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Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses on the intersection of Nostra and Bitcoin protocols.

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Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers, doers and plebs.

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All right, we are live.

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Welcome, gentle plebs, to the Lightning-Laced Airwaves.

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This is episode 121 of Pleb Chain Radio, 11 squared.

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And today is Friday, the 18th of July, and it is 4.58 p.m.

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on the east coast of the United States at the time of recording.

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We have a fun show ahead of you today.

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Our guest is Millian, the creator of Primal,

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and he's here to talk about all things primal and beyond.

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And a reminder, folks, if you are listening to this show on Apple or Spotify,

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first of all, thank you for listening, but I would urge you to hit pause

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and switch over to the Fountain Podcasting app

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where you can earn some sats and support the value-for-value revolution as you listen.

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and while you're there folks

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if you could subscribe to our show

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on Fountain

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and support us

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we would genuinely appreciate it

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and it would unlock

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full access

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to bonus episodes for you

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and QW

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I normally at this point would say

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the show is streamed live on

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zap.stream and any other

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Noster client that supports

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streaming such as Amethyst

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and Noster

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Sure. Having said that, Zap.Stream has been getting vandalized with a denial of service attack over the last...

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We will not be canceled, Avi. We will keep fighting back.

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We are streaming to it right now with zero viewers. It's complete darkness.

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But hey, you know, we're doing our part.

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the signal is being transmitted.

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Unclear if the recipient is there.

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The tree, QW, has fallen in the forest.

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There is no one to hear it.

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But they will be listening, as I said, on the Fountain app.

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And that said, QW, you've been paying attention

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to Bitcoin and Nostoculture in the last week.

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What have you noticed?

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Speaking of UX, was the Scardust album

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released today? Number one, was that being attacked? And number two, how was it, Avi?

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So yes, our good friends and Bitcoin maximalists, and more importantly, incredible progressive metal

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band, Scardust, had their new albums, Souls, which is released today, July 18th. And the release,

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they did a live stream.

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They tried to stream on Zap.Stream.

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That didn't work.

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Unfortunately, the stream itself,

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so nothing to do with Zap.Stream,

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their live stream or the venue, I believe,

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had some audio issues.

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So there were a few hiccups there on the live stream.

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But all in all, an excellent show,

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the live stream, which is a few hours ago today,

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earlier this afternoon on Friday.

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And I am looking forward to listening to the album.

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I've started on a few songs, very, very promising, looking to dive in some more.

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Avi, when you listen to an album for the first time, paint me that setting.

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Because, you know, when you're looking forward to something like you have been with this Souls album,

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do you kind of set aside some time, get a glass of wine and let the metal,

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and let your head bang a little bit?

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Tell me about how you set this up.

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Because you want to ultimately listen to the album from front to back, right?

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Or you just catch a song here, catch a song there.

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I mean, giving it ultimate respect would kind of be setting aside that hour,

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hour and a half to listen in the entirety.

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Yeah, the first two or three listens of the album for me

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are pretty much just scanning.

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So I listen, so it doesn't matter where I am.

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I just need some, you know, let's say however long the album is,

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an hour or so, right?

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I need an hour of alone time.

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It needs to be a fairly inactive activity like driving.

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I can't be writing or doing something else while I'm listening.

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But the first few times I just listen to it to see if there's any one song,

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there's some chords or some hook that catches my interest.

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So then I note that song for later.

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And then I come back to that.

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So with any album like this, there's always two or three songs

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that on the first couple of listens sort of catch my attention

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for various reasons.

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And I return to those.

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And then by the 10th or 15th listen over the course of a week or two,

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I know those songs pretty well

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and then I can move on

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expand that concentric circle

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if you will until the whole album

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is exhausted now that's not to say

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that I'm going to like every single

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song on every single album of my favorite

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band that's a rarity

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but yeah that's generally

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how I approach it

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just close your eyes

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and listen to the dazzling darkness right

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not when I'm driving

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but yes

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That was a pun to the ode to the, I think, track number four or five.

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That's right.

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But yeah, that's awesome.

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And the way they've kind of adopted Noster and took on Zap.Stream, very forward leaning on the technology side, especially from the leaning away from the legacy media side.

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Kudos to Scardust.

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We will continue to shine a light on their work because it's damn good.

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uh secondly you know i'll talk about this because it just wrapped up and it is now the 18th so all

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those uh those those nostriges or plebs traveling from mobile alabama i hope you travel well uh

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heard that was a good event i didn't get a lot of the updates i i don't think i don't know how

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much there was but uh i was definitely in a signal chat uh and it seemed like it was a good time lots

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of pleb-friendly events going on.

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I saw some, you know, Sergio mentioned the VR.

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And VR is just kind of funny to me, right?

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That virtual reality, because, you know,

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you're essentially in a room with another,

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there was like three dudes in a room with headsets on,

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just kind of shadow boxing or something.

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It just kind of, it's got some Ethereum vibes to me.

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I don't know about you, Avi.

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Are you a VR guy?

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Absolutely not.

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But you're an AI guy.

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I mean, you've got to watch it, change the acronym.

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But no, it looked like a great time.

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I want to hear about the skydiving too.

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But yeah.

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And then another thing happened this week, Avi, and it's kind of taking Nostra by storm.

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Avi, I was wondering what you were going to do with your homelessness, I mean, retirement.

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But I understand you're finding home.

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And I think that goes along with homelessness, right?

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That's right.

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A homeless man needs to find a home.

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I want to learn more because I love this journey.

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I love the, and we talked about the kind of Bourdain-esque, Bitcoin-esque, you know, I think everyone loves food.

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I think it's something that speaks to our heart.

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But I love the fact that travel, I think that speaks to everyone's heart.

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I like the combination of this all.

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Tell me a little bit about it and then how it's been received.

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Yeah, so for those who are wondering what we're talking about, I have been working for a long time on this idea.

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It really was an idea until it's come to fruition very recently.

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And it's a show called Finding Home.

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And the idea is to, in an homage to Anthony Bourdain, but with a wink to Bitcoin, do the food, travel and culture show with Bitcoiners, especially Bitcoiners who are expats or immigrants living in a land, making that land or that country their home.

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just as, and to draw the parallel with how,

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with the two journeys that those folks have gone through.

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One is to find their physical home,

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and the other is to find their sovereign home in Bitcoin.

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So the first episode, or the pilot, I should say,

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that was filmed several months ago,

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but for various reasons I had,

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my fiat job was keeping me busy.

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We couldn't release it.

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And finally, you know, editing, all of that was done, and we released it on IndieHub, which is a lightning-enabled pay-per-view platform.

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So you can go there, browse the catalog, see something you like, and then you can rent it and pay in sats to watch.

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So that was out on IndieHub today.

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And I have a couple more episodes in the hopper.

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I filmed episode number two in Prague when I was at BTC Praga last month.

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That's gone into post-production.

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And we talked about Scardust, QW.

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It is being edited and directed by Lahav and Noah from Scardust.

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So that's something I'm looking forward to.

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And then episode three is going to be in Paraguay in September.

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And for that, I'm in the process of fundraising.

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there is this really cool new Bitcoin

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Bitcoin script and NOSTA

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based protocol called Angor

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I think that was launched a month ago

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so I'm testing out their

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fundraising

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it's actually

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really cool, it's fully self-custodial

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because it's on

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it uses time locks and Bitcoin script

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and all of that and we'll get their CEO

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on our show

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next month

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the Paraguay episode

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is in pre-production

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is set, the filming is set for mid-September

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and I'm in the process of fundraising for that.

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There's rumors that the season finale

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of Finding Home is actually going to end

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with you naked in the jungle at the Primal House

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and you finally found your home.

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I have been thinking about Costa Rica

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more broadly for an episode.

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There are some really cool expat stories

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that end in Costa Rica.

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So maybe KW.

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It's going to end with a broken leg cliff diving.

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No, that's awesome, man.

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It's really cool to see that.

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And you have time right now to really look inward

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and start building things that you been passionate about whereas your Fiat lifestyle would actually just pretty much black hole that passion So good for you man I really looking forward to your

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journey and you finding home. So finally, the last thing, upcoming August 1st through 3rd,

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Lake Satoshi. If you're in the area, if you're in Michigan, it's a very pleb, grassroot

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event. If you like camping like Avi does, absolutely look out for Lake Satoshi.

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And that's it, Avi. What is our sermon today?

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Our sermon today is Noster is Dead. I repeat, QW. Noster is Dead. Dearly beloved plebs,

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we gather at the freshly dug grave of our favorite protocol.

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The tombstone reads,

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Noster died of irrelevance.

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Signed, Anonymous Neckbeard and Armchair Twitter Philosopher

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eight days ago.

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Yet, QW, from six feet under,

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we hear the unmistakable ping of a zap.

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Apparently the corpse still pulls from the iPhone

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Using Primal and Darmus

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Fires up Amethyst on Android

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Doom scrolls Iris

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Swaps to Snort and Coracle

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Slings GIFs on Nostur

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And checks clout on Nostur.band

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Meme-obsessed ghosts haunt the chronological feed

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Group chatters riot in Chachi, and all this happens inside one of the 450-plus live apps running on 800 active relays we're told no longer exist.

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Still skeptical of this rigor mortis?

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World-renowned metal bands run 24-7 live streams on Zap.Stream because nothing says dead like real-time video.

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Others flex Runster for fitness zaps

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They roll out Yana's wallet plus Blossom Media server

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And let Flotilla turn relays into Discord-style hangouts

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This is an odd hobby for a cadaver, isn't it?

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And while critics toss dirt, Primal is paving the graveyard with moving walkways

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One-tap onboarding, lightning baked in

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And, fresh from BTC Prague, the glistening Primal Studio, so creators can schedule, zap, and syndicate without ever touching the soil.

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So the next time someone solemnly intones Noster is dead, remind them.

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Zombies don't ship weekly releases, host conferences, or pay you in sats.

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They just eat brains.

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so critics might want to guard theirs to the extent those still exist and with that

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go ahead qw yeah i i'm just laughing because zap.stream is down uh so anybody that like

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thinks platform if you if you're still in that platform mindset just kind of like twitter's down

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if you're listening to twitter spaces and then all of a sudden it crashes you're like twitter's down

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someone's on zapdots stream they're like nostrils down it's like no it's just it's just one one

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tentacle of nostril uh and it's impossible to take it down but yeah i just it's i don't know

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it was uh zombies eat brains uh you had me there and with that i think it's time to bring on our

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guest milian welcome back to the show good sir hey guys good to be with you

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So, Milian, we've got to start with a burning question, as we always do.

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Is Noster dead?

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Yeah, it's hilarious.

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It kind of reminds me of all of those Bitcoin is dead news articles that we've seen over the years.

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You know, the Bitcoin obituaries.

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Maybe we should start something similar for Noster.

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Seems like we're kind of lacking.

240
00:16:11,472 --> 00:16:15,632
We're kind of two, three years in, maybe four, depending on how you calculated.

241
00:16:15,772 --> 00:16:23,352
and this is only one of our first death pronouncements that we got recently uh we need to

242
00:16:23,352 --> 00:16:25,812
pump those numbers those are rookie numbers

243
00:16:25,812 --> 00:16:36,892
love it well our live audience uh is uh at zero right now so now certainly appears to be dead

244
00:16:36,892 --> 00:16:43,492
and it turns out you know to all the critics we would like to say you were right you know we're

245
00:16:43,492 --> 00:16:50,872
dead. You know, Miljad, you said something once. I think it was at BTC Prague last year

246
00:16:50,872 --> 00:16:57,512
during Dev Hack Day. And you said, Nostra is a perfect example of something that doesn't work

247
00:16:57,512 --> 00:17:02,832
in theory, but works in practice. And I think that's really true, right? For the most part.

248
00:17:04,692 --> 00:17:11,932
Yeah, I mean, it's really interesting to observe all of these, quote unquote,

249
00:17:11,932 --> 00:17:18,652
competing protocols sprouting up and I think Odell has the best framing there you know many of the

250
00:17:18,652 --> 00:17:24,172
so-called competitors are actually blue sky competitors they're not really NOSTER competitors

251
00:17:24,972 --> 00:17:31,612
but it kind of helps us maybe get a clearer picture of what it is that we're actually doing

252
00:17:31,612 --> 00:17:38,892
here how NOSTER is actually different for a protocol like this for a network like this to

253
00:17:38,892 --> 00:17:43,452
to exist come into being,

254
00:17:44,012 --> 00:17:50,132
it has to be a kind of an organic grassroots situation.

255
00:17:50,132 --> 00:17:55,172
You know, a few different factors need to be satisfied.

256
00:17:55,792 --> 00:17:57,552
So, for example, you know,

257
00:17:58,092 --> 00:18:01,112
all the users need to hold their keys

258
00:18:01,112 --> 00:18:05,132
for a network to, of course, be truly decentralized

259
00:18:05,732 --> 00:18:07,912
and for users to be self-sovereign.

260
00:18:07,912 --> 00:18:18,632
So check. Then the architecture of the network needs to be such that anyone can run any part of the infrastructure.

261
00:18:19,452 --> 00:18:31,892
So let's definitely check on Oster. And then lastly, there needs to be evidence and proof that people in fact are running all kinds of different parts of infrastructure just without permission.

262
00:18:31,892 --> 00:18:40,052
and that's also happening on Oster and I think if you look at everything through that lens

263
00:18:40,052 --> 00:18:45,172
Oster really has no competitors because when you look at the competing networks

264
00:18:45,172 --> 00:18:54,432
none of them satisfy all three criteria only Oster is there you know a protocol that has

265
00:18:54,432 --> 00:19:00,792
kind of sprouted out of nothing and organically grew to a place where we have by the way we have

266
00:19:00,792 --> 00:19:03,772
way more than 800 active relays.

267
00:19:04,312 --> 00:19:06,692
By our count, we have like over 2,000,

268
00:19:06,772 --> 00:19:08,652
close to 3,000 active relays.

269
00:19:09,392 --> 00:19:11,932
So this is like plebs running the infrastructure.

270
00:19:12,152 --> 00:19:15,392
Anyone can do it and people are doing it.

271
00:19:16,072 --> 00:19:19,132
Then you have, you know, media hosting services.

272
00:19:19,132 --> 00:19:23,632
There is maybe a dozen different Blossom media hosting services

273
00:19:23,632 --> 00:19:24,792
that are interoperable.

274
00:19:25,752 --> 00:19:26,732
You know, that's incredible.

275
00:19:27,892 --> 00:19:30,292
There are a number of indexers out there, you know,

276
00:19:30,292 --> 00:19:34,092
And in terms of apps, I mean, they're impossible to keep track of.

277
00:19:34,732 --> 00:19:35,772
There's so many of them.

278
00:19:36,512 --> 00:19:42,772
So Noster is a movement and it's thriving,

279
00:19:44,032 --> 00:19:45,892
even though it's still early days,

280
00:19:45,892 --> 00:19:48,472
but there isn't anything like it out there.

281
00:19:49,332 --> 00:19:53,712
And you can see, you know, like people coming in

282
00:19:53,712 --> 00:19:56,072
and, you know, with their critiques and stuff like that.

283
00:19:56,152 --> 00:20:00,252
But I think a lot of them come from, I don't know,

284
00:20:00,292 --> 00:20:06,372
place of maybe irrelevance or jealousy or you know it's a desperate cry for attention it's kind

285
00:20:06,372 --> 00:20:14,912
of the way i'm looking at it yeah the mini apps i have to i have to interject here because i created

286
00:20:14,912 --> 00:20:21,772
one this week it's called hash man it's a pac-mon i went on shakespeare i'm about 130 deep into

287
00:20:21,772 --> 00:20:28,992
shakespeare by the way that can be pricey uh trying to actually vibe code something uh but i

288
00:20:28,992 --> 00:20:36,232
made a pac-man game it was called hash man uh all the little boosts were like thermal paste uh cpu

289
00:20:36,232 --> 00:20:42,572
cooler heat sink uh motherboard upgrade and you had to basically eat as many it's just like pac-man

290
00:20:42,572 --> 00:20:49,292
but you eat all the little hashes and uh once you get to a certain threshold then the center opens

291
00:20:49,292 --> 00:20:54,912
up and you can mine the block uh fun little game but it was i mean it's got bugs like everything

292
00:20:54,912 --> 00:21:00,072
else that gets vibe coded but i don't have no idea what if that's on a relay i don't have no

293
00:21:00,072 --> 00:21:06,632
idea if that's on what server it's on i mean it but it was so easy to make i don't think you'll

294
00:21:06,632 --> 00:21:10,972
ever be able to track how many nostre apps there are because it's truly built on nostre

295
00:21:10,972 --> 00:21:20,212
yeah i think the explosion of vibe coding tools especially the some of the work alex gleason's

296
00:21:20,212 --> 00:21:27,352
doing not just with shakespeare there's mk stack before that right it's uh it's made it so that's

297
00:21:27,352 --> 00:21:33,292
that's what i built it on so shakespeare has you can choose which uh uh i don't even know what

298
00:21:33,292 --> 00:21:39,852
they call it what what engine you want to use and i i used i chose mk stacks for it so it's

299
00:21:39,852 --> 00:21:48,012
a simpleton like myself i got kind of far pretty quick just make sure you're not uh you're not

300
00:21:48,012 --> 00:21:49,492
You're not doing payments.

301
00:21:49,732 --> 00:21:53,672
You're not managing people's payments, QW, and personal data.

302
00:21:53,672 --> 00:21:57,132
I ended up putting too much in, and then I screwed the whole thing up,

303
00:21:57,252 --> 00:21:58,472
and then I rage quit.

304
00:21:58,652 --> 00:21:59,612
So that was it.

305
00:22:01,412 --> 00:22:01,892
Yeah.

306
00:22:02,252 --> 00:22:04,192
So, Milian, what do you attribute?

307
00:22:04,772 --> 00:22:08,692
It depends on how you look at it, the stats.

308
00:22:09,112 --> 00:22:13,552
There's either a plateau or a bit of a dip in the weekly active users.

309
00:22:13,932 --> 00:22:15,572
What do you attribute that to?

310
00:22:18,012 --> 00:22:24,112
Yeah, I think people usually go to stats.noster.band for these numbers,

311
00:22:24,112 --> 00:22:31,932
and I'm honestly not so sure how maintained that is and how accurate those numbers are.

312
00:22:33,312 --> 00:22:38,192
We did some quick numbers at Primal because, of course, we run our own indexer,

313
00:22:38,692 --> 00:22:47,332
and the type of downward sloping curve that's present on, you know, Noster band,

314
00:22:47,332 --> 00:22:54,972
that's not what we're seeing. Ours is kind of slightly upward sloping. So, but yeah, I'll

315
00:22:54,972 --> 00:22:59,972
concede that this is, that we've reached some sort of a plateau and we're growing slowly.

316
00:23:02,232 --> 00:23:11,072
It's kind of interesting. I think we've reached our initial audience. So people who are

317
00:23:11,072 --> 00:23:21,072
who are extremely interested in self sovereignty online, who are also Bitcoiners,

318
00:23:21,072 --> 00:23:32,204
and are willing to withstand some pain in terms of UX to deal with an early stage protocol like Noster I think we have that audience

319
00:23:32,204 --> 00:23:35,684
and they're quite happy where they are from what I can tell.

320
00:23:35,684 --> 00:23:36,604
They're not going anywhere.

321
00:23:36,604 --> 00:23:37,924
None of us are going anywhere.

322
00:23:37,924 --> 00:23:40,104
So we have this kind of phase one

323
00:23:41,984 --> 00:23:43,724
in the bag, so to speak.

324
00:23:44,904 --> 00:23:49,224
How to grow from here is an interesting question.

325
00:23:49,224 --> 00:23:50,684
We ponder it all the time.

326
00:23:51,224 --> 00:23:55,404
I think it's going to be the matter of building some killer app

327
00:23:55,404 --> 00:23:58,844
in addition to kind of improving the existing apps

328
00:23:58,844 --> 00:24:01,584
to make the onboarding smoother

329
00:24:01,584 --> 00:24:04,724
and kind of bring more content

330
00:24:04,724 --> 00:24:08,644
so that people that have that first experience

331
00:24:08,644 --> 00:24:14,864
getting onboarded and getting exposed to content on the roster

332
00:24:14,864 --> 00:24:16,304
get something interesting to see,

333
00:24:16,744 --> 00:24:20,644
which, by the way, is why we prioritize the Primal Studio

334
00:24:20,644 --> 00:24:25,804
this time because we want to make it easy for content creators to bring their content over.

335
00:24:26,764 --> 00:24:33,944
But I think if we zoom out, we need to be satisfied with what we've already accomplished.

336
00:24:34,504 --> 00:24:43,224
Because Noster was able to bootstrap the world's first network of cryptographic identities

337
00:24:43,224 --> 00:24:45,324
and the public web of trust.

338
00:24:45,624 --> 00:24:49,484
This is something that's been in the dream of cryptographers for decades.

339
00:24:49,484 --> 00:24:57,484
There have been so many attempts to bootstrap something like this, and we managed to do it.

340
00:24:57,484 --> 00:25:08,484
So the fact that Nostra exists, the fact that we have this public relay infrastructure that anyone can use and participate in this network,

341
00:25:08,484 --> 00:25:11,484
already is a massive accomplishment.

342
00:25:11,484 --> 00:25:16,484
I think Gigi had a note along those lines.

343
00:25:16,484 --> 00:25:18,484
We need to kind of take the wins, too.

344
00:25:18,484 --> 00:25:28,924
In addition to that, we already have the largest Bitcoin circular economy with millions of transactions kind of going through the network.

345
00:25:29,524 --> 00:25:31,284
These are not small accomplishments.

346
00:25:32,984 --> 00:25:36,024
But of course, we want more.

347
00:25:36,024 --> 00:25:47,264
And I think I'm like a Nostra permable, and I'm still of the mind that Nostra eventually captures everything just due to its openness.

348
00:25:47,264 --> 00:25:51,964
but I think it's going to be a long road.

349
00:25:52,304 --> 00:25:54,124
We're here ready for the grind

350
00:25:54,124 --> 00:26:00,424
and I think it involves bringing content creators over,

351
00:26:01,284 --> 00:26:03,244
providing the tools for them

352
00:26:03,244 --> 00:26:07,164
and ensuring that Nostar is the best place

353
00:26:07,164 --> 00:26:08,904
for content creators in the long run

354
00:26:08,904 --> 00:26:11,724
which I also think is going to be the case.

355
00:26:12,424 --> 00:26:13,764
So happy to take the conversation

356
00:26:13,764 --> 00:26:15,404
in any of those directions you wish.

357
00:26:15,404 --> 00:26:22,164
you know qw i i because you mentioned the largest circular economy dear

358
00:26:22,164 --> 00:26:28,044
did it maybe avi what what's your thoughts first does does nostr hold the world record for most

359
00:26:28,044 --> 00:26:35,724
bitcoin transactions in 24 hours i'm sure it does it's got to right it's got to in in 30 minutes in

360
00:26:35,724 --> 00:26:41,984
that zapathon i wouldn't be surprised but uh you know this what's reminded me of qw is our

361
00:26:41,984 --> 00:26:48,564
conversation last week with Nathan Day and BTC Map, which is, it seems like a chicken and egg

362
00:26:48,564 --> 00:26:55,944
situation on Bitcoin adoption, right? The merchants say they don't want to accept Bitcoin because

363
00:26:55,944 --> 00:26:59,784
there's no one who's going to pay in Bitcoin. And then you talk to the users and they say, well,

364
00:27:00,324 --> 00:27:04,024
we don't want to pay in Bitcoin because there's no one accepting Bitcoin. And I think the way you

365
00:27:04,024 --> 00:27:09,044
do it is you hammer, the way you break that cycle is you actually hammer merchant adoption.

366
00:27:09,684 --> 00:27:14,384
I think what, Milian, what you were saying sounds like it's a similar problem,

367
00:27:14,384 --> 00:27:17,624
which is similar chicken and egg.

368
00:27:17,724 --> 00:27:20,204
Well, the users aren't coming because there's not enough content.

369
00:27:20,724 --> 00:27:23,944
The creators aren't coming because there are not enough consumers of their content.

370
00:27:24,524 --> 00:27:30,404
And the way you break that cycle, sort of parallel or analogous to hammering merchant adoption

371
00:27:30,404 --> 00:27:37,404
on the BTC map side is hammering creator adoption and building better tools for them

372
00:27:37,404 --> 00:27:39,944
so that they bring in the users, the consumers.

373
00:27:42,084 --> 00:27:43,964
Yeah, that's the way we're looking at it.

374
00:27:44,144 --> 00:27:46,564
And that's why we prioritized Primal Studio,

375
00:27:46,744 --> 00:27:50,004
which, by the way, going back a few months,

376
00:27:50,324 --> 00:27:53,184
that was on our roadmap for next year.

377
00:27:54,044 --> 00:27:55,944
Primal Studio was supposed to be kind of

378
00:27:55,944 --> 00:27:58,864
second half of 2026 product for us.

379
00:27:59,504 --> 00:28:02,804
And then we started working with some content creators,

380
00:28:02,804 --> 00:28:05,044
some people with Substacks and so forth.

381
00:28:05,044 --> 00:28:12,984
And it was obvious how sorely lacking the tools are for these content creators.

382
00:28:13,264 --> 00:28:18,084
And there is a cohort of content creators who are quite curious about Noster,

383
00:28:18,304 --> 00:28:24,664
who like the value proposition of being finally sovereign on a network

384
00:28:24,664 --> 00:28:29,044
and being able to earn sats directly.

385
00:28:29,044 --> 00:28:35,744
Those are very attractive attributes to a content creator.

386
00:28:36,224 --> 00:28:40,064
Yes, the audience is currently small but growing, hopefully.

387
00:28:40,984 --> 00:28:55,704
So this is a reasonable pitch that I think enough content creators would be interested in for this to kind of start this onboarding wave.

388
00:28:55,704 --> 00:29:03,844
but the tools that we were able to offer them at the time were just not embarrassing honestly

389
00:29:03,844 --> 00:29:13,864
so I decided to switch gears a little bit and you know focus on Primal Studio for a few months

390
00:29:13,864 --> 00:29:24,684
in fact BTC Prague was coming up and I ended up booking a main stage announcement slot

391
00:29:24,684 --> 00:29:28,684
there prior to us even starting to code the product.

392
00:29:30,384 --> 00:29:34,444
So there's one way to put a gun to your head.

393
00:29:35,224 --> 00:29:36,864
Yes, like we're burning the ships.

394
00:29:37,164 --> 00:29:39,004
We're going to build this and launch it.

395
00:29:39,004 --> 00:29:44,724
You know, we had already made a pretty detailed plan

396
00:29:44,724 --> 00:29:46,044
of how this would play out.

397
00:29:46,224 --> 00:29:48,084
But of course, there's always risk

398
00:29:48,084 --> 00:29:50,364
when building products like this.

399
00:29:51,044 --> 00:29:52,924
But yeah, it kept everybody sharp.

400
00:29:52,924 --> 00:30:01,884
and it also made us decide very precisely what the MVP was,

401
00:30:01,984 --> 00:30:03,784
what the minimum viable product is,

402
00:30:04,464 --> 00:30:09,084
and prioritize all the kind of crucial features,

403
00:30:09,744 --> 00:30:14,004
get them in a good enough state so that we can ship version 1.0,

404
00:30:14,384 --> 00:30:18,124
and from here we are supposed to iterate forever.

405
00:30:18,484 --> 00:30:20,304
Basically, this is a new product line

406
00:30:20,304 --> 00:30:22,944
that we're just going to continue building

407
00:30:22,944 --> 00:30:25,244
just like our consumer apps.

408
00:30:27,104 --> 00:30:30,004
So what I'm hearing is our good friend Kondalorian

409
00:30:30,004 --> 00:30:33,824
has been rugged on his GIF keyboard yet again.

410
00:30:33,944 --> 00:30:35,204
You're about to do it, Milyan,

411
00:30:35,784 --> 00:30:37,924
but you pulled something in from 2026,

412
00:30:38,064 --> 00:30:40,584
second half of 2026, into the roadmap,

413
00:30:40,804 --> 00:30:43,704
and you moved GIF keyboard to second half of 2026.

414
00:30:44,284 --> 00:30:44,764
Did I get that right?

415
00:30:44,764 --> 00:30:46,524
That was precisely the trade-off.

416
00:30:46,524 --> 00:30:56,424
we'll get into more detail on primal studio in a bit uh but uh you know i think the last time we

417
00:30:56,424 --> 00:31:04,684
had you on which is may of uh last year episode 61 of pleb chain radio and we're on 121 we just

418
00:31:04,684 --> 00:31:12,564
missed if you'd come on 122 million we would have been sort of doubling right uh but anyway uh you

419
00:31:12,564 --> 00:31:18,064
I think we talked then about Primal's branding as the social Bitcoin wallet, right?

420
00:31:18,164 --> 00:31:23,164
Is that still how you're branding yourself or have you changed the messaging?

421
00:31:24,124 --> 00:31:25,884
We've changed the messaging a little bit.

422
00:31:25,984 --> 00:31:30,324
We decided to go a little bit more high level and just go with live free.

423
00:31:33,484 --> 00:31:35,664
The meaning of Primal, the meaning of life.

424
00:31:35,844 --> 00:31:37,244
Might as well, right? The highest level.

425
00:31:37,244 --> 00:31:43,624
The reason why I chose primal is because it's our true nature to be free.

426
00:31:43,864 --> 00:31:45,864
That's what primal means to us.

427
00:31:47,744 --> 00:31:50,644
I don't know if it's serendipity, Milian,

428
00:31:50,964 --> 00:31:55,244
but the brand and everything around it just seems to...

429
00:31:56,084 --> 00:32:00,084
I mean, from the outside, it does appear like wonderful serendipity

430
00:32:00,084 --> 00:32:04,484
because it's primal, it's about life, it's the basic essence of life.

431
00:32:04,484 --> 00:32:16,764
And then you have the Pura Vida culture, which is sort of front and center in the branding of Primal through, you know, Paul and others in the jungle, in the Primal house in Costa Rica.

432
00:32:17,104 --> 00:32:22,064
So was this all an elaborate plan or a series of happy accidents?

433
00:32:23,604 --> 00:32:26,084
No, you can't really plan stuff like this.

434
00:32:26,084 --> 00:32:32,444
there are so many happy accidents or synchronicities all over the place

435
00:32:32,444 --> 00:32:36,664
you know from from day one and they still keep happening we

436
00:32:36,664 --> 00:32:40,584
we sort of we are discovering them more than just

437
00:32:40,584 --> 00:32:47,544
coming up with them right love it so what's changed i know

438
00:32:47,544 --> 00:32:52,044
may 2024 is a long time to throw your memory back to but

439
00:32:52,044 --> 00:32:56,024
any significant changes and we'll get to studio in a second

440
00:32:56,024 --> 00:32:59,104
but outside of that, from Primal's perspective?

441
00:33:00,464 --> 00:33:01,104
Right.

442
00:33:01,284 --> 00:33:06,864
So May last year, we were probably just starting to work on our 2.0 release.

443
00:33:07,564 --> 00:33:12,824
So at that time, we already had shipped the integrated wallet.

444
00:33:13,624 --> 00:33:18,804
Basically, Primal at that point was Twitter cloned with an integrated Bitcoin wallet,

445
00:33:19,564 --> 00:33:21,964
if we're kind of to summarize it like that.

446
00:33:21,964 --> 00:33:29,964
What I'm interested in in general is kind of more nuanced, long-form content.

447
00:33:29,964 --> 00:33:40,964
I'm interested in content that has more signal that's less fluffy, less frivolous than the usual social media feeds that people scroll through.

448
00:33:40,964 --> 00:33:49,964
In fact, I think Noster has the potential to become the network where you really go for high signal content.

449
00:33:49,964 --> 00:33:56,624
content. Maybe in addition to kind of it being open and supporting all different content types,

450
00:33:57,404 --> 00:34:08,604
also the monetization kind of methods that are likely to succeed on Noster are way different,

451
00:34:08,604 --> 00:34:16,424
and they're likely not to be heavily based on advertising. So going back to May last year,

452
00:34:16,424 --> 00:34:26,744
the reason I brought this up is that we decided to incorporate long form textual content into Primal.

453
00:34:26,744 --> 00:34:31,624
And we didn't want to do that in a small way, we wanted to do that in a big way.

454
00:34:31,624 --> 00:34:41,704
So we wanted to provide the same level of UX and maybe even exceed the UX of the established players like Medium and Substack.

455
00:34:41,704 --> 00:34:55,604
So we were just starting to work on 2.0 in addition to long form articles, which kind of got their own dedicated tab and the whole dedicated section for articles.

456
00:34:55,904 --> 00:35:16,475
We also were working on advanced search feeds so custom feeds that you can define and kind of have a feed gallery and so forth So it was like quite an elaborate release that took us in retrospect probably way too long

457
00:35:17,456 --> 00:35:19,675
So we ended up releasing it in November,

458
00:35:19,675 --> 00:35:24,675
but we were heads down on Primal 2.0 back in May last year.

459
00:35:27,916 --> 00:35:32,916
So yeah, that release got shipped by NLT.

460
00:35:34,335 --> 00:35:43,376
of November and yeah we were now kind of working on Primal 3.0 and in parallel on Primal Studio.

461
00:35:46,015 --> 00:35:54,335
So Primal Studio what what's your general roadmap? Maybe talk about what kind of the features today

462
00:35:54,335 --> 00:35:59,376
and then maybe something that is maybe the holy grail looking forward.

463
00:35:59,376 --> 00:36:06,775
We want Noster to be the best place for content creators, as I mentioned previously.

464
00:36:07,775 --> 00:36:16,416
So part of that is providing kind of very high-end, easy-to-use and powerful tools for them.

465
00:36:17,095 --> 00:36:20,376
So that's the idea behind Primal Studio, quite simple.

466
00:36:21,235 --> 00:36:28,335
The initial release that we shipped last month has enough kind of to get started.

467
00:36:28,335 --> 00:36:40,215
So essentially, we have more elaborate authoring tools than what you would find on Primal.net for kind of as free consumer tools.

468
00:36:40,975 --> 00:36:45,815
And in this first release, we're focusing on notes and articles.

469
00:36:46,755 --> 00:36:51,015
So those are the content types that you can author in Primal Studio.

470
00:36:51,015 --> 00:37:01,015
but you get more control over those types of artifacts.

471
00:37:01,015 --> 00:37:10,015
So for example, they both have what you see is what you get kind of WYSIWYG views as well as code views.

472
00:37:10,015 --> 00:37:19,015
Then you can have previews. You can preview what your content will look like on the phone or on the desktop browser or in the feeds.

473
00:37:19,015 --> 00:37:22,755
reads, those types of things that are quite useful, right?

474
00:37:22,755 --> 00:37:27,275
Like if you're content creators, you don't want to publish something and then get surprised

475
00:37:27,275 --> 00:37:33,235
by the way it renders on the phone and have to kind of redo, maybe delete or update and

476
00:37:33,235 --> 00:37:34,275
so forth.

477
00:37:34,275 --> 00:37:41,235
So we're kind of trying to make that process more seamless.

478
00:37:41,235 --> 00:37:49,815
So importing capabilities, so people who do long form content in terms of essays and blogs

479
00:37:49,815 --> 00:37:57,255
and so forth, articles, currently most of that content exists on legacy platforms like

480
00:37:57,255 --> 00:38:00,155
Substack and Medium and Ghost and so forth.

481
00:38:00,155 --> 00:38:05,635
So we're making it easy to import your content from all of those platforms if that's what

482
00:38:05,635 --> 00:38:08,696
you're using currently.

483
00:38:08,696 --> 00:38:14,975
And then the type of things like scheduled publishing is something that's fairly obviously

484
00:38:14,975 --> 00:38:15,975
is needed.

485
00:38:15,975 --> 00:38:20,015
So you're able to create your content and schedule it for publishing at a time that

486
00:38:20,015 --> 00:38:23,655
kind of makes more sense for your audience.

487
00:38:23,655 --> 00:38:26,175
Then also we have team collaboration.

488
00:38:26,175 --> 00:38:36,956
So you can, in fact, this particular feature is something that incited the creation of

489
00:38:36,956 --> 00:38:43,835
Primal Studio at this particular time. We wanted to help some authors create,

490
00:38:43,835 --> 00:38:50,275
bring their content over to Noster, and what we wanted to do is do some work for

491
00:38:50,275 --> 00:38:56,095
them, you know, prepare all of these articles, their own content, in a way

492
00:38:56,095 --> 00:38:59,936
that's ready to publish and then get them to log in and sign with their key

493
00:38:59,936 --> 00:39:04,975
and publish it. And there just wasn't a good tool for this that would kind of

494
00:39:04,975 --> 00:39:09,735
have a very seamless flow to enable this.

495
00:39:09,735 --> 00:39:14,615
So at the moment I was trying to figure this out

496
00:39:14,615 --> 00:39:17,575
for a particular author that we wanted to bring on,

497
00:39:17,575 --> 00:39:21,476
I decided, okay, we're building the whole thing right now.

498
00:39:21,476 --> 00:39:24,416
So that's essentially one of the features

499
00:39:24,416 --> 00:39:29,416
that instigated the building of Studio right now.

500
00:39:30,075 --> 00:39:33,775
So to kind of describe this feature in a bit more detail,

501
00:39:34,976 --> 00:39:38,035
when you work in a team, let's say in a company,

502
00:39:38,035 --> 00:39:40,876
you don't want to give your private key,

503
00:39:40,876 --> 00:39:44,195
your corporate private key to your intern

504
00:39:44,195 --> 00:39:47,575
to post social media posts, right?

505
00:39:48,876 --> 00:39:52,315
So there are some kind of workarounds for that

506
00:39:52,315 --> 00:39:54,976
with NSC bunker and so forth,

507
00:39:54,976 --> 00:39:57,936
but essentially there isn't a good solution out there.

508
00:39:57,936 --> 00:40:02,936
So what Primal Studio enables you to do is within a team,

509
00:40:02,936 --> 00:40:07,936
a team member can log into Primal Studio, prepare all the content,

510
00:40:07,936 --> 00:40:12,936
and then send it to another Noster account.

511
00:40:12,936 --> 00:40:16,936
Let's say I can prepare an article under my account

512
00:40:16,936 --> 00:40:19,936
and I send it to the main Primal account.

513
00:40:19,936 --> 00:40:25,936
And then whoever controls the Primal account private key can log in.

514
00:40:25,936 --> 00:40:28,936
They'll see the proposed content in the inbox.

515
00:40:28,936 --> 00:40:30,936
They can take a look.

516
00:40:30,936 --> 00:40:33,595
If everything looks good, they can sign and publish.

517
00:40:34,615 --> 00:40:37,995
So this is the flow that's supported in Studio

518
00:40:37,995 --> 00:40:40,595
very easily sort of out of the box.

519
00:40:41,215 --> 00:40:43,896
Melian, could I ask you on that one?

520
00:40:44,135 --> 00:40:47,635
Did you have to write a new NIP for that delegation process?

521
00:40:48,476 --> 00:40:49,436
No, we didn't.

522
00:40:49,515 --> 00:40:52,335
Actually, this is something that Pablo had already figured out

523
00:40:52,335 --> 00:40:55,555
as a part of Highlighter.

524
00:40:56,916 --> 00:40:59,856
So both for this and kind of for scheduling,

525
00:40:59,856 --> 00:41:04,795
we leaned on the spec that Pablo already had put together.

526
00:41:05,436 --> 00:41:11,416
And in fact, all these features are interoperable with Highlighter.

527
00:41:12,075 --> 00:41:18,456
So if you, let's say, use Primal Studio to create an article proposal

528
00:41:18,456 --> 00:41:19,976
and send it to another NPUB,

529
00:41:21,215 --> 00:41:26,255
if you log into Highlighter with that target account,

530
00:41:26,755 --> 00:41:28,155
you will see the proposal there.

531
00:41:28,155 --> 00:41:31,495
so we're just basically encrypting

532
00:41:31,495 --> 00:41:33,835
articles to the

533
00:41:33,835 --> 00:41:35,115
recipients

534
00:41:35,115 --> 00:41:37,655
mpub using

535
00:41:37,655 --> 00:41:39,376
you know regular

536
00:41:39,376 --> 00:41:41,295
encryption methods

537
00:41:41,295 --> 00:41:43,456
for Noster and we're publishing this

538
00:41:43,456 --> 00:41:45,456
to relays so there isn't anything

539
00:41:45,456 --> 00:41:46,675
proprietary about this

540
00:41:46,675 --> 00:41:49,635
Gotcha

541
00:41:49,635 --> 00:41:51,275
but carry on

542
00:41:51,275 --> 00:41:53,555
you were talking about the primal roadmap

543
00:41:53,555 --> 00:41:55,515
and you were making your way

544
00:41:55,515 --> 00:41:57,495
you said so you'd come to delegation

545
00:41:57,495 --> 00:42:06,255
right so we have all of this and then we have um media management so that's built right into

546
00:42:06,255 --> 00:42:11,595
primal studio so uh you for those of you who are familiar with the blossom protocol

547
00:42:11,595 --> 00:42:18,295
for um media hosting in a kind of self-sovereign decentralized way

548
00:42:18,295 --> 00:42:26,295
uh primal studio includes a blossom media manager essentially so blossom is an open

549
00:42:26,295 --> 00:42:34,275
protocol that essentially utilizes Noster to solve this decentralized media hosting

550
00:42:34,275 --> 00:42:42,575
problem. It's quite a simple and elegant solution, much like Noster itself. But it's an open

551
00:42:42,575 --> 00:42:52,195
protocol just like Noster. And we adopted it at Primal a few months ago. As of a few months ago,

552
00:42:52,195 --> 00:42:55,195
all Primal clients natively support Blossom.

553
00:42:55,195 --> 00:42:59,195
So when you upload images or videos in any of our clients,

554
00:42:59,195 --> 00:43:04,195
they are uploaded to our Blossom server.

555
00:43:04,195 --> 00:43:10,195
And you can, in your settings, decide to upload them to any other Blossom server

556
00:43:10,195 --> 00:43:16,195
and or do mirroring of uploads to other Blossom servers.

557
00:43:16,195 --> 00:43:22,195
So for example, you can have a setup where all your uploads go to the Primal server,

558
00:43:22,195 --> 00:43:28,775
Blossom server and then get automatically mirrored to Blossom.band, for example,

559
00:43:29,376 --> 00:43:31,856
or any Blossom server of your choice.

560
00:43:31,856 --> 00:43:38,275
So you automatically get backups of all your Blossom media uploads.

561
00:43:38,735 --> 00:43:39,535
So that's kind of cool.

562
00:43:39,715 --> 00:43:41,135
Blossom itself is excellent.

563
00:43:41,755 --> 00:43:49,075
And we decided to make it easier to manage all your media uploads in one place.

564
00:43:49,075 --> 00:43:53,695
So you can do that by going to the media tab within Primal Studio.

565
00:43:54,295 --> 00:44:02,396
And you can manage your uploads to the Primal media server or any other Blossom supporting media server.

566
00:44:02,755 --> 00:44:03,476
So that's kind of cool.

567
00:44:04,936 --> 00:44:07,175
And then last but not least, we have analytics.

568
00:44:08,195 --> 00:44:18,916
So the homepage of Primal Studio gives you this kind of analytics dashboard where you can select a time range.

569
00:44:19,075 --> 00:44:27,115
and then will give you the kind of the trending of your content over time in terms of reach and impact and so forth.

570
00:44:27,715 --> 00:44:41,956
So you will see your top notes, top articles for the selected range, along with the breakdown of all of the kind of content scores and number of replies and zaps and even zaps delta.

571
00:44:42,195 --> 00:44:47,976
For example, you can see for the selected range, you've sent this many zaps, you've received this many zaps.

572
00:44:47,976 --> 00:44:54,755
so here's your zaps delta in terms of number of zaps and sets so you can see if you're up or down

573
00:44:54,755 --> 00:45:01,775
for three months or whatnot um but what's how do you how do you get to those analytics um because

574
00:45:01,775 --> 00:45:08,976
if i let's say pull up a no stir and i'm on some relays and then i pull and i look at i got you

575
00:45:08,976 --> 00:45:14,055
know this many reposts this many likes this many zaps but then i go to primal and then i have

576
00:45:14,055 --> 00:45:19,416
different analytics uh you know some the same ballpark but it's just a little different

577
00:45:19,416 --> 00:45:26,876
uh where do you where do you draw those analytics from so we run an indexer of the entire nostr

578
00:45:26,876 --> 00:45:35,495
network so we attempt to connect to all of the publicly accessible relays and uh collect all of

579
00:45:35,495 --> 00:45:41,175
the events that are publicly accessible and all those relays so i think you mentioned nostour

580
00:45:41,175 --> 00:45:52,135
If I understand Nostur's architecture well, it is a kind of client-centric Nostur app that works directly with relays.

581
00:45:52,575 --> 00:45:56,835
But it can only connect to, it will connect to the relays that you specify.

582
00:45:57,775 --> 00:46:02,916
Usually people have a handful of relays, maybe half a dozen or a dozen relays.

583
00:46:02,916 --> 00:46:18,595
So probably the stats that you see in NOS2 are based on the numbers they received from those relays, whereas we attempt to index the entire NOS2 network.

584
00:46:18,595 --> 00:46:29,956
On the relays, and I'm kind of going off chart here because I was kind of looking at my relays.

585
00:46:30,635 --> 00:46:35,595
Tell me about the premium.primal.net versus the relay.primal.net.

586
00:46:36,635 --> 00:46:38,476
Is there any benefit to it?

587
00:46:39,476 --> 00:46:39,856
Yes.

588
00:46:40,115 --> 00:46:43,755
So relay.primal.net is our public relay.

589
00:46:43,755 --> 00:46:48,896
And for context, yeah, this is the premium one is for the the legend,

590
00:46:49,155 --> 00:46:52,396
the legend, the premium primal to standard.

591
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:53,287
client users.

592
00:46:54,327 --> 00:46:54,427
Yeah.

593
00:46:54,927 --> 00:46:58,087
So premium.primal.net, sorry, backing up,

594
00:46:58,427 --> 00:47:01,687
relay.primal.net is our public relay

595
00:47:01,687 --> 00:47:03,527
that anyone can connect to

596
00:47:03,527 --> 00:47:09,307
and anyone can post, you know, content to.

597
00:47:09,907 --> 00:47:12,147
So it's one of the bigger relays

598
00:47:12,147 --> 00:47:14,407
where there's a ton of spam in there.

599
00:47:14,407 --> 00:47:18,247
We don't do a lot of kind of spam mitigation.

600
00:47:18,647 --> 00:47:20,947
We kind of accept all the events

601
00:47:20,947 --> 00:47:27,187
that get posted and kind of try to make sense of them later.

602
00:47:27,487 --> 00:47:29,627
So it's kind of a free-for-all relay.

603
00:47:30,687 --> 00:47:34,547
Sometimes it gets really bombarded with a lot of content

604
00:47:34,547 --> 00:47:36,747
and it slows down.

605
00:47:36,907 --> 00:47:38,187
Actually, in the last couple of days,

606
00:47:38,267 --> 00:47:42,347
we had some issues where requests would take a few seconds

607
00:47:42,347 --> 00:47:43,927
and we, of course, don't like that.

608
00:47:44,187 --> 00:47:46,387
It needs to be faster than that.

609
00:47:46,447 --> 00:47:48,767
But those are the realities when you are dealing

610
00:47:48,767 --> 00:47:52,867
with like a public facing relays which is very, very open.

611
00:47:54,547 --> 00:48:00,567
In contrast, premium.primal.net is a relay only for our paid users.

612
00:48:00,567 --> 00:48:08,187
So people who either are on our premium tier or the recently introduced Primal Pro tier.

613
00:48:08,947 --> 00:48:12,207
So now we're talking orders of magnitude fewer users.

614
00:48:12,447 --> 00:48:13,747
So these are our paying customers.

615
00:48:13,747 --> 00:48:21,687
So only they are able to post content to premium.primal.net, but anyone is able to read.

616
00:48:22,507 --> 00:48:27,367
So as a consequence, this relay is much more reliable.

617
00:48:28,247 --> 00:48:37,907
It has much higher signal because spammers don't pay $7 a month to be able to post from an AMP hub.

618
00:48:42,287 --> 00:48:43,607
Good, good, good.

619
00:48:43,747 --> 00:48:50,367
I was just, I was generally curious because I'm, I'm on both relays and relays can be confusing to,

620
00:48:50,367 --> 00:48:55,387
to, you know, newcomers and they're the, you know, you'd be on 45 relays and your, your,

621
00:48:55,467 --> 00:49:01,767
your internet service provider sends you an email saying you just maxed out your monthly and it's

622
00:49:01,767 --> 00:49:06,847
day seven or something. So yeah, it's, it's interesting, but quality over quantity is,

623
00:49:06,847 --> 00:49:14,847
is the way so um going back to the uh the the primal um uh the the studio not to be confused

624
00:49:14,847 --> 00:49:20,847
with primal game studio uh if you're if you google it uh primal studio.primal.net

625
00:49:20,847 --> 00:49:30,127
talk about the the cost of the tiers and um where the value is right so we have uh this is the new

626
00:49:30,127 --> 00:49:36,707
but essentially pro tier that we've launched with primal studio uh that essentially for those of a

627
00:49:36,707 --> 00:49:43,267
you who are familiar with our kind of legend tier which was introduced back in November

628
00:49:44,387 --> 00:49:50,387
which was actually quite popular you know especially like the first few months with

629
00:49:50,387 --> 00:49:56,627
many people signed up for the legend tier and then it tapered off and we got surprised by how popular

630
00:49:56,627 --> 00:50:05,427
that was. Essentially what we did with the launch of Primal Studio we introduced the new

631
00:50:05,427 --> 00:50:14,507
pro tier and then we rolled this legend capability within the Primal clients into the pro tier.

632
00:50:15,107 --> 00:50:21,847
So the pro tier now includes the access to Primal Studio and all of the pro tools that we'll be

633
00:50:21,847 --> 00:50:30,967
building as time goes and this kind of higher level of visibility and recognition on all primal

634
00:50:30,967 --> 00:50:36,507
clients which is the legend tier that is now part of the pro tier so i hope this is not too confusing

635
00:50:36,507 --> 00:50:44,827
and then uh those people who by the way the pro tier was like a lifetime tier uh and so what we

636
00:50:44,827 --> 00:50:52,187
did is for all legend users we gave them a lifetime subscription of primal pro so they get

637
00:50:52,187 --> 00:50:58,327
they don't you know they get everything they had previously plus access to all of the pro tools

638
00:50:58,327 --> 00:51:09,387
they were building what is the next well i think that by the way that did make sense but it can

639
00:51:09,387 --> 00:51:13,127
And also, it's easy also to get lost in.

640
00:51:13,207 --> 00:51:15,287
Pro became Legend, or Legend became Pro,

641
00:51:15,447 --> 00:51:19,027
but there's a plus, little extras there with Primal Studio.

642
00:51:20,087 --> 00:51:23,627
That's what our show's here for, right, Avi, to dissect this?

643
00:51:23,747 --> 00:51:25,547
Yeah, exactly.

644
00:51:26,187 --> 00:51:31,867
So you said, Milian, you've started off with authors, right?

645
00:51:31,867 --> 00:51:33,307
It's more written content,

646
00:51:33,707 --> 00:51:38,687
and you're trying to get it to the standard of Ghost

647
00:51:38,687 --> 00:51:43,087
or any one of those where you have rich text editing.

648
00:51:44,447 --> 00:51:46,687
And by the way, as someone who's used Promise Studio,

649
00:51:46,807 --> 00:51:48,607
I think it's pretty much there, right?

650
00:51:48,627 --> 00:51:53,107
It's very easy to use, excellent user experience

651
00:51:53,107 --> 00:51:54,847
as someone who posts articles.

652
00:51:55,707 --> 00:51:57,707
So that's the starting point, right?

653
00:51:57,707 --> 00:51:59,467
You're targeting creators who are writers.

654
00:52:00,327 --> 00:52:04,767
What tranche of creators are next on your roadmap?

655
00:52:04,767 --> 00:52:11,647
up? So what we're starting to get into, and this might take some time, so I'm not going to make any

656
00:52:11,647 --> 00:52:19,047
promises in terms of timelines, but of course what we would like to see flourish on Noster is

657
00:52:19,047 --> 00:52:26,627
long-form video content. So these video tools need to be there, need to be present for content

658
00:52:26,627 --> 00:52:36,407
creators and in terms of kind of the consumption user experience for consumers, the UX needs to be

659
00:52:36,407 --> 00:52:43,147
amazing for within the apps as well. So this is broadly speaking kind of the next big area that

660
00:52:43,147 --> 00:52:51,327
we're attacking within Primal and I know there's a barrage of questions coming in to start with a

661
00:52:51,327 --> 00:52:53,067
when. So

662
00:52:53,067 --> 00:52:55,027
can't really talk about timelines

663
00:52:55,027 --> 00:52:56,847
yet.

664
00:52:58,067 --> 00:52:59,147
We'll talk about the what

665
00:52:59,147 --> 00:53:00,347
then, Milian.

666
00:53:01,227 --> 00:53:03,287
No, but before we talk about the what,

667
00:53:03,467 --> 00:53:05,147
when? No, I'm kidding.

668
00:53:07,147 --> 00:53:09,167
Every developer loves

669
00:53:09,167 --> 00:53:11,187
every question that starts

670
00:53:11,187 --> 00:53:13,067
with a when, especially after

671
00:53:13,067 --> 00:53:15,107
shipping and release. Oh, when

672
00:53:15,107 --> 00:53:15,947
is the next thing?

673
00:53:17,067 --> 00:53:18,547
Yeah, exactly.

674
00:53:19,767 --> 00:53:20,927
So are you thinking

675
00:53:20,927 --> 00:53:22,927
more when you say long

676
00:53:22,927 --> 00:53:24,687
form video sort of a

677
00:53:24,687 --> 00:53:26,207
YouTube competitor

678
00:53:26,207 --> 00:53:28,387
or are you thinking more

679
00:53:28,387 --> 00:53:29,947
Netflix style?

680
00:53:35,387 --> 00:53:36,687
That's a good question

681
00:53:36,687 --> 00:53:38,727
and I don't know if you were there during

682
00:53:38,727 --> 00:53:40,807
the announcement of Private Mail Studio in

683
00:53:40,807 --> 00:53:42,587
Prague. I was.

684
00:53:43,147 --> 00:53:44,787
Okay, so you remember I

685
00:53:44,787 --> 00:53:46,647
started off with a little two minute

686
00:53:46,647 --> 00:53:48,307
video clip by Gigi.

687
00:53:48,727 --> 00:53:50,627
Gigi, yes. Yes, where

688
00:53:50,627 --> 00:53:52,667
he masterfully

689
00:53:52,667 --> 00:53:54,527
kind of dissects

690
00:53:54,527 --> 00:53:55,607
the

691
00:53:55,607 --> 00:53:56,587
kind of

692
00:53:56,587 --> 00:53:57,287
the

693
00:53:57,287 --> 00:53:59,767
situation we're in

694
00:53:59,767 --> 00:54:01,667
as humanity

695
00:54:01,667 --> 00:54:03,747
where our kind of

696
00:54:03,747 --> 00:54:05,227
eyeballs are being harvested

697
00:54:05,227 --> 00:54:08,107
because the internet needs to

698
00:54:08,107 --> 00:54:10,007
monetize itself and the only

699
00:54:10,007 --> 00:54:10,987
monetization

700
00:54:10,987 --> 00:54:13,207
kind of

701
00:54:13,207 --> 00:54:16,107
method that worked

702
00:54:16,107 --> 00:54:17,947
so far was advertising

703
00:54:17,947 --> 00:54:19,287
so

704
00:54:19,287 --> 00:54:29,567
So when you play that out, you end up in this predicament we're in right now, which is kind of you're catering to the lowest common denominator.

705
00:54:30,267 --> 00:54:39,207
You're kind of you you need to be build kind of slot machines for the brain is to maximize your profit.

706
00:54:39,207 --> 00:55:05,387
And I think YouTube is, to an extent, a part of that, where there are some kind of platforms that are maybe more kind of high consciousness types of events or high consciousness types of content that creators are making,

707
00:55:05,387 --> 00:55:12,467
where people subscribe ahead of time for content,

708
00:55:12,467 --> 00:55:15,907
and then you don't see the patterns that typically,

709
00:55:16,227 --> 00:55:17,967
the kind of the dark patterns that you see

710
00:55:17,967 --> 00:55:23,467
in these advertising-based content platforms.

711
00:55:24,307 --> 00:55:28,907
And usually the content itself is much higher signal.

712
00:55:30,227 --> 00:55:32,347
So this is what I find interesting.

713
00:55:32,347 --> 00:55:38,407
and we would like to cater to that class of creators.

714
00:55:39,547 --> 00:55:43,207
Probably, you know, it's not really a mass market necessarily.

715
00:55:43,507 --> 00:55:45,027
Eventually it might become,

716
00:55:45,547 --> 00:55:49,287
but to put all of the incentives in place

717
00:55:49,287 --> 00:55:52,007
to create high quality content

718
00:55:52,007 --> 00:55:55,707
and really kind of engage with the audience

719
00:55:55,707 --> 00:55:57,987
on kind of honest terms.

720
00:55:59,107 --> 00:56:01,547
So this is kind of the vision that I have

721
00:56:01,547 --> 00:56:05,827
for Primal Studio and then Primal and maybe Noster as a whole

722
00:56:05,827 --> 00:56:10,667
could become a place where people go to for high-quality content.

723
00:56:11,687 --> 00:56:16,847
How would that interoperate with the rest of Noster?

724
00:56:17,607 --> 00:56:22,787
Obviously, you haven't described any architecture in detail here,

725
00:56:22,907 --> 00:56:24,127
and it's just an idea, right?

726
00:56:24,287 --> 00:56:26,787
But if you're talking about, and by the way,

727
00:56:26,967 --> 00:56:29,747
huge fan of that, taking things in that direction,

728
00:56:29,747 --> 00:56:33,307
which is higher consciousness type content

729
00:56:33,307 --> 00:56:37,187
where people are absolutely willing to pay up front to consume it

730
00:56:37,187 --> 00:56:39,307
because they know the signal is going to be high

731
00:56:39,307 --> 00:56:43,187
and it is a much smaller niche, clearly, right?

732
00:56:43,867 --> 00:56:46,147
You said slot machines,

733
00:56:46,287 --> 00:56:49,867
but we might as well call brains slop machines at this point

734
00:56:49,867 --> 00:56:52,727
because that's what most consumptions become.

735
00:56:52,987 --> 00:56:53,947
It's just slop.

736
00:56:53,947 --> 00:56:59,287
and that's just a direct response

737
00:56:59,287 --> 00:57:01,427
to the advertising

738
00:57:01,427 --> 00:57:03,507
driven algorithm

739
00:57:03,507 --> 00:57:05,267
it's the eyeball harvesting

740
00:57:05,267 --> 00:57:06,747
that's leading people to

741
00:57:06,747 --> 00:57:08,707
all make uniform content

742
00:57:08,707 --> 00:57:09,667
that's all the same

743
00:57:09,667 --> 00:57:11,307
by the way happening in Bitcoin too

744
00:57:11,307 --> 00:57:13,167
with all the NGU stuff

745
00:57:13,167 --> 00:57:15,427
that's Bitcoin's version of slop

746
00:57:15,427 --> 00:57:17,507
that's happening

747
00:57:17,507 --> 00:57:18,587
but that said

748
00:57:18,587 --> 00:57:21,747
how would you build

749
00:57:21,747 --> 00:57:23,027
something like that

750
00:57:23,027 --> 00:57:31,467
within Primal in a way that is, let's say, in keeping with the ethos of NOSTA,

751
00:57:31,547 --> 00:57:34,827
which is it's also accessible in other clients.

752
00:57:36,167 --> 00:57:36,767
Oh, absolutely.

753
00:57:37,247 --> 00:57:39,807
And we don't need to do anything special there.

754
00:57:39,947 --> 00:57:41,307
The specs are already there.

755
00:57:41,427 --> 00:57:44,307
The nips already exist for everything that I just mentioned.

756
00:57:44,967 --> 00:57:48,627
For long-form content, for paid subscription tiers,

757
00:57:48,627 --> 00:57:54,887
all of the things that I mentioned can be done in an open way that's standardized through NIPs

758
00:57:54,887 --> 00:58:01,167
and in fact like I said those NIPs already exist so there isn't a lot of new stuff that needs to be

759
00:58:01,167 --> 00:58:09,847
invented we just need to build high quality experiences around all of these specs for both

760
00:58:09,847 --> 00:58:17,367
creators and consumers and then we need to stand up services that are kind of reliable

761
00:58:17,367 --> 00:58:24,967
and have the infrastructure kind of that's not going to go down and is going to be competitive

762
00:58:24,967 --> 00:58:28,227
with the legacy centralized platforms.

763
00:58:28,227 --> 00:58:42,379
This is the role of Primal That the way I looking at it We just recognize parts of Noster that we find interesting and where we find the content types are taking off

764
00:58:43,139 --> 00:58:46,659
And then we build great experiences around them

765
00:58:46,659 --> 00:58:54,119
and stand up infrastructure to make those experiences reliable.

766
00:58:55,159 --> 00:58:57,299
This is really the work that needs to get done.

767
00:58:57,299 --> 00:59:03,799
And, you know, a lot of times it's overwhelming because everything needs to be built.

768
00:59:05,319 --> 00:59:07,039
But we're here for it.

769
00:59:08,579 --> 00:59:11,099
I think that will be a big one, Malian.

770
00:59:11,779 --> 00:59:20,599
People being able to post high-quality video content on Nostra in a way that allows their work to be honored,

771
00:59:20,599 --> 00:59:23,039
right assuming it is high quality

772
00:59:23,039 --> 00:59:25,039
to be honored

773
00:59:25,039 --> 00:59:25,539
and valued

774
00:59:25,539 --> 00:59:28,619
so that they're not catering to the algorithm

775
00:59:28,619 --> 00:59:30,779
or what have you

776
00:59:30,779 --> 00:59:32,239
so I think that's

777
00:59:32,239 --> 00:59:34,819
that is in my mind a much

778
00:59:34,819 --> 00:59:36,179
bigger deal than

779
00:59:36,179 --> 00:59:38,439
writing articles

780
00:59:38,439 --> 00:59:39,679
important as that is

781
00:59:39,679 --> 00:59:42,199
so you said it's coming in two months right?

782
00:59:42,579 --> 00:59:43,179
that's what you said?

783
00:59:43,839 --> 00:59:46,419
we're dealing in twos so it's either two weeks

784
00:59:46,419 --> 00:59:48,359
I mean now with Vibe coding

785
00:59:48,359 --> 00:59:49,079
it's hours

786
00:59:49,079 --> 00:59:58,639
maybe somebody will vibe code ahead of us we don't need to uh we don't need to bother

787
00:59:58,639 --> 01:00:04,079
yeah no you so just to clarify i was obviously you did not say two months

788
01:00:04,079 --> 01:00:12,339
yeah i'm i was joking about that uh so million is is i've heard on the grapevine

789
01:00:12,339 --> 01:00:16,219
and feel free to neither confirm nor deny this,

790
01:00:16,839 --> 01:00:21,219
but did Primal recently close a round of funding?

791
01:00:22,919 --> 01:00:27,539
No, that's not the case.

792
01:00:28,619 --> 01:00:32,079
Are you in the process of fundraising again?

793
01:00:32,579 --> 01:00:35,699
Every founder is always in the process of fundraising.

794
01:00:36,079 --> 01:00:41,739
But yes, we don't have anything to announce at the time.

795
01:00:42,339 --> 01:00:49,019
have you considered a career in politics milian that was an excellent dodge right there

796
01:00:49,019 --> 01:00:59,339
okay like when it comes to announcements avi um you know this goes for product announcements

797
01:00:59,339 --> 01:01:03,099
for feature announcements for financing announcements any sort of announcement

798
01:01:03,099 --> 01:01:09,819
uh for me like i i don't like pre-announcing things i don't like pre-announcing features

799
01:01:09,819 --> 01:01:11,279
pre-announcing products.

800
01:01:11,599 --> 01:01:13,319
I like to announce availability.

801
01:01:13,739 --> 01:01:14,999
So when we announce something,

802
01:01:15,539 --> 01:01:17,359
you can go ahead and try it today

803
01:01:17,359 --> 01:01:18,539
and things like that.

804
01:01:19,779 --> 01:01:25,459
I've been building software products

805
01:01:25,459 --> 01:01:26,559
for many years,

806
01:01:26,939 --> 01:01:30,139
and I've tried doing things differently,

807
01:01:30,319 --> 01:01:32,839
and this is by far the best way for me.

808
01:01:33,459 --> 01:01:34,979
And I have the scar tissue

809
01:01:34,979 --> 01:01:37,639
to prove all the other kind of mistakes

810
01:01:37,639 --> 01:01:40,579
that I've done, that I made like 20 years ago or so.

811
01:01:41,079 --> 01:01:46,579
So, sorry, that makes for a bit of a more boring guest on your show.

812
01:01:47,199 --> 01:01:50,279
But we like to announce availability.

813
01:01:51,539 --> 01:01:53,099
Yeah, not boring at all.

814
01:01:53,199 --> 01:01:56,319
This is an entertaining dance you just did, Melian.

815
01:02:07,639 --> 01:02:29,839
Yeah, so the people who are using Primal Studio seemed quite happy with it and quite surprised

816
01:02:29,839 --> 01:02:35,519
by how robust this version 1.0 is.

817
01:02:36,319 --> 01:02:41,319
We received some feedback about the pricing,

818
01:02:41,479 --> 01:02:46,379
that it's too high, you know, after we released 1.0.

819
01:02:46,379 --> 01:02:49,459
And then, you know, people wanted to know

820
01:02:49,459 --> 01:02:52,059
what the alternatives are and so forth.

821
01:02:52,599 --> 01:02:54,519
And to them, I would say, of course,

822
01:02:54,599 --> 01:02:58,719
we have light versions of all those tools for free on Primal.net,

823
01:02:58,719 --> 01:03:08,899
as well as Primal Studio, just like the rest of the Primal stack, is open sourced under the MIT license.

824
01:03:09,539 --> 01:03:11,059
The code is there.

825
01:03:11,579 --> 01:03:16,299
Anyone is able to stand up their own instance and run it.

826
01:03:16,299 --> 01:03:26,299
But for us to be able to continue building this and offering a high-quality product for professionals,

827
01:03:26,299 --> 01:03:32,479
we need to charge these types of professional-based kind of fees, right?

828
01:03:32,599 --> 01:03:37,379
So that's high-level kind of the feedback we got so far.

829
01:03:37,479 --> 01:03:39,299
So the users of Studio love it,

830
01:03:40,039 --> 01:03:45,459
but there are many people who are maybe disappointed that they wanted to use it,

831
01:03:45,519 --> 01:03:47,259
but it's maybe outside of their price range,

832
01:03:47,539 --> 01:03:51,639
which, by the way, I would say everyone should try it out for free for 30 days.

833
01:03:51,739 --> 01:03:54,439
That's easy enough. See if you like it.

834
01:03:54,439 --> 01:03:56,879
So it's at studio.primal.net.

835
01:03:57,039 --> 01:03:59,099
If you go in, if you already have...

836
01:03:59,099 --> 01:04:00,359
By the way, it's desktop only.

837
01:04:00,459 --> 01:04:02,639
So this is not something you do over the phone.

838
01:04:02,799 --> 01:04:06,379
This is more of a desktop or laptop kind of situation.

839
01:04:06,959 --> 01:04:13,699
So if you already have your Noster extension set up

840
01:04:13,699 --> 01:04:15,959
and ready to be logged into a Noster app,

841
01:04:16,479 --> 01:04:20,779
just go to studio.primal.net and poke around for a month,

842
01:04:20,879 --> 01:04:21,679
see how you like it.

843
01:04:24,439 --> 01:04:54,419
Thank you.

844
01:04:54,439 --> 01:05:06,439
Agreed. So we kind of wanted to, we realized...

845
01:05:18,439 --> 01:05:23,439
Exactly. And a part of it, as I mentioned, we realized that our pitch to creators sucked.

846
01:05:24,439 --> 01:05:29,159
We wanted to kind of bring some creators over and we realized our own pitch wasn't very good.

847
01:05:30,179 --> 01:05:34,959
So, you know, we got to work and now the pitch is better.

848
01:05:35,779 --> 01:05:38,299
But we, of course, have a lot more work to do.

849
01:05:38,399 --> 01:05:40,519
And it's just going to be a grind like this.

850
01:05:40,519 --> 01:05:51,759
I mean, there might be some fly-by-night, sort of like some sort of massively viral app that kind of makes it a noster and grows the network that way.

851
01:05:52,239 --> 01:05:53,719
That's certainly possible.

852
01:05:53,719 --> 01:05:56,279
We can all hope for this to happen.

853
01:05:57,039 --> 01:06:20,159
But my base case is that we are going to have to take the kind of low time preference, kind of the hard road of building everything step by step, improving our clients day in, day out, building tools for creators, onboarding creators one by one, getting them to bring their audience over.

854
01:06:20,159 --> 01:06:23,839
and then fast forward 10 years, Noster is now formidable.

855
01:06:24,399 --> 01:06:25,719
That's my base case.

856
01:06:40,599 --> 01:06:46,399
I think there is a lot of potential around these vibe coding tools

857
01:06:46,399 --> 01:06:55,759
and the ability to build something very quickly using English as your programming language

858
01:06:55,759 --> 01:07:03,939
and target the network that's open and has the infrastructure to, you know,

859
01:07:04,019 --> 01:07:07,939
store your data and do everything for you sort of out of the box,

860
01:07:07,939 --> 01:07:11,539
like you mentioned a few minutes ago, QW.

861
01:07:13,059 --> 01:07:15,259
I think that's a massive deal.

862
01:07:15,259 --> 01:07:28,939
And it's not yet, maybe it's not yet obvious based on this first cohort of applications that we're seeing, which are kind of basic and buggy and so forth.

863
01:07:29,279 --> 01:07:37,119
But I think you can see very clearly how all of this gets a lot better quickly.

864
01:07:37,119 --> 01:07:51,399
And then what's missing, in my opinion, is very seamless universal login kind of UX that we need to figure out on Oster in general.

865
01:07:51,399 --> 01:08:17,959
Once we figure that out and any app can leverage it, I think this whole idea of openness is really going to shine then because people are going to create some crazy apps and onboarding onto them is going to be easy by everyone.

866
01:08:17,959 --> 01:08:33,219
So a combination of these things, like what we kind of already have now that we didn't have a year ago are these kind of vibe coding tools that can let anyone build any app almost.

867
01:08:33,219 --> 01:08:39,859
if we combine that with a solution for a universal login somehow,

868
01:08:40,219 --> 01:08:42,579
and I don't have a solution for that yet,

869
01:08:42,579 --> 01:08:46,579
but I think collaboratively as a kind of developer,

870
01:08:46,759 --> 01:08:49,359
a nostro developer community, I'm sure we can figure that out.

871
01:08:50,219 --> 01:08:52,759
I think the combination of those two could be very powerful.

872
01:08:57,719 --> 01:08:59,199
Interesting times indeed,

873
01:08:59,199 --> 01:09:02,879
and lots to watch out for,

874
01:09:03,259 --> 01:09:06,479
or with eagerness, I would say, and anticipation.

875
01:09:07,659 --> 01:09:11,779
Milian, what was it, a couple of months back, right,

876
01:09:11,779 --> 01:09:16,659
Apple updated their App Store guidance

877
01:09:16,659 --> 01:09:23,439
that people felt potentially was a positive move,

878
01:09:23,659 --> 01:09:26,779
especially when it came to things like Zaps

879
01:09:26,779 --> 01:09:28,899
and just other payments that happened.

880
01:09:29,199 --> 01:09:31,179
on iPhone apps.

881
01:09:33,019 --> 01:09:37,999
Has that factored into how Primal is thinking about their wallet?

882
01:09:38,299 --> 01:09:42,379
Or you already have an elegant solution with the strike back end,

883
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:43,379
so you're good.

884
01:09:45,419 --> 01:09:50,639
So that's a really painful situation just in general with Apple.

885
01:09:51,399 --> 01:09:53,039
I mean, Google as well,

886
01:09:53,039 --> 01:09:56,959
they are gatekeepers of consumer software releases.

887
01:09:56,959 --> 01:10:01,959
You know, you don't get to release software when you think you're ready.

888
01:10:01,959 --> 01:10:04,959
You can release when Apple says you're ready.

889
01:10:04,959 --> 01:10:10,959
It's very frustrating to any kind of self-respecting builder,

890
01:10:10,959 --> 01:10:24,651
especially since a lot of their policies are applied sort of arbitrarily And sometimes we don know we don understand fully why we were rejected

891
01:10:24,651 --> 01:10:27,331
Sometimes we don't understand fully

892
01:10:27,331 --> 01:10:30,231
why our build was accepted.

893
01:10:30,231 --> 01:10:32,931
It's just sort of, you know,

894
01:10:34,391 --> 01:10:39,391
you kind of have to account for this big unknown

895
01:10:40,031 --> 01:10:43,611
when you create plans around your software product.

896
01:10:43,671 --> 01:10:44,991
It's very frustrating.

897
01:10:45,851 --> 01:10:55,191
So this event that you mentioned was a few weeks ago, I think, or a couple months ago maybe.

898
01:10:55,751 --> 01:11:09,191
It affected Primal in a positive way in that we decided to again try submitting a build that has Nostre Wallet Connect capabilities

899
01:11:09,191 --> 01:11:24,331
capabilities where users who don't want to use the built-in Primal wallet, which has some KYC light in it to enable it, so people who want to use an external wallet are now able to do so.

900
01:11:24,971 --> 01:11:31,791
We had implemented that a while ago, and we had supported that in Android for a long time and also our web app.

901
01:11:32,191 --> 01:11:46,231
But we had this complicated situation where we had to explain to the users that, yes, they can use an external wallet in all Primal clients except for iOS because Apple wouldn't let us do it.

902
01:11:46,231 --> 01:11:58,211
So, we used that occasion to kind of brush up on that feature, make it a little bit tighter, and submit the build to the App Store, and this time it got approved.

903
01:11:58,591 --> 01:12:07,171
I really don't know if it's at all related to that ruling or if we just got lucky this time.

904
01:12:07,391 --> 01:12:11,731
It's part of the frustration of not knowing why it got accepted.

905
01:12:11,731 --> 01:12:17,971
but the outcome is that now all primal clients support an external wallet.

906
01:12:19,271 --> 01:12:21,771
So that's how we were affected by this.

907
01:12:23,191 --> 01:12:28,431
There was, I don't know if you were able to attend this when you were in Prague,

908
01:12:29,111 --> 01:12:33,711
but Vexel had that big announcement of the Freedom Store, right?

909
01:12:33,791 --> 01:12:40,431
Vexel, the peer-to-peer Bitcoin marketplace that's out of the Czech Republic.

910
01:12:41,731 --> 01:12:46,071
They re-enacted Apple's 1984 ad.

911
01:12:47,951 --> 01:12:52,611
But obviously in this case, Apple is the bad guy, is big brother.

912
01:12:53,611 --> 01:13:01,831
And I think there's an EU rule now where iPhones have to allow essentially the equivalent of sideloading.

913
01:13:02,271 --> 01:13:09,491
So they've teamed up with some other apps, Vexel and a few others, and they've created a freedom store.

914
01:13:09,491 --> 01:13:14,471
Do you see something like that coming to the U.S.?

915
01:13:14,471 --> 01:13:17,351
And do you think Primal would benefit from something like that?

916
01:13:19,091 --> 01:13:23,471
I really have no idea what will happen in that area.

917
01:13:23,691 --> 01:13:28,131
I mean, Apple is, of course, going to fight this tooth and nail.

918
01:13:30,471 --> 01:13:34,711
I'm not holding my breath that something like this would come to the U.S.

919
01:13:34,711 --> 01:13:38,671
I think in the long run

920
01:13:38,671 --> 01:13:40,531
this is a mistake

921
01:13:40,531 --> 01:13:42,951
for Apple and in the long run

922
01:13:42,951 --> 01:13:44,811
they will suffer the consequences

923
01:13:44,811 --> 01:13:46,851
of this where kind of the most talented

924
01:13:46,851 --> 01:13:48,571
developers are going to slowly

925
01:13:48,571 --> 01:13:52,571
put most of their time elsewhere

926
01:13:52,571 --> 01:13:55,291
and you'll end up with a substandard

927
01:13:55,291 --> 01:13:56,191
experience

928
01:13:56,191 --> 01:13:58,191
and feature set on

929
01:13:58,191 --> 01:14:00,311
Apple but

930
01:14:00,311 --> 01:14:02,971
that's not going to happen anytime soon

931
01:14:02,971 --> 01:14:04,251
unfortunately I think

932
01:14:04,911 --> 01:14:08,891
So this is just the reality that we need to deal with.

933
01:14:09,211 --> 01:14:11,731
But also for builders of freedom tech,

934
01:14:12,491 --> 01:14:15,051
it's good to get reminded of these things.

935
01:14:15,051 --> 01:14:21,671
It's good to have some pressure being applied like this

936
01:14:21,671 --> 01:14:23,331
so that we build alternatives.

937
01:14:24,391 --> 01:14:27,271
But I don't have anything more specific to say than that.

938
01:14:27,271 --> 01:14:51,671
Yeah. Let's move to metrics, Malian. So as you're tracking the growth of Primal and adoption or what have you, all the positive indicators that you're looking for, or negative indicators too, what are the key metrics that you look at?

939
01:14:51,671 --> 01:14:55,191
because I know it can be challenging getting real numbers on NOSTA.

940
01:14:55,571 --> 01:15:00,711
Now, with the indexer, you perhaps have one of the closest approximations,

941
01:15:00,871 --> 01:15:07,431
but you still don't get things like views or impressions or things like that.

942
01:15:07,491 --> 01:15:10,851
Those are almost impossible, I would think, to track on NOSTA.

943
01:15:11,331 --> 01:15:16,211
But beyond that, what are the key metrics that you use within Primal

944
01:15:16,211 --> 01:15:20,071
to track growth, adoption, and so on?

945
01:15:21,671 --> 01:15:28,691
Yeah, you're right. So we don't have capabilities to track views precisely.

946
01:15:29,331 --> 01:15:34,411
I know some other clients have some estimates, and that's fair, I think.

947
01:15:34,411 --> 01:15:44,711
But it's fairly common among Noster clients to not have any sort of tracking built into the apps.

948
01:15:44,711 --> 01:15:52,871
and the culture within Nostra is such to kind of maximize privacy as much as possible

949
01:15:52,871 --> 01:16:00,051
and be careful whenever we consider different trade-offs

950
01:16:00,051 --> 01:16:05,571
to kind of take privacy concerns into account in a major way.

951
01:16:05,571 --> 01:16:13,991
So we don't have views, but we do have, you know, Nostra is a public network.

952
01:16:14,711 --> 01:16:23,551
and where sort of cryptographic identities sign events and publish them to the public relays.

953
01:16:24,551 --> 01:16:32,391
And since we have the web of trust algorithms that is fairly effective at filtering out bots,

954
01:16:33,431 --> 01:16:42,331
we do have the ability to see how many users out there are on Oster

955
01:16:42,331 --> 01:16:45,451
and how many users are primal and so forth.

956
01:16:45,931 --> 01:16:53,511
So I would say the biggest metric is how many humans use our software

957
01:16:53,511 --> 01:16:58,651
and are on our network every day, every month, every week, right?

958
01:16:58,871 --> 01:17:01,731
To me, this is the most important metric.

959
01:17:01,731 --> 01:17:09,071
Are humans having fun using our software and participating in Nostr?

960
01:17:09,071 --> 01:17:12,511
beyond that I would say

961
01:17:12,511 --> 01:17:15,591
zaps

962
01:17:15,591 --> 01:17:18,291
so transactions that

963
01:17:18,291 --> 01:17:21,571
are being made every day on Oster

964
01:17:21,571 --> 01:17:24,871
to kind of transmit value

965
01:17:24,871 --> 01:17:27,891
and to kind of signal to the rest of the network

966
01:17:27,891 --> 01:17:31,251
regarding which content users find valuable

967
01:17:31,251 --> 01:17:31,991
and so forth

968
01:17:31,991 --> 01:17:35,751
so that's probably beyond kind of

969
01:17:35,751 --> 01:17:39,191
the number of humans who are here every day with us,

970
01:17:39,631 --> 01:17:42,451
we want to see that number kind of grow over time.

971
01:17:42,651 --> 01:17:46,791
I would say in the same way we would like to see

972
01:17:46,791 --> 01:17:50,011
the number of transactions grow

973
01:17:50,011 --> 01:17:52,751
kind of at least proportionally

974
01:17:52,751 --> 01:17:55,351
with the way that user base grows.

975
01:17:56,431 --> 01:18:00,071
This is crucial, I think,

976
01:18:00,071 --> 01:18:02,931
because if this is our opportunity

977
01:18:02,931 --> 01:18:09,111
potentially to build a network with a different set of incentives,

978
01:18:09,991 --> 01:18:17,911
not just from the kind of openness and kind of self-sovereignty point of view,

979
01:18:17,991 --> 01:18:21,191
but also from the monetization point of view.

980
01:18:21,191 --> 01:18:28,431
And those kind of perverse incentives that exist in legacy systems,

981
01:18:28,431 --> 01:18:33,271
we have a chance to maybe build something better

982
01:18:33,271 --> 01:18:37,391
that's based on kind of transmitting users voluntarily

983
01:18:37,391 --> 01:18:40,231
and consciously transmitting value.

984
01:18:41,091 --> 01:18:43,651
So I think this is one of Gigi's main points,

985
01:18:43,771 --> 01:18:46,551
which is like it's a high consciousness action

986
01:18:46,551 --> 01:18:50,711
to do a micropayment, to do a zap, let's say,

987
01:18:51,271 --> 01:18:55,591
on a piece of content that you appreciate

988
01:18:55,591 --> 01:18:56,951
for whatever reason, right?

989
01:18:56,951 --> 01:19:06,951
So if this takes off, and we have some early indications that it is in fact taking off.

990
01:19:06,951 --> 01:19:11,951
For the user base that we already have on Noster, let's look at some numbers.

991
01:19:11,951 --> 01:19:18,951
For example, order of magnitude, I think between 50 and 100,000 humans are active on Noster.

992
01:19:18,951 --> 01:19:25,951
And we've crossed the threshold of 5 million zaps recently.

993
01:19:26,951 --> 01:19:28,191
Those are interesting.

994
01:19:29,811 --> 01:19:31,411
That's an interesting ratio.

995
01:19:32,811 --> 01:19:36,751
It means like those of us who are active on NOSTER

996
01:19:36,751 --> 01:19:42,451
are active not only in terms of participating in the discussions,

997
01:19:42,631 --> 01:19:47,571
but we're actually sending some money around and are active monetarily.

998
01:19:49,671 --> 01:19:55,131
And that gives us kind of reason for optimism

999
01:19:55,131 --> 01:20:02,971
that we might be able to stand up a network that has a different set of incentives for creators

1000
01:20:02,971 --> 01:20:05,811
than just harvesting eyeballs with advertising.

1001
01:20:25,131 --> 01:20:40,091
you know Noster is dead is is so hilarious all right I'm gonna actually

1002
01:20:40,091 --> 01:20:48,091
I'm gonna actually gonna go there because like uh Avi you were uh you were in Prague right

1003
01:20:48,091 --> 01:20:49,351
yes

1004
01:20:49,351 --> 01:20:51,771
and do you remember

1005
01:20:51,771 --> 01:20:52,791
that

1006
01:20:52,791 --> 01:20:55,971
Bitkit

1007
01:20:55,971 --> 01:20:56,571
and

1008
01:20:56,571 --> 01:20:59,251
PubKey

1009
01:20:59,251 --> 01:21:00,271
those guys

1010
01:21:00,271 --> 01:21:01,471
they had like

1011
01:21:01,471 --> 01:21:02,611
a massive

1012
01:21:02,611 --> 01:21:04,871
double booth

1013
01:21:04,871 --> 01:21:06,351
right by the entrance there

1014
01:21:06,351 --> 01:21:07,451
remember?

1015
01:21:07,731 --> 01:21:08,391
right they did

1016
01:21:08,391 --> 01:21:09,131
yes

1017
01:21:09,131 --> 01:21:10,991
prime location

1018
01:21:10,991 --> 01:21:13,351
it's like impossible to miss

1019
01:21:13,351 --> 01:21:15,591
did you notice anything

1020
01:21:15,591 --> 01:21:17,191
about the massive booth there?

1021
01:21:18,091 --> 01:21:20,971
what

1022
01:21:20,971 --> 01:21:23,091
tumbleweeds

1023
01:21:23,091 --> 01:21:26,091
like nobody was there

1024
01:21:26,091 --> 01:21:31,931
and did you notice anything about Primal's booth

1025
01:21:31,931 --> 01:21:35,231
they were hanging with Primal

1026
01:21:35,231 --> 01:21:39,071
it was kind of actually ridiculous

1027
01:21:39,071 --> 01:21:44,931
it was a zombie apocalypse at our booth

1028
01:21:44,931 --> 01:21:47,791
because like we were inundated

1029
01:21:47,791 --> 01:21:52,791
We were sworn for three days straight with people who just...

1030
01:21:52,791 --> 01:22:07,543
Yes the hang bar was a big success and Paul gets all the credit there We had a lot of fun there but there was like a lineup of people you know waiting to hang with us but also like to talk about Noster

1031
01:22:07,543 --> 01:22:09,003
and to participate,

1032
01:22:10,283 --> 01:22:12,743
you had to be on Noster.

1033
01:22:12,943 --> 01:22:13,803
So you come over,

1034
01:22:14,203 --> 01:22:16,603
Marco whipped up a little kind of leaderboard app

1035
01:22:16,603 --> 01:22:20,083
where we scan your Noster NPUB.

1036
01:22:20,383 --> 01:22:22,083
Your name shows up on the screen

1037
01:22:22,083 --> 01:22:23,963
with your avatar, with all the zeros.

1038
01:22:23,963 --> 01:22:25,883
And then the moment you start hanging,

1039
01:22:25,883 --> 01:22:34,403
you know sats start rolling in so it was fun and it was three days of non-stop action it was like

1040
01:22:34,403 --> 01:22:39,603
you know i don't know how many times you walked by but it was like it was ridiculous

1041
01:22:39,603 --> 01:22:45,383
it was ridiculous and then even like on day on the last day they were they were about to close the

1042
01:22:45,383 --> 01:22:54,203
uh the trade show floor uh at 6 p.m whatever we still had a lineup and i was like okay are we

1043
01:22:54,203 --> 01:22:56,723
taking this down, Marco, you're going to tell these people it's over?

1044
01:22:57,123 --> 01:22:58,863
And Marco's like, no, I'm going to let you go.

1045
01:22:59,563 --> 01:23:06,403
So the workers started dismantling all the other booths.

1046
01:23:06,563 --> 01:23:07,463
We were still going.

1047
01:23:08,703 --> 01:23:12,383
So anyway, that's on the topic of who's dead.

1048
01:23:13,143 --> 01:23:18,023
By the way, so, Milian, that was an incredibly clever piece of marketing,

1049
01:23:18,203 --> 01:23:19,123
hanging with Primal.

1050
01:23:19,123 --> 01:23:26,603
Also those cards that you give out with 2100 sats on them, you get onboard onto Primal and then you get those sats.

1051
01:23:27,103 --> 01:23:28,603
That was really cool as well.

1052
01:23:29,043 --> 01:23:29,483
So yes.

1053
01:23:35,643 --> 01:23:42,583
Yes, we introduced the cards in a small way at Bitcoin Vegas.

1054
01:23:42,583 --> 01:23:47,023
because they were not, you know, we couldn't,

1055
01:23:47,603 --> 01:23:50,723
the printer couldn't get the right amount

1056
01:23:50,723 --> 01:23:54,403
or the massive amount we needed in time for Vegas.

1057
01:23:54,883 --> 01:23:59,163
But fully, you know, it was fully rolled out for Prague

1058
01:23:59,163 --> 01:24:02,523
where every participant got a card when they entered.

1059
01:24:03,163 --> 01:24:05,203
And we were also giving them out at the booth.

1060
01:24:05,923 --> 01:24:10,823
But it's kind of like an interesting contrast

1061
01:24:10,823 --> 01:24:14,683
in terms of who's dead and who's alive.

1062
01:24:15,943 --> 01:24:16,983
No, for sure.

1063
01:24:17,783 --> 01:24:21,963
And you mentioned that other protocol, if you will, right, PubKey.

1064
01:24:22,563 --> 01:24:25,263
The interesting thing is, you know, you have folks like that.

1065
01:24:25,303 --> 01:24:28,343
Every now and then you have people with a competing, I guess,

1066
01:24:29,083 --> 01:24:30,903
who are trying to build a competing network,

1067
01:24:31,143 --> 01:24:35,203
who come in and they start making this intellectual,

1068
01:24:35,723 --> 01:24:37,563
yeah, technical or intellectual case

1069
01:24:37,563 --> 01:24:40,723
for why their network is better and why NOSTA is dead

1070
01:24:40,723 --> 01:24:42,863
on a purely technical basis.

1071
01:24:43,603 --> 01:24:44,783
And I think a lot of them,

1072
01:24:45,203 --> 01:24:46,723
and especially this most recent wave,

1073
01:24:47,103 --> 01:24:49,123
misses a really, really key point.

1074
01:24:50,063 --> 01:24:52,103
Most of us are on NOSTA

1075
01:24:52,103 --> 01:24:53,583
because of how we feel

1076
01:24:53,583 --> 01:24:55,403
being part of this community,

1077
01:24:55,403 --> 01:24:57,843
not because we were intellectually convinced

1078
01:24:57,843 --> 01:24:58,543
to be here

1079
01:24:58,543 --> 01:25:02,043
and we're here for some textbook academic reason, right?

1080
01:25:02,103 --> 01:25:04,303
We're here because it's nice.

1081
01:25:04,783 --> 01:25:05,463
It's fun.

1082
01:25:06,463 --> 01:25:08,363
And until and unless

1083
01:25:08,363 --> 01:25:09,983
they can recreate that vibe

1084
01:25:09,983 --> 01:25:11,823
or better in their network,

1085
01:25:12,023 --> 01:25:14,003
there is no migration that's going to happen.

1086
01:25:15,403 --> 01:25:16,303
Yeah, I agree.

1087
01:25:16,423 --> 01:25:18,503
I mean, you can't just force

1088
01:25:18,503 --> 01:25:20,643
kind of create these types of networks.

1089
01:25:21,043 --> 01:25:22,203
They emerge.

1090
01:25:23,083 --> 01:25:25,303
And you especially can't force,

1091
01:25:25,603 --> 01:25:29,623
can't create them if you need an invite code

1092
01:25:29,623 --> 01:25:30,943
to get in or anything like that.

1093
01:25:31,423 --> 01:25:34,863
You know, that's a good growth hack

1094
01:25:34,863 --> 01:25:36,723
for centralized products.

1095
01:25:37,243 --> 01:25:38,463
I mean, that's fine.

1096
01:25:38,463 --> 01:25:45,823
they did great for i don't know gmail back in the day so no issues there but if you're

1097
01:25:45,823 --> 01:25:53,303
trying to bootstrap really to bootstrap a protocol that's tough i mean there needs to be some magic

1098
01:25:53,303 --> 01:26:01,943
for a movement to sprout around something like this i mean it's we need to appreciate how special

1099
01:26:01,943 --> 01:26:06,563
and rare is what we have with Noster.

1100
01:26:06,703 --> 01:26:08,683
These things don't happen often.

1101
01:26:10,443 --> 01:26:13,363
And we really need to take our wins

1102
01:26:13,363 --> 01:26:15,643
and be happy with what we have going.

1103
01:26:16,203 --> 01:26:17,603
And of course, we're going to keep growing.

1104
01:26:17,763 --> 01:26:18,943
We're going to keep hustling.

1105
01:26:20,283 --> 01:26:24,703
A bunch of different builders are doing daily work, right?

1106
01:26:25,303 --> 01:26:29,303
But what we have here already is impressive and special.

1107
01:26:30,183 --> 01:26:30,703
Yeah.

1108
01:26:30,703 --> 01:26:40,343
Yeah. And to your point, Milian, I think it is a really important point, which is these types of magic moments, they don't come very often.

1109
01:26:40,343 --> 01:26:46,503
Maybe they're once in 20 years or something like that. And we had that in late 2022, early 2023.

1110
01:26:47,403 --> 01:27:00,103
That's a weird inflection point, a weird wrinkle in the universe where a group of people showed up in one place at one time, had so much fun that they didn't want to leave.

1111
01:27:00,103 --> 01:27:03,863
Yeah, sure, one or two of them, a handful of them left, but the core remained.

1112
01:27:04,243 --> 01:27:07,083
And they still remain because of that feeling, because of that magic.

1113
01:27:09,463 --> 01:27:10,303
Good stuff.

1114
01:27:11,163 --> 01:27:13,263
Let's do some Wens, Milian.

1115
01:27:13,703 --> 01:27:15,103
I have a couple of Wens.

1116
01:27:15,943 --> 01:27:16,903
Sounds amazing.

1117
01:27:19,963 --> 01:27:22,163
Yeah, all of these are Wens, yes.

1118
01:27:23,223 --> 01:27:24,103
Proper Wens.

1119
01:27:25,883 --> 01:27:27,403
Wend NIP 53.

1120
01:27:27,403 --> 01:27:36,603
And for those who are unfamiliar, this is the NIP that allows NOSTA clients to show live streaming events.

1121
01:27:36,783 --> 01:27:46,203
So it could be like the way Twitter has Twitter spaces or I guess Twitter Live, which is videos, right?

1122
01:27:46,463 --> 01:27:52,623
So that's what NIP 53 in theory allows a lot of NOSTA clients to do if they implement that.

1123
01:27:52,623 --> 01:27:56,863
I believe Amethyst already implemented it a long time ago,

1124
01:27:57,183 --> 01:27:59,363
probably because Vitor was the one who wrote the NIP.

1125
01:28:00,763 --> 01:28:04,383
But yes, Milian, when NIP 53 or equivalent?

1126
01:28:06,483 --> 01:28:10,623
So NIP 53 is the one we would be supporting, of course.

1127
01:28:10,903 --> 01:28:12,163
And as I mentioned previously,

1128
01:28:12,503 --> 01:28:17,263
we are quite interested in long-form video at Primal.

1129
01:28:17,263 --> 01:28:24,983
uh the lowest hanging fruits are these uh live video streams or live streams just in general

1130
01:28:24,983 --> 01:28:33,883
um so in our roadmap i'm not going to say when it's going to get released or or you know

1131
01:28:33,883 --> 01:28:41,103
even the release it would be a part of but this is the feature that makes sense to ship first

1132
01:28:41,103 --> 01:28:57,903
Like if we're looking at long-form video content, supporting these content types from our clients, and they're created however the creators are currently creating them.

1133
01:28:58,563 --> 01:29:05,563
So if you have a live stream, we should be able to recognize that within Primal and then show the stream.

1134
01:29:05,563 --> 01:29:07,563
so

1135
01:29:07,563 --> 01:29:10,163
I guess soon

1136
01:29:10,163 --> 01:29:12,123
but

1137
01:29:12,123 --> 01:29:14,583
yeah like you said

1138
01:29:14,583 --> 01:29:16,443
there are already multiple other clients

1139
01:29:16,443 --> 01:29:18,123
that do a pretty good job

1140
01:29:18,123 --> 01:29:20,183
at supporting these and

1141
01:29:20,183 --> 01:29:22,483
we want to also

1142
01:29:22,483 --> 01:29:24,003
join the party

1143
01:29:24,003 --> 01:29:26,683
yeah Nostar does it

1144
01:29:26,683 --> 01:29:28,603
already they were one of the early ones

1145
01:29:28,603 --> 01:29:29,003
as well

1146
01:29:29,003 --> 01:29:41,243
I think the stream itself

1147
01:29:41,243 --> 01:29:41,903
is maybe

1148
01:29:41,903 --> 01:29:43,083
yeah

1149
01:29:43,083 --> 01:29:48,983
Nip53 is not wrecked

1150
01:29:48,983 --> 01:29:51,183
Zach.stream is wrecked

1151
01:29:51,183 --> 01:29:57,203
yeah

1152
01:29:57,203 --> 01:29:57,803
yeah

1153
01:29:57,803 --> 01:29:59,803
I don't believe there's enough.

1154
01:30:00,523 --> 01:30:00,643
Yeah.

1155
01:30:02,983 --> 01:30:03,943
Yeah, yeah.

1156
01:30:03,983 --> 01:30:05,903
We need alternatives for sure.

1157
01:30:08,863 --> 01:30:09,623
Okay.

1158
01:30:14,623 --> 01:30:17,863
So you're referring, of course, to the MLS protocol,

1159
01:30:18,403 --> 01:30:25,403
which would bring much more private and more powerful DMs into Primal?

1160
01:30:25,403 --> 01:30:26,843
Yes.

1161
01:30:26,843 --> 01:30:54,663
Yeah, and just to add to that,

1162
01:30:54,663 --> 01:31:02,183
Milian, I think the idea there would be to make DMs first-class citizens again, right?

1163
01:31:02,903 --> 01:31:10,963
In the case of Primal, when you started, you had the DMs, the Kind4s, and you had them in the bottom bar.

1164
01:31:11,883 --> 01:31:18,663
And then at some point, to me, that's a first-class citizen because then you see the notification while you're scrolling, right?

1165
01:31:18,663 --> 01:31:22,523
When you get a DM, obviously, Kind4 has its issues with privacy and what have you.

1166
01:31:22,523 --> 01:31:26,123
So then you move them to the sidebar where no one sees them anymore.

1167
01:31:26,763 --> 01:31:32,063
So with white noise, first of all, as QW said, when white noise?

1168
01:31:32,583 --> 01:31:36,823
And two, does that mean they become first-class citizens again in Primal?

1169
01:31:37,663 --> 01:31:41,223
Yes, that demotion of DMs was very intentional,

1170
01:31:41,663 --> 01:31:44,303
and it's exactly for the reason you outlined.

1171
01:31:44,303 --> 01:31:49,303
And of course, we're kind of in the process of,

1172
01:31:49,943 --> 01:31:53,443
when I say we, I mean the Noster developer community,

1173
01:31:53,443 --> 01:31:56,123
we're all in the process of figuring out

1174
01:31:56,123 --> 01:31:57,943
what the standard is going to be.

1175
01:31:58,863 --> 01:32:01,823
I really like what Jeff G and the team are doing

1176
01:32:01,823 --> 01:32:02,743
with white noise.

1177
01:32:02,743 --> 01:32:07,743
And I think MLS is probably the protocol to follow there.

1178
01:32:07,743 --> 01:32:09,403
to follow there.

1179
01:32:10,383 --> 01:32:11,143
So,

1180
01:32:14,083 --> 01:32:19,083
like looking at it from today's kind of point of view,

1181
01:32:19,143 --> 01:32:23,643
this seems like the best contender for the solution.

1182
01:32:26,483 --> 01:32:29,623
What I like about White Nose and Jeff and his team

1183
01:32:29,623 --> 01:32:32,283
is that they are not only building

1184
01:32:34,083 --> 01:32:37,643
the product on top of this open spec

1185
01:32:37,643 --> 01:32:42,643
and kind of adjusting the specs so that it works with Noster

1186
01:32:43,283 --> 01:32:46,083
in terms of publishing to release and so forth.

1187
01:32:46,083 --> 01:32:50,143
But they're also building libraries for the rest of us

1188
01:32:50,143 --> 01:32:55,143
that we can use easily to kind of reuse a lot of their work

1189
01:32:57,283 --> 01:33:00,543
and to be able to bring this to a client like Primal

1190
01:33:00,543 --> 01:33:02,983
down the road easily.

1191
01:33:02,983 --> 01:33:04,343
So we're already in touch with them

1192
01:33:04,343 --> 01:33:07,383
and we want to make sure we're aligned.

1193
01:33:08,523 --> 01:33:15,263
And I think the same is like other Noster devs

1194
01:33:15,263 --> 01:33:16,743
are kind of in the same boat.

1195
01:33:17,723 --> 01:33:19,703
So if I were a betting man,

1196
01:33:19,963 --> 01:33:22,503
I'd say there will be a point in the future

1197
01:33:22,503 --> 01:33:24,963
where this tech is deemed ready

1198
01:33:24,963 --> 01:33:29,143
and you will see many clients incorporated

1199
01:33:29,143 --> 01:33:30,543
in a short amount of time.

1200
01:33:30,543 --> 01:33:40,443
That doesn't really answer your when question, but it kind of hopefully gives some color on how this would play out.

1201
01:33:43,943 --> 01:33:44,243
Yeah.

1202
01:33:44,895 --> 01:33:45,935
You can ask Jeff.

1203
01:33:47,595 --> 01:33:48,875
Well, here's the thing, right?

1204
01:33:50,035 --> 01:33:52,295
And we will have Jeff on the show in a couple of weeks.

1205
01:33:54,275 --> 01:33:56,915
I think of white noise, and he'll probably correct me,

1206
01:33:56,995 --> 01:34:00,595
but I think of it as a reference implementation of the messaging protocol.

1207
01:34:00,595 --> 01:34:05,975
I think what truly turbocharges it is if Amethyst, if Primal,

1208
01:34:06,115 --> 01:34:09,695
if Darmus and others implement that within their clients,

1209
01:34:09,735 --> 01:34:13,235
because at that point, then everything is in the app, right?

1210
01:34:13,235 --> 01:34:15,375
Then we don't need a Telegram or Signal.

1211
01:34:15,935 --> 01:34:17,495
We create our groups within,

1212
01:34:18,235 --> 01:34:20,815
I can create a group within Primal, right?

1213
01:34:20,895 --> 01:34:22,635
And message folks.

1214
01:34:22,795 --> 01:34:27,375
And then so maybe that's what will finally drive NOSTA users

1215
01:34:27,375 --> 01:34:30,595
to get rid of Telegram and Signal.

1216
01:34:30,915 --> 01:34:31,775
But we'll see.

1217
01:34:32,915 --> 01:34:35,595
Yeah, that will be a powerful solution.

1218
01:34:37,235 --> 01:34:41,555
More powerful than Signal and certainly more than Telegram.

1219
01:34:43,235 --> 01:34:53,555
almost too powerful yeah with all of this in i mean um you can see how like powerful the whole

1220
01:34:53,555 --> 01:34:59,395
nostr stack is is going to become as a part of this like it's basically inevitable we just need

1221
01:34:59,395 --> 01:35:05,475
to do a ton of work and we believe me most of most devs are kind of day in day out like

1222
01:35:05,475 --> 01:35:11,795
you're putting in long hours right because we see how good all of this can be it's just like

1223
01:35:11,795 --> 01:35:15,815
like a ton of work needs to be put in to put it all together.

1224
01:35:16,395 --> 01:35:20,575
But it's kind of starting to seem pretty obvious

1225
01:35:20,575 --> 01:35:24,575
in terms of how it all comes together.

1226
01:35:25,595 --> 01:35:28,575
So speaking of long hours and hard work,

1227
01:35:29,075 --> 01:35:31,635
building in the public can be absolutely brutal.

1228
01:35:32,495 --> 01:35:37,535
And there can be a lot of noise disguised as feedback or criticism, right?

1229
01:35:38,515 --> 01:35:40,635
And we see that a lot on Nostro.

1230
01:35:40,635 --> 01:35:56,195
So what mindset shifts have you and the team used to help you stay sane amidst all this crazy noise that every now and then pops up and that nonstop feedback loop?

1231
01:35:56,255 --> 01:35:57,815
How do you stay sane and keep building?

1232
01:35:59,275 --> 01:36:06,415
I mean, it's the best case scenario is to get a lot of noise around the project that you're working on.

1233
01:36:06,415 --> 01:36:12,875
You know, tumbleweeds and complete silence is way worse, right?

1234
01:36:13,475 --> 01:36:18,555
You know, those who experience that might have a lot of time on their hands

1235
01:36:18,555 --> 01:36:21,715
to go troll the customers or users of other networks.

1236
01:36:23,315 --> 01:36:23,975
Well played.

1237
01:36:24,515 --> 01:36:25,095
Well played.

1238
01:36:25,595 --> 01:36:30,095
But, you know, in all honesty, it's been amazing.

1239
01:36:30,295 --> 01:36:34,275
You know, we got our amount of crap over, you know, the years,

1240
01:36:34,275 --> 01:36:35,355
and that's fine.

1241
01:36:35,355 --> 01:36:43,115
some deserved some maybe not so much but on balance uh feedback the feedback has been great

1242
01:36:43,835 --> 01:36:51,995
uh and both in terms of kind of getting support from our users but also uh getting competent

1243
01:36:51,995 --> 01:36:58,955
feedback that helps us improve the product i think building for nostr is a very interesting experience

1244
01:36:58,955 --> 01:37:05,895
because an unusually high number of our users

1245
01:37:05,895 --> 01:37:07,335
are actually developers.

1246
01:37:08,855 --> 01:37:13,155
And they're enthusiastic about both the protocol and Primal.

1247
01:37:13,635 --> 01:37:16,195
So we get a lot of high signal feedback

1248
01:37:16,195 --> 01:37:18,615
that helps us improve the product, which is great.

1249
01:37:19,775 --> 01:37:23,675
So really can't complain in this area at all.

1250
01:37:23,815 --> 01:37:26,475
I'll take this over any alternative any day.

1251
01:37:26,475 --> 01:37:36,615
love it so milian one of the things when i met you in prague and i met you uh for the first time

1252
01:37:36,615 --> 01:37:45,775
last year in prague 24 and you were working obviously i met marco your son who works at

1253
01:37:45,775 --> 01:37:50,615
primal and then this year i met your wife and your daughter as well and it seems like

1254
01:37:50,615 --> 01:37:56,355
what seemed really nice to me was primal largely seems like a family business almost

1255
01:37:56,355 --> 01:37:57,835
Obviously, you have other employees.

1256
01:37:58,935 --> 01:38:02,335
But talk about what it's like to work with family.

1257
01:38:02,515 --> 01:38:05,415
I mean, your wife contributes to Primal.

1258
01:38:05,495 --> 01:38:06,335
Your daughter does.

1259
01:38:06,615 --> 01:38:18,852
She doing an amazing job at the booth keeping up with all the crowds Marcos of course at this point he like you know he an expert So yeah talk about that family dynamic

1260
01:38:18,852 --> 01:38:23,192
what it's like running a business with your spouse and kids.

1261
01:38:24,792 --> 01:38:26,132
Yeah, that's an interesting question.

1262
01:38:26,432 --> 01:38:30,532
And I do have maybe a somewhat unusual karma when it comes to that

1263
01:38:30,532 --> 01:38:36,192
because one of my previous startups, I actually hired my dad.

1264
01:38:36,192 --> 01:38:39,712
And so I started the company and he was with IBM.

1265
01:38:40,772 --> 01:38:44,292
He was like a software architect on their Visual Age C++ team.

1266
01:38:45,672 --> 01:38:53,552
And I started the company and then convinced him to leave IBM and come work with me.

1267
01:38:53,632 --> 01:38:56,632
And we ended up working for 12 years together.

1268
01:38:58,072 --> 01:39:05,052
It was really an amazing experience to spend all that time with my old man.

1269
01:39:05,052 --> 01:39:08,432
and then we had a successful outcome with that company.

1270
01:39:09,112 --> 01:39:16,812
So we had that going and then when I started Primal back in January of 23,

1271
01:39:18,272 --> 01:39:21,652
Marco joined me maybe a few months later

1272
01:39:21,652 --> 01:39:28,452
and he was very sort of new to programming and all that

1273
01:39:28,452 --> 01:39:31,052
but he got up to speed quickly

1274
01:39:31,052 --> 01:39:35,812
and he's one of the, you know, a crucial part of the member of the team.

1275
01:39:36,432 --> 01:39:40,472
So for context, Primal is currently seven full-time people.

1276
01:39:42,292 --> 01:39:46,812
So we have four senior developers, Marco, Paul, and myself.

1277
01:39:47,272 --> 01:39:48,332
So we're all full-time.

1278
01:39:49,332 --> 01:39:54,212
And my daughter, Emma, joined us this year kind of part-time

1279
01:39:54,212 --> 01:39:55,632
because she's still in school.

1280
01:39:55,752 --> 01:39:57,892
She still has one more year of university.

1281
01:39:57,892 --> 01:40:05,352
but she joined us and it's she she started kicking ass pretty quickly too

1282
01:40:05,352 --> 01:40:14,912
she was definitely extremely helpful during the conference in fact she kind of studied up ahead

1283
01:40:14,912 --> 01:40:21,352
of time to make sure she can you know answer questions and be competent enough to man the

1284
01:40:21,352 --> 01:40:29,472
booth and then uh we had this uh moment where you know during the three days uh the four of them

1285
01:40:29,472 --> 01:40:34,172
were manning the booth i wasn't at the booth that much i was running around mostly and then at one

1286
01:40:34,172 --> 01:40:41,092
point i came back and i just sat down and there was this guy who approached us and asked us kind

1287
01:40:41,092 --> 01:40:48,792
of the most basic question he looked at me he was like so what is nostor and i just looked at him i

1288
01:40:48,792 --> 01:40:51,612
I was just like, I went blank.

1289
01:40:52,512 --> 01:40:54,432
I didn't even know where to start.

1290
01:40:54,932 --> 01:40:57,212
And Emma was right next to me and she cut in

1291
01:40:57,212 --> 01:41:00,292
and she just took the question and she crushed it.

1292
01:41:00,652 --> 01:41:02,112
So she was quite happy with that.

1293
01:41:03,392 --> 01:41:06,552
So to answer your question, it's a major blessing

1294
01:41:06,552 --> 01:41:10,412
to have the opportunity to work with family,

1295
01:41:11,012 --> 01:41:16,992
especially on a project that's so potentially high impact, right?

1296
01:41:16,992 --> 01:41:24,692
Like we're building, we're helping build out this protocol, which we think is going to be an important thing for all of us.

1297
01:41:25,732 --> 01:41:29,692
So it's really good vibes on our team.

1298
01:41:30,792 --> 01:41:33,812
You know, we really are just like a family, essentially.

1299
01:41:35,532 --> 01:41:41,032
And after the big success we had in Prague, we all flew down to Serbia.

1300
01:41:41,032 --> 01:41:48,172
and the next day we drove to this mysterious mountain in the heart of Serbia

1301
01:41:48,172 --> 01:41:50,932
and we climbed it as a team.

1302
01:41:51,852 --> 01:41:55,432
We all got up at 1 a.m. and did the night climb

1303
01:41:55,432 --> 01:41:59,732
and reached the summit at sunset.

1304
01:42:00,332 --> 01:42:01,152
Sorry, sunrise.

1305
01:42:02,612 --> 01:42:08,852
And yeah, I mean, it's just incredibly good vibes all around on the team.

1306
01:42:08,852 --> 01:42:15,252
So we're very fortunate to be working on this project together.

1307
01:42:17,092 --> 01:42:18,092
I love it.

1308
01:42:22,952 --> 01:42:24,452
I'm thinking about it, man.

1309
01:42:24,992 --> 01:42:28,672
I mean, I saw, I mean, my son is a few years younger than Marco.

1310
01:42:30,072 --> 01:42:32,492
But interesting parallels there.

1311
01:42:32,952 --> 01:42:35,732
I mean, Milian, Marco was going to be a basketball player, right?

1312
01:42:35,732 --> 01:42:43,570
And then instead he said if anyone hasn met Marco he 7 I think or maybe closer to 8 right Milian

1313
01:42:47,110 --> 01:42:54,410
Marco is 205 centimeters, so that's like 6'9", something like that.

1314
01:42:55,770 --> 01:42:56,030
Yeah.

1315
01:42:56,030 --> 01:42:56,670
Yeah.

1316
01:43:04,030 --> 01:43:05,150
Let's go.

1317
01:43:05,410 --> 01:43:06,490
Love it.

1318
01:43:07,090 --> 01:43:07,750
Love it.

1319
01:43:21,910 --> 01:43:22,830
Mm-hmm.

1320
01:43:26,350 --> 01:43:27,270
Mm-hmm.

1321
01:43:37,090 --> 01:43:58,270
So that was another one of those kind of Paul ideas that like he put together a really good pitch

1322
01:43:58,270 --> 01:44:06,330
that we couldn't say no. I mean like the hang bar at the booth was his idea as well and

1323
01:44:06,330 --> 01:44:11,450
i mean it's interesting because he knew how successful it's going to be he was just trust

1324
01:44:11,450 --> 01:44:20,830
me guys it's going to be ridiculous and it was uh so i think when it comes to primal and noster

1325
01:44:20,830 --> 01:44:28,790
it's such early days and it's appropriate to experiment right you try a bunch of different

1326
01:44:28,790 --> 01:44:37,430
things. You know, I like to say we're in the fuck around and find out stage, right? So when in doubt,

1327
01:44:38,150 --> 01:44:44,550
you know, whether we should do something or not, we usually err on the side of doing it, trying it.

1328
01:44:45,590 --> 01:44:50,150
So the idea behind the Primal House, as Paul probably explained, was to

1329
01:44:51,190 --> 01:44:57,990
get a place at a really nice location in Costa Rica that's very wholesome,

1330
01:44:58,790 --> 01:45:02,450
that's very primal on brand, right?

1331
01:45:02,610 --> 01:45:05,150
With, you know, in the jungle,

1332
01:45:05,970 --> 01:45:08,890
with access to good food,

1333
01:45:09,690 --> 01:45:12,630
clean air, you know, the ocean, all of that.

1334
01:45:13,910 --> 01:45:16,230
And invite content creators

1335
01:45:16,230 --> 01:45:18,430
without any strings attached,

1336
01:45:18,910 --> 01:45:19,950
just to hang out.

1337
01:45:21,770 --> 01:45:23,610
You know, our door was open

1338
01:45:23,610 --> 01:45:26,110
to a number of content creators.

1339
01:45:26,110 --> 01:45:33,710
and we didn't really ask for anything in return let's just hang out and what played out just

1340
01:45:33,710 --> 01:45:41,510
organically at the place was um they ended up talking a lot about you know open networks and

1341
01:45:41,510 --> 01:45:48,750
kind of empowering uh users like a lot of these content creators are quite familiar with

1342
01:45:48,750 --> 01:45:55,250
uh censorship right like they know based on what happened in the last five years

1343
01:45:55,250 --> 01:45:59,990
what they're allowed to talk about and what they're not allowed to talk about and these people are

1344
01:45:59,990 --> 01:46:07,730
are not are not they're not cool with the status quo so uh we didn't really have any

1345
01:46:07,730 --> 01:46:17,830
uh clear sort of deliberables or kind of um metrics of what would make this

1346
01:46:17,830 --> 01:46:27,370
initiative a success or not we just wanted to hang out with content creators who are

1347
01:46:27,370 --> 01:46:34,870
whose values are aligned with ours and see what happens and what happened was is we made friends

1348
01:46:34,870 --> 01:46:42,690
with a lot of people and i think when the time comes when we think you know um nostor and

1349
01:46:42,690 --> 01:46:45,090
Primal are

1350
01:46:45,090 --> 01:46:46,330
ready

1351
01:46:46,330 --> 01:46:48,690
in terms of

1352
01:46:48,690 --> 01:46:51,430
features and polish and kind of

1353
01:46:51,430 --> 01:46:53,510
ease of use when we're ready

1354
01:46:53,510 --> 01:46:54,630
for the mainstream

1355
01:46:54,630 --> 01:46:57,650
you know we have some friends

1356
01:46:57,650 --> 01:46:59,190
that we can call upon

1357
01:46:59,190 --> 01:47:01,690
and that's

1358
01:47:01,690 --> 01:47:03,770
basically the idea behind Primal House

1359
01:47:03,770 --> 01:47:05,010
and whoever hung out

1360
01:47:05,010 --> 01:47:22,967
I didn get to go unfortunately but Marco spent some time there and paul of course was hosting it and i met many people who uh ended up going there and it like everyone had a really good time

1361
01:47:22,967 --> 01:47:30,887
and we had some great brainstorms come out of that place uh so uh it was always going to be

1362
01:47:30,887 --> 01:47:34,427
like a limited amount of time i think we got it for something like three months

1363
01:47:34,427 --> 01:47:42,647
so that's basically that's basically it we may do it again we may do it at the same location we

1364
01:47:42,647 --> 01:47:50,827
may do it at a different location it's kind of when things align will react but we're not actively

1365
01:47:50,827 --> 01:47:51,827
pursuing anything

1366
01:47:51,827 --> 01:48:00,667
so no more primal house at least not for a while you seem you seem disappointed

1367
01:48:00,667 --> 01:48:12,927
hey exactly you better be ready to show up with your shirt off right and a straight face right

1368
01:48:12,927 --> 01:48:22,887
hey if that's the only good thing that comes out of it that's probably not bad

1369
01:48:30,667 --> 01:48:37,567
I think we're just going to keep doing what we've been doing for the past couple of years,

1370
01:48:37,567 --> 01:48:46,967
which is identify parts of the Nostra protocol, which we deem promising,

1371
01:48:47,687 --> 01:48:54,507
and build great experiences around those specs for users and for creators,

1372
01:48:54,947 --> 01:49:00,047
and stand up infrastructure that's reliable and kind of high performance,

1373
01:49:00,047 --> 01:49:05,407
so that the whole thing kind of comes together.

1374
01:49:06,847 --> 01:49:09,767
That in itself is quite a bit of work.

1375
01:49:10,007 --> 01:49:13,507
I don't think we need much more than that this time.

1376
01:49:13,727 --> 01:49:15,527
Our hands are full, let me tell you.

1377
01:49:26,267 --> 01:49:26,827
Yeah.

1378
01:49:30,047 --> 01:49:46,487
Thank you.

1379
01:49:49,227 --> 01:49:50,667
No, I think this was great.

1380
01:49:51,267 --> 01:49:52,827
Good conversation, Milian.

1381
01:49:53,087 --> 01:49:58,307
I was afraid that we'd covered everything we needed to cover when you were here last.

1382
01:49:58,307 --> 01:50:00,207
but I think we've gone even longer

1383
01:50:00,207 --> 01:50:01,807
than we did on that episode

1384
01:50:01,807 --> 01:50:04,867
there was a lot to talk about

1385
01:50:04,867 --> 01:50:06,127
so that was good

1386
01:50:06,127 --> 01:50:07,347
that was fun

1387
01:50:07,347 --> 01:50:14,227
oh and the

1388
01:50:14,227 --> 01:50:15,947
YouTube replacement let's not forget

1389
01:50:15,947 --> 01:50:18,227
it's gonna be

1390
01:50:18,227 --> 01:50:20,047
it's gonna be a hell of a couple of weeks

1391
01:50:20,047 --> 01:50:20,867
let me tell you

1392
01:50:20,867 --> 01:50:23,587
you've

1393
01:50:23,587 --> 01:50:32,467
also

1394
01:50:32,467 --> 01:50:33,987
Milian it won't be the

1395
01:50:33,987 --> 01:50:36,547
first mountain you'll have to

1396
01:50:36,547 --> 01:50:38,327
pull an all nighter

1397
01:50:38,327 --> 01:50:40,467
climbing up this month

1398
01:50:40,467 --> 01:50:42,507
nice

1399
01:50:42,507 --> 01:50:44,507
this is routine for us now

1400
01:50:44,507 --> 01:50:48,547
alright well appreciate

1401
01:50:48,547 --> 01:50:50,627
you guys stopping

1402
01:50:50,627 --> 01:50:52,087
by again Milian and

1403
01:50:52,087 --> 01:50:57,187
and sharing all of these exciting developments with us.

1404
01:50:58,347 --> 01:51:02,727
And we will continue watching with a lot of interest,

1405
01:51:02,907 --> 01:51:03,847
using, of course.

1406
01:51:04,507 --> 01:51:06,807
Looking forward to continue using Primal Studio,

1407
01:51:07,187 --> 01:51:08,647
loving what I've seen so far,

1408
01:51:09,347 --> 01:51:12,907
and can't wait to see what's in the hopper.

1409
01:51:14,167 --> 01:51:16,127
Thanks very much for having me, guys.

1410
01:51:16,127 --> 01:51:16,727
That was fun.

1411
01:51:22,087 --> 01:51:35,687
Goodbye.