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Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses

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on the intersection of Nostra and Bitcoin protocols.

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Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current

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thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,

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doers, and plebs.

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All right, we are live.

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Welcome, gentle pioneers, to the lightning-laced airwaves.

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Today is Friday the 26th of December, a merry belated Christmas to all you pioneers.

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It is 1 p.m. on the east coast of the United States at the time of recording.

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This is episode 143 of Plep Chain Radio, and this is going to be a fun one.

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Our guest today is a man who's probably forgotten more about Podcasting 2.0 in a day than most can remember in a lifetime, Chad F.

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Looking forward to that conversation.

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And don't miss our Value for Value music segment coming up later in the show.

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Yet another independent music banger that emerged from the messy and chaotic human web.

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That is the Noster Commons section.

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stay tuned for that 90% of your boost during the song will go directly to the artist and all the

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more reason folks that if you are listening to the show on apple or spotify first of all thank

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you for listening but i would urge you to hit pause and switch over to the fountain podcasting

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app where you can earn some stats and support the value for value revolution while you listen

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And while you're there, I would appreciate it if you hit that subscribe button.

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Your support and generosity goes a long way in keeping this mic warm and the podcast ad-free.

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And for the very first time, folks, this show will be streamed live from my live self-hosted streaming server.

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And because of the magic of NIP 53, the stream will be available on any NOSTA client that supports streaming such as Amethyst, NOSTA, Fountain, Primal, and NOSTRIA.

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July 18, the sequel to my first novel, 24, is now out, as is the second edition of 24 itself.

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The links to both are in the show notes.

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The Nosfabrica Web of Trust Hackathon, or Wattathon, is underway, with the sixth group call concluding a short while ago today.

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The teams are still forming, and some of them are getting ready to finalize their idea submissions, but it's not too late to join in.

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You can find more information at nosfabrica.com slash Wattathon. That's W-O-T-A-T-H-O-N.

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And as we head into the new year, I want to launch a new segment for the show.

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I want you to use your sats to dissent.

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If you disagree with anything I say in the sermon, let's hear it and let's hear why.

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I'm turning the boost segment from a fan club into a fight club.

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And let's start right now with today's upcoming sermon.

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If you think I'm naive or I missed a fatal flaw, boost in and attack the argument.

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I will read your boosts, the three highest value counterpoints.

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I will read them without a counter argument of my own.

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Well, I will read them verbatim and unless it's completely egregious, I will leave it at that.

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So don't be a cheerleader, be a stress tester.

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And with that, here is the sermon, the bridge.

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History doesn't repeat, but it certainly rhymes.

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And if you listen closely to the history of the internet, you can hear a very specific rhythm.

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It is the oscillating beat between the open frontier and the walled garden, between the cathedral and the bazaar.

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For the last couple of years, we've been presented with a rather strange choice.

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You're either an RSS fundamentalist, clushing your XML feeds like ancient scrolls,

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or you're a neophile surfing the high-speed relays of NOSTA.

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We've been sold a false dichotomy that suggests these two beautiful, chaotic, open movements are somehow at odds,

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that one must die for the other to live.

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But that is a failure of imagination.

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The truth is, RSS and NOSTA are not enemies.

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They're not even competitors.

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They are, in fact, the two missing halves of a single sovereign nervous system.

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Think about it.

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RSS is the bedrock.

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It is the immutable record of, I made this.

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It is the library.

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It is the storage of the artifact itself, be it a podcast episode about macroeconomics or an independent track from a musician in Nashville.

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It stands alone, asking permission from no one.

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But a library without visitors is just a tomb.

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And there, perhaps, was the first misstep.

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The shelves were built, but it was the algorithmic overlords who told you what to read.

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Apple, Spotify and YouTube gladly stepped in to become curators

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And they failed, as we well know

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With the promise of convenience, they took away serendipity

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They replaced human taste with engagement metrics

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And that is where NOSTA comes in

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NOSTA isn't the library

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It is the public square just outside the library doors

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It is the fabric of trust we've been dreaming of.

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It is the social layer that RSS always lacked.

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It is the discovery engine fueled by the cryptographic attestations of people you actually respect, not by ad tech.

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I've been talking a lot lately about music on the show and about how broken the discovery model is.

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Imagine a world where playlists are curated by a decentralized list of tastemakers you subscribe to.

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A world where value flows directly from the listener's lightning wallet to the artist's node,

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riding the rails of podcasting 2.0 tags, signaled and amplified through NOSTA relays.

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This is the harmony that is possible.

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A world where RSS provides the sovereignty of publication and NOSTA provides the sovereignty of discovery.

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There is no need to burn down the old world.

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We can build a bridge to the new one.

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And standing right in the middle of that bridge, welding the steel beams together with a smile, is today's guest.

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He's a veteran of the podcasting space, a champion of Valley for Value, and a man who understands that the future of media isn't about platforms, it's about protocols.

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So here is the bridge builder himself, Chad F. Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, good sir.

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Thanks for having me on and good morning, fellow plebs.

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GM indeed.

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yes that was a nice uh that was a nice sermon and i think that kind of it actually kind of summed up

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kind of some of my thinking on this stuff as well but we'll get into that

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and it is interesting yeah before we get into that i actually want to get into this first

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there is a legend that you are the person who sent the first ever booster gram is that

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historically accurate or just a myth no that's that's a myth but i i don't know you know that's

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actually a really good question i wonder who the first person was it would have been someone testing

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something out but i am the first person to boost a lot of shows so i'm kind of i've been called the

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derrick ross of podcasting 2.0 i'm kind of like the welcoming committee and like when i see a new

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show pop up i like to send them a boost to just let them know that everything is kind of working

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so yeah i'm i'm not the first but i'm one of the first

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so chad you said you're like the derrick ross uh who we joke in the nostor world uh as is the ceo

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of NOSTA, but he is certainly one of our most enthusiastic evangelists. So you are that of the

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RSS world, and people in that space are, I'm sure, very familiar with your work. But for folks on

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NOSTA who might not be as familiar, maybe it'd be helpful if you told us a little bit about your

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journey and then how you found Nostra. All right. So this actually goes all the way back to 2010,

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but it's a quick story. So 2010, I started listening to this little podcast called No Agenda

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with Adam Curry and John C. Dvorak. So I listened to that for a decade and that's where this

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value for value model kind of started where it you can do away with advertising if you just ask your audience to support you with they call time talent and treasure so that money um promoting the show sharing the show um helping with art and stuff

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so i listened to that for a decade and then one day alex jones gets de-platformed from

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Apple Podcasts

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and we kind of realized

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that Apple is the

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centralized corporate

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index for podcasting

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so a lot of apps used it

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so he got deplatformed

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and apps like Overcast

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and I can't think of any off

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so all the apps

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that were used in Apple

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Alex Jones got kicked off all of them

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so Adam

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spins up Podcast Index

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and

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And so it was first to take back control of the index.

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So we just scraped everything and built a new independent index

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that's also run off the value for value model.

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So like podcasting apps or hosting companies or just anyone help support and run that.

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So we kind of do that.

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And then we're like, okay, now we need to work on payments.

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So a lot of us were using PayPal and actually still do.

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But Adam stumbled upon the Bitcoin Lightning Network.

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I think it was, I think it might have actually been Marty Bent from, well, it was Tales from the Crypt then, but now it's just TFTC.

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um yeah so he kind of saw what he was doing with these um small instant

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micropayments and we were kind of like kind of familiar with bitcoin but we weren't really using

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it but it's kind of come up before by the actually it's a donation method for no agenda so

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So we start looking into Bitcoin.

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I get orange-pilled from that probably five years ago.

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And then Noster kind of comes into the picture,

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and I start picking up vibe coding

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and start going on podcasts to try to tie all this together.

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because I just started out as a listener for like the podcasting 2.0 stuff,

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and I was following Adam.

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So he started this new podcast project.

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So I was like, all right, I'll jump on board.

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Pretty much a beta tester for apps,

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helping out with the lightning stuff when it was early,

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just making sure it was working and everything.

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And then I started vibe coding,

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and now I can actually take like five years of knowledge

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and piece it all together and just try to pull this RSS and Noster

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and Bitcoin pieces together and kind of see where they fit.

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That's kind of an overview.

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And what was your first Vibe-goated app?

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I forget the first one.

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I think I was using the early version of Shakespeare

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to try to make like a podcasting app, I think,

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because Derek Ross put a video up, I don't know,

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five, six months ago of him vibe coding.

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And I watched that like four or five times over a weekend.

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And I kind of realized I could do it.

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But I think it was,

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I think at first it was just kind of like stumbling around

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because it was a lot to learn.

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Like that was the first time I ever used GitHub

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or like really started diving under the hood for this RSS stuff.

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And then like any good vibe coder,

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you get about 12 different projects going

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that you kind of shuffle between.

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And you see your life savings drain away from you,

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which is the other thing that happens.

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yeah um that was actually one of the things that like derrick ross

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kind of warned about that was one of his reasons of putting out that video

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of how to do it um like cheaper but no it actually hasn't been

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i mean it's not cheap but it's not terribly expensive

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but i'm kind of i'm kind of building the stuff i wish

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was out there so it's uh i don't know i can afford it so i'm just kind of diving in

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and you've built something called Stablecraft, correct?

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Yes, that is my take on a value-for-value music player.

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So what exactly does Stablecraft do?

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Well, for anyone listening, it's stable, K-R-A-F-T, dot app.

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um it's a at the bare bones it is a rss music player um this podcasting 2.0 stuff

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like came from podcasting and then we saw an opportunity to add music to it because it's

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really nothing like it's it's not any different it's still artwork it's still like the metadata

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it's still an mp3 and actually joe martin kind of saw this before a lot of us because he was

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he was one of the early ones to just like put his music up basically as a podcast

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but um podcast apps don't make great music players so a few of us have been trying to

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Bob Coderone, and that's what Stablecraft is now.

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So it pulls in music from Podcast Index and just displays it.

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I mean, if you go in there and comb around, all the artwork, the descriptions,

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and everything all come right from the RSS feed.

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and then it also has

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boost

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it has like auto boost

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you can turn on when the songs are over

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a little bit of Nostra stuff

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like you can log in with Nostra

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if you send a boost

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when you're logged in with Nostra

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it sends that to Nostra

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favorites with Nostra

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kind of work

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but I've just been

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it's just kind of been like this behemoth

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that I've had in the background

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that I've been slowly working on.

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So I'll kind of do like a little small vibe code app

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and then kind of like to kind of learn

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and then put it on Stablecraft and then, yeah.

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So it's just kind of like a catch-all

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and it's my take on a music player.

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So that is really, it's a simple app

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in the sense that what it gives the user

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is just a reliable music player from all the independent songs

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that are on Podcast Index.

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Correct.

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Yeah.

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So let's actually dive into the thing we alluded to at the very beginning,

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which is, okay, so maybe I'll take a step back here, Chad.

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I'm not as familiar with this world as you are.

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I mean, I've had this podcast for three years,

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and we've been on Fountain,

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And so, you know, this sort of the boost and all of that stuff, Podcasting 2.0 has always been in the background.

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Haven't really paid that much attention to the stuff that happens behind the scenes.

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And, you know, I've gotten the sense over the last year or so that there is some tension between the NOST.

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First of all, there is a NOST camp versus a Podcasting 2.0, RSS camp.

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And there is some tension there.

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And I've been trying to understand it a little more.

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I mean, this conversation hopefully will educate me more on that.

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But I've certainly noticed that, you know, it's not all kumbaya.

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So what is your perspective on that?

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Is there a disconnect between the NOSTA world and the podcasting 2.0 world?

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And why do you think that is?

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00:19:22,133 --> 00:19:32,673
yeah there is a disconnect and a lot of it a lot of it comes down to

228
00:19:32,673 --> 00:19:40,993
kind of like when you came into this because like like podcasting 2.0 has been going on for

229
00:19:40,993 --> 00:19:47,553
five years and it's it's changed a lot so depending on how new you are

230
00:19:47,553 --> 00:19:50,253
kind of depends.

231
00:19:51,013 --> 00:19:51,393
I don't know.

232
00:19:51,553 --> 00:19:53,173
Like, you don't...

233
00:19:53,173 --> 00:19:54,573
Like, it's a lot of stuff to cover.

234
00:19:55,533 --> 00:19:57,753
So, like, if you came in within the last year,

235
00:19:58,073 --> 00:20:00,733
you might only know the Noster Fountain stuff,

236
00:20:00,833 --> 00:20:04,273
but there's also four years before that

237
00:20:04,273 --> 00:20:05,693
that kind of led us here.

238
00:20:06,573 --> 00:20:09,013
And really, I think...

239
00:20:09,013 --> 00:20:10,313
If I'm being honest,

240
00:20:10,313 --> 00:20:12,473
what I think it comes down to is

241
00:20:12,473 --> 00:20:14,813
we...

242
00:20:14,813 --> 00:20:16,593
The Podcasting 2.0 side

243
00:20:16,593 --> 00:20:20,213
we had existing podcasts.

244
00:20:21,053 --> 00:20:26,473
We had existing apps that we added Lightning payments into.

245
00:20:28,453 --> 00:20:33,713
And even in the earlier days, Adam went around to a lot of Bitcoin podcasts

246
00:20:33,713 --> 00:20:35,233
to kind of promote this.

247
00:20:35,693 --> 00:20:39,013
And I think Tales from the Crypt was like the first Bitcoin podcast

248
00:20:39,013 --> 00:20:41,893
I ever listened to years ago.

249
00:20:41,893 --> 00:20:57,925
So he kind of goes around and lets his Bitcoin podcast know kind of what we up to And we kind of get some help from the Bitcoin side And then it kind of dies down

250
00:20:59,125 --> 00:21:03,985
A lot of the plumbing with Lightning stuff has changed over the years.

251
00:21:07,405 --> 00:21:08,905
So we're kind of over here.

252
00:21:08,985 --> 00:21:10,065
We're podcasters.

253
00:21:10,225 --> 00:21:12,425
We're building podcast apps.

254
00:21:12,425 --> 00:21:13,465
We're trying to add Lightning.

255
00:21:13,465 --> 00:21:23,065
and like we just don't get many bitcoiners like trying to come over to help and then like fountain

256
00:21:23,065 --> 00:21:32,345
launches and they're bitcoin focused so all the bitcoiners use fountain and i mean fountains i've

257
00:21:32,345 --> 00:21:37,965
been using fountain since it before it came out actually and i think they're doing good stuff but

258
00:21:37,965 --> 00:21:44,785
there's more out there than fountain so i think like we were like we were trying to go real broad

259
00:21:44,785 --> 00:21:54,885
with it but like bitcoiners only know about fountain and now that fountain has nostr

260
00:21:54,885 --> 00:22:04,245
the bitcoin nostr community is even more narrow where it's um because before it was like oh your

261
00:22:04,245 --> 00:22:10,405
app doesn't have easy lightning stuff like fountain has but now it's like oh you don't even have

262
00:22:10,405 --> 00:22:17,385
nostr so like we're not interested so it's like you talked about like bridge building and

263
00:22:17,385 --> 00:22:28,365
from my perspective i don't see much of the nostr bitcoin side coming over to the rss side to kind of

264
00:22:28,365 --> 00:22:33,685
help out like we're not we're not meeting in the middle and i think that's a lot of

265
00:22:34,245 --> 00:22:44,385
where the tension comes from and plus the well like a lot of us that are over that are on noster

266
00:22:44,385 --> 00:22:51,865
kind of preaching the rss stuff like we've been part of this no agenda community for like over a

267
00:22:51,865 --> 00:23:02,105
decade and like we're rooted in rss and like anything we build has to be rss

268
00:23:02,105 --> 00:23:08,425
but that doesn't mean that like every i'm trying to think i want to word this

269
00:23:08,425 --> 00:23:16,365
like kind of like how you mentioned in the sermon it's like rss is our base layer and then we added

270
00:23:16,365 --> 00:23:21,125
all kinds of features on top of that and we added bitcoin and like we're adding a little bit of

271
00:23:21,125 --> 00:23:30,925
nostr now and i think if more nostr like apps and services would kind of pull in the rss stuff i

272
00:23:30,925 --> 00:23:36,085
I mean, because there's millions of podcast feeds out there just waiting for people to build apps.

273
00:23:36,725 --> 00:23:42,825
And there's thousands of music feeds floating around out there just waiting.

274
00:23:44,165 --> 00:23:46,145
Because I kind of see that too with the Nostra stuff.

275
00:23:46,145 --> 00:23:57,865
Like, Nostra doesn't really have – like, you kind of miss – like, you don't have the catalog to kind of build these apps.

276
00:23:57,865 --> 00:24:01,845
because you'll build an app and then you don't have any,

277
00:24:02,625 --> 00:24:04,745
there's no music in it to test it.

278
00:24:05,985 --> 00:24:10,365
And we have a bunch of music.

279
00:24:10,585 --> 00:24:13,785
So I think it's just, it's a lot of stuff.

280
00:24:13,865 --> 00:24:18,025
I think it's lost in technical weeds and it's a lot of stuff's broken

281
00:24:18,025 --> 00:24:21,305
that necessarily won't fit together.

282
00:24:21,305 --> 00:24:37,825
Well, I think oftentimes with technology adoption, especially when you talk about open protocols, there are network effects and path dependence that have made a protocol succeed.

283
00:24:37,925 --> 00:24:41,585
It might not have been the most technically elegant protocol.

284
00:24:41,765 --> 00:24:45,405
And I'm speaking hypothetically here, Chad, not specifically, but RSS.

285
00:24:45,405 --> 00:24:50,545
It might not be the perfect technical solution, but it was good enough and it was open.

286
00:24:51,145 --> 00:24:55,305
And there were some early decisions made that drove people's behavior that reinforced the usage.

287
00:24:55,505 --> 00:24:57,625
That's what I mean by part dependence.

288
00:24:57,765 --> 00:24:59,365
And then that led to network effects.

289
00:24:59,665 --> 00:25:03,865
And so if you try to shift it to what you think is the perfect solution.

290
00:25:04,085 --> 00:25:13,045
So I think this is some of the unhelpful conversations that I've heard from the NOSTA folks, which is, oh, no, everything needs to be on NOSTA.

291
00:25:13,045 --> 00:25:17,805
why are we wasting time on a 25-year-old protocol, right?

292
00:25:17,905 --> 00:25:19,725
It's like, let's just bring everything to NOSTA.

293
00:25:19,805 --> 00:25:23,345
Well, RSS is an open protocol,

294
00:25:23,745 --> 00:25:27,805
and you're getting distribution-free out of the box.

295
00:25:28,425 --> 00:25:29,865
Why do you want to reinvent the wheel,

296
00:25:29,985 --> 00:25:32,225
especially if reinventing the wheel means

297
00:25:32,225 --> 00:25:35,945
unraveling path dependence and network effects?

298
00:25:36,925 --> 00:25:40,505
And I think a lot of folks who say these types of things,

299
00:25:40,505 --> 00:25:42,345
like, well, let's put everything on NOSTA,

300
00:25:42,345 --> 00:25:45,605
just don't recognize that part.

301
00:25:46,025 --> 00:25:49,105
So I think there is a large opportunity here.

302
00:25:49,685 --> 00:25:53,845
And frankly, why do we need to solve distribution with NOSTA?

303
00:25:54,265 --> 00:25:58,445
NOSTA is better for identity, reputation, and curation, right?

304
00:25:58,445 --> 00:26:02,025
That comes through your – because your identity is portable,

305
00:26:02,225 --> 00:26:03,765
because your social graph is portable,

306
00:26:04,345 --> 00:26:07,805
your web of trust travels with you across different applications.

307
00:26:07,985 --> 00:26:09,505
So I think that's where NOSTA shines.

308
00:26:09,505 --> 00:26:14,645
And I'm hopeful, and this is not an empty hub, by the way, right?

309
00:26:15,465 --> 00:26:21,025
Part of my interest in this conversation came from my tech side, right?

310
00:26:21,225 --> 00:26:26,305
I have a tech startup called Nosfabrica where we're building Web of Trust tools.

311
00:26:26,825 --> 00:26:36,185
And in thinking about this use case, I think it's a really good opportunity to showcase discovery and curation using Web of Trust, right?

312
00:26:37,085 --> 00:26:45,345
So while I'm hopeful that other people will start building this type of integration between RSS and NOSTA in 2026,

313
00:26:46,105 --> 00:26:51,365
my company is certainly going to look into it, into building the tools and do something about it.

314
00:26:51,865 --> 00:26:54,125
So I think there's good stuff ahead.

315
00:26:54,125 --> 00:27:04,905
I know, Chad, you mentioned the crossing of the, why haven't more people crossed over from the Bitcoin and NOSTA side onto the RSS side?

316
00:27:04,905 --> 00:27:13,545
I think part of it is just not recognizing the network effects and the part dependence that RSS has already built.

317
00:27:15,785 --> 00:27:16,425
Yeah.

318
00:27:17,385 --> 00:27:28,945
Yeah, we definitely do get the this is old technology argument a lot, but it's also tested.

319
00:27:29,585 --> 00:27:33,845
I mean, we added Lightning payments to RSS.

320
00:27:33,845 --> 00:27:39,645
So if we can do that, I think we can build anything really.

321
00:27:40,905 --> 00:27:46,685
And looking at this kind of through the Bitcoin Noster lens,

322
00:27:47,225 --> 00:27:53,285
I think what Fountain does is kind of the way to go

323
00:27:53,285 --> 00:27:58,125
where it's RSS for distribution.

324
00:27:58,125 --> 00:28:01,765
because like if you use RSS, like you can,

325
00:28:01,925 --> 00:28:06,125
like you can be in any of the old podcast apps.

326
00:28:06,185 --> 00:28:10,765
Like you mentioned, um, if people are listening on Apple or Spotify,

327
00:28:10,765 --> 00:28:15,085
you know, you thank them, but maybe try a fountain.

328
00:28:15,865 --> 00:28:18,225
And that there's kind of like my point. Like if you,

329
00:28:18,485 --> 00:28:22,145
like if you put your stuff on an RSS feed,

330
00:28:22,465 --> 00:28:26,285
all of the podcasting apps pick it up.

331
00:28:26,285 --> 00:28:32,845
So you can try to push your Bitcoin Nostra thing,

332
00:28:33,445 --> 00:28:37,825
but you can also have that go out to all the other apps too.

333
00:28:38,185 --> 00:28:41,765
Because really you just want people listening to your show

334
00:28:41,765 --> 00:28:45,125
because that's how you first get them in the door.

335
00:28:45,265 --> 00:28:49,725
They just need to listen, and hopefully they stick around for a few,

336
00:28:49,725 --> 00:28:55,745
and then they can maybe learn more about Bitcoin and Nostra through that.

337
00:28:55,745 --> 00:28:58,965
So Fountain's kind of like RSS for the distribution.

338
00:29:00,325 --> 00:29:09,525
Then Bitcoin is the payment, which, you know, it's your boost and streaming stats everyone knows.

339
00:29:10,385 --> 00:29:12,965
And then it's like the social layer on top.

340
00:29:13,825 --> 00:29:24,525
So if you're in Fountain and you send a boost and you have Nostra tied in, that boost goes to Nostra and people can interact with it there.

341
00:29:24,525 --> 00:29:28,605
and I actually think that's a really cool feature

342
00:29:28,605 --> 00:29:32,085
and I actually, one of the first things

343
00:29:32,085 --> 00:29:33,845
that I did vibe code was a bot

344
00:29:33,845 --> 00:29:37,285
that reads my Lightning node

345
00:29:37,285 --> 00:29:39,725
for the same type of boost

346
00:29:39,725 --> 00:29:41,705
and posts those to Noster

347
00:29:41,705 --> 00:29:45,665
because I wanted something similar

348
00:29:45,665 --> 00:29:48,425
but I didn't want to have to use Fountain.

349
00:29:48,425 --> 00:29:50,725
I wanted to be able to use the other apps.

350
00:29:52,265 --> 00:29:54,265
Is that the chired boost bot?

351
00:29:54,525 --> 00:29:57,185
I think I've seen it repost a few times.

352
00:29:57,885 --> 00:29:59,805
Yeah, the Chad F Boost Bot.

353
00:29:59,805 --> 00:30:05,665
So that's kind of my version of what Fountain does,

354
00:30:06,185 --> 00:30:13,185
but it's just a little bot that is kind of standalone and stuff.

355
00:30:13,525 --> 00:30:18,005
But, yeah, but I think if anyone, like anyone interested in trying to, like,

356
00:30:18,045 --> 00:30:23,045
combine these, I'll say three technologies because it kind of is three

357
00:30:23,045 --> 00:30:28,605
different things even though Nostra and Bitcoin are kind of tied together but I would say kind of

358
00:30:28,605 --> 00:30:35,925
look more into what Fountain's doing because they're from the podcasting 2.0 side that they're

359
00:30:36,645 --> 00:30:41,165
kind of leading the lightning stuff already and the Nostra stuff

360
00:30:41,165 --> 00:30:52,845
but but podcasting 2.0 is also not Nostra not Bitcoin it's like it's podcasting in general so

361
00:30:52,845 --> 00:30:56,925
it's like this huge, it's this huge environment

362
00:30:56,925 --> 00:31:01,445
and we're in this very small corner.

363
00:31:03,065 --> 00:31:06,285
Actually, let's talk about that, Chad,

364
00:31:06,345 --> 00:31:08,625
because a lot of people, when you say podcasting 2.0,

365
00:31:08,705 --> 00:31:21,498
all they think is boosts and lightning right Whereas the change from the old podcast presumably 1 to 2 was far I mean Lightning was one key thing there

366
00:31:21,538 --> 00:31:22,858
but it wasn't the only thing, correct?

367
00:31:24,418 --> 00:31:25,138
That's right.

368
00:31:27,358 --> 00:31:29,218
Okay, so some of the other stuff we added,

369
00:31:31,358 --> 00:31:37,418
like transcripts now are like a standard,

370
00:31:37,418 --> 00:31:49,038
And actually, Apple Podcasts actually has adopted the podcasting 2.0 transcript spec.

371
00:31:49,838 --> 00:31:53,498
So that was kind of a win for us.

372
00:31:54,398 --> 00:32:00,758
So we have transcripts, chapters, which – yeah, your show has chapters.

373
00:32:01,378 --> 00:32:04,278
So that's actually a podcasting 2.0 feature.

374
00:32:04,278 --> 00:32:13,418
like the boost is a feature um oh gosh there's all kinds of there's a bunch of real nerdy stuff

375
00:32:13,418 --> 00:32:21,058
um one thing that's actually cool it's kind of new is something called alternate enclosure

376
00:32:21,058 --> 00:32:30,218
that lets you put a audio and video file in your feed and you can actually switch between them

377
00:32:30,218 --> 00:32:31,238
while you're watching.

378
00:32:31,498 --> 00:32:34,618
So say if you're listening on your phone while you're out,

379
00:32:35,378 --> 00:32:36,938
you listen to the audio, then you get home,

380
00:32:37,018 --> 00:32:41,718
you can switch it back to video, which is kind of cool.

381
00:32:41,918 --> 00:32:45,138
But there's just like a lot of, I mean,

382
00:32:45,218 --> 00:32:49,498
there's just tons of features that the lightning stuff

383
00:32:49,498 --> 00:32:53,418
is just one of those features, kind of.

384
00:32:54,518 --> 00:32:57,158
And how does a change like that happen, right?

385
00:32:57,158 --> 00:32:59,358
So what we're really talking about here is,

386
00:32:59,358 --> 00:33:02,498
when RSS began it was an XML feed

387
00:33:02,498 --> 00:33:05,478
and it had certain elements inside that XML file

388
00:33:05,478 --> 00:33:07,418
because it was an open protocol

389
00:33:07,418 --> 00:33:10,138
it had to be adopted by anyone who

390
00:33:10,138 --> 00:33:12,418
I mean let's just talk about podcasts for now

391
00:33:12,418 --> 00:33:17,558
I remember 20 years back

392
00:33:17,558 --> 00:33:19,918
or maybe even 25 years back

393
00:33:19,918 --> 00:33:22,598
around the time I got introduced to RSS

394
00:33:22,598 --> 00:33:24,418
I was using it to get news

395
00:33:24,418 --> 00:33:28,578
a lot of the news channels would publish news as RSS feeds

396
00:33:28,578 --> 00:33:29,878
and they deprecated that.

397
00:33:31,218 --> 00:33:33,758
But yes, there's an XML file

398
00:33:33,758 --> 00:33:36,918
and all of these different venues have to agree that,

399
00:33:37,078 --> 00:33:40,818
okay, yes, we accept all of these elements in that XML file

400
00:33:40,818 --> 00:33:43,598
so that developers can then build different features

401
00:33:43,598 --> 00:33:44,578
on top of that, right?

402
00:33:45,098 --> 00:33:47,178
And I'm phrasing this simplistically

403
00:33:47,178 --> 00:33:48,738
for a non-technical audience.

404
00:33:50,038 --> 00:33:53,378
Now, for this upgrade from the old podcast

405
00:33:53,378 --> 00:33:54,658
into podcasting 2.0,

406
00:33:54,818 --> 00:33:57,698
what you're saying is this text file, essentially, right,

407
00:33:57,698 --> 00:34:01,418
this XML file that gets passed around with all this information.

408
00:34:01,678 --> 00:34:05,838
We want to add, the upgrade says we want to add these other elements,

409
00:34:05,958 --> 00:34:11,218
such as the lightning boost, such as chapters and transcripts

410
00:34:11,218 --> 00:34:17,178
and this alternative switching between audio and video tag and so on, right?

411
00:34:17,258 --> 00:34:18,638
So someone proposes that.

412
00:34:18,898 --> 00:34:20,418
How does that process work?

413
00:34:20,418 --> 00:34:25,058
Like how do all of these different venues that accept or integrate RSS say,

414
00:34:25,138 --> 00:34:27,638
okay, fine, we accept your changes?

415
00:34:27,698 --> 00:34:42,898
All right, so there's actually a podcasting 2.0 namespace is what it's called, which that's basically just a list of all the podcasting 2.0 features.

416
00:34:42,898 --> 00:34:52,278
so when you make it's made still the same rss feed but you just kind of at the top you just

417
00:34:52,278 --> 00:35:01,378
you just add the bit that says hey this is also a podcasting 2.0 feed and then it's a lot like

418
00:35:01,378 --> 00:35:09,558
nostr it's just it's a bunch of tags and you can actually if you ever get bored and you can actually

419
00:35:09,558 --> 00:35:15,718
opened an RSS feed and I mean it's all human readable so like you'll go down through and you

420
00:35:15,718 --> 00:35:23,078
can see like you'll see like a value tag and that has all the lightning information you'll see like

421
00:35:23,078 --> 00:35:32,538
a chapters tag that has the chapter info the transcripts and all the 2.0 features are just

422
00:35:32,538 --> 00:35:41,578
in the feed and if an app wants to so like an app pulls in that feed and the feed just says hey this

423
00:35:41,578 --> 00:35:51,478
is the this is like the info i have and if your app supports them here's how you here's how you

424
00:35:51,478 --> 00:35:55,998
get that info basically like if you're going to add the lightning stuff here's the lightning

425
00:35:55,998 --> 00:36:05,098
addresses you send to and the percentages and and everything and over time like anyone can

426
00:36:05,098 --> 00:36:14,378
suggest a new feature and this is kind of where the Noster and podcasting 2.0 thing differ

427
00:36:14,378 --> 00:36:20,318
or Noster it almost seems like a wild west like anyone can like propose like a new nip

428
00:36:20,318 --> 00:36:25,958
or whatever and say hey I'm doing this and then someone else is doing something similar and

429
00:36:25,958 --> 00:36:32,218
then you realize you've got like four or five different ways of doing the same thing where with

430
00:36:32,218 --> 00:36:40,658
podcasting 2.0 um we just kind of roll out these updates in like phases and that's kind of slowed

431
00:36:40,658 --> 00:36:46,778
down because we've accomplished a lot of stuff so basically like people just suggest stuff and then

432
00:36:46,778 --> 00:36:53,458
like someone's like hey i'll put that in my rss feed and then one of the apps will say hey i'll

433
00:36:53,458 --> 00:36:56,318
try working on that and then

434
00:36:56,318 --> 00:36:59,558
like once we get

435
00:36:59,558 --> 00:37:02,358
I forget the exact number but I think it's like

436
00:37:02,358 --> 00:37:03,218
if you get one

437
00:37:03,218 --> 00:37:06,758
like if you get a podcaster and an app

438
00:37:06,758 --> 00:37:08,798
kind of both working on the feature

439
00:37:08,798 --> 00:37:11,138
and they get it flushed out then it kind of

440
00:37:11,138 --> 00:37:14,298
moves up to the greater

441
00:37:14,298 --> 00:37:17,858
the greater like podcasting

442
00:37:17,858 --> 00:37:20,338
2.0 community

443
00:37:20,338 --> 00:37:22,998
then it gets like submitted to maybe actually

444
00:37:22,998 --> 00:37:33,698
it in like the official standard so it kind of and like it's all open so it's like anyone can like

445
00:37:33,698 --> 00:37:36,798
submit stuff and it moves up and then

446
00:37:36,798 --> 00:37:48,498
i mean adam curry and dave jones kind of they run the index and they they kind of have final say

447
00:37:48,498 --> 00:37:50,758
but I don't really want to...

448
00:37:50,758 --> 00:37:51,918
Yeah, they kind of do.

449
00:37:52,018 --> 00:37:53,038
I mean, it's their project.

450
00:37:53,178 --> 00:37:53,858
They started it.

451
00:37:55,418 --> 00:37:55,898
They...

452
00:37:55,898 --> 00:37:58,638
They're the Fiat Jeff of RSS.

453
00:37:59,138 --> 00:37:59,458
Yeah.

454
00:37:59,558 --> 00:38:00,138
In some sense.

455
00:38:00,398 --> 00:38:00,958
Yeah, that's...

456
00:38:00,958 --> 00:38:01,118
Yeah.

457
00:38:01,478 --> 00:38:02,418
And then...

458
00:38:02,418 --> 00:38:04,498
Yeah, so it's just kind of...

459
00:38:05,218 --> 00:38:06,418
Yeah, so there's like a...

460
00:38:06,418 --> 00:38:08,158
There is a hierarchy to it,

461
00:38:08,598 --> 00:38:11,638
but that's also how you get all this stuff,

462
00:38:12,958 --> 00:38:15,378
how you actually get to like a spec

463
00:38:15,378 --> 00:38:19,838
so that everyone actually agrees on it.

464
00:38:20,878 --> 00:38:25,798
But in theory, Chad, yes, it would be nice if it got everyone's blessing

465
00:38:25,798 --> 00:38:32,218
and it ended up in the whatever registry or repository that these changes sit in.

466
00:38:32,218 --> 00:38:37,338
In theory, because it's an open protocol, you could just add a new tag.

467
00:38:38,158 --> 00:38:40,378
And as long as an application developer says,

468
00:38:40,458 --> 00:38:43,938
yep, I like that tag, I'm going to build an integration for that,

469
00:38:43,938 --> 00:38:46,218
it's going to work, right?

470
00:38:46,678 --> 00:38:48,978
I mean, I'm just thinking in terms of Nostra.

471
00:38:49,318 --> 00:38:50,438
I can write a NIP.

472
00:38:50,878 --> 00:38:52,098
FiatJav doesn't need to merge it.

473
00:38:52,158 --> 00:38:54,118
I can post the NIP to Nostra Hub now,

474
00:38:54,538 --> 00:38:57,098
NostraHub.io, right, as a custom NIP.

475
00:38:57,338 --> 00:38:59,578
And all I need is one client developer to say,

476
00:38:59,658 --> 00:39:00,498
hey, I like that NIP.

477
00:39:00,578 --> 00:39:03,718
I'm going to build a client that accepts the event kind

478
00:39:03,718 --> 00:39:05,518
and all of that stuff in the NIP.

479
00:39:05,518 --> 00:39:08,638
And then I'm cooking already at that point.

480
00:39:10,098 --> 00:39:11,498
Yeah, and that's, I mean,

481
00:39:11,498 --> 00:39:15,938
And that's the same way the podcasting stuff works.

482
00:39:16,698 --> 00:39:30,838
But since it's an official standard, I guess if enough people like your idea, then it just kind of moves up the chain.

483
00:39:30,838 --> 00:39:38,458
And not everyone has to agree, but if we get enough, it just goes in the list of features.

484
00:39:38,458 --> 00:39:42,718
It's kind of like if you go to, like you mentioned, Nosterhub.io,

485
00:39:42,858 --> 00:39:44,798
you go in there, you see all the NIPs listed,

486
00:39:45,378 --> 00:39:49,998
and their site's just like that for podcasting 2.0 spec.

487
00:39:50,158 --> 00:39:52,458
You go on there, and it's like, hey, here's a list of,

488
00:39:52,458 --> 00:39:59,618
of like the official specs, and here's how you implement them.

489
00:40:01,458 --> 00:40:03,918
And like, like you can add anything.

490
00:40:03,918 --> 00:40:07,978
Like I've got feeds that I've made that have stuff in it that doesn't,

491
00:40:07,978 --> 00:40:13,398
like you can put anything in it you want like you could i mean you can make your own app

492
00:40:13,398 --> 00:40:19,978
and you can make your own feed you can put it i mean you can put it in whatever you want so it's

493
00:40:19,978 --> 00:40:25,938
like it's it's more of like getting the consensus and just getting it like basically just getting

494
00:40:25,938 --> 00:40:32,838
the official stamp on it so and i know we i know like a lot of people like to say the podcast

495
00:40:32,838 --> 00:40:37,718
indexes centralized, which it kind of is.

496
00:40:37,858 --> 00:40:40,798
And we've kind of talked about that over the years.

497
00:40:40,838 --> 00:40:49,358
And I think we're working on spreading it out some, but it being kind of centralized

498
00:40:49,358 --> 00:40:53,978
also makes it robust and kind of sturdy.

499
00:40:55,598 --> 00:40:57,958
So let's talk about that for a second, Chad.

500
00:40:57,958 --> 00:41:08,858
For folks unfamiliar, Podcast Index is really this collection of all the RSS feeds out there, whether it's music or podcasts.

501
00:41:09,058 --> 00:41:13,578
And this is started by Adam Curry and his – I can't remember his partner's name.

502
00:41:14,198 --> 00:41:23,998
It's their website where all they do is they – it's a collection of anyone has an RSS feed, it somehow shows up on Podcast Index.

503
00:41:24,138 --> 00:41:24,738
Is that correct?

504
00:41:25,538 --> 00:41:25,978
Yeah.

505
00:41:26,138 --> 00:41:26,998
And there's actually a button.

506
00:41:26,998 --> 00:41:29,318
you can add your own feed

507
00:41:29,318 --> 00:41:31,878
to the index right on the homepage.

508
00:41:33,958 --> 00:41:34,578
So what,

509
00:41:35,118 --> 00:41:36,398
apart from the fact

510
00:41:36,398 --> 00:41:37,418
that it's just one person

511
00:41:37,418 --> 00:41:38,678
who runs the website,

512
00:41:39,758 --> 00:41:39,938
it's,

513
00:41:39,971 --> 00:41:42,391
That's what you mean by centralization, right?

514
00:41:42,451 --> 00:41:47,811
As opposed to – so in theory that – I mean we're not saying Adam Curry is going to do that.

515
00:41:47,931 --> 00:41:49,771
But he could because it's one person.

516
00:41:49,951 --> 00:41:52,531
If he doesn't like an RSS feed, he could block it.

517
00:41:53,011 --> 00:41:54,031
Is that the concern?

518
00:41:55,371 --> 00:41:55,651
Yeah.

519
00:41:55,891 --> 00:41:58,851
Well, it's – I don't know if it's so much that.

520
00:41:58,851 --> 00:42:04,091
It's just that there's like Dave Jones.

521
00:42:04,231 --> 00:42:07,231
That's kind of the systems administrator.

522
00:42:08,071 --> 00:42:13,631
Like if something were to happen to him, it would be a big issue because he's like the guy running.

523
00:42:14,671 --> 00:42:16,291
He's the guy keeping everything alive.

524
00:42:16,391 --> 00:42:19,831
Because, I mean, it's a database, but like it's also it's run on servers.

525
00:42:21,451 --> 00:42:23,971
And like these feeds also get.

526
00:42:23,971 --> 00:42:27,171
I mean you put a new show out

527
00:42:27,171 --> 00:42:28,271
the feed has to get

528
00:42:28,271 --> 00:42:29,951
checked again

529
00:42:29,951 --> 00:42:33,071
so that the updates get added to the

530
00:42:33,071 --> 00:42:34,111
index because the

531
00:42:34,111 --> 00:42:36,511
like the index is just like the

532
00:42:36,511 --> 00:42:38,651
you know it's like the library

533
00:42:38,651 --> 00:42:41,171
of it so like the index

534
00:42:41,171 --> 00:42:43,151
knows what the latest episode is and all

535
00:42:43,151 --> 00:42:45,271
that stuff so it's not just

536
00:42:45,271 --> 00:42:45,851
like a

537
00:42:45,851 --> 00:42:49,031
static website and there's a lot of

538
00:42:49,031 --> 00:42:50,891
infrastructure

539
00:42:50,891 --> 00:42:52,271
under it

540
00:42:52,271 --> 00:42:57,571
that needs run and updated.

541
00:42:58,311 --> 00:43:00,531
But if that were to, I mean, you can also,

542
00:43:00,711 --> 00:43:04,391
I mean, you can download the podcast index database.

543
00:43:04,391 --> 00:43:06,611
It's like 300 gigabytes or something.

544
00:43:07,151 --> 00:43:12,351
So we're kind of working on like making more copies of it spread out.

545
00:43:12,351 --> 00:43:17,311
But like you also need, like it needs a maintainer or it'll just,

546
00:43:17,311 --> 00:43:20,191
it'll just turn into

547
00:43:20,191 --> 00:43:22,431
it'll just turn into nothing

548
00:43:22,431 --> 00:43:25,071
and it'll be useless in a way

549
00:43:25,071 --> 00:43:25,391
but

550
00:43:25,391 --> 00:43:29,171
so here let me ask you this Chad

551
00:43:29,171 --> 00:43:31,271
because I've been digging into podcast index

552
00:43:31,271 --> 00:43:33,491
as early phase research for this

553
00:43:33,491 --> 00:43:35,551
web of trust curation app

554
00:43:35,551 --> 00:43:36,431
that I

555
00:43:36,431 --> 00:43:38,931
want to build through Nosfabrica

556
00:43:38,931 --> 00:43:41,131
one of the things I noticed

557
00:43:41,131 --> 00:43:43,091
in the RSS feeds is the

558
00:43:43,091 --> 00:43:44,691
actual mp3 or

559
00:43:44,691 --> 00:43:46,951
audio file link right whether it's for

560
00:43:46,951 --> 00:43:48,871
podcasts or for songs.

561
00:43:49,231 --> 00:43:51,711
Now, it's one...

562
00:43:51,711 --> 00:43:53,131
Let's take a song, right?

563
00:43:54,151 --> 00:43:56,291
I think one of the tags is medium.

564
00:43:56,631 --> 00:43:57,971
So if it's medium music,

565
00:43:58,931 --> 00:44:00,911
assuming it's categorized correctly,

566
00:44:01,191 --> 00:44:02,571
it's likely to be a song.

567
00:44:02,671 --> 00:44:03,911
Let's say the format is mp3.

568
00:44:05,331 --> 00:44:07,391
When I look at the feed, it points to...

569
00:44:07,391 --> 00:44:08,791
And I can download the mp3, right?

570
00:44:08,871 --> 00:44:10,991
But it's typically some AWS,

571
00:44:11,391 --> 00:44:13,191
sitting on some AWS server somewhere.

572
00:44:14,711 --> 00:44:16,431
Sometimes it's actually specific.

573
00:44:16,431 --> 00:44:17,811
it says it's on RSS Blue.

574
00:44:17,931 --> 00:44:19,971
At other times, it's hard to tell where it is,

575
00:44:20,311 --> 00:44:22,211
at least from what I've seen.

576
00:44:22,711 --> 00:44:25,731
That is a centralization risk in and of itself, isn't it?

577
00:44:26,371 --> 00:44:29,011
Because what the RSS feed is pointing to

578
00:44:29,011 --> 00:44:31,331
is just one copy of this audio file

579
00:44:31,331 --> 00:44:33,591
sitting on some centralized server somewhere.

580
00:44:35,271 --> 00:44:38,491
Yeah, but you have to...

581
00:44:38,491 --> 00:44:40,771
Yeah, I mean, and that's up to the podcaster,

582
00:44:41,571 --> 00:44:45,731
to the side where they want to keep their feed

583
00:44:45,731 --> 00:44:48,511
and a lot of the, like if you look at one

584
00:44:48,511 --> 00:44:55,531
and it looks like some random link or whatever,

585
00:44:55,651 --> 00:44:57,331
I mean, it could be someone just self-hosting.

586
00:44:57,671 --> 00:44:58,891
I mean, like if you have a website,

587
00:44:59,071 --> 00:45:03,771
you can just park your feed on your own website.

588
00:45:04,391 --> 00:45:08,911
But you mentioned where the files are hosted.

589
00:45:08,911 --> 00:45:13,771
You can actually, like nothing's stopping anyone

590
00:45:13,771 --> 00:45:17,131
from hosting their media file

591
00:45:17,131 --> 00:45:21,011
or even their cover art or whatever

592
00:45:21,011 --> 00:45:22,851
on something like Blossom

593
00:45:22,851 --> 00:45:26,671
and then just putting that in an RSS feed.

594
00:45:28,171 --> 00:45:33,271
And that's actually what caster.me

595
00:45:33,271 --> 00:45:37,671
that Gigi made actually does this.

596
00:45:38,251 --> 00:45:41,371
So if you take someone's end pub,

597
00:45:41,371 --> 00:45:43,131
you put it in that site,

598
00:45:43,771 --> 00:45:48,151
It builds a podcasting 2.0 RSS feed,

599
00:45:48,411 --> 00:45:51,851
and then you put that RSS feed in any podcasting app,

600
00:45:52,271 --> 00:45:54,351
and it works.

601
00:45:55,051 --> 00:45:58,191
But the stuff is, the files are hosted on Noster,

602
00:45:59,311 --> 00:46:03,471
and then the feed's just used to kind of distribute it

603
00:46:03,471 --> 00:46:06,391
and let the apps know where the stuff's at.

604
00:46:07,291 --> 00:46:08,191
Oh, interesting.

605
00:46:08,411 --> 00:46:10,311
So you put your NPUB in,

606
00:46:10,991 --> 00:46:12,451
and it'll look up your metadata

607
00:46:12,451 --> 00:46:15,331
if you have some Blossom servers associated with your endpub,

608
00:46:15,411 --> 00:46:18,951
whatever files they are, they show up in that RSS feed.

609
00:46:20,651 --> 00:46:22,711
Yeah, there's a...

610
00:46:22,711 --> 00:46:24,451
Yeah, so it's...

611
00:46:25,171 --> 00:46:29,731
Yeah, I think it just pulls in, like, MP4s and MP3s.

612
00:46:29,771 --> 00:46:31,291
I forget. I have to look at it.

613
00:46:32,031 --> 00:46:34,791
But, yeah, I've actually helped GG with it a little bit.

614
00:46:35,291 --> 00:46:37,451
So, like, you can...

615
00:46:37,451 --> 00:46:41,511
I mean, you can just host this stuff on Noster

616
00:46:41,511 --> 00:46:45,391
and just put those links in a feed.

617
00:46:46,171 --> 00:46:48,011
And that's actually something we've talked about before,

618
00:46:48,871 --> 00:46:55,771
but it always comes up that it seems that Noster doesn't work well

619
00:46:55,771 --> 00:47:00,231
if you would change something in the feed

620
00:47:00,231 --> 00:47:03,371
because you're going to have to change it

621
00:47:03,371 --> 00:47:04,611
because you're going to mess something up.

622
00:47:05,071 --> 00:47:06,491
It's just inevitable.

623
00:47:07,431 --> 00:47:10,071
And with Blossom, which I don't know a ton about,

624
00:47:10,071 --> 00:47:12,031
but I think I know enough.

625
00:47:12,231 --> 00:47:20,091
But it hashes the file, and then you have a hash of that file.

626
00:47:20,411 --> 00:47:25,791
But if you need to change that file, then that hash changes,

627
00:47:26,271 --> 00:47:27,231
which then like it.

628
00:47:27,651 --> 00:47:30,431
But I mean, that's all like down the road stuff.

629
00:47:30,791 --> 00:47:35,791
But you, like caster.me is kind of fun to play around with,

630
00:47:35,951 --> 00:47:38,431
and it'll pull in people's stuff.

631
00:47:38,431 --> 00:47:42,891
and there's a, I think it's, I forget the exact name.

632
00:47:42,951 --> 00:47:47,071
I think it's Movie Archive is a Nostra profile

633
00:47:47,071 --> 00:47:48,911
that works really well with this,

634
00:47:49,051 --> 00:47:55,311
that it has archive.org hosted media and stuff.

635
00:47:55,391 --> 00:47:58,371
So if you put that feed in a podcast app,

636
00:47:58,551 --> 00:48:01,211
it pulls in all the movies and stuff it posts.

637
00:48:01,991 --> 00:48:03,391
So like a musician could do that.

638
00:48:03,471 --> 00:48:06,151
Like you could make an end pub for your band

639
00:48:06,151 --> 00:48:08,171
and just post your music.

640
00:48:08,431 --> 00:48:10,211
to Nostra and then that could pull it in.

641
00:48:11,991 --> 00:48:13,851
That's kind of like one of the examples of something

642
00:48:13,851 --> 00:48:17,331
that's actually kind of blending the two worlds together

643
00:48:17,331 --> 00:48:22,171
because Gigi has been in the podcasting 2.0 space

644
00:48:22,171 --> 00:48:23,751
since about the beginning.

645
00:48:25,171 --> 00:48:27,571
So he's kind of someone to keep an eye on.

646
00:48:28,431 --> 00:48:31,151
Is this the Gigi, Bitcoin is time, Gigi?

647
00:48:31,711 --> 00:48:32,831
I had no idea.

648
00:48:33,531 --> 00:48:34,331
Yeah, the Gigi.

649
00:48:34,331 --> 00:48:37,311
yeah so he's

650
00:48:37,311 --> 00:48:38,451
he's been

651
00:48:38,451 --> 00:48:41,691
yeah he's helped a lot of this stuff

652
00:48:41,691 --> 00:48:43,431
over the years too

653
00:48:43,431 --> 00:48:44,691
so he's a good one to

654
00:48:44,691 --> 00:48:47,631
he's like a good example

655
00:48:47,631 --> 00:48:48,691
of someone who kind of

656
00:48:48,691 --> 00:48:51,851
understands the Noster and the Bitcoin

657
00:48:51,851 --> 00:48:53,691
and the RSS

658
00:48:53,691 --> 00:48:54,731
side of things

659
00:48:54,731 --> 00:48:57,611
but it's

660
00:48:57,611 --> 00:48:58,771
I don't know

661
00:48:58,771 --> 00:49:01,151
it gets real muddy

662
00:49:01,151 --> 00:49:02,531
it gets real technical

663
00:49:02,531 --> 00:49:05,571
and that kind of turns people away.

664
00:49:05,931 --> 00:49:10,391
But we're also very early in all of this.

665
00:49:10,391 --> 00:49:14,411
So the technical discussions need to happen

666
00:49:14,411 --> 00:49:17,471
because that's how you get stuff to work together.

667
00:49:18,991 --> 00:49:24,131
I think this is a fundamental marketing problem

668
00:49:24,131 --> 00:49:28,551
that folks in Bitcoin and Noster face,

669
00:49:28,551 --> 00:49:34,131
which is, you know, right now I still feel we're in the early adopter phase,

670
00:49:34,431 --> 00:49:36,831
certainly for NOSTA but also for Bitcoin, right?

671
00:49:37,211 --> 00:49:41,111
And it's mostly these incredibly passionate people

672
00:49:41,111 --> 00:49:46,191
whose world revolves around Bitcoin and NOSTA

673
00:49:46,191 --> 00:49:48,531
and they think that anyone they explain this to

674
00:49:48,531 --> 00:49:53,831
needs to understand the tech at the level that they do, right?

675
00:49:53,911 --> 00:49:57,431
So most of Bitcoin and NOSTA evangelism that you see

676
00:49:57,431 --> 00:50:03,831
is people talking deeply about the different elements of the tech and so on.

677
00:50:04,031 --> 00:50:07,111
And the average person, they're out at that point, right,

678
00:50:07,191 --> 00:50:11,051
within less than 30 seconds of a conversation like that.

679
00:50:12,191 --> 00:50:15,451
And I think, and I'm just responding to what you said, right, Chad,

680
00:50:15,531 --> 00:50:18,411
which is these conversations are very technical.

681
00:50:18,411 --> 00:50:26,791
And I think we have to learn, for folks who are trying to push these free,

682
00:50:26,791 --> 00:50:28,671
Essentially, let's just call it freedom tech, right?

683
00:50:29,471 --> 00:50:30,411
Push freedom tech forward.

684
00:50:30,511 --> 00:50:32,151
We have to learn how to segment our audience.

685
00:50:32,271 --> 00:50:35,051
If you're talking to developers, by all means, knock yourselves out.

686
00:50:35,171 --> 00:50:38,851
Talk at whatever technical level you want to.

687
00:50:38,911 --> 00:50:44,171
But if you're trying to sell this idea to the average user, you have to sell them an experience.

688
00:50:44,491 --> 00:50:45,551
You have to talk.

689
00:50:45,731 --> 00:50:47,031
It has to be something emotional.

690
00:50:47,031 --> 00:50:52,771
Like your life is lacking this, and now your life is going to improve by using this, right?

691
00:50:52,791 --> 00:50:55,051
This is the experience that we're going to create for you.

692
00:50:55,051 --> 00:51:00,311
It should never be about the tech because they will run away if it is.

693
00:51:01,951 --> 00:51:09,351
Yeah, but we need to build the tech out more so we can make it easier.

694
00:51:09,791 --> 00:51:17,731
And one of the problems with making stuff too easy is that that tends to centralize stuff.

695
00:51:18,931 --> 00:51:24,511
Because if you get some company coming along saying, hey, we'll do this for you.

696
00:51:25,051 --> 00:51:30,031
and then they go belly up, you're kind of stuck.

697
00:51:30,471 --> 00:51:34,491
So yeah, it's hard to explain,

698
00:51:36,031 --> 00:51:37,111
which is why I don't really,

699
00:51:37,831 --> 00:51:39,811
which is why I stick to more of the

700
00:51:39,811 --> 00:51:42,111
let's see what we can piece together side.

701
00:51:44,031 --> 00:51:49,251
You know, there's Open Mike in the live chat on Zapstream,

702
00:51:49,951 --> 00:51:52,031
and he's making the point that

703
00:51:52,031 --> 00:51:53,951
for this to actually hit for the musicians,

704
00:51:53,951 --> 00:51:56,611
and to be even remotely mainstream,

705
00:51:56,771 --> 00:52:10,117
it has to be painfully simple to join and not technical They have to be able to tell their fans to come here And we had you know through Mike we had Just Loud and Ainsley right before their Minneapolis show

706
00:52:10,977 --> 00:52:12,777
Gosh, that was two years ago now.

707
00:52:12,877 --> 00:52:13,497
Hard to believe.

708
00:52:13,657 --> 00:52:15,877
But it was December 23, 2023.

709
00:52:18,177 --> 00:52:26,117
And, you know, Just Loud was being incredibly polite during one of the segments during that podcast.

710
00:52:26,117 --> 00:52:30,937
But in a very polite way, he said to me, look, I don't care about this stuff.

711
00:52:30,997 --> 00:52:32,077
I don't care about Bitcoin.

712
00:52:32,537 --> 00:52:36,517
I'm just doing this, you know, because I don't like Spotify.

713
00:52:36,517 --> 00:52:37,897
I don't like how they're treating me.

714
00:52:38,157 --> 00:52:39,977
I've been told that this is a better way.

715
00:52:40,077 --> 00:52:40,917
So I'm doing it.

716
00:52:41,177 --> 00:52:43,377
You guys are talking about sats and this and that.

717
00:52:43,697 --> 00:52:44,957
This stuff doesn't interest me.

718
00:52:45,797 --> 00:52:50,337
And he was completely charming about how he said it.

719
00:52:50,337 --> 00:53:00,557
But it was obvious to me back then that musicians, why would they care about the difference between Keysand and LNURL and this and that?

720
00:53:00,837 --> 00:53:02,537
None of that stuff matters to them.

721
00:53:02,657 --> 00:53:04,437
It's how are we changing their lives?

722
00:53:06,677 --> 00:53:06,917
Yeah.

723
00:53:07,417 --> 00:53:18,317
And I see a lot of that too, that people aren't – like the musicians aren't too worried about the Bitcoin side of it and stuff.

724
00:53:18,317 --> 00:53:29,037
But that also needs – that's kind of one of the things I've been kind of harping on lately is that there's really no –

725
00:53:29,037 --> 00:53:40,197
like there's really no Nostra music besides people just kind of like making a post of maybe them playing or it's like a Spotify link or something.

726
00:53:40,197 --> 00:53:49,237
And I think if that stuff was more native to Noster,

727
00:53:49,937 --> 00:53:51,617
it would be easier to find.

728
00:53:53,477 --> 00:53:59,777
Because finding the music and getting it out there

729
00:53:59,777 --> 00:54:05,497
is how you get the artist excited.

730
00:54:05,917 --> 00:54:06,977
Because I've seen that happen.

731
00:54:06,977 --> 00:54:10,537
and then hopefully they stick around.

732
00:54:11,717 --> 00:54:17,277
And I hope maybe bridging more of the RSS side

733
00:54:17,277 --> 00:54:20,237
because that's like structured data.

734
00:54:21,257 --> 00:54:24,977
So you don't have to...

735
00:54:24,977 --> 00:54:27,977
Like if a musician on Noster posts...

736
00:54:29,277 --> 00:54:33,077
Like Suzanne Santo is a good example.

737
00:54:33,297 --> 00:54:35,857
Like she'll post a video like updating people,

738
00:54:35,857 --> 00:54:40,957
but it's kind of hard to see that video if you don't see it on your timeline

739
00:54:40,957 --> 00:54:44,617
because say she posted it a week ago and you're a big fan of her

740
00:54:44,617 --> 00:54:45,597
and you want to see it.

741
00:54:46,837 --> 00:54:52,617
But it might be gone, but where RSS is like it's structured

742
00:54:52,617 --> 00:54:57,417
so you can go back at any time and find her stuff.

743
00:54:57,417 --> 00:55:04,257
And I think that's kind of like where some of the Web of Trust talk comes into

744
00:55:04,257 --> 00:55:14,417
where you can have this structured format of all of your content,

745
00:55:14,597 --> 00:55:20,357
but then use Nostr to make it easier to find, I guess.

746
00:55:22,617 --> 00:55:26,277
And I think, so you said there's no, I'm paraphrasing,

747
00:55:26,437 --> 00:55:27,777
you said, where is the Nostr music?

748
00:55:29,017 --> 00:55:33,717
And to me, it's like, well, does there need to be a thing called Nostr music?

749
00:55:33,717 --> 00:55:37,997
I mean, there's independent music that's out there already, right?

750
00:55:38,137 --> 00:55:40,757
And Podcast Index and there are all these other sources.

751
00:55:42,617 --> 00:55:48,637
And I think Fountain picks up just anything with an RSS feed, I think, is picked up by Fountain Music.

752
00:55:48,857 --> 00:55:49,657
I could be wrong.

753
00:55:50,177 --> 00:55:51,317
Oscar, don't yell at me.

754
00:55:53,557 --> 00:55:55,657
So to me, that's Nostra Music, right?

755
00:55:55,757 --> 00:55:58,417
All Fountain now needs is a discovery layer.

756
00:55:59,197 --> 00:56:01,257
It's got the Nostra baked in for social.

757
00:56:01,257 --> 00:56:04,537
It's got the distribution problem solved because it's picking up RSS.

758
00:56:04,917 --> 00:56:12,137
There's a thin web of trust layer that's missing which just says, look, this is – so you log in with your endpub.

759
00:56:12,537 --> 00:56:15,077
You're all of my – within my web.

760
00:56:15,337 --> 00:56:17,997
And you can make it really interesting here, right?

761
00:56:18,017 --> 00:56:25,737
You can keep it super broad and say, as long as my friends are listening to it, meaning the people I'm following are Nostra, show it to me.

762
00:56:25,737 --> 00:56:33,857
If they've interacted with it in a positive way, whether it's through a boost or a like or a positive comment, put it up on my feed and say, hey, do you want to listen to this?

763
00:56:33,877 --> 00:56:34,517
Your friends are listening.

764
00:56:35,017 --> 00:56:37,177
That's like the broad brush web of trust.

765
00:56:37,537 --> 00:56:39,917
You can make it even contextual, right?

766
00:56:39,937 --> 00:56:45,357
And I think we went back and forth on a thread on Nost a week or so ago when I was talking about this.

767
00:56:45,457 --> 00:56:51,757
And I decided to stop talking about it because the issue with using technical terms is the conversation just dies.

768
00:56:51,757 --> 00:56:57,197
I'm not saying you, you, with you, Chad, but there were others who jumped in and said, what do you mean contextual this?

769
00:56:57,357 --> 00:57:00,097
So I said, you know what, I'm just going to talk in terms of experiences.

770
00:57:00,377 --> 00:57:01,577
You'll find the music you love.

771
00:57:01,837 --> 00:57:13,137
But what I mean by contextual is there's so there's a broad web of trust, which is the people you follow presumably means, you know, they will have some kind of impact on you.

772
00:57:13,137 --> 00:57:26,277
But if you're trying to mimic human interactions, right, even within your friend circle, there'll be one group of friends whose music tastes you trust and another group whose food tastes you trust, right?

773
00:57:26,377 --> 00:57:29,637
And these groups might not overlap entirely.

774
00:57:29,917 --> 00:57:31,817
So that's the context, music, food.

775
00:57:31,977 --> 00:57:39,977
So you can have a subset of your following whose musical tastes you trust and only that gets recommended to you.

776
00:57:39,997 --> 00:57:41,617
And it's not just going to be them, right?

777
00:57:41,617 --> 00:57:48,197
And then their contextual webs are on top of that.

778
00:57:48,437 --> 00:57:50,977
And you can go like three or four levels deep.

779
00:57:51,377 --> 00:57:55,217
That's how the tentacles spread in a targeted way.

780
00:57:55,777 --> 00:58:02,637
And you can surface up music or podcasts that you otherwise wouldn't have heard of,

781
00:58:02,797 --> 00:58:07,017
which you might actually like because it's through a targeted trust layer.

782
00:58:07,017 --> 00:58:20,477
yeah and i agree with that and i think that's it's interesting that you say that if you go to fountain

783
00:58:20,477 --> 00:58:28,257
and find music there and since they have nostr you consider that nostr music

784
00:58:28,257 --> 00:58:32,957
but that music is on an RSS feed

785
00:58:32,957 --> 00:58:38,337
and if Fountain wasn't a podcast app at its core,

786
00:58:38,937 --> 00:58:40,757
you wouldn't see that music,

787
00:58:41,157 --> 00:58:45,957
which is why these Noster music apps I've seen

788
00:58:45,957 --> 00:58:47,877
popped up over the past week or so,

789
00:58:47,957 --> 00:58:48,997
which are really cool to see.

790
00:58:49,657 --> 00:58:52,817
That's why they don't have that same library

791
00:58:52,817 --> 00:58:55,077
because it's...

792
00:58:55,077 --> 00:58:56,757
And this is another issue too.

793
00:58:56,757 --> 00:59:06,677
like people like fountain is a podcast app at its core it's rss it has nostre to it but

794
00:59:06,677 --> 00:59:12,837
like i get we're all excited about nostre so we see nostre fountain we think everything in fountain

795
00:59:12,837 --> 00:59:24,377
is nostre but it's just the social yes layer all that content is rss based so and what's nice about

796
00:59:24,377 --> 00:59:28,477
that is anything you find in fountain like all the fountain music or podcasts or whatever

797
00:59:28,477 --> 00:59:36,897
anyone can build an app to do that same thing like we need more fountains we need more wave

798
00:59:36,897 --> 00:59:43,337
lakes we need more ellen beats we need more stable crafts like we just need we need more

799
00:59:43,337 --> 00:59:48,337
and that was kind of my point with like the like i actually never heard contextual web of trust

800
00:59:48,337 --> 00:59:52,697
until you mentioned it because i was like well i'd barely understand web of trust and now we're

801
00:59:52,697 --> 00:59:59,837
going another layer but i like i like that because one of the things i don't like about

802
00:59:59,837 --> 01:00:05,397
nostr is that i have the same following across everything and i don't want to see everyone

803
01:00:05,397 --> 01:00:12,977
across every app and i think that's kind of where that comes into play but like it's all it's all

804
01:00:12,977 --> 01:00:21,977
rss at the end of the day like it always it always has been and i don't know like it's just funny to

805
01:00:21,977 --> 01:00:32,857
get like the pushback from nostril and bitcoiners about using rss where their favorite podcasting

806
01:00:32,857 --> 01:00:43,397
app fountain uses rss and that's how like it's i don't know like it just gets it gets kind of

807
01:00:43,397 --> 01:00:49,217
weird where it's like oh we want everything on nostril and fountain's this great nostril app

808
01:00:49,217 --> 01:00:59,917
But like if you would – if you pulled out the RSS, I mean maybe they'll add Noster like native stuff down the road.

809
01:00:59,997 --> 01:01:00,477
I don't know.

810
01:01:00,957 --> 01:01:03,817
But they're also – yeah, like they're also a podcast app.

811
01:01:03,997 --> 01:01:06,757
So like they're not just Bitcoin and Noster.

812
01:01:06,937 --> 01:01:11,417
They're also – you can listen to Joe Rogan on there for example.

813
01:01:13,237 --> 01:01:18,637
Yeah, I think my point, Chad, was maybe the distinction doesn't even matter, right?

814
01:01:18,637 --> 01:01:20,537
And it's not, if someone says this,

815
01:01:20,917 --> 01:01:24,617
and when I said Fountain can be considered a Nostra music app,

816
01:01:24,677 --> 01:01:27,737
I didn't mean to say in the sense that,

817
01:01:27,797 --> 01:01:30,857
well, RSS part is irrelevant, right?

818
01:01:30,977 --> 01:01:34,177
What I was trying to say is these two are synergistic.

819
01:01:35,057 --> 01:01:35,417
Synergistic.

820
01:01:35,997 --> 01:01:38,877
The fact that Fountain can incorporate Nostra,

821
01:01:39,037 --> 01:01:40,577
they've already done for social.

822
01:01:40,997 --> 01:01:43,677
You just add a little bit of curation on top of that

823
01:01:43,677 --> 01:01:44,757
using Web of Trust,

824
01:01:44,757 --> 01:01:48,217
and then you have the distribution already solved with RSS.

825
01:01:48,637 --> 01:01:55,737
I think the end goal of both communities has been, I think, resolved,

826
01:01:55,917 --> 01:02:00,157
which is independent musicians have a way of reaching audiences,

827
01:02:00,657 --> 01:02:04,297
potentially monetizing their creation.

828
01:02:04,957 --> 01:02:10,157
And then conversely, audiences have a way of finding music that they actually like

829
01:02:10,157 --> 01:02:12,237
without having to go through a centralized platform

830
01:02:12,237 --> 01:02:15,937
and supporting these platforms and labels too, for that matter.

831
01:02:17,657 --> 01:02:18,177
Yeah.

832
01:02:18,637 --> 01:02:36,863
And the only reason that we even having these conversations is because we all kind of agreed on the Bitcoin part It the other bits that we need to Well see I just don want people to be misled

833
01:02:37,343 --> 01:02:40,463
Like Fountain Host Music now,

834
01:02:41,643 --> 01:02:42,963
and I think it's actually a pretty good deal.

835
01:02:43,043 --> 01:02:44,163
It's like $5 a month,

836
01:02:44,663 --> 01:02:49,183
and they do a lot of the Nostra and RSS stuff.

837
01:02:49,863 --> 01:02:53,803
But if you go over there and you sign up for that

838
01:02:53,803 --> 01:02:56,623
and you think it's going to show up on Noster

839
01:02:56,623 --> 01:03:00,323
and then you go to some Noster music app

840
01:03:00,323 --> 01:03:01,103
and you're not there,

841
01:03:01,203 --> 01:03:01,963
then people are like,

842
01:03:02,023 --> 01:03:04,063
well, where's my stuff?

843
01:03:04,143 --> 01:03:06,803
And it's like, well, it's on an RSS feed.

844
01:03:07,423 --> 01:03:09,703
And I don't know.

845
01:03:09,803 --> 01:03:13,783
But yeah, I think if the app levels,

846
01:03:14,883 --> 01:03:16,823
if a lot of the stuff like behind the scenes

847
01:03:16,823 --> 01:03:18,823
worked better together,

848
01:03:18,823 --> 01:03:20,623
we wouldn't have to worry about this

849
01:03:20,623 --> 01:03:22,523
because you should be able to,

850
01:03:22,523 --> 01:03:29,423
like i mean i guess it depends on what you want to show in your app but like anything that's in

851
01:03:29,423 --> 01:03:35,343
fountain should be able to be found in another app if that app wants to do

852
01:03:35,343 --> 01:03:40,463
i mean you can narrow it down obviously like you don't need everything

853
01:03:40,463 --> 01:03:46,923
like if you just wanted to do certain music or just certain podcasts but you get into this

854
01:03:46,923 --> 01:03:58,123
You get to this point where RSS is hidden, but that's also the technical backbone that needs worked on.

855
01:03:59,843 --> 01:04:06,583
So, Chad, let's hit a brief pause here and switch gears.

856
01:04:07,083 --> 01:04:09,583
It's actually a little past the one-hour mark.

857
01:04:11,063 --> 01:04:13,683
So we're going to switch gears briefly.

858
01:04:13,683 --> 01:04:22,243
we talk a lot about low time preference on the show, that ability to endure the volatility because

859
01:04:22,243 --> 01:04:30,243
you know where the math ends up. So this track is basically the sonic version of that mindset.

860
01:04:31,243 --> 01:04:39,083
It's got this nervous coffee jitters energy in the verses that perfectly captures the anxiety

861
01:04:39,083 --> 01:04:43,363
of the fiat world, and then it just explodes into clarity.

862
01:04:44,023 --> 01:04:47,163
The band is called Lukma No Cavities,

863
01:04:47,723 --> 01:04:51,343
and the track is Everything Will Fall in Its Place.

864
01:04:51,943 --> 01:04:56,703
If you need a mantra for the bear market, this is it.

865
01:04:57,923 --> 01:04:58,543
Headphones up.

866
01:05:09,083 --> 01:05:13,503
It's a morning in the morning, when you wake up before the bell.

867
01:05:14,383 --> 01:05:19,363
It's a feeling in you that keeps you awake, when you're ready for help.

868
01:05:20,763 --> 01:05:26,123
It's a knocking on your temples, it's a pain in your stomach.

869
01:05:27,343 --> 01:05:31,983
When this remains, Jesus your God, you will never go to sleep.

870
01:05:33,363 --> 01:05:35,983
And everything will fall in its place.

871
01:05:39,083 --> 01:05:42,663
Everything will fall in its place

872
01:05:42,663 --> 01:05:48,903
Everything will fall in its place

873
01:05:48,903 --> 01:05:55,303
It's a heavy on your chest

874
01:05:55,303 --> 01:05:58,363
Ocean won't decide

875
01:05:58,363 --> 01:06:00,643
It's a click in my heart

876
01:06:00,643 --> 01:06:02,163
It's a shout and true

877
01:06:02,163 --> 01:06:04,163
The echo to the side

878
01:06:04,163 --> 01:06:08,043
Everything will fall in its place

879
01:06:08,043 --> 01:06:13,723
Everything will be alright

880
01:06:13,723 --> 01:06:21,083
Everything will come to an end

881
01:06:21,083 --> 01:06:23,223
It's just a matter of time

882
01:06:23,223 --> 01:06:53,203
guitar solo

883
01:06:53,223 --> 01:06:55,283
When all the thousands of years

884
01:06:55,283 --> 01:06:57,163
I tried to forget

885
01:06:57,163 --> 01:07:02,363
But the mist is still there

886
01:07:02,363 --> 01:07:07,743
When all the thousands of years

887
01:07:07,743 --> 01:07:14,863
That was Everything Will Fall in Its Place

888
01:07:14,863 --> 01:07:17,263
by Look Ma, No Cavities.

889
01:07:17,563 --> 01:07:20,163
I absolutely love the production choice on this.

890
01:07:20,163 --> 01:07:27,623
Did you catch that shift at the 130 mark? It goes from this fragile, clean indie guitar,

891
01:07:27,783 --> 01:07:35,803
sort of like a very early 2000s, and then slams you with that wall of fuzz. A lot of modern music

892
01:07:35,803 --> 01:07:43,043
is overproduced. It's quantized to death. But this, this sounds like a bunch of guys in a garage

893
01:07:43,043 --> 01:07:48,543
just putting in the proof of work. You can hear the strain in the vocals. It's authentic.

894
01:07:48,543 --> 01:07:51,243
And honestly, the message hits home.

895
01:07:52,203 --> 01:07:53,343
We worry about the noise.

896
01:07:53,503 --> 01:07:54,763
We worry about the FUD.

897
01:07:55,343 --> 01:07:58,543
But eventually, everything falls in its place.

898
01:07:59,123 --> 01:08:01,083
TikTok, next block.

899
01:08:01,723 --> 01:08:04,943
So if you like the song and want to support this great band,

900
01:08:05,303 --> 01:08:07,703
hit that rewind button by a couple of minutes

901
01:08:07,703 --> 01:08:09,743
and then hit that boost button.

902
01:08:10,283 --> 01:08:12,363
90% will go to the band.

903
01:08:13,323 --> 01:08:16,283
Chad, have you heard of this band, Lukmar No Cavities?

904
01:08:16,283 --> 01:08:27,263
No, I actually haven't heard that band before, and I was trying to look it up real quick, but didn't quite get to it.

905
01:08:28,943 --> 01:08:40,723
But yeah, that kind of raw, almost like garage band type sound is just kind of like that DIY influence.

906
01:08:42,223 --> 01:08:42,743
Yeah.

907
01:08:42,743 --> 01:08:47,183
Yeah, so there's an interesting discussion going on.

908
01:08:47,863 --> 01:08:52,183
I was catching up on some of the stuff in the live chat on Zap.Stream.

909
01:08:53,223 --> 01:08:58,643
So there's one camp that is talking about how the underlying tech,

910
01:08:58,823 --> 01:09:00,863
and in this case we're talking about RSS and NOSTA,

911
01:09:01,643 --> 01:09:05,983
it would probably be for the best if it was obscured, right,

912
01:09:06,023 --> 01:09:08,103
and the user didn't have to deal with it.

913
01:09:08,103 --> 01:09:11,323
and then there's another camp that's saying

914
01:09:11,323 --> 01:09:13,703
why would we do that?

915
01:09:13,823 --> 01:09:15,643
Why would we want to obscure stuff from people?

916
01:09:15,803 --> 01:09:17,183
You want to teach a man how to fish

917
01:09:17,183 --> 01:09:19,763
as opposed to giving them a fish.

918
01:09:21,183 --> 01:09:23,343
What are your thoughts on that, Chad?

919
01:09:25,223 --> 01:09:28,363
I like both approaches

920
01:09:28,363 --> 01:09:36,083
because I'm in the self-hosted camp

921
01:09:36,083 --> 01:09:42,303
for your RSS and even running your own lightning node

922
01:09:42,303 --> 01:09:44,443
because I think that's important

923
01:09:44,443 --> 01:09:48,203
and people need to have that option.

924
01:09:48,883 --> 01:09:52,963
And we need people to keep that option alive.

925
01:09:53,383 --> 01:09:55,743
But then on the other hand, like I mentioned,

926
01:09:56,883 --> 01:09:58,783
fountain music earlier,

927
01:09:59,243 --> 01:10:01,983
and I'm also in that camp where I'm fine.

928
01:10:02,463 --> 01:10:05,523
I'm fine just paying for a service for a lot of stuff.

929
01:10:06,083 --> 01:10:17,103
And I think there's something in the, see, that's kind of the beauty of all this, like open protocols, is that you can kind of like choose your own adventure.

930
01:10:18,083 --> 01:10:29,583
Like you can sign up for a host and pay them to do everything for you, or you can go full DIY, or you can kind of go in the middle.

931
01:10:29,583 --> 01:10:34,583
But for more of the tech to fall away, that tech needs built first.

932
01:10:35,583 --> 01:10:42,943
And that's kind of why it comes up so often, in my opinion, is that we're still in the building phase.

933
01:10:43,323 --> 01:10:53,863
So it's hard to move that behind the curtain to make a better app if you just can't really.

934
01:10:53,863 --> 01:11:05,623
so on the so there's another good point uh in in the live chat as you said that chat and this

935
01:11:05,623 --> 01:11:10,363
sort of there's a parallel with nostra as well right there's you could go the diy approach

936
01:11:10,363 --> 01:11:19,903
or you could you get a much more white glove client but there is a line at which

937
01:11:19,903 --> 01:11:24,143
the NOSTA client stops being a true NOSTA client,

938
01:11:24,503 --> 01:11:26,723
which is if you don't control your NSEC

939
01:11:26,723 --> 01:11:27,943
and they control it for you.

940
01:11:28,223 --> 01:11:29,423
And I think there's a parallel here

941
01:11:29,423 --> 01:11:31,703
with artists and the RSS feeds.

942
01:11:31,983 --> 01:11:34,003
If the artist doesn't control their RSS feed,

943
01:11:34,423 --> 01:11:36,463
is it really worth the trade-off at that point?

944
01:11:39,363 --> 01:11:40,423
Yeah, I don't.

945
01:11:41,063 --> 01:11:45,263
I think being able to just make changes and stuff too,

946
01:11:45,343 --> 01:11:46,763
because a lot of this stuff does get hidden

947
01:11:46,763 --> 01:11:48,803
in the RSS world.

948
01:11:48,803 --> 01:11:54,483
Like you're just filling out a form, essentially,

949
01:11:55,103 --> 01:11:56,643
and the feed's getting built for you.

950
01:11:58,083 --> 01:11:59,503
But it's like anything.

951
01:12:00,023 --> 01:12:03,783
You can choose your trust level.

952
01:12:04,723 --> 01:12:09,443
But I think that kind of gets overblown with the podcasting stuff.

953
01:12:09,583 --> 01:12:15,563
I don't think it's – I think paying someone to do it for you isn't a bad thing.

954
01:12:15,563 --> 01:12:20,683
and I think people kind of, I don't know, shy away from that in the Bitcoin side.

955
01:12:22,323 --> 01:12:23,663
But the, I don't know.

956
01:12:23,863 --> 01:12:30,803
But a lot of Bitcoiners also use Spotify slash Anchor to host their podcast.

957
01:12:31,443 --> 01:12:32,923
So there's that.

958
01:12:34,963 --> 01:12:38,383
But, you know, it's too, like no one can, you know,

959
01:12:38,403 --> 01:12:39,943
you can't be a purist about everything.

960
01:12:40,323 --> 01:12:45,503
But it's just, you know, I mean, it's your art at the end of the day.

961
01:12:45,563 --> 01:12:48,663
and you choose where you want to put it.

962
01:12:49,083 --> 01:12:58,889
With your podcast you can choose where you host it I just think we need better options all around for people

963
01:13:00,889 --> 01:13:04,369
That's how all this gets built up,

964
01:13:04,809 --> 01:13:07,229
is people making cool stuff

965
01:13:07,229 --> 01:13:10,369
and kind of stealing ideas from each other

966
01:13:10,369 --> 01:13:11,469
and collaborating.

967
01:13:12,109 --> 01:13:16,509
And that's how Podcasting 2.0 came around.

968
01:13:16,609 --> 01:13:19,369
We had a bunch of podcasters and app devs.

969
01:13:19,929 --> 01:13:23,529
and listeners and enthusiasts that kind of all came together,

970
01:13:23,669 --> 01:13:31,069
but we had existing content and apps that we just kind of all came together

971
01:13:31,069 --> 01:13:34,409
and said, hey, we've been wanting this stuff and added it

972
01:13:34,409 --> 01:13:38,429
where Nostra is kind of building from everything from scratch,

973
01:13:38,429 --> 01:13:41,989
so it's a little slower of a burn.

974
01:13:41,989 --> 01:14:04,429
Chad, let's talk about one other topic that came up as I was digging into this potential, well, I mean, this tension that has existed between these two camps, Nostra and RSS, which is Keysend versus LNURL.

975
01:14:05,189 --> 01:14:08,309
So for the non-technical user, right,

976
01:14:08,309 --> 01:14:10,229
we're talking about the Lightning Network

977
01:14:10,229 --> 01:14:12,329
and there's two different ways in which,

978
01:14:13,189 --> 01:14:15,089
well, there's more than two different ways in which,

979
01:14:15,169 --> 01:14:19,089
but KeySend is one way in which you can send a Lightning payment

980
01:14:19,089 --> 01:14:26,129
and then LNURL, which is most popular on Noster, is another way.

981
01:14:27,509 --> 01:14:33,549
So can you, from your experience in the podcasting 2.0 world,

982
01:14:34,429 --> 01:14:42,929
What advantage do you see, if any, that Keysend has over LNURL in Podcasting 2.0?

983
01:14:43,009 --> 01:14:46,089
And then we can talk about how we bridge these two.

984
01:14:48,489 --> 01:14:54,069
A lot like RSS, this all has always been Keysend.

985
01:14:54,069 --> 01:15:06,529
we chose keysend um five years ago because it's it's lighter weight and it's a like a it's a push

986
01:15:06,529 --> 01:15:12,769
payment so instead of like a back and forth between your wallet and the listeners wallet

987
01:15:12,769 --> 01:15:20,689
and everything it just it just sends and maybe it makes it there maybe it doesn't but that's part of

988
01:15:20,689 --> 01:15:26,849
But we actually had, like this has always been a constant debate, even when we started early on.

989
01:15:27,409 --> 01:15:32,789
And we chose Keysend because it worked.

990
01:15:33,529 --> 01:15:40,969
But Fountain and Albie are the only wallets that really support Keysend.

991
01:15:41,909 --> 01:15:46,069
So we chose that path, and we've been using that path all along.

992
01:15:46,069 --> 01:15:56,889
but the wallets that a lot of people use like primal um coin us is a bad example because they've

993
01:15:56,889 --> 01:16:03,229
kind of started adding keysend but it just like any like normal wallet people are using

994
01:16:03,229 --> 01:16:11,609
like doesn't support keysend so there's this issue we run into now where

995
01:16:11,609 --> 01:16:15,629
I'm on your podcast telling people to

996
01:16:15,629 --> 01:16:17,929
support RSS

997
01:16:17,929 --> 01:16:19,349
and once they do

998
01:16:19,349 --> 01:16:21,429
they hit a keysend address that no

999
01:16:21,429 --> 01:16:23,889
wallets really support

1000
01:16:23,889 --> 01:16:25,329
outside of

1001
01:16:25,329 --> 01:16:26,549
Albi

1002
01:16:26,549 --> 01:16:29,869
and that's just kind of how it's always been

1003
01:16:29,869 --> 01:16:32,369
but the good thing is

1004
01:16:32,369 --> 01:16:34,689
the 2.0 spec

1005
01:16:34,689 --> 01:16:36,009
supports

1006
01:16:36,009 --> 01:16:38,229
lightning addresses

1007
01:16:38,229 --> 01:16:39,889
so you can put

1008
01:16:39,889 --> 01:16:41,049
strike

1009
01:16:41,049 --> 01:16:45,729
Like Primal, let me see, Cash App Works.

1010
01:16:47,329 --> 01:16:50,029
But like a lot of those you can put in your feed,

1011
01:16:50,549 --> 01:16:55,069
and most of the apps have updated now to support those,

1012
01:16:55,169 --> 01:17:00,029
but the apps still need Albie, and it's –

1013
01:17:00,029 --> 01:17:07,289
we're like – we're slowly working on changing it over,

1014
01:17:07,289 --> 01:17:12,549
but it's been this way for five years.

1015
01:17:13,689 --> 01:17:16,789
So Chad, I'm not a Lightning developer

1016
01:17:16,789 --> 01:17:21,589
but I'm just with streaming sats, right?

1017
01:17:21,989 --> 01:17:22,309
Yeah.

1018
01:17:22,369 --> 01:17:23,649
I can see the benefit of Keysan.

1019
01:17:23,729 --> 01:17:25,109
You just send it, right?

1020
01:17:25,149 --> 01:17:26,569
You don't have to wait for that handshake.

1021
01:17:28,709 --> 01:17:30,549
This is the issue with LNURL, right?

1022
01:17:30,569 --> 01:17:31,409
You need an invoice.

1023
01:17:32,589 --> 01:17:36,069
So it's like a, that's why it's called a handshake.

1024
01:17:36,069 --> 01:17:38,229
but with Keysight, it sounds like you just send it.

1025
01:17:39,929 --> 01:17:42,009
And that would work with streaming stats.

1026
01:17:43,829 --> 01:17:46,709
Again, maybe you spend more time thinking about this, Chad.

1027
01:17:47,289 --> 01:17:49,609
It sounds like an absolute nightmare with LNURL

1028
01:17:49,609 --> 01:17:51,589
if you want to stream stats for a podcast.

1029
01:17:53,749 --> 01:18:00,369
Yeah, because currently I think a lot of apps started batching.

1030
01:18:00,789 --> 01:18:04,489
So instead of sending it every minute, it's like every 10 minutes.

1031
01:18:04,489 --> 01:18:09,529
and Oscar's also kind of been working on this,

1032
01:18:09,949 --> 01:18:13,989
but like the, so like the boostograms,

1033
01:18:14,089 --> 01:18:15,929
which is just a boost with a message in it,

1034
01:18:16,309 --> 01:18:19,849
the message part gets sent along with the key send payment.

1035
01:18:20,509 --> 01:18:24,649
So if you switch away from key send to LNURL,

1036
01:18:25,529 --> 01:18:27,889
that message needs somewhere to go.

1037
01:18:28,969 --> 01:18:31,689
And that's also an issue we have.

1038
01:18:31,689 --> 01:18:33,189
so it's like

1039
01:18:33,189 --> 01:18:36,069
like it needs

1040
01:18:36,069 --> 01:18:38,469
I guess it needs to change

1041
01:18:38,469 --> 01:18:41,669
and like we're kind of working on it

1042
01:18:41,669 --> 01:18:42,189
but like

1043
01:18:42,189 --> 01:18:44,549
you can also change it in your feed

1044
01:18:44,549 --> 01:18:45,329
and

1045
01:18:45,329 --> 01:18:46,929
I mean

1046
01:18:46,929 --> 01:18:49,649
I mean your podcast has

1047
01:18:49,649 --> 01:18:51,409
keysend addresses

1048
01:18:51,409 --> 01:18:52,909
and

1049
01:18:52,909 --> 01:18:54,109
most

1050
01:18:54,109 --> 01:18:56,169
most of them do

1051
01:18:56,169 --> 01:18:58,309
and it's always been keysend

1052
01:18:58,309 --> 01:18:59,209
but it

1053
01:18:59,209 --> 01:19:07,929
like it works well but we have this onboarding issue where we tell people to either use fountain

1054
01:19:07,929 --> 01:19:12,169
because they give you a wallet or you have to go through the hoops to spin up

1055
01:19:13,049 --> 01:19:20,769
albie hub which albie used to be free and it was great because you could just get a wallet there

1056
01:19:20,769 --> 01:19:29,729
but they changed their business model so we're we're kind of stuck and the lightning stuff's

1057
01:19:29,729 --> 01:19:36,709
kind of been dead in podcasting 2.0 for the last year and a half and it's just one of these issues

1058
01:19:36,709 --> 01:19:45,949
that i don't know needs more people kind of working on it so i know yeah good let's i want to

1059
01:19:45,949 --> 01:19:51,369
understand this a little better chat what is the typical onboarding process for an artist right i

1060
01:19:51,369 --> 01:19:56,989
mean these i'm just going to assume an artist like from what my conversations they're not technical

1061
01:19:56,989 --> 01:20:02,849
people right they're craftsmen in their in their crafts women in their art and you know someone's

1062
01:20:02,849 --> 01:20:07,289
their agent or someone's told them hey there's this new way do you want to sign up get get away

1063
01:20:07,289 --> 01:20:12,549
from spotify so they're like okay fine i'll sign up how do they get like do they have to get an

1064
01:20:12,549 --> 01:20:24,629
How was it before Albee, Ruckpult, not Ruckpult, but they got rid of their custodial service and moved to the sovereign Albee hub model?

1065
01:20:25,309 --> 01:20:27,009
How was it then?

1066
01:20:27,169 --> 01:20:28,069
And then what happened?

1067
01:20:28,369 --> 01:20:30,609
How is it now, the onboarding process?

1068
01:20:33,789 --> 01:20:34,929
Let me think.

1069
01:20:34,929 --> 01:20:45,789
So like you've always had like Wavelake's always been an option because they do everything for you for a 10% fee.

1070
01:20:46,829 --> 01:20:51,569
So it's no cost to you.

1071
01:20:52,069 --> 01:21:02,869
You just you upload your stuff and if you get any boost in, they take 10%, which is a fine model.

1072
01:21:02,869 --> 01:21:08,609
but see since music is so new like this has only been around for like two years

1073
01:21:08,609 --> 01:21:20,769
in the podcasting 2.0 space so like not a lot of hosts support it like fountain just started

1074
01:21:20,769 --> 01:21:29,649
doing um like kind of rss stuff tailored towards musicians so you sign up there give them five

1075
01:21:29,649 --> 01:21:31,789
a month, they do all the stuff

1076
01:21:31,789 --> 01:21:33,689
for you. RSS

1077
01:21:33,689 --> 01:21:35,689
Blue used to be a good option

1078
01:21:35,689 --> 01:21:37,509
and

1079
01:21:37,509 --> 01:21:39,689
but they

1080
01:21:39,689 --> 01:21:41,629
kind of got absorbed into

1081
01:21:41,629 --> 01:21:42,289
Fountain now

1082
01:21:42,289 --> 01:21:45,709
and even with like RSS Blue

1083
01:21:45,709 --> 01:21:47,589
like you would go, like you would get a

1084
01:21:47,589 --> 01:21:48,589
Fountain wallet

1085
01:21:48,589 --> 01:21:51,349
because this was still

1086
01:21:51,349 --> 01:21:53,649
when it was 100% key send. So you get a

1087
01:21:53,649 --> 01:21:55,549
Fountain wallet or you get the

1088
01:21:55,549 --> 01:21:57,609
free Albi one and you would just

1089
01:21:57,609 --> 01:21:58,869
plug that into the website.

1090
01:21:58,869 --> 01:22:00,549
so it's kind of

1091
01:22:00,549 --> 01:22:03,849
like it was still like you would just choose a host

1092
01:22:03,849 --> 01:22:06,269
which I think it's still how a lot of podcasters

1093
01:22:06,269 --> 01:22:07,649
probably do it nowadays

1094
01:22:07,649 --> 01:22:10,869
they probably sign up for

1095
01:22:10,869 --> 01:22:14,009
like you sign up for a service

1096
01:22:14,009 --> 01:22:15,129
and it says hey what's your

1097
01:22:15,129 --> 01:22:17,169
lightning address you plug it in

1098
01:22:17,169 --> 01:22:18,289
it's probably a fountain one

1099
01:22:18,289 --> 01:22:20,209
just because that's what everyone uses

1100
01:22:20,209 --> 01:22:24,709
but since this was all

1101
01:22:24,709 --> 01:22:27,829
since this was all so new

1102
01:22:27,829 --> 01:22:34,689
a lot of it's been kind of pushed towards like self-hosting which is a huge

1103
01:22:34,689 --> 01:22:44,209
um like a huge burden for artists because it's got to be a non-starter there right right chad i

1104
01:22:44,209 --> 01:22:51,389
mean these are musicians we're talking about yeah and that's why in the early days it was

1105
01:22:51,389 --> 01:22:54,009
a lot of diehards

1106
01:22:54,009 --> 01:22:56,069
or a couple people

1107
01:22:56,069 --> 01:22:57,429
that were willing to do it

1108
01:22:57,429 --> 01:22:58,989
for these musicians

1109
01:22:58,989 --> 01:23:01,129
because we would say,

1110
01:23:01,229 --> 01:23:03,149
hey, just go and get this

1111
01:23:03,149 --> 01:23:04,329
free Albie wallet

1112
01:23:04,329 --> 01:23:06,989
and we'll do everything else for you.

1113
01:23:07,289 --> 01:23:09,949
We'll just take a small percentage

1114
01:23:09,949 --> 01:23:14,749
because we believe in this enough

1115
01:23:14,749 --> 01:23:17,969
and we just need music uploaded.

1116
01:23:18,369 --> 01:23:19,889
So a lot of us like kind of

1117
01:23:19,915 --> 01:23:24,815
onboarded just friends and stuff just so we had a catalog.

1118
01:23:25,015 --> 01:23:26,255
We're like, hey, we'll do it all.

1119
01:23:26,435 --> 01:23:30,595
All you have to do is go get this free Albie address.

1120
01:23:32,435 --> 01:23:36,515
And that worked okay until Albie changed.

1121
01:23:37,255 --> 01:23:42,095
And then you're like, hey, now you need to go get this fountain address.

1122
01:23:42,095 --> 01:23:50,735
and anyone who did the onboarding then had to go change all those feeds

1123
01:23:50,735 --> 01:23:57,715
from the albie address to the fountain one now and a lot of those still aren't changed honestly

1124
01:23:57,715 --> 01:24:05,695
because it's it's a nightmare but but you're we were in control so it was like that's what we did

1125
01:24:05,695 --> 01:24:09,275
but basically the onboarding still sucks.

1126
01:24:11,155 --> 01:24:24,655
There's Wave Lake Fountain or host your own feed somewhere with a wallet,

1127
01:24:24,775 --> 01:24:26,675
but this is like, I don't know.

1128
01:24:26,815 --> 01:24:29,295
It's all still so new that it's hard to even like,

1129
01:24:29,295 --> 01:24:41,875
Um, it's, see, like, we don't have a, like, we don't have a easy path because there is no real easy path.

1130
01:24:41,875 --> 01:24:58,235
I mean, I guess the easy path would be sign up for Wave Lake or pay Fountain $5 a month or kind of go into the Wild West and figure this out.

1131
01:24:59,295 --> 01:25:02,295
and was the Wavelake

1132
01:25:02,295 --> 01:25:03,315
wallet

1133
01:25:03,315 --> 01:25:06,215
I didn't realize that supported Keysand

1134
01:25:06,215 --> 01:25:08,535
yeah

1135
01:25:08,535 --> 01:25:09,735
I don't

1136
01:25:09,735 --> 01:25:12,395
I don't know how Wavelake

1137
01:25:12,395 --> 01:25:12,875
works

1138
01:25:12,875 --> 01:25:16,175
on the back end too much

1139
01:25:16,175 --> 01:25:17,735
but you upload to Wavelake

1140
01:25:17,735 --> 01:25:20,455
they actually make a RSS

1141
01:25:20,455 --> 01:25:20,995
feed

1142
01:25:20,995 --> 01:25:23,915
that goes to podcast index

1143
01:25:23,915 --> 01:25:26,435
and that's why Wavelake hosted stuff

1144
01:25:26,435 --> 01:25:27,715
shows up in Fountain

1145
01:25:27,715 --> 01:25:30,035
it's because

1146
01:25:30,035 --> 01:25:33,015
they make the feed for you

1147
01:25:33,015 --> 01:25:34,755
but they also have their own API

1148
01:25:34,755 --> 01:25:37,075
that you can use that

1149
01:25:37,075 --> 01:25:38,935
I don't know anything about

1150
01:25:38,935 --> 01:25:40,195
and I think that

1151
01:25:40,195 --> 01:25:42,935
gets around the

1152
01:25:42,935 --> 01:25:45,115
key send stuff, I'm not too sure

1153
01:25:45,115 --> 01:25:46,995
but I think

1154
01:25:46,995 --> 01:25:48,315
you just put any wallet in

1155
01:25:48,315 --> 01:25:50,755
to their site and they just

1156
01:25:50,755 --> 01:25:53,235
they get your payment

1157
01:25:53,235 --> 01:25:55,155
they take their 10% and then

1158
01:25:55,155 --> 01:25:57,235
the 90 gets split up how you want

1159
01:25:57,235 --> 01:26:04,495
but I'm not familiar enough to know how that works on the back end.

1160
01:26:04,995 --> 01:26:12,035
But it's, I don't know, it just gets muddy and it's hard to.

1161
01:26:14,895 --> 01:26:16,015
Well, that's the thing, right?

1162
01:26:16,055 --> 01:26:17,855
The devs need to figure this stuff out.

1163
01:26:18,875 --> 01:26:21,575
The devs need to figure it out and then create experiences

1164
01:26:21,575 --> 01:26:25,175
that make onboarding easier and just general day-to-day use,

1165
01:26:25,375 --> 01:26:26,595
easier for the end users,

1166
01:26:26,595 --> 01:26:30,055
whether it's the musicians or podcasters they're onboarding

1167
01:26:30,055 --> 01:26:33,335
or the consumers and listeners on the other side.

1168
01:26:34,235 --> 01:26:35,915
And I don't think we're quite there yet,

1169
01:26:36,275 --> 01:26:40,235
but this sounds like an incredibly solvable problem to me.

1170
01:26:40,535 --> 01:26:43,815
Building user experiences is not that difficult.

1171
01:26:44,115 --> 01:26:49,735
If the guys at X and Spotify and others could figure out user experience,

1172
01:26:49,875 --> 01:26:53,795
then why can't honey badgers of this community figure it out?

1173
01:26:56,595 --> 01:26:59,535
What about Nostra Wallet Connect?

1174
01:27:00,055 --> 01:27:06,635
Has that helped mitigate some of these disconnects between Keysend and LNURL?

1175
01:27:07,895 --> 01:27:14,535
No, because the feeds still have Keysend addresses in them.

1176
01:27:19,315 --> 01:27:24,055
We've got apps that we added Nostra Wallet Connect to, but you still need an Albi wallet.

1177
01:27:24,055 --> 01:27:25,935
so it's kind of

1178
01:27:25,935 --> 01:27:28,595
a non-starter

1179
01:27:28,595 --> 01:27:29,155
like you can

1180
01:27:29,155 --> 01:27:30,395
you can hook up

1181
01:27:30,395 --> 01:27:30,935
your Primal

1182
01:27:30,935 --> 01:27:32,315
wallet

1183
01:27:32,315 --> 01:27:33,135
and it just

1184
01:27:33,135 --> 01:27:35,095
it just fails

1185
01:27:35,095 --> 01:27:49,940
because it doesn support Keysend so it I don know I don know what the path forward is but I think we just need people kind of looking at the problem

1186
01:27:49,940 --> 01:27:55,060
because it's all in like a transition period now.

1187
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:58,100
But I don't know.

1188
01:27:58,180 --> 01:28:04,660
Like I think the onboarding stuff could be pretty easy.

1189
01:28:05,180 --> 01:28:23,680
And the reason we don't have better stuff in like the podcasting 2.0 side for onboarding is because no one really wants to host anyone's stuff for them without like being a company yourself just because from like it's just it's not worth it.

1190
01:28:23,680 --> 01:28:47,340
I think that's kind of where Nostra could come in with something like Nostra.build or the other services to just host the stuff because you host it somewhere and then you put it on a feed and a lot of people can ingest it then.

1191
01:28:47,340 --> 01:28:52,760
are there any lightning developers

1192
01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:56,040
who are seriously paying attention to this

1193
01:28:56,040 --> 01:28:57,200
this problem

1194
01:28:57,200 --> 01:29:00,880
um

1195
01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:02,140
albie

1196
01:29:02,140 --> 01:29:04,120
that's about it

1197
01:29:04,120 --> 01:29:06,040
well albie and fountain

1198
01:29:06,040 --> 01:29:07,400
but fountain has

1199
01:29:07,400 --> 01:29:09,060
their own wallet

1200
01:29:09,060 --> 01:29:11,060
that they pay for

1201
01:29:11,060 --> 01:29:12,640
so that's

1202
01:29:12,640 --> 01:29:15,160
so they run their own

1203
01:29:15,160 --> 01:29:17,060
and like albie's been here

1204
01:29:17,060 --> 01:29:18,460
since the beginning.

1205
01:29:19,980 --> 01:29:22,060
And I don't know.

1206
01:29:22,180 --> 01:29:24,860
We just get told Keysan's dead,

1207
01:29:25,420 --> 01:29:26,520
which I don't know.

1208
01:29:26,660 --> 01:29:27,800
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't,

1209
01:29:27,860 --> 01:29:29,720
but we're still all using it,

1210
01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:31,940
whether we know it or not.

1211
01:29:32,540 --> 01:29:38,380
And it's a mismatch between the wallets.

1212
01:29:39,140 --> 01:29:42,020
So it's like taking your credit card

1213
01:29:42,020 --> 01:29:43,720
to a cash-only business.

1214
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:47,960
you know it's like i'm i'm sorry i can't i can't help you

1215
01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:55,020
right it's all just i don't know it's all just kind of part of trying to

1216
01:29:55,020 --> 01:30:03,780
just getting more eyes on the problem i mean key sound is working right i don't understand it at a

1217
01:30:03,780 --> 01:30:10,340
technical enough level i've read people say it has its limitations i i i can't assess that but

1218
01:30:10,340 --> 01:30:12,200
I mean, we get paid.

1219
01:30:12,780 --> 01:30:14,600
Our Fountain wallets are our key send.

1220
01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:17,460
Although they work with both, right?

1221
01:30:17,540 --> 01:30:23,320
Like I can send from my – I've transferred many times from my Fountain wallet to my Primal wallet.

1222
01:30:24,640 --> 01:30:25,740
So that's interesting.

1223
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:29,500
I guess I should ask Oscar that, how he pulled that off.

1224
01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:39,600
Well, see, they – Fountain on the back end uses Zebedee or ZBD, whichever you want to call it.

1225
01:30:40,340 --> 01:30:52,640
So they have, they pay X number a month for that backend that handles Keysend and LNURL.

1226
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:57,920
So they're able to kind of see, they're able to use whatever.

1227
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:08,220
And that's also a little bit of the issue is that like Fountain's always supported Keysend and we've always used Keysend.

1228
01:31:08,220 --> 01:31:14,680
And so when I'm on your podcast, you know, telling people to, hey, we need RSS stuff.

1229
01:31:14,760 --> 01:31:17,140
And then they're like, hey, this doesn't work, but it works in Fountain.

1230
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:27,380
It's like, well, yeah, Fountain's, you know, paying a couple hundred dollars a month for, you know, to be able to host wallets for people.

1231
01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:31,880
There's kind of like, yeah.

1232
01:31:32,080 --> 01:31:37,140
And like the Fountain, I guess when it gets weird because like Fountain's made it easy for people.

1233
01:31:38,220 --> 01:31:40,420
But then, like, if you want to do a Fountain alternative,

1234
01:31:41,780 --> 01:31:43,1000
there's, like, there's all this stuff in the back end

1235
01:31:43,1000 --> 01:31:46,680
that kind of gets hidden that you're like,

1236
01:31:46,740 --> 01:31:49,060
oh, this kind of has some issues with it.

1237
01:31:50,020 --> 01:31:50,880
Well, that's the thing, right?

1238
01:31:50,980 --> 01:31:54,220
Like, doing all of this stuff non-custodially

1239
01:31:54,220 --> 01:31:55,300
is infinitely harder.

1240
01:31:56,160 --> 01:32:08,404
I think how Fountain achieves it as you were saying that Chad it kind of clicked for me It just they map the sats that come in and key send gets mapped to the LNURL database somehow right

1241
01:32:08,464 --> 01:32:09,724
So the balance does.

1242
01:32:10,204 --> 01:32:11,824
So that's how they can handle both.

1243
01:32:11,944 --> 01:32:20,824
The incoming through boosts and the streaming sats, those come in as key send.

1244
01:32:20,824 --> 01:32:24,604
And then if I want to send out to Primal, I'll say, fine, I have a backend mapping.

1245
01:32:24,604 --> 01:32:27,884
so you could just, you know,

1246
01:32:28,044 --> 01:32:30,124
we'll send those stats as LNURL.

1247
01:32:30,724 --> 01:32:32,384
And I think, look, it's a trade-off, right?

1248
01:32:32,464 --> 01:32:34,324
Like you were talking about this earlier.

1249
01:32:34,884 --> 01:32:39,984
And I would even say the smart trade-off Fountain has made

1250
01:32:39,984 --> 01:32:43,264
is, look, by going fully custodial with our wallet,

1251
01:32:43,444 --> 01:32:46,664
we can do this, and if people trust us, they'll use us.

1252
01:32:46,724 --> 01:32:48,484
And I trust, you know, they're friends of mine,

1253
01:32:48,564 --> 01:32:51,024
so I have no issues with using Fountain.

1254
01:32:51,024 --> 01:32:54,124
If someone says, well, I don't have that relationship

1255
01:32:54,124 --> 01:32:56,344
with Oscar and Davidas and the other guys,

1256
01:32:56,364 --> 01:32:57,304
so I don't know them.

1257
01:32:57,844 --> 01:32:59,544
I'd rather have a fully sovereign,

1258
01:33:00,844 --> 01:33:01,924
non-custodial wallet.

1259
01:33:02,764 --> 01:33:03,784
I don't think it's possible

1260
01:33:03,784 --> 01:33:07,464
just to map a key sent payment

1261
01:33:07,464 --> 01:33:09,384
to an LNURL payment.

1262
01:33:12,524 --> 01:33:13,044
Yeah.

1263
01:33:14,784 --> 01:33:17,864
We just, a lot of us that are kind of working on this,

1264
01:33:17,964 --> 01:33:19,144
we just use AlbiHub.

1265
01:33:19,524 --> 01:33:21,024
Like I run my own Lightning Node

1266
01:33:21,024 --> 01:33:24,904
that accepts key send addresses,

1267
01:33:25,624 --> 01:33:29,244
but Albie gives me a get Albie address.

1268
01:33:30,644 --> 01:33:33,284
So kind of the one thing that's kind of cool

1269
01:33:33,284 --> 01:33:36,184
that I wish got used more

1270
01:33:36,184 --> 01:33:38,124
is that there's actually like a lookup

1271
01:33:38,124 --> 01:33:39,644
for this stuff on the back end.

1272
01:33:40,284 --> 01:33:45,444
So I can put chadf at getalbie.com in a feed

1273
01:33:45,444 --> 01:33:50,964
and the app can hit that address

1274
01:33:50,964 --> 01:33:58,284
and find my LNURL payment information and my keysend information.

1275
01:33:58,284 --> 01:34:01,624
So it can look at it and say, hey, keysend's easier.

1276
01:34:01,864 --> 01:34:02,744
Let's do keysend.

1277
01:34:02,984 --> 01:34:08,364
Or I don't do keysend, so I only have to do LNURL.

1278
01:34:08,624 --> 01:34:15,404
So there's like – really what would fix a lot of this is if we just had a way

1279
01:34:15,404 --> 01:34:20,424
to put like multiple addresses in your feed.

1280
01:34:21,264 --> 01:34:23,624
So you could be like, hey, here's my keysend one.

1281
01:34:24,864 --> 01:34:30,304
If you don't do keysend, here's, you know, my fountain one or my primal.

1282
01:34:31,304 --> 01:34:35,184
But we don't have that option.

1283
01:34:36,004 --> 01:34:41,284
But then again, anyone can put, you can put a primal address in your feed

1284
01:34:41,284 --> 01:34:44,244
and it'll work just fine.

1285
01:34:44,244 --> 01:34:49,924
But you have to know you have a feed and you have to know you can do that.

1286
01:34:50,344 --> 01:34:54,904
And here we go in this big circle again.

1287
01:34:55,724 --> 01:35:03,844
But there's a lot of us podcast nerds that really like this stuff and try to figure it out.

1288
01:35:04,044 --> 01:35:11,744
But the more we try to bridge this stuff, we just keep hitting dead ends.

1289
01:35:11,744 --> 01:35:16,384
so we're like all right we're gonna build we didn't want music apps we're gonna build music

1290
01:35:16,384 --> 01:35:23,764
apps right now using what we have since we need better apps and then pick up pieces along the way

1291
01:35:23,764 --> 01:35:30,564
which is kind of what i mean which is what podcasting 2.0 is i mean it's just

1292
01:35:30,564 --> 01:35:38,584
you know we've got this i don't know which way we'll call it some old hot rod or a rap rod or

1293
01:35:38,584 --> 01:35:42,864
whatever and we're like going we're going to swap meets and kind of seeing what'll be cool

1294
01:35:42,864 --> 01:35:48,404
and we're like hey that'll you know that'll work we can you know put that piece here and that piece

1295
01:35:48,404 --> 01:35:59,964
there and i don't know just try to build something cool cool what chad uh i know we're at the hour

1296
01:35:59,964 --> 01:36:08,264
and a half mark um so we should be wrapping up what the any last words you'd want to leave uh

1297
01:36:08,264 --> 01:36:14,444
audience with? Where can they find your work? Any calls to action?

1298
01:36:17,504 --> 01:36:35,669
I would say if you want to kind of see what yeah i would say check out stablecraft k dot app or there another app too that um sir libre and i kind of been working on

1299
01:36:35,669 --> 01:36:45,509
that's v for the number four v music.com and that's kind of our our different takes

1300
01:36:45,509 --> 01:36:54,589
on the music stuff and i don't know like i think i think rss is good i'll have the sorry uh chad

1301
01:36:54,589 --> 01:37:00,429
i'll have both of those up in the show notes for folks listening yeah yeah i think we just need

1302
01:37:00,429 --> 01:37:07,829
just seeing more people kind of tinkering around with stuff under the hood and like we need more

1303
01:37:07,829 --> 01:37:16,229
fountains we need more wave lakes we need more stable crafts we need more more whatever and even

1304
01:37:16,229 --> 01:37:22,709
if you don't want to use rss if you want to just do fully noster music i mean i think that's cool

1305
01:37:22,709 --> 01:37:30,569
too because that's really what like we just want artists to be able to um we just want them like

1306
01:37:30,569 --> 01:37:36,569
be able to be in control of their art and get, you know,

1307
01:37:36,589 --> 01:37:43,789
the direct support from their listeners and try to break them out of this

1308
01:37:43,789 --> 01:37:49,929
Spotify or Apple music chain that they're kind of in.

1309
01:37:50,009 --> 01:37:53,569
So we just, we just need to build cool stuff and hopefully get some musicians

1310
01:37:54,289 --> 01:37:56,729
that'll try it out and tell their fans.

1311
01:37:56,729 --> 01:37:59,289
And then we just go from there, but we need people.

1312
01:38:00,569 --> 01:38:04,549
We need people hearing the music first before we can scale.

1313
01:38:06,829 --> 01:38:09,189
Yeah, that is for sure.

1314
01:38:09,429 --> 01:38:12,369
And I think for Nostra developers who are trying to reinvent the wheel,

1315
01:38:12,529 --> 01:38:14,589
I know you said it's cool chat.

1316
01:38:14,669 --> 01:38:15,209
Of course it's cool.

1317
01:38:15,289 --> 01:38:16,709
People can do whatever they want, right?

1318
01:38:16,809 --> 01:38:19,729
But my suggestion would be don't reinvent the wheel.

1319
01:38:20,389 --> 01:38:23,569
You have an existing open distribution layer.

1320
01:38:23,889 --> 01:38:26,069
So look into how you can leverage that

1321
01:38:26,069 --> 01:38:30,049
and then use Nostra for what it's good at,

1322
01:38:30,049 --> 01:38:35,509
which is identity, reputation, curation, and discovery.

1323
01:38:37,169 --> 01:38:44,869
Well, Chad, thank you for taking the time to educate me more than anyone else,

1324
01:38:44,969 --> 01:38:47,089
and then, of course, our audience as well.

1325
01:38:49,229 --> 01:38:53,629
I think this is super helpful to understand some of the history here,

1326
01:38:54,489 --> 01:38:58,709
and more than that, how we can build bridges between these two worlds.

1327
01:38:58,709 --> 01:39:13,309
I think we need to have more conversations like this and build out Freedom Tech in a complementary way that helps creators connect to audiences in a sovereign way.

1328
01:39:14,449 --> 01:39:16,429
So thank you all for listening.

1329
01:39:17,069 --> 01:39:20,289
The live stream chat was incredibly lively.

1330
01:39:20,869 --> 01:39:22,489
I'm sorry I couldn't get to all the comments.

1331
01:39:22,589 --> 01:39:24,289
It was scrolling a little too fast for me.

1332
01:39:24,289 --> 01:39:32,049
and then if you are listening to the podcast i hope you're doing it on a podcasting 2.0 app

1333
01:39:32,049 --> 01:39:40,929
like fountain and if you are on fountain i hope you hit that subscribe button your support and

1334
01:39:40,929 --> 01:39:48,369
generosity goes a long way in keeping this podcast ad free and folks i as we're entering the new year

1335
01:39:48,369 --> 01:39:53,389
I'm going to be thinking about some new ideas for the show.

1336
01:39:53,529 --> 01:39:55,889
We have our flagship show today, Friday.

1337
01:39:56,729 --> 01:40:01,229
But I am thinking of introducing under the Pleb Chain Radio umbrella,

1338
01:40:01,229 --> 01:40:04,029
a more technical show on Web of Trust,

1339
01:40:04,289 --> 01:40:07,629
and then maybe a more chill music show,

1340
01:40:08,369 --> 01:40:12,529
music and relaxed conversation.

1341
01:40:13,949 --> 01:40:15,829
But stay tuned. I'm just thinking that through.

1342
01:40:15,909 --> 01:40:17,529
I'll put it in a blog post.

1343
01:40:17,529 --> 01:40:19,749
long-form article and shoot that out.

1344
01:40:19,809 --> 01:40:20,789
Would love to hear your feedback.

1345
01:40:21,969 --> 01:40:25,249
But yes, the reason I bring this up is

1346
01:40:25,249 --> 01:40:29,709
2026, expect more things from Plep Chain Radio.

1347
01:40:30,389 --> 01:40:31,369
Thank you all for listening,

1348
01:40:32,149 --> 01:40:35,409
and we'll see you again next week.

1349
01:40:36,469 --> 01:40:38,789
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.