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Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses

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on the intersection of Nostra and Bitcoin protocols.

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Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current

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thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,

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doers, and plebs.

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All right, we are live.

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Welcome, gentle pioneers, to the lightning-laced airwaves. Today is Friday the 3rd of October, and it is 5.05pm on the east coast of the United States at the time of recording.

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This is Pleb Chain Radio episode 131. We have a fun show ahead of you today.

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Franzap, creator of zap.store

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and actually much, much more

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is here to talk about all of that.

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And a reminder, folks,

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if you are listening to this show

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on Apple or Spotify,

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first of all, thank you for listening.

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But I would urge you to hit pause

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and switch over to the Fountain Podcasting app

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where you can earn some sats

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and support the value for value revolution

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while you listen.

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And while you're there,

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we would appreciate it

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If you hit the subscribe button, that will give you access to bonus episodes and also help us keep our mics warm and this podcast ad free.

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This show, Knock on Wood QW, is streamed live on zap.stream and any other Noster client that supports streaming such as Amethyst, Noster, Fountain and indeed Primal.

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And before we get to Culture Corner QW, the Finding Home Prague episode drops Tuesday on IndieHub.

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So take a look when it's out. There will be some teaser videos before then.

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And QW, you've been paying attention to Bitcoin and Nostra culture over the last week.

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What have you witnessed?

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um two things obvi uh i noticed you started the show with welcome gentle pioneers are you uh

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you jumping on the bugle bandwagon i'm jumping on a problem with plebs man i am jumping on my own

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bandwagon qw they they're they're going heavy on the pleb slop uh they're they're it's almost like

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they're trying to cancel the word. So I'm going to push back a little bit to all my plebs out there.

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I enjoy your slop. It's part of the reason why I love the community. So, you know, if you're one

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of those people that would define, would be defined as plebs slop by the bugle, I'm with you, man.

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So don't listen to them. We are plebs and we are still pioneers as well. So you can be both.

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So that's something I noticed.

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I disagree, QW.

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Uh-oh.

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There we go.

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Well, I think—

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It's okay to disagree.

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Yeah, of course it is.

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It's okay.

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Of course.

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I think the word pleb was a cry of rebellion maybe two or three years ago against toxic influencer culture.

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unfortunately i think that term has lost that meaning in recent months and it's become a toxic

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self-affirmation i am is a very powerful affirmation for most people and by calling

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themselves plebs they are i believe dimming their own light i i just don't i guess i don't care

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enough. I guess it's just, it's just, it's kind of like rules without rulers. We're all just the

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same. You know, it's just like, we're just, we're just everyday people. And at the end of the day,

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you know, we all vote in the network just the same. So it's not like there's people that were

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there before have a different vote than those that came, you know, later. Maybe you have more

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knowledge of Bitcoin. Maybe you are a thought leader. But at the same time, if you run a bid

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axe, one chip, one vote. We're all just the same people. I don't know. I can definitely see there's

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a point to it. But for me, that's not what defined pleb to me. And that's just how it is.

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If I were ever to be anything more than a pleb or consider myself more than it, then I would,

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And I don't know, I feel weird inside.

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It's just kind of something I've always harbored.

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Yeah, but let it be said, though.

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So you're going to say it right now, Avi is no longer a club.

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I have renounced that identity, QW, yes.

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Pioneer Chain Radio.

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Welcome.

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No, but Pioneers, I mean, I 100% agree with that, too.

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You know, it's, I mean, I remember first two years, I mean, two years ago, I was talking about the new frontier here in Noster.

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I think it definitely applies in Noster that we are pioneers.

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We are, we're riding our little wagons from app to app and setting up our little, it's a terrible user experience.

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I mean, there's typhoid and everything else you get with the troubles of being a pioneer come with a lot of enduring, I suppose.

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So I certainly relate with Pioneer as well.

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And Oregon Trail, if you ever play that game.

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On that happy note, QW.

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Yeah.

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So and then this is my politics.

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I'm noticing a lot of people putting this is my politics because I think it's mainly just a cry to everyone that would be have disagreeing politics.

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I mean, basically, you'll see someone with a chick in a bikini with a Bitcoin logo.

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This is my politics.

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Or you see a steak on a plate in the middle of, let's say, a prairie.

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This is my politics.

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I think it's something, a way of people expressing themselves beyond what actual politics is when you get in there.

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If you look at all the different social medias out there, it's just lockstep of red versus blue.

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Just a lot of never-ending emotional arguments.

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I saw this is my politics kind of trending on Nostra.

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I think that's cool.

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I think it's a way to step back from the everyday news feed of what is politics.

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Secondly, the block party is going on tomorrow, Alliance.

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We've got about 450 now people, Avi, in our group.

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So we just keep doubling.

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We're going for 1,000 next, I'm sure.

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Nostra Valley 2.0, October 18th.

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So that's in 15 days.

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Wow, time flies, Avi.

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State College PA, are you going to Nostra 2.0, Nostra Valley 2.0, Avi?

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There is a 0.01% chance I might do a last-minute FOMO.

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It all depends on my son's varsity soccer playoffs.

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If there is a game on that day, which there likely will be, or that weekend,

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then I cannot go.

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but in the off chance there isn't, then I will, I reserve the right to FOMO.

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Yeah. Okay. Well, that's going on. And Noster, I heard you were going to be at Nosterville 3.0.

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It appears so, yes. We'll be there. That is, in fact, a week after, a few days after Noster Valley.

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Was that appearance announced before you even knew you were going?

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Yes, that is correct. I was told I was going to be there. And then I checked with the authorities. And I was informed that it was indeed true. So I will be there.

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Awesome. All right. Well, more and more about that. And then, obviously, anybody looking to see Finding Home, we're going to put that the show notes. Anything else you wanted to talk about that, Avi? Obviously, you've been gone for three weeks from the show.

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yeah yeah well as some of you might have noticed not all but maybe a handful might have noticed i

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was gone for three weeks two of those were because i was traveling filming the next episode

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of finding home uh the last week was not i was not actually filming finding home

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it was my son's varsity soccer game so i had to be there it was an away game

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and i could not make it uh for the show but uh my sermon today kw is parts unknown

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There are places on the map that exist more in your imagination than in reality.

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So for me, Asuncion, the capital of Paraguay, was one of those places.

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Paraguay, a name you hear, but a place you don't really know.

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I went there to film a show inspired by a man who made a living visiting parts unknown.

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And in a way, that's exactly what I found.

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just not the parts I was expecting. The first thing that hits you isn't the heat, it's the warmth.

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A genuine open-hearted welcome that finds its purest expression in the asado. This is a slow

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cooked ritual of fire and meat. It's not just a meal, it's a communion. It's the first sign that

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you stumbled into a place that understands the importance of a strong human network.

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And that network is building something special. So I was there for the Accelerating Bitcoin

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conference. And that was a roaring fire of signal, not noise, with conversations flowing

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effortlessly between English, Spanish, and indeed even Portuguese for a handful of the panels.

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But what happens when the conference ends and the visitors go home?

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You find a local scene that's not just surviving, it's thriving.

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That their Bitcoin meetup in Paraguay has exploded from a handful of people 18 months ago to well over 200.

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You can see BTC map light up week after week, another node in a growing web of sovereign commerce.

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They are filling the map.

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This pocket of the world, this vibrant ecosystem of expats and locals, of Bitcoiners and Nostritches and Nostra builders,

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has been quietly assembling a parallel future, unknown to most of us in the West.

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It's a place where the regulatory friction is low and the human signal is high.

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a place where people aren't just talking about building they're actually doing it I went there

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expecting to find a story I left feeling like I'd seen a glimpse of the future so yeah if you get

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the chance go see it for yourself and with that QW I want to bring on our guest a man I met for the first time while I was in Ascension Franz App welcome to Pleb Chain Radio

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Thank you guys for having me. Pleasure to be here.

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I've been a long-time listener of Pleb Chain Radio.

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And let's go.

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Are you a pleb?

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Well, now that Avi has been announced, he's an aristocrat.

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I'm thinking he's doing the same, right?

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He is a Noster Evangelist.

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Is that right, Avi?

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Evangelist, yes.

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Evangelist, there you go.

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Well, we are, are we pleased with a new nobility?

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We leveled up.

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It's just all one big role-playing game, you know.

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So nice to meet you.

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I've been familiar with your work, Fran.

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and super excited for this episode.

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And yeah, so what were your thoughts on Paraguay as a Bitcoin hub?

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Yeah, I was going to say I was actually very impressed

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with the amount of people that showed up to that meetup.

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I know they grew really fast.

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And honestly, I need to compare it to,

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I've been to meetups in other places in much bigger countries

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that don't even get half of the people.

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is that the energy that some expats are bringing is the welcoming locals i don't know but it's it's

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just great to say what was wild to me fran as an english speaker is that there were a couple of

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panels in spanish and i know i know as a spanish speaker for you that's kind of obvious but but to

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me it's like oh there is a whole nostril world that exists outside of the anglosphere now obviously

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you're familiar with the Spanish Bitcoin landscape,

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the German Bitcoin landscape.

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Those are thriving ecosystems that the Anglosphere knows about

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but really doesn't really know about.

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But the NOSTA was such a pleasant surprise.

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Did you find that too, the Spanish NOSTA community there?

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Yeah, I thought that the presentations given about NOSTA

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were introductory.

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I don't know how many people were actually aware of it,

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but these days it's getting much more known.

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And here, I live in Argentina, we have, you know, for a long time Bitcoiners, but like Nasser was not, you know, even in it's like, let's say 2023 or so, people were not really talking about Nasser, but slowly, but surely.

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Now, pretty much every time we meet, you know, Nasser is appearing and even more in conferences.

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Actually, now there will be a big conference here in Buenos Aires in about a month.

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and Noster already has its presence.

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Last year there was a Noster booth.

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It was sponsored by some good people

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and that kind of worked,

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but now it seems we're getting a bigger space

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and I'm happy to contribute in any way.

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I'm giving talks myself, but yeah, sure.

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The public in the micro-blogging part of Noster,

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which is the main one anyway

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of Spanish speaking people

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is small

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but we're there

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and

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I just started

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a stream, I'll share more details soon

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but also putting out

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a lot of

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information about Nostra

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and Beacon as well

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but for the local public

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Well actually that's a good point

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Fran, if I'm remembering

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correctly from one of our conversations

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in Asuncion,

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weren't you considering starting a podcast?

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I have started and abandoned

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multiple podcasts.

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But I would say that I need to...

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The 10 episodes, Avi?

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You've got to get through the first 10 episodes.

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Nine, apparently, is the threshold.

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Exactly.

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So I will just shut my mouth

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and speak when I reach the 11th.

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You know, we talked about this, Avi, when Japan was happening.

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It was the Zapathon, but Japanese.

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And then Thailand, they had a conference and there was a NOSTER presence there.

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But there are these just parallel NOSTER experiences that are going on around the world.

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And as there should be, it's the Internet.

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It's a NOSTER protocol.

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It's something that's,

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everyone's going to have a different experience on Noster.

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But I just always think that's fascinating.

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And I'm sure when you sat there

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and you're watching a Noster panel in Spanish,

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there was kind of a moment of reflection.

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What were you feeling, Javi?

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Yeah, paths are known, QW.

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I was like, wow, this is,

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I had no idea this exists.

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And it makes me so incredibly happy that it does.

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That was my reflection.

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I mean, Bitcoin's no different, right?

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Yeah.

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I mean, Bitcoin has, you know, Bitcoin's been around.

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And I think initially when I, you know, maybe four or five years ago, when I was new to Bitcoin maximalism, let's just say, not the broader ecosystem.

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And I found out about the German community through the Einens Wanzig meetups.

228
00:17:17,592 --> 00:17:19,932
There's, you know, there's obviously a strong Dutch presence.

229
00:17:19,932 --> 00:17:25,432
there's a Spanish presence with Lunatic Coin and his podcast,

230
00:17:25,592 --> 00:17:28,632
and then, you know, not just him, several others,

231
00:17:28,732 --> 00:17:30,212
and then across the world, right?

232
00:17:30,972 --> 00:17:32,892
That was a pleasant surprise to me

233
00:17:32,892 --> 00:17:36,892
because I think the issue with English speakers

234
00:17:36,892 --> 00:17:40,952
is we are so Anglo-centric in our worldview.

235
00:17:41,272 --> 00:17:44,132
We think the world revolves around the English language,

236
00:17:44,692 --> 00:17:48,752
and every now and then you see these parts are known, essentially,

237
00:17:48,752 --> 00:17:52,812
And you're like, oh, wow, there is a whole world outside of the little one that we inhabit.

238
00:17:54,272 --> 00:17:58,852
Yeah, I think that's so important to stress and so important to you.

239
00:17:58,852 --> 00:18:07,472
Because, I mean, it's just, yeah, the United States is a big country and there's a lot of world politics going on here.

240
00:18:07,952 --> 00:18:12,212
But it's like there's so much more to experience, all those parts unknown.

241
00:18:12,552 --> 00:18:15,412
So I'm happy to hear you say that, Avi.

242
00:18:15,412 --> 00:18:26,132
Yeah. And Fran, does that bother you that when you meet English speakers and they act surprised that, hey, wait, there's Bitcoin and Nostra stuff in other languages?

243
00:18:26,132 --> 00:18:29,972
I don't get that impression

244
00:18:29,972 --> 00:18:30,392
but

245
00:18:30,392 --> 00:18:33,912
judging by, as we were saying

246
00:18:33,912 --> 00:18:35,592
the amount of content that is in English

247
00:18:35,592 --> 00:18:38,292
maybe a little bit

248
00:18:38,292 --> 00:18:39,852
what's really cool

249
00:18:39,852 --> 00:18:42,132
here is that as you were mentioning

250
00:18:42,132 --> 00:18:43,152
these

251
00:18:43,152 --> 00:18:45,352
groups of

252
00:18:45,352 --> 00:18:47,572
associations like Anenswanzig

253
00:18:47,572 --> 00:18:50,132
that are German speaking communities

254
00:18:50,132 --> 00:18:50,632
basically

255
00:18:50,632 --> 00:18:53,712
now recently

256
00:18:53,712 --> 00:18:55,272
there's 21

257
00:18:55,272 --> 00:18:57,792
which is 21 Spanish

258
00:18:57,792 --> 00:19:00,032
and it's also this aggregation of communities

259
00:19:00,032 --> 00:19:01,312
all across Latin America

260
00:19:01,312 --> 00:19:04,372
and kind of spearheaded by the Bitcoin community

261
00:19:04,372 --> 00:19:06,372
here which are the guys from La Gritta

262
00:19:06,372 --> 00:19:07,772
it's a

263
00:19:07,772 --> 00:19:10,212
Bitcoin maxi amazing space

264
00:19:10,212 --> 00:19:11,112
here in Buenos Aires

265
00:19:11,112 --> 00:19:13,532
if anyone comes this way

266
00:19:13,532 --> 00:19:14,952
absolutely recommend it

267
00:19:14,952 --> 00:19:17,752
and they're doing great work to

268
00:19:17,752 --> 00:19:19,732
spread the word and they are

269
00:19:19,732 --> 00:19:21,672
even just configuring

270
00:19:21,672 --> 00:19:23,912
sending nodes to people

271
00:19:23,912 --> 00:19:26,612
so each community can run their own node.

272
00:19:27,172 --> 00:19:28,892
Even up to Cuba, I would say.

273
00:19:29,172 --> 00:19:31,132
It's pretty massive.

274
00:19:32,632 --> 00:19:34,292
So you mentioned LaCrypta.

275
00:19:35,152 --> 00:19:38,412
And I think in the conference,

276
00:19:38,512 --> 00:19:39,472
whenever you were speaking,

277
00:19:39,712 --> 00:19:42,572
you were introduced as Franz Zapp LaCrypta,

278
00:19:42,752 --> 00:19:44,752
presumably the founder of LaCrypta.

279
00:19:44,892 --> 00:19:47,252
So for folks who are unfamiliar with it,

280
00:19:47,312 --> 00:19:48,072
first of all, is that true?

281
00:19:48,112 --> 00:19:49,332
Are you the founder of LaCrypta?

282
00:19:49,752 --> 00:19:51,212
But more importantly, what is LaCrypta?

283
00:19:51,212 --> 00:19:51,812
Not at all.

284
00:19:51,812 --> 00:19:58,072
there was a confusion there in the organization and i was yeah i'm part of it i'm friends with them

285
00:19:58,072 --> 00:20:07,192
but you know just a typo there um however um yeah i don't know if i can represent them properly

286
00:20:07,192 --> 00:20:10,872
um but yeah i should have said subster

287
00:20:10,872 --> 00:20:18,152
so it is a so what what is it it's a you said it's a large co-working space

288
00:20:18,152 --> 00:20:20,372
in Argentina?

289
00:20:22,212 --> 00:20:23,272
Yeah, it's

290
00:20:23,272 --> 00:20:26,252
it sometimes functions as a

291
00:20:26,252 --> 00:20:27,052
co-working space

292
00:20:27,052 --> 00:20:29,872
but it's really like a

293
00:20:29,872 --> 00:20:32,172
community house, a club, I don't know how you

294
00:20:32,172 --> 00:20:34,272
call it, but there's like tons of

295
00:20:34,272 --> 00:20:35,632
meetups and parties

296
00:20:35,632 --> 00:20:38,072
and just people going there and configuring

297
00:20:38,072 --> 00:20:39,912
nodes and stuff, so

298
00:20:39,912 --> 00:20:42,232
a very welcoming community and also they have

299
00:20:42,232 --> 00:20:44,052
I'm not really

300
00:20:44,052 --> 00:20:46,032
present on there, but they have

301
00:20:46,032 --> 00:20:55,492
like these calls and like an online community through discord that again just spawns to the

302
00:20:55,492 --> 00:21:01,452
whole spanish-speaking community around the world so like way more people participating

303
00:21:01,452 --> 00:21:08,272
and it's kind of funny that they they kept the name la crypto because it just reminds reminds

304
00:21:08,272 --> 00:21:16,652
one of crypto, right? But no, definitely, definitely well aligned with Bitcoin and Nostra.

305
00:21:18,232 --> 00:21:24,152
I'm familiar with LaCrypto through Nostra, just I would see it from time to time. But

306
00:21:24,152 --> 00:21:35,112
beyond that, is it Negro? Yeah. So he joined the alliance. So our Bitcoin mining,

307
00:21:35,112 --> 00:21:38,532
a little solo miners uniting type of thing.

308
00:21:38,812 --> 00:21:44,552
And then Upindo or Wrigley, LaCrypto was one of the charities

309
00:21:44,552 --> 00:21:48,052
that was put in line.

310
00:21:48,872 --> 00:21:55,212
But I noticed when LaCrypto, there's a lot of participation there.

311
00:21:55,572 --> 00:21:56,412
Let me just say that.

312
00:21:56,612 --> 00:22:01,192
So like all of a sudden there was like 20, 30 people that joined our group

313
00:22:01,192 --> 00:22:03,132
and they were all LaCrypto.

314
00:22:03,132 --> 00:22:07,912
So it's like there's definitely momentum on whatever you're building down there.

315
00:22:08,492 --> 00:22:12,972
Or I say down there, but it's in your world.

316
00:22:13,732 --> 00:22:16,852
So let's turn the map around, whatever.

317
00:22:17,232 --> 00:22:26,772
But yeah, I got to say, I may not speak Spanish, but whatever's going on there, there's a lot of momentum.

318
00:22:27,032 --> 00:22:30,092
And outside looking in, I can appreciate that.

319
00:22:30,092 --> 00:22:34,852
Well, there's a reason why we call ourselves the army of La Cribta, right?

320
00:22:35,212 --> 00:22:37,372
I believe it. I believe it.

321
00:22:37,552 --> 00:22:42,092
That certainly appears that there's a lockstep going there.

322
00:22:46,092 --> 00:22:52,092
So, Fran, you are of Zap.store or Zapstore fame.

323
00:22:52,092 --> 00:22:55,632
QW and I are iPhone users

324
00:22:55,632 --> 00:22:57,132
humble iPhone users

325
00:22:57,132 --> 00:22:59,232
who don't actually understand

326
00:22:59,232 --> 00:23:01,692
what Zap.store is

327
00:23:01,692 --> 00:23:04,272
actually I should go back and say

328
00:23:04,272 --> 00:23:06,152
QW and I are humble iPhone prisoners

329
00:23:06,152 --> 00:23:08,612
we don't know what sideloading is

330
00:23:08,612 --> 00:23:09,972
we don't know what these

331
00:23:09,972 --> 00:23:13,312
tools that are being built on Android are

332
00:23:13,312 --> 00:23:15,212
so for folks like us

333
00:23:15,212 --> 00:23:16,492
who are in the dark

334
00:23:16,492 --> 00:23:18,212
what is Zap.store

335
00:23:18,212 --> 00:23:19,972
and what functionality

336
00:23:19,972 --> 00:23:34,604
in Android are you leveraging to build out ZapStore that does not exist on an iPhone Well first off it called ZapStore Maybe there some confusion because people

337
00:23:34,604 --> 00:23:44,564
visit the Zap.Store. They would type that domain and get to a shitcoin thing now because I lost

338
00:23:44,564 --> 00:23:50,224
that domain like over a year ago and for some reason just persisted because Nasser would love

339
00:23:50,224 --> 00:23:51,384
calling zap.something.

340
00:23:53,044 --> 00:23:54,804
But, I mean, it was a good domain,

341
00:23:54,924 --> 00:23:58,384
but it was just way too expensive to renew.

342
00:23:59,004 --> 00:24:01,984
And also the brand should be Zapstore.

343
00:24:02,204 --> 00:24:03,404
So just a clarification there.

344
00:24:03,844 --> 00:24:07,424
If anyone wants to look it up or know more,

345
00:24:07,624 --> 00:24:08,184
it's Zapstore.

346
00:24:08,304 --> 00:24:10,124
Actually, the domain is zapstore.dev.

347
00:24:11,084 --> 00:24:13,224
And in terms of what it does,

348
00:24:13,324 --> 00:24:15,664
how to explain this to iOS users,

349
00:24:15,664 --> 00:24:18,204
well, at least you recognize yourself as a prisoner.

350
00:24:18,204 --> 00:24:20,384
as a first step.

351
00:24:22,264 --> 00:24:23,304
You were one.

352
00:24:23,464 --> 00:24:24,124
You told me.

353
00:24:25,484 --> 00:24:26,004
Hell yeah.

354
00:24:26,564 --> 00:24:27,004
Absolutely.

355
00:24:28,524 --> 00:24:30,384
I saw the light and it could escape.

356
00:24:31,884 --> 00:24:32,144
But

357
00:24:32,144 --> 00:24:34,604
it seems that

358
00:24:34,604 --> 00:24:36,524
Android for now

359
00:24:36,524 --> 00:24:38,924
is much more open.

360
00:24:40,244 --> 00:24:41,264
It was born

361
00:24:41,264 --> 00:24:41,804
as

362
00:24:41,804 --> 00:24:44,424
I think probably about a year ago

363
00:24:44,424 --> 00:24:46,804
after the first iPhone.

364
00:24:48,204 --> 00:24:51,904
what was that year, around 2007 or 2008.

365
00:24:52,784 --> 00:24:55,224
So shortly after, when Android was launched

366
00:24:55,224 --> 00:24:57,264
and the Apple App Store appeared,

367
00:24:57,484 --> 00:24:59,044
also the Android Market appeared,

368
00:24:59,344 --> 00:25:02,364
which turned to be the Play Store, as it is called now.

369
00:25:03,304 --> 00:25:07,584
But essentially, Android was always,

370
00:25:08,084 --> 00:25:13,504
as opposed to iOS, an open system,

371
00:25:14,364 --> 00:25:15,784
an open source operating system,

372
00:25:15,784 --> 00:25:22,244
which is very beneficial because mainly Google wanted other OEMs to adopt it.

373
00:25:22,904 --> 00:25:24,964
And so that was a pretty successful strategy.

374
00:25:25,364 --> 00:25:28,964
They got Amazon and Samsung and other Chinese.

375
00:25:29,164 --> 00:25:32,624
Basically, there's a lot of different Androids around the world

376
00:25:32,624 --> 00:25:35,524
and based on this premise of the open source project.

377
00:25:38,264 --> 00:25:41,224
And so it was always pretty open.

378
00:25:41,224 --> 00:25:45,024
And even though it had like an official store,

379
00:25:45,784 --> 00:25:49,104
you could always do this thing called side loading,

380
00:25:49,604 --> 00:25:53,304
which is simply, I think maybe a pejorative term,

381
00:25:53,484 --> 00:25:55,864
or I don't know if I like the framing

382
00:25:55,864 --> 00:26:00,184
because it just kind of gives me the vibe of something,

383
00:26:01,224 --> 00:26:03,024
you know, that it's kind of sneaking in,

384
00:26:03,024 --> 00:26:05,864
or I don't know how you guys think about like side loading.

385
00:26:06,184 --> 00:26:11,204
But in any case, it's simply installing an app,

386
00:26:11,764 --> 00:26:12,804
as we used to do.

387
00:26:12,804 --> 00:26:16,884
At least I remember when I installed apps on my computer and it was fine.

388
00:26:17,824 --> 00:26:22,924
It was basically up to you to decide the source of your software.

389
00:26:24,044 --> 00:26:25,764
Who knows? Maybe you had it on a CD-ROM.

390
00:26:25,904 --> 00:26:27,444
Maybe you pirated it. Maybe you bought it.

391
00:26:27,464 --> 00:26:30,964
Maybe you downloaded it from a shareware site.

392
00:26:31,484 --> 00:26:33,744
I mean, maybe you downloaded it from an app store, whatever.

393
00:26:33,984 --> 00:26:40,164
But the point is that you had control over what you were doing on your own devices.

394
00:26:40,164 --> 00:26:48,184
and you know in that way side loading so honors that thing that you can just get an apk which are

395
00:26:48,184 --> 00:26:54,444
the the basically the the packages for for android apps and just install it on your device

396
00:26:54,444 --> 00:27:02,444
and obviously and as we know from bitcoin and nostr uh you know designing on an on an

397
00:27:02,444 --> 00:27:09,124
an open system so like oh anyone can publish apps or anyone can of course a

398
00:27:09,124 --> 00:27:18,444
lot of scam started to to have like a lot of malware started to show up so

399
00:27:18,444 --> 00:27:26,344
slowly in time the Google Play Store you know started restricting a little bit

400
00:27:26,344 --> 00:27:33,184
more and a little bit more and and then they started introducing other ways of

401
00:27:33,184 --> 00:27:39,784
of enhancing let's say security but a bit at the expense of sovereignty let's

402
00:27:39,784 --> 00:27:45,864
say of using sovereignty so in some sense it's still comparing to Apple

403
00:27:45,864 --> 00:27:52,784
where you know in iOS you know they can only download apps from the App Store

404
00:27:52,784 --> 00:28:00,144
right? Well, there's a test flood, which is, you know, kind of, I don't know if anything can go,

405
00:28:00,304 --> 00:28:06,924
but it still requires developers to register and so on. But the idea is that in general,

406
00:28:07,064 --> 00:28:17,444
Android is a way more open system. And that's why I decided to start ZapStore on that specific

407
00:28:17,444 --> 00:28:26,324
platform? You know, so this is really interesting, right, Fran? Because the trade-off here is,

408
00:28:27,284 --> 00:28:30,404
on the one hand, so you don't have to call it sideloading, we can call it sovereign loading,

409
00:28:30,404 --> 00:28:40,044
if you want to, right? Sovereign app using. You know, you want the user to have maximal freedom

410
00:28:40,044 --> 00:28:46,004
in what they choose, what software they choose to add to their phone. But at the same time,

411
00:28:46,004 --> 00:28:50,064
that is opening up a large attack surface, right?

412
00:28:50,644 --> 00:28:53,784
So on the one hand, you have anything goes.

413
00:28:54,604 --> 00:28:55,304
And then on the other hand,

414
00:28:55,324 --> 00:28:58,064
you have this incredibly tight, tightly controlled,

415
00:28:58,204 --> 00:29:00,464
fully KYC-ed walled garden

416
00:29:00,464 --> 00:29:04,064
where the developers have to pass through

417
00:29:04,064 --> 00:29:07,844
presumably background checks and all sorts of things.

418
00:29:08,084 --> 00:29:10,224
And the apps themselves that they build

419
00:29:10,224 --> 00:29:12,504
have to go through some incredibly rigorous

420
00:29:12,504 --> 00:29:14,624
and heavy-handed reviews in most cases

421
00:29:14,624 --> 00:29:17,024
to even make it into the App Store.

422
00:29:17,964 --> 00:29:19,224
How do you solve that?

423
00:29:19,384 --> 00:29:22,864
I mean, this sounds like an incredibly binary choice

424
00:29:22,864 --> 00:29:25,224
of anything goes, including malware

425
00:29:25,224 --> 00:29:29,084
and stuff that can steal your funds and so on,

426
00:29:29,104 --> 00:29:33,844
versus this straight jacket of control

427
00:29:33,844 --> 00:29:35,564
that Apple has on their App Store,

428
00:29:35,764 --> 00:29:36,784
especially in the US.

429
00:29:36,904 --> 00:29:39,104
I know in the EU now there's a Freedom Store

430
00:29:39,104 --> 00:29:41,224
because of the regulations and so on,

431
00:29:41,284 --> 00:29:42,224
and we could talk about that.

432
00:29:42,344 --> 00:29:44,544
But how do you strike that balance?

433
00:29:44,624 --> 00:29:53,624
that's that's a great question and that's what i strive to to build with zaps is essentially

434
00:29:53,624 --> 00:30:01,064
creating something for this adversarial environment and assuming that there will be a

435
00:30:01,064 --> 00:30:08,804
attack surfaces and that there will be bad apps and like how do we deal with that in a way that

436
00:30:08,804 --> 00:30:15,984
is not like someone high up deciding for all of us like we all have our different preferences you

437
00:30:15,984 --> 00:30:23,684
know something might be a risky app in some sense for some people and not for others so the idea is

438
00:30:23,684 --> 00:30:33,164
um is to lower like or to shift i would say the curation part so who is taking care of that is

439
00:30:33,164 --> 00:30:39,404
Is that one central global organization or can we push it down?

440
00:30:39,404 --> 00:30:41,064
Maybe that changes per country.

441
00:30:41,064 --> 00:30:45,544
Maybe that is per community or by type of app.

442
00:30:45,544 --> 00:30:51,604
So that maps pretty well with Nostro Realis if you think about it.

443
00:30:51,604 --> 00:31:02,464
So the idea is to let people take their own risk regarding the apps they want to see.

444
00:31:02,464 --> 00:31:11,324
sometimes as you say that there's the central authority that is classifying applications based

445
00:31:11,324 --> 00:31:21,444
on some particular regulation or some particular view of the of the company or politics or who

446
00:31:21,444 --> 00:31:26,764
knows but just like one way of slicing it and really that's not how the world works and we all

447
00:31:26,764 --> 00:31:33,484
know like different locales and different people have like wildly different

448
00:31:33,484 --> 00:31:44,344
tastes for things and some some things that maybe even be I know classified as

449
00:31:44,344 --> 00:31:52,164
as risk in some places maybe for other people or not so as we all know these

450
00:31:52,164 --> 00:32:01,164
central stores are very close to say government regulation pressure so that's

451
00:32:01,164 --> 00:32:10,104
that's one problem because if one day Bitcoin wallets are nothing they want to

452
00:32:10,104 --> 00:32:17,164
see they can just toggle the switch off and we're out of them right so that's

453
00:32:17,164 --> 00:32:23,464
basically what I'm trying to do is like if for some group of people they think

454
00:32:23,464 --> 00:32:30,764
that Bitcoin is a scam well they are able to run their own curation right and

455
00:32:30,764 --> 00:32:38,004
users of that particular catalog or relay then can choose to see that right

456
00:32:38,004 --> 00:32:44,744
there's sometimes it's not a black and white of what constitutes a good or bad

457
00:32:44,744 --> 00:32:51,984
app. So I think just shifting down the power to users and communities is the way forward.

458
00:32:52,624 --> 00:32:59,964
And the idea is to leverage as much as we can what is available for now on Android to do that.

459
00:33:02,383 --> 00:33:07,984
So you've built Zap Store, which is essentially a marketplace, right, where people can have these

460
00:33:07,984 --> 00:33:12,764
apps. And maybe there's a Web of Trust component to how you pick and choose these apps. But that's

461
00:33:12,764 --> 00:33:14,104
you building your marketplace.

462
00:33:14,964 --> 00:33:16,724
Someone else, and by the way,

463
00:33:16,744 --> 00:33:18,744
I do want to get into that as

464
00:33:18,744 --> 00:33:19,344
well, right?

465
00:33:22,164 --> 00:33:24,824
How do you deal

466
00:33:24,824 --> 00:33:26,724
with the situation where there's someone else?

467
00:33:26,744 --> 00:33:28,744
There's another Fran, a dark Fran

468
00:33:28,744 --> 00:33:30,104
who comes in

469
00:33:30,104 --> 00:33:32,784
and decides to build

470
00:33:32,784 --> 00:33:34,524
a separate marketplace where

471
00:33:34,524 --> 00:33:36,184
there isn't that level of curation

472
00:33:36,184 --> 00:33:37,744
and there is no web of trust.

473
00:33:42,764 --> 00:33:50,084
so how would you deal with that in zapper itself you mean no as you know as a user right so zap

474
00:33:50,084 --> 00:33:55,044
store is one marketplace right but anyone can build a marketplace it sounds like right for

475
00:33:55,044 --> 00:34:01,824
android apps so from a user standpoint right your so your marketplace might be safe but

476
00:34:01,824 --> 00:34:11,704
your own marketplace yeah right right but again i think that is is down to something that we kind of

477
00:34:11,704 --> 00:34:20,744
lost in a way as a society which is personal responsibility like these big big corporations

478
00:34:20,744 --> 00:34:26,184
cannot solve everything for you right so at some point you need to be responsible and make

479
00:34:26,184 --> 00:34:33,704
your own right choices and sure then you can then you can delegate but i mean if you don't if you're

480
00:34:33,704 --> 00:34:39,544
just crossing the street with a red light i mean yeah no one's there to save you so you you need to

481
00:34:39,544 --> 00:34:44,464
be careful with these things and how do you pick it's all about i guess reputation of the different

482
00:34:44,464 --> 00:34:53,764
stores um again on apple this is the default but how you pick the right marketplace or app store

483
00:34:53,764 --> 00:35:03,144
on on android well again there's choice so there's to give some context uh the alternative

484
00:35:03,144 --> 00:35:18,196
App Stores on Android are multiple There FDroid is the a pretty well one and and they essentially uh build a lot of free and open source software and make it available and ensure they have no

485
00:35:18,196 --> 00:35:25,335
trackers and stuff so if f droid if you like f droid's model um even though most of the apps

486
00:35:25,335 --> 00:35:31,495
they build themselves and they might have certain risks because you're not 100 sure it comes from

487
00:35:31,495 --> 00:35:36,196
the developer, but you do trust the F-Droid brand, then that's the perfect marketplace for you.

488
00:35:38,196 --> 00:35:45,436
I think bio-beware makes complete sense, right? In a scenario where if there is any harm, like you

489
00:35:45,436 --> 00:35:50,315
said, if you choose to cross the road when there's a red light. Well, actually, that's an

490
00:35:50,315 --> 00:35:55,635
interesting example, but that has some complexities to it. But if you're the only one who can be

491
00:35:55,635 --> 00:36:00,815
impacted by the choice you're making, I think that bio-beware makes complete sense, right?

492
00:36:00,815 --> 00:36:11,475
But even in the crossing of the road example, right, it's not on you because what if you make a car swerve and it kills someone and then it goes onto the sidewalk and kills someone else, right?

493
00:36:11,535 --> 00:36:17,215
So your actions do impact, potentially do impact someone else.

494
00:36:17,215 --> 00:36:32,715
So, for example, if you buy or, you know, if you use some alternative marketplace that's that's unvetted and lacking in curation and you load some malware and then your phone suddenly becomes this hub for spreading malware to other phones.

495
00:36:32,715 --> 00:36:38,815
Your action has impacted other, I guess, innocent users, for lack of a better term.

496
00:36:39,055 --> 00:36:42,856
I'm not saying there's a there's a I'm not expecting you to answer this, Fran.

497
00:36:42,896 --> 00:36:45,916
I'm just posing this as a sort of a hypothetical out there.

498
00:36:45,916 --> 00:36:47,275
That's a hard point.

499
00:36:50,215 --> 00:36:56,715
So I'm familiar with the Apple App Store,

500
00:36:56,856 --> 00:37:02,896
and I know the approval process is just like one day you'll pass,

501
00:37:02,995 --> 00:37:07,456
the next day it almost seems like it's up to whoever's reviewing it.

502
00:37:07,555 --> 00:37:09,975
So it's a human touching it type of thing.

503
00:37:09,975 --> 00:37:20,696
So, you know, we've seen it where Domus was approved and then Domus wasn't approved or it's up for review and it would normally take a day and then it would take three days.

504
00:37:20,856 --> 00:37:28,635
And it would there was no real guidelines, no infractions, no nothing that they could really define.

505
00:37:28,795 --> 00:37:36,015
But it wasn't passed. But then, you know, the same app that was under a different name did pass.

506
00:37:36,015 --> 00:37:37,936
So obviously there wasn't consistency.

507
00:37:38,655 --> 00:37:45,456
How is the Android, I guess the Google Play Store, what's your experience with that?

508
00:37:48,196 --> 00:37:58,115
Apple is known for doing these things, but also a similar experience can happen on Play Store, at least from an anecdote that I heard.

509
00:37:58,916 --> 00:38:00,795
And as you say, they're completely inconsistent.

510
00:38:00,795 --> 00:38:03,275
They don't have very clear guidelines.

511
00:38:03,275 --> 00:38:06,115
is kind of hit or miss, shooting in the dark

512
00:38:06,115 --> 00:38:10,956
and hoping that every release gets approved.

513
00:38:12,196 --> 00:38:15,956
And that's another aspect that doesn't necessarily have to be like that.

514
00:38:16,535 --> 00:38:19,595
For instance, I'll get back to your question,

515
00:38:19,595 --> 00:38:23,696
but on Zapster, you only get basically,

516
00:38:23,856 --> 00:38:26,356
once you get approved for like your MPOP can publish,

517
00:38:26,675 --> 00:38:29,595
then you're trusting the developer,

518
00:38:29,815 --> 00:38:32,135
but you're not trusting that specific release.

519
00:38:32,135 --> 00:38:33,876
that's not the case

520
00:38:33,876 --> 00:38:36,396
with Apple and

521
00:38:36,396 --> 00:38:37,755
Google

522
00:38:37,755 --> 00:38:39,595
specifically for the Play Store that

523
00:38:39,595 --> 00:38:41,815
insist on

524
00:38:41,815 --> 00:38:44,095
checking every single release

525
00:38:44,095 --> 00:38:44,436
right

526
00:38:44,436 --> 00:38:47,735
and it's incredibly frustrating

527
00:38:47,735 --> 00:38:50,115
and it might be because

528
00:38:50,115 --> 00:38:51,936
it's basically

529
00:38:51,936 --> 00:38:53,995
the duopoly and people

530
00:38:53,995 --> 00:38:55,295
can't do much about it

531
00:38:55,295 --> 00:38:57,896
everyone wants to be on the Apple App Store

532
00:38:57,896 --> 00:39:00,075
and the Google Play Store so they just submit

533
00:39:00,075 --> 00:39:01,916
but the reality is

534
00:39:01,916 --> 00:39:05,856
that it's a very painful process for a lot of developers.

535
00:39:06,055 --> 00:39:11,075
And I heard countless stories, even waiting weeks,

536
00:39:11,235 --> 00:39:12,075
and they're getting rejected.

537
00:39:12,235 --> 00:39:15,475
As you pointed out, the Damo's example is a great one.

538
00:39:17,315 --> 00:39:20,936
Like, is it up to the reviewer in particular?

539
00:39:21,396 --> 00:39:23,675
Or is that a company policy?

540
00:39:23,675 --> 00:39:25,876
Or what does it have to do?

541
00:39:26,015 --> 00:39:30,856
It's very difficult to plan for these things.

542
00:39:31,916 --> 00:39:35,775
And that's another thing that definitely needs some change.

543
00:39:35,775 --> 00:39:38,476
It has been tried with policy.

544
00:39:40,095 --> 00:39:43,755
In the EU, as you mentioned, Avi,

545
00:39:43,896 --> 00:39:48,555
there is this, how is it called,

546
00:39:48,655 --> 00:39:51,495
maybe an act that allows for alternative marketplaces.

547
00:39:52,476 --> 00:39:55,456
However, these lawyers are very good.

548
00:39:55,755 --> 00:40:00,275
And what appears to be a win, it's so-so.

549
00:40:00,275 --> 00:40:05,035
because ultimately for publishing on a Freedom Store,

550
00:40:05,195 --> 00:40:07,315
or I don't know how the other ones are called,

551
00:40:07,896 --> 00:40:10,456
all the apps in there need to be notarized by Apple.

552
00:40:11,515 --> 00:40:14,495
So ultimately, sure, maybe you don't have as strict

553
00:40:14,495 --> 00:40:18,115
as a review process as the main store,

554
00:40:18,436 --> 00:40:20,515
but you still need to be approved by Apple,

555
00:40:20,715 --> 00:40:22,396
and Apple can turn you off at any moment.

556
00:40:24,735 --> 00:40:26,976
And you're referring to that legislation

557
00:40:26,976 --> 00:40:30,035
or whatever passed that, you know, I read the headlines,

558
00:40:30,035 --> 00:40:35,135
oh, you know, Apple's going to be forced to sideload, offer sideloading.

559
00:40:35,495 --> 00:40:36,615
Is that what you were talking about?

560
00:40:37,956 --> 00:40:38,396
Yeah, exactly.

561
00:40:38,635 --> 00:40:42,315
Avi just hinted at that because in the European Union,

562
00:40:42,916 --> 00:40:47,035
there's this law, right, that just basically forced Apple to do this,

563
00:40:47,155 --> 00:40:51,515
but they reached a point in which, well, you know, no, it's not really there.

564
00:40:51,936 --> 00:40:56,155
Also, by the way, to create a marketplace, an alternative marketplace on iOS,

565
00:40:56,155 --> 00:40:59,255
I think maybe you need to

566
00:40:59,255 --> 00:41:03,815
comply and you need to show your books

567
00:41:03,815 --> 00:41:06,515
and you need to make sure that the revenue coming from there

568
00:41:06,515 --> 00:41:09,876
is at least something and then you need to pay fees

569
00:41:09,876 --> 00:41:14,115
so it's very complex, it's not that anyone can just set up a marketplace and go

570
00:41:14,115 --> 00:41:17,555
so it's a fine print

571
00:41:17,555 --> 00:41:19,856
and they turn that into

572
00:41:19,856 --> 00:41:22,815
they turn that PR into

573
00:41:22,815 --> 00:41:25,416
a good campaign or just to

574
00:41:25,416 --> 00:41:27,876
see themselves in a good light

575
00:41:27,876 --> 00:41:29,916
when actually it's just

576
00:41:29,916 --> 00:41:30,835
a trick

577
00:41:30,835 --> 00:41:34,055
and unfortunately

578
00:41:34,055 --> 00:41:35,896
Google seems to

579
00:41:35,896 --> 00:41:37,795
want to go down that path

580
00:41:37,795 --> 00:41:40,015
too, which is very

581
00:41:40,015 --> 00:41:41,376
very concerning for Android

582
00:41:41,376 --> 00:41:44,135
because from a duopoly

583
00:41:44,135 --> 00:41:45,835
if we have at least one

584
00:41:45,835 --> 00:41:47,195
sort of open system

585
00:41:47,195 --> 00:41:49,356
all of a sudden now we might

586
00:41:49,356 --> 00:41:50,255
have two

587
00:41:50,255 --> 00:42:02,255
a few weeks ago, they announced that all side loading would also be subject to developer

588
00:42:02,255 --> 00:42:09,635
registration, which means that even if you're not on the Google Play Store, for the app

589
00:42:09,635 --> 00:42:16,856
to install, and this is on Android stock distribution, basically the Android that most people run,

590
00:42:16,856 --> 00:42:20,396
if you're not registered then the app won't install

591
00:42:20,396 --> 00:42:24,335
which is very close to what

592
00:42:24,335 --> 00:42:27,135
Apple is doing with these alternative stores in the EU

593
00:42:27,135 --> 00:42:31,715
they are not on the official store

594
00:42:31,715 --> 00:42:34,695
but still however

595
00:42:34,695 --> 00:42:37,215
they have the last say

596
00:42:37,215 --> 00:42:41,295
so that's one news that

597
00:42:41,295 --> 00:42:44,735
again very concerning because

598
00:42:44,735 --> 00:42:51,936
it would for many devs many users mean the end of many apps and actually

599
00:42:51,936 --> 00:42:59,615
Ftroyd published a blog post about about this topic very recently a few days ago

600
00:42:59,615 --> 00:43:07,595
and for them which they rely on just building apps for from other people or

601
00:43:07,595 --> 00:43:09,476
it means the end of it.

602
00:43:10,535 --> 00:43:11,795
If Google...

603
00:43:13,856 --> 00:43:17,115
What would it mean for you, though,

604
00:43:17,295 --> 00:43:19,815
or more broadly for ZapStore?

605
00:43:20,135 --> 00:43:23,175
Because it sounds like all the ZapStore apps

606
00:43:23,175 --> 00:43:25,275
would have to register as well, right?

607
00:43:26,555 --> 00:43:27,495
That is correct.

608
00:43:28,675 --> 00:43:31,575
So I guess we're just waiting and trying to see

609
00:43:31,575 --> 00:43:35,015
what will happen because it will be enforced

610
00:43:35,015 --> 00:43:36,916
if everything

611
00:43:36,916 --> 00:43:38,916
if they keep their plan

612
00:43:38,916 --> 00:43:40,976
this will start to be enforced

613
00:43:40,976 --> 00:43:42,936
from September

614
00:43:42,936 --> 00:43:45,215
next year and into

615
00:43:45,215 --> 00:43:46,635
2027 globally

616
00:43:46,635 --> 00:43:48,635
so and that was

617
00:43:48,635 --> 00:43:51,055
they were trying to require

618
00:43:51,055 --> 00:43:53,335
also with that KYC like your home address

619
00:43:53,335 --> 00:43:54,075
and everything

620
00:43:54,075 --> 00:43:56,715
so when you're in this freedom

621
00:43:56,715 --> 00:43:59,015
building in the freedom

622
00:43:59,015 --> 00:43:59,396
tech

623
00:43:59,396 --> 00:44:02,896
the last thing you want to be is doxxed

624
00:44:02,896 --> 00:44:04,295
so yeah

625
00:44:04,295 --> 00:44:06,255
Sorry, keep going.

626
00:44:08,155 --> 00:44:09,275
That's absolutely right.

627
00:44:10,335 --> 00:44:15,575
And I don't know how the wider open source community is taking this.

628
00:44:15,755 --> 00:44:19,835
I don't know if it's a way of channeling the opposition somehow.

629
00:44:19,835 --> 00:44:29,356
Because I know for a fact, because now a little bit later I will explain if you want how this app store is working right now.

630
00:44:29,356 --> 00:44:38,035
But essentially, I'm scraping or collecting a lot of apps that are not signed by devs just to offer users to install them.

631
00:44:38,535 --> 00:44:41,555
And I know that a huge part of them come from GitHub.

632
00:44:42,635 --> 00:44:49,416
So people publish their code on GitHub and also build the app and publish that app on releases.

633
00:44:50,416 --> 00:44:55,035
And you see there's like tons and tons of APKs on GitHub that are hosted there.

634
00:44:55,555 --> 00:44:58,135
And a lot of these are just anons.

635
00:44:58,635 --> 00:44:59,295
They're just devs.

636
00:44:59,356 --> 00:45:02,695
that have an account on GitHub, and they put out this project.

637
00:45:02,695 --> 00:45:08,995
Now, there is apparently, there will be a workaround for this new registration scheme,

638
00:45:09,476 --> 00:45:16,995
which is for hobbyists, you might have like a limited permission or how it's called,

639
00:45:17,095 --> 00:45:22,535
where you don't need to show your ID, but you still need to register with your name and phone and all that.

640
00:45:23,456 --> 00:45:26,075
But it will allow a limited amount of installations.

641
00:45:26,075 --> 00:45:32,976
they don't say the number so it could very well be 10 or i don't know but again it's not it's

642
00:45:32,976 --> 00:45:38,936
still a workaround and it's not the main um issue i think it will have it will impact like

643
00:45:38,936 --> 00:45:44,015
a lot of developers maybe a lot some people are sleeping on it i'm not sure um

644
00:45:44,015 --> 00:45:51,075
yeah someone wants to spearhead the the effort i don't know if the eff or some organization like

645
00:45:51,075 --> 00:45:53,095
that. But I know that F-Droid

646
00:45:53,095 --> 00:45:54,675
does have some contacts with

647
00:45:54,675 --> 00:45:56,936
at least regulators in Europe, but

648
00:45:56,936 --> 00:45:59,175
it's

649
00:45:59,175 --> 00:46:01,195
going to have to be a legal battle, I suppose,

650
00:46:01,515 --> 00:46:02,835
because if it's just

651
00:46:02,835 --> 00:46:05,175
users can't

652
00:46:05,175 --> 00:46:07,115
move basically anywhere else,

653
00:46:07,315 --> 00:46:09,195
so it's going to be a

654
00:46:09,195 --> 00:46:10,835
very difficult one. And of course, it will

655
00:46:10,835 --> 00:46:11,995
impact

656
00:46:11,995 --> 00:46:14,495
ZapStore, definitely.

657
00:46:16,015 --> 00:46:17,055
The irony

658
00:46:17,055 --> 00:46:18,376
here is

659
00:46:18,376 --> 00:46:24,976
you know there's a problem i guess what they claim anyway google or is that they're trying

660
00:46:24,976 --> 00:46:30,856
to solve the problem of trust in developers and the way they solve it is they completely

661
00:46:30,856 --> 00:46:36,535
centralize the certification process right by collecting all this invasive data from the

662
00:46:36,535 --> 00:46:43,135
developers and then they give their stamp of approval or or or not in an incredibly opaque

663
00:46:43,135 --> 00:46:46,315
process, whereas with something like ZapStore,

664
00:46:46,315 --> 00:46:48,936
anything that's Nostro-enabled, in theory,

665
00:46:48,936 --> 00:46:52,396
can leverage a very clean

666
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:56,647
solution to the trust issue, which is web of trust, right?

667
00:46:56,787 --> 00:47:00,687
And either they can't see that, the regulators

668
00:47:00,687 --> 00:47:05,167
and actually Google themselves, or they don't want to see that.

669
00:47:07,307 --> 00:47:08,727
Yeah, that's a great point.

670
00:47:09,187 --> 00:47:10,947
Because actually, if you look at the history,

671
00:47:11,187 --> 00:47:15,047
they've been trying to solve this thing with the same hammer,

672
00:47:15,167 --> 00:47:16,807
but just doing it harder and harder.

673
00:47:16,927 --> 00:47:21,127
Because back in, I think, 2017, they introduced PlayProtect.

674
00:47:21,127 --> 00:47:27,887
and then they kept like doubling down with the same and until now they reach kyc for everyone

675
00:47:27,887 --> 00:47:32,967
and is that the right tool like i think they just want to solve everything with that

676
00:47:32,967 --> 00:47:39,187
as we see maybe in the financial world that has not stopped you know crime or money laundering

677
00:47:39,187 --> 00:47:46,407
that much even by official figures that's like extremely low so the effectiveness of kyc for

678
00:47:46,407 --> 00:47:52,367
stopping this kind of stuff it's it's not going to work and they you know and they keep insisting

679
00:47:52,367 --> 00:48:00,887
so uh fortunately on Noster and that's what I was talking before about like shifting the trust

680
00:48:00,887 --> 00:48:07,487
models because do you want like one big centralized corporation deciding you know which obviously it's

681
00:48:07,487 --> 00:48:12,307
important to have a filter somewhere but where should it be placed should it be them or should

682
00:48:12,307 --> 00:48:19,127
we find other ways i don't think they're actually very interested in other solutions it seems they're

683
00:48:19,127 --> 00:48:27,867
just you know playing on some book and kyc is a solution to everything um on oster since it's well

684
00:48:27,867 --> 00:48:32,947
it's a social network but it's a cryptographic social network in a way because we have signed

685
00:48:32,947 --> 00:48:40,127
messages proving who we follow and with that information we we can derive interesting things

686
00:48:40,127 --> 00:48:48,007
right we can we can draw like a we can map out this graph of of the social network and through

687
00:48:48,007 --> 00:48:55,267
through algorithms we can understand like how much you know could you potentially trust someone

688
00:48:55,267 --> 00:49:01,247
like a follow is not really trusting someone but at least is a signal to without the impersonators

689
00:49:01,247 --> 00:49:06,187
and the scammers right like if just a new endpub comes into an officer and it's like oh hey this is

690
00:49:06,187 --> 00:49:16,267
primal well actually no because i want i i am following primal and i know for sure that it's

691
00:49:16,267 --> 00:49:22,807
them so this is our mechanism uh which is fantastic really because in an adversarial

692
00:49:22,807 --> 00:49:29,887
environment now you don't all of a sudden you don't necessarily need um curators like you could

693
00:49:29,887 --> 00:49:35,647
that's a that's a fantastic second layer and that's that's where relays come in um but web

694
00:49:35,647 --> 00:49:44,807
of trust is a great tool. I don't think these people are familiar at all. And Noster is very

695
00:49:44,807 --> 00:49:56,467
small. Zapter is even smaller. However, F-Droid in a way has solved part of it. I think they're

696
00:49:56,467 --> 00:50:02,607
just choosing not to see it and not to engage in conversation. So Fran, I do want to circle back

697
00:50:02,607 --> 00:50:05,007
in a bit to the web of Trustbit

698
00:50:05,007 --> 00:50:07,287
and the work you've done on Vertex and PageRank.

699
00:50:08,427 --> 00:50:10,567
But before that, right,

700
00:50:10,767 --> 00:50:13,127
let's talk a little more about ZapStore.

701
00:50:13,607 --> 00:50:16,087
So for folks unfamiliar, how does it work?

702
00:50:16,167 --> 00:50:17,547
So if I'm a Nostra developer

703
00:50:17,547 --> 00:50:20,507
and I've built an app for Android,

704
00:50:21,267 --> 00:50:23,707
I have an option, right?

705
00:50:23,827 --> 00:50:25,807
It's a Nostra app that does X, Y, Z.

706
00:50:25,807 --> 00:50:30,487
I can go through the process with the Google Play Store

707
00:50:30,487 --> 00:50:33,647
and see if I can get approved and who knows, right?

708
00:50:33,887 --> 00:50:36,867
Or I can go down the Zap Store route.

709
00:50:36,987 --> 00:50:38,407
So talk about that.

710
00:50:38,747 --> 00:50:42,547
Talk about the apps that you have on Zap Store as well.

711
00:50:45,107 --> 00:50:45,907
Yeah, exactly.

712
00:50:46,047 --> 00:50:49,087
So it's a marketplace, right?

713
00:50:49,187 --> 00:50:51,487
So we have on one side, we have the devs

714
00:50:51,487 --> 00:50:52,707
and on the other side, we have the users.

715
00:50:53,907 --> 00:50:56,987
As a user, well, this is a decentralized app store.

716
00:50:57,207 --> 00:50:58,407
That's the idea.

717
00:50:58,407 --> 00:51:05,527
it's based on Noster, based on relays. And essentially, publishing an app is just

718
00:51:05,527 --> 00:51:15,847
publishing an event. It's one kind of event that represents this application or specific release.

719
00:51:17,527 --> 00:51:22,327
So in this way, we already can basically discard the middleman. We don't care about the middleman,

720
00:51:22,887 --> 00:51:27,287
you know, if that's SAPS or if it's a relay or which relay is coming from, because we have

721
00:51:27,287 --> 00:51:34,727
cryptographic certainty that it was the developer that i follow on noser or that has this and that

722
00:51:34,727 --> 00:51:43,367
reputation is the one that has signed the hash for this file that i'm about to install so that's

723
00:51:43,367 --> 00:51:50,647
that's the main uh principle behind it it's like we we just as we use it for social media right um

724
00:51:50,647 --> 00:51:55,927
like our typical micro blogging use case is that,

725
00:51:56,087 --> 00:51:59,887
oh, I'm seeing notes by a person who has signed this message.

726
00:51:59,887 --> 00:52:02,687
So I'm sure it's genuine.

727
00:52:04,687 --> 00:52:08,587
There's even higher stakes for apps because, you know, they can be,

728
00:52:09,847 --> 00:52:14,867
speech is amazing, but if it's just a bunch of shit poise, okay, fine.

729
00:52:15,027 --> 00:52:19,387
But if it's an app that can steal your funds, like that's a big deal.

730
00:52:19,387 --> 00:52:24,087
so that's why it's so important and that's one of the security aspect i would say

731
00:52:24,087 --> 00:52:30,707
of the store so users can check that and developers can can sign messages and publish

732
00:52:30,707 --> 00:52:38,127
um to it and we have a bunch of of apps that are quite well known in the in the nostreverse

733
00:52:38,127 --> 00:52:45,487
even though it's not at all limited to nostre any app can be uploaded any app can be can be sent to

734
00:52:45,487 --> 00:52:46,687
to the Reader and Blossom server.

735
00:52:46,867 --> 00:52:48,707
So it's,

736
00:52:49,367 --> 00:52:53,507
does that answer your question?

737
00:52:55,287 --> 00:52:56,187
No, yeah, that does.

738
00:52:56,787 --> 00:52:59,367
How many apps are on Zap Store right now?

739
00:53:03,367 --> 00:53:06,887
Now there's about a thousand.

740
00:53:10,487 --> 00:53:12,587
And signed by developers,

741
00:53:12,587 --> 00:53:22,747
there should be around 70 or so and what's the what's the difference in number then well there's

742
00:53:22,747 --> 00:53:29,647
many other applications that i myself or let's say as zap store i have found around and people

743
00:53:29,647 --> 00:53:36,787
wanted to see so i'm just signing it as myself i did not build those apps and i'm working a little

744
00:53:36,787 --> 00:53:44,967
bit on the on the wording on how to make this more clear but the idea is that even if you don't have

745
00:53:44,967 --> 00:53:53,127
that you can still you know you can still use and trust that I index them from the right source

746
00:53:53,127 --> 00:53:58,987
until we get every single developer on us or but then that will take a while

747
00:53:58,987 --> 00:54:02,767
so then there's the

748
00:54:02,767 --> 00:54:04,727
I would say the discovery

749
00:54:04,727 --> 00:54:05,967
because I like to call this

750
00:54:05,967 --> 00:54:07,747
a social

751
00:54:07,747 --> 00:54:09,587
app store

752
00:54:09,587 --> 00:54:12,867
right now feature wise we're not

753
00:54:12,867 --> 00:54:15,007
there yet but I'm working hard on the new version

754
00:54:15,007 --> 00:54:16,187
where

755
00:54:16,187 --> 00:54:18,767
you can start exploring like app

756
00:54:18,767 --> 00:54:20,987
packs and seeing recommendations from

757
00:54:20,987 --> 00:54:22,207
your

758
00:54:22,207 --> 00:54:24,467
your

759
00:54:24,467 --> 00:54:27,007
your followers let's say from your

760
00:54:27,007 --> 00:54:28,287
closest social network

761
00:54:28,287 --> 00:54:37,407
and that's one aspect that is actually quite interesting compared to you know the centralized

762
00:54:37,407 --> 00:54:46,307
big stores which show you recommendations are usually quite irrelevant at least I don't I don't

763
00:54:46,307 --> 00:54:55,547
find anything anything of much interest there so this is a fresh take on what should show on your

764
00:54:55,547 --> 00:55:01,247
homepage when you when you access the store and then there's obviously the

765
00:55:01,247 --> 00:55:07,907
monetization aspect which is you can zap releases you can zap developers and

766
00:55:07,907 --> 00:55:14,207
encourage you know it's value for value for apps here in the future the idea is

767
00:55:14,207 --> 00:55:19,187
to also have paywalls but for now you can you can just have so just the same

768
00:55:19,187 --> 00:55:23,927
experience that you just zap a note you can also zap and appreciate the work

769
00:55:23,927 --> 00:55:25,767
that went with the developer.

770
00:55:30,087 --> 00:55:32,167
When did you start building this, Fran?

771
00:55:36,047 --> 00:55:40,907
This was about a year and a half ago.

772
00:55:42,127 --> 00:55:44,487
I was fortunate to participate in

773
00:55:44,487 --> 00:55:48,687
the Sovereign Engineering Cohort in Madeira.

774
00:55:49,647 --> 00:55:50,947
Fantastic experience.

775
00:55:50,947 --> 00:55:55,167
and the idea was kind of born there

776
00:55:55,167 --> 00:55:56,527
and the first prototype.

777
00:55:57,927 --> 00:56:02,667
So it's, yeah, more or less since then.

778
00:56:02,747 --> 00:56:06,667
The first version came out May of last year

779
00:56:06,667 --> 00:56:10,027
and it's been a journey.

780
00:56:10,027 --> 00:56:14,247
It involves too many moving parts, really,

781
00:56:14,847 --> 00:56:15,827
because there's the app.

782
00:56:15,887 --> 00:56:16,727
It's just not only the app,

783
00:56:16,847 --> 00:56:19,307
but it's also the custom relay

784
00:56:19,307 --> 00:56:22,307
and there's the indexing part and there's libraries

785
00:56:22,307 --> 00:56:26,647
and there's a bunch of things that may not appear obvious

786
00:56:26,647 --> 00:56:29,367
but I'm kind of maintaining a full stack there.

787
00:56:30,807 --> 00:56:39,487
So as well as a tool for developers to publish their apps.

788
00:56:42,147 --> 00:56:43,567
That also received a lot of work

789
00:56:43,567 --> 00:56:48,287
because it's quite complex to parse these Android files and so on.

790
00:56:48,287 --> 00:56:49,527
but

791
00:56:49,527 --> 00:56:52,487
yeah that's basically

792
00:56:52,487 --> 00:56:53,567
the whole

793
00:56:53,567 --> 00:56:56,387
suite of things needed to

794
00:56:56,387 --> 00:56:58,407
make Zapsware work

795
00:56:58,407 --> 00:57:02,227
Did you go this year

796
00:57:02,227 --> 00:57:03,427
to sovereign engineering?

797
00:57:04,267 --> 00:57:05,267
It was

798
00:57:05,267 --> 00:57:07,227
January of 2024

799
00:57:07,227 --> 00:57:09,787
so one and a half year

800
00:57:09,787 --> 00:57:11,407
Well they did it again right?

801
00:57:12,687 --> 00:57:12,927
They

802
00:57:12,927 --> 00:57:15,547
yeah they liked the format and they

803
00:57:15,547 --> 00:57:17,207
continued doing it I think

804
00:57:17,207 --> 00:57:19,947
they must be going by the 6th

805
00:57:19,947 --> 00:57:21,107
or 7th by now.

806
00:57:22,987 --> 00:57:23,867
It's really good.

807
00:57:23,947 --> 00:57:25,707
I would like to participate again.

808
00:57:27,367 --> 00:57:29,127
Or wait until they have

809
00:57:29,127 --> 00:57:32,827
some chapters elsewhere

810
00:57:32,827 --> 00:57:34,567
in the world, hopefully.

811
00:57:34,807 --> 00:57:35,347
Oh, there you go.

812
00:57:35,747 --> 00:57:36,687
Yeah, I know.

813
00:57:36,687 --> 00:57:40,367
When I look to travel to Madeira,

814
00:57:40,707 --> 00:57:43,987
it was a very, very long travel day.

815
00:57:44,347 --> 00:57:46,507
I think 24 hours to finally get there.

816
00:57:47,207 --> 00:57:55,127
based off just the planes from from from phoenix so i i i was i'm planning on it hopefully um in uh

817
00:57:56,247 --> 00:58:04,567
2020 2028 i believe is the next time that they're having the uh the big event so um maybe my son

818
00:58:04,567 --> 00:58:10,967
will be able to travel for that long uh but uh hoping for it uh i'm sure avi will be there

819
00:58:10,967 --> 00:58:14,667
Oh, for Bitcoin Atlantis 28 for sure.

820
00:58:14,667 --> 00:58:16,347
I'll be there.

821
00:58:16,347 --> 00:58:17,807
I don't know about the sovereign engineering.

822
00:58:17,807 --> 00:58:19,107
That's the next big target.

823
00:58:19,107 --> 00:58:22,547
Yeah, but the SEC, I call it.

824
00:58:22,547 --> 00:58:24,587
Yeah, that's because it's all there.

825
00:58:24,587 --> 00:58:25,587
It's all in Madeira, right?

826
00:58:25,587 --> 00:58:40,459
I heard rumblings of things in other parts of the world of similar things Yeah so that what he was talking about the chapters So that be great Yeah So what that That be great the format Go ahead no no go ahead Fran

827
00:58:42,939 --> 00:58:45,479
I really enjoyed the way it was set up

828
00:58:45,479 --> 00:58:48,819
because a lot of it involved, like,

829
00:58:48,979 --> 00:58:52,279
social activities and Gigi's walk and talk

830
00:58:52,279 --> 00:58:54,879
that, for me, was fantastic.

831
00:58:54,879 --> 00:58:58,999
Like, just being there with a very dense group

832
00:58:58,999 --> 00:59:02,279
of very smart people, everyone but me there.

833
00:59:02,519 --> 00:59:03,779
And so super inspiring.

834
00:59:04,999 --> 00:59:07,719
And then, yeah, actually it did end

835
00:59:07,719 --> 00:59:10,719
with the Atlantis Conference on 24.

836
00:59:11,659 --> 00:59:16,199
So every Friday we do presentations

837
00:59:16,199 --> 00:59:17,759
of what we're working on.

838
00:59:18,619 --> 00:59:21,799
And there was such a high energy.

839
00:59:23,059 --> 00:59:25,779
And what I found quite crazy to see

840
00:59:25,779 --> 00:59:28,639
is like the combinations of people

841
00:59:28,639 --> 00:59:30,179
working on different things together.

842
00:59:31,339 --> 00:59:33,119
Like I would not expect this guy

843
00:59:33,119 --> 00:59:34,919
doing something with that guy.

844
00:59:35,079 --> 00:59:38,059
But even with like 20, 25 people,

845
00:59:38,199 --> 00:59:39,519
like all these things were happening.

846
00:59:40,279 --> 00:59:44,159
So that's I think what Freedom Tech needs.

847
00:59:44,719 --> 00:59:47,859
And yeah, I'm very happy that they continue to do it.

848
00:59:48,399 --> 00:59:52,239
I can't say much about the rest of them

849
00:59:52,239 --> 00:59:53,799
because they were quite reserved.

850
00:59:54,039 --> 00:59:55,419
Like they don't share that much.

851
00:59:55,779 --> 00:59:59,859
about what's going on, but super great experience.

852
00:59:59,999 --> 01:00:02,899
I hope, as you guys said, that they can export the format

853
01:00:02,899 --> 01:00:07,359
and, I don't know, get a bunch of nostrils here in Buenos Aires

854
01:00:07,359 --> 01:00:11,359
and do some kind of hacking together.

855
01:00:11,999 --> 01:00:12,799
It would be great.

856
01:00:13,519 --> 01:00:15,679
Well, I'll tell you what, Paraguay would be a really good place

857
01:00:15,679 --> 01:00:20,439
to have the next cohort, just given the groundswell of activity there, right?

858
01:00:20,439 --> 01:00:24,479
And so many Bitcoin expats who've moved there and Nostra expats.

859
01:00:24,479 --> 01:00:34,579
that would be interesting yeah for sure it's um it's relatively close uh you know what you

860
01:00:34,579 --> 01:00:40,999
mentioned about about paraguay the people are are so welcoming um it's kind of um

861
01:00:41,719 --> 01:00:48,419
very interesting story because of you know a big war back in the day and they're just kind of in

862
01:00:48,419 --> 01:00:53,319
between two big countries you know and they they a lot they lost a lot of territory in that they

863
01:00:53,319 --> 01:00:59,319
lost the access to the ocean and they remained like a decimated small country.

864
01:00:59,619 --> 01:01:04,759
And like, in a way, like it sounds harsh, but it just, for some reason, makes them,

865
01:01:04,759 --> 01:01:09,479
oh, like, you know, you're coming here to visit us and they're like extremely welcome

866
01:01:09,479 --> 01:01:10,439
and super warm people.

867
01:01:11,499 --> 01:01:12,859
I don't know, maybe for that reason.

868
01:01:13,719 --> 01:01:15,939
A lot of people say we're, the Argentines are very arrogant.

869
01:01:16,519 --> 01:01:22,659
And so, but I think that that level of energy can be definitely felt.

870
01:01:23,319 --> 01:01:31,919
I'm definitely down. I love going there if some sort of cohort gets organized.

871
01:01:35,839 --> 01:01:38,279
Bobby, start the chapter, man.

872
01:01:39,179 --> 01:01:42,099
You better start brushing up on the Espanol.

873
01:01:42,719 --> 01:01:46,379
It's a long flight, man. It's 10 hours.

874
01:01:47,759 --> 01:01:52,379
Say goodbye to the family for a month and spearhead your chapter.

875
01:01:53,319 --> 01:01:55,999
Franz flight is

876
01:01:55,999 --> 01:01:57,779
just an hour I think

877
01:01:57,779 --> 01:01:58,299
or less

878
01:01:58,299 --> 01:02:00,919
he's a lot closer than I am

879
01:02:00,919 --> 01:02:03,219
a lot closer

880
01:02:03,219 --> 01:02:04,539
was the

881
01:02:04,539 --> 01:02:07,459
down there

882
01:02:07,459 --> 01:02:08,519
down there

883
01:02:08,519 --> 01:02:09,659
the bottom of the world

884
01:02:09,659 --> 01:02:12,559
so a lot of times

885
01:02:12,559 --> 01:02:14,039
it's us who must

886
01:02:14,039 --> 01:02:15,839
fly very long distances

887
01:02:15,839 --> 01:02:18,059
you guys are lucky in the US

888
01:02:18,059 --> 01:02:18,939
there's a lot happening

889
01:02:18,939 --> 01:02:22,419
oh not that much

890
01:02:22,419 --> 01:02:29,279
so was zap store your first NOSTA project

891
01:02:29,279 --> 01:02:33,699
actually it wasn't

892
01:02:33,699 --> 01:02:38,579
I started lurking like

893
01:02:38,579 --> 01:02:42,859
after like the jack effect of December 2022

894
01:02:42,859 --> 01:02:45,999
I was like what's this NOSTA thing

895
01:02:45,999 --> 01:02:47,559
I had heard

896
01:02:47,559 --> 01:02:51,359
JB55 talk about NOSTA

897
01:02:51,359 --> 01:02:53,899
because I was also lurking on Twitter,

898
01:02:53,999 --> 01:02:54,639
didn't have an account.

899
01:02:55,479 --> 01:02:57,059
And he was talking about lightning stuff

900
01:02:57,059 --> 01:02:59,499
and just following what he was doing.

901
01:02:59,779 --> 01:03:04,019
And he started building this damask client for Nasser.

902
01:03:04,679 --> 01:03:08,039
But that was probably late 2022.

903
01:03:08,979 --> 01:03:13,339
So I just said, ah, this thing probably going to go nowhere.

904
01:03:13,339 --> 01:03:15,079
You know, the same mistake as Bitcoin.

905
01:03:16,579 --> 01:03:19,799
And then we got basically Jack

906
01:03:19,799 --> 01:03:22,839
and I saw it again and I saw it again.

907
01:03:23,019 --> 01:03:24,659
So I said, again, I tried this thing out

908
01:03:24,659 --> 01:03:26,739
even though I'm not really a social media guy.

909
01:03:28,359 --> 01:03:36,259
And yeah, I got involved in some conversations

910
01:03:36,259 --> 01:03:38,959
and slowly started to participate,

911
01:03:39,219 --> 01:03:40,879
but I wanted to build something.

912
01:03:42,079 --> 01:03:43,099
You know, I'm a developer.

913
01:03:43,279 --> 01:03:47,639
How can I contribute to make this grow?

914
01:03:47,639 --> 01:03:51,679
I think this is an amazing protocol to build on.

915
01:03:52,059 --> 01:03:59,979
So I decided to create like a comments widget.

916
01:04:00,579 --> 01:04:05,859
So those kind of widgets like Discus, you know, that you would embed on a blog post,

917
01:04:05,919 --> 01:04:09,319
after blog post or a website, but based on Nostra.

918
01:04:09,439 --> 01:04:13,039
So FiatJav had already worked on something, but I thought I could do better.

919
01:04:13,459 --> 01:04:15,039
Or I don't know, I just wanted to try out something.

920
01:04:15,039 --> 01:04:19,259
and I created Zap Threads.

921
01:04:19,539 --> 01:04:20,419
That was the name.

922
01:04:21,679 --> 01:04:25,899
And I worked on it for one or two months

923
01:04:25,899 --> 01:04:29,939
and then I had a call with habla.news.

924
01:04:31,259 --> 01:04:33,139
So all the guys in the team,

925
01:04:33,239 --> 01:04:35,679
they received me super well

926
01:04:35,679 --> 01:04:39,299
and one of my contributions was that,

927
01:04:39,399 --> 01:04:42,019
was the widget for adding comments to habla

928
01:04:42,019 --> 01:04:43,179
which I did not have at the time.

929
01:04:43,179 --> 01:04:45,739
and it was there for

930
01:04:45,739 --> 01:04:48,119
a long time I think now they changed the design

931
01:04:48,119 --> 01:04:48,959
but it's been

932
01:04:48,959 --> 01:04:51,619
the commenting system for

933
01:04:51,619 --> 01:04:53,939
a while and it's also

934
01:04:53,939 --> 01:04:55,659
I think on Nostradal Band

935
01:04:55,659 --> 01:04:58,219
they probably

936
01:04:58,219 --> 01:04:59,899
forked it and fixed a few things

937
01:04:59,899 --> 01:05:01,819
I think it was on

938
01:05:01,819 --> 01:05:03,499
Zap Dot Cooking at some point

939
01:05:03,499 --> 01:05:04,879
I'm not sure but

940
01:05:04,879 --> 01:05:07,399
that was the plan until

941
01:05:07,399 --> 01:05:09,559
I just

942
01:05:09,559 --> 01:05:10,759
thought that

943
01:05:10,759 --> 01:05:15,859
the problem worth fixing with ZapStore was more interesting.

944
01:05:16,799 --> 01:05:18,419
And yeah, just pivoted that way.

945
01:05:18,419 --> 01:05:23,619
But that was the first thing I built on Astro.

946
01:05:24,159 --> 01:05:26,239
And were you a Bitcoiner before then?

947
01:05:30,359 --> 01:05:33,779
Yeah, I've known Bitcoin for a long time,

948
01:05:33,779 --> 01:05:37,779
but it took me

949
01:05:37,779 --> 01:05:41,839
it took me long to understand as well

950
01:05:41,839 --> 01:05:43,439
just to finally

951
01:05:43,439 --> 01:05:47,299
get into the rabbit hole

952
01:05:47,299 --> 01:05:50,939
that was around COVID

953
01:05:50,939 --> 01:05:53,619
but even though I had used it for

954
01:05:53,619 --> 01:05:58,479
even back in 2014

955
01:05:58,479 --> 01:06:00,759
around there

956
01:06:00,759 --> 01:06:11,359
I just used it to get money into Argentina because we've been living in space with a very unstable financial system.

957
01:06:12,639 --> 01:06:18,539
I don't know how familiar you are, but I think it's one of the things that people know Argentina about.

958
01:06:18,539 --> 01:06:29,359
It's like the monetary system here and the financial system is a complete share coin.

959
01:06:29,359 --> 01:06:30,899
and basically

960
01:06:30,899 --> 01:06:31,379
I know

961
01:06:31,379 --> 01:06:32,179
by the way

962
01:06:32,179 --> 01:06:33,179
the only thing I know

963
01:06:33,179 --> 01:06:33,719
about Argentina

964
01:06:33,719 --> 01:06:34,459
is beef

965
01:06:34,459 --> 01:06:35,859
Messi

966
01:06:35,859 --> 01:06:37,599
and Malbec

967
01:06:37,599 --> 01:06:38,099
no

968
01:06:38,099 --> 01:06:40,199
I'm kidding

969
01:06:40,199 --> 01:06:41,459
I am familiar

970
01:06:41,459 --> 01:06:41,779
with it

971
01:06:41,779 --> 01:06:43,659
that's the question

972
01:06:43,659 --> 01:06:44,219
from outside

973
01:06:44,219 --> 01:06:49,139
and

974
01:06:49,139 --> 01:06:50,079
yeah

975
01:06:50,079 --> 01:06:50,339
but

976
01:06:50,339 --> 01:06:51,079
I had a lot of

977
01:06:51,079 --> 01:06:51,719
troubles with that

978
01:06:51,719 --> 01:06:51,939
so

979
01:06:51,939 --> 01:06:53,099
just sending money

980
01:06:53,099 --> 01:06:55,319
it was kind of

981
01:06:55,319 --> 01:06:56,539
crazy to do

982
01:06:56,539 --> 01:06:58,819
maybe lose

983
01:06:58,819 --> 01:07:06,899
half of it along the way between taxes and bank fees and so on so bitcoin sounded like a great

984
01:07:06,899 --> 01:07:16,419
way of moving money in another country and so that was a the first time i used it uh that's

985
01:07:17,299 --> 01:07:23,939
as a utility basically uh i didn't paid much attention so again it didn't fall into

986
01:07:23,939 --> 01:07:26,659
the rabbit hole and fully understand it.

987
01:07:26,699 --> 01:07:29,719
Otherwise, I guess I would not be a collab anymore.

988
01:07:35,899 --> 01:07:36,419
Nice.

989
01:07:38,039 --> 01:07:42,219
So, Fran, you worked on,

990
01:07:42,679 --> 01:07:45,079
I think you were a contributor to Vertex, right?

991
01:07:45,079 --> 01:07:50,659
The web of trust as a service thing that's out there

992
01:07:50,659 --> 01:07:54,259
that I believe uses PageRank,

993
01:07:54,479 --> 01:07:56,299
you know, Google's old search algorithm

994
01:07:56,299 --> 01:08:00,019
to come up with Web of Trust scores on NOSTA.

995
01:08:00,159 --> 01:08:00,839
Is that correct?

996
01:08:03,179 --> 01:08:05,479
So for folks unfamiliar, Fran,

997
01:08:05,679 --> 01:08:07,099
talk a little bit about Vertex.

998
01:08:07,839 --> 01:08:07,939
Yeah.

999
01:08:11,699 --> 01:08:12,299
Yeah.

1000
01:08:12,899 --> 01:08:15,439
So Vertex is an idea that was born

1001
01:08:15,439 --> 01:08:18,159
after some conversations with Pip.

1002
01:08:18,159 --> 01:08:21,639
Pipelia, the social graph guy, I think he goes by

1003
01:08:21,639 --> 01:08:24,819
Anastor, and he's a mathematician

1004
01:08:24,819 --> 01:08:29,059
and he's the guy responsible for understanding all these algorithms and stuff

1005
01:08:29,059 --> 01:08:32,399
but I was looking for a better solution to

1006
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:36,059
derive metrics for Web of Trust

1007
01:08:36,059 --> 01:08:37,439
in Zapstore

1008
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:42,559
and just chatting and then we met at a conference

1009
01:08:42,559 --> 01:08:46,739
and we said, well, there might be something interesting here

1010
01:08:46,739 --> 01:08:51,439
just building a product that could not only be used for ZapStore, but elsewhere.

1011
01:08:52,919 --> 01:08:56,039
And that was the beginning of Vertex.

1012
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:03,639
And I was there with him for some months,

1013
01:09:03,919 --> 01:09:05,579
and we designed a lot of things together,

1014
01:09:05,979 --> 01:09:11,059
including npub.word, which is kind of a front end to the Vertex services.

1015
01:09:11,059 --> 01:09:12,939
in my opinion

1016
01:09:12,939 --> 01:09:14,219
like the best

1017
01:09:14,219 --> 01:09:16,179
Nostra profile

1018
01:09:16,179 --> 01:09:17,239
search

1019
01:09:17,239 --> 01:09:18,959
that exists

1020
01:09:18,959 --> 01:09:21,319
in Nostra fear

1021
01:09:21,319 --> 01:09:22,639
but yeah

1022
01:09:22,639 --> 01:09:23,659
I basically

1023
01:09:23,659 --> 01:09:25,039
I left the project

1024
01:09:25,039 --> 01:09:27,279
in the beginning

1025
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:27,819
of this year

1026
01:09:27,819 --> 01:09:29,479
because

1027
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:30,939
it was just too overwhelming

1028
01:09:30,939 --> 01:09:31,919
I had too many things

1029
01:09:31,919 --> 01:09:32,419
on my plate

1030
01:09:32,419 --> 01:09:33,819
but

1031
01:09:33,819 --> 01:09:34,579
Pip is

1032
01:09:34,579 --> 01:09:35,399
is amazing

1033
01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:35,819
and

1034
01:09:35,819 --> 01:09:38,379
I think he

1035
01:09:38,379 --> 01:09:39,659
he got one of the most

1036
01:09:39,659 --> 01:09:40,339
valuable

1037
01:09:40,339 --> 01:09:46,379
tools on Nasser that is not super well known. Maybe he needs to work a bit better on the marketing,

1038
01:09:47,319 --> 01:09:55,019
but everyone should look it up. Now he opened it up. It used to be, I think that you needed some

1039
01:09:55,019 --> 01:10:00,799
credits, but now it's like pretty much free for anyone to just play with. And it can solve so

1040
01:10:00,799 --> 01:10:06,639
many problems because it just, of course, it's a centralized service. Let's put it that way.

1041
01:10:06,639 --> 01:10:12,639
but that is giving you very fast and actionable information

1042
01:10:12,639 --> 01:10:26,071
derived from the whole graph right using the PageRank algorithm And also I think he uses what called the personalized page rank which is not a global metric

1043
01:10:26,431 --> 01:10:30,031
but it's the ranks from

1044
01:10:30,031 --> 01:10:34,071
your own perspective, basically. So how your

1045
01:10:34,071 --> 01:10:37,331
MPub sees the whole rest of the network more than the global view.

1046
01:10:37,851 --> 01:10:41,531
And I think it has so many interesting use cases.

1047
01:10:41,531 --> 01:10:43,551
like one that comes to mind

1048
01:10:43,551 --> 01:10:44,671
is

1049
01:10:44,671 --> 01:10:47,291
you can order for example

1050
01:10:47,291 --> 01:10:49,111
let's say a comment by

1051
01:10:49,111 --> 01:10:51,471
Odell I mean a post

1052
01:10:51,471 --> 01:10:53,211
on Nosfer by Odell they might have

1053
01:10:53,211 --> 01:10:54,971
a hundred comments

1054
01:10:54,971 --> 01:10:57,371
but they're normally sorted

1055
01:10:57,371 --> 01:10:59,431
by date but it would be really

1056
01:10:59,431 --> 01:11:01,391
interesting if you know people who just

1057
01:11:01,391 --> 01:11:03,171
are not interesting to me

1058
01:11:03,171 --> 01:11:05,351
would go to the bottom and I could just

1059
01:11:05,351 --> 01:11:07,431
surface the interesting like people

1060
01:11:07,431 --> 01:11:08,791
who are closer to me in the graph

1061
01:11:08,791 --> 01:11:11,471
of course maybe I should be able to toggle

1062
01:11:11,471 --> 01:11:20,671
that on and off but the idea is that in that way i can i can improve the massive the user experience

1063
01:11:20,671 --> 01:11:28,831
then of course everything has to do with impersonators is just off actually a lot of

1064
01:11:28,831 --> 01:11:34,991
times when you wanted more information about the network and about um puppies and so on you go to

1065
01:11:34,991 --> 01:11:36,091
not sort of the dot band.

1066
01:11:37,751 --> 01:11:39,391
Because they have some stats there

1067
01:11:39,391 --> 01:11:41,071
and, you know, you can find people.

1068
01:11:41,811 --> 01:11:44,391
But the metrics, in my opinion,

1069
01:11:44,491 --> 01:11:45,491
were way off.

1070
01:11:45,631 --> 01:11:47,531
Even primals are off.

1071
01:11:48,751 --> 01:11:50,491
It all depends how you measure that.

1072
01:11:51,311 --> 01:11:53,031
But I think Pip did a good work

1073
01:11:53,031 --> 01:11:54,551
with the page rank algorithm

1074
01:11:54,551 --> 01:11:59,571
where he's doing like a cutoff, right?

1075
01:11:59,631 --> 01:12:02,331
So if your rank is like very, very, very low,

1076
01:12:02,971 --> 01:12:04,751
he will kind of discard those endpups

1077
01:12:04,751 --> 01:12:06,851
and just keep the ones that are, you know,

1078
01:12:07,611 --> 01:12:11,351
there could be bots because some bots may provide value.

1079
01:12:11,351 --> 01:12:14,251
Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone is human,

1080
01:12:14,391 --> 01:12:19,771
but it's like signal on the top and noise away, right?

1081
01:12:21,271 --> 01:12:23,971
So he ended up, I don't want to lie,

1082
01:12:24,291 --> 01:12:30,431
but 300,000 keys or something like that

1083
01:12:30,431 --> 01:12:33,431
that are, you know, at least has some reputation.

1084
01:12:33,431 --> 01:12:36,051
and I don't know if they were active every single day.

1085
01:12:36,151 --> 01:12:40,751
I think he also released, was it yesterday or the day before?

1086
01:12:41,051 --> 01:12:43,271
If you go to mpub.world, now there's some stats

1087
01:12:43,271 --> 01:12:47,691
so you can kind of start tracking the growth of Nasr,

1088
01:12:47,691 --> 01:12:51,111
how many people are participating and posting notes and so on.

1089
01:12:51,371 --> 01:12:53,691
So that's going to be interesting to see.

1090
01:12:55,351 --> 01:12:58,551
To me, of all the metrics I've seen,

1091
01:12:59,391 --> 01:13:02,431
or at least the quality of the mpubs that are in there,

1092
01:13:02,431 --> 01:13:04,291
is very accurate.

1093
01:13:05,611 --> 01:13:08,171
So it's basically a way of assigning scores.

1094
01:13:08,351 --> 01:13:11,031
Is it to NPUBs or to events as well?

1095
01:13:13,631 --> 01:13:15,151
It's only to NPUBs

1096
01:13:15,151 --> 01:13:17,511
because it's evaluating the social graph, basically.

1097
01:13:17,771 --> 01:13:18,591
Who points to who?

1098
01:13:19,491 --> 01:13:21,731
PageRank, what basically says,

1099
01:13:22,171 --> 01:13:24,231
is what is the probability?

1100
01:13:24,631 --> 01:13:25,691
Out of a random walk,

1101
01:13:25,751 --> 01:13:27,611
what is the probability of ending up in one node?

1102
01:13:27,611 --> 01:13:30,451
So very well-known people have more probabilities,

1103
01:13:30,631 --> 01:13:31,491
so they have a higher score.

1104
01:13:32,431 --> 01:13:43,331
But again, some people may think that this global page rank views somehow is assigning a score.

1105
01:13:43,651 --> 01:13:47,011
It just kind of sounds like a credit score.

1106
01:13:47,131 --> 01:13:48,071
Social credit score.

1107
01:13:49,691 --> 01:13:50,611
I know.

1108
01:13:50,731 --> 01:13:55,931
How do you not think digital ID and social credit score?

1109
01:13:56,431 --> 01:13:59,291
It cannot be conflated with web of trust.

1110
01:13:59,291 --> 01:14:05,751
yeah and as i was saying particularly when you have the personalized page rank because in that

1111
01:14:05,751 --> 01:14:11,691
case every single end pub has different values of the whole network so there's no way you can apply

1112
01:14:11,691 --> 01:14:17,271
like a top-down approach and chinese style you know censor people by by page rank

1113
01:14:17,271 --> 01:14:23,891
so that makes a whole lot more sense to me by the way fran right having a personalized

1114
01:14:23,891 --> 01:14:31,351
I guess score is not the best word, but a personalized rank or a view of the network,

1115
01:14:31,351 --> 01:14:37,091
because it's more representative of human interactions anyway, right? Because my view of you,

1116
01:14:38,091 --> 01:14:42,611
right, how much I trust you could be very different from how much, let's say, QW trusts you,

1117
01:14:42,611 --> 01:14:48,891
for instance, right? And so these are individual relationships. I think having a localized score

1118
01:14:48,891 --> 01:14:49,891
makes a lot more sense.

1119
01:14:51,591 --> 01:14:52,291
Yeah, for sure.

1120
01:14:52,831 --> 01:14:57,851
But I will say that the signal could be much better.

1121
01:14:58,431 --> 01:15:01,291
It's just the tools and the data that we have at the moment.

1122
01:15:02,231 --> 01:15:08,151
Because following someone does not necessarily imply a lot of trust.

1123
01:15:10,271 --> 01:15:14,611
It might hint at, well, maybe the people I don't follow

1124
01:15:14,611 --> 01:15:17,991
or the ones that by consequence are not in the graph,

1125
01:15:17,991 --> 01:15:23,831
like it's the people that have a high chance of being impersonators or whatever but yeah it would

1126
01:15:23,831 --> 01:15:31,571
be great to have other kinds of signals for example i'm i met abby in person you know and i i or i

1127
01:15:31,571 --> 01:15:36,631
vouch for this but you know we had eternal debates on the nips repo about this stuff and it's very

1128
01:15:36,631 --> 01:15:42,531
hard to agree on on something the follows are like you know they're there so they're the easiest thing

1129
01:15:42,531 --> 01:15:45,251
to implement, but it will be good.

1130
01:15:45,251 --> 01:15:49,431
Also, if you consider how many notes you exchange,

1131
01:15:49,511 --> 01:15:52,291
if you exchange DMs, if you zapped each other,

1132
01:15:53,091 --> 01:15:54,511
also zaps are kind of tricky

1133
01:15:54,511 --> 01:15:56,571
because they can be faked.

1134
01:15:57,491 --> 01:16:01,271
But if you leverage the web of trust,

1135
01:16:01,471 --> 01:16:03,031
then you have a higher chance perhaps

1136
01:16:03,031 --> 01:16:06,931
that the zap actually was a real one.

1137
01:16:07,191 --> 01:16:11,971
So all that data, which is public, can be used.

1138
01:16:12,531 --> 01:16:14,431
And probably mutes.

1139
01:16:14,891 --> 01:16:16,671
And I don't know if a lot of mutes are private,

1140
01:16:16,671 --> 01:16:18,951
but I don't know.

1141
01:16:19,051 --> 01:16:22,051
Those things might also help in that direction.

1142
01:16:23,851 --> 01:16:26,851
And do any clients use this today?

1143
01:16:26,991 --> 01:16:28,991
Because this is built out as a service, right?

1144
01:16:29,111 --> 01:16:32,551
So Vertex is something that, in theory,

1145
01:16:32,731 --> 01:16:33,771
a client can plug into.

1146
01:16:33,971 --> 01:16:37,471
So Primal could start using Vertex

1147
01:16:37,471 --> 01:16:40,651
to show Primal users

1148
01:16:40,651 --> 01:16:43,831
only the things that have a high enough score

1149
01:16:43,831 --> 01:16:44,991
within their web of trust.

1150
01:16:45,551 --> 01:16:47,511
Actually, you said it's not for events.

1151
01:16:47,611 --> 01:16:48,631
It's only for end pubs, right?

1152
01:16:48,691 --> 01:16:50,591
So it's only going to show them the end pubs

1153
01:16:50,591 --> 01:16:52,271
that are above a certain threshold

1154
01:16:52,271 --> 01:16:54,631
in their replies or whatever, right?

1155
01:16:55,151 --> 01:16:57,651
So are there any clients who are using this today?

1156
01:17:02,111 --> 01:17:02,831
There are.

1157
01:17:03,211 --> 01:17:05,651
I don't recall exactly which ones now,

1158
01:17:05,731 --> 01:17:06,591
apart from ZapStore.

1159
01:17:06,811 --> 01:17:09,191
I think on South Atlantis they're using it as well.

1160
01:17:09,191 --> 01:17:11,291
and there's

1161
01:17:11,291 --> 01:17:13,351
a few other clients

1162
01:17:13,351 --> 01:17:14,911
not the big ones but

1163
01:17:14,911 --> 01:17:16,631
it is being used

1164
01:17:16,631 --> 01:17:18,331
I need to

1165
01:17:18,331 --> 01:17:20,671
dig deeper into that one

1166
01:17:20,671 --> 01:17:23,371
but definitely I wish

1167
01:17:23,371 --> 01:17:25,251
it was more widespread

1168
01:17:25,251 --> 01:17:27,251
especially

1169
01:17:27,251 --> 01:17:29,431
when you're searching for profiles

1170
01:17:29,431 --> 01:17:30,411
and that's

1171
01:17:30,411 --> 01:17:33,531
I see so many clients that are just not good

1172
01:17:33,531 --> 01:17:35,051
when you type a name

1173
01:17:35,051 --> 01:17:37,211
if you're

1174
01:17:37,211 --> 01:17:38,051
you're signed in, right?

1175
01:17:38,071 --> 01:17:40,231
You should get the result you want immediately

1176
01:17:40,231 --> 01:17:42,071
because you should just surface.

1177
01:17:42,891 --> 01:17:44,871
And that's exactly the experience on mpop.word

1178
01:17:44,871 --> 01:17:46,891
that I would love to see everywhere.

1179
01:17:47,411 --> 01:17:49,951
Many times I'm using just a regular client.

1180
01:17:50,311 --> 01:17:51,531
The clients I use, I change.

1181
01:17:52,031 --> 01:17:52,851
I was using Jumbo.

1182
01:17:53,011 --> 01:17:53,711
I think it's pretty cool.

1183
01:17:55,531 --> 01:17:57,271
It does have some good search right there.

1184
01:17:57,391 --> 01:18:00,671
But I find myself going to mpop.word a lot of times

1185
01:18:00,671 --> 01:18:04,011
when I want to make sure that I just type in the stuff

1186
01:18:04,011 --> 01:18:05,831
and the right profile will appear.

1187
01:18:07,211 --> 01:18:17,151
Have you looked into Vitor's NIP 85 on trusted assertions? Because that takes a slightly different approach, if I'm not mistaken.

1188
01:18:18,051 --> 01:18:23,691
Yeah, I'm not too familiar with that one. I get the concept. I did look at it.

1189
01:18:23,691 --> 01:18:36,351
it would perhaps serve as that primitive that I was talking about to put more weight on a certain connection,

1190
01:18:37,831 --> 01:18:40,191
if that's what I recall from it.

1191
01:18:40,871 --> 01:18:44,431
It would maybe involve like a topic or something like that,

1192
01:18:44,911 --> 01:18:51,191
where you could say, I trust Abby on wine taste,

1193
01:18:51,191 --> 01:18:52,611
or

1194
01:18:52,611 --> 01:18:57,211
that guy, I don't trust him

1195
01:18:57,211 --> 01:18:58,751
on certain other things

1196
01:18:58,751 --> 01:19:01,211
I don't trust him for car mechanic

1197
01:19:01,211 --> 01:19:01,991
advice or whatever

1198
01:19:01,991 --> 01:19:05,011
that might be

1199
01:19:05,011 --> 01:19:08,891
sorry, I just said you nailed it

1200
01:19:08,891 --> 01:19:13,151
and so

1201
01:19:13,151 --> 01:19:16,051
there were other discussions

1202
01:19:16,051 --> 01:19:18,611
because other people have other opinions

1203
01:19:18,611 --> 01:19:20,051
on how this should be done

1204
01:19:20,051 --> 01:19:22,711
and there's other ways of doing

1205
01:19:22,711 --> 01:19:24,951
a web of trust, absolutely.

1206
01:19:25,311 --> 01:19:27,731
There's not only PageRank.

1207
01:19:30,391 --> 01:19:31,951
And other NIPs, for sure,

1208
01:19:32,091 --> 01:19:33,391
are proposing other things,

1209
01:19:33,531 --> 01:19:36,191
but it gets very complicated very fast.

1210
01:19:38,271 --> 01:19:40,671
Yeah, there's Nathan Day's Attestations NIP.

1211
01:19:40,991 --> 01:19:42,551
That's relatively recent.

1212
01:19:42,691 --> 01:19:43,291
Oh, that's great.

1213
01:19:43,471 --> 01:19:44,411
Yeah, three or four.

1214
01:19:44,611 --> 01:19:45,151
That is great.

1215
01:19:45,371 --> 01:19:45,691
I love that.

1216
01:19:46,371 --> 01:19:46,851
Definitely.

1217
01:19:47,231 --> 01:19:48,511
Yeah, actually, I heard about this

1218
01:19:48,511 --> 01:19:50,711
for the first time on PlebGenerate Radio

1219
01:19:50,711 --> 01:19:52,931
when you had Nathan on.

1220
01:19:53,831 --> 01:19:56,211
I was like, man, this is perfect for his app store.

1221
01:19:57,531 --> 01:20:00,031
You know, I want people to be attesting

1222
01:20:00,031 --> 01:20:03,451
to certain apps or certain releases.

1223
01:20:03,971 --> 01:20:06,511
And I talked to him briefly about it.

1224
01:20:11,031 --> 01:20:13,471
Yeah, there's too many nips

1225
01:20:13,471 --> 01:20:16,191
and too much bike shedding,

1226
01:20:16,191 --> 01:20:18,531
too much eternal discussions on there.

1227
01:20:18,651 --> 01:20:20,291
But the reality is

1228
01:20:20,291 --> 01:20:22,991
the NIP that counts is the NIP

1229
01:20:22,991 --> 01:20:25,091
that is deployed and used by people.

1230
01:20:25,911 --> 01:20:26,871
You know, obviously,

1231
01:20:27,071 --> 01:20:29,691
we try not to duplicate work

1232
01:20:29,691 --> 01:20:30,831
and just do things in parallel.

1233
01:20:30,971 --> 01:20:33,871
We try to be an interoperable network.

1234
01:20:34,611 --> 01:20:37,451
But just proof of work, man.

1235
01:20:38,591 --> 01:20:39,671
That's how it has to be.

1236
01:20:41,331 --> 01:20:43,191
Well, at least Nostra doesn't have

1237
01:20:43,191 --> 01:20:44,431
the same level of bike shedding

1238
01:20:44,431 --> 01:20:46,131
as Bitcoin seems to these days.

1239
01:20:46,191 --> 01:20:48,231
with the discussion.

1240
01:20:48,231 --> 01:20:48,571
Oh, man.

1241
01:20:49,331 --> 01:20:52,191
The core versus NOS and all of that stuff that's happening.

1242
01:20:52,911 --> 01:20:54,851
I'm just going to point that out.

1243
01:20:54,871 --> 01:20:56,031
We don't have to go there at all.

1244
01:20:56,371 --> 01:20:57,231
In fact, I don't want to.

1245
01:20:57,451 --> 01:20:58,131
You don't want to go there.

1246
01:20:59,251 --> 01:21:01,131
No, let's not do it.

1247
01:21:03,691 --> 01:21:07,611
So, Fran, general thoughts on, you know,

1248
01:21:07,611 --> 01:21:13,071
I guess we're in October 2025 on the trajectory of NOSTA.

1249
01:21:13,071 --> 01:21:15,211
first of all the evolution in

1250
01:21:15,211 --> 01:21:17,471
this year, right, we're entering the

1251
01:21:17,471 --> 01:21:19,451
10th month of the year, then where

1252
01:21:19,451 --> 01:21:21,271
you think it's going to go

1253
01:21:21,271 --> 01:21:22,711
or the foreseeable, or the

1254
01:21:22,711 --> 01:21:24,391
near future, let's say

1255
01:21:24,391 --> 01:21:29,471
Oh man, it's

1256
01:21:29,471 --> 01:21:31,491
a great question because I'm not really

1257
01:21:31,491 --> 01:21:33,831
sure if there's something specific

1258
01:21:33,831 --> 01:21:35,411
about Noster

1259
01:21:35,411 --> 01:21:37,551
itself, I just want

1260
01:21:37,551 --> 01:21:39,471
to see, I would love to see like

1261
01:21:39,471 --> 01:21:41,451
more, of course more people

1262
01:21:41,451 --> 01:21:44,991
on it, but more businesses on it somehow.

1263
01:21:44,991 --> 01:21:47,251
I don't claim to have like the recipe for that.

1264
01:21:49,351 --> 01:21:52,391
To me, it was more a year of like the AI

1265
01:21:52,391 --> 01:21:55,391
and how, you know, what, that was kind of more

1266
01:21:55,391 --> 01:22:07,403
the angle of things that I saw developing and there was a lot of conversation about it on Nostrad But about Nostrad itself the protocol maybe I been out of the loop or something to focus on my things

1267
01:22:07,763 --> 01:22:12,783
But is there anything you see super interesting these days about it?

1268
01:22:13,443 --> 01:22:14,523
No, I don't.

1269
01:22:14,883 --> 01:22:15,483
No, I'm kidding.

1270
01:22:16,203 --> 01:22:22,563
Look, I had a really good chat with Max Hillebrand

1271
01:22:22,563 --> 01:22:25,963
and a few others actually when we were out in Asensio

1272
01:22:25,963 --> 01:22:27,203
a couple of weeks back.

1273
01:22:27,843 --> 01:22:30,103
And certainly lots of stuff to look forward to,

1274
01:22:30,183 --> 01:22:31,383
white noise and the evolution,

1275
01:22:31,503 --> 01:22:32,883
I guess marmot now, right?

1276
01:22:33,703 --> 01:22:34,423
Which is,

1277
01:22:35,343 --> 01:22:37,843
so there's some interesting stuff there.

1278
01:22:38,243 --> 01:22:39,843
I also heard from,

1279
01:22:39,943 --> 01:22:41,683
I can't remember who was telling me this,

1280
01:22:41,743 --> 01:22:42,843
but there were some rumblings

1281
01:22:42,843 --> 01:22:48,103
of onion-routed physical male.

1282
01:22:50,503 --> 01:22:52,363
Because, for instance, right,

1283
01:22:52,363 --> 01:22:53,443
there's so many,

1284
01:22:53,443 --> 01:22:57,803
I guess merchants now, right?

1285
01:22:57,823 --> 01:22:59,323
There's Soap Miner, there's Great Key,

1286
01:22:59,663 --> 01:23:02,043
there's Leather Mint, right?

1287
01:23:02,143 --> 01:23:05,343
And others who are selling their wares for Nostra's apps.

1288
01:23:05,983 --> 01:23:08,283
I think one problem there is,

1289
01:23:09,163 --> 01:23:11,203
I mean, I'm sure they're all great people,

1290
01:23:11,203 --> 01:23:16,343
but buyers could be hesitant in letting out

1291
01:23:16,343 --> 01:23:18,323
or giving out their physical address

1292
01:23:18,323 --> 01:23:20,103
to someone on Nostra.

1293
01:23:20,923 --> 01:23:22,623
So someone mentioned to me

1294
01:23:22,623 --> 01:23:24,463
that there is some people

1295
01:23:24,463 --> 01:23:26,643
looking into onion routed physical

1296
01:23:26,643 --> 01:23:28,263
mating, right? So it would be

1297
01:23:28,263 --> 01:23:29,843
you, you know,

1298
01:23:30,223 --> 01:23:32,603
you request a delivery of

1299
01:23:32,603 --> 01:23:34,443
something, but it's not your

1300
01:23:34,443 --> 01:23:36,103
address that goes to

1301
01:23:36,103 --> 01:23:37,703
the, right?

1302
01:23:38,043 --> 01:23:38,723
It's a property.

1303
01:23:39,563 --> 01:23:40,043
Yeah.

1304
01:23:41,623 --> 01:23:44,103
That's amazing. I think these services exist

1305
01:23:44,103 --> 01:23:46,343
in the world. I don't know if it needs to

1306
01:23:46,343 --> 01:23:47,163
involve Nostra.

1307
01:23:48,783 --> 01:23:50,283
I will only be in the case

1308
01:23:50,283 --> 01:23:51,883
where you don't trust the merchant.

1309
01:23:52,623 --> 01:23:56,303
Yeah, that sounds interesting.

1310
01:23:56,303 --> 01:24:02,943
I know that a lot of tiny things are being worked on, even like the famous kit replacement

1311
01:24:02,943 --> 01:24:06,423
and the toll gate stuff.

1312
01:24:06,423 --> 01:24:09,903
And of course, White Noise actually reminds me of that.

1313
01:24:09,903 --> 01:24:10,903
That's super exciting.

1314
01:24:10,903 --> 01:24:15,623
I wish one day we had finally an interoperable encrypted communications.

1315
01:24:15,623 --> 01:24:21,103
We're kind of relying on Signal for now, which is pretty good.

1316
01:24:21,103 --> 01:24:23,163
I'm really bullish on that.

1317
01:24:24,483 --> 01:24:27,543
I'm really looking forward to when ZapDot's dream works again.

1318
01:24:31,163 --> 01:24:33,583
But it goes to the underlying issue.

1319
01:24:33,743 --> 01:24:36,563
It's like, you know, we don't have to look forward.

1320
01:24:36,703 --> 01:24:40,963
We can just fix what's here today and make things normally ready.

1321
01:24:41,643 --> 01:24:47,643
Really just make it simple to use because we have, you know,

1322
01:24:47,643 --> 01:24:55,543
the superpower or our special, uh, our, our weapon that we have in our, uh, at, in our hands

1323
01:24:55,543 --> 01:25:01,263
is, is the zaps. I mean, if we can just make things actually work, uh, instead of just chasing

1324
01:25:01,263 --> 01:25:09,083
all these ideas, um, just, just make some things, refine what we have. Um, you know, zap.stream is a

1325
01:25:09,083 --> 01:25:15,123
great product. It's a great, anybody can use it. They can monetize it. Um, it just, it needs to

1326
01:25:15,123 --> 01:25:22,623
work and i and it was almost like right when it was being processed getting pushed out to fountain

1327
01:25:22,623 --> 01:25:30,183
um primal uh noster amethyst all of a sudden it didn't work and it's like oh it was we're so close

1328
01:25:30,183 --> 01:25:36,323
right there because that was such a uh such a benefit to uh to everybody as far as the the

1329
01:25:36,323 --> 01:25:43,583
the content community and the and the consumers i don't know if we need to run our own or what we

1330
01:25:43,583 --> 01:25:44,303
need to figure out.

1331
01:25:44,623 --> 01:25:45,463
ZapDot stream.

1332
01:25:46,263 --> 01:25:46,743
Exactly.

1333
01:25:47,343 --> 01:25:48,363
ZapDot stream works,

1334
01:25:48,443 --> 01:25:48,743
QW.

1335
01:25:49,083 --> 01:25:49,763
You just need to run

1336
01:25:49,763 --> 01:25:50,163
your own.

1337
01:25:50,283 --> 01:25:50,723
That's it.

1338
01:25:51,203 --> 01:25:51,943
Roll your own.

1339
01:25:52,243 --> 01:25:53,323
Roll your own stream.

1340
01:25:55,623 --> 01:25:57,083
I want the one click

1341
01:25:57,083 --> 01:25:57,623
installer.

1342
01:25:59,343 --> 01:26:00,483
We need to improve the

1343
01:26:00,483 --> 01:26:01,143
UX there, Kieran.

1344
01:26:01,223 --> 01:26:01,943
I know you're drowning

1345
01:26:01,943 --> 01:26:03,403
on DDoS at this moment,

1346
01:26:03,523 --> 01:26:05,083
but we want it easier.

1347
01:26:05,923 --> 01:26:06,103
I want it.

1348
01:26:08,103 --> 01:26:09,643
Our balance on ZapDot

1349
01:26:09,643 --> 01:26:11,943
stream, Avi, which

1350
01:26:11,943 --> 01:26:13,003
doesn't even make sense.

1351
01:26:13,003 --> 01:26:15,803
what did you read when you read our balance?

1352
01:26:16,143 --> 01:26:21,423
So before this show, I checked to see if we had enough balance on Zap.Stream.

1353
01:26:21,543 --> 01:26:24,923
We're not streaming on Zap.Stream, unfortunately, Fran, because of the DDoS.

1354
01:26:25,043 --> 01:26:28,543
But I checked the balance to make sure that there was enough.

1355
01:26:28,623 --> 01:26:34,963
And it showed some absurd number, like hundreds of millions, maybe even billions of sats.

1356
01:26:35,363 --> 01:26:39,123
I was getting like 18 billion sats on here.

1357
01:26:39,123 --> 01:26:41,503
And now I just refresh it and we're at zero sats.

1358
01:26:41,503 --> 01:26:44,283
So I don't even know if it's just DD.

1359
01:26:44,923 --> 01:26:46,183
I don't know, man.

1360
01:26:46,703 --> 01:26:48,403
It's just such a Nostra thing.

1361
01:26:50,023 --> 01:26:52,403
But, yeah, that's what we do.

1362
01:26:52,743 --> 01:26:54,623
Avi, we're going back to Nostra Nest.

1363
01:26:56,263 --> 01:26:56,663
Oh.

1364
01:26:59,783 --> 01:27:01,103
I second that, QW.

1365
01:27:01,303 --> 01:27:06,843
I think it's about, well, there's a lot of people doing different things,

1366
01:27:06,843 --> 01:27:10,803
but it would be great to just kind of polish the stuff that we already have

1367
01:27:10,803 --> 01:27:16,323
and make it like even more normie friendly and you know improve the ux and keep iterating and

1368
01:27:16,323 --> 01:27:20,923
iterating then just inventing like a bunch of new stuff i mean it's all cool you know we all want to

1369
01:27:21,543 --> 01:27:26,603
you know play around with things but just make it more and more attractive for people maybe

1370
01:27:26,603 --> 01:27:35,263
have some integration with i don't know other i don't know if primal was working on that like

1371
01:27:35,263 --> 01:27:38,183
and integration with other social media platforms.

1372
01:27:39,223 --> 01:27:43,143
Just try to build bridges for people from elsewhere

1373
01:27:43,143 --> 01:27:45,023
to come on to Nostra.

1374
01:27:46,223 --> 01:27:48,803
Yeah, careful what you wish for on that front, Fran.

1375
01:27:49,143 --> 01:27:51,623
Alex Gleason built the Mastodon bridge,

1376
01:27:52,183 --> 01:27:56,783
and it is a cesspool of just the worst kind of content.

1377
01:28:00,363 --> 01:28:02,843
What's your Mastodon username, Avi?

1378
01:28:03,123 --> 01:28:04,723
You want to put that out here?

1379
01:28:05,263 --> 01:28:07,243
I don't have one.

1380
01:28:07,883 --> 01:28:12,063
But that some of these bridges are, I don't know, man.

1381
01:28:12,203 --> 01:28:14,383
Maybe you're better off being an isolated island.

1382
01:28:14,643 --> 01:28:15,623
We're having our fun here.

1383
01:28:18,003 --> 01:28:18,623
That's true.

1384
01:28:18,803 --> 01:28:21,443
It could be like a one-way direction bridge, right?

1385
01:28:21,443 --> 01:28:25,803
Like you just push the Nasser stuff out and you don't see any of the other stuff

1386
01:28:25,803 --> 01:28:27,543
and you just relax on your island.

1387
01:28:28,143 --> 01:28:28,223
True.

1388
01:28:28,463 --> 01:28:33,443
You know, you don't have to read the blue-haired Macedon people.

1389
01:28:33,443 --> 01:28:39,623
people. It is a be careful what you wish for because, you know, when the more popular it gets,

1390
01:28:39,683 --> 01:28:44,463
I mean, we talk about these other social media platforms and, you know, the content that's on

1391
01:28:44,463 --> 01:28:51,763
there or the politics or the endless bickering. You know, is that just what, is that how we know

1392
01:28:51,763 --> 01:28:58,083
Nostra is growing is because all that bickering starts coming here? No. Because we're, no, no.

1393
01:28:58,483 --> 01:29:01,783
Because I just think there's something special about these micro communities.

1394
01:29:01,783 --> 01:29:04,623
but everybody wants more and more adoption

1395
01:29:04,623 --> 01:29:06,563
and it's kind of like a

1396
01:29:06,563 --> 01:29:09,123
it's be careful what you wish for

1397
01:29:09,123 --> 01:29:10,983
but no

1398
01:29:10,983 --> 01:29:12,823
it's purely the alga

1399
01:29:12,823 --> 01:29:14,323
I refuse to accept

1400
01:29:14,323 --> 01:29:16,563
sorry

1401
01:29:16,563 --> 01:29:17,923
just one quick thing Fran

1402
01:29:17,923 --> 01:29:19,643
I refuse to accept that

1403
01:29:19,643 --> 01:29:22,303
sign of growth is bickering

1404
01:29:22,303 --> 01:29:23,543
and negativity

1405
01:29:23,543 --> 01:29:26,663
no we have to break that

1406
01:29:26,663 --> 01:29:27,763
we have to break that sign

1407
01:29:27,763 --> 01:29:29,423
dark nostril Avi it's coming

1408
01:29:29,423 --> 01:29:31,303
oh yeah

1409
01:29:31,303 --> 01:29:34,703
but it needs to be powered by the algorithms,

1410
01:29:35,063 --> 01:29:35,283
you know,

1411
01:29:35,363 --> 01:29:37,323
someone has to build the algorithms on us.

1412
01:29:38,183 --> 01:29:38,623
Yeah.

1413
01:29:39,303 --> 01:29:39,923
But anyway,

1414
01:29:40,023 --> 01:29:40,883
what I want is,

1415
01:29:40,983 --> 01:29:41,483
is,

1416
01:29:41,483 --> 01:29:42,483
is Reddit and Noster.

1417
01:29:42,723 --> 01:29:43,143
Come on.

1418
01:29:43,423 --> 01:29:45,703
We've been going around that in circles.

1419
01:29:46,163 --> 01:29:48,003
I don't know how many specs for communities we have,

1420
01:29:48,063 --> 01:29:49,103
but there's nothing working.

1421
01:29:49,543 --> 01:29:51,183
I just want Reddit and Noster.

1422
01:29:51,363 --> 01:29:55,363
And that's honestly one of the best ways of bringing people on board because

1423
01:29:55,363 --> 01:29:57,163
it's topical.

1424
01:29:57,163 --> 01:30:00,583
So if you want to read about or write about knitting,

1425
01:30:00,583 --> 01:30:02,863
then you just go there. It's simple.

1426
01:30:03,543 --> 01:30:04,943
I don't know why it's

1427
01:30:04,943 --> 01:30:06,383
not, doesn't exist yet.

1428
01:30:06,963 --> 01:30:08,443
It doesn't have to be necessarily.

1429
01:30:10,083 --> 01:30:11,003
Satellite.Earth

1430
01:30:11,003 --> 01:30:12,603
was having a big revamp.

1431
01:30:14,183 --> 01:30:14,403
And I

1432
01:30:14,403 --> 01:30:16,943
feel like that was one of the closer things

1433
01:30:16,943 --> 01:30:18,663
to...

1434
01:30:18,663 --> 01:30:20,903
Yeah, I love Stu, but he needs to

1435
01:30:20,903 --> 01:30:21,203
ship.

1436
01:30:22,623 --> 01:30:24,743
Yeah, we're so early, man.

1437
01:30:26,383 --> 01:30:26,903
Just

1438
01:30:26,903 --> 01:30:27,943
always so early.

1439
01:30:27,943 --> 01:30:30,903
A few years, I think, the last time I heard.

1440
01:30:31,183 --> 01:30:34,803
But then there were other initiatives around communities.

1441
01:30:35,923 --> 01:30:39,403
Neil Leesmans was working on one called Community Keys.

1442
01:30:40,143 --> 01:30:41,643
I don't know if maybe at the Damas team,

1443
01:30:41,723 --> 01:30:44,603
they're all also trying to address this.

1444
01:30:45,523 --> 01:30:46,563
I just want to see it.

1445
01:30:47,143 --> 01:30:49,163
I would build it, but I don't have the time.

1446
01:30:49,323 --> 01:30:52,943
Rabble was trying to do something with communities on NOS Social.

1447
01:30:53,943 --> 01:30:55,503
I wonder where that is right now.

1448
01:30:55,923 --> 01:30:56,323
All right.

1449
01:30:56,643 --> 01:30:56,883
Yeah.

1450
01:30:57,943 --> 01:30:59,463
yeah

1451
01:30:59,463 --> 01:31:02,063
if it's not on my radar

1452
01:31:02,063 --> 01:31:03,303
I'm pretty active on Nostra

1453
01:31:03,303 --> 01:31:04,683
if it's not on my radar

1454
01:31:04,683 --> 01:31:07,543
well who knows maybe I'm missing out on the fun

1455
01:31:07,543 --> 01:31:10,203
but it's just not something

1456
01:31:10,203 --> 01:31:11,303
that people are talking about

1457
01:31:11,303 --> 01:31:13,523
your vertex cut off score is

1458
01:31:13,523 --> 01:31:15,703
is not right Fran

1459
01:31:15,703 --> 01:31:17,263
you're missing out on all the good stuff

1460
01:31:17,263 --> 01:31:20,023
you gotta turn it down

1461
01:31:20,023 --> 01:31:25,563
I just thought about that

1462
01:31:25,563 --> 01:31:27,083
one community that

1463
01:31:27,083 --> 01:31:29,243
Rabble was talking about during our show.

1464
01:31:29,563 --> 01:31:31,783
It's like the meth...

1465
01:31:31,783 --> 01:31:33,543
I don't even know. Some meth community.

1466
01:31:34,143 --> 01:31:35,103
Oh, the meth.

1467
01:31:37,103 --> 01:31:38,143
Yeah, right.

1468
01:31:38,303 --> 01:31:40,163
He was using it as an example

1469
01:31:40,163 --> 01:31:41,463
of freedom.

1470
01:31:43,543 --> 01:31:44,823
Like the vegan meth users

1471
01:31:44,823 --> 01:31:46,503
and the carnivore meth users.

1472
01:31:46,923 --> 01:31:48,703
Yeah, just some off-the-wall

1473
01:31:48,703 --> 01:31:50,863
community, but that's where they lived.

1474
01:31:51,863 --> 01:31:53,123
Everybody has a home.

1475
01:31:53,123 --> 01:31:53,723
you know

1476
01:31:53,723 --> 01:31:57,683
Reddit is another case of

1477
01:31:57,683 --> 01:32:00,163
how bad the internet has become

1478
01:32:00,163 --> 01:32:01,983
like I cannot access it anymore

1479
01:32:01,983 --> 01:32:03,683
every time I go to Reddit

1480
01:32:03,683 --> 01:32:05,403
it's like you're blocked, you're bought

1481
01:32:05,403 --> 01:32:07,283
yeah

1482
01:32:07,283 --> 01:32:09,063
using VPN so

1483
01:32:09,063 --> 01:32:11,743
that's insane

1484
01:32:11,743 --> 01:32:14,143
the internet is becoming

1485
01:32:14,143 --> 01:32:15,823
like so bad, so so bad

1486
01:32:15,823 --> 01:32:17,443
I'm so glad that

1487
01:32:17,443 --> 01:32:19,343
NOSTA exists man

1488
01:32:19,343 --> 01:32:20,463
NOSTA fixes this man

1489
01:32:20,463 --> 01:32:23,663
so Fran

1490
01:32:23,663 --> 01:32:26,623
any calls to action

1491
01:32:26,623 --> 01:32:29,063
anything you want to

1492
01:32:29,063 --> 01:32:30,983
any place you want to send

1493
01:32:30,983 --> 01:32:31,903
our listeners to

1494
01:32:31,903 --> 01:32:35,103
yeah

1495
01:32:35,103 --> 01:32:36,763
visit zapstore.dev

1496
01:32:36,763 --> 01:32:38,683
and check out the new website

1497
01:32:38,683 --> 01:32:39,063
see

1498
01:32:39,063 --> 01:32:42,763
if you want to know more about it

1499
01:32:42,763 --> 01:32:43,883
download it

1500
01:32:43,883 --> 01:32:44,663
ask me questions

1501
01:32:44,663 --> 01:32:45,723
I'm pretty active

1502
01:32:45,723 --> 01:32:46,383
you can

1503
01:32:46,383 --> 01:32:49,803
you can find me on

1504
01:32:49,803 --> 01:32:55,483
on ZapStore, that's easy, or friends app on Nostra.

1505
01:32:56,243 --> 01:32:59,923
I want devs to, you know, there's still a few devs

1506
01:32:59,923 --> 01:33:04,583
that are producing Android apps that are in the Nostra ecosystem

1507
01:33:04,583 --> 01:33:07,223
and are not signing our name names,

1508
01:33:07,383 --> 01:33:09,363
but it would be really cool if they did.

1509
01:33:09,803 --> 01:33:16,263
I'm super happy that one of the latest ones that I was hoping for is Primal.

1510
01:33:16,263 --> 01:33:21,263
So Primal is now signing the releases on Zapster.

1511
01:33:22,263 --> 01:33:23,323
That's pretty cool to see.

1512
01:33:24,843 --> 01:33:25,923
So shout out to them.

1513
01:33:27,083 --> 01:33:28,603
And that's about it.

1514
01:33:28,603 --> 01:33:30,103
If you know, just hit me up

1515
01:33:30,103 --> 01:33:31,743
if you have any questions about it.

1516
01:33:33,103 --> 01:33:37,163
I started to write a post about this whole

1517
01:33:37,163 --> 01:33:38,843
developer registration thing,

1518
01:33:40,563 --> 01:33:43,603
which has me a little worried, to be honest.

1519
01:33:43,603 --> 01:33:44,843
I hope to push up.

1520
01:33:44,895 --> 01:33:46,475
that soon.

1521
01:33:47,695 --> 01:33:47,955
And

1522
01:33:47,955 --> 01:33:50,395
yep, that's it.

1523
01:33:52,335 --> 01:33:52,895
Awesome.

1524
01:33:53,555 --> 01:33:55,175
Anything else you have, QW?

1525
01:33:57,475 --> 01:33:58,575
No, no.

1526
01:33:58,795 --> 01:34:00,635
That was an interesting show.

1527
01:34:01,415 --> 01:34:02,695
We touched on

1528
01:34:02,695 --> 01:34:04,995
Web of Trust, I think,

1529
01:34:04,995 --> 01:34:06,515
more than any other show, Avi.

1530
01:34:06,915 --> 01:34:09,075
It's something that's constantly in development.

1531
01:34:10,295 --> 01:34:10,895
It's that

1532
01:34:10,895 --> 01:34:12,715
golden goose,

1533
01:34:12,855 --> 01:34:13,875
if we can get it right.

1534
01:34:13,875 --> 01:34:18,755
So it's just one of those things that carrot we keep chasing.

1535
01:34:19,275 --> 01:34:21,255
So I love that we highlight it.

1536
01:34:21,695 --> 01:34:23,635
And it's always just so interesting to me too.

1537
01:34:24,955 --> 01:34:25,215
Yeah.

1538
01:34:25,355 --> 01:34:32,135
And I can't help but think we need another phone option besides Android and Apple.

1539
01:34:32,535 --> 01:34:37,635
But that's a big task and regulations might not let that happen.

1540
01:34:37,635 --> 01:34:47,215
I was going to ask you guys when are you coming on the right side but I'm not so

1541
01:34:47,215 --> 01:35:00,460
convinced about the right side anymore Exactly We wait it out Yeah well you know when the top in and everything going to start falling apart when Avi and I switch to

1542
01:35:00,460 --> 01:35:02,280
Android then we're going to get super rugged

1543
01:35:02,280 --> 01:35:04,500
yeah we'll be

1544
01:35:04,500 --> 01:35:05,260
buying the top

1545
01:35:05,260 --> 01:35:10,380
alright well Fran appreciate

1546
01:35:10,380 --> 01:35:11,560
you taking the time

1547
01:35:11,560 --> 01:35:14,040
and educating us

1548
01:35:14,040 --> 01:35:16,520
on everything you do

1549
01:35:16,520 --> 01:35:18,380
appreciate you my friend

1550
01:35:18,380 --> 01:35:20,460
and we will see you on Nostra, I'm sure.

1551
01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:23,920
I'm sure too.

1552
01:35:24,360 --> 01:35:26,500
Thank you for this time.

1553
01:35:26,640 --> 01:35:27,520
It was a great conversation.

1554
01:35:29,520 --> 01:35:31,080
And thank you to all the...

1555
01:35:31,080 --> 01:35:31,760
I come to Argentina.

1556
01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:33,680
Yeah, there you go.

1557
01:35:33,680 --> 01:35:35,680
Wine and Messi and...

1558
01:35:36,280 --> 01:35:37,480
There you go.

1559
01:35:37,480 --> 01:35:37,980
And Malay.

1560
01:35:39,660 --> 01:35:40,300
All right.

1561
01:35:40,880 --> 01:35:42,780
Well, thank you, everyone who listened.

1562
01:35:43,300 --> 01:35:45,640
All those PubChain pioneers

1563
01:35:45,640 --> 01:35:48,620
and pleb chain plebs.

1564
01:35:48,880 --> 01:35:51,940
If you appreciate us, hit the subscribe.

1565
01:35:52,580 --> 01:35:54,700
Make your presence felt via Fountain

1566
01:35:54,700 --> 01:35:57,400
or anywhere Value for Value is alive and well.

1567
01:35:57,900 --> 01:35:59,620
And we will see you next week.

1568
01:36:00,620 --> 01:36:01,260
Goodbye.