Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses
on the intersection of Nostra and Bitcoin protocols.
Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current
thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,
doers, and plebs.
All right, we are live.
Welcome, gentle pioneers, to the lightning-laced airwaves.
Today is Friday the 26th of December, a merry belated Christmas to all you pioneers.
It is 1 p.m. on the east coast of the United States at the time of recording.
This is episode 143 of Plep Chain Radio, and this is going to be a fun one.
Our guest today is a man who's probably forgotten more about Podcasting 2.0 in a day than most can remember in a lifetime, Chad F.
Looking forward to that conversation.
And don't miss our Value for Value music segment coming up later in the show.
Yet another independent music banger that emerged from the messy and chaotic human web.
That is the Noster Commons section.
stay tuned for that 90% of your boost during the song will go directly to the artist and all the
more reason folks that if you are listening to the show on apple or spotify first of all thank
you for listening but i would urge you to hit pause and switch over to the fountain podcasting
app where you can earn some stats and support the value for value revolution while you listen
And while you're there, I would appreciate it if you hit that subscribe button.
Your support and generosity goes a long way in keeping this mic warm and the podcast ad-free.
And for the very first time, folks, this show will be streamed live from my live self-hosted streaming server.
And because of the magic of NIP 53, the stream will be available on any NOSTA client that supports streaming such as Amethyst, NOSTA, Fountain, Primal, and NOSTRIA.
July 18, the sequel to my first novel, 24, is now out, as is the second edition of 24 itself.
The links to both are in the show notes.
The Nosfabrica Web of Trust Hackathon, or Wattathon, is underway, with the sixth group call concluding a short while ago today.
The teams are still forming, and some of them are getting ready to finalize their idea submissions, but it's not too late to join in.
You can find more information at nosfabrica.com slash Wattathon. That's W-O-T-A-T-H-O-N.
And as we head into the new year, I want to launch a new segment for the show.
I want you to use your sats to dissent.
If you disagree with anything I say in the sermon, let's hear it and let's hear why.
I'm turning the boost segment from a fan club into a fight club.
And let's start right now with today's upcoming sermon.
If you think I'm naive or I missed a fatal flaw, boost in and attack the argument.
I will read your boosts, the three highest value counterpoints.
I will read them without a counter argument of my own.
Well, I will read them verbatim and unless it's completely egregious, I will leave it at that.
So don't be a cheerleader, be a stress tester.
And with that, here is the sermon, the bridge.
History doesn't repeat, but it certainly rhymes.
And if you listen closely to the history of the internet, you can hear a very specific rhythm.
It is the oscillating beat between the open frontier and the walled garden, between the cathedral and the bazaar.
For the last couple of years, we've been presented with a rather strange choice.
You're either an RSS fundamentalist, clushing your XML feeds like ancient scrolls,
or you're a neophile surfing the high-speed relays of NOSTA.
We've been sold a false dichotomy that suggests these two beautiful, chaotic, open movements are somehow at odds,
that one must die for the other to live.
But that is a failure of imagination.
The truth is, RSS and NOSTA are not enemies.
They're not even competitors.
They are, in fact, the two missing halves of a single sovereign nervous system.
Think about it.
RSS is the bedrock.
It is the immutable record of, I made this.
It is the library.
It is the storage of the artifact itself, be it a podcast episode about macroeconomics or an independent track from a musician in Nashville.
It stands alone, asking permission from no one.
But a library without visitors is just a tomb.
And there, perhaps, was the first misstep.
The shelves were built, but it was the algorithmic overlords who told you what to read.
Apple, Spotify and YouTube gladly stepped in to become curators
And they failed, as we well know
With the promise of convenience, they took away serendipity
They replaced human taste with engagement metrics
And that is where NOSTA comes in
NOSTA isn't the library
It is the public square just outside the library doors
It is the fabric of trust we've been dreaming of.
It is the social layer that RSS always lacked.
It is the discovery engine fueled by the cryptographic attestations of people you actually respect, not by ad tech.
I've been talking a lot lately about music on the show and about how broken the discovery model is.
Imagine a world where playlists are curated by a decentralized list of tastemakers you subscribe to.
A world where value flows directly from the listener's lightning wallet to the artist's node,
riding the rails of podcasting 2.0 tags, signaled and amplified through NOSTA relays.
This is the harmony that is possible.
A world where RSS provides the sovereignty of publication and NOSTA provides the sovereignty of discovery.
There is no need to burn down the old world.
We can build a bridge to the new one.
And standing right in the middle of that bridge, welding the steel beams together with a smile, is today's guest.
He's a veteran of the podcasting space, a champion of Valley for Value, and a man who understands that the future of media isn't about platforms, it's about protocols.
So here is the bridge builder himself, Chad F. Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, good sir.
Thanks for having me on and good morning, fellow plebs.
GM indeed.
yes that was a nice uh that was a nice sermon and i think that kind of it actually kind of summed up
kind of some of my thinking on this stuff as well but we'll get into that
and it is interesting yeah before we get into that i actually want to get into this first
there is a legend that you are the person who sent the first ever booster gram is that
historically accurate or just a myth no that's that's a myth but i i don't know you know that's
actually a really good question i wonder who the first person was it would have been someone testing
something out but i am the first person to boost a lot of shows so i'm kind of i've been called the
derrick ross of podcasting 2.0 i'm kind of like the welcoming committee and like when i see a new
show pop up i like to send them a boost to just let them know that everything is kind of working
so yeah i'm i'm not the first but i'm one of the first
so chad you said you're like the derrick ross uh who we joke in the nostor world uh as is the ceo
of NOSTA, but he is certainly one of our most enthusiastic evangelists. So you are that of the
RSS world, and people in that space are, I'm sure, very familiar with your work. But for folks on
NOSTA who might not be as familiar, maybe it'd be helpful if you told us a little bit about your
journey and then how you found Nostra. All right. So this actually goes all the way back to 2010,
but it's a quick story. So 2010, I started listening to this little podcast called No Agenda
with Adam Curry and John C. Dvorak. So I listened to that for a decade and that's where this
value for value model kind of started where it you can do away with advertising if you just ask your audience to support you with they call time talent and treasure so that money um promoting the show sharing the show um helping with art and stuff
so i listened to that for a decade and then one day alex jones gets de-platformed from
Apple Podcasts
and we kind of realized
that Apple is the
centralized corporate
index for podcasting
so a lot of apps used it
so he got deplatformed
and apps like Overcast
and I can't think of any off
so all the apps
that were used in Apple
Alex Jones got kicked off all of them
so Adam
spins up Podcast Index
and
And so it was first to take back control of the index.
So we just scraped everything and built a new independent index
that's also run off the value for value model.
So like podcasting apps or hosting companies or just anyone help support and run that.
So we kind of do that.
And then we're like, okay, now we need to work on payments.
So a lot of us were using PayPal and actually still do.
But Adam stumbled upon the Bitcoin Lightning Network.
I think it was, I think it might have actually been Marty Bent from, well, it was Tales from the Crypt then, but now it's just TFTC.
um yeah so he kind of saw what he was doing with these um small instant
micropayments and we were kind of like kind of familiar with bitcoin but we weren't really using
it but it's kind of come up before by the actually it's a donation method for no agenda so
So we start looking into Bitcoin.
I get orange-pilled from that probably five years ago.
And then Noster kind of comes into the picture,
and I start picking up vibe coding
and start going on podcasts to try to tie all this together.
because I just started out as a listener for like the podcasting 2.0 stuff,
and I was following Adam.
So he started this new podcast project.
So I was like, all right, I'll jump on board.
Pretty much a beta tester for apps,
helping out with the lightning stuff when it was early,
just making sure it was working and everything.
And then I started vibe coding,
and now I can actually take like five years of knowledge
and piece it all together and just try to pull this RSS and Noster
and Bitcoin pieces together and kind of see where they fit.
That's kind of an overview.
And what was your first Vibe-goated app?
I forget the first one.
I think I was using the early version of Shakespeare
to try to make like a podcasting app, I think,
because Derek Ross put a video up, I don't know,
five, six months ago of him vibe coding.
And I watched that like four or five times over a weekend.
And I kind of realized I could do it.
But I think it was,
I think at first it was just kind of like stumbling around
because it was a lot to learn.
Like that was the first time I ever used GitHub
or like really started diving under the hood for this RSS stuff.
And then like any good vibe coder,
you get about 12 different projects going
that you kind of shuffle between.
And you see your life savings drain away from you,
which is the other thing that happens.
yeah um that was actually one of the things that like derrick ross
kind of warned about that was one of his reasons of putting out that video
of how to do it um like cheaper but no it actually hasn't been
i mean it's not cheap but it's not terribly expensive
but i'm kind of i'm kind of building the stuff i wish
was out there so it's uh i don't know i can afford it so i'm just kind of diving in
and you've built something called Stablecraft, correct?
Yes, that is my take on a value-for-value music player.
So what exactly does Stablecraft do?
Well, for anyone listening, it's stable, K-R-A-F-T, dot app.
um it's a at the bare bones it is a rss music player um this podcasting 2.0 stuff
like came from podcasting and then we saw an opportunity to add music to it because it's
really nothing like it's it's not any different it's still artwork it's still like the metadata
it's still an mp3 and actually joe martin kind of saw this before a lot of us because he was
he was one of the early ones to just like put his music up basically as a podcast
but um podcast apps don't make great music players so a few of us have been trying to
Bob Coderone, and that's what Stablecraft is now.
So it pulls in music from Podcast Index and just displays it.
I mean, if you go in there and comb around, all the artwork, the descriptions,
and everything all come right from the RSS feed.
and then it also has
boost
it has like auto boost
you can turn on when the songs are over
a little bit of Nostra stuff
like you can log in with Nostra
if you send a boost
when you're logged in with Nostra
it sends that to Nostra
favorites with Nostra
kind of work
but I've just been
it's just kind of been like this behemoth
that I've had in the background
that I've been slowly working on.
So I'll kind of do like a little small vibe code app
and then kind of like to kind of learn
and then put it on Stablecraft and then, yeah.
So it's just kind of like a catch-all
and it's my take on a music player.
So that is really, it's a simple app
in the sense that what it gives the user
is just a reliable music player from all the independent songs
that are on Podcast Index.
Correct.
Yeah.
So let's actually dive into the thing we alluded to at the very beginning,
which is, okay, so maybe I'll take a step back here, Chad.
I'm not as familiar with this world as you are.
I mean, I've had this podcast for three years,
and we've been on Fountain,
And so, you know, this sort of the boost and all of that stuff, Podcasting 2.0 has always been in the background.
Haven't really paid that much attention to the stuff that happens behind the scenes.
And, you know, I've gotten the sense over the last year or so that there is some tension between the NOST.
First of all, there is a NOST camp versus a Podcasting 2.0, RSS camp.
And there is some tension there.
And I've been trying to understand it a little more.
I mean, this conversation hopefully will educate me more on that.
But I've certainly noticed that, you know, it's not all kumbaya.
So what is your perspective on that?
Is there a disconnect between the NOSTA world and the podcasting 2.0 world?
And why do you think that is?
yeah there is a disconnect and a lot of it a lot of it comes down to
kind of like when you came into this because like like podcasting 2.0 has been going on for
five years and it's it's changed a lot so depending on how new you are
kind of depends.
I don't know.
Like, you don't...
Like, it's a lot of stuff to cover.
So, like, if you came in within the last year,
you might only know the Noster Fountain stuff,
but there's also four years before that
that kind of led us here.
And really, I think...
If I'm being honest,
what I think it comes down to is
we...
The Podcasting 2.0 side
we had existing podcasts.
We had existing apps that we added Lightning payments into.
And even in the earlier days, Adam went around to a lot of Bitcoin podcasts
to kind of promote this.
And I think Tales from the Crypt was like the first Bitcoin podcast
I ever listened to years ago.
So he kind of goes around and lets his Bitcoin podcast know kind of what we up to And we kind of get some help from the Bitcoin side And then it kind of dies down
A lot of the plumbing with Lightning stuff has changed over the years.
So we're kind of over here.
We're podcasters.
We're building podcast apps.
We're trying to add Lightning.
and like we just don't get many bitcoiners like trying to come over to help and then like fountain
launches and they're bitcoin focused so all the bitcoiners use fountain and i mean fountains i've
been using fountain since it before it came out actually and i think they're doing good stuff but
there's more out there than fountain so i think like we were like we were trying to go real broad
with it but like bitcoiners only know about fountain and now that fountain has nostr
the bitcoin nostr community is even more narrow where it's um because before it was like oh your
app doesn't have easy lightning stuff like fountain has but now it's like oh you don't even have
nostr so like we're not interested so it's like you talked about like bridge building and
from my perspective i don't see much of the nostr bitcoin side coming over to the rss side to kind of
help out like we're not we're not meeting in the middle and i think that's a lot of
where the tension comes from and plus the well like a lot of us that are over that are on noster
kind of preaching the rss stuff like we've been part of this no agenda community for like over a
decade and like we're rooted in rss and like anything we build has to be rss
but that doesn't mean that like every i'm trying to think i want to word this
like kind of like how you mentioned in the sermon it's like rss is our base layer and then we added
all kinds of features on top of that and we added bitcoin and like we're adding a little bit of
nostr now and i think if more nostr like apps and services would kind of pull in the rss stuff i
I mean, because there's millions of podcast feeds out there just waiting for people to build apps.
And there's thousands of music feeds floating around out there just waiting.
Because I kind of see that too with the Nostra stuff.
Like, Nostra doesn't really have – like, you kind of miss – like, you don't have the catalog to kind of build these apps.
because you'll build an app and then you don't have any,
there's no music in it to test it.
And we have a bunch of music.
So I think it's just, it's a lot of stuff.
I think it's lost in technical weeds and it's a lot of stuff's broken
that necessarily won't fit together.
Well, I think oftentimes with technology adoption, especially when you talk about open protocols, there are network effects and path dependence that have made a protocol succeed.
It might not have been the most technically elegant protocol.
And I'm speaking hypothetically here, Chad, not specifically, but RSS.
It might not be the perfect technical solution, but it was good enough and it was open.
And there were some early decisions made that drove people's behavior that reinforced the usage.
That's what I mean by part dependence.
And then that led to network effects.
And so if you try to shift it to what you think is the perfect solution.
So I think this is some of the unhelpful conversations that I've heard from the NOSTA folks, which is, oh, no, everything needs to be on NOSTA.
why are we wasting time on a 25-year-old protocol, right?
It's like, let's just bring everything to NOSTA.
Well, RSS is an open protocol,
and you're getting distribution-free out of the box.
Why do you want to reinvent the wheel,
especially if reinventing the wheel means
unraveling path dependence and network effects?
And I think a lot of folks who say these types of things,
like, well, let's put everything on NOSTA,
just don't recognize that part.
So I think there is a large opportunity here.
And frankly, why do we need to solve distribution with NOSTA?
NOSTA is better for identity, reputation, and curation, right?
That comes through your – because your identity is portable,
because your social graph is portable,
your web of trust travels with you across different applications.
So I think that's where NOSTA shines.
And I'm hopeful, and this is not an empty hub, by the way, right?
Part of my interest in this conversation came from my tech side, right?
I have a tech startup called Nosfabrica where we're building Web of Trust tools.
And in thinking about this use case, I think it's a really good opportunity to showcase discovery and curation using Web of Trust, right?
So while I'm hopeful that other people will start building this type of integration between RSS and NOSTA in 2026,
my company is certainly going to look into it, into building the tools and do something about it.
So I think there's good stuff ahead.
I know, Chad, you mentioned the crossing of the, why haven't more people crossed over from the Bitcoin and NOSTA side onto the RSS side?
I think part of it is just not recognizing the network effects and the part dependence that RSS has already built.
Yeah.
Yeah, we definitely do get the this is old technology argument a lot, but it's also tested.
I mean, we added Lightning payments to RSS.
So if we can do that, I think we can build anything really.
And looking at this kind of through the Bitcoin Noster lens,
I think what Fountain does is kind of the way to go
where it's RSS for distribution.
because like if you use RSS, like you can,
like you can be in any of the old podcast apps.
Like you mentioned, um, if people are listening on Apple or Spotify,
you know, you thank them, but maybe try a fountain.
And that there's kind of like my point. Like if you,
like if you put your stuff on an RSS feed,
all of the podcasting apps pick it up.
So you can try to push your Bitcoin Nostra thing,
but you can also have that go out to all the other apps too.
Because really you just want people listening to your show
because that's how you first get them in the door.
They just need to listen, and hopefully they stick around for a few,
and then they can maybe learn more about Bitcoin and Nostra through that.
So Fountain's kind of like RSS for the distribution.
Then Bitcoin is the payment, which, you know, it's your boost and streaming stats everyone knows.
And then it's like the social layer on top.
So if you're in Fountain and you send a boost and you have Nostra tied in, that boost goes to Nostra and people can interact with it there.
and I actually think that's a really cool feature
and I actually, one of the first things
that I did vibe code was a bot
that reads my Lightning node
for the same type of boost
and posts those to Noster
because I wanted something similar
but I didn't want to have to use Fountain.
I wanted to be able to use the other apps.
Is that the chired boost bot?
I think I've seen it repost a few times.
Yeah, the Chad F Boost Bot.
So that's kind of my version of what Fountain does,
but it's just a little bot that is kind of standalone and stuff.
But, yeah, but I think if anyone, like anyone interested in trying to, like,
combine these, I'll say three technologies because it kind of is three
different things even though Nostra and Bitcoin are kind of tied together but I would say kind of
look more into what Fountain's doing because they're from the podcasting 2.0 side that they're
kind of leading the lightning stuff already and the Nostra stuff
but but podcasting 2.0 is also not Nostra not Bitcoin it's like it's podcasting in general so
it's like this huge, it's this huge environment
and we're in this very small corner.
Actually, let's talk about that, Chad,
because a lot of people, when you say podcasting 2.0,
all they think is boosts and lightning right Whereas the change from the old podcast presumably 1 to 2 was far I mean Lightning was one key thing there
but it wasn't the only thing, correct?
That's right.
Okay, so some of the other stuff we added,
like transcripts now are like a standard,
And actually, Apple Podcasts actually has adopted the podcasting 2.0 transcript spec.
So that was kind of a win for us.
So we have transcripts, chapters, which – yeah, your show has chapters.
So that's actually a podcasting 2.0 feature.
like the boost is a feature um oh gosh there's all kinds of there's a bunch of real nerdy stuff
um one thing that's actually cool it's kind of new is something called alternate enclosure
that lets you put a audio and video file in your feed and you can actually switch between them
while you're watching.
So say if you're listening on your phone while you're out,
you listen to the audio, then you get home,
you can switch it back to video, which is kind of cool.
But there's just like a lot of, I mean,
there's just tons of features that the lightning stuff
is just one of those features, kind of.
And how does a change like that happen, right?
So what we're really talking about here is,
when RSS began it was an XML feed
and it had certain elements inside that XML file
because it was an open protocol
it had to be adopted by anyone who
I mean let's just talk about podcasts for now
I remember 20 years back
or maybe even 25 years back
around the time I got introduced to RSS
I was using it to get news
a lot of the news channels would publish news as RSS feeds
and they deprecated that.
But yes, there's an XML file
and all of these different venues have to agree that,
okay, yes, we accept all of these elements in that XML file
so that developers can then build different features
on top of that, right?
And I'm phrasing this simplistically
for a non-technical audience.
Now, for this upgrade from the old podcast
into podcasting 2.0,
what you're saying is this text file, essentially, right,
this XML file that gets passed around with all this information.
We want to add, the upgrade says we want to add these other elements,
such as the lightning boost, such as chapters and transcripts
and this alternative switching between audio and video tag and so on, right?
So someone proposes that.
How does that process work?
Like how do all of these different venues that accept or integrate RSS say,
okay, fine, we accept your changes?
All right, so there's actually a podcasting 2.0 namespace is what it's called, which that's basically just a list of all the podcasting 2.0 features.
so when you make it's made still the same rss feed but you just kind of at the top you just
you just add the bit that says hey this is also a podcasting 2.0 feed and then it's a lot like
nostr it's just it's a bunch of tags and you can actually if you ever get bored and you can actually
opened an RSS feed and I mean it's all human readable so like you'll go down through and you
can see like you'll see like a value tag and that has all the lightning information you'll see like
a chapters tag that has the chapter info the transcripts and all the 2.0 features are just
in the feed and if an app wants to so like an app pulls in that feed and the feed just says hey this
is the this is like the info i have and if your app supports them here's how you here's how you
get that info basically like if you're going to add the lightning stuff here's the lightning
addresses you send to and the percentages and and everything and over time like anyone can
suggest a new feature and this is kind of where the Noster and podcasting 2.0 thing differ
or Noster it almost seems like a wild west like anyone can like propose like a new nip
or whatever and say hey I'm doing this and then someone else is doing something similar and
then you realize you've got like four or five different ways of doing the same thing where with
podcasting 2.0 um we just kind of roll out these updates in like phases and that's kind of slowed
down because we've accomplished a lot of stuff so basically like people just suggest stuff and then
like someone's like hey i'll put that in my rss feed and then one of the apps will say hey i'll
try working on that and then
like once we get
I forget the exact number but I think it's like
if you get one
like if you get a podcaster and an app
kind of both working on the feature
and they get it flushed out then it kind of
moves up to the greater
the greater like podcasting
2.0 community
then it gets like submitted to maybe actually
it in like the official standard so it kind of and like it's all open so it's like anyone can like
submit stuff and it moves up and then
i mean adam curry and dave jones kind of they run the index and they they kind of have final say
but I don't really want to...
Yeah, they kind of do.
I mean, it's their project.
They started it.
They...
They're the Fiat Jeff of RSS.
Yeah.
In some sense.
Yeah, that's...
Yeah.
And then...
Yeah, so it's just kind of...
Yeah, so there's like a...
There is a hierarchy to it,
but that's also how you get all this stuff,
how you actually get to like a spec
so that everyone actually agrees on it.
But in theory, Chad, yes, it would be nice if it got everyone's blessing
and it ended up in the whatever registry or repository that these changes sit in.
In theory, because it's an open protocol, you could just add a new tag.
And as long as an application developer says,
yep, I like that tag, I'm going to build an integration for that,
it's going to work, right?
I mean, I'm just thinking in terms of Nostra.
I can write a NIP.
FiatJav doesn't need to merge it.
I can post the NIP to Nostra Hub now,
NostraHub.io, right, as a custom NIP.
And all I need is one client developer to say,
hey, I like that NIP.
I'm going to build a client that accepts the event kind
and all of that stuff in the NIP.
And then I'm cooking already at that point.
Yeah, and that's, I mean,
And that's the same way the podcasting stuff works.
But since it's an official standard, I guess if enough people like your idea, then it just kind of moves up the chain.
And not everyone has to agree, but if we get enough, it just goes in the list of features.
It's kind of like if you go to, like you mentioned, Nosterhub.io,
you go in there, you see all the NIPs listed,
and their site's just like that for podcasting 2.0 spec.
You go on there, and it's like, hey, here's a list of,
of like the official specs, and here's how you implement them.
And like, like you can add anything.
Like I've got feeds that I've made that have stuff in it that doesn't,
like you can put anything in it you want like you could i mean you can make your own app
and you can make your own feed you can put it i mean you can put it in whatever you want so it's
like it's it's more of like getting the consensus and just getting it like basically just getting
the official stamp on it so and i know we i know like a lot of people like to say the podcast
indexes centralized, which it kind of is.
And we've kind of talked about that over the years.
And I think we're working on spreading it out some, but it being kind of centralized
also makes it robust and kind of sturdy.
So let's talk about that for a second, Chad.
For folks unfamiliar, Podcast Index is really this collection of all the RSS feeds out there, whether it's music or podcasts.
And this is started by Adam Curry and his – I can't remember his partner's name.
It's their website where all they do is they – it's a collection of anyone has an RSS feed, it somehow shows up on Podcast Index.
Is that correct?
Yeah.
And there's actually a button.
you can add your own feed
to the index right on the homepage.
So what,
apart from the fact
that it's just one person
who runs the website,
it's,
That's what you mean by centralization, right?
As opposed to – so in theory that – I mean we're not saying Adam Curry is going to do that.
But he could because it's one person.
If he doesn't like an RSS feed, he could block it.
Is that the concern?
Yeah.
Well, it's – I don't know if it's so much that.
It's just that there's like Dave Jones.
That's kind of the systems administrator.
Like if something were to happen to him, it would be a big issue because he's like the guy running.
He's the guy keeping everything alive.
Because, I mean, it's a database, but like it's also it's run on servers.
And like these feeds also get.
I mean you put a new show out
the feed has to get
checked again
so that the updates get added to the
index because the
like the index is just like the
you know it's like the library
of it so like the index
knows what the latest episode is and all
that stuff so it's not just
like a
static website and there's a lot of
infrastructure
under it
that needs run and updated.
But if that were to, I mean, you can also,
I mean, you can download the podcast index database.
It's like 300 gigabytes or something.
So we're kind of working on like making more copies of it spread out.
But like you also need, like it needs a maintainer or it'll just,
it'll just turn into
it'll just turn into nothing
and it'll be useless in a way
but
so here let me ask you this Chad
because I've been digging into podcast index
as early phase research for this
web of trust curation app
that I
want to build through Nosfabrica
one of the things I noticed
in the RSS feeds is the
actual mp3 or
audio file link right whether it's for
podcasts or for songs.
Now, it's one...
Let's take a song, right?
I think one of the tags is medium.
So if it's medium music,
assuming it's categorized correctly,
it's likely to be a song.
Let's say the format is mp3.
When I look at the feed, it points to...
And I can download the mp3, right?
But it's typically some AWS,
sitting on some AWS server somewhere.
Sometimes it's actually specific.
it says it's on RSS Blue.
At other times, it's hard to tell where it is,
at least from what I've seen.
That is a centralization risk in and of itself, isn't it?
Because what the RSS feed is pointing to
is just one copy of this audio file
sitting on some centralized server somewhere.
Yeah, but you have to...
Yeah, I mean, and that's up to the podcaster,
to the side where they want to keep their feed
and a lot of the, like if you look at one
and it looks like some random link or whatever,
I mean, it could be someone just self-hosting.
I mean, like if you have a website,
you can just park your feed on your own website.
But you mentioned where the files are hosted.
You can actually, like nothing's stopping anyone
from hosting their media file
or even their cover art or whatever
on something like Blossom
and then just putting that in an RSS feed.
And that's actually what caster.me
that Gigi made actually does this.
So if you take someone's end pub,
you put it in that site,
It builds a podcasting 2.0 RSS feed,
and then you put that RSS feed in any podcasting app,
and it works.
But the stuff is, the files are hosted on Noster,
and then the feed's just used to kind of distribute it
and let the apps know where the stuff's at.
Oh, interesting.
So you put your NPUB in,
and it'll look up your metadata
if you have some Blossom servers associated with your endpub,
whatever files they are, they show up in that RSS feed.
Yeah, there's a...
Yeah, so it's...
Yeah, I think it just pulls in, like, MP4s and MP3s.
I forget. I have to look at it.
But, yeah, I've actually helped GG with it a little bit.
So, like, you can...
I mean, you can just host this stuff on Noster
and just put those links in a feed.
And that's actually something we've talked about before,
but it always comes up that it seems that Noster doesn't work well
if you would change something in the feed
because you're going to have to change it
because you're going to mess something up.
It's just inevitable.
And with Blossom, which I don't know a ton about,
but I think I know enough.
But it hashes the file, and then you have a hash of that file.
But if you need to change that file, then that hash changes,
which then like it.
But I mean, that's all like down the road stuff.
But you, like caster.me is kind of fun to play around with,
and it'll pull in people's stuff.
and there's a, I think it's, I forget the exact name.
I think it's Movie Archive is a Nostra profile
that works really well with this,
that it has archive.org hosted media and stuff.
So if you put that feed in a podcast app,
it pulls in all the movies and stuff it posts.
So like a musician could do that.
Like you could make an end pub for your band
and just post your music.
to Nostra and then that could pull it in.
That's kind of like one of the examples of something
that's actually kind of blending the two worlds together
because Gigi has been in the podcasting 2.0 space
since about the beginning.
So he's kind of someone to keep an eye on.
Is this the Gigi, Bitcoin is time, Gigi?
I had no idea.
Yeah, the Gigi.
yeah so he's
he's been
yeah he's helped a lot of this stuff
over the years too
so he's a good one to
he's like a good example
of someone who kind of
understands the Noster and the Bitcoin
and the RSS
side of things
but it's
I don't know
it gets real muddy
it gets real technical
and that kind of turns people away.
But we're also very early in all of this.
So the technical discussions need to happen
because that's how you get stuff to work together.
I think this is a fundamental marketing problem
that folks in Bitcoin and Noster face,
which is, you know, right now I still feel we're in the early adopter phase,
certainly for NOSTA but also for Bitcoin, right?
And it's mostly these incredibly passionate people
whose world revolves around Bitcoin and NOSTA
and they think that anyone they explain this to
needs to understand the tech at the level that they do, right?
So most of Bitcoin and NOSTA evangelism that you see
is people talking deeply about the different elements of the tech and so on.
And the average person, they're out at that point, right,
within less than 30 seconds of a conversation like that.
And I think, and I'm just responding to what you said, right, Chad,
which is these conversations are very technical.
And I think we have to learn, for folks who are trying to push these free,
Essentially, let's just call it freedom tech, right?
Push freedom tech forward.
We have to learn how to segment our audience.
If you're talking to developers, by all means, knock yourselves out.
Talk at whatever technical level you want to.
But if you're trying to sell this idea to the average user, you have to sell them an experience.
You have to talk.
It has to be something emotional.
Like your life is lacking this, and now your life is going to improve by using this, right?
This is the experience that we're going to create for you.
It should never be about the tech because they will run away if it is.
Yeah, but we need to build the tech out more so we can make it easier.
And one of the problems with making stuff too easy is that that tends to centralize stuff.
Because if you get some company coming along saying, hey, we'll do this for you.
and then they go belly up, you're kind of stuck.
So yeah, it's hard to explain,
which is why I don't really,
which is why I stick to more of the
let's see what we can piece together side.
You know, there's Open Mike in the live chat on Zapstream,
and he's making the point that
for this to actually hit for the musicians,
and to be even remotely mainstream,
it has to be painfully simple to join and not technical They have to be able to tell their fans to come here And we had you know through Mike we had Just Loud and Ainsley right before their Minneapolis show
Gosh, that was two years ago now.
Hard to believe.
But it was December 23, 2023.
And, you know, Just Loud was being incredibly polite during one of the segments during that podcast.
But in a very polite way, he said to me, look, I don't care about this stuff.
I don't care about Bitcoin.
I'm just doing this, you know, because I don't like Spotify.
I don't like how they're treating me.
I've been told that this is a better way.
So I'm doing it.
You guys are talking about sats and this and that.
This stuff doesn't interest me.
And he was completely charming about how he said it.
But it was obvious to me back then that musicians, why would they care about the difference between Keysand and LNURL and this and that?
None of that stuff matters to them.
It's how are we changing their lives?
Yeah.
And I see a lot of that too, that people aren't – like the musicians aren't too worried about the Bitcoin side of it and stuff.
But that also needs – that's kind of one of the things I've been kind of harping on lately is that there's really no –
like there's really no Nostra music besides people just kind of like making a post of maybe them playing or it's like a Spotify link or something.
And I think if that stuff was more native to Noster,
it would be easier to find.
Because finding the music and getting it out there
is how you get the artist excited.
Because I've seen that happen.
and then hopefully they stick around.
And I hope maybe bridging more of the RSS side
because that's like structured data.
So you don't have to...
Like if a musician on Noster posts...
Like Suzanne Santo is a good example.
Like she'll post a video like updating people,
but it's kind of hard to see that video if you don't see it on your timeline
because say she posted it a week ago and you're a big fan of her
and you want to see it.
But it might be gone, but where RSS is like it's structured
so you can go back at any time and find her stuff.
And I think that's kind of like where some of the Web of Trust talk comes into
where you can have this structured format of all of your content,
but then use Nostr to make it easier to find, I guess.
And I think, so you said there's no, I'm paraphrasing,
you said, where is the Nostr music?
And to me, it's like, well, does there need to be a thing called Nostr music?
I mean, there's independent music that's out there already, right?
And Podcast Index and there are all these other sources.
And I think Fountain picks up just anything with an RSS feed, I think, is picked up by Fountain Music.
I could be wrong.
Oscar, don't yell at me.
So to me, that's Nostra Music, right?
All Fountain now needs is a discovery layer.
It's got the Nostra baked in for social.
It's got the distribution problem solved because it's picking up RSS.
There's a thin web of trust layer that's missing which just says, look, this is – so you log in with your endpub.
You're all of my – within my web.
And you can make it really interesting here, right?
You can keep it super broad and say, as long as my friends are listening to it, meaning the people I'm following are Nostra, show it to me.
If they've interacted with it in a positive way, whether it's through a boost or a like or a positive comment, put it up on my feed and say, hey, do you want to listen to this?
Your friends are listening.
That's like the broad brush web of trust.
You can make it even contextual, right?
And I think we went back and forth on a thread on Nost a week or so ago when I was talking about this.
And I decided to stop talking about it because the issue with using technical terms is the conversation just dies.
I'm not saying you, you, with you, Chad, but there were others who jumped in and said, what do you mean contextual this?
So I said, you know what, I'm just going to talk in terms of experiences.
You'll find the music you love.
But what I mean by contextual is there's so there's a broad web of trust, which is the people you follow presumably means, you know, they will have some kind of impact on you.
But if you're trying to mimic human interactions, right, even within your friend circle, there'll be one group of friends whose music tastes you trust and another group whose food tastes you trust, right?
And these groups might not overlap entirely.
So that's the context, music, food.
So you can have a subset of your following whose musical tastes you trust and only that gets recommended to you.
And it's not just going to be them, right?
And then their contextual webs are on top of that.
And you can go like three or four levels deep.
That's how the tentacles spread in a targeted way.
And you can surface up music or podcasts that you otherwise wouldn't have heard of,
which you might actually like because it's through a targeted trust layer.
yeah and i agree with that and i think that's it's interesting that you say that if you go to fountain
and find music there and since they have nostr you consider that nostr music
but that music is on an RSS feed
and if Fountain wasn't a podcast app at its core,
you wouldn't see that music,
which is why these Noster music apps I've seen
popped up over the past week or so,
which are really cool to see.
That's why they don't have that same library
because it's...
And this is another issue too.
like people like fountain is a podcast app at its core it's rss it has nostre to it but
like i get we're all excited about nostre so we see nostre fountain we think everything in fountain
is nostre but it's just the social yes layer all that content is rss based so and what's nice about
that is anything you find in fountain like all the fountain music or podcasts or whatever
anyone can build an app to do that same thing like we need more fountains we need more wave
lakes we need more ellen beats we need more stable crafts like we just need we need more
and that was kind of my point with like the like i actually never heard contextual web of trust
until you mentioned it because i was like well i'd barely understand web of trust and now we're
going another layer but i like i like that because one of the things i don't like about
nostr is that i have the same following across everything and i don't want to see everyone
across every app and i think that's kind of where that comes into play but like it's all it's all
rss at the end of the day like it always it always has been and i don't know like it's just funny to
get like the pushback from nostril and bitcoiners about using rss where their favorite podcasting
app fountain uses rss and that's how like it's i don't know like it just gets it gets kind of
weird where it's like oh we want everything on nostril and fountain's this great nostril app
But like if you would – if you pulled out the RSS, I mean maybe they'll add Noster like native stuff down the road.
I don't know.
But they're also – yeah, like they're also a podcast app.
So like they're not just Bitcoin and Noster.
They're also – you can listen to Joe Rogan on there for example.
Yeah, I think my point, Chad, was maybe the distinction doesn't even matter, right?
And it's not, if someone says this,
and when I said Fountain can be considered a Nostra music app,
I didn't mean to say in the sense that,
well, RSS part is irrelevant, right?
What I was trying to say is these two are synergistic.
Synergistic.
The fact that Fountain can incorporate Nostra,
they've already done for social.
You just add a little bit of curation on top of that
using Web of Trust,
and then you have the distribution already solved with RSS.
I think the end goal of both communities has been, I think, resolved,
which is independent musicians have a way of reaching audiences,
potentially monetizing their creation.
And then conversely, audiences have a way of finding music that they actually like
without having to go through a centralized platform
and supporting these platforms and labels too, for that matter.
Yeah.
And the only reason that we even having these conversations is because we all kind of agreed on the Bitcoin part It the other bits that we need to Well see I just don want people to be misled
Like Fountain Host Music now,
and I think it's actually a pretty good deal.
It's like $5 a month,
and they do a lot of the Nostra and RSS stuff.
But if you go over there and you sign up for that
and you think it's going to show up on Noster
and then you go to some Noster music app
and you're not there,
then people are like,
well, where's my stuff?
And it's like, well, it's on an RSS feed.
And I don't know.
But yeah, I think if the app levels,
if a lot of the stuff like behind the scenes
worked better together,
we wouldn't have to worry about this
because you should be able to,
like i mean i guess it depends on what you want to show in your app but like anything that's in
fountain should be able to be found in another app if that app wants to do
i mean you can narrow it down obviously like you don't need everything
like if you just wanted to do certain music or just certain podcasts but you get into this
You get to this point where RSS is hidden, but that's also the technical backbone that needs worked on.
So, Chad, let's hit a brief pause here and switch gears.
It's actually a little past the one-hour mark.
So we're going to switch gears briefly.
we talk a lot about low time preference on the show, that ability to endure the volatility because
you know where the math ends up. So this track is basically the sonic version of that mindset.
It's got this nervous coffee jitters energy in the verses that perfectly captures the anxiety
of the fiat world, and then it just explodes into clarity.
The band is called Lukma No Cavities,
and the track is Everything Will Fall in Its Place.
If you need a mantra for the bear market, this is it.
Headphones up.
It's a morning in the morning, when you wake up before the bell.
It's a feeling in you that keeps you awake, when you're ready for help.
It's a knocking on your temples, it's a pain in your stomach.
When this remains, Jesus your God, you will never go to sleep.
And everything will fall in its place.
Everything will fall in its place
It's a heavy on your chest
Ocean won't decide
It's a click in my heart
It's a shout and true
The echo to the side
Everything will fall in its place
Everything will be alright
Everything will come to an end
It's just a matter of time
guitar solo
When all the thousands of years
I tried to forget
But the mist is still there
When all the thousands of years
That was Everything Will Fall in Its Place
by Look Ma, No Cavities.
I absolutely love the production choice on this.
Did you catch that shift at the 130 mark? It goes from this fragile, clean indie guitar,
sort of like a very early 2000s, and then slams you with that wall of fuzz. A lot of modern music
is overproduced. It's quantized to death. But this, this sounds like a bunch of guys in a garage
just putting in the proof of work. You can hear the strain in the vocals. It's authentic.
And honestly, the message hits home.
We worry about the noise.
We worry about the FUD.
But eventually, everything falls in its place.
TikTok, next block.
So if you like the song and want to support this great band,
hit that rewind button by a couple of minutes
and then hit that boost button.
90% will go to the band.
Chad, have you heard of this band, Lukmar No Cavities?
No, I actually haven't heard that band before, and I was trying to look it up real quick, but didn't quite get to it.
But yeah, that kind of raw, almost like garage band type sound is just kind of like that DIY influence.
Yeah.
Yeah, so there's an interesting discussion going on.
I was catching up on some of the stuff in the live chat on Zap.Stream.
So there's one camp that is talking about how the underlying tech,
and in this case we're talking about RSS and NOSTA,
it would probably be for the best if it was obscured, right,
and the user didn't have to deal with it.
and then there's another camp that's saying
why would we do that?
Why would we want to obscure stuff from people?
You want to teach a man how to fish
as opposed to giving them a fish.
What are your thoughts on that, Chad?
I like both approaches
because I'm in the self-hosted camp
for your RSS and even running your own lightning node
because I think that's important
and people need to have that option.
And we need people to keep that option alive.
But then on the other hand, like I mentioned,
fountain music earlier,
and I'm also in that camp where I'm fine.
I'm fine just paying for a service for a lot of stuff.
And I think there's something in the, see, that's kind of the beauty of all this, like open protocols, is that you can kind of like choose your own adventure.
Like you can sign up for a host and pay them to do everything for you, or you can go full DIY, or you can kind of go in the middle.
But for more of the tech to fall away, that tech needs built first.
And that's kind of why it comes up so often, in my opinion, is that we're still in the building phase.
So it's hard to move that behind the curtain to make a better app if you just can't really.
so on the so there's another good point uh in in the live chat as you said that chat and this
sort of there's a parallel with nostra as well right there's you could go the diy approach
or you could you get a much more white glove client but there is a line at which
the NOSTA client stops being a true NOSTA client,
which is if you don't control your NSEC
and they control it for you.
And I think there's a parallel here
with artists and the RSS feeds.
If the artist doesn't control their RSS feed,
is it really worth the trade-off at that point?
Yeah, I don't.
I think being able to just make changes and stuff too,
because a lot of this stuff does get hidden
in the RSS world.
Like you're just filling out a form, essentially,
and the feed's getting built for you.
But it's like anything.
You can choose your trust level.
But I think that kind of gets overblown with the podcasting stuff.
I don't think it's – I think paying someone to do it for you isn't a bad thing.
and I think people kind of, I don't know, shy away from that in the Bitcoin side.
But the, I don't know.
But a lot of Bitcoiners also use Spotify slash Anchor to host their podcast.
So there's that.
But, you know, it's too, like no one can, you know,
you can't be a purist about everything.
But it's just, you know, I mean, it's your art at the end of the day.
and you choose where you want to put it.
With your podcast you can choose where you host it I just think we need better options all around for people
That's how all this gets built up,
is people making cool stuff
and kind of stealing ideas from each other
and collaborating.
And that's how Podcasting 2.0 came around.
We had a bunch of podcasters and app devs.
and listeners and enthusiasts that kind of all came together,
but we had existing content and apps that we just kind of all came together
and said, hey, we've been wanting this stuff and added it
where Nostra is kind of building from everything from scratch,
so it's a little slower of a burn.
Chad, let's talk about one other topic that came up as I was digging into this potential, well, I mean, this tension that has existed between these two camps, Nostra and RSS, which is Keysend versus LNURL.
So for the non-technical user, right,
we're talking about the Lightning Network
and there's two different ways in which,
well, there's more than two different ways in which,
but KeySend is one way in which you can send a Lightning payment
and then LNURL, which is most popular on Noster, is another way.
So can you, from your experience in the podcasting 2.0 world,
What advantage do you see, if any, that Keysend has over LNURL in Podcasting 2.0?
And then we can talk about how we bridge these two.
A lot like RSS, this all has always been Keysend.
we chose keysend um five years ago because it's it's lighter weight and it's a like a it's a push
payment so instead of like a back and forth between your wallet and the listeners wallet
and everything it just it just sends and maybe it makes it there maybe it doesn't but that's part of
But we actually had, like this has always been a constant debate, even when we started early on.
And we chose Keysend because it worked.
But Fountain and Albie are the only wallets that really support Keysend.
So we chose that path, and we've been using that path all along.
but the wallets that a lot of people use like primal um coin us is a bad example because they've
kind of started adding keysend but it just like any like normal wallet people are using
like doesn't support keysend so there's this issue we run into now where
I'm on your podcast telling people to
support RSS
and once they do
they hit a keysend address that no
wallets really support
outside of
Albi
and that's just kind of how it's always been
but the good thing is
the 2.0 spec
supports
lightning addresses
so you can put
strike
Like Primal, let me see, Cash App Works.
But like a lot of those you can put in your feed,
and most of the apps have updated now to support those,
but the apps still need Albie, and it's –
we're like – we're slowly working on changing it over,
but it's been this way for five years.
So Chad, I'm not a Lightning developer
but I'm just with streaming sats, right?
Yeah.
I can see the benefit of Keysan.
You just send it, right?
You don't have to wait for that handshake.
This is the issue with LNURL, right?
You need an invoice.
So it's like a, that's why it's called a handshake.
but with Keysight, it sounds like you just send it.
And that would work with streaming stats.
Again, maybe you spend more time thinking about this, Chad.
It sounds like an absolute nightmare with LNURL
if you want to stream stats for a podcast.
Yeah, because currently I think a lot of apps started batching.
So instead of sending it every minute, it's like every 10 minutes.
and Oscar's also kind of been working on this,
but like the, so like the boostograms,
which is just a boost with a message in it,
the message part gets sent along with the key send payment.
So if you switch away from key send to LNURL,
that message needs somewhere to go.
And that's also an issue we have.
so it's like
like it needs
I guess it needs to change
and like we're kind of working on it
but like
you can also change it in your feed
and
I mean
I mean your podcast has
keysend addresses
and
most
most of them do
and it's always been keysend
but it
like it works well but we have this onboarding issue where we tell people to either use fountain
because they give you a wallet or you have to go through the hoops to spin up
albie hub which albie used to be free and it was great because you could just get a wallet there
but they changed their business model so we're we're kind of stuck and the lightning stuff's
kind of been dead in podcasting 2.0 for the last year and a half and it's just one of these issues
that i don't know needs more people kind of working on it so i know yeah good let's i want to
understand this a little better chat what is the typical onboarding process for an artist right i
mean these i'm just going to assume an artist like from what my conversations they're not technical
people right they're craftsmen in their in their crafts women in their art and you know someone's
their agent or someone's told them hey there's this new way do you want to sign up get get away
from spotify so they're like okay fine i'll sign up how do they get like do they have to get an
How was it before Albee, Ruckpult, not Ruckpult, but they got rid of their custodial service and moved to the sovereign Albee hub model?
How was it then?
And then what happened?
How is it now, the onboarding process?
Let me think.
So like you've always had like Wavelake's always been an option because they do everything for you for a 10% fee.
So it's no cost to you.
You just you upload your stuff and if you get any boost in, they take 10%, which is a fine model.
but see since music is so new like this has only been around for like two years
in the podcasting 2.0 space so like not a lot of hosts support it like fountain just started
doing um like kind of rss stuff tailored towards musicians so you sign up there give them five
a month, they do all the stuff
for you. RSS
Blue used to be a good option
and
but they
kind of got absorbed into
Fountain now
and even with like RSS Blue
like you would go, like you would get a
Fountain wallet
because this was still
when it was 100% key send. So you get a
Fountain wallet or you get the
free Albi one and you would just
plug that into the website.
so it's kind of
like it was still like you would just choose a host
which I think it's still how a lot of podcasters
probably do it nowadays
they probably sign up for
like you sign up for a service
and it says hey what's your
lightning address you plug it in
it's probably a fountain one
just because that's what everyone uses
but since this was all
since this was all so new
a lot of it's been kind of pushed towards like self-hosting which is a huge
um like a huge burden for artists because it's got to be a non-starter there right right chad i
mean these are musicians we're talking about yeah and that's why in the early days it was
a lot of diehards
or a couple people
that were willing to do it
for these musicians
because we would say,
hey, just go and get this
free Albie wallet
and we'll do everything else for you.
We'll just take a small percentage
because we believe in this enough
and we just need music uploaded.
So a lot of us like kind of
onboarded just friends and stuff just so we had a catalog.
We're like, hey, we'll do it all.
All you have to do is go get this free Albie address.
And that worked okay until Albie changed.
And then you're like, hey, now you need to go get this fountain address.
and anyone who did the onboarding then had to go change all those feeds
from the albie address to the fountain one now and a lot of those still aren't changed honestly
because it's it's a nightmare but but you're we were in control so it was like that's what we did
but basically the onboarding still sucks.
There's Wave Lake Fountain or host your own feed somewhere with a wallet,
but this is like, I don't know.
It's all still so new that it's hard to even like,
Um, it's, see, like, we don't have a, like, we don't have a easy path because there is no real easy path.
I mean, I guess the easy path would be sign up for Wave Lake or pay Fountain $5 a month or kind of go into the Wild West and figure this out.
and was the Wavelake
wallet
I didn't realize that supported Keysand
yeah
I don't
I don't know how Wavelake
works
on the back end too much
but you upload to Wavelake
they actually make a RSS
feed
that goes to podcast index
and that's why Wavelake hosted stuff
shows up in Fountain
it's because
they make the feed for you
but they also have their own API
that you can use that
I don't know anything about
and I think that
gets around the
key send stuff, I'm not too sure
but I think
you just put any wallet in
to their site and they just
they get your payment
they take their 10% and then
the 90 gets split up how you want
but I'm not familiar enough to know how that works on the back end.
But it's, I don't know, it just gets muddy and it's hard to.
Well, that's the thing, right?
The devs need to figure this stuff out.
The devs need to figure it out and then create experiences
that make onboarding easier and just general day-to-day use,
easier for the end users,
whether it's the musicians or podcasters they're onboarding
or the consumers and listeners on the other side.
And I don't think we're quite there yet,
but this sounds like an incredibly solvable problem to me.
Building user experiences is not that difficult.
If the guys at X and Spotify and others could figure out user experience,
then why can't honey badgers of this community figure it out?
What about Nostra Wallet Connect?
Has that helped mitigate some of these disconnects between Keysend and LNURL?
No, because the feeds still have Keysend addresses in them.
We've got apps that we added Nostra Wallet Connect to, but you still need an Albi wallet.
so it's kind of
a non-starter
like you can
you can hook up
your Primal
wallet
and it just
it just fails
because it doesn support Keysend so it I don know I don know what the path forward is but I think we just need people kind of looking at the problem
because it's all in like a transition period now.
But I don't know.
Like I think the onboarding stuff could be pretty easy.
And the reason we don't have better stuff in like the podcasting 2.0 side for onboarding is because no one really wants to host anyone's stuff for them without like being a company yourself just because from like it's just it's not worth it.
I think that's kind of where Nostra could come in with something like Nostra.build or the other services to just host the stuff because you host it somewhere and then you put it on a feed and a lot of people can ingest it then.
are there any lightning developers
who are seriously paying attention to this
this problem
um
albie
that's about it
well albie and fountain
but fountain has
their own wallet
that they pay for
so that's
so they run their own
and like albie's been here
since the beginning.
And I don't know.
We just get told Keysan's dead,
which I don't know.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't,
but we're still all using it,
whether we know it or not.
And it's a mismatch between the wallets.
So it's like taking your credit card
to a cash-only business.
you know it's like i'm i'm sorry i can't i can't help you
right it's all just i don't know it's all just kind of part of trying to
just getting more eyes on the problem i mean key sound is working right i don't understand it at a
technical enough level i've read people say it has its limitations i i i can't assess that but
I mean, we get paid.
Our Fountain wallets are our key send.
Although they work with both, right?
Like I can send from my – I've transferred many times from my Fountain wallet to my Primal wallet.
So that's interesting.
I guess I should ask Oscar that, how he pulled that off.
Well, see, they – Fountain on the back end uses Zebedee or ZBD, whichever you want to call it.
So they have, they pay X number a month for that backend that handles Keysend and LNURL.
So they're able to kind of see, they're able to use whatever.
And that's also a little bit of the issue is that like Fountain's always supported Keysend and we've always used Keysend.
And so when I'm on your podcast, you know, telling people to, hey, we need RSS stuff.
And then they're like, hey, this doesn't work, but it works in Fountain.
It's like, well, yeah, Fountain's, you know, paying a couple hundred dollars a month for, you know, to be able to host wallets for people.
There's kind of like, yeah.
And like the Fountain, I guess when it gets weird because like Fountain's made it easy for people.
But then, like, if you want to do a Fountain alternative,
there's, like, there's all this stuff in the back end
that kind of gets hidden that you're like,
oh, this kind of has some issues with it.
Well, that's the thing, right?
Like, doing all of this stuff non-custodially
is infinitely harder.
I think how Fountain achieves it as you were saying that Chad it kind of clicked for me It just they map the sats that come in and key send gets mapped to the LNURL database somehow right
So the balance does.
So that's how they can handle both.
The incoming through boosts and the streaming sats, those come in as key send.
And then if I want to send out to Primal, I'll say, fine, I have a backend mapping.
so you could just, you know,
we'll send those stats as LNURL.
And I think, look, it's a trade-off, right?
Like you were talking about this earlier.
And I would even say the smart trade-off Fountain has made
is, look, by going fully custodial with our wallet,
we can do this, and if people trust us, they'll use us.
And I trust, you know, they're friends of mine,
so I have no issues with using Fountain.
If someone says, well, I don't have that relationship
with Oscar and Davidas and the other guys,
so I don't know them.
I'd rather have a fully sovereign,
non-custodial wallet.
I don't think it's possible
just to map a key sent payment
to an LNURL payment.
Yeah.
We just, a lot of us that are kind of working on this,
we just use AlbiHub.
Like I run my own Lightning Node
that accepts key send addresses,
but Albie gives me a get Albie address.
So kind of the one thing that's kind of cool
that I wish got used more
is that there's actually like a lookup
for this stuff on the back end.
So I can put chadf at getalbie.com in a feed
and the app can hit that address
and find my LNURL payment information and my keysend information.
So it can look at it and say, hey, keysend's easier.
Let's do keysend.
Or I don't do keysend, so I only have to do LNURL.
So there's like – really what would fix a lot of this is if we just had a way
to put like multiple addresses in your feed.
So you could be like, hey, here's my keysend one.
If you don't do keysend, here's, you know, my fountain one or my primal.
But we don't have that option.
But then again, anyone can put, you can put a primal address in your feed
and it'll work just fine.
But you have to know you have a feed and you have to know you can do that.
And here we go in this big circle again.
But there's a lot of us podcast nerds that really like this stuff and try to figure it out.
But the more we try to bridge this stuff, we just keep hitting dead ends.
so we're like all right we're gonna build we didn't want music apps we're gonna build music
apps right now using what we have since we need better apps and then pick up pieces along the way
which is kind of what i mean which is what podcasting 2.0 is i mean it's just
you know we've got this i don't know which way we'll call it some old hot rod or a rap rod or
whatever and we're like going we're going to swap meets and kind of seeing what'll be cool
and we're like hey that'll you know that'll work we can you know put that piece here and that piece
there and i don't know just try to build something cool cool what chad uh i know we're at the hour
and a half mark um so we should be wrapping up what the any last words you'd want to leave uh
audience with? Where can they find your work? Any calls to action?
I would say if you want to kind of see what yeah i would say check out stablecraft k dot app or there another app too that um sir libre and i kind of been working on
that's v for the number four v music.com and that's kind of our our different takes
on the music stuff and i don't know like i think i think rss is good i'll have the sorry uh chad
i'll have both of those up in the show notes for folks listening yeah yeah i think we just need
just seeing more people kind of tinkering around with stuff under the hood and like we need more
fountains we need more wave lakes we need more stable crafts we need more more whatever and even
if you don't want to use rss if you want to just do fully noster music i mean i think that's cool
too because that's really what like we just want artists to be able to um we just want them like
be able to be in control of their art and get, you know,
the direct support from their listeners and try to break them out of this
Spotify or Apple music chain that they're kind of in.
So we just, we just need to build cool stuff and hopefully get some musicians
that'll try it out and tell their fans.
And then we just go from there, but we need people.
We need people hearing the music first before we can scale.
Yeah, that is for sure.
And I think for Nostra developers who are trying to reinvent the wheel,
I know you said it's cool chat.
Of course it's cool.
People can do whatever they want, right?
But my suggestion would be don't reinvent the wheel.
You have an existing open distribution layer.
So look into how you can leverage that
and then use Nostra for what it's good at,
which is identity, reputation, curation, and discovery.
Well, Chad, thank you for taking the time to educate me more than anyone else,
and then, of course, our audience as well.
I think this is super helpful to understand some of the history here,
and more than that, how we can build bridges between these two worlds.
I think we need to have more conversations like this and build out Freedom Tech in a complementary way that helps creators connect to audiences in a sovereign way.
So thank you all for listening.
The live stream chat was incredibly lively.
I'm sorry I couldn't get to all the comments.
It was scrolling a little too fast for me.
and then if you are listening to the podcast i hope you're doing it on a podcasting 2.0 app
like fountain and if you are on fountain i hope you hit that subscribe button your support and
generosity goes a long way in keeping this podcast ad free and folks i as we're entering the new year
I'm going to be thinking about some new ideas for the show.
We have our flagship show today, Friday.
But I am thinking of introducing under the Pleb Chain Radio umbrella,
a more technical show on Web of Trust,
and then maybe a more chill music show,
music and relaxed conversation.
But stay tuned. I'm just thinking that through.
I'll put it in a blog post.
long-form article and shoot that out.
Would love to hear your feedback.
But yes, the reason I bring this up is
2026, expect more things from Plep Chain Radio.
Thank you all for listening,
and we'll see you again next week.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.