1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,440 That's it, hot summer. That's it, open. 2 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:22,320 The signal is here. This is Bloodshed Radio. 3 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:38,360 Welcome, gentle pioneers, to the lightning-laced airwaves. 4 00:00:38,580 --> 00:00:48,000 Today is Friday the 27th of March, and it is 12.10pm on the east coast of the United States at the time of recording. 5 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:56,060 This is episode 157 of Pleb Chain Radio, and we have a fun one in store for you today. 6 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:04,260 Kent Halliburton, CEO of Saz Mining, joins me, and I'm looking forward to that conversation. 7 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:15,140 If you are hearing my voice right now on Spotify or Apple, thank you for listening, but also, welcome to the Legacy Feed. 8 00:01:15,700 --> 00:01:18,900 It's a reliable signal, but it's read-only. 9 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,400 Over here on Fountain and Noster, the frequency is open. 10 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,660 This is a Valley for Value broadcast. 11 00:01:27,460 --> 00:01:31,260 There are no corporate scripts and no algorithmic nudges here 12 00:01:31,260 --> 00:01:36,840 because the producers of the show, that's you, fuel the engine. 13 00:01:37,340 --> 00:01:41,160 If you want to move from passive listener to active participant, 14 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,040 come join the signal on the V4V side. 15 00:01:45,780 --> 00:01:48,800 Now, let's set the table for the final word. 16 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:52,520 We have an executive producer for this episode. 17 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,600 as you will hear later in the show, 18 00:01:55,060 --> 00:01:59,420 but the EP chair for next week is currently empty. 19 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,140 As always, the top booster secures the title 20 00:02:03,140 --> 00:02:05,820 and the right to close out the show. 21 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:08,080 The rules of the board are simple. 22 00:02:08,700 --> 00:02:11,440 Ratify or rectify. 23 00:02:11,940 --> 00:02:14,680 In a few minutes, I'm going to lay out the sermon. 24 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,200 If the message resonates, boost in to ratify it. 25 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,760 Add your context and back it up. 26 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:27,480 If I miss the mark, boost in to rectify it and set the record straight. 27 00:02:28,060 --> 00:02:32,100 The board is in session and the top supporter gets the mic. 28 00:02:32,740 --> 00:02:33,840 Let's get into it. 29 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,960 Our sermon today is The Forgotten Forge. 30 00:02:38,340 --> 00:02:45,240 We became a civilization of consumers so gradually that we mistook the slide for progress. 31 00:02:45,940 --> 00:02:50,100 Our grandparents grew the grain that became the bread on their table. 32 00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:53,860 They knew the animal by name before it became the meal 33 00:02:53,860 --> 00:02:59,140 They understood the sky because their harvest depended on reading it correctly 34 00:02:59,140 --> 00:03:05,280 The distance between effort and sustenance was measured in footsteps and calluses 35 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,660 We traded all of that for convenience 36 00:03:08,660 --> 00:03:12,600 We outsourced our food to supply chains we cannot trace 37 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,460 Our shelter to developers 38 00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:19,800 We'll never meet our health to institutions that profit from our confusion 39 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,520 Each transaction felt like an upgrade. 40 00:03:23,020 --> 00:03:24,940 Each delegation felt like freedom. 41 00:03:25,620 --> 00:03:28,840 And somewhere in the accumulation of all that comfort, 42 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,020 we forgot how to make the things that keep us alive. 43 00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:35,840 And we did the same thing with our money. 44 00:03:36,700 --> 00:03:38,820 In the earliest days of this network, 45 00:03:39,260 --> 00:03:41,480 acquiring Bitcoin meant producing it. 46 00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:44,920 You ran the software, you contributed energy, 47 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:46,680 and you received sets. 48 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:51,860 The act of participation and the act of acquisition were the same gesture. 49 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:58,300 Then it got easier to buy and harder to produce, and the community split in two. 50 00:03:59,060 --> 00:04:03,300 The purchasers went one direction, the producers went another, 51 00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:08,700 and slowly, almost imperceptibly, we handed the furnace to strangers 52 00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:13,400 and wondered why the fires started burning in colors we didn't recognize. 53 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:19,360 There is a particular dignity in making the thing you depend on. 54 00:04:19,860 --> 00:04:25,460 A farmer who eats what he grows carries a different posture than the one who orders from a screen. 55 00:04:26,140 --> 00:04:34,040 A community that produces its own money holds a different kind of sovereignty than one that merely accumulates it. 56 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:42,740 Today, I want to explore what we lost when we stopped forging and what it might look like to reclaim the anvil. 57 00:04:42,740 --> 00:04:47,620 And I'm joined by a man who might just have the map to get us there. 58 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,620 Kent Halliburton, welcome to Plep Chain Radio. 59 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:59,000 It's an honor to be here, and I really appreciate that monologue. 60 00:04:59,220 --> 00:05:02,200 It's drafted off of, or the sermon, excuse me, 61 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:08,040 it's really drafted off of a message that I've been honing and crafting for several years now. 62 00:05:08,740 --> 00:05:10,760 Yes, and that was very intentional. 63 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:32,320 Very intentional, Kent. I have been listening to that message and it absolutely resonated. So for folks wondering, yes, I wrote the sermon, but a lot of the ideas about the fracture, this dichotomy, early dichotomy that happened in Bitcoin is from Kent's thinking on the topic. 64 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:39,880 So Kent, you know, you did tell me before we started recording that you do have an NSEC and you are on NOSTA. 65 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:47,860 But, you know, since most of this episode's audience are NOSTA people, they might not be familiar with you. 66 00:05:48,020 --> 00:05:53,980 Just because, you know, you are a busy man, you're a CEO of a large company, of a large mining company. 67 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,240 So you don't spend that much time on NOSTA. 68 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:03,900 perhaps you can give them a little bit of a background on you know what your story is and 69 00:06:03,900 --> 00:06:13,200 how you ended up with ended up starting SAS mining yeah I'd love to so I came from the 70 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:19,920 energy sector before getting into mining so worked for about a decade in solar actually 71 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:26,000 is where I got my start and so I'm about 15 years in the energy sector now but took a break 72 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,340 did a bit of a walkabout, suffered from a bit of burnout. 73 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:37,140 And during that break, I discovered Bitcoin and having plenty of time and a background 74 00:06:37,140 --> 00:06:45,400 as a computer engineer in networking and energy and having traveled extensively 75 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,780 and dealt with the difficulties of acquiring money on the road. 76 00:06:50,060 --> 00:06:54,220 I just instantly glommed on to the value proposition of Bitcoin. 77 00:06:54,220 --> 00:06:57,240 And this was, you know, circa late 2015. 78 00:06:58,820 --> 00:07:03,080 And, you know, the mine fires just set in and I got obsessed about it. 79 00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:05,940 So I wound up restarting my life. 80 00:07:06,020 --> 00:07:08,660 I'm a U.S. citizen, you know, from the West Coast originally. 81 00:07:09,340 --> 00:07:12,580 But on that walkabout, I also fell in love with a Portuguese woman. 82 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:23,200 So my life restarted in 2016 in Portugal and started an entrepreneurial journey that took me a few years to find my place in the mining side of things. 83 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,720 thanks to Jeff Booth's price at Tomorrow. 84 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,900 And, you know, the mission at SAS Mining 85 00:07:30,900 --> 00:07:35,380 is to make sat-based acquisition through mining 86 00:07:35,380 --> 00:07:36,800 accessible to the masses. 87 00:07:37,460 --> 00:07:39,480 So that's how I got to where I am. 88 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,220 But basically I've been living on a Bitcoin standard 89 00:07:43,220 --> 00:07:48,100 since then, you know, convert what I need into fiat. 90 00:07:48,100 --> 00:08:06,380 And, you know, the approach that we're taking at SaaS Mining is on the Bitcoin side of the event horizon, because mining is a zero to win innovation in the same way that the blockchain being a decentralized ledger is a zero to one innovation. 91 00:08:06,380 --> 00:08:15,800 And, you know, I think of it as the mining side is the hashpunk side of things, while the decentralized ledger is the cypherpunk side of things. 92 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:26,360 But, you know, as long as you've got electricity, hardware, and an internet connection, or the right hardware, I should say, you can generate your own sats and have a decentralized money printer working for you. 93 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:34,820 So there are quite a few things you said there, and I want to dig into all of them. 94 00:08:34,820 --> 00:08:37,020 start with your 95 00:08:37,020 --> 00:08:38,840 what 15 years in the solar 96 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,060 industry when was 97 00:08:41,060 --> 00:08:41,660 this do you 98 00:08:41,660 --> 00:08:44,280 do you know do you remember 99 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,620 yes I do remember 100 00:08:48,620 --> 00:08:50,560 those years so I 101 00:08:50,560 --> 00:08:52,420 worked this was roughly 102 00:08:52,420 --> 00:08:54,220 2005 103 00:08:54,220 --> 00:08:58,700 is when I got the industry in 2015 104 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:00,780 is when I left and had a couple years 105 00:09:00,780 --> 00:09:02,780 off and then you know about 106 00:09:02,780 --> 00:09:04,620 five years in the mining side now so that's the 107 00:09:04,620 --> 00:09:12,820 the 15 years come from. But yeah, I worked across nine different states in the US. My last role 108 00:09:12,820 --> 00:09:19,620 was running sales software and we were acquiring companies and I was responsible for integrating 109 00:09:19,620 --> 00:09:26,100 them into the greater company after we'd acquire them. So, you know, had a lot of responsibility, 110 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:32,080 nine figure revenue targets and came with a lot of pressure working with the board. 111 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:38,280 and yeah I just suffered some burnout there towards the end with all the responsibility and 112 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:43,760 decided when they brought the board brought in a new CEO you know I didn't really like the cut of 113 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:49,280 the guy's jib and decided it's a good time to go fulfill another lifelong dream and go for a walk 114 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:55,280 about and see the planet so that's that's how that went about but I learned a ton about the energy 115 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,340 industry through that experience. 116 00:09:58,540 --> 00:10:01,140 And the odd thing about solar is it's actually, 117 00:10:01,140 --> 00:10:05,900 I think the only industry that's analogous to Bitcoin mining, 118 00:10:06,260 --> 00:10:09,720 because when you solar is emergent, 119 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,480 decentralized, 120 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:13,760 disruptive, 121 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,380 your profits are constrained by an energy network. 122 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,420 Your primary good is being brought in from China. 123 00:10:21,300 --> 00:10:25,240 So the parallels made it quite easy to understand that. 124 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,000 industry when I jumped into it. 125 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:34,060 You know, the reason I asked at the time was I was tangentially involved with the solar 126 00:10:34,060 --> 00:10:40,800 industry more from the finance side, the securitization side, around the 2010-2011 127 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:46,060 period when I was out on the East Coast. 128 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:53,800 The New Jersey renewable energy, solar renewable energy credit market, the SRECs, were going 129 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,620 through quite a bit of a bubble phase. 130 00:10:55,700 --> 00:10:57,920 I don't know if you remember that time 131 00:10:57,920 --> 00:10:59,520 or if you're familiar with that. 132 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,340 I was actually, 133 00:11:02,500 --> 00:11:04,560 that was my first role in the solar industry 134 00:11:04,560 --> 00:11:06,720 was living on the Jersey Shore 135 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,820 and selling solar around the state. 136 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,940 NASRX were a big part of that value proposition. 137 00:11:12,420 --> 00:11:15,660 So I can't say that I have a lot of love 138 00:11:15,660 --> 00:11:19,440 for RECs in general after that experience. 139 00:11:20,300 --> 00:11:22,760 It's a funny little incentive scheme. 140 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,240 I don't think it works the way people intended either. 141 00:11:26,140 --> 00:11:30,760 No, and I was a lot younger, not a Bitcoin at that time. 142 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,700 So I was just doing whatever my boss told me. 143 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,360 And I was a quant, and I was like, hey, I can write some cool equations and do some cool stuff. 144 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:49,580 And the idea was we would package this massive bubble of SRECs in New Jersey into a vehicle and then tranche it and securitize it and sell those. 145 00:11:49,580 --> 00:11:53,040 I mean, it fell apart because, I mean, it's a borderline Ponzi scheme. 146 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:54,260 Yeah. 147 00:11:55,120 --> 00:12:01,280 So if not a full-blown Ponzi scheme, thankfully, it never saw the light of day. 148 00:12:02,020 --> 00:12:04,220 But it was an interesting time in solar. 149 00:12:04,340 --> 00:12:10,420 And in general, right, I did get to read, even though I was on the wrong side of solar, on the finance side, 150 00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:14,140 where probably if you want to get into solar, don't do that. 151 00:12:14,140 --> 00:12:23,280 is there is a seductive allure to the idea of solar energy. 152 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:24,760 Look, as you said, decentralized. 153 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:29,680 It's also, in theory, completely sovereign energy source, right? 154 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,940 Once you have the panels, and let's say you actually own them, 155 00:12:35,340 --> 00:12:38,760 and you're basically generating your own energy, 156 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:40,340 harnessing the power of the sun. 157 00:12:40,340 --> 00:12:44,560 and that's kind of cool 158 00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:47,960 if you can actually do it in that clean, sovereign way 159 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,740 but I think what we see is there's like 160 00:12:50,740 --> 00:12:52,100 seven or eight intermediaries 161 00:12:52,100 --> 00:12:53,420 I don't know the number 162 00:12:53,420 --> 00:12:56,960 but typically fiat number of intermediaries 163 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,400 between you, the panel 164 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,320 and then the energy that you actually are using 165 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:07,500 Why has that not become more of a thing though? 166 00:13:07,580 --> 00:13:09,620 The true energy sovereignty with solar? 167 00:13:10,340 --> 00:13:16,480 I actually think it is now, thanks to the declining costs of batteries. 168 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:24,600 But, you know, when it comes to solar, that is the through line, the sovereignty between the two careers for me. 169 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:32,100 You know, I got involved with rooftop solar in Northern California primarily, which is where it started. 170 00:13:32,100 --> 00:13:36,980 Right. Most people don't know that like the company I worked for is called Real Good Solar. 171 00:13:36,980 --> 00:13:44,300 no longer exists but 1979 my my former boss at that company he sold the first 172 00:13:44,300 --> 00:14:01,636 rooftop solar panel and the people that were paying the exorbitant prices for solar were the pop rowers basically because they were trying to they need a lot of electricity and they needed to be off grid And this was like the only thing 173 00:14:01,636 --> 00:14:05,456 they could buy. And they had loads of cash to buy it with. So most people don't know that 174 00:14:05,456 --> 00:14:12,516 sordid history, but that's where things started to scale. And if you go back to the early days of 175 00:14:12,516 --> 00:14:18,716 solar, it was primarily driven by sovereignty, people wanting to be off the grid. And they were 176 00:14:18,716 --> 00:14:23,816 doing that with lead acid batteries. And it was expensive and it was a bit clunky. But 177 00:14:23,816 --> 00:14:29,836 fast forward to today. And, you know, when you look at the low cost of batteries, 178 00:14:30,236 --> 00:14:35,436 I actually see in parts of like I saw friends in the industry, but in parts of California and 179 00:14:35,436 --> 00:14:41,716 Colorado, people are actually looks like starting to fray off the grid where, hey, I'll just be 180 00:14:41,716 --> 00:14:46,436 totally sovereign. I've got an electric vehicle with batteries. I've got, you know, a battery bank 181 00:14:46,436 --> 00:14:51,676 at my house and I've got the smarts with the control system now to control the flows of 182 00:14:51,676 --> 00:14:57,536 electricity from my solar panels on the roof. And, you know, for me, I think there's solar still 183 00:14:57,536 --> 00:15:02,596 makes a ton of sense. Like most people don't know that the very first solar panel, solar cell, 184 00:15:02,596 --> 00:15:08,596 excuse me, from the fifties will still produce electricity today. And it's the only way we know 185 00:15:08,596 --> 00:15:15,896 how to make electricity without moving anything. So I still find it a very fascinating source of 186 00:15:15,896 --> 00:15:22,636 electricity, but I find the politicization of it and the tribalism around it a bit dismaying, 187 00:15:22,696 --> 00:15:27,436 even within our industry, because for me, as an engineer, it's all just about the right 188 00:15:27,436 --> 00:15:35,516 application. So am I a big fan of taking up five acres per megawatt for solar, which is the last 189 00:15:35,516 --> 00:15:41,576 time I looked at the ratio, how much space you need per megawatt with solar. Not really, but, 190 00:15:41,696 --> 00:15:47,496 you know, if you've got a rooftop, why not, you know, use that real estate to generate your own 191 00:15:47,496 --> 00:15:53,936 power, right? So it's still very application specific to me, but I do think the financialization 192 00:15:53,936 --> 00:15:59,296 side of things and the big industrial scale solar plants and how they impact the grid, 193 00:15:59,756 --> 00:16:04,016 you know, that to me is a different scale and scope and doesn't quite make as much sense, 194 00:16:04,016 --> 00:16:08,576 especially when you get into all the incentives but you know energy in general is just fraught 195 00:16:08,576 --> 00:16:15,036 with incentives and i've always thought you know just being more libertarian minded generally that 196 00:16:15,036 --> 00:16:19,476 the right thing to do is just remove all the incentives from all the energy sources and let 197 00:16:19,476 --> 00:16:23,816 them compete because then the market would just figure out the right applications for the right 198 00:16:23,816 --> 00:16:31,116 the right energy uh generation applications for the right situations um instead of you know 199 00:16:31,116 --> 00:16:36,656 force fit in certain things by malinvestment and permuting, 200 00:16:37,556 --> 00:16:39,976 I'm not using the right word there, but, you know, 201 00:16:41,496 --> 00:16:43,736 like what happened with the SRECs, right? 202 00:16:44,316 --> 00:16:49,076 They really sort of created an odd bubble situation in New Jersey 203 00:16:49,076 --> 00:16:52,216 and caused, I don't know if they caused more pain than gain, 204 00:16:52,216 --> 00:16:56,556 but I know there's still a lot of solar left in New Jersey as a result of it. 205 00:16:56,556 --> 00:17:06,616 Yeah, I mean, so the SREX came from the whole clean energy, renewable energy sort of push, right? 206 00:17:06,996 --> 00:17:11,776 Which absolutely messed up the incentives more than anything else in this industry. 207 00:17:12,336 --> 00:17:18,676 It's one thing having rooftop solar, which I think, or a small patch of land on your own property, right? 208 00:17:18,736 --> 00:17:22,116 That's making you energy self-sufficient, right? 209 00:17:22,116 --> 00:17:22,816 That's one thing. 210 00:17:22,816 --> 00:17:24,836 It's another thing when you have these giant projects. 211 00:17:24,836 --> 00:17:38,456 So I'll give an example, Kent. I live in upstate New York and in the wilderness. I'm in the mountains and it's beautiful here. Lots of, well, in the summer, winters are brutal, but let's just set that aside. 212 00:17:38,456 --> 00:17:50,176 you know amazing nature birds trees greenery you name it right and so right my my property opens 213 00:17:50,176 --> 00:17:57,676 into the forest which is owned by one of the colleges private colleges in around here and 214 00:17:57,676 --> 00:18:05,316 what they two or three years ago they said you know it's like they own like five six hundred 215 00:18:05,316 --> 00:18:10,736 acres of that entire mountain with the forest on it. And they said, you know what, we're 216 00:18:10,736 --> 00:18:20,736 renewable energy, we're doing our civic duty, we're going to, you know, take about five acres 217 00:18:20,736 --> 00:18:30,336 of that and make it completely solar. And they basically raised down, short of burning it to 218 00:18:30,336 --> 00:18:36,756 the ground, this incredible patch of wilderness where you had these majestic birds, owls, 219 00:18:36,876 --> 00:18:41,096 indigo buntings, hummingbirds, you name it, right? 220 00:18:41,236 --> 00:18:45,796 It completely burnt it to the ground and installed these grotesque panels. 221 00:18:46,436 --> 00:18:52,296 So it had a twofold negative environmental impact that completely outweighs anything positive 222 00:18:52,296 --> 00:18:55,856 in my mind, which is the effect on wildlife. 223 00:18:56,116 --> 00:18:57,356 And then second, the water table. 224 00:18:58,156 --> 00:19:01,076 There's some weird stuff going on with the water table with what they've done. 225 00:19:01,596 --> 00:19:07,196 So, like, the problem is that the incentives are completely warped 226 00:19:07,196 --> 00:19:09,436 because of this renewable energy thing. 227 00:19:09,716 --> 00:19:14,636 And it is so nakedly not about the environment or sustainability 228 00:19:14,636 --> 00:19:16,836 because, like, look at this example. 229 00:19:16,836 --> 00:19:21,536 And this is just one out of many, right, in these large-scale solar developments. 230 00:19:24,396 --> 00:19:25,916 Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. 231 00:19:25,916 --> 00:19:30,516 I mean, you need trees to hold the water in the soil, right? 232 00:19:30,656 --> 00:19:34,756 And so you take trees off and, yeah, you're going to have some water issues as a result. 233 00:19:34,976 --> 00:19:41,336 And that is definitely not the sort of solar that I think is being utilized in the right application. 234 00:19:41,516 --> 00:19:48,996 It only happens by, you know, the subsidization of energy. 235 00:19:49,456 --> 00:19:54,156 And, you know, a lot of ways, like, it's very performative, right? 236 00:19:54,156 --> 00:20:01,376 And like, it's greenwashing to then come in and say like, yeah, we're very green because we're producing the electricity this way. 237 00:20:01,496 --> 00:20:04,856 It's like, yeah, anyway, I can't agree with you enough, Javi. 238 00:20:05,196 --> 00:20:08,916 And at the same time, you know, there's lots of food applications for solar too. 239 00:20:09,076 --> 00:20:12,056 And it's a tool like anything else can be used, right? 240 00:20:12,276 --> 00:20:15,276 It can be used for ill, you know. 241 00:20:16,016 --> 00:20:22,336 Another application that makes sense to me that isn't rooftop is car parks, right? 242 00:20:22,336 --> 00:20:29,156 I mean, nobody likes to have their car sit there and bake on a hot summer day, so why not have solar roofs over that, right? 243 00:20:29,256 --> 00:20:37,876 Like, those sorts of things make sense, but when we're talking about destroying the environment in order to put energy generation, I mean, it just takes up too much real estate. 244 00:20:38,016 --> 00:20:42,416 It's not energy-dense enough to be used in an application like that. 245 00:20:43,496 --> 00:20:43,936 Yeah. 246 00:20:46,316 --> 00:20:47,116 Yeah, for sure. 247 00:20:47,916 --> 00:20:53,616 So Kent, let's talk about, you mentioned Portugal, that your travels took you there, and you said you stayed there for a while, right? 248 00:20:54,536 --> 00:20:56,516 Yeah, I'm actually a Portuguese citizen now. 249 00:20:57,256 --> 00:20:57,636 Oh, wow. 250 00:20:57,636 --> 00:21:11,536 So I married a Portuguese woman, and we lived there and kind of lived the American dream, but just in Portugal, which I came to think of as the original California, since it's the west coast of Europe. 251 00:21:12,156 --> 00:21:16,916 Great surf, very similar landscape, excellent food. 252 00:21:17,116 --> 00:21:28,036 But yeah, I very much fell in love with the Portuguese culture and speak a little bit of it, not nearly as fluently as I'd like, but it definitely is in my household. 253 00:21:28,396 --> 00:21:34,336 So I consider myself a honorary citizen of Portugal as well here. 254 00:21:36,116 --> 00:21:40,196 Yeah, you know, I've spent a few weeks in Lisbon. 255 00:21:40,196 --> 00:21:45,556 I was actually on my way to Bitcoin Atlantis in Madeira. 256 00:21:45,976 --> 00:21:46,476 When was that? 257 00:21:46,536 --> 00:21:48,436 Two years ago, 20 to 24. 258 00:21:48,996 --> 00:21:54,756 And decided to stop in Lisbon with family for a couple of weeks 259 00:21:54,756 --> 00:21:57,596 and absolutely fell in love with everything. 260 00:21:57,816 --> 00:22:01,356 As you said, the food, the people, the culture. 261 00:22:01,996 --> 00:22:07,496 We traveled a bit around, went to Kishkesh, which is beautiful beaches, 262 00:22:07,496 --> 00:22:10,916 just a lovely little coastal town. 263 00:22:11,756 --> 00:22:15,056 I think I heard you on one of the podcasts you were on 264 00:22:15,056 --> 00:22:16,156 say that you were in Sintra. 265 00:22:16,696 --> 00:22:19,756 We went there as well, which is just such a fascinating place. 266 00:22:21,996 --> 00:22:26,296 Did you live in Lisbon or was it in Sintra? 267 00:22:27,096 --> 00:22:28,116 In Sintra, yeah. 268 00:22:28,376 --> 00:22:31,856 So my wife is from the outside of Lisbon 269 00:22:31,856 --> 00:22:33,216 along what they call the line, 270 00:22:33,836 --> 00:22:36,796 which is what runs from Lisbon to Qashqai. 271 00:22:36,796 --> 00:22:38,096 There's a train line there. 272 00:22:38,216 --> 00:22:39,976 It's all south-facing, beautiful beaches. 273 00:22:41,316 --> 00:22:46,216 But, yeah, we wound up buying a home in the central region. 274 00:22:46,416 --> 00:22:51,796 So there's a little bit of distinction between central, the village, and central, the region. 275 00:22:51,956 --> 00:22:52,836 It's kind of the green area. 276 00:22:52,996 --> 00:22:53,716 And so we lived there. 277 00:22:53,936 --> 00:22:57,016 And, yeah, it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. 278 00:22:58,096 --> 00:23:01,256 And I'm looking forward to the next time I can get back. 279 00:23:01,336 --> 00:23:03,936 I mean, we've got family and young kids. 280 00:23:03,936 --> 00:23:09,036 So we have a family in Portugal and we've got a couple of young kids, so we'll always be going back to Portugal. 281 00:23:09,696 --> 00:23:12,536 And the Madeira conference was phenomenal. 282 00:23:12,876 --> 00:23:15,696 That was actually my first excuse to get out to Madeira. 283 00:23:16,236 --> 00:23:17,896 But what a special place. 284 00:23:18,716 --> 00:23:24,196 And yeah, I can't say enough good stuff about Portugal. 285 00:23:25,696 --> 00:23:29,796 It really is a hidden gem. 286 00:23:29,796 --> 00:23:33,156 For whatever reason, not that many people have flocked to it. 287 00:23:33,936 --> 00:23:36,396 And I mean, the food is incredible. 288 00:23:36,636 --> 00:23:38,496 The prices are so reasonable. 289 00:23:39,136 --> 00:23:43,616 Like we were having Michelin star quality meals. 290 00:23:44,216 --> 00:23:48,996 I mean, the restaurant didn't necessarily have a star, but the food was incredible. 291 00:23:49,156 --> 00:23:49,916 Wine was incredible. 292 00:23:50,756 --> 00:23:57,196 And paying basically one third of what you would in New York for a meal of that quality or maybe even one fourth. 293 00:23:58,496 --> 00:23:59,096 Yeah. 294 00:23:59,096 --> 00:24:05,436 Yeah, it's a culture that prides itself in its hospitality services. 295 00:24:06,096 --> 00:24:07,696 You can really feel it when you're there. 296 00:24:08,836 --> 00:24:10,336 You know, there's no tipping culture there. 297 00:24:10,496 --> 00:24:15,776 And actually, it sort of changed my mentality about tipping from living there. 298 00:24:17,296 --> 00:24:26,376 And yeah, you just find everywhere in Portugal that you go, it's just designed for human interaction. 299 00:24:26,376 --> 00:24:27,796 There's always the creature comfort. 300 00:24:27,796 --> 00:24:37,416 It's like you can't go more than a kilometer or two before running into another little cafe or a little bench to sit on that's perfectly positioned in the sun. 301 00:24:38,036 --> 00:24:43,656 Or you sit down and, you know, you're waited on attentively without any nuisance, you know. 302 00:24:44,436 --> 00:24:47,196 So there's a lot of pride for that in the culture. 303 00:24:47,196 --> 00:24:57,296 And I think a lot of the reason why people haven't gone to Portugal so much is because, I mean, I went there for the first time in 2014. 304 00:24:57,796 --> 00:24:59,696 and was blown away. 305 00:24:59,776 --> 00:25:02,316 It was absolutely not discovered at all by any Americans. 306 00:25:02,556 --> 00:25:04,836 That's changed quite a bit at this point. 307 00:25:04,836 --> 00:25:08,916 But, you know, they're really, unless you were coming to Lisbon, 308 00:25:08,996 --> 00:25:10,576 that was really the only draw. 309 00:25:10,936 --> 00:25:15,056 And Lisbon wasn't seen as a destination city for Americans. 310 00:25:15,336 --> 00:25:18,796 So it's, I think of it a lot as it's kind of the, 311 00:25:19,056 --> 00:25:21,256 Portugal being such a small country, you know, 312 00:25:21,276 --> 00:25:23,116 it's about the size of New Jersey, I believe. 313 00:25:24,456 --> 00:25:27,776 And it's just sitting on the edge of the Iberian Peninsula. 314 00:25:27,796 --> 00:25:30,916 So it's kind of like this barnacle just stuck on the rock of Europe. 315 00:25:31,556 --> 00:25:35,516 You really have to want to get there to experience it. 316 00:25:35,836 --> 00:25:39,696 A lot of people would go through Spain, but not make their way to Portugal. 317 00:25:39,916 --> 00:25:41,156 So, yeah, it stayed isolated. 318 00:25:41,436 --> 00:25:43,956 And it's also, I don't know if you heard this when you're in Qashqai, 319 00:25:44,096 --> 00:25:52,076 but Qashqai was the place that the Allied and Axis spies would meet 320 00:25:52,076 --> 00:25:55,336 to kind of try to negotiate things during the World War. 321 00:25:55,336 --> 00:26:02,096 So it also has a unique spot in sort of world history as well, not just for that, but the age of discovery. 322 00:26:02,496 --> 00:26:12,476 You know, the Portuguese are the first sailors going from a Western perspective that went out and discovered most of the modern world for Europeans. 323 00:26:12,856 --> 00:26:19,756 And they actually had the first global reserve currency, the Escudo. 324 00:26:19,756 --> 00:26:34,696 So, yeah, they've really, when I look at Portugal, I think one of the things that struck me as an American is this is what a culture looks like after it goes through an empire period and is a couple hundred years past that. 325 00:26:34,976 --> 00:26:36,736 And it sort of settles into itself. 326 00:26:37,076 --> 00:26:38,376 And it's not a bad thing. 327 00:26:39,316 --> 00:26:44,916 They do have Fado in Lisbon, which is the morning of the loss of the empire, right? 328 00:26:44,916 --> 00:26:51,716 the musical, I guess, almost operatic musical thing that comes up in these restaurants, 329 00:26:52,616 --> 00:26:54,036 which is interesting. 330 00:26:54,436 --> 00:26:55,396 I found that really interesting. 331 00:26:56,036 --> 00:27:00,156 Isn't that right, Kent, that Fado is really them mourning what was lost? 332 00:27:01,236 --> 00:27:06,016 Well, I don't know where saudade comes from exactly. 333 00:27:06,876 --> 00:27:07,676 You may be right. 334 00:27:08,156 --> 00:27:12,196 I didn't research it far enough, but there's this concept. 335 00:27:12,196 --> 00:27:17,736 The Portuguese have a word called sadad that is like nostalgia, but not quite the same. 336 00:27:17,736 --> 00:27:23,256 It basically means to miss something that you can't actually touch. 337 00:27:24,256 --> 00:27:26,576 It's the best translation I can come up with. 338 00:27:26,676 --> 00:27:36,496 But that's like the emotional valence behind fado music, which is really deep, soulful. 339 00:27:36,776 --> 00:27:40,596 And yes, it is somewhat operatic, but it's its own unique thing. 340 00:27:40,596 --> 00:27:53,992 It not like Italian opera at all but it has that like kind of formfulness that you hear a bit in the in the the operas But yeah I kind of think of you know the Spaniards and the Portuguese as 341 00:27:53,992 --> 00:27:59,672 twins on the Iberian Peninsula, which is, you know, that, that entire peninsula, 342 00:27:59,792 --> 00:28:05,032 if you're not familiar with it, that hangs off the end of France, it's that Spain and Portugal 343 00:28:05,032 --> 00:28:11,612 occupy. And it's like the Spaniards are the extroverted twin and the Portuguese are the 344 00:28:11,612 --> 00:28:20,992 introverted twin. That's interesting. And were you a Bitcoiner when you lived in Portugal? 345 00:28:21,912 --> 00:28:28,132 Yeah, absolutely. So I picked up Bitcoin 2015. Actually, let me take that back. 346 00:28:29,132 --> 00:28:33,152 When the first couple of years of living in Portugal, I was going through my shitcoin phase. 347 00:28:33,152 --> 00:28:46,752 Um, so this is got into Bitcoin, you know, late 2015 had that heroic rise, 2016, 2017 funded the transition of, of life to it being in Portugal. 348 00:28:46,812 --> 00:28:53,592 And then, you know, started to get into all the various ways that I could try to make more Bitcoin or shit coins. 349 00:28:53,752 --> 00:28:59,872 And yeah, it was not, not a good idea, but out of that eventually came my journey to get to Bitcoin mining. 350 00:28:59,872 --> 00:29:07,572 But there was a Bitcoin community in Lisbon and I was a pretty frequent attendee to their events. 351 00:29:08,272 --> 00:29:12,932 I don't know if it's even still around, but it was called The Block at that point in time, a cafe. 352 00:29:14,772 --> 00:29:23,712 I think now Madeira has become sort of the focal point of Bitcoin building and culture and anything else in Portugal. 353 00:29:23,712 --> 00:29:29,752 just with the sovereign engineering cohorts that are going through there, 354 00:29:30,092 --> 00:29:33,592 Andre Loja, all the work that he's doing out there. 355 00:29:33,772 --> 00:29:36,852 Although I'm sure Lisbon still has its own Bitcoin scene. 356 00:29:38,072 --> 00:29:40,032 I think you're right. I think that's right. 357 00:29:40,032 --> 00:29:46,472 I think a lot of what I see is that it's more crypto in Lisbon 358 00:29:46,472 --> 00:29:49,672 and Madeira is where the Bitcoin ethos is. 359 00:29:49,672 --> 00:30:00,452 so gant let's uh i guess we'll talk about mining now um and if i understand correctly 360 00:30:00,452 --> 00:30:10,592 sas mining allows me to allows a user to i guess rent uh asics that you 361 00:30:10,592 --> 00:30:15,472 uh that that sas mining keeps at various locations is that correct 362 00:30:15,472 --> 00:30:24,692 uh own uh the async so we provide yeah ownership but otherwise yeah that's accurate so what coming 363 00:30:24,692 --> 00:30:32,212 into this industry one of the things that i realized was that mining hadn't been made accessible 364 00:30:32,212 --> 00:30:36,852 to the masses like i'd tried mining in portugal and didn't have a very good experience from home 365 00:30:36,852 --> 00:30:42,972 and i was just sort of frustrated by the idea of why can't there be a web application i can go to 366 00:30:42,972 --> 00:30:49,852 like any other web 2.0 service and purchase a mining rig and receive the Bitcoin from that 367 00:30:49,852 --> 00:30:55,292 mining rig and manage it all in an easy to use way. And so that's, that became, that frustration 368 00:30:55,292 --> 00:31:01,752 led to what we've now built at SAS Mining. So you show up on our website, we've got a traditional 369 00:31:01,752 --> 00:31:08,292 e-commerce store that we've developed for selling mining rigs. You can see the value or the number 370 00:31:08,292 --> 00:31:12,852 of sats they'll produce each month and how much it's going to cost to run that mining rig. You 371 00:31:12,852 --> 00:31:20,352 purchase it and we get you deployed depending on the unit, either within 24 hours or three weeks, 372 00:31:20,392 --> 00:31:28,672 if we have to buy and ship. And then you pay the electric bill, you keep 85% of the SAT and we keep 373 00:31:28,672 --> 00:31:34,192 15%. And that's the only way we make money is through that management fee. So we pass through 374 00:31:34,192 --> 00:31:39,652 the costs of the hardware and the electricity, but we don't mark up either of those for profit. 375 00:31:39,652 --> 00:31:46,372 But we just keep the 15% of the Bitcoin that's mined in a sovereign way. 376 00:31:46,632 --> 00:31:48,132 So we're non-custodial. 377 00:31:48,692 --> 00:31:57,272 What we do is we instruct Ocean and Luxor to split the Bitcoin that's being paid out 378 00:31:57,272 --> 00:32:02,512 so that we just receive 15% and you keep 85% so we never touch your Bitcoin. 379 00:32:02,512 --> 00:32:07,152 What that means is we've aligned incentives with our customers. 380 00:32:07,152 --> 00:32:12,132 So if we're not producing, helping our customers produce Bitcoin, then we're not getting paid either. 381 00:32:14,552 --> 00:32:21,432 And, you know, mining revenue is a bit of a dark art for someone who isn't completely immersed in the industry, right? 382 00:32:21,452 --> 00:32:25,172 There's all these payout models, FPPS, all of that stuff. 383 00:32:26,552 --> 00:32:31,672 Ocean, I know because, I mean, I've had Mechanic on the show, it's been almost two years now, 384 00:32:31,672 --> 00:32:45,132 But he was sort of walking me through the different models back then where with Ocean, you get what you put in, right? 385 00:32:45,152 --> 00:32:51,492 It's not like the guaranteed revenue that you get from an FPPS style model. 386 00:32:51,492 --> 00:32:56,612 I guess maybe unpack that for me 387 00:32:56,612 --> 00:32:59,632 because I'm not immersed in this industry 388 00:32:59,632 --> 00:33:02,112 but also for our listeners who might not be as well 389 00:33:02,112 --> 00:33:06,232 what does the revenue model look like 390 00:33:06,232 --> 00:33:09,152 if you buy enough hash rate 391 00:33:09,152 --> 00:33:10,332 buy enough ASICs 392 00:33:10,332 --> 00:33:14,632 are you guaranteed a constant stream of revenue 393 00:33:14,632 --> 00:33:16,152 or is it based on whether 394 00:33:16,152 --> 00:33:19,332 your specific batch of hash rate 395 00:33:19,332 --> 00:33:24,372 was part of the winning block. 396 00:33:25,872 --> 00:33:29,372 Yeah, let me kind of try to break that down, Avi, 397 00:33:29,612 --> 00:33:31,592 because I think that there's... 398 00:33:31,592 --> 00:33:34,152 First, we should talk a little bit about 399 00:33:34,152 --> 00:33:37,752 what you produce with a mining rig or an ASIC. 400 00:33:38,232 --> 00:33:41,312 So your output, let's use a single mining rig, 401 00:33:41,552 --> 00:33:45,992 about 250 tera hash is what a single mining rig will produce. 402 00:33:45,992 --> 00:33:51,872 and that hash rate gives you the opportunity to generate Bitcoin. 403 00:33:51,872 --> 00:33:57,552 How much Bitcoin you generate is dictated by the difficulty on the network, right? 404 00:33:57,912 --> 00:34:03,252 And you can track this by the hash value metric. 405 00:34:03,492 --> 00:34:06,212 So last time I looked, which was last week, 406 00:34:06,292 --> 00:34:15,112 you're generating about 43,000 sats per petahash per day. 407 00:34:15,112 --> 00:34:23,652 so that doesn't quite translate to 250 terahash but just to just to give the idea basically right 408 00:34:23,652 --> 00:34:30,812 so your your terahash produces sats that's almost guaranteed as long as your mining rig is plugged in 409 00:34:30,812 --> 00:34:37,272 and pointed to a mining pool you will generate somewhere around there now the mining pool the 410 00:34:37,272 --> 00:34:44,912 difference between fpps and ocean does create some variability in the exact amount of rewards 411 00:34:44,912 --> 00:34:53,652 that are paid out. The simple way that I describe the difference between Ocean and FPPS is if you 412 00:34:53,652 --> 00:34:59,952 want the risk of luck or not, that will create a difference in the price. So Ocean's recently 413 00:34:59,952 --> 00:35:05,952 published some data, some long-term data that shows that over the long run, you do generate 414 00:35:05,952 --> 00:35:14,752 about 4% more Bitcoin by pointing to them than an FPPS pool. That 4%, I think of as the price 415 00:35:14,752 --> 00:35:21,272 of obscuring luck. And for a lot of miners, in fact, I would say the majority of the miners on 416 00:35:21,272 --> 00:35:27,452 the Bitcoin network, they're more fiat minded. Genuinely, they're not there for Bitcoin acquisition. 417 00:35:27,672 --> 00:35:32,812 They're there to acquire Bitcoin as a stepping stone to get more dollars. That is fundamentally 418 00:35:32,812 --> 00:35:38,392 true. If you look at the publicly traded mining companies, for instance, they owe dollar 419 00:35:38,392 --> 00:35:43,212 denominated returns to their investors, not Bitcoin denominated returns. So by definition, 420 00:35:43,212 --> 00:35:46,392 They are using Bitcoin as a stepping stone to get more dollars. 421 00:35:46,952 --> 00:35:52,752 But I'd say many, if not most of the miners in the community are doing the same as well. 422 00:35:52,992 --> 00:35:58,592 And they're not sophisticated thinking things through from how do I get more sats? 423 00:35:59,132 --> 00:36:04,752 They're thinking through how do I make my life easy and get to those dollars faster. 424 00:36:04,972 --> 00:36:10,112 So although you can get more rewards, I've had conversations with the guys at Ocean and others. 425 00:36:10,112 --> 00:36:18,752 even though you can get more rewards with ocean the hesitancy to deal with bearing the luck factor 426 00:36:18,752 --> 00:36:27,212 causes many of them to still stay with fpps which is an interesting bit of user friction i guess 427 00:36:27,212 --> 00:36:34,092 to to realize that but yeah we we offer the choice to our clients so we are a service provider we're 428 00:36:34,092 --> 00:36:37,172 We're not a self-miner. 429 00:36:37,672 --> 00:36:39,812 And as a result, we want to give our clients the choice. 430 00:36:39,952 --> 00:36:42,432 So we offer Luxor and Ocean to our clients. 431 00:36:42,572 --> 00:36:49,772 Luxor being an FPPS and well-reputed mining pool and then Ocean, which we've been talking about. 432 00:36:49,892 --> 00:36:52,532 So we offer that to clients through a simple toggle. 433 00:36:54,932 --> 00:36:58,852 Have you heard of this company called Wrigley? 434 00:36:58,852 --> 00:37:14,952 I have heard of Wrigley, and we did look at utilizing them at one point for some hash rate contracts that we needed to purchase as an interim step for some of our clients. 435 00:37:15,212 --> 00:37:19,212 But yeah, share with me what you think of their approach. 436 00:37:19,212 --> 00:37:27,572 so i've it's been a while but we i had evan and nico the founders of wrigley on the show 437 00:37:27,572 --> 00:37:35,072 seven eight maybe even a year ago now um and i think it's it's fascinating at least in theory 438 00:37:35,072 --> 00:37:42,772 right you know you bear as a it's i it's on the other side of the equation right so what you're 439 00:37:42,772 --> 00:37:46,772 talking about is someone who says look i don't want to have an asic in my house i want to own 440 00:37:46,772 --> 00:37:50,712 one. I want to participate in the network. I just don't want to deal with the headache of having it 441 00:37:50,712 --> 00:37:57,212 in my house. And I'd also rather have it close to an energy source that's more efficient than, 442 00:37:57,912 --> 00:38:02,492 like if you're in New York City, for example, you don't have the space, like electricity is, 443 00:38:02,952 --> 00:38:07,052 you're paying through the nose for it. So you're like, you know what, I'm going to outsource that 444 00:38:07,052 --> 00:38:13,212 part of it to sales mining. But then there's the other type of person who also wants to participate 445 00:38:13,212 --> 00:38:17,932 in the network. I think, you know, I don't even want to deal with the hardware. I just want to 446 00:38:17,932 --> 00:38:24,192 buy the hash rate that that hardware is producing, either via auction or direct sale that I don't, 447 00:38:24,192 --> 00:38:32,412 I think the direct sales are not, I don't think they're as beneficial, or, you know, you're not 448 00:38:32,412 --> 00:38:36,992 going to profit as much of the direct sales, as you will if you buy the hash rate in an auction. 449 00:38:36,992 --> 00:38:39,172 and I 450 00:38:39,172 --> 00:38:41,912 from what you're describing there 451 00:38:41,912 --> 00:38:43,852 these two seem pretty 452 00:38:43,852 --> 00:38:46,032 complimentary to me right like for example 453 00:38:46,032 --> 00:38:48,012 I could be so you could have a user 454 00:38:48,012 --> 00:38:49,272 saying yep I want to buy 455 00:38:49,272 --> 00:38:52,012 this device that produces the 456 00:38:52,012 --> 00:38:54,012 hash rate and keep it in a 457 00:38:54,012 --> 00:38:56,032 location that's most optimal 458 00:38:56,032 --> 00:38:57,892 which is in SaaS 459 00:38:57,892 --> 00:38:59,852 mining because you have facilities 460 00:38:59,852 --> 00:39:01,272 right next to these 461 00:39:01,272 --> 00:39:04,132 energy efficient 462 00:39:04,132 --> 00:39:04,972 sources 463 00:39:04,972 --> 00:39:07,572 and then there's folks who are saying, 464 00:39:07,652 --> 00:39:08,952 yeah, now I want to produce the output. 465 00:39:09,312 --> 00:39:13,932 I want to buy the output of those machines 466 00:39:13,932 --> 00:39:16,512 and participate in the network that way. 467 00:39:17,052 --> 00:39:20,032 So to me, it seems, at least in theory, 468 00:39:20,272 --> 00:39:22,172 very, very complementary approaches. 469 00:39:23,072 --> 00:39:23,792 Is that fair? 470 00:39:24,792 --> 00:39:25,752 I think so. 471 00:39:25,752 --> 00:39:29,132 I think they both serve a role 472 00:39:29,132 --> 00:39:32,112 and an important function in the industry. 473 00:39:32,112 --> 00:39:39,792 You know, if you purchase in a hash rate contract, in some ways it is a derivative of owning a miner, right? 474 00:39:39,832 --> 00:39:44,852 Because somebody else is agreeing to supply that hash rate, right? 475 00:39:44,912 --> 00:39:48,212 And they're being paid a premium as to what the network could generate for them. 476 00:39:49,412 --> 00:39:52,352 So it is a derivative product by definition. 477 00:39:52,352 --> 00:40:00,692 however um there is a place for that where a lot of people want to have uh time constrained um 478 00:40:00,692 --> 00:40:04,532 you know mining for themselves they don't want to just have a mining rig 479 00:40:04,532 --> 00:40:09,612 plowing along for you know two to three years which is what most people figure when they get 480 00:40:09,612 --> 00:40:19,552 into a mining rig um and it's a good way it's a good way to uh create some insurance uh around 481 00:40:19,552 --> 00:40:21,952 another mining operation, you know, backstop things. 482 00:40:22,352 --> 00:40:26,212 So there's a lot of good quality applications that come from it. 483 00:40:26,272 --> 00:40:30,152 So, yeah, I have no issue with hash rate contracts. 484 00:40:30,272 --> 00:40:35,752 I think the one thing that I am cautious of is turning that into cloud mining, 485 00:40:35,752 --> 00:40:38,532 as long as people are very clear of what that is, 486 00:40:38,612 --> 00:40:41,132 because cloud mining has a bit of a sordid history, 487 00:40:41,692 --> 00:40:45,492 and that's burnt a lot of people. 488 00:40:45,492 --> 00:40:57,832 Well, if the provenance of the hash rate is clean, right, doesn't that address the issues that led up to that sort of history? 489 00:40:57,832 --> 00:41:05,872 i i think it's i think the market's more educated now so i think it's less of an an issue but i you 490 00:41:05,872 --> 00:41:12,832 know if you were taking and not clear that you don't actually have title to the mining rig that 491 00:41:12,832 --> 00:41:17,972 is generating that hash rate and you package it up and say hey you're buying a mining rig that's 492 00:41:17,972 --> 00:41:25,232 where the problem came from yeah and then there was various almost like rehypopulation games that 493 00:41:25,232 --> 00:41:26,792 we're going along with that, right? 494 00:41:26,792 --> 00:41:29,912 Where it's like, oh shoot, your cloud miner's down. 495 00:41:29,912 --> 00:41:32,272 Well, maybe you've just taken that hash rate 496 00:41:32,272 --> 00:41:34,612 and decided to dilute it and sell it to two people 497 00:41:34,612 --> 00:41:46,108 at the same time And you kind of just shift it back and forth And now nobody totally happy because they not getting what they paid for right there um yeah anyway there just games and 498 00:41:46,108 --> 00:41:51,168 i don't even know what all of those were because it came a bit before my time getting into mining 499 00:41:51,168 --> 00:41:56,528 but i've heard enough of the negative reputation that as long as we're clear that hey you buy the 500 00:41:56,528 --> 00:42:02,768 cash rate contract um and this is not truly mining it's you're buying the output of mining 501 00:42:02,768 --> 00:42:07,488 then you're clear on what you're buying 502 00:42:07,488 --> 00:42:11,568 and I have no issue with the product. 503 00:42:12,568 --> 00:42:15,528 You're buying the output of mining for a fixed period of time 504 00:42:15,528 --> 00:42:17,848 not in perpetuity either. 505 00:42:19,368 --> 00:42:23,388 That's true. I think that clarification is important and I believe from what I've seen 506 00:42:23,388 --> 00:42:27,548 Wrigley does that. So let's talk about 507 00:42:27,548 --> 00:42:31,968 the locations. I believe you have one in Paraguay 508 00:42:31,968 --> 00:42:33,508 one somewhere in Africa. 509 00:42:34,628 --> 00:42:36,408 And actually, yeah, why don't you tell me 510 00:42:36,408 --> 00:42:38,668 what the locations are for these ASICs? 511 00:42:39,908 --> 00:42:42,928 Yeah, we've, so focus in, you know, 512 00:42:42,968 --> 00:42:44,588 we're a tech company first and foremost, 513 00:42:44,588 --> 00:42:45,928 and we have mining operations. 514 00:42:47,408 --> 00:42:50,248 And as a result of building this interface 515 00:42:50,248 --> 00:42:55,048 between users and their mining operations, 516 00:42:55,628 --> 00:42:57,528 it's allowed us to be a lot more scalable. 517 00:42:58,108 --> 00:43:00,048 We're not tied to infrastructure 518 00:43:00,048 --> 00:43:05,268 in the same way that a lot of folks are. 519 00:43:06,328 --> 00:43:10,248 And we've been able to launch in several different locations. 520 00:43:10,448 --> 00:43:14,788 So what we look for is, where is there a good price of electricity? 521 00:43:15,428 --> 00:43:18,928 Is there somebody there that we can trust to work with us? 522 00:43:18,928 --> 00:43:24,908 And then, you know, what is the actual mining operation look like? 523 00:43:24,948 --> 00:43:27,808 So do that fundamental diligence on the ground. 524 00:43:27,808 --> 00:43:33,148 you put all that together and we layer our software in there and it's allowed us to scale 525 00:43:33,148 --> 00:43:38,988 so we started off in the u.s um right now we're in south dakota uh then we went to paraguay 526 00:43:38,988 --> 00:43:45,428 uh norway and now ethiopia we're just getting going there so we're across four continents at 527 00:43:45,428 --> 00:43:49,988 this point and just think the term sheet will bring to market here in another couple weeks 528 00:43:49,988 --> 00:43:56,528 for another location in the u.s so um we've designed ourselves to be incredibly scalable 529 00:43:56,528 --> 00:44:01,828 and kind of unique in the mining space 530 00:44:01,828 --> 00:44:04,828 because A, we're a service provider, we're not a self-miner, 531 00:44:05,368 --> 00:44:09,688 and B, as far as I can tell, we're the only company 532 00:44:09,688 --> 00:44:14,108 that's offering this type of a service that is living on a Bitcoin standard. 533 00:44:14,108 --> 00:44:18,448 And so it leads to unique decisions that are being made 534 00:44:18,448 --> 00:44:21,008 that traditional hosts don't typically take. 535 00:44:21,008 --> 00:44:26,648 Paraguay is hydroelectric 536 00:44:26,648 --> 00:44:28,288 because of the Itaipu Dam 537 00:44:28,288 --> 00:44:31,608 I would think Norway would be geothermal 538 00:44:31,608 --> 00:44:33,508 correct? 539 00:44:34,688 --> 00:44:37,588 Actually almost all of our sites are hydro 540 00:44:37,588 --> 00:44:40,208 that's not true, South Dakota is not 541 00:44:40,208 --> 00:44:41,708 South Dakota, there's a lot of wind 542 00:44:41,708 --> 00:44:46,908 it's 80% carbon free energy 543 00:44:46,908 --> 00:44:48,388 so we have a carbon free mandate 544 00:44:48,388 --> 00:44:51,288 being 20% better than the network. 545 00:44:52,648 --> 00:44:54,488 You know, I am personally aligned with that. 546 00:44:54,548 --> 00:44:58,348 But more importantly, when we made that decision for our brand, 547 00:44:58,948 --> 00:45:00,688 when there was a lot of energy fudging, 548 00:45:00,748 --> 00:45:04,208 we wanted to give our clients cover to feel good about their decision 549 00:45:04,208 --> 00:45:07,308 and be able to talk about it with friends and family without getting chastised. 550 00:45:07,308 --> 00:45:10,328 And that's played out fairly well for us. 551 00:45:10,808 --> 00:45:14,148 But South Dakota is about 80% carbon-free. 552 00:45:14,148 --> 00:45:20,168 They do buy RECs, back to our previous conversation, to make that particular grid 100% carbon-free. 553 00:45:20,308 --> 00:45:23,508 But I question that 20% part, as I'm sure you do as well, Avi. 554 00:45:24,668 --> 00:45:27,528 And then, yeah, talk Paraguay. 555 00:45:27,608 --> 00:45:29,928 Ethiopia is the GERD dam. 556 00:45:31,248 --> 00:45:34,568 Massive, massive infrastructure project in Ethiopia that's hydro. 557 00:45:34,948 --> 00:45:38,428 And Norway is almost all up in the Arctic Circle there. 558 00:45:39,288 --> 00:45:41,448 And it's almost all hydro as well. 559 00:45:41,448 --> 00:45:52,068 In fact, we had a bit of a price spike this winter when it got colder than normal and froze a bunch of hydro dams up there. 560 00:45:52,188 --> 00:45:53,388 So, yeah, it's kind of interesting. 561 00:45:53,948 --> 00:46:03,708 Just because hydro is a steady producer of power doesn't mean that there's not still some aberrations that come up even with hydro. 562 00:46:05,328 --> 00:46:08,508 I mean, these rivers could dry up, right? 563 00:46:08,508 --> 00:46:14,328 especially if they're glacier-sourced rivers, 564 00:46:14,428 --> 00:46:15,508 maybe not as much, 565 00:46:15,608 --> 00:46:16,448 but if their rainfall, 566 00:46:17,368 --> 00:46:19,628 if their primary source of water is rainfall, 567 00:46:20,508 --> 00:46:23,188 that could be an issue, for example, 568 00:46:23,188 --> 00:46:29,328 if the rainy season isn't as planned, right? 569 00:46:30,048 --> 00:46:32,188 But I don't think any of these are... 570 00:46:32,888 --> 00:46:35,228 Well, actually, what about the Itaipu Dam? 571 00:46:35,228 --> 00:46:40,908 how is that river uh what is the source of water for that river 572 00:46:40,908 --> 00:46:48,108 uh it is gosh i don't know the name of the river off the top of my head or i've forgotten it um 573 00:46:48,108 --> 00:46:56,888 it's a massive massive river um there is not a measurable change even with uh rain flow uh too 574 00:46:56,888 --> 00:47:01,228 because it's such a big river i mean we're talking about something the equivalent of like 575 00:47:01,228 --> 00:47:07,208 Mississippi, right? It's just incredibly massive. But we did have that experience actually in 576 00:47:07,208 --> 00:47:12,688 Wisconsin. So that was our first data center in the US. And we closed it down, actually, 577 00:47:12,788 --> 00:47:18,508 at the end of this year. And it was, when we went in there, we analyzed five years of data 578 00:47:18,508 --> 00:47:24,368 to see, okay, what's the likelihood that we have any power related issues, you know, 579 00:47:24,408 --> 00:47:30,088 we're just mining a single megawatt there. And over five years, there was like one period of 580 00:47:30,088 --> 00:47:35,768 time for like two months where it was like okay we might be curtailed a little bit um and then it 581 00:47:35,768 --> 00:47:40,448 turned out our last year there like the water flows just simply weren't there um and we had 582 00:47:40,448 --> 00:47:46,428 really heavy curtailment and so when the contract came up there we said yeah this is a good time for 583 00:47:46,428 --> 00:47:55,148 us to to move on um so yes you are absolutely right um if you are in mining on hydro in areas 584 00:47:55,148 --> 00:47:58,688 that are dependent just on rainwater, it can be an issue. 585 00:48:03,068 --> 00:48:07,148 Which was the first facility outside of the U.S.? 586 00:48:08,928 --> 00:48:12,828 Paraguay was our first facility, then Norway. 587 00:48:14,448 --> 00:48:15,948 Ethiopia has been our latest. 588 00:48:17,668 --> 00:48:20,968 Did you spend any time in Paraguay? 589 00:48:20,968 --> 00:48:30,728 yeah i mean i i physically live in south america um so um yeah i speak spanish and portuguese so 590 00:48:30,728 --> 00:48:34,548 it's not so hard to do business throughout the americas if you know those three languages 591 00:48:34,548 --> 00:48:46,228 um but uh yeah i've spent time in paraguay a unique culture um and semi-tropical uh you know 592 00:48:46,228 --> 00:48:52,888 there is a heat season. The grid is a bit unique. You know, if you're used to Western reality, 593 00:48:53,308 --> 00:48:58,228 getting used to places that don't have the same grid infrastructure, take a little bit of 594 00:48:58,228 --> 00:49:03,628 get your head wrapped around. Like the idea of illegal mining was something that caused a bit 595 00:49:03,628 --> 00:49:09,748 of a kerfuffle for the Bitcoin community. And it was which was kind of funny to watch. I just to 596 00:49:09,748 --> 00:49:13,728 comment on that for a minute. So it was like 18 months ago, I think there was a crackdown on 597 00:49:13,728 --> 00:49:18,048 illegal mining. A lot of folks in the Bitcoin community got up in arms about it, but quite 598 00:49:18,048 --> 00:49:22,888 literally it was the theft of electricity. You know, in Latin America, you can see where people 599 00:49:22,888 --> 00:49:29,188 just throw jackpot cables on electric lines and use power, right? And if that's not metered, 600 00:49:29,288 --> 00:49:33,388 then it's literally being stolen. And there was a lot of that that was going on in Paraguay. 601 00:49:33,388 --> 00:49:39,888 And so they cracked down on a bunch of farms and seized the equipment. And now, the last few weeks, 602 00:49:39,888 --> 00:49:44,768 the state is actually looking to deploy that equipment and start mining on it themselves. 603 00:49:45,128 --> 00:49:49,668 So I think that's actually a wonderful thing because they'll come to understand mining a lot better 604 00:49:49,668 --> 00:49:53,648 and make the entire industry a bit more secure in the country. 605 00:49:55,568 --> 00:50:03,048 And I was asking because I was at Accelerating Bitcoin in Asuncion in September of last year, 606 00:50:03,388 --> 00:50:04,468 a really good conference. 607 00:50:04,468 --> 00:50:10,648 And they actually had a trip out for some of the speakers to the Itaipu Dam. 608 00:50:10,928 --> 00:50:20,628 I couldn't imagine sitting in a bus for four and a half hours and then coming back four and a half hours all the way to the Brazilian border. 609 00:50:20,748 --> 00:50:22,588 So I skipped that. 610 00:50:23,508 --> 00:50:26,428 But if there was a simpler way of getting there, I probably would have. 611 00:50:27,788 --> 00:50:29,968 But it is fascinating. 612 00:50:29,968 --> 00:50:36,628 culture. There's an amazing Bitcoin scene there. 613 00:50:37,068 --> 00:50:39,728 Another hidden gem, by the way, right? 614 00:50:40,428 --> 00:50:44,948 Asuncion especially, the people doing remarkable work, both on the Bitcoin and Nost aside. 615 00:50:45,628 --> 00:50:48,448 Although Kent, I don't know how familiar you are with this. 616 00:50:48,448 --> 00:50:53,608 I've been hearing some rumblings that in the last few weeks, maybe month, 617 00:50:53,608 --> 00:51:00,588 that the government, the Paraguayan government is sort of, 618 00:51:01,168 --> 00:51:09,428 it had taken a fairly lax attitude to, you know, 619 00:51:09,508 --> 00:51:11,568 Bitcoin and Bitcoin-related things, investments, 620 00:51:11,728 --> 00:51:13,128 earning in Bitcoin, so on and so forth. 621 00:51:13,168 --> 00:51:17,208 But I think they're sort of scrutinizing that a little more, 622 00:51:17,528 --> 00:51:21,248 or at least there's a regulation out that proposes that. 623 00:51:21,328 --> 00:51:22,188 Are you familiar with that? 624 00:51:22,188 --> 00:51:28,428 yeah actually we had to dig into it because we are mining there and see okay does this impact us 625 00:51:28,428 --> 00:51:35,288 um so just back to etapu for one minute in that tour because i think um you know there's certain 626 00:51:35,288 --> 00:51:39,848 places i'm sure you've been i think niagara falls is one of these where you go and you just 627 00:51:39,848 --> 00:51:43,748 you experience it you're like wow this is a force of nature this is worth seeing 628 00:51:43,748 --> 00:51:50,868 i would classify etapu dam as and the etapa waterfalls is in that same category um i don't 629 00:51:50,868 --> 00:51:58,728 know that I've ever seen a bigger infrastructure project than the Atapu Dam. I mean, it's unbelievably 630 00:51:58,728 --> 00:52:05,388 big. I mean, from start to finish, I think it's like five kilometers long. So it's quite a thing 631 00:52:05,388 --> 00:52:12,988 to witness. I can't say it's worth, you know, nine hours on a bus for a return trip. But the, 632 00:52:12,988 --> 00:52:19,228 you know, when it comes to Paraguay, to shift back to that question you were asking, 633 00:52:19,228 --> 00:52:32,528 They came out a couple weeks ago with what seems like a very unthought-out approach to wanting to track who their crypto users are in the country. 634 00:52:32,528 --> 00:52:44,008 So anybody that is making that has an RUC, which is a basically a tax residency in Paraguay, which is fairly easy to acquire. 635 00:52:44,528 --> 00:52:51,028 They are mandated to report their crypto assets on a form. 636 00:52:52,668 --> 00:53:01,308 And pretty much everybody in the community, Bitcoin and crypto alike, is look at this and turn their head sideways and said, yeah, no. 637 00:53:02,528 --> 00:53:07,308 You know, it's pretty invasive, so it's self-reported. 638 00:53:07,688 --> 00:53:09,628 How are they going to know if you don't? 639 00:53:10,268 --> 00:53:17,788 And the bigger fear is, aren't you just collecting and creating a massive honeypot that nefarious actors can use? 640 00:53:17,928 --> 00:53:23,648 I mean, we've heard about Brazilian gangs that come across the border into Paraguay, 641 00:53:23,728 --> 00:53:26,388 and so there is threats of violence in this area. 642 00:53:26,388 --> 00:53:31,388 and it just seems like most people that I've spoke to 643 00:53:31,388 --> 00:53:33,268 are simply planning to ignore it. 644 00:53:33,888 --> 00:53:35,128 And that's not a recommendation. 645 00:53:35,848 --> 00:53:38,968 I mean, you have to make your own decisions about what to do. 646 00:53:39,148 --> 00:53:41,168 I do not have a tax residency there. 647 00:53:41,688 --> 00:53:43,628 It doesn't impact SaaS mining. 648 00:53:44,068 --> 00:53:45,428 We dug into it with legal. 649 00:53:46,288 --> 00:53:48,908 However, it does seem like quite an invasive 650 00:53:48,908 --> 00:53:52,548 and poorly thought out approach 651 00:53:52,548 --> 00:53:55,348 to trying to track crypto assets in the country. 652 00:53:56,388 --> 00:53:58,868 Mm hmm. So dead on arrival then? 653 00:54:00,208 --> 00:54:21,488 I don't know that it's dead on arrival. We will see how things play out. But, you know, in a lot of places, the state is just not used to dealing with something that they can't control. And I think that kind of comes as a shock when they realize this just about, you know, encryption, private key management. 654 00:54:21,488 --> 00:54:42,528 So I think it'll take a while for them to get educated on this. And we've seen steps in Paraguay where the politicians have proposed legislation only to decide to pull it back after an uproar happened. Hopefully that happens here, but that hasn't happened yet. 655 00:54:42,528 --> 00:54:52,308 yeah hopefully you know the one interesting thing i found that was one of the many interesting 656 00:54:52,308 --> 00:54:57,688 things i found in my visit to asuncion which is actually my first visit south of the equator 657 00:54:57,688 --> 00:55:02,948 last year it's amazing that it's taken me this long to stray south of the equator but 658 00:55:02,948 --> 00:55:10,108 the money in Paraguay, the currency is called Guarani, 659 00:55:10,108 --> 00:55:15,148 which is the name of the tribe, right? 660 00:55:15,228 --> 00:55:18,968 Of the native tribe of Paraguay. 661 00:55:19,268 --> 00:55:21,048 And I thought that was super interesting. 662 00:55:21,308 --> 00:55:28,728 It's rare that the currency's name is so deeply tied 663 00:55:28,728 --> 00:55:32,108 to something historically meaningful, right? 664 00:55:32,108 --> 00:55:33,228 most of the other places. 665 00:55:33,264 --> 00:55:40,084 not just in South America, right, which is peso or some derivative of that word peso, 666 00:55:40,804 --> 00:55:43,984 or anywhere else in the world. 667 00:55:44,224 --> 00:55:49,784 Money has some kind of like, it almost means shells or something like that, right? 668 00:55:49,864 --> 00:55:56,824 But it's rare to see a country that's calling their money something so deep from their history. 669 00:55:59,424 --> 00:56:00,904 Yeah, it is. 670 00:56:00,904 --> 00:56:07,404 And I think it points to something that is fundamentally unique about South America. 671 00:56:07,704 --> 00:56:09,904 You know, I live in Peru, not Paraguay. 672 00:56:10,684 --> 00:56:15,044 And there are something like 26 indigenous tribes in Peru. 673 00:56:15,884 --> 00:56:19,024 You know, there's a separate language like Paraguay. 674 00:56:19,504 --> 00:56:20,824 Quechua is what it's called here. 675 00:56:21,784 --> 00:56:28,644 The people, more of the mountain tribes are very proud of and continue to speak and are taught in schools. 676 00:56:28,644 --> 00:56:36,044 and you know that it wasn't like the the colonizing forces that came in were kind 677 00:56:36,044 --> 00:56:43,824 to tribal cultures and they also didn't take the tribal cultures and and and put them on 678 00:56:43,824 --> 00:56:49,144 parcels of land and say this is your new home and as a result these tribal cultures have have 679 00:56:49,144 --> 00:56:58,404 integrated into western society and and in fact here in Peru anybody that kind of has that heritage 680 00:56:58,404 --> 00:57:04,984 and westernized, they call them mestizo, which basically means mixed. 681 00:57:06,284 --> 00:57:07,784 Sorry, this is the language here. 682 00:57:07,864 --> 00:57:09,824 I'm not trying to be racist with my language. 683 00:57:10,124 --> 00:57:11,704 It's just how things are described. 684 00:57:12,704 --> 00:57:19,384 But there is more pride and connection to that heritage 685 00:57:19,384 --> 00:57:22,564 within the entire culture as a result. 686 00:57:22,564 --> 00:57:24,524 So I'm not totally surprised. 687 00:57:24,524 --> 00:57:33,784 And I don't know if that's unique to Paraguay that they tied the name of their currency to the indigenous culture there. 688 00:57:36,564 --> 00:57:37,884 What is it in Peru? 689 00:57:38,824 --> 00:57:39,964 It's called the Sole. 690 00:57:40,684 --> 00:57:51,404 And I was just actually typing into an LLM here to see what the etymology of that is, because you got me curious with this question, if there is any connection. 691 00:57:51,404 --> 00:58:05,504 And I do know in, I don't know about Paraguay, how stable it is in there, but I know that the exchange rate in Peru has been incredibly stable, actually, about the 12 years that I've been coming to Peru. 692 00:58:06,784 --> 00:58:08,624 Exchange rate really hasn't changed much. 693 00:58:08,624 --> 00:58:14,824 So, and it's also one of the reasons with that stability why there's not a tremendous amount of Bitcoin adopting here. 694 00:58:14,824 --> 00:58:18,024 so there was a 695 00:58:18,024 --> 00:58:21,544 I don't know if these were just 696 00:58:21,544 --> 00:58:23,744 viral videos 697 00:58:23,744 --> 00:58:25,604 I mean when I say viral I mean 698 00:58:25,604 --> 00:58:27,464 within the Bitcoin world 699 00:58:27,464 --> 00:58:29,344 which is a few thousand views 700 00:58:29,344 --> 00:58:30,944 as opposed to millions 701 00:58:30,944 --> 00:58:32,624 of 702 00:58:32,624 --> 00:58:35,364 motive Peru 703 00:58:35,364 --> 00:58:37,764 right there was this non-profit 704 00:58:37,764 --> 00:58:39,624 group 705 00:58:39,624 --> 00:58:42,104 supposedly funded by 706 00:58:42,104 --> 00:58:44,084 a secret Bitcoin whale 707 00:58:44,084 --> 00:58:48,344 who was working with the local population 708 00:58:48,344 --> 00:58:51,804 and might not have been in the capital city, Lima, 709 00:58:52,024 --> 00:58:53,384 but maybe elsewhere, 710 00:58:54,204 --> 00:58:57,104 and just getting them orange-billed on a Bitcoin standard. 711 00:58:57,524 --> 00:59:00,164 Did you see any evidence of that? 712 00:59:01,644 --> 00:59:03,564 Yeah, there's actually a circular economy 713 00:59:03,564 --> 00:59:05,584 that I've gone to that's near where I live. 714 00:59:07,764 --> 00:59:10,284 And there is, I mean, 715 00:59:10,284 --> 00:59:25,564 And I actually wish that more of the Bitcoin community knew about motive, because as far as I can tell, there's no organization that has generated more circular economies that continue to function for several years now. 716 00:59:25,564 --> 00:59:31,904 I'm friends with Vale, the principal operator of that nonprofit. 717 00:59:32,464 --> 00:59:36,304 Last I looked, 16 were running and is looking to add more. 718 00:59:36,304 --> 00:59:43,444 so they've very much figured out a blueprint that works um sponsoring surf competitions in peru 719 00:59:43,444 --> 00:59:50,424 i mean it's very cool and peru is a unique country i have to say uh from the standpoint that 720 00:59:50,424 --> 00:59:55,984 you know for most americans it took me a while to realize this but when you go south of the 721 00:59:55,984 --> 01:00:02,484 the mexico u.s border most of latin america is sort of painted with a mexico paintbrush 722 01:00:02,484 --> 01:00:07,904 and it's not true, but it's sort of, it's what you know, uh, coming from a U S perspective. 723 01:00:07,904 --> 01:00:12,884 I used to do it too. And so it gets applied all the way down. But Peru is one of the few countries 724 01:00:12,884 --> 01:00:18,404 where you mentioned Peruda people and they don't look askance at you. They, they say, Oh, cool. 725 01:00:18,724 --> 01:00:22,424 You know, it's got, got a good reputation. I think it's mainly from Machu Picchu, frankly. 726 01:00:22,984 --> 01:00:29,684 Um, but it is a very baddington bear, baddington bear. Thank you. Yes. Which is one of my daughter's 727 01:00:29,684 --> 01:00:37,464 favorites um it it's uh yeah it's got a very like cool reputation you know there's all this stuff 728 01:00:37,464 --> 01:00:43,884 with ancient civilizations that makes it somewhat mystical um and so it has a different place i think 729 01:00:43,884 --> 01:00:50,624 for most americans than the rest of latin america but you know it's the simple way that i describe 730 01:00:50,624 --> 01:00:55,764 peru is imagine what mexico would be like if it didn't border the u.s right because that entire 731 01:00:55,764 --> 01:01:03,944 relationship has just changed the culture. It's got a similar set of geographies. So whether that's 732 01:01:03,944 --> 01:01:11,544 the coastal region, it's like Baja, California, whether it's the mountain region, that is what 733 01:01:11,544 --> 01:01:17,624 most people think of when they think of Peru, or whether it's the jungle region, which is the area 734 01:01:17,624 --> 01:01:23,644 where I live, the Amazon region, you know, very distinct cultures, very distinct foods, language 735 01:01:23,644 --> 01:01:27,704 differences. So yeah, quite similar to Mexico 736 01:01:27,704 --> 01:01:31,804 for me. But the food is incredible in Peru. In fact, a couple 737 01:01:31,804 --> 01:01:35,704 years ago, the number one Michelin star rated restaurant in the world 738 01:01:35,704 --> 01:01:36,344 was in Lima. 739 01:01:38,584 --> 01:01:40,524 Yeah, I've seen the Bourdain episode. 740 01:01:41,864 --> 01:01:45,064 Episodes, I think you might have been there twice. Absolutely 741 01:01:45,064 --> 01:01:49,724 fascinating stuff. And obviously you do get ceviche in New York, 742 01:01:49,844 --> 01:01:53,264 but I'm sure that's nothing compared to authentic 743 01:01:53,264 --> 01:01:55,144 Peruvian food. 744 01:01:57,144 --> 01:01:58,864 Kent, we're at the one hour mark, 745 01:01:58,964 --> 01:02:01,244 so maybe it's a good time to pause 746 01:02:01,244 --> 01:02:05,164 and switch and listen to our Value for Value 747 01:02:05,164 --> 01:02:08,484 music segment for the day. 748 01:02:08,564 --> 01:02:12,344 So I've picked out a song by an Australian band. 749 01:02:12,344 --> 01:02:14,344 They're called Social Hijack. 750 01:02:14,844 --> 01:02:18,584 And the name of the song is Enough. 751 01:02:23,264 --> 01:02:53,244 guitar solo 752 01:02:53,264 --> 01:02:58,344 I'm tired of you 753 01:02:58,344 --> 01:03:00,064 I'm tired of this 754 01:03:00,064 --> 01:03:01,484 I've had enough 755 01:03:01,484 --> 01:03:03,564 But you will never break me 756 01:03:03,564 --> 01:03:04,684 Getting afraid 757 01:03:04,684 --> 01:03:06,324 Cannot pretend 758 01:03:06,324 --> 01:03:07,764 You're at it again 759 01:03:07,764 --> 01:03:09,904 Is it something you have from? 760 01:03:09,904 --> 01:03:14,104 Maybe you 761 01:03:14,104 --> 01:03:20,964 Maybe you 762 01:03:20,964 --> 01:03:26,364 And I see, and I see it's you 763 01:03:26,364 --> 01:03:32,664 And I see, and I see the truth 764 01:03:32,664 --> 01:03:38,804 And I see, I see her soul 765 01:03:38,804 --> 01:03:45,444 And I will always know what you do 766 01:03:47,444 --> 01:03:50,584 I'm tired of you, I'm tired of this 767 01:03:50,584 --> 01:03:52,084 I would enough 768 01:03:52,084 --> 01:03:54,084 But you will never break me 769 01:03:54,084 --> 01:03:55,324 Getting afraid 770 01:03:55,324 --> 01:03:56,824 Cannot pretend 771 01:03:56,824 --> 01:03:58,264 You're at it again 772 01:03:58,264 --> 01:04:00,584 Is it something you hide from me? 773 01:04:00,584 --> 01:04:04,584 Let me you 774 01:04:04,584 --> 01:04:11,524 Let me you 775 01:04:11,524 --> 01:04:14,544 And I see 776 01:04:14,544 --> 01:04:16,864 And I see it's you 777 01:04:16,864 --> 01:04:23,184 And I see, and I see the truth 778 01:04:23,184 --> 01:04:29,824 And I see, I see her slow 779 01:04:29,824 --> 01:04:35,864 And I will always know what you do 780 01:04:46,864 --> 01:05:16,844 guitar solo 781 01:05:16,864 --> 01:05:19,864 Let me know. 782 01:05:21,744 --> 01:05:25,864 Let me know. 783 01:05:28,364 --> 01:05:31,664 And I see, and I see it's you. 784 01:05:34,364 --> 01:05:37,944 And I see, and I see the truth. 785 01:05:40,644 --> 01:05:44,044 And I see, I see hope so. 786 01:05:46,864 --> 01:05:53,004 And I will always know what you do 787 01:06:16,864 --> 01:06:23,244 That was enough by Social Hijack. 788 01:06:23,564 --> 01:06:27,804 I've got the 90% split set up in the chapter. 789 01:06:28,244 --> 01:06:32,784 If you like that, if you want to support this great Australian band, 790 01:06:32,784 --> 01:06:36,844 hit that rewind button and hit boost. 791 01:06:37,324 --> 01:06:43,124 90% of all your streams and your boost during the song will go to the band. 792 01:06:43,124 --> 01:06:48,724 Kent, are you plugged into the value-for-value music space at all? 793 01:06:49,704 --> 01:06:50,284 I'm not. 794 01:06:51,824 --> 01:06:55,924 Are you aware of what's happening with independent music? 795 01:06:57,244 --> 01:07:02,324 I'm aware of the value-to-value idea generally. 796 01:07:02,844 --> 01:07:07,004 I do listen to Rabbit Hole Recap and hear them champion that, 797 01:07:07,124 --> 01:07:11,264 but I'm on NOSTER but not much of a participant. 798 01:07:11,264 --> 01:07:13,084 Every once in a while I'll post something there. 799 01:07:13,124 --> 01:07:18,904 What we found is most of our customer base is on Twitter and LinkedIn. 800 01:07:19,344 --> 01:07:22,604 And so that's where I spend most of my time as a result. 801 01:07:23,564 --> 01:07:23,664 Yeah. 802 01:07:24,684 --> 01:07:32,384 So you raise an interesting point there, which I've been thinking about, Kent, which is, you know, you go to a Bitcoin conference. 803 01:07:32,784 --> 01:07:35,364 And yeah, there is a mining presence there, right? 804 01:07:36,264 --> 01:07:40,524 But it's not that much of a mining. 805 01:07:40,524 --> 01:07:42,264 I mean, it depends on the conference, obviously. 806 01:07:42,264 --> 01:07:50,764 But then you go to a mining conference and you don't see that many Bitcoiners there, or at least the type of Bitcoiners you would likely see at a Bitcoin conference. 807 01:07:50,984 --> 01:08:05,524 It almost seems to me that these are two separate worlds, despite being part of the same broader ecosystem, which is Bitcoin, with really overlap points that are few and far between. 808 01:08:06,284 --> 01:08:07,604 Do you think that's a fair assessment? 809 01:08:09,144 --> 01:08:10,184 Yes, I do. 810 01:08:10,184 --> 01:08:24,918 and I think it a problem for our community because it leading to two different conversations and divergent ideologies about the network right I mean if your incentive is to get fiat versus Bitcoin 811 01:08:25,078 --> 01:08:29,098 which is most of the mining community, well, it doesn't necessarily mean your long-term 812 01:08:29,098 --> 01:08:35,238 alignment is with the Bitcoin network versus the Bitcoin community. I do see that the mindset and 813 01:08:35,238 --> 01:08:43,218 philosophy is. So it's one of the things that I am personally working to rectify, which is why 814 01:08:43,218 --> 01:08:50,298 we cater specifically for folks looking to acquire Bitcoin, not generate passive income flows. 815 01:08:50,838 --> 01:08:54,538 And we've found, frankly, that Bitcoiners make better customers for us anyway. 816 01:08:56,478 --> 01:09:03,138 So I guess this goes back to the schism, which I was alluding to in the sermon, which is really 817 01:09:03,138 --> 01:09:08,638 inspired by some of the things you've said in the past. So why don't you walk through that thesis, 818 01:09:09,478 --> 01:09:18,918 Kent? What WTF happened in 2013? And philosophically, how are we here today? Or why are we here today? 819 01:09:20,378 --> 01:09:26,938 Yeah, I call this hidden history for Bitcoin, because most people aren't aware of it. So 820 01:09:26,938 --> 01:09:36,138 If you were running a node from Bitcoin's launch through 2013, you had a simple toggle to be mining your own sats. 821 01:09:36,618 --> 01:09:45,498 And if you run into a Bitcoiner from that 2010 to 2013 era, almost all of them acquired their sats through mining. 822 01:09:46,198 --> 01:09:52,838 And you see that they have a different attitude about mining as well as the current community does. 823 01:09:53,378 --> 01:09:55,998 What happened in 2013 is two things. 824 01:09:55,998 --> 01:10:01,538 that quickly created a fork in how we acquire Bitcoin. 825 01:10:01,878 --> 01:10:04,478 The first was the ASIC came along. 826 01:10:04,918 --> 01:10:08,158 So that made it more difficult to mine, right? 827 01:10:08,218 --> 01:10:09,378 And that was starting, 828 01:10:09,778 --> 01:10:12,018 that started to separate the node from mining 829 01:10:12,018 --> 01:10:13,698 in the first place. 830 01:10:13,698 --> 01:10:17,878 So more challenges to mine created some inconvenience 831 01:10:17,878 --> 01:10:20,018 and then Coinbase opened their doors 832 01:10:20,018 --> 01:10:21,878 and offered more convenience. 833 01:10:22,358 --> 01:10:24,558 So the combination of those two things, 834 01:10:24,558 --> 01:10:30,198 You know, we're humans as Bitcoiners, so we've gotten to the exchange at a convenience to buy rather than mine. 835 01:10:31,478 --> 01:10:39,538 And as a result, that's left, that split the community into two different communities writ large. 836 01:10:39,538 --> 01:10:52,418 And as you said, you know, probably one of the most ironic moments of my career was last year being on stage at adopting Bitcoin in El Salvador. 837 01:10:52,418 --> 01:10:58,038 and the week before that, you know, I've been scheduled to do that presentation for a month or two. 838 01:10:58,798 --> 01:11:02,558 And the week before that, I was invited to be at Mining Disrupt in Texas, 839 01:11:02,878 --> 01:11:05,078 which is a mining only conference to speak. 840 01:11:05,558 --> 01:11:11,118 And it was almost the exact same time, like just not possible to be in two places at once. 841 01:11:11,398 --> 01:11:15,638 And, you know, I knew that there was very few Bitcoiners at Mining Disrupt, 842 01:11:15,758 --> 01:11:18,578 while I also knew that there's very few miners at Adopting Bitcoin. 843 01:11:18,578 --> 01:11:26,738 And so it was a bit of a surreal moment to live through that and be talking about it on stage in El Salvador. 844 01:11:29,358 --> 01:11:31,098 Yeah, I can only imagine. 845 01:11:31,538 --> 01:11:38,458 But wasn't the schism inevitable, Kent, given the nature of the difficulty adjustment? 846 01:11:39,918 --> 01:11:42,378 I think specialization, it's a fair point. 847 01:11:42,698 --> 01:11:45,738 I think specialization was going to lead to it to a degree. 848 01:11:45,738 --> 01:11:51,478 And if you're interested, I'll be given a presentation on this at BitBlockBoom in a couple of weeks. 849 01:11:51,758 --> 01:11:55,298 But I think that there's several reasons why it happened. 850 01:11:55,998 --> 01:12:09,678 And I think one of the primary ones is the Bitcoin community just didn't think through the downstream consequences of not continuing to be the majority hash rate on the network. 851 01:12:09,678 --> 01:12:17,478 um you know there wasn't a lot of a lot of folks that saw that coming uh second i also think the 852 01:12:17,478 --> 01:12:25,958 mining community let down the bitcoin acquisition community um as well you know there's been a 853 01:12:25,958 --> 01:12:32,558 glaring lack of trust that has uh permeated within the bitcoin community from the mining community 854 01:12:32,558 --> 01:12:36,918 right because there's been frankly a lot of bad actors that have come along and not treated the 855 01:12:36,918 --> 01:12:43,018 customer wealth. Nobody's gained the trust or created the user experience that's allowed 856 01:12:43,018 --> 01:12:48,318 Bitcoiners to step in and acquire their Bitcoin the way that Satoshi designed it and with 857 01:12:48,318 --> 01:12:54,618 convenience, right? And that's, I would say, probably the core mission at SaaS Mining is to 858 01:12:54,618 --> 01:12:59,538 create that convenience and compete with the exchanges for Bitcoiners' business. 859 01:12:59,538 --> 01:13:06,138 I just want to go back to the inevitability topic 860 01:13:06,138 --> 01:13:10,398 the tragic inevitability of this in my mind 861 01:13:10,398 --> 01:13:13,378 because again the difficulty adjustment 862 01:13:13,378 --> 01:13:19,978 is that essentially what it means in this context is 863 01:13:19,978 --> 01:13:21,918 if the network is going to grow 864 01:13:21,918 --> 01:13:25,858 it means the difficulty is going to ramp upwards 865 01:13:25,858 --> 01:13:27,798 which means you're going to need more hash rate 866 01:13:27,798 --> 01:13:45,518 Which means you're going to need more specialized hardware, which means you're going to need capital, which means at some point it will start concentrating in hands that are able to raise more capital, which means at some point they will have to turn to the capital markets and go public. 867 01:13:45,518 --> 01:13:49,758 which means that once they're publicly traded companies, 868 01:13:50,038 --> 01:13:52,638 they are fiat companies, right? 869 01:13:52,638 --> 01:13:57,018 The capital markets are 100% fiat. 870 01:13:58,098 --> 01:14:02,518 So if Bitcoin has to grow, this kind of has to happen, no? 871 01:14:02,818 --> 01:14:05,398 Or am I missing something here? 872 01:14:07,038 --> 01:14:10,598 Yes, I think that the off-rent that's missed 873 01:14:10,598 --> 01:14:13,718 and is part of the thesis we're playing out 874 01:14:13,718 --> 01:14:21,538 is that it's lower cost to aggregate capital from lots of people rather than turn to the Wall 875 01:14:21,538 --> 01:14:29,298 Street capital markets. And I say that because you can actually analyze the pubcos and see what 876 01:14:29,298 --> 01:14:35,758 it costs for them to produce a Bitcoin. Not what they claim in their filings, but actually just 877 01:14:35,758 --> 01:14:41,098 take how much Bitcoin did you produce and how much did you spend to do that. And if you do that over 878 01:14:41,098 --> 01:14:47,978 a three-year time period, which is about the amortization of a mining ASIC, you will see 879 01:14:47,978 --> 01:14:54,118 that they're producing Bitcoin at a much more expensive price than you can go to the secondary 880 01:14:54,118 --> 01:14:58,998 market and purchase it for the exchanges. That leaves a lot of room for competition, 881 01:14:59,858 --> 01:15:08,638 and part of what we are competing on is to be able to aggregate capital at a lower price than 882 01:15:08,638 --> 01:15:16,218 Wall Street can. And to date, we have been doing that. We have been producing Bitcoin at lower cost 883 01:15:16,218 --> 01:15:23,078 than the PubCos, which is great. And one of the points that I can make about that, because we are 884 01:15:23,078 --> 01:15:30,838 running profitably, we are not driving dilution and issuing equity to be able to subsidize the 885 01:15:30,838 --> 01:15:38,718 mining, which it does seem like many of the Pubcos are doing. As a result, you know, we're hyper 886 01:15:38,718 --> 01:15:46,278 focused on efficiency and automation. And, you know, we started January 2023 with our first 887 01:15:46,278 --> 01:15:53,118 mining rigs in the market after a year of building our software. And we are now three, we've finished 888 01:15:53,118 --> 01:15:59,278 three years and working on our fourth year of mining. And we've gone from 11 staff when we 889 01:15:59,278 --> 01:16:05,638 started to 14 at this moment and have nearly 4,000 mining rates under management. So I would 890 01:16:05,638 --> 01:16:10,798 say we're going the right direction to be able to create a scalable model. And that just simply 891 01:16:10,798 --> 01:16:19,298 has not existed in our space where you write, you either going to self-mine and you're going to need 892 01:16:19,298 --> 01:16:24,458 to raise massive amounts of capital, or you're going to go the traditional hosting route, which 893 01:16:24,458 --> 01:16:30,098 is marking up hardware and or electricity and not being in line with what your clients 894 01:16:30,098 --> 01:16:32,478 are actually after, which is Bitcoin acquisition. 895 01:16:32,798 --> 01:16:38,578 So we're finding what we believe is a third path here to be able to deliver what the market 896 01:16:38,578 --> 01:16:43,138 actually wants while also reducing the cost of capital to scale. 897 01:16:44,838 --> 01:16:50,518 And do you think that you'd be able to convince other players to adopt this approach? 898 01:16:50,758 --> 01:16:54,358 I mean, the best way to convince someone is to show them that it's more profitable. 899 01:16:54,458 --> 01:16:58,018 But right now it sounds like it's just SaaS mining that's doing it. 900 01:16:59,598 --> 01:17:06,918 Because we would need this to scale across the industry to break this cycle of inevitability, right? 901 01:17:08,278 --> 01:17:08,838 Correct. 902 01:17:09,818 --> 01:17:13,858 And we are on a good trajectory to be able to prove that. 903 01:17:14,058 --> 01:17:18,998 And I agree with your point that we have to prove that before anybody else adopts it. 904 01:17:18,998 --> 01:17:27,698 The thing that makes it difficult is traditional hosting providers come from infrastructure. 905 01:17:28,178 --> 01:17:29,338 They don't come from tech. 906 01:17:30,098 --> 01:17:33,618 We're coming from tech into infrastructure. 907 01:17:33,978 --> 01:17:38,038 And those are two different ways of seeing the world. 908 01:17:38,158 --> 01:17:43,178 And so as a result, you have kind of how I think of Web 1.0 versus Web 2.0. 909 01:17:43,178 --> 01:17:48,758 If you were around during the Web 1.0 days, it wasn't a very good user experience online. 910 01:17:48,998 --> 01:17:51,878 It was basically brick and mortar trying to be recreated. 911 01:17:52,378 --> 01:18:01,298 And it wasn't until Web 2 where we use Internet native ways to do commerce that adoption really picked up for the Internet. 912 01:18:02,078 --> 01:18:15,278 I'd like to think that that's the similar analogy to traditional hosting versus what we're bringing in to the market with more of a Web 2 approach so we can unlock that scale and growth. 913 01:18:15,278 --> 01:18:23,298 And the real challenge coming from the infrastructure side is you actually need software developers if you want to be able to do a rev share model. 914 01:18:23,458 --> 01:18:24,778 There's just no other way to do that. 915 01:18:25,258 --> 01:18:28,438 You need to be able to code and deal with APIs. 916 01:18:29,118 --> 01:18:33,018 And that's not the skill set of most traditional hosting players. 917 01:18:36,498 --> 01:18:37,018 Yeah. 918 01:18:37,578 --> 01:18:43,118 So let's talk about a related term that sort of comes from this model. 919 01:18:43,118 --> 01:18:55,038 I think I've heard you use the term wild sats in the context of the schism and just sort of trying to bring things back into order. 920 01:18:55,858 --> 01:18:57,458 And it's a great term, right? 921 01:18:58,518 --> 01:19:06,718 When I think of wild sats, it's foraged as opposed to packaged and given to you, fully KYC'd. 922 01:19:07,918 --> 01:19:12,818 So for folks unfamiliar, talk about what you mean when you say wild sats. 923 01:19:13,118 --> 01:19:18,978 I think you nailed it with that explanation. 924 01:19:19,558 --> 01:19:28,718 It's really the difference between being hashpunk versus KYC'd up out there, right? 925 01:19:28,718 --> 01:19:35,398 So when you mine, all you need is hardware, electricity, and an internet connection, and you'll be able to generate your own Bitcoin. 926 01:19:35,658 --> 01:19:37,658 And it's distributed directly from the network. 927 01:19:37,658 --> 01:19:44,238 So the banking surveillance state is not a part of that relationship with your SATs. 928 01:19:44,618 --> 01:19:45,618 And so therefore, they're wild. 929 01:19:46,018 --> 01:19:48,078 They're right off the network. 930 01:19:48,618 --> 01:20:00,678 And interestingly, the second order consequence of that is that we see more of our customers actually using their SATs because they don't feel like there's a surveillance apparatus attached to them. 931 01:20:00,678 --> 01:20:03,938 for the same reason if you walk into a room, 932 01:20:04,498 --> 01:20:06,558 maybe you don't notice there's a camera in it, 933 01:20:06,638 --> 01:20:09,918 and you feel pretty free, and then you look up in the corner, 934 01:20:10,038 --> 01:20:14,718 and oh, there's a camera, and all of a sudden your body stature shifts 935 01:20:14,718 --> 01:20:16,638 as you realize you're being observed. 936 01:20:16,638 --> 01:20:18,898 I think the same applies to our SATs. 937 01:20:19,758 --> 01:20:22,318 So when they're generated wild off the network, 938 01:20:22,598 --> 01:20:24,958 the way you use them is different. 939 01:20:27,418 --> 01:20:28,098 Oh, yeah. 940 01:20:28,098 --> 01:20:33,638 and then you submarine swap them into lightning and then that yeah you can do all sorts of fun 941 01:20:33,638 --> 01:20:40,618 stuff once you have that you don't even need to if they're wild right yeah yeah no it's uh we have 942 01:20:40,618 --> 01:20:46,858 i mean what we tell our clients is look we don't um we need to be able to talk to you as a customer 943 01:20:46,858 --> 01:20:54,758 right so whatever you give us for communication that's where if we were subpoenaed we'd have to 944 01:20:54,758 --> 01:21:12,012 give over but we don care And we have a surprising number of people that call themselves none of your business That great So actually let me on the surveillance piece on and the wild sats can can 945 01:21:13,092 --> 01:21:20,152 I mean, a transaction can be the sats that come out of the the Coinbase, right? 946 01:21:20,152 --> 01:21:26,092 transaction, they can be tracked to the, obviously be tracked to the block, which means you're going 947 01:21:26,092 --> 01:21:33,732 to know which mining pool won that block, but you're not necessarily going to know where the 948 01:21:33,732 --> 01:21:38,652 hash rate came from. It could have come from anywhere, right? So if it's a block that Ocean 949 01:21:38,652 --> 01:21:45,692 won, no one's going to know who got the reward, right? 950 01:21:45,692 --> 01:21:55,492 there may be with ocean a way to tie that back uh to us i i can't see it um but ocean accounts 951 01:21:55,492 --> 01:22:02,792 are defined by bitcoin addresses right so that is the account name is your bitcoin address so if 952 01:22:02,792 --> 01:22:09,012 somehow that that could be associated with their platform then somebody the state could come to us 953 01:22:09,012 --> 01:22:14,212 and say give me all the information about this account we'd have to uh but i think that's a hard 954 01:22:14,212 --> 01:22:25,052 link to make. And then Luxor runs on more of a traditional FPPS sub-account. So yeah, we'd have 955 01:22:25,052 --> 01:22:31,272 to give whatever information we have related to that sub-account. But it's a tenuous link to make. 956 01:22:32,272 --> 01:22:39,252 And I don't see that it's all that likely to be done. Now that said, I mean, there could be 957 01:22:39,252 --> 01:22:45,572 regulatory change that comes at some point and forces us to have to to kyc you know we just moved 958 01:22:45,572 --> 01:22:50,732 our headquarters to wyoming and maybe we choose to incorporate there in the future i mean we're 959 01:22:50,732 --> 01:22:59,372 very uh bitcoin or privacy focused and want to continue to drive that um that angle because we 960 01:22:59,372 --> 01:23:05,672 know that acquiring sats discreetly is a massive benefit one of the primary drivers for why people 961 01:23:05,672 --> 01:23:07,832 sign up to SAS mining in the first place. 962 01:23:10,852 --> 01:23:11,412 Yeah. 963 01:23:11,892 --> 01:23:13,672 So this mining 964 01:23:13,672 --> 01:23:15,772 side of getting SAS, 965 01:23:15,852 --> 01:23:17,832 the wild SAS, absolutely fascinating concept. 966 01:23:18,192 --> 01:23:19,912 Topic I don't spend enough 967 01:23:19,912 --> 01:23:21,632 time looking into. 968 01:23:21,812 --> 01:23:23,572 Because I'm just, right now I'm thinking 969 01:23:23,572 --> 01:23:25,512 I wonder if one of the 970 01:23:25,512 --> 01:23:27,552 inadvertent side effects of FAPS 971 01:23:27,552 --> 01:23:29,652 is that it acts as a custodial mixer 972 01:23:29,652 --> 01:23:30,292 of sorts. 973 01:23:31,472 --> 01:23:33,652 So maybe you won't even be able to 974 01:23:33,652 --> 01:23:34,512 trace the hash rate 975 01:23:34,512 --> 01:23:42,712 back to the ASIC that generated it, 976 01:23:42,812 --> 01:23:44,692 or the set of ASICs that generated it. 977 01:23:44,792 --> 01:23:46,332 Yeah, it's fascinating stuff. 978 01:23:46,352 --> 01:23:47,932 Yeah, I mean, with Luxor, 979 01:23:47,992 --> 01:23:49,372 we have no idea the mining rig 980 01:23:49,372 --> 01:23:51,072 that is generating the blocks. 981 01:23:51,392 --> 01:23:52,792 We just, we don't know. 982 01:23:53,212 --> 01:23:54,072 With Ocean, we do. 983 01:23:54,572 --> 01:23:56,632 And we share that with our clients. 984 01:23:57,092 --> 01:23:58,972 You know, if they were the lucky miner, 985 01:23:58,972 --> 01:24:01,572 we found eight blocks so far with Ocean, 986 01:24:01,712 --> 01:24:02,392 which is pretty cool. 987 01:24:02,872 --> 01:24:03,932 Every time we get one of those, 988 01:24:03,932 --> 01:24:08,572 the entire team celebrates and it's nice to see our name in the MIM pool. 989 01:24:10,152 --> 01:24:14,332 But it's, yeah, it's tenuous at best is how I currently look at it. 990 01:24:16,312 --> 01:24:20,232 So let's talk about mining concentration, right? 991 01:24:20,332 --> 01:24:23,752 And I'm talking specifically about pools now. 992 01:24:24,832 --> 01:24:28,132 And I mean, that's a topic that keeps coming up. 993 01:24:28,132 --> 01:24:33,412 Even if you're a Bitcoin who's not that plugged into the mining world, 994 01:24:33,412 --> 01:24:37,492 this keeps coming up, right? Which is you have Antpool and you have all of these 995 01:24:37,492 --> 01:24:43,552 pools that have, what is it? It's over 50% at this point, right? From a related 996 01:24:43,552 --> 01:24:57,972 group of miners. How concerned are you about that? And what do you think SaaS mining is doing 997 01:24:57,972 --> 01:25:02,612 to fix it? And what can just regular people do to address that? 998 01:25:03,412 --> 01:25:13,932 man i wish i had a better solution uh to offer but i think it's proof of work is the simple 999 01:25:13,932 --> 01:25:20,872 answer so while we were talking i just pulled it up and you know you can go to the learn.brains.com 1000 01:25:20,872 --> 01:25:26,032 and see exactly what the the market share is of each of the mining pools and foundry and ample 1001 01:25:26,032 --> 01:25:32,792 right now total 53 percent of all the hash rate on the network and that doesn't count all the 1002 01:25:32,792 --> 01:25:39,312 proxies that amp pool has out there uh so when you add that on boy we're we're on the point where 1003 01:25:39,312 --> 01:25:45,292 we've got uh two throats to choke and the bitcoin network could be forced to uh double spend 1004 01:25:45,292 --> 01:25:51,332 thankfully one's in the east and one's in the west right so that is nice um i think there's 1005 01:25:51,332 --> 01:25:58,852 two things that you can do as bitcoiners one um because most of the pubcos go through foundry 1006 01:25:58,852 --> 01:26:00,432 because of the KYC. 1007 01:26:00,752 --> 01:26:02,732 I think don't support the PubCos 1008 01:26:02,732 --> 01:26:06,012 if you're worried about that 35% market share 1009 01:26:06,012 --> 01:26:08,492 that Foundry has, right? 1010 01:26:08,612 --> 01:26:09,772 So vote with your dollars. 1011 01:26:11,092 --> 01:26:13,032 The other thing that can be done 1012 01:26:13,032 --> 01:26:15,252 is to participate with mining. 1013 01:26:15,612 --> 01:26:16,992 You know, every bit of hash rate 1014 01:26:16,992 --> 01:26:18,652 that you are generating, 1015 01:26:18,832 --> 01:26:19,912 I can promise you is not, 1016 01:26:20,132 --> 01:26:21,272 you're not going to choose 1017 01:26:21,272 --> 01:26:23,092 to go through AmpPool and Foundry, right? 1018 01:26:23,172 --> 01:26:24,452 So it's incremental, 1019 01:26:24,792 --> 01:26:27,612 but enough of us begins to sway things. 1020 01:26:28,852 --> 01:26:40,332 But past those two things, you know, I don't know really what more can be done at this point to help this situation. 1021 01:26:40,892 --> 01:26:45,472 I will say Antpool, if you don't know this, is a Bitmain subsidiary. 1022 01:26:46,492 --> 01:26:50,432 And Bitmain is the 900-pound gorilla in the mining room, right? 1023 01:26:50,432 --> 01:26:53,972 They produce 70-plus percent of all the hardware. 1024 01:26:54,872 --> 01:26:57,532 They self-mine if they can't sell. 1025 01:26:58,852 --> 01:27:03,312 You know, they've got all this hash rate that they're managing through AmpPool. 1026 01:27:04,112 --> 01:27:07,472 At some point, we have to figure out how to decentralize that. 1027 01:27:07,472 --> 01:27:14,212 I know the SHA-256 Foundation, you know, the open source mining community is really working hard at this. 1028 01:27:14,352 --> 01:27:16,152 So there's efforts underway. 1029 01:27:17,092 --> 01:27:24,192 However, it's very much a David versus Goliath situation to break up the current situation. 1030 01:27:24,192 --> 01:27:32,912 And this is where I think we're experiencing the consequences of going the easy route and buying instead of mining. 1031 01:27:33,392 --> 01:27:48,412 Because the simple argument I would make, and I don't have a counterfactual to share with people, but I would argue if the Bitcoin community chose to use mining as its primary vehicle for acquiring Bitcoin, we would not be in this situation. 1032 01:27:48,412 --> 01:28:13,832 So that's, I was kind of going to go there, Kent, because you're talking about the popcos just going to Foundry or just going to the easiest one, because maybe they like FVPS, right? Maybe they just, well, they're not cypherpunks. That's the fundamental problem, right? They're not, quote unquote, real Bitcoiners. 1033 01:28:13,832 --> 01:28:15,492 they're public 1034 01:28:15,492 --> 01:28:16,072 most of them 1035 01:28:16,072 --> 01:28:16,792 I mean 1036 01:28:16,792 --> 01:28:17,652 we're saying PopCost 1037 01:28:17,652 --> 01:28:18,612 they are publicly traded 1038 01:28:18,612 --> 01:28:20,832 so they're fiat companies 1039 01:28:20,832 --> 01:28:22,112 and I wonder 1040 01:28:22,112 --> 01:28:23,472 if you 1041 01:28:23,472 --> 01:28:24,512 through SaaS Mining 1042 01:28:24,512 --> 01:28:25,692 can prove to them 1043 01:28:25,692 --> 01:28:27,112 that your model 1044 01:28:27,112 --> 01:28:28,332 is more profitable 1045 01:28:28,332 --> 01:28:30,952 is better 1046 01:28:30,952 --> 01:28:32,032 then 1047 01:28:32,032 --> 01:28:33,852 if that would lead them 1048 01:28:33,852 --> 01:28:34,052 to 1049 01:28:34,052 --> 01:28:35,772 for the PopCost 1050 01:28:35,772 --> 01:28:37,192 to actually become Bitcoiners 1051 01:28:37,192 --> 01:28:37,852 as a result 1052 01:28:37,852 --> 01:28:38,372 right 1053 01:28:38,372 --> 01:28:40,752 move to a Bitcoin standard 1054 01:28:40,752 --> 01:28:41,472 stop thinking 1055 01:28:41,472 --> 01:28:42,292 in terms of fiat 1056 01:28:42,292 --> 01:28:45,392 and if they did, they would understand Bitcoin better. 1057 01:28:45,872 --> 01:28:47,952 And once they understand Bitcoin better, 1058 01:28:48,112 --> 01:28:49,032 there's no way they would, 1059 01:28:49,792 --> 01:28:51,812 I mean, they would protect themselves 1060 01:28:51,812 --> 01:28:54,952 by not centralizing to Foundry and Antpool 1061 01:28:54,952 --> 01:28:56,392 and all the proxies. 1062 01:28:57,112 --> 01:28:59,412 Is that, I mean, that could work, right? 1063 01:28:59,412 --> 01:29:02,752 Or is that too much of a sort of a fairytale outcome? 1064 01:29:03,972 --> 01:29:05,572 I think, unfortunately, it's the latter. 1065 01:29:06,072 --> 01:29:07,132 I like it. 1066 01:29:07,372 --> 01:29:09,712 I would like to tell you that that would work, 1067 01:29:09,832 --> 01:29:11,192 but I just don't see it. 1068 01:29:11,192 --> 01:29:26,652 The fundamental reason why is because they have, and you actually may know better than I coming from a quant background, but the pack they have with their investors is to return more dollars than they took for their investors. 1069 01:29:26,932 --> 01:29:28,452 Like that's why investors invest. 1070 01:29:28,952 --> 01:29:39,552 So unless they change their fundamental charter with investors to return Bitcoin, I don't see how that dynamic changes, even if it is more profitable, so to speak. 1071 01:29:39,552 --> 01:29:45,672 and I think the more likely outcome, 1072 01:29:45,972 --> 01:29:47,332 which is a good one for us, 1073 01:29:47,372 --> 01:29:49,852 is this pivot to AI and HPC 1074 01:29:49,852 --> 01:29:51,552 that we're seeing many of the hub goes to 1075 01:29:51,552 --> 01:29:54,272 because they see that they can get more dollars 1076 01:29:54,272 --> 01:29:56,132 that direction and they are. 1077 01:29:56,652 --> 01:29:58,992 I mean, geez, it was sort of shocking for me 1078 01:29:58,992 --> 01:30:03,912 to see the CEO of Biff Farms 1079 01:30:03,912 --> 01:30:05,272 just come straight out and say, 1080 01:30:05,512 --> 01:30:07,472 we are not a Bitcoin company, right? 1081 01:30:07,472 --> 01:30:14,972 any longer. So I just think the mask is off and they're making this pivot. I've got other thoughts 1082 01:30:14,972 --> 01:30:20,012 about that pivot. I question how well it'll go for them, but I think it presents a unique 1083 01:30:20,012 --> 01:30:25,052 opportunity. And I think a lot of us in the industry think that hash rate is going to be 1084 01:30:25,052 --> 01:30:31,232 different this year as a result of this pivot. I don't think that we're going to see the dramatic 1085 01:30:31,232 --> 01:30:36,192 hash rate increase that we have in the past. And that presents an opportunity for the Bitcoin 1086 01:30:36,192 --> 01:30:44,532 community to seize seize the wheel and and and take more ownership and i think we need to uh i 1087 01:30:44,532 --> 01:30:54,512 think you know we can't um it's it's time for uh the heat the the excuse me the hash punks to 1088 01:30:54,512 --> 01:31:01,532 show up and and push off the fiat hashers so we've been i've actually never thought about this 1089 01:31:01,532 --> 01:31:08,752 this week and with yet another reason why AI and Bitcoin are complementary for reasons no one would 1090 01:31:08,752 --> 01:31:17,892 expect or certainly I wouldn't expect which is inadvertently AI is because by being this 1091 01:31:17,892 --> 01:31:24,932 the new shiny object all of these fiat pubcos are directing their attention there which is 1092 01:31:24,932 --> 01:31:26,692 effectively opened the door 1093 01:31:26,692 --> 01:31:27,712 perhaps 1094 01:31:27,712 --> 01:31:30,492 once in a decade opportunity 1095 01:31:30,492 --> 01:31:32,712 for the hash punks, for the 1096 01:31:32,712 --> 01:31:34,152 cypher punks, for people who actually 1097 01:31:34,152 --> 01:31:36,672 give a crap and are not 1098 01:31:36,672 --> 01:31:37,992 distracted by 1099 01:31:37,992 --> 01:31:40,632 the treasury companies or whatever 1100 01:31:40,632 --> 01:31:42,692 the other shiny objects are 1101 01:31:42,692 --> 01:31:44,752 to say, you know what, let's take 1102 01:31:44,752 --> 01:31:45,332 back control. 1103 01:31:46,612 --> 01:31:48,912 It looked like it was out of our hands 1104 01:31:48,912 --> 01:31:50,672 because these pubcos are too big, 1105 01:31:50,672 --> 01:31:52,732 they control too much 1106 01:31:52,732 --> 01:31:53,432 of the hash rate, 1107 01:31:53,432 --> 01:31:56,472 or they're producing too much of the hash rate. 1108 01:31:58,292 --> 01:31:59,272 Let's just step in. 1109 01:31:59,532 --> 01:32:02,472 I don't know if it's going to be the Bitaxe army 1110 01:32:02,472 --> 01:32:04,232 that pulls together and does it. 1111 01:32:04,392 --> 01:32:05,292 Probably not. 1112 01:32:06,232 --> 01:32:07,172 But maybe something else. 1113 01:32:07,452 --> 01:32:09,412 Maybe it's this... 1114 01:32:09,412 --> 01:32:13,852 What about the Block miner that was... 1115 01:32:13,852 --> 01:32:15,872 I don't think they actually released a real thing, right? 1116 01:32:15,912 --> 01:32:16,812 It was more a prototype. 1117 01:32:17,672 --> 01:32:19,332 Do you see the thing that came out from Block? 1118 01:32:19,612 --> 01:32:21,252 Like, what is that, three, four months ago? 1119 01:32:22,112 --> 01:32:25,392 Yeah, I think the community is largely still holding their breath. 1120 01:32:25,492 --> 01:32:34,532 I understand that there's some of those proto miners in the field and being tested. 1121 01:32:35,472 --> 01:32:42,352 I don't know that it changes the dynamic completely because there's a couple dynamics, right? 1122 01:32:42,552 --> 01:32:47,552 There's the mining pool centralization and then there's the supply chain centralization. 1123 01:32:47,552 --> 01:33:08,192 I think that the proto-miner helps with the supply chain side, but not so much the mining pool centralization that's going on. And you were right, I don't see the BIDACs community as really going to be the ones that change the distribution of hash rate on the network. 1124 01:33:08,192 --> 01:33:15,452 I think that more likely is just the heat punk movement, if you're familiar with that, right? 1125 01:33:15,512 --> 01:33:22,472 The folks that are figuring out ways to utilize heat from their mining rigs, mining at home, to justify mining at home. 1126 01:33:22,572 --> 01:33:23,472 I think that that's one. 1127 01:33:24,672 --> 01:33:35,892 I think platforms like ours is another because it makes it accessible to people to deploy capital and get great valued Bitcoin. 1128 01:33:35,892 --> 01:33:38,792 Bitcoin below secondary market price. 1129 01:33:40,832 --> 01:33:53,586 But outside of those two yeah I don And just more Bitcoiners going into big scale mining themselves you know like the Bob Burnett of barefoot miners of the world you know the upstream 1130 01:33:54,586 --> 01:34:01,226 You know, there are Bitcoiners in mining, so it's not that there's none, but getting more of us into it. 1131 01:34:01,226 --> 01:34:10,286 And frankly, I think the biggest thing that's going to change all this, I'm convinced, Avi, that there's going to be an ending of the buy phase. 1132 01:34:10,286 --> 01:34:19,126 And that will then thrust us into the earn phase of the market for how we adopt and acquire Bitcoin. 1133 01:34:19,926 --> 01:34:24,186 And in that earn phase, there's a better way to earn your Bitcoin than to mine it. 1134 01:34:25,066 --> 01:34:30,186 And when that comes about, you know, hopefully SaaS mining is well positioned for that time. 1135 01:34:31,226 --> 01:34:34,766 But I think that's when we're in a bit of a different reality. 1136 01:34:35,446 --> 01:34:41,066 And I think the transition to blue-collar work will continue to pick up speed. 1137 01:34:42,546 --> 01:34:46,986 I mean, really, there are three ways of acquiring Bitcoin, right? 1138 01:34:47,006 --> 01:34:49,386 You convert energy into Bitcoin, mining. 1139 01:34:49,726 --> 01:34:53,226 You convert labor into Bitcoin, actually earning it. 1140 01:34:53,226 --> 01:34:56,486 And then you convert fiat into Bitcoin, which is the exchange stuff. 1141 01:34:56,486 --> 01:35:04,626 And I think it's fair to say the first two are far better methods of acquiring Bitcoin than the last one. 1142 01:35:06,506 --> 01:35:07,766 Yeah, I like that framing. 1143 01:35:08,586 --> 01:35:11,846 I might reutilize that, Avi. 1144 01:35:11,966 --> 01:35:12,406 Thank you. 1145 01:35:13,526 --> 01:35:15,226 Hey, you gave me the bifurcation. 1146 01:35:15,426 --> 01:35:18,726 I gave you my – I've been actually using this for a while. 1147 01:35:18,806 --> 01:35:24,346 I'm surprised no one else – you're the first one who said you're going to use it because I've been saying this for a while now. 1148 01:35:24,346 --> 01:35:31,466 um it's different forms of energy right it's uh if you're gonna convert your your labor then it's 1149 01:35:31,466 --> 01:35:37,426 your own physical energy uh versus if you're converting you know mining is direct energy 1150 01:35:37,426 --> 01:35:43,026 versus your energy through labor and then if you're talking about exchanging your dollars well it's 1151 01:35:43,026 --> 01:35:49,586 dollars have been uh one of the first exchange uh for energy that you made right that's your 1152 01:35:49,586 --> 01:35:52,286 effort to generate those dollars. 1153 01:35:52,686 --> 01:35:54,526 So it's almost like you're just 1154 01:35:54,526 --> 01:35:56,586 cutting out a step if you're using either your 1155 01:35:56,586 --> 01:35:57,506 energy or 1156 01:35:57,506 --> 01:36:00,586 an energy source to get 1157 01:36:00,586 --> 01:36:02,566 your Bitcoin. Sovereign energy 1158 01:36:02,566 --> 01:36:03,866 source, preferably. 1159 01:36:04,906 --> 01:36:05,426 There we go. 1160 01:36:07,446 --> 01:36:08,486 So is there 1161 01:36:08,486 --> 01:36:10,046 a risk here, Kent? 1162 01:36:10,566 --> 01:36:12,546 Because the way you've laid this 1163 01:36:12,546 --> 01:36:12,926 out, 1164 01:36:14,286 --> 01:36:14,546 I mean, 1165 01:36:15,006 --> 01:36:18,206 the model you've laid out, to me, 1166 01:36:18,206 --> 01:36:24,466 unambiguously means we need this type of sovereign mining. 1167 01:36:24,746 --> 01:36:26,146 Well, actually, sovereign is a bit of, 1168 01:36:26,226 --> 01:36:30,466 or at least the mining model that you've laid out is the right one. 1169 01:36:30,606 --> 01:36:32,826 But essentially, you become the AWS at that point. 1170 01:36:33,586 --> 01:36:36,286 You need to be, SaaS mining needs to be successful 1171 01:36:36,286 --> 01:36:39,406 so that we, this schism that we had, 1172 01:36:39,406 --> 01:36:42,306 maybe we come back, the two sides come back together. 1173 01:36:42,306 --> 01:36:47,426 but the risk there is 1174 01:36:47,426 --> 01:36:50,146 SaaS mining becomes Amazon 1175 01:36:50,146 --> 01:36:52,886 and at some point 1176 01:36:52,886 --> 01:36:56,386 you will have a tap on your shoulder 1177 01:36:56,386 --> 01:36:59,806 and some bureaucrat is going to say 1178 01:36:59,806 --> 01:37:01,586 you're voted off the board 1179 01:37:01,586 --> 01:37:03,006 and we're going to do what we do 1180 01:37:03,006 --> 01:37:04,906 because we're too big now 1181 01:37:04,906 --> 01:37:06,066 to leave the decision making 1182 01:37:06,066 --> 01:37:07,626 in the hands of just one person 1183 01:37:07,626 --> 01:37:09,106 one idealistic person 1184 01:37:09,106 --> 01:37:17,246 you're getting to what keeps me up at night i mean um because yes i think you're probably the 1185 01:37:17,246 --> 01:37:22,066 first person i've talked to that uh that has put that together because that that does worry me 1186 01:37:22,066 --> 01:37:29,706 um and how do i uh not necessarily decentralize the organization but how do i mitigate that i 1187 01:37:29,706 --> 01:37:37,266 don't have good answers uh what i do know though is that there's no way uh to scale mining for 1188 01:37:37,266 --> 01:37:43,486 the average person without somebody like SAS mining existing, because you need access to 1189 01:37:43,486 --> 01:37:50,146 low cost energy to make it, uh, to make the value proposition viable to scale in the first place, 1190 01:37:50,146 --> 01:37:55,966 which means that I actually look at our business, uh, not even as a minor or service provider, 1191 01:37:55,966 --> 01:38:02,786 so much as a rig custodian, um, if you will. And there's no way for me to have possession 1192 01:38:02,786 --> 01:38:09,446 of your equipment without that being a high trust relationship, which is why I focused on the 1193 01:38:09,446 --> 01:38:14,746 alignment of incentives and we continue to focus on better and better transparency. 1194 01:38:15,586 --> 01:38:23,026 But in the long run, how do I ensure that the governance of SaaS mining can't be co-opted? 1195 01:38:23,026 --> 01:38:31,466 And I don't know. I'm not at a scale or size where that's a real issue. And as I get closer 1196 01:38:31,466 --> 01:38:39,186 to that, I will be putting more energy and effort to trying to sort that out. Perhaps that's, 1197 01:38:39,806 --> 01:38:44,426 you know, just off the cuff, like different entities spun out in different jurisdictions, 1198 01:38:44,426 --> 01:38:50,266 making the entity distribution itself decentralized. I don't know. But certainly, 1199 01:38:50,646 --> 01:38:55,186 there's something to be said for the community I'm in that is smarter than me and can figure it 1200 01:38:55,186 --> 01:39:01,366 out, right? Here we are streaming on Noster. I'm certain that we'll find a solution when we get 1201 01:39:01,366 --> 01:39:09,766 there. Yeah. Let's hope so, Kent. Well, first of all, I hope you're wildly successful, continue to 1202 01:39:09,766 --> 01:39:16,446 be wildly successful with SaaS mining. And more importantly, I hope you figure out a way of 1203 01:39:16,446 --> 01:39:22,386 decentralizing that success somehow so that you don't become the guy who gets the tap on the 1204 01:39:22,386 --> 01:39:31,226 shoulder. And then it's the end of the story at that point. Yeah, you and me both. And 1205 01:39:31,226 --> 01:39:34,006 And I think there is a path. 1206 01:39:34,586 --> 01:39:37,866 I'm just not sure what it is, but where there's a will, there's a way. 1207 01:39:38,406 --> 01:39:44,426 And everything that we've done here at SAS Mining is to line up with the ethos of the Bitcoin network. 1208 01:39:44,726 --> 01:39:48,366 And we'll continue to do so, including the decentralization side. 1209 01:39:48,726 --> 01:39:53,066 Just not at a scale yet where we've got the ability to tackle it. 1210 01:39:53,766 --> 01:39:54,906 But give us a year or two. 1211 01:39:55,326 --> 01:39:56,146 We'll figure it out. 1212 01:39:58,246 --> 01:39:58,726 Great. 1213 01:39:58,726 --> 01:40:20,646 So, Kent, anything, you know, we've covered a lot of topics and I suspect I have actually have a few more questions that I jotted down, but that'll keep us going for another hour or two, which, you know, typically podcasts, the right length I found is somewhere between the one and a half hour mark and the two hour mark. 1214 01:40:21,166 --> 01:40:24,506 Probably it's closer to the one and a half than the two. 1215 01:40:24,926 --> 01:40:26,006 So I think we're there. 1216 01:40:26,006 --> 01:40:33,026 But any sort of last thing, anything we've missed that you think it's important for folks to hear from you? 1217 01:40:36,906 --> 01:40:47,846 Yeah, I think that we are at a critical cultural moment for Bitcoin. 1218 01:40:47,846 --> 01:41:02,466 What I mean by that is we're at an inflection point where the early Bitcoin community gelled and, you know, the last cycle, there's a very strong culture of like what Bitcoin is. 1219 01:41:02,466 --> 01:41:12,826 And I think we've got a risk of basically just turning into, as the Bitcoin community, a bunch of ledger squatters, for lack of a better word. 1220 01:41:12,826 --> 01:41:24,786 And I think if you look back at human history, you know, we're building a separate reality with Bitcoin, right? 1221 01:41:25,146 --> 01:41:34,526 If you move culture over to a different monetary standard, it's going to spring forth a different societal structure, I believe. 1222 01:41:34,526 --> 01:41:37,366 And this is a thousand-year project. 1223 01:41:38,326 --> 01:41:42,786 And I think our community is looking at it with fiat time horizons. 1224 01:41:42,826 --> 01:41:49,786 and that both saddens me and offers an opportunity for us to do better. 1225 01:41:50,206 --> 01:41:52,926 And one of the simple questions I've been asking myself, 1226 01:41:53,026 --> 01:41:54,986 and I'd love to hear more in the community ask, 1227 01:41:54,986 --> 01:41:59,686 is what are the human institutions that have lasted for 1,000 years, 1228 01:42:00,166 --> 01:42:04,946 and what should we be learning from them to make sure that Bitcoin lasts 1,000 years? 1229 01:42:06,946 --> 01:42:07,466 Yeah. 1230 01:42:08,326 --> 01:42:11,726 That is a great question indeed, Kent. 1231 01:42:12,826 --> 01:42:16,466 who are the Medici of our time in some sense, 1232 01:42:18,126 --> 01:42:23,346 who are going to think not in 10-year returns or 20-year returns, 1233 01:42:23,446 --> 01:42:27,186 but going to think about cultures enduring for centuries, 1234 01:42:27,386 --> 01:42:29,406 if not a millennia or more. 1235 01:42:32,186 --> 01:42:34,546 Agreed. This is a multi-generational project, 1236 01:42:34,546 --> 01:42:40,366 and I don't think that our community is putting the guardrails in place 1237 01:42:40,366 --> 01:42:42,166 to protect 1238 01:42:42,166 --> 01:42:44,886 Bitcoin 1239 01:42:44,886 --> 01:42:46,046 in a 1240 01:42:46,046 --> 01:42:47,866 multigenerational way. 1241 01:42:49,406 --> 01:42:50,006 Yeah. 1242 01:42:51,946 --> 01:42:54,586 Well, let's leave it at that, 1243 01:42:55,346 --> 01:42:55,586 Kent. 1244 01:42:55,946 --> 01:42:57,466 You've thrown down the gauntlet. 1245 01:42:57,866 --> 01:43:00,386 So folks, you heard it here. 1246 01:43:00,926 --> 01:43:01,986 What are you doing 1247 01:43:01,986 --> 01:43:04,166 to think multigenerationally? 1248 01:43:05,166 --> 01:43:06,606 Thank you for your time, Kent. 1249 01:43:07,026 --> 01:43:07,806 This has been great. 1250 01:43:08,286 --> 01:43:09,566 Learned a lot about 1251 01:43:09,566 --> 01:43:11,026 what you're building. 1252 01:43:12,146 --> 01:43:13,666 Learn some new things, actually. 1253 01:43:14,046 --> 01:43:14,746 New perspectives. 1254 01:43:15,026 --> 01:43:16,346 So I appreciate you sharing those. 1255 01:43:17,926 --> 01:43:18,986 Yeah, you're very welcome. 1256 01:43:19,146 --> 01:43:20,346 It's been a pleasure to be on here. 1257 01:43:20,806 --> 01:43:24,506 And, you know, I think just to leave it 1258 01:43:24,506 --> 01:43:26,186 on a slightly more optimistic note, 1259 01:43:26,686 --> 01:43:28,526 you know, the one thing that I do see 1260 01:43:28,526 --> 01:43:31,386 is that Bitcoiners as a community 1261 01:43:31,386 --> 01:43:34,006 are the most grounded in our society right now, 1262 01:43:34,706 --> 01:43:37,606 which is incredibly encouraging 1263 01:43:37,606 --> 01:43:44,546 for me having small children to know that, you know, the wisdom that we've accrued through the 1264 01:43:44,546 --> 01:43:52,606 generations will continue to be passed down by nobody else, but by our community. So I'm very 1265 01:43:52,606 --> 01:43:59,026 grateful to be part of this community and grateful to have you on here, Avi, and thank you for giving 1266 01:43:59,026 --> 01:44:05,786 me some new ways to language some of the ideas that I try to express. So great conversation and 1267 01:44:05,786 --> 01:44:06,966 wish you the best. 1268 01:44:07,806 --> 01:44:16,126 Of course, a much better reframing there, Kent. I like that. So thank you, Kent. And thank you to 1269 01:44:16,126 --> 01:44:21,386 our live stream audience for listening and for your zaps. If you are listening to the recording, 1270 01:44:21,586 --> 01:44:27,166 as always, notice what you didn't hear today. You didn't hear me shilling a mattress you don't need, 1271 01:44:27,166 --> 01:44:32,926 and you didn't hear me reading a script for a VPN that's probably logging your data anyway. 1272 01:44:32,926 --> 01:44:34,706 I don't do that here. 1273 01:44:35,346 --> 01:44:39,166 On the lightning-laced airwaves, the only sponsor is you. 1274 01:44:39,526 --> 01:44:44,286 If you found value in this conversation, if it gave you a new mental model, 1275 01:44:44,466 --> 01:44:47,686 a moment of clarity, or just respite from the noise, 1276 01:44:48,146 --> 01:44:50,106 then please consider returning the value. 1277 01:44:50,606 --> 01:44:54,826 You can stream sats as you listen on your favorite podcasting 2.0 app, 1278 01:44:55,046 --> 01:44:59,906 or you can become a monthly subscriber to the show on Fountain 1279 01:44:59,906 --> 01:45:02,086 to keep the signal strong. 1280 01:45:02,086 --> 01:45:05,366 You are the producers of this vibe. 1281 01:45:06,206 --> 01:45:11,546 Speaking of producers, the final word goes to the executive producer of this episode, 1282 01:45:12,006 --> 01:45:13,706 the top booster from last week. 1283 01:45:14,026 --> 01:45:18,846 If you want to claim the spot next week and have your message read over the air, 1284 01:45:19,146 --> 01:45:20,106 you know what to do. 1285 01:45:20,626 --> 01:45:22,066 Check that leaderboard. 1286 01:45:22,606 --> 01:45:28,766 This week, the EP chair and final word belongs to last week's guest, 1287 01:45:28,766 --> 01:45:38,266 Richard Greaser coming in with an incredibly generous 33,333 sats and a short message. 1288 01:45:39,046 --> 01:45:46,906 Thanks for having me on, Avi. No, thank you, Mr. Greaser. Thank you for your generosity and for 1289 01:45:46,906 --> 01:45:53,666 your friendship. And for those who want to shape the next show, the mic is open. Whether you want 1290 01:45:53,666 --> 01:45:55,926 to ratify the sermon with your own story 1291 01:45:55,926 --> 01:45:58,886 or rectify it with a counterpoint. 1292 01:45:59,326 --> 01:46:01,826 The executive producer slot is waiting for you. 1293 01:46:02,506 --> 01:46:04,606 The minutes are open for next week. 1294 01:46:05,386 --> 01:46:07,266 Until then, stay sovereign. 1295 01:46:23,666 --> 01:46:28,106 In Coopers