1248
01:37:51,308 --> 01:37:58,268
finish road flare integration i'm gonna uh fix a lot of the bugs on android side and i'm gonna

1249
01:37:58,268 --> 01:38:04,348
launch it as it is on android and start going back to work and using it um but

1250
01:38:04,348 --> 01:38:15,008
I might even just hire people to port it to iOS in the long term because

1251
01:38:15,008 --> 01:38:21,208
I know I could do it, but I need to buy a Mac or do something equivalent.

1252
01:38:21,968 --> 01:38:28,588
And also, it just feels like I don't have a lot of time if I'm living life in the dip,

1253
01:38:28,588 --> 01:38:29,588
if that makes sense.

1254
01:38:30,908 --> 01:38:31,008
Yeah.

1255
01:38:31,008 --> 01:38:33,568
because all of this time that I'm spending

1256
01:38:33,568 --> 01:38:35,748
Vibe Coding is time away from like actually

1257
01:38:35,748 --> 01:38:37,388
saving my sats

1258
01:38:37,388 --> 01:38:37,928
so

1259
01:38:37,928 --> 01:38:41,568
I feel your pain

1260
01:38:41,568 --> 01:38:42,108
my friend

1261
01:38:42,108 --> 01:38:47,828
alright and actually last question

1262
01:38:47,828 --> 01:38:53,568
I mean I know you said you're building this out

1263
01:38:53,568 --> 01:38:55,068
as a protocol but Rydester

1264
01:38:55,068 --> 01:38:57,328
is a protocol but it's also an app as is

1265
01:38:57,328 --> 01:38:57,928
Drivestore

1266
01:38:57,928 --> 01:39:04,348
any concerns that if this gets big enough that uber and lyft are going to come after you

1267
01:39:04,348 --> 01:39:12,728
i'm kind of accepting that uh the more publicly successful this gets the more likely i get banned

1268
01:39:12,728 --> 01:39:17,748
from uber and lyft so it's sort of one of these things where it's like okay i'll be the martyr

1269
01:39:17,748 --> 01:39:23,588
but they're not going to really be able to ban it working if it makes sense especially if i make

1270
01:39:23,588 --> 01:39:32,608
the progressive web app it'll be really hard for them to ban it so um long term i think

1271
01:39:32,608 --> 01:39:37,788
you know i might be sacrificing my own income and have to go back to the real world of fiat

1272
01:39:37,788 --> 01:39:44,088
mining through a regular job but i think it'll be worth it for the other drivers and riders

1273
01:39:44,088 --> 01:39:52,248
regardless so that's sort of the plan i'm in it for the revolution if that makes sense

1274
01:39:52,248 --> 01:39:53,708
amen

1275
01:39:53,708 --> 01:39:56,828
amen to that

1276
01:39:56,828 --> 01:39:59,188
alright Sterling anything else

1277
01:39:59,188 --> 01:40:00,888
you want to plug other than

1278
01:40:00,888 --> 01:40:02,088
Rydester and Drivestor

1279
01:40:02,088 --> 01:40:04,268
how can people help you

1280
01:40:04,268 --> 01:40:07,028
how can we make this successful

1281
01:40:07,028 --> 01:40:08,908
what can people do

1282
01:40:08,908 --> 01:40:10,828
that you don't have the bandwidth to do right now

1283
01:40:10,828 --> 01:40:13,088
man if you are

1284
01:40:13,088 --> 01:40:15,068
a developer out there and you

1285
01:40:15,068 --> 01:40:15,888
are good at

1286
01:40:15,888 --> 01:40:17,808
or

1287
01:40:17,808 --> 01:40:20,728
things of that nature

1288
01:40:20,728 --> 01:40:24,988
or just notification layers or anything from Android development.

1289
01:40:25,328 --> 01:40:28,928
Like, truly, I could use extra eyes on the project.

1290
01:40:28,928 --> 01:40:33,828
I could use extra bug fix help and extra testing help.

1291
01:40:34,208 --> 01:40:35,928
I don't want people to lose funds,

1292
01:40:36,148 --> 01:40:40,428
and I have done nothing but bug fixes in the last three days

1293
01:40:40,428 --> 01:40:43,148
just trying to get a big patch ready.

1294
01:40:43,728 --> 01:40:46,068
And so the more eyes, the better.

1295
01:40:46,308 --> 01:40:49,948
And if you are an iOS developer, you have familiarity with that

1296
01:40:49,948 --> 01:40:52,268
or a progressive web app genius,

1297
01:40:53,108 --> 01:40:56,528
then definitely need more people on board

1298
01:40:56,528 --> 01:40:58,328
for those implementations.

1299
01:40:58,748 --> 01:41:03,408
Ultimately, I will probably stop myself for a while

1300
01:41:03,408 --> 01:41:07,388
after the Android's done to get back to work.

1301
01:41:07,568 --> 01:41:09,348
So the more help, the more eyes,

1302
01:41:09,428 --> 01:41:10,568
the more developers, the better.

1303
01:41:12,248 --> 01:41:13,708
You heard it here, folks.

1304
01:41:13,708 --> 01:41:16,168
If you can help Sterling, if you're a developer,

1305
01:41:16,788 --> 01:41:18,788
please do step up.

1306
01:41:18,788 --> 01:41:23,228
This is an amazing project and really hope this is successful.

1307
01:41:23,948 --> 01:41:25,068
Sterling, thank you for your time.

1308
01:41:25,188 --> 01:41:28,848
Thank you for educating me and the audience on this.

1309
01:41:29,688 --> 01:41:30,708
And really, I mean it.

1310
01:41:30,748 --> 01:41:32,228
I think this is a super exciting project.

1311
01:41:32,628 --> 01:41:36,108
I'm rooting for you and I hope it's successful.

1312
01:41:36,108 --> 01:41:45,228
It's going to make not just being a consumer, as it would be in my case, a rider, a whole lot easier and more pleasant.

1313
01:41:45,228 --> 01:41:55,128
And it would have a knock-on effect on increasing the network effect of Nostra as well, make this a bigger and better place.

1314
01:41:55,628 --> 01:42:09,608
Yeah, I think ultimately the more that this is successful also, the less drivers will be online on Lyft and Uber and the prices of – or the amount of money that drivers will make will go up naturally.

1315
01:42:09,608 --> 01:42:16,368
So maybe the knock-on effect spread out naturally to the behemoths too.

1316
01:42:17,968 --> 01:42:20,788
But yeah, thanks so much for having me on, Avi.

1317
01:42:21,888 --> 01:42:22,448
Absolutely.

1318
01:42:23,268 --> 01:42:26,568
And thank you to our live stream audience for listening.

1319
01:42:27,268 --> 01:42:32,848
If you are listening to the recording, as always, notice what you didn't hear today.

1320
01:42:33,228 --> 01:42:36,108
You didn't hear me shilling a mattress you don't need.

1321
01:42:36,108 --> 01:42:42,088
You didn't hear me reading a script for a VPN that's probably logging your data anyway

1322
01:42:42,088 --> 01:42:44,108
I don't do that here

1323
01:42:44,108 --> 01:42:48,868
On the lightning-laced airwaves, the only sponsor is you

1324
01:42:48,868 --> 01:42:51,888
If you found value in this conversation

1325
01:42:51,888 --> 01:42:58,088
If it gave you a new mental model, a moment of clarity, or just respite from the noise

1326
01:42:58,088 --> 01:43:00,808
Then please consider returning the value

1327
01:43:00,808 --> 01:43:03,928
You can stream sats as you listen on Fountain

1328
01:43:03,928 --> 01:43:06,068
or you can become a monthly subscriber

1329
01:43:06,068 --> 01:43:07,928
to keep the signal strong.

1330
01:43:08,508 --> 01:43:10,808
But for those of you who want to shape the show,

1331
01:43:11,448 --> 01:43:12,408
you can boost in.

1332
01:43:13,368 --> 01:43:15,208
The mic is open for next week.

1333
01:43:15,728 --> 01:43:17,468
If you want the final word

1334
01:43:17,468 --> 01:43:20,228
or if you want the executive producer slot

1335
01:43:20,228 --> 01:43:21,948
with your dissenting sats,

1336
01:43:22,668 --> 01:43:24,248
the board is yours.

1337
01:43:25,048 --> 01:43:25,688
Until then,

1338
01:43:26,528 --> 01:43:27,228
stay sovereign.

1339
01:43:33,928 --> 01:43:48,208
Transcription by CastingWords