1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,060 In a world where fiat trembles and the mempool never sleeps, one signal cuts through the noise. 2 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,240 Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, Layer 2. 3 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:25,800 Your premium passage to the hidden rifts of Bitcoin culture. 4 00:00:26,380 --> 00:00:29,600 Buckle up and feel the voltage. 5 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:42,720 Welcome, folks. 6 00:00:43,060 --> 00:00:46,640 You've tuned in to Plep Chain Radio Layer 2, 7 00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:51,040 where we peel back the tech to meet the people pushing Bitcoin forward. 8 00:00:51,860 --> 00:00:57,340 Today, we kick off a new series on Bitcoin and NOSTA in India, 9 00:00:57,340 --> 00:01:01,140 and our guides are two builders on the front lines. 10 00:01:01,820 --> 00:01:08,360 Basanthagoswamy, former fiat jobber turned full-time freedom tech maxi, 11 00:01:08,900 --> 00:01:12,400 he co-founded the Assam Bitcoin cohort, 12 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,760 audits wallets, hacks on the Nostra app Formster 13 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:23,300 and just launched unsigned labs and the unfuck the internet meetup in Bangalore. 14 00:01:23,300 --> 00:01:29,560 paper psych, creative polymath, and community steward at Bitshala's Bitspace. 15 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:37,920 From graphic design to UI, he curates hack nights, design-a-thons, and the everyday magic 16 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,200 that keeps India's largest Bitcoin co-working hub buzzing. 17 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:52,400 Over the next hour or so, we'll unpack grassroots education, privacy, culture, UX hurdles, policy headaches, 18 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,060 and the bright orange future they see for the subcontinent. 19 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:57,940 Let's jump in. 20 00:01:58,500 --> 00:02:02,060 Basanthar and Paper, welcome to Plep Chain Radio Layer 2. 21 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,980 Thank you so much for having us for this episode. 22 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,320 And I'm excited to have a conversation with both of you. 23 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,340 Yeah, I think me and Paper, we have known each other for a while. 24 00:02:15,860 --> 00:02:18,340 So yeah, it'll be interesting to talk to someone outside 25 00:02:18,340 --> 00:02:20,940 who has not seen us do anything yet. 26 00:02:21,820 --> 00:02:22,200 Excellent. 27 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,900 So, Vasanthal, why don't we start with you and then we'll move to paper. 28 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:36,260 Tell us a little bit about yourself, how you got started in Bitcoin and Nostra and what you're doing today. 29 00:02:37,580 --> 00:02:43,020 Yeah, so my journey goes back probably till 2017. 30 00:02:43,620 --> 00:02:46,220 So that's when I heard about Bitcoin for the first time. 31 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:51,440 I mean, I had probably known about it even earlier, but 2017 is when I actually looked into it. 32 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,740 I initially thought it was some kind of 33 00:02:53,740 --> 00:02:54,040 Reddit 34 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:55,880 what's that called? 35 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:56,340 Karma? 36 00:02:56,540 --> 00:02:58,200 Reddit karma coins or whatever 37 00:02:58,200 --> 00:02:59,580 similar to that 38 00:02:59,580 --> 00:03:01,500 some internet thing 39 00:03:01,500 --> 00:03:03,540 but that was mostly 40 00:03:03,540 --> 00:03:06,260 I got interested mostly because 41 00:03:06,260 --> 00:03:08,420 there was some kind of virus 42 00:03:08,420 --> 00:03:10,060 computer virus that was spreading 43 00:03:10,060 --> 00:03:12,520 some kind of ransomware 44 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,020 and they were demanding their payments in Bitcoin 45 00:03:15,020 --> 00:03:17,180 so that's when I actually got interested 46 00:03:17,180 --> 00:03:19,320 then I think around 47 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:26,520 2018 is when I started researching all different kinds of things that will actually be important in the future. 48 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:36,540 And my list included things like blockchain technology, obviously, and nuclear fusion and all those sorts of stuff. 49 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:38,880 Artificial general intelligence and stuff. 50 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,400 So that's how I got into blockchain. 51 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:48,400 During my college days, I was learning Ethereum contracting and whatnot, solidity and those kind of stuff. 52 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:53,740 and around 2021 is when I actually became a Bitcoin maxi, 53 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,900 mostly from Andreas Antonopoulos, watching his videos. 54 00:03:57,860 --> 00:04:03,380 And I think my turning point in life was around November of 2022 55 00:04:03,380 --> 00:04:05,980 and that is the first time I made paper as well. 56 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,000 And it was a Bitcoin conference, I think the first Bitcoin conference of India 57 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,520 where we all just came together and a lot of things started from there. 58 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,080 So yeah, and I have been into Nostar even before that 59 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,120 because I followed Fiat Jeff on Twitter 60 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,800 and when he made one of the announcement posts on Twitter 61 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,460 about the Telegram group that he was starting 62 00:04:25,460 --> 00:04:26,940 to discuss Noster stuff, 63 00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:28,640 I joined it immediately. 64 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,720 That was, I think, around December or October of 2021. 65 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,400 And yeah, since then, 66 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:35,860 even before I got my first job, 67 00:04:36,140 --> 00:04:37,620 which I started in March of 2022, 68 00:04:37,620 --> 00:04:39,860 I was trying to build something on Noster. 69 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:42,920 And yeah, finally, last year, 70 00:04:43,060 --> 00:04:45,260 I mean, October of 2023 71 00:04:45,260 --> 00:04:47,160 is when I finally left my job 72 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:48,840 and started working on Nostra Bitcoin full time. 73 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:50,100 At least tried to. 74 00:04:51,100 --> 00:04:52,360 So Basant, that's great. 75 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,340 You are a true Nostra OG then 76 00:04:55,340 --> 00:04:59,580 because if you joined before the Jack Dorsey wave 77 00:04:59,580 --> 00:05:02,360 that began in December of 2022, 78 00:05:03,020 --> 00:05:05,100 that really makes you an OG. 79 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,100 So kudos on that. 80 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:09,740 So what was that moment like though for you, Basant, 81 00:05:09,740 --> 00:05:11,780 where you were playing around with blockchain, 82 00:05:12,340 --> 00:05:14,240 writing smart contracts on Ethereum. 83 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:20,640 was there an aha moment that that led you to becoming a full-fledged maxi 84 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:29,520 i i'm not sure if there is one moment but yeah i know that andreas and anna police he does not 85 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:34,560 consider himself a bitcoin maxi he has written the book called uh the ethereum standard or 86 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,900 what's that mastering ethereum yeah he he coded it and he's not a bitcoin maxi at all 87 00:05:39,900 --> 00:05:42,000 and Jameson Lopp 88 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:43,720 even he is not a Bitcoin maxi 89 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:45,940 Elon Musk not a Bitcoin maxi 90 00:05:45,940 --> 00:05:47,460 Pomp not a Bitcoin maxi 91 00:05:47,460 --> 00:05:49,260 but these four guys 92 00:05:49,260 --> 00:05:51,900 and the arguments that they were presenting 93 00:05:51,900 --> 00:05:53,620 Elon Musk was talking about how Bitcoin 94 00:05:53,620 --> 00:05:55,880 like he actually had 95 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,100 I think included Bitcoin in his company's 96 00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:00,200 balance sheet and those kind of stuff 97 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:01,920 and the arguments from these three guys 98 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,320 about how Bitcoin goes to like 1 million dollars 99 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,060 or whatever because I was still 100 00:06:06,060 --> 00:06:08,040 a lot more interested in the price 101 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:09,700 back then so 102 00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:14,920 So those arguments kind of just made me realize that Bitcoin is the only thing that's going to matter. 103 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:20,200 Not even something like Monero because of all the other reasons associated with it, right? 104 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:21,480 It's not just the technology. 105 00:06:21,980 --> 00:06:28,920 You have to create something like 10x, 100x better than Bitcoin for it to be able to even have a chance of replacing what Bitcoin has done already. 106 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,220 So the network effect and those kind of stuff. 107 00:06:31,660 --> 00:06:35,420 So I became a Bitcoin maxi even when I was still a shitcoiner. 108 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:38,380 Because I was like, okay, maybe I'll keep doing this kind of stuff. 109 00:06:38,380 --> 00:06:41,440 I'll keep writing contracts and stuff in the side. 110 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:43,680 But Bitcoin is the main thing. 111 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,620 But then eventually I just decided, okay, fuck it. 112 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:47,660 I'll not do anything. 113 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:49,520 I'll just start buying Bitcoin. 114 00:06:49,740 --> 00:06:51,220 I'll not even worry about anything else. 115 00:06:51,420 --> 00:06:54,520 I'll keep my shitposts to the minimum on Twitter. 116 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,920 And yeah, it was not a moment, but eventually I just did it. 117 00:06:58,940 --> 00:06:59,600 I had to do it. 118 00:07:00,540 --> 00:07:00,920 Excellent. 119 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:06,860 And you also quit your fiat job to focus on Freedom Tech full time. 120 00:07:06,860 --> 00:07:10,000 what was that moment like what led to that decision 121 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:16,740 yeah so because I discovered Noster even before I started my full-time job right 122 00:07:16,740 --> 00:07:23,980 and I was like just fresh out of college it's it was probably like three or four months since I 123 00:07:23,980 --> 00:07:28,860 graduated and I was already working on some random freelancing work so I did not have a full-time job 124 00:07:28,860 --> 00:07:35,840 and I already discovered Noster so and my goal was I tried creating the creating one of the Noster 125 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:41,780 relays and it was called NOCA it was probably one of the earliest it was it was one of the 126 00:07:41,780 --> 00:07:46,940 earlier Nostar relays for sure probably the third or fourth Nostar relay implementation 127 00:07:46,940 --> 00:07:52,580 and I tried doing it full-time but then then I realized my freelancing or some random small 128 00:07:52,580 --> 00:07:57,560 project experience was not good enough for it I needed actual experience working at the company 129 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:02,800 or working with someone full-time so and obviously Nostar didn't have grants or Nostar didn't even 130 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:08,200 have a like defined future back then nostril didn't even have nsecs or npubs it was all hex 131 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:13,900 pub keys and private keys so it was at a very early stage so there was no way for me to work 132 00:08:13,900 --> 00:08:19,160 on nostril full-time and bitcoin was still a bit too complicated for me to get into bitcoin 133 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:26,840 development wise so yes i just had to get a job i did it but even while working i would try to 134 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:32,140 talk about nostril or bitcoin with those guys i try to because it is a service-based company we 135 00:08:32,140 --> 00:08:36,680 We used to work on projects for third party clients. 136 00:08:37,060 --> 00:08:40,260 And I will try to get Bitcoin into their ecosystem somehow. 137 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,100 Maybe get them to accept Bitcoin payments using BTCP server. 138 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,240 Or talk to them about secret key management for some kind of internet communication. 139 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:56,080 Or using Noster for their internet communication and those kind of stuff. 140 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,600 And it never really worked out. 141 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:00,720 And I realized I had to do it full time eventually. 142 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,740 so since the day I joined my job 143 00:09:03,740 --> 00:09:05,740 I constantly had it in the back of my mind 144 00:09:05,740 --> 00:09:06,660 that I'm wasting my life 145 00:09:06,660 --> 00:09:08,460 because I'm not working on Nostrad and Bitcoin 146 00:09:08,460 --> 00:09:10,140 and one of the funniest things about Nostrad 147 00:09:10,140 --> 00:09:11,760 is that I had started thinking about 148 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,260 creating a Twitter alternative 149 00:09:13,260 --> 00:09:15,460 because Twitter was getting more censored 150 00:09:15,460 --> 00:09:17,940 I mean the Bitcoiners were getting more censored on Twitter 151 00:09:17,940 --> 00:09:20,140 so I was thinking of creating a Twitter alternative 152 00:09:20,140 --> 00:09:21,320 using signed events 153 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,600 so yeah using digital signatures 154 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,340 and I had a very basic idea written down 155 00:09:27,340 --> 00:09:29,520 on Google Keep or Google Notes somewhere 156 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,020 and then I see Fiat Zeb's post 157 00:09:32,020 --> 00:09:34,240 and I read the initial Nip of Nosr 158 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,360 and it's like, okay, this is my 159 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,380 own idea, but from someone 160 00:09:38,380 --> 00:09:40,360 else, from someone that I respect on Bitcoin 161 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,320 and in the Bitcoin community and he has 162 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,060 written this idea and he has made the first 163 00:09:44,060 --> 00:09:46,200 implementation as well. And that's when I 164 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,260 realized, okay, it had to be 165 00:09:48,260 --> 00:09:50,420 like, it had to be something that 166 00:09:50,420 --> 00:09:52,300 was made for 167 00:09:52,300 --> 00:09:53,900 me, right, because I already had those ideas 168 00:09:53,900 --> 00:09:55,600 and I already wanted to work on it. 169 00:09:56,380 --> 00:09:58,180 So, yeah, then I think I 170 00:09:58,180 --> 00:10:05,300 just had to leave my job eventually I knew it from the day I joined it and yeah I did eventually I 171 00:10:05,300 --> 00:10:11,580 just did it one day because I was drunk and I decided okay I'll just I'll just leave the job 172 00:10:11,580 --> 00:10:19,960 today excellent well no better way you had your moment of clarity excellent so paper let's tell 173 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:28,020 us a little bit about yourself uh what what are you a developer are you a designer um how did you 174 00:10:28,020 --> 00:10:35,260 find bitcoin um yeah let's hear let's hear about that so yeah thank you so much and 175 00:10:35,260 --> 00:10:41,140 the santha story is one of the most interesting ones i've ever heard in the bitcoin space so 176 00:10:41,140 --> 00:10:49,400 i'm really happy listening to it again after 2022 i guess uh but yeah about me i came to bitcoin 177 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:57,540 in 2022, the same conference that Basanta mentioned. But the funny fact about it is that 178 00:10:57,540 --> 00:11:04,040 I did not come because I was into Bitcoin. I came because a friend had participated in Summer of 179 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:12,760 Bitcoin and he had a chance to speak on the stage about his experience. So I just chucked along with 180 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:19,740 him to see him on stage basically like a good friend but it ended up becoming the night that 181 00:11:19,740 --> 00:11:26,560 changed everything so yeah i mean that particular friend had been telling me about bitcoin for like 182 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:32,980 i think so eight months or something and i had been like you're a crypto bro so please let's 183 00:11:32,980 --> 00:11:49,759 not talk about this and stuff and we were in the we were in bangalore at the same time when meetups used to happen and I refused to go there because I was like this is not my forte this is not my cup of tea and I don want to know about all of this but yeah I went to the conference 184 00:11:49,759 --> 00:11:56,799 and there I so one more coincident that happened because of that particular friend was I did not 185 00:11:56,799 --> 00:12:04,579 sit in the general track I sat in the developer track and developer track is where all the builders 186 00:12:04,579 --> 00:12:14,459 were exactly people building right now on bitcoin so the first talk on cypherpunks was by raj and 187 00:12:14,459 --> 00:12:19,679 raj gave his talk his was the most simplest introduction to cypherpunk privacy and bitcoin 188 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:25,379 and i understood stuff and then he came off stage he sat next to me and i asked i started asking 189 00:12:25,379 --> 00:12:31,979 him questions and that conversation multiple conversations happened like this that night and 190 00:12:31,979 --> 00:12:37,899 one of the conversations with Raj was about Bitshala that he's trying to he's working on an 191 00:12:37,899 --> 00:12:43,559 idea Bitcoin education for developers kind of thing and I told him that I am a designer I 192 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:50,839 I was a copywriter exclusively at that time I switched to being a designer out of circumstances 193 00:12:50,839 --> 00:12:56,779 because I was putting out content and it did not look pretty enough so I started learning design 194 00:12:56,779 --> 00:13:04,699 also and then it kind of became one of the things I started being paid for so anyways yeah so that 195 00:13:04,699 --> 00:13:11,759 particular night we had a conversation Raj and me and multiple others and you guys know about that 196 00:13:11,759 --> 00:13:20,319 concept like if you learn about a thing for 20 hours you become fairly knowledgeable than 90% 197 00:13:20,319 --> 00:13:25,939 of the people out there about that particular topic right so my conversation started with Raj 198 00:13:25,939 --> 00:13:30,639 went on to Adi Shankar with Adi Shankar of Summer of Bitcoin. 199 00:13:31,199 --> 00:13:36,759 Then two, three other people who were the organizers, who were developers, who were building in Bitcoin. 200 00:13:37,439 --> 00:13:43,879 And that night, for the first night, I was only asking one question to everyone because I became so interested in Bitcoin. 201 00:13:44,579 --> 00:13:48,239 And I was asking one question that, how do I contribute? 202 00:13:48,639 --> 00:13:53,759 All I see here is developers or big businessmen who are trying to build products. 203 00:13:53,759 --> 00:13:55,259 I don't know both of them. 204 00:13:55,259 --> 00:14:01,459 how do i contribute and everyone said the same thing uh you'll find your path just keep showing 205 00:14:01,459 --> 00:14:09,039 up and that's what i did for the next i think so six months until i found my first gig in bitcoin 206 00:14:09,039 --> 00:14:17,819 and yeah so the 20 hours thing so the second day the conference was of two days the first day it 207 00:14:17,819 --> 00:14:26,459 was general conversation and I was completely in awe by how closely can a community be formed 208 00:14:26,459 --> 00:14:33,139 or how close the members of a community can be around a singular idea this was my first time 209 00:14:33,139 --> 00:14:39,079 seeing people so passionate so energetic so driven to build something to do something to 210 00:14:39,079 --> 00:14:43,779 say things like I've been around people who say things for the sake of saying things and then I 211 00:14:43,779 --> 00:14:50,059 was around Bitcoiners who were saying things out of pure, like, what do you call fire in their blood, 212 00:14:50,359 --> 00:14:57,239 right? And I've never seen that. And the second day when the conference ended, after that, I sat 213 00:14:57,239 --> 00:15:05,979 with a few people and that conversation, that particular conversation lasted from 9pm to 6am. 214 00:15:05,979 --> 00:15:13,859 nine hours nobody stopped talking about bitcoin that night in a group and then i was like 215 00:15:13,859 --> 00:15:20,239 nah i need to get into this i need to get into this after that i just i went back to my friend 216 00:15:20,239 --> 00:15:25,699 i asked him for suggestions he told me the bitcoin standard and other books that you should read to 217 00:15:25,699 --> 00:15:31,599 get started and then the whole journey began this is my basic introduction of how bitcoin 218 00:15:31,599 --> 00:15:40,439 like how i came to bitcoin and then after that 2023 mid of 2023 is when i approached raj asking 219 00:15:40,439 --> 00:15:46,559 him ki you said something about bitshala a few months ago is it happening what's going on can 220 00:15:46,559 --> 00:15:54,719 i contribute and he said yes we need a designer for now so since then like design then copy ui 221 00:15:54,719 --> 00:15:57,299 and then the hunting for Bitspace 222 00:15:57,299 --> 00:15:59,139 and getting this idea 223 00:15:59,139 --> 00:16:00,939 not started exactly but 224 00:16:00,939 --> 00:16:03,139 bringing this place to life with 225 00:16:03,139 --> 00:16:05,139 the Bitshala team and then 226 00:16:05,139 --> 00:16:07,119 becoming the community guy here 227 00:16:07,119 --> 00:16:09,159 and since then it's been 228 00:16:09,159 --> 00:16:11,339 like something completely brilliant 229 00:16:11,339 --> 00:16:13,319 Well that's a great 230 00:16:13,319 --> 00:16:13,659 story 231 00:16:13,659 --> 00:16:16,739 The day of 232 00:16:16,739 --> 00:16:19,159 I think 6 November 2022 233 00:16:19,159 --> 00:16:21,079 that's when pretty much 234 00:16:21,079 --> 00:16:23,159 all of the things that 235 00:16:23,159 --> 00:16:24,919 has happened on Bitcoin India 236 00:16:24,919 --> 00:16:26,739 because the Bitcoin India ecosystem 237 00:16:26,739 --> 00:16:28,139 has started from. 238 00:16:28,659 --> 00:16:30,699 Those two days were really, really crucial. 239 00:16:30,879 --> 00:16:32,679 Even though I did not talk to many people, but yeah, 240 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:34,659 most of the things that have happened ever since 241 00:16:34,659 --> 00:16:36,199 have come out of those two days. 242 00:16:37,079 --> 00:16:38,979 And you know, that was, it's interesting 243 00:16:38,979 --> 00:16:40,819 that you say that, both of you, that 244 00:16:40,819 --> 00:16:43,039 you know, it was that sort of 245 00:16:43,039 --> 00:16:44,399 seminal day 246 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:46,719 in early November because 247 00:16:46,719 --> 00:16:48,799 that was around the time the 248 00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:51,079 FTX thing was going down, right? 249 00:16:51,139 --> 00:16:52,679 And I think Bitcoin might have hit 250 00:16:52,679 --> 00:17:00,039 15k around then so it's really interesting that so many things were born around that time when 251 00:17:00,039 --> 00:17:08,659 arguably bitcoin was at its low point in the last five years that that was the one more beautiful 252 00:17:08,659 --> 00:17:14,299 part because i did when you're new to bitcoin you do check the price every other day right and that 253 00:17:14,299 --> 00:17:22,199 time i did check but that did not affect what i was studying like if i wanted to study more if i 254 00:17:22,199 --> 00:17:29,579 wanted to research more the price that i was seeing of whatever 15 20 that did not affect how 255 00:17:29,579 --> 00:17:36,719 or that did not affect whether i wanted to continue in this or not that was how influential 256 00:17:36,719 --> 00:17:46,239 the conversations with the people were at that night so yeah yeah i i love this story paper uh 257 00:17:46,239 --> 00:17:55,039 And it sounds like those conversations had such a big impact on you starting that year on November 6, 22. 258 00:17:55,039 --> 00:18:01,099 And then the following conversations that you didn't even deviate into shitcoinery. 259 00:18:01,239 --> 00:18:03,099 You became a maxi on the spot. 260 00:18:05,019 --> 00:18:05,579 Yeah, exactly. 261 00:18:06,059 --> 00:18:15,239 I had before this, like 2022 is when I started learning a little bit about cryptocurrency before this conference. 262 00:18:15,239 --> 00:18:17,379 because my friend started mentioning about Bitcoin. 263 00:18:18,059 --> 00:18:21,979 So naturally, when someone mentions Bitcoin, 264 00:18:22,159 --> 00:18:26,399 you search it on Google and it shows crypto, blockchain and stuff like that. 265 00:18:26,439 --> 00:18:28,119 It never shows real Bitcoin stuff. 266 00:18:28,959 --> 00:18:31,559 So I did not go without that rabbit hole, 267 00:18:31,939 --> 00:18:35,859 but I did invest some money into crypto. 268 00:18:36,699 --> 00:18:38,539 I think so it was Solana and Ethereum, 269 00:18:39,019 --> 00:18:41,339 most likely just two of them and a little bit of Bitcoin, 270 00:18:41,339 --> 00:18:44,699 which is stuck in an exchange because they've stopped withdrawals. 271 00:18:45,239 --> 00:18:48,759 So, yeah, that was the only bit of it. 272 00:18:48,859 --> 00:18:52,959 And then directly to being around maxis and understanding the whole point. 273 00:18:53,239 --> 00:19:02,639 Actually, like another fun fact is in the last year, I've had to study a bit more about crypto altcoins and shitcoins in general. 274 00:19:02,639 --> 00:19:13,639 Because when I'm having conversations with people and I have to argue or I have to present my point in a much bolder format that this is not how it works. 275 00:19:13,719 --> 00:19:14,539 This is how it works. 276 00:19:14,539 --> 00:19:23,419 That time I sometimes fumble because I don't know exactly about how altcoins work or the state of whatever they're doing, right? 277 00:19:24,259 --> 00:19:27,419 So it's been a learning journey. 278 00:19:27,739 --> 00:19:30,379 But yeah, not shitcoinery ever. 279 00:19:31,719 --> 00:19:32,399 Excellent. 280 00:19:33,059 --> 00:19:42,599 So, Pepa, you mentioned two terms which are familiar to any Indian listening, but perhaps not to a non-Indian audience. 281 00:19:42,599 --> 00:19:45,119 which one was BitChalla, the other was BitSpace. 282 00:19:45,899 --> 00:19:48,299 So do you want to talk, you know, 283 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,199 give folks an understanding of what BitChalla is? 284 00:19:52,559 --> 00:19:55,619 So BitChalla, in the simplest of words, 285 00:19:56,839 --> 00:20:03,079 does, like it helps Indian developers transition into Bitcoin open source. 286 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,979 Like it helps educate them and onboard them into Bitcoin open source. 287 00:20:07,719 --> 00:20:11,779 And what, how we do that is that we have study cohorts, 288 00:20:11,779 --> 00:20:18,959 we have clubs we have events and fellowship programs so to elaborate a little further there 289 00:20:18,959 --> 00:20:24,959 are open source study cohorts where you can come in and there is open source study material like 290 00:20:24,959 --> 00:20:29,639 mastering bitcoin learning bitcoin through the command line programming bitcoin and bitcoin 291 00:20:29,639 --> 00:20:35,479 development philosophy all of these have their separate cohorts and you can come in study with 292 00:20:35,479 --> 00:20:41,659 a group of people who are interested in the same thing why this came to be like a chain code has it 293 00:20:41,659 --> 00:20:50,779 had its own cohorts and then kala had its own cohorts and stuff like a culmination of all of 294 00:20:50,779 --> 00:20:58,879 that when bichala came to educate indian developers or even south like global south developers into 295 00:20:58,879 --> 00:21:06,319 bitcoin the study code was the first part then it became like clubs we have a few clubs running like 296 00:21:06,319 --> 00:21:13,499 I think so four clubs which are latest in Bitcoin tech which is an overview of all the stuff that 297 00:21:13,499 --> 00:21:19,279 happened in the last week in Bitcoin tech then there is TradFi and Bitcoin which is traditional 298 00:21:19,279 --> 00:21:23,919 finance and Bitcoin talking about both aspects there's a Bitshala reading club and there's a 299 00:21:23,919 --> 00:21:30,139 Bitcoin core PR review club and one more which is the Rust learning club so these are all the clubs 300 00:21:30,139 --> 00:21:34,859 where people come together with different needs and they study together they learn things together 301 00:21:34,859 --> 00:21:41,279 cohorts I told you then there are there is a fellowship program where if you study the cohorts 302 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:46,799 you are capable enough of coding in bitcoin developing in bitcoin and you want to kick 303 00:21:46,799 --> 00:21:53,019 start your career we have it's kind of like an apprenticeship model where you come in get into 304 00:21:53,019 --> 00:21:59,019 a project we pay you for working in bitcoin open source and then you build your skills build your 305 00:21:59,019 --> 00:22:03,439 experience and then you go out into the world into your own projects if you want to build something 306 00:22:03,439 --> 00:22:10,279 if you want to continue that's completely on you. Bitspace is the hackerspace in Bangalore 307 00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:19,419 and right now we are like 10 people here who are every day co-working out of Bitspace and except 308 00:22:19,419 --> 00:22:26,219 that we have multiple events which is for Bitcoin awareness so we have categories of events but to 309 00:22:26,219 --> 00:22:30,899 broadly categorize them it would be like a general awareness events that we have here 310 00:22:30,899 --> 00:22:38,219 and bit devs bit devs is like core hardcore bitcoin development technical stuff the other 311 00:22:38,219 --> 00:22:44,159 stuff are also technical but most of them we focus on awareness that people around here should get to 312 00:22:44,159 --> 00:22:48,659 learn about bitcoin and then when it comes to a serious talk about building then it's bit devs 313 00:22:48,659 --> 00:22:57,939 so yeah i bitshala's goal if i had to summarize it would be to give developers designers the 314 00:22:57,939 --> 00:23:04,839 and the community to fix the money, fix the world through their, what do you call, building 315 00:23:04,839 --> 00:23:05,959 abilities, right? 316 00:23:06,779 --> 00:23:09,739 And Bitspace is to come together and go work. 317 00:23:09,739 --> 00:23:16,299 Yeah, and one thing I didn't mention was that Bitshala has started doing even bigger 318 00:23:16,299 --> 00:23:19,159 conferences in collaboration with other organizations now. 319 00:23:19,739 --> 00:23:32,037 So those things are there as well Yeah I absolutely yeah Bitshala So BitPlebs is we did one in March and the next one is happening in November so that was like a 320 00:23:32,037 --> 00:23:32,358 big 321 00:23:32,358 --> 00:23:33,758 big event 322 00:23:33,758 --> 00:23:34,537 a collaboration 323 00:23:34,537 --> 00:23:35,618 between Bitshala 324 00:23:35,618 --> 00:23:36,138 and Plebs 325 00:23:36,138 --> 00:23:36,838 together strong 326 00:23:36,838 --> 00:23:37,957 and 327 00:23:37,957 --> 00:23:39,438 the point of it 328 00:23:39,438 --> 00:23:40,557 was to showcase 329 00:23:40,557 --> 00:23:41,378 and 330 00:23:41,378 --> 00:23:43,037 give the Indian 331 00:23:43,037 --> 00:23:43,618 Bitcoiners 332 00:23:43,618 --> 00:23:44,178 the Indian 333 00:23:44,178 --> 00:23:45,057 Bitcoin ecosystem 334 00:23:45,057 --> 00:23:45,838 a stage 335 00:23:45,838 --> 00:23:47,078 to come together 336 00:23:47,078 --> 00:23:48,197 and 337 00:23:48,197 --> 00:23:49,717 not only show 338 00:23:49,717 --> 00:23:50,118 the world 339 00:23:50,118 --> 00:23:50,758 what we are doing 340 00:23:50,758 --> 00:23:56,977 but to actually collaborate amongst us right all the indian people who are in their own silos in 341 00:23:56,977 --> 00:24:04,697 their own cities and just what do you call they build in silence and they only share on social 342 00:24:04,697 --> 00:24:10,438 media they need to come together they need to come together to one place and collaborate talk 343 00:24:10,438 --> 00:24:17,318 about stuff build stuff so that was bitplebs and i think yeah on social media and stuff it's 344 00:24:17,318 --> 00:24:19,237 available, what happened, what went down. 345 00:24:19,838 --> 00:24:21,378 But yeah, it was one of the 346 00:24:21,378 --> 00:24:23,438 biggest events that we've pulled off and we 347 00:24:23,438 --> 00:24:25,578 intend to do even better in November. 348 00:24:27,258 --> 00:24:29,418 Got it. So if I were to summarize, 349 00:24:30,598 --> 00:24:31,057 BitShala 350 00:24:31,057 --> 00:24:33,638 is really an educational effort 351 00:24:33,638 --> 00:24:34,977 across multiple 352 00:24:34,977 --> 00:24:37,338 specialties within Bitcoin 353 00:24:37,338 --> 00:24:39,398 obviously. That's where the cohorts come 354 00:24:39,398 --> 00:24:41,598 in and it's an ongoing 355 00:24:41,598 --> 00:24:42,758 education program. 356 00:24:43,537 --> 00:24:45,598 BitDevs is a co-working space 357 00:24:45,598 --> 00:24:48,017 in Bangalore where a group of you work together 358 00:24:48,017 --> 00:24:50,858 and then BitPlebs is this event. 359 00:24:51,258 --> 00:24:53,938 It's a recurring event, correct, that you host? 360 00:24:55,318 --> 00:24:58,418 For now, it's like every six months or annual, 361 00:24:58,658 --> 00:24:59,537 but we'll see. 362 00:25:01,178 --> 00:25:01,418 Got it. 363 00:25:01,517 --> 00:25:05,457 And yeah, BitDevs is event. 364 00:25:05,618 --> 00:25:07,957 BitSpace is the co-working space. 365 00:25:10,398 --> 00:25:11,078 Got it. 366 00:25:11,318 --> 00:25:12,977 I think, yeah, we mixed up the words. 367 00:25:13,477 --> 00:25:14,697 Okay, okay, yes. 368 00:25:15,598 --> 00:25:24,197 Thank you for clarifying. So BitShala and all of these cohorts, it sounds like, did you say it's been running for about two years now, a little over two years? 369 00:25:24,737 --> 00:25:29,217 Yes, they started in Jan 2023, right after the conference. 370 00:25:30,057 --> 00:25:37,618 Got it. How many people have gone through all of these cohorts? Do you have a ballpark number? 371 00:25:37,618 --> 00:25:45,158 A ballpark number would be easily above 200, 300. 372 00:25:46,477 --> 00:25:47,898 I would say 300. 373 00:25:49,178 --> 00:25:54,758 And presumably all of them come out being full-fledged toxic Bitcoin maxis, right? 374 00:25:55,918 --> 00:25:57,818 I wish we could say that, but no. 375 00:25:58,858 --> 00:26:00,217 I wish we would. 376 00:26:00,318 --> 00:26:03,618 If we had 100% retention rate and success rate, 377 00:26:03,618 --> 00:26:06,818 then we would take over the world right now. 378 00:26:06,818 --> 00:26:10,098 but unfortunately no. 379 00:26:10,277 --> 00:26:13,918 A lot of the people who even after completing the cohorts, 380 00:26:14,418 --> 00:26:20,818 the ecosystem in India especially is very... 381 00:26:21,818 --> 00:26:24,418 How can I explain it simple? 382 00:26:24,818 --> 00:26:32,297 The ecosystem in India right now is in a very unfertile stage, right? 383 00:26:32,297 --> 00:26:38,797 where people coming into bitcoin and them them studying through the cohorts and becoming something 384 00:26:38,797 --> 00:26:44,477 or being able to code in bitcoin they still if they don't understand the philosophy properly 385 00:26:44,477 --> 00:26:52,457 right they tend to not stick around or they tend to stick around for money which again depends on 386 00:26:52,457 --> 00:26:59,918 the skills they have so currently from bitshawla there are around 20 plus devs who have who are 387 00:26:59,918 --> 00:27:04,477 actively full-time working on Bitcoin via us. 388 00:27:05,197 --> 00:27:09,977 But rest of the, I would say, 80%, 90%, they studied, 389 00:27:10,138 --> 00:27:14,197 but they probably did not grasp the real thing. 390 00:27:15,697 --> 00:27:17,977 But, yeah, it's a slow process. 391 00:27:19,557 --> 00:27:24,277 Now, are there any uniquely Indian challenges? 392 00:27:24,277 --> 00:27:26,717 you've noticed paper on 393 00:27:26,717 --> 00:27:28,758 you know 394 00:27:28,758 --> 00:27:30,658 to get people into the 395 00:27:30,658 --> 00:27:32,338 maxi mindset right because 396 00:27:32,338 --> 00:27:34,638 there is a lot of shit coinery in 397 00:27:34,638 --> 00:27:36,658 India right there a lot of 398 00:27:36,658 --> 00:27:38,057 the crypto companies 399 00:27:38,057 --> 00:27:40,618 either their lead developers are 400 00:27:40,618 --> 00:27:42,578 Indian or they're even like in the 401 00:27:42,578 --> 00:27:43,398 case of 402 00:27:43,398 --> 00:27:46,598 Polygon or Matish or whatever 403 00:27:46,598 --> 00:27:48,418 they call themselves now right the Ethereum 404 00:27:48,418 --> 00:27:50,518 layer 2 that was started in India 405 00:27:50,518 --> 00:27:51,518 if I'm not mistaken 406 00:27:51,518 --> 00:28:00,398 Is there any specific or unique challenge to India that you've come across? 407 00:28:01,858 --> 00:28:12,197 The unique challenge, I would say, is we have lost our ability to be risk takers, I would say. 408 00:28:12,658 --> 00:28:13,537 A lot of us. 409 00:28:13,537 --> 00:28:21,618 so even for me i think if i did not go to that particular conference i might not be here today 410 00:28:21,618 --> 00:28:27,858 it my friend was talking to me about bitcoin for eight months he was talking to me about money for 411 00:28:27,858 --> 00:28:32,178 eight months he was talking to me about stuff he was sharing resources he was trying his best 412 00:28:32,178 --> 00:28:38,037 but it was me who was not listening because and i think indians could relate is that 413 00:28:38,037 --> 00:28:47,217 our conditions is not exactly as bad as the other countries right we are still comfortable 414 00:28:47,217 --> 00:28:57,477 we can still manage our stuff and if you come to and if you think about our day-to-day it's not as 415 00:28:57,477 --> 00:29:06,318 like people have other problems apparently to deal with than working with working on this right 416 00:29:06,318 --> 00:29:12,118 and then i don't know how it relates i mean how different it is outside of india but 417 00:29:12,118 --> 00:29:23,998 the belief system here is pretty much like narrow like the main builders that are there they 418 00:29:23,998 --> 00:29:33,098 go behind um let's say polygon for example so polygon and web 3 they are extremely famous in 419 00:29:33,098 --> 00:29:38,998 india they are like the web 3 space in india is booming like anything nobody's in bitcoin but 420 00:29:38,998 --> 00:29:44,498 everyone wants to be working on ethereum or after ethereum or something like that and 421 00:29:44,498 --> 00:29:53,178 it is because of money i would say like there they have all the fluff to showcase like when 422 00:29:53,178 --> 00:29:57,297 we say bitcoin does not have a marketing department they have and people here are 423 00:29:57,297 --> 00:29:59,297 easily influenced by 424 00:29:59,297 --> 00:30:00,898 marketing and 425 00:30:00,898 --> 00:30:03,578 what has scope and if they 426 00:30:03,578 --> 00:30:05,678 see a lot of other people's other people 427 00:30:05,678 --> 00:30:07,557 building on it they try 428 00:30:07,557 --> 00:30:09,237 to jump ship right 429 00:30:09,237 --> 00:30:11,498 and bitcoin is like this niche thing 430 00:30:11,498 --> 00:30:13,377 people don't care about because it's 431 00:30:13,377 --> 00:30:15,618 exceeded its potential and 432 00:30:15,618 --> 00:30:17,518 who will take the time to study 433 00:30:17,518 --> 00:30:19,557 it this crypto and 434 00:30:19,557 --> 00:30:20,418 web3 has more 435 00:30:20,418 --> 00:30:23,537 scope apparently in india so 436 00:30:23,537 --> 00:30:25,318 that's one thing 437 00:30:25,318 --> 00:30:26,358 but 438 00:30:26,358 --> 00:30:29,418 if I had to say another 439 00:30:29,418 --> 00:30:32,178 thing that I have noticed 440 00:30:32,178 --> 00:30:33,358 in the community when 441 00:30:33,358 --> 00:30:35,498 I attend events, I host events 442 00:30:35,498 --> 00:30:36,678 and the people who come in here 443 00:30:36,678 --> 00:30:39,717 they come with the expectation 444 00:30:39,717 --> 00:30:40,918 that 445 00:30:40,918 --> 00:30:43,358 if we get into this field 446 00:30:43,358 --> 00:30:45,518 or no 447 00:30:45,518 --> 00:30:47,818 I will just simply say 448 00:30:47,818 --> 00:30:49,957 that Indians are lazy 449 00:30:49,957 --> 00:30:50,777 okay 450 00:30:50,777 --> 00:30:53,918 they are lazy, they don't want to put in the work 451 00:30:53,918 --> 00:30:55,578 and when it comes to 452 00:30:55,578 --> 00:30:58,098 Because if you need to understand Bitcoin, it takes time. 453 00:30:58,758 --> 00:31:12,838 It requires you to be open enough that when you learn about Bitcoin, your entire belief system shatters. 454 00:31:14,297 --> 00:31:16,838 And most of the Indians are not ready for that yet. 455 00:31:17,498 --> 00:31:19,457 And this is one of the other things that I've noticed. 456 00:31:19,457 --> 00:31:23,118 and when Bitcoin maxis talk to other normies in India, 457 00:31:23,977 --> 00:31:25,717 the conversation does not go well. 458 00:31:26,777 --> 00:31:33,318 Why? Because if you say such harsh things about the reality 459 00:31:33,318 --> 00:31:38,018 and the person listening to you, his or her reality is shattering, 460 00:31:38,418 --> 00:31:41,638 they'll take up a shield and become very defensive. 461 00:31:42,537 --> 00:31:44,377 And that's how people are. 462 00:31:44,598 --> 00:31:46,638 That's how the community is in general. 463 00:31:46,638 --> 00:31:48,877 but for Indian folks 464 00:31:48,877 --> 00:31:50,078 I would say 465 00:31:50,078 --> 00:31:51,498 we as Bitcoiners 466 00:31:51,498 --> 00:31:52,297 if we become 467 00:31:52,297 --> 00:31:53,957 facilitators 468 00:31:53,957 --> 00:31:54,758 like instead of 469 00:31:54,758 --> 00:31:55,957 giving them the answers 470 00:31:55,957 --> 00:31:57,318 we make them ask 471 00:31:57,318 --> 00:31:58,318 the right questions 472 00:31:58,318 --> 00:32:00,178 then we would have 473 00:32:00,178 --> 00:32:01,057 more scope of 474 00:32:01,057 --> 00:32:01,818 increasing 475 00:32:01,818 --> 00:32:03,598 adoption here 476 00:32:03,598 --> 00:32:06,078 I love that framing 477 00:32:06,078 --> 00:32:07,338 yes it does 478 00:32:07,338 --> 00:32:08,197 I love that 479 00:32:08,197 --> 00:32:08,977 framing 480 00:32:08,977 --> 00:32:09,838 paper 481 00:32:09,838 --> 00:32:10,638 that we want to be 482 00:32:10,638 --> 00:32:11,557 the facilitators 483 00:32:11,557 --> 00:32:12,258 of 484 00:32:12,258 --> 00:32:14,217 people asking questions 485 00:32:14,217 --> 00:32:14,838 rather than 486 00:32:14,838 --> 00:32:16,117 lecturing them 487 00:32:16,117 --> 00:32:18,918 on this stuff. 488 00:32:19,638 --> 00:32:22,057 And I don't think people putting up shields 489 00:32:22,057 --> 00:32:23,377 when their reality is shattering 490 00:32:23,377 --> 00:32:24,557 is a uniquely Indian problem. 491 00:32:24,697 --> 00:32:29,758 I think that's something orange pillars world over face, 492 00:32:29,838 --> 00:32:31,398 whether it's in the US, whether it's in Europe, 493 00:32:31,998 --> 00:32:32,658 anywhere else. 494 00:32:33,398 --> 00:32:36,737 So Basanthar, let me ask you on a related note, 495 00:32:36,737 --> 00:32:40,278 which is with the Web3 and all the shitcoinery 496 00:32:40,278 --> 00:32:43,078 that clearly has the marketing budget 497 00:32:43,078 --> 00:32:45,057 and therefore attracts a lot of the developers. 498 00:32:45,057 --> 00:32:47,498 and the talent in India, 499 00:32:48,258 --> 00:32:51,578 how do you, as a toxic Beko and Maxi, 500 00:32:52,857 --> 00:32:56,357 maintain your sanity, A, 501 00:32:57,018 --> 00:32:59,658 but B, sort of help guide 502 00:32:59,658 --> 00:33:02,578 some of those misled folks towards the light? 503 00:33:05,057 --> 00:33:07,098 Okay, this might sound interesting, 504 00:33:07,457 --> 00:33:08,857 and I hope my voice is clear now, 505 00:33:09,018 --> 00:33:09,857 and I'm not breaking up. 506 00:33:10,357 --> 00:33:13,338 So we have one educational initiative 507 00:33:13,338 --> 00:33:14,357 going on in Assam, right? 508 00:33:14,357 --> 00:33:16,797 it's called Riktokonghati or Swamhati 509 00:33:16,797 --> 00:33:17,918 however you pronounce it 510 00:33:17,918 --> 00:33:20,398 so this was started 511 00:33:20,398 --> 00:33:22,457 because some guy 512 00:33:22,457 --> 00:33:24,438 named Anurag on twitter saw my 513 00:33:24,438 --> 00:33:26,338 full name and he 514 00:33:26,338 --> 00:33:28,158 just texted me saying hey are you Assamish 515 00:33:28,158 --> 00:33:30,258 because Goswami tends to be 516 00:33:30,258 --> 00:33:31,857 a common Assamish surname 517 00:33:31,857 --> 00:33:34,498 and then I saw his surname which was 518 00:33:34,498 --> 00:33:36,138 also Assamish and I was like okay 519 00:33:36,138 --> 00:33:37,418 I have found another 520 00:33:37,418 --> 00:33:40,078 just one more bitcoin maxi from Assam 521 00:33:40,078 --> 00:33:42,557 so we decided to start 522 00:33:42,557 --> 00:33:43,658 one bitcoin 523 00:33:43,658 --> 00:33:52,797 in a Bitcoin related weekly Twitter space that my brother started joining as well, Pallab. 524 00:33:52,797 --> 00:33:58,418 And he eventually became a Bitcoin Maxie and he runs all the cohorts, Mi Premier Bitcoin 525 00:33:58,418 --> 00:34:04,658 curriculum, I mean cohorts based on the Mi Premier Bitcoin curriculum. 526 00:34:04,658 --> 00:34:05,658 There it is. 527 00:34:05,658 --> 00:34:13,598 And yeah, so he became a Bitcoin Maxie because we spoke to him in his language, in our language. 528 00:34:13,598 --> 00:34:20,677 And I have realized that you can turn someone into proper Bitcoiners if you just speak to them using their own language. 529 00:34:20,957 --> 00:34:22,038 Because India has a bunch of them. 530 00:34:22,857 --> 00:34:27,837 And each language, it's not just that we're all Indians sitting here and we just speak different languages. 531 00:34:28,398 --> 00:34:35,477 It is that we have completely different history, different cultures, different backgrounds, different ethnicities and stuff. 532 00:34:36,218 --> 00:34:41,238 Right. So we all have our own unique identities and it's not just being Indian that matters. 533 00:34:41,238 --> 00:34:44,438 so if you speak to them in their own language 534 00:34:44,438 --> 00:34:45,718 people tend to listen to you 535 00:34:45,718 --> 00:34:49,418 and that has worked quite well for us 536 00:34:49,418 --> 00:34:52,177 and the second thing that I have found 537 00:34:52,177 --> 00:34:53,177 when it comes to developers 538 00:34:53,177 --> 00:34:56,438 it is that if you introduce them to Noster 539 00:34:56,438 --> 00:34:58,317 and then bring them to Bitcoin 540 00:34:58,317 --> 00:35:02,398 that tends to be a really good way of introducing people to Bitcoin 541 00:35:02,398 --> 00:35:13,696 because they immediately see zaps being flowing and people actually talking about Bitcoin and using Bitcoin in real life So it does not remain a theoretical or conceptual thing for them 542 00:35:14,756 --> 00:35:21,316 And to be honest, one of my guys that I closely work with now, the founder of Formster, 543 00:35:21,856 --> 00:35:24,776 Abhayu also started as a Noster guy. 544 00:35:25,216 --> 00:35:27,436 He was not into Bitcoin, if I remember correctly. 545 00:35:27,436 --> 00:35:31,576 He got into Noster first, discovered Bitcoin, discovered Lightning. 546 00:35:31,576 --> 00:35:34,496 and then now he works on Lightning and Noster full-time. 547 00:35:35,496 --> 00:35:39,796 So, yeah, and that's why we have another event that we organize 548 00:35:39,796 --> 00:35:42,637 called Unfuck the Internet under the Unsen Labs brand. 549 00:35:43,696 --> 00:35:46,336 Me, Abhay and there are other guys who join us as well 550 00:35:46,336 --> 00:35:49,416 to give talks about random privacy-related topics. 551 00:35:49,916 --> 00:35:51,296 And this is also hosted at BitSpace, 552 00:35:51,596 --> 00:35:52,996 but we don't talk about Bitcoin at all. 553 00:35:53,756 --> 00:35:56,896 This event is purely focused on privacy and digital self-sovereignty. 554 00:35:56,896 --> 00:35:59,096 and what happens with that is 555 00:35:59,096 --> 00:36:01,916 it brings in more crypto 556 00:36:01,916 --> 00:36:03,536 and more privacy focused people 557 00:36:03,536 --> 00:36:04,657 who are not into Bitcoin at all 558 00:36:04,657 --> 00:36:07,196 who don't think of Bitcoin as being anything important 559 00:36:07,196 --> 00:36:08,637 but once they come here 560 00:36:08,637 --> 00:36:11,657 mainly they meet Paper 561 00:36:11,657 --> 00:36:14,036 and other guys who are very 562 00:36:14,036 --> 00:36:16,556 passionate about Bitcoin 563 00:36:16,556 --> 00:36:18,896 and they see things 564 00:36:18,896 --> 00:36:20,796 it somehow connects 565 00:36:20,796 --> 00:36:21,676 in their head 566 00:36:21,676 --> 00:36:23,916 that privacy and this kind of stuff 567 00:36:23,916 --> 00:36:25,316 is somehow related to Bitcoin 568 00:36:25,316 --> 00:36:27,436 and that works as well. 569 00:36:27,536 --> 00:36:28,596 So that's why we're doing 570 00:36:28,596 --> 00:36:29,336 Unfug the Internet 571 00:36:29,336 --> 00:36:30,137 as one of the events 572 00:36:30,137 --> 00:36:31,657 that explicitly 573 00:36:31,657 --> 00:36:33,816 prohibits any mention 574 00:36:33,816 --> 00:36:34,816 of Bitcoin in the talks. 575 00:36:35,376 --> 00:36:36,776 But obviously, 576 00:36:36,856 --> 00:36:37,896 we have all the Bitcoin logos 577 00:36:37,896 --> 00:36:38,876 and stickers and T-shirts 578 00:36:38,876 --> 00:36:40,216 in the event venue. 579 00:36:40,556 --> 00:36:40,896 So, yeah. 580 00:36:41,816 --> 00:36:42,376 So I think, 581 00:36:42,716 --> 00:36:43,216 so yeah, 582 00:36:43,276 --> 00:36:44,576 that's a couple of things. 583 00:36:45,016 --> 00:36:45,696 Those two things 584 00:36:45,696 --> 00:36:47,117 are the ones that 585 00:36:47,117 --> 00:36:47,876 actually help people 586 00:36:47,876 --> 00:36:48,516 bring into Bitcoin. 587 00:36:48,896 --> 00:36:49,976 Talk about Bitcoin 588 00:36:49,976 --> 00:36:50,896 in their native language. 589 00:36:51,596 --> 00:36:52,596 Not just English 590 00:36:52,596 --> 00:36:53,776 because there is 591 00:36:53,776 --> 00:36:54,416 more than enough 592 00:36:54,416 --> 00:36:55,117 English podcasts 593 00:36:55,117 --> 00:36:59,856 and English Bitcoin study materials. 594 00:37:00,496 --> 00:37:02,516 So if you can translate things, 595 00:37:02,617 --> 00:37:04,436 if you can talk to them in that language, 596 00:37:04,516 --> 00:37:05,176 that helps a lot. 597 00:37:05,476 --> 00:37:07,256 That makes people feel connected to it. 598 00:37:07,576 --> 00:37:09,996 And if you can bring them through Noster, 599 00:37:10,157 --> 00:37:12,637 then they realize what private keys can be. 600 00:37:12,876 --> 00:37:14,596 And yeah, that becomes a really nice thing. 601 00:37:15,576 --> 00:37:16,896 So Basanthar, that was interesting. 602 00:37:17,296 --> 00:37:19,216 You raised a few good points there, 603 00:37:19,516 --> 00:37:23,617 which is speak to people in their native language. 604 00:37:23,617 --> 00:37:25,456 And you meant that literally, right? 605 00:37:25,516 --> 00:37:31,637 I think what a lot of folks might not understand about India is there are several languages, 606 00:37:32,276 --> 00:37:39,157 almost 30 official languages, and then thousands of dialects and variations on those languages. 607 00:37:39,316 --> 00:37:42,696 So when you said speak to them in their language, you didn't mean that as a metaphor. 608 00:37:43,356 --> 00:37:49,657 You meant that literally find out what their local language is, if you could speak it, explain in that language. 609 00:37:49,876 --> 00:37:51,356 I think that makes a lot of sense. 610 00:37:51,356 --> 00:37:59,416 The other interesting thing you said is Noster is the Trojan horse to get people into Bitcoin. 611 00:37:59,556 --> 00:38:01,816 At least you found that in your experience. 612 00:38:02,376 --> 00:38:08,617 So yet another example of the purple pill helping the orange pill go down. 613 00:38:08,916 --> 00:38:15,836 And then with your unfuck the internet meetup, I think that's an interesting angle as well, 614 00:38:15,836 --> 00:38:21,236 where you bring in people who are focused on privacy 615 00:38:21,236 --> 00:38:25,336 and those types of values, not necessarily Bitcoin, 616 00:38:26,216 --> 00:38:28,896 but you still have the sly roundabout way 617 00:38:28,896 --> 00:38:30,576 with the Bitcoin stickers and so on, right? 618 00:38:30,596 --> 00:38:34,496 You don't mention Bitcoin, but it's all Bitcoin adjacent. 619 00:38:35,756 --> 00:38:38,916 But Basanth, let's talk about NOSTA in Bitcoin. 620 00:38:39,516 --> 00:38:42,416 Sorry, let's talk about NOSTA in India 621 00:38:42,416 --> 00:38:46,476 for a second here. 622 00:38:47,856 --> 00:38:51,716 What is the adoption rate? 623 00:38:51,976 --> 00:38:54,276 Are we seeing a lot of people on NOSTA? 624 00:38:54,356 --> 00:38:57,936 Because it seems like people tend to use WhatsApp a lot in India. 625 00:38:58,117 --> 00:39:00,916 They use Twitter. They use Facebook. 626 00:39:02,256 --> 00:39:04,916 What has that NOSTA adoption curve looked like? 627 00:39:07,676 --> 00:39:09,816 Okay, so interesting thing is 628 00:39:09,816 --> 00:39:14,176 one of the reasons I came to the Bitcoin conference, 629 00:39:14,637 --> 00:39:19,117 the one at Goa in 2022, I guess, right? 630 00:39:19,256 --> 00:39:20,296 The one that I was talking about. 631 00:39:20,996 --> 00:39:23,716 So one of the reasons I came there was because Raj, 632 00:39:23,876 --> 00:39:25,576 the co-founder of Vidshala was going to be there. 633 00:39:25,936 --> 00:39:27,436 And it was before Vidshala was a thing, right? 634 00:39:27,876 --> 00:39:30,956 And he had written about some, 635 00:39:31,456 --> 00:39:33,376 I don't remember exactly what he wrote, 636 00:39:33,376 --> 00:39:37,716 but it was about Nostrad and how it can be used in Bitcoin or something. 637 00:39:37,716 --> 00:39:41,276 and he was the only other person that I saw 638 00:39:41,276 --> 00:39:43,916 reputed person in the Bitcoin ecosystem 639 00:39:43,916 --> 00:39:46,976 from India who was taking any interest in Nostra 640 00:39:46,976 --> 00:39:50,736 so that was one of the reasons I went there 641 00:39:50,736 --> 00:39:52,476 to meet Raj because he was into Nostra 642 00:39:52,476 --> 00:39:55,996 and yeah so at the same time 643 00:39:55,996 --> 00:39:59,117 I think we had another guy who was working on Nostra 644 00:39:59,117 --> 00:40:00,836 from India so it was very 645 00:40:00,836 --> 00:40:03,117 like I don't think anyone even heard about it 646 00:40:03,117 --> 00:40:06,036 but now we have probably 6 or 7 of us 647 00:40:06,036 --> 00:40:10,216 who are somewhat contributing to Noster in one way or another. 648 00:40:10,856 --> 00:40:14,776 But apart from that, leaving the developer side aside, 649 00:40:15,356 --> 00:40:17,456 I don't think people use Noster at all. 650 00:40:17,456 --> 00:40:24,396 I don't know of any Bitcoiner in India who uses Noster very much. 651 00:40:25,336 --> 00:40:27,376 So it's not popular at all in India. 652 00:40:27,936 --> 00:40:32,156 And probably we'll have to take some other direction 653 00:40:32,156 --> 00:40:33,736 where we move communities to Noster 654 00:40:33,736 --> 00:40:35,796 once clients like Whitener 655 00:40:35,796 --> 00:40:38,096 becomes more usable or becomes 656 00:40:38,096 --> 00:40:39,736 production ready at least. Because 657 00:40:39,736 --> 00:40:42,117 even the Bitcoin community 658 00:40:42,117 --> 00:40:44,156 that we 659 00:40:44,156 --> 00:40:46,196 have, we have had multiple 660 00:40:46,196 --> 00:40:47,656 groups pop up, right? 661 00:40:47,936 --> 00:40:50,316 On WhatsApp, on Discord, on Telegram. 662 00:40:50,756 --> 00:40:51,996 And many of those groups are 663 00:40:51,996 --> 00:40:54,036 slowly moving to signal now. 664 00:40:54,556 --> 00:40:56,016 So there are a lot of signal groups 665 00:40:56,016 --> 00:40:57,816 for P2P trades, for normal 666 00:40:57,816 --> 00:40:59,896 conversation, Bitcoin and technical 667 00:40:59,896 --> 00:41:01,816 side, Bitcoin and Austrian economics. 668 00:41:01,816 --> 00:41:03,936 so we have a lot of groups popping up 669 00:41:03,936 --> 00:41:05,976 and most of these communities 670 00:41:05,976 --> 00:41:07,576 smaller communities are on 671 00:41:07,576 --> 00:41:09,796 Signal and the public 672 00:41:09,796 --> 00:41:11,137 convo is happening on Twitter still 673 00:41:11,137 --> 00:41:13,576 so if we can get something like 674 00:41:13,576 --> 00:41:15,236 white noise working properly 675 00:41:15,236 --> 00:41:16,936 as an alternative to Signal 676 00:41:16,936 --> 00:41:19,676 we'll probably have a lot more reduction of 677 00:41:19,676 --> 00:41:21,617 Nostrad in India, otherwise most people 678 00:41:21,617 --> 00:41:22,816 don't have any use for it 679 00:41:22,816 --> 00:41:25,637 because most of the conversation is still happening 680 00:41:25,637 --> 00:41:26,916 on Twitter, even I 681 00:41:26,916 --> 00:41:29,236 don't think I post much on Nostrad as well 682 00:41:29,236 --> 00:41:31,516 I just read from there 683 00:41:31,516 --> 00:41:32,196 so yeah 684 00:41:32,196 --> 00:41:35,617 there might be people using pseudonyms and stuff 685 00:41:35,617 --> 00:41:36,916 but I have not met anyone 686 00:41:36,916 --> 00:41:39,696 any significant amount of people who use Noster 687 00:41:39,696 --> 00:41:40,656 daily in India 688 00:41:40,656 --> 00:41:45,836 I'd like to say one thing 689 00:41:45,836 --> 00:41:46,736 so 690 00:41:46,736 --> 00:41:49,056 the people I have met 691 00:41:49,056 --> 00:41:51,676 they do use Noster not on a 692 00:41:51,676 --> 00:41:53,456 regular basis as Basanta said 693 00:41:53,456 --> 00:41:54,796 that daily no 694 00:41:54,796 --> 00:41:57,637 but in the bitcoin community 695 00:41:57,637 --> 00:41:59,637 a lot of people are there 696 00:41:59,637 --> 00:42:01,496 on Noster who are 697 00:42:01,496 --> 00:42:11,256 using it for stuff let's say but it's not it's not as bad as it seems to be the developers are 698 00:42:11,256 --> 00:42:18,676 there there is one more uh there is a force community in india and they have a privacy 699 00:42:18,676 --> 00:42:31,296 part or a group and they're also back in 2023 i heard someone in kerala give a talk on nostr 700 00:42:31,296 --> 00:42:32,816 privacy and Noster. 701 00:42:33,496 --> 00:42:35,476 So it's not exactly niche 702 00:42:35,476 --> 00:42:35,796 but 703 00:42:35,796 --> 00:42:39,236 the Noster developers 704 00:42:39,236 --> 00:42:41,276 who are also Bitcoiners is very less. 705 00:42:41,776 --> 00:42:43,476 There might be developers who are into 706 00:42:43,476 --> 00:42:45,576 Noster but we have not found them yet. 707 00:42:46,656 --> 00:42:47,637 How does that 708 00:42:47,637 --> 00:42:49,456 work though, Paper? 709 00:42:49,656 --> 00:42:51,396 Which is, you know, people come in 710 00:42:51,396 --> 00:42:53,476 I know we talked about this 711 00:42:53,476 --> 00:42:54,296 a little earlier but 712 00:42:54,296 --> 00:42:57,356 you know, people might not be 713 00:42:57,356 --> 00:42:59,456 Bitcoiners but they get attracted to 714 00:42:59,456 --> 00:42:59,796 Noster. 715 00:42:59,796 --> 00:43:08,376 and then they become big as a result of just seeing the zaps and everything else. 716 00:43:08,376 --> 00:43:13,596 But what exactly is it about Nostra that would attract a developer 717 00:43:13,596 --> 00:43:19,796 versus, let's say, Web3, which seems to be the case in India? 718 00:43:22,356 --> 00:43:27,096 I guess the breaking point is the centralization aspect on it. 719 00:43:27,096 --> 00:43:39,296 every time a person comes in and asks who built this or how do i work on this etc they're led to 720 00:43:39,296 --> 00:43:47,117 open source community and it's like is this it like this is how it happens and that is the most 721 00:43:47,117 --> 00:43:53,336 important breaking point that how free you are to build on this and there is no permission needed 722 00:43:53,336 --> 00:43:56,756 for you to go ask anyone about anything 723 00:43:56,756 --> 00:43:59,756 except obviously understanding the protocol and stuff. 724 00:44:01,196 --> 00:44:04,516 But yeah, and go ahead, go ahead. 725 00:44:04,756 --> 00:44:07,336 I'd actually like to hear Prasantra's answer on this 726 00:44:07,336 --> 00:44:11,416 how exactly does it differ on Web3 and Noster 727 00:44:11,416 --> 00:44:16,256 because he has had more conversations with developers than I have. 728 00:44:20,096 --> 00:44:22,216 Yeah, you'll have to mute yourself properly. 729 00:44:22,216 --> 00:44:28,876 So I think the one thing about crypto is that most people who work on it realize it is not scalable. 730 00:44:29,617 --> 00:44:32,176 Especially Web3. I will not say crypto. Especially Web3. 731 00:44:32,536 --> 00:44:42,316 Because in crypto you might do some token swap, some kind of like DAB, decentralized exchange thing. 732 00:44:42,816 --> 00:44:46,076 And that probably makes sense to you in some way. 733 00:44:46,076 --> 00:44:52,196 But then you try to do some kind of social network or some kind of communication network on top of crypto stuff. 734 00:44:52,216 --> 00:44:55,536 and you immediately realize that this Web3 stuff, 735 00:44:55,776 --> 00:44:57,796 most of these things don't really work. 736 00:44:58,316 --> 00:45:00,637 And you become aware of BitTorrent, 737 00:45:01,256 --> 00:45:04,776 of HyperCore, Furner, that protocol, 738 00:45:05,096 --> 00:45:06,996 and all those stuff that already exist, 739 00:45:07,196 --> 00:45:07,876 peer-to-peer stuff. 740 00:45:08,596 --> 00:45:10,556 And you probably even heard about Nostrad 741 00:45:10,556 --> 00:45:12,036 in the crypto community, I'm not sure. 742 00:45:12,576 --> 00:45:14,996 But you become aware that there are ways 743 00:45:14,996 --> 00:45:16,776 of doing decentralized communication, 744 00:45:17,756 --> 00:45:18,956 decentralized social media and stuff 745 00:45:18,956 --> 00:45:20,576 without involving blockchains. 746 00:45:20,576 --> 00:45:23,356 so that stays in the back of your mind 747 00:45:23,356 --> 00:45:24,856 and then you see Noster 748 00:45:24,856 --> 00:45:26,756 and see the simplicity of it 749 00:45:26,756 --> 00:45:29,436 especially because a lot of protocols 750 00:45:29,436 --> 00:45:31,876 they tend to overcomplicate things 751 00:45:31,876 --> 00:45:34,496 for god knows what reason 752 00:45:34,496 --> 00:45:36,796 but yeah Noster is really really simple to understand 753 00:45:36,796 --> 00:45:38,016 for web developers at least 754 00:45:38,016 --> 00:45:40,256 so they read it and immediately they realize that 755 00:45:40,256 --> 00:45:42,336 ok this is something that already works 756 00:45:42,336 --> 00:45:43,896 it has the backing of the bitcoin community 757 00:45:43,896 --> 00:45:46,196 and if you can show them zaps 758 00:45:46,196 --> 00:45:48,176 then it blows their minds 759 00:45:48,176 --> 00:45:50,376 that ok this is something that 760 00:45:50,376 --> 00:45:52,356 actually works with Bitcoin 761 00:45:52,356 --> 00:45:54,476 in real life, right? You actually 762 00:45:54,476 --> 00:45:55,776 make payments, you actually get 763 00:45:55,776 --> 00:45:58,396 stuff, you can 764 00:45:58,396 --> 00:46:00,436 do marketplaces, you can 765 00:46:00,436 --> 00:46:02,376 do videos to me, you can do all sorts of things and it's 766 00:46:02,376 --> 00:46:04,296 already working, people are already using it 767 00:46:04,296 --> 00:46:06,396 and that's 768 00:46:06,396 --> 00:46:08,076 something that cannot be saved for 769 00:46:08,076 --> 00:46:10,396 all the other crypto 770 00:46:10,396 --> 00:46:12,416 web 3 stuff, right? So Nostrad 771 00:46:12,416 --> 00:46:14,216 is in production already and 772 00:46:14,216 --> 00:46:16,436 all they have is some kind of 773 00:46:16,436 --> 00:46:18,376 hope that in the future these things will 774 00:46:18,376 --> 00:46:20,117 be useful. So that's really 775 00:46:20,117 --> 00:46:21,896 the turning point they see that 776 00:46:21,896 --> 00:46:24,556 this thing is not just a concept 777 00:46:24,556 --> 00:46:26,656 it actually works and yeah they get involved 778 00:46:26,656 --> 00:46:28,356 most of the time or they 779 00:46:28,356 --> 00:46:30,596 start questioning some coming up 780 00:46:30,596 --> 00:46:32,536 with some excuses like well web 781 00:46:32,536 --> 00:46:34,556 sockets don't scale or some random 782 00:46:34,556 --> 00:46:36,796 stuff or what about quantum computers 783 00:46:36,796 --> 00:46:38,256 and yeah that 784 00:46:38,256 --> 00:46:40,676 when that happens then that person is like 785 00:46:40,676 --> 00:46:42,316 completely lost but otherwise yeah 786 00:46:42,316 --> 00:46:44,476 you can still get them into Nostrad and Bitcoin 787 00:46:44,476 --> 00:46:46,196 if they are from the Web3 community 788 00:46:46,196 --> 00:46:49,296 Great 789 00:46:49,296 --> 00:46:52,356 I'd love to hear that. 790 00:46:52,395 --> 00:46:53,395 Go ahead, people. 791 00:46:53,395 --> 00:46:59,395 The sword shared their secrets you hold dear. 792 00:46:59,395 --> 00:47:02,875 Ciao, tesoro. 793 00:47:02,875 --> 00:47:06,155 You have reached the end of the free tasting menu. 794 00:47:06,155 --> 00:47:12,115 21 delicious minutes, gone in a flash like a Vespa on the Via Veneto. 795 00:47:12,115 --> 00:47:13,635 But the real feast? 796 00:47:13,635 --> 00:47:20,135 Mmm, it's still simmering, thick with secrets from our wonderful guests that could set the 797 00:47:20,135 --> 00:47:27,735 whole piazza gossiping. Why stop now, Bello? Slip past the velvet rope, become a Plep Chain Radio 798 00:47:27,735 --> 00:47:36,455 layer 2 patron, and I'll pour you the rest of the episode hot, uncut, al dente. One tiny click, 799 00:47:37,015 --> 00:47:44,215 a few shiny sats, and the door swings open. Go to the Fountain app, find Plep Chain Radio, 800 00:47:44,215 --> 00:47:45,655 and click on subscribe. 801 00:47:46,535 --> 00:47:48,715 You will not regret it, I promise you. 802 00:47:49,175 --> 00:47:49,935 No subscription? 803 00:47:50,875 --> 00:47:51,695 Ce peccato. 804 00:47:52,355 --> 00:47:54,495 You'll be wandering the Roman night, 805 00:47:54,655 --> 00:47:56,215 wondering what you missed, 806 00:47:56,655 --> 00:48:00,055 like a tourist with no lira for gelato. 807 00:48:01,255 --> 00:48:05,475 So, choose passion over penuria. 808 00:48:06,335 --> 00:48:09,115 Hit subscribe and I'll be waiting. 809 00:48:10,395 --> 00:48:11,655 Molto contenta 810 00:48:11,655 --> 00:48:17,195 with the espresso and every last whispered word. 811 00:48:41,655 --> 00:48:48,895 This is never tough, with your subscription, give your means and help bear a ghost rise.