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Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses on the intersection of Nostra and Bitcoin protocols.

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Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers, doers and plebs.

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All right, we are live.

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Welcome, gentle plebs, to the Lightning Laced Airwaves. Today is Friday the 13th of June and it is episode 116 of A Pleb Chain Radio. We have a fun show.

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So Verge and Benjamin join us to talk about legacies and lockers, and we'll find out what that is all about.

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And a reminder, folks, if you are listening to the show on Apple or Spotify, first of all, thank you for listening.

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But I would urge you to hit pause and switch over to the Fountain Podcasting app, where you can earn some sats and support the value for value revolution while you listen.

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And while you're there, it would be incredible if you hit the subscribe button and support the show.

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And you will also earn early access, that is 24 hours early, to all of our episodes and exclusive access to our bonus episodes.

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This show is streamed live on Zap.Stream and any other Noster client that supports streaming such as Amethyst and Noster.

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So, and QW, I have a bit of a personal update here.

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We don't do a lot of this on the show.

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We don't talk about ourselves much.

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We try to be empty vessels to the culture, to our guests,

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but I feel compelled to share this important personal update

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because I'm so excited by it.

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Yesterday, QW, I turned in my resignation to the fiat mines

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with an end date of July 4th,

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very pointedly chosen end date.

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I am a free man, QW, after all these years.

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They do say homelessness is next to godliness, Avi.

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I hope you don't have a chair,

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a spare chair in your homeless ventures in the future.

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I sold my chair in a boating accident.

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qw that is the sad story um but yes it's uh it's it's this is a long time coming qw and i finally

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i'm looking forward to see which avi comes out after this because i know it's been grueling i

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know it's been eating at you i know that uh it it's it's just been you know i i can sense obviously

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we we talk every week but it's something where you know it's it's really it was uninspiring it

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is eating away at your creativity.

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And I'm just excited to see that butterfly

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come out of the cocoon here.

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I appreciate you saying that, QW.

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That is very much the plan.

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By the way, folks, I have nothing lined up.

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So I have taken a leap into the complete unknown.

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I don't know where the money's going to come from,

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but that's okay.

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I have jumped.

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And the hope is, the belief is,

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the net will appear.

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So we shall see.

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And for our meme readout today, QW,

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it is a single frame meme of Morpheus from The Matrix,

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asking, what is central banking?

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Control.

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Central banking is built to keep us under control

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in order to turn a human being into this.

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And as he says that, he very pointedly holds up a missile.

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and with that qw i am sure as you always do you have been paying attention to nostor and

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bitcoin culture what are you seeing well uh everything vibe everything vibe vibe code vibe

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have you been vibe coding avi i most definitely have qw and by the way let me just quickly say

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for folks who are not familiar.

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Alex Gleason and his wife MK

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have released an incredible tool

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called MKStack

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where you can use the command line

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in natural language,

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tell it what you want,

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and watch your life savings.

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No, I'm kidding.

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Watch magic happen

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with apps being created.

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Now, of course, you'll need to,

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you can use SATs to buy the credits

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to use the AI models, but it is truly remarkable that within 20 minutes, you can build a fully

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functional NOSTA app because the system they've built has the full NOSTA context.

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So here's my concern with Vibe coding. We're going to have so much wasted time, I feel like,

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on the user end because people will be vibing all these apps say,

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Hey, come use my app.

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And then when the bugs come down the road,

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they're onto the next thing.

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It's I think corn's been doing a lot of meetings about this kind of just

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onto the next thing flavor of the week.

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But it's, it's something I'm seeing a lot of people come out with.

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Oh, try this Nostra app, which is great.

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It's great to actually see that.

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But at the same time, I'm just thinking, man,

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there's going to be a lot of wasted time.

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AI is supposed to save time, right?

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But if you think about the accumulation of users,

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there's going to be a lot of dead space there.

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So on that, QW, completely agree,

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but I also think it's a phase.

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And right now with Vibe coding getting easier and easier

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for non-devs just speaking in natural language

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and watching magic happen in front of their eyes,

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things that were scarcely fathomable a year ago, right?

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We are in the mania phase of Vibe coding.

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It's almost like Nostra apps or just Vibe-coded apps in general are the new meme coins, right?

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What about the Nostra badges during that craze?

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You know, if you go to your Nostra badges and you have 30 of them, that was a pretty wild time.

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Not necessarily important anymore, but it's certainly a phase.

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but by the way on nostril badges and we'll maybe we'll talk later with verge and benjamin about it

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but there is a case to be made in healthcare that badges will make a comeback as provider

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credentials but we'll we'll get there and then secondly culture corner nostril bama uh we're

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getting closer now july 14th through the 17th and then there's another one pinging on our radar

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I actually got this shared to me in my local Bitcoiner chat, and it's, you know, our friend Rev Hoddle, Lake Satoshi, August 1st through the 3rd.

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So that's starting to come into our window.

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That's mid-Michigan, that beautiful campsite right on the lake, Lake Satoshi, where the plebs will be.

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That's one of those bucket list items.

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If I could drive to it, I absolutely would.

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flying in getting camping gear that's a whole nother thing so maybe one day I will drive to it

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you know it sounds nice KW but when the minute I hear the word camping it goes hand in hand at

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least in my head with a distinct lack of indoor plumbing infrastructure which is very concerning

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to me Avi we're talking you're on the homeless path right now come on you better get used to it

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pooping in the park.

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Wait, that's something else.

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That's Ordinals.

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That's not good.

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All right.

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So who is our roast this week, Avi?

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You know, QW, this is a pattern as old as the Roast the Zapper segment

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in blockchain radio, which is we roast our top zapper,

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and they suddenly get, and they hear the roast,

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They get so excited that they become our top zapper for the next week as well.

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So as it turns out, it is our dear friend, the Lightning Store, or as we affectionately know him, Sam.

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So Sam, I guess I'll just invent my own internet means, is apparently allergic to having free time.

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Most people choose between starting a rock band or launching a tech company.

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Sam looked at the fork in the road, shrugged, and plowed straight ahead while silk screening the road signs himself.

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Lightning store? Wavelake?

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If there's a new project that involves merch, music, and Bitcoin, odds are Sam's already squatting on the domain name,

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screen printing the t-shirts, and composing the jingle, all before you've finished pronouncing proof of work.

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Meanwhile, his warehouse looks like Willy Wonka's factory got a side hustle.

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Boxes of vinyl on one conveyor belt, hoodies on another,

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and somewhere in the middle, Sam's hacking micropayment code on a laptop

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balanced atop a stack of unsent birthday cards for every Kickstarter he backed in 2014.

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And let's be honest, nobody has ever been more surprised by the arrival of a freight truck

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than Sam, who'll greet the driver with a smile that says,

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great, now where am I going to put 12,000 limited edition kazoo keychains?

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But here's the real mystery.

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For a guy who's basically fused to a thermal label printer,

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he still writes hooks catchier than COVID in a karaoke bar.

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So, raise a lightning invoice to Mr. Means,

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the only person multitasking hard enough to earn royalties and transaction fees in the same breath.

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Long may he juggle.

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And QW, you have quite the sermon in store for us today.

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Can I just say there's only one other thing catchier than COVID besides Sam Means or Lightning Store?

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And that's that Pleb Chain Radio shirt that's in Lightning Store.

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We sold another shirt last week, Avi.

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Celebrations, right?

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No way.

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One whole shirt?

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Well, there's only like four left.

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So it's something.

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I mean, we basically 20% of our supply dwindled in one week.

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So, you know, COVID, it's catchier than COVID.

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So we got whatever's left, medium, small.

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I think there's some large left.

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There's only a few left.

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They'll be gone forever.

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use the promo code or promo

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plug chain 20% off the entire store.

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We get nothing for this.

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So, you know, we love the fact

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that people are walking around

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in plug chain radio shirts.

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I wear them myself.

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Toot my own horn there, I suppose.

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But yeah, so the sermon today,

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it seems fitting, right?

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The bad UX the bad UX of sovereignty Avi is this a feature Is this a feature not a bug The bad UX of sovereignty Avi is this a feature not a bug The bad UX of Nostar and Freed Effect in general is most decidedly a feature

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Yes.

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From Faraday cages, doomsday bunkers, progressive web apps to test flight-only cutting-edge cypherpunk,

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our culture thrives on the fringe at the cost of a user experience.

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The unwavering ethos and principled approach of self-sovereignty is the gift and a curse.

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We want mass adoption because our passion and ideas reign supreme.

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But from the lens of a normie, we may be in too deep.

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From nodes to relays to block templates to op-return arguments, our focus is on the technicals and rarely the allure of UX.

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You know, cypherpunks wrote code, Avi, but these high-tech Hayekians were not focused on experience.

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At the time, privacy was at the forefront.

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Separating money and state was at the forefront.

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And at this time, what is our forefront?

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Have we evolved Sly Roundabout Way to include usability?

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And maybe that's it, Avi.

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Maybe we aren't built for UX.

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What do you say we bring our guests to change the mind?

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So basically, are we built for the bunker, Avi?

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I think so. We are bunker coiners.

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It really makes you think.

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I mean, as far as where Bitcoin became, all the way down to the cypherpunks in the 90s, all the PGP, the privacy, everything built into the ethos.

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How do you get that adoption?

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How do you get that user experience from a normie that just wants to, you know, obviously primal solving this, but there's a whole ethos of, you know, non-custodial, custodial, a whole argument there.

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How do we onboard more people?

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How do we get that experience better, but still keep our Puritan ways?

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And that's just, that's going to be the ultimate question for a long time.

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And I don't think it's getting solved today, but I'd love to talk about it.

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I think I have just the guy or just the guys to talk about this.

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So why don't we welcome Verge and Benjamin to PlapChain Radio?

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What's up, guys?

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Hey, how's it going, everybody?

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Excellent.

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Well, Verge, let's start with a burning question for you.

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does the revolution

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or will the revolution

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have bad UX

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oh that's a

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you know I'm going to tell you where it all starts

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from

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it starts with what feels right for you

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and maybe five other friends

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on Noster

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and if everything works out

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maybe 50 more people will send some

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zaps and some sats

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to make it even better

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all right obby he did make a good point because i i think in nostr um and and this is kind of

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i've never been in a community where devs were at the forefront of everything devs we know we

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love the devs we zap the devs uh they're coming out with different features different clients

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um but is it truly putting you know from a dev mind you know kind of like the left brain right

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brain, emotional, analytical, is there kind of a wall up for user experience or maybe what features

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someone would want or all these different bells and whistles that might not be necessarily

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what the actual user wants. And sometimes from a dev perspective, it might be a one-way road,

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whereas a UX guy like yourself, maybe you have a little bit more perspective or a little bit more

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We're like, we got to paint this the way it's like art for the consumer.

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Oh, 100%.

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Actually, that's what got Ben and I connected because we were in that hackathon, the Salute

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hackathon.

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He was like, hey, I have this business problem where I want to do something really cool to

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help people with their healthcare, with managing their patient data.

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I was like, okay, well, I can make that look good if we want to give it a shot.

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sometimes that's all it takes is a little bit of passion and someone with a good idea.

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For sure. So why don't we start with maybe some simple introductions here,

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to the extent that you're comfortable sharing. So we'll start with you, Ben.

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Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and what brought you to NOSTA.

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So, yeah, great question.

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I've been in software for about 20 years.

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Always dealt with the customer facing onboarding side.

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I have definitely worked with the back of the house for a long time.

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But what got me into Noster was starting to bring children into this world and trying to figure out different ways that the future might change for the things that they're going to have to adopt.

230
00:17:02,692 --> 00:17:12,172
in their future. So of course I went down kind of the activity pub area, a couple other kind of

231
00:17:12,172 --> 00:17:21,092
decentralized or try to be decentralized networks. Then I found Noster and I learned about Nips and

232
00:17:21,092 --> 00:17:27,872
my passion grew and my kids are growing up. So that's a lot of the why I got into Noster

233
00:17:27,872 --> 00:17:31,272
and what I'm excited about bringing to the table.

234
00:17:32,292 --> 00:17:36,852
QW, this sounds like a familiar story to you.

235
00:17:37,932 --> 00:17:41,792
You know, that's what activated me, Avi,

236
00:17:41,792 --> 00:17:43,832
and I think you've heard that story many times.

237
00:17:44,492 --> 00:17:50,592
My son is now two and a half, and how old's our show, Avi?

238
00:17:51,972 --> 00:17:53,492
About two and a half years old.

239
00:17:53,492 --> 00:18:02,272
so inspiration comes knocking uh an opportunity fell along the way via my dms with you javi so

240
00:18:02,272 --> 00:18:09,132
and by the way i cannot believe i i'm one of the few people that might think you're a genius javi

241
00:18:09,132 --> 00:18:14,492
because you asked me to do this show with you and that's just a genius move

242
00:18:14,492 --> 00:18:22,652
well that's one way of uh looking at it for sure uh no that's but but yeah when you when you when

243
00:18:22,652 --> 00:18:27,992
you bring life into this world, your perspective completely changes on the future. It's not just

244
00:18:27,992 --> 00:18:36,332
you. It's what can I do for this little warrior or this beautiful princess, whatever it may be.

245
00:18:36,572 --> 00:18:44,612
It's something where you all of a sudden feel empowered to do something. And Nostra is one

246
00:18:44,612 --> 00:18:50,472
of those places where you know social media is broken. You know a protocol can fix that,

247
00:18:50,472 --> 00:18:54,432
A communication protocol can fix so many things just like Bitcoin does.

248
00:18:54,992 --> 00:19:01,232
So it's something where if you're just sitting on your hands, are you doing what's best for the next generation?

249
00:19:01,432 --> 00:19:03,032
And that's kind of where my head was at.

250
00:19:04,832 --> 00:19:06,592
So, Ben, it is interesting.

251
00:19:06,792 --> 00:19:18,052
So you were – do I understand that you were not a Bitcoiner, that you were more interested from an engineering perspective about decentralized networks and you found NOSTA first?

252
00:19:19,052 --> 00:19:25,272
Well, I got into Bitcoin around COVID, early 2020.

253
00:19:25,932 --> 00:19:28,472
That's when I first started understanding more about it.

254
00:19:28,532 --> 00:19:30,832
And I think I actually read the white papers.

255
00:19:31,552 --> 00:19:34,092
And during that time, I was working in SaaS.

256
00:19:34,532 --> 00:19:38,552
So it related a lot to me going through that user experience.

257
00:19:39,652 --> 00:19:46,172
Then learning about, you know, decentralization, blockchain, everything else.

258
00:19:46,172 --> 00:19:49,252
kind of put me down that wormhole to find Noster.

259
00:19:50,312 --> 00:19:52,292
But from the tech side,

260
00:19:52,372 --> 00:19:56,592
I think I'm definitely more with building freedom tech solutions

261
00:19:56,592 --> 00:20:01,912
rather than areas around finance.

262
00:20:05,232 --> 00:20:05,792
Yeah.

263
00:20:06,752 --> 00:20:07,892
Makes sense, Ben.

264
00:20:08,712 --> 00:20:10,072
Oh, Benjamin, I should say.

265
00:20:10,072 --> 00:20:18,092
Virg, you are a UX guy, as our listeners can't see this,

266
00:20:18,192 --> 00:20:24,052
but your username very proudly has UX in it, in square parentheses.

267
00:20:25,052 --> 00:20:25,352
Always.

268
00:20:25,552 --> 00:20:28,412
Why on earth did you end up on Noster?

269
00:20:28,592 --> 00:20:34,012
And, well, before we get to how you found Noster,

270
00:20:34,712 --> 00:20:36,632
just tell us a little bit about yourself.

271
00:20:36,952 --> 00:20:37,852
Oh, gosh.

272
00:20:38,072 --> 00:20:38,252
Okay.

273
00:20:38,252 --> 00:20:50,992
So the short story, 12-year-old kid back in the, I guess, when Commodore 64s first came out, my dad came home with one and said, why don't you play with this instead of running around the neighborhood?

274
00:20:51,572 --> 00:20:53,732
And ever since, I've been hooked on technology.

275
00:20:54,232 --> 00:20:55,172
Love to code.

276
00:20:55,372 --> 00:20:56,072
Love to hack.

277
00:20:56,812 --> 00:20:57,732
Figure stuff out.

278
00:20:59,852 --> 00:21:07,332
And around, I guess it was like 20, whenever the first Bitcoin Miami conference was, I was down there with a friend of mine.

279
00:21:07,332 --> 00:21:10,132
and they were talking about an Oster and I thought, oh, you know what?

280
00:21:10,172 --> 00:21:13,332
This thing would solve that problem of user logins

281
00:21:13,332 --> 00:21:18,712
because I was trying to hack around and build some little stupid social apps, media apps.

282
00:21:19,492 --> 00:21:22,472
And I played with it, put it down for a little bit

283
00:21:22,472 --> 00:21:26,712
and then came back to it because I was like, this is the future.

284
00:21:27,132 --> 00:21:29,932
This is everything that Bitcoin is except for identity.

285
00:21:30,412 --> 00:21:32,392
And I don't want to do anything else,

286
00:21:33,672 --> 00:21:37,092
which makes it very hard to work full time on contracts.

287
00:21:37,332 --> 00:21:41,872
Because all you think about is these crazy vibe-coded ideas that you want to start cranking out.

288
00:21:42,792 --> 00:21:44,092
And that brought me here.

289
00:21:45,152 --> 00:21:47,432
Wait, so do I understand this right, Virg?

290
00:21:47,432 --> 00:21:49,032
You are a full-time Nostrich?

291
00:21:50,552 --> 00:21:53,912
So I dabble in all the pools, I'm not going to lie.

292
00:21:54,352 --> 00:21:59,932
You're going to catch me on X, and you're going to catch me, you know, Virg online, Virg.online.

293
00:21:59,932 --> 00:22:00,992
I'm always everywhere.

294
00:22:01,832 --> 00:22:06,212
But Nostre and working for SATs is pretty much, it's been the gig for the last year.

295
00:22:06,212 --> 00:22:08,332
And it's hard to go back.

296
00:22:08,472 --> 00:22:11,492
So congratulations on leaving the fiat world.

297
00:22:12,012 --> 00:22:17,812
And welcome to the unchained or, you know, the magical world of sats.

298
00:22:18,612 --> 00:22:20,452
It's an exciting place to be.

299
00:22:21,232 --> 00:22:27,892
Let me expand on that because I have a friend, Heather, friend of the show.

300
00:22:28,432 --> 00:22:33,692
She's been a social media manager for years, you know, on all the legacy platforms.

301
00:22:33,692 --> 00:22:43,472
And she came to Noster and she, you know, obviously it's a different incentive, different world, plebs rule.

302
00:22:43,892 --> 00:22:49,112
But she got hired on by a company to do social media managing.

303
00:22:49,792 --> 00:22:53,692
And it's basically consumed her interest.

304
00:22:54,612 --> 00:23:01,612
So she still manages other companies via legacy, but she just loves Noster.

305
00:23:01,612 --> 00:23:04,912
She loves social media managing for Noster.

306
00:23:06,112 --> 00:23:11,732
Talk about just how different it, I mean, it truly drives your passion, right?

307
00:23:12,372 --> 00:23:13,152
Oh, a hundred percent.

308
00:23:13,572 --> 00:23:15,992
Like, again, like this is going to sound crazy.

309
00:23:16,032 --> 00:23:16,992
It's probably going to date me.

310
00:23:17,272 --> 00:23:32,744
I worked on a team building CD apps back in the day back in the nineties And there was this team of two that were building web applications for the company that I was at and I it looked really interesting and I got really excited I you know asked my manager to

311
00:23:32,744 --> 00:23:40,464
move me over to that team and got all consumed by it and Noster and where we are right now

312
00:23:40,464 --> 00:23:46,224
reminds me of those early days on the internet like you you can point yourself in any direction

313
00:23:46,224 --> 00:23:52,904
with any problem, and especially with some of this vibe code stuff, and just go. And just go

314
00:23:52,904 --> 00:23:58,764
and find five or 10 people who are into it and see where it goes. And I remember that from the web.

315
00:23:58,864 --> 00:24:04,164
I remember that from those first online gambling casinos and those first contesting engines.

316
00:24:04,684 --> 00:24:10,804
And here we are doing the exact same business problems, same ideas, but in this whole new way

317
00:24:10,804 --> 00:24:11,944
that's so exciting.

318
00:24:12,304 --> 00:24:14,244
And it's hard to put it down.

319
00:24:14,404 --> 00:24:15,644
Like, why would I want to go

320
00:24:15,644 --> 00:24:18,504
and work on a regular boring ass web application

321
00:24:18,504 --> 00:24:21,584
for some insurance company doing user experience

322
00:24:21,584 --> 00:24:24,244
when I can just like stay up all night

323
00:24:24,244 --> 00:24:27,584
with Claude or ChatGPT

324
00:24:27,584 --> 00:24:30,024
and try and figure out some magical interface?

325
00:24:30,784 --> 00:24:34,084
You're staying up all night with Claude too?

326
00:24:34,664 --> 00:24:37,184
Avi, are you jealous?

327
00:24:37,184 --> 00:24:37,344
Are you jealous?

328
00:24:40,804 --> 00:24:41,604
Claude was yours.

329
00:24:44,644 --> 00:24:45,524
We can share.

330
00:24:45,724 --> 00:24:48,944
I mean, you know, as long as it's not a freak off, we can share.

331
00:24:49,564 --> 00:24:54,864
So I don't know if you know, but Avi's other podcast, Rendezvous with Claude.

332
00:24:56,464 --> 00:24:57,984
Listen to the last episode.

333
00:24:57,984 --> 00:25:00,824
It's literally Avi talking to himself.

334
00:25:01,664 --> 00:25:03,424
It's interesting.

335
00:25:03,584 --> 00:25:04,424
Let me put it that way.

336
00:25:05,764 --> 00:25:06,284
I like.

337
00:25:06,744 --> 00:25:08,204
It's a vibe-coded podcast.

338
00:25:08,204 --> 00:25:18,404
but but yes so Benjamin are you full-time on Nostra or do you are you still have one foot in the fiat

339
00:25:18,404 --> 00:25:28,004
world yeah um my I definitely have one and a half foot in the fiat world I'd say um you know it keeps

340
00:25:28,004 --> 00:25:35,324
me pretty busy uh I'd like to grow out of that and get into kind of this uh decentralized economy

341
00:25:35,324 --> 00:25:43,624
so I'm learning as much as I can about you know Bitcoin and all the abilities and ways that it

342
00:25:43,624 --> 00:25:50,644
would help me and my family and my future but you know health insurance is really important

343
00:25:50,644 --> 00:25:56,904
and I'm not really sure too many companies right now paying full-time Bitcoin offering health

344
00:25:56,904 --> 00:26:02,544
insurance if y'all know any please let me know no I don't I will not have I will not be having

345
00:26:02,544 --> 00:26:09,544
health insurance now that i've quit my job and how do you feel about that i don't i don't know

346
00:26:09,544 --> 00:26:14,084
man but i had to do it there were there were more compelling reasons to quit but yes it is it is a

347
00:26:14,084 --> 00:26:19,264
fair point management right that they are you might you might need to talk to john gordon and

348
00:26:19,264 --> 00:26:26,404
see what kind of uh program you can get on that's uh paid in uh bitcoin right that's yes john i

349
00:26:26,404 --> 00:26:28,844
I think I've heard of him, John Gordon, right?

350
00:26:29,664 --> 00:26:34,124
Well, I mean, he did the show and we did talk about health care,

351
00:26:34,244 --> 00:26:39,024
but we were talking a little bit about crowd health too as an option.

352
00:26:39,824 --> 00:26:40,024
Yeah.

353
00:26:41,004 --> 00:26:41,244
Yeah.

354
00:26:42,524 --> 00:26:43,884
Let me know how it goes.

355
00:26:46,124 --> 00:26:47,204
No, I have to start a movement.

356
00:26:47,404 --> 00:26:48,384
This could be a whole movement.

357
00:26:49,304 --> 00:26:51,124
I'll use my guinea pig at this point.

358
00:26:52,244 --> 00:26:54,984
Kind of, I think that's a future that I'd like to see though.

359
00:26:54,984 --> 00:27:03,124
Like, you know, companies, if they're really starting to take this reserve on, maybe give their employees an option, right?

360
00:27:03,184 --> 00:27:06,704
And maybe that option is a different type of currency and that'd be Bitcoin.

361
00:27:06,984 --> 00:27:10,884
And maybe through that relationship, other networks can open up to it too.

362
00:27:11,104 --> 00:27:16,324
So I think that possibility is ahead of us and I'm really looking forward to it.

363
00:27:16,604 --> 00:27:20,404
But currently right now, you know, definitely got to stay in the fiat mines.

364
00:27:20,864 --> 00:27:24,324
So, you know, you brought up health insurance, Benjamin.

365
00:27:24,324 --> 00:27:26,524
And, you know, obviously, we're going to talk about health care in a second.

366
00:27:26,624 --> 00:27:36,004
But I will say, so without naming my former Fiat employer, it was a large, you know, health insurance company, let's just say.

367
00:27:37,244 --> 00:27:39,704
And I bought their policy.

368
00:27:39,804 --> 00:27:40,844
I was on their policy.

369
00:27:41,564 --> 00:27:47,624
And it was, you know, the deductible was something like $3,500 individual and the family was higher.

370
00:27:48,104 --> 00:27:50,264
So it was almost pointless.

371
00:27:50,264 --> 00:27:55,924
I'd have a percentage of my paycheck garnished every two weeks in premium.

372
00:27:56,704 --> 00:28:01,064
And then the couple of, I mean, knock on wood, my family and I are healthy.

373
00:28:01,524 --> 00:28:04,204
But a couple of occasions we'd show up for this and that.

374
00:28:04,844 --> 00:28:09,184
You always end up paying out of pocket until we met that deductible, right?

375
00:28:09,244 --> 00:28:14,424
And many times the co-pay wouldn't even kick in until the deductible was fully consumed.

376
00:28:14,944 --> 00:28:18,484
So at this point, I'm like, well, what am I exactly missing out on?

377
00:28:18,484 --> 00:28:22,084
I've worked at an insurance company on their technology team.

378
00:28:22,284 --> 00:28:23,844
They gave me a garbage policy.

379
00:28:24,744 --> 00:28:26,704
What exactly am I missing out on?

380
00:28:29,044 --> 00:28:29,524
Anyway.

381
00:28:30,224 --> 00:28:31,424
You're missing out on Freedom Tech.

382
00:28:31,644 --> 00:28:32,884
That's what you're missing out on.

383
00:28:33,444 --> 00:28:33,884
Welcome.

384
00:28:35,024 --> 00:28:37,424
Was that a question or a rant, Avi?

385
00:28:37,744 --> 00:28:40,624
A rhetorical rant.

386
00:28:41,264 --> 00:28:46,164
So, Virg, let us talk about – is this a topic you're familiar with, by the way, Virg?

387
00:28:46,164 --> 00:28:47,564
I want to talk about UX with you.

388
00:28:47,564 --> 00:28:48,784
I think you might know.

389
00:28:49,344 --> 00:28:49,844
Maybe.

390
00:28:50,024 --> 00:28:51,564
I mean, a little bit.

391
00:28:52,164 --> 00:28:53,304
I have a taste for it.

392
00:28:54,884 --> 00:29:00,284
So, you know, we all, I think I'm a technologist, Ben's a technologist.

393
00:29:00,684 --> 00:29:02,064
QW doubles, right?

394
00:29:02,144 --> 00:29:04,684
He's an excellent community organizer.

395
00:29:04,924 --> 00:29:07,544
He's a man of the people, QW.

396
00:29:08,264 --> 00:29:10,924
I'm in construction and project management.

397
00:29:11,244 --> 00:29:16,184
So I have a lot of supply chain management and can get things done.

398
00:29:16,184 --> 00:29:28,064
So that's where my head's at. But I've always had love for technology. And I was in those chat rooms and the AOL chat rooms is dating myself.

399
00:29:28,884 --> 00:29:28,984
Nice.

400
00:29:28,984 --> 00:29:43,084
But the point I'm getting at is, despite our disparate backgrounds, I think for all of us, maybe Benjamin, I won't speak for you, but UX is a dark art, right?

401
00:29:43,144 --> 00:29:44,364
I know how to build stuff.

402
00:29:44,464 --> 00:29:45,564
I know how to write requirements.

403
00:29:45,684 --> 00:29:48,824
I know how to get developers to build out the requirements.

404
00:29:48,824 --> 00:29:53,044
but that the psychology of UX itself

405
00:29:53,044 --> 00:29:56,064
and how you delight that end user,

406
00:29:56,184 --> 00:29:57,364
how you make them stay,

407
00:29:57,984 --> 00:30:00,564
seems like this dark, nefarious art.

408
00:30:00,964 --> 00:30:03,364
So can you help deconstruct that?

409
00:30:03,704 --> 00:30:06,504
What goes into a good user experience?

410
00:30:07,544 --> 00:30:11,104
You know, so 100%, you hit the nail on the head, Avi.

411
00:30:11,524 --> 00:30:12,564
It is a dark art.

412
00:30:13,724 --> 00:30:17,384
And when it's done well, it looks so easy and so obvious.

413
00:30:17,384 --> 00:30:25,564
but when it's not done well, it's just all bumps and uncomfortable situations like being a 15-year-old on your first date.

414
00:30:26,564 --> 00:30:37,124
And the secret is having that kind of curious mindset about what is 80% of the experience like in that area that you're thinking about

415
00:30:37,124 --> 00:30:43,904
and then figuring out the one or two things that would be delightful and amazing if only they had figured that out.

416
00:30:43,904 --> 00:30:50,404
and I've been doing UX since 2000, just to, again, like this is, that's my whole job,

417
00:30:50,784 --> 00:30:56,664
and I've learned over the years that every industry, every project, there's common things

418
00:30:56,664 --> 00:31:02,224
that we all expect, you know, like we might expect the menu button up at the top left,

419
00:31:02,224 --> 00:31:07,664
or we might put our name in first before we put in our address, and these sound like really basic

420
00:31:07,664 --> 00:31:12,324
things, but you get a room of technologists in the, you know, together, or you get a bunch of

421
00:31:12,324 --> 00:31:17,044
senior leaders of a company who actually probably don't book their own meetings.

422
00:31:18,024 --> 00:31:23,304
And they have no idea what the common patterns are. They don't understand what regular people do.

423
00:31:24,344 --> 00:31:28,824
And it takes a person like myself to raise a hand and say, hey, guys,

424
00:31:29,404 --> 00:31:33,724
you know, we don't need to reinvent the wheel. It's already been solved. But here's the area

425
00:31:33,724 --> 00:31:38,504
that we could really make the world a little better. And that's the secret to UX. I mean,

426
00:31:38,504 --> 00:31:44,664
And I would shout that from the rooftops and I ask everyone listening to take that into their own lives.

427
00:31:45,584 --> 00:31:47,984
But it sounds very abstract, Virg.

428
00:31:48,064 --> 00:31:48,744
It still does.

429
00:31:48,824 --> 00:31:52,204
It's like, you know, you're like one of those experts who like, this is so easy.

430
00:31:52,264 --> 00:31:53,344
What are you guys talking about?

431
00:31:53,484 --> 00:31:55,464
I just do this and this and it's all solved.

432
00:31:55,764 --> 00:32:00,004
Meanwhile, the layman is listening saying, what am I supposed to do here?

433
00:32:00,484 --> 00:32:02,744
Well, here's a comparable.

434
00:32:02,744 --> 00:32:03,904
Can I interject real quick, Virg?

435
00:32:04,284 --> 00:32:04,584
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

436
00:32:04,584 --> 00:32:06,864
Because you made me think of something.

437
00:32:06,864 --> 00:32:10,544
There was something that happened recently with all that Doge stuff.

438
00:32:11,324 --> 00:32:12,844
And there was a government website.

439
00:32:13,404 --> 00:32:17,104
And their login wasn't like in the top right.

440
00:32:17,864 --> 00:32:24,684
And it caused so much problems because it just wasn't where it's supposed to be.

441
00:32:25,324 --> 00:32:29,824
And they were going to submit a request to change that.

442
00:32:29,883 --> 00:32:31,904
And it would have taken like two months or something.

443
00:32:33,164 --> 00:32:36,464
And Doge did it in like 15 minutes.

444
00:32:36,464 --> 00:32:45,104
and everything was fixed. But that expectation of where things go is such a time saver. And

445
00:32:45,104 --> 00:32:52,184
just the smallest things like you mentioned, it was interesting that you said that, but carry on.

446
00:32:52,383 --> 00:32:58,144
Yeah. No, well, and so that's exactly it. The joke I would tell in every meeting,

447
00:32:58,184 --> 00:33:02,864
I would start any UX meeting where I would say, if I took you and put you at the front of your house

448
00:33:02,864 --> 00:33:07,064
and put in your hand a spoon and said, where does that spoon go?

449
00:33:07,724 --> 00:33:10,244
And people would think I would be a magician.

450
00:33:10,424 --> 00:33:12,644
I'd say, you probably would go in straight through your front door,

451
00:33:12,804 --> 00:33:13,904
probably through your living room.

452
00:33:14,164 --> 00:33:16,164
Maybe you turn right or left and you go into your kitchen

453
00:33:16,164 --> 00:33:19,224
and there's a set of drawers and you pull that first drawer

454
00:33:19,224 --> 00:33:20,324
or maybe the second drawer.

455
00:33:20,324 --> 00:33:26,404
And it's probably the first or second set of cutlery spots to put that spoon.

456
00:33:28,584 --> 00:33:29,964
It's a common pattern.

457
00:33:30,984 --> 00:33:31,724
Mine's the second.

458
00:33:32,124 --> 00:33:32,784
Mine's the second.

459
00:33:32,864 --> 00:33:43,004
Yeah. So so everyone will, you know, in the meeting and everyone on this call, if you're in this, you know, on this podcast listening might be like, holy shit, that's a common pattern.

460
00:33:43,604 --> 00:33:46,984
And there are so many of these patterns in everyday life.

461
00:33:46,984 --> 00:34:10,164
And all it is is just taking a little bit of time when you're building that interface or, you know, you got that idea of going on the web or going, you know, looking across the industry or looking for common examples or comparables and saying, well, what's this common pattern that I can maybe steal and borrow and, you know, judiciously change but still stay kind of on target?

462
00:34:10,164 --> 00:34:14,164
so like that doge screen i'm sure someone was really excited and said hey we're gonna do

463
00:34:14,164 --> 00:34:18,264
something different we're gonna put the login in a new spot because it's a chance to show that we're

464
00:34:18,264 --> 00:34:24,504
great designers and they get like a thousand complaints very humbling very very humbling

465
00:34:24,504 --> 00:34:30,724
fuck innovation or phone calls uh because you know now all of a sudden you need a a team of

466
00:34:30,724 --> 00:34:36,464
people fielding calls to help you sign in because it's not in the right spot exactly

467
00:34:36,464 --> 00:34:44,484
exactly that's interesting what what is the you know for our listeners frankly for me as well

468
00:34:44,484 --> 00:34:51,964
what is the distinction between ui user interface and ux because we tend to use those

469
00:34:51,964 --> 00:34:56,544
terms so interchangeably in fact we just say them in one breath ui ux right but but there

470
00:34:56,544 --> 00:35:02,804
clearly is a i would think uh in the field itself there is there are clear and distinct

471
00:35:02,804 --> 00:35:17,475
boundaries between the two I completely confused by the difference And sometimes I have to look at the definition of each just to remember which one was which Because to me an interface is an experience

472
00:35:17,936 --> 00:35:21,995
But, you know, sometimes it's just semantics.

473
00:35:24,035 --> 00:35:27,495
They need to change the names, I think, is what it comes down to.

474
00:35:28,335 --> 00:35:29,876
Well, I mean, do they, though?

475
00:35:29,936 --> 00:35:32,876
Because, like, they both get you to the same place.

476
00:35:32,876 --> 00:35:39,856
just one of them really pays attention to what you or you know your user or the individual is doing

477
00:35:39,856 --> 00:35:46,396
and the other one is just painting the colors of the screen maybe changing the sizes of the buttons

478
00:35:46,396 --> 00:35:52,135
because they're really focused on the the the ui the interface of it whereas like the user

479
00:35:52,135 --> 00:35:56,675
experience it's really about like where are they standing when they're looking at their phone

480
00:35:56,675 --> 00:36:01,715
what's going on off the screen what stuff are they thinking about in their heads you know are

481
00:36:01,715 --> 00:36:07,495
they in a high state of stress because they're looking for their bank account to pay a bill,

482
00:36:07,696 --> 00:36:12,655
and it's a big bill, so they got to make sure that the bank account number and the account number

483
00:36:12,655 --> 00:36:17,515
and the amount of money they're transferring is easily shown on the screen at the same time

484
00:36:17,515 --> 00:36:24,295
so they can feel confident in that transaction. UI, everybody gets UI. The color of the buttons,

485
00:36:24,295 --> 00:36:30,416
the color of the screen, the size of the font. UX is like, don't just do the screen. Think about

486
00:36:30,416 --> 00:36:34,675
why, think about where, think about the context, and let's make it a little better.

487
00:36:36,475 --> 00:36:42,775
Yeah. I think that's a really nice way of thinking about it, Virg, which is UI is the

488
00:36:42,775 --> 00:36:46,035
look and feel, is what you're looking at.

489
00:36:46,275 --> 00:36:46,735
100%.

490
00:36:46,735 --> 00:36:53,335
And UX is, well, you know, what you're going through, right? What's happening to you.

491
00:36:53,335 --> 00:37:00,936
So Benjamin, you're a developer, and presumably you, right, that's what you said.

492
00:37:01,936 --> 00:37:11,815
And you've been, I'm sure, been in multiple situations where you've been given requirements or wireframes, and you need to hook those up.

493
00:37:11,956 --> 00:37:18,595
As a developer yourself, how do you, what is your interaction with the UI and the UX?

494
00:37:18,815 --> 00:37:19,936
How do you think about that?

495
00:37:19,936 --> 00:37:30,515
you know um from a creative developer stance i am not that right i i would definitely say i'm more

496
00:37:30,515 --> 00:37:37,615
of the vibe code but i've worked in software for a while so i know how to kind of communicate to

497
00:37:37,615 --> 00:37:43,975
the developing parts so by working in customer success with software for a long time i've had

498
00:37:43,975 --> 00:37:50,356
to kind of communicate those what we would call like feature adjustments, maybe based off the

499
00:37:50,356 --> 00:37:58,115
customer's feedback on rollouts. And I think it really just comes down to the solution of what

500
00:37:58,115 --> 00:38:05,215
we're trying to provide and bring the users into. And sometimes we try to make it seem similar.

501
00:38:05,215 --> 00:38:13,196
So all the social apps have the same interfaces, but maybe some of the other types of apps that

502
00:38:13,196 --> 00:38:19,975
people are using are laid out, you know, differently based off it being a music app or a video app.

503
00:38:20,436 --> 00:38:28,396
I don't think we're really trying to recreate the wheel or do something, you know, to confuse the

504
00:38:28,396 --> 00:38:35,075
user because a lot of the times, from my experience, the user just wants to be prompted in the easiest

505
00:38:35,075 --> 00:38:42,795
place possible, especially with their username and password and being able to get them to

506
00:38:42,795 --> 00:38:48,475
where they see the most return on their investment or where they find the most enjoyment of their

507
00:38:48,475 --> 00:38:54,936
time in that app. So, you know, through that, through that, um, it's, it's really just the

508
00:38:54,936 --> 00:39:00,135
grind of listening to the community of who's keeping that company or that solution or that

509
00:39:00,135 --> 00:39:06,916
business alive and adapting to, um, the user's feedback, uh, as far as if there's a right way

510
00:39:06,916 --> 00:39:12,396
or a wrong way. Um, I think the wrong way is not listening to those that you're providing the

511
00:39:12,396 --> 00:39:19,135
service to and the right way would probably be applying that yeah that makes a lot of sense right

512
00:39:19,135 --> 00:39:26,376
i mean there is you know there is a joke in software development where this would be so much

513
00:39:26,376 --> 00:39:32,495
easier if it weren't for the pesky customer right but the fact is you your product lives and dies

514
00:39:32,495 --> 00:39:40,055
based on the customer feedback and how they interact with it uh so just tacking on to that

515
00:39:40,055 --> 00:39:46,896
Verge, you know, we started off with the patterns themselves, right? The common established patterns

516
00:39:46,896 --> 00:39:55,315
in user behavior. But is there, I guess, tying it back to this being a dark art to most people

517
00:39:55,315 --> 00:40:02,075
on the outside, is there even more of a psychological component that you need to understand

518
00:40:02,075 --> 00:40:08,675
as a user experience person beyond just the common patterns? Yeah. Could you talk about that?

519
00:40:08,675 --> 00:40:16,775
Yeah. I mean, like, well, this is this is the challenge, right, is if you're just doing UI 100 percent, you just build the screens.

520
00:40:17,115 --> 00:40:31,755
But understanding people's motivations, understanding what's what feels good, not just what needs to be done, is the difference between getting those support calls or getting, you know, really good reviews in the app store.

521
00:40:31,755 --> 00:40:35,896
which is like if you ever want to know what depression is like,

522
00:40:36,235 --> 00:40:40,315
release an app and then go and wait 30 days and read all the App Store reviews.

523
00:40:40,555 --> 00:40:44,315
It's like people have all kinds of problems.

524
00:40:44,456 --> 00:40:47,055
They'll tell you every problem with every part of the business

525
00:40:47,055 --> 00:40:50,095
that is not related to the screen itself.

526
00:40:50,835 --> 00:40:55,436
And that's when you realize that user experience is really about making people feel good,

527
00:40:55,976 --> 00:41:01,255
feel like they're listened to, and almost not cherished,

528
00:41:01,755 --> 00:41:05,055
but definitely celebrated as they're going through the experience.

529
00:41:05,416 --> 00:41:07,615
I mean, this is why Ben and I started working together,

530
00:41:07,615 --> 00:41:11,856
because we were both coming from that viewpoint, that thought space,

531
00:41:12,015 --> 00:41:15,655
when we were looking at Wellness Ally and Legacy Locker.

532
00:41:15,835 --> 00:41:19,275
We were like, how do we make people feel good about the fact that they're on this health journey?

533
00:41:20,995 --> 00:41:23,275
Because it's not just screens, it's experiences.

534
00:41:24,555 --> 00:41:26,515
So you're doing a lot of this.

535
00:41:27,075 --> 00:41:29,655
Obviously, you're a Nostromaxie at this point.

536
00:41:29,775 --> 00:41:31,335
Well, for the most part, short of-

537
00:41:31,335 --> 00:41:31,775
100%.

538
00:41:31,775 --> 00:41:33,896
You're playing with the pools.

539
00:41:33,896 --> 00:41:44,795
But passion-wise, looking at Nostra and all the clients that keep coming out, there's a lot to be done on the UI and UX side.

540
00:41:46,735 --> 00:41:55,396
Do you try these new apps out or clients out, and you're like, oh, my God, they need me type of thing?

541
00:41:56,735 --> 00:41:58,456
Well, you know, yes.

542
00:41:58,456 --> 00:42:00,575
I try everything that comes across.

543
00:42:00,575 --> 00:42:05,555
Like if I see something and it looks interesting, like, you know, note deck or whatever, of course I got to download it and try it.

544
00:42:07,815 --> 00:42:10,396
There's got to be an element of OCD involved.

545
00:42:11,335 --> 00:42:13,595
Well, so this is the thing that's funny, right?

546
00:42:14,075 --> 00:42:26,315
Is even if you make the worst experience, you could, you know, not to call out porn sites, but they don't make it easy if you sign up and put in your credit card number to get your credit card off of it.

547
00:42:26,595 --> 00:42:27,675
I'm not saying I'm that guy.

548
00:42:27,675 --> 00:42:32,376
But when people have a desire, even the worst interface, they'll figure it out.

549
00:42:32,635 --> 00:42:33,715
They'll hate you the whole time.

550
00:42:33,976 --> 00:42:37,115
But if it's something they want to do, they will jump through those hoops.

551
00:42:38,815 --> 00:42:43,015
The feds will never give you your information back just to let you know.

552
00:42:43,396 --> 00:42:44,035
Yeah, exactly.

553
00:42:44,635 --> 00:42:45,075
Exactly.

554
00:42:45,896 --> 00:42:48,896
Yeah, the FBI van that's outside my house right now.

555
00:42:48,956 --> 00:42:49,595
Hi, guys.

556
00:42:50,095 --> 00:42:51,615
Hope you're having a great day.

557
00:42:52,275 --> 00:42:53,275
Freedom tech lives.

558
00:42:53,275 --> 00:43:02,815
but is there actually just to follow up on qw's question do you look at so you because you're so

559
00:43:02,815 --> 00:43:08,115
committed to nostril you're like hey i'll do what it takes so your natural ux critic doesn't come

560
00:43:08,115 --> 00:43:13,956
out and say holy crap what were they thinking no no the thing where it makes a difference is

561
00:43:13,956 --> 00:43:20,956
where are people paying to use this platform and are they still happy once they've you know put in

562
00:43:20,956 --> 00:43:27,416
their sats or you know used a pro used a service like a like a relay service for a month and had a

563
00:43:27,416 --> 00:43:33,835
complaint and there's no support site like that's where that's where i'm i find i spend a lot of time

564
00:43:33,835 --> 00:43:40,995
in uh the current era of nostr just looking at people's githubs and seeing you know the same

565
00:43:40,995 --> 00:43:45,795
design patterns and thinking well how you know what's their support site what's their sla how

566
00:43:45,795 --> 00:43:51,115
are they talking to the customers like where can they where can they turn their problems or their

567
00:43:51,115 --> 00:43:57,956
their complaints into something that's not monetized but at least less awkward

568
00:43:57,956 --> 00:44:08,976
obvi remember december of 20 uh what 22 right uh when we all joined nostr we were posting invoices

569
00:44:08,976 --> 00:44:15,595
the UX was absolutely miserable, but we were having so much fun.

570
00:44:16,135 --> 00:44:19,456
I feel like that whole, the bad UX of sovereignty,

571
00:44:20,215 --> 00:44:24,396
us as plebs, we have a little bit of rose-colored eyes with this.

572
00:44:25,535 --> 00:44:30,595
Whereas normies or just regular people that want to onboard onto, you know,

573
00:44:30,755 --> 00:44:34,675
Noster, they're really going to have, you know,

574
00:44:34,735 --> 00:44:37,476
those are the people you need to really be listening to.

575
00:44:37,476 --> 00:44:44,916
and I'm sure would resonate with what Virg is talking about the most.

576
00:44:44,916 --> 00:44:49,835
And it's weird because it's tough to have that lens

577
00:44:49,835 --> 00:44:52,655
when you have so much sovereign bias, right?

578
00:44:53,416 --> 00:44:53,936
For sure.

579
00:44:54,215 --> 00:44:56,075
So actually, on that note, Virg,

580
00:44:56,515 --> 00:45:00,615
if you were to onboard a normie friend,

581
00:45:00,896 --> 00:45:02,115
someone you cared for,

582
00:45:02,235 --> 00:45:07,175
but you knew that they didn't particularly care for freedom tech or anything, right?

583
00:45:07,476 --> 00:45:11,575
and you were trying to get onboard them onto Noster, what app would you use?

584
00:45:12,635 --> 00:45:16,655
So, you know, I got to give a shout out to Hustle,

585
00:45:17,215 --> 00:45:21,155
because Runster was one of the first apps that I saw

586
00:45:21,155 --> 00:45:25,555
that really stepped outside of the space of us Noster people.

587
00:45:26,635 --> 00:45:28,916
Because it was on a genuine use case.

588
00:45:28,916 --> 00:45:32,495
If you're someone who wants to run, if you're someone who wants to do something,

589
00:45:33,035 --> 00:45:35,976
and you just happen to use the Noster login,

590
00:45:35,976 --> 00:45:41,255
it's the perfect app it's the perfect app to introduce new people to the platform same with

591
00:45:41,255 --> 00:45:47,655
wave lake i i i'm a big fan of wave lake i've sent it around to a bunch of my music production

592
00:45:47,655 --> 00:45:51,976
friends and told them hey pay attention to this because in the next year or two this is where

593
00:45:51,976 --> 00:45:57,775
everything's going and it's it's around those everyday use cases that people are doing that

594
00:45:57,775 --> 00:46:02,155
you know before they did it on spotify and before spotify they did it on napster like they're these

595
00:46:02,155 --> 00:46:07,356
general everyday activities people are doing and now we're just replacing the login with

596
00:46:07,356 --> 00:46:17,075
Noster login. It's funny he says that Avi. On Tuesday I'm doing my very first live in person

597
00:46:17,075 --> 00:46:24,735
podcast one-on-one with Sam from Wave Lake and music and Wave Lake and you know everything

598
00:46:24,735 --> 00:46:30,376
the history the past present and possibly a little bit of the future will be discussed in

599
00:46:30,376 --> 00:46:32,376
in that show.

600
00:46:33,295 --> 00:46:34,535
And to our listeners,

601
00:46:35,215 --> 00:46:36,195
you can,

602
00:46:36,835 --> 00:46:38,155
if you want to,

603
00:46:38,235 --> 00:46:39,495
and why wouldn't you want to?

604
00:46:39,735 --> 00:46:41,115
Sounds like an incredible episode,

605
00:46:41,215 --> 00:46:41,495
QW.

606
00:46:41,976 --> 00:46:43,255
You can listen to it

607
00:46:43,255 --> 00:46:45,495
if you are a premium subscriber.

608
00:46:45,835 --> 00:46:47,155
So go to the Fountain app

609
00:46:47,155 --> 00:46:49,416
and do the needful.

610
00:46:50,995 --> 00:46:51,916
But Virg,

611
00:46:51,956 --> 00:46:52,396
you mentioned,

612
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:57,787
wave lake verge you too you too just five dollars a month man just five dollars

613
00:46:57,787 --> 00:47:04,707
avi doesn't have a job anymore come on man help him out i was gonna ask avi are you wearing pants

614
00:47:04,707 --> 00:47:10,167
have you gone that far off the fiat path now that you're not working full-time are you in pants or

615
00:47:10,167 --> 00:47:19,687
pajamas or no i i am still in uh in trousers uh verge i am two weeks you you know what right now

616
00:47:19,687 --> 00:47:25,547
Go on Costco or go on Amazon, get five pairs of pajama pants, because that's all you're going to need.

617
00:47:26,327 --> 00:47:30,467
He definitely aged himself with going to Costco to get pants.

618
00:47:31,027 --> 00:47:32,487
So I'm with it, man.

619
00:47:33,607 --> 00:47:34,787
Yeah, I go to Kmart.

620
00:47:35,187 --> 00:47:36,247
I don't know about you, KW.

621
00:47:37,847 --> 00:47:42,427
But you mentioned Wavelake and Runster.

622
00:47:42,747 --> 00:47:48,627
And as it turns out, because they're both Nostra clients, Wavelake is integrated into Runster.

623
00:47:48,627 --> 00:47:49,727
How cool is that?

624
00:47:50,067 --> 00:47:50,367
Seriously.

625
00:47:51,067 --> 00:47:52,047
This is what's so exciting.

626
00:47:52,247 --> 00:47:55,507
You want to know why I'm so excited about being here where we are right now?

627
00:47:56,027 --> 00:47:57,247
That's exactly why.

628
00:47:57,787 --> 00:47:58,967
There was no contracts.

629
00:47:59,307 --> 00:48:02,927
There was no media thing or lawyers involved.

630
00:48:03,087 --> 00:48:07,227
Just two great developers were like, hey, it would be cool if we could do this shit together.

631
00:48:07,967 --> 00:48:08,847
And now it happens.

632
00:48:09,367 --> 00:48:11,227
And that's the Nostra community.

633
00:48:11,227 --> 00:48:33,087
It's like literally I remember this kind of vibe going to like those hacker events and those kind of like cypherpunk events back in the late 90s in Toronto and, you know, learning about VR and VRML and all those early HTML, you know, kind of like even before JavaScript when we were still writing everything in shell script.

634
00:48:33,367 --> 00:48:35,207
And that's what this feels like.

635
00:48:35,207 --> 00:48:40,667
Like if you have a good idea and you can make it, you can find those integrations with other people, everybody wants to work together.

636
00:48:41,227 --> 00:49:05,507
Yeah. And the beauty of Nostra is even if you don't, if someone doesn't want to work with you, it's permissionless. So the other person can start using your app. But so speaking of permissionless, Benjamin, no one, you didn't take anyone's permission, but you built Legacy Locker and Wellness Ally, which I think is an evolution of that.

637
00:49:05,507 --> 00:49:10,447
So do you want to talk about that journey and then tell us a little bit about what that is?

638
00:49:11,227 --> 00:49:38,247
Yeah, definitely. So we can start with Wellness Ally. It's kind of the holistic approach to getting users their kind of personalized health data back to them under their ownership, whether that's locally or hosted on a self-hosted network like an umbrella.

639
00:49:38,247 --> 00:49:46,867
and kind of where we're starting at with the wellness ally has to do with kind of tracking

640
00:49:46,867 --> 00:49:54,807
journal entries if you're taking supplements or medication whether that's eastern or western

641
00:49:54,807 --> 00:50:02,907
medication there's a tracker for that and some mindfulness tools right so trying to get the

642
00:50:02,907 --> 00:50:09,787
users more aligned with themselves and kind of away from the device, but being able to capture

643
00:50:09,787 --> 00:50:15,567
those important moments for when the time's needed. Then we will definitely want to build

644
00:50:15,567 --> 00:50:23,807
into adding an emergency QR access, which we think would really be beneficial in real world scenarios.

645
00:50:24,587 --> 00:50:31,927
But those are the holistic approaches that we want to take with Wellness Ally. And that is a

646
00:50:31,927 --> 00:50:39,167
network that's starting to build into the bigger idea, which is Legacy Locker.

647
00:50:39,907 --> 00:50:43,087
And I can talk a little more about that if you're interested.

648
00:50:44,587 --> 00:50:45,207
Please.

649
00:50:46,207 --> 00:50:56,307
So the idea with Legacy Locker is, you know, every year or every couple years, we change

650
00:50:56,307 --> 00:50:58,867
practitioners, specialists.

651
00:50:59,407 --> 00:51:00,847
Maybe we change insurances.

652
00:51:01,927 --> 00:51:04,347
with our company.

653
00:51:05,587 --> 00:51:07,927
Maybe we bring a new life into the world.

654
00:51:09,007 --> 00:51:12,227
Maybe we move states or cities or countries.

655
00:51:13,687 --> 00:51:16,067
And when we need care during those times,

656
00:51:16,627 --> 00:51:20,107
even with the systems that support our providers and the networks,

657
00:51:21,067 --> 00:51:23,467
sometimes that information doesn't travel with us.

658
00:51:24,367 --> 00:51:27,407
So I think it'd be a really good idea for us in the future

659
00:51:27,407 --> 00:51:34,207
to start getting the proof of work back to the patients and to the parents.

660
00:51:35,427 --> 00:51:40,027
So that when there's a care for need or a time for reflection,

661
00:51:40,927 --> 00:51:43,207
that hopefully the right energies can be used.

662
00:51:44,087 --> 00:51:53,467
And that's really the overall idea is one day I'm going to have to teach my kids to be adults

663
00:51:53,467 --> 00:51:55,127
and release them into the world.

664
00:51:55,307 --> 00:52:00,347
And depending on the guardrails or systems or networks that are supporting them currently,

665
00:52:01,107 --> 00:52:03,207
hopefully I can set them up for success.

666
00:52:03,207 --> 00:52:06,247
And hopefully I can educate them a little bit about themselves.

667
00:52:07,087 --> 00:52:15,547
So that, you know, when they're needing help or going through those changes and systems

668
00:52:15,547 --> 00:52:19,647
or moving just the way the market works or the way life works, right?

669
00:52:19,827 --> 00:52:21,687
I like to call it the roller coaster ride.

670
00:52:22,467 --> 00:52:29,287
So when those heavy turns come, hopefully we have the right data in our ownership to be able to exercise that correctly.

671
00:52:30,247 --> 00:52:37,027
And at the end of the day, it's not a fight against the system.

672
00:52:37,307 --> 00:52:38,727
It's a co-collaboration.

673
00:52:39,327 --> 00:52:41,487
We want the providers to have everything.

674
00:52:42,167 --> 00:52:46,167
But at the end of the day, the patients should also have their proof of work.

675
00:52:47,127 --> 00:52:49,247
So Nostra is a scary place.

676
00:52:49,347 --> 00:52:50,287
There's a lot of unknowns.

677
00:52:50,287 --> 00:52:55,627
And so we're starting with the most holistic approach towards that local storage for your health journal.

678
00:52:55,627 --> 00:53:10,587
If you're taking supplements or medication, then some additional kind of mindfulness tools, kind of self thought, self reflection, meditation practices, something to re energize the user's battery.

679
00:53:11,087 --> 00:53:18,227
Because at the end of the day, right, like sometimes the only time that we have to be plugged in is when we're asleep.

680
00:53:18,227 --> 00:53:23,027
And we plug in these devices all the time around us that we're plugged into.

681
00:53:23,167 --> 00:53:25,547
I got two monitors, a Bluetooth headset.

682
00:53:26,687 --> 00:53:28,287
They're all running off of power.

683
00:53:29,167 --> 00:53:32,587
But at what time during the day do I get to re-energize myself?

684
00:53:32,927 --> 00:53:46,367
So I think figuring out a way to communicate those for the user and creating what I'd like to call user enlightenment tools is really what I'm interested in bringing to the network.

685
00:53:46,367 --> 00:53:49,107
in the decentralized freedom tech space.

686
00:53:49,667 --> 00:53:51,947
So first it's the Wellness Ally app,

687
00:53:52,187 --> 00:53:53,967
and Virg and myself will be releasing that

688
00:53:53,967 --> 00:53:56,427
probably in two to three months.

689
00:53:58,187 --> 00:54:01,047
We will have a private beta released earlier than that,

690
00:54:01,147 --> 00:54:02,487
and we have a waiting list

691
00:54:02,487 --> 00:54:04,887
where we've had some good feedback,

692
00:54:05,187 --> 00:54:07,487
so we know who we're going to be sending that out to.

693
00:54:07,587 --> 00:54:10,027
If y'all are interested, please go to our website.

694
00:54:10,027 --> 00:54:12,107
It's wellnessally.me,

695
00:54:12,707 --> 00:54:14,047
and we'll put you on that

696
00:54:14,047 --> 00:54:15,667
and let you know when the private beta is there.

697
00:54:16,367 --> 00:54:20,067
And also, we're trying to build a framework.

698
00:54:20,847 --> 00:54:34,367
And that framework is to support the users inside of this ecosystem and also the developers to know that, hey, if you're building what we're building, let's co-collaborate so we can create better environments for everyone.

699
00:54:34,607 --> 00:54:38,507
So we're not creating a running app, but it'd be great to pull in the Runster data.

700
00:54:39,007 --> 00:54:43,907
So let's be interoperable and work and create what's best for our user experience.

701
00:54:43,907 --> 00:54:48,087
because I really feel like the future is headed towards micro apps

702
00:54:48,087 --> 00:54:53,467
with the way that everything is being expedited and experimented with.

703
00:54:54,867 --> 00:54:59,767
So, yeah, the Wellness Ally, Legacy Locker,

704
00:55:00,367 --> 00:55:04,367
it's kind of the first couple stomps in the ground

705
00:55:04,367 --> 00:55:09,627
to try to decentralize this healthcare data from the patient side

706
00:55:09,627 --> 00:55:12,087
because patients are users also.

707
00:55:12,087 --> 00:55:16,087
and at the end of the day, our experience is our proof of work.

708
00:55:18,007 --> 00:55:23,307
So, Virg, walk me through a simple user journey,

709
00:55:23,407 --> 00:55:28,827
a simple use case of someone who wants to use both Wellness Ally

710
00:55:28,827 --> 00:55:35,507
and eventually roll that up into the broader use case of Legacy Locker.

711
00:55:35,507 --> 00:55:40,567
What is the most simple user journey that our listeners can understand

712
00:55:40,567 --> 00:55:45,907
how to use these apps. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll give you two, actually. Two really good ones.

713
00:55:46,527 --> 00:55:52,167
So a good example, you know, I'll use my dad as an example. He's a great guy. He's a little senior

714
00:55:52,167 --> 00:55:59,827
and he takes medication fairly regularly, fairly regularly. And the thought has always been,

715
00:55:59,827 --> 00:56:05,307
if there was a way to remind him to take his medication and then I could set it up on his phone

716
00:56:05,307 --> 00:56:14,047
and also be able to see either privately or publicly some of those posts that he is complying

717
00:56:14,047 --> 00:56:20,547
and taking his medication, that'd be great. Or a doctor could, you know, incite or suggest to

718
00:56:20,547 --> 00:56:27,047
some of his patients that, hey, listen, let's get into this wellness ally space. And every time you

719
00:56:27,047 --> 00:56:33,447
go for a run, it'll show up on this feed and we can share this feed together. So the thought was,

720
00:56:33,447 --> 00:56:40,147
It started with, you know, there are these events that happen in our lives or these activities that we're doing, and we may or may not be doing it well.

721
00:56:40,887 --> 00:56:53,647
But what's an open yet private way of sharing that information to another person in an environment that can be, you know, that can live as long as it needs to live?

722
00:56:54,307 --> 00:56:55,747
And Noster is so great for that.

723
00:56:55,747 --> 00:57:03,027
it's so open and we have that kind of space where we can we can start to experiment and figure out

724
00:57:03,027 --> 00:57:11,727
how to do it well got it and how does that how would that fit into legacy locker

725
00:57:11,727 --> 00:57:19,147
well so this is where it gets exciting right is again thinking about that transition like so

726
00:57:19,147 --> 00:57:23,367
bit a bit of history when i was about 17 years old i had half a lung removed i had pneumonia

727
00:57:23,367 --> 00:57:25,047
that was really bad for a couple of years.

728
00:57:25,387 --> 00:57:26,667
It turned out I had a birth defect

729
00:57:26,667 --> 00:57:28,847
and they removed half my lung.

730
00:57:29,647 --> 00:57:32,067
So I've lived the majority of my life

731
00:57:32,067 --> 00:57:32,907
with a lung and a half.

732
00:57:33,587 --> 00:57:37,867
But from zero to 17 and 17 to 18, 19, 20,

733
00:57:38,447 --> 00:57:40,087
all that medical data,

734
00:57:40,867 --> 00:57:42,007
it lives somewhere.

735
00:57:42,127 --> 00:57:43,147
I don't know where it lives.

736
00:57:43,227 --> 00:57:44,427
I don't know what happened with it.

737
00:57:44,547 --> 00:57:45,587
But I know at one point,

738
00:57:45,667 --> 00:57:46,907
my parents were more accountable

739
00:57:46,907 --> 00:57:48,827
or responsible for my medical care.

740
00:57:49,127 --> 00:57:50,607
And then I aged into an age

741
00:57:50,607 --> 00:57:52,647
where I would take on that medical responsibility.

742
00:57:52,647 --> 00:58:09,628
And that data my doctor passed away the doctor that gave birth to me passed away somewhere in my 20s I had three giant folders of doctor information that I shuffled to this other doctor who then closed their practice I don know where my medical

743
00:58:09,628 --> 00:58:16,008
information went. This is back before computers. And it really struck a chord with me. So when Ben

744
00:58:16,008 --> 00:58:21,088
and I were talking about Legacy Locker and he was telling me about his experience and I was thinking

745
00:58:21,088 --> 00:58:25,788
and we're sharing these experiences like, yeah, what happens to this medical data? How do we own

746
00:58:25,788 --> 00:58:31,688
it? How do we pass it as a parent and our kid gets old enough to take it on themselves? Or how do we

747
00:58:31,688 --> 00:58:38,928
co-manage it with a parent, you know, a senior parent who may or may not be following their

748
00:58:38,928 --> 00:58:44,328
doctor's orders and keep the doctor in that conversation? And right now there's, you know,

749
00:58:44,488 --> 00:58:49,588
there's all this HIPAA stuff and privacy and I get it. I get it. We live in a dangerous world

750
00:58:49,588 --> 00:58:50,468
for medical data.

751
00:58:51,088 --> 00:58:54,368
But for the people that want to find

752
00:58:54,368 --> 00:58:56,248
an elegant way to share that information,

753
00:58:56,568 --> 00:58:58,128
we need a legacy locker.

754
00:58:58,268 --> 00:59:00,748
We need a locker to put that health data

755
00:59:00,748 --> 00:59:03,708
in a way that can be shared or transported

756
00:59:03,708 --> 00:59:05,268
or permissioned people in.

757
00:59:06,548 --> 00:59:09,428
And that started us on this whole journey.

758
00:59:13,848 --> 00:59:14,588
Love it.

759
00:59:16,448 --> 00:59:18,948
And the way I would explain it,

760
00:59:19,588 --> 00:59:28,208
With the legacy locker, it's definitely going to be storing more of the EHR and EMR information of the experiences of the user's timeline.

761
00:59:29,068 --> 00:59:36,108
That user doesn't need all that information carried around with them through a mobile app, but they do need it secured somewhere.

762
00:59:37,328 --> 00:59:44,468
And when they're trying to fill out information that might be redundant, because we all know what it's like to go through the system.

763
00:59:44,908 --> 00:59:48,508
We got to sit there, wait in line, fill out the same information.

764
00:59:49,588 --> 01:00:06,008
And, you know, life is different. Sometimes we make a wake up on the wrong side of the bed. Sometimes we're chipper as can be. But when we're filling out that data, let's be honest, sometimes we're not filling it out the best of our ability and being as honest or updated.

765
01:00:06,008 --> 01:00:12,068
so just think about the advocacy that we could have for ourselves and the time that we could

766
01:00:12,068 --> 01:00:19,188
save if we could figure out a way to commute that communicate that stuff and so a lot of it is how

767
01:00:19,188 --> 01:00:27,548
do we save save time and get that back to the patient and the provider so it's like a mini

768
01:00:27,548 --> 01:00:33,248
EHR that the patient's carrying around except that they don't have to your point Benjamin they

769
01:00:33,248 --> 01:00:39,328
don't have to carry all of their data with them on their phone, right? So how is it being stored

770
01:00:39,328 --> 01:00:45,288
on a Blossom server or is it just in the umbrella and it's connected over Tor? How exactly does that

771
01:00:45,288 --> 01:00:51,508
work? Yeah, there's a couple of ways that we're experimenting with and we'll definitely share

772
01:00:51,508 --> 01:00:57,988
that at a later time. We're really focused on getting the Wellness Ally app out there

773
01:00:57,988 --> 01:00:59,528
into the user's hands.

774
01:01:00,128 --> 01:01:02,348
And I think once we get that going,

775
01:01:02,608 --> 01:01:04,748
then we'll start releasing more of the information

776
01:01:04,748 --> 01:01:05,968
on the hardware.

777
01:01:07,488 --> 01:01:08,948
Yeah, but in all cases,

778
01:01:09,108 --> 01:01:11,148
our goal is to have a self-sovereign option

779
01:01:11,148 --> 01:01:17,828
that would be something like a Tor on an Umbro or a Start9.

780
01:01:18,908 --> 01:01:21,648
But definitely we want to make sure

781
01:01:21,648 --> 01:01:23,988
that it's a phone-first experience.

782
01:01:23,988 --> 01:01:27,228
And then as we get that momentum

783
01:01:27,228 --> 01:01:32,048
and we can start asking users what really feels elegant for them.

784
01:01:32,188 --> 01:01:36,228
Because I'm not pointing fingers at anyone,

785
01:01:36,528 --> 01:01:40,968
but I can tell you that my own Umbro can go a week being offline.

786
01:01:41,388 --> 01:01:46,028
And I might not even notice because I'm not doing a lot of lightning payments,

787
01:01:46,028 --> 01:01:48,548
so there's no reason to really check every day.

788
01:01:48,548 --> 01:01:51,768
And that's one of the things that when we started this idea,

789
01:01:52,328 --> 01:01:56,188
we realized we had to start to figure out.

790
01:01:56,188 --> 01:01:58,308
but it's so far down the road.

791
01:01:58,668 --> 01:02:00,808
We need to know what feels right for people

792
01:02:00,808 --> 01:02:03,788
and then build the thing that feels right for them.

793
01:02:07,768 --> 01:02:10,928
So you just admitted you're not a zapper, Virg.

794
01:02:11,768 --> 01:02:14,828
That's right, because your credit card is still stuck in the porn site, right?

795
01:02:15,068 --> 01:02:19,828
I mean, like, you know, that user experience.

796
01:02:21,648 --> 01:02:25,148
You've had maybe a little too much user experience on those sites,

797
01:02:25,148 --> 01:02:25,708
you know what I mean?

798
01:02:26,188 --> 01:02:33,628
If someone could only put together an OnlyZaps effectively, then life would be so much easier.

799
01:02:34,828 --> 01:02:36,048
We got close.

800
01:02:36,148 --> 01:02:37,668
We did have an e-girl rush.

801
01:02:38,688 --> 01:02:43,388
That was kind of a chronological timeline of that.

802
01:02:44,128 --> 01:02:45,708
That's something interesting.

803
01:02:45,708 --> 01:02:55,088
I kind of want to dive into that user experience of the early 90s online versus today.

804
01:02:55,088 --> 01:03:00,368
because everything's so algo driven and it's easy to say that because it's kind of a you know oh it's

805
01:03:00,368 --> 01:03:06,828
the algo it's the algo uh you know dopamine dopamine it's it's literally like uh coco melon

806
01:03:06,828 --> 01:03:13,528
your kid watching coco melon three inches from the screen um but i almost feel like the

807
01:03:13,528 --> 01:03:18,968
chronological timeline it's it's completely it's not dopamine to me it's almost like an oxytocin

808
01:03:18,968 --> 01:03:22,988
if there was a hormone to attach it to.

809
01:03:24,348 --> 01:03:26,848
You're still smiling, you're still having fun,

810
01:03:26,988 --> 01:03:30,308
but you're engaging with people and you're connecting.

811
01:03:30,808 --> 01:03:33,168
It's a different way to look at it.

812
01:03:33,508 --> 01:03:35,588
Sorry, I was just thinking about that.

813
01:03:35,928 --> 01:03:36,928
No, no, 100%.

814
01:03:36,928 --> 01:03:42,408
That is exactly the difference between Noster and X or Twitter,

815
01:03:42,408 --> 01:03:45,788
whatever name you want to call legacy social media.

816
01:03:45,788 --> 01:03:53,548
whereas in the past it was very not in the past in non-NOSTER experiences it is very algo driven

817
01:03:53,548 --> 01:03:59,088
but in NOSTER like I feel like I the people that I follow and you know kind of chirp at every once

818
01:03:59,088 --> 01:04:04,348
in a while and and bug I feel like I live a little bit in their lives they live a little bit in my

819
01:04:04,348 --> 01:04:10,928
life you know they're definitely living rent-free in my head because that's the NOSTER experience

820
01:04:10,928 --> 01:04:16,288
It's that 150 people that you are regularly following because that's just what you're doing.

821
01:04:17,488 --> 01:04:28,868
Yeah, and in a way, something like Legacy Locker, you're putting your personal information into something and you're building a relationship with a client.

822
01:04:29,588 --> 01:04:34,928
Obviously, it's on Noster, but it's a very intimate thing where you have control over that.

823
01:04:35,188 --> 01:04:35,648
Exactly.

824
01:04:35,648 --> 01:04:46,148
So it's something where that user experience, it's different because it's personal and it's something that, you know, you own that.

825
01:04:46,608 --> 01:04:56,428
That private property aspect of Noster is something that, you know, we may not understand what that means because we've never had it.

826
01:04:56,788 --> 01:04:57,708
Yeah, yeah.

827
01:04:57,808 --> 01:04:59,828
And again, I'm going to date myself here.

828
01:04:59,828 --> 01:05:08,348
early in the before the internet when we had like first class servers and we had um bbs's and we had

829
01:05:08,348 --> 01:05:14,928
um you know like irc and and uh you know um command line kind of like chat rooms where you

830
01:05:14,928 --> 01:05:23,028
had this thing this place it did a very singular experience and you you you know you developed a

831
01:05:23,028 --> 01:05:28,788
kind of relationship with it that even though it didn't work well it it still it gave something or

832
01:05:28,788 --> 01:05:34,288
you shared an experience with people that mattered to you that, you know, again, going to date myself

833
01:05:34,288 --> 01:05:38,488
here, you're willing to drive hundreds of kilometers to go and hang out with because

834
01:05:38,488 --> 01:05:44,528
you feel an affinity to them. And we're at that stage now where we can have that with our data

835
01:05:44,528 --> 01:05:51,448
and we can wrap it with an AI or wrap it with some kind of visualization and start to really

836
01:05:51,448 --> 01:05:58,528
see ourselves in new ways. And Nostre enables it. Nostre makes it have its own identity. It can have

837
01:05:58,528 --> 01:06:05,628
its own, you know, personhood. And we can we can actually turn it into something more than just,

838
01:06:06,088 --> 01:06:10,608
you know, these are the posts that I put online. It's like more this is this is more of like my

839
01:06:10,608 --> 01:06:19,688
life experience as a, you know, a data entity. Yeah. And that whole IRL thing, Avi obviously

840
01:06:19,688 --> 01:06:25,648
quit his job to sleep on your couch verge. So get ready. Avi, come on over. Come on. I hope you can

841
01:06:25,648 --> 01:06:31,768
swim it is a little bit of a trek to the place but you know i do live on an island but you're

842
01:06:31,768 --> 01:06:38,268
welcome you're welcome to visit excellent well i appreciate the invitation but yeah i might be on

843
01:06:38,268 --> 01:06:46,528
the road you never know uh but let's talk about vibe coding here benjamin uh you've presumably

844
01:06:46,528 --> 01:06:53,508
this is all vibe coded right uh the website is yeah he's a vibe king he's playing it down

845
01:06:53,508 --> 01:07:02,468
is not um but yeah definitely vibe coded the wellness ally uh website now the uh

846
01:07:02,468 --> 01:07:07,928
software itself uh i think verge could probably talk a little more on that he's been teaching me

847
01:07:07,928 --> 01:07:14,628
a lot uh it's not fully vibe coded he has a he's a pretty big background in that um verge you want

848
01:07:14,628 --> 01:07:21,788
to talk a little bit about that well actually if i if i may sing you your praise benjamin i have

849
01:07:21,788 --> 01:07:27,748
like I vibe code and I can I'm a web developer by trade Ben was like okay I'm gonna try this

850
01:07:27,748 --> 01:07:33,848
thing tonight I got this idea and literally he would the next day we would get online and start

851
01:07:33,848 --> 01:07:37,348
chatting and he would have a whole website with functionality and everything he writes these

852
01:07:37,348 --> 01:07:44,788
recipes that have layers and layers of insights that I thought I understood vibe coding and I was

853
01:07:44,788 --> 01:07:51,688
like oh i'm proud i can i could use windsurf to build something ben does ben does things that are

854
01:07:51,688 --> 01:07:57,268
like incredible he he's playing it down he's a genius at vibe coding he won a hackathon vibe

855
01:07:57,268 --> 01:08:07,548
coding yeah you're the whisperer llm whisperer you know that's a good way to put it avi like

856
01:08:07,548 --> 01:08:12,468
you just got to have relationships in the right way to hopefully produce the right result

857
01:08:13,168 --> 01:08:17,948
And I think that's a lot of what I'm learning with these resources and these tools.

858
01:08:19,008 --> 01:08:20,828
It's not always about the solution.

859
01:08:21,908 --> 01:08:24,948
It's more about the problem, and you want to fixate on those problems.

860
01:08:24,948 --> 01:08:32,588
And you also want to think about the different users that might be facing those problems in the solution you're trying to provide.

861
01:08:32,588 --> 01:08:44,788
So if you're just trying to get straight to that solution, it might not have the best user experience or the best user flow or even the best content around it or the best layout.

862
01:08:45,588 --> 01:08:51,568
So what I would recommend to every Vibe Coder out there is think about all the departments.

863
01:08:51,568 --> 01:08:59,728
If you're really trying to build your company or your solution or your problem and bring it to the table and let let that ecosystem grow.

864
01:09:00,288 --> 01:09:07,148
Think about all the departments that you're going to have to hire and how are they going to support all those users building what you're using?

865
01:09:07,728 --> 01:09:25,589
Or if you just experimenting have fun and prompt away and use natural language But that where I tend to find my success in vibe coding is more based off of the scenario approach not off the ask

866
01:09:25,809 --> 01:09:27,609
Because it already knows what to do.

867
01:09:27,689 --> 01:09:29,349
You just got to put it in the right place.

868
01:09:29,349 --> 01:09:43,189
And with all the advancements of what Alex has created and MK, and I think y'all were talking about this earlier on the podcast, I mean, that's only expedited my potential.

869
01:09:43,909 --> 01:09:49,949
Because let me tell you this, I've been copying and pasting for 20-something years, right?

870
01:09:49,949 --> 01:09:59,089
And so if you're telling me I can be creative and copy and paste and it's going to work, then I don't really think it has to do with being a developer.

871
01:09:59,349 --> 01:10:05,829
I think it has to do with the time and energy and the intent that you're putting into your projects.

872
01:10:06,949 --> 01:10:17,649
Benjamin, can you give a simple example of this recipe or scenario-based Vibe coding as opposed to natural language or simple prompt-based Vibe coding?

873
01:10:19,549 --> 01:10:28,529
Hmm. So, yeah. Let's see here.

874
01:10:28,529 --> 01:10:40,489
So when it comes to figuring out what you're trying to build, you can work with multiple different LLMs and they'll provide you different types of feedback on what you're going to build.

875
01:10:41,109 --> 01:10:48,169
And depending on what agents you're going to be working with, it might be good to enlighten that other agent as well.

876
01:10:48,729 --> 01:10:53,009
If you're only using one agent, you might only be getting one perspective.

877
01:10:53,009 --> 01:11:00,609
so think about the documents that you're creating and how those co-create with each other to help

878
01:11:00,609 --> 01:11:09,029
find that kind of macro solution and then figure out the type of communication that you need to

879
01:11:09,029 --> 01:11:15,309
input into each prompt if you don't know the technicality and then there's a recipe right like

880
01:11:15,309 --> 01:11:22,349
there's a recipe in cooking once you kind of know what you're going to be cooking because you have

881
01:11:22,349 --> 01:11:30,889
all your formula down, you boil the water first. And so think about the temperature that you're

882
01:11:30,889 --> 01:11:37,849
boiling that at. So I know I'm using a lot of analogies here, but just do it with care.

883
01:11:38,409 --> 01:11:42,769
And you'd probably get a little different results. Hey, man, I just don't want to

884
01:11:42,769 --> 01:11:46,949
burn my life savings on API credits. Can you just tell me how to do it right, please?

885
01:11:46,949 --> 01:11:54,369
well hey there's no right way there's only user feedback and i think that's the thing that we need

886
01:11:54,369 --> 01:12:00,869
to grow into because we're all experimenting and we're all creating these great ideas but at the

887
01:12:00,869 --> 01:12:06,449
end of the day they're just ideas until the adoption grows and then that's where the runway

888
01:12:06,449 --> 01:12:13,369
hits so we can be experimenting and we can be alchemists all that we want but if no one's using

889
01:12:13,369 --> 01:12:16,049
or magic, it's like it doesn't even exist.

890
01:12:17,269 --> 01:12:17,409
Yeah.

891
01:12:19,169 --> 01:12:23,509
But I will say, if you're looking for an economical way

892
01:12:23,509 --> 01:12:27,709
to get into vibe coding, I'm not a shill for Windsurf,

893
01:12:28,189 --> 01:12:32,269
but Windsurf, at their price point and the number of credits

894
01:12:32,269 --> 01:12:36,049
or tokens they give you, you can do a lot.

895
01:12:36,129 --> 01:12:37,309
You can get pretty far.

896
01:12:37,489 --> 01:12:39,049
You can get pretty far down the path.

897
01:12:40,889 --> 01:12:41,369
Okay.

898
01:12:41,369 --> 01:12:49,789
you heard it here folks windsurf is where it's at yeah i mean like don't get me wrong i tried

899
01:12:49,789 --> 01:12:54,729
i tried cursor code use the promo code verge when you go to windsurf

900
01:12:54,729 --> 01:13:01,589
no like no seriously like i i want everybody like i'm not sure i'm not i'm not a shill i'm

901
01:13:01,589 --> 01:13:05,349
just saying like everyone who's listening to this podcast and is like oh you know i want to give

902
01:13:05,349 --> 01:13:11,429
something a try. I want to experiment. It's one thing to go to like chat GPT or Claude and use

903
01:13:11,429 --> 01:13:19,529
their web interface and try and copy and paste the code out. It's not easy. And sure, cursor exists

904
01:13:19,529 --> 01:13:25,229
and is really good or replet. I mean, I know Ben is a big replet guy. He loves replet. I don't love

905
01:13:25,229 --> 01:13:31,829
replet, but he loves replet. But I have found every single time I will pop open that Windsurf IDE.

906
01:13:31,829 --> 01:13:35,409
I make two folders. The first folder is

907
01:13:35,409 --> 01:13:39,229
CollabDocs and then the second folder is

908
01:13:39,229 --> 01:13:42,389
Gitcode and I just start writing the ideas

909
01:13:42,389 --> 01:13:46,529
in the CollabDocs and then I just tell it to go build it in the Gitcode

910
01:13:46,529 --> 01:13:48,889
and it just kind of comes together.

911
01:13:52,769 --> 01:13:55,489
Avi, I love the fact that I'm the only one here

912
01:13:55,489 --> 01:13:59,489
that has no interest in VibeCoding. Well, I mean maybe a little bit but

913
01:13:59,489 --> 01:14:10,109
Like, I always say Avi's going to be Job from Lawnmower Man, you know, the guy that got fully inducted into the metaverse.

914
01:14:10,529 --> 01:14:11,069
Yes.

915
01:14:11,249 --> 01:14:16,649
Because he became the deep, he was deep learning himself as far as the machine learning.

916
01:14:17,209 --> 01:14:23,529
So it's one of those things where I'm very timid about, but at the same time, I know how much potential it has.

917
01:14:23,529 --> 01:14:30,889
So it's a very fine line to walk when the machines are actually learning from you the whole time, too.

918
01:14:31,369 --> 01:14:32,149
Oh, 100%.

919
01:14:32,149 --> 01:14:32,529
100%.

920
01:14:33,309 --> 01:14:34,189
And it's scary.

921
01:14:34,269 --> 01:14:43,249
It is a little scary when it starts using your phrasing and your thought process and, you know, scrapes the documents and talks to you with your language.

922
01:14:43,729 --> 01:14:46,149
And like, I didn't, you know, why does it know this about me?

923
01:14:47,389 --> 01:14:51,389
You start feeling like the AI and they start feeling like you.

924
01:14:51,389 --> 01:15:02,609
So, you know, theoretically, my thoughts are if you use AI well, it is the perfect mirror to the version of yourself you want to be to yourself.

925
01:15:05,949 --> 01:15:12,649
You know, my wife and I share our OpenAI Plus, our Chachi Biti Plus.

926
01:15:13,229 --> 01:15:16,569
When he says wife, he means Claudia, his AI.

927
01:15:16,569 --> 01:15:22,409
and I asked

928
01:15:22,409 --> 01:15:25,089
03 I said hey can you figure out

929
01:15:25,089 --> 01:15:26,869
which questions

930
01:15:26,869 --> 01:15:28,909
you know my wife asked

931
01:15:28,909 --> 01:15:29,889
and which ones I asked

932
01:15:29,889 --> 01:15:32,909
and 03 I think was

933
01:15:32,909 --> 01:15:34,809
99% accurate I think it missed

934
01:15:34,809 --> 01:15:37,069
it picked up on 20 or 30 of them

935
01:15:37,069 --> 01:15:39,249
and I think it was off on one of them

936
01:15:39,249 --> 01:15:41,349
and that was a fairly

937
01:15:41,349 --> 01:15:43,709
ambiguous one so it was able to categorize

938
01:15:43,709 --> 01:15:45,229
figure out

939
01:15:45,229 --> 01:15:48,109
my wife's personality and tone, my personality and tone,

940
01:15:48,249 --> 01:15:50,329
and separate the queries.

941
01:15:51,089 --> 01:15:52,669
Yeah, remarkable stuff happening.

942
01:15:54,249 --> 01:15:57,049
So, Virg, but, you know, vibe coding, yes, of course,

943
01:15:57,109 --> 01:15:59,689
everyone's vibe coding these days, except for QW.

944
01:16:00,569 --> 01:16:05,789
But vibe framing, when vibe framing?

945
01:16:05,789 --> 01:16:10,069
Because, to me, I struggle with the UI.

946
01:16:10,189 --> 01:16:12,269
I'm not, like, a designer or anything, right?

947
01:16:12,269 --> 01:16:15,229
and you're kind of stuck with...

948
01:16:15,229 --> 01:16:16,249
Don't get me wrong,

949
01:16:16,509 --> 01:16:17,769
MKStack is fantastic, right?

950
01:16:17,789 --> 01:16:19,389
But they use the Stalwind CSS

951
01:16:19,389 --> 01:16:21,989
and Shad CN or whatever.

952
01:16:22,509 --> 01:16:23,509
I'm using the terms

953
01:16:23,509 --> 01:16:24,329
I actually don't even know

954
01:16:24,329 --> 01:16:25,209
what they actually do

955
01:16:25,209 --> 01:16:26,369
other than there's something

956
01:16:26,369 --> 01:16:27,169
to do with front end.

957
01:16:27,669 --> 01:16:28,929
Yeah, you're doing well.

958
01:16:30,189 --> 01:16:31,269
And it's all...

959
01:16:32,189 --> 01:16:34,129
All of them end up...

960
01:16:34,129 --> 01:16:36,089
If you look at some of the MKStack

961
01:16:36,089 --> 01:16:37,589
apps that are out there,

962
01:16:37,649 --> 01:16:39,229
they're great functionality-wise

963
01:16:39,229 --> 01:16:40,189
and it's amazing that people

964
01:16:40,189 --> 01:16:41,309
are just churning them out

965
01:16:41,309 --> 01:16:44,009
with a couple of hours of work.

966
01:16:44,629 --> 01:16:46,109
But they all look the same

967
01:16:46,109 --> 01:16:49,689
because it's the same front-end framework that they're using.

968
01:16:50,049 --> 01:16:52,629
So I think a real game changer is going to be

969
01:16:52,629 --> 01:16:55,549
vibe framing or wireframing.

970
01:16:56,089 --> 01:16:57,549
You're spinning up Figma screens

971
01:16:57,549 --> 01:17:02,009
and then bolting those on seamlessly into your app.

972
01:17:02,009 --> 01:17:04,989
Do you see that happening anytime soon?

973
01:17:05,949 --> 01:17:09,909
So yes and no, and it is happening.

974
01:17:09,909 --> 01:17:18,229
The challenge is with Figma, it's way too ambiguous on how you build these web components.

975
01:17:18,649 --> 01:17:29,089
So don't think of it as text and form fields, but like collections of text and form fields that make web components.

976
01:17:29,089 --> 01:17:38,909
and until we kind of figure out that skinning kind of you know win amp kind of experience

977
01:17:38,909 --> 01:17:44,369
it's really hard to get away from everything looking the same that said if you do your

978
01:17:44,369 --> 01:17:51,429
interfaces in something like the the adobe tools and then take that whole folder and drop it into

979
01:17:51,429 --> 01:17:58,349
your project and then tell it to build screens based on the examples you provided you can get

980
01:17:58,349 --> 01:18:00,949
pretty far down the line in building a unique experience.

981
01:18:04,189 --> 01:18:04,709
Yeah.

982
01:18:06,969 --> 01:18:09,849
Well, I've used Replit in the past,

983
01:18:10,109 --> 01:18:15,289
and I think it uses the same Tailwind and other things for it.

984
01:18:15,469 --> 01:18:17,429
And I gave it URLs to,

985
01:18:17,929 --> 01:18:21,189
and this is before I even understood front-end frameworks

986
01:18:21,189 --> 01:18:22,389
even less than I do today.

987
01:18:22,669 --> 01:18:25,469
I gave it fantastic websites and said,

988
01:18:25,469 --> 01:18:27,189
look at this website,

989
01:18:27,189 --> 01:18:29,769
and if you need to change your framework, change your framework,

990
01:18:29,889 --> 01:18:30,889
but make it look like this.

991
01:18:31,209 --> 01:18:36,429
I ended up with the worst spaghetti imaginable in that scenario.

992
01:18:37,029 --> 01:18:38,269
Well, hopefully that's going to change soon.

993
01:18:39,589 --> 01:18:42,189
Avi, were you asking Replit for the –

994
01:18:42,809 --> 01:18:44,769
Yeah, I wouldn't ask Replit.

995
01:18:46,129 --> 01:18:46,589
Yeah, I know.

996
01:18:46,729 --> 01:18:48,929
I learned that the hard way three or four months ago.

997
01:18:49,069 --> 01:18:54,109
Replit would be better for creating, like implementing, not for designing it.

998
01:18:54,109 --> 01:18:54,729
Come on, Avi.

999
01:18:55,049 --> 01:18:56,109
You're such a nude.

1000
01:18:56,889 --> 01:18:58,349
You've got to spend some time with Ben.

1001
01:18:58,449 --> 01:19:00,589
I'm telling you, he'll show you how to use Replit.

1002
01:19:01,389 --> 01:19:02,009
He's good.

1003
01:19:02,249 --> 01:19:05,149
Stop wasting all your credits on Noobish.

1004
01:19:05,589 --> 01:19:09,609
And, of course, Verge got me on using his promo code for Winsurf,

1005
01:19:09,689 --> 01:19:12,069
so I can pass that to you if you want, Avi.

1006
01:19:12,749 --> 01:19:16,649
In my defense, this was in February of this year.

1007
01:19:16,649 --> 01:19:20,989
Before the term Vibe Coding had even entered the vernacular,

1008
01:19:20,989 --> 01:19:39,049
I was fighting with Replit and watching my $25 a month in credits sort of dissolve in front of my eyes as it was trying to force it to move a box around another box 20 times and failed each time.

1009
01:19:39,389 --> 01:19:40,169
That's five months ago.

1010
01:19:40,269 --> 01:19:41,629
That might as well be two years.

1011
01:19:41,889 --> 01:19:42,509
Five months.

1012
01:19:42,869 --> 01:19:43,749
February to June.

1013
01:19:44,269 --> 01:19:44,749
Come back.

1014
01:19:44,889 --> 01:19:45,969
Come back to the vibe.

1015
01:19:45,969 --> 01:19:54,149
the the the term vibe coding wasn't in in common parlance at that time i think it came out

1016
01:19:54,149 --> 01:20:00,429
people started using it in march yeah um but yeah but replit was good then it was good for other

1017
01:20:00,429 --> 01:20:06,349
stuff to your point ben uh all right so benjamin let's talk about legacy locker the next steps

1018
01:20:06,349 --> 01:20:10,089
where do you see this headed in the next year legacy locker and wellness ally

1019
01:20:10,089 --> 01:20:32,530
Yeah I think we more focused on Wellness Ally making sure that we can first you know get the users and some good feedback based off the holistic entry Then once we do that we want to start pulling in some additional profile information

1020
01:20:33,310 --> 01:20:39,250
And that profile information would be kind of structured out into specific events.

1021
01:20:39,250 --> 01:20:46,530
and those events would start growing the ecosystem for the user to start possibly getting their

1022
01:20:46,530 --> 01:20:53,010
compatibility with their EHR and EMR and then feeding that into that legacy locker. But before

1023
01:20:53,010 --> 01:21:00,470
we get down that scary road, we want to make sure that we do it the holistic way and really focus on

1024
01:21:00,470 --> 01:21:08,230
just, you know, the journal side, the medication side and the mindfulness tools. So I'd say,

1025
01:21:08,230 --> 01:21:15,250
you know, in two to three months, Verge, correct me if I'm wrong, we hope to have the app released.

1026
01:21:15,510 --> 01:21:21,850
We definitely want to get it to iOS and Android. So we've had to redesign some things since the

1027
01:21:21,850 --> 01:21:30,130
challenge to fit those needs. But we know we can get there. Then once we're in that safe space of

1028
01:21:30,130 --> 01:21:37,150
we got users using it, I'm going to do what I need to do. And that's live my life. And what I

1029
01:21:37,150 --> 01:21:42,210
mean by that is my whole life has been an implementation. So I think I'm going to be a

1030
01:21:42,210 --> 01:21:48,010
really good use case for this. So I'm going to make sure that the legacy locker is set up correctly

1031
01:21:48,010 --> 01:21:54,190
and I'm going to start testing it on my behalf and working with the care that I receive. So

1032
01:21:54,190 --> 01:22:00,690
whether that's in network or out of network and just trying to find that cohesive collaboration

1033
01:22:00,690 --> 01:22:05,310
and figuring out the best path to funnel that information in.

1034
01:22:05,750 --> 01:22:09,450
So I think we'll have better updates for Legacy Locker

1035
01:22:09,450 --> 01:22:12,290
come middle of next year.

1036
01:22:12,810 --> 01:22:16,570
But like Virg said, six months was two years,

1037
01:22:16,570 --> 01:22:18,190
a couple of years ago.

1038
01:22:18,410 --> 01:22:20,630
And with the way information's moving fast,

1039
01:22:20,810 --> 01:22:23,610
maybe we'll have a better update by the end of the year.

1040
01:22:24,730 --> 01:22:26,310
Oh, way before that, way before that.

1041
01:22:27,790 --> 01:22:28,030
Yeah.

1042
01:22:28,170 --> 01:22:30,410
Well, don't overshare, Virg.

1043
01:22:30,690 --> 01:22:39,270
if six months was two years ago the end of the year is five years from now right is the math right

1044
01:22:39,270 --> 01:22:48,010
so tomorrow tomorrow yeah yeah tomorrow it's all gonna launch and go live yeah no it's it's it's

1045
01:22:48,010 --> 01:22:53,230
crazy like when so even just from when we started the hackathon to the end of the hackathon

1046
01:22:53,230 --> 01:23:00,410
the first four weeks we were burning through code and burning through credits to get basic

1047
01:23:00,410 --> 01:23:06,450
functionality. And I got to admit, I'm not the best vibe coder, but I will stay up late to fix

1048
01:23:06,450 --> 01:23:15,650
that problem. And about a week before the actual submission date, I did something that just really

1049
01:23:15,650 --> 01:23:20,830
butchered the code, like unrecoverable, like rolling back, couldn't figure out what was going

1050
01:23:20,830 --> 01:23:29,410
on. Rewrote the whole interface basically in a week. Sure, it was like a fever dream of early

1051
01:23:29,410 --> 01:23:35,270
mornings and late nights to make it happen but i couldn't believe how dramatically different

1052
01:23:35,270 --> 01:23:41,650
the ai was in understanding all the doc because we had all the collaboration documents we had all the

1053
01:23:41,650 --> 01:23:49,650
the um product the you know the pdds and the and the uids like the user you know the user

1054
01:23:49,650 --> 01:23:55,550
interface documents and it just cranked out all the code and and it worked and it worked pretty

1055
01:23:55,550 --> 01:24:02,010
much right off the bat. So, you know, Ben and I, you know, we're talking about two months, three

1056
01:24:02,010 --> 01:24:07,090
months, end of the summer. And who knows, we could, you know, like pop up the IDE. And next thing you

1057
01:24:07,090 --> 01:24:12,250
know, we've got everything saving and working properly on mobile. And it's easy to put it into

1058
01:24:12,250 --> 01:24:17,770
an iOS and an Android app with that Amber. I want to, we want to get that Amber login. So you don't

1059
01:24:17,770 --> 01:24:19,230
actually have to put in your NSEC.

1060
01:24:20,210 --> 01:24:23,590
That could happen in a week or two

1061
01:24:23,590 --> 01:24:27,690
if the AI kind of gives us

1062
01:24:27,690 --> 01:24:30,630
that little bit of a push forward.

1063
01:24:31,610 --> 01:24:31,730
Yeah.

1064
01:24:32,270 --> 01:24:34,450
It is remarkable how much better they've gotten.

1065
01:24:34,610 --> 01:24:35,530
I mean, Claude 4.

1066
01:24:35,910 --> 01:24:38,630
So when I was working on Replit in February,

1067
01:24:38,890 --> 01:24:40,450
I was using Claude 3.5.

1068
01:24:40,450 --> 01:24:42,790
And now there was 3.7 in between,

1069
01:24:42,910 --> 01:24:44,250
and now there's Claude 4.

1070
01:24:44,630 --> 01:24:47,450
I mean, 4 is just like heads and shoulders.

1071
01:24:47,770 --> 01:24:50,310
It's insane for coding, especially.

1072
01:24:50,670 --> 01:24:56,030
And then O3, the full O3 from OpenAI is just probably...

1073
01:24:56,030 --> 01:24:57,990
I wouldn't necessarily use it for coding.

1074
01:24:58,390 --> 01:24:59,690
I think Claude's better for that.

1075
01:25:00,050 --> 01:25:00,510
Agreed.

1076
01:25:01,230 --> 01:25:04,670
It's like an otherworldly intelligence.

1077
01:25:05,850 --> 01:25:06,030
Yeah.

1078
01:25:07,230 --> 01:25:10,490
Claude10 is going to be amazing, but humans won't be around for it.

1079
01:25:10,490 --> 01:25:19,710
well if you do the right amount of dmt you could actually hang out with claude 10 today just use my

1080
01:25:19,710 --> 01:25:25,330
promo code yeah yeah the show title is gonna be windsurfing with verge

1081
01:25:25,330 --> 01:25:38,270
that's a good one uh what anything else you got you guys want to plug

1082
01:25:38,270 --> 01:25:42,990
Verge, Benjamin, we've talked about Legacy Locker and Wellness Ally.

1083
01:25:43,350 --> 01:25:43,930
Anything else?

1084
01:25:44,850 --> 01:25:49,870
If I could plug one thing, anyone who's going to Bitcoin Prague,

1085
01:25:50,330 --> 01:25:54,930
if you haven't downloaded the Sound HSA Step Tracker app,

1086
01:25:55,030 --> 01:26:00,630
we have this like a step tracker, hit soundhsa.com, grab the app.

1087
01:26:01,030 --> 01:26:04,990
As you walk around the conference, you could get sats for your steps.

1088
01:26:04,990 --> 01:26:15,530
We're going to do a challenge there, and we're hoping to get a couple people who might have an HSA that they're thinking about rolling over and have a product launch for that as well.

1089
01:26:15,750 --> 01:26:24,210
So if I can plug my non-fiat job, that's the project that I'm always happy to plug.

1090
01:26:24,490 --> 01:26:28,170
Was that active during the Bitcoin conference?

1091
01:26:28,690 --> 01:26:29,490
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1092
01:26:29,570 --> 01:26:32,430
We gave away 31,000 sats.

1093
01:26:32,430 --> 01:26:34,490
It was 30,000 steps.

1094
01:26:34,490 --> 01:26:35,750
30,000 steps.

1095
01:26:35,750 --> 01:26:36,170
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1096
01:26:36,230 --> 01:26:39,250
30,000 steps, 21,000 sats.

1097
01:26:39,470 --> 01:26:40,490
It was a lot of fun.

1098
01:26:40,870 --> 01:26:41,770
There was a hike and everything.

1099
01:26:42,330 --> 01:26:45,570
Sam with Lightning Store and Wave Lake did that in one day.

1100
01:26:46,230 --> 01:26:49,150
Just to let you know, he's a walking machine.

1101
01:26:49,490 --> 01:26:52,590
I don't know what he does, but yeah, he's a step.

1102
01:26:52,670 --> 01:26:53,770
He's the steppinator.

1103
01:26:54,330 --> 01:26:55,310
Does he have short legs?

1104
01:26:55,390 --> 01:26:56,630
Is he using lots of steps?

1105
01:26:57,050 --> 01:26:58,830
Or is he like, how does that work?

1106
01:26:59,130 --> 01:27:00,510
I think it's Cocomelon.

1107
01:27:00,510 --> 01:27:04,810
He just watches it while he walks, and he's just so full into the dopamine.

1108
01:27:05,570 --> 01:27:06,790
It's just full on.

1109
01:27:07,530 --> 01:27:07,710
Nice.

1110
01:27:08,410 --> 01:27:13,510
Sam's getting roasted throughout the show in a plebshain radio first.

1111
01:27:14,830 --> 01:27:21,470
Virg, I will be in Prague next week, and I will make sure I download Sound HSA.

1112
01:27:22,190 --> 01:27:27,410
And folks, since Virg mentioned Prague, if you are going to be there and you haven't bought your tickets yet,

1113
01:27:27,410 --> 01:27:40,250
You can earn 10% off if you're paying in dirty fiat by using the discount code NOSTR, N-O-S-T-R, or 15% off if you are paying in SATs.

1114
01:27:40,870 --> 01:27:44,970
That is discount code N-O-S-T-R, not discount code Verge.

1115
01:27:45,190 --> 01:27:46,030
Don't use that one.

1116
01:27:46,530 --> 01:27:47,190
No, just for Wednesday.

1117
01:27:47,190 --> 01:27:53,470
I love how other podcasts have, like, segments where it just all of a sudden stops and all of a sudden you're in a promo.

1118
01:27:54,170 --> 01:27:56,850
You know, ours are just sprinkled in the whole time, you know.

1119
01:27:57,410 --> 01:28:00,330
Hey, you know, this is a community of love.

1120
01:28:00,470 --> 01:28:01,350
We all love each other.

1121
01:28:01,450 --> 01:28:03,130
We all want to see each other at the finish line.

1122
01:28:03,230 --> 01:28:03,850
So why not?

1123
01:28:04,650 --> 01:28:07,210
And we want to see each other not pay the full price.

1124
01:28:07,370 --> 01:28:07,810
That's it.

1125
01:28:08,550 --> 01:28:08,930
Yes.

1126
01:28:10,470 --> 01:28:11,370
That is it.

1127
01:28:11,870 --> 01:28:12,270
Excellent.

1128
01:28:12,530 --> 01:28:12,670
Yeah.

1129
01:28:12,770 --> 01:28:13,870
So that's great, Vuj.

1130
01:28:14,130 --> 01:28:16,330
Benjamin, anything else you'd like to plug?

1131
01:28:18,350 --> 01:28:18,750
Yeah.

1132
01:28:18,930 --> 01:28:24,990
What I'd recommend is if there's any listeners out there interested, please go to wellnessally.me.

1133
01:28:25,630 --> 01:28:26,970
Provide us some feedback.

1134
01:28:27,410 --> 01:28:29,610
We have a form there.

1135
01:28:30,170 --> 01:28:33,070
Also check out shs101.com.

1136
01:28:33,290 --> 01:28:35,450
It's the framework for what we're building into.

1137
01:28:37,390 --> 01:28:41,850
Website is megistus.xyz or on Noster.

1138
01:28:42,310 --> 01:28:43,810
I go by megistus.

1139
01:28:44,350 --> 01:28:47,350
Would love to hear feedback, thoughts, concerns.

1140
01:28:48,110 --> 01:28:51,090
What me and Verge are trying to work on can be scary,

1141
01:28:51,490 --> 01:28:54,650
especially when Noster has been introduced as notes.

1142
01:28:54,650 --> 01:29:00,290
but what I'd recommend everyone to do is start thinking about that other stuff.

1143
01:29:01,350 --> 01:29:07,530
To the message for maybe the builders, developers, or creators in this space right now,

1144
01:29:08,390 --> 01:29:11,690
I just will say a quote from Terrence McKenna.

1145
01:29:12,670 --> 01:29:15,630
You're an explorer. You represent our species.

1146
01:29:16,370 --> 01:29:19,430
And the greatest good you can do is bring back a new idea

1147
01:29:19,430 --> 01:29:24,810
because our world is endangered by the absence of good ideas.

1148
01:29:25,310 --> 01:29:29,510
Our world is in crisis because of the absence of consciousness.

1149
01:29:30,030 --> 01:29:31,930
Really appreciate y'all's time today,

1150
01:29:32,070 --> 01:29:33,750
and thank y'all for letting us join this call.

1151
01:29:35,590 --> 01:29:37,230
Awesome. Well, that is beautiful.

1152
01:29:37,350 --> 01:29:40,250
It's a beautiful quote, Benjamin, and thank you for sharing that wisdom.

1153
01:29:41,010 --> 01:29:46,550
We will get the links in the show notes for the show,

1154
01:29:46,550 --> 01:29:49,670
so our listeners can go to those websites.

1155
01:29:50,310 --> 01:29:51,450
QW, anything from you?

1156
01:29:53,570 --> 01:29:55,670
I love that quote, by the way.

1157
01:29:56,630 --> 01:29:59,070
Yeah, it reminds me of nothing else in the world.

1158
01:29:59,270 --> 01:30:03,830
Not all the armies is so powerful as an idea whose time has come, Victor Hugo.

1159
01:30:04,350 --> 01:30:06,010
But no, nothing else.

1160
01:30:07,010 --> 01:30:10,990
I will say, if you're listening now, I hope you're listening on Fountain.

1161
01:30:10,990 --> 01:30:18,950
if you want to support us you know we greatly appreciate it we started something new with the

1162
01:30:18,950 --> 01:30:25,810
premium hit the hit the subscribe if you want to try it out we're working on extra content which

1163
01:30:25,810 --> 01:30:33,110
is kind of fun for us it's a it's a new idea that actually spawns more ideas so we can branch off

1164
01:30:33,110 --> 01:30:40,570
as an individuals whether it's avi or myself so it's something where we are exploring and

1165
01:30:40,570 --> 01:30:42,750
we're having fun doing it.

1166
01:30:43,070 --> 01:30:44,510
So that's it.

1167
01:30:45,770 --> 01:30:46,730
I guess

1168
01:30:46,730 --> 01:30:48,910
signing off, Avi, unless you

1169
01:30:48,910 --> 01:30:49,610
have something else?

1170
01:30:50,690 --> 01:30:52,630
No. Thank you, Virg.

1171
01:30:52,670 --> 01:30:54,870
Thank you, Benjamin. Thank you

1172
01:30:54,870 --> 01:30:56,730
to our listeners on Fountain

1173
01:30:56,730 --> 01:30:58,730
and to our live listeners

1174
01:30:58,730 --> 01:31:00,370
on Zap.Stream,

1175
01:31:01,390 --> 01:31:02,610
Amethyst, and

1176
01:31:02,610 --> 01:31:03,230
Nostor.

1177
01:31:05,830 --> 01:31:07,130
Thank you very much.

1178
01:31:07,610 --> 01:31:08,990
And we will see you next

1179
01:31:08,990 --> 01:31:09,570
week, Avi.

1180
01:31:10,570 --> 01:31:13,250
I will, by the way, I will not be there next week.

1181
01:31:13,250 --> 01:31:14,690
As I mentioned, I will be in Prague.

1182
01:31:14,990 --> 01:31:16,210
So QW, you're going solo.

1183
01:31:16,970 --> 01:31:17,570
I am.

1184
01:31:17,670 --> 01:31:20,510
And we have a pretty good show, community building show.

1185
01:31:20,670 --> 01:31:22,970
As you know, I love and I'm passionate about.

1186
01:31:23,570 --> 01:31:25,250
We're going full solo minors.

1187
01:31:25,410 --> 01:31:28,090
So we'll see you next week and hope you tune in.

1188
01:31:29,150 --> 01:31:29,590
Goodbye.