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Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses

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on the intersection of NOSTER and Bitcoin protocols.

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Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current

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thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,

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doers and plebs.

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All right, we are live.

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Welcome, gentle plebs, to the lightning-laced airwaves.

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This is episode 114 of Pleb Chain Radio, and today is Thursday, the 29th of May,

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and it is 6.01pm on the east coast of the United States.

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At the time of recording, we have a fun show ahead of you.

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Tim Boma, the Swiss Army Knife of Noster Development,

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joins us to talk about all the exciting projects he's involved in,

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and if he disagrees with my Swiss Army knife description of him.

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And just a reminder, folks, if you are listening to the show on Apple or Spotify,

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first of all, thank you for listening, but I would urge you to hit pause

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and switch over to the Fountain Podcasting app,

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where you can earn some stats and support the value-for-value revolution as you listen.

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This show is streamed live on Zap.Stream and any other Noster client that supports streaming such as Amethyst and Noster.

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And folks, I've said this before, but there is no second best Bitcoin conference because BTC Prague is indeed the best.

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And it is taking place between June 19th and June 21st of this year.

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That is just three weeks away from today.

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And you can save some sats by using discount code NOSTR, N-O-S-T-R, on tickets.

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15% off if you're paying in sats and 10% off if you are paying in dirty old fiat.

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And folks, one other bit of gratitude from me here.

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As I mentioned on last week's show,

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Finding Home, a travel show with Bitcoin in the background,

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my humble attempt at paying homage to Anthony Bourdain.

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The pilot episode premiered at the Warsaw Film Fest on Sunday.

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That was just four days ago.

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and I've heard from folks who watched it who were in Warsaw.

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So thank you, everyone.

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It means a lot to me.

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Your feedback means a lot to me.

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Please do keep it coming

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and I'm looking forward to making a successful full season

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thanks to your support.

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And for our meme readout today,

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it's Kermit the Frog sipping tea,

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looking rather pleased with himself.

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And the caption reads, Zapathon used to do more Bitcoin transactions in 30 minutes than the Las Vegas conference is trying to do in an entire day.

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But that's none of my business.

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and interestingly enough folks our top zapper last week was julie costello bringing it full circle

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around the entire costello family now featuring in our top zapper rose so julie costello aka

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a music mama

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the only manager

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who can lasso a tour bus

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homeschool calculus

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and still have time

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to remind the drummers

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to sit up straight

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you raised Ainsley to hit

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high notes that make crystal

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glasses nervous and we

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suspect it's because whenever she

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glanced at the clock instead of the

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fretboard you unleashed

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that legendary music

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mom glare potent enough to tune every guitar in the room thanks for showing the rest of us how to

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run a family a fan club and a small logistical army before breakfast take a bow julie but not

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too low someone's got to keep the rhythm section in line but honestly julie and to the entire

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Costello family, we genuinely appreciate your support and generosity. And for our sermon today,

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it is, social media was just the hors d'oeuvre. My dear gentle plebs, pull up a chair and loosen

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your belts, because tonight we're feasting on more than timeline tapas. Hear the gospel of

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Keys and relays.

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Critics love to say,

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talking about NOSTA beyond social media

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is like saying blockchain, not Bitcoin.

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Spicy take, utterly wrong recipe.

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Strip Bitcoin's scarce money from the blocks too,

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and the whole pot curdles.

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Yank the memes from NOSTA,

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and nothing collapses.

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The network keeps humming

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Because the primitive isn't the post at all

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It's the signed event that rockets from pubkey A to relay B at the speed of gossip

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Every event rides on four unbreakable truths

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First, key pair identity

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Your pubkey is your passport

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No blue check rent due

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Second, arbitrary JSON

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Flip the kind number, flip the use case

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Tweets to invoices to get commits within the same syntax breadth

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Third, zero global consensus

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Relay store, forward, forget

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No miners, no fork drama

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No committee saying, thou shalt

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Fourth, upgrades are nips, not knife-fight hardforks

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Progress happens by handshake, not holy war

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Need proof this isn't theory?

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Nip 47 turns any client into a lightning remote

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Tap a button and sats move you never even saw

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NIP57 zaps creators with micro donations that feel like emojis on steroids

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Routester allows you to pick an LLM provider of your choice and hallucinate away

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I mean chat away by using an e-cash token as an API key

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No KYC, just your ego stopping you from becoming one with AI

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And then there's Safebox

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which we'll talk about in just a little bit,

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which allows seamless issuance of verifiable credentials

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and much, much more,

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with no corporate or regulatory gatekeeper in sight.

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These aren't white paper fantasies.

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They're Tuesday afternoon for anyone brave enough

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to change one field in a JSON blob.

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So here's the entree.

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Bitcoin is hard money.

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Noster is the permissionless socket.

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Together, they form the UTXO-powered walkie-talkie of the free world

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Every app that speaks events and settles in sats

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widens the orange pill blast radius

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So, next time someone sneers

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Stick to timelines, bro

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Everything else is hype

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Hand them this appetizer plate

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and gently ask

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Ever paid an invoice through a tweet?

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Pushed code through a DM?

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Rented GPU time with a zap?

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Because on Nostra, that's not the future.

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That's dessert.

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Social media was just the hors d'oeuvre.

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The main course is censorship-proof everything.

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Served hot, paid in sats, and seasoned with sovereignty.

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And with that, it is time to welcome our guest to the show,

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Tim Boma, welcome to Plep Chain Radio.

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Hello. Can you hear me okay?

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Loud and clear, Tim.

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So we typically start our guest segments with a burning question, a hypothetical.

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So, Tim, you are walking in the burning desert of Rajasthan

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and suddenly collapse into the sand with dehydration.

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as if by magic

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a local doctor arrives on a camel

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with his medical kit

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but needs to make sure

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you don't have any pre-existing conditions

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before administering treatment

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what happens next?

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my goodness

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that's quite the scenario

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I think you're leading me

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to talk about what I've been working on. So, uh, um, your listeners might know that I was,

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my wife and I, we were in Rajasthan for three weeks, uh, about a month and a half ago or so.

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And, um, one of the, one of the scenarios that I've was looking at was just imagine

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you were in a case like that, you lost everything or you, you know, or you,

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and you wanted to provide some information.

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And one of the things I worked on in my prototype, my project,

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was this super simple QR code that you could have printed on a card, on a piece of paper.

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You could even have it etched into a bracelet where anybody could scan it with their phone,

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and it would actually make a connection via web to your NOSTA relay

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and pull up your medical information

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and present it to whoever scanned that QR code.

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And yeah, yeah.

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So I kind of forgot the question there, Avi.

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I don't know if I'm answering it.

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I'm just kind of talking about my lived experience

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and being in a situation like that.

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Well, let's play along with the question, Tim.

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You haven't fully answered it,

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but I think you're almost there.

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The doctor arrives, the local doctor arrives on camelback.

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That actually doesn't happen in Rajasthan.

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I'm just, this is just theatrical flourish here, but, and needs to administer medical

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treatment because you've collapsed in the heat due to dehydration.

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But he does, he needs to check if you have any pre-existing conditions.

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How does he check that?

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Yeah, that's one of the scenarios that I'm working through and implementing with my project.

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The simplest way presuming you in the middle of the desert with a really strong 5G signal you got data In Rajasthan there data everywhere There hardly a spot where you couldn get mobile data

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So in that scenario, again, coming back to what I've been implementing,

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I would love to just like hand a card that might actually have the information printed on it.

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A lot of people do have that.

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But then there's a QR code that they could scan.

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it could pull up all that data which you had prepared in advance or that's just part of your

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safe box if you will so you know it's a bit far in the future but one of the things that

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I've been thinking about is you know socializing the idea of a blue QR code kind of like a blue

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cross that if someone sees a blue QR code they know that they can scan that to get your health

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health information and um would maybe take a bit to get people socialized to that but

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i see that as being a pretty compelling compelling solution it's like oh we've got a person in distress

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um let's find their blue qr code let's scan it we've got all the data that we need

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um i know there's services out there that do that you have the medic medic alert bracelet i know

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there's some emergency apps you can put on your phone. Like I'm an avid cyclist. And I remember

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there was an app that would do something like that in case you got hit on the road. So yeah,

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yeah, I think something as simple as that, like that, that doctor or first responder,

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if they knew that they could find this blue QR code, scan it and get all your data

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that they need for the emergency at hand, that'd be a huge win. Technically, it's not hard at all.

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like i think we now have the uh technology uh to do it in a way that you actually have control

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over the information um you know it's kind of like uh well i wouldn't do this just like a

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microchip your pet and um they read the microchip and then it goes to some registry somewhere and it

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pulls up the data the contact information who's the owner of the pet um similar things for um

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any type of information.

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So, yeah, I think that would do the job.

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Excellent.

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And we'll get into SafeBox and that solution space in just a bit.

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Sure.

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But before that, Tim, you're obviously quite active on NOSTA,

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if not so much on the social media side,

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although you do post more at the back end,

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quietly, in the shadows, building incredible things.

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But how did you get there?

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How did you find Nostra?

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Were you a Bitcoiner before you found Nostra?

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Yeah, what is that story there, Tim?

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Maybe help people get to know the Tim Boma.

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Yeah, so I guess I first encountered Bitcoin around 2014, 2015.

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And I'm an engineer by training.

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The early part of my career, I was a software engineer.

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And then I got into product marketing and management consulting

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and all that business kind of stuff.

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But engineer at heart, a mechanical engineer, not a computer scientist.

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And I just remember 2015, picking up, learning about it,

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and then picking up Anton Antonopoulos' book, Mastering Bitcoin,

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and basically read that from cover to cover and was totally enthralled

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with the concepts in there.

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and then then I learned a little bit about Ethereum.

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Ethereum was kind of a thing back then as well

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and then it really started a journey for me

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to really learn about cryptography right from first principles

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and I think from about 2000, yeah 2015

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yeah probably up to about I don't know 2020

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I wouldn't call it a detour, but I'm a first principles kind of guy.

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And I don't believe in magic.

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I believe in mystery, but I don't believe in magic.

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And I really wanted to understand the math behind what was going on with Bitcoin.

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And so that got me into public key cryptography and learning like all the mathematical theory like around, you know, finite groups and RSA algorithms and elliptic curves and learning that.

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I found an excellent book, a textbook, Applied Cryptography, by a German prof, Christoph Parr.

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And I devoured that whole book.

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It took me about the better part of a year to go through that book to really understand all the math.

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And then, I think it was about 2018, 2019, when Jimmy Song's book came out.

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on uh programming bitcoin so i got that and um started going through that and then that really

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got me onto python um and i really focused on hand coding those examples and really understanding

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what was going on there just just for the love of it i just got totally obsessed with it just

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for the love of it and um you know just things snowballed from there you know then i got um

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then anton antonopoulos came out with his book um mastering lightning i think that was out in 2021

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2020 and i went through that book and really really dug into lightning and the theory of how

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the channels work how the um uh you know notionally like uh you know how the cryptography works for

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you know the the bitcoin transactions that anchor the channels to the bitcoin blockchain

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and understanding understanding that stuff and then um in i think it was mid 2022

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summer 2022 I became aware of an open source project on Xiaomi and tokens

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I forget the name of the initial project there was someone that did a proof of concept that said

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hey David Chalm did some cool stuff in the 80s you know his company flamed out because of like

239
00:18:35,572 --> 00:18:40,752
management issues and you still needed a centralized clearing system underneath

240
00:18:40,752 --> 00:18:45,332
that kind of was a problem that couldn't go away.

241
00:18:46,612 --> 00:18:50,052
And then someone in the mid-90s, I forget his name,

242
00:18:50,192 --> 00:18:52,372
I think it was David Wagner, came out with an email saying,

243
00:18:52,372 --> 00:18:56,592
hmm, you could take the Shamian scheme.

244
00:18:57,692 --> 00:19:00,312
RSA is pretty hard and complex.

245
00:19:00,552 --> 00:19:03,972
Let's try this new kind of elliptic curve cryptography stuff

246
00:19:03,972 --> 00:19:09,672
and did a proof of concept or hypothetical like in the email.

247
00:19:10,752 --> 00:19:15,032
And then I forget who the person was on GitHub.

248
00:19:15,192 --> 00:19:17,272
I think the handle is Firou, I believe,

249
00:19:17,512 --> 00:19:21,352
did a project where they just approved the concept.

250
00:19:23,212 --> 00:19:25,932
And then that's when I became aware of Callie,

251
00:19:26,372 --> 00:19:33,152
who started the whole nutshell or the nuts or the cashew.

252
00:19:33,952 --> 00:19:35,712
And I was right there from day one,

253
00:19:35,792 --> 00:19:38,072
and I was thoroughly fascinated with it.

254
00:19:38,252 --> 00:19:40,492
Like, once again, I went right down to first principles

255
00:19:40,492 --> 00:19:44,692
on the cryptography, really understood how the blinded signatures work,

256
00:19:44,892 --> 00:19:46,292
how the cryptography worked.

257
00:19:46,412 --> 00:19:52,292
I also learned how it integrated with lightning and understood that.

258
00:19:52,392 --> 00:19:55,012
So I was literally there from day one.

259
00:19:55,592 --> 00:20:00,572
And by that time, I was fairly proficient in Python.

260
00:20:01,212 --> 00:20:05,592
So then, you know, I started to poke around in the code for the mints and that.

261
00:20:05,592 --> 00:20:32,152
And then I created the concept that I worked on was, hmm, now I can create a, like all the custodial lightning systems were account-based, meaning that, yeah, you have lightning, but at the end of the day, things like Walla to Satoshi and Blink and that,

262
00:20:32,152 --> 00:20:39,032
They pretty much just have an accounting system at the end point that keeps track of what your funds were.

263
00:20:39,592 --> 00:20:47,072
And I realized that this was an ultimately different way where I could actually issue the tokens and then store them on the user's behalf.

264
00:20:47,212 --> 00:20:51,272
So that set me down the path of creating my own version of a wallet.

265
00:20:51,512 --> 00:20:52,552
I know Cali had one.

266
00:20:52,652 --> 00:20:54,212
There's about four or five different versions.

267
00:20:55,212 --> 00:20:58,372
But I started to work on my own.

268
00:20:58,872 --> 00:21:00,792
Again, this is late 2022.

269
00:21:02,152 --> 00:21:11,732
And then I guess just being part of the flock, learned about Noster and got interested in that.

270
00:21:12,632 --> 00:21:16,932
And then that was late 2022, I believe.

271
00:21:18,152 --> 00:21:24,732
And I think that's when Jack Dorsey came on the scene that really sort of hyper, hyper charged it.

272
00:21:24,732 --> 00:21:29,352
and then I got totally fascinated with Zaps

273
00:21:29,352 --> 00:21:32,952
and started to play around with that

274
00:21:32,952 --> 00:21:36,752
and figured out how to integrate that into my project as well.

275
00:21:36,852 --> 00:21:43,052
I just remember, I think it was the first Nostra Conference,

276
00:21:43,192 --> 00:21:44,712
Nostrica in Costa Rica,

277
00:21:45,712 --> 00:21:52,532
and I literally remember, I think it was Will or JB55

278
00:21:52,532 --> 00:21:57,092
and Jack and I think NVK was there as well,

279
00:21:57,172 --> 00:22:00,372
literally at the panel discussion talking about ZAPS and that,

280
00:22:00,452 --> 00:22:03,912
and here I am at home and kind of implementing concepts.

281
00:22:04,252 --> 00:22:06,272
I was literally hearing the panel discussion saying,

282
00:22:06,552 --> 00:22:07,792
hey, I can do that, okay.

283
00:22:08,172 --> 00:22:10,492
And then a couple hours later, I was like, hey, I did that.

284
00:22:11,432 --> 00:22:15,272
So, you know, I've really been on the, you know,

285
00:22:15,312 --> 00:22:18,532
I really pay attention to what the new ideas are,

286
00:22:18,532 --> 00:22:21,432
what the new creative discourse is,

287
00:22:21,432 --> 00:22:26,312
and then I say, how the heck can I actually make that work?

288
00:22:26,472 --> 00:22:30,732
Again, I don't care about the blue sky or magic possibilities.

289
00:22:31,012 --> 00:22:33,612
It's like I just want to engineer the stuff

290
00:22:33,612 --> 00:22:37,272
and understand the mechanisms that actually make things work.

291
00:22:37,472 --> 00:22:41,332
And then we can talk about where I've evolved the concept of Safebox,

292
00:22:41,512 --> 00:22:47,252
but I hope that kind of answers your question of my trajectory to where I am.

293
00:22:48,472 --> 00:22:49,552
No, it certainly does.

294
00:22:49,552 --> 00:22:53,892
you were not at Nostrika

295
00:22:53,892 --> 00:22:55,432
you were watching the live stream correct?

296
00:22:55,692 --> 00:22:58,472
Yeah and I have to say

297
00:22:58,472 --> 00:23:00,532
how valuable those live streams are

298
00:23:00,532 --> 00:23:02,512
so if anyone's

299
00:23:02,512 --> 00:23:04,212
having any second thoughts about these conferences

300
00:23:04,212 --> 00:23:05,912
and not doing live streams

301
00:23:05,912 --> 00:23:07,172
they are super important

302
00:23:07,172 --> 00:23:09,732
I learned a lot from those live streams

303
00:23:09,732 --> 00:23:12,832
No certainly

304
00:23:12,832 --> 00:23:15,092
I think a lot of us were watching

305
00:23:15,092 --> 00:23:16,612
Nostrika was what

306
00:23:16,612 --> 00:23:19,412
just three months after the Jack Dorsey

307
00:23:19,412 --> 00:23:32,264
wave began It was in March of 23 and a lot of us were new to Nostra around then and super excited by it So that live stream certainly was great

308
00:23:33,324 --> 00:23:35,184
So Tim, before we talk about Safebox,

309
00:23:35,304 --> 00:23:37,344
you heard the sermon. It was really

310
00:23:37,344 --> 00:23:39,184
about the other stuff on

311
00:23:39,184 --> 00:23:40,704
NOSTA, right, as opposed to

312
00:23:40,704 --> 00:23:43,184
just the social media use case, which obviously

313
00:23:43,184 --> 00:23:45,124
is the low-hanging fruit and

314
00:23:45,124 --> 00:23:45,684
gets

315
00:23:45,684 --> 00:23:49,064
people easily excited.

316
00:23:49,964 --> 00:23:50,284
But

317
00:23:50,284 --> 00:23:51,964
have you heard

318
00:23:51,964 --> 00:23:54,764
the criticism that goes around that

319
00:23:54,764 --> 00:23:56,664
saying NOSTA is

320
00:23:56,664 --> 00:23:58,784
valuable for something

321
00:23:58,784 --> 00:24:00,564
other than social media is the same as

322
00:24:00,564 --> 00:24:02,464
saying blockchain not Bitcoin?

323
00:24:04,584 --> 00:24:04,964
No.

324
00:24:05,384 --> 00:24:05,724
No.

325
00:24:06,944 --> 00:24:08,804
I go back to I think one of the

326
00:24:08,804 --> 00:24:10,604
comments that Jack Dorsey made

327
00:24:10,604 --> 00:24:12,704
probably about three years ago. He said

328
00:24:12,704 --> 00:24:16,784
you have to discover the use

329
00:24:16,784 --> 00:24:18,844
cases. There's use cases that we might not

330
00:24:18,844 --> 00:24:19,844
even know exist yet.

331
00:24:20,284 --> 00:24:25,364
And I really took that comment to heart.

332
00:24:26,884 --> 00:24:41,464
And while Noster initially found its genesis in being a replacement

333
00:24:41,464 --> 00:24:46,024
to the traditional social media, as we know it,

334
00:24:46,024 --> 00:24:50,504
like namely Twitter and the other digital platforms,

335
00:24:51,184 --> 00:24:54,884
I've been studying the protocol very closely.

336
00:24:56,504 --> 00:25:01,984
And I always come back to the genius of the protocol,

337
00:25:02,224 --> 00:25:04,264
Fiat Jeff, who came up with it.

338
00:25:04,264 --> 00:25:08,264
It was like, I don't know, maybe it's not divine conception,

339
00:25:09,164 --> 00:25:10,104
but it's pretty close.

340
00:25:10,104 --> 00:25:18,584
and what he had defined a protocol that works great for social media,

341
00:25:19,584 --> 00:25:26,644
but he actually unintentionally solved some other problems, some interoperability problems.

342
00:25:26,644 --> 00:25:31,764
And I think you touched on it on your introduction.

343
00:25:31,764 --> 00:25:36,424
is what's beautiful about the NOSTER protocol

344
00:25:36,424 --> 00:25:41,264
is that you don't got to worry about the cryptography.

345
00:25:41,384 --> 00:25:41,984
I know it works.

346
00:25:42,924 --> 00:25:44,604
And they've chosen the curves.

347
00:25:44,944 --> 00:25:46,604
They've chosen the signature algorithms.

348
00:25:47,024 --> 00:25:50,204
So I don't need to bother with the cryptography anymore.

349
00:25:50,304 --> 00:25:52,484
I know it just works, and I just find libraries that work.

350
00:25:53,204 --> 00:25:56,784
But the real genius of NOSTER was this notion of kinds.

351
00:25:57,444 --> 00:26:00,204
It enables all these different event kinds.

352
00:26:00,204 --> 00:26:09,664
Of course, there's a few that are reserved for social media, kind one and kind zero for metadata and the other kinds.

353
00:26:10,924 --> 00:26:25,624
But it all of a sudden opened up an entirely green field of a semantic frontier that you could actually build anything on and imbue your own meaning based on your kinds.

354
00:26:25,624 --> 00:26:29,284
and you can build anything you want

355
00:26:29,284 --> 00:26:33,464
without any permission from the protocol gods, if you will.

356
00:26:33,984 --> 00:26:35,744
You just follow like NIP01

357
00:26:35,744 --> 00:26:40,344
and the relays will just like store forward and forget

358
00:26:40,344 --> 00:26:42,104
and you're in business.

359
00:26:43,024 --> 00:26:46,844
And it works great for like social media,

360
00:26:46,844 --> 00:26:49,024
but the big aha moment,

361
00:26:49,424 --> 00:26:51,684
the aha moment that I'm having myself

362
00:26:51,684 --> 00:26:59,524
is that this is a permissionless way of communicating intent

363
00:26:59,524 --> 00:27:01,864
between applications, between people.

364
00:27:02,004 --> 00:27:03,164
It's more than just information.

365
00:27:03,404 --> 00:27:09,764
It's intent because it's actually signed JSON or signed data.

366
00:27:10,704 --> 00:27:14,064
And the other thing that you literally get for free from the protocol

367
00:27:14,064 --> 00:27:22,544
is you get the ability to encrypt to any other person out there

368
00:27:22,544 --> 00:27:27,044
so that no intervening party, whether it be a government or a digital platform,

369
00:27:27,244 --> 00:27:29,284
they can't screw with your data.

370
00:27:29,464 --> 00:27:30,304
They can't even see it.

371
00:27:31,604 --> 00:27:38,424
And I realized that this is a massively powerful model

372
00:27:38,424 --> 00:27:41,064
to actually build an entirely new infrastructure on.

373
00:27:41,064 --> 00:27:49,264
and that's what's exciting me like um i just view like with what i'm building with safebox and what

374
00:27:49,264 --> 00:27:54,924
i've done with the payments stuff that's just a starting point and uh social media like with

375
00:27:54,924 --> 00:28:01,264
nostr and what we're doing on nasa social media that's just a starting point i i'm just seeing

376
00:28:01,264 --> 00:28:07,224
an entirely new architecture that can be built uh building like a globally interoperable architecture

377
00:28:07,224 --> 00:28:08,844
that nobody can stop.

378
00:28:10,144 --> 00:28:14,244
And every day as I'm building stuff,

379
00:28:14,324 --> 00:28:15,724
I'm thinking about this and going,

380
00:28:16,664 --> 00:28:18,844
wow, I just feel like I'm a pioneer

381
00:28:18,844 --> 00:28:22,904
on an edge of civilization doing something new.

382
00:28:23,004 --> 00:28:25,464
I don't have to go back to any committee

383
00:28:25,464 --> 00:28:29,004
or anything like that to do what I do.

384
00:28:29,004 --> 00:28:35,524
I just build my log cabin in a new territory.

385
00:28:35,524 --> 00:28:39,724
Yeah, sure, the log cab might be shitty, but hey, that's the thing.

386
00:28:39,824 --> 00:28:42,644
When you're pioneering new stuff, you're experimenting with new things,

387
00:28:42,644 --> 00:28:44,964
and then you figure out how to work with the materials at hand,

388
00:28:45,264 --> 00:28:47,244
and you build better and better and better.

389
00:28:48,084 --> 00:28:51,544
And I'm just, I can't stop thinking about,

390
00:28:51,984 --> 00:28:54,964
I can't stop thinking about the potentials here.

391
00:28:55,284 --> 00:29:01,744
Like, honestly, it just feels like 1993 again,

392
00:29:01,804 --> 00:29:03,864
just before the web really took off.

393
00:29:03,864 --> 00:29:05,884
and that's how I feel.

394
00:29:06,624 --> 00:29:09,764
It's like dialing back the clock 30 years

395
00:29:09,764 --> 00:29:13,504
and an entirely new opportunity is arising.

396
00:29:14,324 --> 00:29:16,564
A few of us understand it.

397
00:29:16,644 --> 00:29:18,144
This community understands it.

398
00:29:19,324 --> 00:29:22,024
But given another few years,

399
00:29:22,184 --> 00:29:23,944
who knows,

400
00:29:24,344 --> 00:29:28,344
I think it's just going to be a tidal wave

401
00:29:28,344 --> 00:29:32,184
and digital infrastructure is going to be rebuilt

402
00:29:32,184 --> 00:29:34,424
based on what we've learned here.

403
00:29:35,984 --> 00:29:39,904
You know, one of the criticisms you hear from Bitcoiners,

404
00:29:40,004 --> 00:29:42,484
believe it or not, right, who've tried out NOSTA

405
00:29:42,484 --> 00:29:45,104
or they've heard about NOSTA, couldn't be bothered to try it,

406
00:29:45,624 --> 00:29:48,044
whatever it is, but there is a subset of Bitcoiners

407
00:29:48,044 --> 00:29:51,484
who fall into this camp who, I mean,

408
00:29:51,524 --> 00:29:56,904
the criticism really falls into two main parts,

409
00:29:57,044 --> 00:29:58,884
two main related parts, actually.

410
00:29:59,084 --> 00:30:01,924
So one is around relay centralization,

411
00:30:02,184 --> 00:30:06,224
And the other is monetary incentives for relays.

412
00:30:06,324 --> 00:30:12,264
And I find it funny when they make these arguments because, and I've joked about this, right?

413
00:30:12,484 --> 00:30:17,924
It's like NOSTA is the perfect example of something not working in theory but working in practice.

414
00:30:18,784 --> 00:30:25,264
But just coming back to those two criticisms, relay centralization, the dangers of that,

415
00:30:26,744 --> 00:30:31,364
and relatedly, the monetary incentives to run relays at scale, right?

416
00:30:31,364 --> 00:30:32,984
when we talk about millions of events.

417
00:30:33,504 --> 00:30:34,424
Yeah, sure.

418
00:30:35,104 --> 00:30:36,324
It's still early days.

419
00:30:36,464 --> 00:30:37,544
I know that's corny to say that.

420
00:30:37,704 --> 00:30:41,824
But one of the core properties of Nostr,

421
00:30:41,964 --> 00:30:43,584
or more specifically Nostr event,

422
00:30:43,904 --> 00:30:46,564
is that every event has its own identity.

423
00:30:46,984 --> 00:30:49,264
Namely, it's generated from,

424
00:30:49,364 --> 00:30:52,124
it's basically a SHA-256 hash, the event ID.

425
00:30:52,124 --> 00:30:55,544
It's generated from a set of properties

426
00:30:55,544 --> 00:30:57,104
and then the content.

427
00:30:57,724 --> 00:31:00,284
And so that every event is unique

428
00:31:00,284 --> 00:31:01,184
and then it gets signed.

429
00:31:01,364 --> 00:31:08,044
that's massive because then that event is free of any database.

430
00:31:09,284 --> 00:31:11,164
It can live anywhere.

431
00:31:11,604 --> 00:31:14,404
It can be on centralized relay X,

432
00:31:14,524 --> 00:31:16,824
but it can be on decentralized relay Y.

433
00:31:17,924 --> 00:31:21,504
I remember I had done some stuff on Twitter

434
00:31:21,504 --> 00:31:25,564
more than 10, 12 years ago

435
00:31:25,564 --> 00:31:29,584
where I developed a system that would do automated tweeting and that.

436
00:31:29,584 --> 00:31:32,004
and I just remember

437
00:31:32,004 --> 00:31:36,544
you know looking at I think what they call the status ID

438
00:31:36,544 --> 00:31:39,044
like every tweet had a unique number

439
00:31:39,044 --> 00:31:41,144
it was literally just a

440
00:31:41,144 --> 00:31:44,284
what's it called a monotonically increasing number

441
00:31:44,284 --> 00:31:45,704
it increases

442
00:31:45,704 --> 00:31:49,624
but that had to be managed by

443
00:31:49,624 --> 00:31:52,424
the Twitter service like it was unique

444
00:31:52,424 --> 00:31:55,304
but they enforced uniqueness and you had to be part of the service

445
00:31:55,304 --> 00:31:58,484
well you get uniqueness

446
00:31:58,484 --> 00:32:02,844
with any event that you generate just by default,

447
00:32:03,144 --> 00:32:05,944
and it's not managed by a centralized authority.

448
00:32:05,944 --> 00:32:12,564
So relay centralization, what does that actually mean?

449
00:32:14,044 --> 00:32:17,564
I can see where you can have relay,

450
00:32:18,184 --> 00:32:21,164
I'm just trying to think of the right word here,

451
00:32:22,064 --> 00:32:26,344
is affinity or agglomeration.

452
00:32:26,604 --> 00:32:28,144
I can't even think of the right word.

453
00:32:28,484 --> 00:32:36,324
where there's going to be relays that are designed to handle lots of data, lots of throughput.

454
00:32:37,324 --> 00:32:41,444
And just they happen to become the relay of choice by everyone.

455
00:32:41,584 --> 00:32:47,304
You're seeing that with Primal and with Damus and there's a few others there.

456
00:32:48,304 --> 00:32:49,204
That's fine.

457
00:32:49,204 --> 00:33:00,984
But the thing is that architecturally speaking, I'm pretty happy to rely on those relays for doing posts and kind ones and stuff like that.

458
00:33:02,464 --> 00:33:07,984
What I'm building, I actually have a relay that's sitting behind a firewall.

459
00:33:09,104 --> 00:33:12,304
And it's not accessible from the internet.

460
00:33:12,304 --> 00:33:16,464
And that's where I'm storing my data for my safe box, if you will.

461
00:33:16,464 --> 00:33:23,883
but it's pretty easy for me if I wanted to put it out on like Damus or Primal I could do that

462
00:33:23,883 --> 00:33:29,804
it's really like a it's just it's not a centralization issue it's availability issue

463
00:33:29,804 --> 00:33:36,924
and so what's not taken away from me is the optionality of how I want to deploy things like

464
00:33:36,924 --> 00:33:43,883
I don't you know with Twitter I have to use Twitter because it's Twitter remember in the

465
00:33:43,883 --> 00:33:48,924
early days of twitter there used to be a bunch of different clients and then they all disappeared

466
00:33:48,924 --> 00:33:57,164
and so you only have the twitter client that's that um with uh nostr since every event has its

467
00:33:57,164 --> 00:34:06,964
own id and it's signed by users external to any system you have uh like option optionality there

468
00:34:06,964 --> 00:34:15,264
and yeah you don't you don't have to ask permission to use anyone's relays well you do if they want

469
00:34:15,264 --> 00:34:20,224
permission if you need to authenticate or pay or whatever but you can you can spin up your own

470
00:34:20,224 --> 00:34:25,944
relays and the other thing too is that when you when you query data you can query from a set of

471
00:34:25,944 --> 00:34:32,444
relays that will pull all the data together and there's no issue with the data conflicting because

472
00:34:32,444 --> 00:34:42,304
all those events as I described earlier they have their own unique identity and so I know that I can

473
00:34:42,304 --> 00:34:47,444
pull from a pool of relays and get the data that I need and if one of them is falling down missing

474
00:34:47,444 --> 00:34:51,524
some events or deleting some events I don't really care because another relay is going to pick up the

475
00:34:51,524 --> 00:34:58,564
slack so yeah I'm not worried I'm not worried about relay centralization at all and in terms

476
00:34:58,564 --> 00:35:00,564
of the monetary incentives?

477
00:35:02,724 --> 00:35:26,075
Well here the thing I don think we actually figured out from a business business perspective or strategic perspective or institutional perspective how to manage the possibility or how to capitalize on the possibility that every single one of those events that have their own identity that we talked about earlier I can send money to

478
00:35:26,075 --> 00:35:30,696
I remember that revelation that I had

479
00:35:30,696 --> 00:35:33,115
and implementing it

480
00:35:33,115 --> 00:35:35,215
like I have a command line app for my

481
00:35:35,215 --> 00:35:37,155
safe box

482
00:35:37,155 --> 00:35:39,775
and in testing it I was using Coracle

483
00:35:39,775 --> 00:35:41,595
and I was just looking up event IDs

484
00:35:41,595 --> 00:35:42,795
random event IDs

485
00:35:42,795 --> 00:35:47,675
and then getting the note ID

486
00:35:47,675 --> 00:35:51,196
and then seeing if I could send a zap to it

487
00:35:51,196 --> 00:35:53,215
and I could do that

488
00:35:53,215 --> 00:35:56,995
and it's really simple.

489
00:35:57,356 --> 00:35:59,495
The logic is, okay, here's the node ID.

490
00:35:59,956 --> 00:36:04,155
Look it up on the relay or set of relays,

491
00:36:04,376 --> 00:36:05,995
centralized, decentralized as a matter.

492
00:36:06,775 --> 00:36:07,595
Get the node ID.

493
00:36:08,315 --> 00:36:10,255
Find the public key who signed the thing.

494
00:36:10,475 --> 00:36:11,696
Okay, you got the public key.

495
00:36:13,315 --> 00:36:14,456
Look up the kind zero.

496
00:36:15,095 --> 00:36:16,856
Go to whatever relays that you want.

497
00:36:17,575 --> 00:36:18,815
Go to the kind zero.

498
00:36:19,416 --> 00:36:21,196
If you can find the lightning address,

499
00:36:21,196 --> 00:36:23,696
you got a lightning address

500
00:36:23,696 --> 00:36:27,335
then now you have

501
00:36:27,335 --> 00:36:31,815
the means to send money to that event

502
00:36:31,815 --> 00:36:35,715
and then of course with the zap receipts

503
00:36:35,715 --> 00:36:38,696
then you can issue the zap receipt

504
00:36:38,696 --> 00:36:42,115
that basically says okay this is associated with this event

505
00:36:42,115 --> 00:36:44,856
that I've zapped and broadcast that

506
00:36:44,856 --> 00:36:45,916
and then

507
00:36:45,916 --> 00:36:50,115
you know it's pretty incredible

508
00:36:50,115 --> 00:36:58,495
like if you think about it you can you can send money to any address that exists out there

509
00:36:58,495 --> 00:37:07,356
and if the owner has claimed some sort of association to that address and uh has a um

510
00:37:07,356 --> 00:37:12,896
a payable payable address named lightning address there's some other ways of doing it as well

511
00:37:12,896 --> 00:37:21,035
but you can transfer value to any addressable address like i don't think we even know

512
00:37:21,035 --> 00:37:33,295
what the potentials of that are yet so um yeah it's like people are complaining that the road

513
00:37:33,295 --> 00:37:38,635
is still a dirt road and they want it to be paved it's like well folks we're in entirely

514
00:37:38,635 --> 00:37:43,795
new territory here. Just kind of go with the flow with the dirt road because there's going to be

515
00:37:43,795 --> 00:37:50,015
some pretty amazing stuff over the hill. Yeah. So if I were to summarize what you said, Tim,

516
00:37:50,936 --> 00:37:55,696
from relay centralization problem, well, anyone can run a relay. It's permissionless. So if it

517
00:37:55,696 --> 00:38:01,456
does become a problem, people can run a relay, their own relay. Anyone else can spin it up. And

518
00:38:01,456 --> 00:38:06,856
if it becomes a problem that they're not getting paid for it and users end up suffering, then they

519
00:38:06,856 --> 00:38:09,555
will pay for it because it's so easy to pay for it.

520
00:38:10,916 --> 00:38:13,075
I think that makes a complete sense.

521
00:38:13,675 --> 00:38:13,815
Yeah.

522
00:38:14,035 --> 00:38:18,795
Like the other analogy that I give in the early days of email, people say, what's a

523
00:38:18,795 --> 00:38:19,755
business model for email?

524
00:38:20,615 --> 00:38:22,255
Now it's just part of the infrastructure.

525
00:38:22,835 --> 00:38:25,416
Like it's a cost of doing business now.

526
00:38:25,416 --> 00:38:32,575
Like you don't, you pay a monthly maybe with your Google or whatever, Proton or whatever.

527
00:38:32,575 --> 00:38:36,755
and they have a service,

528
00:38:36,995 --> 00:38:39,995
but a lot of us don't even know who our email providers are.

529
00:38:40,555 --> 00:38:42,975
So I think that's what's going to happen with the relays

530
00:38:42,975 --> 00:38:45,696
and that's how I'm seeing it with what I'm doing with Safebox

531
00:38:45,696 --> 00:38:49,655
is at the end of the day,

532
00:38:49,735 --> 00:38:51,535
what drives business is a value proposition

533
00:38:51,535 --> 00:38:52,755
irrespective of the technology,

534
00:38:52,916 --> 00:38:55,235
a value proposition is something that the customers value

535
00:38:55,235 --> 00:39:01,655
and you'll need the technology infrastructure to support that.

536
00:39:02,575 --> 00:39:09,856
And so I think relays, what's going to happen is that you've got some super solid open source relays.

537
00:39:09,856 --> 00:39:17,595
Like I use the stir fry, stir fry, yep.

538
00:39:18,575 --> 00:39:20,896
And it works without a hitch.

539
00:39:21,535 --> 00:39:25,195
And then I think Semisol is developing another one that I might experiment with.

540
00:39:25,195 --> 00:39:31,856
but it's like you know when when i get to the deployment phase of what i'm doing trying to

541
00:39:31,856 --> 00:39:34,795
set up an operating model i'm going to be looking at all the different types of relays

542
00:39:34,795 --> 00:39:46,075
i don't really care if they interoperate or not because my my baseline is basically nip one and

543
00:39:46,075 --> 00:39:54,555
maybe nip nine for deletions and that and i don't have i just don't have to worry about that stuff

544
00:39:54,555 --> 00:40:04,976
it's all like hashed out and um all i care about is just take my stuff broadcast it store it

545
00:40:04,976 --> 00:40:13,916
delete it thank you very much that's all i'm looking for thank you i i don't need a database

546
00:40:13,916 --> 00:40:20,376
i don't need a i don't need a database provider that's protecting protecting my database with

547
00:40:20,376 --> 00:40:27,376
admin admin password or anything like that uh uh everything is like protected on its own by every

548
00:40:27,376 --> 00:40:36,735
user it's just like the upside is just incredible you know tim you'd you'd mentioned the killer

549
00:40:36,735 --> 00:40:42,815
feature of nostr for you is is the kinds uh i i tend to agree i think there's one other killer

550
00:40:42,815 --> 00:40:51,295
feature for Nostra that, in fact, in my mind, it's an even bigger deal than event kinds,

551
00:40:51,456 --> 00:40:58,856
which is this notion that we now all completely take for granted, but that user identity has

552
00:40:58,856 --> 00:41:01,416
moved from the application layer into the protocol layer.

553
00:41:01,515 --> 00:41:03,315
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

554
00:41:04,315 --> 00:41:07,175
It's so obvious, so fundamental.

555
00:41:07,495 --> 00:41:11,515
I don't even talk about that anymore, but you're bang on.

556
00:41:11,515 --> 00:41:24,856
The fundamental, another fundamental innovation is the NPUB-NSEC pair, public-private key pair.

557
00:41:26,335 --> 00:41:35,035
I have 100% cryptographic assurance that that NPUB is mathematically related to an NSEC.

558
00:41:35,035 --> 00:41:38,675
and if something is signed by that NSEC,

559
00:41:39,175 --> 00:41:43,876
I can verify and I know that whoever has control of that private key

560
00:41:43,876 --> 00:41:45,595
signed it.

561
00:41:46,456 --> 00:41:48,555
How that private key has been controlled

562
00:41:48,555 --> 00:41:54,095
or compromised or whatever,

563
00:41:54,815 --> 00:41:57,015
that's a management and trust issue.

564
00:41:57,015 --> 00:41:59,235
It's not a technical issue.

565
00:42:00,235 --> 00:42:04,075
And I put my finger on it a few months back

566
00:42:04,075 --> 00:42:06,495
maybe the better part of a year ago

567
00:42:06,495 --> 00:42:12,115
that the fundamental innovation there

568
00:42:12,115 --> 00:42:16,416
is, as I said, that algorithmic

569
00:42:16,416 --> 00:42:19,595
relationship between the public and private key.

570
00:42:20,376 --> 00:42:23,436
There's no equivocation about it not being

571
00:42:23,436 --> 00:42:27,876
related or not. The other thing too

572
00:42:27,876 --> 00:42:31,775
is that that public-private key contains no

573
00:42:31,775 --> 00:42:37,795
information in itself it just can sign things and this is where the certificate authorities you heard

574
00:42:37,795 --> 00:42:43,896
of pki certificate authorities and that kind of subtly get their power they say well if the

575
00:42:43,896 --> 00:42:48,735
community is going to trust your public key we're going to have to sign it and we're going to put

576
00:42:48,735 --> 00:42:53,575
some information about you that you're a good person and that we're reputable or whatever

577
00:42:53,575 --> 00:42:58,835
and then oh by the way you're going to have to pay us money for that um for that certificate

578
00:42:58,835 --> 00:43:10,535
And then all of a sudden, now you've got some sort of what I call moral authority kind of dictating rules on the trustworthiness of that public key.

579
00:43:11,095 --> 00:43:21,876
But what Noster has done is that they've completely separated the idea of the public key and how it's trusted.

580
00:43:22,876 --> 00:43:24,675
They're two separate problems now.

581
00:43:24,675 --> 00:43:31,115
and there's no kind of jamming in kind of this trust capture stuff

582
00:43:31,115 --> 00:43:34,815
and saying to people, well, you have to trust it because it came from us.

583
00:43:35,155 --> 00:43:38,295
It's like, no, I'll make the judgment call on that end pub.

584
00:43:39,035 --> 00:43:44,155
I'll see that it signs something as a kind zero event.

585
00:43:44,155 --> 00:43:49,295
I'll do the NIP05 and then maybe do resolve it to a domain name

586
00:43:49,295 --> 00:43:51,436
that I know and blah, blah, blah, blah.

587
00:43:51,436 --> 00:44:00,995
You know, it's an entirely new trust infrastructure that we can break free from the public key, traditional public key certificate authority structure.

588
00:44:01,916 --> 00:44:16,956
Also enables us to break away from, it'll probably a long time, but to break away from like the TLS domain name certificates and that's pretty much controlled by, you know, a group.

589
00:44:16,956 --> 00:44:26,376
Thankfully, we've got organizations like Let's Encrypt that enable you to get a certificate for your website.

590
00:44:27,755 --> 00:44:31,356
But eventually, we'll get away from that.

591
00:44:31,535 --> 00:44:41,315
The other thing I'll add, too, is that in addition to the NPUP being completely divorced from any information,

592
00:44:43,155 --> 00:44:45,715
it's, for all intents and purposes, unique.

593
00:44:45,715 --> 00:44:58,615
Like the entropy is such that, you know, it's, you know, an NPUB, you know, is, I don't know what the entropy is, but it's like, there's no chance you're going to generate a duplicate one.

594
00:45:00,755 --> 00:45:03,476
And so then all of a sudden you have a unique address space.

595
00:45:04,175 --> 00:45:04,376
Voila.

596
00:45:06,075 --> 00:45:07,535
You don't need to manage that anymore.

597
00:45:08,535 --> 00:45:10,436
So have NPUB can trust anyone.

598
00:45:11,115 --> 00:45:13,295
And I can make a trust decision about an NPUB.

599
00:45:13,295 --> 00:45:19,215
and that's for me to decide and it's for me to delegate outwards if i want to but not to be

600
00:45:19,215 --> 00:45:27,815
dictated on and that just kind of flips everything on its head as well and um i'm really excited about

601
00:45:27,815 --> 00:45:37,535
that so yeah i i agree with you like um the the end pub the the public key on its own being um

602
00:45:37,535 --> 00:45:43,815
uh being a fundamental innovation you know that that was the innovation of bitcoin right the

603
00:45:43,815 --> 00:45:50,755
identities exist outside of the system i just remember the this the the white paper the one

604
00:45:50,755 --> 00:45:58,115
diagram that stopped me in the tracks there was a i think later on in the white paper um uh they

605
00:45:58,115 --> 00:46:04,635
just they discuss um he has a really simple diagram i'm pulling out my version of the white

606
00:46:04,635 --> 00:46:08,856
paper, where it kind of flips the architecture

607
00:46:08,856 --> 00:46:12,835
around. I just remember, yeah, privacy, the section 10 of the white paper.

608
00:46:13,295 --> 00:46:16,956
I remember looking at that diagram, just saying, oh, that's freaking genius.

609
00:46:18,235 --> 00:46:20,856
And, you know, it talks about the traditional privacy

610
00:46:20,856 --> 00:46:24,876
model, the new privacy model. And we're just doing the same thing

611
00:46:24,876 --> 00:46:25,595
in Nostra now.

612
00:46:28,095 --> 00:46:32,175
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Certainly,

613
00:46:32,175 --> 00:46:34,315
it's changed the game, right?

614
00:46:34,396 --> 00:46:37,356
The separation of user identity,

615
00:46:37,535 --> 00:46:39,416
and just to put it in simpler terms,

616
00:46:39,635 --> 00:46:41,335
the separation of user identity

617
00:46:41,335 --> 00:46:42,755
from the application layer,

618
00:46:42,896 --> 00:46:45,195
which is where most of the data theft,

619
00:46:45,376 --> 00:46:47,535
the rug pulling, and everything else happens

620
00:46:47,535 --> 00:46:49,555
at the platform level.

621
00:46:50,476 --> 00:46:50,735
Great.

622
00:46:50,896 --> 00:46:52,396
So Tim, let's talk about,

623
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:59,467
Safebox, and maybe if you could help our audience understand it in simple terms, what is Safebox?

624
00:46:59,627 --> 00:47:01,207
What is your motivation for building it?

625
00:47:01,747 --> 00:47:03,667
When can folks start using it?

626
00:47:03,667 --> 00:47:08,007
yeah so taking all these new ideas

627
00:47:08,007 --> 00:47:11,207
of relays and pubs and events

628
00:47:11,207 --> 00:47:14,147
and

629
00:47:14,147 --> 00:47:19,607
thinking about building something that's not just

630
00:47:19,607 --> 00:47:23,167
better or slicker or more sexy or

631
00:47:23,167 --> 00:47:27,267
whatever try to build something

632
00:47:27,267 --> 00:47:30,867
absolutely fundamentally different yet

633
00:47:30,867 --> 00:47:38,507
simple, simple, simple. So, um, some of you might know, I was invited to be part of the

634
00:47:38,507 --> 00:47:45,687
sovereign engineering cohort, um, the group, uh, that's based out of, uh, Madeira. So I was there

635
00:47:45,687 --> 00:47:51,467
last summer for six weeks and then I've, I've gone back a couple of times. I'm probably going

636
00:47:51,467 --> 00:47:59,607
to go back again later in the fall for the fifth cohort. So, um, I, I had the benefit of like,

637
00:47:59,607 --> 00:48:05,027
really debating intensively with folks like Pablo and Gigi

638
00:48:05,027 --> 00:48:09,747
and a few of the others that wish to remain anon,

639
00:48:10,407 --> 00:48:14,087
just talking about the philosophical underpinnings

640
00:48:14,087 --> 00:48:17,727
of what we're trying to do.

641
00:48:18,727 --> 00:48:25,467
As I said, Safebox is actually my third iteration of my project.

642
00:48:25,907 --> 00:48:28,187
Originally, I called it Nemo Cache,

643
00:48:28,187 --> 00:48:34,327
which is a fun name for the underlying technology that I was building.

644
00:48:35,167 --> 00:48:40,227
Then I called it Open Balance, another fun branding name.

645
00:48:40,647 --> 00:48:43,627
And now I'm on the third iteration, Safebox.

646
00:48:45,027 --> 00:48:48,347
The first iteration really focused on what I talked earlier.

647
00:48:49,547 --> 00:48:51,367
Instead of building an account-based system,

648
00:48:51,967 --> 00:48:57,127
build a token-based management system to manage your balances and that.

649
00:48:57,127 --> 00:49:06,707
So, you know, I as the custodian, as I was building, really have no insight on like the nature of your funds.

650
00:49:06,967 --> 00:49:09,127
All I just see are just a bunch of blinded tokens.

651
00:49:10,347 --> 00:49:23,467
The next iteration, I started to integrate more and more of the Nostra capabilities, experimenting with, you know, direct messaging.

652
00:49:23,467 --> 00:49:31,227
um yeah just just just playing around with it and uh just understanding what i could do with

653
00:49:31,227 --> 00:49:40,747
nostr and now the third iteration uh i had a an epiphany like last summer one of the big problems

654
00:49:40,747 --> 00:49:47,247
that i had with my service it wasn't a problem but like i had a database in the back end and i

655
00:49:47,247 --> 00:49:52,627
didn't like that because i thought hmm if i get tapped on the shoulder by an authority you know

656
00:49:52,627 --> 00:49:58,427
I'll have to like give up all the information and like maybe they'll tell me to shut my database

657
00:49:58,427 --> 00:50:04,787
down or not, not that I'm doing anything bad, but it was just like, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm a single

658
00:50:04,787 --> 00:50:14,207
point of failure and I didn't really like that. And, um, it became apparent, um, when I better

659
00:50:14,207 --> 00:50:21,947
understood like, uh, the relays and what they could do and, uh, full credit to Pablo with what

660
00:50:21,947 --> 00:50:31,807
he did with cashew nuts, if you will, and NIP 60 and NIP 61, storing the data on the relays.

661
00:50:31,927 --> 00:50:38,287
That's when the penny dropped for me. I went, oh my goodness, I don't need a database for each user

662
00:50:38,287 --> 00:50:44,687
or database instance. I can just store stuff on relays, sign it, and encrypt it.

663
00:50:44,687 --> 00:50:50,707
and then I said, well, I don't want to use the user's private key.

664
00:50:51,087 --> 00:50:55,527
I'm going to create a component that generates its own private key

665
00:50:55,527 --> 00:51:00,867
and I'll give that to the user or to the client application.

666
00:51:01,507 --> 00:51:05,607
Then I'm just going to build a component

667
00:51:05,607 --> 00:51:09,847
that there's really three things that actually have to come together for it to work.

668
00:51:10,187 --> 00:51:12,307
The private key, someone's going to have the private key.

669
00:51:12,307 --> 00:51:18,867
the code's got to be running somewhere and then the data's got to be somewhere on a relay

670
00:51:18,867 --> 00:51:26,847
so it's only when those three things come together does the component come alive so to speak

671
00:51:26,847 --> 00:51:34,867
and then the more and more i looked into it i went holy crap this is an entirely new infrastructure

672
00:51:34,867 --> 00:51:41,047
and entirely new architecture because what i talked about earlier with the events having their

673
00:51:41,047 --> 00:51:47,807
own identities you know i get you know i get all this stuff for free from the protocol then you

674
00:51:47,807 --> 00:51:53,907
know i i can migrate um i you know i can i can send the data to another relay to live on another

675
00:51:53,907 --> 00:52:00,027
relay um the code can run from anywhere and the private key can be supplied from anywhere

676
00:52:00,027 --> 00:52:07,287
and holy crap this is really um really powerful so then you know i created my first

677
00:52:07,287 --> 00:52:16,167
phase of my iteration was creating a command line app literally kind of like the equivalent of ssh

678
00:52:16,167 --> 00:52:25,987
for like sending money and storing data so i so i got i got that working and basically

679
00:52:25,987 --> 00:52:32,967
implemented and tested the functionality that i wanted to build and then i started i think

680
00:52:32,967 --> 00:52:38,107
yeah I think it was about like October of last year I said well

681
00:52:38,107 --> 00:52:44,367
I want the same component to work in what's called an asynchronous context so I started

682
00:52:44,367 --> 00:52:54,827
to build a web app and that's basically the front face of Safebox now is the web app but the

683
00:52:54,827 --> 00:53:02,367
the component underneath is where the where the real real guts is so what's what's happening is

684
00:53:02,367 --> 00:53:10,087
that um i i'm building you know it just looks like a web-based wallet app it's like a boring

685
00:53:10,087 --> 00:53:16,347
lightning wallet makes payments you know it presents stuff and if you wanted to present

686
00:53:16,347 --> 00:53:22,247
fiat and u.s dollars and canadian dollars does that but in the back end it's a radically different

687
00:53:22,247 --> 00:53:31,087
architecture. All the data is stored in relays that I might control, which I'm doing for my

688
00:53:31,087 --> 00:53:38,087
prototype, but I can actually put it anywhere. So for example, on some of the testing I did,

689
00:53:38,387 --> 00:53:43,867
this is going back maybe three or four months ago, I like to test these concepts out where I actually

690
00:53:43,867 --> 00:53:51,547
fired up a safe box. I found a relay that I could use in Beijing of all places. I'm surprised I

691
00:53:51,547 --> 00:53:58,667
could get there but i could use it and then i i found a mint in i think in buenos aires or whatever

692
00:53:58,667 --> 00:54:07,767
and then i just ran the code from you know a random unix box or a random like ubuntu box

693
00:54:07,767 --> 00:54:18,707
and i ran payments through you know a anonymous ubuntu box that was running the code you know the

694
00:54:18,707 --> 00:54:21,367
The data was being run through a relay in Beijing,

695
00:54:21,807 --> 00:54:25,667
and the Mint was going on in Buenos Aires.

696
00:54:26,347 --> 00:54:29,307
You know, this is amazing.

697
00:54:29,567 --> 00:54:32,167
Like, what jurisdiction would be able to track this?

698
00:54:32,167 --> 00:54:35,107
They won't be able to track this at all.

699
00:54:35,347 --> 00:54:38,907
So, you know, then I just explored that concept further,

700
00:54:39,027 --> 00:54:42,907
and I said, okay, this is the core of what I'm calling SafeBox.

701
00:54:44,227 --> 00:54:46,847
I have all the payment stuff pretty much working.

702
00:54:46,847 --> 00:54:57,687
um like it's 99 done so payments is a starting point but then i started to explore saving like

703
00:54:57,687 --> 00:55:05,247
records like personal records personal notes and then the work i did with you avi with nos fabrica

704
00:55:05,247 --> 00:55:13,087
was um uh well i can actually do the same thing for storing health records like okay i got that

705
00:55:13,087 --> 00:55:20,227
working and then i built up you know maybe it's too grand to call it a protocol but i i i figured

706
00:55:20,227 --> 00:55:26,827
out a way to enable two safe boxes to communicate directly with one another well they do it via

707
00:55:26,827 --> 00:55:30,807
relays but everything is encrypted via relays really so i don't know what's going on i went

708
00:55:30,807 --> 00:55:38,567
oh uh now i can actually share between two safe boxes that are anywhere in the world and then the

709
00:55:38,567 --> 00:55:44,307
the protocol I developed it would negotiate would say okay well here are the relays that I want you

710
00:55:44,307 --> 00:55:50,027
to use and then the responder can say well I can't use those relays how about using these instead and

711
00:55:50,027 --> 00:55:56,547
it's like okay then I'll listen to here for the the controlling messages and that and so a lot of

712
00:55:56,547 --> 00:56:03,547
like gnarly engineering underneath the surface but at the end is that I could easily share data

713
00:56:03,547 --> 00:56:04,807
between two safe boxes.

714
00:56:05,287 --> 00:56:08,207
And then to make it simple for the healthcare context,

715
00:56:09,527 --> 00:56:12,987
you know, made it such that the parameters

716
00:56:12,987 --> 00:56:16,287
were rendered as a QR code that the wallet could read

717
00:56:16,287 --> 00:56:17,747
and then figure out what to do with it.

718
00:56:18,507 --> 00:56:20,267
And I demonstrated that.

719
00:56:20,347 --> 00:56:21,187
I got that working.

720
00:56:22,487 --> 00:56:26,347
And I also had to, I don't want to get too geeky here,

721
00:56:26,347 --> 00:56:30,447
but I had to, you know, adapt.

722
00:56:30,447 --> 00:56:38,027
I think it was NIP, there's NIP 44 for the encryption, but I think it's NIP 59 for the gift wrapping.

723
00:56:38,767 --> 00:56:40,487
So I had to adapt that for my purposes.

724
00:56:42,087 --> 00:56:54,947
And then, you know, basically got developed a way of making it easy for, you know, calling it inter-app communications now.

725
00:56:54,947 --> 00:56:58,067
And now it's like, oh, okay, this works.

726
00:56:58,067 --> 00:57:04,447
And then I generalized it to do credentials.

727
00:57:07,047 --> 00:57:14,347
A credential is nothing special like a driver's license or an ID card or whatever,

728
00:57:14,527 --> 00:57:16,087
just data that's signed.

729
00:57:16,587 --> 00:57:21,987
And then I just worked with Vitor in understanding a way of embedding,

730
00:57:23,847 --> 00:57:26,167
encoding, embedding data for prescriptions.

731
00:57:26,167 --> 00:57:28,167
and then I went, oh, okay, well, this is pretty straightforward.

732
00:57:28,307 --> 00:57:28,927
I can do that.

733
00:57:30,147 --> 00:57:31,587
And then I looked at it and I said,

734
00:57:31,667 --> 00:57:36,127
well, I can take what I did for credentials

735
00:57:36,127 --> 00:57:37,507
and verifying credentials.

736
00:57:37,507 --> 00:57:39,867
I can just like generalize that

737
00:57:39,867 --> 00:57:42,247
into like a gazillion different types of records.

738
00:57:42,787 --> 00:57:44,627
And so it could be like gift cards.

739
00:57:44,627 --> 00:57:46,907
It could be immunization records.

740
00:57:47,207 --> 00:57:47,967
It can be whatever.

741
00:57:49,507 --> 00:57:51,647
So now I feel I'm on the track

742
00:57:51,647 --> 00:58:05,260
of building a fully functional wallet So for fun like when we were traveling in Rajasthan i kept my field notes on my wallet traveling let say what we did every day what hotel we went to blah blah blah

743
00:58:05,260 --> 00:58:11,120
just just to prove that it actually worked it worked and then like yesterday i found a nice

744
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:17,260
pasta recipe that i need to prepare and i just saved it as a note on my wallet and use that while

745
00:58:17,260 --> 00:58:47,160
I was, um, uh, use, use that while I was, um, uh, cooking. So, um, it's still a ways away to be like a real consumer slick product, but I'm a hundred percent confident now that I can build not only a wallet that enables like private payments, but also enables the, enables the private storage of records.

746
00:58:47,260 --> 00:58:49,600
and private communication and personal records.

747
00:58:50,420 --> 00:58:57,120
And I'm 100% sure now that it can't be compromised in the middle.

748
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:02,780
And so what I'm doing now is just got all the components,

749
00:59:03,460 --> 00:59:04,500
kind of got figured out.

750
00:59:04,580 --> 00:59:08,300
So now I'm just kind of working on some of the security engineering stuff.

751
00:59:08,300 --> 00:59:12,380
Like I figured out a way to make what I'm calling a non-custodial wallet.

752
00:59:13,020 --> 00:59:14,820
So let's say you have a safe box.

753
00:59:14,820 --> 00:59:21,540
it's out there on the on on the web or on the relay and you just don't trust anybody at all

754
00:59:21,540 --> 00:59:25,460
the private key or anything like that but you'd like to have a lightning address

755
00:59:25,460 --> 00:59:29,880
to receive payments well you need some sort of online capability to do that

756
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:37,500
so um i figured out a way to do that where uh okay you want that i don't know your private

757
00:59:37,500 --> 00:59:42,100
key or anything like that just give me your public key uh the relay that you're living on

758
00:59:42,100 --> 00:59:47,960
thank you very much that's all i need i'll spin up a lightning address for you and when the when

759
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:54,600
the payment comes in a lightning payment comes in i'll just flip it to cashew tokens and then fire

760
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:59,180
them through that um protocol that i talked about earlier you're going to pick that up the next time

761
00:59:59,180 --> 01:00:04,700
you come alive you're just going to look for to see what's uh in your cashew inbox so to speak

762
01:00:04,700 --> 01:00:11,500
you're just going to swap those tokens into your wallet and boom, done.

763
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:21,280
And it's like I have no way as a provider to yank anything back.

764
01:00:21,740 --> 01:00:25,380
Yeah, I might decide I don't want to handle your Lightning address anymore,

765
01:00:25,500 --> 01:00:26,920
but you'll just say, oh, thank you very much.

766
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:27,1000
I'll just fire it up elsewhere.

767
01:00:27,1000 --> 01:00:40,240
So I kind of decoupled the service provider that provides those online computational capabilities from the safe box that can just live out in the network.

768
01:00:41,660 --> 01:00:45,540
And I don't know of anyone that's doing that kind of stuff.

769
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:53,120
It's still pretty rudimentary, but for me, the concepts are kind of radically new, a radically new way of doing things.

770
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:57,520
And so that's what I'm actively experimenting and doing that.

771
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,580
Well, lots to look forward to with Safebox there, Tim.

772
01:01:01,620 --> 01:01:04,800
And I feel like we could spend an hour just talking about Safebox

773
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:08,060
and the different things you can store in it.

774
01:01:08,140 --> 01:01:10,860
But I want to focus on one thing, which is credentials.

775
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:17,600
And, you know, this is an issue we run into in the digital world, right?

776
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:22,060
This goes beyond Nostra as well, which is with credentials,

777
01:01:23,260 --> 01:01:27,800
can they ever be truly digitally native without needing an Oracle,

778
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:33,200
without needing some kind of intermediary who exists in meat space to bless it, right?

779
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:34,200
Some kind of authority.

780
01:01:35,540 --> 01:01:42,980
And I think you're attempting to tackle it, self-issued credentials or what have you, right?

781
01:01:43,460 --> 01:01:49,500
So I'll pick a specific use case for why something like this would be important.

782
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:51,140
You mentioned NOS Fabrica, right?

783
01:01:51,140 --> 01:01:55,720
We're trying to build healthcare data interoperability built on NOSTA.

784
01:01:55,720 --> 01:02:02,740
if you in in maybe a few months down the line there is a health care marketplace on nostr where

785
01:02:02,740 --> 01:02:08,080
you have patients searching for care right nostr solves a discovery problem you find the provider

786
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:13,680
and you schedule an appointment you can pay them in lightning great but there's one catch there

787
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:19,800
how do you know that someone who's listed themselves is as a health care provider

788
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:21,1000
is actually a healthcare provider.

789
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:23,940
And credentials are one way.

790
01:02:24,660 --> 01:02:28,280
NOSTA has badges, but, I mean, anyone could make a badge, right?

791
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:29,800
So that's a problem.

792
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:30,440
Yeah.

793
01:02:30,540 --> 01:02:31,900
So how do you see that?

794
01:02:31,900 --> 01:02:33,960
Yeah, kind of the same approach,

795
01:02:34,340 --> 01:02:41,260
how you resolve like an event to pay a lightning address.

796
01:02:42,740 --> 01:02:48,180
So the idea is that the wallet itself is a first-class citizen,

797
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:49,180
is NOSTA.

798
01:02:49,180 --> 01:02:50,740
It has its own private key.

799
01:02:51,020 --> 01:02:51,980
It can sign events.

800
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:52,680
It can do everything.

801
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:54,140
It can encrypt and everything like that.

802
01:02:55,640 --> 01:03:01,120
I've also added an attribute to the wallet, which is the owner.

803
01:03:01,940 --> 01:03:04,220
So if you control the private key of that wallet,

804
01:03:04,540 --> 01:03:07,940
you can actually say that you're the owner of that wallet as well,

805
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:09,660
and that can be signed in an event.

806
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,400
So it's like I can say, okay, I know that Avi's got a wallet.

807
01:03:13,620 --> 01:03:15,800
He's using a wallet, and it has an ID.

808
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:16,380
That's great.

809
01:03:16,380 --> 01:03:27,040
but um that wallet i can see that avi's end pub is there and so then i can actually check a registry

810
01:03:27,040 --> 01:03:33,380
or whatever to see that um or an event i'm still thinking this through this event event that

811
01:03:33,380 --> 01:03:40,720
avi says um this is a wallet that i'm using today might not be the one that i'm using tomorrow so i

812
01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:46,100
I can just maybe have to define a kind that will say,

813
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:52,460
what's the legitimate wallet that Avi's using?

814
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:56,880
And then that wallet, ostensibly under the control of Avi,

815
01:03:58,100 --> 01:04:01,780
could be issuing credentials, prescriptions,

816
01:04:02,060 --> 01:04:04,1000
like prescriptions or a doctor's note or something like that,

817
01:04:04,1000 --> 01:04:06,920
like short-lived credentials.

818
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:10,100
And the wallet signs that.

819
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:16,320
And then so how that actually gets verified in a community,

820
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:22,920
and this is something I've been very careful to make sure that I don't like step into the problem of trust,

821
01:04:23,020 --> 01:04:24,340
which the community has to figure out.

822
01:04:24,460 --> 01:04:28,700
Like I'm just figuring out the mechanics of enabling them to make a trust decision.

823
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:36,960
So there may be like a pharmacy that I present, you know, I walk up,

824
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:44,700
I have my safe box and the pharmacy has their safe box and they say, well, show me the prescription.

825
01:04:45,140 --> 01:04:49,040
So I present the credential, prescription.

826
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:51,620
They get a copy of it.

827
01:04:51,700 --> 01:04:52,500
It gets transmitted.

828
01:04:53,960 --> 01:05:00,980
And then the pharmacy person or whatever looks at it and says, oh, okay.

829
01:05:01,220 --> 01:05:02,660
Yeah, it's all signed and everything.

830
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:03,340
It all checks out.

831
01:05:03,420 --> 01:05:03,960
It hasn't altered.

832
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:05,560
And, you know, here's all the data and that.

833
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:06,860
It's like, oh, okay.

834
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:14,620
it's signed by this wallet okay and let's see who the owner of that wallet is so it's signed that

835
01:05:14,620 --> 01:05:28,380
avi's the owner and then i can go to um i i can uh query an event to say uh uh did avi

836
01:05:28,380 --> 01:05:34,780
sign that this is the wallet under his control yep it's good there we go so i i know this that

837
01:05:34,780 --> 01:05:43,820
this credential or this prescription was actually issued by abby and then the next question might be

838
01:05:43,820 --> 01:05:50,380
well is he in good stead with the college of physicians or whatever and so you know the the

839
01:05:50,380 --> 01:05:55,380
the pharmacy might just have a list that they look up that they maintain just say okay this

840
01:05:55,380 --> 01:06:00,700
is abby's end pub it's good we trust them there we go or there can be a register of pharmacists

841
01:06:00,700 --> 01:06:10,520
or whatever so um all i'm doing as i said um at the outset the the the uh the beauty of like the

842
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:17,460
npub insect insect is that there's a hundred percent cryptographic assurance that those two

843
01:06:17,460 --> 01:06:24,360
things are associated to mathematical assurance and then all i'm doing is giving you a path

844
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:29,960
to know that you have 100% cryptographic assurance

845
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:31,320
that that wallet issued it,

846
01:06:31,740 --> 01:06:33,120
that it was under control by Avi,

847
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:39,460
and then someone signed that Avi is a good doctor

848
01:06:39,460 --> 01:06:41,680
or a legitimate doctor, and that's that.

849
01:06:42,260 --> 01:06:45,360
That's a, I wouldn't say,

850
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,420
it's a very domain-specific problem to solve.

851
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:50,960
What I'm trying to do is kind of

852
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,780
take the technology capture out of it.

853
01:06:54,360 --> 01:07:05,440
The issue that I've run into with the traditional credential world is that they accord special privileges to the people that issue stuff and the ones that verify.

854
01:07:06,020 --> 01:07:09,180
And then you have what are called the holders that don't see any rights at all.

855
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:15,080
The beauty I like about the NOSTA protocol, it blows away all those distinctions.

856
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:17,860
It doesn't matter whether you're an issuer, a holder, a verifier.

857
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:21,160
Everyone is completely equal.

858
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:27,800
and so as I said I just feel like we're standing on the edge of an entirely new frontier here

859
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:35,780
and we can get away from you know those medieval practices I call them medieval because

860
01:07:35,780 --> 01:07:41,460
certificates really arose in medieval times we just digitize them we can break free from those

861
01:07:41,460 --> 01:07:47,160
medieval practices that were we think are modern which they aren't and I think

862
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:51,120
all I'm doing

863
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:53,520
with my project

864
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:55,520
is that one NPUB

865
01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:57,240
can send something to another NPUB

866
01:07:57,240 --> 01:08:01,580
and the issue of whether you trust that NPUB

867
01:08:01,580 --> 01:08:03,100
or decision of trusting that NPUB

868
01:08:03,100 --> 01:08:05,940
that's out of scope for what I'm trying to do

869
01:08:05,940 --> 01:08:06,720
I'm trying to create

870
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,1000
just like the capability

871
01:08:09,1000 --> 01:08:13,880
just like we communicate between two IP addresses

872
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:16,460
it's the same thing with what I'm trying to do

873
01:08:16,460 --> 01:08:31,640
Mm-hmm. But if you were to extrapolate to people who would be using your NPUB, sorry, your app, right, NPUB sending things to other NPUBs, but they would need something else to ensure that the right thing is being sent to the right person.

874
01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:43,300
And I think what I heard you say is it's, you know, a cryptographic or web of trust-based attestations essentially solve this credential issue, right?

875
01:08:43,300 --> 01:08:47,1000
So you're not relying on authorities, you're relying on your peers,

876
01:08:47,1000 --> 01:08:50,400
essentially, filtered by a web of trust.

877
01:08:50,500 --> 01:08:54,500
Yeah, where you kind of link it to the real world, the traditional world.

878
01:08:54,500 --> 01:08:56,540
And I'm a big fan of NIP05.

879
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:11,513
So that like if you have a friendly identifier like I have tier about my gets it I getsafe you can resolve my end pub from that And I see what will happen

880
01:09:11,653 --> 01:09:14,693
It will just be the equivalent of an email address.

881
01:09:15,433 --> 01:09:17,033
You'll just say, here's my NIP5 address.

882
01:09:18,273 --> 01:09:20,133
I can communicate that to you.

883
01:09:20,253 --> 01:09:21,533
I can print it on a piece of paper.

884
01:09:21,533 --> 01:09:28,753
and that's the meet space, what I call the invocation transaction

885
01:09:28,753 --> 01:09:30,953
that has to occur outside of the digital world.

886
01:09:31,753 --> 01:09:34,313
And I'm just trying to be as flexible.

887
01:09:34,513 --> 01:09:35,553
It could be a QR code.

888
01:09:35,673 --> 01:09:39,013
It could be an NPUB scanned in.

889
01:09:39,193 --> 01:09:43,593
It could be like an email type NIP identifier

890
01:09:43,593 --> 01:09:46,273
that someone can actually just resolve the NPUB.

891
01:09:48,313 --> 01:09:50,473
That's a whole new area to explore.

892
01:09:50,473 --> 01:09:59,713
What I'm trying to do is just not constrain what would be like an entirely new infrastructure.

893
01:10:00,873 --> 01:10:07,473
I'm trying to build like a new infrastructure capability that doesn't constrain like organizational possibilities.

894
01:10:08,533 --> 01:10:09,373
That's what I'm trying to do.

895
01:10:11,733 --> 01:10:13,873
Yeah, no, that's great, Tim.

896
01:10:13,873 --> 01:10:20,613
So let's talk about your thoughts on the current landscape of Nostra apps.

897
01:10:20,733 --> 01:10:26,373
You're building all these, let's just say, things in the other stuff category, right?

898
01:10:27,133 --> 01:10:27,293
Yeah.

899
01:10:27,533 --> 01:10:29,133
Safebox, what have you, credentials.

900
01:10:29,453 --> 01:10:37,673
And Safebox is really, it's almost like a protocol in and of itself because it allows you to transact in these different ways.

901
01:10:37,673 --> 01:10:39,293
But set that aside for a second.

902
01:10:39,413 --> 01:10:43,753
And if you were to take a step back and look at the broader Nostra app landscape.

903
01:10:43,873 --> 01:10:48,173
What are your views, any thoughts, any criticisms of where things stand?

904
01:10:49,253 --> 01:10:50,573
Oh, it's so new.

905
01:10:50,933 --> 01:10:55,953
I think, I know that's a bit of a trite saying that,

906
01:10:55,953 --> 01:11:08,893
but we're still figuring out what it really means.

907
01:11:08,893 --> 01:11:15,053
And it's not that different than going back like 30, 35 years ago, the early days of the Internet.

908
01:11:15,253 --> 01:11:26,993
You had the webmasters and you had the, you know, the cypherpunks and that, the real fringe, if you will, exploring new ideas.

909
01:11:27,313 --> 01:11:34,013
And then, you know, finally that corporate America or, you know, the mainstream kind of figure things out.

910
01:11:34,013 --> 01:11:45,773
But I think where we're at, my view is, for example, Bitcoin and the payment stuff, mission accomplished there.

911
01:11:47,453 --> 01:11:57,153
It's not about, for me, Bitcoin and Lightning and eCash, it's a permissionless payment rail and enables anybody to send value.

912
01:11:58,033 --> 01:12:01,853
And you can get in all the philosophical, strategic reserve kind of stuff or whatever.

913
01:12:01,853 --> 01:12:05,653
But at the end of the day, it's kind of like what the internet was like 30 years ago.

914
01:12:05,813 --> 01:12:07,953
You had the scrappy protocol called TCP IP.

915
01:12:08,353 --> 01:12:09,773
It just took over everything.

916
01:12:10,173 --> 01:12:10,713
Just boom.

917
01:12:11,633 --> 01:12:16,953
And if you ever have a chance, it's the 30th anniversary of that Microsoft memo,

918
01:12:17,353 --> 01:12:23,833
an internal memo that someone wrote to say the web is the new platform

919
01:12:23,833 --> 01:12:25,373
and it's a big threat to Windows.

920
01:12:25,793 --> 01:12:27,013
Came out 30 years today.

921
01:12:27,853 --> 01:12:29,153
That's where we're at right now.

922
01:12:30,033 --> 01:12:31,233
That's where we're at right now.

923
01:12:31,853 --> 01:12:34,773
A classic Microsoft right there.

924
01:12:35,193 --> 01:12:35,833
Yeah, yeah.

925
01:12:35,953 --> 01:12:37,533
But they understood the strategic.

926
01:12:38,073 --> 01:12:39,813
I was kind of in the thick of it back then.

927
01:12:40,213 --> 01:12:45,053
And they did a big pivot, late 95, early 96.

928
01:12:45,833 --> 01:12:46,633
Big pivot.

929
01:12:47,613 --> 01:12:50,693
And they saw the threat or they saw the opportunity.

930
01:12:51,833 --> 01:13:00,213
It's only a matter of time that some organization or whatever is going to write a strategic memo saying, we've got to do this.

931
01:13:00,213 --> 01:13:09,353
like my my gut feeling it's going to be um maybe maybe a maybe a country that says oh we have to

932
01:13:09,353 --> 01:13:15,173
have our own sovereign payment system and this might do the job for us and we need to have our

933
01:13:15,173 --> 01:13:21,733
own sovereign communication system and uh this might do the job for us i think it might be a

934
01:13:21,733 --> 01:13:27,613
couple years out before that quote-unquote strategic memo but i'm kind of forgetting your

935
01:13:27,613 --> 01:13:27,873
your,

936
01:13:27,873 --> 01:13:28,533
your question.

937
01:13:28,833 --> 01:13:29,693
So the land,

938
01:13:29,793 --> 01:13:30,333
the landscape.

939
01:13:30,633 --> 01:13:30,993
Okay.

940
01:13:31,373 --> 01:13:34,973
So lots of great social media stuff going on,

941
01:13:35,073 --> 01:13:36,493
social media replacement stuff,

942
01:13:36,853 --> 01:13:42,053
a lot of experimentation on zaps and value for value.

943
01:13:43,533 --> 01:13:44,533
You know,

944
01:13:45,053 --> 01:13:47,913
the usual kind of cypher punk,

945
01:13:48,633 --> 01:13:49,093
you know,

946
01:13:49,173 --> 01:13:50,253
censorship resistant,

947
01:13:51,033 --> 01:13:51,353
blah,

948
01:13:51,393 --> 01:13:51,513
blah,

949
01:13:51,573 --> 01:13:52,933
blah stuff going on.

950
01:13:53,073 --> 01:13:53,293
Yeah.

951
01:13:54,413 --> 01:13:55,413
That's great.

952
01:13:55,413 --> 01:13:58,013
but

953
01:13:58,013 --> 01:14:02,233
I think we just need to cultivate it

954
01:14:02,233 --> 01:14:03,673
I think what's happened

955
01:14:03,673 --> 01:14:06,053
geopolitically things have changed massively

956
01:14:06,053 --> 01:14:07,313
over the past

957
01:14:07,313 --> 01:14:09,553
year

958
01:14:09,553 --> 01:14:12,213
we're just seeing

959
01:14:12,213 --> 01:14:13,093
institutions

960
01:14:13,093 --> 01:14:15,293
kind of at a loss

961
01:14:15,293 --> 01:14:20,193
governments are finding out they're not being

962
01:14:20,193 --> 01:14:20,993
effective anymore

963
01:14:20,993 --> 01:14:24,613
you have what I call the new apex predator

964
01:14:24,613 --> 01:14:34,573
which is ai and that's actually one of my motivations is that i want to build build

965
01:14:34,573 --> 01:14:40,533
something that i can protect the interaction between you and me without it being like predated

966
01:14:40,533 --> 01:14:50,873
by um by like you know um being skewed or you know i don't want someone something a predator

967
01:14:50,873 --> 01:14:57,393
in the middle that's either taking my funds or taking my data or changing my worldview without

968
01:14:57,393 --> 01:15:05,173
me knowing it. And so I think we're in a new world. It's just not about anti-state or anti-government.

969
01:15:05,373 --> 01:15:10,073
It's about there's these new predators out there in the digital realm and the traditional

970
01:15:10,073 --> 01:15:18,433
international rules-based order is just not going to protect people against that. So we need to build

971
01:15:18,433 --> 01:15:27,493
capabilities that gives every individual, you and me, the same strength of shield as

972
01:15:27,493 --> 01:15:28,413
what a government would have.

973
01:15:29,433 --> 01:15:35,573
And then once we figure that out, then we have to figure out how to build new institutions

974
01:15:35,573 --> 01:15:36,213
around that.

975
01:15:37,613 --> 01:15:46,413
So I just see NOSTER, you know, you might say it's not the most elegant protocol out there.

976
01:15:46,413 --> 01:15:53,893
there may be some better ones or whatever, but it's simple and it has few constraints.

977
01:15:54,013 --> 01:15:55,313
So therefore, it's generalizable.

978
01:15:56,453 --> 01:16:02,653
So I'm seeing NOSTER not as a social media replacement.

979
01:16:02,873 --> 01:16:07,053
I'm seeing it as an inter-application protocol for communicating intent.

980
01:16:08,553 --> 01:16:12,013
And that's way bigger than social media.

981
01:16:12,013 --> 01:16:13,793
oh yeah it is

982
01:16:13,793 --> 01:16:16,733
it is the substrate for the application layer

983
01:16:16,733 --> 01:16:17,293
of the internet

984
01:16:17,293 --> 01:16:20,413
it's the so called fabric that everybody's like

985
01:16:20,413 --> 01:16:22,593
blah blah blahing about and then the other

986
01:16:22,593 --> 01:16:23,553
thing too is that

987
01:16:23,553 --> 01:16:26,733
you hear stuff about agentic identities

988
01:16:26,733 --> 01:16:28,873
and agent identities

989
01:16:28,873 --> 01:16:30,473
and agents on behalf

990
01:16:30,473 --> 01:16:32,573
it's like well just give them

991
01:16:32,573 --> 01:16:33,313
a fucking input

992
01:16:33,313 --> 01:16:34,993
sorry

993
01:16:34,993 --> 01:16:37,173
that's just how I see it

994
01:16:37,173 --> 01:16:38,513
I see all this

995
01:16:38,513 --> 01:16:41,933
pearl clutching and waxing poetic

996
01:16:41,933 --> 01:16:43,473
and blue-skying and just saying,

997
01:16:43,813 --> 01:16:46,973
I think we can solve that problem with Nostra

998
01:16:46,973 --> 01:16:47,813
pretty straightforward.

999
01:16:50,633 --> 01:16:55,053
Also, the word agentic has lost all meaning at this point

1000
01:16:55,053 --> 01:16:57,333
because it means something completely different

1001
01:16:57,333 --> 01:16:58,293
to different people.

1002
01:16:58,473 --> 01:16:59,793
But your point is taken, right?

1003
01:16:59,793 --> 01:17:02,933
If you take the literal meaning of agentic

1004
01:17:02,933 --> 01:17:05,653
in the AI context, yes, just give them endpubs.

1005
01:17:06,033 --> 01:17:06,913
That makes complete sense.

1006
01:17:07,253 --> 01:17:11,093
So Tim, you'd mentioned a little, a short while earlier

1007
01:17:11,093 --> 01:17:17,713
about a country building this payment network, right?

1008
01:17:18,213 --> 01:17:20,673
And sadly, from my perspective,

1009
01:17:20,953 --> 01:17:23,653
that will not be the country of my birth, India,

1010
01:17:23,873 --> 01:17:27,213
because as you saw on your recent trip there,

1011
01:17:27,453 --> 01:17:30,313
there are QR codes everywhere

1012
01:17:30,313 --> 01:17:33,953
and they have the centralized universal payment interface.

1013
01:17:34,133 --> 01:17:36,693
So do you want to talk about your experience with,

1014
01:17:36,953 --> 01:17:40,293
specifically when it comes to the payment rails in India?

1015
01:17:40,293 --> 01:17:43,773
Yeah, and if you think there is a chance that Bitcoin could infiltrate that

1016
01:17:43,773 --> 01:17:48,013
and provide a better user experience than what exists.

1017
01:17:48,673 --> 01:17:53,113
Yeah, like I've been to travel quite a bit.

1018
01:17:53,113 --> 01:17:57,573
I've been in Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, India,

1019
01:17:58,733 --> 01:18:02,313
been in a few countries in South America, been in North Africa and that.

1020
01:18:04,373 --> 01:18:06,173
People don't give a crap about the tech.

1021
01:18:06,633 --> 01:18:07,693
They just want it to work.

1022
01:18:07,693 --> 01:18:15,253
and the the other the other interesting thing i've learned is that people you know just they

1023
01:18:15,253 --> 01:18:20,893
they want to transact in their native unit unit of account so like i found the same thing when i

1024
01:18:20,893 --> 01:18:26,133
when i was when we're in vietnam after about three four days you start thinking in vietnamese dong

1025
01:18:26,133 --> 01:18:33,453
um in in in india took a bit but after a while you're you're you're thinking in rupees and that

1026
01:18:33,453 --> 01:18:39,173
So it's like, okay, you know, you're not going to get them to talk about sats and bits and Bitcoin or anything like that.

1027
01:18:39,393 --> 01:18:44,673
So that was one of the things that I did was in my system, I'll just present it in its local currency.

1028
01:18:44,973 --> 01:18:53,453
So I think, you know, I think the two things are basically presenting the local currency.

1029
01:18:53,453 --> 01:19:00,833
And I think QR codes, they just work because you can actually see them.

1030
01:19:00,833 --> 01:19:08,373
uh and nfc is still like uh you know magic in the back you don't know really what's happening

1031
01:19:08,373 --> 01:19:16,013
um people are quite quite comfortable with that like as i said you know you go to a temple where

1032
01:19:16,013 --> 01:19:20,873
you band where they band cameras and there's like qr codes on the sides like what are you supposed

1033
01:19:20,873 --> 01:19:28,413
to do so you know they're you know everybody like everybody has a mobile device everybody has a

1034
01:19:28,413 --> 01:19:36,693
camera everybody has 5g so all the preconditions are there what's going to happen is that a country

1035
01:19:36,693 --> 01:19:45,813
it may be india maybe pakistan or maybe oman or whatever they're going to say oh we have like

1036
01:19:45,813 --> 01:19:50,513
a hundred million people that have phones but they don't have bank accounts

1037
01:19:50,513 --> 01:19:58,393
and uh we we we need to give them or they they don't have a method to pay easily

1038
01:19:58,393 --> 01:20:20,445
and uh someone will come along and say well here this could scale them up in a second and it will just take off you know um I think that that kind of what I aiming for is that uh I already had some inquiries I know uh uh some folks are watching

1039
01:20:20,445 --> 01:20:32,365
me with what I'm doing. Um, and I think now, you know, it may be like the idea, my vision is to

1040
01:20:32,365 --> 01:20:37,305
create a system like I want to do what I'm calling a community pilot like early 2026

1041
01:20:37,305 --> 01:20:44,825
where I set something up in an underserved area and maybe they operate the service or we operate

1042
01:20:44,825 --> 01:20:52,545
it from afar or whatever but it'll just work the the the the the other thing too is just like email

1043
01:20:52,545 --> 01:20:58,965
you don't think about email servers you just think about email I think with what we're doing with

1044
01:20:58,965 --> 01:21:04,365
relays working tirelessly in the background, not knowing what your data is, it can actually

1045
01:21:04,365 --> 01:21:07,385
provide a unified whole from all these thousands of instances.

1046
01:21:07,385 --> 01:21:13,725
So the key thing is, is that I've made sure that while I have my safe box, since it's

1047
01:21:13,725 --> 01:21:18,865
up and running, if there's another one up and running, they just know how to communicate

1048
01:21:18,865 --> 01:21:25,925
to each other seamlessly, but they can have completely independent infrastructures underneath,

1049
01:21:26,325 --> 01:21:27,285
just like email.

1050
01:21:27,285 --> 01:21:30,485
and so I think what's going to happen

1051
01:21:30,485 --> 01:21:34,465
and this is kind of what my focus is

1052
01:21:34,465 --> 01:21:38,765
is just to create a really simple payment wallet tool

1053
01:21:38,765 --> 01:21:43,285
that can be done in a browser

1054
01:21:43,285 --> 01:21:45,285
or on a crappy tablet or whatever

1055
01:21:45,285 --> 01:21:47,965
maybe there will be like an Android version

1056
01:21:47,965 --> 01:21:49,685
or an iOS version

1057
01:21:49,685 --> 01:21:51,265
but they'll be as dumb as heck

1058
01:21:51,265 --> 01:21:54,505
basic as heck

1059
01:21:54,505 --> 01:21:56,485
and then it will just take off

1060
01:21:56,485 --> 01:22:04,605
and then um uh then everybody will just say oh do you have an email address it'll be do you have

1061
01:22:04,605 --> 01:22:13,085
a lightning address um can i can i where can i send funds to oh uh yeah i'm i'm i'm canadian

1062
01:22:13,085 --> 01:22:20,205
dollars here your u.s dollars here i'm comfortable sending you five canadian dollars yeah it shows up

1063
01:22:20,205 --> 01:22:23,405
as $3.80 US dollars.

1064
01:22:23,625 --> 01:22:26,485
Well, that's what we negotiated the deal with.

1065
01:22:26,945 --> 01:22:30,385
The fiat conversion factor doesn't really matter anymore.

1066
01:22:31,465 --> 01:22:34,185
So I think that's the vision that I have

1067
01:22:34,185 --> 01:22:37,005
is that there's this interoperable network

1068
01:22:37,005 --> 01:22:38,685
where we can just convey value

1069
01:22:38,685 --> 01:22:41,585
and privately communicate with one another

1070
01:22:41,585 --> 01:22:44,125
and it will just take off like a rocket.

1071
01:22:45,125 --> 01:22:47,065
And oh, by the way, you can do social media on it as well.

1072
01:22:48,605 --> 01:22:49,085
Right.

1073
01:22:50,205 --> 01:22:57,645
The other thing you mentioned in your previous answer, Tim, was a predator, what you refer to as a predator, AI.

1074
01:22:58,885 --> 01:23:03,385
But maybe this part of AI, well, maybe for some it is a predator.

1075
01:23:03,965 --> 01:23:09,205
But you have posted some strong views on Vibe coding on Noster.

1076
01:23:09,485 --> 01:23:10,485
Do you want to talk about that?

1077
01:23:11,205 --> 01:23:12,085
Yeah, it's great.

1078
01:23:12,085 --> 01:23:15,085
So I use ChatGPT.

1079
01:23:15,085 --> 01:23:21,325
.gpt, I have a paid version, exceptionally valuable when I have a very specific problem to solve.

1080
01:23:21,325 --> 01:23:28,545
Instead of spending a day to figure out something, I'll just say, just give me some code.

1081
01:23:29,005 --> 01:23:30,505
And it's like, oh, okay, that's really interesting.

1082
01:23:31,445 --> 01:23:33,365
I integrate that into my app.

1083
01:23:33,585 --> 01:23:35,905
I wouldn't be where I am without AI.

1084
01:23:39,305 --> 01:23:43,085
And I kind of see what's going on.

1085
01:23:43,085 --> 01:23:49,925
um but i'm a first principles person i gotta know what's going on going on underneath the hood

1086
01:23:49,925 --> 01:23:59,465
and so you know you you can create an app and yeah it does something great and looks great

1087
01:23:59,465 --> 01:24:07,005
but you don't know what's going to break like um you know i i'm an engineer like i i took the

1088
01:24:07,005 --> 01:24:12,405
you know very seriously what we call the ritual the calling of the uh engineer the obligation that

1089
01:24:12,405 --> 01:24:17,685
we don't pass faulty or bad workmanship and that so if i don't know what's going on underneath the

1090
01:24:17,685 --> 01:24:25,325
hood uh i i won't um i won't i won't vote for it i think it's great for proof of concepts and

1091
01:24:25,325 --> 01:24:30,385
possibilities and exploring stuff and that's exactly what i've done but it's it's good for that

1092
01:24:30,385 --> 01:24:39,545
and so um you know folks that say that you know vibe coding is gonna gonna replace like the

1093
01:24:39,545 --> 01:24:46,265
engineers and the true creativity, it's like, nah, it's not going to. It's not going to. And if you

1094
01:24:46,265 --> 01:24:55,045
think it is, it's not. Where I really feel concerned for is I'm relatively advanced in my

1095
01:24:55,045 --> 01:25:01,005
career. I've had the advantage of like growth by hard knocks, trying to figure things out and,

1096
01:25:01,005 --> 01:25:06,285
you know, being stuck on things for a week at a time and trying to figure it out. You know,

1097
01:25:06,285 --> 01:25:15,405
the internet kind of solved that to some degree like but a ai you know is like um if you rely on

1098
01:25:15,405 --> 01:25:20,145
too much it's like riding an e-bike in the tour de france and then thinking you're you're you're

1099
01:25:20,145 --> 01:25:27,405
you should you should get the glory at the end it's like no no like uh um you still have to do

1100
01:25:27,405 --> 01:25:33,765
the hard work um my my own experience with what i'm working on is that i got to do some hard

1101
01:25:33,765 --> 01:25:38,785
engineering some hard thinking especially how to coordinate everything in an asynchronous context

1102
01:25:38,785 --> 01:25:45,305
it takes a lot of thinking and that and ai can like uh provide some hints or whatever but

1103
01:25:45,305 --> 01:25:53,545
i i just got to do the hard stuff so it's it's great but um and i think a lot of the senior

1104
01:25:53,545 --> 01:26:00,085
people that are playing around with it saying it's a great thing they're they're standing on the on

1105
01:26:00,085 --> 01:26:05,385
the shoulders of what they've accomplished. I've already seen, like, I have a son that's an

1106
01:26:05,385 --> 01:26:12,345
engineer as well, hiring co-op students, and they're kind of shocked at how they get these

1107
01:26:12,345 --> 01:26:20,805
kids in that look good on paper. They did the Zoom interviews and that, but they can't code

1108
01:26:20,805 --> 01:26:29,025
without, they're really weak. So we just have to be really, really careful about lauding these

1109
01:26:29,025 --> 01:26:30,445
tools being the great

1110
01:26:30,445 --> 01:26:31,525
solution.

1111
01:26:32,685 --> 01:26:34,905
Hey, Tim, you never know, the next generation of

1112
01:26:34,905 --> 01:26:37,025
AI coding agents will be created

1113
01:26:37,025 --> 01:26:38,885
solely to clean up

1114
01:26:38,885 --> 01:26:41,145
the spaghetti of the previous generation

1115
01:26:41,145 --> 01:26:42,105
of Vibe coders.

1116
01:26:42,325 --> 01:26:44,125
So it might all just work out.

1117
01:26:44,785 --> 01:26:46,985
Yeah, I guess the biggest lesson I've learned is that

1118
01:26:46,985 --> 01:26:48,725
I have three boys.

1119
01:26:48,945 --> 01:26:49,585
They're all engineers.

1120
01:26:51,305 --> 01:26:52,945
And the biggest thing I've learned

1121
01:26:52,945 --> 01:26:54,385
from them is that

1122
01:26:54,385 --> 01:26:56,705
they made me realize that

1123
01:26:56,705 --> 01:26:58,725
my own limitations

1124
01:26:58,725 --> 01:27:01,405
I limit myself and I see what they do

1125
01:27:01,405 --> 01:27:04,645
and I realize that I need to work on new assumptions

1126
01:27:04,645 --> 01:27:07,665
and so we have lots of discussions about that

1127
01:27:07,665 --> 01:27:11,065
so I think there's a benefit for older people like me

1128
01:27:11,065 --> 01:27:15,665
and for younger people to combine these things

1129
01:27:15,665 --> 01:27:17,925
No, for sure

1130
01:27:17,925 --> 01:27:22,505
So Tim, what else are you working on other than Safebox?

1131
01:27:24,345 --> 01:27:25,645
Oh, this is my main

1132
01:27:25,645 --> 01:27:27,505
I have a Fiat job kind of thing

1133
01:27:27,505 --> 01:27:34,905
don't really feel like talking about that um i i'm quite an avid cyclist road cyclist um

1134
01:27:34,905 --> 01:27:43,785
um i i have we have a pug and pug just search on that hashtag and pug you'll see pictures of her

1135
01:27:43,785 --> 01:27:54,265
um but this is going to be when i when i kind of wind down my my my fiat uh career which will be

1136
01:27:54,265 --> 01:27:58,365
sooner than later, I'll be putting 100% of my professional effort

1137
01:27:58,365 --> 01:28:02,485
into the SafeBall project. It's more than a project, it's a calling.

1138
01:28:05,145 --> 01:28:06,445
I just see

1139
01:28:06,445 --> 01:28:08,245
a real revolution before us.

1140
01:28:09,525 --> 01:28:14,345
Not to get into the historical parallels and stuff like that, but I

1141
01:28:14,345 --> 01:28:17,805
really think we can actually change the world for the better with what we're doing.

1142
01:28:18,605 --> 01:28:21,145
And I just want to be part of that. I saw the

1143
01:28:21,145 --> 01:28:23,325
revolution of the web

1144
01:28:23,325 --> 01:28:26,325
30 years ago

1145
01:28:26,325 --> 01:28:27,785
you know

1146
01:28:27,785 --> 01:28:30,125
and I just

1147
01:28:30,125 --> 01:28:31,585
feel in my bones that there's something

1148
01:28:31,585 --> 01:28:33,265
there's something here

1149
01:28:33,265 --> 01:28:36,145
and I want to be a part of it

1150
01:28:36,145 --> 01:28:38,505
Amen to that

1151
01:28:38,505 --> 01:28:38,985
Tim

1152
01:28:38,985 --> 01:28:42,045
Anything you want to plug

1153
01:28:42,045 --> 01:28:43,865
where can people find your work

1154
01:28:43,865 --> 01:28:45,605
how can they get their hands on Safebox

1155
01:28:45,605 --> 01:28:48,205
Yeah so follow me on

1156
01:28:48,205 --> 01:28:48,585
Noster

1157
01:28:48,585 --> 01:28:50,545
I think if you just

1158
01:28:50,545 --> 01:28:51,325
my handle is

1159
01:28:51,325 --> 01:28:51,945
tierabauma

1160
01:28:51,945 --> 01:28:54,425
the

1161
01:28:54,425 --> 01:28:56,565
the

1162
01:28:56,565 --> 01:28:57,825
URL is

1163
01:28:57,825 --> 01:28:58,665
get safe box

1164
01:28:58,665 --> 01:28:59,245
dot app

1165
01:28:59,245 --> 01:29:00,625
I'm still

1166
01:29:00,625 --> 01:29:01,585
it's pretty alpha

1167
01:29:01,585 --> 01:29:02,945
if you really

1168
01:29:02,945 --> 01:29:03,665
want to use it

1169
01:29:03,665 --> 01:29:04,365
just

1170
01:29:04,365 --> 01:29:05,245
just send me

1171
01:29:05,245 --> 01:29:05,605
a

1172
01:29:05,605 --> 01:29:06,845
a DM

1173
01:29:06,845 --> 01:29:08,385
or if

1174
01:29:08,385 --> 01:29:09,265
if you know that

1175
01:29:09,265 --> 01:29:10,645
if someone has it already

1176
01:29:10,645 --> 01:29:12,225
there's a community

1177
01:29:12,225 --> 01:29:13,285
button where you just

1178
01:29:13,285 --> 01:29:14,165
scan the QR code

1179
01:29:14,165 --> 01:29:14,885
and you get a wallet

1180
01:29:14,885 --> 01:29:15,385
immediately

1181
01:29:15,385 --> 01:29:16,565
so I'm just being

1182
01:29:16,565 --> 01:29:16,965
very

1183
01:29:16,965 --> 01:29:17,685
very

1184
01:29:17,685 --> 01:29:21,765
just judicious on who's using it.

1185
01:29:21,845 --> 01:29:24,345
I'm not quite ready to roll it out

1186
01:29:24,345 --> 01:29:27,905
on anybody that's not willing to lose some funds.

1187
01:29:30,405 --> 01:29:31,825
Yeah, that's about it.

1188
01:29:32,185 --> 01:29:34,985
Like, I really believe,

1189
01:29:35,985 --> 01:29:37,945
get on Noster, follow people.

1190
01:29:39,045 --> 01:29:43,345
I try to, kind of, as I learn stuff or have thoughts,

1191
01:29:43,745 --> 01:29:45,865
like, I spend a lot of time reading in the mornings

1192
01:29:45,865 --> 01:29:49,685
and then I collect thoughts and post them on Nostra.

1193
01:29:49,765 --> 01:29:52,025
I used to do that Twitter like years and years ago,

1194
01:29:52,725 --> 01:29:54,885
but Nostra is my main vehicle.

1195
01:29:55,465 --> 01:29:59,205
And so if you want to have an exchange or see what I'm up to, just go there.

1196
01:29:59,385 --> 01:30:02,925
And I think I link in my profile, I link to the NPUB Pro site

1197
01:30:02,925 --> 01:30:04,525
so you can just see stuff that's going on.

1198
01:30:05,885 --> 01:30:09,845
Yeah, I would certainly urge folks to follow Tim on Nostra

1199
01:30:09,845 --> 01:30:12,465
and read his musings and his wisdom.

1200
01:30:12,625 --> 01:30:15,485
I certainly benefit from doing so.

1201
01:30:15,865 --> 01:30:23,965
Tim, genuinely appreciate you taking the time and sharing that said wisdom with me and our audience.

1202
01:30:24,745 --> 01:30:28,965
To everyone listening, thank you.

1203
01:30:29,865 --> 01:30:34,845
If you weren't listening on Fountain App, well, it's too late now to change, but I do hope you will.

1204
01:30:35,565 --> 01:30:38,185
The next time, support the Value for Value revolution.

1205
01:30:38,185 --> 01:30:41,145
QW had the day off

1206
01:30:41,145 --> 01:30:43,165
to participate

1207
01:30:43,165 --> 01:30:44,965
in a boating accident

1208
01:30:44,965 --> 01:30:46,765
a long awaited one

1209
01:30:46,765 --> 01:30:48,985
he will be back next week

1210
01:30:48,985 --> 01:30:51,205
we will be back next week

1211
01:30:51,205 --> 01:30:53,565
so thank you to our live audience

1212
01:30:53,565 --> 01:30:54,465
on zap.stream

1213
01:30:54,465 --> 01:30:57,805
thank you to everyone listening on Fountain

1214
01:30:57,805 --> 01:30:59,705
please subscribe

1215
01:30:59,705 --> 01:31:00,785
if you can

1216
01:31:00,785 --> 01:31:02,025
if you want to support the show

1217
01:31:02,025 --> 01:31:04,705
you will get early access to this episode

1218
01:31:04,705 --> 01:31:07,605
and potentially other bonus episodes

1219
01:31:07,605 --> 01:31:09,325
that we release.

1220
01:31:09,885 --> 01:31:10,825
Thank you, Tim.

1221
01:31:11,265 --> 01:31:11,725
Thank you.