Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses
on the intersection of NOSTER and Bitcoin protocols.
Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current
thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,
doers, and plebs.
All right, we are live.
Welcome, gentle plebs, to the Lightning Laced Airwaves. Today is Friday the 29th of August and it is episode 127 of Plep Chain Radio, 104pm on the east coast of the United States at the time of recording.
We have a fun show ahead of you today. Dan Gershoni, creator of Angor, the Bitcoin and Noster-based crowdfunding platform joins us to talk about that and much more.
and a reminder folks if you are listening to the show on apple or spotify first of all thank you
for listening but i would urge you to hit pause and switch over to the fountain podcasting app
where you can earn some sats and support the value for value revolution while you listen
this show is streamed live on zap.stream and any other nosta client that supports streaming a
Burgeoning List, QW.
Clients such as Amethyst and Noster, the regulars.
Fountain, a recent addition.
And I believe, as of today, the Primal app as well.
And QW, you've been paying attention.
Is it really streaming live, Avi?
I would like to believe that, yes.
Because it seems like, you know, we've had that show with Curin
And it seems like the DDoS attacks continue on, I believe, because, you know, it doesn't seem like we're streaming out right now.
And that kind of brings me to a question in my mind.
Are we putting too much on the backs of Zap.Stream?
And Zap.Stream can obviously, like we talked with Kieran about, you can run your own instance of it, right?
You can actually self-host.
I wonder how that interacts, how that does with all those Amethyst, Noster, Fountain, Primal, all the aboves that would be streaming it live.
Because it seems like we do seem to hit a bottleneck on Zap.Stream.
And I wonder if it's just a server thing, if you need to unleash the server, or if it's just the popularity clearly is going to get bigger and bigger, right?
So it's something where it's like, well, we have some Nostra issues, but that's okay.
That's what we're doing.
It's brand new.
We're all testing it.
Another thing with Nostra, well, anything to add to that, Avi, as far as the primal?
Because it's a huge launch, but I guess my question is, is App.Stream ready for that launch?
Yeah.
I mean, just going back to something you said about the Kieran episode, where he told us that we can now run custom versions of ZapDot stream.
In theory, it's all NIP 53 events, so it should work.
Yeah, and I wonder if they handshake just like everybody else.
It's curious.
I did see that Million posted, put a note that, you know, he does recommend Zap.Stream.
That was probably about 30 minutes ago.
So it seems like that's the first step for anybody trying it out.
But with the week-long, two-week-long, three-week-long attack that Kieran was getting on a server getting overran, it's something that we can do more.
We can do more.
Um, then, then so, but, but I do, I do not want to take away from the, the, the huge breaking, uh, primal.
Uh, it's, I, in my opinion, the most widely used, the most polished, uh, Nostra client, um, along with fountain, I would say, um, those are the two most widely used.
Um, fountain obviously would be in a different genre, more of, uh, the podcasting, making podcasting social.
But I think those two are major ones.
You know, Amethyst is Android-based.
Nostr is iOS-based.
So those cross-platforms is kind of a big deal user-wise.
So, yeah, kudos to the Primal team.
Looking forward to seeing the full features in effect.
We did see that video.
Alvi, you shared that video of it in actual action.
And it looks awesome.
So it's exactly what, you know, kind of what we've always been looking for.
And we love to see the live user interactions, the live users apping, everybody using Nostre, making our live stream social, right?
Yeah, for sure, QW.
And you have been paying attention to Bitcoin and Nostre culture.
Yeah.
So the primal thing was this morning.
That was a big deal.
But culture corner, more vlogs, more vlogs.
And we call them V-logs, Avi.
The Nostriges call them V-logs.
So we always got to make it ours.
I did see something, and I touched on it last week where we talked about the data, the data consumption, and how the V-logs might be adding to that.
Korn did a test yesterday.
He ran Primal, TikTok, and NoStir for 20 minutes apiece.
So he just did standard use for 20 minutes.
Primal came in number one at 524 megabytes of use in 20 minutes.
TikTok came in at 111 megabytes of use in 20 minutes.
And NoStir has 69.4 megabytes of use in 20 minutes.
That's a big difference.
And I think ultimately what we're going to find over time is we need to do something about that.
And the question is, how do you do it?
So it's not a topic of today.
It's something we need to think about, but that's an interesting one.
Another thing, BitChats.
They had the update.
I actually made a hashtag.
I made a room, PHX.
I was chatting it up.
Kali had a 9Q, I believe, was the room.
You just do hashtag.
Then you put this, whatever it is, let's say 9Q, and then you press teleport.
And all of a sudden, you're in a chat group with however many people across the globe.
So it has expanded from just your typical Bitcoin meetup, Bluetooth.
Now the GeoHash or whatever is expanding and you can kind of jump around globally.
So it's just what else is going to come.
They're looking for developers to continue pushing this.
It seems like there's some momentum.
It's just kind of neat.
It's an interesting interface because it's so basic.
But there are also problems with it, just like anything.
I mean, we're essentially, you know, it might be in the app store, like it's polished, but honestly, it's getting updated almost every two days.
So it's really in beta mode.
And that's just, that's it.
Have you tried it?
Yeah, I did.
Not recently.
I tried it last week, KW, when the five, there was a five hour window when the 21M geohash, a little corner, a little square.
in the Pacific, right off the coast of New Zealand,
was a hubbub of activity, and it was glorious.
And then the spammers came in.
The scammers came in.
So it's going to be a game of whack-a-mole with spammers.
Yeah, there's going to have to be some character limits too.
There was a snake man in this room yesterday,
and it was like, you know, the MS-DOS?
I mean, it looked like you built the Doom logo out of MS-DOS,
but it was a big old snake. And it just, every time you would, and that was his name.
So every time you would comment, it would just be a big old block. That's a snake. And it's like,
okay, this is, it's kind of ridiculous, but I'm here to try it out. So there's going to be some
adjustments to clean it up. And I did notice when I tried to create a room, there's no vowels that
allowed. So I tried to do Noster PHX, but I couldn't do an O. Then I tried to do Saguaro
Citadel and I couldn't do an A. So yeah, there's something about the characters. It's limited.
Yeah. I want to also, on that note, I don't know if this new room stuff is related to
geohashes or it's a separate encoding scheme, but I did mention hexadecimal last week.
I was wrong. I stand corrected. It is its own native base 32 encoding for geohashes. That's how it maps different points on the planet with different levels of granularity depending on how long that base 32, custom base 32 string is for geohashes.
People lean on us for accurate information.
I was off by 50%. Hexadecimal.
This is why we're not credentialed journalists like the Bugle.
Indeed.
Anything else?
That's it.
Okay.
You know what?
Bitcoin Asia is going on.
Domus did launch that, did announce that, and I believe it might be the NoteDeck version or just Domus version, but it is launching on Amethyst.
So it sounds like-
You mean on Android?
On Android.
Was it?
Yeah, sorry.
Sorry.
I conflate him.
I'm sorry, man.
I'm not an Android guy.
So it's another world.
And honestly, it's interesting because, you know, everyone's talking about Google Play Store and Zap.Store.
Well, you know, Google is planning on, I think, 2026 kind of removing any kind of sideloading all that Zap.Store type of material.
And we'll see how that goes.
So win Linux phone, Avi.
We shall see.
We are the moles in this whack-a-mole, essentially.
That's right.
And for our sermon today, QW, it's memple, not gatekeepers. In fiat land, fundraising means
begging at velvet rope doorways while a committee weighs your soul on a spreadsheet. The term sheet
reads like a prenup you sign with your dreams. Miss a quarter, miss the door. We can do better.
sovereign fundraising is simply this the creator keeps their keys the backers keep theirs and
promises are denominated in sats instead of slogans no gatekeepers just a memple some relays
and a web of trust you pitch the people not the paper your roadmap is a signed note your progress
report is a zap thread Settlement happens now not net 30 When the money is honest the relationships get honest Backers aren leads Their first customers day one evangelists future contributors The cap table becomes a village Because
sat stream in both directions, feedback does too. Ship, iterate, repeat. If you can be deplatformed,
your platform property. If you can be debanked, your bank inventory. Hold your keys and you hold
your runway. Is it technical? A little. You learn to sign what you say and settle what you promise.
But the philosophy is ancient. Keep your word, keep your craft, keep your freedom.
Bitcoin is the spine, lightning is the pulse,
Noster the town square.
Reputation compounds, clout decays.
So what are you waiting for?
You can now build in the open, fund at the edges,
and let your community route through you
because you're reliable, not because you're loud.
The fiat world sells attention.
We cultivate alignment.
keys up sats in ship truth and with that qw it's time to bring on our guest
dan gershoni or if you read his name on noster danger shoni welcome dan
hey avi can you hear me yes sir danger dan i like that danger dan
You can't spell danger without Dan, right?
Exactly.
What I like to play with the words is,
my name is Shawnee, Danger Shawnee.
You know, like the Bond, James Bond thingy.
Excellent.
I knew this was going to be a good show, Dan.
So, Dan, for folks who...
Thanks for having me.
Of course, our pleasure.
So, Dan, for folks who are unfamiliar with you,
Obviously, you've launched Angor, but why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself.
Who was Danger Shoney before Angor?
Okay.
Before Angor, I was, I guess, just another Bitcoiner, a developer,
who I've been in the space for some time.
I saw the ICO boom.
I built a multi-crypto wallet.
So at the time, shitcoins were a thing.
But I learned a lot about how the protocol works,
how the Bitcoin code base works.
And over time, I decided I want to work more and more on Bitcoin.
so before Angor
my brother and I
we tried to build a lightning node
in C Sharp
we realized that's quite complicated
and you need probably
a big team and lots of funding
and the business model
is not so clear
how you would make money on that
so eventually
I always had in the back of my mind
to create something like Angor
and so we decided to pivot
and start building Angor
a few years ago
before that I guess I was just a software engineer
working in London
as a contractor
when did the Bitcoin
revelation happen?
for me?
somewhere around
2015
I read an Economist
article about the technology
I read an article about the technology
that will kill the banks
and that was quite interesting
so I went there and that was about Bitcoin
they were a bit optimistic
back then I guess
it didn't kill the banks
not yet
but it definitely offers an alternative
economy
or an alternative currency
to what
finance to what banks have to offer
so that
pick my interest was was that from the magazine the trust machine uh the the economist uh the
trust machine how the technology behind bitcoin could change the world it it was an israeli
website economy economy website uh called okay yeah but but it's i i kind of look into magazines
and i knew 2015 uh october 31st uh they ran that issue so oh my my little magazine historian there
but you know
they tend to copy from other magazines
it could be that it was based on
another
republished already article
so
once I read that article
getting
I immediately went to read the white
paper and being
I guess being a software engineer
I sort of understood
it more than
anyone else would and
that's it, that's how I started to go into
be interested in Bitcoin.
Why did it click for you?
How are you prepared to receive Bitcoin?
What clicked was the fact that
programming, mathematics, cryptography
could solve money, I guess.
That's what was quite amazing.
And it would actually work
when you look at it,
when you look at what was suggested
in the white paper, it looked like it could actually work.
But obviously, that was quite early still.
Bitcoin wasn't worth much.
And it was scrutinized a lot.
And only the crazy guys would talk about Bitcoin.
I remember I worked at the time at Blinkbox.
It's a movie streaming company.
And I was the Bitcoin guy.
Every company event, I would always raise the hand.
and the CEO would say, no, no, Dan, we are not accepting Bitcoin.
Not yet.
So I was the guy who was always trying to suggest,
let's adopt Bitcoin.
Are you more, I think your comments aged well.
So Angor, Dan, oh, sorry, go ahead.
Were you going to say something else?
No, no, yeah, no.
So, Angor, you said you started it three years ago.
So, at that point, it probably was the first Bitcoin crowdfunding platform.
I don't think Geyser is that old.
Is that correct, Dan?
No, we started the design of the protocol.
So, we spent some time on the design itself and it had many variations.
And you have to cover all the edge cases.
The motto that guided us was how to protect the investor's funds.
That was the most important thing.
We looked at creating pools of funds.
We looked at all kinds of ideas.
And eventually, the only thing that really worked
where your funds are really protected
is a two-of-two multi-sig between the founder and the investor
with no third party.
Because if you have any third party in a space
where all the players are unknown or anonymous,
or you cannot trust them,
then there is a big risk of collusion.
So it has to be in such a way that
the investor is always in control in some way
without depending or relying on anyone else.
You know, when you say two of two multi-sig down,
the first thing I think about is a lightning channel, right?
So is that essentially what you're doing,
creating a lightning channel between the two?
Because I, well, we can get into my experience with Angor in a bit,
but yeah, go ahead, Dan.
Is that essentially what it is?
I mean, it's based on the same concept,
and we took a lot of the ideas from Lightning.
A lot of great ideas came from building Lightning and proposing Lightning.
But it's not really a channel, I think.
It's just you create many one-time channels, if you have to compare.
because the way Ango works is we lock your Bitcoins into stages
and those stages are basically time locks.
So every stage is a UTXO
and it's released over time to the founder.
So every stage is a two-of-two multisig.
So if anything, yeah,
it's maybe the beginning of a lightning channel,
but just with a one-time payment.
Right.
I'm just thinking,
So now you have multiple, essentially, what are functionally lightning channels, these two of two multisigs.
All you need is to sprinkle in some HDLCs and you have a full-blown routing network within each fundraise or something like that.
This idea did kind of come up that every stage could be streamed.
So imagine you have one month.
Every stage is one month or a quarter even.
and you don't have to get all the Bitcoin in advance
for that stage.
You could stream it.
So even break it further down
into smaller chunks of payments
being sent to the founders.
But then it becomes complicated.
So I guess always start simple
and then if there is demand,
then innovate or increase the complexity
and deliver based on demand.
Yeah, Dan, also we've jumped right into the deeper.
Maybe it would be helpful to take a step back and say, for a non-technical audience, what is Angor?
What was your motivation behind creating?
For me, Avi.
Okay, so let's start on why.
I'm a non-technical audience.
Fair enough.
So I remember the days of ICOs where, and that was on Ethereum, but it was still really cool where any project could raise money.
and you could see live the funds going to the project.
And there was no barrier to entry.
Anyone could raise, anyone could invest
and it was 24-7 globally.
I thought that was really fantastic.
It was amazing.
The missing bit or the two missing bits
were that it was on Ethereum
which Ethereum is not really the money
but that's a different discussion.
And they were all lockpoles.
That's the other thing, right?
What was missing is investor accounts
Accountability.
Once the...
Sorry, founder accountability.
Once the founders or the project creators got their money
and they gave some shitcoin in return,
but that was just empty promises.
It had no value.
The actual value was locked in the funds that they got.
So once they get the Bitcoin or the Ethereum or whatever,
then they lose incentive to build or deliver or produce anything.
And I think a lot of money was lost that way
because there was a lot of investment back then.
Millions went into projects, right?
So inspired by that I figured that we could do better We could create protocols where the accountability is built into the protocol
So yeah, over time, it got me thinking.
And then eventually we started to think about how we could implement that on Bitcoin.
So yeah, any questions on that part?
That's great.
No, I do. The timing is, you know, three years ago, how much was this? You know, I remember the trucker deal where, what was it? GoFundMe got pulled. There was, people were trying to send Fiat to support these trucker strike in Canada. And the GoFundMe gets pulled down. And it's not something that was a singular occurrence. It happened multiple times.
And I think to Avi's sermon, how important a platform, not a platform, a protocol would be in this funding and actually trying to give to a cause.
I mean, it's just basically uncensorable, right?
It can't be taken down.
And there's no CEO of this protocol.
Yeah, absolutely.
You cannot take anything down.
It's like you can't take down Bitcoin.
So I guess we should try to build such products
that they are all decentralized.
I know it's a word that is used a lot,
but it's a product that you cannot take down.
It's a protocol, really.
It's a wallet that you download the software
and you can do whatever you want with it.
And even you can fork it and change it however you want.
I strongly believe that's the way we should be trying to build software.
permissionless money uh permissionless uh crowdsourcing or funding uh that's they they
go hand in hand right yeah yeah yeah uh when you think about so was there when so were you familiar
with that that trucker strike i am i am yes i i remember and and were you developing this before
or after that?
It's not related.
I didn't...
I'm not saying related.
I'm just saying when you say something like that,
you're like, oh, this fixes that.
Yeah, if I'm honest...
Just like Bitcoin.
It didn't make me think,
oh, we need something like that
because of what happens with the trackers
and the fact that they were censored.
It was obvious to me before that they were censored,
that they could be censored.
The timing of building Angor is just that
It was exactly the right moment in my life to start building it.
As I said, I had this idea quite a while back already.
And it just fit really well three years ago to start designing it and building it.
Yeah, and not only that, with that trucker in the bank accounts,
the government were seizing the people.
Basically, they essentially took the data
or the information of the people
that were actually donating to this.
When you donate to Angor,
is this something that's anonymous?
I mean, how anonymous is it?
Or can you choose to be anonymous?
Oh, yeah, that's a good question.
well
I don't think
privacy is that
so crucial when it comes to investing
because you want to see
who are the other investors
or you at least want to see that they exist
and they allocated funds
for the project that you also invested in
right
but with Angle you do create a new wallet
and you get a new
Nostra identity
that is linked
to that wallet
and you can choose if you want to reveal
and then you create a transaction on chain from that wallet
so any funds that you send to your wallet
that is the Angle wallet
and then create from that a transaction
that is an investment transaction
using chain analysis
I guess you could maybe try to work out
who that person is who invested
so the same privacy assumptions
that you have on a normal Bitcoin transaction I guess
without mixing
however with the Noster part
you don't
you don't link
you don't use your regular
your main Noster account
another one is created for you
and you can choose to link it
or not to link it
so I think
you can try to be private
by design and you can reveal yourself
if you want it
another very cool thing with Ango
is that you could also try to raise privately
because
by deploying private relays
and only limiting the accounts
that are allowed to go on that relays,
then you could raise in a private way
that nobody knows.
Nobody will even see the project
being created on Noster
because that relay is only allowed
to those who are given access to invest.
How was your experience, Albie?
Well, I was actually going to ask Dan
to walk through a simple concrete example
and we can use my experience with Angor.
So as some of you,
or many of you have heard on us saying on previous shows,
Finding Home episode three,
which I will be filming in Paraguay,
I have done the fundraise using Angor
and actually just closed it out today, Dan.
I know it was a little over 90% complete
and then I had to just top it up
before the end date, which was in a couple of days.
But so Dan, maybe do you want to use that
as an illustrative example and step,
maybe walk through, again, our non-technical audience,
folks who might be interested in funding any,
you know, maybe they're starting a company,
maybe they're starting a show like I am
or some other venture, right?
How they would go through this and what exactly happens?
Because one of the, as you said,
one of the things I noticed is Finding Home episode three
is given an end pub when that project is created.
And that is actually an end pub you can look up on NOSTA
and has all the project details.
So I think it'll be helpful if you walk through it step by step
for folks to understand.
Sure. Okay.
And by the way, the fact you had to top up,
I think that's quite normal
because very often in investment,
you bring your own money as well.
And then others join you and add top up to yours.
So that's totally fine, I think.
Yeah, for sure.
So, yeah, if we go step by step.
Congratulations, Avi.
Thank you.
And thank you to Dan and the Angor team,
who are also very generous in helping me out for that.
Go ahead, Dan.
You're welcome.
Before I go into talking about how you, step by step,
how you would invest,
I just wanted to mention that I have a bit of a marketing budget.
And I think I realized that the best way to use that budget
is by investing in companies or people in the space
that are doing something.
So the allocation that I gave for your project
or for your movie, Avi,
that was partly selfish because I want to promote Angkor,
but also because I really liked your idea.
So it's a win-win.
And I'm hoping to do more of that with other people and projects.
oh you open a can of worms dan you'll have people knocking down breaking down your door after this
looking for my vlog funding now
it's great but you know it might not just be me maybe i need funding for the data to watch
if we can get other bitcoiners to chip in a bit and then suddenly you have the crowds
funding people who are doing stuff in content creators.
So you need those who start the effort
and then others join.
But sure, of course,
if you have a nice vlog, QW, let me know.
I think people hear me now.
Once a week for 90 minutes.
Yes.
Far less data.
So let's go about how, I will go step by step on how do you invest with Angor.
So first of all, a founder, let's call it the content creator, the founder, the creator of a project,
they need to create a wallet on Angor.
And they need to top up this wallet with enough Bitcoin to create a transaction on-chain.
Because every investment requires an initial transaction on-chain.
And this is sort of a spam filter that we won't have the protocol being flooded with fake projects or requests.
So once you have a wallet with some Bitcoin, then you go ahead and you define the stages of your deliveries.
And those are based on time.
let's take for example for avi you had three stages if i'm not mistaken that's right and
we i think it was a month apart anyway as you you decide how much as a creator as a founder you
decide what is the distance between each stage and how many stages and how much you want to raise
and then you go ahead and deploy that.
Three things will happen.
A metadata event will go on Noster,
which holds the data,
so this data cannot be changed.
A profile is created for the account,
for the founder's account,
so a new profile is created on Noster
and a transaction is created on the blockchain
with an op return of the event ID of the metadata
and this sort of links the Noster data to the blockchain.
so you can't temper with the data
the data is the stages
the target
the date of the stages and so on
the public keys that are being used
once you have
a project being created
then you go and you market your project
to the Bitcoin community
and ask for funding
the idea is that you would try to create
the stages in such a way
that they will give as much guarantees to a founder,
to an investor that you can deliver on your project
without the investor risking their funds.
For example, if you take 90% of all the funds
in the first stage or the first two stages,
then it's riskier for an investor.
So you probably want to apply some game theory here
and try to create as many stages as you can
without it being disrupting your delivery plan of the project.
Okay so once we have that investors can come and they can invest So an investor will also have to create a wallet an Angor wallet The investor will also get a profile on Noster
And then they go and they find a project on Angor or Angor Hub.
We'll talk about Angor Hub in a second.
And then they can just create the transactions that invest in your project.
the process of the investment
is a
there are three steps
there is a request
that goes to the founder
the founder then approves that request
and sends back the signatures
that are needed for a penalty transaction
once the investor has that penalty transaction
then they can go on chain
and they are considered invested
I will touch briefly at the penalty transaction
the penalty transaction are Bitcoin signatures
That ties into the two of the multisig.
That's a spending branch on the taproot
that allows an investor to take back their funds.
So if Avi Burra, he buys a Lambo with the first stage,
and then he's in breach of his...
100% what he's going to do.
So I can go and I can...
So I can go back to Angle to my wallet as an investor
and with three clicks of a button
and I'm out of the project
and I get the rest of my funding back.
So let's say one stage is gone,
I can get back the other two stages.
However, those two stages are locked into a time lock as well.
The duration of that time lock
is decided in the beginning of the project
by the creator of the project, the founder.
So this is how Angular works at a high level.
The reason we are assigning Noster accounts to the users
is that the idea was that the creator of the project,
they will give updates using the project's new account, created account.
So any investor, they can follow that account.
they don't have to follow the account
the Noster account of the creator
itself, they follow the project
account and there they can get
updates, they can reply, they can
interact and so on
let's say if a founder missed
a deliverable
the time lock has expired
and they didn't deliver what they were
what they promised
so I guess that will be a discussion between
the founder and the investors
you know, projects always
they are always late
so a founder will say
hey we are late because of ABC
and so on
so give us another chance
or don't put up your money
this idea is
it happened to me in the past
quite often that founders
would just stop answering
or you have to try to
send messages all the time
try to create other points of pressure
to get communication.
Basically, once you gave all the money
and you don't have any leverage,
then you don't have any ability
to influence a founder.
So by having the ability to take back your funds,
founders would never ignore investors,
if that makes sense.
But after the stages expire,
that leverage is gone, right?
at that point once the funds are claimed.
But they're deliverable.
For that stage, yes.
Yeah, got it.
Okay.
I think I described sort of the high level
of Adi Angra protocol.
If you have questions about that,
I might have missed something.
You know, I'm going to defer to QW here
because I've used it
and I've helped the folks who were investing
with their questions.
And then when I had to top up, I was a quote unquote investor as well.
So I've seen both sides of it.
So I was, while you were talking, I was browsing Angor.io.
And I do recommend anybody listening to Dan while he talks.
There's a lot on this, a lot of information that he's, you know, might be some buzzwords,
might be, you know, like you talk about the wallet, it's nice to visualize things.
So it's kind of a learning curve for me.
So I'm kind of playing along as I'm listening.
Avi, how was the wallet for you?
Because I understand the first thing you do is you make your wallet
and it automatically makes an in-pub.
How was your wallet experience?
Avi, it's okay to criticize, by the way, 100%.
Yeah, because it says there's a beta, a test,
and then a beta version, correct?
We are still building and all this feedback is really great.
Yeah.
Don't hold back.
I do have feedback, not on this process, Dan,
just on the general UX, and I understand the trade-off
that you've had to make, right?
Security versus good user, like being a seamless user experience.
But we can get to that in a second.
From the wallet...
The end game was, it was successful for you, Avi.
So that's great.
Yeah, exactly.
Absolutely.
It was a roaring success, my experiment with Angor.
Well, I haven't received all the funds.
So maybe I should hold my horses.
Dan's driving your funds right now.
It's called the Lambo.
I could still pull them back
the wallet experience itself
yeah you go in there
and you click on wallet
and you click on create wallet
it flashes up your seed words
you write them down
you say okay
you fund
you wait for one confirmation
and it's there
it's all there
I mean it's a hot wallet
right obviously
in Angor
so you don't want to put
your life savings in it
But no, pretty seamless.
Both on the, I had to create two wallets.
One as a founder, as the creator of this, right?
And then the other as an investor
to do the top up at the very end.
And both cases, it was super easy.
Okay, and then a second question, Avi.
I think this is the best approach to this.
When you describe your project,
how was filling it out?
What kind of brainstorming did you do to kind of sell?
I mean, essentially you're selling yourself or selling your project to investors, right?
Yeah, there are different sections.
How was that process?
Oh, yeah.
Here's some feedback.
Maybe you guys have fixed it in the time that I did it and not.
But, you know, there are different sections you can fill in.
There's the basic blurb that describes the project.
Then there's more detail where you can talk about the different phases of investment, what it entails.
In my case, it's a show. I broke it into three phases, pre-production, filming, and post-production. Pre-production is everything, all the research and all the legwork that needs to happen before you actually get to the place. Identifying the restaurants, the locations, aligning with the filming crew and all of that stuff. So that was pre-production. I explained that. I explained the filming part, which is the most straightforward.
right and then the post-production which is all the editing and so on which our friends in israel
are doing laha venoa which we talked about this previous episode so i mentioned all of that
and then and then i talked about what quote-unquote benefits investors get above a certain sat
threshold i think it's two million you get an associate producer tag above three million you're
an executive producer anything below two million you get a special thanks in the titles um so
So basically, I explained all of that.
I think the one bit of feedback, Dan,
and maybe you fixed this already,
is the markdown editor that you have to write all of this.
It's a bit clunky, right?
It keeps jumping around
when you're trying to create these markdown blocks.
But that was like a month, month and a half ago
when I, yeah, over a month and a half ago
when I set this up.
Yeah, I think some of the devs are quite busy
on the profile creation or modification page.
So probably some of the feedback you gave us was already fixed.
And thanks for the feedback, by the way.
Yeah, no, happy to see projects like this work out.
But yeah, I mean, so Dan, from my perspective,
obviously I haven't received the money yet
because the first phase hasn't even closed,
which it'll close in two or three days.
But everything leading up to that, largely seamless.
Now here's a question on that,
which is, I understand the reason why it's this way, right?
It's the two of two multi-sig,
that's how you, and you have the time locks
and all of that, right?
So it's truly sovereign
and it empowers both the fundraiser
and the funders as well.
Having said that,
and this is what a couple of the people who funded this,
sort of, they were kind of lost on this,
which is, so they find the project on Angor
the first thing they have to do is they have to create a wallet, right? So that's immediate
touch point number one. So they have to create a wallet and then they have to fund the wallet.
So that takes however long it takes to create the wallet and then wait for at least one
confirmation. So best case scenario, we're talking, you know, a few minutes, but maybe,
you know, a little longer, it could take 10, 20 minutes in some cases. That's step one. Step two,
then they hit invest.
Then I have to be around
to accept that investment, right?
So I have to,
they send the funds to the project.
Then they tell me,
hey, I send the funds to the project.
I go to my project.
I look at my screen.
I see a little notification
that says accept funding.
I hit accept.
Then it goes back to them again
and they have to hit invest on their screen
and that's when it gets finalized, right?
I understand why
because it's a two-of-two multi-sig.
But the question is,
this user experience is a little challenging,
especially if you are trying to move fast
as both an investor and as a fundraiser,
as a founder.
It seems intentional though, right?
If you have a true project,
you have a real project,
you have real investors,
this is a very intentional act that's required,
which lends to security of it too.
Yeah, for sure.
But just on that note,
on the last step, right?
Where the investor hits invest,
they're like, okay, I'm done.
I created a wallet.
I funded my wallet
and I hit invest.
I should be done.
That was the other step.
So in a couple of the cases, Dan,
I had to-
They already boarded the plane
and they're off to Tahiti.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah.
It's great you mentioned that, Avi,
by the way
and I think QW
sort of made a very good comment
that's related
to that clunky
user experience
so
first of all I will answer it in two ways
one is
I believe Angular Protocol
will be eventually used
for big money
so where you invest 10, 50,000 dollars
worth of Bitcoin
even 100,000 dollars worth of Bitcoin
and if you enjoy
invest that much money, you don't mind the extra steps for the security that you get.
For the security benefits that you get, you wouldn't mind doing such extra steps.
In fact, it's even welcomed.
But also it allows the founder to approve investors.
So quite often with big money and big projects, not everyone is allowed to invest.
So founders, I mean, there may be some KYC requirements or people could use Ango in a KYC trusted way as well.
It doesn't have to be fully decentralized.
And they may want to approve investors.
So that option exists.
It does exist.
But we can fix that.
We can do better.
Avi, did you hear that?
You don't have to let Jeffrey Epstein be the co-producer on your – the executive producer on your project.
I mean, really, though, that's kind of – there is power in that, right?
I mean, I kid, but it's a strong point.
Okay, yeah.
Carry on, Dan. Carry on.
But we are, so as you mentioned earlier also, that's a web wallet.
So the trust here is not really bad.
And in hindsight, thinking back, maybe building a web wallet,
starting with a web wallet wasn't the best approach.
But we are building a desktop wallet that will replace the web one
that will hopefully be released in the next couple of months.
and it's built on Avalunia
which then means we can compile it into mobile as well.
So eventually the web will go away
and we'll only have desktop and mobile apps.
And then obviously the security is way better
once you run it on your own desktop,
on your own PC.
We have also somewhere in the roadmap
to do cold wallets, hardware wallets,
which will also be cool I think
I mean realistically if we want big money to come into Angor
we need to have cold wallet support
hardware wallet support
but when we will have a desktop or mobile app
then we could streamline it, it could be easier
you could just get a QR code
and then you just send money to this QR code
and in the background it will create the wallet
and it will build the Angor transaction for you
and it could go and wait for the approval
and then we could automate all that user experience
once we have a desktop app.
That would actually make a lot of sense, Dan.
If you don't need to create a separate one,
you just send it to the QR code on the desktop app,
it creates the wallet, it funds it,
it waits for the response, it accepts it.
If you automate a lot of that,
then it starts resembling a geyser
or gets closer to the user experience of a geyser at that point.
Yeah, I mean, the problem is always the keys.
Where will they live?
So having the keys unlocked on the browser,
that's even worse in terms of security.
But on a desktop or on a mobile app,
perhaps it's not as bad.
So exactly, yeah.
And some guys in the team are really looking forward for that feature
because you could also use Angular with smaller projects
that are raising 10,000 or 5,000.
And then every Bitcoin eric would just send 100 or 200 or 300
and they wouldn't want all this hassle.
So definitely that would maybe open smaller investors
being willing to use the platform.
And surely there's got to be a way down.
Oh, not surely, but maybe there's a way here, Dan.
Given the fact that these two of two multisigs
are functionally lightning channels
of somehow getting lightning into the mix
just to make the funding easier
to unlock these smaller projects.
For example, finding home,
at least as it stands today in its low budget form,
is not $100,000.
I'd love it to be, but today it's not, right?
It's, I mean, what is it?
My fundraiser was $6 million,
so that's like $6,000 or $7,000 at today's price.
I think projects of that size, maybe even smaller,
would benefit from just an easy lightning thing.
Yeah, but we could also use swappers for that.
So you would open the app,
you would get a Lightning QR code
and that would go and swap with one of the existing...
I mean, just like you do with Aqua Wallet
where you can send lightning
and it goes directly into liquid Bitcoin.
Right, you could use a submarine swap of something.
Yeah, exactly.
But then you'll get killed if the fees are high.
That's game over at that point.
So what kind of projects then?
Go ahead.
Speaking of which,
a very nice easy pick would be also the Liquid Network.
And we're working on that.
So Ango could work on Liquid.
And then it will maybe be also
much more sense for smaller projects.
the reason is that
Liquid has the same execution engine as
Bitcoin so
to deploy Ango on Liquid wouldn't be
that much work
hopefully we are working on that
we'll see
you might at that point be the only
project in the world Dan that uses
Bitcoin, Nostra
Liquid and potentially Lightning
I can't think
of another one that uses all of them
great so what kind of projects uh are the best fit for anger i mean i personally enjoyed the
experience uh of fundraising for finding home episode three but i recognize that
you know there are opportunities for bigger projects as you said right to to thrive on anger
Yeah.
So let me touch on Angor Hub
before we talk about what are the best projects.
So Angor Hub, basically hub.angor.io.
It's a Noster client dedicated specifically
to scanning the network and showing Angor projects.
So when you create a project on the Angor wallet,
then it will normally appear on a hub.
However, our hub, AngularHub specifically,
we are filtering the projects that will appear there.
But I'm hoping that in the future,
there will be many hubs run by different people
and they decide what projects will appear on their hub.
And maybe perhaps if there is some person
who is doing lots of due diligence on projects that are interesting,
then they could publish on their hub
the projects they think are worth investing in.
There might be also some affiliate mechanism there.
So yeah, just trying to mention Angle Hub as well.
So speaking of what is the best project,
or at least my vision,
because people could use Angle in ways
that I didn't even envision, I guess.
I would like to see
all the big Nostra clients
on Angor being funded
by the people
who are using Nostra
this could be a cool example
we have Nostria
it's a Nostra client
I like that idea
they got some funding from Angor
as well
but I would like to see the other projects
as well
ideal project
So, okay, if we talk about projects,
then we have to make a distinction here
between projects that are equity-bearing
and that don't promise anything in return.
So if it's equity-bearing, then it's an investment.
But if it's just a project, let's say Amethyst,
they register a project on Angor
and the plebs, they fund them
and they don't promise anything back,
the thing they promise back is a feature
or to make Amethyst itself better, for example.
I think this would be really cool
to build the ecosystem.
And hopefully we could use Angor to do that.
Does Angor create,
does it create its own nip for a project?
When you build a project,
because you mentioned that the hub,
and if I click on explore the hub,
it would populate there
those projects that are
broadcasted in Nostra, right?
Yeah.
Am I understanding that correctly?
Yeah, but we do create our NIP
NIP 3030
for the metadata
but the projects that you see on the hub
they are filtered
we go to the blockchain
and we see the latest projects
that have been deployed for Angular
so we forked Mempool
and we adapted it a bit
to also capture the data of any transaction on the blockchain
that looks like an Angular transaction.
Got it.
So that explore page is basically capturing all the confirmations
on the blockchain that are Angular project specific.
Yeah.
It's not the most efficient.
It would be better if we would adapt the hub to look at NIP 3030
and based on that display projects.
I tend to agree on that comment.
And I think there are some active discussions within the team about that.
Just got to figure out how to mitigate spam.
But I guess once it produced it can only be produced through that wallet initiation right Yeah then you would have to go to the blockchain and make sure that this project has a transaction
Only then you would display it on the hub.
So instead of going and getting all the transactions,
all the projects from the indexer, from the blockchain,
and then filtering them out, you would do the reverse.
You would get everything from Nostra and filter out.
yeah and there's op return bot as well on nostr dan you can just pull use that one there's an
yeah it's interesting because it's a big idea but i'm loving that i i find that the the website's
really well done so it's very informative uh and it's it's just kind of neat to click along and
it's kind of like an introduction um like i'm sitting in class right now cool yeah ask the
teach your questions. And Dan, it's worth again clarifying, I think you mentioned this earlier,
but Angor itself is a protocol, right? And it's a protocol that combines these different elements,
these two of two multi-sigs with the NOSTA part. Anyone can take that and build their own hub.
It so happens that you made the first initiation, the first instantiation, I should say,
of the Angor protocol in Angor hub, right? Which is the one QW is talking about.
yeah exactly
imagine this scenario
so we are running a hub
imagine HRA for OpenSats
run their own hub
and they are giving grants
so they could
OpenSats could
run their own hub
list projects that they are going to give grants to
and not
then the plebs could also come and help
chip in
so it could be that
OpenStats don't give the entire grant
they give 50% and the rest is given
by
the community or the people who like
the grant idea
they want it to happen
just throwing out one option
for how hub could be used
Dan let's go
back to the equity bearing versus
non-equity bearing because that's
non-equity bearing is the easiest one
that's what I did
when I was setting it up we were talking about
what can can i promise something and i landed on the very safe thing of saying i will give you a
credit in my call you an executive producer or an associate or a special thanks because
anything else saying you get a share of the profits and all of that stuff it suddenly starts
getting a little hairy in my mind right so i i for a for a short film about this i i just did not
want to go down that road now let's talk about a client and you said amethyst so let's take
another example, someone's creating a new NOSTA client and they want to do a proper fundraise,
right? Not donations or whatever, but an actual fundraise. In theory, in that text box where I put
in executive produce and so on, when they create those, they can actually embed a safe, you know,
simple agreement for future equity agreement, right? Those things that are used in VC or
seed round fundraising is that so question two questions right can they do that and if they can
is that enforceable off-chain because ultimately a safe is an off-chain document right adjudicated
by a court of law yeah exactly uh so uh nostria the project that raised one of the first projects
that raised on anger, he issued safes.
So if in the future he succeeds and he has some revenue,
then he would give some of that to those who invested,
which is one way.
So I always try to look at the extreme cases.
There is no way to make sure that a founder is honest
in an environment which is completely anonymous
once they have a successful project.
We can't bring events from outside of the blockchain
into the blockchain.
I mean, at least I can't think of a way to do that.
So it can't go fully centralized.
So that means that maybe the delivery mechanism
of the Bitcoin into the project when they build it,
that is, you're more protected there
because it's delivered over stages
and you can see the progress and so on.
But let's assume a project's raised successfully
and delivered successfully
and they make revenue, they have profit,
but they decide not to share those profits with the investors then then what then how can we
recover from that so yeah that's a ongoing question and right and that would be subject to
the like whatever the law of the land is and then in i presumably international law right dan because
how do you know where these people are where the investors are where the client's headquarters is
yeah that's a good question i i guess i i think it's less of an issue in comparison to the to the
other problem of giving you know either going centralized and then risking because if you go
centralized you risk your bitcoin in some ways right you have to either give the bitcoin to the
founder or to a third party that will will give the bitcoin to the founder over time or or you
or you actually don't you're not anonymous you know who the founder is and you still use
to give the Bitcoin in stages.
Yeah, that option also works.
But yeah, you will have to go
and probably sue the founder.
And then you will have to go
to the state court system
and bring this.
Here's the safe agreement.
Here is my investment.
You can prove you invested.
Obviously, everything is on chain.
So you have the ability to prove that
and you have your end pub.
So you can prove that you are
the owner of the wallet.
but this is a problem, a hard-to-crack problem.
How do we do equity in a decentralized way?
Yes, and to be clear, Dan, as far as I understand this,
this is not a problem that you or the Angor team need to solve.
You are just providing a protocol.
And yes, a platform in the form of Angor Hub,
but if someone else can build their own hub using the Angor protocol.
right it really is an issue between the founder and the and the investors themselves you know
the investors choosing to trust a safe agreement that was pasted into a markdown document and then
trusting the enforceability of a safe along those lines but it's just an interesting academic
problem to contemplate because it is a i mean we're in a strange new world right if you're
talking about safe agreements being embedded on NOSTA
and within op returns.
It makes things interesting.
It is interesting indeed.
I mean, you can look at the libertarian society
and how they solve disputes outside of the enforcement of the state.
And there are all kinds of options there.
If it's private courts, insurance bonds, reputation.
but you're right that this is
outside of the scope of Angor
because we just focus on the protocol
and the less ability to
influence
by the devs
the better
so even if we disappear and we are not
involved in any way, Angor will just continue
the protocol itself
What will happen to the hub?
Just playing
that out for a second Dan
the hub disappears though, not the protocol
The hub might still go on, but then it won't filter bad projects.
Or, I mean, if we take it offline, then it disappears.
Yeah, of course.
Also, if we take Angor offline, then Angor.io and all the web wallet disappears.
But you can always just go to GitHub, download it and compile it yourself and run it yourself.
And then you don't need...
Even now you can do that.
You can run Angor in a local host setup
and then you can use it without needing to fetch
the software from our domain.
So Dan, you launched this version of Angor,
what was it, five or six months ago,
before the Warsaw Film Fest, correct?
Yeah.
Okay.
and how many projects
how many projects do you have
listed on active projects do you have on the hub
right now
yeah if you go on the first project was
Bloomfest
and that was
May
yeah so
yeah Bloomfest was a cool project that was
launched for a festival
here in London
so right now we have what is it
12 projects
that have been listed on Angor.
But disclaimer, those projects are hackathon winners.
So I figured out the best way to market Angor
will actually be to take the marketing budget
and invest it in projects who are using Angor.
So when we're starting to do hackathons
in all kinds of events in the Bitcoin space
and giving a prize and the winner or the two winners
or as many as they are
will get funded on Angor.
So this brings projects in.
But it's a win-win
because we get feedback,
we improve the software,
people get some funding
and hopefully, yeah,
I will continue with that model for now.
And when the software is more stable,
maybe I will be able to increase the amounts
and maybe we can get other people to also chip in.
Yeah.
By the way, Dan, I realized I'd be remiss if I didn't say this.
Big shout out to Roger 9000 who in Prague happened to be in a randomly right happened to be in a taxi with you back from the airport to the hotel
And you guys got talking and then he gets out of the taxi, he sees me and he starts telling me all about Angor.
That's how I found out about it.
And now I'm making a Paraguay episode.
So there you go.
Avi, is he the highest sober guy you've ever met?
100%.
He's high on Bitcoin.
thank you roger
that was a fun show we did with him
yeah for sure
remarkable and very memorable
for sure
so I guess Dan
you know there's geyser already
for the bitcoin community
right and
and you know
there are a lot of projects on geyser
why would someone choose
Angor versus geyser
I think it's different models
Geyser is slightly more donations
and for smaller amounts
and I love Geyser
don't get me wrong
but we're sort of
complementary techs
one is more smaller amounts
the other one is more accountability
and bigger amounts
like Ango is for
I guess if you put anything
between $500 to $1,000
and above that
and you need accountability, you would rather use Angor.
And in the other case, you would go to use Geyser.
But there is another distinction also that Geyser is run,
is sort of centralized, is run by a team.
And they have to filter projects, unfortunately,
because they have to follow the regulation of where,
the local jurisdiction regulation.
with Angor
that's not the case because anyone can just
download Angor and use it
the only distinction
is that Angor Hub is something we are running
and we have to also make sure that nothing illegal
is being published
to the hub
That raises an
interesting point Dan
which is obviously you will take
all necessary precautions
to ensure there are no illegal projects
on Angor Hub.
But what about the Angor Protocol?
Like, I mean, let's just pick one example
of a nefarious activity.
Let's say someone uses the Angor Protocol,
they create their own hub
and they create some kind of illegal weapons smuggling ring
or something like that.
I don't know.
It's a growing operation where when the marijuana blooms,
you know, you get number one
and then the second payout is, yeah,
you can play that game.
Yeah, so that's really, at this point,
that's, it's completely doable, right,
with the protocol?
It's out of my control.
I can ask them nice not to do it.
I can tell them you're not allowed to do it.
But other than that, there's not much I can do.
Yeah, you know, I think it's, you know,
the extension is it's like people using Bitcoin
for things you don't agree with.
you can ask them nicely not to do it
but they're going to use Bitcoin
if they want to
and they're going to use US dollars
in fact most of the time
they use more US dollars for bad stuff
than they do Bitcoin
exactly
yeah exactly
I mean we had some chat with a lawyer
to see what
where are
is the team accountable
and the conclusion is
even though there is a fee
that is paid on every transaction
to the Anger team
and this is our business model
the conclusion is that if we can't control the money
and we cannot
and we don't actively help anyone
to try to break the law
then we are
we are clear
and it's open source code
right?
and it's open source of course
yeah
only open source
speaking about open source
one of the worries I had in the beginning
was
if it's open source, somebody can come
and fork it and compete
and
steal the business model.
And partly, that's also
the reason the fee is very low.
But
generally, I think that's not an issue.
If a good project
is out there,
the first project is the one
that everyone tends to use
unless we really
screw up in a big way.
But also, you know, competition is good.
Anyone else forking it
and doing something interesting,
we can take it back.
And a very low fee
means that there is much less incentive
to fork it.
And because we are protocol,
we can offer a low fee
because there's not much for us to run.
We don't have any legal team.
We don't have expensive servers.
So what is your revenue engine then?
Is it the hub?
It's the protocol.
Built into the software itself,
it's baked into the protocol a fee-paying output.
So when you create a transaction, an investment transaction,
you create for every stage a UTXO,
but the first UTXO is the fee that is paid to an address that we control.
And the second UTXO is the opritone, and then the stages.
But if the code is open source, can't the address be changed?
Yeah.
At the protocol level?
Okay.
Yeah.
But you will have to fork the code, change the address, and redeploy it.
And then you would have to tell everyone that is running your version
that you didn't make any other changes in the code, if you know what I mean.
Got it.
So this is actually an interesting model, which I don't think I've heard of before.
because i see normally when when you when someone says i have a protocol
i obviously i'm not going to make any money on it because it's open source
it's for the people but i've i've created the first implementation of
instantiation of that protocol that's and i have the first mover advantage and
i become the trusted face and that's that's what happens
in your case you actually baked in the split or whatever right the fee
at the protocol level.
Wow.
I mean, it really is.
I don't know of anyone else who is doing it.
Maybe Wasabi Wallet.
But they're running a coordinator,
so they are providing some backend services.
And there's no legal entity anymore for Wasabi, right?
I think that's dissolved
for my last conversation with Max.
But they still have...
I mean, if there is anyone running coordinators,
they will still be making some revenue on the fees.
You're right, it is an interesting...
That is audacious, Dan.
You are an audacious man.
That's all I can say on that.
Hey, look, we have to find ways to make...
It's nice to create open source
and give from your own time and build for free,
but we have to find ways to make money
when building open source software.
if we want to scale.
I don't think you can scale
just by having developers.
Because eventually somebody pays, right?
If you get software for free,
it means the developer worked
and he paid his time to build it for you.
And that won't scale.
I don't think that can scale.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, that's, yes.
People's time and labor
needs to be compensated somehow.
Can't go into a black hole.
Agreed.
So what's next Rango, Dan?
What is the evolution going to look like
over this year and next year?
Oh, wow, yeah, good, good.
We want to finish the desktop
and maybe a mobile wallet.
That's first.
And hardware wallets.
To implement hardware wallets,
I think we are going to need some changes
in the library and Bitcoin.
So that depends on available time
on making those changes
or if we can find another developer
to make those changes and pay them.
So those two things.
But what I would like to see is
one idea that came up is to create a hackathon hub
which will be used in Bitcoin events for hackathons.
So we would fork the hub
and we would adapt it a bit for more hackathon style
and then let events use it for them
if they want to offer hackathons and so on.
Trying to create...
I mean, there are all kinds of cool features
we could add to Angor.
So maybe funding those features
will happen on Angor itself.
Like maybe a feature will take three months to build
and a developer will get funding on Angor
to build that feature.
But basically...
Can I pause you real quick, Dan,
and then we'll get back to the roadmap
I think you're going to need a hub hackathon first
before you get a hackathon hub
you know, it's a bit of a chicken, right?
because you need a hackathon
chicken and the egg
right, you need a hackathon for people to build out different hubs
and hopefully one of those hubs ends up being a hackathon hub
and then you have a hackathon hub
no, but carry on, carry on
yeah, for example, we sponsored the hackathon in Riga
and that was together with Geyser.
So the hackathon, the project's listed on Geyser
and eventually the winners, they came and created
a project on Angor.
So maybe this could be, this friction could be gone away
by creating first a project on Noster
and then it already appears on your hackathon hub We exploring all kinds of ideas here and trying to make it more streamlined because it will be an open source project
So nobody will be running it.
It will be just you deploy your own hub
or your Hackathon Hub and run your own hub.
So going back to the roadmap.
Basically just getting more projects.
And maybe if there are very interesting projects
that I would like to invest in them.
So if you have the security of Vanguard,
then you may feel more confident
to put more money in a project you're investing in.
And you were talking about the potential UX enhancements, right?
With the desktop wallet.
And the UX enhancements, absolutely.
I think that definitely will come.
as soon as possible.
Yeah, another option
that we were thinking about
is using the bunker.
What is the NIP for bunker?
NIP 47, I think.
Where remote signing
for your Noster events.
So maybe extending that
so that you can have remote signing
for Bitcoin transactions as well
or Angular transactions.
And then using a web browser is probably safer
because you don't actually keep any keys on the browser.
You keep them on your application that runs the bunker.
All kinds of ideas are floating around.
Nice.
So what else are you working on?
How much has Nostor changed all this for you
as far as your development and your mindset on developing Andor?
First of all, I love Nostr,
and I think the potential of Nostr is insane.
Way more than just social.
We can be lots of apps on Nostr.
What did it change for me?
Basically, we don't have to run a backend.
This is a big deal, I think, for teams.
The dependency on you is reduced.
You just use the Nostra network
for any storage of data
or any interactions within users.
It's very interesting.
I like it very much so far.
And NIP 46, I believe.
NIP 46, the bunker, yeah.
Yes.
so Dan what else are you working on
anything outside of Angkor or this is
your
this takes up all your time and attention
yeah just Angkor for now
Angkor and trying to help the
Cypher Monk House in London
I mean
they do a lot of events so I like to
go there a lot and
participate where I can
and you know we should have
Cypher on the show just to talk about
the Cypher Monk House, Cypher is
working with you on Angor, correct?
He used to work on Angor.
He's sort of part-time,
but he decided to focus more on the Cypher Monk house.
Got it.
And it's really great what he's doing.
I must say, well done, Cypher.
You should definitely bring him.
He's a very interesting guy.
So on the Cypher Monk house itself,
is that like a Bitcoin park in London,
the equivalent of a Bitcoin park or one of those,
I guess Bitcoin spaces
that they've built out there?
Yeah, they
focus on art, Bitcoin art
but it is
definitely a Bitcoin
open space where
you could come
and you could learn about
self-custody, you can
learn how to use hardware wallets
they run
noob sessions for
people who want to learn how to use all kinds of wallets
they will even help you build your own
seed signer. It's really
cool and there is a lot of Bitcoin art
if you come to London
and you're a Bitcoiner you have to go to
Cyphermunkhouse.
Is that like the main spot
for Bitcoin in London? It's quite central
yeah it's quite central.
It looks like the upcoming events are
September 16th
Bitcoin 101 at 7pm
and then Bitcoin
and Chill September 21st
So some heavy hitting events coming up.
It's amazing to have a Bitcoin art space, Bitcoin art space QW.
I mean, we don't have that in the US.
It's mostly like, you know, little conference spaces or seminars and or technical spaces.
I don't believe there's a Bitcoin art space in the US.
I think about it.
Yeah.
Cool stuff.
Yeah.
I don't know either.
I think you definitely have to have a bigger, high-density Bitcoin area,
maybe like Pleb Labs or Bitcoin Park,
or maybe even up in New York with the pub key.
I can see.
Someone would have to really care about art
and maybe even start an Angor fund.
Challenge accepted.
so Dan any call to action for folks listening
how can they engage with Angor
what can they do to get more involved
if you have an idea
you want to try to get funding to build it
get in touch
but the high level call to action would be
go and invest in projects
because this is what will drive the ecosystem.
And Angular will give you guarantees
that your investment will not be wasted.
And this is what we need, I think.
We need more people to invest in developers
and in projects and in interesting ideas.
And I mean, the analogy I like to say
is that even if 1% of all hodled Bitcoin
will be allocated into building,
into funding in the space.
This is a lot of money for developers,
for talent to come over.
So the call to action is find projects
and try to get them to listen and go
and invest in them
and get your other Bitcoin friends
to invest in them as well.
And if there are people who have their own projects,
really cool, interesting projects,
and they want to reach out to you or someone from the Angor team
to see if you'd be interested in supporting them
with your marketing budget that you mentioned earlier.
What is the best way they could do that?
Good question.
We have a Telegram group.
We have a Signal group.
We have a Discord.
Or you can just go on Noster and ping me.
My account is available on Noster or anyone else of the team.
another way to capture my attention
is create a project on Algor
we recently
had a project created
21 Lat
it's the last one
the latest one on the hub
and this was organic
it came from
Tomek and Albi
21 years
is that what it means in Polish?
I think that's what it means
that's a project that totally just came to Angkor
without us trying to promote it
so this is really cool
the first one
and things like this
that would be cool
awesome
I guess that's my call to action
great
well Dan, appreciate you taking the time
and educating us on Angkor
lots of exciting stuff going on
And for me personally, thank you to you and to others on the Angor team for being early supporters and believers in Finding Home episode three.
QW, anything for Dan?
I just want to take a moment to appreciate Angor, how you've taken all the tools, whether it's Nost or Bitcoin, using our tools of our society, like the community and creators.
Really, it's a perfect collaboration of all these tools that we have as a culture to kind of expand the culture, I suppose.
So it's really neat.
I liked following along on Angor.io when you were talking.
I learned a lot.
Very intriguing.
It was a lot for me to wrap my head around.
But once I started seeing an emotion, it's pretty cool how you've taken all these technologies that were developed.
by other people over time, open source.
And it's just really an ode
to the open source community as well.
Absolutely. Thank you.
Thank you very much.
And I must say that many of the ideas
also come from the team.
We have a great team.
I'm not going to name anyone for privacy reasons
and they can just decide to reveal themselves.
But yeah, it's like all kinds of great ideas
all the time coming up.
And those that make sense, we try to implement them.
So thank you for having me on the show.
Thank you, Avi and QW, very much.
Thank you, Don.
Thank you.
And thank you for tuning in to Pleb Chain Radio.
If you appreciate us as much as we appreciate you,
listen on Fountain App and consider hitting the subscribe button.
Until next week, farewell.
Goodbye.