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Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses

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on the intersection of Nostra and Bitcoin protocols.

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Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current

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thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,

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doers, and plebs.

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All right, we are live.

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Welcome gentle plebs to the lightning-laced airwaves. Today is Friday the 22nd of August and it is 4.04pm on the east coast of the United States at the time of recording.

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This is episode 126 of Plep Chain Radio and we have a fun one for you today. Short Fiat, creator of Fanfares and author of a highly anticipated manifesto on the new internet is here to tell us all about that.

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and a reminder folks if you are listening to this show on apple or spotify first of all thank you

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for listening but i would urge you to hit pause and switch over to the fountain podcasting app

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where you can earn some sats and support the value for value revolution as you listen

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and while you're there we would appreciate it if you hit that subscribe button

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that will open up access to bonus content for you.

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This show is streamed live on Zap.Stream

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and any other Nostra client

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that supports streaming such as Amethyst and Nostra.

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NQW, you have been paying attention

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to Bitcoin and Nostra culture in the last week.

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What have you witnessed?

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Avi, I just checked on Fountain app again

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And there we are live now.

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So this is a thing.

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I'm super stoked about that portion that we can, we can be live via another client.

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You know, cause not no stir and amethyst and, you know, those kinds of social media first

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clients, those Twitter replacement clients were, you know, that was the first of it.

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But now we're actually in a, a client where people go to, to consume a hundred percent

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consume audio and video and kind of get your 40 hours per week in. So I think that's, I can't

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stress how much I love that. So you're telling me, QW, that I need to update my intro script

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to include Fountain. Well, that's what made me think of it when I started listening to you.

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And I'm like, wait a second. And so I pulled up the app and had to check it out. So yeah,

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there might be an update. And eventually, you know, Avi, we just don't even have to name which

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ones are on because it's just everything. It's just hyper-Gnostification. That's right.

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When hyper-Gnostification, Avi? Well, our guests will let us know fairly soon.

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So secondly, the V-logs, Avi. So apparently, Nostris popularized V-logs so much that we actually

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now put a hyphen there and it's a V-log. So it's not that far away from GULAG, the way you say it.

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And the more you post on there, on Nostra and your V-log, I would say there's a pretty good

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chance you have a better chance of getting into a GULAG. It's just a matter of time, right?

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I don't know if I'm ready to bite on this new trend yet, KW.

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I did see our buddy Richard Greaser from the Bugle. He did one. Maybe he did a few, but I just saw one last night and he's got his mask on. He's got some video in the background. I mean, he's definitely going cypherpunk with it. So it is something where, you know, you don't necessarily have to dox yourself. You can still participate.

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I have not gotten that far

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but it is definitely not going away

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and I think they're starting to build

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clients around these

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vlogs and maybe it's

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similar to a TikTok, I don't know

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but you can

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rest assured it's about 80%

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dudes, some with their shirt off

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just giving you a piece of their mind

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with their video

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It's an important cultural

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phenomenon, how else

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would the culture permeate if it wasn't

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for shirtless men ranting at a camera.

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Well, and it's not just the jungles anymore.

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You know, these are out in the fields.

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They're out.

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I mean, it's really, I think,

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the naked jungle people probably started this.

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So shout out to the NJPs and the Primal House.

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Yes.

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And secondly, BitChat.

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Just updated today for me on the App Store

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or, you know, maybe 10 hours ago.

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But it's getting more and more.

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So it's integrated geocaching, caching, or just basically geohashing.

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Hashing, yeah.

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Hashing.

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So essentially, you can find, it's opening up the discoverability.

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And it's also more Nostra integrated.

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So whatever that is, I'm still yet to find anything, any use for it.

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But things are being rolled out.

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maybe Jack's playing 4G, 4D chess and I have no idea what's going on. I'm still waiting to see.

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I want to participate, Avi. How do I get, how do I get a friend on there?

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Yeah, this is a bit of a curve ball that happened, at least I discovered today at about 5am in the

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morning, my time I woke up and I saw something on Nostra that said, GeoHash teleportation now

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available on bitchat.

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So geohashes, for folks who are

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wondering, it's a scheme.

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It's a schematic

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by which you can map

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different locations

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on the planet using alphanumeric

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strings. And it's all

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deterministic, right? But the more

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characters you use, the more you zoom

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into the map. So it's basically the map is

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broken into grids, right?

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The longer your character string,

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the smaller the grid

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gets until you can get to a super

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a specific location. I think if you get to 10 or 11

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characters long, you can practically

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have a single house,

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the geohash of it. And it's

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a hexadecimal, I think

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it's hexadecimal string

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that does that.

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So this update...

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Avi, at 5am you were

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reading about this?

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Yeah, I do these things.

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Did you get your coffee in?

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Oh yeah, I had my, right after my espresso,

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I dove right into

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geohash. The hexadecimal geohashing?

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The hexadecimal geohash teleportation.

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Actually, don't quote me on the hexadecimal.

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It looks like a hexadecimal string.

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I'm not actually sure.

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Sounds like a show title.

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We're winning now.

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But so, you know, it's alphanumeric.

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And the fewer characters you have, you know, the bigger your square is.

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So someone said, let's go to 21M, right?

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And that's somewhere off the coast of New Zealand.

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and everyone had teleported into 21,

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you know, 21 million because of Bitcoin, right?

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And there were about, when I joined in the morning,

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there were about 12 people in there.

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Callie, someone who claimed to be Jack Dorsey.

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Now, later on, they posted a screenshot

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of that very chat.

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So I guess that is proof it was Jack Dorsey.

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And a handful of others.

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And it was just, you know, goofing around

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like we used to in the early days of Nostra.

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Fun stuff.

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Anybody drop any invoices?

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Nuts.

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They're dropping nuts.

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Just trying to relive the glory days of the great Jack Hatcheting.

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Yeah.

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The Jacketing.

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So that's really it.

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You're being inundated with V-logs,

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and the flavor of the week is definitely the BitChat release.

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That's it.

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We need some more cultural.

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I don't know if there's anything going on out there, but I'd love to know.

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If there's anything out there coming up, shoot me a DM and I'd love to promote it.

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Excellent.

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And then for our sermon today, QW,

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the fiat world runs on the attention economy.

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Eyeballs for rent, outrage for sale,

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truth outsourced to algorithms with a quarterly target.

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Clicks are cheap.

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Bots are plentiful.

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Clout is a costume.

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We choose a different altar.

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In a reputation economy, proof of work is personal.

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Your word is signed by your keys.

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Your deeds are time-chained by memory.

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And your promises settle in lightning.

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Noster is the commons where notes outlive trends and zaps measure gratitude.

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not gullibility. Web of trust means the graph isn't bought. It's earned one honest interaction

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at a time. Attention chases the loud. Reputation follows the consistent. Sats flow to signal.

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Bitcoin is the base layer that refuses to lie. Lightning is the handshake that clears in

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milliseconds. Noster is the town square where pseudonyms carry weight because receipts beat

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reach. Followers inflate, reputations compound, virality decays, integrity accrues. Don't trust

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verify was never cynicism. It's love for reality. Verify the code, the custody, the character.

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KYC, but make it know your character

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Bring your own keys, bring your own ethics

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Be sovereign, then be social

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The attention economy rewards what pops

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The reputation economy rewards what holds

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What holds wins

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Less theater and more truth

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Smaller promises and instant settlements

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Merit gets zapped, not marketing

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You are the node your friends can route through

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When the world goes noisy

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When the lights flicker on the clout carnival

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Only two things will remain

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The sats you kept and the name you kept clean

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Stack both

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And with that, QW, we have a man

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We have a guest

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who can speak about this far more eloquently and in detail than I ever can.

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One of the strongest guest names we've had.

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One, if not the most, the strongest guest name, Short Fiat.

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Welcome to Plebschain Radio, sir.

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Thank you, Avi. Thank you, QW. It's very nice to be here.

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Yes, hell yeah.

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I wish Avi would have a cool name like yours.

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He went with the full docs and you know it just doesn have the edge that I was looking for in a co Indeed So Shat Fiat you know to the extent that you want to share tell us how

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you got here today. I know there's an announcement you want to make, but before

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we get there, what was your journey like to Nostra, to Bitcoin? What led you down the rabbit hole?

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Well, I guess I actually bought some Bitcoin back in 2013 without really knowing what it was.

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It was a kind of an exciting new market that appeared to be going up quickly.

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I actually bought right at the top of the 2013 bull market and then watched it crash from $1,000 all the way down to about $1,50.

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and I kind of, I really lost focus on it

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and actually lost my keys of those original Bitcoin

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that I bought, which was unfortunate,

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but it's not an unusual story.

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I think quite a lot of people have actually lost their keys

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that got in that early because we, yeah,

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it was quite sort of flaky at that point

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buying a local bitcoins.com.

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And yeah, it was a very different world back then.

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But yeah, I spent more time looking at it later on

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in years that came and started to see it

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as a real potential alternative currency.

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Whereas at the beginning, it did look a bit like a Ponzi scheme, to be fair.

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And I wasn't completely convinced by it.

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I just kind of jumped in for a bit of a punt and a bit of a play.

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But yeah, over time, I learned more about it.

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I learned more by reading books, by talking to people, by going to conferences.

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and I slowly converted it from being the classic price goes up person

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to ultimately being a believer and seeing it as a potential to change the world.

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So I stayed for the revolution.

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And from there, I suppose, as I understood more about it,

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I started to see that we could build new systems using Bitcoin,

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particularly from the point of view of micropayments.

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I think that was what really kind of drew me in there from sort of 2019 onwards.

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I understood that there was potential to have a currency that would have very low transaction costs.

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And that's what been one of the challenges on the Internet from the beginning is using credit cards, have significant minimum transaction fees on them, which has made micropayments very difficult, virtually impossible.

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so yeah I mean spent a little bit of time in the shitcoin space as many Bitcoiners did and

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eventually figured out that Bitcoin was the only one that was genuinely decentralized really can't

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be taken away from you genuinely is limited in supply and I think above all the community around

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Bitcoin is much much stronger than anything you'll see in any other cryptocurrency.

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On the community point, what is your theory for it? Is it that it's held together by a strong ideology in Bitcoin, which you don't necessarily find in some of these other cryptos?

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I personally don't think it's ideology

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I think it's understanding

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I think if you read enough about Bitcoin

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and spend enough time thinking about it

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you come to the inevitable conclusion

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that it is the only one that actually has any real value

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and it takes quite a long time to get there

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to be honest with you

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my opinion is that every shitcoiner

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is basically a Bitcoin

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and it hasn't yet figured it out

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I think that's really

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I think it's Jack Dorsey who talks about the horseshoe

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where you start off with Bitcoin

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and then you get distracted by the excitement of the faster moving prices in the other currencies

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and start exploring the kind of use cases that they put out there.

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And then ultimately you end up back at Bitcoin.

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So, yeah, there's been a real kind of narrative arc, though, when you think about it.

241
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At the beginning, Bitcoin wasn't, the miners weren't charging transaction fees.

242
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So it was effectively a micropayment currency at that point.

243
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And people like Roger Ver were going around to shops and persuading them to accept Bitcoin as a currency.

244
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But once the block space was filled, they needed to start charging transaction fees.

245
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And then it became too expensive to be a micropayment currency.

246
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And then from sort of 2015 onwards, Lightning was in development, whilst some other currencies out there, like Ripple, for example, were saying, look, you know, we're a micropayment currency because our transaction fees are lower.

247
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but the only way they achieve that is by being less secure, by being centralized.

248
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So it took Bitcoin a long time together in terms of actually delivering on that dream of micropayments.

249
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And now that we're there, you know, I think you could say since sort of 2022,

250
00:16:32,512 --> 00:16:41,372
there's been quite a reliable set of Bitcoin Lightning wallets that you can use to make fast and cheap transactions.

251
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And so now we have the potential to really deliver on that.

252
00:16:44,612 --> 00:16:53,332
And then once you add into that NOSTA with Bitcoin Lightning integrated, it really is a really amazing space for development, in my opinion.

253
00:16:55,152 --> 00:17:11,612
You mentioned 2022, which was an inflection point for a lot of folks, especially a lot of folks listening to this podcast, and indeed who are on this podcast, QW myself, which is NOSTA happened in the latter half of that year.

254
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Was that when you fell down the NOSTA rabbit hole as well?

255
00:17:16,012 --> 00:17:19,472
I got down the NOSTA rabbit hole in 23.

256
00:17:20,052 --> 00:17:24,572
Yeah, we were looking at building a micro-payments application.

257
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And once I saw NOSTA with Bitcoin Lightning integrated, that for me was the real aha moment where I thought, yes, this is exactly what we need to build on.

258
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Because it gives you the ability to publish content and get paid for it in Bitcoin Lightning micro-payments.

259
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So that was the moment for me that NOSTA was, as far as I was concerned, is the next layer of the internet.

260
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Love it. So you have, I believe you have an announcement to make. What is it? There are people waiting with bated breath.

261
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yes so today we are officially uh launching um fanfares which is the app that we've built

262
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so i have a small team of developers we've been overall working about three and a half years on

263
00:18:17,292 --> 00:18:23,852
this project but yeah we've really been very much on the kind of uh nosta train for about a year and

264
00:18:23,852 --> 00:18:31,272
a half now and um yeah we've reached a point where we have a good mvp that's fully functional

265
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and it enables people to publish content.

266
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So that might be audio books, podcasts, music.

267
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At some point, we'll be doing videos.

268
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Not too long away, that'll be coming as well.

269
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But you can publish those items of content

270
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as Noster notes that are encrypted.

271
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So when you upload them through FanFares,

272
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they will be automatically encrypted.

273
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And then people that want to gain access to that content

274
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can zap the specified amount of Bitcoin,

275
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which will create a decryption key

276
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that only they have access to with their NSEC,

277
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and they then have the ability to access that content forever.

278
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So it's ownership of digital content, ownership by the creator,

279
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and the ability to sell copies that people can own as NOSTA notes.

280
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Is it fair to think of Fanfares as a NOSTA client,

281
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or is it more of a protocol that sits on top of NOSTA?

282
00:19:27,592 --> 00:19:29,412
That's a very good question, yeah.

283
00:19:29,412 --> 00:19:45,672
I mean, it's an app at the moment, so it acts as a NOSTA client, but it's potentially a proof of implementation for a protocol that can sit on top of NOSTA and Lightning.

284
00:19:45,672 --> 00:20:04,412
So the answer is both. It is a client. But if the wider community of Nostra and Bitcoin choose to adopt the code that we've written, and it will be open source, we've been developing in StealthMade, but the code will be open source because we do want acceptance from the community.

285
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If the other Nostra clients out there adopt our code, then it effectively becomes another layer of the protocol.

286
00:20:12,332 --> 00:20:20,252
how normie friendly will fanfares be or is it kind of something you're building this

287
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product currently just for those familiar with maybe nostril login wallet connect zapping

288
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all those things that come with kind of our culture yeah i mean that's a very important

289
00:20:34,612 --> 00:20:40,112
thing we've built it to try to be as normie friendly as possible so the way you would be

290
00:20:40,112 --> 00:20:44,852
introduced to fanfares is someone would send you a link of some content that they might have created

291
00:20:44,852 --> 00:20:49,352
themselves or they might have discovered it from somebody else and they're recommending it to you

292
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when you click on that link you go to our web app so we're not in the app store so we can't be

293
00:20:53,972 --> 00:21:00,412
constrained through that bottleneck but effectively you're on our website which appears like a web

294
00:21:00,412 --> 00:21:07,852
app on your phone from there you'll be able to play the free part of the content and then by

295
00:21:07,852 --> 00:21:12,012
if you want to continue beyond the free part

296
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a lightning wallet will pop up on your phone

297
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if you have a lightning wallet

298
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you can then make a payment that gives you access to the rest of it

299
00:21:18,192 --> 00:21:20,192
so the most kind of

300
00:21:20,192 --> 00:21:22,072
non-normy part of that is actually having

301
00:21:22,072 --> 00:21:23,832
a lightning wallet with some lightning in it

302
00:21:23,832 --> 00:21:25,332
once you've done that

303
00:21:25,332 --> 00:21:27,552
using the app itself is

304
00:21:27,552 --> 00:21:30,212
relatively simple

305
00:21:30,212 --> 00:21:31,932
it should be

306
00:21:31,932 --> 00:21:33,952
it should be possible for anyone

307
00:21:33,952 --> 00:21:35,532
to use it really in practice

308
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and it may be something we need feedback on

309
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in terms of messaging within the app as time goes on

310
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but we've always had that in mind

311
00:21:44,492 --> 00:21:45,672
we want anyone to be able to use it

312
00:21:45,672 --> 00:21:48,732
they don't have to create a new Nostra identity

313
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they get one as they come into the app

314
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so they're automatically allocated a Nostra identity

315
00:21:53,012 --> 00:21:55,032
if they're already a Nostra user

316
00:21:55,032 --> 00:21:57,552
they have the option to put their Nostra ID in there

317
00:21:57,552 --> 00:22:00,552
and use their normal Nostra identity

318
00:22:00,552 --> 00:22:08,332
but essentially it's tried to make the whole thing as simple as just a few clicks

319
00:22:08,332 --> 00:22:14,232
to get from receiving a link to coming to our app to making a payment

320
00:22:14,232 --> 00:22:17,432
and having access and ownership of the whole content.

321
00:22:18,532 --> 00:22:21,852
And what we would hope is that anyone that comes into Fanfares that way

322
00:22:21,852 --> 00:22:26,772
will become a new Nostra user because that's where they've experienced

323
00:22:26,772 --> 00:22:30,352
the ability to buy content without the platforms.

324
00:22:30,552 --> 00:22:41,052
now short fiat uh fanfaz existed welcome back by the way avi yeah wi-fi kicked me out

325
00:22:41,052 --> 00:22:46,732
just noticed you disappeared i'm sure your heart dropped and now you're trying to figure out what's

326
00:22:46,732 --> 00:22:56,672
going on as a brief wifi just appreciate for you uh you you launched uh fanfaz in a previous

327
00:22:56,672 --> 00:22:58,732
iteration, right? And I understand

328
00:22:58,732 --> 00:23:00,472
that this is like the

329
00:23:00,472 --> 00:23:02,872
I guess the latest version

330
00:23:02,872 --> 00:23:05,232
or a non-beta

331
00:23:05,232 --> 00:23:06,852
version, is that fair? Because

332
00:23:06,852 --> 00:23:09,032
a previous version of FanFest did exist

333
00:23:09,032 --> 00:23:10,732
prior to this, is that correct?

334
00:23:11,112 --> 00:23:12,932
Yes, yeah, yeah, and we're

335
00:23:12,932 --> 00:23:15,072
very appreciative for Pleb Chain Radio

336
00:23:15,072 --> 00:23:16,892
and for the Once

337
00:23:16,892 --> 00:23:18,812
Bitten podcast for helping us test that.

338
00:23:19,392 --> 00:23:21,072
That one was not particularly

339
00:23:21,072 --> 00:23:34,564
easy to use it was a kind of proof of concept that we could get the basic functionality there but it was pretty complicated to kind of log in and it was definitely not normally friendly So the route we taken now is that the solution has to be normally friendly

340
00:23:35,424 --> 00:23:41,624
It has to be as easy to use as possible. And there's additional functionality that was not

341
00:23:41,624 --> 00:23:47,124
there with that original implementation. So we've kind of come a long way and it's been

342
00:23:47,124 --> 00:23:51,304
over a year of really kind of hard development.

343
00:23:51,484 --> 00:23:53,084
The team have been working incredibly hard

344
00:23:53,084 --> 00:23:56,124
and developing in the Nostra space is difficult.

345
00:23:56,424 --> 00:23:58,144
You know, you don't have a lot of the kind of tooling

346
00:23:58,144 --> 00:24:01,784
that you get in more developed environments.

347
00:24:02,144 --> 00:24:04,424
It really is a case you have to build a lot of things from scratch.

348
00:24:05,344 --> 00:24:07,624
But yeah, we've built a very sound product now.

349
00:24:07,744 --> 00:24:10,464
I think Arkenox, our CTO, has been very diligent

350
00:24:10,464 --> 00:24:12,004
about building a solid foundation

351
00:24:12,004 --> 00:24:13,504
so that when we need to make changes,

352
00:24:14,144 --> 00:24:15,224
it's all going to be possible.

353
00:24:15,224 --> 00:24:18,064
and it's something that can be built on top of

354
00:24:18,064 --> 00:24:21,224
without going back and regretting the kind of shortcuts

355
00:24:21,224 --> 00:24:22,264
that we took at the beginning.

356
00:24:22,504 --> 00:24:26,044
So, yeah, it's been a hard and long process

357
00:24:26,044 --> 00:24:26,964
to get to where we are.

358
00:24:27,084 --> 00:24:29,524
But from my point of view, it's an absolute relief

359
00:24:29,524 --> 00:24:31,664
to actually have the working product now

360
00:24:31,664 --> 00:24:33,824
because I've been talking about it for a long time

361
00:24:33,824 --> 00:24:37,084
and finally I can show people this is how you use it.

362
00:24:38,664 --> 00:24:43,204
Now, there is something else that you are releasing.

363
00:24:43,204 --> 00:24:50,244
if you haven't released already, it's coming very soon. That ties in very nicely into Fanfares.

364
00:24:50,604 --> 00:24:56,124
And this was the manifesto for a new internet that I referred to at the very beginning of the show.

365
00:24:56,244 --> 00:25:02,784
Now, I have had the honor of reviewing it, Short Fiat. I think I can admit that now.

366
00:25:03,944 --> 00:25:11,344
Well, it's too late. I've done it already. And it is a remarkable book. I think one of the first

367
00:25:11,344 --> 00:25:16,584
things I said to you when I read it is this is this reads like a manifesto for the new internet

368
00:25:16,584 --> 00:25:22,544
now those weren't your words those were my words after reading that book do you want to talk a

369
00:25:22,544 --> 00:25:31,964
little bit about that yeah yeah the book I have spent the last sort of eight months writing and

370
00:25:31,964 --> 00:25:36,124
it really has been the bait of my life to be honest with you because I don't think writing is

371
00:25:36,124 --> 00:25:41,584
one of my natural skills but um i wanted to do it because i wanted people to understand

372
00:25:41,584 --> 00:25:50,764
what fanfares is as an app and what it can become what problems it solves and um how the the

373
00:25:50,764 --> 00:25:54,144
problems that we have how we arrived at those problems as well because i think that's a key

374
00:25:54,144 --> 00:26:01,324
part of understanding the solution so i got all of my ideas together down on uh on digital paper

375
00:26:01,324 --> 00:26:05,084
and started to write the book about eight months ago.

376
00:26:05,244 --> 00:26:07,304
And it's been through so many rewrites since then.

377
00:26:07,444 --> 00:26:12,644
And it really has been almost all of my time for those eight months to get it written.

378
00:26:12,644 --> 00:26:16,504
And my vision was always that once the app was ready to go,

379
00:26:16,684 --> 00:26:20,724
it would be recorded as an audio book and it would be the first thing to go out on the app.

380
00:26:21,244 --> 00:26:26,364
So that anyone that's been introduced to the app has a kind of point of reference there

381
00:26:26,364 --> 00:26:28,164
where if they take the time to listen to the book,

382
00:26:28,724 --> 00:26:30,964
they're going to understand what Fanfares is.

383
00:26:31,324 --> 00:26:34,104
and what it can potentially achieve.

384
00:26:35,044 --> 00:26:37,004
And I think with your description there,

385
00:26:37,004 --> 00:26:40,744
it goes beyond just paywalled media.

386
00:26:41,124 --> 00:26:42,524
It really kind of changes the way,

387
00:26:43,384 --> 00:26:46,764
changes the incentive system that the internet is built upon.

388
00:26:46,924 --> 00:26:49,564
I think that's really kind of where we go with it.

389
00:26:50,184 --> 00:26:53,104
We talk in the book about the problems that we have with the platforms.

390
00:26:53,964 --> 00:26:58,004
I think most people know about how the platforms are not necessarily very good

391
00:26:58,004 --> 00:26:58,744
for us mentally.

392
00:26:59,024 --> 00:27:00,304
They're designed to be very addictive.

393
00:27:01,324 --> 00:27:04,504
The main reason for that is because they're largely funded by advertising.

394
00:27:04,924 --> 00:27:08,924
And if the advertisers are paying the bills, then they want people to stay on there as long as possible.

395
00:27:09,324 --> 00:27:20,144
So the incentive is always to target people with their data, knowing where their weaknesses are and what kind of content is going to keep them glued to the screen.

396
00:27:21,204 --> 00:27:23,404
And that's the way the platforms have been built.

397
00:27:23,584 --> 00:27:27,824
But we know that's not an ideal form of digital media on the Internet.

398
00:27:27,824 --> 00:27:35,524
so within the book then we look at what really kind of led to that and my opinion is that it was

399
00:27:35,524 --> 00:27:41,944
the lack of a native digital currency on the internet and a native way to pay between people

400
00:27:41,944 --> 00:27:47,604
so when HTTP was developed it was really good for sharing information freely but you couldn't

401
00:27:47,604 --> 00:27:53,824
share value so that was the the key kind of bit of history that I wanted to explain and say this

402
00:27:53,824 --> 00:27:59,244
this is how we got here we we built products that were dependent upon advertising and so we ended up

403
00:27:59,244 --> 00:28:04,724
not being the customer we are the product and you know everyone's heard that before but it's

404
00:28:04,724 --> 00:28:10,524
it's it's more difficult to understand how to solve it so yeah the book goes on it's it's in

405
00:28:10,524 --> 00:28:14,564
in reality it's not just the payments that were missing it was the ability to have an identity

406
00:28:14,564 --> 00:28:20,344
um at the moment we all have username passwords on platforms but they're not ours they belong to

407
00:28:20,344 --> 00:28:26,264
platforms. There's the ability to host data. I mean, we've been able to do that with websites

408
00:28:26,264 --> 00:28:31,384
from the beginning, but that has cost associated. And when you have YouTube and Instagram offering

409
00:28:31,384 --> 00:28:37,004
you free storage for your photos and your videos, it's very hard to resist that. And apart from that,

410
00:28:37,064 --> 00:28:41,164
you know, if you create a website with your photos on, how is anyone going to find it? You know,

411
00:28:41,204 --> 00:28:46,344
and that's the other part of the internet that's required these companies to exist. You know,

412
00:28:46,344 --> 00:28:50,684
we've depended upon Google for search and the platforms now provide that

413
00:28:50,684 --> 00:28:53,204
discovery service. And if you are a creator of videos,

414
00:28:53,644 --> 00:28:57,104
you have to be on YouTube in order to get discovered. You know,

415
00:28:57,124 --> 00:28:57,944
that's just how it works.

416
00:28:58,364 --> 00:29:05,744
So we've kind of walked down this path without really understanding entirely

417
00:29:05,744 --> 00:29:09,284
where it was taking us and not really understanding the forces that were

418
00:29:09,284 --> 00:29:13,684
taking us there. But ultimately it was, it was a bad incentive system.

419
00:29:13,684 --> 00:29:21,264
It was the incentive to capture your audience because that's what gives you most value.

420
00:29:21,984 --> 00:29:37,024
And if you're on a platform, if you want to perform on that platform and be seen by the algorithm, then you need to engage in that kind of audience capture form of content, which isn't necessarily the kind of content that creators actually want to create.

421
00:29:37,024 --> 00:29:40,904
But then, yeah, we move on to the potential escape.

422
00:29:40,904 --> 00:29:51,864
And that is the tools that we now have with Bitcoin Lightning, with Nostra, with the FanFares kind of build on top where we enable people to encrypt content and have it paid for.

423
00:29:52,664 --> 00:30:07,544
And then the real kind of thing that was definitely not there with the prototype that you've used is the ability for creators when they upload the content, they have the option to specify a percentage of the revenue that will go to anyone that reposts for them.

424
00:30:07,544 --> 00:30:14,324
so when someone's bought something when they're listening to it they can on their screen at the

425
00:30:14,324 --> 00:30:19,804
same time generate an affiliate link which is unlike any affiliate link you've ever seen because

426
00:30:19,804 --> 00:30:24,424
there's no company in the middle you don't have amazon processing your payments and paying you

427
00:30:24,424 --> 00:30:29,104
after 90 days and taking a big fee for that sometimes not paying you at all depending on

428
00:30:29,104 --> 00:30:33,424
whether you meet the terms and conditions that what we have here is a sovereign affiliate link

429
00:30:33,424 --> 00:30:41,484
where it's automatic, it's instant, and it's a decentralized peer-to-peer payment effectively.

430
00:30:42,484 --> 00:30:47,804
So that is what we hope will help form a new discovery system on the internet,

431
00:30:48,484 --> 00:30:53,904
a network of humans that spend time looking for good content or creating good content

432
00:30:53,904 --> 00:30:59,764
and then selecting the very best that they're willing to stake their reputation on

433
00:30:59,764 --> 00:31:02,504
and sharing that with their peer group, with their network.

434
00:31:03,424 --> 00:31:15,044
So, let's talk about the sovereign affiliate links, because I think that gets into the heart of this new reputation-based economy that I'd referenced in the sermon.

435
00:31:15,044 --> 00:31:19,124
because the first thing that jumps into most people's minds

436
00:31:19,124 --> 00:31:23,264
when you mention affiliate links or referral links

437
00:31:23,264 --> 00:31:28,264
is some kind of, you have all of these influencers today

438
00:31:28,264 --> 00:31:32,464
pumping out codes for whatever, erectile dysfunction pills

439
00:31:32,464 --> 00:31:34,304
or libido or whatever it is, right?

440
00:31:34,704 --> 00:31:35,944
Creating supplements.

441
00:31:37,004 --> 00:31:40,664
And it just feels like this constant shill saying,

442
00:31:40,764 --> 00:31:42,624
hey, you can get 10% off on these pills,

443
00:31:42,624 --> 00:31:46,204
on these supplements or on this merch at the store

444
00:31:46,204 --> 00:31:47,664
if you use my referral code.

445
00:31:48,924 --> 00:31:52,744
These sovereign affiliate links that you're talking about,

446
00:31:53,524 --> 00:31:55,764
they are different because,

447
00:31:56,284 --> 00:31:58,883
and I want to make sure I understand this, Shod Fiat,

448
00:31:59,724 --> 00:32:04,164
is that because the person who is creating these links

449
00:32:04,164 --> 00:32:06,644
is signing that note on NOSTA

450
00:32:06,644 --> 00:32:12,304
and it's essentially irrevocably tied to their,

451
00:32:12,304 --> 00:32:19,064
npub is that correct yeah the npub is part of the link itself and we have a link shortener so you

452
00:32:19,064 --> 00:32:22,924
don't end up with a very kind of long long link long link each time but the information

453
00:32:22,924 --> 00:32:28,544
of the lightning address of the person that's that's that's created the link and that shares

454
00:32:28,544 --> 00:32:35,224
the link is is within that that link so you you have the original creator the person that's done

455
00:32:35,224 --> 00:32:40,883
the referral their payment information is included within that link so that when the payment is made

456
00:32:40,883 --> 00:32:43,184
it's automatically split in between those two

457
00:32:43,184 --> 00:32:46,984
those two people that helped bring the content

458
00:32:46,984 --> 00:32:49,044
to you. Let's

459
00:32:49,044 --> 00:32:51,004
take a real life example. So

460
00:32:51,004 --> 00:32:52,364
you've written this book

461
00:32:52,364 --> 00:32:54,944
and I believe it will be the first item

462
00:32:54,944 --> 00:32:56,824
listed on FanFares, is that correct?

463
00:32:57,324 --> 00:32:58,883
Yes, it's now

464
00:32:58,883 --> 00:33:00,904
published on FanFares and I just put

465
00:33:00,904 --> 00:33:03,004
a Noster note out at the beginning of this

466
00:33:03,004 --> 00:33:04,464
live show.

467
00:33:05,404 --> 00:33:06,883
So the link is now

468
00:33:06,883 --> 00:33:09,024
out there. You go to my Noster, you'll be able to see it.

469
00:33:09,024 --> 00:33:17,564
But yeah, if you go there, the purchase price is 8,000 sats, which is probably not an unreasonable price for an audiobook.

470
00:33:17,904 --> 00:33:22,344
I mean, Audible, quite often you pay more than that, but that's the price in Bitcoin.

471
00:33:24,424 --> 00:33:27,184
Yeah, the money all goes through to the author.

472
00:33:27,304 --> 00:33:35,604
So anyone else that publishes an audiobook or a podcast or other content on the Fanfares app, all of the money is going through.

473
00:33:35,604 --> 00:33:37,984
Less lightning fees, which are obviously quite small.

474
00:33:39,024 --> 00:33:46,844
But if you compare that with Audible, anyone that publishes on Audible, they're giving away 70% to the platform.

475
00:33:47,964 --> 00:33:51,844
If you agree, I think 75%, that's it, 75% you're giving away to the platform.

476
00:33:52,264 --> 00:33:56,844
If you agree to a seven-year exclusivity period, then it's only 60%.

477
00:33:57,484 --> 00:34:04,044
But with this system, if you publish through fanfares, you're outside of the platforms, you can't be censored.

478
00:34:04,044 --> 00:34:10,224
you're getting all the money and you have the potential to recruit your audience as promoters

479
00:34:10,224 --> 00:34:16,804
that will share it with their with their peers so it's a very different kind of publishing system

480
00:34:16,804 --> 00:34:23,824
so let's double click a little more into that just a second on that because um you made me

481
00:34:23,824 --> 00:34:28,544
remember because i was talking about this i think last episode the episode before and it wasn't

482
00:34:28,544 --> 00:34:34,844
actually the the books it was the audio books that you know you get your credits for audible

483
00:34:34,844 --> 00:34:41,604
and you use those credits to buy books but from what i was reading those credits when when you

484
00:34:41,604 --> 00:34:47,164
use those to buy an author's audio book uh the actual author gets crumbs for that because they're

485
00:34:47,164 --> 00:34:54,064
like credits or something do you are you familiar with that at all yeah the exact amount that the

486
00:34:54,064 --> 00:34:57,504
that the author gets is kind of shrouded in secrecy a little bit

487
00:34:57,504 --> 00:34:59,004
because the way Audible works,

488
00:34:59,084 --> 00:35:01,084
they're always pushing people onto the subscription service

489
00:35:01,084 --> 00:35:02,304
because they get more money that way.

490
00:35:03,524 --> 00:35:15,835
And I mean I a customer of Audible I do it I been subscribing for years And you know I buy what a month It is the old one a month book club I don know if I old enough to remember that one but it was something we used to get in the back of magazines

491
00:35:15,835 --> 00:35:17,635
where they would sell you hardback books

492
00:35:17,635 --> 00:35:18,615
and the one a month book club.

493
00:35:18,735 --> 00:35:21,495
I remember Columbia Records and getting discs.

494
00:35:22,615 --> 00:35:23,335
There you go, yeah.

495
00:35:23,795 --> 00:35:25,975
It's not a new formula in terms of economics.

496
00:35:25,975 --> 00:35:27,535
It's just a new delivery system.

497
00:35:28,356 --> 00:35:30,315
But yeah, in practice, the authors do get,

498
00:35:30,635 --> 00:35:33,795
I understand about $1 or $2 for each actual purchase.

499
00:35:33,795 --> 00:35:36,835
And, you know, we're paying much more than that for the book itself.

500
00:35:37,196 --> 00:35:45,635
So Audible has got not a complete monopoly, but they've got a very strong stranglehold in that market just because of the way these marketplaces work.

501
00:35:45,696 --> 00:35:47,876
If someone's looking for an audio book, then they'll go to Audible.

502
00:35:48,356 --> 00:35:50,835
So in order to get discovered, you have to be on Audible.

503
00:35:51,215 --> 00:35:53,175
And if you want to sell your book, that's what you have to do.

504
00:35:53,215 --> 00:35:58,015
And you're really at the mercy of that centralized platform that's controlling the delivery.

505
00:35:58,235 --> 00:36:03,196
But all they're really doing is, you know, they've got an app and they're hosting your data for you.

506
00:36:03,795 --> 00:36:05,436
They're managing the payment process.

507
00:36:06,396 --> 00:36:08,416
And in theory, they could give you discovery,

508
00:36:08,555 --> 00:36:12,595
but in practice, they're only really going to pump the existing bestsellers

509
00:36:12,595 --> 00:36:15,015
through their app as recommendations.

510
00:36:15,015 --> 00:36:18,635
So for most authors, they're not really getting any discovery at all,

511
00:36:18,715 --> 00:36:23,575
but they are paying a huge percentage of their revenue to Amazon, basically,

512
00:36:23,675 --> 00:36:24,416
who own Audible.

513
00:36:26,595 --> 00:36:31,916
So let's continue working through the example of your book, Shot Fiat.

514
00:36:31,916 --> 00:36:34,456
but so the book is available for 8,000 cents.

515
00:36:34,995 --> 00:36:36,335
Someone who's listening to the show

516
00:36:36,335 --> 00:36:40,215
goes to FanFares, pays the 8,000 cents,

517
00:36:40,436 --> 00:36:42,075
listens to the entire audio book,

518
00:36:42,155 --> 00:36:43,916
and they're like, holy crap, this is amazing.

519
00:36:44,376 --> 00:36:46,035
I want all my friends to hear about it.

520
00:36:46,456 --> 00:36:48,696
They go get a referral link, right?

521
00:36:48,835 --> 00:36:51,035
So 8,000 cents, and then they,

522
00:36:52,135 --> 00:36:52,896
what do they do?

523
00:36:52,956 --> 00:36:55,436
They post a note saying, hey, get this book.

524
00:36:55,436 --> 00:36:57,115
How would that work?

525
00:36:58,155 --> 00:36:59,555
They can generate a referral link,

526
00:36:59,675 --> 00:37:01,315
which is like any kind of normal web link,

527
00:37:01,315 --> 00:37:03,255
and they can publish that any way they want.

528
00:37:03,675 --> 00:37:05,196
So they can put it in their Telegram groups,

529
00:37:05,315 --> 00:37:07,055
their WhatsApp groups, they can post it on Twitter.

530
00:37:07,916 --> 00:37:10,135
Effectively, the discovery system for fanfares

531
00:37:10,135 --> 00:37:11,936
is the existing rails of the internet.

532
00:37:12,755 --> 00:37:15,416
But the real discovery system is the network of humans

533
00:37:15,416 --> 00:37:18,196
that choose to promote content

534
00:37:18,196 --> 00:37:19,856
that they appreciate the value of.

535
00:37:20,515 --> 00:37:21,835
They might read my book and think,

536
00:37:21,936 --> 00:37:22,975
okay, that's a nice idea.

537
00:37:23,436 --> 00:37:24,916
Not really worth 8,000 sats,

538
00:37:24,995 --> 00:37:26,436
so I'm not going to recommend that to anyone

539
00:37:26,436 --> 00:37:27,755
because they'll be upset with me

540
00:37:27,755 --> 00:37:29,315
that they've paid 8,000 sats

541
00:37:29,315 --> 00:37:30,555
and it was only worth 2,000.

542
00:37:31,015 --> 00:37:33,155
Or they may think, yeah, what a great idea.

543
00:37:33,275 --> 00:37:35,436
Someone's clearly spent some time writing this book

544
00:37:35,436 --> 00:37:37,916
and it is worth 8,000 sats.

545
00:37:38,015 --> 00:37:39,956
So I'm willing to put it out there

546
00:37:39,956 --> 00:37:41,575
through the existing channels of the internet.

547
00:37:42,015 --> 00:37:44,055
And if other people buy it,

548
00:37:44,196 --> 00:37:46,856
then the referral split on this book is 50%.

549
00:37:46,856 --> 00:37:51,876
So 4,000 sats for every purchase

550
00:37:51,876 --> 00:37:53,655
that comes off the back of their referral link

551
00:37:53,655 --> 00:37:56,535
will go instantly into their Lightning wallet.

552
00:37:57,876 --> 00:37:58,515
It's worth pointing out,

553
00:37:58,515 --> 00:38:01,235
there is a kind of prologue to the book, which is free,

554
00:38:01,436 --> 00:38:03,356
which gives you a taste of what the book is all about.

555
00:38:04,035 --> 00:38:07,155
And we do make it clear within that that there is that referral process.

556
00:38:07,155 --> 00:38:12,376
So anyone that receives a link to the book can understand

557
00:38:12,376 --> 00:38:18,075
what kind of revenue split they'll be if they make the purchase.

558
00:38:19,815 --> 00:38:22,995
So they post the referral link on – they could post it anyway.

559
00:38:23,095 --> 00:38:25,376
It could be on Nostra, it could be on X, it could be on Telegram.

560
00:38:25,376 --> 00:38:28,795
and then someone clicks on it

561
00:38:28,795 --> 00:38:30,715
and it comes from, you know, they recommend it.

562
00:38:30,856 --> 00:38:33,315
So presumably people who like

563
00:38:33,315 --> 00:38:37,196
or, you know, who feel that this person has,

564
00:38:37,956 --> 00:38:40,396
they trust their opinion, let's just say.

565
00:38:40,815 --> 00:38:41,835
They click on the link and say,

566
00:38:41,896 --> 00:38:42,416
okay, you know what?

567
00:38:42,436 --> 00:38:43,795
This guy told me, he gave me the link.

568
00:38:43,876 --> 00:38:44,615
I'm going to buy this.

569
00:38:44,715 --> 00:38:47,755
And then you said it's 4,000 sets each, right?

570
00:38:47,755 --> 00:38:49,655
So does that link that they post

571
00:38:49,655 --> 00:38:53,416
take them directly to fanfares

572
00:38:53,416 --> 00:38:55,696
and then they choose to pay in,

573
00:38:56,196 --> 00:38:58,275
I'm assuming there is no fiat option, right?

574
00:38:58,475 --> 00:38:59,196
It is just Bitcoin.

575
00:38:59,456 --> 00:39:00,815
There is no fiat option.

576
00:39:01,175 --> 00:39:03,095
This book will only be an audio book.

577
00:39:04,135 --> 00:39:05,775
So yeah, you can only buy it with Bitcoin.

578
00:39:06,015 --> 00:39:06,876
It's not going to go on Amazon.

579
00:39:07,075 --> 00:39:07,916
It's not going to go on Audible.

580
00:39:08,535 --> 00:39:10,595
The only way you can get it is through the FanFares app.

581
00:39:11,416 --> 00:39:13,916
But yeah, so the link will take them through

582
00:39:13,916 --> 00:39:15,396
to the FanFares web app.

583
00:39:15,896 --> 00:39:17,535
They will listen to the prologue

584
00:39:17,535 --> 00:39:19,615
if they think it's worth it

585
00:39:19,615 --> 00:39:20,815
based on the recommendation,

586
00:39:20,995 --> 00:39:22,916
based on what they've heard in the prologue.

587
00:39:23,416 --> 00:39:26,795
Lightning wallet can be opened through the app itself.

588
00:39:27,416 --> 00:39:28,956
They can make the payment of the invoice,

589
00:39:29,655 --> 00:39:31,075
and the rest of the book will play.

590
00:39:31,936 --> 00:39:34,175
But it's then held on their device as well.

591
00:39:34,275 --> 00:39:36,655
It's downloaded onto their device, so they own a copy of it.

592
00:39:38,155 --> 00:39:41,356
Bobby, you just asked short fiat if there was a fiat option.

593
00:39:41,896 --> 00:39:43,775
Well, I was going to say, I was going to say,

594
00:39:44,135 --> 00:39:45,416
it was a trick question, KW.

595
00:39:46,095 --> 00:39:49,175
If you had said yes, I would have pointed out the irony.

596
00:39:50,976 --> 00:39:51,555
There we go.

597
00:39:51,555 --> 00:39:53,055
I chose the name short fiat.

598
00:39:53,055 --> 00:39:56,795
Before I got into Bitcoin, I was a big gold bug.

599
00:39:57,495 --> 00:40:00,856
From sort of 2008 when the financial crisis first happened,

600
00:40:00,936 --> 00:40:03,456
I figured out that fiat money had real problems.

601
00:40:03,635 --> 00:40:07,115
And I was buying gold coins and burying them in the back of gold.

602
00:40:07,195 --> 00:40:11,175
So I was shorting fiat from before the point where Bitcoin actually existed.

603
00:40:11,995 --> 00:40:16,175
But it took me a number of years to really get my head around Bitcoin

604
00:40:16,175 --> 00:40:21,155
and why it's actually better than gold as a store of value and as a currency.

605
00:40:23,055 --> 00:40:42,976
So the sovereign affiliate links, I think this is the key part of the hypothesis, which I certainly want to be true. It remains to be seen how it will play out. But I think it will change digital interactions, internet transactions, if the hypothesis plays out.

606
00:40:42,976 --> 00:40:58,075
And the way I understand it is there is these sovereign affiliate links, which is, you know, it's tied to your end pub and essentially, therefore, tied to your reputation.

607
00:40:58,075 --> 00:41:03,436
right so if if you are someone who's promoting someone else's work

608
00:41:03,436 --> 00:41:11,995
and you know to your web of trust you want to make sure that you're promoting something good

609
00:41:11,995 --> 00:41:17,175
so that the people who who you promote it to you know either listen to it read it or whatever it

610
00:41:17,175 --> 00:41:22,795
might be and say oh yeah that was good or because if they don't like it your reputation will

611
00:41:22,795 --> 00:41:29,396
essentially take a hit right as the person who's who's promoting these links yeah that's the crux

612
00:41:29,396 --> 00:41:34,976
of it yeah sorry carry on no so and i think this is the key here right that hypothesis that

613
00:41:34,976 --> 00:41:42,376
if we can get it to that point where it is people basing things off of reputation within their webs

614
00:41:42,376 --> 00:41:52,916
of trust, then high quality content will permeate. And this low quality swap, right, that we're

615
00:41:52,916 --> 00:41:58,275
seeing everywhere in the attention economy, that will slowly phase out.

616
00:41:59,815 --> 00:42:04,376
Yeah, it's very much a sort of game theory solution. And the example I like to give,

617
00:42:04,795 --> 00:42:10,315
if you recommend a video to me on Twitter, and I say, I'm watching, I mean, you know,

618
00:42:10,315 --> 00:42:15,055
everything's free on Twitter. So it's a different kind of incentive system entirely. But if I spend

619
00:42:15,055 --> 00:42:18,916
two minutes watching and I think that was rubbish, you know, why did every waste my time at that?

620
00:42:19,035 --> 00:42:23,255
You know, I'm not going to have any recriminations about that. I'm not going to be complaining to you

621
00:42:23,255 --> 00:42:27,055
that you've wasted two minutes of my time. I'm just going to move on and not care about it.

622
00:42:27,376 --> 00:42:34,416
But if you send me a link to a video that costs $2 and I pay for it and it turns out to be

623
00:42:34,416 --> 00:42:39,235
absolutely rubbish or something that wasn't what you said it was or even misinformation,

624
00:42:39,235 --> 00:42:42,956
then I am going to have a grievance over that.

625
00:42:43,035 --> 00:42:46,896
I'm going to be like, well, Avi really isn't recommending good stuff to me.

626
00:42:46,936 --> 00:42:50,835
He's just trying to get his referral splits and he's wasting my time and my money.

627
00:42:51,215 --> 00:42:53,815
So I might unfollow Avi or I might even mute him,

628
00:42:54,135 --> 00:42:57,175
which would affect the web of trust that you have on Nostar.

629
00:42:57,295 --> 00:42:59,376
And it would mean I wouldn't see your stuff in the future.

630
00:42:59,876 --> 00:43:01,595
Or even if I didn't do either of those things,

631
00:43:01,595 --> 00:43:03,916
I still wouldn't trust your judgment in the future.

632
00:43:03,916 --> 00:43:08,835
So your ability to actually have influence and promote content

633
00:43:08,835 --> 00:43:12,055
and earn from your recommendations is reduced

634
00:43:12,055 --> 00:43:17,595
if you actually don't really kind of make good recommendations over time.

635
00:43:18,275 --> 00:43:22,215
And it's kind of, it's an idea that will evolve.

636
00:43:22,376 --> 00:43:24,255
You know, we have the basic building blocks here,

637
00:43:24,356 --> 00:43:26,555
which are now the gated content,

638
00:43:26,715 --> 00:43:28,795
but you're paying with Bitcoin Lightning and the payment splits.

639
00:43:28,795 --> 00:43:33,115
And I've spent a lot of time sort of working on the game theory

640
00:43:33,115 --> 00:43:37,416
of how does this evolve as a discovery system over time?

641
00:43:37,416 --> 00:43:47,376
And what I consistently arrive at is that the net effect is better quality because of the friction that exists with the payments and because of the NOSTA reputation system.

642
00:43:47,476 --> 00:43:51,976
There already exists on NOSTA and the web of trust that's being built there.

643
00:43:52,396 --> 00:44:02,635
The more that we're able to remember what people said in the past and if it was a positive value or a negative value, the more that's going to affect how we react to them in the future.

644
00:44:03,476 --> 00:44:05,015
And so people's behavior will change.

645
00:44:05,015 --> 00:44:10,175
people, everyone, lots of people will complain about the way people behave on Twitter.

646
00:44:10,976 --> 00:44:15,835
And a lot of that, in my opinion, is just because there isn't consequence for what people do and what people say.

647
00:44:16,376 --> 00:44:20,775
But if you actually have a system where there's real consequences to what people do and what they say,

648
00:44:20,956 --> 00:44:23,075
then behavior will change.

649
00:44:23,575 --> 00:44:27,115
And the net effect will be a filtration for quality.

650
00:44:27,995 --> 00:44:32,735
Because we do believe that there will be people that probably currently call themselves influencers

651
00:44:32,735 --> 00:44:37,235
and what they're doing quite often is actually making referrals already.

652
00:44:37,356 --> 00:44:39,315
They're referring content, they're reposting content,

653
00:44:39,436 --> 00:44:42,476
they're commenting on content, but they're not getting paid for any of that.

654
00:44:42,476 --> 00:44:45,476
They're getting paid when they give you the seven ways

655
00:44:46,095 --> 00:44:49,195
to increase your penis size or whatever it is that they're advertising,

656
00:44:49,456 --> 00:44:50,995
VPNs they don't use, who knows.

657
00:44:51,155 --> 00:44:53,476
But that's what they're actually getting paid for.

658
00:44:53,595 --> 00:44:56,295
So they're actually doing some referral work already.

659
00:44:56,376 --> 00:45:01,195
They're doing some curation, but they're not being financially judged on that.

660
00:45:01,195 --> 00:45:05,555
So the amount of time and effort they put into that curation process probably isn't very high.

661
00:45:06,155 --> 00:45:16,075
But if they were actually doing that work as their primary function and they were getting paid for the quality of what they referred, then they would probably spend a lot more time on it.

662
00:45:16,195 --> 00:45:19,896
And the same applies to creators, you know, creators that might be publishing content.

663
00:45:20,436 --> 00:45:24,436
They might be under pressure with a subscription service to publish every week or twice a week.

664
00:45:25,095 --> 00:45:28,416
And they might not really have good stuff to say at that point in time.

665
00:45:28,456 --> 00:45:29,916
So they have to put something out anyway.

666
00:45:29,916 --> 00:45:40,775
But if they're only really charging for what people use or only getting paid for what people use, they might actually spend much more time and wait until they've got real inspiration, something really good quality before they actually publish.

667
00:45:40,775 --> 00:45:45,615
So we end up with less noise, more signal, better quality.

668
00:45:46,635 --> 00:45:53,376
And it really kind of, you know, it changes the game in terms of the way the platforms have been built and funded through advertising.

669
00:45:53,376 --> 00:45:57,335
intermediation is disintermediated

670
00:45:57,335 --> 00:46:01,155
and it ends up being in the hands of the network. The people become the

671
00:46:01,155 --> 00:46:05,235
advertisers as a network and the web of trust is what

672
00:46:05,235 --> 00:46:09,275
keeps them in line effectively. They have to be honest

673
00:46:09,275 --> 00:46:13,195
otherwise they will lose revenue over time. They'll lose reputation and

674
00:46:13,195 --> 00:46:15,515
they'll lose an ability to make revenue over time.

675
00:46:17,695 --> 00:46:21,135
A key thing this hinges on is the

676
00:46:21,135 --> 00:46:29,835
idea that consumers of content will be intolerant towards bad recommendations.

677
00:46:31,376 --> 00:46:39,856
If that statement is true, then it follows that the people promoting content will be

678
00:46:39,856 --> 00:46:42,936
concerned about their reputation and will only promote good content.

679
00:46:43,055 --> 00:46:46,215
And the creators of the content will only produce high quality things.

680
00:46:46,215 --> 00:46:52,396
But if the public is so inured to slaughter,

681
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:57,767
that they tolerate anything, right?

682
00:46:58,027 --> 00:47:01,587
Oh, yeah, I got an affiliate link and it was trash,

683
00:47:01,787 --> 00:47:03,007
whatever, I don't really care.

684
00:47:04,787 --> 00:47:07,627
I think that's when this hypothesis doesn't play out.

685
00:47:07,867 --> 00:47:08,927
Do you see that risk?

686
00:47:10,607 --> 00:47:13,047
Yeah, I mean, if people are happy to lose money

687
00:47:13,047 --> 00:47:14,367
and get rubbish for it,

688
00:47:14,367 --> 00:47:17,327
then, yeah, I guess they're not really

689
00:47:17,327 --> 00:47:20,127
a high signal within the system

690
00:47:20,127 --> 00:47:23,487
because the same people that don't really care what they watch

691
00:47:23,487 --> 00:47:25,627
and what they pay for will probably be reposting it.

692
00:47:25,927 --> 00:47:28,767
And they will be removed from the web of trust

693
00:47:28,767 --> 00:47:32,307
that people really do care about quality and what they're paying for.

694
00:47:32,607 --> 00:47:37,347
So, you know, effectively everyone is creating their own discovery system

695
00:47:37,347 --> 00:47:38,847
through the people they choose to follow.

696
00:47:39,967 --> 00:47:44,687
And people that don't have any discernment for quality or signal,

697
00:47:44,847 --> 00:47:47,907
then they will end up in a different web of trust to people that do.

698
00:47:47,907 --> 00:47:52,007
and if that's what they choose if they want to just consume whatever sent to them by

699
00:47:52,007 --> 00:47:56,767
whatever influence them they might be following if they don't want to improve the quality of what

700
00:47:56,767 --> 00:48:02,347
they're seeing then you know it's entirely up to them it's it's a free and voluntary system it's

701
00:48:02,347 --> 00:48:09,107
not financially free but anyone is free to enter to leave whenever they want and to follow whoever

702
00:48:09,107 --> 00:48:15,987
they want so if people choose to watch rubbish you know i can't stop them i have no wish to stop

703
00:48:15,987 --> 00:48:21,387
who's to say what is rubbish and what isn't you know i mean it's art isn't it you could say what

704
00:48:21,387 --> 00:48:25,387
is good art what isn't you know it's it's entirely down to people's personal opinion so

705
00:48:25,387 --> 00:48:28,147
that they're free to do that as much as they like

706
00:48:28,147 --> 00:48:36,987
i think that is the one nagging thing in my mind because what you said right people consuming

707
00:48:36,987 --> 00:48:42,027
rubbish and i'm sorry if this sounds dismissive to majority of the world but that's the world we

708
00:48:42,027 --> 00:48:48,827
live in today. People are completely happy consuming rubbish. And I just wonder...

709
00:48:48,827 --> 00:48:54,547
My fantasy football draft is this afternoon. I'm sure you think that's rubbish, but for me,

710
00:48:54,787 --> 00:48:56,927
I'm really looking forward to it.

711
00:48:59,447 --> 00:49:08,167
But are we going to see an inflection point where there's leakage, I suppose,

712
00:49:08,167 --> 00:49:11,987
where people suddenly,

713
00:49:13,727 --> 00:49:15,007
you know, they say,

714
00:49:15,147 --> 00:49:18,627
I want to consume better quality content.

715
00:49:18,967 --> 00:49:21,087
I'm, you know, I'm, it's not okay

716
00:49:21,087 --> 00:49:23,607
that I've, you know, I'm eating trash.

717
00:49:24,207 --> 00:49:26,827
I'm, you know, watching AI slop,

718
00:49:26,947 --> 00:49:29,047
consuming AI slop day in and day out.

719
00:49:29,047 --> 00:49:32,187
And I want to break out of that.

720
00:49:32,347 --> 00:49:34,507
And I just, it's unclear to me

721
00:49:34,507 --> 00:49:36,347
if we will hit that inflection point

722
00:49:36,347 --> 00:49:38,507
where these people turn the corner and say,

723
00:49:38,587 --> 00:49:40,447
you know what, no, I want to make a change.

724
00:49:40,547 --> 00:49:41,607
I want to join that.

725
00:49:42,867 --> 00:49:44,367
Yeah, I think the answer to that,

726
00:49:44,487 --> 00:49:45,807
I mean, this is a sovereign system

727
00:49:45,807 --> 00:49:49,267
and it only works if the people within it are sovereign.

728
00:49:49,767 --> 00:49:52,007
So that's the key element to it.

729
00:49:52,007 --> 00:49:55,207
It is your choice to be sovereign about what you consume

730
00:49:55,207 --> 00:49:57,847
that makes you a positive part of the system.

731
00:49:59,547 --> 00:50:03,307
And if you are just not caring about what you see,

732
00:50:03,367 --> 00:50:04,707
you'll probably just stay on Twitter

733
00:50:04,707 --> 00:50:08,407
or X as they call it these days, you know, because it's free.

734
00:50:08,747 --> 00:50:13,927
And you'll just watch whatever low-quality content is being pumped out,

735
00:50:14,667 --> 00:50:17,447
whatever the algorithm wants to send you because they know it will keep you

736
00:50:17,447 --> 00:50:18,647
addicted and keep you watching.

737
00:50:19,787 --> 00:50:25,307
You know, that system is what it is.

738
00:50:25,547 --> 00:50:29,167
And the people that choose that will probably choose that over Nostra.

739
00:50:29,167 --> 00:50:36,787
but people that find good stuff through fanfares they will be brought into NOSTA they will choose

740
00:50:36,787 --> 00:50:42,687
to stay on NOSTA because that's where they can curate their own experience through following

741
00:50:42,687 --> 00:50:49,227
people that are providing genuine signal and if they don't want to be that person they won't be

742
00:50:49,227 --> 00:50:53,747
part of the system so it's a self-selecting process you know you won't have people that

743
00:50:53,747 --> 00:50:59,107
come on NOSTA because they don't care what they see because it's you know it's not as engaging

744
00:50:59,107 --> 00:51:01,187
and Twitter is not designed to be as engaging.

745
00:51:01,467 --> 00:51:03,987
It's not what Nostra optimizes for.

746
00:51:04,467 --> 00:51:08,667
I think Nostra optimizes for value rather than for engagement.

747
00:51:09,167 --> 00:51:10,847
You know, and that's the main difference.

748
00:51:10,967 --> 00:51:12,287
I think you're right.

749
00:51:12,347 --> 00:51:14,707
There's a lot of people that are just happy to see rubbish,

750
00:51:14,847 --> 00:51:19,227
but I think there's a general sense that people know they're being made addicted

751
00:51:19,227 --> 00:51:20,127
to those platforms.

752
00:51:20,347 --> 00:51:22,907
They know that they're wasting their time on them more than they want to.

753
00:51:23,627 --> 00:51:27,347
So there's a sense of dissatisfaction with the system overall.

754
00:51:27,347 --> 00:51:32,007
they might like the latest meme they've seen or the latest video they've seen but

755
00:51:32,007 --> 00:51:36,247
they probably know that it's not really adding any value to their lives and it's wasting their time

756
00:51:36,247 --> 00:51:41,347
so i think it's it's none of it none of it's going to happen overnight people aren't going

757
00:51:41,347 --> 00:51:47,027
to suddenly leave twitter instantly and come to nostra and start paying for content on fanfares but

758
00:51:47,027 --> 00:51:54,327
over time you know the fundamentals are stronger and if you end up with a system that is consistently

759
00:51:54,327 --> 00:52:01,427
better quality, gives you more autonomy, gives you freedom from censorship, then there's

760
00:52:01,427 --> 00:52:02,987
plenty of people that would appreciate that.

761
00:52:03,487 --> 00:52:06,227
And for people that don't, you know, that's entirely up to them.

762
00:52:06,467 --> 00:52:09,547
You know, they just naturally won't become part of the system.

763
00:52:10,847 --> 00:52:14,387
And you do outline a migration path, a plausible migration path.

764
00:52:14,487 --> 00:52:20,287
I think it's, you structure it as concentric circles, right, of different levels of, I don't

765
00:52:20,287 --> 00:52:26,027
know if that's made it to the final version of the book but the one i read right and i and the

766
00:52:26,027 --> 00:52:31,247
names are slipping my mind right now shot fiat but you have the core it's something like the core

767
00:52:31,247 --> 00:52:39,007
uh consumers and the bridge and then it goes out yeah that that one is is not part of the book now

768
00:52:39,007 --> 00:52:44,347
i think because it was it was kind of my musings over how the whole adoption curve could happen

769
00:52:44,347 --> 00:52:56,687
And ultimately, I wanted the book to be more grounded in sort of mostly, in fact, about the past, where we are now, about how the solution works, the tools that we now have, which are relatively recent.

770
00:52:56,867 --> 00:52:58,987
You know, Bitcoin, Lightning and Nostra are so recent.

771
00:52:59,207 --> 00:53:01,567
We're still at the early stage of these things.

772
00:53:02,447 --> 00:53:10,787
And, you know, I've done some kind of hypothesizing about how the curation system builds a better quality network, better quality content.

773
00:53:10,787 --> 00:53:17,007
but yeah I think the adoption curve that I was originally including in there I take that out now

774
00:53:17,007 --> 00:53:23,587
because it was just too speculative but yeah the reality is I think the easiest adopters will be

775
00:53:23,587 --> 00:53:29,127
Bitcoin authors because they're being royally ripped off on Audible and their audience mostly

776
00:53:29,127 --> 00:53:33,627
will have Bitcoin that they can use to pay for an audiobook so I think that's going to be the

777
00:53:33,627 --> 00:53:39,707
obvious one to target initially. Bitcoin podcasters, I think, will be real potential

778
00:53:39,707 --> 00:53:44,267
once they figure out that they can release premium content and put a price on that.

779
00:53:44,987 --> 00:53:52,967
That should generate quite a lot of interest in the Bitcoin community if Bitcoin podcasters

780
00:53:52,967 --> 00:53:57,567
do start to experiment with this technology. I think the way that the numbers might work there,

781
00:53:57,647 --> 00:54:03,147
if you look at, obviously, you guys are doing this podcast without monetization, which is

782
00:54:03,147 --> 00:54:07,507
admirable you're just contributing something to the community but for people that are trying to

783
00:54:07,507 --> 00:54:13,827
make a living out of it if they have good levels of sponsorship they earn about twenty dollars for

784
00:54:13,827 --> 00:54:20,607
every one thousand streams so that's that's not a huge amount of money but if you take the

785
00:54:20,607 --> 00:54:26,687
equivalent you charge one dollar for a premium podcast and have a free part as a flyer to that

786
00:54:26,687 --> 00:54:30,987
that gives them the introduction to it they've only got to get a two percent conversion rate

787
00:54:30,987 --> 00:54:37,187
to compete positively with what they would have earned on the sponsorship side.

788
00:54:37,867 --> 00:54:40,947
And then, of course, you have the potential that some of that 2% or more

789
00:54:40,947 --> 00:54:45,267
might go on to do a referral, bring in a new audience for them, actually,

790
00:54:45,407 --> 00:54:46,687
and bring in more money as well.

791
00:54:46,987 --> 00:54:52,507
So I think the adoption is initially through the Bitcoin space, for sure,

792
00:54:52,607 --> 00:54:55,327
because that's where we understand these kind of technologies,

793
00:54:55,327 --> 00:54:57,247
where we've got the money to pay for content.

794
00:54:57,247 --> 00:55:06,827
And if we do understand it, we'll probably want to support this kind of technology because we can see that it's a way of building Bitcoin as a use case.

795
00:55:06,827 --> 00:55:08,927
And it's a way of bringing people into NOSTA.

796
00:55:09,847 --> 00:55:18,447
And with the vision of there potentially being a more high quality Internet where people are accountable for what they do and there are consequences for what people say.

797
00:55:18,987 --> 00:55:25,307
I think the Bitcoiners are most likely to get that most quickly because a lot of us have read books about these kind of concepts already.

798
00:55:25,307 --> 00:55:30,307
It is the intersection of business and economics and technology.

799
00:55:31,347 --> 00:55:33,827
And I think that's what we kind of understand in this space.

800
00:55:33,967 --> 00:55:39,727
So I think the media element to it is slightly different to what a lot of Bitcoiners already think about.

801
00:55:39,907 --> 00:55:44,367
But that's where NOSTA really kind of is the new branch of this community.

802
00:55:44,647 --> 00:55:48,307
It is decentralized media together, decentralized money.

803
00:55:49,047 --> 00:55:52,167
The two are very well suited to each other.

804
00:55:52,167 --> 00:55:54,667
And in many ways, they are the use case for each other.

805
00:55:55,307 --> 00:55:58,527
the more I think about it,

806
00:55:59,227 --> 00:56:00,547
the more it makes sense to me

807
00:56:00,547 --> 00:56:02,087
that something like FanFares

808
00:56:02,087 --> 00:56:04,387
will work as a protocol

809
00:56:04,387 --> 00:56:07,047
as opposed to a standalone app.

810
00:56:07,067 --> 00:56:08,807
Because if you want to expand

811
00:56:08,807 --> 00:56:10,467
to all types of content,

812
00:56:10,627 --> 00:56:13,107
video, audio books,

813
00:56:14,007 --> 00:56:14,867
you know, other media,

814
00:56:16,307 --> 00:56:18,527
the issue becomes if you're an app,

815
00:56:18,627 --> 00:56:20,427
and you can keep me honest here,

816
00:56:20,807 --> 00:56:21,187
short for you,

817
00:56:21,867 --> 00:56:36,918
each of those forms of media come with their own intricacies For example in video you have to offer transcoding services if you want to have a proper video offering right Podcasting has its own set of constraints

818
00:56:37,178 --> 00:56:38,738
live streaming, another set,

819
00:56:38,818 --> 00:56:39,918
audio book, something else.

820
00:56:41,218 --> 00:56:42,618
Whereas if it were,

821
00:56:43,018 --> 00:56:44,818
if FanFares were a protocol

822
00:56:44,818 --> 00:56:47,078
that enables this

823
00:56:47,078 --> 00:56:50,458
sovereign affiliate links

824
00:56:50,458 --> 00:56:52,198
and monetization layer,

825
00:56:52,318 --> 00:56:53,458
then you can have an actual,

826
00:56:53,458 --> 00:57:00,318
you can have applications that specialize in specific forms of media that just slap on fanfares

827
00:57:00,318 --> 00:57:07,558
on top as the as the layer that allows the creators to monetize and promote their content

828
00:57:07,558 --> 00:57:13,398
is that what do you think about that i think yeah you're exactly right and i think yeah that's

829
00:57:13,398 --> 00:57:19,158
something that we do want we want people to extend upon what we've built and and create specialist

830
00:57:19,158 --> 00:57:23,258
things within it. We're confident we can deliver all forms of

831
00:57:23,258 --> 00:57:26,798
media through our app. So we will be doing video

832
00:57:26,798 --> 00:57:31,018
potentially courses, maybe even games will be delivered

833
00:57:31,018 --> 00:57:35,178
through the app. But it's going to take time to build all that stuff. We're not stopping here. This is

834
00:57:35,178 --> 00:57:39,138
really just our first base in terms of delivery. But yeah, we

835
00:57:39,138 --> 00:57:42,978
expect that there will be people that will want to use parts of our code

836
00:57:42,978 --> 00:57:46,878
to make stuff better, to make stuff far more specialist.

837
00:57:46,878 --> 00:57:55,298
But the thing to really conceptualize is that the real layer is the people, the people within the network that are choosing to share content on fanfares.

838
00:57:55,858 --> 00:58:03,438
So you might find the specialisms within the network where people choose to specialize in video or they choose to specialize in educational content.

839
00:58:03,698 --> 00:58:10,258
Or maybe they're just people that have really good memes and will just stream a whole lot of memes through to you for a kind of streaming payment.

840
00:58:10,258 --> 00:58:20,078
So I think there's a whole lot of different ways in which this can be developed, improved upon, and certainly a specialization, I think, is something that will happen.

841
00:58:20,338 --> 00:58:32,398
But, yeah, the extent to which it becomes a protocol depends upon how successful it is if there is take up by the audience and by the Bitcoin community and people choose to use these tools within their own applications.

842
00:58:32,398 --> 00:58:47,658
I think the initial way that you and me, Avi, can dip our toes into fanfares, because we already have kind of paywalled content, kind of our own sub-shows.

843
00:58:48,638 --> 00:58:51,118
And with fanfares, you have to be intentional.

844
00:58:51,358 --> 00:58:55,938
So you have to upload this media file, correct, to fanfares?

845
00:58:56,258 --> 00:58:58,898
So it's not like it's blasting through RSS.

846
00:58:58,898 --> 00:59:07,138
So it's something that's a brand new protocol.

847
00:59:08,138 --> 00:59:14,858
You're not going to get the reach like you would if it was a very mature product.

848
00:59:15,438 --> 00:59:25,298
So you kind of have to have a hybrid approach, in my opinion, the way we can touch this is just putting those paywall shows on there.

849
00:59:25,298 --> 00:59:33,678
and then still having that RSS blast for our main weekly conversations.

850
00:59:34,718 --> 00:59:39,238
So kind of – and what that would do is kind of create a pleb wheel

851
00:59:39,238 --> 00:59:42,298
or a flywheel to where people would be listening anywhere,

852
00:59:43,298 --> 00:59:44,738
but they would come to fanfare.

853
00:59:45,218 --> 00:59:48,338
So it's a way to kind of cross-promote everyone,

854
00:59:48,978 --> 00:59:51,138
and really it's the road to plebhood, right?

855
00:59:53,078 --> 00:59:54,518
That sounds exactly right.

856
00:59:54,518 --> 00:59:57,858
I mean, the way to see it is we're not competing with RSS.

857
00:59:58,518 --> 00:59:59,738
RSS will always be there.

858
01:00:01,658 --> 01:00:05,638
We're more sort of in the sub-stack Patreon kind of park, really.

859
01:00:05,818 --> 01:00:06,958
We're a pay-as-you-go Patreon.

860
01:00:08,198 --> 01:00:10,718
So obviously with Patreon, you have to put in your credit card details,

861
01:00:10,818 --> 01:00:13,078
name and address, and commit to the ongoing payments.

862
01:00:13,978 --> 01:00:15,918
With this system, you get to pay with Bitcoin.

863
01:00:16,418 --> 01:00:18,598
You're only paying for what you actually use.

864
01:00:19,098 --> 01:00:20,878
You don't have to worry about going to council

865
01:00:20,878 --> 01:00:24,158
after you've got that one thing that you wanted for a subscription.

866
01:00:24,518 --> 01:00:32,478
So it's a much more user-friendly economic proposition as well as a better UX

867
01:00:32,478 --> 01:00:35,738
because paying with Lightning, you don't even need to ID yourself.

868
01:00:35,958 --> 01:00:38,518
You'll simply just make it a payment with your wallet.

869
01:00:42,098 --> 01:00:45,418
And you can put e-books on it as well, right?

870
01:00:46,198 --> 01:00:48,238
We're not there with e-books yet, but we will be.

871
01:00:48,478 --> 01:00:49,118
Yeah, that's coming.

872
01:00:49,598 --> 01:00:53,658
We need to have the kind of reader UX for that one, which we don't have right now.

873
01:00:53,658 --> 01:00:57,858
Are you going to launch 24 on Fanfare?

874
01:00:58,598 --> 01:01:01,258
Well, I'm almost done with July 18th, the sequel.

875
01:01:01,478 --> 01:01:02,518
So that's why I was asking.

876
01:01:03,898 --> 01:01:05,298
I figured.

877
01:01:05,918 --> 01:01:06,398
Intrigued.

878
01:01:09,758 --> 01:01:16,958
Speaking of, where's the funding at for the Finding Home, Avi?

879
01:01:17,638 --> 01:01:20,398
I don't think we talked about that, and I want to talk about it.

880
01:01:20,398 --> 01:01:26,098
I think on the Angor, I'm at 90%.

881
01:01:26,098 --> 01:01:27,618
So pretty much that.

882
01:01:27,838 --> 01:01:28,998
Okay, 10 more percent.

883
01:01:29,798 --> 01:01:30,018
Yeah.

884
01:01:30,918 --> 01:01:34,378
Anybody listening, I'll put it in the show notes.

885
01:01:34,598 --> 01:01:36,378
Let's get Avi over that 100%.

886
01:01:36,378 --> 01:01:41,138
What we should also put in the show notes is a link to Shot Fiat's book,

887
01:01:42,858 --> 01:01:47,858
the audio book, and to the latest fanfares as well.

888
01:01:47,858 --> 01:01:53,018
So what are the immediate forms of media you're talking about?

889
01:01:53,018 --> 01:01:55,158
It sounds like audiobooks and podcasts.

890
01:01:56,118 --> 01:01:57,138
Anything else?

891
01:01:58,918 --> 01:02:03,438
Yeah, I mean, you can publish notes on FanFares.

892
01:02:03,578 --> 01:02:06,198
So you could do a normal NOSTA note that's encrypted.

893
01:02:07,878 --> 01:02:10,558
So, yeah, we think that's going to be interesting.

894
01:02:10,778 --> 01:02:13,838
Our CTO Arkenox is really enthusiastic about this one

895
01:02:13,838 --> 01:02:16,558
because there's the kind of idea that if everyone on NOSTA

896
01:02:16,558 --> 01:02:21,658
was encrypting every note for one sat, then the whole thing would be encrypted.

897
01:02:22,718 --> 01:02:25,398
And your cost for using that in terms of the normal people,

898
01:02:25,678 --> 01:02:28,038
the normal number of notes you might look at in a day,

899
01:02:28,378 --> 01:02:31,178
you're probably not going to be spending more than about 200 sats,

900
01:02:31,258 --> 01:02:32,498
which is pretty much nothing.

901
01:02:34,138 --> 01:02:38,418
Whereas anyone that wanted to mine the data off of Nostro or scrape the data

902
01:02:38,418 --> 01:02:43,058
and use it for AI training or advertising purposes or anything else,

903
01:02:43,058 --> 01:02:47,498
that it just becomes very cost prohibitive for any form of mass data collection

904
01:02:47,498 --> 01:02:49,478
would become quite cost prohibitive.

905
01:02:49,698 --> 01:02:52,018
So we think that's going to be an interesting one.

906
01:02:53,718 --> 01:02:55,958
It's possible to do it on FanFares right now.

907
01:02:57,098 --> 01:03:00,018
And, yeah, I think Arkenox is going to be leading the challenge on that one

908
01:03:00,018 --> 01:03:02,258
because he's super, super enthusiastic about it.

909
01:03:02,618 --> 01:03:04,118
Where did you meet Arkenox?

910
01:03:05,818 --> 01:03:07,358
He's a good man, by the way.

911
01:03:07,758 --> 01:03:11,178
I've hung out with him twice in real life, two different locations.

912
01:03:11,698 --> 01:03:16,598
We were very lucky to find him because he's a very, very enthusiastic NOSTA person.

913
01:03:16,598 --> 01:03:20,858
How do you control his wild ideas?

914
01:03:21,018 --> 01:03:24,738
Because he's quite the man with his imagination.

915
01:03:26,258 --> 01:03:30,418
Well, I mean, to answer your first question, we were introduced through G Sovereignty.

916
01:03:30,858 --> 01:03:33,818
Because I'd met G Sovereignty in Australia.

917
01:03:34,458 --> 01:03:36,798
It turns out Arkenox was there as well, but I never met him there.

918
01:03:36,798 --> 01:03:41,278
But we were advertising for a new CTO on Nostra.

919
01:03:41,758 --> 01:03:48,518
G saw it and said, oh, I know that Arkanox is looking for something because he'd actually posted up on Nostra as well, saying that he was looking for a new job.

920
01:03:49,298 --> 01:03:54,938
So, yeah, it was a kind of very fortunate encounter because he had the skill that we were looking for.

921
01:03:55,518 --> 01:03:57,038
We had the right position at the right time.

922
01:03:57,097 --> 01:04:00,298
He was working on his Metaverse project already.

923
01:04:00,298 --> 01:04:03,398
but he kind of took the view that

924
01:04:03,398 --> 01:04:04,838
FanFares was something that would

925
01:04:04,838 --> 01:04:07,378
deliver more quickly and could be

926
01:04:07,378 --> 01:04:09,418
a real project that he

927
01:04:09,418 --> 01:04:10,398
could manage and

928
01:04:10,398 --> 01:04:13,438
he was enthusiastic. I think he understood very

929
01:04:13,438 --> 01:04:15,318
quickly about the proposition of what we were doing

930
01:04:15,318 --> 01:04:17,178
and yeah

931
01:04:17,178 --> 01:04:19,597
it was a very lucky find I think

932
01:04:19,597 --> 01:04:21,597
and he's leading the team very well.

933
01:04:23,878 --> 01:04:25,158
The encrypted notes.

934
01:04:25,158 --> 01:04:27,418
Are you still mining the billboard

935
01:04:27,418 --> 01:04:28,458
for PCR

936
01:04:28,458 --> 01:04:30,758
are in the metaverse.

937
01:04:32,858 --> 01:04:33,758
Unfortunately not.

938
01:04:33,758 --> 01:04:34,478
That was a good show.

939
01:04:34,597 --> 01:04:41,838
We had them on short via, we had them on early in our ventures for PubChain Radio, but it

940
01:04:41,838 --> 01:04:45,658
was one of those shows I had to listen to about three different times to kind of really

941
01:04:45,658 --> 01:04:52,518
understand how the real world can connect via hash to the metaverse.

942
01:04:52,518 --> 01:04:57,458
and the metaverse needed that real-world electricity

943
01:04:57,458 --> 01:04:59,698
to make things real in the metaverse.

944
01:04:59,938 --> 01:05:03,718
Yeah, it was a lot of – it was a mental hurdle.

945
01:05:04,578 --> 01:05:09,337
The concepts that he works with there, yeah, they're quite mind-blowing.

946
01:05:09,638 --> 01:05:13,198
But, yeah, if you think of digital space as being, you know,

947
01:05:13,218 --> 01:05:16,538
a whole load of coordinates and every one of them is a NOSTA NPUB,

948
01:05:17,318 --> 01:05:20,258
you know, you have an infinite amount of territory there.

949
01:05:20,258 --> 01:05:22,998
anyone can put a stake in the ground

950
01:05:22,998 --> 01:05:25,278
and it can be

951
01:05:25,278 --> 01:05:27,138
there. Something that they own

952
01:05:27,138 --> 01:05:29,118
that can't be taken away from them and they can build on

953
01:05:29,118 --> 01:05:31,138
that space and create

954
01:05:31,138 --> 01:05:33,238
something that other people want to come and visit

955
01:05:33,238 --> 01:05:33,958
come and explore

956
01:05:33,958 --> 01:05:37,318
and it's building a digital world

957
01:05:37,318 --> 01:05:39,318
effectively but there's room for everyone

958
01:05:39,318 --> 01:05:40,798
it's never going to be full up

959
01:05:40,798 --> 01:05:43,097
it's free to enter and

960
01:05:43,097 --> 01:05:44,818
you can build what you want

961
01:05:44,818 --> 01:05:46,658
if people like it they'll come

962
01:05:46,658 --> 01:05:49,238
if you build it within fanfares they might pay

963
01:05:49,238 --> 01:05:57,518
for it as well so uh it's it really is um a whole new world in my in my opinion and uh yeah there's

964
01:05:57,518 --> 01:06:12,788
there there is a bit of a bit of a sort of an interlock there between what arcanox was doing there before and what fanfares could eventually become If we ultimately become metaverse spaces that people pay to enter then that where it could all go

965
01:06:13,588 --> 01:06:19,108
And when we think about this digital world and we talk about reputation, web of trust,

966
01:06:19,688 --> 01:06:27,228
it's essentially, and it's not, but I always wander to the CCP and the social credit score.

967
01:06:27,228 --> 01:06:32,828
but it really isn't it's you pull the authoritarian figures out of there and you put sovereignty in

968
01:06:32,828 --> 01:06:39,948
there and it's not a bad idea to kind of have a digital digital footprint of reputation right

969
01:06:39,948 --> 01:06:44,328
yeah it's it's it's a difference between centralized and decentralized systems

970
01:06:44,328 --> 01:06:49,028
and if you don't like a credit score you could sign on with a different nostril identity every

971
01:06:49,028 --> 01:06:54,808
time you go on and you will have no credibility whatsoever but you know that's you that's your

972
01:06:54,808 --> 01:06:58,808
your choice if you want to make it or you can choose to build some credibility over time

973
01:06:58,808 --> 01:07:02,408
you can choose to be remembered for what you've done or what you haven't done

974
01:07:02,408 --> 01:07:09,268
um it's it's entirely voluntary that's the thing you know there is no central service it's it's a

975
01:07:09,268 --> 01:07:14,948
completely decentralized reputation system and it's in my opinion it's what the world is missing

976
01:07:14,948 --> 01:07:20,148
you know i think it's what makes the internet a better space because we're not dependent on the

977
01:07:20,148 --> 01:07:26,428
central control to sensor to moderate to choose what we see you know it's the network that's

978
01:07:26,428 --> 01:07:32,448
choosing that that's that's what makes the difference and the way we are able to to

979
01:07:32,448 --> 01:07:37,408
control the firehose of information is through that web of trust through the reputation that

980
01:07:37,408 --> 01:07:43,368
people have built over time that was one of the first epiphanies that i had in nostril when you

981
01:07:43,368 --> 01:07:49,708
actually truly own your identity you own your insect your in pub and it connects and and you

982
01:07:49,708 --> 01:07:54,008
can have that interoperability where you're jumping from client to client and every year,

983
01:07:54,088 --> 01:08:00,668
your whole social graph moves, but it gives you the sense of responsibility. Meaning, uh, as you,

984
01:08:00,788 --> 01:08:05,428
as you spend more time, you build your social graph, you don't want to be an asshole. I mean,

985
01:08:05,488 --> 01:08:12,008
it's almost why Nostra, if you go on there, uh, it's, it's a lot of positivity. Um, you don't

986
01:08:12,008 --> 01:08:17,588
have the, the trolls just kind of disappear, uh, because it's just not worth it. It's just not

987
01:08:17,588 --> 01:08:24,668
worth it. I feel like as humans, when we truly own something, and it is our private property,

988
01:08:25,148 --> 01:08:28,988
we start to treat things differently. And I think that's a powerful way of looking at it.

989
01:08:29,448 --> 01:08:35,908
I think you're absolutely right, QW. It's a much quoted line of with freedom comes

990
01:08:35,908 --> 01:08:39,968
responsibility. I think that what they said in Spider-Man was with great power comes great

991
01:08:39,968 --> 01:08:44,368
responsibility. I don't know if you remember that with Uncle Ben talking to Spider-Man.

992
01:08:44,368 --> 01:08:48,868
But it's, yeah, the way I see it is with freedom comes responsibility.

993
01:08:49,148 --> 01:08:51,768
And the way you achieve freedom is by being responsible.

994
01:08:52,528 --> 01:08:53,648
But, yeah, in reality.

995
01:08:54,248 --> 01:08:59,848
I actually used that meme in my introduction to Nostra to my local Bitcoin.

996
01:09:00,268 --> 01:09:02,388
And I was talking exactly about this.

997
01:09:02,868 --> 01:09:04,768
So, great minds.

998
01:09:05,848 --> 01:09:08,768
It is such a subtle thing to really understand.

999
01:09:08,768 --> 01:09:14,388
But the more you kind of go down that rabbit hole, the more you see that the two are entirely entwined.

1000
01:09:18,168 --> 01:09:27,628
I want to talk a little bit about the Nostra notes that you need to zap to unlock.

1001
01:09:28,628 --> 01:09:30,188
Because that's fascinating to me.

1002
01:09:31,168 --> 01:09:32,988
So let me make sure I understand this.

1003
01:09:32,988 --> 01:09:35,628
I go to fanfares, I sign in with my

1004
01:09:35,628 --> 01:09:37,508
with my

1005
01:09:37,508 --> 01:09:39,468
and then I post an

1006
01:09:39,468 --> 01:09:41,688
encrypted node that can be open for one sat

1007
01:09:41,688 --> 01:09:44,008
is that a

1008
01:09:44,008 --> 01:09:45,548
does that show up on

1009
01:09:45,548 --> 01:09:47,288
Primal or Amethyst as a kind

1010
01:09:47,288 --> 01:09:49,408
one note which people would need

1011
01:09:49,408 --> 01:09:50,368
to zap to open

1012
01:09:50,368 --> 01:09:55,508
right this is where we have to defer to

1013
01:09:55,508 --> 01:09:56,928
Arkenox I think yeah

1014
01:09:56,928 --> 01:09:59,768
I think it will show up

1015
01:09:59,768 --> 01:10:01,528
you can zap it

1016
01:10:01,528 --> 01:10:06,588
but then to actually see the unlocked part of it you'll need to click through into fanfares i think

1017
01:10:06,588 --> 01:10:12,028
that's how it works but um again it's something that would improve with um adoption of our code

1018
01:10:12,028 --> 01:10:17,868
within other apps but i think yeah the really interesting part of that for me is the way for

1019
01:10:17,868 --> 01:10:23,348
it to work in practice is to have an auto unlock feature within a nostra client because if you're

1020
01:10:23,348 --> 01:10:27,888
there having to click on every single note it's just going to be a real pain to use but if you

1021
01:10:27,888 --> 01:10:33,188
were able to set a threshold and say okay anything below the price of five sats i want that to be

1022
01:10:33,188 --> 01:10:39,628
also unlocked and you it's then a question of not about what do you choose to unlock it's who do you

1023
01:10:39,628 --> 01:10:44,928
choose to follow because people that you follow that are regularly regularly publishing notes that

1024
01:10:44,928 --> 01:10:48,928
have a small price on them you're also massively going to have that money taken out of your wallet

1025
01:10:48,928 --> 01:10:56,928
as you scroll through and and the the key sort of aha moment with me for that one uh was sorry

1026
01:10:56,928 --> 01:10:58,488
for me with that one was

1027
01:10:58,488 --> 01:11:01,288
Nick Zabo wrote

1028
01:11:01,288 --> 01:11:02,888
a paper in 1999 about how

1029
01:11:02,888 --> 01:11:04,568
microtransactions

1030
01:11:04,568 --> 01:11:07,348
could be very difficult because of the

1031
01:11:07,348 --> 01:11:09,048
mental transaction cost and people

1032
01:11:09,048 --> 01:11:10,868
in practice wouldn't want to pay

1033
01:11:10,868 --> 01:11:13,048
for a small amount

1034
01:11:13,048 --> 01:11:15,288
of content with a small

1035
01:11:15,288 --> 01:11:17,028
price because they just don't want to have the

1036
01:11:17,028 --> 01:11:18,908
mental overhead of thinking about it

1037
01:11:18,908 --> 01:11:21,328
and that's something that's often been cited to me

1038
01:11:21,328 --> 01:11:23,308
when I've been building this app and talking to people

1039
01:11:23,308 --> 01:11:25,268
about it, they say microtransactions never work

1040
01:11:25,268 --> 01:11:26,728
because of the mental transaction cost

1041
01:11:26,728 --> 01:11:36,948
But if you actually engineer this kind of NOSTA client where you've got that option to auto unlock your mental energy overhead, is there nothing?

1042
01:11:37,068 --> 01:11:39,028
Because you've just made the choice about who you want to follow.

1043
01:11:39,668 --> 01:11:40,828
They're doing the curation.

1044
01:11:41,088 --> 01:11:47,688
You're outsourcing all of the thought energy to the curators that are choosing what they want to post, what they want to repost.

1045
01:11:48,508 --> 01:11:53,008
And then over time, you might find that one person is just wasting your time and your money and you choose to unfollow them.

1046
01:11:53,008 --> 01:11:57,328
maybe you see a repost from somebody else and you're finding a new a new channel you want to

1047
01:11:57,328 --> 01:12:01,848
open up to yourself there but it's it's all part of that curation of your own experience that

1048
01:12:01,848 --> 01:12:10,228
i think is the real key to noster it's it's not a central platform that's pushing advertising on

1049
01:12:10,228 --> 01:12:15,228
you because they want to keep you on there it's you choosing what you see and the money needs to

1050
01:12:15,228 --> 01:12:19,608
be there because you know without advertising how do we pay for the infrastructure for the

1051
01:12:19,608 --> 01:12:24,548
relays and everything and I think that's where we go over time as we get more flow of sats through

1052
01:12:24,548 --> 01:12:29,588
the systems there will be an opportunity for clients and relays to take a percentage of the

1053
01:12:29,588 --> 01:12:34,148
flow for themselves and people will be happy to pay that and if they're using one particular app

1054
01:12:34,148 --> 01:12:38,588
they know that a percentage is getting getting rekt off to the app and if they don't feel like

1055
01:12:38,588 --> 01:12:41,588
they're getting good service with the app they can move to another one and take their entire

1056
01:12:41,588 --> 01:12:47,108
history and connections with them so it's it is sovereignty to the individual

1057
01:12:47,108 --> 01:12:55,388
the other one that always gets posted that always gets uh pointed out to me is uh well if you have

1058
01:12:55,388 --> 01:12:59,708
something going to paywall then people are just going to steal it and give it away for free

1059
01:12:59,708 --> 01:13:05,508
and again that's a key part of the system for us um with the referral splits we believe that's an

1060
01:13:05,508 --> 01:13:12,608
incentive system that will prevent people from doing that because in practice if you know you

1061
01:13:12,608 --> 01:13:19,168
You can download a free copy of the unencrypted file once you've paid for it,

1062
01:13:19,248 --> 01:13:21,168
and you can share that with people you know.

1063
01:13:21,928 --> 01:13:26,668
But if you were to publish that on Nostra or Twitter or anywhere,

1064
01:13:26,888 --> 01:13:30,508
then you're doing the work of promoting for the creator,

1065
01:13:30,688 --> 01:13:31,868
but you're not getting paid for it.

1066
01:13:31,868 --> 01:13:36,128
So you have the option to get a paid link and give them the paid link instead.

1067
01:13:37,028 --> 01:13:41,088
Surely that would be the more logical thing for 99% of people to do,

1068
01:13:41,088 --> 01:13:44,888
would be to just share the paid link, become part of the system,

1069
01:13:45,208 --> 01:13:48,708
to secure the system rather than attacking it because that's more profitable.

1070
01:13:50,248 --> 01:13:53,308
Yeah, it's the economically rational thing to do, for sure.

1071
01:13:55,088 --> 01:14:00,008
Avi, did you know that we were the very first Nostra signed podcast?

1072
01:14:00,788 --> 01:14:01,888
I did know that.

1073
01:14:02,768 --> 01:14:05,848
Yeah. Is that still a thing, Shorfiat?

1074
01:14:07,328 --> 01:14:10,348
Basically, I made a handshake.

1075
01:14:10,348 --> 01:14:15,628
some on the back end of podcasting 2.0 essentially.

1076
01:14:16,588 --> 01:14:17,968
Do you want to talk about that?

1077
01:14:19,488 --> 01:14:23,428
Yeah, that was the first podcast to be posted with that kind,

1078
01:14:23,648 --> 01:14:25,228
that sort of Nostra note kind.

1079
01:14:25,728 --> 01:14:27,068
So you have that record.

1080
01:14:27,128 --> 01:14:30,108
That was another Arcanox construction.

1081
01:14:30,488 --> 01:14:32,348
Yeah, we're going to get to Arcanox territory here.

1082
01:14:32,348 --> 01:14:34,828
I was a developer 20 years ago,

1083
01:14:35,048 --> 01:14:37,368
but I haven't written a line of code for a long time.

1084
01:14:37,668 --> 01:14:40,288
So I'm more on the economic side of this.

1085
01:14:40,348 --> 01:14:43,548
That's what really makes me interested is the game theory

1086
01:14:43,548 --> 01:14:48,448
and how we can have new systems that generate better outcomes

1087
01:14:48,448 --> 01:14:52,268
through really just using Bitcoin and Oster, basically.

1088
01:14:52,468 --> 01:14:54,948
It's the tools that we've never had and we've always needed.

1089
01:14:59,468 --> 01:15:03,368
So, Shotfiat, you have, on a separate note,

1090
01:15:03,368 --> 01:15:07,708
you have a podcast with our friend of the show, Ben Ark.

1091
01:15:07,708 --> 01:15:13,908
when did that begin and how many episodes deep are you

1092
01:15:13,908 --> 01:15:22,328
we uh we've done about six or seven episodes ben's been very busy recently so i don't know

1093
01:15:22,328 --> 01:15:27,628
if he's got all of them posted out on on youtube but yeah we we just thought it would be interesting

1094
01:15:27,628 --> 01:15:33,748
to do a little kind of uh half an hour what's going on in the bitcoin nostra space we've had

1095
01:15:33,748 --> 01:15:36,108
some guests on there, yourself, Abby.

1096
01:15:36,748 --> 01:15:47,858
I think Jeff G been on there with his white noise messaging service which I looking forward to using because I entirely sick of Telegram and WhatsApp But yeah I mean the Noster messaging service

1097
01:15:47,858 --> 01:15:48,598
is going to be great.

1098
01:15:48,818 --> 01:15:51,698
So yeah, we've been working on that.

1099
01:15:51,798 --> 01:15:52,978
Just review the news,

1100
01:15:53,158 --> 01:15:54,738
see what's happening in the Bitcoin Noster space

1101
01:15:54,738 --> 01:15:58,438
and chat about it over YouTube.

1102
01:15:58,678 --> 01:15:59,818
Yeah, it's been nice.

1103
01:15:59,898 --> 01:16:01,158
It's been a good way to keep up with Ben.

1104
01:16:01,398 --> 01:16:03,118
He's always got interesting stuff going on.

1105
01:16:03,878 --> 01:16:05,238
We don't always agree on stuff,

1106
01:16:05,298 --> 01:16:06,378
but that's what makes it interesting.

1107
01:16:06,378 --> 01:16:12,218
and yeah, I think it's been a nice little practice run

1108
01:16:12,218 --> 01:16:14,838
for creating content, getting a feel of how it works.

1109
01:16:19,338 --> 01:16:19,958
Love it.

1110
01:16:20,438 --> 01:16:23,058
Yeah, Ben is a busy guy.

1111
01:16:23,878 --> 01:16:25,778
And you too, right, Short Fiat,

1112
01:16:25,978 --> 01:16:27,398
you have a lot going on as well.

1113
01:16:28,858 --> 01:16:29,458
Yes, yeah.

1114
01:16:29,458 --> 01:16:32,758
The episodes, I don't see episodes, right.

1115
01:16:32,758 --> 01:16:40,278
so yeah this project is is taking up a huge amount of my time and it has done for

1116
01:16:40,278 --> 01:16:45,638
for years now and it probably will continue but for years to come it's my main focus and i'm

1117
01:16:45,638 --> 01:16:51,558
very hopeful as to where we can go with it um i've got more book ideas after this book i

1118
01:16:51,558 --> 01:16:57,638
i yeah yeah i'm already starting to write the next book so um yeah we're we're in a process

1119
01:16:57,638 --> 01:17:01,978
now whether the app's going to get better we'll take feedback from anyone that uses it please feel

1120
01:17:01,978 --> 01:17:03,798
free to message us on our

1121
01:17:03,798 --> 01:17:05,918
Fanfares Nostra. We do want

1122
01:17:05,918 --> 01:17:07,978
to hear what you would like to see on there, what you

1123
01:17:07,978 --> 01:17:09,978
think could work better. And yeah, we're going to

1124
01:17:09,978 --> 01:17:10,638
continue to build.

1125
01:17:15,058 --> 01:17:15,798
Does Ben

1126
01:17:15,798 --> 01:17:18,118
own Nostra.com? It's Ben,

1127
01:17:18,178 --> 01:17:19,378
right? He does, yeah.

1128
01:17:20,298 --> 01:17:21,998
He was offered five million for

1129
01:17:21,998 --> 01:17:23,838
it. Was he?

1130
01:17:24,578 --> 01:17:24,858
Yeah.

1131
01:17:26,138 --> 01:17:26,958
What happened?

1132
01:17:28,278 --> 01:17:30,558
Avi, if you own Nostra.com,

1133
01:17:30,938 --> 01:17:31,898
Avi, if

1134
01:17:31,898 --> 01:17:42,038
you own Nostra.com what's what's your price come on I don't know actually uh I might I mean five

1135
01:17:42,038 --> 01:17:48,518
million is nothing to sneeze at I'll tell you that did we ever ask Ben that's a lot of sats man

1136
01:17:48,518 --> 01:17:55,318
I feel QW we might have even talked with Ben about this when he was on the show over a year ago

1137
01:17:55,318 --> 01:18:01,678
and I just can't remember what the answer was yeah I'm I'm drawing a blank too but it's it's

1138
01:18:01,678 --> 01:18:03,178
it's itching in my brain.

1139
01:18:03,898 --> 01:18:06,298
I might have to go back and see.

1140
01:18:08,218 --> 01:18:11,718
That was always interesting to me because he did put what,

1141
01:18:12,578 --> 01:18:14,478
he offered it to Jack.

1142
01:18:15,398 --> 01:18:16,698
Is that who it was?

1143
01:18:16,798 --> 01:18:18,658
Was it 6 million or 10 million?

1144
01:18:19,838 --> 01:18:20,618
I don't know.

1145
01:18:20,858 --> 01:18:22,738
Essentially, he just wanted to go to good hands.

1146
01:18:25,418 --> 01:18:27,878
Yeah, I think Jack Dorsey would be pretty good hands.

1147
01:18:28,198 --> 01:18:28,338
Yeah.

1148
01:18:29,118 --> 01:18:31,518
He supported the Nostra project quite early on, didn't he?

1149
01:18:31,678 --> 01:18:32,838
with some funding.

1150
01:18:34,138 --> 01:18:35,558
He's definitely on board with it.

1151
01:18:38,858 --> 01:18:40,318
I don't know if that actually happened.

1152
01:18:42,078 --> 01:18:42,558
Right.

1153
01:18:43,838 --> 01:18:46,238
Anything else you would like to plug

1154
01:18:46,238 --> 01:18:49,098
apart from Fanfares and your audiobook?

1155
01:18:52,498 --> 01:18:53,258
I know.

1156
01:18:53,398 --> 01:18:53,558
I mean,

1157
01:18:53,558 --> 01:18:55,738
I think

1158
01:18:55,738 --> 01:18:58,858
that's

1159
01:18:58,858 --> 01:19:01,798
it's really a case of

1160
01:19:01,798 --> 01:19:03,858
we're just getting

1161
01:19:03,858 --> 01:19:05,698
started with this. I think that's the main thing to say

1162
01:19:05,698 --> 01:19:07,378
is watch this space because I think

1163
01:19:07,378 --> 01:19:09,678
the whole Bitcoin NOSA space is

1164
01:19:09,678 --> 01:19:10,538
only going to get bigger.

1165
01:19:13,078 --> 01:19:13,818
Interested to know

1166
01:19:13,818 --> 01:19:15,638
what do you guys think of Bitcoin treasury

1167
01:19:15,638 --> 01:19:16,138
companies?

1168
01:19:18,498 --> 01:19:19,758
I hope they burn.

1169
01:19:22,838 --> 01:19:23,778
I'd like to burn

1170
01:19:23,778 --> 01:19:24,278
the suits.

1171
01:19:25,138 --> 01:19:26,058
Me and Avi

1172
01:19:26,058 --> 01:19:29,078
it smells funny

1173
01:19:29,078 --> 01:19:30,158
that's it

1174
01:19:30,158 --> 01:19:32,758
a lot of these are built off

1175
01:19:32,758 --> 01:19:33,658
shell companies

1176
01:19:33,658 --> 01:19:36,358
one hotel

1177
01:19:36,358 --> 01:19:38,658
and all of a sudden they're a big treasury company

1178
01:19:38,658 --> 01:19:40,818
I don't know, it's funny to me

1179
01:19:40,818 --> 01:19:43,578
Avi, what's your thoughts?

1180
01:19:43,998 --> 01:19:45,018
QW, we asked

1181
01:19:45,018 --> 01:19:46,678
what else he's working on

1182
01:19:46,678 --> 01:19:48,598
or what else he wants to plug

1183
01:19:48,598 --> 01:19:50,998
and he asked us about Bitcoin treasury companies

1184
01:19:50,998 --> 01:19:51,898
it sounds like

1185
01:19:51,898 --> 01:19:53,818
he's testing the waters

1186
01:19:53,818 --> 01:19:55,638
for stopping well.

1187
01:19:55,638 --> 01:19:57,718
I can tell you what I think of him if you want.

1188
01:20:00,058 --> 01:20:02,438
I think there's a right way to speculate.

1189
01:20:04,198 --> 01:20:06,698
There's a right way to speculative attack.

1190
01:20:08,078 --> 01:20:11,258
Like I told Avi before the show,

1191
01:20:11,418 --> 01:20:13,998
it feels like ordinals in a Wall Street blanket

1192
01:20:13,998 --> 01:20:17,118
is what I kind of thought about it.

1193
01:20:18,078 --> 01:20:18,998
Yeah, it's just tough.

1194
01:20:20,238 --> 01:20:21,558
Something doesn't feel right,

1195
01:20:21,618 --> 01:20:23,298
but maybe it's just some of the players in it,

1196
01:20:23,298 --> 01:20:24,678
Not all of them.

1197
01:20:25,458 --> 01:20:34,318
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because there's been a bit of a sort of divide within the Bitcoin space about whether Bitcoin is a store of value or a currency.

1198
01:20:35,278 --> 01:20:44,218
And the whole kind of micro strategy Bitcoin treasury company thing is it's a kind of manifestation of that store of value kind of argument, isn't it?

1199
01:20:44,278 --> 01:20:45,858
You know, it's saying this is the use case.

1200
01:20:46,058 --> 01:20:47,058
It's price goes up.

1201
01:20:47,158 --> 01:20:48,678
It's make my share price go up.

1202
01:20:48,678 --> 01:20:53,558
but yeah I can confirm I have no plans to launch a Bitcoin treasury company

1203
01:20:53,558 --> 01:20:58,518
and for me I'm very much on the side of Bitcoin as a currency

1204
01:20:58,518 --> 01:21:01,238
and yeah okay any currency is a store of value as well

1205
01:21:01,238 --> 01:21:04,958
particularly one that is finite and clearly identifiable

1206
01:21:04,958 --> 01:21:10,778
but yeah you know my path is in the currency space

1207
01:21:10,778 --> 01:21:15,518
and I feel like so much of the Bitcoin community is looking at the treasury companies

1208
01:21:15,518 --> 01:21:20,938
I feel like I'm kind of almost on my own, doing my own thing while the crowd is going in another direction.

1209
01:21:21,198 --> 01:21:23,218
And I'm convinced they're wrong about where they're going.

1210
01:21:23,358 --> 01:21:29,418
But I'm going to carry on in my direction and keep on building the use case of Bitcoin as a currency of the Internet.

1211
01:21:30,318 --> 01:21:32,078
You're not the only one who shot Fiat.

1212
01:21:32,798 --> 01:21:33,398
Let me tell you.

1213
01:21:35,698 --> 01:21:36,538
Stick on the Oscar.

1214
01:21:36,538 --> 01:21:37,678
That's it. We're all short Fiat.

1215
01:21:37,678 --> 01:21:48,698
I think the biggest uh-oh was when Saylor posted on Twitter all the boxes of pizza on Pizza Day.

1216
01:21:48,998 --> 01:21:51,118
And he said, we bought all this with USD.

1217
01:21:51,798 --> 01:21:52,818
It's like, no.

1218
01:21:53,538 --> 01:21:55,418
What are you doing, man?

1219
01:21:57,178 --> 01:21:59,118
So, yeah, digital real estate.

1220
01:21:59,118 --> 01:22:04,178
I'd rather mine that real estate with Arcanox

1221
01:22:04,178 --> 01:22:07,698
than actually use my own Bitcoin for it

1222
01:22:07,698 --> 01:22:08,738
so there you go

1223
01:22:08,738 --> 01:22:15,158
Michael Saylor is very very popular

1224
01:22:15,158 --> 01:22:17,478
in the media space

1225
01:22:17,478 --> 01:22:22,078
I listen to the detail of what people say

1226
01:22:22,078 --> 01:22:24,878
I don't find there's a great deal of substance

1227
01:22:24,878 --> 01:22:27,018
that's my view

1228
01:22:27,018 --> 01:22:38,678
anything else for our guest qw from you no that that's it i'm actually really looking forward to

1229
01:22:38,678 --> 01:22:46,378
uh messing around with fanfares uh and as a creator um but both on the creator and the

1230
01:22:46,378 --> 01:22:52,498
consumer side so uh looking forward to it and uh all the links we talked about will be in the show

1231
01:22:52,498 --> 01:23:00,298
notes and uh everybody i you know what avi we i think we peaked at 75 listeners today and i can't

1232
01:23:00,298 --> 01:23:07,518
help but wonder if some of that is is the expansion into fountain um but yeah it's it's it's it's

1233
01:23:07,518 --> 01:23:13,678
interesting we just we hit a uh we hit a record on uh on zap dot stream today yeah close to a

1234
01:23:13,678 --> 01:23:21,698
zap dot stream oh just do we have yeah yeah because the old uh nostr ness uh we we got up there too

1235
01:23:21,698 --> 01:23:25,338
I think it was 150 on NostraNest.

1236
01:23:26,478 --> 01:23:28,378
Anyway, it's just an interesting thing to watch.

1237
01:23:29,078 --> 01:23:31,118
You know, you're just sitting there not expecting it.

1238
01:23:32,438 --> 01:23:34,198
Expect the unexpected, I suppose.

1239
01:23:34,618 --> 01:23:37,558
So, yeah, we're a small space, very niche community,

1240
01:23:37,698 --> 01:23:39,638
but a bunch of psychopaths, so I'm here for it.

1241
01:23:39,818 --> 01:23:41,538
And nothing else.

1242
01:23:41,798 --> 01:23:42,618
That's my rant.

1243
01:23:44,198 --> 01:23:44,998
For sure.

1244
01:23:44,998 --> 01:23:54,178
and folks i would urge you to check out short fiat's audiobook it is unfortunately short

1245
01:23:54,178 --> 01:24:00,378
fiat you've said you've trimmed some of the sections which are fantastic but whatever is

1246
01:24:00,378 --> 01:24:09,238
there is still an amazing manifesto for a new internet it lays out the problem in a very clear

1247
01:24:09,238 --> 01:24:11,598
way and it talks about the solution

1248
01:24:11,598 --> 01:24:13,638
and I would urge all of you to

1249
01:24:13,638 --> 01:24:15,418
check it out, check out FanFares

1250
01:24:15,418 --> 01:24:17,198
QW and I will be doing that

1251
01:24:17,198 --> 01:24:19,718
as well, we'll have the links in the show notes

1252
01:24:19,718 --> 01:24:21,038
and

1253
01:24:21,038 --> 01:24:23,538
thank you Shot Fiat for

1254
01:24:23,538 --> 01:24:25,698
educating us

1255
01:24:25,698 --> 01:24:27,738
on all of this and all the work

1256
01:24:27,738 --> 01:24:29,838
you've done and looking forward to

1257
01:24:29,838 --> 01:24:30,698
talking soon

1258
01:24:30,698 --> 01:24:33,778
Thank you very

1259
01:24:33,778 --> 01:24:35,838
much for having me on, it's been an absolute

1260
01:24:35,838 --> 01:24:37,358
pleasure to talk to you both

1261
01:24:37,358 --> 01:24:40,038
and to have some time to talk about what we've been building.

1262
01:24:40,558 --> 01:24:43,958
And I'm sure Arconauts would like to come back on sometime soon as well

1263
01:24:43,958 --> 01:24:45,598
and tell you more about the metaverse.

1264
01:24:46,438 --> 01:24:48,258
We'll do a five-hour format.

1265
01:24:48,258 --> 01:24:49,138
That is a thing.

1266
01:24:50,618 --> 01:24:51,738
A thing for the future.

1267
01:24:52,018 --> 01:24:53,258
We're all going to be there one day.

1268
01:24:54,038 --> 01:25:00,058
A three-part series as we zoom in.

1269
01:25:00,598 --> 01:25:01,798
Well, thank you, everyone.

1270
01:25:02,058 --> 01:25:03,938
Thank you for tuning in to Pleb Chain Radio.

1271
01:25:03,938 --> 01:25:06,718
If you appreciate us as much as we appreciate you,

1272
01:25:06,718 --> 01:25:11,798
listen on fountain listen on fanfare now and consider hitting the subscribe button

1273
01:25:11,798 --> 01:25:16,358
until next week gentle plebs farewell goodbye