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Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses

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on the intersection of NOSTER and Bitcoin protocols.

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Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current

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thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,

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doers, and plebs.

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All right, we are live.

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Welcome, gentle plebs, to the Lightning Laced Airwaves. Today is Friday the 29th of August and it is episode 127 of Plep Chain Radio, 104pm on the east coast of the United States at the time of recording.

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We have a fun show ahead of you today. Dan Gershoni, creator of Angor, the Bitcoin and Noster-based crowdfunding platform joins us to talk about that and much more.

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and a reminder folks if you are listening to the show on apple or spotify first of all thank you

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for listening but i would urge you to hit pause and switch over to the fountain podcasting app

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where you can earn some sats and support the value for value revolution while you listen

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this show is streamed live on zap.stream and any other nosta client that supports streaming a

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Burgeoning List, QW.

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Clients such as Amethyst and Noster, the regulars.

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Fountain, a recent addition.

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And I believe, as of today, the Primal app as well.

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And QW, you've been paying attention.

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Is it really streaming live, Avi?

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I would like to believe that, yes.

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Because it seems like, you know, we've had that show with Curin

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And it seems like the DDoS attacks continue on, I believe, because, you know, it doesn't seem like we're streaming out right now.

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And that kind of brings me to a question in my mind.

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Are we putting too much on the backs of Zap.Stream?

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And Zap.Stream can obviously, like we talked with Kieran about, you can run your own instance of it, right?

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You can actually self-host.

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I wonder how that interacts, how that does with all those Amethyst, Noster, Fountain, Primal, all the aboves that would be streaming it live.

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Because it seems like we do seem to hit a bottleneck on Zap.Stream.

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And I wonder if it's just a server thing, if you need to unleash the server, or if it's just the popularity clearly is going to get bigger and bigger, right?

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So it's something where it's like, well, we have some Nostra issues, but that's okay.

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That's what we're doing.

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It's brand new.

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We're all testing it.

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Another thing with Nostra, well, anything to add to that, Avi, as far as the primal?

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Because it's a huge launch, but I guess my question is, is App.Stream ready for that launch?

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Yeah.

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I mean, just going back to something you said about the Kieran episode, where he told us that we can now run custom versions of ZapDot stream.

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In theory, it's all NIP 53 events, so it should work.

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Yeah, and I wonder if they handshake just like everybody else.

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It's curious.

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I did see that Million posted, put a note that, you know, he does recommend Zap.Stream.

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That was probably about 30 minutes ago.

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So it seems like that's the first step for anybody trying it out.

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But with the week-long, two-week-long, three-week-long attack that Kieran was getting on a server getting overran, it's something that we can do more.

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We can do more.

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Um, then, then so, but, but I do, I do not want to take away from the, the, the huge breaking, uh, primal.

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Uh, it's, I, in my opinion, the most widely used, the most polished, uh, Nostra client, um, along with fountain, I would say, um, those are the two most widely used.

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Um, fountain obviously would be in a different genre, more of, uh, the podcasting, making podcasting social.

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But I think those two are major ones.

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You know, Amethyst is Android-based.

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Nostr is iOS-based.

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So those cross-platforms is kind of a big deal user-wise.

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So, yeah, kudos to the Primal team.

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Looking forward to seeing the full features in effect.

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We did see that video.

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Alvi, you shared that video of it in actual action.

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And it looks awesome.

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So it's exactly what, you know, kind of what we've always been looking for.

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And we love to see the live user interactions, the live users apping, everybody using Nostre, making our live stream social, right?

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Yeah, for sure, QW.

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And you have been paying attention to Bitcoin and Nostre culture.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So the primal thing was this morning.

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That was a big deal.

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But culture corner, more vlogs, more vlogs.

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And we call them V-logs, Avi.

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The Nostriges call them V-logs.

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So we always got to make it ours.

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I did see something, and I touched on it last week where we talked about the data, the data consumption, and how the V-logs might be adding to that.

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Korn did a test yesterday.

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He ran Primal, TikTok, and NoStir for 20 minutes apiece.

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So he just did standard use for 20 minutes.

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Primal came in number one at 524 megabytes of use in 20 minutes.

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TikTok came in at 111 megabytes of use in 20 minutes.

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And NoStir has 69.4 megabytes of use in 20 minutes.

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That's a big difference.

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And I think ultimately what we're going to find over time is we need to do something about that.

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And the question is, how do you do it?

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So it's not a topic of today.

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It's something we need to think about, but that's an interesting one.

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Another thing, BitChats.

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They had the update.

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I actually made a hashtag.

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I made a room, PHX.

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I was chatting it up.

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Kali had a 9Q, I believe, was the room.

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You just do hashtag.

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Then you put this, whatever it is, let's say 9Q, and then you press teleport.

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And all of a sudden, you're in a chat group with however many people across the globe.

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So it has expanded from just your typical Bitcoin meetup, Bluetooth.

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Now the GeoHash or whatever is expanding and you can kind of jump around globally.

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So it's just what else is going to come.

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They're looking for developers to continue pushing this.

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It seems like there's some momentum.

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It's just kind of neat.

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It's an interesting interface because it's so basic.

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But there are also problems with it, just like anything.

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I mean, we're essentially, you know, it might be in the app store, like it's polished, but honestly, it's getting updated almost every two days.

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So it's really in beta mode.

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And that's just, that's it.

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Have you tried it?

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Yeah, I did.

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Not recently.

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I tried it last week, KW, when the five, there was a five hour window when the 21M geohash, a little corner, a little square.

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in the Pacific, right off the coast of New Zealand,

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was a hubbub of activity, and it was glorious.

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And then the spammers came in.

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The scammers came in.

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So it's going to be a game of whack-a-mole with spammers.

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Yeah, there's going to have to be some character limits too.

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There was a snake man in this room yesterday,

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and it was like, you know, the MS-DOS?

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I mean, it looked like you built the Doom logo out of MS-DOS,

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but it was a big old snake. And it just, every time you would, and that was his name.

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So every time you would comment, it would just be a big old block. That's a snake. And it's like,

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okay, this is, it's kind of ridiculous, but I'm here to try it out. So there's going to be some

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adjustments to clean it up. And I did notice when I tried to create a room, there's no vowels that

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allowed. So I tried to do Noster PHX, but I couldn't do an O. Then I tried to do Saguaro

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Citadel and I couldn't do an A. So yeah, there's something about the characters. It's limited.

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Yeah. I want to also, on that note, I don't know if this new room stuff is related to

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geohashes or it's a separate encoding scheme, but I did mention hexadecimal last week.

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I was wrong. I stand corrected. It is its own native base 32 encoding for geohashes. That's how it maps different points on the planet with different levels of granularity depending on how long that base 32, custom base 32 string is for geohashes.

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People lean on us for accurate information.

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I was off by 50%. Hexadecimal.

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This is why we're not credentialed journalists like the Bugle.

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Indeed.

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Anything else?

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That's it.

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Okay.

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You know what?

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Bitcoin Asia is going on.

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Domus did launch that, did announce that, and I believe it might be the NoteDeck version or just Domus version, but it is launching on Amethyst.

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So it sounds like-

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You mean on Android?

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On Android.

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On Android.

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Was it?

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Yeah, sorry.

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Sorry.

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I conflate him.

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I'm sorry, man.

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I'm not an Android guy.

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So it's another world.

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And honestly, it's interesting because, you know, everyone's talking about Google Play Store and Zap.Store.

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Well, you know, Google is planning on, I think, 2026 kind of removing any kind of sideloading all that Zap.Store type of material.

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And we'll see how that goes.

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So win Linux phone, Avi.

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We shall see.

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We are the moles in this whack-a-mole, essentially.

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That's right.

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And for our sermon today, QW, it's memple, not gatekeepers. In fiat land, fundraising means

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begging at velvet rope doorways while a committee weighs your soul on a spreadsheet. The term sheet

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reads like a prenup you sign with your dreams. Miss a quarter, miss the door. We can do better.

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sovereign fundraising is simply this the creator keeps their keys the backers keep theirs and

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promises are denominated in sats instead of slogans no gatekeepers just a memple some relays

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and a web of trust you pitch the people not the paper your roadmap is a signed note your progress

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report is a zap thread Settlement happens now not net 30 When the money is honest the relationships get honest Backers aren leads Their first customers day one evangelists future contributors The cap table becomes a village Because

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sat stream in both directions, feedback does too. Ship, iterate, repeat. If you can be deplatformed,

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your platform property. If you can be debanked, your bank inventory. Hold your keys and you hold

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your runway. Is it technical? A little. You learn to sign what you say and settle what you promise.

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But the philosophy is ancient. Keep your word, keep your craft, keep your freedom.

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Bitcoin is the spine, lightning is the pulse,

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Noster the town square.

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Reputation compounds, clout decays.

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So what are you waiting for?

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You can now build in the open, fund at the edges,

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and let your community route through you

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because you're reliable, not because you're loud.

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The fiat world sells attention.

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We cultivate alignment.

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keys up sats in ship truth and with that qw it's time to bring on our guest

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dan gershoni or if you read his name on noster danger shoni welcome dan

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hey avi can you hear me yes sir danger dan i like that danger dan

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You can't spell danger without Dan, right?

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Exactly.

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What I like to play with the words is,

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my name is Shawnee, Danger Shawnee.

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You know, like the Bond, James Bond thingy.

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Excellent.

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I knew this was going to be a good show, Dan.

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So, Dan, for folks who...

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Thanks for having me.

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Of course, our pleasure.

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So, Dan, for folks who are unfamiliar with you,

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Obviously, you've launched Angor, but why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself.

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Who was Danger Shoney before Angor?

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Okay.

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Before Angor, I was, I guess, just another Bitcoiner, a developer,

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who I've been in the space for some time.

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I saw the ICO boom.

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I built a multi-crypto wallet.

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So at the time, shitcoins were a thing.

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But I learned a lot about how the protocol works,

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how the Bitcoin code base works.

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And over time, I decided I want to work more and more on Bitcoin.

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so before Angor

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my brother and I

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we tried to build a lightning node

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in C Sharp

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we realized that's quite complicated

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and you need probably

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a big team and lots of funding

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and the business model

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is not so clear

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how you would make money on that

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so eventually

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I always had in the back of my mind

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to create something like Angor

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and so we decided to pivot

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and start building Angor

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a few years ago

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before that I guess I was just a software engineer

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working in London

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as a contractor

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when did the Bitcoin

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revelation happen?

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for me?

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somewhere around

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2015

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I read an Economist

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article about the technology

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I read an article about the technology

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that will kill the banks

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and that was quite interesting

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so I went there and that was about Bitcoin

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they were a bit optimistic

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back then I guess

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it didn't kill the banks

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not yet

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but it definitely offers an alternative

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economy

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or an alternative currency

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to what

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finance to what banks have to offer

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so that

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pick my interest was was that from the magazine the trust machine uh the the economist uh the

237
00:16:14,432 --> 00:16:19,752
trust machine how the technology behind bitcoin could change the world it it was an israeli

238
00:16:19,752 --> 00:16:26,592
website economy economy website uh called okay yeah but but it's i i kind of look into magazines

239
00:16:26,592 --> 00:16:35,232
and i knew 2015 uh october 31st uh they ran that issue so oh my my little magazine historian there

240
00:16:35,232 --> 00:16:37,252
but you know

241
00:16:37,252 --> 00:16:39,372
they tend to copy from other magazines

242
00:16:39,372 --> 00:16:41,412
it could be that it was based on

243
00:16:41,412 --> 00:16:43,272
another

244
00:16:43,272 --> 00:16:44,832
republished already article

245
00:16:44,832 --> 00:16:46,732
so

246
00:16:46,732 --> 00:16:49,032
once I read that article

247
00:16:49,032 --> 00:16:50,672
getting

248
00:16:50,672 --> 00:16:53,392
I immediately went to read the white

249
00:16:53,392 --> 00:16:55,452
paper and being

250
00:16:55,452 --> 00:16:57,052
I guess being a software engineer

251
00:16:57,052 --> 00:16:59,312
I sort of understood

252
00:16:59,312 --> 00:17:01,432
it more than

253
00:17:01,432 --> 00:17:03,052
anyone else would and

254
00:17:03,052 --> 00:17:05,152
that's it, that's how I started to go into

255
00:17:05,152 --> 00:17:07,032
be interested in Bitcoin.

256
00:17:08,872 --> 00:17:10,532
Why did it click for you?

257
00:17:10,532 --> 00:17:15,052
How are you prepared to receive Bitcoin?

258
00:17:17,992 --> 00:17:21,152
What clicked was the fact that

259
00:17:21,152 --> 00:17:24,452
programming, mathematics, cryptography

260
00:17:24,452 --> 00:17:26,092
could solve money, I guess.

261
00:17:26,192 --> 00:17:27,392
That's what was quite amazing.

262
00:17:29,632 --> 00:17:31,232
And it would actually work

263
00:17:31,232 --> 00:17:32,332
when you look at it,

264
00:17:32,392 --> 00:17:34,552
when you look at what was suggested

265
00:17:34,552 --> 00:17:37,192
in the white paper, it looked like it could actually work.

266
00:17:38,972 --> 00:17:41,072
But obviously, that was quite early still.

267
00:17:41,192 --> 00:17:42,532
Bitcoin wasn't worth much.

268
00:17:43,032 --> 00:17:45,252
And it was scrutinized a lot.

269
00:17:45,492 --> 00:17:49,412
And only the crazy guys would talk about Bitcoin.

270
00:17:51,532 --> 00:17:54,332
I remember I worked at the time at Blinkbox.

271
00:17:54,452 --> 00:17:55,992
It's a movie streaming company.

272
00:17:56,232 --> 00:17:57,452
And I was the Bitcoin guy.

273
00:17:57,452 --> 00:18:01,912
Every company event, I would always raise the hand.

274
00:18:01,912 --> 00:18:05,092
and the CEO would say, no, no, Dan, we are not accepting Bitcoin.

275
00:18:06,012 --> 00:18:06,552
Not yet.

276
00:18:07,332 --> 00:18:09,852
So I was the guy who was always trying to suggest,

277
00:18:10,612 --> 00:18:11,792
let's adopt Bitcoin.

278
00:18:13,232 --> 00:18:17,592
Are you more, I think your comments aged well.

279
00:18:23,072 --> 00:18:26,192
So Angor, Dan, oh, sorry, go ahead.

280
00:18:26,272 --> 00:18:27,432
Were you going to say something else?

281
00:18:27,752 --> 00:18:28,912
No, no, yeah, no.

282
00:18:28,912 --> 00:18:33,752
So, Angor, you said you started it three years ago.

283
00:18:33,792 --> 00:18:39,352
So, at that point, it probably was the first Bitcoin crowdfunding platform.

284
00:18:39,472 --> 00:18:41,532
I don't think Geyser is that old.

285
00:18:41,752 --> 00:18:43,012
Is that correct, Dan?

286
00:18:43,772 --> 00:18:47,852
No, we started the design of the protocol.

287
00:18:47,852 --> 00:18:52,872
So, we spent some time on the design itself and it had many variations.

288
00:18:54,512 --> 00:18:57,412
And you have to cover all the edge cases.

289
00:18:57,952 --> 00:19:01,052
The motto that guided us was how to protect the investor's funds.

290
00:19:01,352 --> 00:19:02,692
That was the most important thing.

291
00:19:03,592 --> 00:19:06,452
We looked at creating pools of funds.

292
00:19:07,232 --> 00:19:10,472
We looked at all kinds of ideas.

293
00:19:11,992 --> 00:19:14,032
And eventually, the only thing that really worked

294
00:19:14,032 --> 00:19:15,372
where your funds are really protected

295
00:19:15,372 --> 00:19:18,912
is a two-of-two multi-sig between the founder and the investor

296
00:19:18,912 --> 00:19:20,512
with no third party.

297
00:19:22,132 --> 00:19:25,132
Because if you have any third party in a space

298
00:19:25,132 --> 00:19:27,352
where all the players are unknown or anonymous,

299
00:19:27,412 --> 00:19:30,052
or you cannot trust them,

300
00:19:30,172 --> 00:19:32,292
then there is a big risk of collusion.

301
00:19:33,852 --> 00:19:36,012
So it has to be in such a way that

302
00:19:36,012 --> 00:19:40,852
the investor is always in control in some way

303
00:19:40,852 --> 00:19:43,812
without depending or relying on anyone else.

304
00:19:45,192 --> 00:19:47,272
You know, when you say two of two multi-sig down,

305
00:19:47,352 --> 00:19:50,112
the first thing I think about is a lightning channel, right?

306
00:19:50,752 --> 00:19:53,252
So is that essentially what you're doing,

307
00:19:53,252 --> 00:19:55,172
creating a lightning channel between the two?

308
00:19:55,172 --> 00:19:58,772
Because I, well, we can get into my experience with Angor in a bit,

309
00:19:58,912 --> 00:20:00,352
but yeah, go ahead, Dan.

310
00:20:00,352 --> 00:20:01,852
Is that essentially what it is?

311
00:20:03,572 --> 00:20:05,852
I mean, it's based on the same concept,

312
00:20:05,992 --> 00:20:08,512
and we took a lot of the ideas from Lightning.

313
00:20:09,572 --> 00:20:13,032
A lot of great ideas came from building Lightning and proposing Lightning.

314
00:20:13,672 --> 00:20:15,492
But it's not really a channel, I think.

315
00:20:15,492 --> 00:20:21,112
It's just you create many one-time channels, if you have to compare.

316
00:20:21,112 --> 00:20:26,732
because the way Ango works is we lock your Bitcoins into stages

317
00:20:26,732 --> 00:20:29,112
and those stages are basically time locks.

318
00:20:29,952 --> 00:20:31,612
So every stage is a UTXO

319
00:20:31,612 --> 00:20:34,232
and it's released over time to the founder.

320
00:20:34,432 --> 00:20:36,912
So every stage is a two-of-two multisig.

321
00:20:39,852 --> 00:20:41,232
So if anything, yeah,

322
00:20:41,332 --> 00:20:43,452
it's maybe the beginning of a lightning channel,

323
00:20:43,452 --> 00:20:46,732
but just with a one-time payment.

324
00:20:47,872 --> 00:20:47,992
Right.

325
00:20:48,672 --> 00:20:49,292
I'm just thinking,

326
00:20:49,292 --> 00:20:56,012
So now you have multiple, essentially, what are functionally lightning channels, these two of two multisigs.

327
00:20:56,252 --> 00:21:03,772
All you need is to sprinkle in some HDLCs and you have a full-blown routing network within each fundraise or something like that.

328
00:21:05,332 --> 00:21:09,772
This idea did kind of come up that every stage could be streamed.

329
00:21:10,792 --> 00:21:13,232
So imagine you have one month.

330
00:21:14,512 --> 00:21:16,992
Every stage is one month or a quarter even.

331
00:21:16,992 --> 00:21:19,812
and you don't have to get all the Bitcoin in advance

332
00:21:19,812 --> 00:21:21,072
for that stage.

333
00:21:21,112 --> 00:21:22,072
You could stream it.

334
00:21:22,452 --> 00:21:24,452
So even break it further down

335
00:21:24,452 --> 00:21:26,392
into smaller chunks of payments

336
00:21:26,392 --> 00:21:27,752
being sent to the founders.

337
00:21:28,492 --> 00:21:30,072
But then it becomes complicated.

338
00:21:31,932 --> 00:21:34,752
So I guess always start simple

339
00:21:34,752 --> 00:21:36,092
and then if there is demand,

340
00:21:36,092 --> 00:21:41,352
then innovate or increase the complexity

341
00:21:41,352 --> 00:21:43,332
and deliver based on demand.

342
00:21:44,372 --> 00:21:46,972
Yeah, Dan, also we've jumped right into the deeper.

343
00:21:46,992 --> 00:21:54,952
Maybe it would be helpful to take a step back and say, for a non-technical audience, what is Angor?

344
00:21:55,072 --> 00:21:58,532
What was your motivation behind creating?

345
00:21:58,552 --> 00:21:58,972
For me, Avi.

346
00:21:59,472 --> 00:22:01,552
Okay, so let's start on why.

347
00:22:01,652 --> 00:22:03,572
I'm a non-technical audience.

348
00:22:04,432 --> 00:22:05,432
Fair enough.

349
00:22:06,632 --> 00:22:15,472
So I remember the days of ICOs where, and that was on Ethereum, but it was still really cool where any project could raise money.

350
00:22:15,472 --> 00:22:18,352
and you could see live the funds going to the project.

351
00:22:19,472 --> 00:22:21,212
And there was no barrier to entry.

352
00:22:21,312 --> 00:22:22,992
Anyone could raise, anyone could invest

353
00:22:22,992 --> 00:22:24,732
and it was 24-7 globally.

354
00:22:25,732 --> 00:22:27,392
I thought that was really fantastic.

355
00:22:27,532 --> 00:22:28,052
It was amazing.

356
00:22:29,192 --> 00:22:31,312
The missing bit or the two missing bits

357
00:22:31,312 --> 00:22:33,672
were that it was on Ethereum

358
00:22:33,672 --> 00:22:36,052
which Ethereum is not really the money

359
00:22:36,052 --> 00:22:38,472
but that's a different discussion.

360
00:22:38,472 --> 00:22:39,812
And they were all lockpoles.

361
00:22:40,792 --> 00:22:41,692
That's the other thing, right?

362
00:22:42,132 --> 00:22:45,452
What was missing is investor accounts

363
00:22:45,472 --> 00:22:46,032
Accountability.

364
00:22:46,972 --> 00:22:47,972
Once the...

365
00:22:47,972 --> 00:22:49,512
Sorry, founder accountability.

366
00:22:49,752 --> 00:22:52,932
Once the founders or the project creators got their money

367
00:22:52,932 --> 00:22:55,732
and they gave some shitcoin in return,

368
00:22:56,152 --> 00:22:57,432
but that was just empty promises.

369
00:22:57,592 --> 00:22:58,212
It had no value.

370
00:22:58,452 --> 00:23:00,752
The actual value was locked in the funds that they got.

371
00:23:01,572 --> 00:23:03,852
So once they get the Bitcoin or the Ethereum or whatever,

372
00:23:03,852 --> 00:23:07,772
then they lose incentive to build or deliver or produce anything.

373
00:23:09,592 --> 00:23:13,532
And I think a lot of money was lost that way

374
00:23:13,532 --> 00:23:17,152
because there was a lot of investment back then.

375
00:23:17,752 --> 00:23:20,132
Millions went into projects, right?

376
00:23:21,552 --> 00:23:30,024
So inspired by that I figured that we could do better We could create protocols where the accountability is built into the protocol

377
00:23:31,324 --> 00:23:34,144
So yeah, over time, it got me thinking.

378
00:23:34,464 --> 00:23:37,884
And then eventually we started to think about how we could implement that on Bitcoin.

379
00:23:42,664 --> 00:23:45,944
So yeah, any questions on that part?

380
00:23:48,824 --> 00:23:49,804
That's great.

381
00:23:49,804 --> 00:24:16,744
No, I do. The timing is, you know, three years ago, how much was this? You know, I remember the trucker deal where, what was it? GoFundMe got pulled. There was, people were trying to send Fiat to support these trucker strike in Canada. And the GoFundMe gets pulled down. And it's not something that was a singular occurrence. It happened multiple times.

382
00:24:16,744 --> 00:24:30,504
And I think to Avi's sermon, how important a platform, not a platform, a protocol would be in this funding and actually trying to give to a cause.

383
00:24:31,064 --> 00:24:34,064
I mean, it's just basically uncensorable, right?

384
00:24:34,864 --> 00:24:36,564
It can't be taken down.

385
00:24:37,064 --> 00:24:40,124
And there's no CEO of this protocol.

386
00:24:41,504 --> 00:24:42,204
Yeah, absolutely.

387
00:24:42,584 --> 00:24:44,184
You cannot take anything down.

388
00:24:44,184 --> 00:24:46,144
It's like you can't take down Bitcoin.

389
00:24:46,144 --> 00:24:53,444
So I guess we should try to build such products

390
00:24:53,444 --> 00:24:55,604
that they are all decentralized.

391
00:24:55,844 --> 00:24:57,064
I know it's a word that is used a lot,

392
00:24:57,304 --> 00:25:00,644
but it's a product that you cannot take down.

393
00:25:00,764 --> 00:25:01,644
It's a protocol, really.

394
00:25:01,804 --> 00:25:03,364
It's a wallet that you download the software

395
00:25:03,364 --> 00:25:04,984
and you can do whatever you want with it.

396
00:25:05,724 --> 00:25:09,324
And even you can fork it and change it however you want.

397
00:25:10,564 --> 00:25:15,384
I strongly believe that's the way we should be trying to build software.

398
00:25:16,144 --> 00:25:23,364
permissionless money uh permissionless uh crowdsourcing or funding uh that's they they

399
00:25:23,364 --> 00:25:32,084
go hand in hand right yeah yeah yeah uh when you think about so was there when so were you familiar

400
00:25:32,084 --> 00:25:38,924
with that that trucker strike i am i am yes i i remember and and were you developing this before

401
00:25:38,924 --> 00:25:39,624
or after that?

402
00:25:40,084 --> 00:25:41,084
It's not related.

403
00:25:41,304 --> 00:25:42,744
I didn't...

404
00:25:42,744 --> 00:25:45,364
I'm not saying related.

405
00:25:45,604 --> 00:25:47,524
I'm just saying when you say something like that,

406
00:25:47,564 --> 00:25:50,204
you're like, oh, this fixes that.

407
00:25:50,744 --> 00:25:51,624
Yeah, if I'm honest...

408
00:25:51,624 --> 00:25:52,364
Just like Bitcoin.

409
00:25:52,564 --> 00:25:53,604
It didn't make me think,

410
00:25:53,724 --> 00:25:55,184
oh, we need something like that

411
00:25:55,184 --> 00:25:57,484
because of what happens with the trackers

412
00:25:57,484 --> 00:25:59,524
and the fact that they were censored.

413
00:26:00,024 --> 00:26:02,924
It was obvious to me before that they were censored,

414
00:26:03,004 --> 00:26:03,904
that they could be censored.

415
00:26:05,084 --> 00:26:07,944
The timing of building Angor is just that

416
00:26:07,944 --> 00:26:12,544
It was exactly the right moment in my life to start building it.

417
00:26:13,784 --> 00:26:17,304
As I said, I had this idea quite a while back already.

418
00:26:18,084 --> 00:26:24,024
And it just fit really well three years ago to start designing it and building it.

419
00:26:27,244 --> 00:26:33,524
Yeah, and not only that, with that trucker in the bank accounts,

420
00:26:33,524 --> 00:26:37,684
the government were seizing the people.

421
00:26:38,004 --> 00:26:42,564
Basically, they essentially took the data

422
00:26:42,564 --> 00:26:44,204
or the information of the people

423
00:26:44,204 --> 00:26:45,964
that were actually donating to this.

424
00:26:46,404 --> 00:26:47,904
When you donate to Angor,

425
00:26:48,464 --> 00:26:50,424
is this something that's anonymous?

426
00:26:51,624 --> 00:26:53,764
I mean, how anonymous is it?

427
00:26:54,004 --> 00:26:56,244
Or can you choose to be anonymous?

428
00:26:57,044 --> 00:26:58,624
Oh, yeah, that's a good question.

429
00:26:58,624 --> 00:26:59,784
well

430
00:26:59,784 --> 00:27:03,064
I don't think

431
00:27:03,064 --> 00:27:04,344
privacy is that

432
00:27:04,344 --> 00:27:07,144
so crucial when it comes to investing

433
00:27:07,144 --> 00:27:09,084
because you want to see

434
00:27:09,084 --> 00:27:10,104
who are the other investors

435
00:27:10,104 --> 00:27:12,244
or you at least want to see that they exist

436
00:27:12,244 --> 00:27:14,124
and they allocated funds

437
00:27:14,124 --> 00:27:16,724
for the project that you also invested in

438
00:27:16,724 --> 00:27:17,964
right

439
00:27:17,964 --> 00:27:20,684
but with Angle you do create a new wallet

440
00:27:20,684 --> 00:27:22,424
and you get a new

441
00:27:22,424 --> 00:27:23,324
Nostra identity

442
00:27:23,324 --> 00:27:26,644
that is linked

443
00:27:26,644 --> 00:27:27,804
to that wallet

444
00:27:27,804 --> 00:27:32,784
and you can choose if you want to reveal

445
00:27:32,784 --> 00:27:35,444
and then you create a transaction on chain from that wallet

446
00:27:35,444 --> 00:27:38,624
so any funds that you send to your wallet

447
00:27:38,624 --> 00:27:40,964
that is the Angle wallet

448
00:27:40,964 --> 00:27:42,564
and then create from that a transaction

449
00:27:42,564 --> 00:27:44,084
that is an investment transaction

450
00:27:44,084 --> 00:27:45,144
using chain analysis

451
00:27:45,144 --> 00:27:47,724
I guess you could maybe try to work out

452
00:27:47,724 --> 00:27:50,684
who that person is who invested

453
00:27:50,684 --> 00:27:54,524
so the same privacy assumptions

454
00:27:54,524 --> 00:27:56,664
that you have on a normal Bitcoin transaction I guess

455
00:27:56,664 --> 00:27:57,544
without mixing

456
00:27:57,544 --> 00:28:00,764
however with the Noster part

457
00:28:00,764 --> 00:28:02,024
you don't

458
00:28:02,024 --> 00:28:03,444
you don't link

459
00:28:03,444 --> 00:28:05,704
you don't use your regular

460
00:28:05,704 --> 00:28:08,004
your main Noster account

461
00:28:08,004 --> 00:28:09,964
another one is created for you

462
00:28:09,964 --> 00:28:12,384
and you can choose to link it

463
00:28:12,384 --> 00:28:13,324
or not to link it

464
00:28:13,324 --> 00:28:16,784
so I think

465
00:28:16,784 --> 00:28:18,464
you can try to be private

466
00:28:18,464 --> 00:28:20,464
by design and you can reveal yourself

467
00:28:20,464 --> 00:28:21,124
if you want it

468
00:28:21,124 --> 00:28:24,004
another very cool thing with Ango

469
00:28:24,004 --> 00:28:26,024
is that you could also try to raise privately

470
00:28:26,024 --> 00:28:26,804
because

471
00:28:26,804 --> 00:28:30,584
by deploying private relays

472
00:28:30,584 --> 00:28:33,964
and only limiting the accounts

473
00:28:33,964 --> 00:28:35,264
that are allowed to go on that relays,

474
00:28:35,384 --> 00:28:37,864
then you could raise in a private way

475
00:28:37,864 --> 00:28:38,704
that nobody knows.

476
00:28:38,884 --> 00:28:40,624
Nobody will even see the project

477
00:28:40,624 --> 00:28:42,184
being created on Noster

478
00:28:42,184 --> 00:28:45,464
because that relay is only allowed

479
00:28:45,464 --> 00:28:47,984
to those who are given access to invest.

480
00:28:50,144 --> 00:28:52,324
How was your experience, Albie?

481
00:28:52,444 --> 00:28:54,784
Well, I was actually going to ask Dan

482
00:28:54,784 --> 00:28:57,824
to walk through a simple concrete example

483
00:28:57,824 --> 00:29:02,184
and we can use my experience with Angor.

484
00:29:02,344 --> 00:29:03,364
So as some of you,

485
00:29:03,524 --> 00:29:06,464
or many of you have heard on us saying on previous shows,

486
00:29:07,124 --> 00:29:08,504
Finding Home episode three,

487
00:29:08,844 --> 00:29:10,604
which I will be filming in Paraguay,

488
00:29:10,724 --> 00:29:14,064
I have done the fundraise using Angor

489
00:29:14,064 --> 00:29:18,304
and actually just closed it out today, Dan.

490
00:29:18,344 --> 00:29:21,184
I know it was a little over 90% complete

491
00:29:21,184 --> 00:29:24,284
and then I had to just top it up

492
00:29:24,284 --> 00:29:26,784
before the end date, which was in a couple of days.

493
00:29:27,284 --> 00:29:30,244
But so Dan, maybe do you want to use that

494
00:29:30,244 --> 00:29:32,904
as an illustrative example and step,

495
00:29:33,104 --> 00:29:36,004
maybe walk through, again, our non-technical audience,

496
00:29:36,424 --> 00:29:38,524
folks who might be interested in funding any,

497
00:29:38,724 --> 00:29:39,924
you know, maybe they're starting a company,

498
00:29:40,044 --> 00:29:42,244
maybe they're starting a show like I am

499
00:29:42,244 --> 00:29:44,424
or some other venture, right?

500
00:29:44,464 --> 00:29:46,704
How they would go through this and what exactly happens?

501
00:29:46,744 --> 00:29:48,164
Because one of the, as you said,

502
00:29:48,224 --> 00:29:51,564
one of the things I noticed is Finding Home episode three

503
00:29:51,564 --> 00:29:54,604
is given an end pub when that project is created.

504
00:29:55,084 --> 00:29:57,704
And that is actually an end pub you can look up on NOSTA

505
00:29:57,704 --> 00:29:58,904
and has all the project details.

506
00:29:59,484 --> 00:30:02,044
So I think it'll be helpful if you walk through it step by step

507
00:30:02,044 --> 00:30:03,284
for folks to understand.

508
00:30:04,644 --> 00:30:05,624
Sure. Okay.

509
00:30:06,064 --> 00:30:08,064
And by the way, the fact you had to top up,

510
00:30:08,124 --> 00:30:10,424
I think that's quite normal

511
00:30:10,424 --> 00:30:12,044
because very often in investment,

512
00:30:12,384 --> 00:30:14,364
you bring your own money as well.

513
00:30:15,164 --> 00:30:18,684
And then others join you and add top up to yours.

514
00:30:18,684 --> 00:30:21,224
So that's totally fine, I think.

515
00:30:21,564 --> 00:30:22,944
Yeah, for sure.

516
00:30:24,404 --> 00:30:26,584
So, yeah, if we go step by step.

517
00:30:26,884 --> 00:30:27,704
Congratulations, Avi.

518
00:30:28,804 --> 00:30:29,344
Thank you.

519
00:30:29,364 --> 00:30:31,104
And thank you to Dan and the Angor team,

520
00:30:31,184 --> 00:30:35,124
who are also very generous in helping me out for that.

521
00:30:37,524 --> 00:30:37,984
Go ahead, Dan.

522
00:30:37,984 --> 00:30:38,404
You're welcome.

523
00:30:39,424 --> 00:30:44,124
Before I go into talking about how you, step by step,

524
00:30:44,324 --> 00:30:45,824
how you would invest,

525
00:30:46,824 --> 00:30:50,744
I just wanted to mention that I have a bit of a marketing budget.

526
00:30:51,564 --> 00:30:54,804
And I think I realized that the best way to use that budget

527
00:30:54,804 --> 00:30:58,504
is by investing in companies or people in the space

528
00:30:58,504 --> 00:30:59,424
that are doing something.

529
00:30:59,904 --> 00:31:04,244
So the allocation that I gave for your project

530
00:31:04,244 --> 00:31:05,664
or for your movie, Avi,

531
00:31:05,884 --> 00:31:10,084
that was partly selfish because I want to promote Angkor,

532
00:31:10,544 --> 00:31:12,504
but also because I really liked your idea.

533
00:31:12,704 --> 00:31:13,764
So it's a win-win.

534
00:31:15,064 --> 00:31:18,944
And I'm hoping to do more of that with other people and projects.

535
00:31:18,944 --> 00:31:27,544
oh you open a can of worms dan you'll have people knocking down breaking down your door after this

536
00:31:27,544 --> 00:31:30,124
looking for my vlog funding now

537
00:31:30,124 --> 00:31:37,244
it's great but you know it might not just be me maybe i need funding for the data to watch

538
00:31:37,244 --> 00:31:43,064
if we can get other bitcoiners to chip in a bit and then suddenly you have the crowds

539
00:31:43,064 --> 00:31:47,384
funding people who are doing stuff in content creators.

540
00:31:48,364 --> 00:31:54,184
So you need those who start the effort

541
00:31:54,184 --> 00:31:55,444
and then others join.

542
00:31:57,224 --> 00:31:58,104
But sure, of course,

543
00:31:58,404 --> 00:32:02,924
if you have a nice vlog, QW, let me know.

544
00:32:04,924 --> 00:32:06,724
I think people hear me now.

545
00:32:08,304 --> 00:32:10,264
Once a week for 90 minutes.

546
00:32:11,124 --> 00:32:11,524
Yes.

547
00:32:11,944 --> 00:32:12,964
Far less data.

548
00:32:13,064 --> 00:32:20,244
So let's go about how, I will go step by step on how do you invest with Angor.

549
00:32:20,844 --> 00:32:26,544
So first of all, a founder, let's call it the content creator, the founder, the creator of a project,

550
00:32:27,424 --> 00:32:28,984
they need to create a wallet on Angor.

551
00:32:30,284 --> 00:32:36,124
And they need to top up this wallet with enough Bitcoin to create a transaction on-chain.

552
00:32:37,744 --> 00:32:42,204
Because every investment requires an initial transaction on-chain.

553
00:32:42,204 --> 00:32:56,364
And this is sort of a spam filter that we won't have the protocol being flooded with fake projects or requests.

554
00:32:57,744 --> 00:33:06,444
So once you have a wallet with some Bitcoin, then you go ahead and you define the stages of your deliveries.

555
00:33:06,764 --> 00:33:08,084
And those are based on time.

556
00:33:08,084 --> 00:33:16,284
let's take for example for avi you had three stages if i'm not mistaken that's right and

557
00:33:16,284 --> 00:33:25,264
we i think it was a month apart anyway as you you decide how much as a creator as a founder you

558
00:33:25,264 --> 00:33:31,244
decide what is the distance between each stage and how many stages and how much you want to raise

559
00:33:31,244 --> 00:33:33,404
and then you go ahead and deploy that.

560
00:33:35,424 --> 00:33:36,524
Three things will happen.

561
00:33:36,824 --> 00:33:39,244
A metadata event will go on Noster,

562
00:33:39,844 --> 00:33:41,744
which holds the data,

563
00:33:41,904 --> 00:33:43,164
so this data cannot be changed.

564
00:33:45,084 --> 00:33:47,104
A profile is created for the account,

565
00:33:47,624 --> 00:33:48,824
for the founder's account,

566
00:33:49,024 --> 00:33:50,883
so a new profile is created on Noster

567
00:33:50,883 --> 00:33:54,264
and a transaction is created on the blockchain

568
00:33:54,264 --> 00:33:57,844
with an op return of the event ID of the metadata

569
00:33:57,844 --> 00:34:00,984
and this sort of links the Noster data to the blockchain.

570
00:34:01,244 --> 00:34:03,784
so you can't temper with the data

571
00:34:03,784 --> 00:34:07,764
the data is the stages

572
00:34:07,764 --> 00:34:08,804
the target

573
00:34:08,804 --> 00:34:11,544
the date of the stages and so on

574
00:34:11,544 --> 00:34:13,264
the public keys that are being used

575
00:34:13,264 --> 00:34:17,584
once you have

576
00:34:17,584 --> 00:34:19,864
a project being created

577
00:34:19,864 --> 00:34:21,564
then you go and you market your project

578
00:34:21,564 --> 00:34:23,344
to the Bitcoin community

579
00:34:23,344 --> 00:34:24,383
and ask for funding

580
00:34:24,383 --> 00:34:27,704
the idea is that you would try to create

581
00:34:27,704 --> 00:34:29,784
the stages in such a way

582
00:34:29,784 --> 00:34:32,564
that they will give as much guarantees to a founder,

583
00:34:32,804 --> 00:34:36,004
to an investor that you can deliver on your project

584
00:34:36,004 --> 00:34:39,204
without the investor risking their funds.

585
00:34:39,944 --> 00:34:42,604
For example, if you take 90% of all the funds

586
00:34:42,604 --> 00:34:45,404
in the first stage or the first two stages,

587
00:34:45,544 --> 00:34:47,524
then it's riskier for an investor.

588
00:34:48,544 --> 00:34:52,184
So you probably want to apply some game theory here

589
00:34:52,184 --> 00:34:56,444
and try to create as many stages as you can

590
00:34:56,444 --> 00:35:02,284
without it being disrupting your delivery plan of the project.

591
00:35:04,284 --> 00:35:17,696
Okay so once we have that investors can come and they can invest So an investor will also have to create a wallet an Angor wallet The investor will also get a profile on Noster

592
00:35:19,775 --> 00:35:25,035
And then they go and they find a project on Angor or Angor Hub.

593
00:35:25,835 --> 00:35:27,315
We'll talk about Angor Hub in a second.

594
00:35:27,315 --> 00:35:30,775
And then they can just create the transactions that invest in your project.

595
00:35:30,775 --> 00:35:33,775
the process of the investment

596
00:35:33,775 --> 00:35:34,775
is a

597
00:35:34,775 --> 00:35:36,416
there are three steps

598
00:35:36,416 --> 00:35:38,175
there is a request

599
00:35:38,175 --> 00:35:39,715
that goes to the founder

600
00:35:39,715 --> 00:35:42,175
the founder then approves that request

601
00:35:42,175 --> 00:35:44,595
and sends back the signatures

602
00:35:44,595 --> 00:35:46,995
that are needed for a penalty transaction

603
00:35:46,995 --> 00:35:49,715
once the investor has that penalty transaction

604
00:35:49,715 --> 00:35:51,175
then they can go on chain

605
00:35:51,175 --> 00:35:53,416
and they are considered invested

606
00:35:53,416 --> 00:35:57,655
I will touch briefly at the penalty transaction

607
00:35:57,655 --> 00:35:59,856
the penalty transaction are Bitcoin signatures

608
00:35:59,856 --> 00:36:02,416
That ties into the two of the multisig.

609
00:36:03,555 --> 00:36:07,535
That's a spending branch on the taproot

610
00:36:07,535 --> 00:36:10,095
that allows an investor to take back their funds.

611
00:36:10,436 --> 00:36:15,295
So if Avi Burra, he buys a Lambo with the first stage,

612
00:36:16,215 --> 00:36:18,335
and then he's in breach of his...

613
00:36:18,335 --> 00:36:19,835
100% what he's going to do.

614
00:36:22,655 --> 00:36:24,696
So I can go and I can...

615
00:36:24,696 --> 00:36:29,936
So I can go back to Angle to my wallet as an investor

616
00:36:29,936 --> 00:36:32,055
and with three clicks of a button

617
00:36:32,055 --> 00:36:33,055
and I'm out of the project

618
00:36:33,055 --> 00:36:34,995
and I get the rest of my funding back.

619
00:36:35,175 --> 00:36:36,475
So let's say one stage is gone,

620
00:36:36,475 --> 00:36:38,356
I can get back the other two stages.

621
00:36:39,275 --> 00:36:43,196
However, those two stages are locked into a time lock as well.

622
00:36:44,436 --> 00:36:45,896
The duration of that time lock

623
00:36:45,896 --> 00:36:48,155
is decided in the beginning of the project

624
00:36:48,155 --> 00:36:51,196
by the creator of the project, the founder.

625
00:36:54,696 --> 00:36:59,436
So this is how Angular works at a high level.

626
00:37:02,416 --> 00:37:09,015
The reason we are assigning Noster accounts to the users

627
00:37:09,015 --> 00:37:12,715
is that the idea was that the creator of the project,

628
00:37:13,095 --> 00:37:17,255
they will give updates using the project's new account, created account.

629
00:37:17,735 --> 00:37:21,015
So any investor, they can follow that account.

630
00:37:21,015 --> 00:37:23,255
they don't have to follow the account

631
00:37:23,255 --> 00:37:25,275
the Noster account of the creator

632
00:37:25,275 --> 00:37:27,456
itself, they follow the project

633
00:37:27,456 --> 00:37:29,416
account and there they can get

634
00:37:29,416 --> 00:37:31,215
updates, they can reply, they can

635
00:37:31,215 --> 00:37:32,675
interact and so on

636
00:37:32,675 --> 00:37:34,975
let's say if a founder missed

637
00:37:34,975 --> 00:37:37,416
a deliverable

638
00:37:37,416 --> 00:37:39,235
the time lock has expired

639
00:37:39,235 --> 00:37:41,175
and they didn't deliver what they were

640
00:37:41,175 --> 00:37:42,495
what they promised

641
00:37:42,495 --> 00:37:45,356
so I guess that will be a discussion between

642
00:37:45,356 --> 00:37:47,555
the founder and the investors

643
00:37:47,555 --> 00:37:49,335
you know, projects always

644
00:37:49,335 --> 00:37:51,196
they are always late

645
00:37:51,196 --> 00:37:52,835
so a founder will say

646
00:37:52,835 --> 00:37:54,356
hey we are late because of ABC

647
00:37:54,356 --> 00:37:56,115
and so on

648
00:37:56,115 --> 00:37:57,515
so give us another chance

649
00:37:57,515 --> 00:37:58,436
or don't put up your money

650
00:37:58,436 --> 00:38:03,215
this idea is

651
00:38:03,215 --> 00:38:05,715
it happened to me in the past

652
00:38:05,715 --> 00:38:07,196
quite often that founders

653
00:38:07,196 --> 00:38:09,795
would just stop answering

654
00:38:09,795 --> 00:38:12,275
or you have to try to

655
00:38:12,275 --> 00:38:15,755
send messages all the time

656
00:38:15,755 --> 00:38:18,755
try to create other points of pressure

657
00:38:18,755 --> 00:38:20,035
to get communication.

658
00:38:21,155 --> 00:38:23,896
Basically, once you gave all the money

659
00:38:23,896 --> 00:38:27,115
and you don't have any leverage,

660
00:38:27,575 --> 00:38:31,035
then you don't have any ability

661
00:38:31,035 --> 00:38:33,215
to influence a founder.

662
00:38:33,215 --> 00:38:37,535
So by having the ability to take back your funds,

663
00:38:38,396 --> 00:38:40,916
founders would never ignore investors,

664
00:38:41,135 --> 00:38:42,135
if that makes sense.

665
00:38:44,416 --> 00:38:46,115
But after the stages expire,

666
00:38:46,376 --> 00:38:47,735
that leverage is gone, right?

667
00:38:47,735 --> 00:38:49,916
at that point once the funds are claimed.

668
00:38:50,635 --> 00:38:51,215
But they're deliverable.

669
00:38:51,215 --> 00:38:52,175
For that stage, yes.

670
00:38:52,495 --> 00:38:53,315
Yeah, got it.

671
00:38:53,416 --> 00:38:53,555
Okay.

672
00:38:56,755 --> 00:38:59,456
I think I described sort of the high level

673
00:38:59,456 --> 00:39:00,675
of Adi Angra protocol.

674
00:39:01,295 --> 00:39:04,075
If you have questions about that,

675
00:39:05,995 --> 00:39:07,575
I might have missed something.

676
00:39:08,315 --> 00:39:10,155
You know, I'm going to defer to QW here

677
00:39:10,155 --> 00:39:11,215
because I've used it

678
00:39:11,215 --> 00:39:14,436
and I've helped the folks who were investing

679
00:39:14,436 --> 00:39:16,015
with their questions.

680
00:39:16,015 --> 00:39:19,876
And then when I had to top up, I was a quote unquote investor as well.

681
00:39:19,936 --> 00:39:21,275
So I've seen both sides of it.

682
00:39:21,635 --> 00:39:26,175
So I was, while you were talking, I was browsing Angor.io.

683
00:39:26,675 --> 00:39:30,095
And I do recommend anybody listening to Dan while he talks.

684
00:39:30,255 --> 00:39:35,115
There's a lot on this, a lot of information that he's, you know, might be some buzzwords,

685
00:39:35,235 --> 00:39:38,215
might be, you know, like you talk about the wallet, it's nice to visualize things.

686
00:39:38,376 --> 00:39:41,555
So it's kind of a learning curve for me.

687
00:39:41,655 --> 00:39:45,195
So I'm kind of playing along as I'm listening.

688
00:39:45,916 --> 00:39:47,795
Avi, how was the wallet for you?

689
00:39:48,335 --> 00:39:50,835
Because I understand the first thing you do is you make your wallet

690
00:39:50,835 --> 00:39:54,035
and it automatically makes an in-pub.

691
00:39:54,555 --> 00:39:56,255
How was your wallet experience?

692
00:39:56,715 --> 00:40:01,376
Avi, it's okay to criticize, by the way, 100%.

693
00:40:01,376 --> 00:40:04,135
Yeah, because it says there's a beta, a test,

694
00:40:04,215 --> 00:40:06,055
and then a beta version, correct?

695
00:40:06,215 --> 00:40:09,135
We are still building and all this feedback is really great.

696
00:40:09,835 --> 00:40:10,235
Yeah.

697
00:40:10,876 --> 00:40:11,376
Don't hold back.

698
00:40:12,075 --> 00:40:14,575
I do have feedback, not on this process, Dan,

699
00:40:14,575 --> 00:40:17,476
just on the general UX, and I understand the trade-off

700
00:40:17,476 --> 00:40:18,936
that you've had to make, right?

701
00:40:18,956 --> 00:40:22,075
Security versus good user, like being a seamless user experience.

702
00:40:22,315 --> 00:40:23,956
But we can get to that in a second.

703
00:40:24,456 --> 00:40:25,295
From the wallet...

704
00:40:25,295 --> 00:40:27,695
The end game was, it was successful for you, Avi.

705
00:40:27,815 --> 00:40:28,755
So that's great.

706
00:40:28,936 --> 00:40:29,416
Yeah, exactly.

707
00:40:29,856 --> 00:40:30,255
Absolutely.

708
00:40:30,456 --> 00:40:34,436
It was a roaring success, my experiment with Angor.

709
00:40:34,535 --> 00:40:35,956
Well, I haven't received all the funds.

710
00:40:36,295 --> 00:40:37,735
So maybe I should hold my horses.

711
00:40:40,635 --> 00:40:42,396
Dan's driving your funds right now.

712
00:40:42,396 --> 00:40:43,295
It's called the Lambo.

713
00:40:44,575 --> 00:40:47,916
I could still pull them back

714
00:40:47,916 --> 00:40:52,755
the wallet experience itself

715
00:40:52,755 --> 00:40:54,436
yeah you go in there

716
00:40:54,436 --> 00:40:56,215
and you click on wallet

717
00:40:56,215 --> 00:40:57,535
and you click on create wallet

718
00:40:57,535 --> 00:41:00,755
it flashes up your seed words

719
00:41:00,755 --> 00:41:01,655
you write them down

720
00:41:01,655 --> 00:41:02,956
you say okay

721
00:41:02,956 --> 00:41:03,916
you fund

722
00:41:03,916 --> 00:41:05,335
you wait for one confirmation

723
00:41:05,335 --> 00:41:06,535
and it's there

724
00:41:06,535 --> 00:41:07,095
it's all there

725
00:41:07,095 --> 00:41:07,976
I mean it's a hot wallet

726
00:41:07,976 --> 00:41:08,755
right obviously

727
00:41:08,755 --> 00:41:10,956
in Angor

728
00:41:10,956 --> 00:41:11,495
so you don't want to put

729
00:41:11,495 --> 00:41:12,896
your life savings in it

730
00:41:13,615 --> 00:41:15,995
But no, pretty seamless.

731
00:41:16,315 --> 00:41:18,476
Both on the, I had to create two wallets.

732
00:41:18,615 --> 00:41:21,995
One as a founder, as the creator of this, right?

733
00:41:22,055 --> 00:41:24,775
And then the other as an investor

734
00:41:24,775 --> 00:41:26,535
to do the top up at the very end.

735
00:41:26,655 --> 00:41:28,675
And both cases, it was super easy.

736
00:41:30,876 --> 00:41:32,815
Okay, and then a second question, Avi.

737
00:41:33,095 --> 00:41:35,035
I think this is the best approach to this.

738
00:41:35,795 --> 00:41:37,976
When you describe your project,

739
00:41:38,936 --> 00:41:40,575
how was filling it out?

740
00:41:40,575 --> 00:41:44,295
What kind of brainstorming did you do to kind of sell?

741
00:41:44,535 --> 00:41:48,755
I mean, essentially you're selling yourself or selling your project to investors, right?

742
00:41:49,055 --> 00:41:50,416
Yeah, there are different sections.

743
00:41:50,715 --> 00:41:51,655
How was that process?

744
00:41:51,755 --> 00:41:51,995
Oh, yeah.

745
00:41:52,055 --> 00:41:52,775
Here's some feedback.

746
00:41:52,956 --> 00:41:56,675
Maybe you guys have fixed it in the time that I did it and not.

747
00:41:56,795 --> 00:41:59,615
But, you know, there are different sections you can fill in.

748
00:42:00,555 --> 00:42:03,335
There's the basic blurb that describes the project.

749
00:42:03,335 --> 00:42:10,335
Then there's more detail where you can talk about the different phases of investment, what it entails.

750
00:42:10,335 --> 00:42:35,835
In my case, it's a show. I broke it into three phases, pre-production, filming, and post-production. Pre-production is everything, all the research and all the legwork that needs to happen before you actually get to the place. Identifying the restaurants, the locations, aligning with the filming crew and all of that stuff. So that was pre-production. I explained that. I explained the filming part, which is the most straightforward.

751
00:42:35,835 --> 00:42:40,075
right and then the post-production which is all the editing and so on which our friends in israel

752
00:42:40,075 --> 00:42:44,795
are doing laha venoa which we talked about this previous episode so i mentioned all of that

753
00:42:44,795 --> 00:42:51,976
and then and then i talked about what quote-unquote benefits investors get above a certain sat

754
00:42:51,976 --> 00:42:57,916
threshold i think it's two million you get an associate producer tag above three million you're

755
00:42:57,916 --> 00:43:03,135
an executive producer anything below two million you get a special thanks in the titles um so

756
00:43:03,135 --> 00:43:04,916
So basically, I explained all of that.

757
00:43:05,055 --> 00:43:06,595
I think the one bit of feedback, Dan,

758
00:43:06,635 --> 00:43:07,735
and maybe you fixed this already,

759
00:43:08,275 --> 00:43:11,476
is the markdown editor that you have to write all of this.

760
00:43:11,555 --> 00:43:12,815
It's a bit clunky, right?

761
00:43:12,815 --> 00:43:13,936
It keeps jumping around

762
00:43:13,936 --> 00:43:17,396
when you're trying to create these markdown blocks.

763
00:43:18,155 --> 00:43:20,456
But that was like a month, month and a half ago

764
00:43:20,456 --> 00:43:22,695
when I, yeah, over a month and a half ago

765
00:43:22,695 --> 00:43:23,615
when I set this up.

766
00:43:25,615 --> 00:43:27,936
Yeah, I think some of the devs are quite busy

767
00:43:27,936 --> 00:43:31,896
on the profile creation or modification page.

768
00:43:31,896 --> 00:43:37,235
So probably some of the feedback you gave us was already fixed.

769
00:43:38,055 --> 00:43:39,896
And thanks for the feedback, by the way.

770
00:43:41,295 --> 00:43:43,936
Yeah, no, happy to see projects like this work out.

771
00:43:44,515 --> 00:43:46,655
But yeah, I mean, so Dan, from my perspective,

772
00:43:46,916 --> 00:43:48,795
obviously I haven't received the money yet

773
00:43:48,795 --> 00:43:50,956
because the first phase hasn't even closed,

774
00:43:51,255 --> 00:43:53,095
which it'll close in two or three days.

775
00:43:53,476 --> 00:43:56,376
But everything leading up to that, largely seamless.

776
00:43:57,115 --> 00:44:00,035
Now here's a question on that,

777
00:44:00,035 --> 00:44:04,215
which is, I understand the reason why it's this way, right?

778
00:44:05,015 --> 00:44:06,635
It's the two of two multi-sig,

779
00:44:06,835 --> 00:44:09,295
that's how you, and you have the time locks

780
00:44:09,295 --> 00:44:10,075
and all of that, right?

781
00:44:10,115 --> 00:44:11,235
So it's truly sovereign

782
00:44:11,235 --> 00:44:15,396
and it empowers both the fundraiser

783
00:44:15,396 --> 00:44:18,416
and the funders as well.

784
00:44:18,976 --> 00:44:19,956
Having said that,

785
00:44:20,715 --> 00:44:23,215
and this is what a couple of the people who funded this,

786
00:44:23,555 --> 00:44:25,635
sort of, they were kind of lost on this,

787
00:44:26,615 --> 00:44:29,956
which is, so they find the project on Angor

788
00:44:29,956 --> 00:44:34,495
the first thing they have to do is they have to create a wallet, right? So that's immediate

789
00:44:34,495 --> 00:44:39,695
touch point number one. So they have to create a wallet and then they have to fund the wallet.

790
00:44:39,695 --> 00:44:44,715
So that takes however long it takes to create the wallet and then wait for at least one

791
00:44:44,715 --> 00:44:49,135
confirmation. So best case scenario, we're talking, you know, a few minutes, but maybe,

792
00:44:49,135 --> 00:44:54,655
you know, a little longer, it could take 10, 20 minutes in some cases. That's step one. Step two,

793
00:44:54,655 --> 00:44:55,635
then they hit invest.

794
00:44:56,735 --> 00:44:59,275
Then I have to be around

795
00:44:59,275 --> 00:45:01,936
to accept that investment, right?

796
00:45:01,995 --> 00:45:02,595
So I have to,

797
00:45:02,896 --> 00:45:06,075
they send the funds to the project.

798
00:45:06,295 --> 00:45:07,055
Then they tell me,

799
00:45:07,115 --> 00:45:08,335
hey, I send the funds to the project.

800
00:45:08,535 --> 00:45:09,595
I go to my project.

801
00:45:09,976 --> 00:45:10,835
I look at my screen.

802
00:45:10,995 --> 00:45:12,815
I see a little notification

803
00:45:12,815 --> 00:45:15,215
that says accept funding.

804
00:45:15,436 --> 00:45:16,295
I hit accept.

805
00:45:16,936 --> 00:45:18,555
Then it goes back to them again

806
00:45:18,555 --> 00:45:20,976
and they have to hit invest on their screen

807
00:45:20,976 --> 00:45:22,916
and that's when it gets finalized, right?

808
00:45:23,135 --> 00:45:24,255
I understand why

809
00:45:24,255 --> 00:45:25,635
because it's a two-of-two multi-sig.

810
00:45:26,416 --> 00:45:28,155
But the question is,

811
00:45:28,356 --> 00:45:33,055
this user experience is a little challenging,

812
00:45:33,595 --> 00:45:35,476
especially if you are trying to move fast

813
00:45:35,476 --> 00:45:38,476
as both an investor and as a fundraiser,

814
00:45:38,615 --> 00:45:40,035
as a founder.

815
00:45:42,035 --> 00:45:44,215
It seems intentional though, right?

816
00:45:44,235 --> 00:45:45,795
If you have a true project,

817
00:45:45,916 --> 00:45:46,795
you have a real project,

818
00:45:46,896 --> 00:45:48,155
you have real investors,

819
00:45:48,515 --> 00:45:51,615
this is a very intentional act that's required,

820
00:45:51,615 --> 00:45:55,635
which lends to security of it too.

821
00:45:55,956 --> 00:45:56,515
Yeah, for sure.

822
00:45:56,936 --> 00:45:59,275
But just on that note,

823
00:45:59,356 --> 00:46:00,835
on the last step, right?

824
00:46:01,155 --> 00:46:03,315
Where the investor hits invest,

825
00:46:03,615 --> 00:46:04,396
they're like, okay, I'm done.

826
00:46:04,476 --> 00:46:05,075
I created a wallet.

827
00:46:05,275 --> 00:46:06,095
I funded my wallet

828
00:46:06,095 --> 00:46:06,735
and I hit invest.

829
00:46:06,795 --> 00:46:07,295
I should be done.

830
00:46:07,956 --> 00:46:08,655
That was the other step.

831
00:46:08,735 --> 00:46:10,215
So in a couple of the cases, Dan,

832
00:46:10,315 --> 00:46:10,595
I had to-

833
00:46:10,595 --> 00:46:11,755
They already boarded the plane

834
00:46:11,755 --> 00:46:13,215
and they're off to Tahiti.

835
00:46:13,416 --> 00:46:13,995
Yeah, exactly.

836
00:46:14,995 --> 00:46:15,956
Yeah, yeah.

837
00:46:19,396 --> 00:46:21,095
It's great you mentioned that, Avi,

838
00:46:21,095 --> 00:46:21,715
by the way

839
00:46:21,715 --> 00:46:24,715
and I think QW

840
00:46:24,715 --> 00:46:26,956
sort of made a very good comment

841
00:46:26,956 --> 00:46:27,595
that's related

842
00:46:27,595 --> 00:46:30,615
to that clunky

843
00:46:30,615 --> 00:46:32,735
user experience

844
00:46:32,735 --> 00:46:34,255
so

845
00:46:34,255 --> 00:46:36,515
first of all I will answer it in two ways

846
00:46:36,515 --> 00:46:37,575
one is

847
00:46:37,575 --> 00:46:40,615
I believe Angular Protocol

848
00:46:40,615 --> 00:46:42,815
will be eventually used

849
00:46:42,815 --> 00:46:43,535
for big money

850
00:46:43,535 --> 00:46:46,595
so where you invest 10, 50,000 dollars

851
00:46:46,595 --> 00:46:47,115
worth of Bitcoin

852
00:46:47,115 --> 00:46:49,275
even 100,000 dollars worth of Bitcoin

853
00:46:49,275 --> 00:46:52,416
and if you enjoy

854
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:57,387
invest that much money, you don't mind the extra steps for the security that you get.

855
00:47:00,027 --> 00:47:04,987
For the security benefits that you get, you wouldn't mind doing such extra steps.

856
00:47:06,227 --> 00:47:08,927
In fact, it's even welcomed.

857
00:47:10,747 --> 00:47:13,847
But also it allows the founder to approve investors.

858
00:47:15,047 --> 00:47:21,087
So quite often with big money and big projects, not everyone is allowed to invest.

859
00:47:21,087 --> 00:47:32,547
So founders, I mean, there may be some KYC requirements or people could use Ango in a KYC trusted way as well.

860
00:47:32,627 --> 00:47:33,827
It doesn't have to be fully decentralized.

861
00:47:34,267 --> 00:47:36,407
And they may want to approve investors.

862
00:47:37,067 --> 00:47:38,147
So that option exists.

863
00:47:39,527 --> 00:47:40,427
It does exist.

864
00:47:41,867 --> 00:47:44,127
But we can fix that.

865
00:47:44,207 --> 00:47:44,907
We can do better.

866
00:47:46,927 --> 00:47:48,487
Avi, did you hear that?

867
00:47:48,487 --> 00:47:59,387
You don't have to let Jeffrey Epstein be the co-producer on your – the executive producer on your project.

868
00:48:01,267 --> 00:48:04,367
I mean, really, though, that's kind of – there is power in that, right?

869
00:48:04,587 --> 00:48:08,467
I mean, I kid, but it's a strong point.

870
00:48:11,287 --> 00:48:11,927
Okay, yeah.

871
00:48:12,447 --> 00:48:13,787
Carry on, Dan. Carry on.

872
00:48:13,787 --> 00:48:18,767
But we are, so as you mentioned earlier also, that's a web wallet.

873
00:48:18,987 --> 00:48:20,947
So the trust here is not really bad.

874
00:48:21,327 --> 00:48:24,987
And in hindsight, thinking back, maybe building a web wallet,

875
00:48:25,187 --> 00:48:28,507
starting with a web wallet wasn't the best approach.

876
00:48:28,927 --> 00:48:35,527
But we are building a desktop wallet that will replace the web one

877
00:48:35,527 --> 00:48:39,527
that will hopefully be released in the next couple of months.

878
00:48:39,527 --> 00:48:41,467
and it's built on Avalunia

879
00:48:41,467 --> 00:48:45,147
which then means we can compile it into mobile as well.

880
00:48:46,407 --> 00:48:48,027
So eventually the web will go away

881
00:48:48,027 --> 00:48:50,847
and we'll only have desktop and mobile apps.

882
00:48:52,147 --> 00:48:54,687
And then obviously the security is way better

883
00:48:54,687 --> 00:48:56,747
once you run it on your own desktop,

884
00:48:58,927 --> 00:49:00,067
on your own PC.

885
00:49:01,127 --> 00:49:03,307
We have also somewhere in the roadmap

886
00:49:03,307 --> 00:49:07,547
to do cold wallets, hardware wallets,

887
00:49:07,547 --> 00:49:10,247
which will also be cool I think

888
00:49:10,247 --> 00:49:14,827
I mean realistically if we want big money to come into Angor

889
00:49:14,827 --> 00:49:18,427
we need to have cold wallet support

890
00:49:18,427 --> 00:49:19,327
hardware wallet support

891
00:49:19,327 --> 00:49:22,927
but when we will have a desktop or mobile app

892
00:49:22,927 --> 00:49:24,767
then we could streamline it, it could be easier

893
00:49:24,767 --> 00:49:26,227
you could just get a QR code

894
00:49:26,227 --> 00:49:28,947
and then you just send money to this QR code

895
00:49:28,947 --> 00:49:31,687
and in the background it will create the wallet

896
00:49:31,687 --> 00:49:34,127
and it will build the Angor transaction for you

897
00:49:34,127 --> 00:49:36,667
and it could go and wait for the approval

898
00:49:36,667 --> 00:49:42,307
and then we could automate all that user experience

899
00:49:42,307 --> 00:49:44,507
once we have a desktop app.

900
00:49:46,087 --> 00:49:48,087
That would actually make a lot of sense, Dan.

901
00:49:48,287 --> 00:49:51,287
If you don't need to create a separate one,

902
00:49:51,487 --> 00:49:54,867
you just send it to the QR code on the desktop app,

903
00:49:54,967 --> 00:49:56,507
it creates the wallet, it funds it,

904
00:49:56,667 --> 00:49:58,947
it waits for the response, it accepts it.

905
00:49:58,947 --> 00:50:00,267
If you automate a lot of that,

906
00:50:00,667 --> 00:50:03,107
then it starts resembling a geyser

907
00:50:03,107 --> 00:50:06,767
or gets closer to the user experience of a geyser at that point.

908
00:50:07,327 --> 00:50:08,967
Yeah, I mean, the problem is always the keys.

909
00:50:09,067 --> 00:50:09,727
Where will they live?

910
00:50:09,847 --> 00:50:11,687
So having the keys unlocked on the browser,

911
00:50:11,807 --> 00:50:14,687
that's even worse in terms of security.

912
00:50:14,827 --> 00:50:16,647
But on a desktop or on a mobile app,

913
00:50:16,867 --> 00:50:19,107
perhaps it's not as bad.

914
00:50:19,107 --> 00:50:20,647
So exactly, yeah.

915
00:50:21,167 --> 00:50:24,267
And some guys in the team are really looking forward for that feature

916
00:50:24,267 --> 00:50:28,947
because you could also use Angular with smaller projects

917
00:50:28,947 --> 00:50:31,467
that are raising 10,000 or 5,000.

918
00:50:31,467 --> 00:50:36,667
And then every Bitcoin eric would just send 100 or 200 or 300

919
00:50:36,667 --> 00:50:39,607
and they wouldn't want all this hassle.

920
00:50:41,127 --> 00:50:45,527
So definitely that would maybe open smaller investors

921
00:50:45,527 --> 00:50:49,667
being willing to use the platform.

922
00:50:51,647 --> 00:50:54,187
And surely there's got to be a way down.

923
00:50:54,267 --> 00:50:56,687
Oh, not surely, but maybe there's a way here, Dan.

924
00:50:57,187 --> 00:50:59,967
Given the fact that these two of two multisigs

925
00:50:59,967 --> 00:51:02,287
are functionally lightning channels

926
00:51:02,287 --> 00:51:05,287
of somehow getting lightning into the mix

927
00:51:05,287 --> 00:51:07,487
just to make the funding easier

928
00:51:07,487 --> 00:51:09,587
to unlock these smaller projects.

929
00:51:09,747 --> 00:51:11,047
For example, finding home,

930
00:51:11,367 --> 00:51:14,927
at least as it stands today in its low budget form,

931
00:51:15,027 --> 00:51:16,207
is not $100,000.

932
00:51:16,587 --> 00:51:18,587
I'd love it to be, but today it's not, right?

933
00:51:19,107 --> 00:51:20,327
It's, I mean, what is it?

934
00:51:20,387 --> 00:51:21,667
My fundraiser was $6 million,

935
00:51:21,667 --> 00:51:25,587
so that's like $6,000 or $7,000 at today's price.

936
00:51:26,747 --> 00:51:29,787
I think projects of that size, maybe even smaller,

937
00:51:29,967 --> 00:51:33,187
would benefit from just an easy lightning thing.

938
00:51:36,487 --> 00:51:39,687
Yeah, but we could also use swappers for that.

939
00:51:39,847 --> 00:51:40,787
So you would open the app,

940
00:51:41,087 --> 00:51:42,827
you would get a Lightning QR code

941
00:51:42,827 --> 00:51:49,087
and that would go and swap with one of the existing...

942
00:51:49,087 --> 00:51:51,447
I mean, just like you do with Aqua Wallet

943
00:51:51,447 --> 00:51:52,367
where you can send lightning

944
00:51:52,367 --> 00:51:54,887
and it goes directly into liquid Bitcoin.

945
00:51:55,907 --> 00:51:58,187
Right, you could use a submarine swap of something.

946
00:51:58,187 --> 00:51:59,087
Yeah, exactly.

947
00:51:59,967 --> 00:52:02,287
But then you'll get killed if the fees are high.

948
00:52:02,447 --> 00:52:04,507
That's game over at that point.

949
00:52:07,407 --> 00:52:08,907
So what kind of projects then?

950
00:52:09,027 --> 00:52:09,487
Go ahead.

951
00:52:09,867 --> 00:52:10,847
Speaking of which,

952
00:52:12,507 --> 00:52:17,167
a very nice easy pick would be also the Liquid Network.

953
00:52:17,647 --> 00:52:18,547
And we're working on that.

954
00:52:18,787 --> 00:52:20,067
So Ango could work on Liquid.

955
00:52:20,787 --> 00:52:22,767
And then it will maybe be also

956
00:52:22,767 --> 00:52:26,007
much more sense for smaller projects.

957
00:52:26,007 --> 00:52:31,347
the reason is that

958
00:52:31,347 --> 00:52:33,267
Liquid has the same execution engine as

959
00:52:33,267 --> 00:52:34,087
Bitcoin so

960
00:52:34,087 --> 00:52:37,227
to deploy Ango on Liquid wouldn't be

961
00:52:37,227 --> 00:52:37,987
that much work

962
00:52:37,987 --> 00:52:41,407
hopefully we are working on that

963
00:52:41,407 --> 00:52:41,747
we'll see

964
00:52:41,747 --> 00:52:45,107
you might at that point be the only

965
00:52:45,107 --> 00:52:47,447
project in the world Dan that uses

966
00:52:47,447 --> 00:52:48,767
Bitcoin, Nostra

967
00:52:48,767 --> 00:52:50,687
Liquid and potentially Lightning

968
00:52:50,687 --> 00:52:53,387
I can't think

969
00:52:53,387 --> 00:52:55,387
of another one that uses all of them

970
00:52:55,387 --> 00:53:05,467
great so what kind of projects uh are the best fit for anger i mean i personally enjoyed the

971
00:53:05,467 --> 00:53:10,807
experience uh of fundraising for finding home episode three but i recognize that

972
00:53:10,807 --> 00:53:16,207
you know there are opportunities for bigger projects as you said right to to thrive on anger

973
00:53:17,087 --> 00:53:17,307
Yeah.

974
00:53:18,667 --> 00:53:21,667
So let me touch on Angor Hub

975
00:53:21,667 --> 00:53:26,727
before we talk about what are the best projects.

976
00:53:27,807 --> 00:53:31,367
So Angor Hub, basically hub.angor.io.

977
00:53:31,367 --> 00:53:34,367
It's a Noster client dedicated specifically

978
00:53:35,047 --> 00:53:38,487
to scanning the network and showing Angor projects.

979
00:53:40,227 --> 00:53:43,327
So when you create a project on the Angor wallet,

980
00:53:43,527 --> 00:53:45,247
then it will normally appear on a hub.

981
00:53:46,207 --> 00:53:51,707
However, our hub, AngularHub specifically,

982
00:53:51,947 --> 00:53:54,767
we are filtering the projects that will appear there.

983
00:53:55,807 --> 00:53:57,727
But I'm hoping that in the future,

984
00:53:58,027 --> 00:54:01,647
there will be many hubs run by different people

985
00:54:01,647 --> 00:54:05,187
and they decide what projects will appear on their hub.

986
00:54:06,007 --> 00:54:08,607
And maybe perhaps if there is some person

987
00:54:08,607 --> 00:54:12,607
who is doing lots of due diligence on projects that are interesting,

988
00:54:12,607 --> 00:54:14,587
then they could publish on their hub

989
00:54:14,587 --> 00:54:17,727
the projects they think are worth investing in.

990
00:54:18,007 --> 00:54:20,947
There might be also some affiliate mechanism there.

991
00:54:22,427 --> 00:54:27,907
So yeah, just trying to mention Angle Hub as well.

992
00:54:28,907 --> 00:54:31,847
So speaking of what is the best project,

993
00:54:33,347 --> 00:54:34,867
or at least my vision,

994
00:54:35,007 --> 00:54:37,327
because people could use Angle in ways

995
00:54:37,327 --> 00:54:40,107
that I didn't even envision, I guess.

996
00:54:40,107 --> 00:54:42,627
I would like to see

997
00:54:42,627 --> 00:54:44,827
all the big Nostra clients

998
00:54:44,827 --> 00:54:46,767
on Angor being funded

999
00:54:46,767 --> 00:54:49,067
by the people

1000
00:54:49,067 --> 00:54:49,827
who are using Nostra

1001
00:54:49,827 --> 00:54:52,907
this could be a cool example

1002
00:54:52,907 --> 00:54:54,967
we have Nostria

1003
00:54:54,967 --> 00:54:57,087
it's a Nostra client

1004
00:54:57,087 --> 00:54:58,327
I like that idea

1005
00:54:58,327 --> 00:55:01,247
they got some funding from Angor

1006
00:55:01,247 --> 00:55:01,707
as well

1007
00:55:01,707 --> 00:55:04,867
but I would like to see the other projects

1008
00:55:04,867 --> 00:55:06,287
as well

1009
00:55:06,287 --> 00:55:08,407
ideal project

1010
00:55:08,407 --> 00:55:10,807
So, okay, if we talk about projects,

1011
00:55:10,887 --> 00:55:13,507
then we have to make a distinction here

1012
00:55:13,507 --> 00:55:18,127
between projects that are equity-bearing

1013
00:55:18,127 --> 00:55:22,007
and that don't promise anything in return.

1014
00:55:23,827 --> 00:55:25,987
So if it's equity-bearing, then it's an investment.

1015
00:55:26,527 --> 00:55:29,087
But if it's just a project, let's say Amethyst,

1016
00:55:29,387 --> 00:55:32,047
they register a project on Angor

1017
00:55:32,047 --> 00:55:34,287
and the plebs, they fund them

1018
00:55:34,287 --> 00:55:37,287
and they don't promise anything back,

1019
00:55:37,287 --> 00:55:40,247
the thing they promise back is a feature

1020
00:55:40,247 --> 00:55:43,207
or to make Amethyst itself better, for example.

1021
00:55:45,707 --> 00:55:47,547
I think this would be really cool

1022
00:55:47,547 --> 00:55:49,107
to build the ecosystem.

1023
00:55:51,287 --> 00:55:54,267
And hopefully we could use Angor to do that.

1024
00:55:55,487 --> 00:55:57,047
Does Angor create,

1025
00:55:57,047 --> 00:56:01,287
does it create its own nip for a project?

1026
00:56:01,567 --> 00:56:02,687
When you build a project,

1027
00:56:02,767 --> 00:56:04,727
because you mentioned that the hub,

1028
00:56:04,947 --> 00:56:06,667
and if I click on explore the hub,

1029
00:56:06,667 --> 00:56:08,427
it would populate there

1030
00:56:08,427 --> 00:56:09,907
those projects that are

1031
00:56:09,907 --> 00:56:11,967
broadcasted in Nostra, right?

1032
00:56:12,947 --> 00:56:13,347
Yeah.

1033
00:56:13,827 --> 00:56:15,647
Am I understanding that correctly?

1034
00:56:15,827 --> 00:56:18,047
Yeah, but we do create our NIP

1035
00:56:18,047 --> 00:56:20,187
NIP 3030

1036
00:56:20,187 --> 00:56:21,127
for the metadata

1037
00:56:21,127 --> 00:56:23,567
but the projects that you see on the hub

1038
00:56:23,567 --> 00:56:24,227
they are filtered

1039
00:56:24,227 --> 00:56:25,607
we go to the blockchain

1040
00:56:25,607 --> 00:56:28,747
and we see the latest projects

1041
00:56:28,747 --> 00:56:31,647
that have been deployed for Angular

1042
00:56:31,647 --> 00:56:32,887
so we forked Mempool

1043
00:56:32,887 --> 00:56:34,307
and we adapted it a bit

1044
00:56:34,307 --> 00:56:38,927
to also capture the data of any transaction on the blockchain

1045
00:56:38,927 --> 00:56:40,287
that looks like an Angular transaction.

1046
00:56:41,647 --> 00:56:42,087
Got it.

1047
00:56:42,187 --> 00:56:47,987
So that explore page is basically capturing all the confirmations

1048
00:56:47,987 --> 00:56:50,487
on the blockchain that are Angular project specific.

1049
00:56:50,587 --> 00:56:50,767
Yeah.

1050
00:56:51,367 --> 00:56:53,187
It's not the most efficient.

1051
00:56:53,187 --> 00:56:57,987
It would be better if we would adapt the hub to look at NIP 3030

1052
00:56:57,987 --> 00:57:01,127
and based on that display projects.

1053
00:57:01,387 --> 00:57:03,147
I tend to agree on that comment.

1054
00:57:03,147 --> 00:57:08,087
And I think there are some active discussions within the team about that.

1055
00:57:09,387 --> 00:57:11,287
Just got to figure out how to mitigate spam.

1056
00:57:11,407 --> 00:57:23,876
But I guess once it produced it can only be produced through that wallet initiation right Yeah then you would have to go to the blockchain and make sure that this project has a transaction

1057
00:57:25,136 --> 00:57:26,896
Only then you would display it on the hub.

1058
00:57:28,376 --> 00:57:30,976
So instead of going and getting all the transactions,

1059
00:57:31,816 --> 00:57:34,476
all the projects from the indexer, from the blockchain,

1060
00:57:34,696 --> 00:57:37,836
and then filtering them out, you would do the reverse.

1061
00:57:37,976 --> 00:57:39,756
You would get everything from Nostra and filter out.

1062
00:57:39,756 --> 00:57:46,576
yeah and there's op return bot as well on nostr dan you can just pull use that one there's an

1063
00:57:46,576 --> 00:57:55,456
yeah it's interesting because it's a big idea but i'm loving that i i find that the the website's

1064
00:57:55,456 --> 00:58:00,276
really well done so it's very informative uh and it's it's just kind of neat to click along and

1065
00:58:00,276 --> 00:58:07,456
it's kind of like an introduction um like i'm sitting in class right now cool yeah ask the

1066
00:58:07,456 --> 00:58:13,076
teach your questions. And Dan, it's worth again clarifying, I think you mentioned this earlier,

1067
00:58:13,076 --> 00:58:19,276
but Angor itself is a protocol, right? And it's a protocol that combines these different elements,

1068
00:58:19,396 --> 00:58:24,876
these two of two multi-sigs with the NOSTA part. Anyone can take that and build their own hub.

1069
00:58:25,096 --> 00:58:29,656
It so happens that you made the first initiation, the first instantiation, I should say,

1070
00:58:30,256 --> 00:58:35,216
of the Angor protocol in Angor hub, right? Which is the one QW is talking about.

1071
00:58:35,216 --> 00:58:37,896
yeah exactly

1072
00:58:37,896 --> 00:58:39,756
imagine this scenario

1073
00:58:39,756 --> 00:58:41,056
so we are running a hub

1074
00:58:41,056 --> 00:58:44,136
imagine HRA for OpenSats

1075
00:58:44,136 --> 00:58:45,576
run their own hub

1076
00:58:45,576 --> 00:58:46,936
and they are giving grants

1077
00:58:46,936 --> 00:58:49,556
so they could

1078
00:58:49,556 --> 00:58:51,956
OpenSats could

1079
00:58:51,956 --> 00:58:53,016
run their own hub

1080
00:58:53,016 --> 00:58:55,796
list projects that they are going to give grants to

1081
00:58:55,796 --> 00:58:57,376
and not

1082
00:58:57,376 --> 00:58:59,956
then the plebs could also come and help

1083
00:58:59,956 --> 00:59:00,836
chip in

1084
00:59:00,836 --> 00:59:03,456
so it could be that

1085
00:59:03,456 --> 00:59:06,856
OpenStats don't give the entire grant

1086
00:59:06,856 --> 00:59:08,916
they give 50% and the rest is given

1087
00:59:08,916 --> 00:59:09,296
by

1088
00:59:09,296 --> 00:59:12,776
the community or the people who like

1089
00:59:12,776 --> 00:59:13,576
the grant idea

1090
00:59:13,576 --> 00:59:15,796
they want it to happen

1091
00:59:15,796 --> 00:59:18,876
just throwing out one option

1092
00:59:18,876 --> 00:59:20,076
for how hub could be used

1093
00:59:20,076 --> 00:59:22,956
Dan let's go

1094
00:59:22,956 --> 00:59:24,876
back to the equity bearing versus

1095
00:59:24,876 --> 00:59:26,776
non-equity bearing because that's

1096
00:59:26,776 --> 00:59:28,836
non-equity bearing is the easiest one

1097
00:59:28,836 --> 00:59:29,736
that's what I did

1098
00:59:29,736 --> 00:59:32,156
when I was setting it up we were talking about

1099
00:59:32,156 --> 00:59:37,276
what can can i promise something and i landed on the very safe thing of saying i will give you a

1100
00:59:37,276 --> 00:59:43,176
credit in my call you an executive producer or an associate or a special thanks because

1101
00:59:43,176 --> 00:59:49,616
anything else saying you get a share of the profits and all of that stuff it suddenly starts

1102
00:59:49,616 --> 00:59:57,376
getting a little hairy in my mind right so i i for a for a short film about this i i just did not

1103
00:59:57,376 --> 01:00:01,956
want to go down that road now let's talk about a client and you said amethyst so let's take

1104
01:00:01,956 --> 01:00:07,396
another example, someone's creating a new NOSTA client and they want to do a proper fundraise,

1105
01:00:07,476 --> 01:00:15,116
right? Not donations or whatever, but an actual fundraise. In theory, in that text box where I put

1106
01:00:15,116 --> 01:00:20,936
in executive produce and so on, when they create those, they can actually embed a safe, you know,

1107
01:00:21,016 --> 01:00:27,456
simple agreement for future equity agreement, right? Those things that are used in VC or

1108
01:00:27,456 --> 01:00:35,816
seed round fundraising is that so question two questions right can they do that and if they can

1109
01:00:35,816 --> 01:00:44,176
is that enforceable off-chain because ultimately a safe is an off-chain document right adjudicated

1110
01:00:44,176 --> 01:00:53,796
by a court of law yeah exactly uh so uh nostria the project that raised one of the first projects

1111
01:00:53,796 --> 01:00:55,596
that raised on anger, he issued safes.

1112
01:00:57,276 --> 01:01:01,556
So if in the future he succeeds and he has some revenue,

1113
01:01:01,756 --> 01:01:03,936
then he would give some of that to those who invested,

1114
01:01:05,136 --> 01:01:05,996
which is one way.

1115
01:01:07,876 --> 01:01:11,456
So I always try to look at the extreme cases.

1116
01:01:11,596 --> 01:01:15,156
There is no way to make sure that a founder is honest

1117
01:01:15,156 --> 01:01:17,936
in an environment which is completely anonymous

1118
01:01:17,936 --> 01:01:19,556
once they have a successful project.

1119
01:01:19,996 --> 01:01:22,336
We can't bring events from outside of the blockchain

1120
01:01:22,336 --> 01:01:24,896
into the blockchain.

1121
01:01:25,156 --> 01:01:27,616
I mean, at least I can't think of a way to do that.

1122
01:01:27,616 --> 01:01:30,356
So it can't go fully centralized.

1123
01:01:31,736 --> 01:01:33,956
So that means that maybe the delivery mechanism

1124
01:01:33,956 --> 01:01:36,616
of the Bitcoin into the project when they build it,

1125
01:01:37,016 --> 01:01:39,636
that is, you're more protected there

1126
01:01:39,636 --> 01:01:42,096
because it's delivered over stages

1127
01:01:42,096 --> 01:01:44,636
and you can see the progress and so on.

1128
01:01:44,716 --> 01:01:46,856
But let's assume a project's raised successfully

1129
01:01:46,856 --> 01:01:47,876
and delivered successfully

1130
01:01:47,876 --> 01:01:52,216
and they make revenue, they have profit,

1131
01:01:52,336 --> 01:01:58,676
but they decide not to share those profits with the investors then then what then how can we

1132
01:01:58,676 --> 01:02:07,616
recover from that so yeah that's a ongoing question and right and that would be subject to

1133
01:02:07,616 --> 01:02:15,216
the like whatever the law of the land is and then in i presumably international law right dan because

1134
01:02:15,216 --> 01:02:21,036
how do you know where these people are where the investors are where the client's headquarters is

1135
01:02:21,036 --> 01:02:31,696
yeah that's a good question i i guess i i think it's less of an issue in comparison to the to the

1136
01:02:31,696 --> 01:02:36,396
other problem of giving you know either going centralized and then risking because if you go

1137
01:02:36,396 --> 01:02:40,636
centralized you risk your bitcoin in some ways right you have to either give the bitcoin to the

1138
01:02:40,636 --> 01:02:46,516
founder or to a third party that will will give the bitcoin to the founder over time or or you

1139
01:02:46,516 --> 01:02:50,316
or you actually don't you're not anonymous you know who the founder is and you still use

1140
01:02:50,316 --> 01:02:53,036
to give the Bitcoin in stages.

1141
01:02:54,436 --> 01:02:56,636
Yeah, that option also works.

1142
01:02:56,836 --> 01:02:58,096
But yeah, you will have to go

1143
01:02:58,096 --> 01:03:00,056
and probably sue the founder.

1144
01:03:00,996 --> 01:03:01,736
And then you will have to go

1145
01:03:01,736 --> 01:03:05,036
to the state court system

1146
01:03:05,036 --> 01:03:06,616
and bring this.

1147
01:03:06,716 --> 01:03:07,636
Here's the safe agreement.

1148
01:03:07,956 --> 01:03:09,416
Here is my investment.

1149
01:03:09,496 --> 01:03:10,416
You can prove you invested.

1150
01:03:10,796 --> 01:03:11,956
Obviously, everything is on chain.

1151
01:03:12,636 --> 01:03:14,696
So you have the ability to prove that

1152
01:03:14,696 --> 01:03:15,876
and you have your end pub.

1153
01:03:16,256 --> 01:03:17,496
So you can prove that you are

1154
01:03:17,496 --> 01:03:18,556
the owner of the wallet.

1155
01:03:20,316 --> 01:03:26,676
but this is a problem, a hard-to-crack problem.

1156
01:03:27,196 --> 01:03:29,416
How do we do equity in a decentralized way?

1157
01:03:30,516 --> 01:03:34,856
Yes, and to be clear, Dan, as far as I understand this,

1158
01:03:34,896 --> 01:03:40,356
this is not a problem that you or the Angor team need to solve.

1159
01:03:40,356 --> 01:03:41,876
You are just providing a protocol.

1160
01:03:42,456 --> 01:03:44,856
And yes, a platform in the form of Angor Hub,

1161
01:03:44,936 --> 01:03:47,896
but if someone else can build their own hub using the Angor protocol.

1162
01:03:47,896 --> 01:03:54,956
right it really is an issue between the founder and the and the investors themselves you know

1163
01:03:54,956 --> 01:04:02,376
the investors choosing to trust a safe agreement that was pasted into a markdown document and then

1164
01:04:02,376 --> 01:04:07,356
trusting the enforceability of a safe along those lines but it's just an interesting academic

1165
01:04:07,356 --> 01:04:11,976
problem to contemplate because it is a i mean we're in a strange new world right if you're

1166
01:04:11,976 --> 01:04:17,056
talking about safe agreements being embedded on NOSTA

1167
01:04:17,056 --> 01:04:18,396
and within op returns.

1168
01:04:18,676 --> 01:04:21,096
It makes things interesting.

1169
01:04:21,776 --> 01:04:22,796
It is interesting indeed.

1170
01:04:23,896 --> 01:04:26,476
I mean, you can look at the libertarian society

1171
01:04:26,476 --> 01:04:32,096
and how they solve disputes outside of the enforcement of the state.

1172
01:04:32,836 --> 01:04:34,336
And there are all kinds of options there.

1173
01:04:34,336 --> 01:04:38,056
If it's private courts, insurance bonds, reputation.

1174
01:04:38,056 --> 01:04:41,016
but you're right that this is

1175
01:04:41,016 --> 01:04:42,856
outside of the scope of Angor

1176
01:04:42,856 --> 01:04:44,236
because we just focus on the protocol

1177
01:04:44,236 --> 01:04:46,836
and the less ability to

1178
01:04:46,836 --> 01:04:48,956
influence

1179
01:04:48,956 --> 01:04:51,276
by the devs

1180
01:04:51,276 --> 01:04:51,636
the better

1181
01:04:51,636 --> 01:04:54,616
so even if we disappear and we are not

1182
01:04:54,616 --> 01:04:56,996
involved in any way, Angor will just continue

1183
01:04:56,996 --> 01:04:58,216
the protocol itself

1184
01:04:58,216 --> 01:05:01,216
What will happen to the hub?

1185
01:05:01,216 --> 01:05:03,196
Just playing

1186
01:05:03,196 --> 01:05:04,536
that out for a second Dan

1187
01:05:04,536 --> 01:05:07,396
the hub disappears though, not the protocol

1188
01:05:07,396 --> 01:05:11,696
The hub might still go on, but then it won't filter bad projects.

1189
01:05:12,616 --> 01:05:14,716
Or, I mean, if we take it offline, then it disappears.

1190
01:05:14,856 --> 01:05:15,316
Yeah, of course.

1191
01:05:17,236 --> 01:05:22,596
Also, if we take Angor offline, then Angor.io and all the web wallet disappears.

1192
01:05:22,716 --> 01:05:27,396
But you can always just go to GitHub, download it and compile it yourself and run it yourself.

1193
01:05:28,236 --> 01:05:29,016
And then you don't need...

1194
01:05:29,016 --> 01:05:30,056
Even now you can do that.

1195
01:05:30,056 --> 01:05:33,196
You can run Angor in a local host setup

1196
01:05:33,196 --> 01:05:37,856
and then you can use it without needing to fetch

1197
01:05:37,856 --> 01:05:41,556
the software from our domain.

1198
01:05:44,156 --> 01:05:48,216
So Dan, you launched this version of Angor,

1199
01:05:48,356 --> 01:05:50,476
what was it, five or six months ago,

1200
01:05:50,536 --> 01:05:52,136
before the Warsaw Film Fest, correct?

1201
01:05:53,436 --> 01:05:53,956
Yeah.

1202
01:05:55,436 --> 01:05:55,736
Okay.

1203
01:05:55,736 --> 01:05:58,216
and how many projects

1204
01:05:58,216 --> 01:06:00,336
how many projects do you have

1205
01:06:00,336 --> 01:06:02,656
listed on active projects do you have on the hub

1206
01:06:02,656 --> 01:06:03,656
right now

1207
01:06:03,656 --> 01:06:06,396
yeah if you go on the first project was

1208
01:06:06,396 --> 01:06:07,156
Bloomfest

1209
01:06:07,156 --> 01:06:10,776
and that was

1210
01:06:10,776 --> 01:06:11,316
May

1211
01:06:11,316 --> 01:06:13,156
yeah so

1212
01:06:13,156 --> 01:06:16,656
yeah Bloomfest was a cool project that was

1213
01:06:16,656 --> 01:06:18,616
launched for a festival

1214
01:06:18,616 --> 01:06:19,196
here in London

1215
01:06:19,196 --> 01:06:22,616
so right now we have what is it

1216
01:06:22,616 --> 01:06:25,596
12 projects

1217
01:06:25,596 --> 01:06:30,276
that have been listed on Angor.

1218
01:06:31,216 --> 01:06:36,836
But disclaimer, those projects are hackathon winners.

1219
01:06:38,356 --> 01:06:42,056
So I figured out the best way to market Angor

1220
01:06:42,056 --> 01:06:43,756
will actually be to take the marketing budget

1221
01:06:43,756 --> 01:06:46,796
and invest it in projects who are using Angor.

1222
01:06:47,696 --> 01:06:50,196
So when we're starting to do hackathons

1223
01:06:50,196 --> 01:06:52,376
in all kinds of events in the Bitcoin space

1224
01:06:52,376 --> 01:06:55,176
and giving a prize and the winner or the two winners

1225
01:06:55,176 --> 01:06:58,276
or as many as they are

1226
01:06:58,276 --> 01:06:59,756
will get funded on Angor.

1227
01:07:02,456 --> 01:07:05,396
So this brings projects in.

1228
01:07:06,516 --> 01:07:07,816
But it's a win-win

1229
01:07:07,816 --> 01:07:08,936
because we get feedback,

1230
01:07:09,436 --> 01:07:10,876
we improve the software,

1231
01:07:11,396 --> 01:07:12,356
people get some funding

1232
01:07:12,356 --> 01:07:15,136
and hopefully, yeah,

1233
01:07:15,316 --> 01:07:18,256
I will continue with that model for now.

1234
01:07:20,596 --> 01:07:23,396
And when the software is more stable,

1235
01:07:23,396 --> 01:07:26,796
maybe I will be able to increase the amounts

1236
01:07:26,796 --> 01:07:30,976
and maybe we can get other people to also chip in.

1237
01:07:33,456 --> 01:07:33,696
Yeah.

1238
01:07:34,916 --> 01:07:39,076
By the way, Dan, I realized I'd be remiss if I didn't say this.

1239
01:07:39,496 --> 01:07:50,304
Big shout out to Roger 9000 who in Prague happened to be in a randomly right happened to be in a taxi with you back from the airport to the hotel

1240
01:07:50,524 --> 01:07:55,504
And you guys got talking and then he gets out of the taxi, he sees me and he starts telling me all about Angor.

1241
01:07:55,564 --> 01:07:56,844
That's how I found out about it.

1242
01:07:57,184 --> 01:07:59,864
And now I'm making a Paraguay episode.

1243
01:08:00,084 --> 01:08:01,084
So there you go.

1244
01:08:01,184 --> 01:08:04,184
Avi, is he the highest sober guy you've ever met?

1245
01:08:05,504 --> 01:08:05,944
100%.

1246
01:08:05,944 --> 01:08:08,644
He's high on Bitcoin.

1247
01:08:09,104 --> 01:08:11,204
thank you roger

1248
01:08:11,204 --> 01:08:15,864
that was a fun show we did with him

1249
01:08:15,864 --> 01:08:17,524
yeah for sure

1250
01:08:17,524 --> 01:08:19,984
remarkable and very memorable

1251
01:08:19,984 --> 01:08:22,884
for sure

1252
01:08:22,884 --> 01:08:24,744
so I guess Dan

1253
01:08:24,744 --> 01:08:27,504
you know there's geyser already

1254
01:08:27,504 --> 01:08:29,764
for the bitcoin community

1255
01:08:29,764 --> 01:08:30,364
right and

1256
01:08:30,364 --> 01:08:33,064
and you know

1257
01:08:33,064 --> 01:08:34,844
there are a lot of projects on geyser

1258
01:08:34,844 --> 01:08:36,504
why would someone choose

1259
01:08:36,504 --> 01:08:38,344
Angor versus geyser

1260
01:08:38,344 --> 01:08:41,884
I think it's different models

1261
01:08:41,884 --> 01:08:43,824
Geyser is slightly more donations

1262
01:08:43,824 --> 01:08:45,424
and for smaller amounts

1263
01:08:45,424 --> 01:08:48,905
and I love Geyser

1264
01:08:48,905 --> 01:08:50,644
don't get me wrong

1265
01:08:50,644 --> 01:08:53,124
but we're sort of

1266
01:08:53,124 --> 01:08:54,104
complementary techs

1267
01:08:54,104 --> 01:08:55,684
one is more smaller amounts

1268
01:08:55,684 --> 01:08:57,724
the other one is more accountability

1269
01:08:57,724 --> 01:08:59,164
and bigger amounts

1270
01:08:59,164 --> 01:09:01,364
like Ango is for

1271
01:09:01,364 --> 01:09:03,484
I guess if you put anything

1272
01:09:03,484 --> 01:09:05,624
between $500 to $1,000

1273
01:09:05,624 --> 01:09:07,884
and above that

1274
01:09:07,884 --> 01:09:12,124
and you need accountability, you would rather use Angor.

1275
01:09:12,624 --> 01:09:16,464
And in the other case, you would go to use Geyser.

1276
01:09:16,824 --> 01:09:19,704
But there is another distinction also that Geyser is run,

1277
01:09:19,824 --> 01:09:22,124
is sort of centralized, is run by a team.

1278
01:09:23,164 --> 01:09:27,824
And they have to filter projects, unfortunately,

1279
01:09:27,824 --> 01:09:32,204
because they have to follow the regulation of where,

1280
01:09:32,484 --> 01:09:34,424
the local jurisdiction regulation.

1281
01:09:34,424 --> 01:09:36,405
with Angor

1282
01:09:36,405 --> 01:09:38,824
that's not the case because anyone can just

1283
01:09:38,824 --> 01:09:40,704
download Angor and use it

1284
01:09:40,704 --> 01:09:42,764
the only distinction

1285
01:09:42,764 --> 01:09:44,844
is that Angor Hub is something we are running

1286
01:09:44,844 --> 01:09:46,804
and we have to also make sure that nothing illegal

1287
01:09:46,804 --> 01:09:48,664
is being published

1288
01:09:48,664 --> 01:09:49,484
to the hub

1289
01:09:49,484 --> 01:09:54,864
That raises an

1290
01:09:54,864 --> 01:09:56,924
interesting point Dan

1291
01:09:56,924 --> 01:09:58,564
which is obviously you will take

1292
01:09:58,564 --> 01:10:00,785
all necessary precautions

1293
01:10:00,785 --> 01:10:02,984
to ensure there are no illegal projects

1294
01:10:02,984 --> 01:10:04,785
on Angor Hub.

1295
01:10:06,124 --> 01:10:07,724
But what about the Angor Protocol?

1296
01:10:09,124 --> 01:10:12,424
Like, I mean, let's just pick one example

1297
01:10:12,424 --> 01:10:13,424
of a nefarious activity.

1298
01:10:13,664 --> 01:10:16,424
Let's say someone uses the Angor Protocol,

1299
01:10:16,545 --> 01:10:17,464
they create their own hub

1300
01:10:17,464 --> 01:10:25,384
and they create some kind of illegal weapons smuggling ring

1301
01:10:25,384 --> 01:10:26,364
or something like that.

1302
01:10:27,144 --> 01:10:27,884
I don't know.

1303
01:10:27,884 --> 01:10:32,764
It's a growing operation where when the marijuana blooms,

1304
01:10:32,984 --> 01:10:35,324
you know, you get number one

1305
01:10:35,324 --> 01:10:37,244
and then the second payout is, yeah,

1306
01:10:37,424 --> 01:10:38,764
you can play that game.

1307
01:10:39,104 --> 01:10:41,944
Yeah, so that's really, at this point,

1308
01:10:42,164 --> 01:10:44,204
that's, it's completely doable, right,

1309
01:10:44,244 --> 01:10:44,864
with the protocol?

1310
01:10:46,384 --> 01:10:47,545
It's out of my control.

1311
01:10:47,724 --> 01:10:51,064
I can ask them nice not to do it.

1312
01:10:51,144 --> 01:10:53,084
I can tell them you're not allowed to do it.

1313
01:10:53,084 --> 01:10:56,104
But other than that, there's not much I can do.

1314
01:10:56,864 --> 01:10:58,405
Yeah, you know, I think it's, you know,

1315
01:10:58,464 --> 01:11:00,424
the extension is it's like people using Bitcoin

1316
01:11:00,424 --> 01:11:01,644
for things you don't agree with.

1317
01:11:01,644 --> 01:11:03,664
you can ask them nicely not to do it

1318
01:11:03,664 --> 01:11:04,804
but they're going to use Bitcoin

1319
01:11:04,804 --> 01:11:05,964
if they want to

1320
01:11:05,964 --> 01:11:07,344
and they're going to use US dollars

1321
01:11:07,344 --> 01:11:08,204
in fact most of the time

1322
01:11:08,204 --> 01:11:10,204
they use more US dollars for bad stuff

1323
01:11:10,204 --> 01:11:11,405
than they do Bitcoin

1324
01:11:11,405 --> 01:11:12,204
exactly

1325
01:11:12,204 --> 01:11:13,364
yeah exactly

1326
01:11:13,364 --> 01:11:18,545
I mean we had some chat with a lawyer

1327
01:11:18,545 --> 01:11:19,644
to see what

1328
01:11:19,644 --> 01:11:20,804
where are

1329
01:11:20,804 --> 01:11:22,224
is the team accountable

1330
01:11:22,224 --> 01:11:25,204
and the conclusion is

1331
01:11:25,204 --> 01:11:26,524
even though there is a fee

1332
01:11:26,524 --> 01:11:27,785
that is paid on every transaction

1333
01:11:27,785 --> 01:11:28,884
to the Anger team

1334
01:11:28,884 --> 01:11:30,924
and this is our business model

1335
01:11:30,924 --> 01:11:34,804
the conclusion is that if we can't control the money

1336
01:11:34,804 --> 01:11:35,744
and we cannot

1337
01:11:35,744 --> 01:11:38,744
and we don't actively help anyone

1338
01:11:38,744 --> 01:11:40,724
to try to break the law

1339
01:11:40,724 --> 01:11:41,824
then we are

1340
01:11:41,824 --> 01:11:43,224
we are clear

1341
01:11:43,224 --> 01:11:46,924
and it's open source code

1342
01:11:46,924 --> 01:11:47,224
right?

1343
01:11:47,364 --> 01:11:48,884
and it's open source of course

1344
01:11:48,884 --> 01:11:49,424
yeah

1345
01:11:49,424 --> 01:11:53,545
only open source

1346
01:11:53,545 --> 01:11:59,624
speaking about open source

1347
01:11:59,624 --> 01:12:01,764
one of the worries I had in the beginning

1348
01:12:01,764 --> 01:12:02,504
was

1349
01:12:02,504 --> 01:12:05,744
if it's open source, somebody can come

1350
01:12:05,744 --> 01:12:07,764
and fork it and compete

1351
01:12:07,764 --> 01:12:09,305
and

1352
01:12:09,305 --> 01:12:11,204
steal the business model.

1353
01:12:12,164 --> 01:12:13,684
And partly, that's also

1354
01:12:13,684 --> 01:12:14,884
the reason the fee is very low.

1355
01:12:16,104 --> 01:12:16,285
But

1356
01:12:16,285 --> 01:12:19,644
generally, I think that's not an issue.

1357
01:12:20,244 --> 01:12:21,364
If a good project

1358
01:12:21,364 --> 01:12:23,364
is out there,

1359
01:12:23,724 --> 01:12:25,604
the first project is the one

1360
01:12:25,604 --> 01:12:27,785
that everyone tends to use

1361
01:12:27,785 --> 01:12:29,524
unless we really

1362
01:12:29,524 --> 01:12:32,584
screw up in a big way.

1363
01:12:33,944 --> 01:12:35,444
But also, you know, competition is good.

1364
01:12:36,164 --> 01:12:37,324
Anyone else forking it

1365
01:12:37,324 --> 01:12:39,504
and doing something interesting,

1366
01:12:39,624 --> 01:12:40,404
we can take it back.

1367
01:12:41,604 --> 01:12:44,264
And a very low fee

1368
01:12:44,264 --> 01:12:47,285
means that there is much less incentive

1369
01:12:47,285 --> 01:12:48,084
to fork it.

1370
01:12:49,564 --> 01:12:50,864
And because we are protocol,

1371
01:12:51,004 --> 01:12:51,844
we can offer a low fee

1372
01:12:51,844 --> 01:12:53,224
because there's not much for us to run.

1373
01:12:53,224 --> 01:12:55,344
We don't have any legal team.

1374
01:12:56,144 --> 01:12:58,464
We don't have expensive servers.

1375
01:12:59,524 --> 01:13:02,924
So what is your revenue engine then?

1376
01:13:03,004 --> 01:13:03,664
Is it the hub?

1377
01:13:04,664 --> 01:13:05,964
It's the protocol.

1378
01:13:07,964 --> 01:13:10,324
Built into the software itself,

1379
01:13:10,644 --> 01:13:16,364
it's baked into the protocol a fee-paying output.

1380
01:13:16,764 --> 01:13:19,724
So when you create a transaction, an investment transaction,

1381
01:13:20,684 --> 01:13:22,984
you create for every stage a UTXO,

1382
01:13:23,624 --> 01:13:29,344
but the first UTXO is the fee that is paid to an address that we control.

1383
01:13:29,524 --> 01:13:33,564
And the second UTXO is the opritone, and then the stages.

1384
01:13:34,824 --> 01:13:38,164
But if the code is open source, can't the address be changed?

1385
01:13:38,824 --> 01:13:39,084
Yeah.

1386
01:13:39,324 --> 01:13:40,244
At the protocol level?

1387
01:13:40,424 --> 01:13:40,564
Okay.

1388
01:13:40,785 --> 01:13:40,904
Yeah.

1389
01:13:41,684 --> 01:13:44,604
But you will have to fork the code, change the address, and redeploy it.

1390
01:13:45,204 --> 01:13:48,764
And then you would have to tell everyone that is running your version

1391
01:13:48,764 --> 01:13:52,144
that you didn't make any other changes in the code, if you know what I mean.

1392
01:13:53,764 --> 01:13:54,364
Got it.

1393
01:13:54,364 --> 01:13:59,144
So this is actually an interesting model, which I don't think I've heard of before.

1394
01:13:59,524 --> 01:14:06,824
because i see normally when when you when someone says i have a protocol

1395
01:14:06,824 --> 01:14:09,844
i obviously i'm not going to make any money on it because it's open source

1396
01:14:09,844 --> 01:14:13,524
it's for the people but i've i've created the first implementation of

1397
01:14:13,524 --> 01:14:18,164
instantiation of that protocol that's and i have the first mover advantage and

1398
01:14:18,164 --> 01:14:20,704
i become the trusted face and that's that's what happens

1399
01:14:20,704 --> 01:14:24,744
in your case you actually baked in the split or whatever right the fee

1400
01:14:24,744 --> 01:14:26,184
at the protocol level.

1401
01:14:26,824 --> 01:14:27,305
Wow.

1402
01:14:28,864 --> 01:14:30,524
I mean, it really is.

1403
01:14:30,664 --> 01:14:32,424
I don't know of anyone else who is doing it.

1404
01:14:32,484 --> 01:14:33,724
Maybe Wasabi Wallet.

1405
01:14:34,644 --> 01:14:36,084
But they're running a coordinator,

1406
01:14:36,344 --> 01:14:38,144
so they are providing some backend services.

1407
01:14:40,785 --> 01:14:44,264
And there's no legal entity anymore for Wasabi, right?

1408
01:14:44,324 --> 01:14:45,224
I think that's dissolved

1409
01:14:45,224 --> 01:14:48,724
for my last conversation with Max.

1410
01:14:48,724 --> 01:14:49,844
But they still have...

1411
01:14:49,844 --> 01:14:53,164
I mean, if there is anyone running coordinators,

1412
01:14:53,164 --> 01:14:57,204
they will still be making some revenue on the fees.

1413
01:15:00,204 --> 01:15:01,164
You're right, it is an interesting...

1414
01:15:01,164 --> 01:15:01,864
That is audacious, Dan.

1415
01:15:02,384 --> 01:15:03,944
You are an audacious man.

1416
01:15:04,224 --> 01:15:06,904
That's all I can say on that.

1417
01:15:06,964 --> 01:15:10,164
Hey, look, we have to find ways to make...

1418
01:15:11,644 --> 01:15:13,844
It's nice to create open source

1419
01:15:13,844 --> 01:15:17,864
and give from your own time and build for free,

1420
01:15:17,984 --> 01:15:20,024
but we have to find ways to make money

1421
01:15:20,024 --> 01:15:22,305
when building open source software.

1422
01:15:23,164 --> 01:15:24,564
if we want to scale.

1423
01:15:25,204 --> 01:15:26,545
I don't think you can scale

1424
01:15:26,545 --> 01:15:28,204
just by having developers.

1425
01:15:29,384 --> 01:15:31,144
Because eventually somebody pays, right?

1426
01:15:31,204 --> 01:15:32,724
If you get software for free,

1427
01:15:32,864 --> 01:15:34,004
it means the developer worked

1428
01:15:34,004 --> 01:15:36,384
and he paid his time to build it for you.

1429
01:15:38,904 --> 01:15:40,344
And that won't scale.

1430
01:15:41,104 --> 01:15:42,404
I don't think that can scale.

1431
01:15:44,244 --> 01:15:44,545
Oh, yeah.

1432
01:15:44,805 --> 01:15:46,144
I mean, that's, yes.

1433
01:15:46,424 --> 01:15:47,684
People's time and labor

1434
01:15:47,684 --> 01:15:49,124
needs to be compensated somehow.

1435
01:15:50,244 --> 01:15:52,224
Can't go into a black hole.

1436
01:15:52,484 --> 01:15:52,744
Agreed.

1437
01:15:53,164 --> 01:15:55,884
So what's next Rango, Dan?

1438
01:15:56,624 --> 01:15:59,684
What is the evolution going to look like

1439
01:15:59,684 --> 01:16:00,864
over this year and next year?

1440
01:16:01,664 --> 01:16:03,224
Oh, wow, yeah, good, good.

1441
01:16:03,944 --> 01:16:05,244
We want to finish the desktop

1442
01:16:05,244 --> 01:16:07,944
and maybe a mobile wallet.

1443
01:16:08,124 --> 01:16:08,744
That's first.

1444
01:16:08,744 --> 01:16:11,464
And hardware wallets.

1445
01:16:11,824 --> 01:16:12,864
To implement hardware wallets,

1446
01:16:12,924 --> 01:16:14,124
I think we are going to need some changes

1447
01:16:14,124 --> 01:16:15,924
in the library and Bitcoin.

1448
01:16:17,184 --> 01:16:20,004
So that depends on available time

1449
01:16:20,004 --> 01:16:21,244
on making those changes

1450
01:16:21,244 --> 01:16:23,684
or if we can find another developer

1451
01:16:23,684 --> 01:16:25,244
to make those changes and pay them.

1452
01:16:27,045 --> 01:16:28,524
So those two things.

1453
01:16:28,724 --> 01:16:30,464
But what I would like to see is

1454
01:16:30,464 --> 01:16:35,144
one idea that came up is to create a hackathon hub

1455
01:16:35,144 --> 01:16:40,744
which will be used in Bitcoin events for hackathons.

1456
01:16:41,984 --> 01:16:43,364
So we would fork the hub

1457
01:16:43,364 --> 01:16:46,624
and we would adapt it a bit for more hackathon style

1458
01:16:46,624 --> 01:16:49,944
and then let events use it for them

1459
01:16:49,944 --> 01:16:52,104
if they want to offer hackathons and so on.

1460
01:16:54,444 --> 01:16:56,364
Trying to create...

1461
01:16:56,364 --> 01:16:59,144
I mean, there are all kinds of cool features

1462
01:16:59,144 --> 01:17:00,285
we could add to Angor.

1463
01:17:00,785 --> 01:17:02,664
So maybe funding those features

1464
01:17:02,664 --> 01:17:04,004
will happen on Angor itself.

1465
01:17:04,764 --> 01:17:06,664
Like maybe a feature will take three months to build

1466
01:17:06,664 --> 01:17:08,424
and a developer will get funding on Angor

1467
01:17:08,424 --> 01:17:09,204
to build that feature.

1468
01:17:13,305 --> 01:17:14,184
But basically...

1469
01:17:14,184 --> 01:17:17,604
Can I pause you real quick, Dan,

1470
01:17:17,604 --> 01:17:19,644
and then we'll get back to the roadmap

1471
01:17:19,644 --> 01:17:25,184
I think you're going to need a hub hackathon first

1472
01:17:25,184 --> 01:17:27,684
before you get a hackathon hub

1473
01:17:27,684 --> 01:17:30,404
you know, it's a bit of a chicken, right?

1474
01:17:30,524 --> 01:17:31,704
because you need a hackathon

1475
01:17:31,704 --> 01:17:32,164
chicken and the egg

1476
01:17:32,164 --> 01:17:35,324
right, you need a hackathon for people to build out different hubs

1477
01:17:35,324 --> 01:17:38,124
and hopefully one of those hubs ends up being a hackathon hub

1478
01:17:38,124 --> 01:17:39,785
and then you have a hackathon hub

1479
01:17:39,785 --> 01:17:43,684
no, but carry on, carry on

1480
01:17:43,684 --> 01:17:47,464
yeah, for example, we sponsored the hackathon in Riga

1481
01:17:47,464 --> 01:17:50,704
and that was together with Geyser.

1482
01:17:50,704 --> 01:17:53,704
So the hackathon, the project's listed on Geyser

1483
01:17:53,704 --> 01:17:55,464
and eventually the winners, they came and created

1484
01:17:55,464 --> 01:17:56,464
a project on Angor.

1485
01:17:56,464 --> 01:18:00,344
So maybe this could be, this friction could be gone away

1486
01:18:00,344 --> 01:18:02,464
by creating first a project on Noster

1487
01:18:02,464 --> 01:18:15,493
and then it already appears on your hackathon hub We exploring all kinds of ideas here and trying to make it more streamlined because it will be an open source project

1488
01:18:16,313 --> 01:18:17,633
So nobody will be running it.

1489
01:18:17,793 --> 01:18:19,193
It will be just you deploy your own hub

1490
01:18:19,193 --> 01:18:23,333
or your Hackathon Hub and run your own hub.

1491
01:18:25,253 --> 01:18:27,313
So going back to the roadmap.

1492
01:18:28,853 --> 01:18:30,593
Basically just getting more projects.

1493
01:18:31,573 --> 01:18:34,633
And maybe if there are very interesting projects

1494
01:18:34,633 --> 01:18:39,413
that I would like to invest in them.

1495
01:18:39,913 --> 01:18:42,033
So if you have the security of Vanguard,

1496
01:18:42,233 --> 01:18:44,693
then you may feel more confident

1497
01:18:44,693 --> 01:18:47,893
to put more money in a project you're investing in.

1498
01:18:53,593 --> 01:18:57,373
And you were talking about the potential UX enhancements, right?

1499
01:18:57,433 --> 01:18:58,413
With the desktop wallet.

1500
01:18:58,413 --> 01:19:00,093
And the UX enhancements, absolutely.

1501
01:19:01,513 --> 01:19:04,033
I think that definitely will come.

1502
01:19:04,633 --> 01:19:08,113
as soon as possible.

1503
01:19:10,953 --> 01:19:12,153
Yeah, another option

1504
01:19:12,153 --> 01:19:14,033
that we were thinking about

1505
01:19:14,033 --> 01:19:16,193
is using the bunker.

1506
01:19:17,573 --> 01:19:19,013
What is the NIP for bunker?

1507
01:19:19,113 --> 01:19:20,373
NIP 47, I think.

1508
01:19:22,433 --> 01:19:24,473
Where remote signing

1509
01:19:24,473 --> 01:19:28,193
for your Noster events.

1510
01:19:28,813 --> 01:19:31,033
So maybe extending that

1511
01:19:31,033 --> 01:19:32,453
so that you can have remote signing

1512
01:19:32,453 --> 01:19:34,053
for Bitcoin transactions as well

1513
01:19:34,053 --> 01:19:34,913
or Angular transactions.

1514
01:19:35,173 --> 01:19:38,653
And then using a web browser is probably safer

1515
01:19:38,653 --> 01:19:41,213
because you don't actually keep any keys on the browser.

1516
01:19:41,653 --> 01:19:44,753
You keep them on your application that runs the bunker.

1517
01:19:49,073 --> 01:19:51,173
All kinds of ideas are floating around.

1518
01:19:52,313 --> 01:19:52,873
Nice.

1519
01:19:53,933 --> 01:19:55,553
So what else are you working on?

1520
01:19:55,553 --> 01:19:58,273
How much has Nostor changed all this for you

1521
01:19:58,273 --> 01:20:03,253
as far as your development and your mindset on developing Andor?

1522
01:20:04,053 --> 01:20:09,613
First of all, I love Nostr,

1523
01:20:09,693 --> 01:20:12,073
and I think the potential of Nostr is insane.

1524
01:20:12,813 --> 01:20:14,213
Way more than just social.

1525
01:20:15,213 --> 01:20:18,253
We can be lots of apps on Nostr.

1526
01:20:19,273 --> 01:20:20,493
What did it change for me?

1527
01:20:20,613 --> 01:20:22,233
Basically, we don't have to run a backend.

1528
01:20:25,073 --> 01:20:27,553
This is a big deal, I think, for teams.

1529
01:20:28,293 --> 01:20:30,333
The dependency on you is reduced.

1530
01:20:30,333 --> 01:20:34,513
You just use the Nostra network

1531
01:20:34,513 --> 01:20:37,973
for any storage of data

1532
01:20:37,973 --> 01:20:40,693
or any interactions within users.

1533
01:20:42,173 --> 01:20:43,413
It's very interesting.

1534
01:20:43,893 --> 01:20:45,473
I like it very much so far.

1535
01:20:49,733 --> 01:20:51,893
And NIP 46, I believe.

1536
01:20:52,013 --> 01:20:53,693
NIP 46, the bunker, yeah.

1537
01:20:56,633 --> 01:20:57,313
Yes.

1538
01:20:57,313 --> 01:21:00,733
so Dan what else are you working on

1539
01:21:00,733 --> 01:21:02,773
anything outside of Angkor or this is

1540
01:21:02,773 --> 01:21:03,133
your

1541
01:21:03,133 --> 01:21:06,213
this takes up all your time and attention

1542
01:21:06,213 --> 01:21:07,933
yeah just Angkor for now

1543
01:21:07,933 --> 01:21:10,693
Angkor and trying to help the

1544
01:21:10,693 --> 01:21:12,753
Cypher Monk House in London

1545
01:21:12,753 --> 01:21:14,753
I mean

1546
01:21:14,753 --> 01:21:16,773
they do a lot of events so I like to

1547
01:21:16,773 --> 01:21:17,533
go there a lot and

1548
01:21:17,533 --> 01:21:19,753
participate where I can

1549
01:21:19,753 --> 01:21:22,393
and you know we should have

1550
01:21:22,393 --> 01:21:24,753
Cypher on the show just to talk about

1551
01:21:24,753 --> 01:21:26,253
the Cypher Monk House, Cypher is

1552
01:21:26,253 --> 01:21:28,393
working with you on Angor, correct?

1553
01:21:29,553 --> 01:21:30,913
He used to work on Angor.

1554
01:21:31,013 --> 01:21:32,053
He's sort of part-time,

1555
01:21:32,233 --> 01:21:34,933
but he decided to focus more on the Cypher Monk house.

1556
01:21:35,913 --> 01:21:36,153
Got it.

1557
01:21:36,153 --> 01:21:38,193
And it's really great what he's doing.

1558
01:21:38,913 --> 01:21:40,913
I must say, well done, Cypher.

1559
01:21:41,873 --> 01:21:43,233
You should definitely bring him.

1560
01:21:43,433 --> 01:21:44,773
He's a very interesting guy.

1561
01:21:45,853 --> 01:21:48,353
So on the Cypher Monk house itself,

1562
01:21:48,593 --> 01:21:50,873
is that like a Bitcoin park in London,

1563
01:21:50,873 --> 01:21:53,233
the equivalent of a Bitcoin park or one of those,

1564
01:21:53,233 --> 01:21:56,193
I guess Bitcoin spaces

1565
01:21:56,193 --> 01:21:57,573
that they've built out there?

1566
01:21:59,173 --> 01:22:00,193
Yeah, they

1567
01:22:00,193 --> 01:22:02,693
focus on art, Bitcoin art

1568
01:22:02,693 --> 01:22:04,753
but it is

1569
01:22:04,753 --> 01:22:05,753
definitely a Bitcoin

1570
01:22:05,753 --> 01:22:08,573
open space where

1571
01:22:08,573 --> 01:22:10,673
you could come

1572
01:22:10,673 --> 01:22:12,293
and you could learn about

1573
01:22:12,293 --> 01:22:14,713
self-custody, you can

1574
01:22:14,713 --> 01:22:16,173
learn how to use hardware wallets

1575
01:22:16,173 --> 01:22:17,473
they run

1576
01:22:17,473 --> 01:22:20,513
noob sessions for

1577
01:22:20,513 --> 01:22:22,793
people who want to learn how to use all kinds of wallets

1578
01:22:22,793 --> 01:22:24,773
they will even help you build your own

1579
01:22:24,773 --> 01:22:26,773
seed signer. It's really

1580
01:22:26,773 --> 01:22:28,433
cool and there is a lot of Bitcoin art

1581
01:22:28,433 --> 01:22:29,653
if you come to London

1582
01:22:29,653 --> 01:22:32,253
and you're a Bitcoiner you have to go to

1583
01:22:32,253 --> 01:22:33,053
Cyphermunkhouse.

1584
01:22:34,373 --> 01:22:35,813
Is that like the main spot

1585
01:22:35,813 --> 01:22:37,893
for Bitcoin in London? It's quite central

1586
01:22:37,893 --> 01:22:38,753
yeah it's quite central.

1587
01:22:40,493 --> 01:22:42,553
It looks like the upcoming events are

1588
01:22:42,553 --> 01:22:45,113
September 16th

1589
01:22:45,113 --> 01:22:47,073
Bitcoin 101 at 7pm

1590
01:22:47,073 --> 01:22:48,673
and then Bitcoin

1591
01:22:48,673 --> 01:22:51,153
and Chill September 21st

1592
01:22:51,153 --> 01:22:55,553
So some heavy hitting events coming up.

1593
01:22:56,713 --> 01:23:01,493
It's amazing to have a Bitcoin art space, Bitcoin art space QW.

1594
01:23:01,773 --> 01:23:03,093
I mean, we don't have that in the US.

1595
01:23:03,753 --> 01:23:10,873
It's mostly like, you know, little conference spaces or seminars and or technical spaces.

1596
01:23:11,053 --> 01:23:14,053
I don't believe there's a Bitcoin art space in the US.

1597
01:23:14,693 --> 01:23:15,593
I think about it.

1598
01:23:17,013 --> 01:23:17,533
Yeah.

1599
01:23:17,913 --> 01:23:18,813
Cool stuff.

1600
01:23:19,053 --> 01:23:19,233
Yeah.

1601
01:23:19,333 --> 01:23:20,373
I don't know either.

1602
01:23:20,373 --> 01:23:27,373
I think you definitely have to have a bigger, high-density Bitcoin area,

1603
01:23:28,253 --> 01:23:31,773
maybe like Pleb Labs or Bitcoin Park,

1604
01:23:32,273 --> 01:23:38,173
or maybe even up in New York with the pub key.

1605
01:23:38,833 --> 01:23:39,253
I can see.

1606
01:23:41,473 --> 01:23:43,453
Someone would have to really care about art

1607
01:23:43,453 --> 01:23:47,693
and maybe even start an Angor fund.

1608
01:23:48,213 --> 01:23:49,353
Challenge accepted.

1609
01:23:49,353 --> 01:23:58,173
so Dan any call to action for folks listening

1610
01:23:58,173 --> 01:24:00,073
how can they engage with Angor

1611
01:24:00,073 --> 01:24:02,593
what can they do to get more involved

1612
01:24:02,593 --> 01:24:07,353
if you have an idea

1613
01:24:07,353 --> 01:24:10,733
you want to try to get funding to build it

1614
01:24:10,733 --> 01:24:12,133
get in touch

1615
01:24:12,133 --> 01:24:17,153
but the high level call to action would be

1616
01:24:17,153 --> 01:24:19,213
go and invest in projects

1617
01:24:19,213 --> 01:24:23,013
because this is what will drive the ecosystem.

1618
01:24:23,513 --> 01:24:26,573
And Angular will give you guarantees

1619
01:24:26,573 --> 01:24:28,453
that your investment will not be wasted.

1620
01:24:31,353 --> 01:24:33,793
And this is what we need, I think.

1621
01:24:33,833 --> 01:24:35,813
We need more people to invest in developers

1622
01:24:35,813 --> 01:24:38,093
and in projects and in interesting ideas.

1623
01:24:39,253 --> 01:24:43,113
And I mean, the analogy I like to say

1624
01:24:43,113 --> 01:24:47,093
is that even if 1% of all hodled Bitcoin

1625
01:24:47,093 --> 01:24:50,733
will be allocated into building,

1626
01:24:50,893 --> 01:24:53,213
into funding in the space.

1627
01:24:53,393 --> 01:24:56,033
This is a lot of money for developers,

1628
01:24:56,313 --> 01:24:57,353
for talent to come over.

1629
01:24:58,813 --> 01:25:01,033
So the call to action is find projects

1630
01:25:01,033 --> 01:25:02,753
and try to get them to listen and go

1631
01:25:02,753 --> 01:25:03,613
and invest in them

1632
01:25:03,613 --> 01:25:06,613
and get your other Bitcoin friends

1633
01:25:06,613 --> 01:25:07,713
to invest in them as well.

1634
01:25:08,713 --> 01:25:12,753
And if there are people who have their own projects,

1635
01:25:12,953 --> 01:25:14,473
really cool, interesting projects,

1636
01:25:14,473 --> 01:25:19,233
and they want to reach out to you or someone from the Angor team

1637
01:25:19,233 --> 01:25:22,893
to see if you'd be interested in supporting them

1638
01:25:22,893 --> 01:25:25,553
with your marketing budget that you mentioned earlier.

1639
01:25:25,653 --> 01:25:27,013
What is the best way they could do that?

1640
01:25:28,253 --> 01:25:29,133
Good question.

1641
01:25:29,473 --> 01:25:30,593
We have a Telegram group.

1642
01:25:30,713 --> 01:25:32,993
We have a Signal group.

1643
01:25:33,233 --> 01:25:34,113
We have a Discord.

1644
01:25:35,493 --> 01:25:37,813
Or you can just go on Noster and ping me.

1645
01:25:38,813 --> 01:25:42,973
My account is available on Noster or anyone else of the team.

1646
01:25:44,473 --> 01:25:52,633
another way to capture my attention

1647
01:25:52,633 --> 01:25:54,733
is create a project on Algor

1648
01:25:54,733 --> 01:25:56,673
we recently

1649
01:25:56,673 --> 01:25:58,013
had a project created

1650
01:25:58,013 --> 01:26:00,133
21 Lat

1651
01:26:00,133 --> 01:26:01,513
it's the last one

1652
01:26:01,513 --> 01:26:03,753
the latest one on the hub

1653
01:26:03,753 --> 01:26:05,833
and this was organic

1654
01:26:05,833 --> 01:26:06,753
it came from

1655
01:26:06,753 --> 01:26:09,953
Tomek and Albi

1656
01:26:09,953 --> 01:26:12,373
21 years

1657
01:26:12,373 --> 01:26:13,933
is that what it means in Polish?

1658
01:26:14,473 --> 01:26:17,133
I think that's what it means

1659
01:26:17,133 --> 01:26:19,893
that's a project that totally just came to Angkor

1660
01:26:19,893 --> 01:26:21,513
without us trying to promote it

1661
01:26:21,513 --> 01:26:22,333
so this is really cool

1662
01:26:22,333 --> 01:26:23,953
the first one

1663
01:26:23,953 --> 01:26:26,253
and things like this

1664
01:26:26,253 --> 01:26:29,333
that would be cool

1665
01:26:29,333 --> 01:26:32,933
awesome

1666
01:26:32,933 --> 01:26:34,753
I guess that's my call to action

1667
01:26:34,753 --> 01:26:36,953
great

1668
01:26:36,953 --> 01:26:39,793
well Dan, appreciate you taking the time

1669
01:26:39,793 --> 01:26:41,973
and educating us on Angkor

1670
01:26:41,973 --> 01:26:43,653
lots of exciting stuff going on

1671
01:26:43,653 --> 01:26:54,513
And for me personally, thank you to you and to others on the Angor team for being early supporters and believers in Finding Home episode three.

1672
01:26:55,533 --> 01:26:57,253
QW, anything for Dan?

1673
01:26:57,813 --> 01:27:10,573
I just want to take a moment to appreciate Angor, how you've taken all the tools, whether it's Nost or Bitcoin, using our tools of our society, like the community and creators.

1674
01:27:10,573 --> 01:27:20,333
Really, it's a perfect collaboration of all these tools that we have as a culture to kind of expand the culture, I suppose.

1675
01:27:20,913 --> 01:27:22,353
So it's really neat.

1676
01:27:22,453 --> 01:27:26,313
I liked following along on Angor.io when you were talking.

1677
01:27:26,653 --> 01:27:27,933
I learned a lot.

1678
01:27:28,753 --> 01:27:29,513
Very intriguing.

1679
01:27:30,333 --> 01:27:33,473
It was a lot for me to wrap my head around.

1680
01:27:33,593 --> 01:27:40,473
But once I started seeing an emotion, it's pretty cool how you've taken all these technologies that were developed.

1681
01:27:40,473 --> 01:27:42,853
by other people over time, open source.

1682
01:27:43,153 --> 01:27:45,173
And it's just really an ode

1683
01:27:45,173 --> 01:27:47,173
to the open source community as well.

1684
01:27:48,053 --> 01:27:49,033
Absolutely. Thank you.

1685
01:27:49,093 --> 01:27:49,753
Thank you very much.

1686
01:27:50,073 --> 01:27:53,153
And I must say that many of the ideas

1687
01:27:53,153 --> 01:27:54,173
also come from the team.

1688
01:27:54,333 --> 01:27:55,093
We have a great team.

1689
01:27:55,753 --> 01:27:58,033
I'm not going to name anyone for privacy reasons

1690
01:27:58,033 --> 01:28:00,973
and they can just decide to reveal themselves.

1691
01:28:01,273 --> 01:28:04,753
But yeah, it's like all kinds of great ideas

1692
01:28:04,753 --> 01:28:05,933
all the time coming up.

1693
01:28:06,113 --> 01:28:08,933
And those that make sense, we try to implement them.

1694
01:28:08,933 --> 01:28:11,553
So thank you for having me on the show.

1695
01:28:11,953 --> 01:28:14,213
Thank you, Avi and QW, very much.

1696
01:28:15,733 --> 01:28:16,733
Thank you, Don.

1697
01:28:17,233 --> 01:28:17,753
Thank you.

1698
01:28:18,093 --> 01:28:20,953
And thank you for tuning in to Pleb Chain Radio.

1699
01:28:21,273 --> 01:28:24,313
If you appreciate us as much as we appreciate you,

1700
01:28:24,833 --> 01:28:27,893
listen on Fountain App and consider hitting the subscribe button.

1701
01:28:28,373 --> 01:28:30,073
Until next week, farewell.

1702
01:28:31,073 --> 01:28:31,653
Goodbye.