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In a world where fiat trembles and the mempool never sleeps, one signal cuts through the noise.

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Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, Layer 2, your premium passage to the hidden rifts of Bitcoin

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culture. Buckle up and feel the voltage.

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Welcome gentle plebs to Pleb Chain Radio Layer 2 as we continue our India series.

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Today, we swap gavels for hardware wallets with Shreyan Joshi, law school grad turned Bitshala events maestro and former GetBit evangelist.

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will trace his leap from dusty courtrooms to orange-pilled classrooms,

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decode the lightning-speed rise of Bitcoin across India,

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and unpack the hurdles, hype, and hope of building on-chain in the world's largest democracy.

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If you are a premium subscriber to the show, first of all, thank you for your support,

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and you can listen to this entire episode.

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If you're not a subscriber, you will be able to listen to the first half.

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You can, of course, head over to the Fountain app, hit that subscribe button and get full access to this episode and all of our bonus content.

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Right, let's dive in.

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Shreyan, welcome to Plep Chain Radio Layer 2.

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Hey, Avi. Honored to be here.

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And I hope the audio is not getting disturbed by the wind.

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I'm in Pondicherry.

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I'm super excited to speak to you.

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Love it.

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Pondicherry is certainly a lovely place.

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And it's a pleasure to have you on the show.

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So Shreyan, tell us a little bit about yourself.

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I did mention that you have a law background.

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But just talk a little bit about that, your journey, and how you got where you are today.

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Right.

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so yeah the long story short is i graduated from nlu patna in 2021 and law was something that also

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happened to me naturally i was always interested in language like that was the reason i decided to

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pursue law and interestingly i might have heard of bitcoin never took it seriously in college at all

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like there is no conversations happening in indian law colleges about bitcoin so i might have come

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across it in some debates but I never quite had any introduction to it and I have been an internet

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nerd but it was actually after college that I discovered Antus Antonopoulos and I was working

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at a law firm at the time, an IPR law firm. Interestingly IPR is interesting to me, it is

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still interesting to me and I was working there for just six months when I discovered Andreas and

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this was the hype of the 2021 cycle by the way, this is the peak of the bull market, Bitcoin was

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ripping at 65 i discovered anderson danopolis out of nowhere just a random uvc and i ended up

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just being curious that this guy clearly is onto something i can sense it in his voice i can see it

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in his eyes and i wanted to understand what bitcoin is all about and the price was helping

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everyone around me was talking about it and i was also into ethereum at the time because andreas

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was a proponent of ethereum he wrote the mastering ethereum book and yeah the long story short is

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that made me question my entire life decisions that why did the monetary system affect us

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so deeply and why are not enough people talking about it.

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And I ended up taking a break.

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I approached my law firm to encourage them to look into smart contracts at the time I

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was into Ethereum, as I said.

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And yeah, they never took me seriously for better or worse.

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Maybe it's good that I never took smart contracts seriously because I was lucky enough to meet

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Bitcoiners and Bitcoin maximalists soon enough.

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and I quitted my job. It took me less than like four months to realize that I don't want to be

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doing what I'm doing and if it's not because of Bitcoin, I at least need to consider what Bitcoin

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is and need to dig deeper into what it is because I know the price was all the rage on mainstream

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media on Twitter as well but I had the tenacity to look deeper into things. I have been an internet

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nerd so I was diving into the Antus Intranopolis rabbit hole for the longest time at least for the

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first few months i was not on twitter that i was not active on twitter i was mostly just consuming

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his content and uh reading his uh like some some of his content on his website yeah that's the long

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story short i made a quick transition this is actually a leap of faith i took and i couldn't

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be more faithful yeah love it and andreas of course was an invaluable teacher to so many of us

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uh the way he explains things the clarity with which he speaks it's it is unfortunate uh about

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his Ethereum affinity, but it is what it is.

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He's still grateful for his teachings.

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So Shreyan, you mentioned smart contracts, and you see this happening, especially for

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folks in law or in related fields, in language as well, right?

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When they first get into this world, there is an allure of smart contracts.

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Wouldn't it be great if there was a way in which contracts, real-world contracts that govern real-world assets and rights and obligations of individuals engaged in commerce, if those could somehow incontrovertibly be represented on a database or, in this case, a blockchain?

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but what was it about it that you realized with smart contracts that you know what this

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doesn't work and i'd rather just focus on bitcoin or did you ever have that realization

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with smart contracts right that's a good question yeah that's a good question like i have not uh

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like nobles asked me this this uh this way i think how i will put it is that uh as a lawyer i have

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I've been studying contracts my entire training at the law school.

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So I was naturally curious to understand how the blockchain works,

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how these internet technologies work,

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and how we can use that to increase efficiency,

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optimize contracts, and reduce corruption.

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That was the promise of Bitcoin through the talks of Andreas.

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And just to touch upon that, I know it's unfortunate,

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but it's also just one of those Bitcoin things, right?

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That you have to slay your heroes.

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You have to do your own work.

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you can't rely on some hero to teach you about bitcoin you have to put in the hours to understand

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and integrate the learnings of bitcoin and the mantra is don't trust verify right so from that

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to actually start running a node for me and to realize how powerful this technology is that i

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don't need to rely when i'm using bitcoin on any third party whatsoever and i can verify transactions

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i can check my own uh i can run my own node i can check the blockchain from the genesis block

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so for that experience i think i'm also grateful that i ended up diving deeper because smart

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contracts are not working out but i think smart contracts is a loosely used term right because

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even bitcoin has contracts you can call spending conditions of bitcoin transactions a simple smart

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contract right because these spending conditions are enforced by the blockchain the bitcoin

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blockchain which is a decentralized emergent consensus network right which every 10 minutes

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reinforces what has been recorded in the ledger so it is a smart contract it's too simple for

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ethereum folks i guess i don't understand they have been pushing all sorts of narratives for the

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last four years and i've started following that for at least for the last two to three years i've

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i've like been uh enough vigilant about what their narratives are and i don't see any

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utility or significant movement there and bitcoin has all kinds of innovations happening right with

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R protocol with CTV with even lightning and taproot like there's all sorts of expressibility

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that's possible on bitcoin what my current focus is to see bitcoin being used as payments and that

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itself is something that needs to be addressed right because currently there's not enough vendors

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at least in India and merchants and even individuals who are using bitcoin day to day

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and that's a problem that I don't think currently requires smart contracts it just requires more

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plebs it requires more businesses to start accepting bitcoin and like i am not a developer

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but i know having been closely working with developers for the last one and a half years

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that there are ample room of opportunities for bitcoin to express more complex contracts and

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enable more spending conditions like lending protocols the entire financial system could be

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recreated on top of bitcoin and yeah that's exciting that's exciting because i think eventually

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all the like this is the base layer financial uh innovation for the world right this is not

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just money like how the simple metaphor is that bitcoin is internet of money not money on the

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money of the internet so i think eventually we'll see all sorts of applications we're already seeing

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that with stalker.io uh with lightning ventures they're building all sorts of applications on

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layer twos um yes it's a it's a it's a good practice i think it's a pre-market weeding

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everything out so i'm not against uh like people spinning up their own projects i'm against people

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being disingenuous and that's what i sensed with uh especially with ethereum solana and all the

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currencies that i had to become a toxic bitcoin maximalist that i'm not the kind of person if you

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meet me in person i'm probably the sweetest person in the room but i had to be very vigilant and be

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very opinionated about who i engage with how i talk about bitcoin because uh yeah there's another

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There's always a scammer near your shoulder.

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No, for sure.

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I want to stay on the topic of smart contracts for a bit, Shreyan,

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because you are a lawyer and this topic always fascinates me.

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So just for some context, I do have a shitcoin and blockchain past.

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In fact, I entered the space in 2016 into that early stage ICO mania

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that was beginning around then.

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And I worked at an enterprise blockchain company between 2016 and early 2017 and 2019.

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And that company had developed its own smart contracting language that was a Turing and complete language.

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It basically had some really nice computational abstractions for rights and obligations.

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those were first-class citizens in that language.

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It was a domain-specific language built on Haskell,

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built custom for these types of contracts So as a computer science experiment it was very interesting to me to think how you reduce legal language

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into computational abstractions.

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Having said that,

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one of the slow realizations

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I had over the course of this,

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and I wish this had been a faster realization

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and I'd become a toxic becker

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in 2017 itself, but I did not,

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was

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that when you're dealing

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with real world conditions, especially, you know, even back then, tokenization was all the rage,

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right? People were trying to tokenize real estate, they were trying to tokenize stocks. I know it's

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had a resurgence, again, now the real world assets, they were trying to tokenize supply

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chain stuff and healthcare claims, so on and so forth. I think the one issue I have, and I'd love

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to hear your opinion on this is, if you're dealing with real world assets, and you're representing

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it on a blockchain. Let's say it's even Bitcoin somehow, you figure out a way of representing

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these assets. I know people are doing it on liquid, maybe there's some L2 way of doing it.

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But isn't the issue that at the end of the day, if you're dealing with a real world contract

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involving physical meatspace things, those ultimately fall under the jurisdiction of whatever

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the law of the land is.

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So, yes, it's recorded on the blockchain.

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Yes, there's code that's executing,

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that's moving assets around.

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But those can always be disputed.

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Like a housing title does not exist on the blockchain.

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It exists in the real world, right?

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And that housing title is governed by the law

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of whichever land that house is in,

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that piece of property is in.

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So it doesn't matter whether you represent it

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on the blockchain or not.

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If it goes into litigation, you have to abide by whatever happens there.

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So, you know, that was a fundamental disconnect.

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And I'd love to hear your take on that.

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Right. Yeah, I think you answered it for the most part,

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that anything which is physical, which exists in the meat space outside of the blockchain,

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will ultimately require an enforcement authority, right?

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Because when there is a dispute for property rights over a certain real estate,

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whether that's a legal contract or deed or the physical object itself which is the land or

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the commercial property there eventually there will be eventually some authority which will

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need to enforce the ownership rights of the individual who has either been compromised of

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their property or has the claim to own that property and needs to prove that ownership

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right so for bitcoin it it is easy to solve right because bitcoin it exists as a digital asset it

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It exists as a record of transactions.

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For real world applications, I know that there are multiple protocols.

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Like you mentioned, Liquid, there's Arc, there's Taro assets using capital protocol.

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So there is a lot of experimentation.

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And like I said before, I'm not against experimentation or even spinning up your own networks.

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And I think this is where Bitshala comes in, where we are able to break down components of how these technologies work.

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so that anybody who is genuinely curious to solve these problems can actually go down that rabbit

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hole of understanding how bitcoin works how the blockchain works how hashing algorithms work

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how digital signatures work how you enforce consensus in decentralized networks what is the

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byzantine general problem so when you understand these concepts you you realize that there is

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ultimately requirement of a physical authority and it enters legal territory right and that's a

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separate separate domain of expertise and there are enough reasons to work on that like i think

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uk only last year recognized bitcoin as a digital property and they have started

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using it for alimony for collateral and for all sorts of financial instruments and i think same

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goes for us i think us was was of course the leader in the space so in india we're eventually

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going to see that we already have made some progress bitcoin is currently recognized as a

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virtual digital asset whether that's a good thing or not coming from an austrian economics lens

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is a separate question i think it's inevitable that we will have legal frameworks

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with respect to bitcoin and the work that all bitcoiners need to do is to engage with

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policymakers is to engage with your local representatives is to speak to your lawyers

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speak to your chartered accountants and help more people enter into the conversation bitcoin is

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ultimately a new paradigm in finance but it requires humans it requires humans from all

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domains of expertise or at least that's my bias that's where i come from that's where my work has

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been for the last few years and yeah i think to just to come back to the original question of

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how i see smart contracts evolving i think bitcoin will eventually see legal contracts of

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all kinds i think the first obvious one is inheritance and time locks i think more and more

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serious investors plebs bitcoiners hodlers will start to realize that when you have a significant

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amount of wealth single signature becomes a little too risky if someone still wants to do

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that more power to them i have nobody to tell them to how how to custody their wealth but what

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i'm realizing just from market research and experience is that more and more people want

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to use multi-sig and a lot of them don't want to do multi-sig by themselves they want a service

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like Unchained or Thea or Keeper who are providing these services and there are consultants like

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BTC Sessions like Bitcoin Search in India who are experts in handling custody solutions which

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sometimes could be too much to ask for someone who has a lot of wealth might or might not have

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the time to study Bitcoin so I think there are more than enough reasons for legal contracts to

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emerge and these will be escrow services these will be inheritance planning services and this

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is already a hustling bustling market right this is something we've already seen in us i'm sure

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there are services like this in europe and there's a new service in india which literally just started

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a few months ago at bitflex in march called bitcoin series this is where we launched it

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it's being headed by uh sara who's the co-founder of bichala and there's a lot of finance professionals

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in our network who have started engaging across domains like ca cfas tax consultants who have

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realized the opportunity and the potential of bitcoin to transform india and i think it's

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inevitable that india will have legal contracts with regards to bitcoin and that is the territory

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that i think requires conversations i i i might receive a lot of backlash for saying this but i

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think inevitably governments are entering bitcoin and the better approach to deal with that situation

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is to engage with them not to not to shy away from that conversation

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yeah agreed and it does and then you know on the topic of contracts just to close that out

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it makes complete sense if you're talking about a digitally native asset contained within the system

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in which the contracts are being generated so in the case of bitcoin inheritance bitcoin custody

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time locks what have you makes complete sense right it's it's fully self-consistent i think

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where the major question marks and red flags

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is if you are representing an external,

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an exogenous asset or property

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through a token on a ledger,

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on a digital ledger.

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And that, yes, maybe there are happy parts scenarios

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in which it works,

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but there are several unhappy parts

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where there will be a lot of pain there.

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So, Sreyan, you'd mentioned Bitshala.

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And for our non-Indian listeners,

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of which there are plenty,

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can you explain what Bitshala is because it seems to be the focal point in India sort of

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the center of gravity for everything Bitcoin related yes yep yep yep I think you took that

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out of my mouth I was about to say something on the lines of how Bitshala has become a community

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of Bitcoiners coming together and providing education across domains so Bitshala is an

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organization focused on technical education. We onboard builders and developers to work into

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Bitcoin force. And we have a very targeted focus towards India and Southeast Asia. We have students

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and fellows from across the world. We encourage everyone to join the conversation, participate in

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our cohorts, contribute to projects that a lot of our maintainers are already working on.

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Our focus has been India because it's mostly an organic collection of Bitcoiners who have come

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together and realize that there is a need for india to contribute to bitcoin force because the

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regulation space will take its own sweet time right there are enough companies in india who

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are solving that problem currently thankfully touch wood india has not faced severe backlash

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from the state uh this happened in 2018 and thankfully like some people from our network who

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are uh who are the pioneers of shaping those regulations to the benefit of bitcoin uh they

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have been closely working with bichala as well and so bichala is a grassroots initiative you can

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check out check us out at bichal.org our main action is on discord this is where we hang out

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and it has more than i don't know the exact numbers but more than i think uh around about

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500 000 people who are on the discord server and we are organizing educational activities across

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domains we do weekly club sessions so on mondays we have latest in off-tech session which is headed

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by bala and this is where we cover the optic newsletter this is a weekly newsletter which is

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released by bitcoin mailing list and delving bitcoin and this covers all the technical

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advancements that have happened in the last one week and bala is an expert who is able to help us

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understand those topics in depth and he covers that every monday so whoever is a developer or someone

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like me who's understanding bitcoin conceptually and wants to understand what are the new developments

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happening you can join in interact it's a very fun interactive session uh you don't have to be an

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expert you just have to ask the right questions and just listen in i think the power of the lurker

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is something i talk about a lot they don't underestimate the lurker the lurker is very

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powerful so if you're very new you're shy please just feel free to drop in and just listen into the

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conversation of the questions you can participate through chat as well so we organize weekly sessions

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monday is the biggest highlight but we also have other sessions like tuesday trad fan bitcoin this

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is where Diganth and Saurav come in. So if you're not technical at all, if you're not interested in

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what's happening in Bitcoin FOSS and you're interested in Bitcoin financials, you can join

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Tuesday sessions. Diganth is the hero there. Diganth has been leading this for the past few months

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and he has been a superhero when it comes to that. He's going to Lugano in September with Plan B. He

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was one of the top five students in their business course. And on Wednesday, I'm leading Wednesday

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reading club this is where i i think i i the way i put it is that i communicate this indian bitcoin

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story uh like my focus on india i look at myself as someone who can make and make a deep tent for

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bitcoin ecosystem in india specifically so i focus on collecting resources across domain from bitcoin

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and contextualizing it for india as much as i can of course bitcoin is a global network it does not

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discriminate on basis of your uh workplace so that not the criteria and yeah thursday we have PR review club if you a serious developer and you want to understand how Bitcoin core contributions work Fridays are the cohorts So cohorts are separate from clubs

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So Monday to Thursday, we have clubs.

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On Fridays, we have what we call cohorts.

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These are more structured learning material.

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So whoever is serious about working in Bitcoin

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as a professional can join one of the four cohorts.

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And these are like we take you from zero to hero.

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So mastering Bitcoin, that's like the Bible of Bitcoin.

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If you're new to Bitcoin,

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Anderson Ternopoulos,

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Mastering Bitcoin

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or Grokking Bitcoin

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by Kale Ross and Brom,

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this is where you start.

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And you can go through the book

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at your own time.

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Every week,

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we collect together

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and discuss questions

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and help each other out

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answer questions.

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There is no examination.

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This is not a test.

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This is supposed to help you out

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wherever you are

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on your learning course.

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And we have more advanced courses

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like Learning Bitcoin

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from the Command Lines,

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Bitcoin Protocol Development

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and Programming Bitcoin,

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which is starting 8th August.

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So if any of the listeners

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are aspiring builders

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or developers in Bitcoin,

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I would highly encourage

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to sign up for the cohort on 8th August.

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You'll get to interact with the rest of the BitChala team.

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You'll get to interact with all the TAs.

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TAs are teaching assistants who have been contributing

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to multiple Bitcoin projects,

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and they are there for assisting your learning.

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So this is the overall summary of BitChala.

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Other than that, we are also doing physical events.

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This started only last year.

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We started doing a lot of events in Bangalore with BitDevs,

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and that's because Bangalore has a lot of Bitcoin developers

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who are already living there.

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We've also done events in Chennai, in Goa,

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That's where the most gravity is.

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And we have done some one-off events in Delhi, some in Mumbai as well because of Satoshi Circle, which is a community Amol is leading in Mumbai.

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And we're looking to scale.

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This year is going to be about doing much more, doing outreach programs, doing courses with colleges.

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We're already speaking to a few colleges in Chennai, a few colleges in Goa, some in Bangalore as well.

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And very early days, but we're designing the structure for college students because I know for college students, it could be too intimidating to enter Bitcoin.

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Bitcoin requires so many levels of exposure and thinking, right?

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So it's not always easy for a 19-year-old, 20-year-old to understand Bitcoin.

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But that's what we have taken on.

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We want to reduce the entry to barrier.

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And if somebody is already keen, they can drop onto our Discord and get on straight away.

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Is there one physical hub for Bitshala or is it spread across the country?

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Yes, yes, that's the natural follow-up question. This is an update from Bitspace. So we started

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Bitspace last year in, I think it's been one year now. I think it started last year in June.

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Yeah, I think in June. So Bitspace is where the mecca of Indian Bitcoin ecosystem is. Bitspace

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is a co-working space based in HSR. HSR is one of the hustling centers of startups in India,

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in bangalore at the heart of the city and that's where we've been doing our meetups our bit devs

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and our impromptu sessions as well whenever a bitcoiners are dropping down in bangalore who

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is part of the networks we have a have a meeting with them we go play badminton with them we

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organize lunches and dinners with them and we've been doing bit devs religiously every month so

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someone who is a technical speaker we ensure that the rest of the bangalore gets to know about it

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and whoever is new to Bitcoin, we create an event where they can engage with material on a beginner level.

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And if you are someone who is serious about development, we cover hands-on workshop with the expert as well.

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So Bitspace, that's the place where I know Bitcoiners can get too lonely in working in their own domains at their homes.

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That's why we highly encourage people to go to meetups and go to events.

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And that's where I come in. This is the new challenge that I have taken on with events.

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and yeah BitSpace is the place where we collect in Bangalore

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but we've all also started doing events in Chennai

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Bala is leading that in Goa we have a lot of BitCoiners in Goa

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who are closely working with BitChalla

349
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Flabs to get a strong Bitcoin Beach and with BitFlebs

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I think it's the culmination of all of that that

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all the BitCoiners of India collected one place

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and yeah celebrated

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And how is BitChalla funded?

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Is it through donations or do you have a membership fee?

355
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right so we we are operating on uh what are called grants and these grants come from funding

356
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agencies who are donating bitcoin force education and development so these organized organizations

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are hrf open sats btrust spiral brink so chain code labs is uh an education partner they were

358
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the ones who started doing these study material cohorts and they were the ones we were inspired by

359
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They started doing this, I think, in 2019 or 2020.

360
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And they were doing this as a residency program in New York, I believe.

361
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And after COVID hit, they started doing online sessions.

362
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And that's where Raj and Saurabh were part of some of their activities.

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And they started doing their own activities in 2022 in India.

364
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So Chaincode Lab was actually the first material that we started to cover as cohort material.

365
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And over time, we have created our own exercises, our own methods of teaching and engagement.

366
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and yeah we are relying currently on open source grants there is no way to monetize open source

367
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but i think the simplest way i can put it is that open source software is poetry you can't monetize

368
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poetry you write poetry for the love of it and i might not be the right person to understand the

369
00:27:46,820 --> 00:27:51,460
nuances of open source but what i know is that there is freedom to use that software there is

370
00:27:51,460 --> 00:27:56,360
freedom to fork that software there is mit creative commons license so you can't close source it

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That's the ingenuity and significance of open source.

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And we ensure that our practices with education, with our cohorts are free and open source.

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So we never charge for any of our cohorts or activities.

374
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We only ask for people to be sincere in their efforts and be genuine in approaching us.

375
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And we help people find full-time opportunities once they are serious and they have shown their proof of work.

376
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So this is, again, where HRF OpenSAT's Petrust entered.

377
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So I can perhaps share some experiences from our fellows.

378
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But that's the long story short.

379
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,920
This is how Bitshala is funding its operations.

380
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:46,060
It's interesting that it's the usual list of suspects, OpenSAT, Spiral, HRF, and others.

381
00:28:46,060 --> 00:28:49,680
and if you sort of trace it back,

382
00:28:49,780 --> 00:28:54,540
it all always goes back to two or three individuals,

383
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Jack Dorsey being one of them

384
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and their couple of others, right?

385
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Benefactors like that.

386
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Is India at a point yet

387
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where there can be an equivalent of Jack Dorsey,

388
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meaning the funding would come

389
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from an Indian philanthropic organization?

390
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:13,680
Right.

391
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,080
Yeah, that's a pressing question

392
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:20,520
that we have been thinking about currently the answer is no like unfortunately we don't have

393
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:27,160
enough leverage in india to be able to incentivize people to donate into bitcoin force that's an

394
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,360
active research area problem i'm sure someone will be able to figure it out currently i don't think

395
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:37,640
we have made any progress in that direction honestly that's also not the blocker i think

396
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,760
bitcoin force is an exemplification of bitcoin the economy that bitcoin is a global marketplace

397
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If you are talented, if you are serious about your work, we don't ask for your name.

398
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We don't ask for your nationality.

399
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:53,180
When we say we are focused on Indian builders, it does not mean that we discriminate anyone

400
00:29:53,180 --> 00:29:55,1000
because we end up meeting most of our builders.

401
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:57,760
That's what the experience has been.

402
00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,600
But we don't care about that, right?

403
00:29:59,620 --> 00:30:00,900
You can just be a Discord bot.

404
00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:03,360
You can just contribute being a bot.

405
00:30:03,460 --> 00:30:04,500
We never have to ask your name.

406
00:30:05,180 --> 00:30:08,080
And currently, we have not faced challenges with resources.

407
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,620
anybody who has been seriously working on bitcoin with our cohorts has been able to find opportunities

408
00:30:13,620 --> 00:30:19,660
but yeah this is a pressing problem we eventually want to have indian companies indian businesses

409
00:30:19,660 --> 00:30:25,200
indian toddlers give back to the ecosystem i think it's a matter of time bitcoin is still 17 years

410
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,640
old i think five years from now 10 years from now we will see a lot of indian companies a lot of

411
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,620
indian entrepreneurs being able to build businesses in india when the regulations start to open up as

412
00:30:33,620 --> 00:30:37,320
well there's a lot of activity in business that will require open source software open source

413
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:44,420
software is not just like charity right it's serious engineering so it requires a group of

414
00:30:44,420 --> 00:30:48,140
dedicated businesses to also understand the significance of maintaining their software

415
00:30:48,140 --> 00:30:53,660
for their own business requirements it's not just that they are giving back to the bitcoin ecosystem

416
00:30:53,660 --> 00:30:58,700
as a token of appreciation it's required for businesses to be able to use that software

417
00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:02,360
customize according to their own needs and you need a group of developers who understand that

418
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,280
domain so eventually i think it's going to be the case but like you rightly like you rightly put

419
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:12,480
It's the usual suspects that are currently supporting the ecosystem worldwide.

420
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:13,440
Not just with Shala.

421
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,800
This is true for, at least to the best of my awareness,

422
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,480
all the education initiatives across the world.

423
00:31:21,580 --> 00:31:24,340
Across the world, most of Nostra development as well,

424
00:31:24,460 --> 00:31:26,200
a lot of Bitcoin core funding.

425
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:28,1000
Yeah, we need a little bit.

426
00:31:28,1000 --> 00:31:35,600
It'll be nice if there was more diversification from that core group of funders.

427
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:40,960
so Shreyan this is the second episode of our India series

428
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,960
Plep Chain Radio Layer 2 India series

429
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,560
in the first episode I spoke with Basanta Goswami and Paper Psych

430
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:55,060
and they had mentioned a conference in India in November of 2022

431
00:31:55,060 --> 00:32:02,860
which to them was a seminal moment in Bitcoin adoption in India

432
00:32:02,860 --> 00:32:04,260
was that when

433
00:32:04,260 --> 00:32:06,740
well first of all are you familiar with

434
00:32:06,740 --> 00:32:08,880
which conference they were mentioning the one in

435
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:09,860
November 22

436
00:32:09,860 --> 00:32:12,740
2022 and was that when

437
00:32:12,740 --> 00:32:14,1000
Bitshala and all of these other efforts

438
00:32:14,1000 --> 00:32:16,060
took off

439
00:32:16,060 --> 00:32:18,880
yes yes

440
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,960
yes yes and yes like that's where

441
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,980
I met Basinthian PaperSec as well

442
00:32:22,980 --> 00:32:24,700
that's where I met Raj as well

443
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:26,980
that's where I met Saurav as well that's where I met Abhilash

444
00:32:26,980 --> 00:32:29,020
and most

445
00:32:29,020 --> 00:32:30,680
of the Bitcoiners from Indian ecosystem

446
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,600
that's where the momentum started

447
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,500
like huge shout out to Abhilash, B4I, Anand.

448
00:32:36,060 --> 00:32:38,100
They put on the conference in 2022.

449
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:39,900
I think this was actually bear market.

450
00:32:40,060 --> 00:32:41,560
If I remember correctly, I might be wrong,

451
00:32:41,980 --> 00:32:45,480
but this was when Bitcoin was, I think, 30K, 35K.

452
00:32:45,980 --> 00:32:47,940
The price had like dropped significantly.

453
00:32:48,580 --> 00:32:48,600
I was...

454
00:32:49,220 --> 00:32:55,100
Shreyan, it was the absolute bottom of the bear.

455
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,860
That was when the Sandbankman-free stuff was going down.

456
00:32:59,860 --> 00:33:00,200
Oh shit, right.

457
00:33:00,380 --> 00:33:00,660
Yes.

458
00:33:00,660 --> 00:33:01,560
Oh my God.

459
00:33:01,620 --> 00:33:02,020
Oh my God.

460
00:33:02,020 --> 00:33:04,220
I actually have a story. I actually have a story related to this.

461
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,440
But sorry, go ahead. Sorry for interrupting you.

462
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:17,180
No, no. And I'd mentioned this when Basanta and PaperSec mentioned on the episode that it's remarkable that that happened at the absolute bottom of the bear market.

463
00:33:17,180 --> 00:33:22,060
I mean, interestingly enough, I was at Pacific Bitcoin in L.A. when that was happening.

464
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:28,420
And we had the biggest party because it was, you know, all the trash was getting washed out.

465
00:33:28,740 --> 00:33:29,580
But sorry, carry on.

466
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,900
Right. Right, right, right.

467
00:33:32,020 --> 00:33:43,729
Yeah beautiful I actually remember now I tell you a quick story This was the first conference in India to the best of my knowledge because before that if there were any conferences they were mostly just my shitcoiners

468
00:33:44,049 --> 00:33:47,429
and I did not even bother to come join them.

469
00:33:47,850 --> 00:33:51,969
So this conference was like a huge shout-out to Abhilash, Anand, and the B4i team.

470
00:33:52,350 --> 00:33:54,209
This conference was probably the first conference

471
00:33:54,209 --> 00:33:57,309
where all the builders, developers of India gathered at one place.

472
00:33:57,870 --> 00:34:01,090
And from across the country, I think I remember meeting people from Assam,

473
00:34:01,090 --> 00:34:06,429
like Basantai from Assam, people from Kolkata, Rajasthan, Haryana, Chennai, where not, right?

474
00:34:07,009 --> 00:34:13,149
And to go through that experience, and I think I was sharing this experience of after the conference ended,

475
00:34:13,209 --> 00:34:15,510
I was so overwhelmed just spending time with Bitcoiners.

476
00:34:15,590 --> 00:34:21,090
I decided to just take some time off, like we just go to Ajkras and meet people in the normie world.

477
00:34:21,769 --> 00:34:28,749
And the Sam Bank Freedman news came in, like that's where I lost my mind that how is this happening?

478
00:34:28,749 --> 00:34:33,030
how is this thing happening literally just one day after the conference ended

479
00:34:33,030 --> 00:34:35,510
and Bitcoin is crashing left and right.

480
00:34:35,709 --> 00:34:38,709
Normies are anyway criticizing us for doing what we're doing

481
00:34:38,709 --> 00:34:42,249
and it does not help that a major exchange is crashing

482
00:34:42,249 --> 00:34:45,629
right at the time that India is organizing its first Bitcoin conference.

483
00:34:47,249 --> 00:34:50,249
But yeah, beautiful experience that has literally changed my life.

484
00:34:50,389 --> 00:34:53,249
I've been lucky enough to meet people that I'm currently working with,

485
00:34:53,310 --> 00:34:54,530
that I currently call my friends,

486
00:34:55,090 --> 00:34:56,749
that are building their own projects

487
00:34:56,749 --> 00:35:00,490
and spreading Bitcoin across the nation.

488
00:35:02,310 --> 00:35:06,070
Did BitShala come out of that conference

489
00:35:06,070 --> 00:35:07,869
or did it exist before then?

490
00:35:09,129 --> 00:35:11,369
No, BitShala did not exist before that.

491
00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:13,470
BitShala did come out of that conference.

492
00:35:13,810 --> 00:35:15,830
So it was Raj and Saurabh.

493
00:35:15,929 --> 00:35:18,030
Raj and Saurabh knew each other from before

494
00:35:18,030 --> 00:35:21,090
and Raj was heading the tech stage at the conference.

495
00:35:21,729 --> 00:35:24,629
And this was most of the speakers

496
00:35:24,629 --> 00:35:25,889
was Summer of Bitcoin graduates.

497
00:35:25,889 --> 00:35:29,209
Summer of Bitcoin was a project that I already started, I think, one year before.

498
00:35:29,810 --> 00:35:31,070
And it's a beautiful project.

499
00:35:31,550 --> 00:35:33,369
Go check it out, summerofbitcoin.org.

500
00:35:33,950 --> 00:35:39,830
It's a project for Indian college students, global college students, my bad.

501
00:35:40,269 --> 00:35:43,669
This is a program for college students looking to intern in Bitcoin Force projects.

502
00:35:44,249 --> 00:35:47,950
And that's where a lot of Indian builders, developers have come in.

503
00:35:48,530 --> 00:35:54,149
And the conference itself was a gathering of all the developers for a separate tech stage.

504
00:35:54,149 --> 00:35:57,010
we had like a two-day session with a lot of talks,

505
00:35:57,109 --> 00:35:58,609
a lot of demos, a lot of walkthroughs.

506
00:35:59,010 --> 00:36:02,570
And that's where Raj and Richala spawned up.

507
00:36:02,669 --> 00:36:05,550
Like that's where we started an online service on Zulip first.

508
00:36:05,889 --> 00:36:06,609
We were not on Discord.

509
00:36:06,769 --> 00:36:09,169
We started with Zulip and we started doing cohorts,

510
00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:12,109
I think in 2023, I think early to mid 2023,

511
00:36:12,249 --> 00:36:15,169
I think February, March, like after conference,

512
00:36:15,269 --> 00:36:16,950
maybe three months after conference,

513
00:36:17,050 --> 00:36:18,209
two to three months after the conference.

514
00:36:18,669 --> 00:36:20,229
And we eventually moved to Discord

515
00:36:20,229 --> 00:36:23,769
because that's where most of the Bitcoin education communities are.

516
00:36:24,149 --> 00:36:33,970
And since then, Bitshala has been proactive in finding more BitConners in India and worldwide and doing more education activities.

517
00:36:36,669 --> 00:36:41,229
Are there any other hubs in India other than Bitshala?

518
00:36:42,790 --> 00:36:45,149
So currently, there are no physical hubs.

519
00:36:45,530 --> 00:36:49,310
There is John Gatti, which is being led by Anurag and Pallabh.

520
00:36:49,609 --> 00:36:51,950
And they are doing grassroots education in Assam.

521
00:36:51,950 --> 00:36:55,909
and they have a place in Tita Bur where they organize monthly meetups

522
00:36:55,909 --> 00:37:01,869
and they also have a full node being run and maintained by Anurag and Palla

523
00:37:01,869 --> 00:37:06,129
and that's where they are conducting a lot of their classes, a lot of their educational activities.

524
00:37:07,169 --> 00:37:08,490
Plebs Together Strong is another one.

525
00:37:08,609 --> 00:37:12,810
Aaron has been doing classes and education with school students,

526
00:37:13,530 --> 00:37:19,970
with educating local communities as well, like sports persons, bars, cafes, barbers

527
00:37:19,970 --> 00:37:26,030
and spreading Bitcoin in Goa through his initiative.

528
00:37:26,749 --> 00:37:29,269
In terms of physical basis, BitSpace is the only one.

529
00:37:29,790 --> 00:37:33,470
We have plans to do more events across other cities

530
00:37:33,470 --> 00:37:36,070
with Bitcoiners renting out spaces and doing more classes.

531
00:37:36,769 --> 00:37:40,669
But BitSpace currently is the only place where Bitcoiners gather.

532
00:37:42,249 --> 00:37:45,369
That's what I call the Maccalf Indian Bitcoin ecosystem right now.

533
00:37:47,409 --> 00:37:48,109
Got it.

534
00:37:48,109 --> 00:37:55,450
You know, in India, there seems to be, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, Shreyan, there seems to be a lot of shitcoinery.

535
00:37:55,810 --> 00:37:59,649
A lot of the shitcoin founders are Indian.

536
00:37:59,790 --> 00:38:08,089
I mean, the one example that comes to mind immediately is Polygon or Matic or Matic or whatever they call themselves now.

537
00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:11,149
They've probably rebranded the Ethereum layer too.

538
00:38:11,709 --> 00:38:13,050
But there are others as well.

539
00:38:13,050 --> 00:38:21,749
So is this true that there is far more crypto and shitcoin activity in India than there's Bitcoin activity?

540
00:38:23,350 --> 00:38:25,450
Right. I think it's true worldwide.

541
00:38:26,249 --> 00:38:29,490
I am not sure on the exact numbers, but it is definitely true in India.

542
00:38:29,609 --> 00:38:34,850
It's a very concerning thing that a lot of our attention as a country is going towards that.

543
00:38:34,850 --> 00:38:39,709
Because a lot of developers I meet across events are working in Solana, Avalon, whatnot.

544
00:38:39,709 --> 00:38:45,709
not like some some shitcoin project spins up every every week and like i intentionally call

545
00:38:45,709 --> 00:38:51,389
them shitcoin like i'm pro experimentation i have nothing against any of them personally this is not

546
00:38:51,389 --> 00:38:56,709
a personal judgment this is just so that people understand the significance of what bitcoin is

547
00:38:56,709 --> 00:39:02,669
solving and so that more people can put in their energies where they are actually gaining value

548
00:39:02,669 --> 00:39:07,790
even for themselves like most of the projects that i've seen people work on after three years

549
00:39:07,790 --> 00:39:12,169
they anyway start to work on bitcoin like this is countless experiences of people that i've spoken

550
00:39:12,169 --> 00:39:17,510
to who work on these ecosystems they realize that there's nothing happening there they make some

551
00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:22,070
money this is where they get the early college students it's very easy to like find a college

552
00:39:22,070 --> 00:39:26,609
student who is 19 year old pay him money for just writing solidity which is nothing but just

553
00:39:26,609 --> 00:39:33,330
uh like basic python and javascript which nobody really even needs to learn they are mostly just

554
00:39:33,330 --> 00:39:34,550
marketing-based exercises.

555
00:39:35,290 --> 00:39:37,589
And it's unfortunate that there's a lot of talent

556
00:39:37,589 --> 00:39:39,149
being going in that direction.

557
00:39:39,149 --> 00:39:41,749
But I think the only way that Bitcoin has solved problems

558
00:39:41,749 --> 00:39:43,129
is by solving problems.

559
00:39:43,249 --> 00:39:44,570
We have solved that problem with Chala.

560
00:39:44,689 --> 00:39:46,950
We're solving that problem with grassroots education,

561
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:48,129
with putting out content.

562
00:39:48,609 --> 00:39:49,310
Like Indian voices,

563
00:39:49,450 --> 00:39:51,909
I think this is where Indian voices become incredibly important.

564
00:39:52,389 --> 00:39:54,689
Because for me, it was the Bitschala team, right?

565
00:39:54,749 --> 00:39:56,369
For me, it was Andres Intranopoulos,

566
00:39:56,589 --> 00:39:58,589
Durjiji, and then the Bitschala team.

567
00:39:58,689 --> 00:40:01,889
That took me to make Bitcoin real for me.

568
00:40:01,889 --> 00:40:03,990
Like make it more like sweaty.

569
00:40:04,209 --> 00:40:05,550
It's like I want Bitcoin to be real.

570
00:40:05,629 --> 00:40:08,050
I want Bitcoin to feel like I am part of something bigger.

571
00:40:08,050 --> 00:40:10,810
It's not just an internet online phenomena, right?

572
00:40:11,229 --> 00:40:13,089
So for that to happen, I needed Indian voices.

573
00:40:13,249 --> 00:40:14,850
I was very lucky to find the Bichara team.

574
00:40:15,209 --> 00:40:16,429
I'm lucky to speak to you right now.

575
00:40:16,470 --> 00:40:18,269
I'm lucky to speak to Santosh, Anuja.

576
00:40:18,729 --> 00:40:22,790
And this is where in the importance of voices from diverse backgrounds,

577
00:40:23,010 --> 00:40:27,089
diverse cultures, diverse walks of life become so significant.

578
00:40:27,669 --> 00:40:30,070
People expressing Bitcoin in their vernacular languages,

579
00:40:30,070 --> 00:40:34,629
people expressing bitcoin as art i think it's incredibly important that people understand that

580
00:40:34,629 --> 00:40:39,669
bitcoin does not take itself too seriously because we have enough serious suits talking about money

581
00:40:39,669 --> 00:40:43,030
who are scamming you left and right we don't have enough people who can express

582
00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:47,350
beauty and bitcoin enables you to do that because bitcoin is a commissionless network

583
00:40:47,350 --> 00:40:53,830
if you're able to educate people using beautiful artifacts content music you name it you are able

584
00:40:53,830 --> 00:40:59,269
to spread awareness of the most important technology that we're living through currently right so

585
00:40:59,269 --> 00:41:04,209
So, yeah, I think just to like come down to the original question again,

586
00:41:04,729 --> 00:41:09,790
India has a lot of projects which are solving for problems which do not exist.

587
00:41:10,429 --> 00:41:13,249
And whether that's for bad or good, I don't know.

588
00:41:13,290 --> 00:41:16,089
Like some people argue that they are doing the top of the funnel work

589
00:41:16,089 --> 00:41:19,669
because it's difficult to incentivize Bitcoin education, right?

590
00:41:19,669 --> 00:41:21,629
Because Bitcoin is scarce.

591
00:41:22,030 --> 00:41:25,229
Like anybody who is going out of their way to educate another human being

592
00:41:25,229 --> 00:41:28,269
is doing that because they find Bitcoin important and interesting

593
00:41:28,269 --> 00:41:29,909
and worthy of talking about.

594
00:41:30,450 --> 00:41:33,589
So crypto scams come and go every two to four years.

595
00:41:33,689 --> 00:41:34,929
We have new projects coming up.

596
00:41:35,290 --> 00:41:38,350
But Bitcoin fundamentals protocol remains solid and resilient.

597
00:41:38,589 --> 00:41:39,889
And it's only growing over time.

598
00:41:39,970 --> 00:41:41,070
The volatility is going down.

599
00:41:41,589 --> 00:41:45,909
More and more builders, entrepreneurs, policymakers are entering the space.

600
00:41:46,389 --> 00:41:48,350
And I'm already noticing this, by the way.

601
00:41:48,350 --> 00:41:53,950
Only in the last four months, I have noticed that more and more students are approaching us organically.

602
00:41:54,229 --> 00:41:57,109
More colleges have started approaching us out of their own accord.

603
00:41:57,109 --> 00:42:01,350
we did not even reach out to a lot of the programs and because they're realizing that we've been doing

604
00:42:01,350 --> 00:42:06,389
this for the last two and a half years now and uh like proof of work speaks for itself right we

605
00:42:06,389 --> 00:42:12,149
don't need to market when something is working and bitcoin is working bitcoin the protocol remains

606
00:42:12,149 --> 00:42:16,550
true regardless of whether there's a new crypto project coming in and that's where our strength

607
00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:22,149
is our strength is in fundamentals in educating people on how bitcoin works and over time the

608
00:42:22,149 --> 00:42:27,830
right allies founders and nothing against polygon matic but like i said earlier ethereum spins up

609
00:42:27,830 --> 00:42:33,269
its own marketing uh campaigns every couple of years and they fade away and i think the free

610
00:42:33,269 --> 00:42:38,310
market is now uh like crushing them it's uh it's becoming more and more apparent that they're not

611
00:42:38,310 --> 00:42:43,669
solving any problem and yeah bitcoin has enough interesting projects that nobody needs to

612
00:42:44,550 --> 00:42:51,749
uh go outside that domain but yeah i won't like i i aspire to spend as much time in bitcoin and not

613
00:42:52,149 --> 00:42:53,709
to think about other projects.

614
00:43:22,149 --> 00:43:23,030
Stop now, Bello.

615
00:43:23,729 --> 00:43:25,129
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616
00:43:25,550 --> 00:43:27,689
become a Plep Chain Radio layer 2 patron,

617
00:43:28,129 --> 00:43:30,370
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618
00:43:30,370 --> 00:43:33,350
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619
00:43:34,149 --> 00:43:37,129
One tiny click, a few shiny sats,

620
00:43:37,310 --> 00:43:39,109
and the door swings open.

621
00:43:39,889 --> 00:43:41,429
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622
00:43:41,990 --> 00:43:43,209
find Plep Chain Radio,

623
00:43:43,389 --> 00:43:44,609
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624
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625
00:43:47,709 --> 00:43:49,010
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626
00:43:49,889 --> 00:43:50,709
Ce peccato.

627
00:43:50,709 --> 00:43:59,069
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628
00:44:00,389 --> 00:44:04,470
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629
00:44:05,330 --> 00:44:08,129
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630
00:44:09,409 --> 00:44:16,169
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631
00:44:20,709 --> 00:44:24,709
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632
00:44:24,709 --> 00:44:29,330
Lift them up with funds untry

633
00:44:29,330 --> 00:44:34,169
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634
00:44:34,169 --> 00:44:39,669
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635
00:44:39,669 --> 00:44:42,050
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636
00:44:42,050 --> 00:44:45,089
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637
00:44:45,089 --> 00:44:47,909
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