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Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses

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on the intersection of NOSTER and Bitcoin protocols.

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Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current

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thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,

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doers, and plebs.

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All right, we are live.

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Welcome, gentle pioneers, to the lightning-laced airwaves.

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Today is Thursday, the 30th of October, and it is 12.59pm on the East Coast of the United States.

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At the time of recording, this is episode 135 of Pleb Chain Radio, and we have a fun one ahead of you.

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Shadrach, cypherpunk, Nostrich, podcast listening legend, among several other things, joins us to

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talk about all of that. And a reminder, folks, if you are listening to this show on Apple or Spotify,

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first of all, thank you for listening. But I would urge you to hit pause and switch over to

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the Fountain Podcasting app where you can earn some sats and support the value for value revolution

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while you listen.

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And while you're there,

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we would appreciate it

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if you hit that subscribe button.

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That will allow you to access

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exclusive bonus content

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and your subscription helps keep our mics warm

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and this show ad-free.

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This show is streamed live on Zap.Stream

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and any other Nosteclient

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that supports streaming such as

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Amethyst, Nosteur, Fountain and Primal.

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And another reminder, folks, the Finding Home episode that I shot in Prague is now available on IndieHub.

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And you, dear listener, can use the code PioneerChain21.

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That's one continuous word with the numbers 21 after Pioneer Chain for 21% of the streaming cost.

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And QW, you've been paying attention to Bitcoin and Noster culture in the last week.

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What have you witnessed?

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I'd like to first ask, because last time we spoke, last show, it was the pregame.

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I mean, it was the day before Nosterville 3.0.

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Any feedback, any enlightening moments, any grand themes that were carried throughout that day?

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Well, there were grand conversations.

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it was a fantastic event

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from my perspective, QW

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there were about

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30 odd people

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we had about

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4 or 5 talks

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and then we rolled into

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the Valley for Value music event

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so

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all in all

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a super high signal event

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I got to meet Shadrach, our guest

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for the first time there, it was a great meeting

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I got to meet our friend

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Richard Greaser from The Bugle

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who happened to be there and as I mentioned

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the last time, QW, he looks and

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sounds exactly as he does

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online.

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Joe Martin? Did you meet

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Joe Martin? I met Joe

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again, yes. I met him a few times.

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It was great to see Joe

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again. Very, very busy man

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recording his new album, as is

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Ainsley, our guest, last week.

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Do you

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think he traveled the furthest

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to be there in Nashville?

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Well, he's in the States

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recording his album.

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Yeah, so, but, yeah, obviously.

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But anybody that surprised you

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that showed up?

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No, I think it was all expected people,

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but I got to meet a lot of new folks

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who I hadn't met before,

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only interacted with on Nostra,

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so that was great.

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It's great to put a voice to a nymph

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right a face to a voice and a voice to a name yes did anybody say oh i now that after they meet you

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and they see your face you're like well and i now i get why he does radio

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they did say uh well qw is a lot uglier than i thought

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ah that's that's the way it should be uh so culture corner i mean obviously uh nostraville

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3.0 just finished up. The experience in real time, meeting people that are into the

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decentralized internet of today that is Nostra, that's beautiful. Next up is BitFest. So anybody

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in the Manchester area, that'd be across the pond for us. November 21st through the 23rd,

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Uh, there's going to be Nostra Shire, uh, there.

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So, um, that's, uh, that's the next big event.

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And that would be Nostra adjacent, uh, and of course, Bitcoin adjacent.

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So it always seems to work out that, uh, you can do, uh, two birds with one stone.

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Uh, so super, uh, I mean, I, I, I, I just don't fly across the pond.

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Uh, and one day I will, I'd love to go see Prague.

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I'd love to go to, uh, Madeira.

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There's a few that I just, I want to see the, I want to go to Czech Republic.

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And obviously that'd be Prague, right, Avi?

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But that the cypherpunk citadel there really, really meets my fancy.

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But I do have an announcement, Avi, something we've talked about and something that's moving in my life.

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My time in mental capital is allocated to four channels in my life.

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Number one, priority one would be fatherhood.

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Priority two would be husband.

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Priority three is family.

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But along with family is my family business.

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So that would be my third priority.

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Fourth is purpose.

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So purpose would be my creative mindset, my purpose to bring freedom to my son in the future.

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Purpose would be Noster.

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Purpose would be Bitcoin.

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So at the current time, my family business, as many may know, I've mentioned it here, it's going into the fourth generation of family and the torch is getting passed.

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It does in due time. So that time has come. This privilege and responsibility will require me to sacrifice time and maybe take away from some of my, maybe my fourth priority, that purpose.

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So in the near term, currently, we're just talking about the month of November as the dust settles with this transition.

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I'm going to be stepping back from the weekly co-host into a more fluid role as I settle into the new job.

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I want to make it clear, though, I am not leaving.

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I'm just taking time to adjust.

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However, I wanted any of the loyal listeners or anybody in general, Nostriges, my friends, almost family with a lot of you guys and girls.

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But I want you guys to know up front.

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So if I'm not here for two shows, I certainly don't want you to think I'm quitting on the purpose because the purpose is an absolute priority in my life.

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I'm just going to adjust my mental capital and my time to give me a stronger future and a stronger allocation of purpose in the future.

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So that's it.

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You got any questions on that, Avi?

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I'll be watching the clock.

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but it's it's kind of weird because um listening to a club chain radio show that i'm not in um

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normally i'm i'm it's it's it's like you know it's just a state of consciousness we're here

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we're doing it um it's much different when you're um listening to it uh versus actually participating

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in it. This is kind of our baby. It's our, you know, it's our weekly thing we do. I mean,

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we're at a hundred and I don't know, what is this? The one 35th. So it's, it's been a lot of weeks.

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And if you actually stretch that out, you know, my son, he's going on three. He's basically a

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young dictator at this point. He's, he's ripping me apart as far as my time, but it's, it's crazy

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that just a couple months after he was born, we started this.

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So really looking forward to those years, Avi, where maybe he's five

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and he's not beating at my door while I do this,

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and my mind can be 100% dedicated.

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Don't run the clock down too fast, he does.

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Trust me.

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You will miss those years between three and five.

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So just blink and you miss it.

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I mean, I remember my son was at that age, yeah, and he was a handful too.

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And then next thing I know, he's 15.

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So yeah, enjoy it.

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Challenging as it can be at times.

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But I do want to mention, because it's easy to give up on purpose in life when times get tough, things happen.

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You're like, well, I'll just quit this thing.

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And I don't think that's ever the right choice.

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I think purpose is one of those pillars you internalize that make you tick.

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so you know i think we're doing this right i'm i i just i think creativity it's like giving up

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artistic uh art or music or something because responsibility got too hard um i don't think

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it's good in the long run it doesn't make a healthy human uh and i'm looking forward to

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this fluid transition so we'll be good excellent well like i said qw i will be watching the clock

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before we bring our guests on i do have a sermon

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and the sermon is empires run on paperwork and passwords we run on keys proof and a happy grin

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that says let's settle this in sats now bitcoin and nostr aren't just code their posture they tilt

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your spine a few degrees towards sovereignty and suddenly the world stops feeling like a

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stops feeling like a mall and starts feeling like a bazaar again now picture this you want to move

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a package without donating your home address to five databases and a marketing intern named kyle

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Instead, you spin up an onion-routed courier circuit.

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A buyer posts a need on Nasta signed with their pub key.

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Couriers within your web of trust,

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a reputation earned through simple proofs of past deliveries, respond.

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The package hops from hand to hand like a whispered secret at a village feast.

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Each hop knows only the next hop, never the final door.

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When it lands, the buyer releases a lightning payment, sats arc across the mesh, and everyone goes home a little richer and a lot less surveilled.

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Not because we begged permission but because we used primitives that do not ask Or take art for that matter the original peer medium

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A painter lifts color into form, a buyer feels seen,

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and somewhere along the line, a gallery, a processor, and a platform develop very expensive opinions.

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now the artists post post the piece on nostor with a high resolution proof of some sort and

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a signed note that binds image to identity a collector replies they settle price and sats

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maybe stream a small deposit as the frame is built the delivery happens through our

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onion routed corridor and provenance is anchored by signatures and time no escrow guards no charge

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back ghosts, no account under review limbo, just two humans transacting with dignity while the

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protocol holds the trust that used to leak into middlemen. Third parties were training wheels for

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an age that forgot how to balance. We outsource trust because we outsource memory and courage.

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Bitcoin brings back finality, which brings back honesty. Noster brings back voice,

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which brings back reputation. Together they make a street again. Streets have witnesses,

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not moderators. They have neighbors, not users. They have favors that become friendships and

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receipts that are just public keys with the story. Will it be messy sometimes? Of course.

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So is bread. And yet civilizations form around ovens. We don't fix the world with a dashboard

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and a terms of service update.

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We'll fix it with small,

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unfancy transactions

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that remind us who we are.

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A handoff, a handshake,

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a signature,

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a payment that clears in a heartbeat.

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Meet space commerce

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where privacy is the default

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and skin in the game is the rule.

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Sovereignty is not a slogan.

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It's a habit.

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And today, we practice.

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And with that,

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So, Kedabu, I think it's time to bring on our guest, Shadrach. Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, good sir.

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Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a true honor.

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No, it's an honor for us. And I think our audience will realize that as well as your story progresses, Shadrach.

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So, for folks who might be unfamiliar with you, tell us a little bit about yourself.

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currently unwritten story

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I grew up in Austin, Texas

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and yeah, I've been a Bitcoiner for a long time

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prior to that in a former life in my youth

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I was anxious to get on the college

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Vax VMS, get my first email in the early 90s

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get on the mailing lists

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life

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happened.

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I appreciate your

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honesty and integrity,

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QW, talking about your transition.

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I had

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my children and kind of

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definitely lost my purpose, so

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this is an amazing

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time to be bringing

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up kids. I think

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our purpose is much clearer than it's

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ever been, and

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there's a lot more of us than there were

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in the early 90s.

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And yeah, so fast forward, kids get old, I rediscover myself, I discover my goals of creating communities and societies that live without coercion.

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And I start putting that into practice in my deeds and my words.

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Love it.

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And when, well, actually, I was about to ask you about Nostra, but your bio on Nostra says you're a Bitcoin bus driver.

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Can I ask what drew you to Bitcoin?

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You know, just what is it about that really stuck?

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I'd followed the different money movements, Liberty Dollar.

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I'd pretty much given up on it.

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And then I should have found Bitcoin earlier, but I found Monero first.

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And that was kind of on an ethical level.

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And I mean, I believed in the idea of private peer-to-peer money.

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And then I think it was really reading the Bitcoin standard was just an amazing,

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like massive light bulb moment about, I mean, you can only have digital security or digital

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scarcity once. So that kind of showed me that anything that wasn't Bitcoin may be a tool,

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but overall it's going to be taking a lot of capital and intelligent people away from

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the core mission, which is around Bitcoin, but it's really what we do peer to peer.

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It's how we peer-to-peer everything, shake hands, make verbal agreements, kind of the old common law stuff.

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Money is a great tool, but how we deal with each other is what really matters.

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It's almost like the white paper had been titled Peer-to-Peer, electronic cash system.

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Amazing, isn't it?

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I think that's a very important, I mean, that's honestly what you just said there.

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The peer-to-peer aspect of it is honestly, I think, one of the more magical moments when you send your first transaction to your friend or you buy your first leg of lamb from Rev HODL.

233
00:18:08,832 --> 00:18:23,672
You know, all those little moments, it really, and I encourage anybody that thinks it's NGU and digital gold, go try and get activated locally and feel that.

234
00:18:23,812 --> 00:18:27,312
Feel what Bitcoin can do on the peer-to-peer level.

235
00:18:27,532 --> 00:18:29,192
So I just wanted to add context.

236
00:18:29,372 --> 00:18:31,212
I really appreciate that, man.

237
00:18:31,492 --> 00:18:36,132
So Bitcoin bus driver, tell us all about it.

238
00:18:36,972 --> 00:18:38,332
I love driving.

239
00:18:38,832 --> 00:18:44,272
I've been driving around the country, going to different meetups, visiting different citadels.

240
00:18:45,672 --> 00:18:52,452
And it really kind of struck me that it's a lot more fun if you pick somebody up along the way.

241
00:18:52,992 --> 00:18:55,092
And Orange Pill App has been great.

242
00:18:55,652 --> 00:18:57,352
We reach out to each other there.

243
00:18:57,612 --> 00:18:58,992
You know, it's a proximity thing.

244
00:18:59,192 --> 00:19:02,292
So I can, hey, I'm in Scottsdale, Arizona.

245
00:19:02,712 --> 00:19:04,852
You know, anybody need to go to Vegas?

246
00:19:04,852 --> 00:19:15,572
And so I'd been doing that and as well as moving different things around for other peer-to-peer sellers.

247
00:19:17,092 --> 00:19:28,812
And it kind of evolved into, well, we should really have a system where rather than single-purpose trips, single-purpose packages,

248
00:19:28,812 --> 00:19:33,012
we start really using what we have, which is communication.

249
00:19:33,012 --> 00:19:40,352
We have incentives to make this even more fun, more profitable.

250
00:19:41,472 --> 00:19:54,992
And ultimately, what it really kind of is stuck with is every time we have to make a conversion from Bitcoin into fiat, we are feeding that system.

251
00:19:54,992 --> 00:20:03,612
So if we're using UPS to do all of our deliveries, we're converting Bitcoin into fiat and giving it to UPS.

252
00:20:04,632 --> 00:20:14,812
And that's become harder and harder for me to handle, I guess.

253
00:20:14,812 --> 00:20:20,632
I recently was let go of my fiat job

254
00:20:20,632 --> 00:20:24,212
so it's become all the more apparent

255
00:20:24,212 --> 00:20:27,772
that I don't want to spend my Bitcoin

256
00:20:27,772 --> 00:20:32,332
on what we call the first realm

257
00:20:32,332 --> 00:20:35,252
I want to keep it

258
00:20:35,252 --> 00:20:38,812
if I can't use it in my circular economy

259
00:20:38,812 --> 00:20:41,052
I need to grow my circular economy

260
00:20:41,052 --> 00:20:44,712
to where I can use it to buy handmade wool clothes

261
00:20:44,712 --> 00:20:47,072
where I can get all of my groceries.

262
00:20:49,332 --> 00:20:51,272
I love RevHodl.

263
00:20:52,212 --> 00:20:55,852
My lamb guy near me, we opened a lightning channel.

264
00:20:56,032 --> 00:20:57,752
So I have a massive lightning channel.

265
00:20:57,892 --> 00:20:59,372
So every time I buy from him,

266
00:20:59,532 --> 00:21:01,592
it literally just goes between our channel.

267
00:21:02,572 --> 00:21:05,072
There's just so much we can do with Bitcoin.

268
00:21:05,392 --> 00:21:07,572
And then Noster just...

269
00:21:07,572 --> 00:21:10,132
Yeah, I don't know if you want to ask me any questions,

270
00:21:10,132 --> 00:21:15,372
but I was on Noster from pretty early,

271
00:21:15,952 --> 00:21:21,972
and I could go on and on about how that reminds me of early days of IRC.

272
00:21:22,632 --> 00:21:22,952
Do so.

273
00:21:23,452 --> 00:21:24,272
You create a...

274
00:21:24,272 --> 00:21:25,272
You'll go on and on.

275
00:21:25,492 --> 00:21:25,912
Oh, okay.

276
00:21:27,252 --> 00:21:31,592
Yeah, in the early 90s, we had dial-up modems.

277
00:21:31,852 --> 00:21:34,452
We had a couple cable modems started coming out in Austin,

278
00:21:34,452 --> 00:21:40,492
and we were setting up IRC nodes on everyone's server in their house.

279
00:21:40,672 --> 00:21:45,312
And then we had a VPN that went between all of our houses.

280
00:21:45,552 --> 00:21:47,652
So each of us had our own subnet,

281
00:21:47,952 --> 00:21:51,712
and we would have our IRC client running on our computer,

282
00:21:52,072 --> 00:21:54,632
and it would be broadcasting to our local node.

283
00:21:54,632 --> 00:21:58,892
Those went to all the other nodes at all of our different houses,

284
00:21:59,412 --> 00:22:02,192
and it felt amazing.

285
00:22:02,192 --> 00:22:07,332
It felt like the freest, it felt like pure signal.

286
00:22:09,032 --> 00:22:19,232
And as soon as I saw the model of Noster and then throwing in PGP, which again, we used PGP from the 90s, but it was always a problem.

287
00:22:19,832 --> 00:22:27,332
And, you know, everyone knew when to use it when they really needed to use it, but it wasn't integrated into anything.

288
00:22:27,332 --> 00:22:37,072
So seeing those two pieces come together in Noster, I've never been more excited in my life for the future.

289
00:22:38,992 --> 00:22:41,792
Now, you'd mentioned friend of the show, Rev Hoddle.

290
00:22:42,512 --> 00:22:45,072
Real quick, Avi, just a quick.

291
00:22:45,892 --> 00:22:50,492
Why did you choose Scottsdale, Arizona when you said you were bus driving?

292
00:22:51,232 --> 00:22:53,592
Pick someone up in Scottsdale and go to Vegas.

293
00:22:53,592 --> 00:23:03,132
I have family there and we actually have a bar there, my family.

294
00:23:04,832 --> 00:23:11,192
And I want to turn it into a Bitcoin bar and kind of a hub.

295
00:23:12,232 --> 00:23:18,432
Weird things also, I noticed people at the bar are these transportation brokers

296
00:23:18,432 --> 00:23:34,044
and they literally sit at the bar and drink and make money because they get something crazy like 40 of every delivery by just being the broker So some kind of significance in Scottsdale

297
00:23:34,364 --> 00:23:38,124
Interesting. Yeah, I'm in Phoenix, so let me know where I can help at any time.

298
00:23:38,444 --> 00:23:38,924
Sure, sure.

299
00:23:39,104 --> 00:23:43,904
I thought maybe you were lighting a candle to Hal Finney at his cryogenic lab there.

300
00:23:44,804 --> 00:23:46,524
Ah, nice, nice.

301
00:23:46,524 --> 00:23:49,184
You could join his

302
00:23:49,184 --> 00:23:51,624
Courier Network, which we'll talk about

303
00:23:51,624 --> 00:23:52,984
in a second. Absolutely.

304
00:23:55,584 --> 00:23:56,824
My new purpose.

305
00:23:58,804 --> 00:24:00,464
So carry on, I'll be sorry.

306
00:24:01,304 --> 00:24:03,384
You'd mentioned Shadrach

307
00:24:03,384 --> 00:24:05,404
Rev Hoddle, who's been on the show

308
00:24:05,404 --> 00:24:07,084
was it Naki W three times?

309
00:24:07,664 --> 00:24:09,324
Definitely two, maybe

310
00:24:09,324 --> 00:24:11,224
three times. And always

311
00:24:11,224 --> 00:24:12,604
fantastic conversations with him.

312
00:24:13,204 --> 00:24:15,324
He's a moving target, right? He's always up to

313
00:24:15,324 --> 00:24:26,124
something. It's like a new show every time. Yeah, for sure. So he has this Mesh Tadel and presumably

314
00:24:26,124 --> 00:24:32,444
you're part of that, correct? That network. Okay. So for, no, for, unfortunately the last time he

315
00:24:32,444 --> 00:24:38,364
was here, I didn't say, can you define or explain Mesh Tadel for folks who might be unfamiliar?

316
00:24:38,524 --> 00:24:43,944
So I'm going to pin you down, Shadrach, since you're here as Rev Hoddle's proxy, explain to

317
00:24:43,944 --> 00:24:48,164
folks who are listeners who are unfamiliar. What is the MeshTadel?

318
00:24:51,384 --> 00:25:04,084
It originated from Citadel and Mesh networks. So it's the idea that we can create a Mesh

319
00:25:04,084 --> 00:25:13,844
network of homesteaders, small Citadels, large Citadels. We can create communication channels

320
00:25:13,844 --> 00:25:25,864
between them. We can create monetization between them and grow the circular economy on a physical

321
00:25:25,864 --> 00:25:31,944
and a digital level, with the ultimate goal being to have a backup to the internet.

322
00:25:34,044 --> 00:25:41,844
But it's more than just a digital mesh, right? It's not mesh in the literal sense of what,

323
00:25:41,844 --> 00:25:46,884
well, at least what it's literally evolved to mean in the last 10 or 20 years,

324
00:25:47,864 --> 00:25:51,104
the mesh netter, which is in some sense a technology specification.

325
00:25:51,504 --> 00:25:54,544
This sounds something more fundamental, right?

326
00:25:54,664 --> 00:25:57,044
It's a philosophical mesh of sorts, isn't it?

327
00:25:57,444 --> 00:25:58,784
It is, yeah, yeah.

328
00:25:58,784 --> 00:26:04,004
But it has its physical layer in that, I mean, we do meet each other.

329
00:26:04,464 --> 00:26:08,124
We do move around among each other.

330
00:26:08,124 --> 00:26:18,844
and again ultimately we would like to have our own digital sovereignty on the transport layer

331
00:26:18,844 --> 00:26:25,424
both physical and digital yeah yeah you're you're teasing the best part of the show

332
00:26:25,424 --> 00:26:33,164
but let's not because i do want to talk about that meat space transport layer is just such a critical

333
00:26:33,164 --> 00:26:36,024
privacy vulnerability that we face,

334
00:26:36,264 --> 00:26:41,084
but just more broadly on the mesh itself, right?

335
00:26:42,344 --> 00:26:45,844
Do you or anyone in the mesh at all

336
00:26:45,844 --> 00:26:51,024
fear that at some point

337
00:26:51,024 --> 00:26:54,664
the powers that be are going to get uncomfortable

338
00:26:54,664 --> 00:26:56,284
that people are so free?

339
00:26:56,824 --> 00:26:58,244
And what happens in that scenario?

340
00:26:59,544 --> 00:27:01,064
I think to some level,

341
00:27:01,064 --> 00:27:04,304
people expect it.

342
00:27:05,484 --> 00:27:09,704
It's in the literature

343
00:27:09,704 --> 00:27:12,364
that it will happen.

344
00:27:12,764 --> 00:27:16,204
It's about meantime to harassment.

345
00:27:17,184 --> 00:27:21,104
There's a lot we can do to stay safe,

346
00:27:21,404 --> 00:27:24,344
but at some point we have to

347
00:27:24,344 --> 00:27:26,884
live with integrity.

348
00:27:26,884 --> 00:27:31,784
and then see what happens.

349
00:27:32,824 --> 00:27:36,584
We should start getting lawyers on retainer.

350
00:27:36,864 --> 00:27:38,124
But yeah, yeah.

351
00:27:38,984 --> 00:27:39,584
It's expected.

352
00:27:39,584 --> 00:27:43,624
But just for everyone's clarity,

353
00:27:43,844 --> 00:27:44,364
there is nothing,

354
00:27:45,024 --> 00:27:46,864
I mean, this is perfectly legal stuff, right?

355
00:27:46,924 --> 00:27:48,824
These are consenting adults

356
00:27:48,824 --> 00:27:54,284
who are living a voluntarist lifestyle, essentially, correct?

357
00:27:54,504 --> 00:27:55,144
Absolutely.

358
00:27:55,144 --> 00:27:57,484
There is no coercion.

359
00:27:57,844 --> 00:28:00,864
There's no, everything is legal.

360
00:28:01,584 --> 00:28:12,884
And yeah, I don't, we have to stand up for our, you know, our rights.

361
00:28:14,684 --> 00:28:20,964
They're called inalienable, but it's actually alienable.

362
00:28:21,404 --> 00:28:24,904
No one can take a lean on my life.

363
00:28:25,144 --> 00:28:30,544
Is that the actual etymology, Shadrach?

364
00:28:31,904 --> 00:28:36,684
That it's not, the root isn't alien, it's Aileen.

365
00:28:37,844 --> 00:28:38,644
Look it up.

366
00:28:39,404 --> 00:28:48,444
It's something that I've held in my mind since I first heard it, but that was 30 years ago.

367
00:28:49,224 --> 00:28:51,824
It makes more sense to me than alien.

368
00:28:51,824 --> 00:28:58,984
I mean, yeah, you get a lien on your house.

369
00:29:00,104 --> 00:29:01,464
Everyone understands that.

370
00:29:03,284 --> 00:29:03,804
Yeah.

371
00:29:04,104 --> 00:29:05,284
How many you got now?

372
00:29:05,364 --> 00:29:06,284
Like four or five, Avi?

373
00:29:07,444 --> 00:29:08,444
Lien's or houses?

374
00:29:11,284 --> 00:29:15,664
I have a mesh network of liens across all of my houses.

375
00:29:15,664 --> 00:29:16,744
All my houses.

376
00:29:20,424 --> 00:29:20,984
Yeah.

377
00:29:20,984 --> 00:29:24,124
But anything more to add to that?

378
00:29:24,824 --> 00:29:26,824
Or Avi, do you have any more questions on that?

379
00:29:26,824 --> 00:29:45,264
I think, I mean, for me, Mesh-Tadel, just looking at it, I think of, you know, if I didn't know really the details of it, to me, the label just says, I just think of like the Mesh-Tastic networks, the Lo-Fi or LoRa network, and then like a Citadel.

380
00:29:45,264 --> 00:29:55,644
So the distribution of citadels that are commonly bonded through the communication of MeshTastic or LORA.

381
00:29:58,024 --> 00:30:00,104
But, you know, is that correct?

382
00:30:01,304 --> 00:30:05,384
Yeah, I mean, that's definitely part of the mesh part.

383
00:30:06,504 --> 00:30:14,324
But again, there's a digital overlay to the physical side of it.

384
00:30:14,324 --> 00:30:27,884
They both should be meshes. We can't have single points of failure. We need to be able to route around challenges and make sure that people get what they need.

385
00:30:27,884 --> 00:30:35,344
and and and you know that's where things get interesting right we're talking about stuff like

386
00:30:35,344 --> 00:30:43,504
laura and other technologies these are digital uh substrates for connectivity and that's great

387
00:30:43,504 --> 00:30:49,984
like it's an incredibly important but when we're talking about physical outposts right i mean you

388
00:30:49,984 --> 00:30:54,684
might have a homestead where you have lamb maybe 100 miles away or 200 miles away there's there's

389
00:30:54,684 --> 00:30:56,624
someone who has something else,

390
00:30:56,764 --> 00:30:59,124
and there needs to be some sovereign way of,

391
00:31:00,304 --> 00:31:03,744
sovereign and privacy-preserving way of transacting.

392
00:31:04,784 --> 00:31:06,864
And that brings me to the example

393
00:31:06,864 --> 00:31:09,004
that I touched upon in the sermon,

394
00:31:09,004 --> 00:31:15,204
which is this idea of an onion-routed courier service.

395
00:31:15,624 --> 00:31:17,324
And, you know, Shadrach, when you say citadels,

396
00:31:17,464 --> 00:31:18,624
we are essentially talking about

397
00:31:18,624 --> 00:31:20,004
these sovereign physical outposts

398
00:31:20,584 --> 00:31:22,004
that are, you know, separated.

399
00:31:22,784 --> 00:31:24,004
They could be separated by hundreds,

400
00:31:24,004 --> 00:31:25,364
maybe even thousands of miles, right?

401
00:31:25,504 --> 00:31:28,884
But there needs to be a physical layer of connectivity between them

402
00:31:28,884 --> 00:31:33,304
that allows for the physical transport of goods.

403
00:31:33,764 --> 00:31:34,904
Well, goods, not, yeah.

404
00:31:35,364 --> 00:31:36,724
I was about to say goods and services,

405
00:31:36,964 --> 00:31:39,824
but I think it makes more sense in the context of goods.

406
00:31:41,764 --> 00:31:46,524
So I know what the Onion-routed network, sort of like Tor, right?

407
00:31:46,704 --> 00:31:49,664
But in the physical realm,

408
00:31:50,224 --> 00:31:53,924
was perhaps a hypothetical scenario that I laid out.

409
00:31:54,004 --> 00:32:06,664
Well, talk about A to B, right, which is this courier network that's connecting these citadels that it makes up the connective tissue of the meshed inel.

410
00:32:07,844 --> 00:32:09,404
How does that work?

411
00:32:10,404 --> 00:32:14,564
Sure. I think the easiest way to look at it is, I mean, there's meetups in every city.

412
00:32:14,564 --> 00:32:16,883
so if you have

413
00:32:16,883 --> 00:32:19,924
say one or two people

414
00:32:19,924 --> 00:32:20,724
from a meetup

415
00:32:20,724 --> 00:32:21,804
that go to

416
00:32:21,804 --> 00:32:22,404
you know

417
00:32:22,404 --> 00:32:23,404
a neighboring meetup

418
00:32:23,404 --> 00:32:24,383
while they're there

419
00:32:24,383 --> 00:32:25,584
they can pick up

420
00:32:25,584 --> 00:32:27,184
a box of goods

421
00:32:27,184 --> 00:32:28,064
from that meetup

422
00:32:28,064 --> 00:32:29,064
bring it back to theirs

423
00:32:29,064 --> 00:32:29,883
and then

424
00:32:29,883 --> 00:32:31,383
say you've got a

425
00:32:31,383 --> 00:32:32,764
box of tallow soap

426
00:32:32,764 --> 00:32:34,044
at one meetup

427
00:32:34,044 --> 00:32:34,784
you pick it up

428
00:32:34,784 --> 00:32:35,844
you bring it to your meetup

429
00:32:35,844 --> 00:32:36,604
and then the people

430
00:32:36,604 --> 00:32:38,484
that come to your meetup

431
00:32:38,484 --> 00:32:39,324
can get their soap

432
00:32:39,324 --> 00:32:40,044
and take it home

433
00:32:40,044 --> 00:32:41,604
that's the

434
00:32:41,604 --> 00:32:42,644
that's the truly

435
00:32:42,644 --> 00:32:44,304
peer-to-peer side of it

436
00:32:44,304 --> 00:32:51,604
Now, if somebody was not able to make it to the meetup, you might pick it up and bring it to them.

437
00:32:52,284 --> 00:33:01,104
So at that point, we can start adding in logic and incentives to make that whole process smoother.

438
00:33:01,364 --> 00:33:06,744
So how many bars of soap do you need to get to the Atlanta meetup?

439
00:33:08,524 --> 00:33:10,524
What's going to happen to them when they get there?

440
00:33:10,524 --> 00:33:14,624
Will someone take custody of them and then help in the distribution of them?

441
00:33:15,444 --> 00:33:22,684
And these are all just ways that we can do things ourselves without having to rely on trusted middlemen.

442
00:33:24,764 --> 00:33:28,324
Let's talk about a slightly more involved scenario than that.

443
00:33:29,664 --> 00:33:33,883
We obviously have merchants on Nostra, a handful of them.

444
00:33:33,964 --> 00:33:36,344
There's Leatherman, there's Soap Miner, there's Great Gee.

445
00:33:36,344 --> 00:33:40,764
I think a couple of others, forgive me for forgetting the names.

446
00:33:40,964 --> 00:33:41,644
And it's great, right?

447
00:33:41,644 --> 00:33:47,844
We have this sort of nascent commerce that's growing on Noster.

448
00:33:48,544 --> 00:33:51,024
Soon, I mean, there's already a store, right?

449
00:33:51,104 --> 00:33:56,144
The Shopster, and then in Nosterville, we had Eric F.J. present Conduit,

450
00:33:56,284 --> 00:33:59,044
which is going to be another decentralized store.

451
00:34:00,344 --> 00:34:01,564
And Plebeian Market.

452
00:34:01,944 --> 00:34:05,484
Of course, Chief Monkey, shout out, great guy.

453
00:34:05,484 --> 00:34:07,064
Plebian Market out in the UK.

454
00:34:09,624 --> 00:34:12,324
So, yes, you have the two that exist today,

455
00:34:12,444 --> 00:34:13,484
Shopster and Plebian Market,

456
00:34:13,584 --> 00:34:15,204
and then Conduit potentially coming

457
00:34:15,204 --> 00:34:16,284
in the next month or two.

458
00:34:17,264 --> 00:34:18,883
And because of Nostra's intrapabilities,

459
00:34:19,383 --> 00:34:21,824
it's likely going to be just one event

460
00:34:21,824 --> 00:34:23,184
that gets broadcast,

461
00:34:23,404 --> 00:34:26,444
and then these, quote-unquote,

462
00:34:26,604 --> 00:34:29,984
storefront clients list all the items,

463
00:34:30,244 --> 00:34:31,064
which is great, right?

464
00:34:31,124 --> 00:34:32,764
And we could say, like, you know,

465
00:34:32,764 --> 00:34:34,383
the early adopters, Leatherman, Greggie,

466
00:34:34,383 --> 00:34:40,244
soap miner. We know them, we trust them, we zap them, and we give them our address, and

467
00:34:40,244 --> 00:34:45,684
they ship it to our address. But let's sort of extend this to a scenario in which these marketplaces

468
00:34:45,684 --> 00:34:51,544
get very successful. And there's several merchants who are selling their goods on

469
00:34:51,544 --> 00:35:01,624
these marketplaces on Nostra. And you as an end consumer might be wary of sharing your address

470
00:35:01,624 --> 00:35:03,724
with some of these merchants.

471
00:35:03,724 --> 00:35:15,696
If for nothing else then on principle alone right And there is a possibility where this courier network can be used as an onion routing network right

472
00:35:15,715 --> 00:35:25,575
So courier A picks up a package from the originator, from the seller, gives it to courier B, right?

473
00:35:25,696 --> 00:35:27,815
So courier A only knows courier B's address.

474
00:35:28,295 --> 00:35:30,215
Courier B then takes it to courier C, right?

475
00:35:30,215 --> 00:35:35,975
And then Korea C gives it to you, but Korea C doesn't necessarily know that you're the destination.

476
00:35:36,255 --> 00:35:39,235
They might think you're just another stopping point on this journey, right?

477
00:35:39,456 --> 00:35:42,535
Sort of how lightning routing works, the Tor network works.

478
00:35:43,595 --> 00:35:49,356
Is that something that is in consideration for A to B?

479
00:35:49,956 --> 00:35:50,515
Absolutely.

480
00:35:50,515 --> 00:36:00,235
So to take it kind of reverse, as the purchaser, you could put in the end pub of your delivery guy.

481
00:36:00,715 --> 00:36:02,595
And this is someone you know personally.

482
00:36:02,835 --> 00:36:05,896
He knows where you live and he goes to the local meetups.

483
00:36:06,815 --> 00:36:14,135
So that person could then be the end point of the chain.

484
00:36:14,135 --> 00:36:18,295
And then what it would rely on is a system of nodes.

485
00:36:18,295 --> 00:36:25,196
So you would have the different people who, say, went between his meetup and the other meetup.

486
00:36:25,896 --> 00:36:27,515
That would be one of the chains.

487
00:36:27,815 --> 00:36:37,995
And then, yes, when the actual order is placed for delivery, you would know all the hops in between would be onion routed.

488
00:36:38,095 --> 00:36:41,315
So only the next person would know where he was taking it to next.

489
00:36:42,896 --> 00:36:47,035
So I'm trying to do this with, I'm calling them meetup ambassadors.

490
00:36:47,035 --> 00:36:51,456
but you might have, like Rev Hoddle goes to different meetups.

491
00:36:52,015 --> 00:36:57,075
So say he signs up to be a meetup ambassador between two of the Michigan meetups.

492
00:36:57,215 --> 00:37:03,075
So now we can put him down as that particular link.

493
00:37:03,495 --> 00:37:09,975
And then if somebody ordered something that was able to be taken all the way to that end pub,

494
00:37:10,115 --> 00:37:13,015
then it would go along that route.

495
00:37:13,015 --> 00:37:17,595
So it might take a little bit longer, but it would definitely get to you.

496
00:37:20,295 --> 00:37:24,175
And all of this, of course, does introduce cost into it, right?

497
00:37:24,235 --> 00:37:28,815
Like, I mean, let's say you try to ship something from California to New York.

498
00:37:29,456 --> 00:37:31,715
Unlikely that it's going to be one or two careers.

499
00:37:32,035 --> 00:37:34,035
It's probably going to be a string of 10.

500
00:37:34,916 --> 00:37:41,696
And obviously they need to be fed or at least their labor needs to be compensated.

501
00:37:41,696 --> 00:37:42,295
Sure.

502
00:37:43,015 --> 00:37:50,356
So clearly this is not a cheap alternative to USPS or UPS.

503
00:37:52,095 --> 00:37:53,595
It could be.

504
00:37:53,815 --> 00:38:01,015
It depends on if it's something like distributing tallow soap among lots of different meetups.

505
00:38:01,015 --> 00:38:10,755
I mean, just taking a dozen bars to each meetup, if you had 12 buyers at each site, you could significantly reduce the shipping cost.

506
00:38:10,755 --> 00:38:12,876
and as well

507
00:38:12,876 --> 00:38:14,396
so besides the

508
00:38:14,396 --> 00:38:16,896
the A to B I would say is

509
00:38:16,896 --> 00:38:19,396
will look more like a last

510
00:38:19,396 --> 00:38:20,416
mile delivery

511
00:38:20,416 --> 00:38:23,515
and behind the scenes we've got

512
00:38:23,515 --> 00:38:25,416
a whole network of nodes

513
00:38:25,416 --> 00:38:27,335
that are storing

514
00:38:27,335 --> 00:38:29,456
and transporting goods

515
00:38:29,456 --> 00:38:31,235
for online sellers

516
00:38:31,235 --> 00:38:33,155
in the Bitcoin Noster

517
00:38:33,155 --> 00:38:33,815
ecosystem

518
00:38:33,815 --> 00:38:37,495
and then the question

519
00:38:37,495 --> 00:38:39,275
there is also the broad question

520
00:38:39,275 --> 00:38:40,876
here, Shadrach, around trust, right?

521
00:38:40,896 --> 00:38:42,655
Like there is going to be a network of couriers

522
00:38:42,655 --> 00:38:46,456
who are shepherding the package from A to B, right?

523
00:38:46,655 --> 00:38:50,715
There's, I mean, A and B are not contiguous,

524
00:38:51,135 --> 00:38:51,835
discrete points.

525
00:38:52,095 --> 00:38:53,715
There's potentially, like I said,

526
00:38:53,755 --> 00:38:55,896
in the California to New York example,

527
00:38:56,175 --> 00:38:57,515
there could be 20 things in between.

528
00:38:57,956 --> 00:38:58,115
Yeah.

529
00:38:59,436 --> 00:39:04,735
How does that, how do you know that the courier one

530
00:39:04,735 --> 00:39:07,376
is not going to run off with your package

531
00:39:07,376 --> 00:39:09,835
or Korea 2 or anyone in the chain?

532
00:39:11,456 --> 00:39:19,215
So the ideas behind that are using insurance.

533
00:39:19,715 --> 00:39:23,695
So we kind of wait each shipment.

534
00:39:23,695 --> 00:39:29,856
So if, say, somebody's taking half a Bitcoin worth of stuff,

535
00:39:30,015 --> 00:39:35,055
that needs to be insured because we have to basically replace

536
00:39:35,055 --> 00:39:42,775
everything that was lost as best we can. So now if I'm the driver for that package,

537
00:39:42,775 --> 00:39:47,315
I may self-insure that, but that requires me to post half a Bitcoin as collateral.

538
00:39:48,396 --> 00:39:54,775
I may make a thousand dollars or, you know, I should do everything in Bitcoin, but you know,

539
00:39:54,856 --> 00:40:00,995
I make an amount on that delivery. If I can't stake the collateral myself, then there will be

540
00:40:00,995 --> 00:40:09,555
a pool of people who want to, say, five people want to contribute to that delivery, and then

541
00:40:09,555 --> 00:40:16,535
they will get a portion of the delivery fee. So there will be, for the larger, especially

542
00:40:16,535 --> 00:40:22,135
interstate loads and things, there will be some form of collateralized insurance.

543
00:40:23,715 --> 00:40:30,235
There is a, see, this brings up a question, Shadrach, which is, I understand the need for

544
00:40:30,235 --> 00:40:42,695
insurance, but it sounds like a fiat solution to a cypherpunk effort. Can this be solved

545
00:40:42,695 --> 00:40:52,896
on web of trust and reputation alone? I don't think so. With the biggest deliveries I do,

546
00:40:52,896 --> 00:41:00,715
this came up right away. And the thing is, if I, if I receive the goods and then something happens

547
00:41:00,715 --> 00:41:10,495
along the way, there's the producer and the receiver have lost out. Um, so there has to be

548
00:41:10,495 --> 00:41:19,396
a way to mitigate that. Um, and, and things happen. So I, I do, it's something I've struggled

549
00:41:19,396 --> 00:41:32,476
with as well. But fundamentally, like with auto insurance, I want my 20-year-old children to be

550
00:41:32,476 --> 00:41:40,635
able to have some mechanism where they can do damage and be able to make that person right,

551
00:41:40,635 --> 00:41:48,075
even if they don't have $30,000. Now, my children should be able to stake Bitcoin,

552
00:41:48,416 --> 00:41:55,416
maybe with many other people in the community. And now we have this pool of Bitcoin that can be used

553
00:41:55,416 --> 00:42:00,876
if somebody has an accident. That's how insurance was designed to be. And if you look at the original

554
00:42:00,876 --> 00:42:06,155
fire insurance out of Philadelphia, it was a community thing. Everyone pitched in. And if

555
00:42:06,155 --> 00:42:14,495
somebody's house burned down, it got rebuilt. So the idea of insurance is not, it's not a bad thing.

556
00:42:14,495 --> 00:42:22,515
I don't think insurance is fiat. I think we've been using insurance as fiat. We've financialized

557
00:42:22,515 --> 00:42:28,575
it. We've made it into its own package with bonds and requirements, capital requirements,

558
00:42:28,735 --> 00:42:31,575
and all these things which are completely unnecessary with Bitcoin.

559
00:42:31,575 --> 00:42:42,135
and where so does web of trust play a role in in this network though sure so again um who's going

560
00:42:42,135 --> 00:42:51,295
to ensure my huge load of you know i've got two tons of ground beef um if i'm the best driver out

561
00:42:51,295 --> 00:43:00,755
there then people will want to stake a portion of their bitcoin on my delivery because they are more

562
00:43:00,755 --> 00:43:09,755
likely to get paid out. And the best people out there and the most trustworthy people out there

563
00:43:09,755 --> 00:43:16,295
will be getting the complicated, the high value, the high security jobs.

564
00:43:19,476 --> 00:43:24,916
And make money and be able to make more Bitcoin on it because of that.

565
00:43:24,916 --> 00:43:28,035
And how would this trust be calculated?

566
00:43:28,755 --> 00:43:30,995
Or how are you doing it today?

567
00:43:32,115 --> 00:43:33,015
Sure, sure.

568
00:43:33,115 --> 00:43:33,675
Good question.

569
00:43:34,715 --> 00:43:36,655
So we don't know.

570
00:43:38,175 --> 00:43:42,035
I was hoping to get Grapevine integrated in this week,

571
00:43:42,255 --> 00:43:43,655
but we ran out of time.

572
00:43:44,916 --> 00:43:50,476
And then the Freedom Tech people have come up with some other ones.

573
00:43:50,476 --> 00:43:53,396
it was published, I think.

574
00:43:54,916 --> 00:43:58,335
Yeah, it was a Sunday while we were at Nosterville.

575
00:43:58,495 --> 00:44:00,075
They published those specs.

576
00:44:00,436 --> 00:44:04,675
So that's a simple one that uses existing Noster information.

577
00:44:05,976 --> 00:44:09,615
And then Grapevine wants to add a layer of,

578
00:44:10,476 --> 00:44:14,315
because I trust you, that increases the trust,

579
00:44:14,515 --> 00:44:17,856
like a kind of a web, more of the web of trust type of thing.

580
00:44:17,856 --> 00:44:19,416
And then highly configurable.

581
00:44:19,416 --> 00:44:25,335
grapevine looks amazing i'm super excited to integrate that but so yeah when you're selecting

582
00:44:25,335 --> 00:44:31,315
say three people say they'll pick up your package you'll be able to see those three people what

583
00:44:31,315 --> 00:44:39,396
their reputation is another score will be how many deliveries they've done and then we may add some

584
00:44:39,396 --> 00:44:44,555
kind of a rating system but i don't i don't really like stars and i think a lot of that can be gamed

585
00:44:44,555 --> 00:44:48,215
so it's a work in progress

586
00:44:48,215 --> 00:44:52,075
yeah I think the one that came out

587
00:44:52,075 --> 00:44:53,795
Jesus right he

588
00:44:53,795 --> 00:44:55,135
I think it's his name

589
00:44:55,135 --> 00:44:56,695
it's pronounced Jesus

590
00:44:56,695 --> 00:44:59,535
but it's written GZUUUS

591
00:44:59,535 --> 00:45:01,436
or something on Nostra

592
00:45:01,436 --> 00:45:04,795
it's a context VM

593
00:45:04,795 --> 00:45:05,295
right

594
00:45:05,295 --> 00:45:07,655
they've come out with

595
00:45:07,655 --> 00:45:09,495
when we were out in Nostraville

596
00:45:09,495 --> 00:45:10,635
they launched that

597
00:45:10,635 --> 00:45:11,896
so that seems pretty cool

598
00:45:11,896 --> 00:45:14,396
yeah and that'll be a really easy one

599
00:45:14,396 --> 00:45:18,976
to put in because you can just query their server with an npub and get a score back

600
00:45:18,976 --> 00:45:28,275
every show we do almost every show probably for the last i don't know 20 30 shows we've talked

601
00:45:28,275 --> 00:45:37,175
about web of trust obvi it it seems to be the the the big uh the big movement um as we approach

602
00:45:37,175 --> 00:45:41,335
year, three or four of Noster,

603
00:45:42,275 --> 00:45:45,936
kind of locking down the web of trust aspect.

604
00:45:45,936 --> 00:45:50,815
And it seems to be all these ideas have some layer of web of trust

605
00:45:50,815 --> 00:45:52,175
that's going to be needed.

606
00:45:54,436 --> 00:45:58,436
I just think it's, yeah, I know that was a big theme in Nosterville.

607
00:45:59,135 --> 00:46:00,936
You want to talk about that, Avi?

608
00:46:01,495 --> 00:46:02,715
Well, look, I think web of...

609
00:46:02,715 --> 00:46:05,795
All the way down to your health.

610
00:46:08,416 --> 00:46:09,416
Remind me of the name.

611
00:46:10,555 --> 00:46:10,995
Nosfabrica.

612
00:46:11,456 --> 00:46:12,416
Nosfabrica, there you go.

613
00:46:12,416 --> 00:46:15,135
Which we are broadening to web of trust now, QW,

614
00:46:15,255 --> 00:46:16,795
because what we ran into,

615
00:46:17,135 --> 00:46:21,035
and I touched upon this on the show we had with David Strahan,

616
00:46:21,555 --> 00:46:23,896
who Shadrach mentioned Grapevine.

617
00:46:24,515 --> 00:46:26,416
David's the creator of Grapevine.

618
00:46:26,416 --> 00:46:39,416
Look, the question of trust in a truly decentralized and transparent network is, to me, one of the foundational cypherpunk problems.

619
00:46:39,416 --> 00:46:48,416
How do you trust a piece of software? How do you trust someone you're buying something from with your address?

620
00:46:48,416 --> 00:46:52,396
The questions go on and on. In a network, how do you trust a piece of software?

621
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:56,027
where you're looking for a doctor, how do you know the person who's saying they're a doctor

622
00:46:56,027 --> 00:47:02,127
is a good doctor? First of all, is a doctor, period. And then once you know that they are a

623
00:47:02,127 --> 00:47:06,667
doctor, how do you know they're a good doctor? And the merchant you're transacting with,

624
00:47:06,807 --> 00:47:12,467
are they reliable? It's a truly foundational problem. And the easiest solution is to completely

625
00:47:12,467 --> 00:47:17,047
centralize the way Apple does with the App Store. How do you trust a piece of software that is not

626
00:47:17,047 --> 00:47:21,907
going to contain viruses and malware and ransomware and what have you.

627
00:47:22,027 --> 00:47:24,987
Well, Apple centralizes everything.

628
00:47:25,307 --> 00:47:27,407
They have their developer certification program.

629
00:47:27,607 --> 00:47:29,267
They vet every piece of content.

630
00:47:29,387 --> 00:47:31,247
And of course, they use an incredibly heavy hand.

631
00:47:31,787 --> 00:47:37,027
And you see Dahmer's getting rejected for your safety, right, QW, because it had zaps

632
00:47:37,027 --> 00:47:37,467
in it.

633
00:47:38,527 --> 00:47:40,267
I'm just happy they keep me safe.

634
00:47:40,267 --> 00:47:43,427
That's, you know, I feel very safe.

635
00:47:44,067 --> 00:47:45,747
But this is what happens, right?

636
00:47:45,747 --> 00:47:49,867
trust is a very difficult problem in a distributed network.

637
00:47:50,587 --> 00:47:52,827
And the easiest solution is to completely centralize

638
00:47:52,827 --> 00:47:54,627
and create gatekeepers who grant you,

639
00:47:54,847 --> 00:47:58,207
who you're essentially renting out that trust.

640
00:48:00,267 --> 00:48:04,947
So the fact that it's coming into the fore,

641
00:48:05,467 --> 00:48:07,027
and it has been in the last one year,

642
00:48:07,127 --> 00:48:09,127
but it seems to be picking up steam,

643
00:48:09,527 --> 00:48:11,227
these conversations around web of trust,

644
00:48:11,227 --> 00:48:13,167
is because this is the zeitgeist.

645
00:48:13,167 --> 00:48:25,307
I think people have realized that NOSTA is at the point where, yes, maybe on the social network side, there's not, you know, maybe the conversations are getting a bit lame or they're drying up a little bit.

646
00:48:25,447 --> 00:48:27,147
It's, I mean, just a cycle in my mind.

647
00:48:27,667 --> 00:48:33,547
But in so many other ways, NOSTA is ready to explode, I think.

648
00:48:34,467 --> 00:48:42,027
But without a meaningful web of trust layer, I don't think that's going to happen.

649
00:48:42,027 --> 00:48:48,027
And that's why you have great products like Vertex, which provides these trust scores.

650
00:48:48,207 --> 00:48:51,487
You have GrapeRank, which is truly open, right?

651
00:48:51,547 --> 00:48:55,467
Vertex is like, you kind of have to trust Vertex to deliver the score.

652
00:48:56,647 --> 00:49:01,127
GrapeRank using trusted assertions, NIP85, it's all open.

653
00:49:01,387 --> 00:49:02,927
You can see for yourself what's happening.

654
00:49:03,947 --> 00:49:09,587
And then Jesus came up with his trust score over the weekend.

655
00:49:10,467 --> 00:49:11,407
And there will be others.

656
00:49:11,407 --> 00:49:17,427
And this is the zeitgeist because we need to solve this problem before we can have music curation.

657
00:49:17,547 --> 00:49:22,627
How do you know the music you're listening to on Wave Lake is an AI slop?

658
00:49:22,787 --> 00:49:24,887
I mean, at this point, almost all of it is.

659
00:49:26,007 --> 00:49:28,447
But how do you know a real human is making that?

660
00:49:28,487 --> 00:49:30,927
And how do you know that it's something you ought to be listening to?

661
00:49:32,387 --> 00:49:36,487
So, yeah, I think a lot of these threads are converging.

662
00:49:36,487 --> 00:49:39,987
And I suspect 2026 will be the year of Web of Trust.

663
00:49:41,407 --> 00:49:42,047
I agree.

664
00:49:43,467 --> 00:49:46,787
What are you seeing just on this topic?

665
00:49:46,907 --> 00:49:52,747
I know it's a bit of a small sidetrack from the transport layer.

666
00:49:53,767 --> 00:49:55,587
Oh, no, this is super important.

667
00:49:57,587 --> 00:49:59,927
I think I see it maybe a little bit different

668
00:49:59,927 --> 00:50:05,727
because I've left my, I don't know,

669
00:50:05,727 --> 00:50:17,587
Bitcoin maxi, I want to say like third cycle phase and kind of moved into the full feral.

670
00:50:19,167 --> 00:50:22,587
You know, I'm ready to really get into this.

671
00:50:23,587 --> 00:50:27,767
I'm connecting with a lot of different communities that aren't just Bitcoin and Noster.

672
00:50:27,767 --> 00:50:34,827
And the ideas of Web of Trust have to include, say, an eco village in California,

673
00:50:34,827 --> 00:50:39,547
different kinds of migrant workers.

674
00:50:40,087 --> 00:50:43,227
I mean, a lot of Bitcoiners would love to hop in a van

675
00:50:43,227 --> 00:50:45,767
and go pick grapes for Ben Justman.

676
00:50:47,167 --> 00:50:50,927
How do we integrate this web of trust?

677
00:50:51,747 --> 00:50:55,607
Kind of, I see it more from location specifics.

678
00:50:55,607 --> 00:50:57,967
So we have different regions of the country

679
00:50:57,967 --> 00:51:00,087
who are really good at doing different things.

680
00:51:01,107 --> 00:51:03,707
We've got areas where we've got great ranches.

681
00:51:03,707 --> 00:51:08,727
We've got great wine. We've got great produce.

682
00:51:10,647 --> 00:51:21,447
And how do we create a system where, you know, because I'm trusted at this main location, say a meetup area,

683
00:51:22,227 --> 00:51:26,127
and because I've done different work at different ecovillages,

684
00:51:26,127 --> 00:51:33,147
that means that I can, say, work in a more private area with a higher level of trust.

685
00:51:33,147 --> 00:51:37,167
because I've built that up over time by putting in my proof of work.

686
00:51:37,887 --> 00:51:39,587
That's really what we need to see.

687
00:51:40,087 --> 00:51:45,747
This isn't going to be a digital-only software solution.

688
00:51:46,607 --> 00:51:53,447
We have to see this as a genuine human being problem that we're working on.

689
00:51:55,727 --> 00:51:56,367
Absolutely.

690
00:51:56,367 --> 00:52:07,447
Absolutely. So, Shadrach, let's talk about, I suspect this was a somewhat hypothetical conversation you and I were having when we met in person in Nashville.

691
00:52:07,447 --> 00:52:15,807
And we were talking about another meat space area where it's just so invasive from a privacy standpoint, which is rental cars.

692
00:52:15,807 --> 00:52:26,347
Right. If you are in a new town and you want to get around, you've got to basically go through a rectal exam before you get that car.

693
00:52:26,367 --> 00:52:28,567
the amount of information that you have to give.

694
00:52:28,807 --> 00:52:32,387
And you had some ideas on how this could be a light touch,

695
00:52:32,387 --> 00:52:39,167
maybe no KYC network, again, based on North Stoke.

696
00:52:39,307 --> 00:52:40,527
Do you want to share that idea?

697
00:52:41,207 --> 00:52:41,627
Yeah, yeah.

698
00:52:41,787 --> 00:52:46,727
I mean, in theory, there could be somebody, say, in the Czech Republic

699
00:52:46,727 --> 00:52:52,867
who had two or three travel vans, and I fly over, I have a good reputation,

700
00:52:52,867 --> 00:53:02,207
I stake some or all of my Bitcoin into a multi-sig wallet to back up the cost of the vehicle.

701
00:53:03,127 --> 00:53:05,127
And then he hands me the keys.

702
00:53:06,127 --> 00:53:08,307
I have a driver's license.

703
00:53:08,627 --> 00:53:11,647
I went to got my international driver's license, whatever.

704
00:53:11,887 --> 00:53:14,307
That's on me if I get pulled over.

705
00:53:15,227 --> 00:53:20,847
But he has a vehicle that's licensed under local regulations.

706
00:53:20,847 --> 00:53:25,167
he can follow that as closely or as non-closely.

707
00:53:25,587 --> 00:53:28,167
I would like that to be disclosed, obviously.

708
00:53:29,427 --> 00:53:35,087
But, yeah, in theory, I could just go and just stream SATs

709
00:53:35,087 --> 00:53:37,987
as I drive around Europe in a travel van

710
00:53:37,987 --> 00:53:43,527
rather than having to KYC with one of these

711
00:53:43,527 --> 00:53:48,467
overpriced, undervalued travel van places.

712
00:53:50,847 --> 00:54:00,347
Yeah. You hear that, QW? No KYC rental cars.

713
00:54:00,727 --> 00:54:06,887
We can be digital nomads, Avi, just like a lot of our guests have been over the years.

714
00:54:07,187 --> 00:54:12,827
Just take our van and you can park it down by the river like you've always dreamed of, Avi.

715
00:54:14,687 --> 00:54:17,427
It wouldn't be our van. It'll be someone else's van.

716
00:54:18,747 --> 00:54:20,307
That's the neat part.

717
00:54:20,847 --> 00:54:23,567
I live in someone else's van down by the river.

718
00:54:26,027 --> 00:54:32,527
And it's important because, I mean, if somebody has three travel vans or several cars,

719
00:54:32,747 --> 00:54:38,787
as Bitcoiners, we can be leasing a lot of things because we have the ability to post collateral.

720
00:54:39,067 --> 00:54:43,827
So rather than $5,000 down so much a month to lease a car, we could just say,

721
00:54:43,827 --> 00:54:48,407
hey, I'll stake the Bitcoin. Let me drive it for $100,000 a month.

722
00:54:50,847 --> 00:54:54,947
Now, this is a hypothetical conversation at this point, right, Shadrach?

723
00:54:55,207 --> 00:54:57,167
Is there something like this in practice today?

724
00:54:58,567 --> 00:54:59,207
Maybe.

725
00:55:00,447 --> 00:55:00,767
Okay.

726
00:55:02,367 --> 00:55:03,807
But probably not.

727
00:55:04,107 --> 00:55:04,887
Probably not.

728
00:55:05,787 --> 00:55:06,667
It's unlikely.

729
00:55:07,307 --> 00:55:07,487
Yeah.

730
00:55:07,847 --> 00:55:08,967
Who would do that?

731
00:55:09,427 --> 00:55:10,527
It's a nice dream.

732
00:55:11,827 --> 00:55:12,847
Speaking of dreams.

733
00:55:12,847 --> 00:55:15,407
It's amazing what ideas can be unlocked peer-to-peer.

734
00:55:15,407 --> 00:55:19,787
And I think that's the foundation there.

735
00:55:20,847 --> 00:55:27,587
But speaking of Dream, Shadrach, and another one that's definitely not going to get unlocked.

736
00:55:28,067 --> 00:55:36,167
But let's just talk about this use case, which is, so we talked about how intrusive this rental vehicle system is.

737
00:55:36,667 --> 00:55:40,227
Something that's even more intrusive is traveling across borders.

738
00:55:41,067 --> 00:55:44,827
Or, you know what, let's even set aside international for a second.

739
00:55:45,247 --> 00:55:47,347
Even domestic travel from New York to California,

740
00:55:47,487 --> 00:55:50,667
yes, you can sit in a car for however long,

741
00:55:50,807 --> 00:55:52,287
for 50 hours if you wanted.

742
00:55:53,367 --> 00:55:54,607
It's bad for your back.

743
00:55:54,687 --> 00:55:56,187
It's inefficient, right?

744
00:55:57,187 --> 00:55:59,047
Or you can get on a plane and fly.

745
00:55:59,147 --> 00:56:01,967
But of course, getting on a plane and flying

746
00:56:01,967 --> 00:56:07,407
involves having to deal with all sorts of unsavory characters

747
00:56:07,407 --> 00:56:09,287
under the name of your protection.

748
00:56:09,287 --> 00:56:18,327
Again, we were having this hypothetical conversation about a system that would be able to route

749
00:56:18,327 --> 00:56:19,327
around that as well.

750
00:56:19,327 --> 00:56:21,327
Would you like to talk about that?

751
00:56:21,327 --> 00:56:41,739
Yeah I think private airfields when I was contemplating the rental car ideas I came in contact with a private airfield who when you land your plane there they have a car and it just you know it licensed it legal And you just you know

752
00:56:41,739 --> 00:56:49,019
drop off your plane and hop in the car and you, you know, drive around, hang out wherever you are

753
00:56:49,019 --> 00:56:56,899
until your plane's ready, like for repairs and stuff. And so that kind of, that gave me the idea

754
00:56:56,899 --> 00:56:59,659
that there could be a network of private airfields

755
00:56:59,659 --> 00:57:01,739
where you kind of go the opposite direction.

756
00:57:02,019 --> 00:57:05,219
You show up in your car and you hop in a plane

757
00:57:05,219 --> 00:57:09,379
and you get taken to the next stop.

758
00:57:10,339 --> 00:57:15,139
And it just seemed like a perfect fit.

759
00:57:18,019 --> 00:57:19,819
Now, let's just...

760
00:57:19,819 --> 00:57:23,859
I remember Nostra Valley 1.0, our conversation,

761
00:57:23,859 --> 00:57:28,999
I think there was one pleb that actually flew there, I think, in their own plane.

762
00:57:30,239 --> 00:57:33,179
I don't know why I remember that, but it just reminds me of that.

763
00:57:33,539 --> 00:57:39,239
There was, and I was at Noster Valley 1.0, so I did meet y'all.

764
00:57:39,339 --> 00:57:43,759
I may have been part of that conversation, and that may have been some inspiration.

765
00:57:46,239 --> 00:57:48,499
That's why it kind of rings a bell with me.

766
00:57:48,579 --> 00:57:50,479
I'm like, man, that's actually pretty cool.

767
00:57:50,479 --> 00:57:55,979
I've had a few customers over my time, old, old, old people that like this old guy that lived by himself.

768
00:57:56,099 --> 00:58:01,719
He he just flies on plane from here to Illinois, you know, anytime he wanted to.

769
00:58:01,819 --> 00:58:03,359
And you're like, oh, that's that's pretty.

770
00:58:04,059 --> 00:58:05,299
That's pretty cool, man.

771
00:58:05,679 --> 00:58:08,159
Just fly your own plane over there real quick.

772
00:58:08,239 --> 00:58:08,879
No big deal.

773
00:58:09,639 --> 00:58:09,839
Yeah.

774
00:58:09,919 --> 00:58:20,119
And that's kind of why I wanted to bring up the different groups, because there's a lot of people out there who are very sovereign and are not into Bitcoin.

775
00:58:20,119 --> 00:58:29,799
and Noster. I would say especially the boomers, but they're getting old. They don't have the

776
00:58:29,799 --> 00:58:35,259
community that they hoped they would have. And they really, really appreciate young people who

777
00:58:35,259 --> 00:58:42,119
are interested in what they're doing. And there's a lot of crossover out there. I think don't sleep

778
00:58:42,119 --> 00:58:47,839
on the boomers yet. A lot of them are sitting on their homesteads with piles of gold, wondering

779
00:58:47,839 --> 00:58:50,199
what to do with their last 10 or 20 years.

780
00:58:50,439 --> 00:58:51,459
How to sell the top.

781
00:58:53,659 --> 00:58:57,159
Yeah, this guy actually, he flew his plane like you'd drive your car.

782
00:58:57,479 --> 00:59:01,119
He'd just by himself, just fly over to his other house in Illinois.

783
00:59:02,199 --> 00:59:03,619
I've never heard of that before.

784
00:59:03,719 --> 00:59:05,399
I was like, wow, that's really interesting.

785
00:59:06,199 --> 00:59:10,079
Growing up in this TSA world,

786
00:59:10,919 --> 00:59:15,139
you just don't think about the other side of how it used to be

787
00:59:15,139 --> 00:59:19,459
or what kind of flights you can actually do because you're so just, I don't know,

788
00:59:19,619 --> 00:59:25,339
you're conditioned to this security and safety world.

789
00:59:26,319 --> 00:59:28,879
Sure. And there's a lot of potential on the sea as well.

790
00:59:29,279 --> 00:59:33,839
There's Bitcoiners who have yachts and there's Bitcoiners who like to sail.

791
00:59:34,519 --> 00:59:40,979
And, you know, grab a few bags of green beans while you're down in Central America

792
00:59:40,979 --> 00:59:44,139
and bring them on back to Baltimore.

793
00:59:45,139 --> 00:59:47,119
Yeah, the sea's an interesting one.

794
00:59:47,119 --> 00:59:54,099
You go on a cruise or something, and at a certain point you hit one line in the water,

795
00:59:54,299 --> 00:59:55,779
and all of a sudden the casino's open.

796
00:59:56,739 --> 01:00:03,339
It's like these different worlds, these different laws, all by these imaginary lines.

797
01:00:03,659 --> 01:00:10,699
It goes back to the movie Blow, when he's trying to plead his case about imaginary lines.

798
01:00:12,019 --> 01:00:14,419
But I think that scene was awesome.

799
01:00:14,419 --> 01:00:19,419
But yeah, it's interesting. I mean, there's a lot of opportunity at all these junctures.

800
01:00:21,779 --> 01:00:33,419
Shadrach, we've talked about, I mean, just on the topic of the sea, there is this notion of seasteading. Is there a seastead plan for the Mestadel?

801
01:00:33,419 --> 01:00:41,599
though? Not that we've talked about, but there's a great on the Free Cities podcast. If you

802
01:00:41,599 --> 01:00:49,339
subscribe on Fountain, there's a great interview where Giacomo Zucco interviews the host of Free

803
01:00:49,339 --> 01:00:54,199
Cities podcast, and they talk a lot about seasteading. So highly recommend, subscribe.

804
01:00:55,779 --> 01:01:02,079
And that's a really, really good podcast. But yeah, I think seasteading and Giacomo was also

805
01:01:02,079 --> 01:01:05,279
So he had discounted seasteading and he was very intrigued.

806
01:01:05,579 --> 01:01:10,259
So I think we might get a lot of mutual interest in that again.

807
01:01:12,379 --> 01:01:14,819
So coming back to the planes, though, right?

808
01:01:15,419 --> 01:01:24,019
QW brought up the pleb who flew in a plane to Noster Valley one point.

809
01:01:24,119 --> 01:01:25,119
That was about a year ago.

810
01:01:26,019 --> 01:01:28,559
Presumably he owned that plane.

811
01:01:28,559 --> 01:01:32,019
I can't remember now, but I think he did.

812
01:01:32,079 --> 01:01:34,759
I think that was the point of it

813
01:01:34,759 --> 01:01:36,359
that was intriguing

814
01:01:36,359 --> 01:01:38,479
but not everyone can own a plane

815
01:01:38,479 --> 01:01:40,679
so if someone

816
01:01:40,679 --> 01:01:42,879
wants this sort of hassle free

817
01:01:42,879 --> 01:01:44,999
travel we need

818
01:01:44,999 --> 01:01:46,659
a plane network

819
01:01:46,659 --> 01:01:47,959
and I suspect

820
01:01:47,959 --> 01:01:50,919
there is some intersection with

821
01:01:50,919 --> 01:01:52,399
air traffic control somewhere

822
01:01:52,399 --> 01:01:54,739
maybe Shadrach

823
01:01:54,739 --> 01:01:56,479
you've looked into this more than I have

824
01:01:56,479 --> 01:01:58,639
so

825
01:01:58,639 --> 01:02:00,699
where would this network

826
01:02:00,699 --> 01:02:04,919
of small planes, I'm guessing, where would they come from?

827
01:02:05,759 --> 01:02:12,139
And what about the intersection points with the state, namely air traffic control?

828
01:02:13,719 --> 01:02:15,879
I wish I had more to say on it.

829
01:02:16,039 --> 01:02:17,599
I don't, I haven't.

830
01:02:18,859 --> 01:02:23,739
Mostly what I've been doing is connecting with pilots and mechanics who are interested

831
01:02:23,739 --> 01:02:26,759
when we are able to take this to the next level.

832
01:02:30,699 --> 01:02:48,699
Right. Interesting times indeed, though. And again, just playing out the hypothetical conversation, right? So let's say you did get your hands on the plane and so on and so forth. Then the domestic travel, we've talked about that, how that would work hypothetically.

833
01:02:48,699 --> 01:02:54,139
what about international because that's where things start getting a little hairy and that's

834
01:02:54,139 --> 01:03:04,699
where these kyc intrusions get far more for lack of a better term intrusive um what about a scenario

835
01:03:04,699 --> 01:03:12,359
in which someone is in the u.s and then they go to another they want to go to another citadel and

836
01:03:12,359 --> 01:03:16,419
let's pick Roatan, right, in Prospera.

837
01:03:16,599 --> 01:03:19,339
It's this, if you're familiar with the Shadrach,

838
01:03:19,439 --> 01:03:22,779
it's this sort of independent island.

839
01:03:23,039 --> 01:03:25,159
I think it was carved out through a treaty

840
01:03:25,159 --> 01:03:28,819
and in Prospera there's this Bitcoin circular economy

841
01:03:28,819 --> 01:03:30,499
that's been set up

842
01:03:30,499 --> 01:03:33,039
and I'm guessing they have a private airfield there.

843
01:03:33,919 --> 01:03:36,399
How would that hypothetically work?

844
01:03:36,479 --> 01:03:41,139
Someone from, let's say, New York or Phoenix even,

845
01:03:41,139 --> 01:03:45,699
if they wanted to fly there, hassle-free, no passport, none of that nonsense.

846
01:03:46,459 --> 01:03:47,719
How would that work?

847
01:03:48,819 --> 01:03:51,739
Well, I can't answer that.

848
01:03:51,739 --> 01:03:56,219
But for now, it works however they're doing it currently.

849
01:03:56,999 --> 01:04:01,359
That doesn't address the inherent problems that you brought up, though.

850
01:04:01,759 --> 01:04:03,399
And there's a lot more problems.

851
01:04:04,439 --> 01:04:07,739
Border security, especially for U.S. citizens,

852
01:04:07,739 --> 01:04:14,699
border security in any country can look up all of your travel history they can look up a significant

853
01:04:14,699 --> 01:04:22,059
part of your financial history because they need you know they need to make quick decisions on

854
01:04:22,059 --> 01:04:28,919
whether to stop you or not and these can be countries that are hostile to the U.S. they can

855
01:04:28,919 --> 01:04:36,399
be countries that are hostile towards Bitcoiners when you check into a hotel and you have to KYC

856
01:04:36,399 --> 01:04:46,899
Anybody at that hotel desk could be working for someone who's looking for, you know, if any of these names check in, let us know.

857
01:04:47,059 --> 01:04:48,439
It will give you $10,000.

858
01:04:49,459 --> 01:04:55,439
This is going to be, if not already a reality, a very serious reality in the future.

859
01:04:57,199 --> 01:05:00,999
So I don't have a proposal for the current system.

860
01:05:00,999 --> 01:05:14,419
But what I am interested in and have been working with some people on is the idea of having anonymized passports where you are able to travel under, say, a pseudonym.

861
01:05:15,139 --> 01:05:25,859
On that passport are contacts for if there is an altercation, if government officials need to know who you really are.

862
01:05:26,059 --> 01:05:27,959
There's a process they can go through.

863
01:05:27,959 --> 01:05:36,679
but I think very soon we're going to need to be abstracting our identities for international travel.

864
01:05:40,619 --> 01:05:42,279
Yeah, interesting terms indeed.

865
01:05:42,399 --> 01:05:49,599
And a lot of these countries that do this checking of financial history

866
01:05:49,599 --> 01:05:51,819
and all of that stuff for U.S. citizens,

867
01:05:52,139 --> 01:05:56,979
they're probably the first ones to have an open border for just about everyone else.

868
01:05:57,959 --> 01:06:02,079
So the double standard is odd over there.

869
01:06:03,759 --> 01:06:06,579
But maybe, sorry, were you going to say something, Shadrach?

870
01:06:06,799 --> 01:06:07,419
Oh, no, sorry.

871
01:06:09,919 --> 01:06:26,651
Okay Let go back to I think where you said this all began which is allowing art to travel freely across borders Is that a fair summary of your starting point in this journey

872
01:06:26,651 --> 01:06:34,051
yeah and i i would it was a combination of things so me driving around the united states trying to

873
01:06:34,051 --> 01:06:44,491
organize um in a more efficient way people and packages um kind of uh through a wonderful series

874
01:06:44,491 --> 01:06:53,051
of circumstances um exposed difficulties in specifically europe with uh or coming in and

875
01:06:53,051 --> 01:07:00,091
of the U.S. with bringing things you want to take to a Bitcoin conference. If you want to

876
01:07:01,131 --> 01:07:11,851
take your art from, say, France to England to show it, you've got to cross the French border

877
01:07:11,851 --> 01:07:17,451
and the UK border. Both of them are going to want to know how much your art is worth. They're going

878
01:07:17,451 --> 01:07:25,611
going to want to charge you for it. The whole system is set up for the commercial art industry.

879
01:07:26,371 --> 01:07:33,671
So everything has a price, there's paperwork they require, and then they're charging you

880
01:07:33,671 --> 01:07:38,971
just to move a piece of art to show in another country and then bring home with you.

881
01:07:38,971 --> 01:07:49,831
So that may work for some aspects of the art industry, but when back to the why are we spending so much fiat on everything?

882
01:07:50,491 --> 01:07:56,791
It's a huge, it's extractive and it's demoralizing for the artists.

883
01:07:57,151 --> 01:08:02,311
It's cost prohibitive to be able to show your stuff.

884
01:08:02,311 --> 01:08:04,511
and then

885
01:08:04,511 --> 01:08:07,771
ultimately there's no

886
01:08:07,771 --> 01:08:10,111
you know the conferences want to look

887
01:08:10,111 --> 01:08:12,271
like they support culture

888
01:08:12,271 --> 01:08:14,251
and they say

889
01:08:14,251 --> 01:08:16,031
they're giving artists a place to do that

890
01:08:16,031 --> 01:08:17,831
but there's no support for

891
01:08:17,831 --> 01:08:20,091
there's no

892
01:08:20,091 --> 01:08:22,051
formal way of doing

893
01:08:22,051 --> 01:08:23,851
that in a way that satisfies

894
01:08:23,851 --> 01:08:26,131
Border Patrol and all the

895
01:08:26,131 --> 01:08:27,431
other aspects so

896
01:08:27,431 --> 01:08:28,931
they're kind of

897
01:08:28,931 --> 01:08:32,291
leaving it up to the artist to deal with it

898
01:08:32,291 --> 01:08:42,531
So that was a big part of formalizing A to B because we started doing all of that ourselves.

899
01:08:42,531 --> 01:09:02,371
So we started organizing who can bring the conference decorations from France to London, who can bring the conference decorations from London to Glasgow, you know, and back and forth.

900
01:09:02,371 --> 01:09:08,111
because otherwise you're paying thousands of dollars in fiat to UPS

901
01:09:08,111 --> 01:09:14,511
and then hundreds of dollars to basically arbitrary border agents

902
01:09:14,511 --> 01:09:16,111
who just make up prices.

903
01:09:16,111 --> 01:09:21,191
And sometimes you'll ship something and you'll have two packages.

904
01:09:21,671 --> 01:09:22,871
One gets to you fine.

905
01:09:22,971 --> 01:09:26,611
The other one is being held hostage at the port of Dover

906
01:09:26,611 --> 01:09:31,751
and you literally have to drive to Dover and negotiate hostage.

907
01:09:32,371 --> 01:09:35,051
all to just display

908
01:09:35,051 --> 01:09:37,311
I remember our episode with Fractal and Crypt

909
01:09:37,311 --> 01:09:37,991
yeah

910
01:09:37,991 --> 01:09:41,091
his art was held hostage

911
01:09:41,091 --> 01:09:42,291
in Portugal I believe

912
01:09:42,291 --> 01:09:45,171
yeah and all he was

913
01:09:45,171 --> 01:09:47,191
doing was displaying it there and bringing it back

914
01:09:47,191 --> 01:09:48,791
yeah it's insane

915
01:09:48,791 --> 01:09:51,411
Shadrach

916
01:09:51,411 --> 01:09:53,251
do you have any interesting

917
01:09:53,251 --> 01:09:54,771
stories with

918
01:09:54,771 --> 01:09:57,171
art and like anything

919
01:09:57,171 --> 01:09:59,411
that actually happened in this process

920
01:09:59,411 --> 01:10:01,231
yeah so coming

921
01:10:01,231 --> 01:10:10,851
Going back from Glasgow, we got the conference decorations all the way to Paris, and then

922
01:10:10,851 --> 01:10:18,651
the person bringing it from Paris to Lugano, he had to answer lots of questions at the

923
01:10:18,651 --> 01:10:19,651
French side.

924
01:10:19,651 --> 01:10:25,071
Then he crosses over, he answers questions at the Swiss side.

925
01:10:25,071 --> 01:10:27,231
Everything's fine, but his phone stopped working.

926
01:10:27,231 --> 01:10:33,731
So he parked his car, went to look for a Swiss SIM card, and by the time he got back to the

927
01:10:33,731 --> 01:10:36,111
car, it was surrounded by border agents.

928
01:10:36,911 --> 01:10:44,671
And they kept him there for about four hours, asking him about how much things were worth,

929
01:10:44,671 --> 01:10:46,431
what he was doing, who they were for.

930
01:10:47,751 --> 01:10:55,271
And then they ended up threatening to Google search to find prices for the artwork.

931
01:10:55,271 --> 01:11:01,731
and then finally they settled on a price

932
01:11:01,731 --> 01:11:06,851
and for the mere cost of 240 Swiss francs,

933
01:11:07,311 --> 01:11:08,611
they let him go.

934
01:11:10,671 --> 01:11:11,711
And a pure extortion.

935
01:11:12,471 --> 01:11:14,091
Yeah, absolute extortion.

936
01:11:16,111 --> 01:11:18,571
And they were from Switzerland,

937
01:11:18,811 --> 01:11:22,611
so they were literally being returned to their owner in person.

938
01:11:22,611 --> 01:11:33,391
who was the artist of these pieces uh yeah so my co-founder for a to b is jenna so jenna art

939
01:11:33,391 --> 01:11:42,011
she's amazing she's on nostr um uh just an incredible artist huge um community supporter

940
01:11:42,011 --> 01:11:52,411
she just did some really good surfboards for bitcoin akasa um and um she she's a a giver

941
01:11:52,411 --> 01:11:54,651
she believes in this community

942
01:11:54,651 --> 01:11:56,791
she wants to

943
01:11:56,791 --> 01:11:58,911
bring beauty to it

944
01:11:58,911 --> 01:12:00,871
and it's been

945
01:12:00,871 --> 01:12:03,031
a challenge every step of the way

946
01:12:03,031 --> 01:12:04,391
Fiat is an

947
01:12:04,391 --> 01:12:05,911
evil, evil beast

948
01:12:05,911 --> 01:12:08,731
and it's

949
01:12:08,731 --> 01:12:09,951
really hard for artists

950
01:12:09,951 --> 01:12:12,891
as we know from the music

951
01:12:12,891 --> 01:12:14,771
industry, it's a similar

952
01:12:14,771 --> 01:12:15,231
thing

953
01:12:15,231 --> 01:12:22,291
artwork is such an interesting

954
01:12:22,291 --> 01:12:32,311
one though because uh you know uh hunter biden can paint something some chinese uh diplomat will

955
01:12:32,311 --> 01:12:39,091
buy it for two million dollars he may never even get the art but it's like it's a racket some of it

956
01:12:39,091 --> 01:12:44,511
you know so you know people that are honest people that are actual artists um that are trying to make

957
01:12:44,511 --> 01:12:51,491
a living uh just crossing a border uh they get into that whole gray area that that that uh you

958
01:12:51,491 --> 01:12:57,911
know money laundering and all that other bullshit that's uh kind of attached to uh the the value of

959
01:12:57,911 --> 01:13:04,551
an art piece um it it shit rolls downhill i suppose uh and it just sucks in that respect

960
01:13:04,551 --> 01:13:13,771
yeah sorry rant over no it's it's it's it's tragic it really it really is um art art is uh you know

961
01:13:13,771 --> 01:13:21,191
when people talk about broken money i mean they bring up the entire art industry um what what's

962
01:13:21,191 --> 01:13:31,091
that all about yeah yeah and uh i mean it's it's there's a lot of lost art too um as in as in trades

963
01:13:31,091 --> 01:13:38,051
and uh the way the the time it takes and uh the the quality of art i'm sure obvious can go on and

964
01:13:38,051 --> 01:13:45,211
on about uh different time periods in art but uh yeah it's it seems like i don't know it shouldn't

965
01:13:45,211 --> 01:13:52,251
be that hard to display art at a uh in lugano you know yeah yeah yeah that that's that's made by a

966
01:13:52,251 --> 01:14:01,631
swiss artist and and you know qw speaking of artists being held up at borders and ill-treated

967
01:14:01,631 --> 01:14:08,371
remember the roger 9000 story i mean i shouldn't be laughing it's just did you know the story

968
01:14:08,371 --> 01:14:15,611
Shadrach with Roger 9000? What happened to him in the US? I mean, please tell it, but I love Roger.

969
01:14:15,951 --> 01:14:22,091
We hung out a lot in Glasgow. One of my favorite people. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think he's one of

970
01:14:22,091 --> 01:14:29,631
everyone's favorite people. He was, I think he was flying back from one of the adopting Bitcoin

971
01:14:29,631 --> 01:14:31,051
conferences to Australia.

972
01:14:33,531 --> 01:14:39,171
So from El Salvador, Australia, but I think he had a stop in somewhere on the west coast

973
01:14:39,171 --> 01:14:39,771
of the US.

974
01:14:40,411 --> 01:14:47,331
And when he got off the plane, he was accosted by border agents saying, we have video of

975
01:14:47,331 --> 01:14:51,951
you playing for money at Bitcoin conferences.

976
01:14:52,291 --> 01:14:53,451
And he said, what are you talking about?

977
01:14:54,071 --> 01:14:58,511
Yes, I played music at Bitcoin conferences, but this is not like no one paid me anything.

978
01:14:58,511 --> 01:15:02,231
they're like well how did you get in well you know yeah i mean the ticket whatever

979
01:15:02,231 --> 01:15:09,111
so they actually had video of him in different u.s conferences where he plays right that's what he

980
01:15:09,111 --> 01:15:16,871
used to do i think his first warning was hodl ween when he came to do the hodl ween uh and then the

981
01:15:16,871 --> 01:15:22,811
second time that's when they they really ramped it up on him but yeah on the west coast i think

982
01:15:22,811 --> 01:15:27,331
it was california when he was leaving there well but but so they had video of him doing this but

983
01:15:27,331 --> 01:15:28,951
This guy, you know, you've met Roger.

984
01:15:28,991 --> 01:15:30,511
He's a chocolatier and a musician.

985
01:15:31,431 --> 01:15:33,251
Threw him into the back of a paddy wagon.

986
01:15:33,511 --> 01:15:36,631
And I think they kept him locked up for a couple of days.

987
01:15:36,811 --> 01:15:40,591
And then they canceled his visa and deported him.

988
01:15:41,351 --> 01:15:41,551
Yep.

989
01:15:41,651 --> 01:15:43,971
And he's no longer allowed to come into the United States.

990
01:15:44,391 --> 01:15:46,931
Yeah, for another, you know, I think it's another three years now.

991
01:15:47,351 --> 01:15:47,531
Yeah.

992
01:15:49,211 --> 01:16:00,963
Just one more cycle He be fine He be back Why would he want to be I mean he doesn i wouldn i wouldn go through that again and and i had a similar thing i was coming um

993
01:16:00,963 --> 01:16:10,683
across the um to get a hologram for uh roger 9000 hologram performance totally yeah i was coming

994
01:16:10,683 --> 01:16:18,663
across uh from uh france to england and uh bringing uh festival decorations and they were

995
01:16:18,663 --> 01:16:20,883
they pulled up my financial data

996
01:16:20,883 --> 01:16:22,503
and they were like, who's paying you?

997
01:16:22,643 --> 01:16:25,543
And I'm like, I'm volunteering.

998
01:16:25,883 --> 01:16:27,263
And they were like, we don't believe you.

999
01:16:27,363 --> 01:16:29,043
You have to tell us who's paying you.

1000
01:16:30,223 --> 01:16:31,663
And I mean, what do you do?

1001
01:16:32,103 --> 01:16:33,603
What do you do at a border crossing?

1002
01:16:33,923 --> 01:16:34,883
That was exactly what happened to them.

1003
01:16:35,243 --> 01:16:36,003
Yeah, yep.

1004
01:16:37,243 --> 01:16:38,663
Can't you say you're self-funding?

1005
01:16:41,743 --> 01:16:46,183
I mean, I have, I'm growing my vocabulary

1006
01:16:46,183 --> 01:16:48,223
of things to say to border agents.

1007
01:16:48,223 --> 01:16:49,563
but like seriously

1008
01:16:49,563 --> 01:16:52,923
like I'm giving of myself

1009
01:16:52,923 --> 01:16:54,883
freely to people I love

1010
01:16:54,883 --> 01:16:56,183
that's what I'm doing

1011
01:16:56,183 --> 01:16:58,383
for a purpose

1012
01:16:58,383 --> 01:16:59,063
yeah

1013
01:16:59,063 --> 01:17:03,583
it's amazing

1014
01:17:03,583 --> 01:17:05,383
when we just try to

1015
01:17:05,383 --> 01:17:07,303
live free

1016
01:17:07,303 --> 01:17:09,803
it's like the most obscure

1017
01:17:09,803 --> 01:17:11,683
it's somehow obscure

1018
01:17:11,683 --> 01:17:12,723
in this modern world

1019
01:17:12,723 --> 01:17:15,643
it's certainly

1020
01:17:15,643 --> 01:17:16,863
not the default

1021
01:17:17,323 --> 01:17:19,443
People are used to coercion.

1022
01:17:19,683 --> 01:17:21,583
And one of the things I noticed in the UK

1023
01:17:21,583 --> 01:17:24,183
asking people to help out with stuff

1024
01:17:24,183 --> 01:17:26,803
is they're conditioned to ask permission

1025
01:17:26,803 --> 01:17:28,363
at every step of the way.

1026
01:17:29,063 --> 01:17:31,603
They now don't fear taking one step

1027
01:17:31,603 --> 01:17:32,743
without asking permission.

1028
01:17:33,483 --> 01:17:34,603
And that's tragic.

1029
01:17:37,683 --> 01:17:40,723
Well, and I suspect for the next few,

1030
01:17:40,863 --> 01:17:42,923
now with the digital ID stuff that's coming,

1031
01:17:42,923 --> 01:17:45,023
they won't be able to press one key

1032
01:17:45,023 --> 01:17:46,143
without asking for permission,

1033
01:17:46,143 --> 01:17:47,243
let alone take a step.

1034
01:17:47,783 --> 01:17:47,903
Yeah.

1035
01:17:49,963 --> 01:17:53,323
Are you saying it's not going to get any better, Avi?

1036
01:17:54,023 --> 01:17:54,863
Not for a while.

1037
01:17:56,243 --> 01:17:58,043
I just don't, I don't see the path.

1038
01:17:58,643 --> 01:18:00,603
Yeah, there's going to have to be a breaking point

1039
01:18:00,603 --> 01:18:02,143
before a tipping point, I suppose.

1040
01:18:03,043 --> 01:18:03,283
Yeah.

1041
01:18:05,083 --> 01:18:07,063
So Shadrach, what else are you working on?

1042
01:18:07,063 --> 01:18:09,683
I mean, we've already talked about some incredible projects,

1043
01:18:09,863 --> 01:18:10,803
but anything else?

1044
01:18:10,803 --> 01:18:23,943
I think in general, I would, dear listeners, explore the second realm, start learning about parallel societies.

1045
01:18:24,263 --> 01:18:36,203
The more you can do on the Bitcoin side and the less you can contribute to the people who are trying to oppress and likely kill you, the better.

1046
01:18:36,203 --> 01:18:39,823
now's the time

1047
01:18:39,823 --> 01:18:41,303
know the difference

1048
01:18:41,303 --> 01:18:43,463
know the difference between

1049
01:18:43,463 --> 01:18:45,823
the first realm and the second realm

1050
01:18:45,823 --> 01:18:47,923
and you'll feel it in your heart

1051
01:18:47,923 --> 01:18:51,283
indeed they will

1052
01:18:51,283 --> 01:18:53,563
anything else Shadrach

1053
01:18:53,563 --> 01:18:55,763
anywhere you want to point folks to

1054
01:18:55,763 --> 01:18:57,603
how can they use

1055
01:18:57,603 --> 01:18:59,023
A to B if they wanted to

1056
01:18:59,023 --> 01:19:00,523
any of the other things you're working on

1057
01:19:00,523 --> 01:19:03,483
yeah yeah please check out A to B

1058
01:19:03,483 --> 01:19:04,563
it's a

1059
01:19:04,563 --> 01:19:24,763
There is no owner. I have a co-founder. I think I, you know, co-conspirator, I like to call her. But so, yeah, it's a A to Bitcoin dot IO, but the two is T O. So A T O Bitcoin dot IO.

1060
01:19:24,763 --> 01:19:32,223
So the front page is my presentation, and then at the bottom of the presentation is a link to the app.

1061
01:19:32,923 --> 01:19:34,043
Play around with it.

1062
01:19:35,483 --> 01:19:37,923
Again, this is not a company.

1063
01:19:38,143 --> 01:19:39,523
We just built it.

1064
01:19:39,943 --> 01:19:41,023
We're hosting it.

1065
01:19:42,063 --> 01:19:45,243
It will eventually be available for open source.

1066
01:19:46,103 --> 01:19:50,563
But, yeah, GZ did an amazing job.

1067
01:19:50,563 --> 01:19:54,043
it's using state machines

1068
01:19:54,043 --> 01:19:56,563
it uses end-to-end encryption

1069
01:19:56,563 --> 01:19:59,723
some really really innovative

1070
01:19:59,723 --> 01:20:03,283
stuff going on with Noster

1071
01:20:03,283 --> 01:20:07,223
GZ, is that GZ?

1072
01:20:07,663 --> 01:20:09,543
the one QW meant, Jesus

1073
01:20:09,543 --> 01:20:11,843
oh Jesus, GZ

1074
01:20:11,843 --> 01:20:14,103
yeah, Harvey mentioned

1075
01:20:14,103 --> 01:20:16,083
you call him GZ

1076
01:20:16,083 --> 01:20:18,563
your lord and savior, Avi

1077
01:20:18,563 --> 01:20:23,043
but amazing amazing

1078
01:20:23,043 --> 01:20:25,523
so grateful

1079
01:20:25,523 --> 01:20:27,943
awesome

1080
01:20:27,943 --> 01:20:31,503
actually any before we drop

1081
01:20:31,503 --> 01:20:33,223
Shadrach any

1082
01:20:33,223 --> 01:20:35,303
highlights from Nostovil

1083
01:20:35,303 --> 01:20:36,143
from last week

1084
01:20:36,143 --> 01:20:38,963
I'm going to say it again

1085
01:20:38,963 --> 01:20:40,263
meeting the

1086
01:20:40,263 --> 01:20:42,203
purple painter

1087
01:20:42,203 --> 01:20:44,703
what an amazing human being

1088
01:20:44,703 --> 01:20:46,543
instant

1089
01:20:46,543 --> 01:20:49,103
soul connection.

1090
01:20:50,443 --> 01:20:50,903
He is

1091
01:20:50,903 --> 01:20:53,263
one of us.

1092
01:20:53,783 --> 01:20:54,783
That was just a pleasure.

1093
01:20:55,183 --> 01:20:58,083
I could spend many hours with him.

1094
01:20:58,223 --> 01:20:59,343
Is that Bitcoin artist?

1095
01:20:59,343 --> 01:21:00,703
Is that the one that was doing

1096
01:21:00,703 --> 01:21:04,483
basically painting

1097
01:21:04,483 --> 01:21:06,343
the plebs?

1098
01:21:07,383 --> 01:21:07,623
Oh yeah.

1099
01:21:08,043 --> 01:21:08,523
Watercolor?

1100
01:21:08,923 --> 01:21:09,183
Yeah.

1101
01:21:09,883 --> 01:21:12,363
I actually bought one of his pieces.

1102
01:21:12,523 --> 01:21:13,963
I have it in my office here.

1103
01:21:13,963 --> 01:21:21,283
yeah i i love i love to support any kind of creativity um and it's uh yeah it's it's cool

1104
01:21:21,283 --> 01:21:23,683
that he did in person it was wonderful

1105
01:21:23,683 --> 01:21:34,803
awesome purple painter yes and i did get the painting from him uh which he made of me

1106
01:21:34,803 --> 01:21:43,083
obvi you didn't just fork it up i mean you could have maybe got a network a mesh uh travel network

1107
01:21:43,083 --> 01:21:45,723
to bring that piece to you.

1108
01:21:46,123 --> 01:21:47,203
It was in person, man.

1109
01:21:48,003 --> 01:21:48,843
Peer to peer.

1110
01:21:49,223 --> 01:21:50,203
True peer to peer.

1111
01:21:52,403 --> 01:21:54,463
I just love that Nostra

1112
01:21:54,463 --> 01:21:56,643
enables that kind of creativity

1113
01:21:56,643 --> 01:21:58,443
where you can just kind of find your lane

1114
01:21:58,443 --> 01:22:00,863
that caters to you

1115
01:22:00,863 --> 01:22:03,243
and people are receptive to it.

1116
01:22:03,603 --> 01:22:05,663
So those are those little stories

1117
01:22:05,663 --> 01:22:08,263
that are the pleb stories that I love.

1118
01:22:08,743 --> 01:22:08,903
Yeah.

1119
01:22:09,183 --> 01:22:11,463
Get out there, meet your local people,

1120
01:22:11,463 --> 01:22:13,543
be a pioneer

1121
01:22:13,543 --> 01:22:15,303
and

1122
01:22:15,303 --> 01:22:16,903
there's so much

1123
01:22:16,903 --> 01:22:18,623
get in a room with somebody

1124
01:22:18,623 --> 01:22:19,843
give them a big hug

1125
01:22:19,843 --> 01:22:23,083
the information flows

1126
01:22:23,083 --> 01:22:26,963
Awesome

1127
01:22:26,963 --> 01:22:28,223
well Shadrach

1128
01:22:28,223 --> 01:22:30,443
appreciate you taking the time

1129
01:22:30,443 --> 01:22:32,763
and educating us on these

1130
01:22:32,763 --> 01:22:34,963
incredible cypherpunk projects

1131
01:22:34,963 --> 01:22:37,003
I mean you truly are a cypherpunk

1132
01:22:37,003 --> 01:22:37,503
my friend

1133
01:22:37,503 --> 01:22:39,383
I don't know if you write code

1134
01:22:39,383 --> 01:22:42,363
but your intention

1135
01:22:42,363 --> 01:22:44,623
what you're putting out there

1136
01:22:44,623 --> 01:22:46,543
is probably some of the most

1137
01:22:46,543 --> 01:22:48,683
cypher-punky stuff that's happening

1138
01:22:48,683 --> 01:22:50,843
and thank you for the beautiful

1139
01:22:50,843 --> 01:22:53,763
whatever you call it at the beginning

1140
01:22:53,763 --> 01:22:55,763
it was literally in tears

1141
01:22:55,763 --> 01:22:58,123
you couldn't have put it any better

1142
01:22:58,123 --> 01:22:59,883
it's beautiful

1143
01:22:59,883 --> 01:23:02,043
the sermon

1144
01:23:02,043 --> 01:23:03,863
sermon, yes, yes

1145
01:23:03,863 --> 01:23:06,523
Avi eloquently speaks it too

1146
01:23:06,523 --> 01:23:07,203
yeah

1147
01:23:07,203 --> 01:23:09,543
music to my ears

1148
01:23:09,543 --> 01:23:11,843
excellent

1149
01:23:11,843 --> 01:23:13,883
and I appreciate shows like this

1150
01:23:13,883 --> 01:23:16,103
it's kind of like

1151
01:23:16,103 --> 01:23:17,323
the fire of my purpose

1152
01:23:17,323 --> 01:23:19,563
in the Bitcoin or

1153
01:23:19,563 --> 01:23:22,303
Noster space, it's really just freedom tech in general

1154
01:23:22,303 --> 01:23:22,703
it's

1155
01:23:22,703 --> 01:23:24,743
I got into

1156
01:23:24,743 --> 01:23:28,023
the allure of Bitcoin

1157
01:23:28,023 --> 01:23:29,743
was really at the cypherpunk level

1158
01:23:29,743 --> 01:23:31,683
and the privacy is

1159
01:23:31,683 --> 01:23:33,423
the heartbeat of it

1160
01:23:33,423 --> 01:23:35,383
but also just the

1161
01:23:35,383 --> 01:23:41,663
the permissionless system that, you know, everyone doesn't even know they yearn for it until they

1162
01:23:41,663 --> 01:23:48,083
start realizing that you don't need to ask for permission. And it's empowering and powerful.

1163
01:23:48,463 --> 01:23:54,963
And thanks for all the topics on the show, Shadrith. Yeah. And as a young father, I'm part

1164
01:23:54,963 --> 01:24:03,963
of the Bitcoin grandpas. So next time you're at Lake Satoshi, it's a big family. That's a bucket

1165
01:24:03,963 --> 01:24:10,843
list man i need to get him uh i mean we go camping uh you know every summer uh to escape the heat

1166
01:24:10,843 --> 01:24:16,203
here in phoenix so it's like almost every i mean i've even done shows from the campsite uh

1167
01:24:17,803 --> 01:24:24,523
during uh the last uh last season but uh he's ready man i need to get uh i need to fly into

1168
01:24:24,523 --> 01:24:31,483
michigan and um get some sort of a van out there and i'll even tent it i'm not i'm not afraid like

1169
01:24:31,483 --> 01:24:36,463
like Avi to use the restroom behind a tree.

1170
01:24:37,143 --> 01:24:41,583
To poop in a hole in the ground and use some dry leaves.

1171
01:24:42,163 --> 01:24:44,483
Yeah, borrow Avi's camper for my...

1172
01:24:46,603 --> 01:24:49,403
Yeah, not scared.

1173
01:24:49,643 --> 01:24:52,303
So that's, man, it's on the bucket list.

1174
01:24:52,703 --> 01:24:53,743
So, yeah, absolutely.

1175
01:24:54,283 --> 01:24:54,923
Well, thank you.

1176
01:24:54,963 --> 01:24:55,623
I love you guys.

1177
01:24:55,723 --> 01:24:58,663
I really appreciate what you do and keep it up.

1178
01:24:59,423 --> 01:25:00,123
Yeah, mutual.

1179
01:25:00,123 --> 01:25:01,783
So I respect you now.

1180
01:25:02,623 --> 01:25:03,143
Cool.

1181
01:25:03,663 --> 01:25:04,083
All right.

1182
01:25:04,403 --> 01:25:05,343
Anything else, Avi?

1183
01:25:06,003 --> 01:25:07,383
No, that was it for me.

1184
01:25:08,603 --> 01:25:09,003
Okay.

1185
01:25:09,163 --> 01:25:09,603
Wow.

1186
01:25:09,903 --> 01:25:14,463
Thank you, Pioneer Chain, Club Chain listeners.

1187
01:25:14,883 --> 01:25:18,723
If you enjoyed this as much as we enjoy you,

1188
01:25:19,003 --> 01:25:21,083
please consider hitting the subscribe button.

1189
01:25:21,083 --> 01:25:25,343
Make your presence felt on Fountain, Noster,

1190
01:25:25,663 --> 01:25:27,863
anywhere the zap button is present.

1191
01:25:27,863 --> 01:25:30,883
we appreciate you and we'll see you next week

1192
01:25:30,883 --> 01:25:32,543
goodbye