1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,080 Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,940 on the intersection of NOSTER and Bitcoin protocols. 3 00:00:11,700 --> 00:00:16,680 Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,600 thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers, 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:22,780 doers, and plebs. 6 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:29,900 All right, we are live. 7 00:00:30,580 --> 00:00:34,580 Welcome, gentle plebs, to the lightning-laced airwaves. 8 00:00:35,180 --> 00:00:42,520 Today is Friday the 11th of July, and this is episode 120 of Pleb Chain Radio. 9 00:00:42,740 --> 00:00:48,920 It is 3.04 p.m. on the east coast of the United States at the time of recording. 10 00:00:49,340 --> 00:00:51,260 We have a fun show ahead of you. 11 00:00:51,820 --> 00:00:59,560 Nathan Day, creator of BTC Map, returns to Pleb Chain Radio to talk about what's new on the map 12 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:04,640 and how attestations on NOSTA change everything. 13 00:01:05,580 --> 00:01:07,000 And just a reminder, folks, 14 00:01:07,060 --> 00:01:09,700 if you are listening to this show on Apple or Spotify, 15 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:11,580 first of all, thank you for listening. 16 00:01:11,940 --> 00:01:13,780 But I would urge you to hit pause 17 00:01:13,780 --> 00:01:16,120 and switch over to the Fountain Podcasting app 18 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,380 and support the Value for Value revolution. 19 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:21,640 And while you're there, 20 00:01:22,020 --> 00:01:24,760 if you could subscribe to our show, 21 00:01:24,900 --> 00:01:27,240 we would genuinely appreciate your support 22 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,660 and it will give you access to exclusive bonus episodes. 23 00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:34,740 This show is streamed live on Zap.Stream 24 00:01:34,740 --> 00:01:38,580 and any other Noster client that supports streaming 25 00:01:38,580 --> 00:01:41,460 such as Amethyst and Noster. 26 00:01:42,260 --> 00:01:44,560 And QW, you have been paying attention 27 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:46,840 to Bitcoin and Noster culture in the last week. 28 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:48,100 What have you witnessed? 29 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,700 Well, let's talk about for a moment, Avi, 30 00:01:52,060 --> 00:01:56,160 the indie series that you're passionate about 31 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:01,000 and you're starting to progress on in the PCR premium content. 32 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:03,860 What led you to the idea? 33 00:02:04,220 --> 00:02:07,700 What's kind of the context of it and kind of your general vision? 34 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,680 Well, yeah, this is a topic I've been interested in, 35 00:02:14,740 --> 00:02:16,460 Bitcoin adoption in India, 36 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,460 given that it is the largest population. 37 00:02:20,220 --> 00:02:24,280 There is a natural affinity to gold, historical affinity to gold. 38 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:28,360 and somehow Bitcoin adoption has lagged. 39 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,820 So I didn't have the time before I quit my fiat job. 40 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:34,380 Now I do. 41 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:40,540 So I've decided to launch the series 42 00:02:40,540 --> 00:02:42,380 as part of our bonus content 43 00:02:42,380 --> 00:02:46,680 to talk to different builders, policy folks, 44 00:02:46,940 --> 00:02:49,580 lawyers, designers, developers 45 00:02:49,580 --> 00:02:52,780 who are building on Bitcoin and on Noster. 46 00:02:52,780 --> 00:02:57,280 So that really is the idea, just to see what's happening in India. 47 00:02:59,300 --> 00:03:00,280 That's interesting. 48 00:03:00,500 --> 00:03:03,740 The affinity to, they have affection for gold. 49 00:03:03,980 --> 00:03:09,880 That's something that, and I think of like a Ganesh gold sculpture or something like that. 50 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:11,000 Oh, yeah. 51 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,140 Is there going to be a digital Bitcoin Ganesh sculpture? 52 00:03:16,420 --> 00:03:17,840 That will be interesting. 53 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:19,420 We'll find out. 54 00:03:19,420 --> 00:03:24,100 I have not listened to the first episode, and I want to, of that series. 55 00:03:24,300 --> 00:03:25,960 So it's something in my queue. 56 00:03:26,660 --> 00:03:34,060 Another thing that happened this week, and I think it was our looking forward to next year show we did, 57 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:40,200 the acute case of Dunning-Kruger, two dudes with an acute case of Dunning-Kruger. 58 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:46,480 I've been waiting for this white noise, Jeff G's client, white noise for some time. 59 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:56,300 I've been looking for a suitable telegram, telegram replacement, signal, whatever it is, some sort of a group chat. 60 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:57,940 OX chat's okay. 61 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:01,880 I'd like to see maybe I need to use it more. 62 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:12,240 But it seems like this white noise, the bones are there as far as a replacement for both signal and telegram. 63 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,900 Avi, you and I have, I mean, the test flight just dropped. 64 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:22,300 It was finally approved this morning, so anybody on the iOS side of things, you are free to go. 65 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,940 APK, the Android, that's been going on for 24 hours now. 66 00:04:27,460 --> 00:04:29,440 So I would love to see how this is developing. 67 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:41,160 I know this is one of those projects that took a long time, and it seemed like it was very well-crafted and maybe tough to do. 68 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:46,680 So I'm happy that it's finally hitting the shelves, something where we can play with. 69 00:04:47,020 --> 00:04:53,780 But I love Jeff G as a developer, and I'm not sure who else was in the team there for building this. 70 00:04:54,140 --> 00:04:58,300 But I know he was the main person I knew. 71 00:04:58,640 --> 00:04:59,960 So do you know anybody, Avi? 72 00:05:00,660 --> 00:05:06,260 Max Hillebrand is essentially acting as the product lead for this. 73 00:05:06,380 --> 00:05:07,320 I think he took that role. 74 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,320 The man that single-handedly almost drove you off the road. 75 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:33,440 Almost killed me. And for folks who haven't caught the reference, I had a long drive and I was listening to Max's narration of a lodging of wayfaring men. And he has this beautiful, soothing voice, which almost put me to sleep when I was driving at 70 miles an hour on the interstate. 76 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:41,560 But Kirabi, just going back to white noise, I think, yeah, the initial use, you know, it's been great. 77 00:05:41,820 --> 00:05:56,540 But what will make or break it in my view, and this remains to be seen, is how seamlessly it gets integrated into the Darmus's, the primals, and the Nostas, and the others. 78 00:05:57,220 --> 00:06:01,460 Because it's truly the solution to private DMs? 79 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:02,920 That's right. 80 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,960 And with a separate app for private DMs, that might work. 81 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,820 I have a feeling it adds to the fragmentation. 82 00:06:10,980 --> 00:06:12,380 We already have Telegram, Signal, 83 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,380 and then we have our social apps, Primal, Darmus, Nostur. 84 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:17,360 And just one more app. 85 00:06:18,540 --> 00:06:19,560 I don't know. 86 00:06:19,660 --> 00:06:20,320 We'll have to see it. 87 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,840 But it just feels like an extra step, extra point of friction. 88 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:26,060 now if the nipple for 89 00:06:26,060 --> 00:06:28,360 or the kind for 90 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,260 DMs that exist 91 00:06:30,260 --> 00:06:32,180 today in most of those clients get stripped out 92 00:06:32,180 --> 00:06:33,860 and replaced with 93 00:06:33,860 --> 00:06:35,520 the white noise DMs 94 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,160 and I don't know what the technical feasibility 95 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,020 of that is but if that does happen 96 00:06:40,020 --> 00:06:41,360 and then DMs become 97 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,320 first class citizens again 98 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,740 in these apps, in these Twitter 99 00:06:45,740 --> 00:06:47,940 clone apps, I think it'll see a lot 100 00:06:47,940 --> 00:06:49,080 more success and traction 101 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,700 yeah, one can hope 102 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:52,480 we'll see, huh? 103 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:58,280 so yeah it's been like 24 hours so we i'm sure there'll be people saying what the hell is this 104 00:06:58,280 --> 00:07:05,220 uh you're literally in the not even 1.0 version of it essentially uh it's full-on uh beta testing 105 00:07:05,220 --> 00:07:13,180 so uh i'm it's just something exciting um obviously nostrobama is coming up uh and and was it was i 106 00:07:13,180 --> 00:07:20,280 corrected um did sergio say the 15th through the 17th uh i think he did yeah so i've been saying 107 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:26,820 the 14th it's the 15th through the 17th so we're looking at four days away you can be skydiving 108 00:07:26,820 --> 00:07:34,580 with the bitcoin mixologist Lake Satoshi I'd like to do a show around this but I think we're going 109 00:07:34,580 --> 00:07:40,500 to end up maybe doing a recap on it with our schedule but Lake Satoshi August 1st through the 110 00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:47,240 3rd that's going to be an exciting time bring your camping gear Avi I know you have it handy these 111 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:56,920 days yeah and my indoor plumbing kit oh man how is the indoor plumbing in india i'm just curious 112 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:03,080 oh it's excellent yeah but it depends on where you are but i mean i've never had issues 113 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:09,580 yeah good it's it's one of those it's just such a big country uh then and you don't you know us 114 00:08:09,580 --> 00:08:15,480 so far away from the across the pond just think oh india and we can just it's like saying america 115 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,420 But, you know, there's rednecks. 116 00:08:18,660 --> 00:08:23,760 There's, you know, there's all kinds of different beings there. 117 00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:27,700 So, yeah, that's pretty much it for Culture Corner. 118 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,280 Obviously, the vibe game is going strong. 119 00:08:31,100 --> 00:08:33,340 Soapbox, I have not looked into it too much. 120 00:08:33,660 --> 00:08:37,400 The Shakespeare drop, it just dropped, I think, last night. 121 00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:41,440 So I think they did a – did they do that at Pub Key, Avi? 122 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:43,760 Yes, that was the – 123 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,740 Oh, well, did you want to talk about it? 124 00:08:46,740 --> 00:08:48,060 It was a good event. 125 00:08:48,140 --> 00:08:50,900 There was a fireside chat between Alex Gleason 126 00:08:50,900 --> 00:08:55,300 and Alex Lee, I believe, from HRF, 127 00:08:55,860 --> 00:08:57,820 where they went over the Shakespeare drop. 128 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,060 My understanding, I haven't used it yet, 129 00:09:00,060 --> 00:09:04,880 is you can whisper, you literally whisper into the AI 130 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,140 and get it to build out your app. 131 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:08,940 So interesting stuff. 132 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:10,160 It was a good conversation. 133 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:18,200 And a couple of surreal things happened while I was there, completely unrelated to Shakespeare, 134 00:09:18,980 --> 00:09:25,000 which is Adam Back randomly walked in, in the middle of the fireside chat, and he sat down. 135 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,600 And, of course, Adam Back does not live in New York. 136 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:29,620 So that was surprising. 137 00:09:30,260 --> 00:09:35,720 And then shortly after that, I bumped into Alana Media Villa. 138 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:40,040 So Alana is the director of Dirty Coin. 139 00:09:40,460 --> 00:09:45,400 So I bumped into her husband, who I'd met in Warsaw at the Film Fest last year. 140 00:09:46,260 --> 00:09:52,520 And he was independently in New York and happened to be there at the same time. 141 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:54,800 So interesting things happen at PubKey. 142 00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:00,040 Yeah, it's certainly a networking mecca, huh? 143 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:02,340 Yeah, it can be. 144 00:10:02,340 --> 00:10:08,800 But there are days when if you go at the wrong time of day or wrong day of the week, there's not much going on. 145 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:13,460 But other days, you meet interesting characters. 146 00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:20,880 If you drink there enough, Avi, there's rumors that you can become a board member of a Bitcoin treasury company. 147 00:10:22,900 --> 00:10:28,540 Or if you don't, you can save those sats and start your own Bitcoin treasury company. 148 00:10:30,060 --> 00:10:31,180 This is the way. 149 00:10:32,340 --> 00:10:34,040 Oh man, that's it for Culture Corner. 150 00:10:34,780 --> 00:10:36,660 Let's talk about the sermon, Avi. 151 00:10:37,820 --> 00:10:38,780 Yes, indeed. 152 00:10:38,900 --> 00:10:42,420 Our sermon today is Fill the Map. 153 00:10:42,940 --> 00:10:48,060 We've sung hymns to self-custody and whispered psalms about price. 154 00:10:48,060 --> 00:10:52,400 But tonight we crack open the gospel of merchant adoption. 155 00:10:53,140 --> 00:10:55,860 Because here's the cosmic cheat code. 156 00:10:56,680 --> 00:10:59,480 Money isn't money until it moves. 157 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,220 Satoshis stuffed in cold storage are inert clay. 158 00:11:05,260 --> 00:11:09,640 Spend them at your corner taqueria and they become a living organism. 159 00:11:10,580 --> 00:11:18,420 Every checkout counter that flashes a lightning invoice is a neon sign declaring monetary independence. 160 00:11:19,060 --> 00:11:25,040 When the deli guy, the barber and even the bodega cat accept Bitcoin, 161 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:34,800 normies stop asking why and start asking how. UX flows follow espresso shots and 162 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:52,472 wallets get downloaded faster than you can say Fiat is dead So let quit waiting for Wall Street suits or nation treaties The revolution starts with a scan of a QR code at the halal food truck on 6th Avenue 163 00:11:53,432 --> 00:12:00,312 Convince one shopkeeper, on board their point of sale, and you plant a flag in occupied territory. 164 00:12:01,132 --> 00:12:05,672 One orange flame against the grey drizzle of legacy rails. 165 00:12:05,672 --> 00:12:09,752 It's viral, contagious, irresistible 166 00:12:09,752 --> 00:12:13,732 So New York plebs, you're on the front lines 167 00:12:13,732 --> 00:12:18,012 Tourists, tastemakers, ticker tape of the world 168 00:12:18,012 --> 00:12:22,892 But wherever you are, Krakow, Kampala, Kalamazoo 169 00:12:22,892 --> 00:12:24,612 The mission is the same 170 00:12:24,612 --> 00:12:27,112 Orange pill your favorite haunts 171 00:12:27,112 --> 00:12:32,332 Until BTC map looks like a Jackson Pollock of orange pins 172 00:12:32,332 --> 00:12:38,552 Grab a sticker pack, load up your zapping wallet, and go preach with payments. 173 00:12:39,092 --> 00:12:40,932 Together, we fill the map. 174 00:12:41,452 --> 00:12:43,952 Hashtag fill the map. 175 00:12:46,012 --> 00:12:48,212 Are you starting a movement, Avi? 176 00:12:48,992 --> 00:12:50,672 Is it hashtag fill the map? 177 00:12:51,412 --> 00:12:52,732 Hashtag fill the map. 178 00:12:52,832 --> 00:12:54,132 It is the call to action. 179 00:12:54,612 --> 00:12:58,732 It's a rallying cry to plebs to fill the map. 180 00:12:59,232 --> 00:13:01,472 And I think this is an excellent time. 181 00:13:02,332 --> 00:13:06,992 to bring on the man who gave us a map to fill, Nathan Day. 182 00:13:07,112 --> 00:13:07,612 The map killer himself. 183 00:13:08,032 --> 00:13:11,392 The map, yes, the mapper himself, Nathan Day. 184 00:13:11,632 --> 00:13:13,292 Welcome back to Plep Chain Radio. 185 00:13:14,752 --> 00:13:16,472 Great to be back, and amen. 186 00:13:17,092 --> 00:13:18,432 I co-signed that message, Evie. 187 00:13:20,132 --> 00:13:21,172 Fill the map. 188 00:13:21,892 --> 00:13:25,992 It's going to trend like Olos 365. 189 00:13:27,572 --> 00:13:30,632 It turned into Olos 90, and then it faded. 190 00:13:31,412 --> 00:13:32,212 We'll see. 191 00:13:32,332 --> 00:13:38,772 I believe in Avi's movement and it's got, it's a worthy cause. 192 00:13:38,912 --> 00:13:39,612 It really is. 193 00:13:39,712 --> 00:13:44,512 And I need to be filling the map in Phoenix here because it's, I checked again and I haven't 194 00:13:44,512 --> 00:13:47,752 seen a single other, I got work to do. 195 00:13:48,052 --> 00:13:55,852 Avi, I know you're starting to push the envelope on doing some of that work, but I got, I got, 196 00:13:55,932 --> 00:13:58,512 I don't even know where to start in my desert. 197 00:13:58,932 --> 00:14:00,532 You got to start somewhere, man. 198 00:14:00,532 --> 00:14:07,672 And rumor has it, by the way, folks, that August might see three, potentially four new 199 00:14:07,672 --> 00:14:10,152 editions in New York City. 200 00:14:10,532 --> 00:14:11,392 But stay tuned. 201 00:14:12,292 --> 00:14:12,812 Exciting. 202 00:14:16,412 --> 00:14:20,412 So, Nathan, we start with a burning question, as always. 203 00:14:21,412 --> 00:14:26,852 What is the number one thing stopping BTC Map from becoming useless? 204 00:14:29,412 --> 00:14:30,052 Interesting. 205 00:14:30,532 --> 00:14:37,552 People spending Bitcoin is the obvious answer, but I think it comes down to merchants ultimately. 206 00:14:37,972 --> 00:14:46,112 So as much as we want to spend Bitcoin, then there has to be merchants willing to accept it. 207 00:14:46,112 --> 00:14:52,172 So I've come down to the conclusion really that we need merchant-led adoption. 208 00:14:52,172 --> 00:14:55,572 and that has to come through them 209 00:14:55,572 --> 00:14:58,692 demanding the best money in the world 210 00:14:58,692 --> 00:15:02,272 rather than the fiat money 211 00:15:02,272 --> 00:15:03,392 and that's going to take some time. 212 00:15:04,452 --> 00:15:06,412 And I think it's okay if it takes time 213 00:15:06,412 --> 00:15:10,052 because that means that any merchant adoption 214 00:15:10,052 --> 00:15:12,992 is healthy and sticks 215 00:15:12,992 --> 00:15:16,332 rather than just being a local phenomenon 216 00:15:16,332 --> 00:15:19,352 that bubbles up and then pops. 217 00:15:19,352 --> 00:15:24,712 it would just be a slow and steady crunch up, I believe. 218 00:15:26,632 --> 00:15:29,592 So let's actually press on that a little bit, Nathan, 219 00:15:29,672 --> 00:15:34,492 because I've, from my distance, come to that conclusion as well, 220 00:15:34,732 --> 00:15:37,052 that merchant adoption drives user adoption. 221 00:15:37,692 --> 00:15:40,172 But if we were to take a step back, 222 00:15:40,612 --> 00:15:42,892 it does appear to be a chicken and egg problem. 223 00:15:42,892 --> 00:15:45,092 Because if you talk to a merchant and say, 224 00:15:45,292 --> 00:15:47,112 why aren't you accepting Bitcoin? 225 00:15:47,112 --> 00:15:51,132 the likely answer is going to be, well, no one's paying in Bitcoin. 226 00:15:51,872 --> 00:15:55,772 And then you ask the users, why aren't you using Bitcoin as money? 227 00:15:55,872 --> 00:15:57,072 Well, no one accepts Bitcoin. 228 00:15:57,692 --> 00:16:04,052 So it seems like you've come to the conclusion that, well, no, it appears to be a chicken and egg, 229 00:16:04,152 --> 00:16:07,492 but really you hit the merchants first, and that's how you solve it. 230 00:16:08,592 --> 00:16:14,332 I think that's how you get more entrenched growth that stays. 231 00:16:14,332 --> 00:16:21,452 I mean, there's also an education piece and raising the visibility of it as well. 232 00:16:21,572 --> 00:16:27,612 So if you're asking as a consumer, if that's Bitcoin or cash, 233 00:16:27,772 --> 00:16:31,612 then that's also going to get people thinking about Bitcoin. 234 00:16:32,112 --> 00:16:37,192 But ultimately, the merchant has to say, no, I want Bitcoin because it's better money. 235 00:16:37,192 --> 00:16:48,032 I think that's how we get global scale that stays with us rather than these, you know, more sort of engineered initiatives. 236 00:16:51,692 --> 00:16:57,452 And how do you do that? How do you, in your mind, how do you orange pill merchants? 237 00:16:57,452 --> 00:17:01,592 because in New York, with the few examples that I talked about 238 00:17:01,592 --> 00:17:03,772 and the three potential upcoming ones, 239 00:17:04,092 --> 00:17:08,312 they happen to be Bitcoiners who've been in the background 240 00:17:08,312 --> 00:17:12,232 and it took, honestly, I can't take any credit for this. 241 00:17:12,392 --> 00:17:16,612 It's maybe Daniel or the Daniel who's done a lot of this work. 242 00:17:17,472 --> 00:17:21,592 In coming up with a good approximation of a point of sale, 243 00:17:21,692 --> 00:17:24,272 given New York's constraints, let's not forget, right? 244 00:17:24,272 --> 00:17:34,332 New York, North Korea, and Iran have a lot of trouble accessing some of these cool Bitcoin and Lightning apps. 245 00:17:34,832 --> 00:17:42,212 But given that he's come up with a fairly elegant solution, I would say, to work around this, 246 00:17:42,332 --> 00:17:46,812 and it was just a simple matter of talking to these Bitcoiner owners and saying, 247 00:17:46,892 --> 00:17:48,532 hey, why aren't you doing this? You're a Bitcoiner. 248 00:17:48,652 --> 00:17:51,132 And they were like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, fine, I'll do it. 249 00:17:51,132 --> 00:17:56,352 but in the event that the merchant is not a Bitcoiner 250 00:17:56,352 --> 00:18:00,292 how do you, I guess, twist their arm? 251 00:18:00,432 --> 00:18:01,712 Maybe that's not the right phrase. 252 00:18:01,852 --> 00:18:02,872 How do you convince them? 253 00:18:02,932 --> 00:18:03,972 You make them aware. 254 00:18:04,212 --> 00:18:08,412 I mean, people say to me that when they're 255 00:18:08,412 --> 00:18:10,352 not necessarily orange pulling the merchant 256 00:18:10,352 --> 00:18:13,072 because the first step is basically 257 00:18:13,072 --> 00:18:14,852 would you like additional custom? 258 00:18:15,692 --> 00:18:18,552 And as long as they're not allergic to Bitcoin 259 00:18:18,552 --> 00:18:25,712 then they can accept Bitcoin and perhaps they auto-convert out into fiat to begin with. 260 00:18:26,792 --> 00:18:30,332 But what we often see is that when people start there 261 00:18:30,332 --> 00:18:37,092 then after a while they then start to keep the Bitcoin and not do the auto-convert. 262 00:18:38,332 --> 00:18:41,872 So I think it's a very powerful tool to say 263 00:18:41,872 --> 00:18:46,192 there's a segment of a customer base out there 264 00:18:46,192 --> 00:18:49,572 that will go over and above, out of their way 265 00:18:49,572 --> 00:18:53,732 to come spend sats at merchants that accept Bitcoin. 266 00:18:55,052 --> 00:18:58,172 And it's not going to be a huge amount to begin with, 267 00:18:58,232 --> 00:19:02,672 but they'll see the Bitcoiners that have just travelled an hour 268 00:19:02,672 --> 00:19:06,492 to get their hair cut in a barber because they accept Bitcoin. 269 00:19:07,772 --> 00:19:10,272 And I just think we do it slowly. 270 00:19:11,552 --> 00:19:15,972 The numbers of merchants are increasing day on day. 271 00:19:16,192 --> 00:19:23,192 We're not seeing hockey stick growth, but we're seeing very nice linear growth right now. 272 00:19:24,572 --> 00:19:35,792 And that's on the, let's call it native acceptance, where they're not using one of these services like Tando, 273 00:19:35,792 --> 00:19:45,732 or I think there's VietQR in Vietnam, and there's the Quirco app in the Czech Republic that enable you to spend Bitcoin. 274 00:19:46,192 --> 00:19:50,212 And sometimes the merchant doesn't even know that that's happened. 275 00:19:51,912 --> 00:19:59,752 And so I think we're going to see lots of these regional or per country on ramps for merchants popping up. 276 00:20:01,232 --> 00:20:03,792 And, you know, that's a good place to start for them. 277 00:20:04,512 --> 00:20:12,772 And then once they realize that they actually want Bitcoin directly, then that's a decision they can make at that point. 278 00:20:12,772 --> 00:20:16,632 so I think we're going to see more of those 279 00:20:16,632 --> 00:20:19,032 and Square is a big example of that 280 00:20:19,032 --> 00:20:22,692 they announced back at the Vegas conference 281 00:20:22,692 --> 00:20:26,172 that they're going to be enabling all of their merchants 282 00:20:26,172 --> 00:20:29,852 by default for Lightning payments 283 00:20:29,852 --> 00:20:33,272 so I think that's roughly 4 million in the US 284 00:20:33,272 --> 00:20:37,332 and perhaps, I don't know, maybe 10 million globally 285 00:20:37,332 --> 00:20:40,912 4 million in the US 286 00:20:40,912 --> 00:20:42,272 excluding New York 287 00:20:42,272 --> 00:20:43,612 I'm sorry to say 288 00:20:43,612 --> 00:20:43,912 probably 289 00:20:43,912 --> 00:20:45,832 yeah 290 00:20:45,832 --> 00:20:49,272 but that's at least 291 00:20:49,272 --> 00:20:51,432 an order if not two orders of magnitude 292 00:20:51,432 --> 00:20:52,712 more than the current 293 00:20:52,712 --> 00:20:54,972 merchants we've got 294 00:20:54,972 --> 00:20:56,932 so we've got as of today 295 00:20:56,932 --> 00:21:01,492 just looking 16,801 296 00:21:01,492 --> 00:21:02,832 merchants on the map 297 00:21:02,832 --> 00:21:05,092 as the time of recording 298 00:21:05,092 --> 00:21:08,732 so it's going to get really interesting 299 00:21:08,732 --> 00:21:10,232 when that's in the millions 300 00:21:10,232 --> 00:21:12,532 and that's going to happen fairly soon. 301 00:21:12,632 --> 00:21:14,612 I mean, we're in discussions with the Square team. 302 00:21:14,912 --> 00:21:17,312 I've got a call with them next week lined up 303 00:21:17,312 --> 00:21:20,452 to discuss how we're going to approach this logistically. 304 00:21:22,332 --> 00:21:25,872 Yeah, that'd be, that's, I mean, if you can find, 305 00:21:26,092 --> 00:21:28,232 I mean, anytime you see the Square at that point, 306 00:21:28,372 --> 00:21:30,152 moving forward, you'd be like, 307 00:21:30,212 --> 00:21:32,072 hey, you know, you should be accepting Bitcoin 308 00:21:32,072 --> 00:21:33,772 because it's such a simple transition. 309 00:21:34,632 --> 00:21:38,052 I can definitely see a fill the map bull run coming up. 310 00:21:38,392 --> 00:21:39,392 Yeah, we're going to be busy. 311 00:21:40,232 --> 00:21:45,412 It's just another form of advertising for, let's say, my wife who uses Square for her hair. 312 00:21:47,772 --> 00:21:55,872 She's a hairstylist, has a salon, but it would just be something on the map, another form of advertising that she can easily do. 313 00:21:55,992 --> 00:21:59,112 Well, yeah, very shortly, she will be able to accept Bitcoin. 314 00:21:59,812 --> 00:22:02,052 And she doesn't even have to opt into that. 315 00:22:02,132 --> 00:22:04,692 That's going to be on by default, according to the team there. 316 00:22:05,672 --> 00:22:07,952 Yeah, yeah, that's powerful. 317 00:22:07,952 --> 00:22:11,652 I think everybody in their right mind has been waiting for this, right? 318 00:22:11,872 --> 00:22:21,572 Because you have Jack who's heading this block and Square and all these Bitcoin ventures, Noster. 319 00:22:22,972 --> 00:22:28,712 It seemed like the only thing holding them back was the board and the stock or something. 320 00:22:28,852 --> 00:22:31,692 I don't know, the fiatness of the company. 321 00:22:31,692 --> 00:22:37,052 But the fact that they're going to start accepting Bitcoin or allowing or it's integrated into Square. 322 00:22:37,052 --> 00:22:41,352 I'd love to see how this works out 323 00:22:41,352 --> 00:22:44,112 because it's going to be exciting times ahead 324 00:22:44,112 --> 00:22:48,292 not to mention QW in the specific case of Square 325 00:22:48,292 --> 00:22:52,792 they presumably have volume based deals 326 00:22:52,792 --> 00:22:55,492 with Visa and MasterCard, the networks 327 00:22:55,492 --> 00:22:59,372 and if Lightning takes off 328 00:22:59,372 --> 00:23:01,912 those networks in theory get obliterated 329 00:23:01,912 --> 00:23:06,352 because they're 3.5% maybe in some cases 4% fees 330 00:23:06,352 --> 00:23:08,352 American Express is closer to 4%. 331 00:23:08,352 --> 00:23:11,352 So Lightning would destroy it. 332 00:23:11,352 --> 00:23:15,352 So, you know, Square, I suspect, up until this point, 333 00:23:15,352 --> 00:23:20,352 had to tiptoe around that issue, and they figured out a way, I think, 334 00:23:20,352 --> 00:23:32,744 of balancing those relationships and then bringing this in Yeah my personal view is I think they been sitting on this for a while because obviously they could have done it years ago 335 00:23:34,244 --> 00:23:38,104 But something's changed that says now is the time. 336 00:23:40,184 --> 00:23:45,264 Well, and I can tell you as a family business of 60-plus years, 337 00:23:45,444 --> 00:23:49,844 the fiat is just getting worse and worse. 338 00:23:49,844 --> 00:23:52,384 I mean, just to deposit a check, a cash. 339 00:23:52,484 --> 00:23:56,444 If we have cash, let's say a customer pays us $10,000 cash. 340 00:23:56,664 --> 00:23:59,604 We actually pay a fee to deposit that cash. 341 00:24:00,564 --> 00:24:03,224 So cash is like disappearing to you. 342 00:24:03,424 --> 00:24:04,884 It's disincentivized. 343 00:24:05,504 --> 00:24:07,824 That is an expensive haircut, I have to say. 344 00:24:09,504 --> 00:24:10,744 Yeah, well, you know. 345 00:24:11,064 --> 00:24:13,144 It's a lot of hair over here. 346 00:24:13,204 --> 00:24:13,744 You know, Avi. 347 00:24:15,244 --> 00:24:19,384 But yeah, it seems like everything is kind of like, 348 00:24:19,384 --> 00:24:25,384 oh, just pay this credit card, use this credit card, fees, fees, fees, and it just normalized. 349 00:24:25,804 --> 00:24:30,284 And it shouldn't be like that. At the same time, customers are like, why is this so expensive? 350 00:24:30,464 --> 00:24:37,644 It's like, well, everything adds up, everything. I'm curious how Square deals with transaction fees 351 00:24:37,644 --> 00:24:44,324 with this convert setting. I wonder if it's going to be the same, if that was kind of that compromise 352 00:24:44,324 --> 00:24:48,284 that they had. Okay, we'll accept it, but we're still going to make the same amount of money. 353 00:24:48,284 --> 00:24:52,584 because obviously using permissionless Bitcoin, 354 00:24:53,504 --> 00:24:56,364 there should be frictionless, should have very low fees. 355 00:24:56,664 --> 00:24:59,984 We'll see if it's a moneymaker or a freedom maker. 356 00:25:01,124 --> 00:25:02,124 Yeah, it's going to be interesting. 357 00:25:02,964 --> 00:25:06,324 And then, you know, this is off the back of Steak and Shake 358 00:25:06,324 --> 00:25:10,844 that deployed nationwide to hundreds of locations. 359 00:25:11,284 --> 00:25:12,924 So we added all those to the map. 360 00:25:12,924 --> 00:25:23,604 we've got the spa grocery chain in switzerland just added 14 new places today so i think they're 361 00:25:23,604 --> 00:25:31,424 up to something like 13 total with 50 plus planned over the next month or two um so yeah it's hard to 362 00:25:31,424 --> 00:25:37,684 keep up really at the moment um it's just like a ratchet we're just getting more and more and 363 00:25:37,684 --> 00:25:45,564 more people and uh it's we tend to not drift backwards i i love the fact that btc maps is 364 00:25:45,564 --> 00:25:53,424 is is really a global indicator on on growth uh it's such a it's it's pure signal honestly uh when 365 00:25:53,424 --> 00:25:57,684 when you look at the growth and you look at different regions uh you can kind of see why 366 00:25:57,684 --> 00:26:03,644 why it's going down why it's going up um it's just such a great indicator is that something that you 367 00:26:03,644 --> 00:26:05,544 thought of when you were building it originally? 368 00:26:06,104 --> 00:26:07,064 No, not at all. 369 00:26:07,144 --> 00:26:13,144 But since getting into it, I always say that there's only two things that really matter, 370 00:26:13,244 --> 00:26:16,024 which is the hash rate and the merchant adoption rate. 371 00:26:16,264 --> 00:26:18,104 Everything else is noise. 372 00:26:19,364 --> 00:26:20,984 So, yeah, it's great to see. 373 00:26:21,284 --> 00:26:29,564 We've got a dashboard up on btcmap.org where you can see the stats on a daily basis. 374 00:26:30,644 --> 00:26:32,584 And, you know, you wake up every morning. 375 00:26:32,684 --> 00:26:33,384 Well, I do at least. 376 00:26:33,644 --> 00:26:39,364 look at my notifications and see how many merchants got added whilst I was asleep. 377 00:26:39,684 --> 00:26:43,604 It's a real privilege to watch those numbers roll in, really. 378 00:26:45,784 --> 00:26:49,024 What has the growth rate been like, Nathan? 379 00:26:49,084 --> 00:26:50,564 Have you seen an acceleration? 380 00:26:51,804 --> 00:26:59,344 So, for example, if it is growing at an average of 2% or 3% a month for the last X months, 381 00:26:59,344 --> 00:27:04,084 Have you suddenly seen that 2% or 3% jump up to 10% or something like that? 382 00:27:04,124 --> 00:27:08,464 It sounds like, based on what you're saying, there's a jump in the growth rate itself. 383 00:27:08,944 --> 00:27:14,204 Yeah, I'd have to go and do some analysis on that because it's a good question to ask. 384 00:27:14,204 --> 00:27:23,704 So what we see is certainly bursts of activity based upon, you know, steak and shake, for example, coming online. 385 00:27:23,704 --> 00:27:27,604 but that does tend to just 386 00:27:27,604 --> 00:27:30,864 then blend into the background rate 387 00:27:30,864 --> 00:27:35,004 I'd say we're looking 388 00:27:35,004 --> 00:27:37,024 linear-ish 389 00:27:37,024 --> 00:27:42,804 I need to plot a line of best fit on this 390 00:27:42,804 --> 00:27:45,064 maybe slightly more than linear right now 391 00:27:45,064 --> 00:27:49,064 but it's certainly not a power law or anything 392 00:27:49,064 --> 00:27:51,824 Vibe it man 393 00:27:51,824 --> 00:27:54,204 you Shakespeare 394 00:27:54,204 --> 00:27:56,564 Shakespeare 395 00:27:56,564 --> 00:27:59,644 did you see any 396 00:27:59,644 --> 00:28:01,364 change in the 397 00:28:01,364 --> 00:28:03,184 and you might not have 398 00:28:03,184 --> 00:28:04,984 I'm just kind of going off the cuff here but 399 00:28:04,984 --> 00:28:06,764 with the Trump administration 400 00:28:06,764 --> 00:28:09,104 you can all play with your bitcoins 401 00:28:09,104 --> 00:28:11,704 you're all going to have fun playing with your bitcoins 402 00:28:11,704 --> 00:28:13,844 did you see 403 00:28:13,844 --> 00:28:15,624 any kind of sense of 404 00:28:15,624 --> 00:28:17,664 relief on the map as far 405 00:28:17,664 --> 00:28:18,244 as growth? 406 00:28:18,824 --> 00:28:21,784 not really I mean the US is 407 00:28:21,784 --> 00:28:25,124 The US kind of sucks with BTC Maps, honestly. 408 00:28:25,944 --> 00:28:31,244 It has been increasing and it has been related to the change of administration. 409 00:28:31,864 --> 00:28:44,464 But still globally, in terms of number of merchants, it's nowhere near where it should be given the population size and the prominence of Bitcoin in the US as well. 410 00:28:44,524 --> 00:28:46,684 But I think you've got the IRS to blame for that one. 411 00:28:48,304 --> 00:28:51,044 So, yeah, I think we definitely have seen a change. 412 00:28:51,784 --> 00:29:00,144 And I think that's what gave Steak and Shake and perhaps even Square the cover they needed to make the moves that they made recently. 413 00:29:01,704 --> 00:29:03,204 So, yeah, it's great to see. 414 00:29:03,204 --> 00:29:16,764 I mean, if we could just see some form of, even if it were just a capital gains allowance for small purchases or something like that for you guys, then I think that would really help things out in the US. 415 00:29:16,764 --> 00:29:20,444 different countries in different parts of the world 416 00:29:20,444 --> 00:29:21,564 have different regulations 417 00:29:21,564 --> 00:29:23,024 so here in the UK for example 418 00:29:23,024 --> 00:29:28,224 if you buy back your Bitcoin within 30 days 419 00:29:28,224 --> 00:29:30,244 then there's no cap gains to pay on it 420 00:29:30,244 --> 00:29:34,004 that's some other rule that's applied to 421 00:29:34,004 --> 00:29:38,924 wash trading stock at the end of a tax year 422 00:29:38,924 --> 00:29:40,604 but it equally applies to Bitcoin 423 00:29:40,604 --> 00:29:45,984 so we've got some laws that apply here in our favour 424 00:29:45,984 --> 00:29:54,064 So yeah, I think something like that happens in the US, then we'll start to see some more merchant growth there. 425 00:29:54,824 --> 00:30:01,304 But even that said, our biggest market in terms of people accessing the website is the US. 426 00:30:05,224 --> 00:30:08,564 Accessing it to look for places, right? 427 00:30:08,564 --> 00:30:15,964 Yeah, to look for whether or not your blank map in your local town has any pen. 428 00:30:15,984 --> 00:30:28,384 on it so we're the number one peekers but yeah just not not oh man that's funny that's interesting 429 00:30:28,384 --> 00:30:35,164 but it will copy obviously he's been peeking at his like every day just hoping you know more than 430 00:30:35,164 --> 00:30:42,444 that jeweler or whatever on uh in new york a jeweler and pub key or something no no there's 431 00:30:42,444 --> 00:30:44,944 Popkey, there's Safari, there's Solid State Coffee. 432 00:30:45,904 --> 00:30:47,324 Those are the three real places. 433 00:30:47,444 --> 00:30:48,524 The rest are ATMs. 434 00:30:48,864 --> 00:30:51,224 I think someone told me there's a flower shop in Brooklyn 435 00:30:51,224 --> 00:30:53,124 or a wine shop, I can't remember now. 436 00:30:54,224 --> 00:30:57,424 Yeah, I'm rocking tons of ATMs and a jeweler. 437 00:30:58,464 --> 00:31:00,384 And I've even thought, you know, 438 00:31:00,444 --> 00:31:01,704 maybe I need to go check out that jeweler 439 00:31:01,704 --> 00:31:03,344 and just get a confirmation. 440 00:31:04,724 --> 00:31:06,804 Because, you know, I did notice on the chart 441 00:31:06,804 --> 00:31:09,104 that confirmed locations, 442 00:31:09,644 --> 00:31:11,584 it goes up and it goes down. 443 00:31:11,584 --> 00:31:18,524 it's not a it's not a up and to the right type of thing i mean maybe if i zoom out it is but uh 444 00:31:18,524 --> 00:31:25,664 do people come and add and subtract locations often nathan um yeah it does happen for sure um 445 00:31:25,664 --> 00:31:33,864 we we deem something as not recently verified if it hasn't been checked within the last 12 months 446 00:31:33,864 --> 00:31:40,704 um so it doesn't mean that they don't accept bitcoin but the our confidence level is is is 447 00:31:40,704 --> 00:31:49,424 lower so that's what you see with those recently verified dips and then the another key metric is 448 00:31:49,424 --> 00:31:57,424 the average age of the last verification so I think we're sitting just over a year on average 449 00:31:57,424 --> 00:32:05,924 at the moment so yeah much more verification needed that really differs on a per geography 450 00:32:05,924 --> 00:32:13,584 basis so some communities are excellent some countries are excellent like brazil for example 451 00:32:13,584 --> 00:32:23,144 but yeah we just need to have more local verifiers and and taggers so if you're thinking about what 452 00:32:23,144 --> 00:32:29,624 you can do for bitcoin and you're not a coder then maintain your local btc map data 453 00:32:29,624 --> 00:32:32,644 Avi's doing that full time now 454 00:32:32,644 --> 00:32:37,064 a shadowy super tagger 455 00:32:37,064 --> 00:32:37,864 yeah there you go 456 00:32:37,864 --> 00:32:42,244 so Nathan you've had a recent 457 00:32:42,244 --> 00:32:44,764 major lifestyle change 458 00:32:44,764 --> 00:32:46,124 in the last 459 00:32:46,124 --> 00:32:48,184 what is it less than a month 460 00:32:48,184 --> 00:32:49,804 you want to talk about that 461 00:32:49,804 --> 00:32:53,784 yeah so I joined you 462 00:32:53,784 --> 00:32:56,764 in the great unwashed 463 00:32:56,764 --> 00:32:57,504 the unemployed 464 00:32:57,504 --> 00:33:00,844 So I quit my fiat mining, finally. 465 00:33:02,984 --> 00:33:06,264 What led to that decision, Nathan? 466 00:33:06,324 --> 00:33:08,764 Because you weren't full-time at that point, right? 467 00:33:08,784 --> 00:33:13,504 You'd already sort of downscaled a little bit, but you still had a foot in the door. 468 00:33:14,804 --> 00:33:15,564 Yeah, correct. 469 00:33:15,944 --> 00:33:20,304 So, yeah, it's kind of slowly been winding down. 470 00:33:22,064 --> 00:33:25,883 Used the last couple of years to basically stack as hard as I could. 471 00:33:27,504 --> 00:33:30,684 which I'm grateful for at the moment, for sure. 472 00:33:31,784 --> 00:33:34,144 But yeah, I ended up doing a couple of days a week 473 00:33:34,144 --> 00:33:37,084 in the sort of IT consulting space. 474 00:33:38,864 --> 00:33:40,564 And then, yeah, I just got to the point 475 00:33:40,564 --> 00:33:42,224 where there was so much to do 476 00:33:42,224 --> 00:33:44,184 across so many different areas, 477 00:33:44,344 --> 00:33:45,644 not just BTC map. 478 00:33:45,764 --> 00:33:47,904 There's loads of stuff I want to do on NOSTA as well. 479 00:33:49,624 --> 00:33:51,644 And yeah, it's just that, 480 00:33:51,864 --> 00:33:53,644 although it was only a couple of days a week, 481 00:33:54,304 --> 00:33:57,064 there was part of my brain being occupied 482 00:33:57,064 --> 00:33:59,244 in things that were deeply uninteresting. 483 00:34:00,383 --> 00:34:02,324 And it was kind of just stopping me 484 00:34:02,324 --> 00:34:06,444 from really getting creative on the Nostra side 485 00:34:06,444 --> 00:34:07,744 and on the BTC map side. 486 00:34:08,084 --> 00:34:10,144 So, you know, life's short. 487 00:34:11,244 --> 00:34:15,684 So, yeah, that got killed and full-time freedom tech now. 488 00:34:16,604 --> 00:34:20,564 You get a couple coats of wax on that Nomad van 489 00:34:20,564 --> 00:34:22,064 that you had before? 490 00:34:23,344 --> 00:34:25,424 Yeah, it's in the driveway right now. 491 00:34:25,524 --> 00:34:26,844 We're just getting it ready, actually. 492 00:34:26,844 --> 00:34:30,104 They were off on a trip next week for a couple of weeks. 493 00:34:30,404 --> 00:34:33,064 So, yeah, just getting everything nice. 494 00:34:33,064 --> 00:34:34,484 How often do you use that? 495 00:34:34,524 --> 00:34:39,044 Because I know it was a lifestyle for you per our last show with COVID, 496 00:34:39,224 --> 00:34:41,764 but in the COVID times. 497 00:34:42,464 --> 00:34:44,644 But you still go back to that? 498 00:34:44,704 --> 00:34:45,644 You still take it often? 499 00:34:46,064 --> 00:34:49,184 Is it something that's still part of your experience? 500 00:34:49,364 --> 00:34:50,144 Yeah, 100%. 501 00:34:50,144 --> 00:34:53,324 I mean, it's there as the escape hatch. 502 00:34:53,664 --> 00:34:56,604 So it's always fueled up and ready to go. 503 00:34:56,844 --> 00:35:00,044 So it's kind of our grab bag on wheels. 504 00:35:01,224 --> 00:35:04,284 But no, apart from that, it's, yeah, we holiday in it. 505 00:35:04,284 --> 00:35:17,135 We whether that a weekend away with friends or over the summers we tend to get away for you know six weeks in it or whatever So yeah very much still used but yeah not full in it like we were 506 00:35:22,615 --> 00:35:29,275 So you mentioned Noster, and I have not been following it closely enough, 507 00:35:29,275 --> 00:35:34,515 but I believe there's a NIP that might apply to BTC map 508 00:35:34,515 --> 00:35:36,416 or something you're pushing for developing. 509 00:35:36,956 --> 00:35:39,515 Maybe like a proof of anything type of NIP. 510 00:35:40,095 --> 00:35:41,115 You want to talk about that? 511 00:35:41,535 --> 00:35:42,155 Yeah, sure. 512 00:35:43,175 --> 00:35:47,175 So yeah, it's a good way of talking about it, really proof of anything. 513 00:35:47,175 --> 00:35:50,775 So it's called attestations. 514 00:35:52,376 --> 00:35:57,655 And so I've not actually submitted that as a PR onto the main repo. 515 00:35:57,655 --> 00:36:07,255 I'm using the kind of custom nip format that Alex Gleason created so that's just 516 00:36:07,255 --> 00:36:14,035 sitting up on Nostahub right now as a custom nip which I think is a really 517 00:36:14,035 --> 00:36:19,775 good way of doing it because it makes nips that are coming out discoverable 518 00:36:19,775 --> 00:36:26,655 and it surfaces them rather than have them buried in a git repo so particularly 519 00:36:26,655 --> 00:36:32,335 I know if you're vibing stuff and creating new areas, then I think it's a really good way to 520 00:36:33,295 --> 00:36:41,295 sort of define these things now. So yeah, so the backstory was is that we have a places NIP. 521 00:36:42,015 --> 00:36:47,295 Again, that's not been merged either, but it represents a merchant and we talked about that 522 00:36:47,295 --> 00:36:56,416 last time. But of course with NOSDA, anyone can claim or can publish a place event and they could 523 00:36:56,416 --> 00:37:00,655 publish the same place event for a physical place in the real world, 524 00:37:01,396 --> 00:37:03,815 but it's signed by two different private keys. 525 00:37:05,396 --> 00:37:11,215 So you get into how do we prove which is the correct owner of that. 526 00:37:11,916 --> 00:37:13,856 So that was a problem that I was working on, 527 00:37:13,896 --> 00:37:15,215 and we talked about that last time. 528 00:37:16,696 --> 00:37:21,535 And that was ultimately solved or will be solved through proof of place. 529 00:37:23,055 --> 00:37:26,155 And so just recently, actually, before BTC Prague, 530 00:37:26,416 --> 00:37:29,916 we did a test run of that. 531 00:37:29,916 --> 00:37:35,015 So we were mailing out some shared secrets 532 00:37:35,015 --> 00:37:38,535 to the owners of these places. 533 00:37:39,655 --> 00:37:42,055 So that was mailed to their physical mailbox 534 00:37:42,055 --> 00:37:43,215 that they were claiming. 535 00:37:44,515 --> 00:37:47,015 And then we locked a secret effectively 536 00:37:47,015 --> 00:37:49,416 to their private key, their NSEC. 537 00:37:49,555 --> 00:37:51,755 So if they could unlock that secret, 538 00:37:52,115 --> 00:37:53,495 it proved two things. 539 00:37:53,655 --> 00:37:55,235 They have access to the mailbox 540 00:37:55,235 --> 00:37:57,655 because they were able to open the letter 541 00:37:57,655 --> 00:38:01,675 and they were able to decode the secret 542 00:38:01,675 --> 00:38:03,436 and so they had access to NSAC. 543 00:38:04,495 --> 00:38:07,295 So what that meant is that we could then as, 544 00:38:07,896 --> 00:38:09,515 you know, an oracle if you like, 545 00:38:09,675 --> 00:38:11,975 BTC map needed a way to signal 546 00:38:11,975 --> 00:38:15,975 that we thought that that place was valid. 547 00:38:17,635 --> 00:38:20,815 And so that then got me thinking about 548 00:38:20,815 --> 00:38:22,275 how do we do that? 549 00:38:22,376 --> 00:38:23,916 There's no real way to do that. 550 00:38:23,916 --> 00:38:26,075 at the moment you might want to do it with badges 551 00:38:26,075 --> 00:38:28,215 but they tend to be 552 00:38:28,215 --> 00:38:29,436 a little bit more 553 00:38:29,436 --> 00:38:32,235 let's say 554 00:38:32,235 --> 00:38:33,416 jovial 555 00:38:33,416 --> 00:38:34,335 they're not 556 00:38:34,335 --> 00:38:38,856 they're not serious 557 00:38:38,856 --> 00:38:41,995 they're not meant to be serious 558 00:38:41,995 --> 00:38:44,876 they could be serious 559 00:38:44,876 --> 00:38:47,075 but they didn't really 560 00:38:47,075 --> 00:38:50,315 display the seriousness 561 00:38:50,315 --> 00:38:52,795 that we were looking for 562 00:38:52,795 --> 00:38:59,696 so yeah attestations is how I think we can solve that 563 00:38:59,696 --> 00:39:02,215 so there is an attestations NIP 564 00:39:02,215 --> 00:39:06,936 it's quite simple at the base level 565 00:39:06,936 --> 00:39:08,655 you've just got attestations 566 00:39:08,655 --> 00:39:12,575 which is basically like a notary or noster 567 00:39:12,575 --> 00:39:16,696 so if you think about you go to a lawyer or whatever 568 00:39:16,696 --> 00:39:17,615 wherever you are in the world 569 00:39:17,615 --> 00:39:22,416 and they have to stamp something as being true or untrue 570 00:39:22,416 --> 00:39:26,315 it's kind of like that but it's on NOSTA 571 00:39:26,315 --> 00:39:30,876 so how I expanded this is that 572 00:39:30,876 --> 00:39:33,235 you can use any NOSTA event 573 00:39:33,235 --> 00:39:35,436 can be attested 574 00:39:35,436 --> 00:39:40,436 so you just reference the, we call it the subject event 575 00:39:40,436 --> 00:39:43,535 so it's the event that is subject to the attestation 576 00:39:43,535 --> 00:39:47,315 and anyone can attest anything 577 00:39:47,315 --> 00:39:51,476 so this is very flexible so any event of any kind 578 00:39:51,476 --> 00:39:55,315 can be a subject event. So it's quite a big design space. 579 00:39:56,456 --> 00:39:59,675 So back to the BTC map example, once 580 00:39:59,675 --> 00:40:03,075 we've done our out of band verification 581 00:40:03,075 --> 00:40:07,715 that's convinced ourselves that we believe 582 00:40:07,715 --> 00:40:11,495 this place is legitimate, then we're able to 583 00:40:11,495 --> 00:40:14,495 publish an attestation event from the BTC map 584 00:40:14,495 --> 00:40:18,976 account to say we attest this is the truth. 585 00:40:18,976 --> 00:40:25,135 so it's valid or invalid if we found that it couldn't be done. 586 00:40:26,655 --> 00:40:30,515 So we talk a lot about web of trust in NOSTA 587 00:40:30,515 --> 00:40:35,215 and we kind of usually think about that at the NPUB level 588 00:40:35,215 --> 00:40:37,916 so the trust between the key pairs. 589 00:40:38,976 --> 00:40:45,075 What attestations do in my view is take that down to the event level 590 00:40:45,075 --> 00:40:48,235 so it's a web of trust for events 591 00:40:48,235 --> 00:40:50,115 if you want to think about it like that 592 00:40:50,115 --> 00:40:55,916 so I hadn't really thought how powerful that is 593 00:40:55,916 --> 00:40:59,035 I was just trying to solve my own problem with BTC Map Places 594 00:40:59,035 --> 00:41:01,835 but I've been since working with Tim Boomer 595 00:41:01,835 --> 00:41:05,135 who's doing a lot of work on Safebox 596 00:41:05,135 --> 00:41:11,175 and it unlocks a lot of the problems that he's grappling with 597 00:41:11,175 --> 00:41:16,055 in terms of credentials and verifiable records. 598 00:41:17,896 --> 00:41:25,535 And so we get to a point really where anyone can be an Oracle now, 599 00:41:25,635 --> 00:41:32,315 so we don't need to look for trusted credential issuers 600 00:41:32,315 --> 00:41:37,936 to say somebody has or has not certain capabilities. 601 00:41:37,936 --> 00:41:46,195 we move to this kind of first person view of the world where we can issue ourselves the claim that 602 00:41:46,195 --> 00:41:54,315 we want to make whether that be a place or a claim of competence in a certain area or whatever else 603 00:41:54,315 --> 00:42:00,896 any other rhinoceros event type but we get to make the claim as on a first person basis 604 00:42:00,896 --> 00:42:07,416 and then anyone else can attest to that or not. 605 00:42:08,255 --> 00:42:09,976 And those can just be other plebs 606 00:42:09,976 --> 00:42:13,356 or that could be a bigger node 607 00:42:13,356 --> 00:42:15,315 weighted in your web of trust 608 00:42:15,315 --> 00:42:19,916 that has a certain skill set 609 00:42:19,916 --> 00:42:22,535 in verifying a certain kind. 610 00:42:22,535 --> 00:42:26,815 So, you know, BTCMAP would have a lot of trust 611 00:42:26,815 --> 00:42:28,795 verifying places perhaps, 612 00:42:28,795 --> 00:42:33,675 but other people might want to verify software releases 613 00:42:33,675 --> 00:42:35,936 from your favorite software engineer 614 00:42:35,936 --> 00:42:39,856 who's verified that a build of some other piece of software 615 00:42:39,856 --> 00:42:43,135 that they haven't worked on is valid or invalid. 616 00:42:44,376 --> 00:42:48,795 So it just really opens up a whole raft of use cases, I think, 617 00:42:49,035 --> 00:42:54,055 because we're not placing our trust in anyone anymore 618 00:42:54,055 --> 00:42:58,476 other than those that we deem worthy of our trust. 619 00:42:58,795 --> 00:43:10,695 Nathan, could you give a simple example of, because this is an intriguing concept that you bring up, the web of trust moving from the NPub level to the event level. 620 00:43:11,015 --> 00:43:18,856 But to make it real, can you give a simple example that demonstrates how the web of trust is applicable at the event level? 621 00:43:19,815 --> 00:43:23,555 Yeah, so we already covered the place one. 622 00:43:23,555 --> 00:43:28,755 so if BTC map had attested that a certain place was valid 623 00:43:28,755 --> 00:43:31,795 then you could weight that within your web of trust 624 00:43:31,795 --> 00:43:34,735 and say okay well this is probably the key pair 625 00:43:34,735 --> 00:43:39,515 that is linked for the key pair in cyberspace 626 00:43:39,515 --> 00:43:41,315 to the physical place in meatspace 627 00:43:41,315 --> 00:43:42,916 that's one example 628 00:43:42,916 --> 00:43:47,555 other examples are with Zapstore for example 629 00:43:47,555 --> 00:43:50,135 so talking to the guys there 630 00:43:50,135 --> 00:43:54,896 where an individual release, a software release, is published 631 00:43:54,896 --> 00:44:00,515 and then other people could attest that they have verified that 632 00:44:00,515 --> 00:44:05,715 and recreated that if it's a recreatable build. 633 00:44:07,615 --> 00:44:09,295 And as long as you trust those people, you say, 634 00:44:09,295 --> 00:44:17,115 well, actually, now I know two or three people that I deem as capable in this area 635 00:44:17,115 --> 00:44:19,535 have attested that this build is legitimate. 636 00:44:20,135 --> 00:44:23,235 So I'm just going to go and install it because I trust those people. 637 00:44:23,396 --> 00:44:24,775 You might want to make that judgment. 638 00:44:27,295 --> 00:44:30,575 So yeah, those are two examples. 639 00:44:30,575 --> 00:44:33,755 And then if you want to take it even further, 640 00:44:34,255 --> 00:44:39,515 and I talked about the custom nips that Alex has been working on. 641 00:44:40,476 --> 00:44:46,976 I call it the nip nip, which is a nip that defines a nip. 642 00:44:46,976 --> 00:44:53,235 so we can create all of these nips now anyone can do it they don't have to be merged 643 00:44:53,235 --> 00:45:01,035 you can just create a nip and if people start using it and it and it gets traction then you 644 00:45:01,035 --> 00:45:09,035 know maybe it's legitimate right and so what we can now do using attestations is attest to 645 00:45:09,035 --> 00:45:18,655 various other nips as being valid or invalid almost like an ACK-NAC on a per nip basis 646 00:45:18,655 --> 00:45:26,095 and we actually then start to have an emergent NOSTA protocol that's different for everyone but 647 00:45:26,095 --> 00:45:32,155 obviously wouldn't work unless there's a large commonality certainly for the base kinds 648 00:45:32,155 --> 00:45:36,135 but we get to define what the protocol is 649 00:45:36,135 --> 00:45:38,635 on an individual level 650 00:45:38,635 --> 00:45:42,235 and the mechanism to do that would be attestations 651 00:45:42,235 --> 00:45:47,615 going back to 652 00:45:47,615 --> 00:45:49,155 the map 653 00:45:49,155 --> 00:45:54,035 so you're talking about BTC map providing an attestation 654 00:45:54,035 --> 00:45:55,876 and if I understood correctly 655 00:45:55,876 --> 00:45:58,775 there is this entire workflow 656 00:45:58,775 --> 00:46:01,015 of mailing out a shared secret 657 00:46:01,015 --> 00:46:02,976 to the venue, correct? 658 00:46:03,976 --> 00:46:05,555 Yeah, that works. 659 00:46:06,615 --> 00:46:08,436 How does that scale, Nathan? 660 00:46:08,555 --> 00:46:12,095 Because right now you're talking about 16,000 locations. 661 00:46:12,356 --> 00:46:14,835 So that's 16,000 pieces of paper and ink 662 00:46:14,835 --> 00:46:19,095 that you'll have to mail out, postage and whatnot. 663 00:46:20,195 --> 00:46:22,695 If you're talking about millions of places on the map, 664 00:46:22,835 --> 00:46:24,335 I mean, fill the map. 665 00:46:24,335 --> 00:46:26,175 It's going to succeed. 666 00:46:26,655 --> 00:46:28,976 You definitely wouldn't want to do that by hand. 667 00:46:29,495 --> 00:46:30,015 Right. 668 00:46:30,015 --> 00:46:34,916 So how would you scale that verification process for B2CMap? 669 00:46:35,695 --> 00:46:41,195 Well, the one that we did just prior to Prague, I built a system to do it. 670 00:46:41,195 --> 00:46:48,575 So I vibed meatspacester.io or X, Y, Z. 671 00:46:48,575 --> 00:46:49,155 I can't remember. 672 00:46:49,155 --> 00:46:52,396 I think it's .io as a tool. 673 00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:54,707 to help me do that. 674 00:46:54,887 --> 00:46:57,187 So you select the place, 675 00:46:57,187 --> 00:47:01,427 it automatically, in this case, 676 00:47:01,627 --> 00:47:02,507 at this stage at least, 677 00:47:02,627 --> 00:47:04,647 prints out the thing you have to mail. 678 00:47:05,827 --> 00:47:08,987 But there are mailing providers globally 679 00:47:08,987 --> 00:47:11,287 that you can just do that via the API. 680 00:47:12,327 --> 00:47:14,907 So we've done some tests on that as well. 681 00:47:15,427 --> 00:47:17,607 So in short, it'd be fully automated. 682 00:47:17,887 --> 00:47:19,547 So somebody would request it, 683 00:47:19,927 --> 00:47:21,727 the workflow would start, 684 00:47:21,727 --> 00:47:25,007 the thing would get mailed 685 00:47:25,007 --> 00:47:29,327 and if they can get access to the secret 686 00:47:29,327 --> 00:47:33,407 then they get their BTC map blue check 687 00:47:33,407 --> 00:47:34,847 or purple check 688 00:47:34,847 --> 00:47:39,287 Who bears the cost of the meatspace resources? 689 00:47:39,627 --> 00:47:41,887 There's postage, there's paper, there's ink 690 00:47:41,887 --> 00:47:44,167 Yeah, so that would have to be a paid service 691 00:47:44,167 --> 00:47:46,707 And who would pay for that? 692 00:47:47,367 --> 00:47:51,447 The place that wanted the attestation 693 00:47:51,447 --> 00:47:54,247 for the merchant effectively. 694 00:47:58,527 --> 00:47:59,167 Yeah. 695 00:48:00,627 --> 00:48:01,427 Have you? 696 00:48:02,107 --> 00:48:04,967 Yeah, the costs, you're probably looking at 697 00:48:04,967 --> 00:48:08,847 minimum $5 cost to get that done. 698 00:48:10,067 --> 00:48:10,727 Right. 699 00:48:13,627 --> 00:48:16,347 And I didn't realize there's a... 700 00:48:16,347 --> 00:48:19,127 I think QW, we either live in the Stone Age 701 00:48:19,127 --> 00:48:22,547 or in the US, or we're just out of the loop 702 00:48:22,547 --> 00:48:26,767 when it comes to how mailing automation works. 703 00:48:26,867 --> 00:48:29,527 But I was not aware that these mailers have APIs 704 00:48:29,527 --> 00:48:31,947 where you could actually build out the workflow 705 00:48:31,947 --> 00:48:34,327 to automate all of this. 706 00:48:37,267 --> 00:48:40,327 Yeah, it works, and I think they cover the US as well. 707 00:48:43,787 --> 00:48:47,887 QW, have you ever used one of these mailing APIs? 708 00:48:49,127 --> 00:49:00,907 uh no no no uh it's funny because the the one thing our my family business does not own uh 709 00:49:00,907 --> 00:49:05,307 you know we own the property the business everything but we the only thing we don't own 710 00:49:05,307 --> 00:49:12,967 is the uh the postage scale that uh that prints off the the postage was paid that's the closest 711 00:49:12,967 --> 00:49:14,787 thing we get to mailing 712 00:49:14,787 --> 00:49:16,247 APIs and whatnot. 713 00:49:17,467 --> 00:49:18,927 Clearly, just 714 00:49:18,927 --> 00:49:19,887 light years ahead, 715 00:49:20,647 --> 00:49:22,827 behind, I suppose, and I'm okay 716 00:49:22,827 --> 00:49:24,787 with that. You guys are still mailing 717 00:49:24,787 --> 00:49:25,787 checks to each other. 718 00:49:27,367 --> 00:49:27,927 Yeah. 719 00:49:28,387 --> 00:49:30,647 I handwrite the LNBC 720 00:49:30,647 --> 00:49:32,727 invoice when I send it to 721 00:49:32,727 --> 00:49:34,287 QW. Can you believe that? 722 00:49:35,727 --> 00:49:36,947 I can see you there 723 00:49:36,947 --> 00:49:38,867 with your feather. 724 00:49:40,807 --> 00:49:42,827 We mail the 725 00:49:42,827 --> 00:49:48,847 We mailed the InPub, our insect, to our shared PubChain Radio account to each other. 726 00:49:51,987 --> 00:49:54,427 He's also my pen pal, so there you go. 727 00:49:57,687 --> 00:50:07,127 Yeah, so on the attestations front, then, that opens up a lot of stuff on these credentials. 728 00:50:07,127 --> 00:50:13,227 and there's lots of talk about digital identities in various parts of the world 729 00:50:13,227 --> 00:50:15,067 and they'll require an issuer. 730 00:50:15,887 --> 00:50:18,387 The government will issue you your identity. 731 00:50:20,087 --> 00:50:24,887 In fact, the government does that now in a kind of paper-based 732 00:50:24,887 --> 00:50:26,747 and increasingly digital way. 733 00:50:26,747 --> 00:50:30,267 So when you're born, you get your birth certificate, 734 00:50:30,747 --> 00:50:31,927 you get issued a passport. 735 00:50:31,927 --> 00:50:41,827 you effectively rent these off the government in exchange for good behavior and they can be removed at any point, right? 736 00:50:44,387 --> 00:50:56,207 So what we get with this kind of first-person view of the world is that you issue your own truths as you see them 737 00:50:56,207 --> 00:51:00,467 and then other people attest to those or not. 738 00:51:00,467 --> 00:51:07,187 so you can imagine in the future you might have a driving license NIP 739 00:51:07,187 --> 00:51:09,167 or a driving NIP or whatever 740 00:51:09,167 --> 00:51:15,327 and you would state that here are your skill sets 741 00:51:15,327 --> 00:51:20,207 and you would have others, perhaps it's the driving agency or whatever 742 00:51:20,207 --> 00:51:26,767 that would then attest to that being valid or not 743 00:51:26,767 --> 00:51:33,947 and so it really inverts this traditional power structure of issuing credentials versus 744 00:51:33,947 --> 00:51:38,887 stating yourself what you believe to be true and then having others 745 00:51:38,887 --> 00:51:47,487 help me think that through though nathan because all of this makes sense in a self-contained 746 00:51:47,487 --> 00:51:56,587 digital ecosystem the minute you start talking about the intersection points between the digital 747 00:51:56,587 --> 00:51:58,287 realm and meatspace. 748 00:51:59,227 --> 00:52:06,847 Meatspace has its legal code, which I dare say is enforced by an authority typically at 749 00:52:06,847 --> 00:52:11,647 the pointy end of a gun, in the worst case scenario, of course. 750 00:52:12,687 --> 00:52:21,987 How does a self-issued credential hold any validity in front of that barrel of a gun? 751 00:52:21,987 --> 00:52:27,247 It doesn't unless the person behind the gun recognizes it. 752 00:52:27,547 --> 00:52:30,087 But we have to start somewhere. 753 00:52:30,407 --> 00:52:34,947 So we have to start claiming sovereignty over all of these things 754 00:52:34,947 --> 00:52:38,707 and presenting when required. 755 00:52:39,967 --> 00:52:44,087 And then over time, things will change. 756 00:52:44,087 --> 00:52:49,667 And just like every company does not last forever 757 00:52:49,667 --> 00:52:52,347 and has to fail, really. 758 00:52:53,067 --> 00:52:56,547 It's the same with countries and administrations 759 00:52:56,547 --> 00:53:00,267 and issuers of credentials. 760 00:53:01,007 --> 00:53:04,287 So for somebody to issue a credential, 761 00:53:04,487 --> 00:53:06,047 there has to be an issuer. 762 00:53:07,267 --> 00:53:10,027 And issuers, by definition, can't last forever. 763 00:53:10,027 --> 00:53:13,087 So at some point, the thing that they have issued 764 00:53:13,087 --> 00:53:14,467 will become worthless anyway. 765 00:53:15,567 --> 00:53:17,827 So we just have to start doing it ourselves. 766 00:53:17,827 --> 00:53:20,847 and we've got cryptography to do that 767 00:53:20,847 --> 00:53:22,707 so we don't need an issuer anymore. 768 00:53:24,267 --> 00:53:26,007 Right, and the idea being 769 00:53:26,007 --> 00:53:27,527 you are the issuer 770 00:53:27,527 --> 00:53:29,927 and then you have your network 771 00:53:29,927 --> 00:53:34,487 that attests on the validity or lack thereof 772 00:53:34,487 --> 00:53:37,207 and for any transactions 773 00:53:37,207 --> 00:53:39,467 that involve that credential 774 00:53:39,467 --> 00:53:42,527 or whatever, that artifact 775 00:53:42,527 --> 00:53:47,067 as long as they accept the attestations 776 00:53:47,067 --> 00:53:50,447 from these other folks is valid, it's good enough. 777 00:53:50,807 --> 00:53:54,067 So you just carry on with life in that process, right? 778 00:53:54,167 --> 00:53:55,027 Yeah, exactly that. 779 00:53:55,027 --> 00:53:57,787 So you have to weigh those attestations 780 00:53:57,787 --> 00:54:01,287 within your own parameters for web of trust. 781 00:54:02,687 --> 00:54:05,107 And web of trust, for me, is a vector. 782 00:54:05,447 --> 00:54:08,327 It's to what extent, how much, 783 00:54:08,407 --> 00:54:09,887 what's the magnitude of the trust, 784 00:54:09,987 --> 00:54:11,367 and in what direction. 785 00:54:11,807 --> 00:54:14,027 So trust about what. 786 00:54:14,027 --> 00:54:16,607 and so depending on 787 00:54:16,607 --> 00:54:17,847 the 788 00:54:17,847 --> 00:54:20,687 subject kind and 789 00:54:20,687 --> 00:54:22,847 the attestor, the person making 790 00:54:22,847 --> 00:54:24,807 the attestation then different 791 00:54:24,807 --> 00:54:27,007 people will make different judgment calls 792 00:54:27,007 --> 00:54:27,807 based upon 793 00:54:27,807 --> 00:54:30,827 their own view of the world and 794 00:54:30,827 --> 00:54:32,507 their own truths really 795 00:54:32,507 --> 00:54:37,007 truth is a very local 796 00:54:37,007 --> 00:54:39,067 thing, it's what you believe 797 00:54:39,067 --> 00:54:40,667 it's not what other people believe 798 00:54:40,667 --> 00:54:42,587 so let's just 799 00:54:42,587 --> 00:54:46,087 think through this hypothetical scenario on attestations, 800 00:54:46,287 --> 00:54:48,747 which is, and we'll take an extreme example, 801 00:54:48,847 --> 00:54:50,567 which is a self-issued passport. 802 00:54:52,027 --> 00:54:55,107 And it's attested by a certain number of people. 803 00:54:55,227 --> 00:54:58,147 So it's a Bitcoiner, they've self-issued themselves a passport, 804 00:54:58,907 --> 00:55:02,547 and they want to go to Roatan, or Prospera, rather, 805 00:55:02,547 --> 00:55:07,647 the Bitcoin community in Roatan, the island of Honduras, 806 00:55:07,847 --> 00:55:11,587 which is governed by international treaty 807 00:55:11,587 --> 00:55:13,927 and not part of... 808 00:55:13,927 --> 00:55:15,707 I don't fully understand... 809 00:55:15,707 --> 00:55:16,207 It's a free city. 810 00:55:16,727 --> 00:55:17,707 It's a free city, right. 811 00:55:18,887 --> 00:55:23,867 And if the person letting you into Rochan 812 00:55:23,867 --> 00:55:26,547 says, yeah, this attestation is good enough for me, 813 00:55:27,007 --> 00:55:28,447 I don't need to see your passport, 814 00:55:28,867 --> 00:55:29,627 then that would work. 815 00:55:30,467 --> 00:55:32,487 So, I mean, yeah. 816 00:55:33,327 --> 00:55:37,367 So it's up to the person making the judgment call 817 00:55:37,367 --> 00:55:41,367 whether they recognize the base event 818 00:55:41,367 --> 00:55:45,367 and weight the attestations of that appropriately. 819 00:55:45,367 --> 00:55:52,247 So, yeah, I mean, we're not going to be flying into the US on these anytime soon, that's for sure. 820 00:55:52,367 --> 00:55:59,627 But we have the basic building blocks now where we can issue our own credentials 821 00:55:59,627 --> 00:56:02,067 and have other people verify those. 822 00:56:03,447 --> 00:56:05,947 I think we probably need a person nip. 823 00:56:06,507 --> 00:56:08,107 This is me in the real world. 824 00:56:08,107 --> 00:56:12,287 you can put as much information 825 00:56:12,287 --> 00:56:14,707 or as little information as possible on that 826 00:56:14,707 --> 00:56:17,067 of course you don't have to do it 827 00:56:17,067 --> 00:56:22,747 but if I did a person nip for Nathan Day 828 00:56:22,747 --> 00:56:24,287 and signed that with my NSEC 829 00:56:24,287 --> 00:56:27,447 then other people who knew me in meat space 830 00:56:27,447 --> 00:56:29,947 might want to attest that I do have brown eyes 831 00:56:29,947 --> 00:56:32,627 or whatever else 832 00:56:32,627 --> 00:56:37,627 I think those types of things 833 00:56:37,627 --> 00:56:40,387 like proof of place and ultimately proof of person, 834 00:56:41,247 --> 00:56:43,087 to the extent that you want to do that, 835 00:56:43,647 --> 00:56:47,867 really provide some of this connectivity 836 00:56:47,867 --> 00:56:50,607 between cyberspace and meatspace, 837 00:56:50,707 --> 00:56:54,487 because we all live in this meatspace. 838 00:56:54,627 --> 00:56:55,907 We don't live in cyberspace. 839 00:56:56,467 --> 00:57:00,647 So I'm very keen to ground ourselves in the real world. 840 00:57:02,347 --> 00:57:03,647 I think proof... 841 00:57:03,647 --> 00:57:05,907 I'm not entirely convinced proof of person 842 00:57:05,907 --> 00:57:09,947 will have an immediate use case. 843 00:57:10,207 --> 00:57:13,587 However, a subset of proof of person 844 00:57:13,587 --> 00:57:14,767 is proof of profession. 845 00:57:15,547 --> 00:57:17,007 And I think that certainly does. 846 00:57:17,627 --> 00:57:17,727 Yeah. 847 00:57:21,147 --> 00:57:22,747 Yeah, so I'd like the design. 848 00:57:23,067 --> 00:57:26,207 Well, especially with what you've been building, Avi, 849 00:57:26,607 --> 00:57:28,887 with the medical field. 850 00:57:28,887 --> 00:57:32,427 I mean, that would be a pretty tangible one. 851 00:57:32,847 --> 00:57:32,987 Yeah. 852 00:57:32,987 --> 00:57:36,967 And, you know, that's sort of, Tim Boma is kind of the connective tissue here. 853 00:57:37,487 --> 00:57:39,987 He was involved in the Nosfabrica challenge, 854 00:57:39,987 --> 00:57:44,627 and he was working on credentials for things like prescriptions and whatnot, right, 855 00:57:44,667 --> 00:57:45,547 as part of Safebox. 856 00:57:46,387 --> 00:57:52,707 And then Nathan's NIP came out, and he's involved in that as well. 857 00:57:52,887 --> 00:57:57,627 But I think there's a very, in fact, we're trying to solve the exact same problem. 858 00:57:57,627 --> 00:58:04,847 Yeah, and other people have been doing it on a per use case basis and this just makes 859 00:58:04,847 --> 00:58:10,267 it generic so that we can all use it for any subject event. 860 00:58:10,267 --> 00:58:27,358 So yeah the work Tim been doing is basically boiled down the world into eCache and eRecords so cash and records And both of those things can be stored in a safe box that lives on relays 861 00:58:28,878 --> 00:58:32,098 And with attestations on the record side, 862 00:58:32,418 --> 00:58:37,618 that gives it basically everything he needs to build everything 863 00:58:37,618 --> 00:58:41,658 for all the different use cases, including the medical ones. 864 00:58:42,718 --> 00:58:48,018 Love it. 865 00:58:50,418 --> 00:58:55,878 So let's go back to BTC Map and Solid State Coffee, 866 00:58:56,058 --> 00:58:59,278 which is a coffee shop on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, 867 00:58:59,478 --> 00:59:01,398 71st and I believe Columbus Avenue. 868 00:59:01,918 --> 00:59:05,998 So any New York plebs or plebs who are planning to visit New York, 869 00:59:05,998 --> 00:59:08,278 do check it out and support that business. 870 00:59:08,398 --> 00:59:11,138 They're actually thinking about doing something really cool, 871 00:59:11,138 --> 00:59:18,298 which is doing zaps or, I guess, payment splits across their supply chain. 872 00:59:18,378 --> 00:59:20,838 They haven't implemented that yet, but that's their plan. 873 00:59:22,498 --> 00:59:28,338 And to make sure that the split goes all the way down to the farmers and the harvesters. 874 00:59:28,878 --> 00:59:32,178 But in any event, Nathan, I was there. 875 00:59:32,758 --> 00:59:37,878 I took a video of myself making the payment, right? 876 00:59:38,058 --> 00:59:39,438 And now it's out there. 877 00:59:39,438 --> 00:59:43,498 So if you go back to the BTC map verification process, 878 00:59:45,458 --> 00:59:47,918 and let's say you didn't know me, right? 879 00:59:47,938 --> 00:59:49,758 I was just a guy who posted something on Nasta, 880 00:59:49,958 --> 00:59:55,238 or whoever the person in charge of updating the map is. 881 00:59:56,098 --> 01:00:03,358 How much weight would something like that play in getting it on the map, 882 01:00:03,538 --> 01:00:05,298 getting solid state coffee on the map? 883 01:00:05,298 --> 01:00:09,298 Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder 884 01:00:09,298 --> 01:00:12,158 so it's up to 885 01:00:12,158 --> 01:00:16,178 users of the map at that point 886 01:00:16,178 --> 01:00:20,498 because currently we've got our OSM OpenStreetMap 887 01:00:20,498 --> 01:00:23,718 base view of the world and that's much more around editing 888 01:00:23,718 --> 01:00:28,738 a data commons and we all kind of agree on that 889 01:00:28,738 --> 01:00:29,558 as a community 890 01:00:29,558 --> 01:00:35,178 so it's kind of policed really so people keep their 891 01:00:35,178 --> 01:00:43,138 eye on it. Whereas as we move into a Nostra native world, then that coffee shop will publish 892 01:00:43,138 --> 01:00:50,958 a place event with their own that they've signed themselves. And then if you were there 893 01:00:50,958 --> 01:00:59,878 as a customer and you were fairly confident that it was them in control of their Nostra 894 01:00:59,878 --> 01:01:06,858 account and it's the same guys that just gave you your uh your latte or whatever espresso please 895 01:01:06,858 --> 01:01:14,738 sorry nathan sorry sorry i do apologize um he likes the little baby cups it makes him feel bigger 896 01:01:14,738 --> 01:01:19,678 i yeah animal milk in in with caffeine i don't know anyway carry on 897 01:01:19,678 --> 01:01:29,098 um then you could you could attest to that um and then people in new york might uh weight your 898 01:01:29,098 --> 01:01:38,498 opinion on that subject highly or not. And so ultimately they would see that place upranked 899 01:01:38,498 --> 01:01:48,318 if you were in their web of trust and they rated your opinion on places. 900 01:01:51,078 --> 01:01:58,298 So it totally decentralizes all of that and at some point we won't have open street maps per se, 901 01:01:58,298 --> 01:02:06,418 we'll just have place events that have been signed by the owner of the place. 902 01:02:08,938 --> 01:02:16,158 But I think we'll take some time to get all of the merchants that we currently have on Nostra 903 01:02:16,158 --> 01:02:21,198 and then going forward all of the new merchants on Nostra as well. 904 01:02:21,258 --> 01:02:23,178 So we just have to make that as seamless as possible. 905 01:02:23,838 --> 01:02:26,978 They don't really have to know that they're on Nostra perhaps. 906 01:02:26,978 --> 01:02:31,258 we can start with almost like custodial 907 01:02:31,258 --> 01:02:34,878 Nostra accounts to begin with 908 01:02:34,878 --> 01:02:37,738 with the ability for them to rotate out into self-custody 909 01:02:37,738 --> 01:02:39,698 so not dissimilar to the lightning setup 910 01:02:39,698 --> 01:02:42,018 so yeah, lots to do 911 01:02:42,018 --> 01:02:44,518 lots of complexities to hide 912 01:02:44,518 --> 01:02:46,458 but not hiding them too much 913 01:02:46,458 --> 01:02:49,378 so that people can and should take self-custody 914 01:02:49,378 --> 01:02:50,778 when they're ready 915 01:02:50,778 --> 01:02:53,878 Actually, how does that work? 916 01:02:53,878 --> 01:02:57,218 a lot of people have been thinking about 917 01:02:57,218 --> 01:02:58,718 how do you onboard 918 01:02:58,718 --> 01:02:59,938 regular folks 919 01:02:59,938 --> 01:03:02,338 non-bed corners onto Nostra 920 01:03:02,338 --> 01:03:05,618 and make the UX for onboarding 921 01:03:05,618 --> 01:03:06,778 seamless 922 01:03:06,778 --> 01:03:09,398 something that they're used to 923 01:03:09,398 --> 01:03:13,058 so custodial would be 924 01:03:13,058 --> 01:03:14,878 you'd hide the keys 925 01:03:14,878 --> 01:03:16,958 behind an email address 926 01:03:16,958 --> 01:03:18,398 you'd have an email address mapped to the key 927 01:03:18,398 --> 01:03:19,158 or something like that 928 01:03:19,158 --> 01:03:21,158 spin them up a key pair 929 01:03:21,158 --> 01:03:23,478 have that attached to 930 01:03:23,478 --> 01:03:30,258 you know their email or something that they have control over and just make it super simple to 931 01:03:30,258 --> 01:03:40,118 begin with and then start to nudge people in the direction of self-custody yeah exactly that and so 932 01:03:40,118 --> 01:03:49,138 that that needs to also come sort of in parallel with key rotations because if we've you know as a 933 01:03:49,138 --> 01:03:51,738 as a provider spun up a key pair. 934 01:03:52,458 --> 01:03:53,758 Obviously, we delete that, 935 01:03:53,878 --> 01:03:55,838 but you're in a trust me, bro, situation. 936 01:03:56,118 --> 01:03:59,678 So you'd want a mechanism to rotate that key 937 01:03:59,678 --> 01:04:02,738 into the new one that they have custody over. 938 01:04:04,077 --> 01:04:06,577 So yeah, lots of stuff to fix, 939 01:04:06,738 --> 01:04:08,018 but it's all fixable. 940 01:04:08,538 --> 01:04:10,878 But the concept's powerful. 941 01:04:11,718 --> 01:04:14,178 And the key rotation here 942 01:04:14,178 --> 01:04:16,318 sounds like the solution, 943 01:04:16,318 --> 01:04:18,818 it doesn't exist in any meaningful form today 944 01:04:18,818 --> 01:04:20,238 that I'm aware of, right, Nathan? 945 01:04:20,298 --> 01:04:22,698 Because if you're talking about proof of existence, 946 01:04:23,318 --> 01:04:25,597 I mean, there's one big risk there today, right? 947 01:04:26,077 --> 01:04:29,218 Not the future state where we have perfect key rotation. 948 01:04:29,398 --> 01:04:32,738 But if you rug yourself and lose your keys, 949 01:04:33,178 --> 01:04:35,698 you stop existing for all intents and purposes. 950 01:04:35,798 --> 01:04:36,918 Yeah, the stakes are high. 951 01:04:37,958 --> 01:04:40,638 Absolutely, especially if you've linked 952 01:04:40,638 --> 01:04:43,758 meatspace attributes to that 953 01:04:43,758 --> 01:04:47,718 in terms of a person and a passport and a place. 954 01:04:47,718 --> 01:04:59,878 So yeah, we've got much more work to do on the key rotation side and maybe attestations help with that also in terms of social signaling of key rotations. 955 01:04:59,878 --> 01:05:22,577 I think that's a powerful point about Nostra, because when stakes are high and your individual account becomes yourself or your proof of view, you really start to think about how you act on the Internet, how you communicate with the community. 956 01:05:22,577 --> 01:05:32,678 I think it really progresses us into a more positive, build-forward type of mentality versus just, you know, maybe trolling. 957 01:05:32,758 --> 01:05:33,158 I agree. 958 01:05:33,798 --> 01:05:42,958 Because although you can still be anonymous, should you wish, and you can even build reputations around anonymous. 959 01:05:42,958 --> 01:05:47,978 Nostra Identity is certainly in cyberspace 960 01:05:47,978 --> 01:05:50,478 but if you're doing stuff in the real world 961 01:05:50,478 --> 01:05:53,798 then yeah 962 01:05:53,798 --> 01:05:57,198 it enables us to build up those networks 963 01:05:57,198 --> 01:06:01,378 and really take social networking back to what it was 964 01:06:01,378 --> 01:06:04,738 which is actual humans interacting with other humans 965 01:06:04,738 --> 01:06:08,998 based upon expertise, skills and trust 966 01:06:08,998 --> 01:06:14,138 with money 967 01:06:14,138 --> 01:06:18,318 with digital money 968 01:06:18,318 --> 01:06:20,518 digital gold being used 969 01:06:20,518 --> 01:06:21,638 spent frictionlessly 970 01:06:21,638 --> 01:06:24,138 it's an interesting 971 01:06:24,138 --> 01:06:25,398 time to be alive 972 01:06:25,398 --> 01:06:28,298 I wish more people would look into 973 01:06:28,298 --> 01:06:29,998 Noster because 974 01:06:29,998 --> 01:06:30,998 even though 975 01:06:30,998 --> 01:06:33,038 I see some of the sellers 976 01:06:33,038 --> 01:06:35,538 soap miner that's in the audience 977 01:06:35,538 --> 01:06:37,818 he's doing great 978 01:06:37,818 --> 01:06:39,798 I mean, he's got an awesome product. 979 01:06:40,618 --> 01:06:45,138 We are a place, we're a niche in the internet, the world out there, 980 01:06:45,158 --> 01:06:50,778 where people actually look at Bitcoin as money versus, let's say, just some investment strategy. 981 01:06:51,798 --> 01:06:54,898 So it's something where a lot of, it's the chicken and the egg. 982 01:06:54,978 --> 01:07:01,358 Once again, Avi, if more people would just come here, you know, more people would benefit as a whole. 983 01:07:01,698 --> 01:07:05,918 More merchants could come, you know, and you get enough people locally. 984 01:07:05,918 --> 01:07:13,238 I know for me, in the 22nd, we're doing a local Noster, but it's only like 10 of us. 985 01:07:13,597 --> 01:07:21,938 If we can just get 100 of us, that would be a huge push to another merchant to pop up locally and actually join Noster. 986 01:07:22,817 --> 01:07:24,597 So it's just kind of that early stages. 987 01:07:24,918 --> 01:07:29,837 But I suppose early stages is where you build all the tools for the later stages, right? 988 01:07:30,858 --> 01:07:31,898 Yeah, exactly that. 989 01:07:31,898 --> 01:07:35,878 Nathan let's 990 01:07:35,878 --> 01:07:38,978 I actually want to go back to something you brought up 991 01:07:38,978 --> 01:07:40,858 earlier which is in theory 992 01:07:40,858 --> 01:07:43,058 the entire NOSTA protocol 993 01:07:43,058 --> 01:07:44,438 can be defined 994 01:07:44,438 --> 01:07:47,317 by attestation 995 01:07:47,317 --> 01:07:49,317 so and I want 996 01:07:49,317 --> 01:07:50,738 to make sure I spell this out so that 997 01:07:50,738 --> 01:07:53,178 folks understand how powerful 998 01:07:53,178 --> 01:07:54,418 this idea is 999 01:07:54,418 --> 01:07:55,538 which is you 1000 01:07:55,538 --> 01:07:57,778 you can release a NIP 1001 01:07:57,778 --> 01:07:59,378 a custom NIP that 1002 01:07:59,378 --> 01:08:01,317 doesn't have to be 1003 01:08:01,317 --> 01:08:03,577 merged into the main NIP 1004 01:08:03,577 --> 01:08:05,358 street pool, which by the way is a bit of a 1005 01:08:05,358 --> 01:08:07,597 actually, before we move further 1006 01:08:07,597 --> 01:08:09,577 ahead, I'd love to hear your thoughts on 1007 01:08:09,577 --> 01:08:10,618 that, Nathan, which is 1008 01:08:10,618 --> 01:08:13,458 at that point, you're talking about 1009 01:08:13,458 --> 01:08:14,778 NOSTA being permissionless 1010 01:08:14,778 --> 01:08:17,577 but if you're looking for your NIP 1011 01:08:17,577 --> 01:08:19,158 that you're proposing to be 1012 01:08:19,158 --> 01:08:21,538 merged by someone, you're asking for someone's 1013 01:08:21,538 --> 01:08:22,858 permission there, aren't you? 1014 01:08:24,058 --> 01:08:25,398 Well, I'm not because 1015 01:08:25,398 --> 01:08:27,398 I've not published it 1016 01:08:27,398 --> 01:08:28,058 to be merged. 1017 01:08:28,837 --> 01:08:30,398 I mean, 1018 01:08:30,398 --> 01:08:33,738 Yeah, that's what usually happens, yes. 1019 01:08:34,398 --> 01:08:34,678 Right. 1020 01:08:35,398 --> 01:08:41,858 And so what you're saying is you've put your NIP out, a custom NIP out. 1021 01:08:41,938 --> 01:08:46,778 You're not even going to look to get it merged into the main NIPs repo. 1022 01:08:47,418 --> 01:08:54,458 And if enough people attest to your NIP being a valid NIP for their use case, presumably, 1023 01:08:54,458 --> 01:09:02,398 and if other use cases that are looking for something like what you've built they trust these 1024 01:09:02,398 --> 01:09:10,698 at a stores then they accept it and so you can then extend that to any nip uh exactly that so 1025 01:09:10,698 --> 01:09:20,478 i think the the type kind the kind and number that alex did was uh 30817 which is this it's 1026 01:09:20,478 --> 01:09:25,938 It's called custom NIP or community NIP, but I just like to call it the NIP NIP because 1027 01:09:25,938 --> 01:09:29,878 custom or community I think downplays what it is. 1028 01:09:29,878 --> 01:09:30,878 It's just a NIP. 1029 01:09:30,878 --> 01:09:46,608 It just something that has been published as a NIP and it doesn require anyone to accept that It doesn require anyone to merge it All it does require really is people to use it 1030 01:09:48,188 --> 01:09:50,508 And that's all it really does require. 1031 01:09:50,808 --> 01:09:57,068 And that's where NOSTA started with people implementing things. 1032 01:09:58,788 --> 01:10:02,108 So that's a base level. 1033 01:10:02,108 --> 01:10:08,008 and then the second level to that is by using attestations themselves, 1034 01:10:09,048 --> 01:10:17,768 you can almost like in a pick-and-mix way define the nips that you believe NOSTA is to you. 1035 01:10:19,148 --> 01:10:26,728 And so my version of NOSTA might be 95% overlap with what your version of NOSTA is. 1036 01:10:27,268 --> 01:10:30,028 And of course, if we all had wildly different versions, 1037 01:10:30,028 --> 01:10:31,688 then nothing would work 1038 01:10:31,688 --> 01:10:33,388 because we'd all be on separate protocols. 1039 01:10:34,688 --> 01:10:36,728 But we've effectively got this, 1040 01:10:37,128 --> 01:10:40,408 you can think about it like a swarm moving forward 1041 01:10:40,408 --> 01:10:45,948 of different combinations of NIPs 1042 01:10:45,948 --> 01:10:50,588 and over time people will coalesce around 1043 01:10:50,588 --> 01:10:54,708 the ones that are most valuable to them and to others. 1044 01:10:55,348 --> 01:10:57,488 Well, there is a nice forcing function here 1045 01:10:57,488 --> 01:11:00,748 which is if you want to benefit from the interoperability 1046 01:11:00,748 --> 01:11:03,608 and the network effect that exists in other apps, 1047 01:11:03,688 --> 01:11:07,888 then you don't want to diverge too far from the existing NIP standard. 1048 01:11:08,888 --> 01:11:10,308 Yeah, exactly. 1049 01:11:10,448 --> 01:11:14,208 So you get ossification, I guess, in areas, 1050 01:11:14,208 --> 01:11:20,568 but you also get creativity and exploration in other areas. 1051 01:11:21,608 --> 01:11:25,488 And I think that's the key thing behind what Alex was doing with this, 1052 01:11:25,488 --> 01:11:28,188 which is linked back to all the soapbox stuff, 1053 01:11:28,388 --> 01:11:30,588 is people are creating new apps that need new nips, 1054 01:11:30,688 --> 01:11:32,608 and we need a way to do that 1055 01:11:32,608 --> 01:11:36,968 that doesn't involve six months of arguing in a nip repo, 1056 01:11:37,568 --> 01:11:40,208 which is currently what happens. 1057 01:11:42,548 --> 01:11:44,708 And so, yeah, we're just free to create now. 1058 01:11:45,788 --> 01:11:49,288 And through attestations, I think we're also free 1059 01:11:49,288 --> 01:11:55,388 to define the protocol from here, 1060 01:11:55,488 --> 01:12:02,148 looking backwards as well so I'd like to see each of the merged nips or even the draft nips 1061 01:12:02,148 --> 01:12:09,328 being published as as nip nips I think they should all be published we don't have to worry about nip 1062 01:12:09,328 --> 01:12:17,528 numbers anymore everyone's got its unique um n address because it's just a Nostal note itself 1063 01:12:17,528 --> 01:12:24,128 so maybe we need a nip zero which is um the nip nip 1064 01:12:24,128 --> 01:12:36,928 right and you said we need a nip zero just candidly uh who decides because i think we've 1065 01:12:36,928 --> 01:12:42,628 had this conversation before avi obviously there's a nip repo but is there a hierarchy there is there 1066 01:12:42,628 --> 01:12:46,408 Is there a council that says this is beneficial? 1067 01:12:46,568 --> 01:12:48,368 And then there's some general consensus? 1068 01:12:49,148 --> 01:12:50,668 How does it kind of work? 1069 01:12:50,988 --> 01:12:54,208 It sounds like you might have looked into this before. 1070 01:12:58,708 --> 01:13:00,208 Nathan, I think that one's for you. 1071 01:13:00,648 --> 01:13:01,228 No, it's fine. 1072 01:13:01,428 --> 01:13:02,288 Yeah, I'm sorry. 1073 01:13:03,388 --> 01:13:06,428 Well, I've not looked into it deeply, but there is a process. 1074 01:13:06,428 --> 01:13:11,468 There are a number of individuals that got merge rights on the repo. 1075 01:13:12,628 --> 01:13:17,588 So, you know, it's not dissimilar to Bitcoin in that sense and Bitcoin Core. 1076 01:13:19,848 --> 01:13:25,388 And so, yeah, we have a number of high priests, effectively, that have merge rights. 1077 01:13:27,268 --> 01:13:32,028 So I'm not saying that they're bad actors in any way. 1078 01:13:32,108 --> 01:13:32,708 Far from it. 1079 01:13:32,788 --> 01:13:38,528 There's lots of people I call friends and respect who are a part of that group of people. 1080 01:13:39,728 --> 01:13:41,888 But it doesn't have to be that way. 1081 01:13:41,888 --> 01:13:47,328 Maybe it had to be that way to start with getting some of the basics done, 1082 01:13:47,608 --> 01:13:54,648 but I think we can use Nostra itself now to define what Nostra is. 1083 01:13:55,868 --> 01:13:58,808 I think, yeah, well, you mentioned Soapbox. 1084 01:13:58,908 --> 01:14:01,528 People are going to start building these little mini apps, 1085 01:14:01,608 --> 01:14:03,928 and they'll want their own nips, and then they'll run. 1086 01:14:03,928 --> 01:14:11,788 I mean, these are maybe a little less experienced or hardened devs, I should say. 1087 01:14:11,888 --> 01:14:14,608 So there's going to be a little bit of friction, I would say. 1088 01:14:15,428 --> 01:14:17,348 You know, why isn't my NIP this? 1089 01:14:17,468 --> 01:14:18,468 Why isn't my NIP that? 1090 01:14:19,348 --> 01:14:23,968 You know, I can just kind of see how that might be a friction point moving forward. 1091 01:14:24,368 --> 01:14:25,428 But maybe I'm wrong. 1092 01:14:25,788 --> 01:14:29,568 Yeah, and I think, you know, the market will have to decide, really. 1093 01:14:30,788 --> 01:14:33,928 So bad NIPs will die and good NIPs will thrive. 1094 01:14:36,468 --> 01:14:38,808 This begs a bigger question than Nathan. 1095 01:14:39,508 --> 01:14:40,968 Can we do this with Bitcoin? 1096 01:14:41,888 --> 01:14:49,668 I'd love to. Imagine that. We need a BIP NIP. When BIP NIP? 1097 01:14:51,548 --> 01:14:51,968 Right. 1098 01:14:52,608 --> 01:15:02,428 I don't know. I mean, Bitcoin is defined by the software, whereas NOSTA is defined by the protocol specification. 1099 01:15:02,428 --> 01:15:05,908 whether it's in 1100 01:15:05,908 --> 01:15:08,028 GIT or whether it's in 1101 01:15:08,028 --> 01:15:10,888 as Nostra notes 1102 01:15:10,888 --> 01:15:14,508 Bitcoin is a bit different isn't it 1103 01:15:14,508 --> 01:15:16,528 because it doesn't really have that 1104 01:15:16,528 --> 01:15:18,848 it is the code, it is Bitcoin Core effectively 1105 01:15:18,848 --> 01:15:23,908 and although we do have the BIPs 1106 01:15:23,908 --> 01:15:26,448 there's also other configurations 1107 01:15:26,448 --> 01:15:28,788 that are made that define what Bitcoin is 1108 01:15:28,788 --> 01:15:30,688 that are outside of that too 1109 01:15:30,688 --> 01:15:34,248 So, I mean, I'd love it. 1110 01:15:34,328 --> 01:15:42,208 Wouldn't it be great if you could define what Bitcoin was to you by attesting to a subset of BIP nips? 1111 01:15:44,128 --> 01:15:52,328 And then you could have a client that, you know, was vibe coded based upon your view of Bitcoin. 1112 01:15:52,328 --> 01:15:55,768 and so we'd each have our own implementation 1113 01:15:55,768 --> 01:15:57,928 of our Bitcoin nodes 1114 01:15:57,928 --> 01:16:00,108 in accordance to those BIPs 1115 01:16:00,108 --> 01:16:03,568 that we deemed as being what Bitcoin was 1116 01:16:03,568 --> 01:16:05,928 I mean that'd be great in theory 1117 01:16:05,928 --> 01:16:09,608 but it'd probably lead to a couple of hard forks perhaps 1118 01:16:09,608 --> 01:16:12,988 Right, for sure, right? 1119 01:16:13,348 --> 01:16:13,768 Yeah 1120 01:16:13,768 --> 01:16:18,588 Too much freedom, you know 1121 01:16:18,588 --> 01:16:19,988 Too much freedom of choice 1122 01:16:19,988 --> 01:16:24,908 So, yeah, maybe let's put that in the maybe camp. 1123 01:16:25,288 --> 01:16:26,768 It's quite difficult, perhaps. 1124 01:16:28,708 --> 01:16:33,768 Like going out with the buddies on a Friday night, 1125 01:16:33,888 --> 01:16:37,568 and I feel like I maybe had a little too much freedom Saturday morning. 1126 01:16:37,988 --> 01:16:41,508 Well, I mean, even if you weren't implementing the client on that basis, 1127 01:16:42,108 --> 01:16:48,828 right now, if you want to signal what type of Bitcoin are you, 1128 01:16:48,828 --> 01:16:51,668 from the Civil War movie meme, 1129 01:16:52,508 --> 01:16:54,668 you only really have two choices. 1130 01:16:55,088 --> 01:16:57,648 You either say, I'm running core or I'm running knots. 1131 01:16:58,008 --> 01:17:02,048 They're your binary choice right now. 1132 01:17:03,388 --> 01:17:06,468 We could, through attestations and BitNip, 1133 01:17:06,548 --> 01:17:09,388 at least bring some nuance to that argument 1134 01:17:09,388 --> 01:17:11,928 to say, well, this is what I think Bitcoin is. 1135 01:17:12,568 --> 01:17:14,708 Now, it doesn't mean that that's exactly 1136 01:17:14,708 --> 01:17:17,848 the Bitcoin node I'm running, 1137 01:17:17,848 --> 01:17:28,248 but at least you can bring some nuance into what is quite a diverse, divisive discourse right now. 1138 01:17:29,508 --> 01:17:35,748 It's a bit like the two-party state in most regions of the world in terms of politics. 1139 01:17:36,648 --> 01:17:39,828 It'd be nice to not have a, you know, are you red or are you blue? 1140 01:17:42,888 --> 01:17:45,828 Yeah, we're seeing it in the mining pools now too, obviously, 1141 01:17:45,828 --> 01:17:53,588 Whether it's public pool, solo mining, BIDX, craze, or ocean now almost, I think, 1%. 1142 01:17:53,588 --> 01:17:56,048 I think they had like 22 blocks in the last week. 1143 01:17:56,388 --> 01:18:04,608 You're starting to see kind of people voting with their miners too, not just necessarily voting with their hash. 1144 01:18:05,468 --> 01:18:09,528 So it's cool to see kind of those votes, I call them. 1145 01:18:10,128 --> 01:18:13,128 You're voting your own faction, I suppose. 1146 01:18:13,128 --> 01:18:16,708 And, you know, more factions might not be a bad thing. 1147 01:18:17,388 --> 01:18:22,068 It's more about the customization and awareness of what's actually going on. 1148 01:18:22,188 --> 01:18:26,528 And you pick your decentralized team, I suppose. 1149 01:18:27,228 --> 01:18:32,248 Yeah, and I think, you know, if we were to have bit nips and attestations on those, 1150 01:18:32,348 --> 01:18:41,068 then we could just have, I think, a bit more sensible discussion around some of these more sensitive areas that we've had recently. 1151 01:18:41,068 --> 01:18:44,768 right and we get past this nonsense 1152 01:18:44,768 --> 01:18:48,508 stuff that happens on github and people fighting in the 1153 01:18:48,508 --> 01:18:52,188 comment section yeah and closing down commentary 1154 01:18:52,188 --> 01:18:56,448 and all that kind of stuff yeah because back to this 1155 01:18:56,448 --> 01:18:59,988 idea of you know first person 1156 01:18:59,988 --> 01:19:03,968 truth so you know people can 1157 01:19:03,968 --> 01:19:08,068 you don't need permission to attest valid or invalid 1158 01:19:08,068 --> 01:19:15,068 to a BIPNIP, which is a much better voting mechanism. 1159 01:19:16,168 --> 01:19:18,788 Now, of course, you'd get back into Web of Trust immediately on that 1160 01:19:18,788 --> 01:19:23,928 because that can be spammed and anyone can spin up a key pair. 1161 01:19:23,928 --> 01:19:27,108 But if you have proof of work in this area, 1162 01:19:27,568 --> 01:19:32,948 then your attestations will be weighted accordingly 1163 01:19:32,948 --> 01:19:35,548 by people viewing those. 1164 01:19:35,548 --> 01:19:50,328 what i i saw a post um or a note a few weeks ago from btc map uh you were moving away from the 1165 01:19:50,328 --> 01:19:57,188 google play store uh i believe it's google play store um something about the kyc uh the google 1166 01:19:57,188 --> 01:20:04,168 play option due to their excessive kyc requirements have they been ratcheting up or what's changed 1167 01:20:04,168 --> 01:20:05,848 Yeah, so they have been ratched in. 1168 01:20:06,348 --> 01:20:09,588 So BTC Map is not incorporated. 1169 01:20:10,248 --> 01:20:15,348 We're just a collection of individuals with some Git repos effectively. 1170 01:20:16,448 --> 01:20:18,908 And so when we publish to app stores, 1171 01:20:19,408 --> 01:20:22,528 it's normally the lead developer that does that 1172 01:20:22,528 --> 01:20:27,528 because there is no BTC Map account on the app stores. 1173 01:20:27,528 --> 01:20:30,648 so with Google 1174 01:20:30,648 --> 01:20:34,468 they increased the KYC requirements there 1175 01:20:34,468 --> 01:20:37,768 so they needed home address 1176 01:20:37,768 --> 01:20:40,328 and other information 1177 01:20:40,328 --> 01:20:44,328 and I think we got away with it for a while 1178 01:20:44,328 --> 01:20:47,548 I think we put Stalin's mausoleum 1179 01:20:47,548 --> 01:20:50,388 as our home address 1180 01:20:50,388 --> 01:20:52,448 and then 1181 01:20:52,448 --> 01:20:54,248 that's great 1182 01:20:54,248 --> 01:21:01,908 But they finally caught up with us and was requiring proof of address and things. 1183 01:21:02,228 --> 01:21:14,338 So the lead developer for Android said I not willing to do that Is anyone else in the team And we all said well no let make a stand really 1184 01:21:14,618 --> 01:21:19,558 And we had people after that tweet saying, you know, I'm already really doxxed. 1185 01:21:19,638 --> 01:21:24,458 Happy to put my name on it if you want to get back in the Play Store. 1186 01:21:25,818 --> 01:21:29,098 And we just said, no, this is a point of principle. 1187 01:21:29,898 --> 01:21:31,318 It shouldn't be required. 1188 01:21:31,318 --> 01:21:34,218 and therefore we're out. 1189 01:21:34,778 --> 01:21:39,178 So because there's other places you can get on Android anyway, 1190 01:21:39,318 --> 01:21:42,858 so you can either go to GitHub and download the APK direct 1191 01:21:42,858 --> 01:21:45,878 or we've got Zap Store, of course, on Noster, 1192 01:21:46,778 --> 01:21:52,418 where we actually sign the release ourselves using the BTC map NSEC. 1193 01:21:53,218 --> 01:21:55,778 So you actually have, you know, you're trusting us, 1194 01:21:56,098 --> 01:22:00,778 but we have signed that, whereas with Google, they sign it. 1195 01:22:00,778 --> 01:22:03,978 So they could put any APK out there and sign it, 1196 01:22:03,978 --> 01:22:05,738 and we wouldn't know. 1197 01:22:07,498 --> 01:22:08,958 So, yeah, it's time. 1198 01:22:09,238 --> 01:22:10,158 App stores need to die. 1199 01:22:14,538 --> 01:22:15,078 Yeah. 1200 01:22:16,218 --> 01:22:19,358 That was, yeah, well done on that, Nathan, 1201 01:22:19,658 --> 01:22:21,398 for standing on principle there. 1202 01:22:22,818 --> 01:22:26,258 So on the map itself, 1203 01:22:26,578 --> 01:22:28,698 the last time I think we chatted, 1204 01:22:28,698 --> 01:22:31,738 Madeira was the front runner for growth. 1205 01:22:32,418 --> 01:22:35,158 Have you seen any new contenders, 1206 01:22:35,378 --> 01:22:37,838 any new geographies that have popped up? 1207 01:22:40,078 --> 01:22:44,958 So on, yeah, I'm just looking at the dashboard at the moment. 1208 01:22:46,098 --> 01:22:47,958 So Madeira is still third place. 1209 01:22:50,698 --> 01:22:52,318 So yeah, still great. 1210 01:22:52,478 --> 01:22:55,658 Vancouver's come up really strong recently. 1211 01:22:55,658 --> 01:22:59,038 So they're up to 188 merchants there. 1212 01:22:59,458 --> 01:23:02,718 So a lot of work there done by the strong community 1213 01:23:02,718 --> 01:23:05,118 and also Coinos that operate out of Vancouver. 1214 01:23:07,078 --> 01:23:08,458 So they're doing really well. 1215 01:23:08,738 --> 01:23:11,658 I mean, maybe a year or so ago, 1216 01:23:11,778 --> 01:23:14,118 there might have been 20 locations. 1217 01:23:14,658 --> 01:23:19,898 So they've done really well and have everything up to date. 1218 01:23:20,118 --> 01:23:24,858 So their average age of verification in Vancouver is 138 days. 1219 01:23:25,658 --> 01:23:30,658 So that's pretty clean. 1220 01:23:30,658 --> 01:23:40,658 And then the Brazilian one, so Bitcoin EA Key is still number one with 217 locations there. 1221 01:23:40,658 --> 01:23:46,658 We've seen Dominican Republic, so there's Bitcoin Dominica. 1222 01:23:46,658 --> 01:23:54,658 They've got up to 100 recently with an average verification age there of just 72 days. 1223 01:23:54,658 --> 01:23:56,518 so doing really well 1224 01:23:56,518 --> 01:23:59,058 and then a couple of 1225 01:23:59,058 --> 01:24:01,118 those communities down in 1226 01:24:01,118 --> 01:24:02,658 South Africa so Bitcoin 1227 01:24:02,658 --> 01:24:04,838 up to 92 now 1228 01:24:04,838 --> 01:24:08,138 so yeah we're seeing 1229 01:24:08,138 --> 01:24:10,818 it used to be two or three 1230 01:24:10,818 --> 01:24:12,338 communities dominating 1231 01:24:12,338 --> 01:24:14,878 and they kind of switch places 1232 01:24:14,878 --> 01:24:15,438 occasionally 1233 01:24:15,438 --> 01:24:19,118 but now if you look at the top 10 1234 01:24:19,118 --> 01:24:22,838 there's a great spread between those now 1235 01:24:22,838 --> 01:24:25,458 so I think we're getting a lot more 1236 01:24:25,458 --> 01:24:26,298 breadth and depth 1237 01:24:26,298 --> 01:24:30,578 I'd love to see that 1238 01:24:30,578 --> 01:24:35,198 QW is working on Phoenix 1239 01:24:35,198 --> 01:24:37,798 when Phoenix 1240 01:24:37,798 --> 01:24:41,798 I think I'm just giving it my wife 1241 01:24:41,798 --> 01:24:45,538 might actually be a lighthouse 1242 01:24:45,538 --> 01:24:46,658 there locally 1243 01:24:46,658 --> 01:24:48,878 at the very least we need a Phoenix community 1244 01:24:48,878 --> 01:24:52,078 and it's okay for there to be zero merchants in there 1245 01:24:52,078 --> 01:24:54,938 so yeah what we got we've got 1246 01:24:54,938 --> 01:24:57,138 555 1247 01:24:57,138 --> 01:24:57,998 communities 1248 01:24:57,998 --> 01:25:00,258 at the moment 1249 01:25:00,258 --> 01:25:01,298 globally 1250 01:25:01,298 --> 01:25:04,538 so we need 1251 01:25:04,538 --> 01:25:06,278 when Phoenix community 1252 01:25:06,278 --> 01:25:10,698 that's definitely my call to action 1253 01:25:10,698 --> 01:25:12,898 for sure so challenge 1254 01:25:12,898 --> 01:25:15,078 accepted okay we'll fill out the form 1255 01:25:15,078 --> 01:25:15,998 we'll get you ready man 1256 01:25:15,998 --> 01:25:19,018 so Nathan what's 1257 01:25:19,018 --> 01:25:19,558 next man 1258 01:25:19,558 --> 01:25:23,238 a lot of 1259 01:25:23,238 --> 01:25:23,998 vibe coding 1260 01:25:23,998 --> 01:25:26,198 we've got a lot of stuff to build 1261 01:25:26,198 --> 01:25:29,178 so there's the Nostra native 1262 01:25:29,178 --> 01:25:30,378 BTC map 1263 01:25:30,378 --> 01:25:33,078 so a few of us started working 1264 01:25:33,078 --> 01:25:33,578 on that 1265 01:25:33,578 --> 01:25:37,138 then there's the 1266 01:25:37,138 --> 01:25:38,118 attestation 1267 01:25:38,118 --> 01:25:41,278 work so I'm building 1268 01:25:41,278 --> 01:25:43,238 attester.xyz 1269 01:25:43,898 --> 01:25:46,918 which will be an attestation 1270 01:25:46,918 --> 01:25:47,478 marketplace 1271 01:25:47,478 --> 01:25:52,778 where people can request attestations 1272 01:25:52,778 --> 01:25:56,378 and view attestations of various different types. 1273 01:25:58,318 --> 01:26:03,058 So if you've got a specialism in a particular kind, 1274 01:26:03,618 --> 01:26:08,078 then you can list yourself as being a tester 1275 01:26:08,078 --> 01:26:12,218 with that particular experience or expertise. 1276 01:26:13,738 --> 01:26:17,458 So just to start to surface some of these attestation-related events, 1277 01:26:17,478 --> 01:26:21,718 because obviously they're not baked into the main clients yet. 1278 01:26:23,698 --> 01:26:24,678 Wait, Nathan. 1279 01:26:25,178 --> 01:26:27,138 Sorry, that just brings up a thought. 1280 01:26:27,138 --> 01:26:28,818 Who attests the attestors? 1281 01:26:30,818 --> 01:26:33,718 Well, it's attestations all the way down. 1282 01:26:34,358 --> 01:26:34,758 Yes. 1283 01:26:37,518 --> 01:26:42,278 So, yeah, we have an attestation event. 1284 01:26:43,398 --> 01:26:46,338 The Noster High Priest attests the attestors. 1285 01:26:46,338 --> 01:26:48,378 Yeah, we have to go back to Git for that. 1286 01:26:50,158 --> 01:26:52,858 No, so we have the attestation events as well, 1287 01:26:52,958 --> 01:26:57,878 but in addition to that, we've got attestation requests 1288 01:26:57,878 --> 01:27:00,478 and attestor recommendations, 1289 01:27:01,698 --> 01:27:05,898 and we have attestor proficiency declarations. 1290 01:27:05,898 --> 01:27:07,958 So as attestor, you can say, 1291 01:27:08,158 --> 01:27:11,658 here are the things I'm good at on a per-kind basis. 1292 01:27:12,658 --> 01:27:15,458 But yeah, it's self-referential, 1293 01:27:15,458 --> 01:27:20,418 so other people can attest that a given attestor 1294 01:27:20,418 --> 01:27:24,018 is proficient or not in the things that they say. 1295 01:27:25,878 --> 01:27:27,938 So, yeah, it's crazy. 1296 01:27:28,158 --> 01:27:30,518 Once you start to... 1297 01:27:30,518 --> 01:27:32,418 I just see NOSRA as a huge Lego set, 1298 01:27:32,758 --> 01:27:36,238 and I think attestations really just unlock 1299 01:27:36,238 --> 01:27:38,038 a lot of that building capability 1300 01:27:38,038 --> 01:27:41,338 so you can start to use different kinds 1301 01:27:41,338 --> 01:27:42,338 in relation to each other. 1302 01:27:42,338 --> 01:27:47,498 and Nathan I think you might have given us our show title as well 1303 01:27:47,498 --> 01:27:49,238 attestations all the way down 1304 01:27:49,238 --> 01:27:52,718 there we go 1305 01:27:52,718 --> 01:27:57,838 yeah so the core attestation event is 1306 01:27:57,838 --> 01:28:03,178 actually it's of type 31871 1307 01:28:03,178 --> 01:28:06,278 and 1871 is the 1308 01:28:06,278 --> 01:28:09,218 bit 39 word for truth so there's a little bit 1309 01:28:09,218 --> 01:28:12,578 So a little bit of a nod to truthfulness there. 1310 01:28:13,358 --> 01:28:13,798 Love it. 1311 01:28:13,798 --> 01:28:20,038 But we shy away from using true or false in the actual nip. 1312 01:28:20,758 --> 01:28:21,998 It's a bit too emotive. 1313 01:28:22,338 --> 01:28:26,618 So we use valid or invalid, which is a little less emotive. 1314 01:28:29,078 --> 01:28:33,378 But there's a truthy link in the type, in the kind type. 1315 01:28:35,818 --> 01:28:36,678 That's great. 1316 01:28:36,678 --> 01:28:39,378 any call to action 1317 01:28:39,378 --> 01:28:41,218 Nathan for plebs listening 1318 01:28:41,218 --> 01:28:47,578 go and maintain your local 1319 01:28:47,578 --> 01:28:48,938 data on BTC map 1320 01:28:48,938 --> 01:28:51,298 you can go to our website 1321 01:28:51,298 --> 01:28:53,038 and you can find out how to do that 1322 01:28:53,038 --> 01:28:55,578 and we've got a friendly group of 1323 01:28:55,578 --> 01:28:57,798 shadowy super taggers that can show you the ropes 1324 01:28:57,798 --> 01:28:59,638 it's really 1325 01:28:59,638 --> 01:29:01,318 therapeutic, it's quite mindful 1326 01:29:01,318 --> 01:29:03,718 and you're doing a good thing 1327 01:29:03,718 --> 01:29:05,138 for your local community so 1328 01:29:05,138 --> 01:29:07,598 get onto that please 1329 01:29:07,598 --> 01:29:11,038 and then just if I may 1330 01:29:11,038 --> 01:29:13,278 just a quick shill at the end 1331 01:29:13,278 --> 01:29:15,098 I run the 1332 01:29:15,098 --> 01:29:17,438 Manchester meetup in the UK here 1333 01:29:17,438 --> 01:29:19,338 and 1334 01:29:19,338 --> 01:29:21,038 come November 1335 01:29:21,038 --> 01:29:23,738 21st through 23rd 1336 01:29:23,738 --> 01:29:25,778 we'll be running 1337 01:29:25,778 --> 01:29:26,938 BitFest 1338 01:29:26,938 --> 01:29:29,218 Manchester which will 1339 01:29:29,218 --> 01:29:31,018 hopefully become an annual Bitcoin 1340 01:29:31,018 --> 01:29:31,618 conference 1341 01:29:31,618 --> 01:29:34,998 and the first day of which 1342 01:29:34,998 --> 01:29:36,558 is Nostra Shire 1343 01:29:36,558 --> 01:29:39,098 so on November 21st we're going to run 1344 01:29:39,098 --> 01:29:41,278 a full day Nostra event 1345 01:29:41,278 --> 01:29:43,258 and we've already got people 1346 01:29:43,258 --> 01:29:45,278 like Marty Marmi 1347 01:29:45,278 --> 01:29:47,078 Ben Aarck, Oscar Mary 1348 01:29:47,078 --> 01:29:48,678 Derek Ross 1349 01:29:48,678 --> 01:29:51,498 Short Fiat 1350 01:29:51,498 --> 01:29:53,138 who does the 1351 01:29:53,138 --> 01:29:56,098 podcast stuff 1352 01:29:56,098 --> 01:29:57,318 Fanfair 1353 01:29:57,318 --> 01:30:01,298 and Avi's threatening to come as well 1354 01:30:01,298 --> 01:30:02,378 so we'll see about that 1355 01:30:02,378 --> 01:30:04,778 so yeah if you want to check that out 1356 01:30:04,778 --> 01:30:07,398 it's bitfest.uk is the website 1357 01:30:07,398 --> 01:30:08,858 tickets are available now 1358 01:30:08,858 --> 01:30:11,178 this is pleb funded 1359 01:30:11,178 --> 01:30:12,158 not for profit 1360 01:30:12,158 --> 01:30:15,598 no sponsors so yeah come support us 1361 01:30:15,598 --> 01:30:17,498 Nostasher 1362 01:30:17,498 --> 01:30:19,678 Avi do you even have time to go there? 1363 01:30:20,318 --> 01:30:21,538 do you have spare time to go there? 1364 01:30:21,698 --> 01:30:24,158 apparently time is all I have 1365 01:30:24,158 --> 01:30:26,138 when I was working 1366 01:30:26,138 --> 01:30:27,978 when I was in my fiat job 1367 01:30:27,978 --> 01:30:30,258 I had money but I didn't have the time 1368 01:30:30,258 --> 01:30:31,958 and now I have the time 1369 01:30:31,958 --> 01:30:34,318 so we'll see what happens 1370 01:30:34,318 --> 01:30:34,758 with the money. 1371 01:30:37,238 --> 01:30:38,398 Well, all time eyes now, 1372 01:30:38,458 --> 01:30:39,418 have you? We're good. 1373 01:30:40,458 --> 01:30:41,038 That is true. 1374 01:30:43,838 --> 01:30:44,278 Hi! 1375 01:30:44,978 --> 01:30:46,318 And we have a 1376 01:30:46,318 --> 01:30:47,798 new guest for the end of the show. 1377 01:30:49,078 --> 01:30:50,278 Yeah, yeah, a little 1378 01:30:50,278 --> 01:30:52,178 man broke through, so 1379 01:30:52,178 --> 01:30:54,118 he's sitting on my lap, listening 1380 01:30:54,118 --> 01:30:55,398 with the earpiece in. 1381 01:30:57,218 --> 01:30:58,398 You know what? 1382 01:30:58,438 --> 01:31:00,338 The show's for him. We're building 1383 01:31:00,338 --> 01:31:01,818 his tomorrow, and that's 1384 01:31:01,818 --> 01:31:04,198 the most important part of our mission. 1385 01:31:04,318 --> 01:31:05,738 indeed 1386 01:31:05,738 --> 01:31:08,178 well Nathan 1387 01:31:08,178 --> 01:31:10,678 appreciate you taking the time 1388 01:31:10,678 --> 01:31:12,718 coming back to the show 1389 01:31:12,718 --> 01:31:14,798 and talking about 1390 01:31:14,798 --> 01:31:16,018 all the exciting things 1391 01:31:16,018 --> 01:31:18,698 that you're working on 1392 01:31:18,698 --> 01:31:19,458 QWD 1393 01:31:19,458 --> 01:31:21,638 much more high level 1394 01:31:21,638 --> 01:31:23,078 much more high level 1395 01:31:23,078 --> 01:31:25,118 we got into the 1396 01:31:25,118 --> 01:31:27,258 attestations and all the 1397 01:31:27,258 --> 01:31:29,098 details of the nips 1398 01:31:29,098 --> 01:31:31,438 it's much different than our first show 1399 01:31:31,438 --> 01:31:33,658 so I'm going to have to listen back 1400 01:31:33,658 --> 01:31:35,538 and kind of take some notes on this one 1401 01:31:35,538 --> 01:31:37,818 because it's some big ideas, right? 1402 01:31:37,818 --> 01:31:38,918 It's been a ride, that's for sure. 1403 01:31:42,618 --> 01:31:45,158 Well, thank you once again for coming on. 1404 01:31:45,638 --> 01:31:46,898 Avi, if there's nothing else? 1405 01:31:47,138 --> 01:31:49,718 No, nothing else other than to say 1406 01:31:49,718 --> 01:31:53,878 I'm glad to have yet another ally 1407 01:31:53,878 --> 01:31:56,258 in the world of unemployment. 1408 01:31:56,598 --> 01:31:57,698 Oh, sorry, I didn't mean that. 1409 01:31:57,698 --> 01:32:00,118 I meant Bitcoin and Nostra building. 1410 01:32:00,118 --> 01:32:07,958 yeah it was nice to be in the trenches homelessness obvi you need to get a van down by the river 1411 01:32:07,958 --> 01:32:16,918 well thank you everyone for tuning in to pleb chain radio if you appreciate us as much as we 1412 01:32:16,918 --> 01:32:22,058 appreciate you listen on the fountain app and consider hitting the subscribe button 1413 01:32:22,058 --> 01:32:26,558 until next week gentle plebs good goodbye 1414 01:32:30,118 --> 01:32:32,818 Thank you.