Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses
on the intersection of NOSTER and Bitcoin protocols.
Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current
thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,
doers, and plebs.
All right, we are live.
Welcome, gentle pioneers, to the lightning-laced airwaves.
Today is Thursday, the 30th of October, and it is 12.59pm on the East Coast of the United States.
At the time of recording, this is episode 135 of Pleb Chain Radio, and we have a fun one ahead of you.
Shadrach, cypherpunk, Nostrich, podcast listening legend, among several other things, joins us to
talk about all of that. And a reminder, folks, if you are listening to this show on Apple or Spotify,
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And QW, you've been paying attention to Bitcoin and Noster culture in the last week.
What have you witnessed?
I'd like to first ask, because last time we spoke, last show, it was the pregame.
I mean, it was the day before Nosterville 3.0.
Any feedback, any enlightening moments, any grand themes that were carried throughout that day?
Well, there were grand conversations.
it was a fantastic event
from my perspective, QW
there were about
30 odd people
we had about
4 or 5 talks
and then we rolled into
the Valley for Value music event
so
all in all
a super high signal event
I got to meet Shadrach, our guest
for the first time there, it was a great meeting
I got to meet our friend
Richard Greaser from The Bugle
who happened to be there and as I mentioned
the last time, QW, he looks and
sounds exactly as he does
online.
Joe Martin? Did you meet
Joe Martin? I met Joe
again, yes. I met him a few times.
It was great to see Joe
again. Very, very busy man
recording his new album, as is
Ainsley, our guest, last week.
Do you
think he traveled the furthest
to be there in Nashville?
Well, he's in the States
recording his album.
Yeah, so, but, yeah, obviously.
But anybody that surprised you
that showed up?
No, I think it was all expected people,
but I got to meet a lot of new folks
who I hadn't met before,
only interacted with on Nostra,
so that was great.
It's great to put a voice to a nymph
right a face to a voice and a voice to a name yes did anybody say oh i now that after they meet you
and they see your face you're like well and i now i get why he does radio
they did say uh well qw is a lot uglier than i thought
ah that's that's the way it should be uh so culture corner i mean obviously uh nostraville
3.0 just finished up. The experience in real time, meeting people that are into the
decentralized internet of today that is Nostra, that's beautiful. Next up is BitFest. So anybody
in the Manchester area, that'd be across the pond for us. November 21st through the 23rd,
Uh, there's going to be Nostra Shire, uh, there.
So, um, that's, uh, that's the next big event.
And that would be Nostra adjacent, uh, and of course, Bitcoin adjacent.
So it always seems to work out that, uh, you can do, uh, two birds with one stone.
Uh, so super, uh, I mean, I, I, I, I just don't fly across the pond.
Uh, and one day I will, I'd love to go see Prague.
I'd love to go to, uh, Madeira.
There's a few that I just, I want to see the, I want to go to Czech Republic.
And obviously that'd be Prague, right, Avi?
But that the cypherpunk citadel there really, really meets my fancy.
But I do have an announcement, Avi, something we've talked about and something that's moving in my life.
My time in mental capital is allocated to four channels in my life.
Number one, priority one would be fatherhood.
Priority two would be husband.
Priority three is family.
But along with family is my family business.
So that would be my third priority.
Fourth is purpose.
So purpose would be my creative mindset, my purpose to bring freedom to my son in the future.
Purpose would be Noster.
Purpose would be Bitcoin.
So at the current time, my family business, as many may know, I've mentioned it here, it's going into the fourth generation of family and the torch is getting passed.
It does in due time. So that time has come. This privilege and responsibility will require me to sacrifice time and maybe take away from some of my, maybe my fourth priority, that purpose.
So in the near term, currently, we're just talking about the month of November as the dust settles with this transition.
I'm going to be stepping back from the weekly co-host into a more fluid role as I settle into the new job.
I want to make it clear, though, I am not leaving.
I'm just taking time to adjust.
However, I wanted any of the loyal listeners or anybody in general, Nostriges, my friends, almost family with a lot of you guys and girls.
But I want you guys to know up front.
So if I'm not here for two shows, I certainly don't want you to think I'm quitting on the purpose because the purpose is an absolute priority in my life.
I'm just going to adjust my mental capital and my time to give me a stronger future and a stronger allocation of purpose in the future.
So that's it.
You got any questions on that, Avi?
I'll be watching the clock.
but it's it's kind of weird because um listening to a club chain radio show that i'm not in um
normally i'm i'm it's it's it's like you know it's just a state of consciousness we're here
we're doing it um it's much different when you're um listening to it uh versus actually participating
in it. This is kind of our baby. It's our, you know, it's our weekly thing we do. I mean,
we're at a hundred and I don't know, what is this? The one 35th. So it's, it's been a lot of weeks.
And if you actually stretch that out, you know, my son, he's going on three. He's basically a
young dictator at this point. He's, he's ripping me apart as far as my time, but it's, it's crazy
that just a couple months after he was born, we started this.
So really looking forward to those years, Avi, where maybe he's five
and he's not beating at my door while I do this,
and my mind can be 100% dedicated.
Don't run the clock down too fast, he does.
Trust me.
You will miss those years between three and five.
So just blink and you miss it.
I mean, I remember my son was at that age, yeah, and he was a handful too.
And then next thing I know, he's 15.
So yeah, enjoy it.
Challenging as it can be at times.
But I do want to mention, because it's easy to give up on purpose in life when times get tough, things happen.
You're like, well, I'll just quit this thing.
And I don't think that's ever the right choice.
I think purpose is one of those pillars you internalize that make you tick.
so you know i think we're doing this right i'm i i just i think creativity it's like giving up
artistic uh art or music or something because responsibility got too hard um i don't think
it's good in the long run it doesn't make a healthy human uh and i'm looking forward to
this fluid transition so we'll be good excellent well like i said qw i will be watching the clock
before we bring our guests on i do have a sermon
and the sermon is empires run on paperwork and passwords we run on keys proof and a happy grin
that says let's settle this in sats now bitcoin and nostr aren't just code their posture they tilt
your spine a few degrees towards sovereignty and suddenly the world stops feeling like a
stops feeling like a mall and starts feeling like a bazaar again now picture this you want to move
a package without donating your home address to five databases and a marketing intern named kyle
Instead, you spin up an onion-routed courier circuit.
A buyer posts a need on Nasta signed with their pub key.
Couriers within your web of trust,
a reputation earned through simple proofs of past deliveries, respond.
The package hops from hand to hand like a whispered secret at a village feast.
Each hop knows only the next hop, never the final door.
When it lands, the buyer releases a lightning payment, sats arc across the mesh, and everyone goes home a little richer and a lot less surveilled.
Not because we begged permission but because we used primitives that do not ask Or take art for that matter the original peer medium
A painter lifts color into form, a buyer feels seen,
and somewhere along the line, a gallery, a processor, and a platform develop very expensive opinions.
now the artists post post the piece on nostor with a high resolution proof of some sort and
a signed note that binds image to identity a collector replies they settle price and sats
maybe stream a small deposit as the frame is built the delivery happens through our
onion routed corridor and provenance is anchored by signatures and time no escrow guards no charge
back ghosts, no account under review limbo, just two humans transacting with dignity while the
protocol holds the trust that used to leak into middlemen. Third parties were training wheels for
an age that forgot how to balance. We outsource trust because we outsource memory and courage.
Bitcoin brings back finality, which brings back honesty. Noster brings back voice,
which brings back reputation. Together they make a street again. Streets have witnesses,
not moderators. They have neighbors, not users. They have favors that become friendships and
receipts that are just public keys with the story. Will it be messy sometimes? Of course.
So is bread. And yet civilizations form around ovens. We don't fix the world with a dashboard
and a terms of service update.
We'll fix it with small,
unfancy transactions
that remind us who we are.
A handoff, a handshake,
a signature,
a payment that clears in a heartbeat.
Meet space commerce
where privacy is the default
and skin in the game is the rule.
Sovereignty is not a slogan.
It's a habit.
And today, we practice.
And with that,
So, Kedabu, I think it's time to bring on our guest, Shadrach. Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, good sir.
Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a true honor.
No, it's an honor for us. And I think our audience will realize that as well as your story progresses, Shadrach.
So, for folks who might be unfamiliar with you, tell us a little bit about yourself.
currently unwritten story
I grew up in Austin, Texas
and yeah, I've been a Bitcoiner for a long time
prior to that in a former life in my youth
I was anxious to get on the college
Vax VMS, get my first email in the early 90s
get on the mailing lists
life
happened.
I appreciate your
honesty and integrity,
QW, talking about your transition.
I had
my children and kind of
definitely lost my purpose, so
this is an amazing
time to be bringing
up kids. I think
our purpose is much clearer than it's
ever been, and
there's a lot more of us than there were
in the early 90s.
And yeah, so fast forward, kids get old, I rediscover myself, I discover my goals of creating communities and societies that live without coercion.
And I start putting that into practice in my deeds and my words.
Love it.
And when, well, actually, I was about to ask you about Nostra, but your bio on Nostra says you're a Bitcoin bus driver.
Can I ask what drew you to Bitcoin?
You know, just what is it about that really stuck?
I'd followed the different money movements, Liberty Dollar.
I'd pretty much given up on it.
And then I should have found Bitcoin earlier, but I found Monero first.
And that was kind of on an ethical level.
And I mean, I believed in the idea of private peer-to-peer money.
And then I think it was really reading the Bitcoin standard was just an amazing,
like massive light bulb moment about, I mean, you can only have digital security or digital
scarcity once. So that kind of showed me that anything that wasn't Bitcoin may be a tool,
but overall it's going to be taking a lot of capital and intelligent people away from
the core mission, which is around Bitcoin, but it's really what we do peer to peer.
It's how we peer-to-peer everything, shake hands, make verbal agreements, kind of the old common law stuff.
Money is a great tool, but how we deal with each other is what really matters.
It's almost like the white paper had been titled Peer-to-Peer, electronic cash system.
Amazing, isn't it?
I think that's a very important, I mean, that's honestly what you just said there.
The peer-to-peer aspect of it is honestly, I think, one of the more magical moments when you send your first transaction to your friend or you buy your first leg of lamb from Rev HODL.
You know, all those little moments, it really, and I encourage anybody that thinks it's NGU and digital gold, go try and get activated locally and feel that.
Feel what Bitcoin can do on the peer-to-peer level.
So I just wanted to add context.
I really appreciate that, man.
So Bitcoin bus driver, tell us all about it.
I love driving.
I've been driving around the country, going to different meetups, visiting different citadels.
And it really kind of struck me that it's a lot more fun if you pick somebody up along the way.
And Orange Pill App has been great.
We reach out to each other there.
You know, it's a proximity thing.
So I can, hey, I'm in Scottsdale, Arizona.
You know, anybody need to go to Vegas?
And so I'd been doing that and as well as moving different things around for other peer-to-peer sellers.
And it kind of evolved into, well, we should really have a system where rather than single-purpose trips, single-purpose packages,
we start really using what we have, which is communication.
We have incentives to make this even more fun, more profitable.
And ultimately, what it really kind of is stuck with is every time we have to make a conversion from Bitcoin into fiat, we are feeding that system.
So if we're using UPS to do all of our deliveries, we're converting Bitcoin into fiat and giving it to UPS.
And that's become harder and harder for me to handle, I guess.
I recently was let go of my fiat job
so it's become all the more apparent
that I don't want to spend my Bitcoin
on what we call the first realm
I want to keep it
if I can't use it in my circular economy
I need to grow my circular economy
to where I can use it to buy handmade wool clothes
where I can get all of my groceries.
I love RevHodl.
My lamb guy near me, we opened a lightning channel.
So I have a massive lightning channel.
So every time I buy from him,
it literally just goes between our channel.
There's just so much we can do with Bitcoin.
And then Noster just...
Yeah, I don't know if you want to ask me any questions,
but I was on Noster from pretty early,
and I could go on and on about how that reminds me of early days of IRC.
Do so.
You create a...
You'll go on and on.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, in the early 90s, we had dial-up modems.
We had a couple cable modems started coming out in Austin,
and we were setting up IRC nodes on everyone's server in their house.
And then we had a VPN that went between all of our houses.
So each of us had our own subnet,
and we would have our IRC client running on our computer,
and it would be broadcasting to our local node.
Those went to all the other nodes at all of our different houses,
and it felt amazing.
It felt like the freest, it felt like pure signal.
And as soon as I saw the model of Noster and then throwing in PGP, which again, we used PGP from the 90s, but it was always a problem.
And, you know, everyone knew when to use it when they really needed to use it, but it wasn't integrated into anything.
So seeing those two pieces come together in Noster, I've never been more excited in my life for the future.
Now, you'd mentioned friend of the show, Rev Hoddle.
Real quick, Avi, just a quick.
Why did you choose Scottsdale, Arizona when you said you were bus driving?
Pick someone up in Scottsdale and go to Vegas.
I have family there and we actually have a bar there, my family.
And I want to turn it into a Bitcoin bar and kind of a hub.
Weird things also, I noticed people at the bar are these transportation brokers
and they literally sit at the bar and drink and make money because they get something crazy like 40 of every delivery by just being the broker So some kind of significance in Scottsdale
Interesting. Yeah, I'm in Phoenix, so let me know where I can help at any time.
Sure, sure.
I thought maybe you were lighting a candle to Hal Finney at his cryogenic lab there.
Ah, nice, nice.
You could join his
Courier Network, which we'll talk about
in a second. Absolutely.
My new purpose.
So carry on, I'll be sorry.
You'd mentioned Shadrach
Rev Hoddle, who's been on the show
was it Naki W three times?
Definitely two, maybe
three times. And always
fantastic conversations with him.
He's a moving target, right? He's always up to
something. It's like a new show every time. Yeah, for sure. So he has this Mesh Tadel and presumably
you're part of that, correct? That network. Okay. So for, no, for, unfortunately the last time he
was here, I didn't say, can you define or explain Mesh Tadel for folks who might be unfamiliar?
So I'm going to pin you down, Shadrach, since you're here as Rev Hoddle's proxy, explain to
folks who are listeners who are unfamiliar. What is the MeshTadel?
It originated from Citadel and Mesh networks. So it's the idea that we can create a Mesh
network of homesteaders, small Citadels, large Citadels. We can create communication channels
between them. We can create monetization between them and grow the circular economy on a physical
and a digital level, with the ultimate goal being to have a backup to the internet.
But it's more than just a digital mesh, right? It's not mesh in the literal sense of what,
well, at least what it's literally evolved to mean in the last 10 or 20 years,
the mesh netter, which is in some sense a technology specification.
This sounds something more fundamental, right?
It's a philosophical mesh of sorts, isn't it?
It is, yeah, yeah.
But it has its physical layer in that, I mean, we do meet each other.
We do move around among each other.
and again ultimately we would like to have our own digital sovereignty on the transport layer
both physical and digital yeah yeah you're you're teasing the best part of the show
but let's not because i do want to talk about that meat space transport layer is just such a critical
privacy vulnerability that we face,
but just more broadly on the mesh itself, right?
Do you or anyone in the mesh at all
fear that at some point
the powers that be are going to get uncomfortable
that people are so free?
And what happens in that scenario?
I think to some level,
people expect it.
It's in the literature
that it will happen.
It's about meantime to harassment.
There's a lot we can do to stay safe,
but at some point we have to
live with integrity.
and then see what happens.
We should start getting lawyers on retainer.
But yeah, yeah.
It's expected.
But just for everyone's clarity,
there is nothing,
I mean, this is perfectly legal stuff, right?
These are consenting adults
who are living a voluntarist lifestyle, essentially, correct?
Absolutely.
There is no coercion.
There's no, everything is legal.
And yeah, I don't, we have to stand up for our, you know, our rights.
They're called inalienable, but it's actually alienable.
No one can take a lean on my life.
Is that the actual etymology, Shadrach?
That it's not, the root isn't alien, it's Aileen.
Look it up.
It's something that I've held in my mind since I first heard it, but that was 30 years ago.
It makes more sense to me than alien.
I mean, yeah, you get a lien on your house.
Everyone understands that.
Yeah.
How many you got now?
Like four or five, Avi?
Lien's or houses?
I have a mesh network of liens across all of my houses.
All my houses.
Yeah.
But anything more to add to that?
Or Avi, do you have any more questions on that?
I think, I mean, for me, Mesh-Tadel, just looking at it, I think of, you know, if I didn't know really the details of it, to me, the label just says, I just think of like the Mesh-Tastic networks, the Lo-Fi or LoRa network, and then like a Citadel.
So the distribution of citadels that are commonly bonded through the communication of MeshTastic or LORA.
But, you know, is that correct?
Yeah, I mean, that's definitely part of the mesh part.
But again, there's a digital overlay to the physical side of it.
They both should be meshes. We can't have single points of failure. We need to be able to route around challenges and make sure that people get what they need.
and and and you know that's where things get interesting right we're talking about stuff like
laura and other technologies these are digital uh substrates for connectivity and that's great
like it's an incredibly important but when we're talking about physical outposts right i mean you
might have a homestead where you have lamb maybe 100 miles away or 200 miles away there's there's
someone who has something else,
and there needs to be some sovereign way of,
sovereign and privacy-preserving way of transacting.
And that brings me to the example
that I touched upon in the sermon,
which is this idea of an onion-routed courier service.
And, you know, Shadrach, when you say citadels,
we are essentially talking about
these sovereign physical outposts
that are, you know, separated.
They could be separated by hundreds,
maybe even thousands of miles, right?
But there needs to be a physical layer of connectivity between them
that allows for the physical transport of goods.
Well, goods, not, yeah.
I was about to say goods and services,
but I think it makes more sense in the context of goods.
So I know what the Onion-routed network, sort of like Tor, right?
But in the physical realm,
was perhaps a hypothetical scenario that I laid out.
Well, talk about A to B, right, which is this courier network that's connecting these citadels that it makes up the connective tissue of the meshed inel.
How does that work?
Sure. I think the easiest way to look at it is, I mean, there's meetups in every city.
so if you have
say one or two people
from a meetup
that go to
you know
a neighboring meetup
while they're there
they can pick up
a box of goods
from that meetup
bring it back to theirs
and then
say you've got a
box of tallow soap
at one meetup
you pick it up
you bring it to your meetup
and then the people
that come to your meetup
can get their soap
and take it home
that's the
that's the truly
peer-to-peer side of it
Now, if somebody was not able to make it to the meetup, you might pick it up and bring it to them.
So at that point, we can start adding in logic and incentives to make that whole process smoother.
So how many bars of soap do you need to get to the Atlanta meetup?
What's going to happen to them when they get there?
Will someone take custody of them and then help in the distribution of them?
And these are all just ways that we can do things ourselves without having to rely on trusted middlemen.
Let's talk about a slightly more involved scenario than that.
We obviously have merchants on Nostra, a handful of them.
There's Leatherman, there's Soap Miner, there's Great Gee.
I think a couple of others, forgive me for forgetting the names.
And it's great, right?
We have this sort of nascent commerce that's growing on Noster.
Soon, I mean, there's already a store, right?
The Shopster, and then in Nosterville, we had Eric F.J. present Conduit,
which is going to be another decentralized store.
And Plebeian Market.
Of course, Chief Monkey, shout out, great guy.
Plebian Market out in the UK.
So, yes, you have the two that exist today,
Shopster and Plebian Market,
and then Conduit potentially coming
in the next month or two.
And because of Nostra's intrapabilities,
it's likely going to be just one event
that gets broadcast,
and then these, quote-unquote,
storefront clients list all the items,
which is great, right?
And we could say, like, you know,
the early adopters, Leatherman, Greggie,
soap miner. We know them, we trust them, we zap them, and we give them our address, and
they ship it to our address. But let's sort of extend this to a scenario in which these marketplaces
get very successful. And there's several merchants who are selling their goods on
these marketplaces on Nostra. And you as an end consumer might be wary of sharing your address
with some of these merchants.
If for nothing else then on principle alone right And there is a possibility where this courier network can be used as an onion routing network right
So courier A picks up a package from the originator, from the seller, gives it to courier B, right?
So courier A only knows courier B's address.
Courier B then takes it to courier C, right?
And then Korea C gives it to you, but Korea C doesn't necessarily know that you're the destination.
They might think you're just another stopping point on this journey, right?
Sort of how lightning routing works, the Tor network works.
Is that something that is in consideration for A to B?
Absolutely.
So to take it kind of reverse, as the purchaser, you could put in the end pub of your delivery guy.
And this is someone you know personally.
He knows where you live and he goes to the local meetups.
So that person could then be the end point of the chain.
And then what it would rely on is a system of nodes.
So you would have the different people who, say, went between his meetup and the other meetup.
That would be one of the chains.
And then, yes, when the actual order is placed for delivery, you would know all the hops in between would be onion routed.
So only the next person would know where he was taking it to next.
So I'm trying to do this with, I'm calling them meetup ambassadors.
but you might have, like Rev Hoddle goes to different meetups.
So say he signs up to be a meetup ambassador between two of the Michigan meetups.
So now we can put him down as that particular link.
And then if somebody ordered something that was able to be taken all the way to that end pub,
then it would go along that route.
So it might take a little bit longer, but it would definitely get to you.
And all of this, of course, does introduce cost into it, right?
Like, I mean, let's say you try to ship something from California to New York.
Unlikely that it's going to be one or two careers.
It's probably going to be a string of 10.
And obviously they need to be fed or at least their labor needs to be compensated.
Sure.
So clearly this is not a cheap alternative to USPS or UPS.
It could be.
It depends on if it's something like distributing tallow soap among lots of different meetups.
I mean, just taking a dozen bars to each meetup, if you had 12 buyers at each site, you could significantly reduce the shipping cost.
and as well
so besides the
the A to B I would say is
will look more like a last
mile delivery
and behind the scenes we've got
a whole network of nodes
that are storing
and transporting goods
for online sellers
in the Bitcoin Noster
ecosystem
and then the question
there is also the broad question
here, Shadrach, around trust, right?
Like there is going to be a network of couriers
who are shepherding the package from A to B, right?
There's, I mean, A and B are not contiguous,
discrete points.
There's potentially, like I said,
in the California to New York example,
there could be 20 things in between.
Yeah.
How does that, how do you know that the courier one
is not going to run off with your package
or Korea 2 or anyone in the chain?
So the ideas behind that are using insurance.
So we kind of wait each shipment.
So if, say, somebody's taking half a Bitcoin worth of stuff,
that needs to be insured because we have to basically replace
everything that was lost as best we can. So now if I'm the driver for that package,
I may self-insure that, but that requires me to post half a Bitcoin as collateral.
I may make a thousand dollars or, you know, I should do everything in Bitcoin, but you know,
I make an amount on that delivery. If I can't stake the collateral myself, then there will be
a pool of people who want to, say, five people want to contribute to that delivery, and then
they will get a portion of the delivery fee. So there will be, for the larger, especially
interstate loads and things, there will be some form of collateralized insurance.
There is a, see, this brings up a question, Shadrach, which is, I understand the need for
insurance, but it sounds like a fiat solution to a cypherpunk effort. Can this be solved
on web of trust and reputation alone? I don't think so. With the biggest deliveries I do,
this came up right away. And the thing is, if I, if I receive the goods and then something happens
along the way, there's the producer and the receiver have lost out. Um, so there has to be
a way to mitigate that. Um, and, and things happen. So I, I do, it's something I've struggled
with as well. But fundamentally, like with auto insurance, I want my 20-year-old children to be
able to have some mechanism where they can do damage and be able to make that person right,
even if they don't have $30,000. Now, my children should be able to stake Bitcoin,
maybe with many other people in the community. And now we have this pool of Bitcoin that can be used
if somebody has an accident. That's how insurance was designed to be. And if you look at the original
fire insurance out of Philadelphia, it was a community thing. Everyone pitched in. And if
somebody's house burned down, it got rebuilt. So the idea of insurance is not, it's not a bad thing.
I don't think insurance is fiat. I think we've been using insurance as fiat. We've financialized
it. We've made it into its own package with bonds and requirements, capital requirements,
and all these things which are completely unnecessary with Bitcoin.
and where so does web of trust play a role in in this network though sure so again um who's going
to ensure my huge load of you know i've got two tons of ground beef um if i'm the best driver out
there then people will want to stake a portion of their bitcoin on my delivery because they are more
likely to get paid out. And the best people out there and the most trustworthy people out there
will be getting the complicated, the high value, the high security jobs.
And make money and be able to make more Bitcoin on it because of that.
And how would this trust be calculated?
Or how are you doing it today?
Sure, sure.
Good question.
So we don't know.
I was hoping to get Grapevine integrated in this week,
but we ran out of time.
And then the Freedom Tech people have come up with some other ones.
it was published, I think.
Yeah, it was a Sunday while we were at Nosterville.
They published those specs.
So that's a simple one that uses existing Noster information.
And then Grapevine wants to add a layer of,
because I trust you, that increases the trust,
like a kind of a web, more of the web of trust type of thing.
And then highly configurable.
grapevine looks amazing i'm super excited to integrate that but so yeah when you're selecting
say three people say they'll pick up your package you'll be able to see those three people what
their reputation is another score will be how many deliveries they've done and then we may add some
kind of a rating system but i don't i don't really like stars and i think a lot of that can be gamed
so it's a work in progress
yeah I think the one that came out
Jesus right he
I think it's his name
it's pronounced Jesus
but it's written GZUUUS
or something on Nostra
it's a context VM
right
they've come out with
when we were out in Nostraville
they launched that
so that seems pretty cool
yeah and that'll be a really easy one
to put in because you can just query their server with an npub and get a score back
every show we do almost every show probably for the last i don't know 20 30 shows we've talked
about web of trust obvi it it seems to be the the the big uh the big movement um as we approach
year, three or four of Noster,
kind of locking down the web of trust aspect.
And it seems to be all these ideas have some layer of web of trust
that's going to be needed.
I just think it's, yeah, I know that was a big theme in Nosterville.
You want to talk about that, Avi?
Well, look, I think web of...
All the way down to your health.
Remind me of the name.
Nosfabrica.
Nosfabrica, there you go.
Which we are broadening to web of trust now, QW,
because what we ran into,
and I touched upon this on the show we had with David Strahan,
who Shadrach mentioned Grapevine.
David's the creator of Grapevine.
Look, the question of trust in a truly decentralized and transparent network is, to me, one of the foundational cypherpunk problems.
How do you trust a piece of software? How do you trust someone you're buying something from with your address?
The questions go on and on. In a network, how do you trust a piece of software?
where you're looking for a doctor, how do you know the person who's saying they're a doctor
is a good doctor? First of all, is a doctor, period. And then once you know that they are a
doctor, how do you know they're a good doctor? And the merchant you're transacting with,
are they reliable? It's a truly foundational problem. And the easiest solution is to completely
centralize the way Apple does with the App Store. How do you trust a piece of software that is not
going to contain viruses and malware and ransomware and what have you.
Well, Apple centralizes everything.
They have their developer certification program.
They vet every piece of content.
And of course, they use an incredibly heavy hand.
And you see Dahmer's getting rejected for your safety, right, QW, because it had zaps
in it.
I'm just happy they keep me safe.
That's, you know, I feel very safe.
But this is what happens, right?
trust is a very difficult problem in a distributed network.
And the easiest solution is to completely centralize
and create gatekeepers who grant you,
who you're essentially renting out that trust.
So the fact that it's coming into the fore,
and it has been in the last one year,
but it seems to be picking up steam,
these conversations around web of trust,
is because this is the zeitgeist.
I think people have realized that NOSTA is at the point where, yes, maybe on the social network side, there's not, you know, maybe the conversations are getting a bit lame or they're drying up a little bit.
It's, I mean, just a cycle in my mind.
But in so many other ways, NOSTA is ready to explode, I think.
But without a meaningful web of trust layer, I don't think that's going to happen.
And that's why you have great products like Vertex, which provides these trust scores.
You have GrapeRank, which is truly open, right?
Vertex is like, you kind of have to trust Vertex to deliver the score.
GrapeRank using trusted assertions, NIP85, it's all open.
You can see for yourself what's happening.
And then Jesus came up with his trust score over the weekend.
And there will be others.
And this is the zeitgeist because we need to solve this problem before we can have music curation.
How do you know the music you're listening to on Wave Lake is an AI slop?
I mean, at this point, almost all of it is.
But how do you know a real human is making that?
And how do you know that it's something you ought to be listening to?
So, yeah, I think a lot of these threads are converging.
And I suspect 2026 will be the year of Web of Trust.
I agree.
What are you seeing just on this topic?
I know it's a bit of a small sidetrack from the transport layer.
Oh, no, this is super important.
I think I see it maybe a little bit different
because I've left my, I don't know,
Bitcoin maxi, I want to say like third cycle phase and kind of moved into the full feral.
You know, I'm ready to really get into this.
I'm connecting with a lot of different communities that aren't just Bitcoin and Noster.
And the ideas of Web of Trust have to include, say, an eco village in California,
different kinds of migrant workers.
I mean, a lot of Bitcoiners would love to hop in a van
and go pick grapes for Ben Justman.
How do we integrate this web of trust?
Kind of, I see it more from location specifics.
So we have different regions of the country
who are really good at doing different things.
We've got areas where we've got great ranches.
We've got great wine. We've got great produce.
And how do we create a system where, you know, because I'm trusted at this main location, say a meetup area,
and because I've done different work at different ecovillages,
that means that I can, say, work in a more private area with a higher level of trust.
because I've built that up over time by putting in my proof of work.
That's really what we need to see.
This isn't going to be a digital-only software solution.
We have to see this as a genuine human being problem that we're working on.
Absolutely.
Absolutely. So, Shadrach, let's talk about, I suspect this was a somewhat hypothetical conversation you and I were having when we met in person in Nashville.
And we were talking about another meat space area where it's just so invasive from a privacy standpoint, which is rental cars.
Right. If you are in a new town and you want to get around, you've got to basically go through a rectal exam before you get that car.
the amount of information that you have to give.
And you had some ideas on how this could be a light touch,
maybe no KYC network, again, based on North Stoke.
Do you want to share that idea?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, in theory, there could be somebody, say, in the Czech Republic
who had two or three travel vans, and I fly over, I have a good reputation,
I stake some or all of my Bitcoin into a multi-sig wallet to back up the cost of the vehicle.
And then he hands me the keys.
I have a driver's license.
I went to got my international driver's license, whatever.
That's on me if I get pulled over.
But he has a vehicle that's licensed under local regulations.
he can follow that as closely or as non-closely.
I would like that to be disclosed, obviously.
But, yeah, in theory, I could just go and just stream SATs
as I drive around Europe in a travel van
rather than having to KYC with one of these
overpriced, undervalued travel van places.
Yeah. You hear that, QW? No KYC rental cars.
We can be digital nomads, Avi, just like a lot of our guests have been over the years.
Just take our van and you can park it down by the river like you've always dreamed of, Avi.
It wouldn't be our van. It'll be someone else's van.
That's the neat part.
I live in someone else's van down by the river.
And it's important because, I mean, if somebody has three travel vans or several cars,
as Bitcoiners, we can be leasing a lot of things because we have the ability to post collateral.
So rather than $5,000 down so much a month to lease a car, we could just say,
hey, I'll stake the Bitcoin. Let me drive it for $100,000 a month.
Now, this is a hypothetical conversation at this point, right, Shadrach?
Is there something like this in practice today?
Maybe.
Okay.
But probably not.
Probably not.
It's unlikely.
Yeah.
Who would do that?
It's a nice dream.
Speaking of dreams.
It's amazing what ideas can be unlocked peer-to-peer.
And I think that's the foundation there.
But speaking of Dream, Shadrach, and another one that's definitely not going to get unlocked.
But let's just talk about this use case, which is, so we talked about how intrusive this rental vehicle system is.
Something that's even more intrusive is traveling across borders.
Or, you know what, let's even set aside international for a second.
Even domestic travel from New York to California,
yes, you can sit in a car for however long,
for 50 hours if you wanted.
It's bad for your back.
It's inefficient, right?
Or you can get on a plane and fly.
But of course, getting on a plane and flying
involves having to deal with all sorts of unsavory characters
under the name of your protection.
Again, we were having this hypothetical conversation about a system that would be able to route
around that as well.
Would you like to talk about that?
Yeah I think private airfields when I was contemplating the rental car ideas I came in contact with a private airfield who when you land your plane there they have a car and it just you know it licensed it legal And you just you know
drop off your plane and hop in the car and you, you know, drive around, hang out wherever you are
until your plane's ready, like for repairs and stuff. And so that kind of, that gave me the idea
that there could be a network of private airfields
where you kind of go the opposite direction.
You show up in your car and you hop in a plane
and you get taken to the next stop.
And it just seemed like a perfect fit.
Now, let's just...
I remember Nostra Valley 1.0, our conversation,
I think there was one pleb that actually flew there, I think, in their own plane.
I don't know why I remember that, but it just reminds me of that.
There was, and I was at Noster Valley 1.0, so I did meet y'all.
I may have been part of that conversation, and that may have been some inspiration.
That's why it kind of rings a bell with me.
I'm like, man, that's actually pretty cool.
I've had a few customers over my time, old, old, old people that like this old guy that lived by himself.
He he just flies on plane from here to Illinois, you know, anytime he wanted to.
And you're like, oh, that's that's pretty.
That's pretty cool, man.
Just fly your own plane over there real quick.
No big deal.
Yeah.
And that's kind of why I wanted to bring up the different groups, because there's a lot of people out there who are very sovereign and are not into Bitcoin.
and Noster. I would say especially the boomers, but they're getting old. They don't have the
community that they hoped they would have. And they really, really appreciate young people who
are interested in what they're doing. And there's a lot of crossover out there. I think don't sleep
on the boomers yet. A lot of them are sitting on their homesteads with piles of gold, wondering
what to do with their last 10 or 20 years.
How to sell the top.
Yeah, this guy actually, he flew his plane like you'd drive your car.
He'd just by himself, just fly over to his other house in Illinois.
I've never heard of that before.
I was like, wow, that's really interesting.
Growing up in this TSA world,
you just don't think about the other side of how it used to be
or what kind of flights you can actually do because you're so just, I don't know,
you're conditioned to this security and safety world.
Sure. And there's a lot of potential on the sea as well.
There's Bitcoiners who have yachts and there's Bitcoiners who like to sail.
And, you know, grab a few bags of green beans while you're down in Central America
and bring them on back to Baltimore.
Yeah, the sea's an interesting one.
You go on a cruise or something, and at a certain point you hit one line in the water,
and all of a sudden the casino's open.
It's like these different worlds, these different laws, all by these imaginary lines.
It goes back to the movie Blow, when he's trying to plead his case about imaginary lines.
But I think that scene was awesome.
But yeah, it's interesting. I mean, there's a lot of opportunity at all these junctures.
Shadrach, we've talked about, I mean, just on the topic of the sea, there is this notion of seasteading. Is there a seastead plan for the Mestadel?
though? Not that we've talked about, but there's a great on the Free Cities podcast. If you
subscribe on Fountain, there's a great interview where Giacomo Zucco interviews the host of Free
Cities podcast, and they talk a lot about seasteading. So highly recommend, subscribe.
And that's a really, really good podcast. But yeah, I think seasteading and Giacomo was also
So he had discounted seasteading and he was very intrigued.
So I think we might get a lot of mutual interest in that again.
So coming back to the planes, though, right?
QW brought up the pleb who flew in a plane to Noster Valley one point.
That was about a year ago.
Presumably he owned that plane.
I can't remember now, but I think he did.
I think that was the point of it
that was intriguing
but not everyone can own a plane
so if someone
wants this sort of hassle free
travel we need
a plane network
and I suspect
there is some intersection with
air traffic control somewhere
maybe Shadrach
you've looked into this more than I have
so
where would this network
of small planes, I'm guessing, where would they come from?
And what about the intersection points with the state, namely air traffic control?
I wish I had more to say on it.
I don't, I haven't.
Mostly what I've been doing is connecting with pilots and mechanics who are interested
when we are able to take this to the next level.
Right. Interesting times indeed, though. And again, just playing out the hypothetical conversation, right? So let's say you did get your hands on the plane and so on and so forth. Then the domestic travel, we've talked about that, how that would work hypothetically.
what about international because that's where things start getting a little hairy and that's
where these kyc intrusions get far more for lack of a better term intrusive um what about a scenario
in which someone is in the u.s and then they go to another they want to go to another citadel and
let's pick Roatan, right, in Prospera.
It's this, if you're familiar with the Shadrach,
it's this sort of independent island.
I think it was carved out through a treaty
and in Prospera there's this Bitcoin circular economy
that's been set up
and I'm guessing they have a private airfield there.
How would that hypothetically work?
Someone from, let's say, New York or Phoenix even,
if they wanted to fly there, hassle-free, no passport, none of that nonsense.
How would that work?
Well, I can't answer that.
But for now, it works however they're doing it currently.
That doesn't address the inherent problems that you brought up, though.
And there's a lot more problems.
Border security, especially for U.S. citizens,
border security in any country can look up all of your travel history they can look up a significant
part of your financial history because they need you know they need to make quick decisions on
whether to stop you or not and these can be countries that are hostile to the U.S. they can
be countries that are hostile towards Bitcoiners when you check into a hotel and you have to KYC
Anybody at that hotel desk could be working for someone who's looking for, you know, if any of these names check in, let us know.
It will give you $10,000.
This is going to be, if not already a reality, a very serious reality in the future.
So I don't have a proposal for the current system.
But what I am interested in and have been working with some people on is the idea of having anonymized passports where you are able to travel under, say, a pseudonym.
On that passport are contacts for if there is an altercation, if government officials need to know who you really are.
There's a process they can go through.
but I think very soon we're going to need to be abstracting our identities for international travel.
Yeah, interesting terms indeed.
And a lot of these countries that do this checking of financial history
and all of that stuff for U.S. citizens,
they're probably the first ones to have an open border for just about everyone else.
So the double standard is odd over there.
But maybe, sorry, were you going to say something, Shadrach?
Oh, no, sorry.
Okay Let go back to I think where you said this all began which is allowing art to travel freely across borders Is that a fair summary of your starting point in this journey
yeah and i i would it was a combination of things so me driving around the united states trying to
organize um in a more efficient way people and packages um kind of uh through a wonderful series
of circumstances um exposed difficulties in specifically europe with uh or coming in and
of the U.S. with bringing things you want to take to a Bitcoin conference. If you want to
take your art from, say, France to England to show it, you've got to cross the French border
and the UK border. Both of them are going to want to know how much your art is worth. They're going
going to want to charge you for it. The whole system is set up for the commercial art industry.
So everything has a price, there's paperwork they require, and then they're charging you
just to move a piece of art to show in another country and then bring home with you.
So that may work for some aspects of the art industry, but when back to the why are we spending so much fiat on everything?
It's a huge, it's extractive and it's demoralizing for the artists.
It's cost prohibitive to be able to show your stuff.
and then
ultimately there's no
you know the conferences want to look
like they support culture
and they say
they're giving artists a place to do that
but there's no support for
there's no
formal way of doing
that in a way that satisfies
Border Patrol and all the
other aspects so
they're kind of
leaving it up to the artist to deal with it
So that was a big part of formalizing A to B because we started doing all of that ourselves.
So we started organizing who can bring the conference decorations from France to London, who can bring the conference decorations from London to Glasgow, you know, and back and forth.
because otherwise you're paying thousands of dollars in fiat to UPS
and then hundreds of dollars to basically arbitrary border agents
who just make up prices.
And sometimes you'll ship something and you'll have two packages.
One gets to you fine.
The other one is being held hostage at the port of Dover
and you literally have to drive to Dover and negotiate hostage.
all to just display
I remember our episode with Fractal and Crypt
yeah
his art was held hostage
in Portugal I believe
yeah and all he was
doing was displaying it there and bringing it back
yeah it's insane
Shadrach
do you have any interesting
stories with
art and like anything
that actually happened in this process
yeah so coming
Going back from Glasgow, we got the conference decorations all the way to Paris, and then
the person bringing it from Paris to Lugano, he had to answer lots of questions at the
French side.
Then he crosses over, he answers questions at the Swiss side.
Everything's fine, but his phone stopped working.
So he parked his car, went to look for a Swiss SIM card, and by the time he got back to the
car, it was surrounded by border agents.
And they kept him there for about four hours, asking him about how much things were worth,
what he was doing, who they were for.
And then they ended up threatening to Google search to find prices for the artwork.
and then finally they settled on a price
and for the mere cost of 240 Swiss francs,
they let him go.
And a pure extortion.
Yeah, absolute extortion.
And they were from Switzerland,
so they were literally being returned to their owner in person.
who was the artist of these pieces uh yeah so my co-founder for a to b is jenna so jenna art
she's amazing she's on nostr um uh just an incredible artist huge um community supporter
she just did some really good surfboards for bitcoin akasa um and um she she's a a giver
she believes in this community
she wants to
bring beauty to it
and it's been
a challenge every step of the way
Fiat is an
evil, evil beast
and it's
really hard for artists
as we know from the music
industry, it's a similar
thing
artwork is such an interesting
one though because uh you know uh hunter biden can paint something some chinese uh diplomat will
buy it for two million dollars he may never even get the art but it's like it's a racket some of it
you know so you know people that are honest people that are actual artists um that are trying to make
a living uh just crossing a border uh they get into that whole gray area that that that uh you
know money laundering and all that other bullshit that's uh kind of attached to uh the the value of
an art piece um it it shit rolls downhill i suppose uh and it just sucks in that respect
yeah sorry rant over no it's it's it's it's tragic it really it really is um art art is uh you know
when people talk about broken money i mean they bring up the entire art industry um what what's
that all about yeah yeah and uh i mean it's it's there's a lot of lost art too um as in as in trades
and uh the way the the time it takes and uh the the quality of art i'm sure obvious can go on and
on about uh different time periods in art but uh yeah it's it seems like i don't know it shouldn't
be that hard to display art at a uh in lugano you know yeah yeah yeah that that's that's made by a
swiss artist and and you know qw speaking of artists being held up at borders and ill-treated
remember the roger 9000 story i mean i shouldn't be laughing it's just did you know the story
Shadrach with Roger 9000? What happened to him in the US? I mean, please tell it, but I love Roger.
We hung out a lot in Glasgow. One of my favorite people. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think he's one of
everyone's favorite people. He was, I think he was flying back from one of the adopting Bitcoin
conferences to Australia.
So from El Salvador, Australia, but I think he had a stop in somewhere on the west coast
of the US.
And when he got off the plane, he was accosted by border agents saying, we have video of
you playing for money at Bitcoin conferences.
And he said, what are you talking about?
Yes, I played music at Bitcoin conferences, but this is not like no one paid me anything.
they're like well how did you get in well you know yeah i mean the ticket whatever
so they actually had video of him in different u.s conferences where he plays right that's what he
used to do i think his first warning was hodl ween when he came to do the hodl ween uh and then the
second time that's when they they really ramped it up on him but yeah on the west coast i think
it was california when he was leaving there well but but so they had video of him doing this but
This guy, you know, you've met Roger.
He's a chocolatier and a musician.
Threw him into the back of a paddy wagon.
And I think they kept him locked up for a couple of days.
And then they canceled his visa and deported him.
Yep.
And he's no longer allowed to come into the United States.
Yeah, for another, you know, I think it's another three years now.
Yeah.
Just one more cycle He be fine He be back Why would he want to be I mean he doesn i wouldn i wouldn go through that again and and i had a similar thing i was coming um
across the um to get a hologram for uh roger 9000 hologram performance totally yeah i was coming
across uh from uh france to england and uh bringing uh festival decorations and they were
they pulled up my financial data
and they were like, who's paying you?
And I'm like, I'm volunteering.
And they were like, we don't believe you.
You have to tell us who's paying you.
And I mean, what do you do?
What do you do at a border crossing?
That was exactly what happened to them.
Yeah, yep.
Can't you say you're self-funding?
I mean, I have, I'm growing my vocabulary
of things to say to border agents.
but like seriously
like I'm giving of myself
freely to people I love
that's what I'm doing
for a purpose
yeah
it's amazing
when we just try to
live free
it's like the most obscure
it's somehow obscure
in this modern world
it's certainly
not the default
People are used to coercion.
And one of the things I noticed in the UK
asking people to help out with stuff
is they're conditioned to ask permission
at every step of the way.
They now don't fear taking one step
without asking permission.
And that's tragic.
Well, and I suspect for the next few,
now with the digital ID stuff that's coming,
they won't be able to press one key
without asking for permission,
let alone take a step.
Yeah.
Are you saying it's not going to get any better, Avi?
Not for a while.
I just don't, I don't see the path.
Yeah, there's going to have to be a breaking point
before a tipping point, I suppose.
Yeah.
So Shadrach, what else are you working on?
I mean, we've already talked about some incredible projects,
but anything else?
I think in general, I would, dear listeners, explore the second realm, start learning about parallel societies.
The more you can do on the Bitcoin side and the less you can contribute to the people who are trying to oppress and likely kill you, the better.
now's the time
know the difference
know the difference between
the first realm and the second realm
and you'll feel it in your heart
indeed they will
anything else Shadrach
anywhere you want to point folks to
how can they use
A to B if they wanted to
any of the other things you're working on
yeah yeah please check out A to B
it's a
There is no owner. I have a co-founder. I think I, you know, co-conspirator, I like to call her. But so, yeah, it's a A to Bitcoin dot IO, but the two is T O. So A T O Bitcoin dot IO.
So the front page is my presentation, and then at the bottom of the presentation is a link to the app.
Play around with it.
Again, this is not a company.
We just built it.
We're hosting it.
It will eventually be available for open source.
But, yeah, GZ did an amazing job.
it's using state machines
it uses end-to-end encryption
some really really innovative
stuff going on with Noster
GZ, is that GZ?
the one QW meant, Jesus
oh Jesus, GZ
yeah, Harvey mentioned
you call him GZ
your lord and savior, Avi
but amazing amazing
so grateful
awesome
actually any before we drop
Shadrach any
highlights from Nostovil
from last week
I'm going to say it again
meeting the
purple painter
what an amazing human being
instant
soul connection.
He is
one of us.
That was just a pleasure.
I could spend many hours with him.
Is that Bitcoin artist?
Is that the one that was doing
basically painting
the plebs?
Oh yeah.
Watercolor?
Yeah.
I actually bought one of his pieces.
I have it in my office here.
yeah i i love i love to support any kind of creativity um and it's uh yeah it's it's cool
that he did in person it was wonderful
awesome purple painter yes and i did get the painting from him uh which he made of me
obvi you didn't just fork it up i mean you could have maybe got a network a mesh uh travel network
to bring that piece to you.
It was in person, man.
Peer to peer.
True peer to peer.
I just love that Nostra
enables that kind of creativity
where you can just kind of find your lane
that caters to you
and people are receptive to it.
So those are those little stories
that are the pleb stories that I love.
Yeah.
Get out there, meet your local people,
be a pioneer
and
there's so much
get in a room with somebody
give them a big hug
the information flows
Awesome
well Shadrach
appreciate you taking the time
and educating us on these
incredible cypherpunk projects
I mean you truly are a cypherpunk
my friend
I don't know if you write code
but your intention
what you're putting out there
is probably some of the most
cypher-punky stuff that's happening
and thank you for the beautiful
whatever you call it at the beginning
it was literally in tears
you couldn't have put it any better
it's beautiful
the sermon
sermon, yes, yes
Avi eloquently speaks it too
yeah
music to my ears
excellent
and I appreciate shows like this
it's kind of like
the fire of my purpose
in the Bitcoin or
Noster space, it's really just freedom tech in general
it's
I got into
the allure of Bitcoin
was really at the cypherpunk level
and the privacy is
the heartbeat of it
but also just the
the permissionless system that, you know, everyone doesn't even know they yearn for it until they
start realizing that you don't need to ask for permission. And it's empowering and powerful.
And thanks for all the topics on the show, Shadrith. Yeah. And as a young father, I'm part
of the Bitcoin grandpas. So next time you're at Lake Satoshi, it's a big family. That's a bucket
list man i need to get him uh i mean we go camping uh you know every summer uh to escape the heat
here in phoenix so it's like almost every i mean i've even done shows from the campsite uh
during uh the last uh last season but uh he's ready man i need to get uh i need to fly into
michigan and um get some sort of a van out there and i'll even tent it i'm not i'm not afraid like
like Avi to use the restroom behind a tree.
To poop in a hole in the ground and use some dry leaves.
Yeah, borrow Avi's camper for my...
Yeah, not scared.
So that's, man, it's on the bucket list.
So, yeah, absolutely.
Well, thank you.
I love you guys.
I really appreciate what you do and keep it up.
Yeah, mutual.
So I respect you now.
Cool.
All right.
Anything else, Avi?
No, that was it for me.
Okay.
Wow.
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