1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,080 Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,940 on the intersection of NOSTER and Bitcoin protocols. 3 00:00:11,700 --> 00:00:16,700 Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current 4 00:00:16,700 --> 00:00:21,600 thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers, 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:22,780 doers, and plebs. 6 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,360 All right, we are live. 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:39,500 Welcome, gentle plebs, to the Lightning Laced Airwaves. Today is Friday the 8th of August and it is 5pm on the dot on the east coast of the United States. 8 00:00:39,500 --> 00:00:48,860 At the time of recording, this is episode 124 of Pleb Chain Radio and we have a fun show ahead of you today. 9 00:00:48,860 --> 00:00:55,460 Rev Hoddle, mad scientist and decentralized permaculturist 10 00:00:55,460 --> 00:01:00,340 joins us to talk about a recap of Lake Satoshi 11 00:01:00,340 --> 00:01:05,880 and what other mad experiments he's been involved in 12 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:07,180 since the last time he's been here 13 00:01:07,180 --> 00:01:12,960 and I dare say, Kirabi, this is a hat trick of appearances for Rev Hoddle 14 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:15,880 so looking forward to that conversation 15 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,820 each one has been better than the previous 16 00:01:18,820 --> 00:01:21,700 and I trust this will be no different. 17 00:01:22,380 --> 00:01:23,380 And just a reminder, folks, 18 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,920 if you are listening to this show on Apple or Spotify, 19 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:28,860 first of all, thank you for listening, 20 00:01:29,140 --> 00:01:31,080 but I would urge you to hit pause 21 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,360 and switch over to the Fountain Podcasting app 22 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:34,920 where you can earn some stats 23 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,080 and support the Valley for Value revolution as you listen. 24 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:40,260 And while you're there, 25 00:01:40,820 --> 00:01:43,720 we would appreciate it if you hit that subscribe button 26 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:48,340 that will earn you access to bonus episodes. 27 00:01:48,340 --> 00:01:59,420 This show is streamed live on Zap.stream and any other Nostra client that supports streaming such as Amethyst and Nostra. 28 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:05,260 And QW, you have been paying attention to Bitcoin and Nostra culture in the last week. 29 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:07,020 What have you witnessed? 30 00:02:07,020 --> 00:02:16,920 yeah i just actually got um and i think it was two days ago i got an email because i'm i'm actually 31 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:24,100 in the phantom power mailing list uh phantom power media uh or music well you know the costello deal 32 00:02:24,100 --> 00:02:32,220 but uh i guess bitcoin park this wednesday this upcoming wednesday the 13th is doing a 33 00:02:32,220 --> 00:02:39,320 Toonster event, Avi. There's going to be multiple musicians. It's, I haven't looked very much into it 34 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:44,880 because it's kind of just was announced and it seems like that normally you don't announce 35 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:51,520 things so close to an event. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I too received that 36 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:59,920 phantom email. I must have been signed up for that mailing list as well. Thanks, T.W. 37 00:02:59,920 --> 00:03:22,340 Yeah, but open mic. What's up, brother? It's going to be on Tudester. So I will be chiming in or looking into that. Anybody in the Nashville area, Bitcoin Park area, bring a friend, make it a cultural thing, enjoy some music. And I'm sure you're going to hear music from Ainsley and the Costellos. 38 00:03:22,340 --> 00:03:25,360 I don't even know who the roster is, honestly. 39 00:03:25,580 --> 00:03:27,560 It was just announced, so I didn't really look. 40 00:03:27,820 --> 00:03:33,820 But anybody Wednesday, anybody around the globe on Noster, Toonster.io, 41 00:03:34,380 --> 00:03:38,880 it's 5 to 8 p.m. Nashville. 42 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:40,260 Is that East Coast time, Avi? 43 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,240 I think Nashville might be Central. 44 00:03:44,180 --> 00:03:46,300 Okay, it's on the cusp there. 45 00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:53,140 So either 4 to, I guess, 5 or 6 p.m. Eastern time, whatever Nashville time is. 46 00:03:53,500 --> 00:03:54,880 So keep a lookout. 47 00:03:55,520 --> 00:04:02,100 Another thing that happened, and this was two days ago, Avi, the tornado cash ruling came. 48 00:04:03,020 --> 00:04:08,760 So the conviction of Roman Storm, the co-founder of the cryptocurrency mixer tornado cash, 49 00:04:09,340 --> 00:04:12,120 it sparked widespread concern with the crypto industry. 50 00:04:12,380 --> 00:04:16,060 Legal experts warning it may set dangerous precedent. 51 00:04:16,300 --> 00:04:19,940 for open source developers and privacy-focused technologies. 52 00:04:20,580 --> 00:04:24,560 Basically, Roman was convicted of being a money-transmitting business. 53 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:26,660 He did not. 54 00:04:26,860 --> 00:04:32,520 The other charges that did not work was conspiracy and the money-laundering one. 55 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:42,260 But I think the big thing for us as node runners or anybody that's maybe even relay runners, Avi, is this transmitting. 56 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:44,380 He did not touch it. 57 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:45,500 It's basically code. 58 00:04:46,500 --> 00:04:49,960 It essentially sets a dangerous precedent for open source developers. 59 00:04:50,760 --> 00:05:03,640 It emphasized that Storm did not control the assets transferred through Tornado Cash and that the ruling could extend to criminalizing developers of messaging apps, web browsers, or any software that may be misused. 60 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:10,280 So it kind of harps on the transmitting portion when you're not actually doing the act of it. 61 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:16,260 But because you are transmitting it, you know, where does that precedent, how far does it go? 62 00:05:16,420 --> 00:05:17,820 Is it a slippery slope, Bobby? 63 00:05:18,620 --> 00:05:23,400 You know, I have a question for you, QW, because you've been following this a lot closer than I have. 64 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:31,060 I've just been heads down on certain things over the last two weeks, and I've only just emerged. 65 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,400 So I haven't followed the Tornado Cash trial. 66 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:36,280 It's brand new. 67 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:41,120 There's probably a lot of stuff that needs to be talked about. 68 00:05:41,140 --> 00:05:42,080 Here's a question for you. 69 00:05:42,580 --> 00:05:46,320 Again, and I'm asking from a place of just not following this. 70 00:05:47,060 --> 00:05:52,300 Is the money transmitting charge something to do with Ethereum's? 71 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,460 Because Clonator Cash was an Ethereum mixer, correct? 72 00:05:56,940 --> 00:05:57,140 Right. 73 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,040 Is it something to do with- 74 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:05,100 And Ethereum put, I think, 500,000 into this thing to essentially fight this. 75 00:06:05,100 --> 00:06:05,560 Yeah. 76 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:15,460 Now, does it have something to do with the account-based structure of how Ethereum moves versus the UTXO-based structure of Bitcoin? 77 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:21,560 So, for instance, a Wasabi CoinJoin or a Whirlpool, Samurai Whirlpool, whatever it might be, right? 78 00:06:22,180 --> 00:06:29,380 Those would architecturally be very different because Ethereum is account-based and Bitcoin is UTXO-based. 79 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,740 So, are you aware if that had to do with the money transmission? 80 00:06:34,740 --> 00:06:36,540 I don't, but I'd love to know more. 81 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,600 I'd love to maybe have a show on this too, 82 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,260 because it just seems like there's a lot of, 83 00:06:42,860 --> 00:06:46,760 well, number one, the samurai basically pleading guilty. 84 00:06:47,340 --> 00:06:49,240 Then the tornado cash, 85 00:06:49,860 --> 00:06:53,700 actually the jury found him guilty. 86 00:06:54,420 --> 00:06:59,400 So you're seeing these kind of not winning in court type of mentality going. 87 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:01,420 So I don't know. 88 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,060 I mean, at the end of the day, isn't it just code? 89 00:07:04,740 --> 00:07:23,180 Yeah, I mean, if that is what the ruling found, that it's a piece of decentralized code that happened to be running on, happened to be created by someone, and they're being found guilty of that, of, I mean, money transmitter, first of all, it's a completely made up thing, right? 90 00:07:23,180 --> 00:07:29,760 The government makes up stuff just to put people in jail, to exert their monopoly on violence. 91 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:47,420 But even set that aside for a second, and accept that it's a fair law, I think it sets a terrible precedent for node runners, for coordinators, for coin joins more broadly. 92 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:49,700 So yeah, I don't know what this means. 93 00:07:49,700 --> 00:08:01,700 for relays avi nasta relays yeah i mean money uh any kind of nefarious acts uh that that uh 94 00:08:01,700 --> 00:08:07,800 you know you have no part in but you happen to be the the relay of it uh it's all it's all up in the 95 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:13,780 air and we'll see i mean they're obviously uh most likely gonna kind of uh appeal this this this 96 00:08:13,780 --> 00:08:19,120 this ruling. And, you know, maybe the war is not done yet, but it's something that we'll see. 97 00:08:19,900 --> 00:08:25,180 And that brings me to a bigger point, Operation Chokepoint. You know, we talked about Chokepoint 98 00:08:25,180 --> 00:08:33,760 in regards to Bitcoin and the on-off ramps, but freedom, the freedom chokepoint, the privacy 99 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:41,460 chokepoint. When I say chokepoint, you know, 10.0, I'm obviously kidding. But the reality is the 100 00:08:41,460 --> 00:08:44,840 Privacies are being stripped at every level, and they have been for decades. 101 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:54,420 And I've been seeing in the news lately, like the last three, four weeks, it's nonstop about protecting the children, fighting terrorism. 102 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,940 So we're just going to keep pushing this KYC digital ID. 103 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:07,260 The latest one, I think, yesterday was we're basically we're on the cusp of KYC to play video games via stream, Steam, Discord. 104 00:09:07,260 --> 00:09:12,040 board, you're basically going to have to put your picture up to like prove that you're, 105 00:09:12,180 --> 00:09:14,100 you know, a certain age and whatnot. 106 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,580 Even Roblox, it's a children's game. 107 00:09:16,660 --> 00:09:19,480 It's a children's app on the phone, on the, you know, mobile. 108 00:09:20,140 --> 00:09:22,020 And maybe they got a PC version. 109 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:22,700 I have no idea. 110 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:23,400 It's Roblox. 111 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:31,000 But they developed an open source AI tool called Sentinel to proactively detect early signs 112 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,900 of potential child endangerment. 113 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:34,300 Early signs. 114 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:36,820 What the hell does that mean? 115 00:09:37,260 --> 00:09:42,440 Uh, so, you know, they're, they're basically just going to be collecting as much data as 116 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:47,320 you can, um, to, uh, to, uh, while you're just playing a game. 117 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:52,140 So it's, it's not normal behavior, uh, but the governments and corporations are acting 118 00:09:52,140 --> 00:09:55,980 like it is, and it's going to be normalizing it to the children too. 119 00:09:56,220 --> 00:09:59,460 So, uh, KYC, there's, there's no end in sight. 120 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:03,060 So that's the privacy choke point. 121 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:04,460 That's my, that's my thoughts. 122 00:10:04,460 --> 00:10:12,900 you know qw it's a real shame i have to say that none of us have the agency to watch this 123 00:10:12,900 --> 00:10:18,080 and recognize that it's wrong and do something about it it's a real shame we don't have that 124 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:23,600 agency and you know what's an even bigger shame qw we don't have the tools we don't have the tools 125 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:30,320 to disappear completely to lead a normal healthy and peaceful life right there are i mean there is 126 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:36,120 There is no money that you can take off the grid, that you can transact in privately. 127 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:46,380 There is no communication network that you can interact with your peers in a censorship-resistant way. 128 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:47,720 It's a real shame, QW. 129 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,960 And the other shame is that there are no people. 130 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:55,040 The choke point is just it's pushing everyone to Nostra, essentially. 131 00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:56,760 Pushing everyone to Bitcoin. 132 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:00,940 Look at the Freedom Convoy in Canada. 133 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:02,600 What money did they end up using? 134 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:04,740 So it's just a matter of time. 135 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,080 Pressure creates diamonds, and we're here. 136 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:08,940 We are the diamond. 137 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,700 So the sermon today, Avi, from hands to freedom, 138 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,640 basically from farm to freedom, proof of creation. 139 00:11:19,380 --> 00:11:22,160 In our Bitcoin community, words fly like sparks, 140 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,800 ideas blaze like fire, and intellect builds a bolder future. 141 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:30,620 But a new tide rises, a circular economy of creators. 142 00:11:30,620 --> 00:11:37,200 These plebs trade proof of creation, tallow-soap shaped hands, lamb and eggs raised under skies, 143 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:49,805 art born from the soul raw milk leather goods each a testament to work and will There power in this When you create with your mind your hands your time you not just making things you forging 144 00:11:49,805 --> 00:11:55,645 freedom. You're saying, I am here, I create. And when you trade these proofs for Bitcoin, 145 00:11:55,905 --> 00:12:01,045 sovereign permissionless money, you claim your independence. No gatekeepers, no chains, 146 00:12:01,245 --> 00:12:07,265 just your work, your worth, and your way. Feel the pulse of this economy in every stitch, 147 00:12:07,265 --> 00:12:13,545 every harvest, every trade. It's the rhythm of liberty. So what will you create? A tool, 148 00:12:13,785 --> 00:12:19,185 a meal, a vision? Your creation is your power. Trade it for Bitcoin. And you're not just joining 149 00:12:19,185 --> 00:12:26,225 an economy. You're building a free world. Step forward, create, trade, live free from farm to 150 00:12:26,225 --> 00:12:32,925 table, from heart to horizon. Let's shape the future together. And I have a creator. I have 151 00:12:32,925 --> 00:12:40,545 someone forging freedom. And that is our guest today, Avi. Welcome, the forger of freedom, Rev 152 00:12:40,545 --> 00:12:47,745 Hoddle. Wow, my internet cut out while you were reading that. I didn't hear one second of it, 153 00:12:47,805 --> 00:12:53,445 but it sounded like it was pretty darn cool. And I caught the end of it. I'm really happy to be 154 00:12:53,445 --> 00:12:58,525 here, guys. Thanks for having me on again. I'm a big fan of your show. I listen to as many episodes 155 00:12:58,525 --> 00:12:59,225 as I can. 156 00:13:00,405 --> 00:13:02,425 And I'm really stoked to 157 00:13:02,425 --> 00:13:03,385 talk today. 158 00:13:03,925 --> 00:13:04,425 And you know, 159 00:13:04,565 --> 00:13:08,125 it's weird. When you live a Bitcoin 160 00:13:08,125 --> 00:13:09,145 integrated lifestyle 161 00:13:09,145 --> 00:13:12,325 and you're focusing on your self-sovereignty, 162 00:13:12,945 --> 00:13:14,445 the more you 163 00:13:14,445 --> 00:13:15,865 realize you can't do it alone. 164 00:13:16,625 --> 00:13:18,005 And you need 165 00:13:18,005 --> 00:13:19,485 a community 166 00:13:19,485 --> 00:13:22,185 behind you to participate 167 00:13:22,185 --> 00:13:24,105 with, to trade with, and 168 00:13:24,105 --> 00:13:25,785 to build with. 169 00:13:26,605 --> 00:13:28,185 And it just so happens that 170 00:13:28,185 --> 00:13:32,445 when you start working, you find these people through the lens of Bitcoin, through the lens of Noster, 171 00:13:33,105 --> 00:13:40,205 that these are some pretty capable folks, and the power of all these individuals when they cooperate is amplified. 172 00:13:40,765 --> 00:13:45,325 And I'm sure we're going to get into some more deeper details about that when we talk about Lake Satoshi. 173 00:13:46,565 --> 00:13:50,685 But for now, I've been focusing mainly on my local meetup cultures. 174 00:13:51,885 --> 00:13:57,345 I've been going to one Bitcoin meetup a week, if not two. 175 00:13:58,185 --> 00:14:15,345 And so I've been putting the work in, and the incentive behind that is to, one, spread and distribute this cultural capital of the culture of Bitcoin, and two, is to share the value of the products that I'm producing and earn Bitcoin in return. 176 00:14:17,245 --> 00:14:24,845 You know, Rev, I love all of that and looking forward to digging into every single one of those points that you brought up and more. 177 00:14:25,265 --> 00:14:27,785 But before that, Rev, I have a burning question. 178 00:14:28,185 --> 00:14:29,985 as we always do. 179 00:14:30,945 --> 00:14:33,145 It has come to my attention, Rev, 180 00:14:33,345 --> 00:14:39,605 that there is more than one rev.hodl on Noster. 181 00:14:40,385 --> 00:14:41,545 Is this true? 182 00:14:42,085 --> 00:14:43,905 Is there more than one rev.hodl? 183 00:14:44,965 --> 00:14:46,665 Yeah, man, there's a guy, 184 00:14:46,865 --> 00:14:49,205 he goes by Reverend Hodl. 185 00:14:49,325 --> 00:14:50,565 I'm just Rev, you know. 186 00:14:51,425 --> 00:14:52,605 And there's Reverend Hodl, 187 00:14:52,745 --> 00:14:54,965 and he's a pretty popular guy, you know. 188 00:14:54,965 --> 00:14:58,165 I haven't personally met him or really 189 00:14:58,165 --> 00:14:59,945 Talked to him too much 190 00:14:59,945 --> 00:15:01,405 I've met him in real life 191 00:15:01,405 --> 00:15:04,325 Avi, I've met both of them in real life 192 00:15:04,325 --> 00:15:05,165 Both Rebs 193 00:15:05,165 --> 00:15:07,225 I've seen them, both Rebs 194 00:15:07,225 --> 00:15:08,205 It is a glitch in the matrix 195 00:15:08,205 --> 00:15:11,645 Yeah 196 00:15:11,645 --> 00:15:13,665 And when he introduced himself 197 00:15:13,665 --> 00:15:16,485 He knew that Rev Hoddle's been on our show 198 00:15:16,485 --> 00:15:17,025 Twice 199 00:15:17,025 --> 00:15:19,005 He's also a fan of the show 200 00:15:19,005 --> 00:15:21,205 He actually works 201 00:15:21,205 --> 00:15:23,425 Long and hard with the 202 00:15:23,425 --> 00:15:26,725 Phantom Power group 203 00:15:26,725 --> 00:15:28,385 the value for value 204 00:15:28,385 --> 00:15:30,025 all that so he's 205 00:15:30,025 --> 00:15:32,685 part of the mission 206 00:15:32,685 --> 00:15:34,365 so shout out 207 00:15:34,365 --> 00:15:35,525 Reverend Hoddle 208 00:15:35,525 --> 00:15:38,445 Reverend Hoddle is definitely if you're not following him 209 00:15:38,445 --> 00:15:40,705 another guy worth following along with 210 00:15:40,705 --> 00:15:42,125 definitely doing his part 211 00:15:42,125 --> 00:15:44,565 to build whatever we're building 212 00:15:44,565 --> 00:15:45,465 here 213 00:15:45,465 --> 00:15:50,545 but yes indeed there are two revs 214 00:15:50,545 --> 00:15:52,565 one's reverend and the other's 215 00:15:52,565 --> 00:15:53,305 me rev 216 00:15:53,305 --> 00:16:01,985 excellent well i appreciate the clarification which which one are you going to visit on sunday 217 00:16:01,985 --> 00:16:08,365 you gotta you can only choose one rev well it depends on how the show goes 218 00:16:08,365 --> 00:16:11,125 pressure's on 219 00:16:11,125 --> 00:16:18,585 so you you mentioned uh yeah because the last time we've talked you you know you you were 220 00:16:18,585 --> 00:16:23,325 traveling to different meetups and I can't believe you said one to two a week. 221 00:16:24,605 --> 00:16:27,245 Yeah, man, I've expanded my range a little bit. 222 00:16:28,005 --> 00:16:31,965 But are you going, you're going to the same ones, right? One to two a week. You're not 223 00:16:31,965 --> 00:16:36,745 finding these random meetups and hitting one or two different ones a week. 224 00:16:37,085 --> 00:16:42,625 No, no, you're right. So there's regular meetups in my area, enough to where I could probably do 225 00:16:42,625 --> 00:16:48,085 comfortably six different meetups a month, let's say. Now some of those, there's a couple of them 226 00:16:48,085 --> 00:16:51,705 that are on the fringes that are reaching about two and a half hours away, 227 00:16:52,325 --> 00:16:55,885 where that becomes a challenge because I'm basically committing my entire day 228 00:16:55,885 --> 00:16:57,885 to attending that meetup. 229 00:16:58,025 --> 00:17:02,385 And so there's got to be some capital involved there, some flow. 230 00:17:03,405 --> 00:17:06,525 I'm not just going to talk about Bitcoin if I'm driving two and a half hours, 231 00:17:06,585 --> 00:17:07,005 you know what I mean? 232 00:17:09,245 --> 00:17:14,045 But, you know, anywhere from 30 minutes, 40 minutes, an hour, hour and a half, 233 00:17:14,585 --> 00:17:15,865 I'll do the drive. 234 00:17:18,085 --> 00:17:25,525 Yeah. And how hard are you pumping the velocity of Bitcoin one to two times a week in person? 235 00:17:26,965 --> 00:17:47,465 Well, so, yeah, I show up with my stuff and I've been experimenting now with not just my own things, but aggregating other pled products and distributing them, you know, in an analog fashion, I guess, not through Noster, let's say, at the meetups as well. 236 00:17:48,085 --> 00:17:50,845 which, because I'm finding that, you know, 237 00:17:51,185 --> 00:17:53,905 when somebody buys a jar of maple syrup for me, 238 00:17:54,345 --> 00:17:57,245 a month later they still have not finished that jar of maple syrup, 239 00:17:57,945 --> 00:18:01,045 but they still want, you know, they're still looking to spend their Bitcoin. 240 00:18:02,105 --> 00:18:06,665 And so can I find some other product good that they want instead? 241 00:18:08,145 --> 00:18:13,985 And I don't necessarily have this consistency of the production level. 242 00:18:13,985 --> 00:18:16,585 I'm not at a certain scale where I can just 243 00:18:16,585 --> 00:18:18,505 make all different kinds of stuff all the time 244 00:18:18,505 --> 00:18:20,685 so I need some help, I need more plebs producing 245 00:18:20,685 --> 00:18:22,145 stuff so that I can 246 00:18:22,145 --> 00:18:24,725 get it from them and I'll do the work 247 00:18:24,725 --> 00:18:25,625 of taking it to the meet up 248 00:18:25,625 --> 00:18:27,805 to distribute it 249 00:18:27,805 --> 00:18:30,705 I'm picturing this 250 00:18:30,705 --> 00:18:32,705 old school wagon, the trading 251 00:18:32,705 --> 00:18:34,805 wagon that pulls 252 00:18:34,805 --> 00:18:36,785 up and you lift up the 253 00:18:36,785 --> 00:18:38,785 side, maybe it's like the old medicine 254 00:18:38,785 --> 00:18:40,585 man, the doctor selling that potion 255 00:18:40,585 --> 00:18:43,045 in the town square 256 00:18:43,045 --> 00:18:48,785 but rev pulls up to the uh the meetup and everyone's like what's he got today uh what's 257 00:18:48,785 --> 00:18:54,905 the special of the day uh we got some fresh fresh lamb uh we got some uh some some rabbit 258 00:18:54,905 --> 00:19:01,625 fresh out of the uh maybe you know just just right off the yard uh do you do you have feature 259 00:19:01,625 --> 00:19:07,005 products do you have i mean everything comes in cycles right because when you produce things uh 260 00:19:07,005 --> 00:19:12,365 sometimes it's fresher than other times of the year sometimes it's fattier sometimes it's leaner 261 00:19:12,365 --> 00:19:15,125 how is your sales pitch on this? 262 00:19:15,265 --> 00:19:16,545 Have you been getting better? 263 00:19:17,205 --> 00:19:19,465 Has your crops been stronger? 264 00:19:19,905 --> 00:19:20,625 All these things. 265 00:19:21,065 --> 00:19:23,525 So, I mean, you pretty much nailed it. 266 00:19:23,925 --> 00:19:29,845 And so the idea is that there's a lot of these old things 267 00:19:29,845 --> 00:19:35,565 that the way things used to work maybe 150 years ago or more 268 00:19:35,565 --> 00:19:38,105 that have kind of fallen by the wayside, 269 00:19:38,405 --> 00:19:41,545 maybe due to subsidy, maybe due to centralization, 270 00:19:41,545 --> 00:19:45,105 the erosion of the cultural capital 271 00:19:45,105 --> 00:19:47,965 technology improving, whatever 272 00:19:47,965 --> 00:19:52,285 but now, because I'm trying to do everything I do 273 00:19:52,285 --> 00:19:54,085 through the context of Bitcoin first 274 00:19:54,085 --> 00:19:58,585 in another show, I think it was the last one 275 00:19:58,585 --> 00:19:59,885 we were talking about pioneering 276 00:19:59,885 --> 00:20:00,985 or maybe it was the first one 277 00:20:00,985 --> 00:20:04,805 but now, when you try and operate 278 00:20:04,805 --> 00:20:06,165 and live your life completely 279 00:20:06,165 --> 00:20:08,605 through the realm and context of Bitcoin 280 00:20:08,605 --> 00:20:10,665 participating in Bitcoin first 281 00:20:10,665 --> 00:20:14,665 all these old mechanisms become useful again 282 00:20:14,665 --> 00:20:19,265 and so to be the guy, the traveling salesman, the gypsy 283 00:20:19,265 --> 00:20:22,965 is actually a viable way to live now 284 00:20:22,965 --> 00:20:25,645 because you can go from meetup to meetup 285 00:20:25,645 --> 00:20:27,305 you can get stuff from one meetup 286 00:20:27,305 --> 00:20:30,145 bring it to the next meetup, sell it at that meetup 287 00:20:30,145 --> 00:20:33,985 because those people don't have the desire or need to travel 288 00:20:33,985 --> 00:20:35,565 the two hours between them 289 00:20:35,565 --> 00:20:40,025 and you aggregate the goods and services 290 00:20:40,025 --> 00:20:44,465 the goods, the products that are being produced in your local area. 291 00:20:45,445 --> 00:20:51,605 And the best way I use, the number one way I forecast the demand for one meetup 292 00:20:51,605 --> 00:20:55,405 is I simply just go on whatever the various group chats there are, 293 00:20:55,605 --> 00:20:58,905 whether that's Signal, Telegram, for that particular meetup, 294 00:20:59,245 --> 00:21:01,085 and I say, hey, I'm coming to the meetup this month. 295 00:21:01,645 --> 00:21:02,645 Here's what I got for sale. 296 00:21:03,485 --> 00:21:07,885 If I have a lot of eggs, for example, I might put the eggs on sale 297 00:21:07,885 --> 00:21:10,425 just so I create an incentive to sell a lot of them. 298 00:21:10,525 --> 00:21:13,985 So I reduce my stock and I don't have eggs go bad, right? 299 00:21:15,405 --> 00:21:16,905 And just put it out there. 300 00:21:17,145 --> 00:21:19,565 And so I get a feel for where there's interest. 301 00:21:19,945 --> 00:21:22,385 And then if there's a lot of interest in a particular product, 302 00:21:22,385 --> 00:21:25,605 I might bring a little extra because I know when I show up there, 303 00:21:25,665 --> 00:21:27,605 there's going to be people that didn't see that group chat 304 00:21:27,605 --> 00:21:28,705 or aren't part of it or whatever, 305 00:21:28,705 --> 00:21:30,505 and they're probably going to be interested in that thing too. 306 00:21:33,045 --> 00:21:35,945 You know, you mentioned, because you kind of pictured it like, 307 00:21:35,945 --> 00:21:44,505 you put it in a frame of kind of the old way or gypsy. But to me, our FDA, our food has been so 308 00:21:44,505 --> 00:21:52,805 abused, adulterated, completely just wrecked as far as nutritional value. It's amazing that we go 309 00:21:52,805 --> 00:22:01,065 back to now, I'm buying it off the side of the road and that's better. It's just kind of weird 310 00:22:01,065 --> 00:22:08,885 how the paradigm has shifted to kind of farm to table. For me, you buy it from a store, you think, 311 00:22:09,005 --> 00:22:12,945 oh, it's going to be good. But then you find out, oh, it's got all these preservatives and it's got 312 00:22:12,945 --> 00:22:19,245 all this antibiotics in it. It's got all this shit, essentially. If I'm buying from Rev, I trust 313 00:22:19,245 --> 00:22:25,485 you. And there's a web of trust there, I suppose. How has that been trying to grow that trust? 314 00:22:25,485 --> 00:22:29,305 you know obviously you get returning customers that makes you feel good 315 00:22:29,305 --> 00:22:35,085 I think of like Soap Miner he has amazing soap and I don't want to buy 316 00:22:35,085 --> 00:22:38,825 anything else anymore and it's not like the FDA tested it I 317 00:22:38,825 --> 00:22:42,725 just know it's damn good soap maybe talk a little bit about quality 318 00:22:42,725 --> 00:22:46,605 and and how it feels to have returning customers 319 00:22:46,605 --> 00:22:50,945 well so this is this is a challenge you know because 320 00:22:50,945 --> 00:22:54,745 when you're a lot of people when they when they first get into 321 00:22:54,745 --> 00:22:59,325 Bitcoin, they don't understand what it's like to deal with the volatility of the price. 322 00:23:00,205 --> 00:23:03,825 And especially when your stack is young and you don't have some time under your belt, 323 00:23:04,605 --> 00:23:09,965 that volatility can be extremely emotionally challenging. And once you start to play around 324 00:23:09,965 --> 00:23:12,905 with Bitcoin for a little while, you start to think about living the sovereign lifestyle, 325 00:23:12,905 --> 00:23:19,045 and a lot of people tend towards homesteading. And then they start to homestead, and it's maybe 326 00:23:19,045 --> 00:23:34,591 shocking to people when they realize like you think Bitcoin is volatile nature is even more volatile than that And so to produce a consistent high quality product year after year I realizing is challenging Now it not to say that 327 00:23:34,591 --> 00:23:42,011 one year it's total trash, and I'm going to sell total trash, but there's like, maybe you could 328 00:23:42,011 --> 00:23:46,691 think about it in terms of like wine, right? Like some years you just have those perfect conditions, 329 00:23:46,691 --> 00:23:52,331 and the wine turns out amazing and the next year you can't do the same thing over again. 330 00:23:52,650 --> 00:23:54,591 And this has been kind of the case with my lamb. 331 00:23:55,111 --> 00:24:00,231 And I've experimented a little bit in changing the variables, right? 332 00:24:00,331 --> 00:24:04,251 So not only am I finishing the lambs a little bit differently 333 00:24:04,251 --> 00:24:08,391 or the natural conditions are leading to the lambs finishing out differently, 334 00:24:08,511 --> 00:24:09,891 but I'm also using different butchering. 335 00:24:11,851 --> 00:24:15,191 And so the return customers, I'm trying to improve the product every year. 336 00:24:15,191 --> 00:24:19,170 and from the sounds of it, they're happy with the flavor, 337 00:24:19,471 --> 00:24:22,211 but the yield is not necessarily always the same. 338 00:24:22,591 --> 00:24:26,011 Sometimes I've got giant lambs, and the pastures are real good, 339 00:24:26,071 --> 00:24:29,951 and they grow really big, and some years the yield is smaller. 340 00:24:30,791 --> 00:24:36,091 And so when you buy one lamb from me, you might be getting 35 pounds of meat one year 341 00:24:36,091 --> 00:24:39,571 and only 25 the next, and that's a pretty big difference. 342 00:24:40,231 --> 00:24:43,851 But like you said, because I'm focusing on the quality, 343 00:24:43,851 --> 00:24:47,791 and you're paying the same price per pound essentially regardless. 344 00:24:48,811 --> 00:24:53,170 It's just some years I got a lot, some years I don't have a lot to meet that demand. 345 00:24:54,991 --> 00:24:59,591 And so in the example of when you get to Soap Miner, 346 00:25:00,151 --> 00:25:05,391 it's really a great example here because Soap Miner has figured out this advertising model 347 00:25:05,391 --> 00:25:10,231 of you can zap the rabbit hole recap live stream 348 00:25:10,231 --> 00:25:15,991 And you could just throw 21,000 sats at it multiple times during the show. 349 00:25:16,111 --> 00:25:18,591 And that's like, you know, at this point, what is that? 350 00:25:18,651 --> 00:25:25,191 $25 to get your name out there over and over again on one of the most popular Bitcoin podcasts live. 351 00:25:26,451 --> 00:25:27,231 Zapatizing, man. 352 00:25:27,291 --> 00:25:31,011 And so he's gotten demand now to the point where he can't meet it, right? 353 00:25:33,151 --> 00:25:36,631 I think he recently said, you know, I've got to figure out how to make more soap. 354 00:25:37,551 --> 00:25:39,531 And so this is a good problem to have. 355 00:25:39,531 --> 00:25:45,851 But this also shows you that if he's running out of soap, there's room in the market for other people to make soap. 356 00:25:46,151 --> 00:25:47,131 And this is what we need. 357 00:25:47,631 --> 00:25:59,430 We need to start having so much demand for these products produced by Bitcoiners that when Soap Miner runs out of stock, then people have a second option, a plan B. 358 00:26:00,031 --> 00:26:05,391 And it all comes down to also local, regional stuff, right? 359 00:26:05,391 --> 00:26:08,551 Like Soap Miner is selling its goods and services on Nostra. 360 00:26:08,551 --> 00:26:14,131 So he's got the entire Noster community as his market, right? 361 00:26:14,971 --> 00:26:22,811 But there's a lot of people in my local Bitcoin culture here in Michigan that don't really use Noster or really know SoapMiner at all. 362 00:26:23,170 --> 00:26:25,491 And so there's still plenty of room for me to produce soap. 363 00:26:25,910 --> 00:26:28,291 And I can try and compete with SoapMiner on Noster. 364 00:26:28,531 --> 00:26:31,291 But at the same time, I can access the local markets too. 365 00:26:32,251 --> 00:26:36,071 And I'm getting a little bit off the topic here of the quality and consistency. 366 00:26:36,071 --> 00:26:52,091 But ultimately what we need to be doing as plebs producing products to live on Bitcoin is find a way to figure out what the most consistent demand in your local area is. 367 00:26:52,311 --> 00:26:59,151 And whether that means you go, and I've said this before, but whether that means you actually go and purchase, you use your fiat, right? 368 00:26:59,151 --> 00:27:06,331 You buy that thing that everybody wants, you bring it to the meetup, and you just aggregate for them, sell it to them for the sats, or you produce it yourself. 369 00:27:07,170 --> 00:27:10,291 We just need more people with more options. 370 00:27:10,651 --> 00:27:14,211 I want to be able to go to a Bitcoin meetup and buy my groceries for the month. 371 00:27:15,670 --> 00:27:18,031 That's the goal here at Southwest Michigan where we're at. 372 00:27:18,430 --> 00:27:28,811 We're trying to get the production levels up to the point where when you come to the meetup, you can pretty much spend $100 worth of sats and leave with a pretty good grocery list. 373 00:27:29,151 --> 00:27:30,571 you know, of your staples. 374 00:27:32,711 --> 00:27:35,731 You know, Rev, there is an interesting, 375 00:27:36,551 --> 00:27:42,391 just listening to you say all that about quality and soap. 376 00:27:42,511 --> 00:27:46,751 By the way, shout out to another great Nostra merchant, 377 00:27:47,531 --> 00:27:51,991 Great Key, who makes grass-fed A2 ghee 378 00:27:51,991 --> 00:27:54,891 out from Virginia, I believe. 379 00:27:55,691 --> 00:27:58,170 And another fantastic product that I purchased 380 00:27:58,170 --> 00:27:59,991 with Zaps. 381 00:28:01,331 --> 00:28:02,791 But there is an interesting, 382 00:28:04,111 --> 00:28:06,391 and I dare say stark irony here, 383 00:28:06,391 --> 00:28:10,951 in that you have all of these products 384 00:28:10,951 --> 00:28:12,011 that are priced in Bitcoin. 385 00:28:12,711 --> 00:28:15,071 Most of these vendors are on a Bitcoin standard. 386 00:28:16,191 --> 00:28:18,451 And the prevailing mantra, of course, 387 00:28:18,551 --> 00:28:19,791 is don't trust, verify, 388 00:28:20,151 --> 00:28:23,291 at least at the monetary layer. 389 00:28:24,211 --> 00:28:26,531 But when it comes to merchants, 390 00:28:26,531 --> 00:28:28,930 and especially if it comes to quality, 391 00:28:30,691 --> 00:28:32,751 we've really moved to a reputation 392 00:28:32,751 --> 00:28:36,051 and a web of trust-based model, 393 00:28:36,331 --> 00:28:39,531 which is, QW said that, he trusts you, 394 00:28:39,571 --> 00:28:42,731 so he'll buy stuff off you on the side of a street. 395 00:28:43,170 --> 00:28:44,651 Similar thing, soap mine, right? 396 00:28:44,871 --> 00:28:47,771 So it is interesting that the don't trust verify 397 00:28:47,771 --> 00:28:51,851 has become, well, trust within my web of trust 398 00:28:51,851 --> 00:28:54,331 because it's based purely off of reputation. 399 00:28:54,331 --> 00:28:56,851 there is too much at stake. 400 00:28:57,511 --> 00:29:04,331 But, Avi, if you started fielding the extra orders 401 00:29:04,331 --> 00:29:08,471 and started making tallow soap for me, I might not trust it. 402 00:29:08,871 --> 00:29:12,151 Just because I trust you doesn't mean I trust those hands. 403 00:29:12,371 --> 00:29:12,871 You know what I mean? 404 00:29:13,811 --> 00:29:19,170 Trust, you know, but what I am saying is a trust in the person's craftsmanship. 405 00:29:20,611 --> 00:29:20,831 Correct. 406 00:29:20,831 --> 00:29:25,670 And I think as a merchant, your reputation stems from that, right? 407 00:29:25,711 --> 00:29:27,891 The quality of your craftsmanship. 408 00:29:28,091 --> 00:29:34,151 So it is interesting, Rev, to see that we're moving to a reputation-based economy. 409 00:29:34,371 --> 00:29:36,071 It's baby steps, right? 410 00:29:36,170 --> 00:29:41,031 We're not fully there yet, but with examples like Soapminer, Great Key, and a few others. 411 00:29:42,611 --> 00:29:48,991 And moving away from what someone, I think someone referred to it as a high-velocity trash economy, 412 00:29:48,991 --> 00:29:52,331 which is the general attention economy of the fiat world. 413 00:29:53,391 --> 00:29:55,371 And let me add to that. 414 00:29:55,791 --> 00:29:59,930 Let me add to that because Soap Miner was just, 415 00:30:00,151 --> 00:30:03,430 I just realized he's now going to be selling lip balm, 416 00:30:03,851 --> 00:30:08,091 like lip, like basically, you know, lip moisturizer, lip balm. 417 00:30:08,531 --> 00:30:11,291 And I'm like, I instantly wanted it, but I'm like, well, 418 00:30:11,311 --> 00:30:13,251 it's 118 degrees over here. 419 00:30:13,311 --> 00:30:13,991 How's the shipping? 420 00:30:14,251 --> 00:30:15,611 And he's like, that's not going to work. 421 00:30:15,670 --> 00:30:16,271 I'm like, okay. 422 00:30:16,271 --> 00:30:24,411 but because of his product quality of the soap tallow soap i'm like that 100 the next thing is 423 00:30:24,411 --> 00:30:30,831 going to be just as good so when you build that quality that overflow into the next product is 424 00:30:30,831 --> 00:30:36,551 you know the standards of the person selling it and it's it's going to add to it right 425 00:30:36,551 --> 00:30:43,011 and so once again when it's when it's a reputation-based thing 426 00:30:43,011 --> 00:30:46,251 if there is a problem 427 00:30:46,251 --> 00:30:48,691 I will correct that problem 428 00:30:48,691 --> 00:30:50,551 if there's any issue whatsoever 429 00:30:50,551 --> 00:30:51,811 like the kind of 430 00:30:51,811 --> 00:30:54,351 satisfaction guaranteed or your SAT's back 431 00:30:54,351 --> 00:30:56,411 I live by that 432 00:30:56,411 --> 00:30:58,731 if anybody really just doesn't like it 433 00:30:58,731 --> 00:30:59,711 or for whatever reason 434 00:30:59,711 --> 00:31:02,711 I'll sacrifice that sale 435 00:31:02,711 --> 00:31:04,711 just so that person 436 00:31:04,711 --> 00:31:06,851 is happy and they don't 437 00:31:06,851 --> 00:31:07,891 feel like I scammed them 438 00:31:07,891 --> 00:31:10,111 or pulled a fast one on them 439 00:31:10,111 --> 00:31:11,211 there's this 440 00:31:11,211 --> 00:31:19,351 So Michael Goldstein, right, Bitstein and Pierre Rochard have this Reorg podcast. 441 00:31:19,511 --> 00:31:24,491 So they're going back through all the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute articles that they wrote years ago. 442 00:31:24,731 --> 00:31:27,111 And the most recent one was Everyone's a Scammer. 443 00:31:27,951 --> 00:31:34,851 And in that podcast, they were talking about even the people who are trying to earn Bitcoin, get you to spend their Bitcoin with them are scammers. 444 00:31:34,851 --> 00:31:36,911 and so 445 00:31:36,911 --> 00:31:39,151 but the issue there 446 00:31:39,151 --> 00:31:40,591 with that is that 447 00:31:40,591 --> 00:31:43,051 they are not looking at it through the context of 448 00:31:43,051 --> 00:31:44,811 if you only have bitcoin 449 00:31:44,811 --> 00:31:46,711 you shouldn't spend your bitcoin 450 00:31:46,711 --> 00:31:47,691 because that's impossible right 451 00:31:47,691 --> 00:31:50,331 if you live on bitcoin and all you have is bitcoin 452 00:31:50,331 --> 00:31:53,411 you're basically holding as few dollars as possible 453 00:31:53,411 --> 00:31:54,911 for as short a period of time as possible 454 00:31:54,911 --> 00:31:58,131 and holding as much bitcoin for as long a period of time as possible 455 00:31:58,131 --> 00:31:59,851 you do not want to go through the friction 456 00:31:59,851 --> 00:32:01,991 of going back into the fiat system 457 00:32:01,991 --> 00:32:04,571 if you have the opportunity to spend your sats 458 00:32:04,571 --> 00:32:06,651 that's a way better situation for you. 459 00:32:08,011 --> 00:32:10,011 And so these people producing these products, 460 00:32:10,191 --> 00:32:11,811 when you start to interact with them, 461 00:32:12,271 --> 00:32:15,411 and it's on this Bitcoin standard-based economy, 462 00:32:15,971 --> 00:32:18,671 your satisfaction guaranteed or your sats back. 463 00:32:18,811 --> 00:32:21,911 And it's, like you said, the reputation is incredibly important 464 00:32:21,911 --> 00:32:23,651 because if you start to see, 465 00:32:23,971 --> 00:32:25,831 well, I bought some eggs from him, 466 00:32:25,831 --> 00:32:27,851 and half of them were cracked and shit, 467 00:32:28,191 --> 00:32:30,271 and I bought eggs again, 468 00:32:30,751 --> 00:32:34,111 and if there's repeated problems and you don't address that, 469 00:32:34,111 --> 00:32:39,711 this is just going to be very hard for you to stand up to the coming competition, 470 00:32:40,031 --> 00:32:40,971 because this is what we need. 471 00:32:41,491 --> 00:32:44,151 We need more people competing. 472 00:32:44,711 --> 00:32:48,211 And when you look at, so people, this is another thing I want to say too, 473 00:32:48,311 --> 00:32:52,711 if you're an aspiring producer here in this Noster economy, 474 00:32:52,951 --> 00:32:58,291 your local meetup economy, and there's a guy that's already kind of sort of capturing the market, 475 00:32:58,471 --> 00:32:59,691 Soap Miner is a great example, right? 476 00:32:59,771 --> 00:33:03,891 This is just an indication to you that if they're being really successful, 477 00:33:04,111 --> 00:33:06,091 and selling this good or service, this product, 478 00:33:06,471 --> 00:33:10,011 that means that there's enough demand for you to try and start to compete with them. 479 00:33:10,651 --> 00:33:11,751 And there's room. 480 00:33:12,430 --> 00:33:13,391 We need more. 481 00:33:14,051 --> 00:33:18,911 Don't be afraid that you can't make soap just as good as Soap Miner 482 00:33:18,911 --> 00:33:20,731 and get some of the market share. 483 00:33:20,871 --> 00:33:22,851 You should start to put your soap out there. 484 00:33:23,671 --> 00:33:24,791 Maybe you got a different scent. 485 00:33:25,451 --> 00:33:28,011 Who knows what the difference is that you could make 486 00:33:28,011 --> 00:33:32,551 to make your product desirable to the Nostra community 487 00:33:32,551 --> 00:33:34,411 or to your local Bitcoin culture. 488 00:33:38,851 --> 00:33:40,711 What do you think it is, Rev, 489 00:33:40,951 --> 00:33:47,111 that reputation took a back seat in fiat culture? 490 00:33:49,011 --> 00:33:50,351 Well, the subsidy, right? 491 00:33:50,731 --> 00:33:52,551 I think you were saying something 492 00:33:52,551 --> 00:33:54,371 about the velocity trash economy, right? 493 00:33:54,471 --> 00:33:55,071 High velocity. 494 00:33:55,591 --> 00:33:58,091 The way you have to compete 495 00:33:58,091 --> 00:34:00,871 against the devaluation of the currency. 496 00:34:01,551 --> 00:34:03,631 And so that means you have to be doing high-volume stuff. 497 00:34:05,331 --> 00:34:08,831 And so now, when we're looking through the lens of Bitcoin, 498 00:34:09,510 --> 00:34:12,791 you can slow down and you can focus on quality 499 00:34:12,791 --> 00:34:15,731 because you just want to guarantee the sale. 500 00:34:15,731 --> 00:34:17,030 You want to just lock in. 501 00:34:17,631 --> 00:34:21,611 You have to convince somebody to actually spend the sats with you. 502 00:34:21,710 --> 00:34:24,291 It has to be good enough for them to give you that Bitcoin. 503 00:34:25,671 --> 00:34:30,151 And if you can just lock in those sales on a consistent basis, 504 00:34:30,151 --> 00:34:32,210 through a local economy, 505 00:34:32,771 --> 00:34:38,050 and you have some runway between when you earn those sats 506 00:34:38,050 --> 00:34:39,690 and when you ultimately have to spend them, 507 00:34:40,030 --> 00:34:41,510 usually by the time you spend them, 508 00:34:41,811 --> 00:34:43,751 they've not decreased in purchasing power, 509 00:34:43,831 --> 00:34:45,471 but they've increased in purchasing power. 510 00:34:46,050 --> 00:34:48,651 And when you start to look into a circular economy, 511 00:34:48,831 --> 00:34:51,451 like we've got, and when I say circular economy, right, 512 00:34:51,451 --> 00:34:53,571 we're not like living on Bitcoin, 513 00:34:53,831 --> 00:34:56,431 but we're starting to set, it's got to start somewhere, right? 514 00:34:56,710 --> 00:34:57,831 And so in Southwest Michigan, 515 00:34:57,831 --> 00:35:14,516 I will spend my Bitcoin on coffee every month and then I will have something for that person to purchase something for me and I earn my Bitcoin back And so this is another heuristic that I coming to as I participating in this meetup culture more 516 00:35:14,516 --> 00:35:18,336 is that I try and prioritize spending my Bitcoin 517 00:35:18,336 --> 00:35:22,616 with an individual or entity in which I have the highest opportunity 518 00:35:22,616 --> 00:35:23,996 to earn it back from them someday. 519 00:35:24,616 --> 00:35:27,536 So when Steak and Shake starts to accept Bitcoin, 520 00:35:28,156 --> 00:35:32,736 I'm not jumping in my car and driving two hours to the nearest Steak and Shake 521 00:35:32,736 --> 00:35:34,696 just so I can make a lightning transaction with them 522 00:35:34,696 --> 00:35:37,456 because I will never earn my Bitcoin back from Steak and Shake. 523 00:35:38,996 --> 00:35:41,676 The person that you should be jumping in the car and driving to 524 00:35:41,676 --> 00:35:46,456 is the guy in Cole in Michigan, Carl, 525 00:35:46,676 --> 00:35:49,276 who's got five pizza shops that accept Bitcoin 526 00:35:49,276 --> 00:35:51,796 because he's going to the meetups 527 00:35:51,796 --> 00:35:54,936 and he might buy some of your goods or services someday 528 00:35:54,936 --> 00:35:56,856 and you can earn the Bitcoin back from him. 529 00:35:56,856 --> 00:35:59,476 And this is how you can literally circulate the Bitcoin 530 00:35:59,476 --> 00:36:01,936 between each other in an economy. 531 00:36:02,736 --> 00:36:10,896 Yeah, I think about like the tribal economies, the Amish communities. 532 00:36:11,596 --> 00:36:17,356 I mean, if you research it, it goes into like Chinese immigrant networks, cooperative movements. 533 00:36:17,936 --> 00:36:24,056 Essentially, it's just a collective welfare where you're economically keeping things between each other. 534 00:36:24,836 --> 00:36:28,416 Reciprocity, mutualism to support collective welfare. 535 00:36:28,416 --> 00:36:32,936 So basically everything we're doing, like you said, the pizza shop owner, he's part of the group. 536 00:36:33,116 --> 00:36:36,196 So you know he's going to keep the velocity going. 537 00:36:36,396 --> 00:36:38,056 The buck doesn't stop there. 538 00:36:38,276 --> 00:36:46,216 So as long as everyone's pushing each other in that flywheel effect, that's how you really ignite a community. 539 00:36:46,756 --> 00:36:50,016 And then other people, other merchants say, hey, I want to get involved in this. 540 00:36:50,096 --> 00:36:51,336 You seem to be doing well. 541 00:36:51,336 --> 00:37:04,236 I think that's really a strong approach to building that local community, knowing that there's a network of customers who would just opt into you just based off your association with that mutual support. 542 00:37:04,896 --> 00:37:20,176 It's like a hyper-local, self-reinforcing flywheel that starts spinning, as opposed to the sort of negative sum globalization game that we've been stuck in. 543 00:37:21,336 --> 00:37:51,316 Yeah, for sure. 544 00:37:51,336 --> 00:37:54,736 Manage the subsidy and the cotillion effect, right? 545 00:37:55,256 --> 00:37:57,396 And make cheaper products, out-compete, 546 00:37:57,736 --> 00:38:00,836 and totally suck all the value and energy out of the flywheel. 547 00:38:00,956 --> 00:38:03,696 And there's no incentive, basically, to try and compete with that 548 00:38:03,696 --> 00:38:06,696 because if you do, you're getting extracted from either way. 549 00:38:07,236 --> 00:38:09,796 Now, when you flip that on its head and you have Bitcoin, 550 00:38:10,316 --> 00:38:12,916 this now becomes a huge advantage. 551 00:38:12,916 --> 00:38:15,696 You now become the most profitable business in town 552 00:38:15,696 --> 00:38:19,436 and the most profitable group of people working together 553 00:38:19,436 --> 00:38:22,516 because every time you create one loop of that circulation, 554 00:38:22,796 --> 00:38:25,756 everybody's left with more Bitcoin than they started with. 555 00:38:26,416 --> 00:38:29,956 Because as the price goes up, right, I buy that coffee, 556 00:38:30,116 --> 00:38:32,696 but it costs me less sats every time I buy the coffee. 557 00:38:33,816 --> 00:38:36,256 And so that means that I have more sats in my savings, 558 00:38:36,456 --> 00:38:39,836 which means that I have more sats to spend with a new entrant to the economy. 559 00:38:40,956 --> 00:38:43,196 You see, and it just continues, like you said, 560 00:38:43,196 --> 00:38:47,196 the flywheel actually gains energy rather than being drawn off of. 561 00:38:47,196 --> 00:38:54,796 Talk to me about the success of Lake Satoshi. I know it's been going on for how many years now? 562 00:38:54,796 --> 00:38:58,016 So this was the fourth annual Lake Satoshi. 563 00:39:00,556 --> 00:39:02,416 And every year. 564 00:39:02,416 --> 00:39:03,976 And talk about that. 565 00:39:04,556 --> 00:39:05,236 Yeah. 566 00:39:05,676 --> 00:39:07,476 Is it every year? 567 00:39:08,216 --> 00:39:21,876 Let's maybe talk about the first year versus now, kind of the successes and how much that circular economy, goods, trades, whatever, is actually starting to grow and it's building that Bitcoin velocity. 568 00:39:21,876 --> 00:39:33,016 So the first year, it was really just people that were local, hyper-local to that area. 569 00:39:33,736 --> 00:39:36,236 Very few people even in Michigan made it out. 570 00:39:36,596 --> 00:39:37,336 Very small event. 571 00:39:38,056 --> 00:39:39,636 Maybe 50 people maximum. 572 00:39:41,156 --> 00:39:44,776 The second year, it probably doubled in size. 573 00:39:45,276 --> 00:39:47,456 The third year, doubled in size again. 574 00:39:47,456 --> 00:39:53,016 I couldn't say how big it was this year because there was just people everywhere. 575 00:39:54,576 --> 00:39:58,716 There's plenty of space to expand out into this area. 576 00:39:58,956 --> 00:40:00,376 So let me just set the stage. 577 00:40:01,096 --> 00:40:07,736 So Lake Satoshi is a 120-acre property just outside of Lansing, Michigan. 578 00:40:07,736 --> 00:40:11,756 and the lake is basically 579 00:40:11,756 --> 00:40:15,616 it's been excavated to sell the aggregate 580 00:40:15,616 --> 00:40:18,716 from the, they drain the lake every year 581 00:40:18,716 --> 00:40:23,836 they dig out the aggregate and sell it and so the lake grows in size every year 582 00:40:23,836 --> 00:40:25,476 it gets deeper, it gets bigger 583 00:40:25,476 --> 00:40:31,796 and they've basically made a campground surrounding this lake 584 00:40:31,796 --> 00:40:34,076 which is kind of like a horseshoe shape 585 00:40:34,076 --> 00:40:35,936 It's shaped like a horseshoe. 586 00:40:37,136 --> 00:40:40,756 And so there's a peninsula out there that's really cool where you can camp and you're surrounded by the water. 587 00:40:43,256 --> 00:40:56,456 There's a workshop, like a big shop for, you know, working on their giant equipment in which they convert at this event into a place where there's panels, speakers. 588 00:40:56,976 --> 00:41:02,576 And then outside, there's also an area to support the trade in the circular economy. 589 00:41:04,076 --> 00:41:24,936 And the tickets are cheap, man. It's like 21 bucks. And it's very much the honor system. You don't have to really pay the ticket, but why wouldn't you? It's $21. You want to try and support these guys. And so they're effectively giving this event to the community. This is just a complete philanthropic effort that Lake Satoshi is providing for everybody. 590 00:41:24,936 --> 00:41:29,676 and so this year has been the biggest year ever 591 00:41:29,676 --> 00:41:31,196 and as far as the 592 00:41:31,196 --> 00:41:33,696 what I'm starting to realize is that 593 00:41:33,696 --> 00:41:36,376 we can kind of start to see 594 00:41:36,376 --> 00:41:37,736 some other examples 595 00:41:37,736 --> 00:41:39,776 similar types of events stirring up 596 00:41:39,776 --> 00:41:40,656 around Noster 597 00:41:40,656 --> 00:41:44,016 the culture shock in Phoenix 598 00:41:44,016 --> 00:41:45,936 Noster Bama which was recent 599 00:41:45,936 --> 00:41:47,356 recently happened 600 00:41:47,356 --> 00:41:49,996 Noster Valley out in Pennsylvania 601 00:41:49,996 --> 00:41:51,696 and then 602 00:41:51,696 --> 00:41:53,776 the Nosterville 603 00:41:53,776 --> 00:41:54,416 in 604 00:41:54,936 --> 00:42:03,736 Nashville, right? Lake Satoshi is in the league of these events. And what the opportunity here 605 00:42:03,736 --> 00:42:08,836 when it related to the circular economy, and this is going back to what I was mentioning earlier 606 00:42:08,836 --> 00:42:13,476 about being the guy with the covered wagon going from place to place selling your goods. 607 00:42:14,796 --> 00:42:20,956 If you create these hubs for people that are doing this to all meet and now trade with each other, 608 00:42:20,956 --> 00:42:31,896 Now they can diversify the goods on their wagon and go their separate ways and hit those different markets and bring goods to the markets that were not available before. 609 00:42:33,176 --> 00:42:39,196 And the more events like this that are happening, the more this becomes a potential lifestyle to live. 610 00:42:40,576 --> 00:42:47,716 And so at Lake Satoshi this year, I was selling my syrup and my cannabis seeds and whatever I had. 611 00:42:47,716 --> 00:42:51,216 And honestly, I had planned to, I grilled a lot of food. 612 00:42:51,636 --> 00:42:56,536 I grilled, I cooked about nine pounds of rabbit and 15 pounds of lamb. 613 00:42:57,416 --> 00:43:01,236 And I was intending to kind of distribute that value for value. 614 00:43:01,496 --> 00:43:04,996 But I quickly realized like that wasn't even appropriate. 615 00:43:05,136 --> 00:43:05,836 I'd just give it away. 616 00:43:05,916 --> 00:43:06,256 It's fine. 617 00:43:09,496 --> 00:43:17,476 But what I ended up leaving the event with was two dozen candles and a big sack of beef jerky from Barn Miner. 618 00:43:17,716 --> 00:43:22,216 and freeze-dry Skittles, and so on and so forth. 619 00:43:22,356 --> 00:43:24,176 And these are all goods that now I can take, 620 00:43:24,836 --> 00:43:26,716 and books from Fundamentals. 621 00:43:27,716 --> 00:43:29,196 Fundamentals wrote a book recently, 622 00:43:29,856 --> 00:43:30,816 Bitcoin for Institutions. 623 00:43:31,196 --> 00:43:33,296 And so I could take these products to the meetups, 624 00:43:33,336 --> 00:43:35,576 and now there's options for people 625 00:43:35,576 --> 00:43:38,036 because they weren't at Lake Satoshi, 626 00:43:38,236 --> 00:43:41,096 and they don't necessarily have access to those products 627 00:43:41,096 --> 00:43:43,216 because they're not local to the people producing them. 628 00:43:45,096 --> 00:43:46,616 And so these events, 629 00:43:46,616 --> 00:43:48,436 this creates this opportunity now 630 00:43:48,436 --> 00:43:50,776 which wasn't, this is the first 631 00:43:50,776 --> 00:43:52,676 realization of it at Lake 632 00:43:52,676 --> 00:43:54,556 Satoshi this year, of this 633 00:43:54,556 --> 00:43:56,556 Meshtadel, Meshconomy 634 00:43:56,556 --> 00:43:58,656 concept coming to fruition 635 00:43:58,656 --> 00:44:00,516 and it's very exciting 636 00:44:00,516 --> 00:44:04,456 Did anybody 637 00:44:04,456 --> 00:44:05,056 BitChat? 638 00:44:07,456 --> 00:44:08,596 I have no idea 639 00:44:08,596 --> 00:44:10,456 Maybe, maybe 640 00:44:10,456 --> 00:44:12,556 BitChat did not come up in 641 00:44:12,556 --> 00:44:14,416 conversations for one second 642 00:44:14,416 --> 00:44:15,896 Yeah 643 00:44:15,896 --> 00:44:25,436 Well, I'm just curious because it's like some of these little meetups, people are trying to break the record of the most in the network bit chats. 644 00:44:26,256 --> 00:44:35,756 It's just something that seems like it would be an interesting opportunity going through Bluetooth and then being able to kind of communicate across the lake on that. 645 00:44:36,676 --> 00:44:43,456 Because it has extended to data if you make your immediate connection via Bluetooth. 646 00:44:43,456 --> 00:44:45,196 But yeah, carry on. 647 00:44:45,196 --> 00:44:53,576 If you want to talk about mesh networks, and this is a really cool tangent to go on for a second here. 648 00:44:54,696 --> 00:44:57,316 So I'm kind of doing a route through Michigan, right? 649 00:44:57,356 --> 00:45:01,276 Like I said, I go to five or six Bitcoin meetups a month here in Michigan. 650 00:45:01,936 --> 00:45:05,916 And then there's Otis Bitmeyer, who's roasting coffee. 651 00:45:06,436 --> 00:45:12,736 And he's shipping this coffee, but he also wants to take the pop-up coffee shop on the road. 652 00:45:12,736 --> 00:45:20,876 and he has a reason to go to Oklahoma and back on a regular basis. 653 00:45:21,356 --> 00:45:25,016 And so his idea is that he's going to take this journey to Oklahoma and back 654 00:45:25,016 --> 00:45:28,376 and distribute these other products that aren't necessarily his 655 00:45:28,376 --> 00:45:31,396 along with his coffee through the meetups on that route. 656 00:45:32,316 --> 00:45:35,856 And there's another guy who's willing to do a similar route 657 00:45:35,856 --> 00:45:39,256 from Pennsylvania to Oklahoma and back. 658 00:45:39,256 --> 00:45:57,836 And what we've discussed is that we should start to distribute these MeshTastic radios along that route in hopes of creating a true mesh network to facilitate totally encrypted private communications across it. 659 00:45:58,036 --> 00:46:09,016 So that way, anyone who's in the know and who can tap into the mesh network now can talk from Oklahoma all the way to Grand Rapids, Michigan, and from Oklahoma all the way to Pennsylvania, and so on and so forth. 660 00:46:09,256 --> 00:46:15,176 and so the bit chat thing is is hyper like literally in in your backyard you can be 661 00:46:15,176 --> 00:46:20,036 chatting with somebody but the mesh tastic stuff has a range where you can realistically with some 662 00:46:20,036 --> 00:46:27,596 high antenna towers and stuff uh create a true mesh network isn't the idea behind bit chat that 663 00:46:27,596 --> 00:46:34,616 that it's it's not just limited to bluetooth but can scale to an actual mesh network because to your 664 00:46:34,616 --> 00:46:35,996 point, Rev, right? 665 00:46:35,996 --> 00:46:38,656 If you're in your backyard chatting with someone 666 00:46:38,656 --> 00:46:41,796 over Bluetooth, you might as well be actually talking 667 00:46:41,796 --> 00:46:43,296 to them like a human being. 668 00:46:45,276 --> 00:46:47,496 But I think BitChat is supposed to scale 669 00:46:47,496 --> 00:46:52,376 to other networks beyond Bluetooth. 670 00:46:52,421 --> 00:47:08,401 Understanding is the initial was Bluetooth, then the latest update, so long as you can make a connection via Bluetooth, like in person, then the chat extends beyond via data. 671 00:47:08,401 --> 00:47:18,301 But if you can omit just the cell towers and actually go through the mesh network, I think that's ideal for any cypherpunk mind. 672 00:47:18,701 --> 00:47:21,901 Right. It's all about bridging from one mesh network to the next. 673 00:47:22,421 --> 00:47:33,101 And so you can bridge from BitChat potentially into MeshTastic and then from MeshTastic into Nostra or directly from BitChat into Nostra. 674 00:47:33,101 --> 00:47:46,661 But the idea is that if you have these private channels that you can operate through and then exit onto the Internet at some point, now you only need a few people with Internet connectivity. 675 00:47:46,661 --> 00:47:50,301 and everyone can have these transactions 676 00:47:50,301 --> 00:47:52,021 and communications taking place 677 00:47:52,021 --> 00:47:54,041 that are completely off the grid, essentially. 678 00:47:55,681 --> 00:48:01,081 Yeah, a couple of star links connected to solar or whatever, right? 679 00:48:01,941 --> 00:48:04,621 Those are your internet hubs and the rest of them. 680 00:48:07,021 --> 00:48:11,101 It's a shadowy way of ordering freeze-dried Skittles 681 00:48:11,101 --> 00:48:12,861 that your wife doesn't know about, Avi. 682 00:48:12,861 --> 00:48:34,301 Well, basically the argument of what if the internet goes out? How are you going to spend your Bitcoin? And this is like a true answer to that question. Now, how it all ends up shaking out and what it looks like at the end, we don't know yet because nobody's done it. We're actively experimenting with this. 683 00:48:34,301 --> 00:48:47,661 But there is potential to accomplish this achieving transactions and communications over mesh networks and just finding these exits to the internet to connect to the broader network, right? 684 00:48:48,901 --> 00:48:50,141 And it's very... 685 00:48:50,141 --> 00:49:02,681 Yeah, and strengthening the infrastructure with Noster, whether it's Ham Radio, whether it's MeshTastic, or BitChat, these are all just simple communication. 686 00:49:02,681 --> 00:49:08,621 and then enabling the Bitcoin on a resistant infrastructure. 687 00:49:10,041 --> 00:49:14,121 But it's once again, like we're rebuilding a lot of things that have, 688 00:49:14,121 --> 00:49:16,321 they already exist and they have existed. 689 00:49:16,781 --> 00:49:21,161 And we're taking a lot of these concepts from old times or old techniques. 690 00:49:21,921 --> 00:49:26,121 And because we're looking at this, the rebuilding through the lens of Bitcoin, 691 00:49:27,201 --> 00:49:29,181 the Bitcoin culture and community is, 692 00:49:29,181 --> 00:49:32,721 especially the people that are willing to go to the meetups 693 00:49:32,721 --> 00:49:35,881 and really focus on this circular economy aspect of things. 694 00:49:36,321 --> 00:49:37,741 It's very small, very tight-knit, 695 00:49:38,161 --> 00:49:41,341 and this affords us the opportunity to experiment 696 00:49:41,341 --> 00:49:43,181 and build out the infrastructure. 697 00:49:43,841 --> 00:49:46,441 Once again, tying everything back to permaculture, 698 00:49:46,941 --> 00:49:50,821 we need to have the opportunity to work in small and slow solutions. 699 00:49:51,741 --> 00:49:53,581 And so this is our opportunity now 700 00:49:53,581 --> 00:49:56,601 to build these small proof-of-concept examples 701 00:49:56,601 --> 00:50:13,501 Um, so that way when, when people really need this, we've got the groundwork laid out and some of the issues we've got the experiential capital built up and the cultural capital built up to welcome the people when they start to come fast. 702 00:50:13,501 --> 00:50:21,941 yeah so going back to lake satoshi um what are some of the wins and losses uh how how involved 703 00:50:21,941 --> 00:50:29,621 are you in actually uh planning this or you just do you just attend and enjoy any shout outs to the 704 00:50:29,621 --> 00:50:36,641 the planners uh anything you want to kind of talk about um as far as how it went well it's definitely 705 00:50:36,641 --> 00:50:38,641 worth recognizing Mike and PF 706 00:50:38,641 --> 00:50:40,901 who they run the 707 00:50:40,901 --> 00:50:42,921 MidMichigan Meetup. Mike 708 00:50:42,921 --> 00:50:43,861 owns Lake Satoshi. 709 00:50:45,001 --> 00:50:45,241 He 710 00:50:45,241 --> 00:50:48,941 puts a lot of his time 711 00:50:48,941 --> 00:50:50,921 and effort and finances into 712 00:50:50,921 --> 00:50:52,781 upgrading that property 713 00:50:52,781 --> 00:50:54,741 every year to make the event better and better. 714 00:50:55,241 --> 00:50:56,581 PF does a lot of work 715 00:50:56,581 --> 00:50:58,581 in organizing and 716 00:50:58,581 --> 00:51:00,801 making sure that 717 00:51:00,801 --> 00:51:03,041 everyone's needs are met, answering questions 718 00:51:03,041 --> 00:51:03,581 and everything. 719 00:51:03,581 --> 00:51:08,761 and those guys it's really i mean there's more people than that but those two guys are like the 720 00:51:08,761 --> 00:51:16,301 the ones who are really dictating what's going on and they're doing an amazing job and um beyond that 721 00:51:16,301 --> 00:51:38,270 the the event is just um you talk like if you want to compare it to a bitcoin conference right basically you have to do a lot of work to get there in the first place It fairly remote It not really close to any major airport And it a camping event So now you 722 00:51:38,270 --> 00:51:43,130 got to figure out how you're going to get an RV there if your family needs to have a little bit 723 00:51:43,130 --> 00:51:45,910 more comfort and you don't want to do a tent. And if you're flying, you've got to figure out how to 724 00:51:45,910 --> 00:51:51,570 get all your gear there. And so there's this proof of work in getting to the event in the first place. 725 00:51:51,570 --> 00:51:53,630 and so when you're there 726 00:51:53,630 --> 00:51:55,830 you're totally immersed 727 00:51:55,830 --> 00:51:57,010 it's not like you can 728 00:51:57,010 --> 00:52:00,010 like when you get off the plane and you take your Uber 729 00:52:00,010 --> 00:52:02,030 to the conference area and then your hotel 730 00:52:02,030 --> 00:52:03,830 is like a few blocks away 731 00:52:03,830 --> 00:52:06,130 and you go hang out at the conference 732 00:52:06,130 --> 00:52:08,170 for a little while, see a talk here or there and you go back to your 733 00:52:08,170 --> 00:52:10,150 hotel and chill out and you can kind of like 734 00:52:10,150 --> 00:52:12,150 go explore the city, no, when you go to Lake 735 00:52:12,150 --> 00:52:14,050 Satoshi, you're at Lake Satoshi 736 00:52:14,050 --> 00:52:15,590 and that's what you're doing for the weekend 737 00:52:15,590 --> 00:52:18,050 and so you're completely immersed 738 00:52:18,050 --> 00:52:19,850 in the culture that's generated there 739 00:52:19,850 --> 00:52:23,970 and the ultimate result of this event. 740 00:52:24,550 --> 00:52:26,430 And I think this is a great example 741 00:52:26,430 --> 00:52:29,370 of ultimately what Bitcoin is 742 00:52:29,370 --> 00:52:31,690 and what the Bitcoin culture represents. 743 00:52:33,870 --> 00:52:37,010 Have you guys listened to the Telepathy Tapes podcast 744 00:52:37,010 --> 00:52:38,130 or heard about this at all? 745 00:52:39,410 --> 00:52:40,550 Tell us, Rev. 746 00:52:40,990 --> 00:52:43,130 So this podcast is, you know, 747 00:52:43,570 --> 00:52:45,510 it's not really a Bitcoin podcast. 748 00:52:45,770 --> 00:52:47,890 It might not count towards your 40 hours 749 00:52:47,890 --> 00:52:49,530 of Bitcoin podcast per week. 750 00:52:49,850 --> 00:52:52,430 but I recommend anybody to explore it. 751 00:52:53,410 --> 00:52:57,290 And so the podcast is basically exploring this concept 752 00:52:57,290 --> 00:53:00,390 that nonverbal autistic people have the ability 753 00:53:00,390 --> 00:53:04,230 to access subtle energies. 754 00:53:05,350 --> 00:53:08,730 And they have the ability to be telepathic 755 00:53:08,730 --> 00:53:13,490 and communicate in a way that we don't necessarily understand. 756 00:53:14,110 --> 00:53:16,590 They understand the world completely different to us. 757 00:53:16,590 --> 00:53:21,570 and the only way that their abilities are effective 758 00:53:21,570 --> 00:53:25,270 is if there's love involved 759 00:53:25,270 --> 00:53:26,310 there's love energy 760 00:53:26,310 --> 00:53:29,790 and the way that they define love and love energy 761 00:53:29,790 --> 00:53:31,650 is anything that unifies 762 00:53:31,650 --> 00:53:37,210 and so there's a little easter egg at the end of the podcast 763 00:53:37,210 --> 00:53:41,010 where they kind of go through this montage of these folks 764 00:53:41,010 --> 00:53:42,930 that have been part of it 765 00:53:42,930 --> 00:53:45,290 and this is after hours and hours 766 00:53:45,290 --> 00:53:51,070 10 hours of listening. And there's just one little blip in there that someone says, 767 00:53:51,190 --> 00:53:54,990 there's going to be a new currency and the currency is going to be based on love. 768 00:53:55,710 --> 00:54:02,610 And if you know nothing about Bitcoin, you could probably hardly imagine a currency based on love. 769 00:54:03,430 --> 00:54:07,950 But if you understand that their definition of love is anything that unifies, 770 00:54:08,790 --> 00:54:12,030 then you might start, and you know about Bitcoin, then you might start to make the connection 771 00:54:12,030 --> 00:54:15,110 that Bitcoin is an incredibly unifying force. 772 00:54:15,830 --> 00:54:19,550 And therefore, in their definition, pure love. 773 00:54:20,550 --> 00:54:22,790 And when you go to Lake Satoshi, 774 00:54:23,150 --> 00:54:25,450 you realize this, 775 00:54:26,110 --> 00:54:28,650 that Bitcoin is what's brought us here. 776 00:54:28,830 --> 00:54:30,610 Bitcoin is what has unified us. 777 00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:34,430 And the collective interaction of all the people 778 00:54:34,430 --> 00:54:35,510 is pure love. 779 00:54:38,430 --> 00:54:41,070 Rev, are you saying all the people 780 00:54:41,070 --> 00:54:43,710 who showed up at Lake Satoshi 781 00:54:43,710 --> 00:54:45,190 are non-verbal autists? 782 00:54:46,270 --> 00:54:47,930 Well, I don't know if I met any. 783 00:54:48,750 --> 00:54:49,590 They might have been there. 784 00:54:52,310 --> 00:54:52,990 No, no. 785 00:54:54,650 --> 00:54:58,030 But that is a beautiful way 786 00:54:58,030 --> 00:54:58,970 of looking at it, Rev. 787 00:54:59,070 --> 00:55:00,150 The currency of love. 788 00:55:00,350 --> 00:55:01,330 I couldn't agree more. 789 00:55:01,990 --> 00:55:02,950 Just imagine. 790 00:55:03,490 --> 00:55:04,090 At this point, 791 00:55:04,170 --> 00:55:06,010 do anything other than unify people. 792 00:55:08,870 --> 00:55:10,610 Yeah, and when you say pure love, 793 00:55:10,610 --> 00:55:15,970 I also think of pure life, pure vita, and how that's so synonymous with NOSTA and the community too. 794 00:55:17,790 --> 00:55:20,270 And so this event, you're basically immersed. 795 00:55:20,690 --> 00:55:30,010 It's like an overdose on social capital, on cultural capital, on spiritual capital, all these more intangible forms of capital. 796 00:55:30,370 --> 00:55:38,090 I used to go to the event in the past and look at it as a way to participate in the circular economy. 797 00:55:38,090 --> 00:55:42,390 And this is kind of the events come a little bit about this. 798 00:55:43,310 --> 00:55:50,790 But now this year it's culminated in something so much more where all of that stuff exists. 799 00:55:50,790 --> 00:55:59,490 But the ultimate result is like you get this huge, you're drinking from the fire hose of this connection with people. 800 00:56:02,430 --> 00:56:16,558 It overwhelming and I recommend everybody in Lake Satoshi I don think is like um unique in this I think that like I said I think you can find these events elsewhere And a lot of 801 00:56:16,558 --> 00:56:21,458 these Noster events are probably similar where you just find your people and you just, it's like, 802 00:56:21,458 --> 00:56:27,658 you've known each other for a hundred years, you know? Um, and when, when it's like 300 people 803 00:56:27,658 --> 00:56:29,158 that you've known for 100 years. 804 00:56:29,678 --> 00:56:30,598 This is an intense, 805 00:56:31,918 --> 00:56:34,978 there's emotional aspects to this 806 00:56:34,978 --> 00:56:37,138 that you don't find at a Bitcoin conference. 807 00:56:38,998 --> 00:56:41,158 We heard about similar things 808 00:56:41,158 --> 00:56:43,158 at bush bashes as well. 809 00:56:43,958 --> 00:56:45,658 I think they do some in Colorado, 810 00:56:46,578 --> 00:56:47,498 certainly in Australia. 811 00:56:48,638 --> 00:56:51,178 Heard very similar stories, Rev, about that. 812 00:56:51,178 --> 00:56:53,078 How many people were there? 813 00:56:53,578 --> 00:56:55,118 Because I've heard the same things. 814 00:56:55,118 --> 00:57:09,338 And so this isn't a unique phenomenon limited to Lake Satoshi, but it's an example of like when you immerse yourself in the Bitcoin community, you finally realize what Bitcoin is. 815 00:57:09,838 --> 00:57:10,258 Pure love. 816 00:57:12,158 --> 00:57:12,838 Love it. 817 00:57:13,378 --> 00:57:14,838 How many people were there, Rev? 818 00:57:14,958 --> 00:57:18,418 I don't know if you answered that already, but I didn't catch you. 819 00:57:18,418 --> 00:57:19,178 Hard to say for sure. 820 00:57:19,898 --> 00:57:22,278 I would say there was more than 300 people there. 821 00:57:23,318 --> 00:57:24,578 No doubt more than 300. 822 00:57:24,578 --> 00:57:30,238 But it was 500. I wouldn't say much more than 500 between 300 and 500 people. 823 00:57:30,358 --> 00:57:33,378 I'd say there's people everywhere, everywhere you go. 824 00:57:33,458 --> 00:57:35,678 There's a group of people over here, 50 people over there. 825 00:57:35,758 --> 00:57:40,018 There's 200 people at the shop. You know, there's this, this property is huge. 826 00:57:40,078 --> 00:57:43,738 It's, it's 120 acres and there's little bubbles of, you know, 827 00:57:44,118 --> 00:57:48,478 the Cleveland Bitcoin community has their little camp set up over here in the 828 00:57:48,478 --> 00:57:51,198 Michigan, the mid Michigan Bitcoin community has their, 829 00:57:51,198 --> 00:57:54,938 they're holding down the shop and the people from Pennsylvania over there. 830 00:57:54,938 --> 00:57:58,978 And, and, you know, like there's just all of these little bubbles that are formed. 831 00:57:58,978 --> 00:58:03,578 And then there's like these congregation points or by the lake, people at the beach, 832 00:58:03,698 --> 00:58:05,398 people at the playground with all the kids. 833 00:58:05,798 --> 00:58:08,018 This is the other thing is that it was a family event. 834 00:58:08,478 --> 00:58:13,918 There was, uh, at least 50 children there, if not more, everyone brought their dogs. 835 00:58:14,118 --> 00:58:19,638 You know, it was, uh, it's not everyone just hanging out, eating food, 836 00:58:19,638 --> 00:58:22,738 talking about whatever, not necessarily about Bitcoin, 837 00:58:23,338 --> 00:58:26,318 and sharing what they have with each other. 838 00:58:27,838 --> 00:58:32,038 Rev, that sounds amazing, but I have one nagging question. 839 00:58:32,178 --> 00:58:35,298 I suspect I asked you this when you were here last year 840 00:58:35,298 --> 00:58:36,518 to talk about Lake Satoshi. 841 00:58:36,938 --> 00:58:37,698 The plumbing oven. 842 00:58:38,518 --> 00:58:41,658 Where do all of these 500 people go to the bathroom? 843 00:58:42,538 --> 00:58:45,718 Well, so this is where the circular economy 844 00:58:45,718 --> 00:58:47,038 can really come in handy. 845 00:58:47,038 --> 00:58:56,498 rev rev powers is minor uh with methay well you know people show up they rent these rvs from from 846 00:58:56,498 --> 00:59:00,578 i don't know what website or whatever they get the rvs parked for them so they show up you know 847 00:59:00,578 --> 00:59:06,878 your rvs all set up ready to go people bring their own rvs in and um you know it's 500 sats 848 00:59:06,878 --> 00:59:15,658 take a shit in in that rv right and so you can uh do a little value for value you can either choose 849 00:59:15,658 --> 00:59:16,958 to poop in the port-a-john 850 00:59:16,958 --> 00:59:20,158 or you can go in someone's RV instead. 851 00:59:22,438 --> 00:59:23,678 And so that's how it kind of works. 852 00:59:27,018 --> 00:59:27,538 Interesting. 853 00:59:27,978 --> 00:59:28,838 Are you sold, Avi? 854 00:59:30,958 --> 00:59:32,318 I'm grappling with it. 855 00:59:32,478 --> 00:59:35,538 Everything Rev said sounds spectacular. 856 00:59:35,678 --> 00:59:38,078 The family element, the camaraderie, the nature. 857 00:59:38,918 --> 00:59:40,398 Except for this one thing, 858 00:59:40,498 --> 00:59:42,418 walking into a stranger's RV. 859 00:59:42,418 --> 00:59:44,638 Avi, I will pay you 10,000 sats to use the port-a-john. 860 00:59:45,658 --> 00:59:52,718 it could be like, uh, it, it, you know, it might be just a monumentous moment for you. 861 00:59:52,798 --> 00:59:57,898 They put in power pedestals. They put in like dozens of power pedestals this year. So all the 862 00:59:57,898 --> 01:00:02,758 RVs could plug in and have power and who knows, maybe next year they're going to have hot showers 863 01:00:02,758 --> 01:00:08,918 and, um, and flush toilets. I'm not sure every year they invest a lot into this property. 864 01:00:08,918 --> 01:00:10,158 it gets better and better 865 01:00:10,158 --> 01:00:12,158 and if you really like 866 01:00:12,158 --> 01:00:13,778 if the camping aspect 867 01:00:13,778 --> 01:00:17,378 is disinventageous 868 01:00:17,378 --> 01:00:18,658 to you, you don't like it, whatever 869 01:00:18,658 --> 01:00:21,278 you don't want to deal with it, you can find a hotel 870 01:00:21,278 --> 01:00:22,678 outside of town 871 01:00:22,678 --> 01:00:25,158 and drive in and go back to the hotel 872 01:00:25,158 --> 01:00:27,018 and just hold your shit 873 01:00:27,018 --> 01:00:28,338 until you gotta go to the hotel, right? 874 01:00:28,998 --> 01:00:30,938 There are a few flush toilets at the shop 875 01:00:30,938 --> 01:00:31,538 don't get me wrong 876 01:00:31,538 --> 01:00:34,298 I don't want to do the place disjustice 877 01:00:34,298 --> 01:00:37,098 there is some flush toilets there 878 01:00:37,098 --> 01:00:39,058 you're not going to find a hot shower 879 01:00:39,058 --> 01:00:49,487 unless it at an RV the facilities are well there a lake lake Lake can be a shower That not the end of the world 880 01:00:49,667 --> 01:00:50,707 Well, that was the joke. 881 01:00:51,007 --> 01:00:51,867 The indoor plumbing. 882 01:00:52,247 --> 01:00:53,707 Like, you're going to go to the lake. 883 01:00:53,867 --> 01:01:00,227 The only soap that you're allowed to use in the lake is what soap that the local guy was selling, right? 884 01:01:00,887 --> 01:01:04,907 My homie Matt, the man Arbor, he makes tallow soap too. 885 01:01:04,987 --> 01:01:08,207 And he's like, dude, if you want to, you know, you come, you got to buy my soap. 886 01:01:08,207 --> 01:01:10,347 I'm going to take a, you know, bathe in the lake. 887 01:01:10,407 --> 01:01:11,447 You've got to bathe with my soap. 888 01:01:12,987 --> 01:01:14,327 Just like a rite of passage. 889 01:01:14,907 --> 01:01:15,387 Everything. 890 01:01:16,047 --> 01:01:16,247 Anyway. 891 01:01:18,087 --> 01:01:19,907 Was there, was there good fishing in that lake? 892 01:01:20,827 --> 01:01:25,707 There is good fishing and people ate the fish, uh, from the lake this year. 893 01:01:27,087 --> 01:01:29,127 Does that, does that freezes over, right? 894 01:01:29,187 --> 01:01:29,547 That lake? 895 01:01:29,647 --> 01:01:29,987 It does. 896 01:01:30,347 --> 01:01:30,567 Yeah. 897 01:01:31,207 --> 01:01:31,367 What? 898 01:01:31,647 --> 01:01:31,967 Yeah. 899 01:01:32,327 --> 01:01:37,047 So a lot of native and, uh, is it fully stocked or is it a lot of natives there? 900 01:01:37,047 --> 01:01:39,807 I'm not sure how much they stock it 901 01:01:39,807 --> 01:01:41,667 but 902 01:01:41,667 --> 01:01:43,967 they must because there's good fish in there 903 01:01:43,967 --> 01:01:45,267 it is good fishing 904 01:01:45,267 --> 01:01:46,187 yeah 905 01:01:46,187 --> 01:01:49,027 yeah I 906 01:01:49,027 --> 01:01:50,767 would say that 907 01:01:50,767 --> 01:01:52,027 it's 908 01:01:52,027 --> 01:01:55,027 the lake 909 01:01:55,027 --> 01:01:57,567 to call it a lake it's a very large pond 910 01:01:57,567 --> 01:01:59,707 it's like on the border between being a lake 911 01:01:59,707 --> 01:02:00,367 and a pond 912 01:02:00,367 --> 01:02:05,487 so how big 913 01:02:05,487 --> 01:02:10,587 Can lakes, how big can this event get? I mean, what's the max occupancy in the forest? 914 01:02:10,947 --> 01:02:13,767 Well, the beautiful thing is that it's right next to a state park. 915 01:02:14,927 --> 01:02:23,287 So if they max out the lodging at the camping at the site, there can be overflow at the state park. 916 01:02:24,207 --> 01:02:35,447 And so I would say that there's not really a theoretical, like if it got bigger to the point where there would be so many people, 917 01:02:35,487 --> 01:02:38,827 there it would be a problem the event would be too big anyways and it wouldn't be any fun 918 01:02:38,827 --> 01:02:47,227 you know um so there's plenty of room to scale there i think the bathroom situation acts as a 919 01:02:47,227 --> 01:02:53,327 great filter rev even people who would be enthusiastic otherwise such as myself 920 01:02:53,327 --> 01:02:58,667 that's the the last mile problem is a is a bridge too far for me 921 01:02:58,667 --> 01:03:04,827 it's definitely like you know it separates the people who are uh 922 01:03:04,827 --> 01:03:08,927 used to pooping in a bucket excuse me one second 923 01:03:08,927 --> 01:03:15,307 he's viciously yelling at his dog right now 924 01:03:15,307 --> 01:03:24,167 always something going on i'm getting a delivery there's time for you i gotta i gotta amazon 925 01:03:24,167 --> 01:03:28,567 My dog doesn't like Amazon delivery drivers. 926 01:03:30,307 --> 01:03:31,107 I'm sorry. 927 01:03:33,527 --> 01:03:36,407 I feel like we're on a call when you get put on hold. 928 01:03:37,327 --> 01:03:38,947 Has he taken his dog for a walk? 929 01:03:46,887 --> 01:03:48,167 All right, folks. 930 01:03:48,307 --> 01:03:52,307 Looks like we've had a few technical snafus this episode, 931 01:03:52,307 --> 01:03:54,867 but I think we were able to extract 932 01:03:54,867 --> 01:03:58,187 a pretty decent amount of signal from Rev Hoddle. 933 01:03:58,267 --> 01:03:59,707 When Rev Hoddle speaks QW 934 01:03:59,707 --> 01:04:01,947 and when we can hear him speak, 935 01:04:03,027 --> 01:04:04,207 he stays spoken. 936 01:04:04,627 --> 01:04:07,547 There is some good stuff in there. 937 01:04:07,727 --> 01:04:10,567 So thank you all for listening. 938 01:04:10,787 --> 01:04:12,867 If you are listening to this, 939 01:04:13,027 --> 01:04:17,187 if you are listening to this as the podcast, 940 01:04:17,827 --> 01:04:19,627 then you will hear some odd glitches. 941 01:04:19,627 --> 01:04:25,147 That's because we had quite a few technical issues during the show. 942 01:04:25,607 --> 01:04:28,387 The homestead internet isn't quite there. 943 01:04:28,527 --> 01:04:31,267 The revolution, as we know, will have bad UX, 944 01:04:31,427 --> 01:04:32,687 but we appreciate your patience. 945 01:04:33,167 --> 01:04:36,447 And to our live audience who listened on Zap.Stream 946 01:04:36,447 --> 01:04:39,067 and any other Noster client that supports streaming, 947 01:04:39,227 --> 01:04:42,807 such as Amethyst on Noster, we thank you for your patience. 948 01:04:42,807 --> 01:04:44,887 we thank Rev Hoddle 949 01:04:44,887 --> 01:04:47,587 for joining us and sharing 950 01:04:47,587 --> 01:04:49,687 his wisdom with us 951 01:04:49,687 --> 01:04:51,707 anything from EQW before we close out 952 01:04:51,707 --> 01:04:53,207 you know Avi, can the 953 01:04:53,207 --> 01:04:55,107 stack be too sovereign 954 01:04:55,107 --> 01:04:57,807 you know, his stack 955 01:04:57,807 --> 01:04:59,227 might be too sovereign for 956 01:04:59,227 --> 01:05:00,367 communications 957 01:05:00,367 --> 01:05:03,607 but maybe Meschadel will fix 958 01:05:03,607 --> 01:05:04,867 that in the future, but no 959 01:05:04,867 --> 01:05:07,247 that's it, thank you for tuning in to 960 01:05:07,247 --> 01:05:09,487 PubChain Radio, if you appreciate us 961 01:05:09,487 --> 01:05:11,047 as much as we appreciate you 962 01:05:11,047 --> 01:05:14,727 listen on Fountain App and consider hitting the subscribe button. 963 01:05:15,207 --> 01:05:17,467 Until next week, gentle plebs, farewell. 964 01:05:18,727 --> 01:05:19,447 Goodbye.