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Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses

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on the intersection of NOSTER and Bitcoin protocols.

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Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current

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thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,

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doers, and plebs.

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All right, we are live.

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Welcome, gentle pioneers, to the lightning-laced airwaves.

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This is episode 141 of Plep Chain Radio.

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Today is Friday, the 12th of December, and it is 3.04pm on the east coast of the United States at the time of recording, 12.12.

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That is a nice day.

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We have a fun show ahead of you.

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Eric F.J., de-commerce evangelist and creator of Conjuet Market, a newly launched decentralized marketplace on Noster, joins us to talk about that and much, much more.

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Another reason why I am excited about this episode is because I will be debuting a Valley for Valley music segment here.

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I've picked a great song by an independent artist.

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So if you are listening to the show on an app that supports Podcasting 2.0 and you want to support the artist, make sure you hit that boost button during the song's duration.

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At which point, 90% of what you boost will go directly to the band.

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This is a new experimental feature we're testing on our hosting platform Fountain, where this song shows up as its own independent chapter, and the boost split of 90% is localized to that chapter.

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Stay tuned to find out what the song is.

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and all the more reason, folks,

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that if you are listening to this show on Apple or Spotify,

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first of all, thank you for listening,

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but I would urge you to hit pause

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and switch over to the Fountain Podcasting app

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where you can earn some stats

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and support the value-for-value revolution as you listen.

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And while you're there,

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we would appreciate it if you hit that subscribe button.

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Your support helps keep our mics warm

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and this podcast ad-free.

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This show is streamed live on Zap.Stream and any other Nostra client that supports streaming such as Amethyst, Nostra, Fountain, Primal and Nostria.

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July 18, the sequel to my first novel, 24, is now available for purchase.

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This is not a book about Bitcoin. It is a soaring philosophical epic disguised as an action thriller.

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this is the most important and meaningful work I've ever created

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and I do hope you check it out

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the link will be in the show notes

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also 24, my first book, the prequel to July 18

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is going to have its second edition

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coming out very very soon in the next two or three days

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so keep a lookout for that

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the link for that as well will be in the show notes

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the Nos Fabrica Wattathon is underway

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with the fourth group call taking place earlier this week.

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We've had some excellent discussions so far on Web of Trust.

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These calls are very well attended, 20 to 30 people on the live call itself,

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and then another 30, 40 people listening in on the live stream.

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The teams are still forming, and it's not too late to join in if you're listening to this.

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We're inviting builders, philosophers, marketers, you name it,

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from all walks of Nostra and Bitcoin

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to participate and build out open source web of trust solutions.

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The prize pool is 50 million sats of 50 million bitcoins,

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as the kids these days like to say,

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the largest Bitcoin prize pool that I'm aware of in recent memory.

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More info at nosfabrica.com slash whatathon.

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That's W-O-T-A-T-H-O-N.

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And for our sermon today, it is Reclaiming the Bazaar.

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Markets began as conversations.

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Just people in a square, arguing over the price of grain,

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while the smell of cumin and charcoal drifted through the air.

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In the old bazaar, price was a story.

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A storm at sea, a failed harvest, a caravan arriving early.

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You looked the other person in the eye.

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You weighed their words, their track record, their reputation.

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Then you shook hands.

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Price was not just a sterile number.

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But somewhere, we outsourced that entire ritual.

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We traded bazaars for platforms that promised efficiency and scale

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and woke up inside malls built from code, from JavaScript,

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where the stalls stretch to infinity and somehow everything still feels the same.

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Middlemen became the high priest of price discovery.

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Algorithms decide what you see.

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Payment processors decide what you're allowed to buy.

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Ad auctions decide who is allowed to be heard.

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Price is supposed to be a language.

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Information about scarcity, desire, time and risk.

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When middlemen meddle, they scramble the signal.

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Fees distort it.

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Censorship deletes it.

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Personalized feeds mutate into something optimized for addiction, not truth.

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But the bazaar never actually died.

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The bazaar is an idea more than it is a physical, or indeed a digital space.

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And it's an idea that's been waiting for protocols strong enough to hold it.

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Bitcoin gives us money that does not report to a boss

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Just a neutral, incorruptible ledger open to anyone

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Noster gives us a social layer that feels like a new kind of town square

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You arrive with a key pair and a voice

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You publish relays no one owns

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Identity becomes a trail of behavior, speech and value

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Sprinkle in the magic ingredient of Web of Trust

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and it starts to look familiar.

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In the old market, your aunt told you which stall to skip.

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Your cousin swore by one particular baker.

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Today, you see who your friends follow,

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who they zap, who they vouch for with their sats and their attention.

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Reputation becomes portable.

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If one marketplace misbehaves,

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you and your history simply walk out keys in hand.

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This is the chance to reclaim the bazaar, to let sound money, open protocols and human trust rebuild markets that feel honest, alive and human again.

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The stalls are opening and we're joined today by someone who's leading the way.

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Eric F.J., welcome to Plep Chain Radio.

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Thank you, brother. Damn, that was beautiful. I don't even know if I need to talk after that one.

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I got to write some of that down, man.

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I appreciate you saying that, Eric.

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So, you know, for folks who are unfamiliar with you and with Conduit, but maybe we start with you.

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Who is Eric and how did Eric find Nostra?

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Eric found Nostra through Bitcoin a couple of years back.

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I'm actually a professional from a completely different industry.

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I come from the construction industry.

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I found Bitcoin in 2018 and have been trying to find a way to get involved ever since.

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And then Nostra came along and we tried to, basically we tried to create a coffee shop

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to sell something for SATs and saw that there was kind of a need for infrastructure.

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So we dove in and started building something for ourselves.

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And that turned into something that we realized might be useful for other people as well.

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And as the magic of Nostra goes, as we started to sort of publish, you know, things around the original marketplace,

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a spec which was NIP 15, some good people looped us in.

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And they brought us into a bigger group of people that are actually building marketplaces on a different shared specification, so NIP99.

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And so while I appreciate you said we're leading the way, I want to be honest and say that I don't know if we are.

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We've got some great peers in this space like Plebeian Market, Shopster Markets, Cypher Space.

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these are the folks that have brought us into the fold

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and allowed us to contribute

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and help build this collective bazaar with them.

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Shout out to Chief Monkey and Calvadev and others for sure.

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Chief Monkey, by the way, a friend of the show

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and an amazing artist apart from being an incredible innovator

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with Plebeian Munk.

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Yeah.

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I hope that that is a person that I get to connect with in person one day.

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I really value everybody in this space and want to connect with them deeper rather than just online.

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Hey, Noster's cool too.

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Yeah, so you talk about your profiles as d-commerce, and I've seen that term used informally in one or two other places.

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Do you want to talk about what – actually, is that a term of art or is that something you just made up?

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But in any event, what does de-commerce mean to you?

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De is a shorthand form of simply saying decentralized e or even just decentralized commerce And if I were to give a general definition of it it would be using shared protocols permissionless protocols

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to try to mimic the benefits of what we've been getting from the centralized services in an incorruptible way.

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that would be like the high level definition if i were to get more specific we're obviously

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using nostr to do this we've built you know this shared specification what we're calling

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the gamma e-commerce sorry the gamma markets e-commerce extension on top of nip 99 and so

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what that does is that nip 99 for anyone who's not familiar is the spec that basically allows

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you to do Craigslist style listings on Noster. It's really simple. It works a little bit similarly

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to, you know, how long form posts are made in terms of the properties, but it doesn't have,

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it's not overly specific in how it, in how it handles certain things. So it needed a bit more

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juice to make it ready for, you know, scaling like, like a store because we don't, the goal

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here is we don't want everybody to have to handle everything manually. And we want to make a

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decentralized e-commerce flow that is as smooth and competitive in terms of user experience with

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the centralized flow. So I think there will be a lot of people who are, including myself, by the

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way, who are unfamiliar with how the commerce or the, I guess, the shopping spec works on Nostra.

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You said NIP 99. Is that basically an event that contains some information about the product that's

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being sold, the buyer, sorry, who the seller is, the price, and other such important pieces of

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information? Yeah, that's exactly it. So mimicking, you know, how Nostra does events for all kinds of

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social data, now we have an event for a product that you then post.

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That product has some very relatively simple attributes.

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What we've done is we've specified an order flow that comes along,

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a potential order flow that comes along with that product.

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So these are basically a, we use NIP 17 private DMs as a channel

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to handle this entire flow.

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And all we've done really is we've specified certain data structures for these events and how they'll flow from client to relay and relay back to whoever's client it is.

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Once we've actually, we've already done this, but so since we've standardized these events, we can now have multiple marketplaces, you know, going to, it's a many, it becomes a many to many relationship instead of a, you know, many to one in terms of like an Amazon type relationship.

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So in this new world with these channels, what we can do is we can have a decentralized product pool that just sits out there, just like Nostra events, and you can choose to look at that product pool through any type of lens that you want to.

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One of the lenses that we've recently released is Conduit Market.

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Another lens might be Shopster.

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Another lens soon will be Plebeian.

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They're actually getting up to NIP99 spec and I think are going to be dropping a really, really, really cool release sometime soon.

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Once we're all pointing at the same spec, this product, this sort of infinite store on the relays now exists.

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And you can choose to filter that any which way you want.

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You could even have an individual store that is fully Nosterized, and that's just filtering for a specific merchant's event.

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You could have a grouping of products like, let's say, you were into shoes, and you wanted to make the coolest shoe market on Noster.

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You can make that.

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So right now, there's a few teams that are deciding to put our specific lenses on it, our specific user experience on it, and building out the tooling around that.

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But ultimately, that's all going to be shared, and anyone could remix and replay that in any way that they want.

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And no matter how a customer finds a product, they're always going to be connected one-to-one with a merchant through NIP 17 DMs,

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and then through payments, sorry, for payments, we're talking Bitcoin, so that is also directly peer-to-peer as well.

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so i'm trying to think about this from the perspective of a seller and by the way the

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way you explained it made complete sense right someone signs and and this event that's whatever

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the event kind is that's specified under nip 99 and it just lives on relays anyone can do that

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and then you have these quote-unquote storefronts right or lenses if you will or as you call them

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Shopster, Conduit, Plebeian that allow you, you know, they have their own unique take. Maybe they

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use some kind of web of trust filter, right? And so they will have one listing. So Plebeian will

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have one listing, Conduit presumably will have a different listing, all feeding off the same

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fire hose, if you will, of these NIP99 events. Now, if I'm a seller, right, I obviously I need

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a client which allows me to sign these NIP99 events, right? And presumably, Primal and Darmus

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are not those. I mean, I don't think they have the ability to yet to sign these events. So I need to

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go to an actual client that is built to sign these events. Is all of this fair so far?

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Correct. And you're also correct in that there is no reason in the future, once we've got the

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flow down and some of the tooling down that these other social clients couldn't incorporate

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certain marketplace listings into their clients as well. But currently, I think that that's the

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state. I do believe Amethyst does do NIP99 listings, but it doesn't have the full gamma

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e-commerce kind of superpowers on top of it. I'm sure that's coming because Vitor adds everything

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to Amethyst. It is the true super app, the Swiss Army knife of Nostra. So where would I, so today,

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right, if I wanted to sign a NIP99 event and I had some, and presumably I would only want to sign

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one if I had something to sell, correct? Where would I go? Right now, I would recommend Shopster

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is currently probably the best place to go sign a NIP99 event. What Conduit has done is we've

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split the scope into two different applications.

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So there's the shopper side of the equation and the seller side of the equation.

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We have done the shopper side of the equation.

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So if you post something on Noster, or sorry, on Shopster, the magic that you'll see is

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that it actually can show up on Conduit as well.

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That's kind of the proof of concept right now.

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And again, soon Plebeian is going to be in the same condition.

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but um yeah i at this point i would recommend uh shopster and shout out to calvadev for that but

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we are also working on the conduit merchant portal which would which you know for us our goal was to

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make a central central but not centralized place to for merchants to manage their their product pool

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so i'm seeing i think it seems like a lot of the key folks are in the live stream chat

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the soap miner shardrack so i'll and i actually want to talk about their unique angles here right

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so there's the soap miner today is he used i and i don't know this uh for a fact or not is he using

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the 99 events i'd have to check with him i've i'd have i haven't seen his products on on in the pool

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recently but that doesn't mean they're not there somewhere else okay and then i guess we'll just

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jump into this this bit as well right which is you there you know there might be some vendors who i

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just trust out of the box because i've interacted them with them on our store i actually know them

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in real life right uh so i'm a buyer and i i know the seller through like you know some kind of

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physical proof there um and that's fine in in that scenario i'm more than happy to give my personal

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address and get the product delivered to me.

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But when this really takes off, and there are multiple sellers selling their wares on

212
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Noster, even if there's a web of trust filter, maybe that points to some kind of good reputation

213
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in shipping and delivery and so on.

214
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I, as a user, might not want to give my address up to someone.

215
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I'd rather keep that information private.

216
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And I don't know if you're familiar, but Shadrach is building A to B, the onion-routed physical mailing.

217
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Is that something that's on the cards in the near future?

218
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I had the chance to meet Shadrach, actually, when I met you over at Nostraville.

219
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but um and and we we chatted a bit about how that might be integrated the shipping problem is is a

220
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huge huge challenge um because we we do want to find a way that uh that we can maximize uh privacy

221
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privacy in shipping and i wouldn't say that that is is solved yet i'm really grateful that people

222
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like shadrack are are working on that issue we're not currently focused on that um right now yeah

223
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you would have to sort of trust the individual merchant with certain data as a user.

224
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Now, there's strategies you can implement as a consumer to sort of mitigate that,

225
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like delivering something to your local post office, for example,

226
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if you're super concerned about privacy.

227
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But that is not something that is currently implemented.

228
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I really interested in exploring that in the future but right now we just trying to scale up the product pool itself and leave that responsibility Currently if I being honest

229
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we're leaving that responsibility with the buyers and the sellers of how they want to handle that.

230
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At the very least, the connections are private between those two parties.

231
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so that in my mind increases the the potential attack surface for someone to want to exploit that

232
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but you know I do understand there are concerns with you know individual merchants being you know

233
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becoming like honeypots and different things like that so that is something we have to we have to

234
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definitely look at long-term short-term conduit specifically is not focused on that I hope other

235
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people are right now though and I and I do plan on staying in touch with with Mr. Shadrach there

236
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excellent so you know if i wanted to purchase something um let's just say shoes right and

237
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i i go to one of these uh clients that supports snip 99 like conduit or plebeian the upcoming

238
00:21:54,672 --> 00:22:03,572
plebeian i should say and uh and shopster like how would i decide which one to go to presumably

239
00:22:03,572 --> 00:22:09,652
all three should have similar views of the products that are available, correct?

240
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Currently, yeah.

241
00:22:12,612 --> 00:22:20,512
I mean, it's all going to be about the UX around how we implement web of trust and social data around products.

242
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It's really easy to append social data to these product events, and that's one of the beautiful things about this spec.

243
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And so how do we then display that product data or social data around the products rather in a way that informs the user in the most truthful way about what's actually happening or how people are actually talking about this product?

244
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that is something that I think we're all going to end up interpreting slightly differently

245
00:22:49,972 --> 00:22:57,572
but hopefully we're all going to converge on you know some standards of of how you know reviews

246
00:22:57,572 --> 00:23:03,592
get handled or how or how you know even just like a simple star rating is is displayed I'd have to

247
00:23:03,592 --> 00:23:11,012
defer to others I'm not sure if the others have a star even a star rating system in place yet but

248
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But the social features are something we are definitely planning on adding in Conduit Market as soon as possible.

249
00:23:19,772 --> 00:23:30,652
So really, as a user, the choice is very similar or be analogous to do I use Primal, do I use Darmus, do I use Nostr, Amethyst, whatever it might be, right?

250
00:23:31,972 --> 00:23:32,492
Okay.

251
00:23:32,892 --> 00:23:39,332
It's really about how the app or the client makes them feel and the user experience it gives them.

252
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100%.

253
00:23:40,632 --> 00:23:43,812
And that's honestly the way things really should be in Noster.

254
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We're all going to be developing at different paces.

255
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We're all open source and going to be sort of spinning off from each other and collaborating and sharing.

256
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And as long as, you know, there's four of us right now and there's a few other people we're trying to convince to join us on the specification.

257
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you know, like, like bullish Bitcoiner, low timer with his ikno.com and even, you know,

258
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Dine Direct that Alejandro Gill is building. The more of us that there are, the more this is,

259
00:24:16,832 --> 00:24:20,632
this is truly decentralized. Like I appreciated that you said, you know, Conduit is building a

260
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decentralized app in your, in your intro there, but really we're not, none of us are decentralized

261
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if we can't sort of hide amongst each other in the crowd.

262
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That's a really, really important thing.

263
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That's why I'm never going to go on one of these shows

264
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or talk to the good folks and just say,

265
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we're the only one or we're the best or we're this or that

266
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because we all need each other.

267
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We all need each other for this to be truly decentralized.

268
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And that's why I personally love Noster.

269
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There's no single point of failure.

270
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And that actually makes us all stronger together.

271
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Yeah.

272
00:25:01,372 --> 00:25:06,392
I guess the critical bug of Silk Road was that it was only one of them.

273
00:25:06,452 --> 00:25:06,832
Exactly.

274
00:25:07,432 --> 00:25:07,792
Exactly.

275
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We need to build.

276
00:25:10,092 --> 00:25:13,892
Well, I almost shouldn't say this publicly, but we...

277
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Well, then don't.

278
00:25:14,772 --> 00:25:15,172
Okay.

279
00:25:15,172 --> 00:25:15,392
Okay.

280
00:25:18,032 --> 00:25:21,272
This is going to be recorded for eternity.

281
00:25:21,952 --> 00:25:22,752
Yes, I should be careful.

282
00:25:23,692 --> 00:25:25,092
Be careful with what I say there.

283
00:25:25,092 --> 00:25:30,172
But yes, Silk Road had a single point of failure, and we are trying to avoid that type of design.

284
00:25:31,432 --> 00:25:39,592
But yeah, for whoever's listening, Conduit is focused on legal products as our primary listings.

285
00:25:40,772 --> 00:25:41,592
No, absolutely, right?

286
00:25:41,672 --> 00:25:42,712
And that's the thing, right?

287
00:25:42,852 --> 00:25:46,392
I mean, there's Silk Road, the idea, and then there was what people were doing with it, right?

288
00:25:46,412 --> 00:25:50,572
You could take a good idea and do all sorts of illegal things with it.

289
00:25:50,572 --> 00:26:06,812
But how do you, as a practical matter, right, if you give people the ability to transact, I would say a vast majority of them would transact for ethical, good, you know, legal reasons.

290
00:26:06,852 --> 00:26:13,852
But there will be a small minority who try to, you know, transact in illegal things.

291
00:26:14,032 --> 00:26:18,732
And I don't mean, I mean actually morally irreprehensible things as well.

292
00:26:18,732 --> 00:26:19,292
Right, right.

293
00:26:19,292 --> 00:26:22,692
So how do you guard against something like that?

294
00:26:23,652 --> 00:26:32,252
So in this model, it's up to each service provider's policies of what they want to display.

295
00:26:32,592 --> 00:26:42,672
And the legality around that, as far as I understand from our legal team, is that you're responsible for what's on your own infrastructure.

296
00:26:42,672 --> 00:26:50,152
sure. I'm not going to, you know, come out here and say, you know, what people should or shouldn't

297
00:26:50,152 --> 00:26:53,192
do in their lives. That like, you know, it goes against my personal philosophy that obviously

298
00:26:53,192 --> 00:27:01,592
goes against the philosophy of so many people in this community. However, each individual service

299
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provider can choose their own policies, just like, you know, anyone can choose, you know, what they

300
00:27:06,232 --> 00:27:13,672
choose to display on their social app. And that right there is the beauty of Doster.

301
00:27:14,232 --> 00:27:22,952
Is that like the goal is not necessarily to burn everything down and make this like

302
00:27:22,952 --> 00:27:31,192
hellish landscape of reprehensible products. That is definitely not the goal. The goal is to

303
00:27:31,192 --> 00:27:38,812
increase the attack surface and make it more expensive for, um, the, whatever powers that be

304
00:27:38,812 --> 00:27:46,732
to limit people's rights and freedoms that they actually legally have through, by pulling on these

305
00:27:46,732 --> 00:27:51,612
levers that they currently have available to them, uh, through these centralized, um,

306
00:27:52,432 --> 00:27:59,972
parties. Like it doesn't, uh, take much for a, whatever current administration, you know, left,

307
00:27:59,972 --> 00:28:07,212
right middle up down to say uh to to pull on a certain lever and and get a product delisted

308
00:28:07,212 --> 00:28:12,912
because that's the sort of political flavor of the day you know that shouldn't be happening and

309
00:28:12,912 --> 00:28:18,592
unfortunately it is happening right now and how do so how do we prevent that is we have to make

310
00:28:18,592 --> 00:28:26,792
each of those attempts to limit um you know rights and freedoms that we already have legally

311
00:28:26,792 --> 00:28:29,352
We have to make each of those attempts more expensive.

312
00:28:29,452 --> 00:28:30,912
How do we make that more expensive?

313
00:28:32,032 --> 00:28:33,132
We decentralize.

314
00:28:33,592 --> 00:28:42,192
We all share a specification, and it becomes a game of whack-a-mole for the person that would actually abuse their power.

315
00:28:44,892 --> 00:28:52,752
That's the mission rather than – so that's kind of a coy way to answer the question, but I hope you understand where I'm going with that.

316
00:28:53,452 --> 00:28:54,032
No, absolutely.

317
00:28:54,212 --> 00:28:55,452
That makes complete sense.

318
00:28:55,832 --> 00:28:59,032
Let's talk about something I mentioned in the sermon,

319
00:28:59,252 --> 00:29:03,212
which is the distortion of these middlemen distorting price signals.

320
00:29:03,412 --> 00:29:07,052
And I say that as someone, not an expert on e-commerce.

321
00:29:07,312 --> 00:29:10,992
You've clearly spent more time studying this.

322
00:29:10,992 --> 00:29:17,072
What, in your view, if you look at the Amazons, Etsys, and the Shopifys of the world,

323
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and then even the physical marketplaces that exist today,

324
00:29:21,252 --> 00:29:24,832
some of the chain malls or what have you,

325
00:29:25,452 --> 00:29:34,172
What are the ways, do you think, in which prices, price discovery is completely distorted by these centralized entities?

326
00:29:40,112 --> 00:29:43,892
I think discovery is actually distorted a lot more than price.

327
00:29:43,892 --> 00:29:51,812
For price, obviously, I would say a big one is Amazon making everything basically cheaper than it should be.

328
00:29:51,812 --> 00:29:56,172
and we're trading price for quality, clearly.

329
00:29:57,892 --> 00:30:03,812
And so it's almost like you're taking a loan out against your future self

330
00:30:03,812 --> 00:30:06,552
because you're going to have to replace a product later.

331
00:30:06,712 --> 00:30:09,232
But that's kind of a more nuanced discussion.

332
00:30:10,392 --> 00:30:16,972
The other piece on the price bit is that they're charging a lot of overhead

333
00:30:16,972 --> 00:30:24,332
for the ability to be able to have these cheap sort of returns.

334
00:30:25,052 --> 00:30:28,992
And also, like, they're transferring credit card fees to people,

335
00:30:29,052 --> 00:30:30,172
and that just doesn't need to be happening.

336
00:30:30,892 --> 00:30:37,692
Bitcoin itself, aside from Noster, does seem to me to solve a lot of the pricing issues.

337
00:30:37,692 --> 00:30:44,672
I think the bigger problem where they really do screw with the signals is discovery.

338
00:30:44,672 --> 00:30:52,632
and that is whoever is paying to get to the front of the line to them.

339
00:30:52,632 --> 00:30:59,432
So that seems to optimize for products that are low quality

340
00:30:59,432 --> 00:31:03,012
and are scaling a lot.

341
00:31:04,272 --> 00:31:24,878
So instead of localization you get these sort of monoculture of just crappy brands paying their way to the top in a system that incentivized to do that What we would hope a decentralized model would ironically bring a lot more localization

342
00:31:24,878 --> 00:31:30,238
because the discovery and the price signals aren't being distorted.

343
00:31:30,238 --> 00:31:34,638
So that should naturally optimize actually for localization

344
00:31:34,638 --> 00:31:40,558
because your discovery is going to be based around people who you know

345
00:31:40,558 --> 00:31:44,078
and assumedly, unless you're like some crazy world traveler dude,

346
00:31:44,918 --> 00:31:49,038
that these people are somewhat localized around you.

347
00:31:49,578 --> 00:31:51,298
Or at least if you do travel to a place,

348
00:31:51,378 --> 00:31:54,778
you have a network of people that know what the good stuff is locally.

349
00:31:55,538 --> 00:31:57,898
And then back to the pricing piece,

350
00:32:00,338 --> 00:32:04,398
localization in a healthy economy should actually be more competitive

351
00:32:04,398 --> 00:32:07,138
because you simply don't have as,

352
00:32:08,258 --> 00:32:13,038
you're likely to have less shipping costs,

353
00:32:13,338 --> 00:32:15,398
just straight up, just based on proximity.

354
00:32:16,118 --> 00:32:18,858
Obviously, that is way more complex

355
00:32:18,858 --> 00:32:21,778
with a whole landscape of products.

356
00:32:21,898 --> 00:32:23,758
So I'm talking generalities, not specifics.

357
00:32:24,298 --> 00:32:26,138
But that's what we would hope to see

358
00:32:26,138 --> 00:32:31,858
by decentralizing the protocol itself for marketplaces.

359
00:32:34,398 --> 00:32:37,818
There's an interesting parallel here, as you were saying that, Eric.

360
00:32:37,938 --> 00:32:42,958
We've had a lot of folks in the music business, musicians themselves, on the show,

361
00:32:43,278 --> 00:32:45,978
and they talk about the Spotify attention casino.

362
00:32:46,078 --> 00:32:50,798
In fact, we just had Aaron of SX last week talking about this,

363
00:32:51,638 --> 00:32:55,058
how these centralized platforms,

364
00:32:56,198 --> 00:32:59,838
the discovery of truly good music is impossible

365
00:32:59,838 --> 00:33:04,038
because the algorithm sort of promotes this monoculture,

366
00:33:04,398 --> 00:33:10,578
uh milk toast nonsense right and any kind of complexity in music any kind of creativity

367
00:33:10,578 --> 00:33:16,518
is almost certain not to rise to the top because it just doesn't fit into the algorithm's parameters

368
00:33:16,518 --> 00:33:23,678
and it sounds like that it's very very similar for buying goods and goods and services online as

369
00:33:23,678 --> 00:33:30,418
well absolutely i mean i i was talking to uh to someone else about this when i travel somewhere i

370
00:33:30,418 --> 00:33:32,398
want to get the local products.

371
00:33:34,198 --> 00:33:36,618
Why doesn't that happen? It's because we have

372
00:33:36,618 --> 00:33:39,398
these monoculture style incentives right now.

373
00:33:41,098 --> 00:33:43,578
And I want to live in a world where that's actually

374
00:33:43,578 --> 00:33:46,458
different, where the merchants that are flourishing

375
00:33:46,458 --> 00:33:49,638
locally are flourishing that way

376
00:33:49,638 --> 00:33:51,958
both in the physical space and in the online space.

377
00:33:51,958 --> 00:33:55,418
And those should actually feed off of each other

378
00:33:55,418 --> 00:33:56,798
with the right incentive model.

379
00:33:56,798 --> 00:34:05,718
isn't the the irony has just struck me as eric is for all the talk of diversity and promoting

380
00:34:05,718 --> 00:34:10,778
diversity we're converging into a monoculture when what what and really what you're talking

381
00:34:10,778 --> 00:34:16,098
about is true diversity right of of products of experiences and that can only come from

382
00:34:16,098 --> 00:34:23,698
authenticity and and and having tools that allow people to discover these unique and authentic

383
00:34:23,698 --> 00:34:28,919
products that are out there. Exactly. You can't let, you can't force diversity to happen. You have

384
00:34:28,919 --> 00:34:40,078
to let diversity happen. Yeah. Now, you know, let's talk about the, you know, finding prices,

385
00:34:40,078 --> 00:34:47,798
our price discovery itself. And again, you know, we have Soap Miner, who's been active in the chat

386
00:34:47,798 --> 00:34:54,998
today. There's great ghee, there's leather mint, you know, several other Nosti users have become

387
00:34:54,998 --> 00:35:01,678
popular because of their craftsmanship, because of building authentic products. Now, clearly,

388
00:35:01,858 --> 00:35:07,898
there is a cost to what they do, given the level of craftsmanship that goes into it, right?

389
00:35:07,898 --> 00:35:15,198
High quality ingredients, in many cases, handcrafted, minimal, or at least not the industrial

390
00:35:15,198 --> 00:35:19,138
grade automation that the monoculture produces.

391
00:35:20,898 --> 00:35:23,658
So there is a clear physical cost to this.

392
00:35:23,718 --> 00:35:25,678
And then on top of it, you add on shipping.

393
00:35:25,678 --> 00:35:29,919
If you want to do the private shipping with something like A to B, I think presumably

394
00:35:29,919 --> 00:35:33,378
that gets even more expensive because of the multiple hops involved.

395
00:35:35,678 --> 00:35:43,439
How does price in this sort of truly sovereign, reputation-based, authentic craftsmanship coming

396
00:35:43,439 --> 00:35:49,478
to the fore, how does price actually converge to an affordable number?

397
00:35:51,278 --> 00:35:59,878
That's an interesting question, because what is affordable? I mean, to me, a good that lasts

398
00:35:59,878 --> 00:36:10,078
longer is long-term more affordable than repeatedly sort of paying into crap products.

399
00:36:10,078 --> 00:36:16,358
um but how do we how do we converge on on the correct price of things i guess

400
00:36:16,358 --> 00:36:23,998
yeah i mean that that that's that's a tough one i don't i don't quite know how that all shakes out

401
00:36:23,998 --> 00:36:31,218
that is a you know the complex economic question um but but i think i think you know what these

402
00:36:31,218 --> 00:36:37,818
folks are producing it's expensive but it's it's really you know not that expensive like why why

403
00:36:37,818 --> 00:36:44,638
should my certain products have sort of stayed the same price or stayed cheaper than others.

404
00:36:44,638 --> 00:36:53,798
And I think we've been suffering in quality, like the stuff that, you know, soap minor,

405
00:36:53,919 --> 00:36:59,678
please like, you know, meet me in real life and hit me or something if I speak incorrectly.

406
00:36:59,818 --> 00:37:01,618
He's making soap the way it used to be made.

407
00:37:02,578 --> 00:37:05,878
And as far as I understand it, there's less ingredients.

408
00:37:05,878 --> 00:37:11,178
why can't why can't we scale why can't something like that compete with something with a bunch of

409
00:37:11,178 --> 00:37:17,398
petrochemicals in it um there's clearly some some subsidization happening there for that specific

410
00:37:17,398 --> 00:37:23,858
product um yeah this this is something that's hard for me to answer because i think it really

411
00:37:23,858 --> 00:37:29,878
depends on on the product categories that that we're talking about but i personally just want

412
00:37:29,878 --> 00:37:36,858
to know the true price for the quality that I want. And I think long term, I'm going to be able to,

413
00:37:37,778 --> 00:37:44,198
you know, in some cases, live longer, be healthier. And, you know, maybe something like a

414
00:37:44,198 --> 00:37:48,838
leather mint will last longer, and I won't have had to buy seven belts instead of just one belt,

415
00:37:48,878 --> 00:37:54,218
and I will have actually saved money in the long term. So I think what I hope Nostra markets and

416
00:37:54,218 --> 00:37:59,459
Bitcoin in general is going to do is going to raise people's time preference.

417
00:38:01,439 --> 00:38:05,598
And this should translate to the types of choices that people are going to make and where they're

418
00:38:05,598 --> 00:38:10,498
going to spend their money. And then maybe that allows somebody like a soap miner or an Oshii

419
00:38:10,498 --> 00:38:14,939
or a great gi to scale their operations to something that they feel comfortable with,

420
00:38:14,978 --> 00:38:19,398
but something that gives them a better unit cost. But they're actually getting the chance

421
00:38:19,398 --> 00:38:23,278
to do something like that because people are being informed by the correct social data.

422
00:38:24,218 --> 00:38:38,818
Yeah. So there is a supply side to this and there's a demand side to this. And I think we're seeing the attention to quality detail and craftsmanship and so on come through on the supply side with all of those folks that you just mentioned.

423
00:38:39,138 --> 00:38:51,278
The question is, is it going to come on the demand side, meaning the consumers themselves? Are they going to demand high quality products? And it's, again, a bit of a chicken and egg, it seems to me. Do you see that?

424
00:38:51,278 --> 00:39:07,178
Yes, absolutely. And that's, you know, that's why we're trying to service both sides of that equation. But I would contend that just given the success that some of these merchants are having on Noster, that there is currently more peer to peer money than product out there right now.

425
00:39:07,178 --> 00:39:19,798
So for at least right now, I think getting more high-quality products out there to Bitcoiners specifically, merchants will be successful in this.

426
00:39:20,758 --> 00:39:25,178
If we remove as many of those frictions as possible, it's going to be really...

427
00:39:25,718 --> 00:39:27,258
Sorry, I'm going to say it this way.

428
00:39:27,378 --> 00:39:35,278
When we remove as many of those frictions as possible, it's going to be really interesting to see what people truly value in this type of system.

429
00:39:35,278 --> 00:39:38,838
And then from there, we can adapt what we build next.

430
00:39:41,018 --> 00:39:43,398
Is Conduit live today?

431
00:39:43,538 --> 00:39:45,558
Can anyone go to conduit.market?

432
00:39:45,898 --> 00:39:47,278
It is conduit.market, right?

433
00:39:47,398 --> 00:39:48,378
Yeah, conduit.market.

434
00:39:48,479 --> 00:39:53,598
So you can check out the alpha for the shopper side of the equation at alpha.conduit.market.

435
00:39:54,018 --> 00:39:59,798
Our landing page kind of expressing the larger vision is at just conduit.market.

436
00:40:00,578 --> 00:40:02,419
But yeah, the alpha works.

437
00:40:02,419 --> 00:40:05,758
It interoperates with Shopster right now.

438
00:40:05,898 --> 00:40:08,538
Hopefully when Polybian does their release soon,

439
00:40:08,578 --> 00:40:09,459
it'll interoperate with that.

440
00:40:09,578 --> 00:40:12,038
It actually interoperates with CypherSpace as well.

441
00:40:13,038 --> 00:40:16,419
Checkout works through NIP17 DMs.

442
00:40:17,058 --> 00:40:20,298
We're still working out some kinks

443
00:40:20,298 --> 00:40:22,258
on certain specific order messages,

444
00:40:22,439 --> 00:40:24,698
but you can definitely check out using DMs.

445
00:40:26,078 --> 00:40:27,618
That's kind of where we're at right now.

446
00:40:29,838 --> 00:40:31,618
And what are the products that...

447
00:40:31,618 --> 00:40:36,558
So if someone listening to this went to alpha.conti.market,

448
00:40:37,178 --> 00:40:39,138
what would they be able to purchase today?

449
00:40:39,338 --> 00:40:40,578
Let's take a look.

450
00:40:40,818 --> 00:40:43,258
I'll just read what I see on the screen.

451
00:40:43,979 --> 00:40:47,518
You know, a bunch of different food products.

452
00:40:47,698 --> 00:40:49,419
We've got sunglasses.

453
00:40:49,718 --> 00:40:53,378
It is kind of a, I mean, I use this word,

454
00:40:53,459 --> 00:40:56,038
a smorgasbord of whatever people are putting on there.

455
00:40:56,398 --> 00:40:57,778
We're not putting any filters.

456
00:40:57,778 --> 00:41:02,778
I kind of love the fact that it's just this like random tapestry of things right now.

457
00:41:04,479 --> 00:41:12,979
If you go to the categories at the top, though, you can see there's a lot of art, clothing, accessories, food, crafts, e-cards, collectibles.

458
00:41:13,178 --> 00:41:16,718
By the way, the categories anyone sees at the top, those are not generated by us.

459
00:41:16,778 --> 00:41:20,058
Those are generated by the user tags that they put on them.

460
00:41:20,718 --> 00:41:24,718
And it was kind of interesting to watch what just kind of appears there.

461
00:41:24,718 --> 00:41:27,898
and that might be your best way

462
00:41:27,898 --> 00:41:30,058
to click on a few of those categories in there

463
00:41:30,058 --> 00:41:32,758
and see what you see under the food category,

464
00:41:32,998 --> 00:41:35,919
under the merge category,

465
00:41:36,118 --> 00:41:37,278
under the art category.

466
00:41:37,459 --> 00:41:39,919
Those types of products

467
00:41:39,944 --> 00:41:43,304
seem to be dominating the listings.

468
00:41:43,764 --> 00:41:46,784
Again, just to be clear, those were definitely created somewhere else

469
00:41:46,784 --> 00:41:49,304
because we don't have the immersion side of things ready yet.

470
00:41:49,904 --> 00:41:53,824
But, I mean, just looking at the trends that we see on Nostra

471
00:41:53,824 --> 00:41:57,464
is we're looking at the products that are successful

472
00:41:57,464 --> 00:42:02,984
seem to be very artisanal or high-quality food,

473
00:42:03,544 --> 00:42:06,744
alternative health and sort of natural products

474
00:42:06,744 --> 00:42:12,844
that route around the sort of petrochemical complex

475
00:42:12,844 --> 00:42:14,744
seem to be very popular as well.

476
00:42:16,424 --> 00:42:21,964
But it kind of fits what type of Nostra users you get, right?

477
00:42:22,064 --> 00:42:24,464
The people that have been sort of outcast,

478
00:42:24,624 --> 00:42:25,544
or products, let's say,

479
00:42:25,784 --> 00:42:27,804
that have been outcast by mainstream society,

480
00:42:28,224 --> 00:42:33,604
those are going to show up on a freedom-based protocol first.

481
00:42:34,544 --> 00:42:38,064
Eventually, we hope it's normal for everybody,

482
00:42:38,384 --> 00:42:42,664
and then we get to see what a society based on a decentralized protocol actually looks like,

483
00:42:42,704 --> 00:42:44,664
and that's what really excites me and drives me.

484
00:42:45,084 --> 00:42:47,484
But for now, yeah, you're seeing the people that have been,

485
00:42:48,404 --> 00:42:50,904
and the people in the products in this case that have been put out of the margins

486
00:42:50,904 --> 00:42:55,524
or been unfairly treated by the Amazons of this world.

487
00:42:57,944 --> 00:43:03,584
So clearly in a market like this, well, in a Nostra-based marketplace, right,

488
00:43:03,604 --> 00:43:05,704
trust and reputation are everything.

489
00:43:06,364 --> 00:43:08,864
Because, I mean, anyone can create a pub key.

490
00:43:09,504 --> 00:43:14,584
Anyone can sign events, including NIP99 events.

491
00:43:15,244 --> 00:43:18,764
And you have, at first blush,

492
00:43:18,764 --> 00:43:20,884
you really have no way of knowing whether something,

493
00:43:21,824 --> 00:43:23,004
when you buy something,

494
00:43:23,104 --> 00:43:25,424
whether it's actually going to deliver to your place or not.

495
00:43:25,484 --> 00:43:28,284
And also who on earth you're giving your address away to,

496
00:43:28,844 --> 00:43:29,984
which is the other thing.

497
00:43:29,984 --> 00:43:39,444
um so do you i mean i would think web of trust solves this how are you thinking about reputation

498
00:43:39,444 --> 00:43:46,404
and web of trust for conduit yeah i mean the goal is to carry your web of trust from other social

499
00:43:46,404 --> 00:43:50,464
places right like i'm not going to be i want to be your friend but i'm not going to be your friend

500
00:43:50,464 --> 00:43:58,924
on amazon avi i'm sorry but i will be your friend you know on a true social app right so uh right

501
00:43:58,924 --> 00:44:04,804
now we're leveraging the social reputations that are built up elsewhere on the protocol and trying

502
00:44:04,804 --> 00:44:13,764
to use that for reputation scores here. Eventually, you know, merchants can build up their reputation

503
00:44:13,764 --> 00:44:20,964
directly on the protocol. But I'd say, you know, if my goal is to make this as smooth as possible

504
00:44:20,964 --> 00:44:25,584
for merchants that we're competing with the Shopify's of the world, right? So then what you

505
00:44:25,584 --> 00:44:34,684
can do is you can actually bring an already reputable merchant to Noster. That is like a huge

506
00:44:34,684 --> 00:44:41,244
focus of mine because if we bring people that, because, you know, even though they're not on

507
00:44:41,244 --> 00:44:46,144
decentralized protocols, people are building up reputations out there in the sort of, for lack of

508
00:44:46,144 --> 00:44:51,004
a better word, normie world. If they've got a good one, I want to bring them here. I've got a, you

509
00:44:51,004 --> 00:44:57,804
a long list of merchants that I think would do very, very well on Noster selling for Bitcoin.

510
00:44:58,504 --> 00:45:00,044
And I want to bring them here.

511
00:45:00,164 --> 00:45:06,204
And my pitch to them is basically, hey, look, we're going to get you access to a bunch of Bitcoiners,

512
00:45:06,204 --> 00:45:11,984
people that are holding peer-to-peer money who actually are, you know, already follow the ideology

513
00:45:11,984 --> 00:45:14,404
and want to spend it and use it in their daily lives.

514
00:45:14,544 --> 00:45:18,204
And that's kind of a free option to the upside for that merchant.

515
00:45:18,584 --> 00:45:20,544
They're basically opening up a new sales channel.

516
00:45:20,544 --> 00:45:22,664
at very, very, very low cost.

517
00:45:22,904 --> 00:45:23,684
In fact, no cost.

518
00:45:23,804 --> 00:45:25,484
We're not even going to have to charge them at first.

519
00:45:26,664 --> 00:45:28,464
Actually, no one should ever have to charge them.

520
00:45:30,624 --> 00:45:33,924
That, to me, is a pretty good pitch to merchants.

521
00:45:34,524 --> 00:45:36,824
Hey, I'm going to open up a new sales channel for you.

522
00:45:36,864 --> 00:45:37,584
What's it going to cost me?

523
00:45:37,644 --> 00:45:37,884
Zero.

524
00:45:38,084 --> 00:45:38,644
All upside.

525
00:45:38,944 --> 00:45:39,784
Okay, let's go.

526
00:45:42,384 --> 00:45:45,064
So I'll give an example of a reputable merchant

527
00:45:45,064 --> 00:45:51,224
And that is definitely, I don't believe a bitcoiner or an ostrich.

528
00:45:51,364 --> 00:45:55,844
There's a dairy farm out in Utah called Ballerina Farm.

529
00:45:56,044 --> 00:45:56,904
Have you heard of these guys?

530
00:45:56,944 --> 00:45:57,364
I have not.

531
00:45:58,464 --> 00:45:58,684
No.

532
00:45:58,684 --> 00:46:03,584
So it's all, you know, grass-fed, free-range dairy cows,

533
00:46:03,764 --> 00:46:07,064
and they produce a lot of milk, these cows,

534
00:46:07,184 --> 00:46:10,144
like way beyond anything that calves would ever need.

535
00:46:10,144 --> 00:46:20,764
And what Ballerina does is basically it creates this, they make this raw colostrum protein powder.

536
00:46:21,044 --> 00:46:26,024
It's all, you know, pure ingredients and they add fresh vanilla to it.

537
00:46:26,144 --> 00:46:27,524
And it's just, it's delicious.

538
00:46:27,844 --> 00:46:29,984
Protein bomb, it's raw colostrum.

539
00:46:30,464 --> 00:46:30,784
It's incredible.

540
00:46:30,824 --> 00:46:32,784
This would crush on a lot of marketplaces.

541
00:46:33,264 --> 00:46:35,564
Well, 100%, 100%, right?

542
00:46:35,564 --> 00:46:39,964
So, and these guys have a fairly decent following.

543
00:46:40,144 --> 00:46:43,204
I mean, following meaning that a lot of people buy that product.

544
00:46:43,284 --> 00:46:44,024
They keep running out.

545
00:46:45,124 --> 00:46:49,784
And they hit pause for a couple of weeks to refresh their inventory.

546
00:46:50,904 --> 00:46:56,144
But if someone like that were to come to Noster, how would...

547
00:46:56,864 --> 00:47:02,984
Let's say I'm on Conduit, and I suddenly see Ballerina Farm listed there,

548
00:47:03,024 --> 00:47:04,164
and they're selling rock lostrum.

549
00:47:05,144 --> 00:47:07,304
How would I know that's the real Ballerina Farm?

550
00:47:07,304 --> 00:47:17,204
You'd have to check their social profile on maybe a Primal or Amethyst or something like that to kind of triangulate that, for lack of a better word.

551
00:47:18,764 --> 00:47:23,984
Or I would need someone in my web of trust to attest that that is Bellarine file.

552
00:47:24,644 --> 00:47:30,124
There has to be some kind of trust onboarding process into this ecosystem.

553
00:47:30,124 --> 00:47:35,784
Yeah, and I think we see that, too, with a popular Twitter profile, for example.

554
00:47:35,784 --> 00:47:38,344
they'll post their end pub on Twitter.

555
00:47:38,724 --> 00:47:41,284
They've already been somewhat socially verified over there,

556
00:47:41,384 --> 00:47:44,804
and they're transferring that reputation and verifiability over to Nostra that way.

557
00:47:46,004 --> 00:47:47,904
I think a similar thing would happen.

558
00:47:48,164 --> 00:47:54,784
People might use their existing channels to broadcast that this is actually their store on Nostra.

559
00:47:55,064 --> 00:47:59,824
I think that happens in a lot of different use cases for Nostra at the beginning

560
00:47:59,824 --> 00:48:04,544
before we have built up a critical mass of people

561
00:48:04,544 --> 00:48:08,224
that are going to be verifying each other for each other type thing.

562
00:48:11,724 --> 00:48:18,664
So have you looked at different web of trust score mechanisms?

563
00:48:19,664 --> 00:48:21,524
How much thought have you given to that?

564
00:48:21,524 --> 00:48:24,924
Are you thinking just in terms of follows?

565
00:48:24,924 --> 00:48:31,664
If a vendor is followed by people in your trust graph, then that's good enough?

566
00:48:31,784 --> 00:48:35,744
Or are you looking at more events to add to that trust score?

567
00:48:36,884 --> 00:48:44,324
I mean, there are so many good people working on Web of Trust right now and developing tooling around that.

568
00:48:44,424 --> 00:48:48,964
And I don't know how that exactly looks to integrate in our app right now.

569
00:48:48,964 --> 00:48:52,784
we are going to just focus on the basics at the beginning,

570
00:48:53,084 --> 00:48:57,584
which is just being able to see the social data that you already see

571
00:48:57,584 --> 00:49:00,584
on your typical social apps,

572
00:49:01,144 --> 00:49:04,184
being able to see the comments and the likes and the zaps

573
00:49:04,184 --> 00:49:07,804
from across the network on these product events

574
00:49:07,804 --> 00:49:12,184
and let users kind of do the work a little bit at the beginning,

575
00:49:12,804 --> 00:49:18,624
but eventually maybe integrating one of these web of trust services

576
00:49:18,624 --> 00:49:23,784
or some web of trust tooling from one of the good people that are already working on that

577
00:49:23,784 --> 00:49:25,664
and have become experts at that.

578
00:49:25,844 --> 00:49:28,424
That is definitely an option.

579
00:49:28,864 --> 00:49:35,004
And on the roadmap, at some point, I'm already talking to a few different people that are

580
00:49:35,004 --> 00:49:35,944
building in that space.

581
00:49:35,944 --> 00:49:39,604
And basically, I'm just like, we got to get the whole pipeline ready.

582
00:49:40,264 --> 00:49:43,504
And then we're going to integrate social, fully integrate social features.

583
00:49:43,844 --> 00:49:47,364
But I'm really, really, really excited to build those features out.

584
00:49:47,364 --> 00:49:49,744
and I guess I'll keep you posted on that.

585
00:49:51,464 --> 00:49:53,704
Yeah, there's lots to look forward to there.

586
00:49:54,524 --> 00:49:57,164
I think I remember reading on your homepage, Eric,

587
00:49:57,804 --> 00:50:01,104
I think you said zero platform fees, no profit cut.

588
00:50:01,904 --> 00:50:03,284
The code is completely open source,

589
00:50:03,444 --> 00:50:08,164
which all great Bitcoin or NOSTA false values.

590
00:50:08,524 --> 00:50:10,724
I guess the question is, how do you make any money?

591
00:50:10,724 --> 00:50:11,444
Love that question.

592
00:50:11,444 --> 00:50:19,244
yeah I mean everything's happening in private and crypto channels that you know not even we can see

593
00:50:19,244 --> 00:50:26,204
so how do we charge money for something like that the mental model I'm not going to reveal

594
00:50:26,204 --> 00:50:33,744
everything on this front just yet but the mental model around this is well two things first you

595
00:50:33,744 --> 00:50:39,564
know what is a valuable service that you can provide merchants that would help them increase

596
00:50:39,564 --> 00:50:46,164
their sales. That's going to be worth something. So because everything's happening in private DMs,

597
00:50:46,164 --> 00:50:53,744
there has to be a way to automate certain order messages so that shoppers don't have a ton of

598
00:50:53,744 --> 00:50:58,824
friction when they're trying to check out. Right now, with a DM-based checkout flow, even with

599
00:50:58,824 --> 00:51:07,844
the special order messages that we have developed here, it does require presence and permission to

600
00:51:07,844 --> 00:51:13,444
use an NSEC to push these messages through. Basically meaning that you could initiate a

601
00:51:13,444 --> 00:51:19,784
checkout and the merchant on the other side needs to be present to receive the order and generate

602
00:51:19,784 --> 00:51:25,984
an invoice. And if they're not there, like the second that you clicked buy, then there's going

603
00:51:25,984 --> 00:51:29,784
to be a delay and some friction in that process. And unfortunately, I think that that means

604
00:51:29,784 --> 00:51:38,904
merchants get less sales through that. So the core innovation that we're excited to bring in

605
00:51:38,904 --> 00:51:47,264
the merchant portal, and this would be a premium tool, is how do we provide the sort of cash register

606
00:51:47,264 --> 00:51:55,264
that allows them to push those orders through automatically without revealing

607
00:51:55,264 --> 00:51:59,104
their insect to anybody, including Conduit

608
00:51:59,104 --> 00:52:09,431
or anyone providing this service So the mental model around that is like this is the digital cash register of the 21st century I think that has value

609
00:52:10,031 --> 00:52:14,091
And the story around the cash register is actually somewhat important to me.

610
00:52:15,171 --> 00:52:23,471
It's a guy, John Patterson, in the late 19th century, you know, made the National Cash Register Company.

611
00:52:23,471 --> 00:52:33,431
And that company did a lot of good things for America and also was an extremely profitable company.

612
00:52:34,431 --> 00:52:41,891
And a cash register was a mechanical closed system that never looked at their merchant's transactions and was never able to take a cut.

613
00:52:42,051 --> 00:52:44,811
He just leased those machines.

614
00:52:46,071 --> 00:52:49,871
That's kind of the business model that we're aiming at.

615
00:52:49,871 --> 00:53:02,391
And of course, you know, there's other services that you can offer, you know, to help people build their stores and help people nostrilize their stores and help people generate their stores that are also really interesting that we want to explore.

616
00:53:04,091 --> 00:53:08,511
But yeah, that's kind of my idea of how we're going to make money without revealing a little bit too much.

617
00:53:10,331 --> 00:53:10,771
Okay.

618
00:53:11,231 --> 00:53:12,231
Coming soon, TM.

619
00:53:12,371 --> 00:53:12,631
Yes.

620
00:53:14,231 --> 00:53:17,211
So we have a question from Soap Miner in the live chat.

621
00:53:17,231 --> 00:53:17,651
Oh, sweet.

622
00:53:17,651 --> 00:53:21,891
who asks, I wonder if white noise could be implemented.

623
00:53:22,191 --> 00:53:25,091
And I think if I had to pass that question for you, Eric,

624
00:53:25,271 --> 00:53:28,991
I think you'd mentioned NIP 17 DMs.

625
00:53:29,951 --> 00:53:32,831
And I think white noise is a reference implementation

626
00:53:32,831 --> 00:53:36,571
of the Marmot protocol, I think, which is the new one.

627
00:53:36,671 --> 00:53:38,051
So is that something you're looking into,

628
00:53:38,091 --> 00:53:41,551
either white noise itself or the Marmot protocol in general?

629
00:53:42,551 --> 00:53:46,311
Yeah, whenever white noise is ready,

630
00:53:46,311 --> 00:53:53,151
obviously we'd love to implement that. NIP 17 has, you know, its limitations that actually makes the

631
00:53:53,151 --> 00:54:01,591
trusting of a counterparty a lot more risky than it needs to be. But right now it works.

632
00:54:02,551 --> 00:54:09,811
And so we're using that. We, I actually, I think it's over a month ago now, I did message the

633
00:54:09,811 --> 00:54:15,311
entire group and was like, hey, maybe we should, we should think about, you know, working towards

634
00:54:15,311 --> 00:54:22,851
switching to something like a white noise eventually. But yeah, we haven't spent a lot

635
00:54:22,851 --> 00:54:29,551
of time on that, but it's definitely on our radar because, yeah, you don't want a situation where

636
00:54:29,551 --> 00:54:37,831
a merchant gets compromised and then reveals, you know, whoever compromises them then reveals all

637
00:54:37,831 --> 00:54:41,431
their customer data because you didn't have, you know, full forward secrecy and all that stuff.

638
00:54:41,431 --> 00:54:49,231
so yes I to answer Mr. Soap Miner that that could there's no reason why it can't be implemented we

639
00:54:49,231 --> 00:54:52,911
just we just haven't yet and we'd have to look deeper into white noise and see how it works

640
00:54:52,911 --> 00:54:57,731
with the specific order messages and how that you know transmits things to the relays how that's

641
00:54:57,731 --> 00:55:03,611
read how that's unpacked both on the client side both for shoppers and for merchants rather

642
00:55:03,611 --> 00:55:11,931
and nipple four in this scenario would absolutely not work right the the old school you don't want

643
00:55:11,931 --> 00:55:13,331
to tell everybody when you're buying sex toys

644
00:55:13,331 --> 00:55:22,331
that's right because you you know i mean it'll clearly show that the buyer well but two people

645
00:55:22,331 --> 00:55:26,671
one could be the buyer one could be the seller but it's fairly easy to know who the seller is

646
00:55:26,671 --> 00:55:32,091
right right and and if they're dming each other that's pretty much it you've leaked everything

647
00:55:32,091 --> 00:55:36,571
right yeah i mean you you basically like are filming people walking into stores at that point

648
00:55:36,571 --> 00:55:41,511
and you know even though you don't um you know you may you may not be able to like see exactly

649
00:55:41,511 --> 00:55:45,411
what's happening you know that they've been to that store and a certain amount of data has been

650
00:55:45,411 --> 00:55:50,211
exchanged and that's that's just like not acceptable so at least you know we do get some benefits from

651
00:55:50,211 --> 00:55:56,451
you know the gift wrap uh bit of nip 17 because you know at least we're not filming people walking

652
00:55:56,451 --> 00:56:02,111
into the stores. But yeah, then, you know, we can take that further with something like a white

653
00:56:02,111 --> 00:56:07,471
noise to provide that forward secrecy. But that just said, we haven't really looked at that yet,

654
00:56:07,511 --> 00:56:14,111
to be honest. Yeah. Yeah, I actually never thought about Nipple 4s in this month. I mean,

655
00:56:14,231 --> 00:56:19,871
you know, there was some semblance of privacy if you just, in the sense that at least the message

656
00:56:19,871 --> 00:56:24,531
contents are encrypted, if you're just, you know, shooting the breeze, right, on Noster.

657
00:56:24,531 --> 00:56:30,951
in this case the message content in the case of commerce the contents are irrelevant practically

658
00:56:30,951 --> 00:56:40,111
right the fact that a a nipple for event exists is proof enough that you you're you've essentially

659
00:56:40,111 --> 00:56:46,051
uh you're doing commerce yeah you've had a transaction yeah you've you've you've associated

660
00:56:46,051 --> 00:56:50,451
yourself with the store i mean you could just say yeah like i was just talking but like you know

661
00:56:50,451 --> 00:56:53,611
everyone's going to like say you were there anyway,

662
00:56:54,491 --> 00:56:56,991
which that's not the world I want to live in.

663
00:56:57,531 --> 00:56:59,731
I want some privacy, especially around my shopping.

664
00:57:02,731 --> 00:57:03,351
All right.

665
00:57:03,411 --> 00:57:07,931
So Eric is, we are very close to the one hour mark.

666
00:57:08,431 --> 00:57:09,931
So I'm going to do this.

667
00:57:10,071 --> 00:57:10,231
Yeah.

668
00:57:10,731 --> 00:57:15,971
It is time for our first ever Valley for Valley music segment.

669
00:57:16,851 --> 00:57:23,851
I've got a track today from a band out of Tallahassee, Florida, called The Retrograde.

670
00:57:24,651 --> 00:57:30,111
You know how sometimes you hear a new band and you swear you found a lost tape from the 70s?

671
00:57:30,651 --> 00:57:32,791
That's exactly what these guys are doing.

672
00:57:33,311 --> 00:57:36,051
They aren't trying to reinvent the wheel.

673
00:57:36,311 --> 00:57:39,411
They're just driving it down a dirt road with windows down.

674
00:57:40,031 --> 00:57:43,631
This track is called Closer to Somewhere.

675
00:57:43,631 --> 00:57:54,951
It's got this raspy, desperate optimism to it, that feeling of being stuck in relationship purgatory, but knowing you're moving towards something.

676
00:57:55,851 --> 00:58:00,491
So, turn it up. Here is the Retrogate.

677
00:58:13,631 --> 00:58:25,431
Down on your luck like you was before

678
00:58:25,431 --> 00:58:32,891
Bills piling up on your front door

679
00:58:32,891 --> 00:58:38,411
I believe it's true

680
00:58:38,411 --> 00:58:42,311
That it starts with you

681
00:58:43,631 --> 00:58:48,851
Lord, won't you tell me what to do?

682
00:58:49,151 --> 00:58:49,531
Yeah.

683
00:58:51,271 --> 00:58:52,771
Close to nothing.

684
00:58:53,311 --> 00:58:54,751
Ex-de-leaving.

685
00:58:55,131 --> 00:58:56,451
Not believing.

686
00:58:57,091 --> 00:58:59,831
Won't you check it out?

687
00:59:01,291 --> 00:59:03,291
Closer to someone.

688
00:59:06,231 --> 00:59:08,051
Don't you want me?

689
00:59:08,271 --> 00:59:09,871
Don't you need me?

690
00:59:09,871 --> 00:59:11,871
I can feel it.

691
00:59:11,871 --> 00:59:15,971
We can work it out

692
00:59:15,971 --> 00:59:18,371
Closer to somewhere

693
00:59:18,371 --> 00:59:25,911
Waiting around for your lucky break

694
00:59:25,911 --> 00:59:32,931
Picking apart the things you say

695
00:59:32,931 --> 00:59:38,391
I don't like the sound

696
00:59:38,391 --> 00:59:42,511
Won't you come around

697
00:59:42,511 --> 00:59:46,431
Lord, won't you tell me

698
00:59:46,431 --> 00:59:49,791
That it's true, yeah

699
00:59:49,791 --> 00:59:53,031
Close to nothing

700
00:59:53,031 --> 00:59:54,611
Next to leaving

701
00:59:54,611 --> 00:59:56,471
Not believing

702
00:59:56,471 --> 01:00:00,571
Won't you check it out

703
01:00:00,571 --> 01:00:03,351
Closer to somebody

704
01:00:03,351 --> 01:00:09,931
Don't you want me? Don't you need me?

705
01:00:09,931 --> 01:00:15,611
I can feel it. We can work it out.

706
01:00:16,011 --> 01:00:18,251
Closer to yourself.

707
01:00:33,351 --> 01:00:38,891
12 dating

708
01:00:38,891 --> 01:00:41,791
close to nothing

709
01:00:41,791 --> 01:00:43,411
next to leaving

710
01:00:43,411 --> 01:00:45,231
not believing

711
01:00:45,231 --> 01:00:49,691
won't you check it out

712
01:00:49,691 --> 01:00:52,551
closer to somewhere

713
01:00:52,551 --> 01:00:56,791
don't you want me

714
01:00:56,791 --> 01:00:58,691
don't you need me

715
01:00:58,691 --> 01:01:00,611
I can feel it

716
01:01:00,611 --> 01:01:04,791
We can work it out

717
01:01:04,791 --> 01:01:07,111
Closer to somewhere

718
01:01:07,111 --> 01:01:16,811
That was Closer to Somewhere by The Retrograde.

719
01:01:17,011 --> 01:01:19,731
I really appreciate the production choice there.

720
01:01:19,891 --> 01:01:21,111
Did you hear that swing?

721
01:01:21,571 --> 01:01:22,471
It's loose.

722
01:01:22,691 --> 01:01:27,591
In an era where everything is quantized and grid perfect,

723
01:01:27,591 --> 01:01:29,931
this track actually breeds.

724
01:01:29,931 --> 01:01:39,491
Joe Fox's vocals have that perfect morning-after rasp that makes you believe him when he sings about bills piling up at the door.

725
01:01:39,971 --> 01:01:43,431
This is a song that wears its influences proudly.

726
01:01:44,031 --> 01:01:50,071
You can definitely hear the ghosts of Lynyrd Skynyrd or the Ormond Brothers haunting the guitar tone.

727
01:01:50,511 --> 01:01:54,931
But honestly, that familiarity is exactly why it works.

728
01:01:55,411 --> 01:01:57,691
It's comfort food for rock fans.

729
01:01:57,691 --> 01:02:00,231
It's not trying to trick you with complexity.

730
01:02:00,671 --> 01:02:04,771
It's just good, honest, blue-collar songwriting.

731
01:02:05,551 --> 01:02:06,991
Eric, what did you think?

732
01:02:07,291 --> 01:02:07,971
Dude, that was cool.

733
01:02:08,411 --> 01:02:10,411
I was getting a little, like at the first it was like Tom Petty

734
01:02:10,411 --> 01:02:12,751
and then it kind of turned into like a more modern version of live.

735
01:02:13,751 --> 01:02:14,271
Wow.

736
01:02:15,631 --> 01:02:16,150
Yeah.

737
01:02:16,631 --> 01:02:18,271
So folks, if you're listening to this

738
01:02:18,271 --> 01:02:23,171
on your favorite podcasting 2.0 app like Fountain,

739
01:02:23,171 --> 01:02:38,117
make sure you go back a couple of minutes to when the song playing and hit that boost button 90 of your boosts will go to Tallahassee

740
01:02:38,877 --> 01:02:39,577
All right.

741
01:02:39,977 --> 01:02:44,477
So let's pick up where we left off, Eric.

742
01:02:44,557 --> 01:02:45,717
In fact, let me ask you this.

743
01:02:45,717 --> 01:02:48,377
I talked about Ballerina Farm, right?

744
01:02:48,377 --> 01:02:59,537
And let's say they wanted to join this revolution, join the NIP-99 revolution, but get onboarded onto Conduit.

745
01:03:00,437 --> 01:03:03,217
Right. So let's assume they're listening to this somehow.

746
01:03:04,017 --> 01:03:06,237
What is the actual setup journey?

747
01:03:07,337 --> 01:03:10,197
I mean, on that one, I got to say, stay tuned for the Conduit merchant portal.

748
01:03:10,197 --> 01:03:17,577
you know we're planning on having you know really really smooth onboarding flow for them to you know

749
01:03:17,577 --> 01:03:23,917
all the way all the way down to creating an NSEC and storing it in a secure manner but yeah right

750
01:03:23,917 --> 01:03:29,317
now the flow we don't have a flow for getting on condo we're sort of leveraging you know standing

751
01:03:29,317 --> 01:03:33,317
on the shoulders of what other other good folks have done and so I would encourage them actually

752
01:03:33,317 --> 01:03:39,817
to go to to Shopster or Plebeian or even Cypher Space to create their first profile if they're if

753
01:03:39,817 --> 01:03:41,097
if they're technically minded.

754
01:03:41,217 --> 01:03:44,797
We're all working on increasing the satisfaction

755
01:03:44,797 --> 01:03:48,677
and smoothness of the onboarding flow for merchants.

756
01:03:50,457 --> 01:03:52,677
But if I wanted to do it, right,

757
01:03:53,157 --> 01:03:54,617
forget Ballerina Farm,

758
01:03:54,737 --> 01:03:57,217
maybe I have some, I don't know,

759
01:03:57,337 --> 01:03:59,857
whatever I want to sell on Nostra,

760
01:03:59,857 --> 01:04:04,297
how would I actually even sign a NIP99 event?

761
01:04:05,197 --> 01:04:06,957
Oh, I mean, that would be pretty easy through Shopster.

762
01:04:08,397 --> 01:04:08,577
Okay.

763
01:04:08,577 --> 01:04:14,517
Yeah, you would just, just through his flow, you can just generate, make a product and post it quite easily.

764
01:04:15,797 --> 01:04:17,237
Okay, so I just log in, presume.

765
01:04:18,497 --> 01:04:23,557
I'm ashamed to say I haven't used Shopster before, and I've been hearing about it for over two years now.

766
01:04:23,937 --> 01:04:28,937
So I go to Shopster, I sign in with my browser extension, so I'm there.

767
01:04:29,077 --> 01:04:33,657
Then there's some kind of UI where I put in the product description,

768
01:04:33,657 --> 01:04:37,877
and then it automatically creates, signs the event, and sends it off to the relay.

769
01:04:38,017 --> 01:04:38,137
Okay.

770
01:04:38,577 --> 01:04:41,037
I mean, honestly, you should have Calvo on the show, too.

771
01:04:41,157 --> 01:04:46,937
I think the more of us that get out there and put the good word out about what we're all trying to do,

772
01:04:47,057 --> 01:04:49,357
the better it's going to be for all of us.

773
01:04:49,477 --> 01:04:52,077
I mean, I'm not here just for myself, man.

774
01:04:52,197 --> 01:04:53,157
It's for all of us.

775
01:04:53,217 --> 01:04:58,437
But it is actually kind of selfish, too, though, because the more successful one of us is,

776
01:04:58,457 --> 01:04:59,757
the more successful we're all going to be.

777
01:05:00,557 --> 01:05:02,957
This is why I love Nostra and Bitcoin.

778
01:05:04,257 --> 01:05:06,937
Fiat world is completely zero sum, right?

779
01:05:06,937 --> 01:05:09,857
If you winning means someone else is losing, right?

780
01:05:09,937 --> 01:05:10,637
And vice versa.

781
01:05:11,357 --> 01:05:15,217
If Nordstrom Bitcoin, you build something that improves the protocol,

782
01:05:15,377 --> 01:05:17,677
everyone else using the protocol, because it's free and open,

783
01:05:18,477 --> 01:05:19,557
their lives improve.

784
01:05:19,697 --> 01:05:23,257
So it's just the beautiful positive sum rising tide effect.

785
01:05:23,777 --> 01:05:24,197
Exactly.

786
01:05:26,097 --> 01:05:29,457
Shadrach just reminded me of something when I was talking about selling things,

787
01:05:29,537 --> 01:05:30,837
and he said, a book perhaps.

788
01:05:31,237 --> 01:05:33,617
So here's a question that's kind of been bugging me.

789
01:05:33,617 --> 01:05:39,577
I was with Chief Monkey at BitFest in Manchester, and I put this bug in his ear, and he said,

790
01:05:39,757 --> 01:05:42,497
hey, man, there's literally nothing I can do because we live in a fiat world.

791
01:05:43,797 --> 01:05:54,817
No, and about this very specific thing, which is it is really hard to have a simple workflow for selling.

792
01:05:55,657 --> 01:05:59,077
So I'm talking about myself as an author for selling my book for Bitcoin.

793
01:05:59,077 --> 01:06:04,097
because the issue is I'm self-published, right?

794
01:06:04,137 --> 01:06:07,877
So I have to rely on a print-on-demand service.

795
01:06:08,597 --> 01:06:13,937
And Amazon offers the most scalable and the cheapest one, unfortunately,

796
01:06:14,217 --> 01:06:15,577
as they tend to, right?

797
01:06:16,537 --> 01:06:17,857
And there are others.

798
01:06:17,957 --> 01:06:18,897
There's IngramSpark.

799
01:06:18,997 --> 01:06:20,197
There's another one called Lulu.

800
01:06:20,197 --> 01:06:22,157
And there's another one called Printful.

801
01:06:23,257 --> 01:06:26,917
I mean, the key thing with a lot of these players, right,

802
01:06:26,917 --> 01:06:42,717
It needs to be a company that has a global footprint, meaning it needs to have their machines or their warehouses where they spit out these print-on-demand books in different continents just to ensure that they can ship the books to buyers in these continents.

803
01:06:44,157 --> 01:06:50,417
And the way it works is someone places, you know, as a writer, I have the manuscript, I have the cover.

804
01:06:50,737 --> 01:06:52,097
There's some specifications, right?

805
01:06:52,117 --> 01:06:56,057
I have to meet all those specifications, the cover dimensions, all of that stuff, right?

806
01:06:56,057 --> 01:07:00,337
And all of that is just stuff you have to deal with as an author.

807
01:07:00,737 --> 01:07:02,557
So you do all of that, you upload all of that,

808
01:07:02,697 --> 01:07:05,337
and then the book gets listed on Amazon or on,

809
01:07:05,857 --> 01:07:07,817
in the case of something like IngramSpark,

810
01:07:07,877 --> 01:07:09,977
it's more of a B2B company.

811
01:07:10,517 --> 01:07:15,237
So for example, they work with front ends like Barnes & Noble

812
01:07:15,237 --> 01:07:18,297
or Target or Walmart or whatever.

813
01:07:18,537 --> 01:07:21,717
So if the book gets listed on Target, it gets listed on Walmart,

814
01:07:22,357 --> 01:07:23,577
someone places an order,

815
01:07:23,577 --> 01:07:27,057
it then triggers this print-on-demand process, right?

816
01:07:27,137 --> 01:07:28,697
And because they have the specification,

817
01:07:28,877 --> 01:07:29,937
the book, the cover, and everything,

818
01:07:30,877 --> 01:07:32,777
whether hardback has one specification,

819
01:07:33,017 --> 01:07:34,097
paperback has another one,

820
01:07:34,537 --> 01:07:36,337
the thing gets printed, and it gets shipped out.

821
01:07:36,937 --> 01:07:40,597
So set aside the fact that these are all horrible fiat companies,

822
01:07:41,117 --> 01:07:46,057
just that process itself is just a massive blessing in disguise

823
01:07:46,057 --> 01:07:48,857
for self-published independent authors, right?

824
01:07:48,917 --> 01:07:51,637
Because otherwise you're screwed.

825
01:07:51,637 --> 01:07:58,137
So unless a publisher picks you up and they have the infrastructure and machinery, you're kind of on your own.

826
01:07:58,157 --> 01:07:58,897
That makes perfect sense.

827
01:07:58,897 --> 01:08:03,537
Now, the problem with all of these places is they're still fiat companies.

828
01:08:03,897 --> 01:08:06,697
So this is the conversation I was having with Chief Monkey.

829
01:08:06,917 --> 01:08:13,337
And I said, is there some way in which you can hook up to a print-on-demand service with Playbion?

830
01:08:13,597 --> 01:08:15,537
And then that way is just easier.

831
01:08:15,697 --> 01:08:17,537
People can buy my book for Bitcoin.

832
01:08:17,997 --> 01:08:20,697
And he said the problem is none of these places except Bitcoin.

833
01:08:20,697 --> 01:08:22,837
And he doesn't want to dip into fiat.

834
01:08:23,097 --> 01:08:26,417
Completely understandable and honorably doesn't want to touch fiat.

835
01:08:26,797 --> 01:08:32,957
His platform accepts Bitcoin, and then he just wants to push that.

836
01:08:33,137 --> 01:08:35,897
If a print-on-demand service accepts Bitcoin, that's it.

837
01:08:36,077 --> 01:08:36,557
Easy.

838
01:08:37,457 --> 01:08:39,337
Except that that's not there.

839
01:08:39,497 --> 01:08:42,857
So I don't know if you had a chance to think about something like this, Eric,

840
01:08:42,917 --> 01:08:47,497
but this would be a huge boon to Bitcoin authors who want to offer that,

841
01:08:48,197 --> 01:08:49,997
maintain their independence and their sovereignty,

842
01:08:49,997 --> 01:08:53,037
and then still offer a Bitcoin payment option for their books?

843
01:08:54,137 --> 01:08:56,097
Yeah, I mean, that is a really interesting problem,

844
01:08:56,217 --> 01:08:58,617
but I think it is solvable,

845
01:08:59,177 --> 01:09:03,657
but it may in the short term come with just a bit of centralization.

846
01:09:03,657 --> 01:09:10,697
So I think the risk, besides ideologically not wanting to deal in fiat at all,

847
01:09:10,817 --> 01:09:13,997
which is very honorable of Chief Monkey,

848
01:09:14,477 --> 01:09:19,657
there's the other tricky bit where if you're helping facilitate

849
01:09:19,657 --> 01:09:26,057
you know, conversions from Bitcoin to fiat, then you risk, you know, depending on how your flow

850
01:09:26,057 --> 01:09:30,397
is set up, you risk becoming basically a money transmitter, which, you know, nobody wants to get

851
01:09:30,397 --> 01:09:38,337
involved in that. But, you know, that being said, you know, if you used a third party,

852
01:09:38,637 --> 01:09:43,297
like a strike or something like that for the conversion step, there actually doesn't seem

853
01:09:43,297 --> 01:09:49,497
to be a technical reason why someone couldn't, you know, set up, uh, you know, an enhanced, uh,

854
01:09:49,497 --> 01:09:57,097
flow that would work, uh, with an IP 99, uh, type market, but you, you, you there, but in that design,

855
01:09:57,097 --> 01:10:01,997
there is a centralization around like strike, for example, I, again, I don't know if this,

856
01:10:02,217 --> 01:10:06,877
if this is possible. I'm just using them as an example. Um, so, so there'd be, there'd be trade

857
01:10:06,877 --> 01:10:12,677
offs, but, um, I actually do think that's a really interesting thing for someone, uh, uh, to build,

858
01:10:12,677 --> 01:10:17,557
once some of this tooling is there.

859
01:10:19,797 --> 01:10:23,517
Yeah, the conversion to the person accepting fiat

860
01:10:23,517 --> 01:10:25,757
is definitely the tricky step.

861
01:10:26,777 --> 01:10:28,817
Obviously, if they don't accept Bitcoin,

862
01:10:28,917 --> 01:10:29,957
that makes things a lot easier.

863
01:10:29,957 --> 01:10:33,297
But if you can find somebody to convert,

864
01:10:33,637 --> 01:10:34,817
and especially if you can delegate that

865
01:10:34,817 --> 01:10:37,857
because you don't want to become a money transmitter,

866
01:10:38,057 --> 01:10:39,737
I think this is actually technically achievable.

867
01:10:39,737 --> 01:10:48,217
so i'd say like stay tuned you know we're i unfortunately the answers i give you today

868
01:10:48,217 --> 01:10:54,457
on this podcast are not the answers that i want to give you in the future um you know like like i

869
01:10:54,457 --> 01:11:02,497
we are we are early we are very very very early um once once we see the flow uh end to end uh on

870
01:11:02,497 --> 01:11:08,417
multiple marketplaces i think i i really do i mean i wouldn't have invested as much you know time

871
01:11:08,417 --> 01:11:14,137
capital and energy into this project if I didn't believe it was going anywhere. And I think the

872
01:11:14,137 --> 01:11:19,857
future is really bright and it's really open to solving, you know, niche problems like this

873
01:11:19,857 --> 01:11:25,557
through specific services. You know, we have an interoperable marketplace protocol who says

874
01:11:25,557 --> 01:11:30,637
someone can't come in and focus on books. You know, who says someone can't come in and even focus on

875
01:11:30,637 --> 01:11:37,137
alcohol. So like a Ben Justman could get his products, you know, listed and legally shipped

876
01:11:37,137 --> 01:11:37,817
and all that.

877
01:11:38,137 --> 01:11:40,057
Like these are all solvable problems

878
01:11:40,057 --> 01:11:42,637
once we have a, you know,

879
01:11:42,697 --> 01:11:43,637
we've laid the foundations

880
01:11:43,637 --> 01:11:44,857
through the protocol layer

881
01:11:44,857 --> 01:11:46,357
and through some of the tooling.

882
01:11:47,017 --> 01:11:49,037
I'm actually going to show something else

883
01:11:49,037 --> 01:11:51,437
that Calva hit me up with recently.

884
01:11:52,197 --> 01:11:54,457
He's making a BTC pay server plugin,

885
01:11:54,717 --> 01:11:56,697
which is going to allow BTC pay merchants

886
01:11:56,697 --> 01:11:57,957
to sync their product inventory

887
01:11:57,957 --> 01:11:59,197
and payment information to Noster

888
01:11:59,197 --> 01:12:03,117
via NIP99 and our gamma market spec.

889
01:12:03,257 --> 01:12:05,237
So like these things

890
01:12:05,237 --> 01:12:06,277
are coming down the pipeline

891
01:12:06,277 --> 01:12:08,877
and none of us are stopping.

892
01:12:10,057 --> 01:12:11,977
So don't be surprised if, you know,

893
01:12:12,337 --> 01:12:14,097
sometime in the future,

894
01:12:14,617 --> 01:12:16,157
hopefully I get to come back on

895
01:12:16,157 --> 01:12:18,397
or one of these great gentlemen get to come back on

896
01:12:18,397 --> 01:12:20,317
and we're talking, you're saying,

897
01:12:20,397 --> 01:12:21,937
hey, you know, can I sell my book through this?

898
01:12:22,257 --> 01:12:23,937
Yeah, someone's working on that.

899
01:12:24,417 --> 01:12:25,137
That'd be really cool.

900
01:12:26,657 --> 01:12:28,457
I think the perfect solution is,

901
01:12:28,457 --> 01:12:31,837
I hear what you're saying about the strike solution.

902
01:12:32,037 --> 01:12:34,177
It's not ideal, again, because you're centralizing there.

903
01:12:34,177 --> 01:12:36,837
The problem is someone wanting fiat.

904
01:12:38,417 --> 01:12:42,237
We've got to get rid of those people, get those people out of the equation.

905
01:12:42,417 --> 01:12:44,497
So I think maybe a call to arms.

906
01:12:44,757 --> 01:13:04,583
I don know how economically viable this is but if there are any Bitcoin whales who want to see Bitcoin authors be able to sell their books for Bitcoin just set up a print service maybe invest in a handful of machines one in each continent And I think that that a good

907
01:13:04,583 --> 01:13:10,383
starting point, right? Maybe like five or six machines spread across the world. Right now,

908
01:13:10,443 --> 01:13:16,343
Bitcoin authors are just, it's not a massive supply site, right? There were less than 100,

909
01:13:16,343 --> 01:13:18,183
maybe 200 at best.

910
01:13:18,623 --> 01:13:20,003
So we're not talking a lot of books.

911
01:13:20,083 --> 01:13:22,163
We don't need a lot of heavy duty machinery.

912
01:13:23,263 --> 01:13:25,103
Just set them up across the world.

913
01:13:25,363 --> 01:13:28,723
And it's probably a low margin thing

914
01:13:28,723 --> 01:13:30,023
because we don't have the scale yet.

915
01:13:31,303 --> 01:13:34,523
But yeah, that would solve a lot of these problems.

916
01:13:35,463 --> 01:13:39,843
And at risk of everybody hating me for saying this,

917
01:13:40,503 --> 01:13:45,083
stable coins are not the direction we want to go long term,

918
01:13:45,083 --> 01:13:49,263
but short term, they can be used as gateway drugs for Bitcoin.

919
01:13:50,563 --> 01:13:55,323
So while some of these services may not intend to

920
01:13:55,323 --> 01:13:58,643
or don't have Bitcoin on the roadmap,

921
01:13:58,803 --> 01:14:01,423
a lot of them do have stable coins on their roadmap.

922
01:14:02,323 --> 01:14:07,963
And I would love to talk to Chief Monkey

923
01:14:07,963 --> 01:14:09,763
or really anybody about this,

924
01:14:09,923 --> 01:14:13,923
but my mentality is I'll use any tool available to me

925
01:14:13,923 --> 01:14:16,183
to get people to the promised land.

926
01:14:16,643 --> 01:14:21,383
And if it needs to be some inferior technology

927
01:14:21,383 --> 01:14:24,883
because it's currently sponsored by certain entities,

928
01:14:25,163 --> 01:14:25,883
then so be it.

929
01:14:27,363 --> 01:14:34,643
I think that that will probably work reasonably quicker,

930
01:14:34,763 --> 01:14:37,143
just the way things are going in that market.

931
01:14:38,003 --> 01:14:40,663
But Nostra is technically payment agnostic,

932
01:14:40,663 --> 01:14:59,543
So, you know, allowing merchants, booksellers or anybody for that matter to get cash flow positive in any terms, whether it's fiat or Bitcoin, is going to be the thing that allows people to get more Bitcoin on their balance sheet.

933
01:14:59,543 --> 01:15:06,423
and you know the to me some I think some people miss the the forest for the trees on this one

934
01:15:06,423 --> 01:15:12,983
it's like we need to get as many people as possible on on these open protocols and you

935
01:15:12,983 --> 01:15:19,403
know how we get there you know people are going to take different approaches yeah I hear what

936
01:15:19,403 --> 01:15:25,523
you're saying Eric I think if I had to sort of put it in order of what I like obviously Bitcoin

937
01:15:25,523 --> 01:15:30,883
only, just find a publisher, not publisher, a print-on-demand service that is willing to accept

938
01:15:30,883 --> 01:15:36,383
Bitcoin. That really solves the problem in the cleanest way. I think the next compromise would

939
01:15:36,383 --> 01:15:42,163
be to have some kind of fiat ramp, on-ramp, like a strike, obviously create centralization.

940
01:15:42,943 --> 01:15:48,063
The third, I think, is what you're saying, which is have a stable coin in the mix. And then the

941
01:15:48,063 --> 01:15:52,663
last one, obviously, is no Bitcoin. You just pay with your credit card. That one sucks completely

942
01:15:52,663 --> 01:15:54,283
because it comes with like a ton of fees.

943
01:15:54,603 --> 01:15:56,443
And I hope to skip that last one.

944
01:15:57,103 --> 01:16:00,803
But I think like Bitcoin is going to win

945
01:16:00,803 --> 01:16:05,323
because you see this when you're developing these products.

946
01:16:05,483 --> 01:16:07,483
It's the easiest thing to implement.

947
01:16:08,283 --> 01:16:10,423
Like it's the easiest payment method to implement.

948
01:16:10,623 --> 01:16:15,023
And it's the one that actually has the least risk of implementing

949
01:16:15,023 --> 01:16:16,783
because I don't get involved in the transaction at all.

950
01:16:16,903 --> 01:16:17,463
Like that's beautiful.

951
01:16:17,463 --> 01:16:18,663
It has properties.

952
01:16:18,663 --> 01:16:21,783
that's going to make it win

953
01:16:21,783 --> 01:16:24,723
regardless of what comes first.

954
01:16:25,323 --> 01:16:27,683
And I sort of trust in that

955
01:16:27,683 --> 01:16:29,643
and know that that's going to happen long term

956
01:16:29,643 --> 01:16:31,423
and so I'm going to accelerate anything

957
01:16:31,423 --> 01:16:33,923
that moves that future forward

958
01:16:33,923 --> 01:16:38,763
even if it involves, for lack of a better word,

959
01:16:38,843 --> 01:16:40,683
like a shortcut or a hack in the meantime.

960
01:16:41,543 --> 01:16:42,923
That's all these things are.

961
01:16:43,063 --> 01:16:45,103
They're just like digital dollars.

962
01:16:45,103 --> 01:16:47,703
It's kind of like a hack to get to the real thing

963
01:16:47,703 --> 01:16:49,123
which is Bitcoin.

964
01:16:52,563 --> 01:16:54,243
Yes, that is the hope anyway,

965
01:16:54,483 --> 01:16:58,503
that you don't have a central entity like Tether or whatever

966
01:16:58,503 --> 01:17:02,123
suddenly come in and change the direction in between.

967
01:17:02,743 --> 01:17:06,683
But yes, the best case scenario is it is the gateway drug

968
01:17:06,683 --> 01:17:08,463
and ultimately it does lead to Bitcoin.

969
01:17:10,083 --> 01:17:12,263
I think I remember reading something on your website

970
01:17:12,263 --> 01:17:13,443
about conduit coffee.

971
01:17:13,843 --> 01:17:16,083
Am I making stuff up, Eric, or is that real?

972
01:17:16,083 --> 01:17:17,323
It was real.

973
01:17:17,323 --> 01:17:24,303
we've shut it down for now. Okay. So originally, yeah, we did start just by making a coffee shop

974
01:17:24,303 --> 01:17:30,543
and trying to sell coffee for Bitcoin. And we were just posting about our Noster and then trying to

975
01:17:30,543 --> 01:17:37,223
implement the original NIP 15 marketplace. But my thinking around that as someone who's running

976
01:17:37,223 --> 01:17:43,023
now a software development company, is that like, what is the best way to learn how to build the

977
01:17:43,023 --> 01:17:50,303
software that your customers want is to actually be one of those customers yourself. So I do want

978
01:17:50,303 --> 01:17:57,903
to eventually actually be a merchant on, you know, NIP 99 marketplaces again, because that to me gives

979
01:17:57,903 --> 01:18:04,623
Conduit a feedback loop of what tooling we're actually, you know, trying to convince other

980
01:18:04,623 --> 01:18:12,723
people to use as well. So the revival of Conduit Coffee will happen at some point. There's definitely

981
01:18:12,723 --> 01:18:20,663
going to be a Conduit merch store. And, you know, that to me is a feedback loop for the experience

982
01:18:20,663 --> 01:18:32,483
of the merchants. It's also a feedback loop for me with, you know, the brand of Conduit. Like,

983
01:18:32,483 --> 01:18:39,003
if people are actually wanting to buy Conduit merch or Conduit coffee, that means they like

984
01:18:39,003 --> 01:18:44,523
what we're doing and are willing to, to support us through, you know, some small revenue, uh, there.

985
01:18:44,603 --> 01:18:50,243
So there's a couple of signals there that I'm, I'm excited to, to revamp and, and get, you know,

986
01:18:50,243 --> 01:18:55,983
back under our hood right now. But we shut that down because it was a little bit of overhead and,

987
01:18:55,983 --> 01:19:02,263
um, you know, I like to sell quality goods if I'm, I'm, I'm shilling, you know, quality, quality,

988
01:19:02,363 --> 01:19:06,783
quality. So I got to make sure that, uh, the coffee beans have been roasted within a certain

989
01:19:06,783 --> 01:19:11,883
timeframe. And, um, if you don't have enough volume, you, you can't maintain that. And I'm

990
01:19:11,883 --> 01:19:16,963
not going to go to a third party and just resell some crappy beans. So, uh, that's, that's where

991
01:19:16,963 --> 01:19:21,603
that's at, but do expect that to come back in the future. I'm, I'm determined, uh, to make that

992
01:19:21,603 --> 01:19:29,743
happen. So, so let's talk about the future. You're right now in alpha when beta and when general

993
01:19:29,743 --> 01:19:35,283
availability? I mean, the alpha is technically available. Generally, it's just, it's only being

994
01:19:35,283 --> 01:19:44,463
advertised on on Noster. I think when Merchant Portal is probably the next most important

995
01:19:44,463 --> 01:19:49,343
question. I had wanted it by the end of this year, but that's not looking like it's going to happen.

996
01:19:50,203 --> 01:19:57,123
I'm going to set myself a stretch goal to get the alpha for Merchant Portal out by... I hate doing

997
01:19:57,123 --> 01:20:00,283
this. I hate doing this. I know there's other people that don't do this on purpose, but I kind

998
01:20:00,283 --> 01:20:07,063
of like setting setting goals let's say end of february oh you heard it here folks that's it

999
01:20:07,063 --> 01:20:13,983
it is set in stone oh shit so so many other other people that are that are a lot more experienced

1000
01:20:13,983 --> 01:20:17,603
in the software game are looking at or listening to this right now i'm going you idiot you shouldn't

1001
01:20:17,603 --> 01:20:26,943
have said that so you know in a in a prior life i used to run a product team and i it was a constant

1002
01:20:26,943 --> 01:20:34,463
And so, you know, as I matured as a product leader, I learned to recognize things in engineers.

1003
01:20:34,883 --> 01:20:39,183
So the junior engineers give you dates when you ask them, and the senior engineers don't, right?

1004
01:20:39,183 --> 01:20:41,863
They know how to play the game, right?

1005
01:20:41,963 --> 01:20:49,283
So basically the battle between the senior product manager and the senior engineer is to the question of when.

1006
01:20:49,663 --> 01:20:52,623
The product manager wants it today, immediately, or yesterday, actually.

1007
01:20:52,923 --> 01:20:55,303
And the engineer says it's going to be never ready, right?

1008
01:20:55,303 --> 01:20:58,343
The answer somewhere lies between never and yesterday.

1009
01:20:58,663 --> 01:20:58,763
Yeah.

1010
01:20:58,903 --> 01:21:04,043
And I am constantly trying to refine my skills in that arena.

1011
01:21:04,903 --> 01:21:09,703
I'm 100% heads down, focused on product right now,

1012
01:21:10,743 --> 01:21:13,343
de-scoping it to what would be an alpha

1013
01:21:13,343 --> 01:21:16,023
and getting the essential flows there.

1014
01:21:16,563 --> 01:21:20,223
That's what we are working on as we speak.

1015
01:21:22,623 --> 01:21:24,423
So as we're thinking ahead,

1016
01:21:24,423 --> 01:21:26,723
I mean, February, whatever it ends up being, right?

1017
01:21:27,623 --> 01:21:36,143
Do you have an idea of what your first few merchants that you're building for are going to look like?

1018
01:21:36,143 --> 01:21:43,743
Would there be basically coffee roasters, other artisanal vendors, food maybe, or even some digital products?

1019
01:21:44,983 --> 01:21:47,943
Do you have an idea in your head?

1020
01:21:48,343 --> 01:21:51,223
Yeah, I mean, it's the people that we already see out there.

1021
01:21:51,223 --> 01:21:56,723
I would be honored if they did choose us as their primary client.

1022
01:21:58,123 --> 01:22:05,783
So that's the Oshis, the Great Gis, the Soap Miners, BJ with her Ketolicious,

1023
01:22:07,383 --> 01:22:11,023
Ben Justman, if we somehow figure out all the dance around alcohol.

1024
01:22:11,223 --> 01:22:16,003
But there's also a lot of artists, actually, that are looking to sell things as well.

1025
01:22:16,003 --> 01:22:26,483
So I have a few people waiting in the wings that are orange-pilled but not selling their wares for Bitcoin yet.

1026
01:22:27,643 --> 01:22:32,283
Just personal friends that are going to be our alpha testers that are artists.

1027
01:22:33,483 --> 01:22:45,443
Actually, since you brought up Ben, Ben Jussman and Peony Lane, is there a different set of considerations because we're talking about wine here?

1028
01:22:46,003 --> 01:22:47,263
I'd have to ask him.

1029
01:22:48,323 --> 01:22:51,283
Last time we briefly chatted,

1030
01:22:53,043 --> 01:22:54,163
there was, as I understood,

1031
01:22:54,243 --> 01:22:55,423
there were some complications

1032
01:22:55,423 --> 01:22:58,763
with what he was allowed to,

1033
01:22:58,843 --> 01:22:59,763
you know, how he had to, like,

1034
01:23:00,123 --> 01:23:00,903
collect certain things

1035
01:23:00,903 --> 01:23:01,843
to be able to legally ship.

1036
01:23:02,003 --> 01:23:03,783
But I should check with him

1037
01:23:03,783 --> 01:23:04,903
because I've actually seen

1038
01:23:04,903 --> 01:23:07,923
people post his bottles

1039
01:23:07,923 --> 01:23:09,123
on here somewhere.

1040
01:23:10,263 --> 01:23:11,823
Well, I purchased directly from him,

1041
01:23:11,923 --> 01:23:12,723
from his website.

1042
01:23:13,723 --> 01:23:13,863
Yeah.

1043
01:23:14,543 --> 01:23:15,943
Yeah, no, as of.

1044
01:23:16,003 --> 01:23:19,863
As have I, but I need to make sure...

1045
01:23:19,889 --> 01:23:24,109
actually I want to just completely defer to him with that question.

1046
01:23:24,269 --> 01:23:28,129
You should have him on the show and ask what would the limitations be.

1047
01:23:29,629 --> 01:23:31,189
Got to get Ben back on the show.

1048
01:23:31,269 --> 01:23:32,289
So Ben, in case you're listening,

1049
01:23:33,489 --> 01:23:38,529
we want Peony Lane as a NIP99 event.

1050
01:23:38,909 --> 01:23:39,469
I agree.

1051
01:23:39,569 --> 01:23:40,249
Let's make it happen.

1052
01:23:40,249 --> 01:23:40,669
Yeah.

1053
01:23:44,489 --> 01:23:45,249
Let's see.

1054
01:23:45,249 --> 01:23:54,209
So have you, in this brief, like early stage, have you seen any emergent patterns in buyer and seller behavior?

1055
01:23:54,449 --> 01:23:59,229
Or are the numbers too thin at this stage for patterns?

1056
01:23:59,849 --> 01:24:03,389
Yeah, I wouldn't really be able to comment on that too, too well at this stage.

1057
01:24:06,369 --> 01:24:06,889
Yeah.

1058
01:24:07,569 --> 01:24:12,029
So, Eric, paint a picture of success.

1059
01:24:12,029 --> 01:24:14,289
So let's say it's 2035.

1060
01:24:15,249 --> 01:24:21,769
What is, 2035 arrives and you wake up and you're wildly successful.

1061
01:24:22,649 --> 01:24:24,209
What does that look like?

1062
01:24:26,049 --> 01:24:34,189
To me, that looks like we are one of many providers that are making a healthy living,

1063
01:24:34,369 --> 01:24:39,649
helping people as basically Noster Markets service providers.

1064
01:24:39,649 --> 01:24:54,549
To me, it would look like back in the days when we had a healthy ISP market, where you had so many different options of getting yourself connected.

1065
01:24:54,549 --> 01:24:57,629
and that we would be, you know,

1066
01:24:57,629 --> 01:25:01,289
hopefully amongst the leaders in that space,

1067
01:25:01,289 --> 01:25:04,489
but that there was a healthy, diverse market

1068
01:25:04,489 --> 01:25:08,889
of providers that were collaborating on, you know,

1069
01:25:08,889 --> 01:25:11,609
how to make the specification and the tooling

1070
01:25:11,609 --> 01:25:31,269
and the services better for their you know collective clients That would be an amazing future 10 years from now to be making an honest living and honestly employing a strong team of people competing in a market providing these

1071
01:25:31,269 --> 01:25:43,229
services. That's my version of success here. I'm not really interested in becoming or really for

1072
01:25:43,229 --> 01:25:48,629
to see anyone become like the next Jeff Bezos or whatever.

1073
01:25:49,329 --> 01:25:53,449
Like that, you know, I come from an industry

1074
01:25:53,449 --> 01:25:57,709
where things are relatively commoditized

1075
01:25:57,709 --> 01:26:00,649
and you compete in that space.

1076
01:26:01,649 --> 01:26:04,509
And when you're competing in a more open

1077
01:26:04,509 --> 01:26:07,649
sort of commoditized space, it's a lot of work,

1078
01:26:07,789 --> 01:26:09,209
but it's honest work.

1079
01:26:09,209 --> 01:26:17,509
you're trying to differentiate on other vectors customer experience you know if I were to sum it up

1080
01:26:17,509 --> 01:26:25,329
in in one thing it would be that so you know that that's a world that's a world I want to live in

1081
01:26:25,329 --> 01:26:30,669
where where people are competing on on the vectors that actually matter and not just you know

1082
01:26:30,669 --> 01:26:36,969
doing these monopolistic sort of practices and sort of screwing up and creating these monocultures

1083
01:26:36,969 --> 01:26:44,969
Another version, another way to look at that, you know, success is through the diversity that we were talking about earlier.

1084
01:26:44,969 --> 01:26:58,609
I want to be able to go to a bunch of different locales, even ones that I don't service and see NIP99 marketplaces and, you know, socially connected markets through Noster.

1085
01:26:59,209 --> 01:27:02,249
And I honestly, I want all those transactions to be happening in Bitcoin.

1086
01:27:02,249 --> 01:27:04,529
But that would be beautiful.

1087
01:27:04,649 --> 01:27:27,689
And I think the landscape of products that would flow out from those protocols being the main thing being used would be just a lot more rich diverse high quality beautiful in the world we living in today I think that is a future to look forward to And it not that far away 2035 blink and you miss it

1088
01:27:27,949 --> 01:27:34,669
It'll be right here. So if you had to say something to the audience, we potentially have

1089
01:27:34,669 --> 01:27:40,989
vendors, we have consumers listening in. How can they help you achieve that 2035 vision of this

1090
01:27:40,989 --> 01:27:46,489
ideal world that you've talked about? Today, just go mess around with what's already published

1091
01:27:46,489 --> 01:27:52,509
and give us feedback. What do you like? What do you not like? What do you love? What do you hate?

1092
01:27:53,129 --> 01:28:00,529
We want to hear all of it. We want to hear also what you're missing from the current landscape

1093
01:28:00,529 --> 01:28:09,229
of things. We want to hear, as users, I would say the feedback is the most important. Try the flows.

1094
01:28:09,549 --> 01:28:11,229
See when something doesn't work for you.

1095
01:28:11,289 --> 01:28:12,349
See when you run into a bug.

1096
01:28:13,349 --> 01:28:15,149
Message us on Noster when you run into those things.

1097
01:28:15,249 --> 01:28:19,249
That's the type of feedback that's going to keep us focused and moving forward.

1098
01:28:21,969 --> 01:28:22,549
Love it.

1099
01:28:23,549 --> 01:28:26,369
Anything else you want to plug, Eric?

1100
01:28:27,029 --> 01:28:31,209
I actually had a list of plugs, and I got to almost all of them.

1101
01:28:31,249 --> 01:28:33,969
Actually, I have a little heart next to a guy named LSAT here.

1102
01:28:33,969 --> 01:28:36,069
this guy runs around

1103
01:28:36,069 --> 01:28:37,989
and I don't know if he's like

1104
01:28:37,989 --> 01:28:40,309
he PMs multiple

1105
01:28:40,309 --> 01:28:42,269
groups to get them interoperable

1106
01:28:42,269 --> 01:28:44,329
and he was one of the people that

1107
01:28:44,329 --> 01:28:46,429
brought us in the fold early

1108
01:28:46,429 --> 01:28:48,069
so I don't know if that guy

1109
01:28:48,069 --> 01:28:50,309
he doesn't get enough credit for what he does

1110
01:28:50,309 --> 01:28:54,149
that's a guy that deserves a shout out

1111
01:28:54,149 --> 01:28:55,929
oh yeah

1112
01:28:55,929 --> 01:28:57,929
there is a story

1113
01:28:57,929 --> 01:29:00,369
the first time I met LSAT was on a beach

1114
01:29:00,369 --> 01:29:02,129
in Miami, it was I think 2am

1115
01:29:02,129 --> 01:29:04,169
and he said

1116
01:29:04,169 --> 01:29:07,089
I heard a voice in the darkness

1117
01:29:07,089 --> 01:29:08,949
say I'm LSAT

1118
01:29:08,949 --> 01:29:10,729
so of course

1119
01:29:10,729 --> 01:29:25,569
the first thing I did was I took my phone out of my pocket turned the flashlight on and shone it on his face right into his eyes I don think he was too amused but I think he forgiven me since then

1120
01:29:25,849 --> 01:29:27,469
But no, shout out to LSAT.

1121
01:29:27,469 --> 01:29:33,089
Yeah, he's a tireless steward of the protocol.

1122
01:29:33,689 --> 01:29:33,889
Yep.

1123
01:29:34,069 --> 01:29:36,489
And great stuff from him.

1124
01:29:36,509 --> 01:29:39,449
I hope to meet him under similar circumstances one day.

1125
01:29:39,449 --> 01:29:44,929
You should ask him about the story when you do chat with him.

1126
01:29:45,949 --> 01:29:51,929
So, Eric, appreciate you taking the time and, you know, really looking forward to what you're building.

1127
01:29:53,449 --> 01:30:05,969
You, Chief Monkey, Calvadev, and others who are building towards these de-commerce solutions are genuinely playing your part in making the world a freer and better place.

1128
01:30:06,189 --> 01:30:07,629
So, yeah, I appreciate everything you do.

1129
01:30:07,629 --> 01:30:08,449
Right back at you.

1130
01:30:08,449 --> 01:30:09,389
Thank you for having me.

1131
01:30:09,549 --> 01:30:11,749
And, dude, those were some awesome questions.

1132
01:30:11,829 --> 01:30:13,629
You really challenged my thinking,

1133
01:30:13,929 --> 01:30:15,929
and I'm taking a lot away from this.

1134
01:30:16,009 --> 01:30:16,529
I appreciate you.

1135
01:30:17,989 --> 01:30:18,469
Awesome.

1136
01:30:18,969 --> 01:30:21,449
And we appreciate our listeners.

1137
01:30:21,949 --> 01:30:24,169
I hope you listened to this episode

1138
01:30:24,169 --> 01:30:28,349
on a podcasting 2.0 app like Fountain

1139
01:30:28,349 --> 01:30:31,489
because if you didn't get a chance

1140
01:30:31,489 --> 01:30:34,309
to boost our artist retrograde,

1141
01:30:34,469 --> 01:30:37,249
you can go back to roughly the 59-minute mark

1142
01:30:37,249 --> 01:30:40,909
when the song begins and show them some love.

1143
01:30:41,049 --> 01:30:45,349
Send some sats streaming to Tallahassee.

1144
01:30:45,349 --> 01:30:48,829
And if you are on Fountain, we would appreciate it

1145
01:30:48,829 --> 01:30:50,329
if you hit that subscribe button.

1146
01:30:50,889 --> 01:30:54,829
Your support goes a long way in making the show what it is.

1147
01:30:55,449 --> 01:30:59,569
Thank you to our live audience for keeping a lively debate

1148
01:30:59,569 --> 01:31:06,329
going on on all the NOSTA live streaming chat apps.

1149
01:31:07,249 --> 01:31:10,429
And until next week, goodbye.