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Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses

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on the intersection of NOSTER and Bitcoin protocols.

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Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current

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thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,

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doers, and plebs.

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All right, we are live.

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Welcome, gentle plebs, to the Lightning Laced Airwaves. Today is Friday the 1st of August and it is 4.59pm on the East Coast of the United States.

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At the time of recording, this is episode 123 of Pleb Chain Radio and we have a fun one in store for you today.

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Zach Mahoney, creator of IndieHub, the lightning pay-per-view platform, joins us to talk about film and much, much more.

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And a reminder, folks, if you are listening to this episode on Apple or Spotify, first of all, thank you for listening.

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But I would urge you to hit pause and switch over to the Fountain Podcasting app, where you can earn some sats and support the value-for-value revolution as you listen.

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And while you're there, we would appreciate it if you hit that subscribe button.

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The subscription will open up access to bonus episodes for you.

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This show is streamed live on zap.stream and any other Noster client that supports streaming such as Amethyst and Noster.

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And QW, you've been paying attention to Bitcoin and Noster culture in the last week.

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What have you witnessed?

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I was just thinking when you're talking about those other platforms that you can listen on, and I was thinking there's going to come a time when we're just submitting our own faces and verifications just to listen.

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I think Spotify is starting to mess with that, some sort of proof of self or something, digitizing the door to even just listening to or consuming music or podcasts.

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So one day, Avi, and I wonder if Fountain would be under that scrutiny one day with the way the UK or the EU is kind of moving that dial.

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It's something to consider, Avi.

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We might be, you know, on the run again one day.

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You never know.

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But truly, it's not like we actually live there.

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It's just where our RSS feed goes and they're currently our hosts.

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So kind of we live there right now, huh, Avi?

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Well, you talk about the age verification because I'm 69.42 years old.

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But it's that dial.

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I mean, the Overton just keeps moving, right?

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So it's just getting weirder and weirder.

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So it's, I don't know how social media platforms can even keep up with all of these different jurisdictions and the Orwellian, just authoritarian, you know, digital ID crap that's starting to manifest or mature.

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So it's something that, I don't know, it's, if it was 20 years ago and they'd said something like this is going to happen, I'd be like, no way, that's crazy.

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But here we are and no one cares.

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So it just seems like there's a niche part of the little shadowy area of the internet that even cares about it.

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And at one point, do you just wake up?

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I don't know.

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We'll see.

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And I did do a show with Ghost about privacy on our layer two this week, just a couple days ago.

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Just fun.

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I mean, it's a fun show to do because it's a very interesting topic.

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But I think one thing I wanted to kind of hit home is in privacy is everyone has their own risk assessment, their own necessity.

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And it can be very overbearing to try to pretend like you're completely, I don't know, anon.

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so it's more about minimizing your exposure

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just kind of separating distributing your

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the amount of information you're providing

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the world these days and with AI it seems like you're just

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if you give them an inch they'll take a mile with what they can kind of

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connect together so I don't know anyways that's

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kind of what's going on in the culture it seems like privacy is a big thing right now

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especially with the samurai going down the, the, the hack,

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the leak of the T app where all those girls that were submitting their faces

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well, all their information,

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all their faces is now on the internet and it seems like it's a weekly

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occurrence. So meanwhile, the, yeah, go ahead.

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On the T app. Do you remember?

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I'm sorry to hear that too, Avi. I know.

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Yeah. No, no. Do you remember my cross dress?

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my stark warnings about all these people who are absolutely giddy about vibe coding and thinking

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everyone's a dev now yeah most likely the t app was vibe coded and i you know i think i've said

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this a few times on the show is by all means knock yourselves out try new things but please

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for the love of the Lord,

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do not put personal information on a vibe-coded app.

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Right.

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Well, there was something.

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Was it the person that developed it?

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Or was it someone just vibe-coded the hack?

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Or I don't know.

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There was something about vibe-coding in between there.

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It seemed like it was very likely

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that the app itself was vibe-coded.

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But don't you feel like that's going to...

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So the creator of that, obviously,

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is not necessarily the creator.

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He's the prompter of that, right?

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He or she.

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And this is the world we're kind of moving towards where everything is, oh, it was vibe

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coded.

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I don't know, man.

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Not my liability, not my problem type of thing.

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Kind of like when the Waymo almost ran me off the road one day.

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I tried to make a phone call into Waymo and it's just computers.

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It's just, you're in a circle of automation.

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How many times is Claude going to go to jail, QW?

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And that's it.

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I mean, the way the liability is these days, you can just pawn it off on the robot.

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And that's it.

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So that's something.

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Another thing that happened was Jack.

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He just launched Purple today, the Purple version of BitChat.

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And what that does is Nostra integration.

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So have you looked into that, Avi?

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I believe it introduces NIP 17.

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um i downloaded the regular bit chat once it was available on the app store

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unfortunately i couldn't find anyone on my local network probably because my wife and son have not

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downloaded bit wait so you're not a bit chat influencer yet we when bit chat podcast

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but it was interesting because i was like oh cool like it's you know you can bring nostril

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and you can do your bit chat.

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And then I like download it.

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I install it.

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I go look.

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I'm like, oh, wait, I still need to have real life friends around me

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to initiate the chat.

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Then you can use relays and expand beyond that initial close by initiation,

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I suppose.

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By the way, on that, I saw something funny.

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There was a guy who posted on X of all places today that, hey,

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I finally was able to use BitChat and turns out he's sitting at PubKey,

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BitChatting with the dude next to him at the bar.

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Yeah. Yeah. I think Will, with Thomas mentioned, you know,

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this chat's so cool at this meetup and I'm like, you know, your,

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your voices too. But at the same time, like,

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I think that extension portion of it is cool.

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I like where it's all going. The tech is, is, is neat. I mean, if you were,

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if you, if the internet went down,

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you could still be chatting some, some, some former or another.

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I don't know. I think there's a bigger picture there,

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but we're starting to see it. So I think that's, no, there is.

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But I was, I was kind of thinking it was going to be white noise that was

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integrated, but I think it was just the NIP 17.

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And I don't know if I it's, I think maybe it was just,

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I don't know the easiest one for now, but who knows?

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So that happened. Lake Satoshi started today, Avi.

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Are you, uh, got your camping gear?

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Yeah, I'm ready to go right after this.

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As you know, we are going to have a show next week with Rev Hoddle.

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So we're going to do a little recap of Lake Satoshi.

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I'm really interested.

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I've, I've already been seeing pictures of, of the grills fired up and Rev Hoddle's lamb

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getting cooked.

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Uh, I've seen beef jerky packs.

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I've seen all the circular economy, pleb-like products that you would normally see in, I don't know, upstate or Midland, Michigan.

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It seems like some fertile land up there.

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So lots of good stuff there.

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I'm looking forward to that show next Friday.

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And then, dude, we totally didn't even mention WhatFest.

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and I don't know if it was because maybe it just wasn't in my face as much.

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Why didn't we mention WhatFest, Avi?

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I don't know, man. Culture Corner is your thing, so you goofed up.

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Well, I vibe-coded Culture Corner that week, so it's clearly the code's fault.

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No, but WhatFest.

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I like the approach.

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It was a standard, just a normal music festival in the middle of Wyoming.

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Wyoming. And it just, it was an attempt at purple and orange pilling people,

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meeting them where they're at. So going to not a Bitcoin event, but actually a music festival,

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setting up a, you know, a picture, a Toonster, I don't know, a backdrop and just kind of live

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streaming, talking, talking to people and handing out some sats. So they brought the Primal 2100

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sat cards. So I just like where it's all going. I think it's neat. I'm not sure how well it was

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received. I saw a few new ostriches that were introduced, some musicians, but you know what?

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You just got to keep trying, right? That is for sure. Any update on your episode, Avi?

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You know, it's, you're talking about the one that I'm funding for Paragoy?

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The funding, because I think it's important we talk about it every time until it's plump full.

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Yeah, I'm at 82% funded for the Paraguay episode.

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So folks, if you're listening, we'll have the link for the Angor fundraiser in the show notes.

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Do check it out.

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It is a cool new platform built on Bitcoin script and Noster, fully sovereign, self-custodial funding platform.

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and help me get over the line so that I can film episode three of Finding Home in Paraguay this September Please

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And with that, QW, before we bring our guest on...

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That does bring our culture corner to Anand Avi.

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And I do want to understand, what is the sermon today?

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Because I think this one's near and dear to your heart.

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This one is indeed dear to my heart.

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And I suspect to our guest's heart before we bring him on.

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Independent cinema is the unruly heartbeat of culture.

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The place where a thrift store lamp can outshine a million dollar CGI sun and a single whispered line hits harder than a stadium's worth of explosions.

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Yet, without a marquee, these stories drift in the algorithmic dark held hostage by platform taxes, payout delays and the dreaded account under review.

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What we need is an always open theatre whose tickets can't be torn up by middlemen.

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Enter the lightning network

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Where sats streak across the globe

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Like a ticket stub tossed through the projection beam

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Landing in the filmmaker's wallet

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Before the opening credits fade

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No chargebacks, no borders

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No sudden demonetization

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A fan in Lagos, La Paz or Louisville

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Can zap mid-scene

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And the next frame gets funded in real time

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This isn't a fantasy

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The rails are already there for micro-rentals

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Pay-per-view premieres and tip-jar finales

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When 90% of the box office stays with the artist

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All it takes is courage

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Filmmakers uploading their work without fear

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Viewers trading a few thousand sats for a night of human truth

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Builders refining open-source payvolts

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so the projector never stutters.

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Art is a timestamp on the human condition,

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and it deserves money that shares its independence.

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Let's engrave our stories on a ledger guarded

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not by suits, but by math.

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The revolution will be subtitled,

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lightning-powered, and gloriously uncensored.

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And with that, QW,

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I think this is an apropos moment

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to bring on our guest, Zach Mahoney.

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Welcome, sir, to Plep Chain Radio.

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Well, thank you for having me, you guys.

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Avi, that was spectacular.

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I need a recording of this.

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I'm going to put that one in the archives.

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Well done.

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Super stoked to be here.

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Thank you guys for the invite.

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Love it.

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So, Zach, we start every show with a burning question,

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and this one will be no different.

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The question is, when IndieHub's House of Cards, and by that I mean House of Cards was the first big budget show ever backed by a streaming platform, Netflix.

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So when Lightning Netflix first House of Cards?

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Oh man, this is like trading predictions, right?

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You always want to give a direction but never a time frame.

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Man, realistically, I would say we're a few years out.

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You know, we are, you know, I got into this, I got into the crypto game, the Bitcoin world in 2017.

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And it feels like yesterday, but it's been a minute.

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And there are still, I mean, I think more often than ever, I kind of meander around and I go, man, we're so early.

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Like we're still so early. Um, and I say that because, you know, when I first started envisioning

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this platform, when I first started thinking about IndieHub and, um, what it could be and what it

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could do, this was 2000, probably 17, 18. And even then I would get like just kind of brutal panic

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attacks in my office at the time. Like, fuck, somebody's going to do this. Like, I don't,

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I don't have time. I'm not a developer. Like, you know, ah, um, this would be dope. And,

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and time went by and time went by and, you know, there were little stabs at it and there's been

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little stabs at it here and there, but, um, I just, what's that quote? There's a quote from a VC.

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It's like, you know, founders are just always so much earlier than they think they are. Um,

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So, all of that's to say that I would say we're a few years out. If we're talking like blockbuster level house of cards stuff, we're a ways out. But I do think that we're closer than anybody thinks to actually starting to fund some shows.

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Avi, I know you're doing this right now with finding home and, you know, plugging those stakeholders into a cap table like on IndieHub and sharing some of that revenue.

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I think that we're actually fairly close to that.

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And that's going to be a Bitcoin story.

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I think the Bitcoiners are the most incentivized to do that and technically proficient enough to do that.

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So it's really, this new world, this new system is going to be built by Bitcoiners, initially for Bitcoiners, but then it will take off after that and sort of expand out into the more traditional market.

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And I think I was thinking about this yesterday. You know, we get so I do this. I'm talking for myself here. Like I get so into the tech and I get so into Bitcoin. I get so into the cool new shit that's happening. But at the end of the day, you know, and I get like behind the scenes stuff, too, just as a filmmaker, like my career has been in film and TV. And I love all the technical shit, man. Like I love it all. I love like talking about all of it from camera stuff to blocking to editing to literally whatever you name it.

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We'll talk about it. But at the end of the day, what matters is that this technology brings about the opportunity to tell much, much better stories than are being told by Hollywood right now.

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And to highlight and illuminate and propel the most talented storytellers among us.

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And that's what this technology is here to do.

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And people are going to celebrate great stories told beautifully.

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So it's going to be a process.

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we're in that process

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we need the Bitcoin or support to do it

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but once that engine

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gets going and we start to see

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the market unleashed

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with

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respect to visual storytelling

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and sort of

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traditional filmmaking in general

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man I think it's I'm bullish

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I'm bullish that's me so

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long answer to a very

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short question but I would say we're still a few

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years out

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you hear that qw i think i might uh i might be able to close out my paraguay fundraiser

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zach said he's got me i was just thinking founders are

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much earlier than they think and i was just thinking about our podcast opi

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uh and that's fantastic what'd you say 82 percent yeah 82 percent funded that's fantastic

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like let's fucking go dude yeah you can get 80 percent 82 percent of the flight there obi and

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then you can walk the rest. That's right. So what brought you to Bitcoin? Or maybe what are

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some of the ethos or what connected where you're just like, wow, this is me. I might be a pleb.

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Definitely a pleb. Side question. Did you guys know there's a difference between a pleb and a

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plebe? Plebeian, I would say, is kind of the word for it. Pleb. Yeah, go ahead and give us a little

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edumacation there, Zach. I'll probably fuck this up, but I was... Best education. You know, somebody

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says pleb, somebody says plebe, and I'm like, okay, is this just a pronunciation difference or

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what's going on here? And a plebe, from what I was reading, is actually like a military cadet,

259
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like somebody out of West Point, something like that. I might be messing it up. But, you know,

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pleb is pleb. You think like normal schmo citizen. But plebe is actually kind of a reference to

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like a very low ranking officer. So it's sort of the same vibe. But anyway, you guys can look that

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up. Fact check me later. Argue about it. Whatever you want to do. So what got me in? Okay. So I,

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this is going to sound maybe contrary to what a lot of people think about actors and filmmaking,

264
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but I started my career as an actor in my mid-teens, like 13, 14, started working professionally

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around that age, started auditioning and started booking work 15, 16.

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And for the first half of my career, I was just staunchly an artist. I had zero respect for

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business. I had zero respect for money, negative respect, probably, um, in retrospect. And, uh,

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I was just totally focused on the art. And then 2008 hit, uh, and it very similar, uh, sort of

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similar in vibe to what's happening now, at least as far as the film industry is concerned. Um,

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back then there was a writer's strike. There were, there were major labor strikes. There was an

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economic crisis, and Canon had just released the 5D Mark II. So technology, politics, and economics

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sort of all converged on the film industry to sort of demolish it in 2008. And I say the 5D Mark II,

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really what I'm talking about is technology, technological improvement made production

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significantly cheaper and easier to do for, you know, non-studio independent types. And,

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you know, this is the birth of YouTube basically and Netflix. Um, and so the industry was kind of

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in disarray at that point as well. Uh, nobody really knew where the money was going to come

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from. Nobody knew where it was going. The whole industry was kind of working backwards back then.

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The industry was a lot more structured than it is now. Um, and there was a pretty clear ladder,

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labor ladder on the way up, whether you were a technician or you were in front of the camera,

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behind the camera, whatever, there's generally speaking kind of a way of advancing your career

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that everybody kind of followed. And in 2008, everything sort of went backwards. So I

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had started, you know, early in my career, I was in a lot of big rooms and I was going on a lot of

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big stuff and I was booking work consistently. And then everything kind of shifted and changed

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in 2008. And so the, I say this, you know, uh, sort of bluntly, but like the pile of shit at the

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bottom got really, really big. And as budgets were constrained at the studio level and the whole

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industry started to rewire itself and Netflix took over over the, the following 15 years,

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um, I just got really sick of the stuff that I was going out on as an actor. Like it was just not

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what I moved to LA to do. And so I, I started my own, I started doing production. I started

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shooting stuff I wanted to start doing movies that I came down here to do tell the type of stories that I was interested in that I thought were meaningful and sort of worth the time

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And so all of this is to say that that sort of forced me into the business side of things.

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And I had to do like a little 10-year detour, just learning the basics of running a business and the basics of finance and bookkeeping.

292
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And that sort of led me, that was like my own little personal renaissance. And that sort of led me into stumbling across Bitcoin and crypto. And I was like early 2017. And literally it wasn't, it wasn't some crazy thing. Literally a buddy of mine had been interested in Ethereum. He was like mining Ethereum or something. And he had like mentioned it to me a few times.

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And, um, I happened to have it finally, you know, it was like months had gone by and I

294
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finally had a day where I didn't have anything to do.

295
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And I was sitting at my desk and he called me and he's like, dude, I'm bugging you about

296
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this Ethereum thing.

297
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You need to check it out.

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I was like, oh, okay, shit.

299
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All right.

300
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I got a day.

301
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Like, what is it?

302
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Send me to a website.

303
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And, you know, he sent me to CoinMarketCap and, uh, I was somewhat familiar with stocks

304
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at that point, you know, like I was familiar with, you know, market caps and outstanding

305
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shares and, you know, share price and price up, down kind of thing.

306
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And so I saw this landing page of all these coins and all these prices.

307
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And I was like, oh, shit.

308
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Like, this is, oh, wow, this is a lot.

309
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So these are like stocks or something.

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And I would, no exaggeration, I would say probably within about 30 minutes, I read some description about Bitcoin or whichever technology.

311
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And basically, it was like, you know, you can transfer money without a centralized counterparty, without a bank.

312
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And I had had some run-ins with banks up to that point and I had no love lost for banks. I was like fucking completely sick of that entire system. And the whole thing just seemed ridiculous to me. And so within, I mean that day, within 45 minutes, I was like, oh, people can start sending money to each other and there's not a bank involved.

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I don't know what any of this is. I don't know how any of this works, but that sounds like that's a big fucking deal. And that pretty much started an obsessive, compelled journey that continues to this day.

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I really have no business being interested in the stuff that I was interested in with respect to Bitcoin, but it answered so many questions and illuminated so many things for me that I just didn't understand about why things were going the way they were going globally and in the film business and otherwise.

315
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And it just opened up that door for me of like, oh, wow, this is actually how the world works. This is how things are going. And I did the full deep dive. I mean, I was into like crazy obscure books about central banking in the 1800s and like Warren Mosler books, like just random, random shit.

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And I was compelled. I was absolutely compelled. And I think tying it back to the point is contrary to most people's opinions about acting, acting is actually not lying. Good actors are not good at lying. They're good at telling the truth, which is why they're paid a fuckload of money.

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So the best definition of acting I've ever heard is that your job is to behave truthfully under imaginary circumstances

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And the reality is that most people in our day-to-day lives

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We're taught to lie and we're taught to lie to ourselves and ignore our own feelings about certain situations

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And ignore our own instincts and certainly ignore our impulses because they're inconvenient to other people

321
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And so we stuff those down and we make a habit of doing this over our lifetime

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and uh so i you know kind of realized there's like one of usually one of three reasons people

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act like to tell the truth to be seen and for cathartic reasons um and i was very compelled

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to the art form to tell the truth i wanted to i wanted to have a truthful uh exchange with

325
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another human being that's what lit me up and uh so the truthful component that's always been a

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guiding light of mine. And so the truthful component of Bitcoin, um, as I was, I think like

327
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right before I had learned all that, I had sort of just taught myself about bookkeeping. And that

328
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was like, like oddly, this like sort of borderline spiritual experience where I was like, holy fuck,

329
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like you can't, you can't lie in this thing. Like this fucking literally everything is here. Like

330
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it has to, like, you can lie about what the category was, but, but you know what it was like,

331
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there's no leave. Like if you want to see yourself naked, like check out your, your books, if you

332
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keep them, you know? So, you know, then, then we get to Bitcoin triple entry accounting and I'm

333
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like, this is just, this is just, this is just un, you know, this is just the truth. This is

334
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just the truth that cannot be fucked with. Like, my God, this is incredible. Um, so again, short

335
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answer, long story. I would say, um, the truthiness of it is what really drew me to the technology.

336
00:28:29,844 --> 00:28:36,684
exactly i gotta say when he when he when his first initial reaction when he opened up coin

337
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market cap uh was oh shit he was about 99.99999 percent correct

338
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little did i know

339
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you know zach there's a lot to uh a lot of directions we can take but that was a great

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answer by the way many ways we could take this but there's one thing that i want to

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talk about, which is you said people think actors are lying, are good at lying. I've actually never

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heard that before. Is that a common perception that actors are good at lying? The most common,

343
00:29:11,444 --> 00:29:17,084
absolutely. I could agree with that. I mean, that's like something where, well, he's paid to

344
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act, you know? So you would just assume, you know, even if they're telling the truth, they might be

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paid to say that i don't know it's it's it's i can see how that can kind of coincide but if you

346
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just throw it for what little i know of theater and i'm sure this applies to film as well zach

347
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if you look at uh the stanislavsky method or the grotowski method any of i mean there is such a

348
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deep psychological study of the human condition yep to to be an actor right you that i mean there's

349
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things like emotional memory and all of those things that you need to understand. So, I mean,

350
00:29:54,084 --> 00:29:58,904
it's so, I would never think of it as lying. I would just think of it as a deep understanding,

351
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deep and sometimes dangerous understanding of the human condition.

352
00:30:02,104 --> 00:30:08,184
But if you even have heard the name Stanislavski, then you're probably, you don't qualify for the...

353
00:30:10,064 --> 00:30:16,444
I'm thinking like, Avi, you like to watch soccer, aka football.

354
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when they hurt their leg and the guy comes out with a spray they're rolling around and you know

355
00:30:22,964 --> 00:30:28,384
they're they're acting for a red flag that's bad aren't they trying to get that card out that card

356
00:30:28,384 --> 00:30:36,504
i mean it you know if you go there's different layers of it if you go into any any acting any

357
00:30:36,504 --> 00:30:41,264
acting class or studio or method in my this is my opinion this isn't ubiquitously true but

358
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But, you know, especially true with like Meisner work.

359
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Like the words are fucking irrelevant.

360
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Like the script is completely irrelevant.

361
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Like forget the script.

362
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Like the words seriously don't matter.

363
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There's an entire behavioral tennis match happening underneath the words.

364
00:30:58,304 --> 00:31:06,324
And that's really what the actors are doing is you're behaving correctly, you know, in line with the script.

365
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You're doing it truthfully.

366
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So it's, of course, believable.

367
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and more importantly that the audience relates to what's going on.

368
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But this is why you can go watch a great play.

369
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Like if you watch a bunch of amateurs or people who have never done acting before

370
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or early in their acting career just don't really know what they're doing,

371
00:31:23,964 --> 00:31:29,884
they can go – you can pick up a great playwright, screen playwright, whatever.

372
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It doesn't matter.

373
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You can do Mamet.

374
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You can do Shakespeare.

375
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And if you're an audience member, you're watching like newbie actors do great –

376
00:31:37,484 --> 00:31:39,424
I mean, we're talking some of the best writing ever.

377
00:31:39,944 --> 00:31:43,084
You actually will have trouble following what the fuck is going on.

378
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You'll be like, I don't even know what the fuck is going on in this script.

379
00:31:45,204 --> 00:31:49,284
And it's because the actors don't understand what the behavioral tennis match is

380
00:31:49,284 --> 00:31:52,664
even going on in the script and what the stakes are in the scene.

381
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They're just saying the words.

382
00:31:54,424 --> 00:31:56,684
So it's like we get hung up.

383
00:31:56,804 --> 00:31:59,044
We're like, you know, society is very left brain these days.

384
00:31:59,064 --> 00:32:00,104
We get hung up on the words.

385
00:32:00,104 --> 00:32:03,944
But like what the great acting really has nothing to do with the words.

386
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The words make it so our brain can follow along.

387
00:32:06,284 --> 00:32:12,124
and there's exposition in a storyline. But what we're really drawn to is the behavior. And that's

388
00:32:12,124 --> 00:32:17,564
where the truthiness comes in. That's what the training is all about, is to remove these barriers,

389
00:32:18,424 --> 00:32:24,664
to retrain your entire body to start telling the truth again, right? Like one of the things we do

390
00:32:24,664 --> 00:32:27,564
is like the most important thing, what are they doing? How do I feel about it? What are they doing?

391
00:32:27,624 --> 00:32:31,984
How do I feel about it? It's just constantly this back and forth. And so if you get really good

392
00:32:31,984 --> 00:32:37,024
actors, they're usually the worst liars in the room. Just, but, but you have to take words out

393
00:32:37,024 --> 00:32:41,564
of it, you know, like it's just the behavior that they're, they're there to, this is why they're,

394
00:32:41,564 --> 00:32:45,064
you know, attractive and electric when they're really good at what they do, because they're just

395
00:32:45,064 --> 00:32:52,284
so in the moment. And, you know, Kiddaby, the other thing, the other theme in Jack's,

396
00:32:52,624 --> 00:32:58,844
in Zach's earlier answer, we've seen this with all the music shows that we've done,

397
00:32:58,844 --> 00:33:03,304
is it's a very similar arc, right?

398
00:33:03,383 --> 00:33:05,544
It's like you're going through the fiat system.

399
00:33:06,124 --> 00:33:07,904
I mean, Open Mic has talked about this.

400
00:33:08,784 --> 00:33:09,424
Yeah, yeah.

401
00:33:09,544 --> 00:33:11,124
And I was thinking the same thing,

402
00:33:11,204 --> 00:33:14,084
kind of the performance side of things,

403
00:33:15,084 --> 00:33:17,824
the hijacked, I mean,

404
00:33:17,824 --> 00:33:20,164
the music industry is very similar

405
00:33:20,164 --> 00:33:22,864
with the movie industry

406
00:33:22,864 --> 00:33:28,504
in regards to how it's kind of a top-heavy juggernaut.

407
00:33:28,844 --> 00:33:32,184
And yeah, I thought the same thing, Avi.

408
00:33:32,764 --> 00:33:37,904
And Zach, when you're talking about being a good actor versus writer,

409
00:33:38,124 --> 00:33:41,924
I just, my mind instantly went to Bryan Cranston and Vince Gilligan.

410
00:33:43,144 --> 00:33:47,804
And some of those scenes from Breaking Bad where I'm not, I mean, that was great writing.

411
00:33:48,024 --> 00:33:48,904
It was great acting.

412
00:33:49,084 --> 00:33:52,664
They collided and it was perfect, like the crawl space scene.

413
00:33:52,664 --> 00:33:59,344
but those I can see where if maybe it got me thinking well was the writing even that good

414
00:33:59,344 --> 00:34:05,584
was Brian that great of an actor you know what I mean you had me kind of reflecting

415
00:34:05,584 --> 00:34:15,184
I would say a great deal of that was Cranston in their relationship you know the the circumstances

416
00:34:15,184 --> 00:34:18,924
they they drew up on Breaking Bad were great I think the pilot of Breaking Bad is like

417
00:34:18,924 --> 00:34:26,404
one of the better episodes ever produced in TV, like definitely top 1%. The pilot was so well

418
00:34:26,404 --> 00:34:31,184
written, you know, but as these shows crank on, like they really, they really just have to keep

419
00:34:31,184 --> 00:34:37,464
coming up with crazy shit, you know? And you, you really rely heavily towards the latter half of

420
00:34:37,464 --> 00:34:43,404
shows on these, these developed characters that these actors have, have, you know, Game of Thrones

421
00:34:43,404 --> 00:34:46,624
was similar, right? Like you just, you're so invested in the characters at that point, the

422
00:34:46,624 --> 00:34:50,804
writing you're just like i don't know but like god i'll just love watching them yeah i mean

423
00:34:50,804 --> 00:34:56,883
obvi and i we're 123 shows in now i mean we're now we have you on the show so we're into the

424
00:34:56,883 --> 00:35:19,015
crazy shit now digging deep dude dude i i wanted to not to obvi please tell me to shut the fuck up but you guys said something earlier on your uh on your intro that really fucking blew my mind I was like you said created versus prompted in the context of AI

425
00:35:19,015 --> 00:35:22,436
and just like human beings in general right now.

426
00:35:22,535 --> 00:35:24,376
Man, like that is such a profound,

427
00:35:24,595 --> 00:35:25,635
that literally blew my mind.

428
00:35:25,715 --> 00:35:26,575
I was like, holy fuck.

429
00:35:27,215 --> 00:35:30,535
Because I kind of want to get your spin on this, actually.

430
00:35:30,535 --> 00:35:35,735
I get really, I'm not a fan of the word creator.

431
00:35:36,315 --> 00:35:38,436
I really dislike it.

432
00:35:40,175 --> 00:35:42,456
And there's a number of reasons for that.

433
00:35:44,275 --> 00:35:47,835
But at the end of the day, like none of us,

434
00:35:48,075 --> 00:35:51,575
none of us are actually, like to get really obnoxious about it,

435
00:35:51,635 --> 00:35:54,436
none of us actually, we're not capable of creating,

436
00:35:54,715 --> 00:35:57,015
like everything that already exists is already here.

437
00:35:57,015 --> 00:36:02,196
we can at best we can rearrange shit that is already here in more interesting ways

438
00:36:02,196 --> 00:36:06,916
you know but like we can't create energy we can't destroy energy we can just transmute it which is

439
00:36:06,916 --> 00:36:12,715
a wonderful power to have but it's not creation itself and it got me thinking like created versus

440
00:36:12,715 --> 00:36:18,416
prompted like are we just is that like all we're really doing are we just prompting like is that

441
00:36:18,416 --> 00:36:22,635
that's not all we've ever been doing like that totally blew my mind yeah well it's the whole

442
00:36:22,635 --> 00:36:26,075
like discovering Bitcoin versus creating.

443
00:36:26,075 --> 00:36:27,115
Yes, yes.

444
00:36:27,215 --> 00:36:29,755
And then so much so like where if you're a pleb,

445
00:36:29,775 --> 00:36:31,315
you discover Bitcoin in yourself.

446
00:36:31,775 --> 00:36:34,615
So it's all, it's, yeah.

447
00:36:34,775 --> 00:36:37,775
I mean, essentially it's already there.

448
00:36:37,775 --> 00:36:42,475
So the prompting is, what are your thoughts, Avi?

449
00:36:43,235 --> 00:36:46,376
By the way, Avi's going to take the V out of his name.

450
00:36:46,475 --> 00:36:47,335
He's so into AI.

451
00:36:48,555 --> 00:36:49,876
It's just a matter of time.

452
00:36:50,995 --> 00:36:51,675
It's funny.

453
00:36:51,675 --> 00:36:56,456
I've actually, even for, I'm vibe filmmaking at this point.

454
00:36:56,555 --> 00:36:57,655
I took the transcript.

455
00:36:58,035 --> 00:36:58,696
Let's go.

456
00:36:59,315 --> 00:37:04,675
From, there was a, so basically I filmed seven hours of Finding Home in Prague,

457
00:37:04,856 --> 00:37:07,775
the episode two that's going to be released in a month or so.

458
00:37:07,995 --> 00:37:08,255
Nice.

459
00:37:08,335 --> 00:37:13,856
I took the transcript and put it into AI just to see if I can get some themes out of it.

460
00:37:14,956 --> 00:37:20,975
Anyway, my view, I was starting from a boring answer to what you said, Zach,

461
00:37:20,975 --> 00:37:24,495
which is, I think that's semantics to say no one's a creator.

462
00:37:25,595 --> 00:37:30,975
It really depends on, yes, you're assembling things that already exist,

463
00:37:31,815 --> 00:37:36,295
but at the same time, you're using a certain intuition

464
00:37:36,295 --> 00:37:41,376
or a spark that no one else had and you had

465
00:37:41,376 --> 00:37:43,436
to assemble things in a certain way,

466
00:37:43,475 --> 00:37:47,196
to MacGyver it in that particular order or whatever it is.

467
00:37:47,196 --> 00:37:52,535
and that brought into being something that didn't exist before

468
00:37:52,535 --> 00:37:54,755
and therefore you are a creator, right?

469
00:37:55,196 --> 00:37:56,856
So I think...

470
00:37:56,856 --> 00:37:58,635
Versus just putting a puzzle together

471
00:37:58,635 --> 00:38:00,035
and saying I created this puzzle?

472
00:38:01,815 --> 00:38:05,495
Well, it depends on the puzzle, right?

473
00:38:05,715 --> 00:38:07,696
Or unless you're talking about something very specific.

474
00:38:08,155 --> 00:38:10,615
No, I'm just saying, I mean, they're all tools, right?

475
00:38:10,675 --> 00:38:11,956
We use them, we put them together

476
00:38:11,956 --> 00:38:14,135
and then some people just put them together

477
00:38:14,135 --> 00:38:16,515
a lot more elaborate and that would be genius.

478
00:38:17,196 --> 00:38:23,595
that creation, um, in, in that way, using those tools is an art form, I suppose.

479
00:38:24,635 --> 00:38:29,696
Yeah. This is pretty deep, man. You know, it, it's like, it really came from, and I totally,

480
00:38:29,815 --> 00:38:32,595
like, I'm not, I'm certainly not going to die on that hill and I understand what people say.

481
00:38:32,595 --> 00:38:36,555
Um, I understand what people mean. And I certainly used to call myself a creative.

482
00:38:37,255 --> 00:38:42,975
Um, there's a lot of ego in that, that bothers me because when you, at a certain point, like,

483
00:38:42,975 --> 00:38:45,376
and again I'm not taking away the amount of work

484
00:38:45,376 --> 00:38:47,416
like I get it it's really more just to have

485
00:38:47,416 --> 00:38:48,315
the conversation but

486
00:38:48,315 --> 00:38:51,436
there's something to be said for when you've

487
00:38:51,436 --> 00:38:53,535
put in a tremendous amount of work and you've

488
00:38:53,535 --> 00:38:55,535
you know like from an acting perspective like a lot

489
00:38:55,535 --> 00:38:57,475
of the work you have to do is really to just get the fuck out of your

490
00:38:57,475 --> 00:38:59,055
own way like you just have to like

491
00:38:59,055 --> 00:39:01,575
remove a lot of the shit that's

492
00:39:01,575 --> 00:39:03,396
been put in into your life that's getting

493
00:39:03,396 --> 00:39:05,456
in the way of you channeling a great

494
00:39:05,456 --> 00:39:07,075
performance and

495
00:39:07,075 --> 00:39:09,055
a lot of you know a lot of the

496
00:39:09,055 --> 00:39:11,196
quote unquote creative people whether they're

497
00:39:11,196 --> 00:39:15,896
artists or scientists, you know, it's like, there's a, there's an element of saying like,

498
00:39:15,956 --> 00:39:20,416
Hey, that performance, like really that something came through me. Like I was able to simply channel

499
00:39:20,416 --> 00:39:26,416
something from another place. And I was just the conduit through which that thing kind of came into

500
00:39:26,416 --> 00:39:32,195
this realm. And that's a pretty common theme around people, especially the really prolific ones.

501
00:39:32,655 --> 00:39:36,976
And you, and you sort of get out of that, like top of mind learning how to do something and you

502
00:39:36,976 --> 00:39:42,755
get into that like subconscious um you know that unconscious competence level of master the flow

503
00:39:42,755 --> 00:39:48,755
state i've heard about the flow state yeah yep so it's kind of interesting it's the rob the rob

504
00:39:48,755 --> 00:39:57,275
brendan show right yeah so anyway just food for thought really i don't have an end point on it

505
00:39:57,275 --> 00:40:01,456
other than uh it's the the prompted versus created is interesting right because you're

506
00:40:01,456 --> 00:40:07,135
you're, you know, even as filmmakers, as actors, like your job as an artist really is to be as

507
00:40:07,135 --> 00:40:13,235
specific as you can. I mean, in filmmaking, that's especially important. Um, general, general choices,

508
00:40:13,396 --> 00:40:17,035
middle of the road choices don't really work out that well. I mean, Will Smith made an entire career

509
00:40:17,035 --> 00:40:22,535
off of this, right? Like he, his characters make the wrong choice, but with a hundred percent

510
00:40:22,535 --> 00:40:27,235
commitment, you know, like he goes the wrong way with a hundred percent conviction, which is

511
00:40:27,235 --> 00:40:35,835
hilarious like all the time. And so, you know, being specific is really, really important. And

512
00:40:35,835 --> 00:40:39,655
as I started, I've really kind of started the AI journey recently, like within the last few months,

513
00:40:39,655 --> 00:40:46,275
and I just realized, oh man, like the level of specificity required in prompting is really the

514
00:40:46,275 --> 00:40:50,055
level of specificity that we should see in screenwriting that we've lost over the last 15

515
00:40:50,055 --> 00:40:56,615
years. So I don't know, are we all just prompters and God created everything beforehand and we just

516
00:40:56,615 --> 00:40:58,015
get to prompt the protocol.

517
00:41:00,916 --> 00:41:02,936
I'm definitely vibing through life.

518
00:41:07,995 --> 00:41:11,995
Let's bring this from the sublime, Zach, to planet Earth.

519
00:41:13,055 --> 00:41:13,655
Done.

520
00:41:13,876 --> 00:41:17,456
And talk about the beginnings of IndieHub.

521
00:41:17,515 --> 00:41:18,376
So you were an actor.

522
00:41:18,635 --> 00:41:19,655
That was your passion.

523
00:41:20,255 --> 00:41:23,135
You saw the fiat nonsense that the industry was suffering from.

524
00:41:23,135 --> 00:41:29,436
So you held your nose and you learned about the business side of things and found that you actually liked it.

525
00:41:29,856 --> 00:41:31,635
And then at some point IndieHub happened.

526
00:41:32,595 --> 00:41:34,115
What was the story there?

527
00:41:34,436 --> 00:41:35,195
What was the motivation?

528
00:41:36,335 --> 00:41:43,155
Man, it really wasn't, it wasn't, it was really pretty practical.

529
00:41:43,155 --> 00:41:53,575
I mean, as I was learning, you know, I was as I was on my my crypto journey in my crypto adventure, you know, it really it was kind of practical.

530
00:41:53,575 --> 00:41:58,815
Like once the idea of streaming value, you know, I started to realize, like, OK, this is how we stream data.

531
00:41:58,916 --> 00:42:03,055
Like this is how TCP IP works. Like, OK, we could break up. We break up data in packets.

532
00:42:03,115 --> 00:42:08,655
Why can't we break up value in packets? You know, and certain chains have been working on that for a long time.

533
00:42:08,655 --> 00:42:15,155
And I was like, man, if you could stream, if you could just stream payments while you're

534
00:42:15,155 --> 00:42:16,315
watching a movie, that would be dope.

535
00:42:16,416 --> 00:42:17,555
Like that would, that would be cool.

536
00:42:17,956 --> 00:42:21,255
And then the next logical conclusion is, okay, well, what about fundraising?

537
00:42:21,315 --> 00:42:24,815
Like, why can't you just distribute that revenue to whoever's on the cap table?

538
00:42:25,735 --> 00:42:28,095
And why can't you fundraise that way as well?

539
00:42:28,396 --> 00:42:33,295
And, you know, having been in front of him behind the camera, having tried to fundraise

540
00:42:33,295 --> 00:42:42,595
and produce and execute and sell. I saw, I just saw a world where the, you know,

541
00:42:42,695 --> 00:42:49,115
when, you know, independent film is, I mean, all filmmaking is just, is crazy. It's a miracle any

542
00:42:49,115 --> 00:42:53,896
of it ever really works, but especially independence, man, you are, it is an extremely

543
00:42:53,896 --> 00:42:57,896
entrepreneurial mindset to be an independent filmmaker. And most of them aren't super

544
00:42:57,896 --> 00:43:06,815
business-minded, but really it's super, super entrepreneurial. And what you recognize pretty

545
00:43:06,815 --> 00:43:12,815
quickly is that the people who are taking the most risk are getting the least reward in the way that

546
00:43:12,815 --> 00:43:17,956
the current system is set up. And it has gotten worse and worse and worse and worse over the last

547
00:43:17,956 --> 00:43:22,655
20 years that I've been in the business. And certainly you could make the case way before that.

548
00:43:22,655 --> 00:43:37,376
so really what I saw was the ability to rewire the risk reward schema you know and if you could

549
00:43:37,376 --> 00:43:42,755
do that and you believed in in the power of free markets and you believed in the power of

550
00:43:42,755 --> 00:43:50,555
people to go produce dope shit then it just kind of made sense and said okay well then let's just

551
00:43:50,555 --> 00:43:55,995
let's just try to reconnect risk and reward and let's try to get the people out of the way that

552
00:43:55,995 --> 00:44:02,575
are that are sucking all of the energy out of the room and the you know we all know this we're all

553
00:44:02,575 --> 00:44:07,235
bitcoiners right but like the difference between art and propaganda is whoever's writing the check

554
00:44:07,235 --> 00:44:17,535
and as studios have have consolidated particularly since 2008 you know down the street uh it the

555
00:44:17,535 --> 00:44:22,215
building used to say universal, and then it was NBC universal, and now it's Comcast, NBC,

556
00:44:22,595 --> 00:44:26,175
universal. And so as all of these publicly traded companies fold in on themselves,

557
00:44:26,775 --> 00:44:31,655
you start to realize that the money that they're using to produce these shows is essentially coming

558
00:44:31,655 --> 00:44:35,775
from Wall Street. I mean, I'm grossly oversimplifying it, but that's basically what's

559
00:44:35,775 --> 00:44:38,995
happening. And so then at a certain point you realize, well, Wall Street's captured. And so

560
00:44:38,995 --> 00:44:44,215
this is just propaganda. This shit that's being produced, this is not the market responding to

561
00:44:44,215 --> 00:44:51,315
an artist's risk-taking and skill level. And so I just, I saw the payments and I said, if we can

562
00:44:51,315 --> 00:44:56,476
just reconnect, if we can, you know, recalibrate risk and reward, uh, we might have a chance to

563
00:44:56,476 --> 00:45:04,335
save this art form. That's pretty much it. When did you launch IndieHub?

564
00:45:05,695 --> 00:45:13,715
I mean, we're, we're kind of in this like super early, you know, demo beta version of it right

565
00:45:13,715 --> 00:45:21,775
now, but, um, I would say as it exists right now, it's been a few months. Um, you know, as far as

566
00:45:21,775 --> 00:45:30,015
the features go, it's been a few months, but, um, I would say like our first, you know, Bitcoin

567
00:45:30,015 --> 00:45:37,055
film fest 2024 was probably like our first public foray into anything. And we just helped them, uh,

568
00:45:37,055 --> 00:45:41,416
do some VOD. We just helped them host the VOD side of things and distributed some payments to

569
00:45:41,416 --> 00:45:45,195
filmmakers who had their films on there. And, you know, we didn't, we haven't marketed anything.

570
00:45:45,315 --> 00:45:49,555
We have done zero marketing at this point. And I'm really just trying to hammer out some of the

571
00:45:49,555 --> 00:45:53,835
technical stuff and, uh, and then go do a little raise and make stuff a little bit more public.

572
00:45:53,835 --> 00:46:02,396
But, you know, it's been in various iterations for, you know, the last 18 months. Um, and, uh,

573
00:46:02,615 --> 00:46:07,075
we're kind of finally at that MVP stage where we can really start to onboard some films and

574
00:46:07,075 --> 00:46:12,135
filmmakers with the features that they would expect as professionals.

575
00:46:12,155 --> 00:46:17,795
So Zach, that was the first time I heard about IndieHub when I was at the Film Fest in Warsaw

576
00:46:17,795 --> 00:46:24,655
last year, 2024. But, you know, we've been talking about IndieHub. Maybe for folks who are not

577
00:46:24,655 --> 00:46:30,095
familiar with what it is, do you want to give the pitch? What is IndieHub? What can people expect

578
00:46:30,095 --> 00:46:38,755
as users, what can people expect as drumroll creators on it?

579
00:46:39,155 --> 00:46:41,775
You'll notice that we use the word filmmakers.

580
00:46:42,015 --> 00:46:43,555
We do not use the word creators.

581
00:46:45,495 --> 00:46:52,235
So basically, IndieHub.studio at the moment is an independent film exhibition platform.

582
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:56,167
and we pay filmmakers per second watched.

583
00:46:56,467 --> 00:46:59,007
So for every second that their movie's being watched,

584
00:46:59,107 --> 00:47:00,547
we're distributing that revenue,

585
00:47:01,027 --> 00:47:03,287
and they can split that revenue on their cap table

586
00:47:03,287 --> 00:47:04,147
however they'd like.

587
00:47:04,947 --> 00:47:07,307
So, you know, for short films and independent film,

588
00:47:07,447 --> 00:47:11,347
it's much easier to tell a cinematographer

589
00:47:11,347 --> 00:47:12,967
or an actor or an editor,

590
00:47:13,127 --> 00:47:14,187
hey, I'll give you five points,

591
00:47:14,467 --> 00:47:15,987
and we'll just bake it into IndieHub,

592
00:47:16,007 --> 00:47:17,347
and you'll get paid whenever it gets watched,

593
00:47:17,347 --> 00:47:19,827
and we can sort of walk away from the books.

594
00:47:19,827 --> 00:47:25,747
and you know we have basically we have two primary roles we have audience members we have filmmakers

595
00:47:25,747 --> 00:47:31,407
if you're an audience member you're there to watch movies and basically it's you know it's pretty

596
00:47:31,407 --> 00:47:35,947
simple not groundbreaking there you know subscribe we have kind of two ways you can do it you can rent

597
00:47:35,947 --> 00:47:40,307
a project if a filmmaker enables rentals or you can subscribe to indie hub and have unlimited access

598
00:47:40,307 --> 00:47:46,107
to the platform and with unlimited access basically we calculate every second that you're watching

599
00:47:46,107 --> 00:47:50,267
something and we distribute that payment to the filmmaker. So there's no weird licensing deals.

600
00:47:50,547 --> 00:47:53,367
If you're watching it, they're getting paid. If you're not watching it, they're not getting paid.

601
00:47:53,627 --> 00:48:00,847
It's pretty simple. And for the filmmaker side of things, you can create a free account. You can

602
00:48:00,847 --> 00:48:07,827
upload your projects. We're currently, we're hosting cinematic stuff. So narrative documentary,

603
00:48:08,027 --> 00:48:13,167
short or long form or episodic. And that's really what we're looking for. We also have music videos,

604
00:48:13,167 --> 00:48:16,627
but we're not looking for YouTube stuff. It's not like cat videos and whatnot.

605
00:48:18,207 --> 00:48:25,667
You know, properly shot cinematic stuff, storytelling. And that's, that's it for the

606
00:48:25,667 --> 00:48:29,187
moment. That's kind of the simple, the simple pitch for the moment. It's obviously, it's,

607
00:48:29,287 --> 00:48:33,647
of course it's built on lightning. So if you're a filmmaker, you're familiar with Bitcoin,

608
00:48:33,847 --> 00:48:38,947
just put your LNURL in there and decide what frequency withdrawal you want to make and bada

609
00:48:38,947 --> 00:48:48,227
bing bada boom there you go so so is that split with lnurl like zap splits yeah yeah like interesting

610
00:48:48,227 --> 00:48:54,327
because i have i've seen that applied uh real time uh for like live shows on fountain uh or streaming

611
00:48:54,327 --> 00:49:00,707
uh from you know from the music side of things but i have not seen it i mean even our our our you

612
00:49:00,707 --> 00:49:07,447
know club chain radio we have our splits and it's just instant it's it's trustless it's it's it's

613
00:49:07,447 --> 00:49:20,167
It's a great, from what I've heard, you know, from full bands or people involved, like I've even been in part of a live split when we did a live show in Vegas.

614
00:49:20,787 --> 00:49:22,407
It's just really powerful.

615
00:49:22,667 --> 00:49:24,167
That's such a powerful feature.

616
00:49:24,467 --> 00:49:27,627
And to kind of, like you said, step away from the books.

617
00:49:29,647 --> 00:49:30,207
Yeah.

618
00:49:30,947 --> 00:49:32,967
Is that something that just came about?

619
00:49:32,967 --> 00:49:38,107
I mean, how did you discover that and how quick were you to implement it?

620
00:49:38,107 --> 00:49:44,727
So truth be told, the first, the very first proof of concept I built on this, um, was before

621
00:49:44,727 --> 00:49:48,287
lightning was as viable as it is now.

622
00:49:48,367 --> 00:49:50,927
This was probably like three or four years ago.

623
00:49:51,547 --> 00:49:54,747
Um, and so we built it on a platform.

624
00:49:54,887 --> 00:49:57,027
I don't even know if it's still, it's not even platform.

625
00:49:57,127 --> 00:49:58,267
It's really protocol, I guess.

626
00:49:58,267 --> 00:50:00,547
It was called, um, Interledger.

627
00:50:00,547 --> 00:50:07,567
and Interledger was kind of written up and coded by this dude, Stefan Thomas, who used to be one of

628
00:50:07,567 --> 00:50:17,187
the executives at Ripple. And so they were using, so like the XRP Ledger, even years ago,

629
00:50:17,727 --> 00:50:23,387
like even as early as 2017, I think 2018, maybe before that, I don't know, I wasn't around, but

630
00:50:23,387 --> 00:50:28,127
they had this feature on the XRP Ledger called payment channels. And so it was very similar to

631
00:50:28,127 --> 00:50:33,047
the way lightning works now, where you just open up a private channel with another node or another

632
00:50:33,047 --> 00:50:36,507
user on the network, and you can just zip like an unlimited amount of payments back and forth,

633
00:50:36,587 --> 00:50:41,187
super, super fast. And whenever you're done, you close it and settle out. Um, so the very first,

634
00:50:41,187 --> 00:50:48,447
uh, the POC we built was on interledger and the idea behind interledger, it wasn't ripple. That

635
00:50:48,447 --> 00:50:54,427
wasn't XRP ledger. It was like its own protocol thing. Um, but the idea was that it was currency

636
00:50:54,427 --> 00:51:00,487
agnostic. So, uh, you know, if banks had like plugged into this, then it would exchange whatever

637
00:51:00,487 --> 00:51:06,127
dollars, euros, Bitcoin, ETH, you know, like Euro XRP, like literally it was currency agnostic.

638
00:51:06,247 --> 00:51:10,547
It didn't care. It didn't have a token that ran on it or anything like that. And so that was the

639
00:51:10,547 --> 00:51:15,867
easiest one to implement because lightning was still not nearly as developed as it is now. And

640
00:51:15,867 --> 00:51:21,767
I just wanted to see if it would work. Um, and it did, it did on that. So that's kind of how it

641
00:51:21,767 --> 00:51:26,467
like just that like quick value streaming sort of came into my, into my mind and we implemented

642
00:51:26,467 --> 00:51:35,707
on that. And then, um, as, as lightning got more advanced and sophisticated and like ready for,

643
00:51:35,707 --> 00:51:40,487
uh, a customer like me to plug into it. Like, I don't want to run a lightning node. I'm not a

644
00:51:40,487 --> 00:51:43,867
money transmitting business. I, I'm not going to get licensed for that. It's never going to happen.

645
00:51:44,027 --> 00:51:50,827
So I kind of had to wait until, uh, lightning companies were able to onboard businesses like me

646
00:51:50,827 --> 00:51:52,807
and they provide the lightning services.

647
00:51:53,067 --> 00:51:55,267
So that's part of what took a little bit of time

648
00:51:55,267 --> 00:51:57,827
was just kind of waiting on lightning to evolve and develop.

649
00:51:59,047 --> 00:52:03,567
And we have just kind of been building on it ever since.

650
00:52:04,567 --> 00:52:06,027
So you guys are doing splits on here, right?

651
00:52:06,027 --> 00:52:07,907
So you guys are using RSS 2.0?

652
00:52:09,287 --> 00:52:10,047
That's right.

653
00:52:10,607 --> 00:52:10,787
Yeah.

654
00:52:11,107 --> 00:52:16,587
So we actually have been working with those guys.

655
00:52:17,007 --> 00:52:18,987
We actually have the ability for filmmakers

656
00:52:18,987 --> 00:52:21,527
to publish a movie over RSS 2.0 as well.

657
00:52:21,607 --> 00:52:24,147
So you could actually watch a movie in that podcast app

658
00:52:24,147 --> 00:52:26,667
and do the same thing.

659
00:52:27,267 --> 00:52:29,787
Streamsats, tip, do the whole thing.

660
00:52:29,847 --> 00:52:31,887
But instead of just audio, it's video only.

661
00:52:31,987 --> 00:52:33,867
And we actually have the ability to publish that

662
00:52:33,867 --> 00:52:36,687
over an RSS feed for filmmakers if they wanted that,

663
00:52:37,047 --> 00:52:37,987
which is kind of cool, kind of fun.

664
00:52:40,507 --> 00:52:42,127
When you say RSS 2.0,

665
00:52:42,127 --> 00:52:43,867
are you talking about podcasting 2.0?

666
00:52:43,907 --> 00:52:45,367
Because we're using RSS Blue,

667
00:52:45,367 --> 00:52:50,547
which is the back end of Fountain as of a few months ago.

668
00:52:51,447 --> 00:52:52,287
Yeah, exactly.

669
00:52:52,427 --> 00:52:55,527
So they're all using basically the 2.0 RSS spec.

670
00:52:56,527 --> 00:52:56,667
Yeah.

671
00:52:57,227 --> 00:53:01,027
And yeah, that spec actually can go with videos as well.

672
00:53:01,167 --> 00:53:02,367
Nobody really uses it for that,

673
00:53:02,467 --> 00:53:03,827
but we're like one of the first people

674
00:53:03,827 --> 00:53:07,247
that would allow you to publish a movie over an RSS feed,

675
00:53:07,447 --> 00:53:08,087
which is kind of dope.

676
00:53:09,607 --> 00:53:10,207
Got it.

677
00:53:10,287 --> 00:53:12,487
So let's talk about the mechanics of this.

678
00:53:12,487 --> 00:53:18,687
as a user, as a consumer of content,

679
00:53:19,087 --> 00:53:20,947
you sign up for an IndieHub account

680
00:53:20,947 --> 00:53:22,727
and you have the option of

681
00:53:22,727 --> 00:53:26,827
either upgrading to a membership

682
00:53:26,827 --> 00:53:28,987
or just being a free user

683
00:53:28,987 --> 00:53:31,827
who then looks for films

684
00:53:31,827 --> 00:53:33,927
that the filmmakers listed at a price

685
00:53:33,927 --> 00:53:35,727
and then you can just rent those, right?

686
00:53:35,807 --> 00:53:38,427
By paying either in Lightning or,

687
00:53:38,647 --> 00:53:40,947
and I believe there's a fiat option as well, correct?

688
00:53:41,467 --> 00:53:42,647
Yeah, that's exactly right.

689
00:53:42,847 --> 00:53:45,547
So basically the free option is create an account.

690
00:53:45,687 --> 00:53:47,387
You can browse everything that's on the platform.

691
00:53:47,567 --> 00:53:48,527
You can watch the trailers.

692
00:53:49,147 --> 00:53:51,567
You can look at the cast and crew who are involved.

693
00:53:53,287 --> 00:53:55,587
And so that's if you don't want to pay a monthly.

694
00:53:55,807 --> 00:53:59,727
And then if a filmmaker has a movie for rent, then we basically keep track of your rentals.

695
00:53:59,727 --> 00:54:03,927
And you can rent something for 48 hours and watch it and be good to go.

696
00:54:05,187 --> 00:54:08,887
And how much today, how much is the monthly subscription?

697
00:54:08,887 --> 00:54:15,727
So our lowest tier is $10 a month, and we go from $10 to $15 to $25.

698
00:54:16,207 --> 00:54:21,547
And the primary difference, the only difference between those tiers is how much do you want to pay a filmmaker.

699
00:54:22,067 --> 00:54:28,927
So if you want to pay a filmmaker more money, you just pay more monthly, and we make a larger distribution on your behalf, basically.

700
00:54:29,347 --> 00:54:35,127
So we have a $10, $15, and $25, and the payout is $0.25, $0.50, and $1 an hour of watch time.

701
00:54:37,567 --> 00:54:38,247
I see.

702
00:54:38,887 --> 00:54:50,367
So really from a filmmaker's perspective, it makes a lot more sense to target the free users of IndieHub, right?

703
00:54:50,367 --> 00:54:59,647
Because if you talk about a one-hour movie, the maximum they're going to make is $2 from the subscribers, right?

704
00:55:00,987 --> 00:55:02,947
From the highest tier, correct?

705
00:55:03,347 --> 00:55:03,467
Yeah.

706
00:55:03,467 --> 00:55:14,427
Whereas if you list it for $10 rental and a free user just sort of scans the QR code and lighting code and buys it, you make a lot more.

707
00:55:14,987 --> 00:55:15,427
Exactly.

708
00:55:15,847 --> 00:55:18,767
So what we were trying to do there is get sort of both customers.

709
00:55:18,967 --> 00:55:22,607
So you've got the kind of economy of scale.

710
00:55:22,607 --> 00:55:32,867
So if you get more people who are just subscribed and they'll run across your thing and watch it for free or not an upcharge, you're just going to have more eyeballs on that as our audience base grows.

711
00:55:33,467 --> 00:55:38,747
But for the people who don't want to pay, you're going to have a higher margin but lower amount of renters, basically.

712
00:55:38,907 --> 00:55:40,807
So you kind of can attack both markets if you want.

713
00:55:44,007 --> 00:55:44,367
Gotcha.

714
00:55:48,327 --> 00:55:55,647
Alvi, is your book on – your book is not audio yet, so you don't have – do you have a digital copy?

715
00:55:56,547 --> 00:55:57,367
I'm just curious.

716
00:55:57,367 --> 00:56:05,187
I'm trying to equate buying a tangible book versus renting a book versus listening to an audio book.

717
00:56:05,947 --> 00:56:11,987
If there's kind of the margins there or what the author kind of gets in that scenario too.

718
00:56:12,347 --> 00:56:15,027
But I don't know if we know enough to talk about it.

719
00:56:15,787 --> 00:56:20,707
But there's certainly models out there that are there for the taking.

720
00:56:20,827 --> 00:56:20,987
Yeah.

721
00:56:21,147 --> 00:56:23,967
Well, I mean, for a digital book, the margins are close to 100%, right?

722
00:56:25,607 --> 00:56:27,347
Or it should be anyway.

723
00:56:27,367 --> 00:56:35,927
because it's but but but but if you take like your am let's say i have uh uh like a whatever

724
00:56:35,927 --> 00:56:42,407
the hell the book uh the digital book uh app is on apple uh you know if i have credits then

725
00:56:42,407 --> 00:56:49,147
it's like a different you get paid differently for like your your monthly credits uh if i buy a book

726
00:56:49,147 --> 00:56:54,947
with credits so there's there's something a little suspect about the way apple does it but i

727
00:56:54,947 --> 00:57:02,927
Yeah, then you can draw the comparison to the way Spotify pays musicians for the number of streams.

728
00:57:03,667 --> 00:57:06,947
I mean, the fiat chicanery there is...

729
00:57:08,767 --> 00:57:13,987
As someone who, as a filmmaker or as a songwriter, whatever it might be,

730
00:57:14,447 --> 00:57:17,787
you see that, Zach? I'm intentionally dancing around the word creator there.

731
00:57:18,627 --> 00:57:19,347
Artist, artist.

732
00:57:19,647 --> 00:57:22,447
But that's right. Are you a musician? Are you a filmmaker?

733
00:57:22,447 --> 00:57:23,527
Like, what is that?

734
00:57:23,607 --> 00:57:24,767
You know, because people are like, I'm a creator.

735
00:57:24,847 --> 00:57:26,347
And it's like, bro, you sell ads for Pepsi.

736
00:57:26,487 --> 00:57:27,727
Like, you're in the advertising business.

737
00:57:27,887 --> 00:57:29,447
You know, like I...

738
00:57:29,447 --> 00:57:35,407
No, but that said, you know, all of these artists, they get nothing.

739
00:57:35,567 --> 00:57:39,347
They get skinned alive by these fiat platforms, right?

740
00:57:39,347 --> 00:57:44,647
Which is where something like an indie hub where it's at least, or a fountain, or a wave

741
00:57:44,647 --> 00:57:45,767
lake, or whatever it is, right?

742
00:57:45,807 --> 00:57:49,507
These platforms built on the sovereign stack, if you will.

743
00:57:49,507 --> 00:57:58,187
they're a much better deal because first of all you pretty much cut out the platform rent seeking

744
00:57:58,187 --> 00:58:04,167
and you go direct to customer and obviously Wavelake is a platform in some sense Indie Hub

745
00:58:04,167 --> 00:58:09,687
is or it's a venue anyway where the content is hosted Indie Hub 2 is a venue where content is

746
00:58:09,687 --> 00:58:20,427
hosted, but it feels like a lot thinner layer than the fat fiat venues that we have.

747
00:58:21,987 --> 00:58:24,367
Yes. Yes. Much thinner. Much thinner.

748
00:58:25,727 --> 00:58:44,819
Who would you view as your fiat competition that you want to take down here Is it Netflix Is it Hulu Amazon Prime video Which one I would say probably more like a little more like Amazon Prime a little more

749
00:58:44,819 --> 00:58:51,939
like Vimeo. And to some extent, Rumble, but that's really only because they're publicly traded.

750
00:58:53,959 --> 00:58:58,739
You know, part of the chicanery that we're experiencing is because these companies are

751
00:58:58,739 --> 00:59:04,879
available to trade on public markets. And that adds to a significant amount of the nonsense.

752
00:59:04,879 --> 00:59:10,619
Like we're going to borrow against our balance sheet, uh, and, you know, create this show that

753
00:59:10,619 --> 00:59:15,839
nobody really wanted or nobody really rooted for or paid for, you know, like what did, like,

754
00:59:15,859 --> 00:59:20,879
what did Netflix do for Michelle Obama's, uh, or maybe it was just the Obama's rights to their

755
00:59:20,879 --> 00:59:24,719
doc or something. It was like, I'm going to mess this up, but the numbers were just

756
00:59:24,719 --> 00:59:30,899
ridiculously high. You know, it's like $300 million. And you're like, I mean, is that money

757
00:59:30,899 --> 00:59:38,299
laundering though? You know, like, I, you know, I don't know, man. Um, so, but I would say, I would

758
00:59:38,299 --> 00:59:43,899
say, uh, Amazon a little more because it's more, a little bit more infrastructural than Netflix.

759
00:59:43,899 --> 00:59:53,839
Um, Netflix is, uh, I think, you know, this, this is, you know, kind of comical coming from, uh,

760
00:59:53,839 --> 00:59:58,979
just a random pleb here talking shit on the sidelines. But like, you know, I think Netflix's

761
00:59:58,979 --> 01:00:04,579
big problem is they're going to have to decide whether they want to, uh, you're going to have

762
01:00:04,579 --> 01:00:10,599
to pick a lane between infrastructure or, or movie production. Um, cause they're two totally

763
01:00:10,599 --> 01:00:15,919
different businesses and they're both really hard. They're both very challenging. Um, and I think

764
01:00:15,919 --> 01:00:20,719
that the market over time is going to compress everybody into forcing them to that decision.

765
01:00:20,719 --> 01:00:23,599
There's going to be really good infrastructure providers and there's going to be really,

766
01:00:23,599 --> 01:00:28,019
really good storytellers and they probably shouldn't be crossing over the way that they do

767
01:00:28,019 --> 01:00:31,539
now. And the only reason they do now is because Netflix was the first company to stream movies on

768
01:00:31,539 --> 01:00:35,999
the internet. So that makes sense. But we're in like bottom of the third here as far as the internet

769
01:00:35,999 --> 01:00:41,099
changing all commerce, but especially the film business, you know, really hasn't been that long.

770
01:00:41,659 --> 01:00:49,079
So I think of Netflix as more of a production company. They're more of a, you know, distributor.

771
01:00:49,079 --> 01:00:54,319
uh amazon is more infrastructure vimeo is a little bit more infrastructure um rumble's a

772
01:00:54,319 --> 01:00:59,239
little bit more infrastructure so i would say like those interesting what sub stack just just

773
01:00:59,239 --> 01:01:04,559
just because i'm curious and i like the network uh what are your thoughts on angel studios um

774
01:01:04,559 --> 01:01:11,099
okay so i'm not as intimately familiar with their model um but i think i think they're

775
01:01:11,099 --> 01:01:16,339
they're also going in a similar direction um you know they've got their they've got this really

776
01:01:16,339 --> 01:01:19,419
interesting thing with the guild where they figured out a way to get people to pay them to

777
01:01:19,419 --> 01:01:26,459
do their job for them yeah like subscribe to the guild and and but the the guild votes so like we

778
01:01:26,459 --> 01:01:33,339
had a bitcoin shooter on and he was trying to get no more inflation uh possibly to he basically you

779
01:01:33,339 --> 01:01:40,299
submit the video and then the guild votes yes or no and uh it's kind of a democracy democracy of uh

780
01:01:40,299 --> 01:01:46,059
what's up next yeah um but yeah and then the tuttle twins same thing they they have to i guess

781
01:01:46,059 --> 01:01:52,939
submit episodes and they get voted or ideas get voted something like that but it's it's interesting

782
01:01:52,939 --> 01:01:58,519
but that's it i don't know i don't know if that would be considered a studio or an infrastructure

783
01:01:58,519 --> 01:02:04,979
maybe both because i think they do have some angel studio studio movies too but i i think i would i

784
01:02:04,979 --> 01:02:13,479
would consider them more on the studio model of things um and i don't uh you know what here's what

785
01:02:13,479 --> 01:02:19,299
I'm trying to solve for. What I'm trying to solve for is that the risk takers get the commensurate

786
01:02:19,299 --> 01:02:26,219
reward. And so I'm trying to provide the infrastructure for talented filmmakers to

787
01:02:26,219 --> 01:02:31,039
put their movie to market and see if the market responds. Right now, there's no real efficient way

788
01:02:31,039 --> 01:02:37,399
to do that. And that's all anybody's really asking for is a fair shot. I think that Angel Studios

789
01:02:37,399 --> 01:02:43,779
is I think they're going to run into issues as far as as filmmakers get sick of the deal. Like,

790
01:02:43,799 --> 01:02:50,099
I don't think that they're that the filmmakers are getting the commensurate reward in that setup.

791
01:02:50,239 --> 01:02:55,939
And so I think when when a platform offers a better reward for the response,

792
01:02:56,139 --> 01:03:01,899
it's going to be a natural place for filmmakers to go. And I don't think that that place quite

793
01:03:01,899 --> 01:03:09,679
exists yet. And I think part of the reason for that is we need to have like a reg CF. We need,

794
01:03:09,699 --> 01:03:13,959
we need some securities clarification, particularly in the crypto world. And we need filmmakers to be

795
01:03:13,959 --> 01:03:19,419
able to source funds from their fan base and have their fan base get rewarded for that risk,

796
01:03:19,419 --> 01:03:25,999
which is still a little bit of a legal gray area that I want to attack. But I, the point I'm trying

797
01:03:25,999 --> 01:03:33,179
to make is that I think that Angel has figured out a way to outsource a lot of the work that

798
01:03:33,179 --> 01:03:41,739
they should be doing internally. And I think that they're kind of preying on filmmakers and artists

799
01:03:41,739 --> 01:03:49,679
in a very similar way that studios currently do. And so I'm not sure it's super sustainable

800
01:03:49,679 --> 01:03:54,779
long-term. I think it's an interesting idea, but the second that filmmakers can monetize in a fair

801
01:03:54,779 --> 01:03:58,419
away on a fair platform and bring their audiences over and know that they're just getting paid for

802
01:03:58,419 --> 01:04:01,299
what's being watched, that's my bet. I think that that will have the longevity.

803
01:04:03,559 --> 01:04:08,259
You know, Zach, I want to go back to that fissure you're talking about that might happen

804
01:04:08,259 --> 01:04:15,759
between an infrastructure provider and a content studio, like you say with Netflix. But I mean,

805
01:04:15,759 --> 01:04:21,699
Prime isn't entirely out of that business, right? There are Prime original shows that you see every

806
01:04:21,699 --> 01:04:28,919
now and then. Apple TV is a great example. Their infrastructure and they have original content.

807
01:04:29,099 --> 01:04:35,019
Ted Lasso is a great example of that. Hulu, I believe, has their own original content,

808
01:04:35,159 --> 01:04:42,899
their infrastructure too. So do you genuinely believe that over the course of the next few

809
01:04:42,899 --> 01:04:47,999
years that this will become unsustainable for them and they'll have to make a choice, all of them?

810
01:04:47,999 --> 01:04:54,119
it's going to take a long time but i think that we're over the next probably let's call it 15

811
01:04:54,119 --> 01:04:58,839
years i know that's kind of a long time frame but i i think that 15 year cycles make sense um

812
01:04:58,839 --> 01:05:03,559
you know hulu for example right hulu got hulu had their thing going and then they got bought by

813
01:05:03,559 --> 01:05:10,999
disney it all just continues to get folded into larger and larger companies um you know amazon and

814
01:05:10,999 --> 01:05:17,079
apple uh those are kind of lost leaders for them um you know they're not on the books making a

815
01:05:17,079 --> 01:05:21,399
bunch of money with these, you know, building out the streaming and producing these giant shows that

816
01:05:21,399 --> 01:05:30,279
have insane costs. They're using them kind of as marketing tools. So I think that over the years,

817
01:05:30,339 --> 01:05:35,139
things will continue to consolidate and you'll start to see more decentralized, more independent

818
01:05:35,139 --> 01:05:40,619
competitors pop up. And you'll see kind of like Bitcoin, you know, Bitcoin's sort of a bottom-up

819
01:05:40,619 --> 01:05:43,919
revolution. I think the same thing is going to happen as far as the monetization of arts are

820
01:05:43,919 --> 01:05:50,179
concerned. And I think that it's going to continue to get less and less profitable to produce these

821
01:05:50,179 --> 01:05:56,139
massive, massive shows. I mean, case in point, the reason that there was, the reason that the,

822
01:05:56,259 --> 01:06:00,999
you know, there's been a massive slowdown, like things are not doing well for the film business

823
01:06:00,999 --> 01:06:05,459
right now. Things are just kind of bleak and dark and just not, it's not going well. A lot of people

824
01:06:05,459 --> 01:06:10,979
are out of work. A lot of people are having to leave their careers. It's been pretty bleak the

825
01:06:10,979 --> 01:06:16,159
last couple of years. And a big part of that is that interest rates went up. So it's really easy

826
01:06:16,159 --> 01:06:23,179
for studios to pump out an insane amount of content when interest rates are at zero. But

827
01:06:23,179 --> 01:06:28,899
the second you saw interest rates go from zero to 5%, all of a sudden there's a writer's strike

828
01:06:28,899 --> 01:06:34,159
and they have to cancel other shows. It's because they can't afford to actually produce these shows

829
01:06:34,159 --> 01:06:40,439
when interest rates are at 5%. Why is that? What is the relationship between interest rates

830
01:06:40,439 --> 01:06:42,159
and profitability of studios?

831
01:06:42,959 --> 01:06:43,899
Well, they're not profitable.

832
01:06:45,719 --> 01:06:47,799
You know, the media arms of these places on paper

833
01:06:47,799 --> 01:06:48,479
are not profitable.

834
01:06:48,959 --> 01:06:50,639
They've all been losing an insane amount of money.

835
01:06:51,239 --> 01:06:53,159
And so they can borrow the money.

836
01:06:53,159 --> 01:06:56,319
Is it because they're not able to borrow at low rates?

837
01:06:56,659 --> 01:06:57,999
It's all debt-based?

838
01:06:58,179 --> 01:07:00,279
Is that what the cost of debt servicing is?

839
01:07:00,459 --> 01:07:01,539
Okay, got it.

840
01:07:01,839 --> 01:07:03,999
It's the same Fiat Ponzi and every other thing.

841
01:07:04,179 --> 01:07:06,399
It's literally the same thing in art and film.

842
01:07:06,399 --> 01:07:14,919
they have been uh producing garbage i might add um at zero percent at nothing interest rates for

843
01:07:14,919 --> 01:07:20,059
however long and it's just been a race to the bottom and now that you know money's a little

844
01:07:20,059 --> 01:07:25,599
more expensive all of a sudden you know most of the you know there's there's strikes and all these

845
01:07:25,599 --> 01:07:29,779
shows are shut down and the whole industry is like you know in a black hole right now so i think a

846
01:07:29,779 --> 01:07:36,059
few more cycles of that um and you'll see further consolidation and you'll see competitors at the

847
01:07:36,059 --> 01:07:39,699
bottom start to pop up like they're popping up now. You know, Substack is going to be a really

848
01:07:39,699 --> 01:07:46,859
interesting one. I think they've got a great platform and they've got great tools for publishers

849
01:07:46,859 --> 01:07:52,239
and, you know, Rumble's doing their thing. They got the Tether Wallet. You got IndieHub coming up.

850
01:07:52,799 --> 01:07:56,859
So I think you're going to see a lot of people nipping at the heels of the big studios.

851
01:07:57,179 --> 01:08:02,099
The little ones will continue to get folded up into the big ones. And in 15 years or so,

852
01:08:02,099 --> 01:08:07,359
it's going to be like, okay, well, are we doing infrastructure or are we making movies?

853
01:08:07,959 --> 01:08:08,799
I think it's going to take a little while.

854
01:08:10,199 --> 01:08:14,979
You know, on the one hand, saying that there will be a bottom-up decentralized revolution

855
01:08:14,979 --> 01:08:19,819
in this sounds, I mean, it sounds very compelling, right, Zach?

856
01:08:19,819 --> 01:08:27,639
But the way you're describing it, I almost read it as quality is going to go down because

857
01:08:27,639 --> 01:08:34,379
there's not going to be enough funding for some of these high quality grander vision projects

858
01:08:34,379 --> 01:08:41,719
and granted some of it came from cheap fiat money right at artificially low interest rates or

859
01:08:41,719 --> 01:08:51,619
whatever it might be but but to make a grand work of art you do need to compensate a lot of people

860
01:08:51,619 --> 01:08:58,219
fairly, right, which is where a lot of the money goes. If it is bottom up and you're relying on

861
01:08:58,219 --> 01:09:02,859
the generosity of people like value for value or something like that, at least on initial evidence,

862
01:09:03,259 --> 01:09:08,899
that doesn't look too promising, right, for raising a large amount of money and making

863
01:09:08,899 --> 01:09:14,879
something grand. Yeah, I think you've nailed it. And I think that's why you've nailed it in the

864
01:09:14,879 --> 01:09:20,319
short term. And that's why it's not going to be a short term thing. You know, similar to 2008,

865
01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:21,599
when the whole industry collapsed,

866
01:09:21,639 --> 01:09:22,439
it had to get rebuilt

867
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:23,879
and people needed to figure out

868
01:09:23,879 --> 01:09:24,919
where the money was coming from.

869
01:09:25,279 --> 01:09:26,739
A similar thing is going to happen here.

870
01:09:28,019 --> 01:09:31,019
But the problem now

871
01:09:31,019 --> 01:09:33,839
with the huge budget movie,

872
01:09:34,039 --> 01:09:36,879
the quality has already gone down, right?

873
01:09:36,879 --> 01:09:39,239
The quality of movies over the last 15 years

874
01:09:39,239 --> 01:09:41,119
has gone down significantly.

875
01:09:42,639 --> 01:09:44,659
The artistic integrity,

876
01:09:45,419 --> 01:09:46,899
the artistic skill level,

877
01:09:47,699 --> 01:09:49,279
just the quality of story overall,

878
01:09:49,399 --> 01:09:50,259
the quality of filmmaking,

879
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:53,279
Everything has sort of gone down, gone down pretty dramatically.

880
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:55,219
And that is with increased budgets.

881
01:09:55,339 --> 01:09:58,759
That's with Netflix having spent more than every other studio combined.

882
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:04,439
And so what I'm getting at is that like the budgets are inflated.

883
01:10:04,559 --> 01:10:08,439
They're far overinflated and you have too many cooks in the kitchen and you have too

884
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:12,219
many people who are totally not involved in the artistic process at all making artistic

885
01:10:12,219 --> 01:10:12,719
decisions.

886
01:10:13,299 --> 01:10:32,631
And so what we need to see is not that the overall number goes up in the short term but the ROI goes up So if you can compress budgets and you can increase the quality and you can you know let say you do an indie for you know let say two three years from now you get somebody on IndieHub

887
01:10:32,711 --> 01:10:34,471
It's like, hey, I'm going to do this indie.

888
01:10:34,591 --> 01:10:35,471
I had a million dollar budget.

889
01:10:35,471 --> 01:10:42,651
if they can go on IndyHub and make 20% or 30% or 40% or their money back at all,

890
01:10:43,491 --> 01:10:52,851
that's a huge win compared to what's possible now. And so the overall, you're not going to see

891
01:10:52,851 --> 01:10:57,131
$500, $600 million budget on IndyHub anytime soon, but what you're going to see is all these

892
01:10:57,131 --> 01:11:01,731
independent producers saying, hey, I couldn't make anything at a $500,000 budget or a million

893
01:11:01,731 --> 01:11:08,331
budget before I was losing money. If I can either lose less money or even make it somewhat slightly

894
01:11:08,331 --> 01:11:13,211
profitable on this platform, now we can figure out how to rearrange the budgets and scale and

895
01:11:13,211 --> 01:11:17,491
bring the audiences here and increase those numbers. But the most important thing is that ROI

896
01:11:17,491 --> 01:11:22,551
number. And I think that that can start to go up because right now it's negative. It's bad. It's

897
01:11:22,551 --> 01:11:31,671
super bad. You think Hollywood keeps redoing the same movies or let's say a movie from 20 years

898
01:11:31,671 --> 01:11:35,911
ago and we're just going to remake it because there's already a cult following money's tight

899
01:11:35,911 --> 01:11:42,891
so they can kind of guarantee the the story's good and uh they might have a just a baseline of

900
01:11:42,891 --> 01:11:48,911
people that will absolutely see yeah because they can't uh so the analogy i use or the way that i

901
01:11:48,911 --> 01:11:54,891
use the way that i describe this is that you you know filmmaking and art requires you know good

902
01:11:54,891 --> 01:12:01,311
filmmaking good art requires a particular amount of risk you have to be willing to take huge risk

903
01:12:01,311 --> 01:12:04,551
And this is what the old Hollywood moguls were kind of famous for.

904
01:12:05,631 --> 01:12:07,211
You know, they put their names on the line.

905
01:12:07,331 --> 01:12:10,011
They were hyper competitive and they took big risk.

906
01:12:11,351 --> 01:12:18,031
But publicly traded companies are not the vehicle to take big risk on in the artistic realm.

907
01:12:18,571 --> 01:12:22,731
The CEOs of publicly traded companies don't, they want to get their bonus.

908
01:12:22,931 --> 01:12:24,611
And so they're just numbers oriented.

909
01:12:24,611 --> 01:12:25,771
And so they're like, okay, cool.

910
01:12:25,771 --> 01:12:31,171
well, if we just green light another Spider-Man 78, I'll get my, you know, kind of guaranteed

911
01:12:31,171 --> 01:12:34,251
bonus here. We've run the numbers. We know this many people are going to see it. Cool. Pump it

912
01:12:34,251 --> 01:12:38,991
out. They're not going to go say, hey, I'm going to go create this incredible new idea. I'm not

913
01:12:38,991 --> 01:12:42,571
going to push the boundaries because I'm going to get my bonus. I'm going to get fired in two or

914
01:12:42,571 --> 01:12:47,231
three years anyway. So publicly traded companies are not the right, they're not the appropriate

915
01:12:47,231 --> 01:12:52,751
vehicle for the type of risk that filmmaking requires and filmmaking needs. So this is why

916
01:12:52,751 --> 01:12:57,971
we see remake after remake after remake after remake, because all the CEOs of these publicly

917
01:12:57,971 --> 01:13:04,611
traded companies don't want to take outside risk. And have you seen that show, The Studio?

918
01:13:05,031 --> 01:13:11,791
I haven't. I haven't started it yet. I just watched a couple episodes. I'm like not that

919
01:13:11,791 --> 01:13:15,471
into it, but it was just interesting how in the back of the day, how top heavy a lot of these

920
01:13:15,471 --> 01:13:20,691
production studios were, meaning there was one person that was kind of running the show.

921
01:13:20,691 --> 01:13:25,911
and I just, you know, he was green lighting or red lighting different ideas.

922
01:13:26,751 --> 01:13:29,671
Do you see that anymore or is it more of a,

923
01:13:29,671 --> 01:13:33,531
because now that these companies go public and they have boards,

924
01:13:34,271 --> 01:13:35,671
I mean, who makes these decisions

925
01:13:35,671 --> 01:13:42,011
and who makes these ultimate decisions to actually make movies, you know?

926
01:13:43,271 --> 01:13:47,651
And in your situation, you're just basically,

927
01:13:48,191 --> 01:13:50,031
people come to you, they want to show it,

928
01:13:50,031 --> 01:13:51,971
and you're just open door.

929
01:13:52,991 --> 01:13:54,611
But with the production side of things,

930
01:13:54,611 --> 01:13:56,851
there's a lot of liability on the top there.

931
01:13:57,251 --> 01:14:00,351
When they do Snow White again and it's a total flop,

932
01:14:00,491 --> 01:14:03,271
that's millions and millions and millions of dollars.

933
01:14:04,331 --> 01:14:05,351
So I don't know.

934
01:14:05,491 --> 01:14:07,271
I mean, is there a hierarchy these days?

935
01:14:07,271 --> 01:14:10,151
Yeah, there is, but I would say it's a...

936
01:14:10,151 --> 01:14:12,171
It doesn't seem like anybody has a spine.

937
01:14:12,291 --> 01:14:13,811
No, no, they don't.

938
01:14:13,931 --> 01:14:15,811
They totally don't because why would they?

939
01:14:16,151 --> 01:14:19,171
They don't, again, their risk reward system

940
01:14:19,171 --> 01:14:26,671
is totally jacked. Um, they're rewarded for taking as little risk as possible and, you know,

941
01:14:26,711 --> 01:14:32,511
great filmmaking should be like, you know, there's a, there's a lot more risk that you need to take.

942
01:14:32,511 --> 01:14:36,871
You still have to be responsible, obviously it's still a business, but, um, it's become a little

943
01:14:36,871 --> 01:14:43,091
bit more socialist. I mean, and by a little bit, I mean a lot bit, you know, like there's a lot of

944
01:14:43,091 --> 01:14:51,951
this, it's, you know, it, one dude making decisions is kind of how movie sets are built,

945
01:14:52,131 --> 01:14:55,691
you know, like a, like on a, on a proper movie set, like the director is God, the director should

946
01:14:55,691 --> 01:14:58,731
be God. You know, you got the director, you got the producer and basically the buck stops with

947
01:14:58,731 --> 01:15:02,771
them. Um, that's kind of how it should be because it's, it's one dude's vision and he has to make

948
01:15:02,771 --> 01:15:05,851
sure that everybody's swimming in the same direction and everybody's on the same page.

949
01:15:06,591 --> 01:15:11,091
Um, that doesn't mean that he's micromanaging everybody, but, but you have to have, there has

950
01:15:11,091 --> 01:15:16,191
to be someone in charge of yes or no. Like the arguments and the discussions and the decisions

951
01:15:16,191 --> 01:15:20,251
have to go to somebody who says yes or no. Now it's like, you've got a committee of people who

952
01:15:20,251 --> 01:15:23,331
are like, oh, it'd be cool. I feel like it would be cool if this happened. And then somebody's like,

953
01:15:23,351 --> 01:15:26,871
well, this would be cool if this happened. And I think you should change this line to that and

954
01:15:26,871 --> 01:15:29,791
this script to that. And then like all of a sudden, like 15 people have an opinion about

955
01:15:29,791 --> 01:15:33,411
something they probably shouldn't have an opinion about. And you get these really middle of the road

956
01:15:33,411 --> 01:15:44,711
script. So unremarkable. Exactly. Bingo. Bingo. So, yeah. Are you, so how you're currently,

957
01:15:44,931 --> 01:15:51,251
your focus obviously is the, I guess what I'm going to ask is, are you appealing to non-Bitcoin

958
01:15:51,251 --> 01:15:56,431
filmmakers? And what, what reception has? Yeah. To be honest, that that's going to be our biggest

959
01:15:56,431 --> 01:16:01,991
market because our primary customer filmmakers and, you know, the overwhelming majority of

960
01:16:01,991 --> 01:16:04,451
Filmmakers are still really don't know anything about Bitcoin.

961
01:16:05,691 --> 01:16:10,831
And so our goal right now is to onboard as many films and filmmakers as we can.

962
01:16:11,031 --> 01:16:20,271
You know, there's a mountain of decent movies that have been sort of overlooked or festival quality movies that are just, you know, had their run and kind of aren't doing anything.

963
01:16:21,231 --> 01:16:26,791
So we're trying to just do a little arbitrage and vacuum up as much of that stuff as we can.

964
01:16:26,851 --> 01:16:29,091
And most of those filmmakers aren't familiar with Bitcoin.

965
01:16:29,091 --> 01:16:40,311
Right. And I'm the goal for me was to not market this as a as a quote unquote crypto platform or we're just using the best technology to solve the problem.

966
01:16:40,311 --> 01:16:43,691
And if people want to dive underneath that and figure out how it works, that's fantastic.

967
01:16:44,491 --> 01:16:47,311
But you don't have to. You can just upload it and do your thing.

968
01:16:48,631 --> 01:16:54,591
So, you know, I think probably from an audience side, you know, we'll have a lot of Bitcoiners.

969
01:16:55,471 --> 01:16:58,011
We certainly want to get as many Bitcoin movies on here as we can.

970
01:16:58,011 --> 01:17:12,371
I mean, there's a lot of Bitcoin movies on there already. But the biggest pile of movies is certainly non-Bitcoin. And most filmmakers, unfortunately, have not been orange-pilled yet, which is something I'm working on.

971
01:17:16,411 --> 01:17:18,611
Is there any – go ahead.

972
01:17:18,611 --> 01:17:46,371
And I was going to ask, you know, we talked about the non-Bitcoin filmmakers, obviously a venue for movies that may not have made the cut on, you know, or had a big break, right? That's the initial target, as you said, Zach. But what about non-Bitcoin users? Because it seems like the, you pay with lightning, right, is the option. I mean, there is a fiat option to rent. What about for memberships? Is there a fiat option?

973
01:17:46,371 --> 01:17:48,051
as well?

974
01:17:48,451 --> 01:17:50,931
Yeah, you can pay the subscription with a credit card

975
01:17:50,931 --> 01:17:51,591
or with Lightning.

976
01:17:52,511 --> 01:17:54,151
And the Lightning bit actually

977
01:17:54,151 --> 01:17:56,511
is a really hard problem on Bitcoin to solve,

978
01:17:56,631 --> 01:17:58,371
which Pierre Corbin over at Pay With Flash

979
01:17:58,371 --> 01:18:00,431
has been working on. He's kind of the only

980
01:18:00,431 --> 01:18:02,771
plug-and-play solution to do that right now. Shout out to him.

981
01:18:04,351 --> 01:18:04,711
So,

982
01:18:05,031 --> 01:18:05,971
that's only been

983
01:18:05,971 --> 01:18:08,651
recently available. We've had Bitcoiners for

984
01:18:08,651 --> 01:18:10,691
a number of months like, hey, I'd like to

985
01:18:10,691 --> 01:18:12,971
do my subscription to Bitcoin. And I'm like, we can't yet.

986
01:18:13,051 --> 01:18:13,851
It's like, not possible.

987
01:18:14,951 --> 01:18:15,671
We're early.

988
01:18:16,371 --> 01:18:19,491
But you can do Bitcoin, you can do fiat.

989
01:18:20,091 --> 01:18:21,291
Totally up to you as an audience member.

990
01:18:22,311 --> 01:18:27,571
It's hard because, well, the way Fountain solves it is they have an integrated wallet.

991
01:18:28,211 --> 01:18:30,291
And you said you didn't want to do that, right?

992
01:18:30,291 --> 01:18:31,891
You don't want to have an IndyHub wallet.

993
01:18:32,671 --> 01:18:37,391
So this is something we've kind of been on the fence for a while about.

994
01:18:37,511 --> 01:18:43,011
And when we started the design, I initially wanted them to have a wallet built in.

995
01:18:43,011 --> 01:18:52,651
But this was pre-Trump and it was all very, very – things were very, very uncertain with regards to how the government was going to come down on that.

996
01:18:52,791 --> 01:19:06,251
And so now that things are kind of opened up a little bit, believe it or not, the first person I reached out to help build this was – what is his name?

997
01:19:06,331 --> 01:19:06,771
Oh my gosh.

998
01:19:06,911 --> 01:19:07,411
I'm forgetting it.

999
01:19:07,591 --> 01:19:08,711
Over at Breeze.

1000
01:19:11,011 --> 01:19:11,911
What's the team?

1001
01:19:12,251 --> 01:19:12,611
Reichenfeld?

1002
01:19:12,611 --> 01:19:20,331
That's exactly right. So right when, thank you. Sorry, Roy. That was a few years back,

1003
01:19:20,411 --> 01:19:25,491
but right when EgoDeath announced their raise with Breeze, I was like, oh, this is perfect

1004
01:19:25,491 --> 01:19:29,991
because we could have like a user integrated wallet and it would just be on their device.

1005
01:19:31,271 --> 01:19:34,651
And he, but he was building it in Rust at the time and our developer like just had no idea

1006
01:19:34,651 --> 01:19:38,831
what was going on with that. And so I was like, damn. So we started building it in a different

1007
01:19:38,831 --> 01:19:46,191
script. But anyway, all that's to say that I am not opposed at all to building in kind of a wallet

1008
01:19:46,191 --> 01:19:52,431
solution for people who want to do that. And integrating Nostra, that's something else that

1009
01:19:52,431 --> 01:19:56,351
I'd like to do, like a login with Nostra and have comments kind of like Fountain does. Totally fine

1010
01:19:56,351 --> 01:20:04,151
with all that. But, you know, it's still a small world and a small community. And to really convince

1011
01:20:04,151 --> 01:20:08,151
filmmakers that, you know, they can, they can have a little ROI and make their money back.

1012
01:20:08,351 --> 01:20:14,171
We have to, we have to make them onboarding their fan bases very, very easy. And so it needs to feel

1013
01:20:14,171 --> 01:20:24,751
really familiar, familiar to them as well. And Fountain uses a ZBD or Zebedee, which they're out

1014
01:20:24,751 --> 01:20:32,371
of LA. I believe Andrea's, I remember when they came to Nostra, all the Zebedee girls, Obby,

1015
01:20:32,371 --> 01:20:39,491
rockstar was laughing about that. Uh, I called Zebedee, but I think it's EBD. Uh, anyways,

1016
01:20:39,591 --> 01:20:44,431
that's, uh, and, and I think they're actually going to be launching a Noster client soon again,

1017
01:20:44,551 --> 01:20:53,571
round two. Uh, so that's, but, uh, it seems like everything's leaning to LNURL, Zaps, Noster. Uh,

1018
01:20:54,231 --> 01:20:59,831
and have you had any thoughts about leaning into Noster? Just at least this. Yeah, a hundred

1019
01:20:59,831 --> 01:21:12,131
100%. I want to do it. That's just a matter of time and engineering, figuring it out. We're in a little transition right now as far as engineers go, kind of in a downshift as we start to seek some angel rounds of funding.

1020
01:21:12,131 --> 01:21:15,151
so I have to get

1021
01:21:15,151 --> 01:21:17,151
engineering, I have to get them familiar

1022
01:21:17,151 --> 01:21:18,531
with all of that tech

1023
01:21:18,531 --> 01:21:20,631
kind of in the first place and

1024
01:21:20,631 --> 01:21:23,191
they've got to kind of wrap their heads around it

1025
01:21:23,191 --> 01:21:23,871
but I would say

1026
01:21:23,871 --> 01:21:27,271
probably the next couple of

1027
01:21:27,271 --> 01:21:29,271
major feature releases would be a full

1028
01:21:29,271 --> 01:21:31,191
blown login with Nostra integration

1029
01:21:31,191 --> 01:21:32,991
I know a guy

1030
01:21:32,991 --> 01:21:35,071
just give Avi one cigar

1031
01:21:35,071 --> 01:21:37,211
a bottle of wine and get him in front

1032
01:21:37,211 --> 01:21:37,871
of that computer

1033
01:21:37,871 --> 01:21:40,791
I was going to say, Kidabi, you sold my thunder

1034
01:21:40,791 --> 01:21:43,551
I was going to say, I know a guy, his name is Claude.

1035
01:21:43,911 --> 01:21:45,551
And he'll do it for you in a jiffy.

1036
01:21:47,551 --> 01:21:48,831
We're vibing, dude.

1037
01:21:48,991 --> 01:21:49,871
Let's go.

1038
01:21:51,811 --> 01:21:52,211
Yeah.

1039
01:21:52,331 --> 01:22:08,203
When everything when all the when we get tea you know what happened It was obby No but it is a fair point Zach because you know just so viewers know I think I mentioned this on the previous show or the one before

1040
01:22:08,463 --> 01:22:14,523
the Finding Home Pilot is on IndieHub. That's where people can watch it. And I have had people

1041
01:22:14,523 --> 01:22:18,283
reach out to me saying, hey, man, why do I have to put my email in? Why can't I sign in with Nostar?

1042
01:22:18,283 --> 01:22:25,243
So just a requirement request right there for you, Zach, that's coming through user feedback.

1043
01:22:25,243 --> 01:22:48,703
Yep, 100%. We're on it. Definitely no reason. I have no ideological reason, just economic and time. Just got to get it integrated and get them kind of educated and do it. I will say, though, that you can put whatever email you want in, in whatever name you want. It can be one of the fake emails from Simple Login or whatever. I don't care. I just need a way to track your behavior so I can pay the filmmakers.

1044
01:22:48,703 --> 01:22:56,023
we're not selling your your emails to advertisers i'll put it that way

1045
01:22:56,023 --> 01:23:05,723
it's it's like when fountain uh we see we see the statistics obby um for the most part and i think

1046
01:23:05,723 --> 01:23:12,003
they track it by because they pay per sat i i don't know it's uh because you you get paid when

1047
01:23:12,003 --> 01:23:17,563
you when you listen i mean it might be 10 sats but uh it's something about the incoming and

1048
01:23:17,563 --> 01:23:24,903
outgoing, uh, sats that, uh, that might add to the, to how they track it. Um, but that's interesting.

1049
01:23:24,903 --> 01:23:29,303
How, how do you track it? Um, and how do you track it? Well, so it's kind of interesting,

1050
01:23:29,303 --> 01:23:35,063
right? This is why RSS, the RSS 2.0 is really interesting. Um, and I, I kind of like it. It,

1051
01:23:35,063 --> 01:23:43,543
it's not, it's not going to have any, um, just wait till Nostra 10.0, uh, just completely

1052
01:23:43,543 --> 01:23:45,403
absorbs RSS.

1053
01:23:46,043 --> 01:23:48,423
Then we'll do that.

1054
01:23:50,043 --> 01:23:51,523
That'll piss some people off.

1055
01:23:52,243 --> 01:23:55,623
The problem is always like, okay, you can

1056
01:23:55,623 --> 01:23:59,923
put your movie for free. We could put your movie for free over RSS 2.0

1057
01:23:59,923 --> 01:24:04,103
and we could publish it over RSS and you could go on

1058
01:24:04,103 --> 01:24:07,183
whichever podcast app and watch the actual video of it.

1059
01:24:09,183 --> 01:24:11,383
What's the one that's really good? Is it Guru?

1060
01:24:11,383 --> 01:24:25,543
Yeah, Podcast Guru. Those guys have it really well integrated already, better than anybody I've seen, where you just, bam, video pops up, you can watch the movie. But the problem with that is that there's no paywall at all, so you have to be cool with somebody watching the movie completely for free.

1061
01:24:25,543 --> 01:24:33,543
the trade-off is that in that circumstance, the audience can tip you and stream sats to you,

1062
01:24:33,863 --> 01:24:39,223
and that payment routing has nothing to do with IndieHub at all. That totally goes through RSS

1063
01:24:39,223 --> 01:24:45,063
2.0 and the Lightning protocols. If the filmmaker chose or we said we force you to give us a 10%

1064
01:24:45,063 --> 01:24:49,403
of the split or whatever, we could do that. But as a matter of principle, it doesn't have to go

1065
01:24:49,403 --> 01:24:55,763
through IndieHub at all because we're just posting the RSS feed. And in that case, maybe

1066
01:24:55,763 --> 01:25:02,123
we're hosting the media. So then at that point, the cost is borne by whoever's paying the RSS

1067
01:25:02,123 --> 01:25:07,243
hosting fees. So ostensibly, the filmmaker would have to pay a ton of money because let's say you

1068
01:25:07,243 --> 01:25:12,503
want to do a 4K movie that's two hours long and you get even 50,000 people watch it. That's a lot

1069
01:25:12,503 --> 01:25:17,023
of bandwidth. That's going to cost a lot of money to push those pixels around. So the cost has to

1070
01:25:17,023 --> 01:25:22,903
get born by somebody. So you can do pay for the hosting monthly. And then the lightning routing

1071
01:25:22,903 --> 01:25:26,523
can just go through lightning and, and, and none of the payments have anything to do with that.

1072
01:25:26,523 --> 01:25:29,963
Okay. That's fine. Or you can kind of do what, what we're doing on IndyHub, which is

1073
01:25:29,963 --> 01:25:37,763
we've paywalled it. And we keep track of the payment. So we just have a database and says,

1074
01:25:37,763 --> 01:25:43,463
this user account was watching this movie and they watched this movie for X amount of seconds.

1075
01:25:43,463 --> 01:25:48,983
and we do a calculation every second that calculates a dollar value. And then when they

1076
01:25:48,983 --> 01:25:56,623
do the withdrawal, we do the conversion in sats. That's just a lot easier from an audience member

1077
01:25:56,623 --> 01:26:00,483
perspective if they just want to browse a bunch of movies and they're not on the RSS 2.0 thing,

1078
01:26:00,483 --> 01:26:03,603
and they don't have a lightning wallet, and they don't know how to tip, and they don't know how to

1079
01:26:03,603 --> 01:26:08,283
do any of this stuff. We're still early on all of that stuff. So we basically just have a database.

1080
01:26:08,603 --> 01:26:13,323
We keep track of everything. Filmmaker puts in their LNURL. We send the payments out that way.

1081
01:26:13,463 --> 01:26:24,623
yeah that is an interesting uh dilemma that that you run into because so for fountain obviously we

1082
01:26:24,623 --> 01:26:31,403
don't do video we just host our audio there but we have to pay for the hosting cost right um

1083
01:26:31,403 --> 01:26:36,563
and and so fountain then doesn't need to track anything because they don't need to worry about

1084
01:26:36,563 --> 01:26:43,403
the splits and and all of that stuff yeah in your case you're bearing the cost of the computer

1085
01:26:43,403 --> 01:26:46,203
and the storage and the transcoding

1086
01:26:46,203 --> 01:26:48,363
and all of that fun stuff that you need to do, right?

1087
01:26:48,463 --> 01:26:51,663
I mean, these are non-trivial tasks.

1088
01:26:52,223 --> 01:26:52,443
Yep.

1089
01:26:53,003 --> 01:26:54,523
You handle all of that.

1090
01:26:55,463 --> 01:26:58,703
And I guess the way you try and make that back up

1091
01:26:58,703 --> 01:27:02,983
is by taking a percentage in the split

1092
01:27:02,983 --> 01:27:05,003
when the payments come in.

1093
01:27:05,523 --> 01:27:06,623
For the rentals,

1094
01:27:06,683 --> 01:27:08,563
for the people who are doing the one-off rentals.

1095
01:27:09,063 --> 01:27:10,183
Exactly, exactly.

1096
01:27:10,263 --> 01:27:10,723
For the rentals,

1097
01:27:10,803 --> 01:27:12,523
because we still have to push all the data.

1098
01:27:12,623 --> 01:27:13,343
We have to push the pixels.

1099
01:27:13,403 --> 01:27:16,943
somebody watches it that's coming off our server we've done all the transcoding we're hosting your

1100
01:27:16,943 --> 01:27:22,723
profile page we're setting it all up for you yada yada exactly now if you if you do if this is

1101
01:27:22,723 --> 01:27:29,763
something you can answer zach uh or if you can't then you know just say so but which one is a better

1102
01:27:29,763 --> 01:27:37,483
margin for you the the percentage the split you take off the one-time rental purchase or

1103
01:27:37,483 --> 01:27:45,943
what, or from the monthly subscriptions? It's kind of a bell curve. It's a curve.

1104
01:27:47,443 --> 01:27:55,823
As things, if we get to scale, then it'll be subscriptions by far. But that requires a lot

1105
01:27:55,823 --> 01:28:01,723
of subscriptions monthly. And really the difference there, you know, and there's a lot of assumptions

1106
01:28:01,723 --> 01:28:05,703
there. I mean, this is just, I'm just putting this out here, but this is basically what it all

1107
01:28:05,703 --> 01:28:11,943
comes down to, if you think about it. It just comes down to user behavior, right? Netflix is

1108
01:28:11,943 --> 01:28:16,323
kind of a similar, in a similar boat. I mean, it's different because they're paying licensing

1109
01:28:16,323 --> 01:28:20,663
fees rather than just watch time. But at the end of the day, like the books kind of look similarly.

1110
01:28:21,603 --> 01:28:27,403
You have X amount of users that are watching X amount of hours and it's costing you X amount

1111
01:28:27,403 --> 01:28:32,243
of dollars to push those pixels into their living room. That's basically it. And so

1112
01:28:32,243 --> 01:28:41,523
we actually, on the subscription model, there's going to be users that we lose money on who watch

1113
01:28:41,523 --> 01:28:45,623
a ton of movies and a ton of content. And then there's going to be users who like, you know,

1114
01:28:45,683 --> 01:28:50,443
I've been on vacation. I didn't log in for two, three months. And that was our margin for them.

1115
01:28:50,703 --> 01:28:54,863
So there's going to be users like whatever they don't, the amount of time that they don't consume

1116
01:28:54,863 --> 01:29:02,063
is essentially what we're operating our margin on. And, um, you know, there's not going to be

1117
01:29:02,063 --> 01:29:08,203
the people on Netflix who really cost Netflix a ton of money are the people who binge watch shows

1118
01:29:08,203 --> 01:29:16,903
like 50 hours a week. Like they just don't stop watching long form shows over and over again.

1119
01:29:16,903 --> 01:29:21,483
But the person who watches like three, four, five hours of stuff, you know, that's no big deal. So

1120
01:29:21,483 --> 01:29:30,043
at scale, it's the subscription model. Um, in the short term, it's, uh, probably rentals,

1121
01:29:30,203 --> 01:29:35,123
but it depends, right? I mean, the math is weird. Like, let's say, you know, let's say you hosted

1122
01:29:35,123 --> 01:29:41,483
your project on IndieHub for the next, you know, 50 years and nobody rented it after tomorrow.

1123
01:29:42,283 --> 01:29:47,483
Like then I still have to pay to host all of that. I'm still paying for the storage. I'm still

1124
01:29:47,483 --> 01:29:51,863
paying for that to be on our servers. And so over time, I could actually lose all of them,

1125
01:29:52,043 --> 01:29:55,923
all of whatever profit or revenue was generated, whatever margin was there could be wiped out

1126
01:29:55,923 --> 01:30:02,443
based on how long I host it. So it's a bunch of really complicated math. Um, but essentially at

1127
01:30:02,443 --> 01:30:08,623
scale, it's subscriptions that would make us the best margin. But in fairness, the storage costs

1128
01:30:08,623 --> 01:30:15,143
are not as much compared to the compute costs, right? The biggest costs. Yeah. The biggest

1129
01:30:15,143 --> 01:30:16,603
Storage is relatively cheap.

1130
01:30:17,463 --> 01:30:21,623
The biggest cost is pushing the data to you by far.

1131
01:30:21,923 --> 01:30:22,003
Yeah.

1132
01:30:22,643 --> 01:30:22,743
Yeah.

1133
01:30:23,003 --> 01:30:23,223
Yeah.

1134
01:30:23,763 --> 01:30:28,543
So it won't be a tragedy for you if people don't watch it for 50 years and you're still hosting it.

1135
01:30:29,143 --> 01:30:30,683
I'll host it as long as we're around.

1136
01:30:30,723 --> 01:30:31,443
I promise you that.

1137
01:30:31,943 --> 01:30:36,723
As long as you don't unpublish it and IndieHub is still around, you'll be there.

1138
01:30:36,723 --> 01:30:45,523
so zach you know with the burning question you said maybe in a few years you you think about a

1139
01:30:45,523 --> 01:30:50,863
house of cards type scenario but but then as we were talking about it you were talking about this

1140
01:30:50,863 --> 01:30:55,323
potential bifurcation that could happen in the next 10 years between the studio and the

1141
01:30:55,323 --> 01:31:04,283
infrastructure so with i guess with those two in in some sense conflicting uh pieces in mind

1142
01:31:04,283 --> 01:31:08,783
Would you, do you have any plans for producing original content?

1143
01:31:09,483 --> 01:31:10,323
Fantastic question.

1144
01:31:10,683 --> 01:31:17,463
At this point, I don't precisely because they're just two different businesses.

1145
01:31:18,203 --> 01:31:28,463
And it's, the big stuff that the big studios are making are like, you know, they're struggling to find those profitability, to find profitability in those projects.

1146
01:31:28,463 --> 01:31:47,163
So really my main goal and the goal that I'm really laser focused on is to make IndieHub the best place for filmmakers from concept to exhibition. And if we can do that and we can make it profitable or at least increase margins for filmmakers to bring their work over to IndieHub, then I've done my job.

1147
01:31:47,163 --> 01:32:01,883
And I'll be really, really hyped if we can get some independent filmmakers to fund their projects in a decentralized way like you're doing Avi with Angor and maybe a company like Geyser or whatever these crowdfunding platforms are.

1148
01:32:03,403 --> 01:32:13,563
It would be fantastic to see some shows and some projects earn a return on IndieHub that's better than they would have made anywhere else.

1149
01:32:13,563 --> 01:32:14,723
And so I'd be happy with that.

1150
01:32:14,723 --> 01:32:29,823
And then the next phase really is that we need to build in the crowdfunding capabilities directly within IndieHub for filmmakers to go to their investors or their fan base and raise money.

1151
01:32:30,303 --> 01:32:31,643
That's going to take some time.

1152
01:32:32,043 --> 01:32:34,703
That's going to be an expensive lift just from a legal perspective.

1153
01:32:35,203 --> 01:32:38,303
But that's where the puck is going and that's where we're skating.

1154
01:32:38,303 --> 01:32:53,463
So if we can have a handful of projects that are able to fundraise in a more decentralized way and return capital in a more decentralized way in a successful way on IndyHub, I'll be happy about that.

1155
01:32:54,083 --> 01:32:56,443
Producing original content is a huge lift.

1156
01:32:57,143 --> 01:32:58,303
It's very complicated.

1157
01:32:58,463 --> 01:32:59,043
It's very challenging.

1158
01:32:59,143 --> 01:33:00,683
And it requires a tremendous amount of risk.

1159
01:33:00,683 --> 01:33:04,923
And for the foreseeable future, I would say five years or so, maybe more.

1160
01:33:06,403 --> 01:33:09,283
I don't see that happening because it's just a huge distraction.

1161
01:33:09,583 --> 01:33:10,503
And it's just challenging.

1162
01:33:10,603 --> 01:33:12,463
Making a good movie is hard enough as it is.

1163
01:33:13,663 --> 01:33:14,103
Yeah.

1164
01:33:14,603 --> 01:33:16,043
He's waiting on interest rates on.

1165
01:33:16,303 --> 01:33:16,743
Exactly.

1166
01:33:17,563 --> 01:33:21,803
We're waiting on those strike loans to go down to sub 3% and then I'll be...

1167
01:33:22,783 --> 01:33:28,403
He's going to remake Bitcoin Shooters, No More Inflation.

1168
01:33:28,403 --> 01:33:29,783
Mike, if you're listening to this,

1169
01:33:30,043 --> 01:33:31,863
just throw your movie up on IndieHub.

1170
01:33:32,143 --> 01:33:32,803
It's no problem.

1171
01:33:33,023 --> 01:33:33,503
It'll be fine.

1172
01:33:33,823 --> 01:33:34,303
The water's warm.

1173
01:33:37,823 --> 01:33:38,903
So what's next, man?

1174
01:33:38,963 --> 01:33:40,023
What's next for IndieHub?

1175
01:33:41,723 --> 01:33:43,363
Man, honestly, like a lot of this.

1176
01:33:43,423 --> 01:33:44,843
So I would say the phase we're in right now

1177
01:33:44,895 --> 01:33:49,435
is we're going to really start in earnest

1178
01:33:49,435 --> 01:33:51,955
trying to onboard films and filmmakers and artists,

1179
01:33:52,215 --> 01:33:54,275
podcasts, doing shows, getting the word out,

1180
01:33:54,375 --> 01:33:55,075
going to film festivals.

1181
01:33:55,535 --> 01:33:57,435
I've kind of been all over the place this summer

1182
01:33:57,435 --> 01:33:59,335
talking about it to people

1183
01:33:59,335 --> 01:34:01,875
and starting to onboard filmmakers.

1184
01:34:04,015 --> 01:34:08,935
And we're going to probably start our initial raise,

1185
01:34:09,055 --> 01:34:10,195
like an angel raise,

1186
01:34:10,595 --> 01:34:12,375
now that the MVP works.

1187
01:34:13,155 --> 01:34:14,775
And, you know, response has been great.

1188
01:34:14,775 --> 01:34:17,615
Honestly, the film, I think you asked that earlier, like what's the response from normal

1189
01:34:17,615 --> 01:34:17,975
filmmakers?

1190
01:34:18,135 --> 01:34:19,675
And they're generally ecstatic.

1191
01:34:19,855 --> 01:34:22,475
Like almost everybody I talked to about this is like, holy shit, that's fucking incredible.

1192
01:34:22,615 --> 01:34:22,975
Like what?

1193
01:34:23,075 --> 01:34:24,775
I get paid like as I'm watching it.

1194
01:34:24,815 --> 01:34:25,335
That's crazy.

1195
01:34:25,635 --> 01:34:27,335
Because that's not the reality they live in right now.

1196
01:34:29,115 --> 01:34:30,535
So the response there has been great.

1197
01:34:31,915 --> 01:34:36,735
Talking to filmmakers, do a little marketing for filmmakers, just to onboard filmmakers.

1198
01:34:36,895 --> 01:34:38,995
We're not, we're not marketing to audience members right now.

1199
01:34:39,035 --> 01:34:40,815
We need to build our library first and foremost.

1200
01:34:40,815 --> 01:34:46,675
um obviously projects that come in we'll market with them and and talk to their fans and promote

1201
01:34:46,675 --> 01:35:04,393
as best we can but we need to get we need to get content on there um and then we gonna do you know get the pitch deck ready to go and and we got an idea We going to market to like a very finite amount of people in the industry who have a vested interest in sort of keeping the art form alive and going uh independent filmmakers

1202
01:35:04,613 --> 01:35:09,193
successful ones that, that have a name and a little legacy. And, um, I want to go find a couple,

1203
01:35:09,373 --> 01:35:14,533
a couple angels and, uh, give us, you know, a few years of runway to really, really hit the ground

1204
01:35:14,533 --> 01:35:15,373
running with development.

1205
01:35:16,473 --> 01:35:18,213
So we can integrate things like Noster

1206
01:35:18,213 --> 01:35:21,733
and start to work on the investment side of things

1207
01:35:21,733 --> 01:35:24,593
and start to do a little bit of a marketing push

1208
01:35:24,593 --> 01:35:27,873
and hire some talented individuals

1209
01:35:27,873 --> 01:35:28,933
to bring them on board here.

1210
01:35:29,353 --> 01:35:30,353
That's kind of where we're at, man.

1211
01:35:30,393 --> 01:35:31,973
We're like early, early days here.

1212
01:35:33,553 --> 01:35:35,053
Angels, if you're listening,

1213
01:35:35,713 --> 01:35:36,533
you heard Zach.

1214
01:35:38,813 --> 01:35:41,413
Come on in and make the future

1215
01:35:41,413 --> 01:35:44,413
of independent cinema with Zach.

1216
01:35:44,533 --> 01:35:46,333
So Zach, any...

1217
01:35:46,333 --> 01:35:48,793
And get Avi's finding home over 100%.

1218
01:35:48,793 --> 01:35:49,273
Yes, let's go.

1219
01:35:49,273 --> 01:35:49,813
Come on, angels.

1220
01:35:50,313 --> 01:35:51,193
Let's do it.

1221
01:35:52,633 --> 01:35:54,213
Anything else you want to plug, Zach?

1222
01:35:55,493 --> 01:35:59,053
Man, I think you guys did a great job.

1223
01:35:59,213 --> 01:36:10,491
It was a fantastic conversation If you guys want to check out IndieHub IndieHub I

1224
01:36:10,491 --> 01:36:12,271
slash register.

1225
01:36:12,971 --> 01:36:15,431
Sign up as an audience member or filmmaker for free.

1226
01:36:16,911 --> 01:36:18,171
If you have any questions,

1227
01:36:18,251 --> 01:36:19,271
you can hit me up on Noster,

1228
01:36:19,811 --> 01:36:21,831
Zach at IndieHub.xyz

1229
01:36:21,831 --> 01:36:23,951
or IndieHub at IndieHub.studio.

1230
01:36:25,151 --> 01:36:26,911
I'm on Twitter at IndieHub.

1231
01:36:27,731 --> 01:36:29,331
And, you know, get in touch.

1232
01:36:29,571 --> 01:36:31,271
You're basically talking to me directly,

1233
01:36:31,631 --> 01:36:34,631
and we're just going to be out there trying to solve as many problems as we can

1234
01:36:34,631 --> 01:36:35,591
and get things going.

1235
01:36:36,891 --> 01:36:38,151
Avi's project's on here.

1236
01:36:38,571 --> 01:36:39,871
Finding Home, it's fantastic.

1237
01:36:40,311 --> 01:36:41,991
Thank you, Avi, for throwing it up here.

1238
01:36:42,971 --> 01:36:45,391
And I hope response has been good.

1239
01:36:45,511 --> 01:36:46,151
I'm not sure.

1240
01:36:47,231 --> 01:36:48,551
What are things that look like on your end?

1241
01:36:48,631 --> 01:36:50,251
Have people been checking it out?

1242
01:36:51,051 --> 01:36:54,651
It has been very positive, Zach, I'll say.

1243
01:36:55,091 --> 01:36:55,451
Yes.

1244
01:36:55,891 --> 01:36:56,131
Yes.

1245
01:36:58,211 --> 01:36:59,011
It's been great.

1246
01:36:59,011 --> 01:37:00,451
overwhelming actually

1247
01:37:00,451 --> 01:37:01,791
that's fantastic

1248
01:37:01,791 --> 01:37:04,091
for sure

1249
01:37:04,091 --> 01:37:04,691
so Zach

1250
01:37:04,691 --> 01:37:06,671
appreciate you taking the time

1251
01:37:06,671 --> 01:37:07,791
educating us

1252
01:37:07,791 --> 01:37:18,090
on all the wonderful things you doing with independent film thank you for dishing Interledger and moving to Lightning I hope you stay We will We will

1253
01:37:21,890 --> 01:37:23,230
Anything else for me, QW?

1254
01:37:25,170 --> 01:37:27,570
No, just it was great meeting you.

1255
01:37:28,070 --> 01:37:31,130
I'm in Phoenix, so if you're ever in Phoenix, hit me up.

1256
01:37:31,690 --> 01:37:32,830
I'm not far from you.

1257
01:37:32,970 --> 01:37:38,170
It's a little hot right now, but, you know, I'll survive and just keep prompting.

1258
01:37:39,410 --> 01:37:42,330
just keep prompting, just keep prompting.

1259
01:37:47,330 --> 01:37:52,450
That's it. So thanks for coming on. I'll, all those, what,

1260
01:37:52,530 --> 01:37:55,770
what you rattled off, I'll put in the show notes. So all those links,

1261
01:37:55,770 --> 01:38:01,570
how to get in contact with Zach, Indie hub, register, all the above.

1262
01:38:01,730 --> 01:38:05,650
So that will be in the show notes and that's it.

1263
01:38:05,650 --> 01:38:08,090
and thank you for tuning in to Pleb Chain Radio.

1264
01:38:08,410 --> 01:38:11,030
If you appreciate us as much as we appreciate you,

1265
01:38:11,530 --> 01:38:15,110
listen on Fountain App and consider hitting the subscribe button.

1266
01:38:15,750 --> 01:38:17,970
Until next week, gentle plebs, farewell.

1267
01:38:17,970 --> 01:38:18,570
Goodbye.

1268
01:38:19,530 --> 01:38:19,930
Ciao.