1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,080
Welcome to Pleb Chain Radio, a live show brought to you by Plebs for Plebs, which focuses

2
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,940
on the intersection of NOSTER and Bitcoin protocols.

3
00:00:11,700 --> 00:00:16,680
Join QW and Avi as they run down the weekly news and developments, breaking down the current

4
00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,600
thing and the future frontier with the foundation of decentralization, the builders, thinkers,

5
00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:22,780
doers, and plebs.

6
00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,360
All right, we are live.

7
00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:36,280
Welcome, gentle plebs, to episode number 115 of Pleb Chain Radio.

8
00:00:37,160 --> 00:00:44,120
Today is Thursday, or it's not, today is Friday, the 6th of June, 2025,

9
00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,480
and it is 12.42 p.m. on the east coast of the United States.

10
00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:53,540
At the time of recording, we have a fun show, a packed house.

11
00:00:53,540 --> 00:00:55,680
Stella, Emma,

12
00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:57,840
Liminal, and Chip

13
00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,120
from the Med Scholar,

14
00:01:00,260 --> 00:01:02,060
Alexandria, and Gitz Citadel

15
00:01:02,060 --> 00:01:04,280
team are here with us.

16
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:05,500
And if that was confusing,

17
00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:07,340
I have some good news for you.

18
00:01:07,340 --> 00:01:08,660
Was that English, Javi?

19
00:01:09,740 --> 00:01:11,540
If that was confusing, QW,

20
00:01:11,980 --> 00:01:13,860
the good news is they are right here

21
00:01:13,860 --> 00:01:14,780
with us to explain

22
00:01:14,780 --> 00:01:18,260
exactly how that shakes out.

23
00:01:18,740 --> 00:01:19,860
And a reminder, folks,

24
00:01:19,900 --> 00:01:21,680
if you are listening to this show on

25
00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:23,480
Apple or Spotify, first of all,

26
00:01:23,540 --> 00:01:36,580
Thank you for listening, but I would urge you to switch over to the Fountain Podcasting app, where you can support the Value for Value revolution and earn some sats.

27
00:01:36,780 --> 00:01:49,840
And by the way, you can also subscribe there to support the show, and you will get early access to this episode and exclusive access to our bonus episodes.

28
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,340
This is all, this is a new stuff for us, QW.

29
00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,140
So I'm slipping on my lines, this whole subscription thing.

30
00:01:57,060 --> 00:02:01,400
But in any event, this show is streamed live on zap.stream

31
00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,900
and any other Noster client that supports streaming

32
00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:07,560
such as Amethyst and Noster and QW.

33
00:02:07,820 --> 00:02:10,260
You know, there is no second best Bitcoin conference

34
00:02:10,260 --> 00:02:11,940
because BTC Prague is it.

35
00:02:12,020 --> 00:02:16,020
It is taking place between June 19th and June 21st

36
00:02:16,020 --> 00:02:18,960
in, you guessed it, Prague this year.

37
00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,400
that's just under two weeks away.

38
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:23,720
And you can save some sats

39
00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,640
by using discount code NOSTR,

40
00:02:26,100 --> 00:02:28,820
N-O-S-T-R, 15% off.

41
00:02:29,060 --> 00:02:31,380
If you're paying in sats, 10% off

42
00:02:31,380 --> 00:02:34,180
if you're paying in dirty old fiat.

43
00:02:34,500 --> 00:02:36,340
And for our meme readout today,

44
00:02:36,340 --> 00:02:38,560
Bobby, are you single-handedly

45
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,060
just brute-forcing plebs to Prague

46
00:02:42,060 --> 00:02:43,460
with that promo code?

47
00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:45,300
You know, I will say

48
00:02:45,300 --> 00:02:47,080
there is not that much NOSTR content

49
00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:48,320
in Prague this year,

50
00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:54,560
which is unfortunate. But yes, hopefully this brute forcing effort will pay some dividend.

51
00:02:55,560 --> 00:03:00,760
Don't get rugged over there with no Nostra content. Any side events or anything,

52
00:03:00,980 --> 00:03:07,240
you might have to just brute force that as well. That is true. That is true. For our meme readout

53
00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:13,520
today, KW, it is a single frame meme with a picture of our dear leader in the United States,

54
00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:22,760
President Trump shaking hands with a very robotic and wooden-looking tech CEO, Mark Zuckerberg,

55
00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:32,160
and he's saying to him, your name is Elon now. And QW, you have been paying attention to Bitcoin

56
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,740
and Nostoculture in the last week, although you have been on vacation, so I don't know how much

57
00:03:36,740 --> 00:03:43,460
attention you could have been paying. That said, yeah, I'll be honest, Avi, Montana, Western Montana,

58
00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:51,960
Glacier National Park, all the rivers, the lakes, the trees, the nature. I've never seen more deer

59
00:03:51,960 --> 00:04:00,400
just wandering around in my life. It really, it's a different experience when you kind of

60
00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:06,700
take a week off of tapping into the everyday, you know, because obviously Nostra moves fast.

61
00:04:06,700 --> 00:04:11,080
We always have some kind of cultural event to meme about.

62
00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:19,000
It just, I did not expect to come back to what seemed to be kind of the most polarizing

63
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,940
breakup of all billionaires in the world, right?

64
00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,700
That Elon and Trump deal.

65
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,780
It seems to be kind of overtaking the socials.

66
00:04:28,840 --> 00:04:35,000
I'm just like, man, I kind of want to do another week in Montana until that dies out, right?

67
00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:36,280
Oh, yeah.

68
00:04:36,700 --> 00:04:42,940
So, yeah, another thing that happened while I was gone, which I think is I went and checked it out.

69
00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:54,900
Obviously, we're on ZapDot stream, but Scardust, the prog metal band that we had on a couple weeks ago, a few weeks ago, they've gone full Noster.

70
00:04:55,100 --> 00:04:57,700
They're doing a 24-7 live stream now.

71
00:04:58,060 --> 00:05:00,960
And if you look at it, it's really well done.

72
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,320
I got to think that maybe LeHavre had something to do with it.

73
00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:10,660
but their new album, because we didn't know during our show when that album was going to drop.

74
00:05:10,820 --> 00:05:17,740
It's dropping July 18th. But not only are they doing 24-7 live stream on Zap.Stream,

75
00:05:18,340 --> 00:05:23,000
you have all the links. I mean, it's almost like an advertisement as well.

76
00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:30,920
You know, here's our content. Here's some great videography. And here's all our albums,

77
00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:32,880
or all our socials.

78
00:05:33,380 --> 00:05:34,460
It's interesting.

79
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,240
It's like a billboard in a way,

80
00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:38,840
a visual billboard that you can zap.

81
00:05:39,620 --> 00:05:40,240
I don't know.

82
00:05:40,460 --> 00:05:42,820
I'm not explaining it well enough,

83
00:05:42,940 --> 00:05:46,340
but I recommend anybody go to zap.stream,

84
00:05:46,840 --> 00:05:48,880
check out that 24-7 live stream.

85
00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:50,720
It's pretty neat.

86
00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,020
And even if you're not a huge prog metal person,

87
00:05:54,180 --> 00:05:57,060
you can see the potential beyond all of that.

88
00:05:57,940 --> 00:05:58,920
I love it.

89
00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:00,580
And I like their music.

90
00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:08,140
I think it's a unique experiment in direct band-to-fan interactions.

91
00:06:08,860 --> 00:06:10,180
I'm actually excited.

92
00:06:10,820 --> 00:06:12,720
I don't think we've even scratched the surface

93
00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,160
in what this 24-hour live stream can even mean.

94
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:18,120
So we'll see.

95
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,740
And for a specific band, not, let's say, no good radio

96
00:06:22,740 --> 00:06:25,340
or something where they're constantly just playing

97
00:06:25,340 --> 00:06:29,160
different songs from different soundtracks.

98
00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:34,960
This is a specific official live stream, which is neat.

99
00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,700
The next thing we got coming up, Avi, Nostrebama.

100
00:06:39,260 --> 00:06:41,020
Looks like momentum's moving that way.

101
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,020
I think I'm in a signal chat group where they're talking about all the specifics.

102
00:06:45,340 --> 00:06:50,260
But Nostrebama, Mobile, Alabama, July 14th through the 17th.

103
00:06:50,700 --> 00:06:54,580
I think that's another grassroots deal.

104
00:06:54,580 --> 00:07:01,260
Hopefully there's going to be some sort of a Toonster event or some sort of a live stream that comes out of there for all the global plebs.

105
00:07:01,900 --> 00:07:14,680
And lastly, something I'm excited about because it's kind of a pet project for me, uniting the solo miners, that alliance project that I'm kind of spearheading.

106
00:07:14,820 --> 00:07:23,700
We're up to 82 miners, so 82 workers in our pool, over 800 terahashes second.

107
00:07:23,700 --> 00:07:29,460
So don't be surprised, Avi, if Nostrich is minor block.

108
00:07:29,900 --> 00:07:33,580
So I'm going to do a show on that in a couple weeks, or we will.

109
00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,400
And more to come on that.

110
00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:41,900
But that's kind of my hobby right now, and I'm really into it, decentralizing the hash.

111
00:07:41,900 --> 00:07:58,540
I am looking forward to your merry band of anarchist or rebellious hashers taking on Antpool and via BTC and all those other dangerously centralizing forces.

112
00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,160
I don't know what it is about me.

113
00:08:01,220 --> 00:08:07,780
I'm channeling my Zapathon days of storming the walls of the wallet of Satoshi.

114
00:08:07,780 --> 00:08:11,780
So it's kind of the same energy in myself.

115
00:08:12,780 --> 00:08:16,580
So it's something I, and I can build a community around it or we can.

116
00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:18,240
So it's perfect.

117
00:08:18,740 --> 00:08:20,820
I'm very much enjoying it.

118
00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,680
So who was our top zapper, Avi?

119
00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,120
Our top zapper is a legal entity, QW.

120
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:34,440
A legal entity which presumably has a tax ID and goes by the name of Lightning Store.

121
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:42,260
So I believe you are doing the honors and dissolving those legal walls and going straight to the source.

122
00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,500
You must be talking about my local friend and pleb, Sam.

123
00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:53,120
Sam's the only guy who looked at the entire music industry and thought, needs more math.

124
00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,520
He built lightning stores so punk kids could buy merch with fractions of pennies.

125
00:08:57,660 --> 00:09:02,560
Then cranked out Wavelake so indie drummers can finally earn enough sats to buy earplugs.

126
00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:08,740
Legend has it he can open a lightning channel faster than most people can find the Wi-Fi password.

127
00:09:09,260 --> 00:09:13,040
Yet he still can't open a jar of pickles without asking for multi-sig.

128
00:09:13,580 --> 00:09:18,160
Give him a guitar, a keyboard, or a Raspberry Pi and he'll automate the applause,

129
00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,220
route the tips, and invoice your mom before the encore.

130
00:09:21,740 --> 00:09:23,280
All hail Sam.

131
00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:29,860
Proof that you can be both GarageBand grungy and nerdy stack nerdy while somehow making it look cool.

132
00:09:30,560 --> 00:09:32,000
Sam, I love you buddy.

133
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,120
Let's do lunch soon.

134
00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:34,080
Thanks for the zap.

135
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,540
Thanks for always supporting Pleb Chain Radio.

136
00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,940
Avi and I truly appreciate you.

137
00:09:41,460 --> 00:09:47,920
And anybody listening, hashtag Pleb Chain gets you 20% off the store.

138
00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:53,400
And also, there's still a couple Pleb Chain Radio shirts left if you're in the market.

139
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,400
So I had to plug that.

140
00:09:55,500 --> 00:09:56,060
Might as well.

141
00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,160
And Sam is a value for value legend in his own right.

142
00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,460
Pure though

143
00:10:02,460 --> 00:10:05,600
Right

144
00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,220
And for our sermon today, KW

145
00:10:08,220 --> 00:10:10,080
It is pages that

146
00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,000
Outrun flames

147
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,700
Ideas are wild creatures

148
00:10:14,700 --> 00:10:16,240
Try to cage them

149
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,220
And they gnaw through the bars

150
00:10:18,220 --> 00:10:20,320
Multiply in the rafters

151
00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,420
Then hitch a ride on the next

152
00:10:22,420 --> 00:10:23,880
Gust of Wi-Fi

153
00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,320
Somewhere in the mesh

154
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,060
A band of quiet scribes

155
00:10:29,060 --> 00:10:33,860
has learned to crack every scroll into fireflies,

156
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,840
tiny packets of text that slip through the fists of any would-be censor.

157
00:10:40,780 --> 00:10:43,960
A chapter becomes a constellation of events,

158
00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:46,800
metadata sparkling like dew,

159
00:10:47,500 --> 00:10:49,860
each fragment carrying the author's scent

160
00:10:49,860 --> 00:10:52,940
and a spark for tipping them in gratitude.

161
00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:57,560
The old empire built walls around papyrus.

162
00:10:57,560 --> 00:10:59,380
We build relays.

163
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,200
Where one careless blaze once erased a civilization,

164
00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,500
a single paragraph, now multiplies across nodes

165
00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:11,820
faster than a librarian can shout, quiet.

166
00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:18,020
Index cards bloom with summaries and ISBNs,

167
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,600
but no turnstiles, no overdue finds,

168
00:11:22,260 --> 00:11:25,380
only lightning arcs of appreciation,

169
00:11:25,380 --> 00:11:33,700
crackling like distant summer storms. Remember, water finds a way and code moves

170
00:11:33,700 --> 00:11:49,292
quicker still Knowledge yearns to be free not from ideology but from pure impatience Every zap you send is a vote for that impatience an electric wink that says

171
00:11:49,792 --> 00:11:52,032
run, little datum, run.

172
00:11:52,992 --> 00:11:56,632
So keep your relays open, your mind unlocked,

173
00:11:57,092 --> 00:11:58,312
your sat stack ready.

174
00:11:59,372 --> 00:12:03,392
The torch that once smoldered on a Mediterranean shore

175
00:12:03,392 --> 00:12:05,732
now flickers in every pocket.

176
00:12:06,432 --> 00:12:11,952
Let's make sure it never meets another matchbook, only more mirrors.

177
00:12:12,952 --> 00:12:19,592
And with that, it is time to bring on our guests, Stella, Emma, Chip, and Liminal.

178
00:12:20,192 --> 00:12:21,412
Welcome to Plep Chain Radio.

179
00:12:24,852 --> 00:12:25,492
Hello.

180
00:12:26,532 --> 00:12:27,612
It's great to be here.

181
00:12:28,352 --> 00:12:29,432
Thanks for having us.

182
00:12:31,932 --> 00:12:32,412
Excellent.

183
00:12:32,412 --> 00:12:36,892
Well, we typically start these guest segments with a burning question, a hypothetical.

184
00:12:37,652 --> 00:12:40,012
And Stella, we will direct this one to you.

185
00:12:41,692 --> 00:12:45,972
GitCitadel gets a $1 million OpenSats grant,

186
00:12:46,372 --> 00:12:51,932
and you start getting invited to all the influencer podcasts right after that.

187
00:12:52,312 --> 00:12:53,032
What do you do?

188
00:12:54,552 --> 00:12:55,532
Keep coding.

189
00:12:57,632 --> 00:12:59,552
I just want to code.

190
00:12:59,552 --> 00:13:03,552
I don't really want to go on to all of the conferences and stuff.

191
00:13:03,632 --> 00:13:07,032
I'm already going to do little meetups with Purple Connective.

192
00:13:08,152 --> 00:13:12,012
But I would just keep coding.

193
00:13:12,152 --> 00:13:15,292
There's so much work to do, and conferences suck up a lot of time.

194
00:13:15,872 --> 00:13:18,212
I don't know if that's a bad answer.

195
00:13:20,332 --> 00:13:21,592
There is no bad answer.

196
00:13:21,972 --> 00:13:22,412
Thank you.

197
00:13:23,172 --> 00:13:25,172
Avi, are we an influencer podcast?

198
00:13:25,652 --> 00:13:27,412
Well, we're not because she's here, right?

199
00:13:27,412 --> 00:13:30,732
She just said she wouldn't go on one, but she's here, which thankfully means...

200
00:13:30,732 --> 00:13:32,732
No, you guys are plebs. You guys are plebs.

201
00:13:33,172 --> 00:13:34,132
Total plebs here.

202
00:13:36,392 --> 00:13:39,792
All right, so why don't we start...

203
00:13:39,792 --> 00:13:43,292
I guess, Stella, since you're speaking, we'll start with you.

204
00:13:43,792 --> 00:13:46,612
Tell us a little bit about yourself for folks who are not familiar with you.

205
00:13:47,132 --> 00:13:49,652
How did you find Noster? What brought you here?

206
00:13:49,652 --> 00:13:51,812
And then we'll go around the horn.

207
00:13:51,812 --> 00:14:02,592
okay um i actually was on twitter back then it was called twitter and i was mostly talking with

208
00:14:02,592 --> 00:14:11,512
germans about political topics or homeschooling or the economy and every once in a while i had

209
00:14:11,512 --> 00:14:17,972
some contact with some bitcoiners and i kept getting locked out because i have relatively

210
00:14:17,972 --> 00:14:24,712
conservative use and there were some ban trolls who would just go around and report people for

211
00:14:24,712 --> 00:14:30,432
saying things to get them temporarily locked. I always get unlocked but you know the process is

212
00:14:30,432 --> 00:14:36,092
the punishment. So it was constantly applying to get my account unlocked, applying to get unlocked

213
00:14:36,092 --> 00:14:42,332
again and again and I kept complaining about it and then Immunoso and a couple of others

214
00:14:42,332 --> 00:14:47,772
said why don't you just switch to Noster. We've all gone to Noster because a Noster nobody

215
00:14:47,772 --> 00:14:55,752
can ban you and nobody can troll you with reports and that kind of thing so i i got banned again or

216
00:14:55,752 --> 00:15:01,012
not banned but you know locked and then i got returned but shadow banned because i've been

217
00:15:01,012 --> 00:15:06,612
locked so many times that i was on the list and that just was the last straw and i moved over to

218
00:15:06,612 --> 00:15:16,552
and i haven't gone back to now x since then and so i have i have more personally at stake than

219
00:15:16,552 --> 00:15:17,732
Most of the people moved to Noster.

220
00:15:18,032 --> 00:15:20,052
They all kind of moved just to keep chatting.

221
00:15:20,492 --> 00:15:22,952
But I really, I couldn't chat on the other one.

222
00:15:22,992 --> 00:15:24,312
I didn't have the option to stay there.

223
00:15:26,072 --> 00:15:31,832
So that was a really pivotal experience for me to really feel like I was being censored.

224
00:15:32,472 --> 00:15:36,792
And I was saying like really boring, dull things.

225
00:15:36,932 --> 00:15:39,332
It wasn't even anything edgy.

226
00:15:39,332 --> 00:15:41,912
It was just I was talking with somebody they didn't like.

227
00:15:42,052 --> 00:15:45,772
And everyone in that whole conversation would just get reported, reported.

228
00:15:45,772 --> 00:15:48,732
They just go down the whole list and report everybody.

229
00:15:50,012 --> 00:15:54,352
And it's one of the reasons I'm so gung-ho on the whole concept.

230
00:15:54,872 --> 00:16:01,272
And I think it's a beautiful system because it's such a thin tech stack,

231
00:16:01,992 --> 00:16:06,152
so easy to manage, so easy to launch and to develop for.

232
00:16:06,492 --> 00:16:08,912
I've developed for much more complex tech stacks,

233
00:16:09,092 --> 00:16:14,092
and this one is very, very user and dev-friendly.

234
00:16:14,092 --> 00:16:14,732
So.

235
00:16:17,672 --> 00:16:18,232
Excellent.

236
00:16:19,792 --> 00:16:28,192
We will double click more into what you've been doing with that thin and easy tech stack in a bit, Stella.

237
00:16:28,452 --> 00:16:31,292
But Emma, tell us a little bit about yourself.

238
00:16:32,792 --> 00:16:33,352
Yeah.

239
00:16:33,632 --> 00:16:37,152
First, thank you so much for having me on the show here.

240
00:16:37,932 --> 00:16:43,572
So I am a public health professor at a local university in Canada.

241
00:16:44,092 --> 00:16:48,912
And I went down the Bitcoin rabbit hole probably around 2020 for real.

242
00:16:49,732 --> 00:16:55,792
And for many of us, Twitter is a resource where you learn more about Bitcoin.

243
00:16:56,672 --> 00:17:02,832
And after that, I learned more about, essentially, Noster.

244
00:17:03,592 --> 00:17:08,112
And during this time when I was going down the rabbit hole,

245
00:17:08,112 --> 00:17:22,192
I'm directing a public health program at a very heightened time during the pandemic and just seeing the fall of just like open discourse in front of me.

246
00:17:22,192 --> 00:17:30,292
And also, you know, students also were not having objective conversations as well in the classroom.

247
00:17:30,292 --> 00:17:47,352
So I think in the back of my mind, I was really looking for ways in which real conversations can happen and kind of like an algorithmic free in some sense platform where people could get information.

248
00:17:47,352 --> 00:17:52,472
And I think when I first came across Noster, it kind of clicked for me.

249
00:17:52,812 --> 00:17:56,492
I didn't know exactly kind of what I would do with it.

250
00:17:57,992 --> 00:18:05,952
But it's led me to a really great place now where I'm clamoring with the Get Sit a Little team.

251
00:18:07,512 --> 00:18:10,772
And, yeah, that's a bit about me.

252
00:18:14,452 --> 00:18:15,092
Great.

253
00:18:15,692 --> 00:18:17,052
Chip, how about you?

254
00:18:17,352 --> 00:18:25,352
Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me, of course. And I had mentioned before we kind of started

255
00:18:25,352 --> 00:18:32,352
this stream where my kind of name came from. ChipTuner was kind of a chip tuning. It was

256
00:18:32,352 --> 00:18:37,492
kind of known in like the 90s, early 2000s for modifying vehicle firmware. And that's

257
00:18:37,492 --> 00:18:42,972
kind of what I did for the past seven years before I came to Noster. A friend and I kind

258
00:18:42,972 --> 00:18:45,332
along with one of his friends started business.

259
00:18:45,932 --> 00:18:53,772
We modified calibrations by reverse engineering the firmware on boxes from the 90s and early 2000s.

260
00:18:54,172 --> 00:18:57,212
That software was written in like the late 80s.

261
00:18:57,492 --> 00:19:01,972
And we were working on diesel-powered engines for light-duty pickup trucks.

262
00:19:02,772 --> 00:19:05,352
And, you know, along with the convention of everybody else here,

263
00:19:05,572 --> 00:19:09,492
we got into some trouble with the Environmental Protection Agency,

264
00:19:10,352 --> 00:19:11,912
along with other federal agencies.

265
00:19:12,972 --> 00:19:19,572
And we got off pretty easily, and I've been fairly public about my portion of the history,

266
00:19:19,712 --> 00:19:23,012
but I do respect everybody that's involved, so I can't say everything.

267
00:19:24,412 --> 00:19:27,292
But they came, you know, when they come, they come hard.

268
00:19:27,732 --> 00:19:32,312
And with some of our friends in the business, they were looking at everybody's social medias,

269
00:19:32,312 --> 00:19:35,492
and they had been kicking in doors, and they were arresting people left and right,

270
00:19:35,752 --> 00:19:38,912
and they had shut down basically every business nearby us,

271
00:19:38,912 --> 00:19:41,932
and they had been going after lots of companies in our field.

272
00:19:41,932 --> 00:19:48,752
And we got lucky to only have to go through a civil trial and be able to end that somewhat peacefully.

273
00:19:48,912 --> 00:19:51,612
And we just kind of dissolved and went our own ways.

274
00:19:51,852 --> 00:19:58,192
And throughout that process, which was a multi-year process, I just didn't like the idea of knowing that I was under surveillance all the time.

275
00:19:58,972 --> 00:20:05,492
And so I kind of got paranoid about how I was talking to my friends and family and, you know, seeing all the censorship happening everywhere.

276
00:20:05,712 --> 00:20:09,152
And I'd start getting more into software over, you know, hardware and firmware.

277
00:20:09,152 --> 00:20:16,872
and then I think I just was into finance and and other podcasts and I think I came across one of

278
00:20:16,872 --> 00:20:21,352
Marty's or Odell's podcasts and they had talked about Noster you know started talking about it

279
00:20:21,352 --> 00:20:27,032
regularly so I finally took the dive you know just searched around on the internet and and came

280
00:20:27,032 --> 00:20:34,412
across and and eventually found some really cool people here hmm Marty or Odell they must be new

281
00:20:34,412 --> 00:20:45,772
Avi. I've never heard of him. That's right. And finally, Liminal. Yes, Liminal. Please share your

282
00:20:45,772 --> 00:20:57,112
story. Yeah. So I first came across Noster from a Reason TV interview with Will, JB55, the developer

283
00:20:57,112 --> 00:21:04,372
of Damus and NVK on just Noster and the future of the decentralized internet. And I was just

284
00:21:04,372 --> 00:21:12,532
just got me really excited. I searched online trying to like just learn more. And I kind of

285
00:21:12,532 --> 00:21:19,632
went to some website that actually had some JavaScript code and just press run and, you know,

286
00:21:19,652 --> 00:21:27,612
get your private key and send out your first note. And I'm like, wow, this is actually really

287
00:21:27,612 --> 00:21:33,892
easy compared to any other type of, you know, quote unquote, decentralized platform. And that was

288
00:21:33,892 --> 00:21:38,072
that really drew me in. I saw on Noster.com

289
00:21:38,072 --> 00:21:40,012
a list of different

290
00:21:40,012 --> 00:21:45,072
web apps like Coracle and I

291
00:21:45,072 --> 00:21:49,072
ended up using Amethyst and

292
00:21:49,072 --> 00:21:53,772
from there that's where I really became orange pilled and just got really

293
00:21:53,772 --> 00:21:57,732
excited and wanted to see where we can go

294
00:21:57,732 --> 00:21:59,552
and how else I can contribute.

295
00:21:59,552 --> 00:22:08,632
that's interesting liminal so you came in presumably by the libertarian slant if you were

296
00:22:08,632 --> 00:22:16,112
watching reason tv you saw a nostra episode with will i think i remember that one that was from

297
00:22:16,112 --> 00:22:22,252
two or three years ago and then you got onto nostra and then you got orange build is that a fair

298
00:22:22,252 --> 00:22:29,972
summary yeah pretty much like i was you know bitcoin has been in my periphery for a while

299
00:22:29,972 --> 00:22:37,352
but i never it didn't really click until i started understanding nostr and around that time that's

300
00:22:37,352 --> 00:22:45,492
when uh zaps actually started uh like that was the first implementation of zaps and it just like

301
00:22:45,492 --> 00:22:51,372
everything just kind of my mind was blown and i'm like yes this is i'm really excited about this

302
00:22:51,372 --> 00:23:01,232
i got a little bit of a flashback avi of uh zach zach weissmuller uh when we we had him on i think

303
00:23:01,232 --> 00:23:07,132
it was episode seven yeah he works works at reason reason's been a big supporter i i love it

304
00:23:07,132 --> 00:23:13,352
at least in the early days i don't know if i have have they been following along have you

305
00:23:13,352 --> 00:23:18,792
read anything or anybody seen anything from reason lately i saw zach pop up a couple of

306
00:23:18,792 --> 00:23:33,864
weeks back but he on and off maybe takes a few months off pops up every now and then to post something Yeah So there are three things that I mentioned at the top that probably need clarification

307
00:23:34,184 --> 00:23:38,304
There's Git Citadel, there's Alexandria, and there's Met Scholar.

308
00:23:38,304 --> 00:23:47,064
I'm assuming we're starting from the largest to the narrowest, just in terms of scope.

309
00:23:48,784 --> 00:23:50,624
So Liminal, maybe start with you here.

310
00:23:50,624 --> 00:23:52,084
Do you want to talk about Git Citadel?

311
00:23:53,924 --> 00:24:01,664
I think Stella and Chip Tuner would be actually best suited to talk about this.

312
00:24:02,024 --> 00:24:02,164
Okay.

313
00:24:02,924 --> 00:24:06,284
Well, Stella, then, do you want to talk about Git Citadel?

314
00:24:06,284 --> 00:24:15,844
I'm assuming we're going down the funnel here with the broader scope, Alexandria, the next broadest, and then Metzcola with its narrow healthcare scope.

315
00:24:17,244 --> 00:24:17,484
Yeah.

316
00:24:17,484 --> 00:24:26,864
Yeah, Git Citadel is actually like a cooperative of different developers and power users.

317
00:24:27,604 --> 00:24:36,384
And it's become a sort of safe haven for everybody who really wants to build something high quality and complex with Nostr,

318
00:24:36,384 --> 00:24:46,724
which when I first got to Nostr sounded like a joke because everyone was just trying to build a Twitter clone or maybe some sort of widget.

319
00:24:47,484 --> 00:24:53,964
And I said, well, can't we use this to build enterprise-sized systems for replacing something like SharePoint and Teams?

320
00:24:54,824 --> 00:25:02,764
And everyone just sort of stared at me like I was insane, and I got muted, mass muted.

321
00:25:02,764 --> 00:25:10,724
But I am very confident that this is a possibility because it's my area of expertise, and I see what's out there,

322
00:25:10,724 --> 00:25:16,184
what the industry is already now doing, how they are now already getting away from centralized

323
00:25:16,184 --> 00:25:26,424
databases, moving to distributed events and relay architecture. And this is just leapfrogging over

324
00:25:26,424 --> 00:25:32,384
that and going to the next level right away, skipping the lower levels and not waiting to get

325
00:25:32,384 --> 00:25:37,824
a really expensive version from Microsoft or from Google, but rather everyone can make their own.

326
00:25:37,824 --> 00:25:43,144
and I just kept complaining about this and saying this is what we should be building

327
00:25:43,144 --> 00:25:51,344
and so should be building and then I was in a chat a private chat with Michael and Finrod and

328
00:25:51,344 --> 00:25:56,444
a couple of others and Liberty Gal and Beef and we were just like yeah it would be nice to build

329
00:25:56,444 --> 00:26:01,864
something like this and then Michael had the suggestion that we actually just start building

330
00:26:01,864 --> 00:26:07,564
So he was just sort of threw it out, but we decided to go ahead and run with it.

331
00:26:07,644 --> 00:26:13,244
I immediately started a Slack group and invited everybody in, and we just started plotting and planning and thinking what to do.

332
00:26:13,784 --> 00:26:28,884
And originally we were going to start off with a GitHub clone, also because we're all either developers or people very tech-affin, and that was something we could all identify with.

333
00:26:28,884 --> 00:26:34,724
And then Liminal was pushing this idea of this knowledge base.

334
00:26:35,644 --> 00:26:41,384
And he asked me to look at his idea, his proof of concept.

335
00:26:42,304 --> 00:26:43,204
And I did.

336
00:26:43,304 --> 00:26:45,064
And he was talking about knowledge base, knowledge base.

337
00:26:45,124 --> 00:26:46,544
And I said, do you know what that looks like?

338
00:26:47,004 --> 00:26:49,684
To me, when I see that, that looks like an e-book.

339
00:26:50,764 --> 00:26:51,704
That's a book.

340
00:26:52,244 --> 00:26:53,864
And he said, it's a knowledge base.

341
00:26:53,944 --> 00:26:56,044
And I said, it's knowledge base and it's a book.

342
00:26:56,044 --> 00:26:58,784
Or it could be a magazine or it could be a research journal.

343
00:26:58,884 --> 00:27:07,884
or a scientific paper, or documentation for a computer system, technical spec.

344
00:27:08,364 --> 00:27:10,664
It could be any kind of longer document,

345
00:27:11,124 --> 00:27:16,944
which is something that no one was thinking of building with Noster.

346
00:27:17,344 --> 00:27:19,844
There was a whole long-form article,

347
00:27:19,844 --> 00:27:22,224
but you would have to have a whole bunch of them,

348
00:27:22,284 --> 00:27:23,644
and there was no way to string them together.

349
00:27:24,704 --> 00:27:27,604
And I said, but you've invented a way to string these things together.

350
00:27:28,244 --> 00:27:29,724
That's what the index is.

351
00:27:30,304 --> 00:27:32,084
And we took Liminal on board.

352
00:27:32,324 --> 00:27:35,324
Let us take over his stuff and build it out.

353
00:27:35,424 --> 00:27:40,004
And now we have more and more products we're working on in parallel.

354
00:27:40,504 --> 00:27:44,144
And it's actually getting pretty exciting.

355
00:27:45,724 --> 00:27:47,304
Yeah, it's getting bigger and bigger.

356
00:27:47,664 --> 00:27:49,844
More and more people and more and more products.

357
00:27:49,844 --> 00:27:51,624
And things are actually being delivered.

358
00:27:52,784 --> 00:27:56,824
So, Stella, if I understand the – so we'll stick with Git Citadel.

359
00:27:57,604 --> 00:28:05,624
for a moment. It sounds like an amorphous collective of developers building or maybe

360
00:28:05,624 --> 00:28:11,544
pooling resources or time, picking pet projects like a GitHub replacement, for instance,

361
00:28:12,044 --> 00:28:18,964
or something else, right? So there's no fixed charter as such, right? It's loosely knit

362
00:28:18,964 --> 00:28:26,684
organization. I can't say that. There is a fixed charter and there is a hierarchical

363
00:28:26,684 --> 00:28:33,544
organization structure. And I don't want to give away too much. Maybe you'll have me back on the

364
00:28:33,544 --> 00:28:40,584
show if something happens that makes it even more fixed. We'll see. But we definitely have a hardcore

365
00:28:40,584 --> 00:28:50,804
that works for free, basically. And we hire on help. And sometimes we actually have money to pay

366
00:28:50,804 --> 00:28:57,104
them but because we don't have any big funding we we have to to earn the money with work

367
00:28:57,104 --> 00:29:07,624
got it and chip when did you join uh get citadel and how would you characterize your work there

368
00:29:07,624 --> 00:29:15,644
yeah um i think i'm well okay so i guess it's been over a year probably closer to two years now

369
00:29:15,644 --> 00:29:21,124
um Stella had been posting she's like I'm a developer now and I was like what are you working

370
00:29:21,124 --> 00:29:28,304
on and she had just tagged Michael and uh he was working on uh I forget exactly what we called at

371
00:29:28,304 --> 00:29:36,724
the time but it's currently Project Eidyl and uh which is a C++ SDK and I'm probably the second to

372
00:29:36,724 --> 00:29:44,484
uh will uh C developer on Noster probably the only two and I was like man this is a cool project

373
00:29:44,484 --> 00:29:46,624
would you be interested in using my library for it?

374
00:29:46,864 --> 00:29:48,504
I developed a library called Noscript,

375
00:29:48,644 --> 00:29:51,144
which is just kind of meant to do all the cryptography stuff

376
00:29:51,144 --> 00:29:52,324
in an easy little library.

377
00:29:53,184 --> 00:29:56,164
And, you know, hopefully make that easily distributable

378
00:29:56,164 --> 00:29:58,224
alongside something like iDial.

379
00:29:59,024 --> 00:30:02,964
And Finrod and Michael had really been plugging away on it at the time.

380
00:30:04,144 --> 00:30:07,004
And so that was one of the big projects

381
00:30:07,004 --> 00:30:09,344
that we kind of have on hold right now to focus on Alexandria.

382
00:30:10,344 --> 00:30:12,164
But that's kind of when I stepped in.

383
00:30:12,164 --> 00:30:17,124
and they took me in as a pretty large part of our organization now, which is awesome.

384
00:30:17,984 --> 00:30:22,104
And, you know, so now I end up doing most of the sysadmin work,

385
00:30:22,224 --> 00:30:25,164
getting servers up and deployed and kind of our development work,

386
00:30:25,804 --> 00:30:29,504
and then just contribute where I can for backend knowledge.

387
00:30:30,404 --> 00:30:33,204
You know, one of the big projects which we advertise and is currently in production

388
00:30:33,204 --> 00:30:39,544
is a Nostra Git remote, which is just kind of one step towards our GitHub replacement,

389
00:30:39,544 --> 00:30:45,124
just that, you know, at minimum, one of the best things to help distribute is remote, right?

390
00:30:45,204 --> 00:30:51,664
Because a lot of the other Git functionality is kind of there, you know, with Git stuff on Noster.

391
00:30:51,884 --> 00:30:53,744
Other people have contributed to that project.

392
00:30:53,924 --> 00:30:56,284
And, you know, we kind of have issues and we have proposals.

393
00:30:56,584 --> 00:31:03,124
And, you know, we kind of have that functionality across relays right now, despite, you know, WebUIs maybe not being the greatest.

394
00:31:04,144 --> 00:31:08,364
So another step toward actually decentralizing that is getting a remote up.

395
00:31:08,364 --> 00:31:14,944
whereas right now it just kind of focuses on using other remotes such as GitHub or Codeberg, etc.

396
00:31:15,504 --> 00:31:21,124
Some of your big hosting providers and so being an alternative to that is something we're focusing on as well.

397
00:31:23,204 --> 00:31:26,724
So QW, if I were to summarize what I heard.

398
00:31:27,404 --> 00:31:28,804
I was just going to ask for that.

399
00:31:28,984 --> 00:31:32,884
Kind of give me the, I'm telling my 10-year-old what I'm doing.

400
00:31:32,884 --> 00:31:40,844
It sounds like Git Citadel has a secret charter, which Stella doesn't want to share just yet.

401
00:31:41,604 --> 00:31:48,924
But it's a lot of really cool projects and a lot of cool developers who are working on these things.

402
00:31:50,044 --> 00:31:54,404
Yeah, it's always kind of, I mean, just a simple Nostra user.

403
00:31:54,944 --> 00:31:59,824
I've seen the terms, I've seen the, you know, I was never a GitHub person to begin with.

404
00:31:59,824 --> 00:32:03,804
So when I see Git Citadel, I think, oh, it must be something like that.

405
00:32:04,244 --> 00:32:07,244
But it's just, it's highly complex.

406
00:32:07,784 --> 00:32:16,024
And as developers, I feel like, you know, there's a different understanding of how important something like these projects may be.

407
00:32:16,444 --> 00:32:25,304
But for just a layman like myself, until I actually can use something or fiddle around, I don't fully grasp it.

408
00:32:25,304 --> 00:32:30,584
So, what do you feel, maybe Chip can answer this, what do you think this is going to solve?

409
00:32:31,664 --> 00:32:41,624
So, I guess to more answer your question of what is GitCitadel, and I'm probably not the best to answer fully what GitCitadel as a company is, you know, as a collective.

410
00:32:41,624 --> 00:32:52,204
But what we're trying to do is what really nobody else can do, which is develop consistent enterprise ready software, right?

411
00:32:52,204 --> 00:32:57,104
To actually compete in a market where we're kind of just surrounded by pleb software, right?

412
00:32:57,164 --> 00:33:03,544
That sometimes works and sometimes has issues and oftentimes has regression and most of the time doesn't have testing.

413
00:33:03,804 --> 00:33:08,544
And, you know, they just don't have the teams or the funding or whatever you want to call it to get there, right?

414
00:33:08,544 --> 00:33:15,424
And so the reason we kind of got together was this sort of idea of let's actually get something out, right?

415
00:33:15,484 --> 00:33:20,684
And while it's slow, right, something like Alexandria has been our focus because, well, that's something you can get your hands on, right?

416
00:33:21,664 --> 00:33:23,744
Whereas our other products hopefully will.

417
00:33:24,264 --> 00:33:26,584
But the idea is that, you know, it's going to be consistent.

418
00:33:26,704 --> 00:33:29,064
We're going to follow correct software development principles.

419
00:33:29,624 --> 00:33:31,784
And we're going to actually get things out, right?

420
00:33:31,784 --> 00:33:34,704
Whether it be putting together other people's software.

421
00:33:34,704 --> 00:33:40,624
But what we often realize is that we end up having to build most of it ourselves if we want it to work and work consistently with the products we want to build.

422
00:33:44,184 --> 00:33:55,404
And building this on Noster is, like Stella was saying, is something that's just a much simpler foundation to build on.

423
00:33:56,044 --> 00:33:57,444
How much does that help in this?

424
00:33:58,264 --> 00:34:03,784
I mean, I guess the idea being that relays are of the most powerful and we don't really have to build backends.

425
00:34:03,784 --> 00:34:10,524
I mean, at the moment, Alexandria doesn't really have a back end that has been published yet.

426
00:34:11,144 --> 00:34:15,784
So most of it is across relays, which is pretty easy.

427
00:34:15,964 --> 00:34:20,804
They're pretty black box in that they're portable at the moment.

428
00:34:21,644 --> 00:34:26,383
And so you don't really have to build a lot of closed back end infrastructure that's all custom.

429
00:34:26,744 --> 00:34:30,924
I don't have to set up databases and I don't have to set up back end APIs.

430
00:34:30,924 --> 00:34:37,584
For the most part, its clients, for now, can talk to Relay, and that is a universal interface.

431
00:34:37,864 --> 00:34:41,364
So it doesn't have to be any particular piece of software or anything we build ourselves.

432
00:34:43,844 --> 00:34:45,924
I think that's probably...

433
00:34:47,044 --> 00:34:50,664
It's just powerful when you say it like that.

434
00:34:51,404 --> 00:34:56,304
It's really the essence of Noster, whether it's communication protocol,

435
00:34:56,304 --> 00:35:20,535
But you know when you storing little bits of data decentralized everywhere and using that as a database that or a server I would say that that powerful stuff If I could say Yes please Stella This is the thing that motivated me the most Because when I started in the late 90s working in software development and software testing

436
00:35:21,115 --> 00:35:25,696
we were originally, my first job was in a hospital in Texas.

437
00:35:26,515 --> 00:35:30,775
And it was working on their mainframes in the server basement.

438
00:35:30,775 --> 00:35:37,956
and we had the endless paper with the little needlepoint printers and terminals.

439
00:35:38,515 --> 00:35:45,655
And it was very, very expensive and difficult for a hospital to get a good record-keeping system.

440
00:35:47,135 --> 00:35:49,775
Universities often only had microcomputers.

441
00:35:49,916 --> 00:35:53,255
They couldn't afford servers because the servers were humongous servers.

442
00:35:53,255 --> 00:35:58,436
They were entire rooms with wire floors just to send email.

443
00:35:58,436 --> 00:36:05,015
and I've been watching this tech stack you know I was I went from working in the hospital

444
00:36:05,015 --> 00:36:11,615
with these record-keeping systems to working in bioinformatics where it was all about genomics

445
00:36:11,615 --> 00:36:18,075
research that was the thing that got me me interested in what Liminal was doing is because

446
00:36:18,075 --> 00:36:24,275
I worked on a project testing software that basically scanned all sorts of scientific

447
00:36:24,275 --> 00:36:29,775
research journals and created visual maps of the topics and the relationship between the journals

448
00:36:29,775 --> 00:36:36,115
at topic level. And he was also talking about doing something like that with Noster data,

449
00:36:36,376 --> 00:36:41,876
which really struck with me. And it's just with that software we built, it was again,

450
00:36:41,956 --> 00:36:47,535
you needed a big server, you needed a whole team of specialists building it, and it took years

451
00:36:47,535 --> 00:36:53,995
to finish. And now with Noster, it's just we're rebuilding the same thing that I've built before

452
00:36:53,995 --> 00:36:57,815
over a period of two or three years

453
00:36:57,815 --> 00:37:03,835
in one year over relays with a web app.

454
00:37:04,095 --> 00:37:06,675
And it's just awesome that you can do that nowadays.

455
00:37:06,675 --> 00:37:09,595
It's so thin, but you need good software architects

456
00:37:09,595 --> 00:37:11,175
who understand how to build it

457
00:37:11,175 --> 00:37:13,215
so that it works as well as the things

458
00:37:13,215 --> 00:37:14,255
that we were building before

459
00:37:14,255 --> 00:37:16,456
with the massive hardware stack.

460
00:37:17,595 --> 00:37:19,315
And like Chip said,

461
00:37:19,615 --> 00:37:22,376
I think we're the only team with the know-how

462
00:37:22,376 --> 00:37:26,255
and the personnel to build something of that complexity,

463
00:37:26,795 --> 00:37:29,475
especially a whole suite of such products that interact really well.

464
00:37:32,155 --> 00:37:32,995
Well said.

465
00:37:33,155 --> 00:37:35,956
So Nostra is just not a Twitter replacement is what you're saying?

466
00:37:37,075 --> 00:37:39,416
Nostra is a protocol and Twitter is a widget.

467
00:37:40,936 --> 00:37:44,735
I love shows like this because we can break down the complexity

468
00:37:44,735 --> 00:37:46,356
that is built on simplicity.

469
00:37:47,155 --> 00:37:49,595
So let's talk about Alexandria.

470
00:37:49,595 --> 00:37:55,595
and whoever feels like their best fit for it, shoot away.

471
00:37:56,055 --> 00:37:56,396
Liminal.

472
00:37:57,196 --> 00:38:03,735
Yeah, so I've been actually very interested in kind of education

473
00:38:03,735 --> 00:38:07,155
because I think that is the metagame to win.

474
00:38:07,155 --> 00:38:11,335
If we all can learn as effectively as possible,

475
00:38:12,275 --> 00:38:14,515
like everyone is elevated,

476
00:38:14,515 --> 00:38:28,615
whether that is the individual that wants to just go from straight learning what addition is and then, you know, somehow climbing up the ladder all the way to, you know, astrophysics and chemistry.

477
00:38:28,615 --> 00:38:56,815
I mean, it happens. It's clearly possible. That's how education happens. But the direct path is not something that is so clear. And even with just how do you navigate from your own interest and you see these kind of careers all the way in the distance and you just want to see how did they get there.

478
00:38:56,815 --> 00:39:04,335
And this is just something I've been really interested since about, I'd say, 2017, 2018.

479
00:39:04,975 --> 00:39:17,215
And when I came across Noster, I realized that this is an awesome platform protocol for a decentralized wiki.

480
00:39:18,575 --> 00:39:26,135
And I had to look into the different specs and figure out how would this happen.

481
00:39:26,135 --> 00:39:31,175
It has to be more than just wiki but decentralized.

482
00:39:32,055 --> 00:39:36,655
There's been projects that essentially cloned Wikipedia,

483
00:39:37,396 --> 00:39:42,735
and then the projects just died because they didn't really have anything else to contribute.

484
00:39:43,775 --> 00:39:50,495
And with my own kind of experience and learning about personal knowledge management,

485
00:39:50,495 --> 00:39:59,635
I made a connection that if you can take these little atomic notes inspired by Zetel Kasten,

486
00:40:00,555 --> 00:40:10,555
and you can link them together, whether that is sentences or paragraphs, chapters, etc.

487
00:40:10,795 --> 00:40:15,155
If you link them all together linearly, that looks exactly like an article or book.

488
00:40:15,675 --> 00:40:18,995
And you can also take those lists and put them in more lists.

489
00:40:18,995 --> 00:40:28,376
So instead of just an article that is composed out of lists, you can have a full course where individual articles compose together.

490
00:40:28,376 --> 00:40:32,115
So you have a list of lists that kind of sprawls out.

491
00:40:32,515 --> 00:40:40,555
And the atomicness of the individual notes help with searching and isolation.

492
00:40:40,775 --> 00:40:47,635
Because you can have a library of 100 textbooks on physics.

493
00:40:47,635 --> 00:40:54,655
but maybe the authors don't write in a way that is actually resonant to you

494
00:40:54,655 --> 00:40:57,115
because you have your own context and your own background.

495
00:40:57,775 --> 00:41:02,075
But maybe there's one chapter within those 100 textbooks

496
00:41:02,075 --> 00:41:04,495
that are actually, it's gold for you.

497
00:41:04,995 --> 00:41:07,795
Or even spread across those 100 textbooks,

498
00:41:07,936 --> 00:41:10,916
maybe there's one page or a chapter that's different for all of them.

499
00:41:11,795 --> 00:41:15,095
You shouldn't have to read through all of them just to find the gold.

500
00:41:15,095 --> 00:41:22,775
and essentially when you start working with these atomic notes you can link them together

501
00:41:22,775 --> 00:41:29,416
you get you get references if you want to quote something you don't need to kind of leave your

502
00:41:29,416 --> 00:41:36,335
existing reading you can just you can just slot it in and as opposed to i say you know

503
00:41:36,335 --> 00:41:42,115
talk about it and say look at this you have to go to this other journal and then dive in while

504
00:41:42,115 --> 00:41:47,315
trying to unpack the density within certain types of knowledge.

505
00:41:47,575 --> 00:41:53,235
You can just, you don't have to go searching around

506
00:41:53,235 --> 00:41:56,075
and trying to figure out where did this piece of knowledge come from

507
00:41:56,075 --> 00:42:02,575
and how is it relevant by just unpacking multiple papers

508
00:42:02,575 --> 00:42:10,055
and, yeah, unpacking multiple papers and forgetting where you started.

509
00:42:10,055 --> 00:42:17,095
And here it all just mixes in together, and you don't need to get distracted.

510
00:42:18,015 --> 00:42:22,735
Liminal, could I ask, you're talking about atomic nodes.

511
00:42:23,695 --> 00:42:29,356
On the one hand, my mind is wandering to what the large language model does,

512
00:42:29,416 --> 00:42:35,035
which is it decomposes or deconstructs things into tokens, right,

513
00:42:35,035 --> 00:42:38,295
which eventually end up going to tensors

514
00:42:38,295 --> 00:42:40,635
and embeddings and what have you.

515
00:42:40,715 --> 00:42:42,916
But it sounds a bit like that on the one hand,

516
00:42:43,396 --> 00:42:46,515
but the way you described it,

517
00:42:46,595 --> 00:42:49,815
it sounded like an atomic note could be a sentence

518
00:42:49,815 --> 00:42:52,555
or a group of sentences

519
00:42:52,555 --> 00:42:54,835
that then roll up into something bigger,

520
00:42:54,896 --> 00:42:56,976
an article which then rolls up into something bigger,

521
00:42:57,456 --> 00:42:58,896
an entire book or a manuscript.

522
00:43:01,095 --> 00:43:04,356
But in thinking through that decomposition,

523
00:43:04,356 --> 00:43:18,135
What if there is a, is it truly an atomic note is what I'm trying to get at, meaning can it be decomposed further than that sort of base that you're starting with?

524
00:43:18,135 --> 00:43:25,775
well that that's interesting because if you think about like

525
00:43:25,775 --> 00:43:31,515
organisms that are made out of cells and then those cells are made out of

526
00:43:31,515 --> 00:43:37,995
different biofilms that also have learned that we've also discovered that biofilms and viruses

527
00:43:37,995 --> 00:43:43,936
also have agencies and are also kind of alive in themselves so there's in the sense of like the

528
00:43:43,936 --> 00:43:51,916
natural world, there's almost like no bottom. There's measurements of where things stop making

529
00:43:51,916 --> 00:44:01,876
sense, but knowledge is kind of like that as well. The authors can decide on what their most atomic

530
00:44:01,876 --> 00:44:09,876
level is to even just the Anki, the note-taking system, where it's like a flash card. You have a

531
00:44:09,876 --> 00:44:12,436
a specific word or phrase,

532
00:44:12,635 --> 00:44:13,715
and then on the back of it,

533
00:44:13,795 --> 00:44:17,456
it unravels the definition and its applicability.

534
00:44:17,555 --> 00:44:20,335
So you can essentially do that for every single word,

535
00:44:20,695 --> 00:44:22,416
and it just keeps sprawling out.

536
00:44:22,936 --> 00:44:25,535
The issue that you can run into is like,

537
00:44:25,595 --> 00:44:26,936
okay, well, if there's no end,

538
00:44:26,936 --> 00:44:30,655
then how do you learn anything

539
00:44:30,655 --> 00:44:32,575
without unraveling the whole thing?

540
00:44:32,695 --> 00:44:35,255
And the important thing is that it's all contextual.

541
00:44:35,695 --> 00:44:38,416
You don't need to completely unravel it.

542
00:44:38,416 --> 00:44:44,735
you can dive in as much as you need just so that way you can learn for the problem that you're

543
00:44:44,735 --> 00:44:50,135
trying to solve immediately. But for anyone else that needs that extra context, then they can start

544
00:44:50,135 --> 00:44:56,795
really digging in and seeing the different types of knowledge that is packed into something that

545
00:44:56,795 --> 00:45:04,095
can be dense, like massively packed together and almost impenetrable. So let's bring it from the

546
00:45:04,095 --> 00:45:09,155
abstract to something more concrete and especially for you know non-technical folks in the in the

547
00:45:09,155 --> 00:45:15,595
audience who are saying okay alexandria sounds cool but how do i use it right uh what so how does

548
00:45:15,595 --> 00:45:20,515
this this concept of the atomic note rolling into something larger rolling into something larger

549
00:45:20,515 --> 00:45:28,075
how does that translate into real user experience well at the base level the

550
00:45:28,075 --> 00:45:39,436
you can just write in plain text. We use a specific type of text syntax, but the text editor

551
00:45:39,436 --> 00:45:44,436
is like any other text editor that you would work with. You can bold, italicize, you just write it

552
00:45:44,436 --> 00:45:51,356
normally. But what Alexandria does is that it takes everything at the heading or the title of

553
00:45:51,356 --> 00:45:58,195
your chapter or your section, and it separates them into the atomic notes. So that way,

554
00:45:58,896 --> 00:46:04,995
when you're reading, it looks exactly like a regular book or an article that you know,

555
00:46:05,255 --> 00:46:10,795
but underneath, hidden between, and if you wanted to dive in and explore more,

556
00:46:11,055 --> 00:46:19,535
it's essentially a chain of sections that combine together. But just for reading and writing,

557
00:46:19,535 --> 00:46:21,835
there is essentially no difference.

558
00:46:22,155 --> 00:46:24,555
You don't need to really be thinking about that

559
00:46:24,555 --> 00:46:27,715
when you're engaging it at that level.

560
00:46:28,255 --> 00:46:31,115
So if I'm a user and I go to Alexandria,

561
00:46:31,595 --> 00:46:33,956
presumably I sign in with a NIPO 7 extension,

562
00:46:34,695 --> 00:46:36,956
and then I can read a book.

563
00:46:37,715 --> 00:46:40,255
Is that the simplest way of thinking about it?

564
00:46:40,255 --> 00:46:41,575
I can search for a book that I want.

565
00:46:41,815 --> 00:46:43,476
If it's there, I find it and I read it.

566
00:46:45,356 --> 00:46:46,416
Yeah, exactly.

567
00:46:46,416 --> 00:46:52,396
We have essentially transformed many open source public

568
00:46:52,447 --> 00:47:03,007
domain works into Noster events. We have the Bible, we have academic papers, and we also have

569
00:47:03,007 --> 00:47:10,567
other books from Project Gutenberg, like Dracula. And they're all underneath. It's these chain of,

570
00:47:10,767 --> 00:47:17,127
I call them index cards. But when you read it on Alexandria, it just looks like a regular,

571
00:47:17,127 --> 00:47:20,447
just a plain article that you would read.

572
00:47:21,947 --> 00:47:25,767
And what else can the user do other than...

573
00:47:25,767 --> 00:47:27,447
Because, I mean, presumably, right,

574
00:47:27,587 --> 00:47:30,607
the average user doesn't have this,

575
00:47:31,367 --> 00:47:32,807
the technical background to say,

576
00:47:32,907 --> 00:47:35,047
well, let me think in terms of fundamental units

577
00:47:35,047 --> 00:47:37,607
or atomic units and decomposability and what have you.

578
00:47:37,927 --> 00:47:39,987
They have a specific need,

579
00:47:40,447 --> 00:47:42,007
which is, let's just say,

580
00:47:42,127 --> 00:47:43,487
they want to read something, right,

581
00:47:43,527 --> 00:47:44,567
a specific article.

582
00:47:44,867 --> 00:47:46,447
They go to Alexandria, they search for it,

583
00:47:46,467 --> 00:47:47,047
they find it.

584
00:47:47,127 --> 00:47:51,907
and they read it, is there anything else at that sort of user experience level that they can do?

585
00:47:53,087 --> 00:48:02,867
Yeah. So because you have this higher resolution behind more than just chapters or sections,

586
00:48:03,507 --> 00:48:13,487
you can look at any piece of text and it can work for writing and exploring different types

587
00:48:13,487 --> 00:48:22,207
of knowledge. So if you are reading an academic paper, or if you're reading Dracula, and you want

588
00:48:22,207 --> 00:48:33,547
to find other ideas or similar genres, similar narratives in some sense, then because it's all

589
00:48:33,547 --> 00:48:41,667
linked together through the data that is contained underneath the individual text notes,

590
00:48:41,667 --> 00:48:47,667
You can start sprawling out, and you don't even need to read the full text.

591
00:48:48,467 --> 00:48:55,327
You can essentially just bring in the pieces of the full text that are most relevant to the thing that you're reading.

592
00:48:55,727 --> 00:49:06,887
And when it comes to writing, you can take inspiration and have your little stack of references that you can look through that are not full books.

593
00:49:06,887 --> 00:49:18,287
It helps you focus the things that you're looking at so that way you can go on and start writing the ideas that you already have.

594
00:49:19,287 --> 00:49:29,307
Another thing you can do if you're more of a casual reader is that if you are, for instance, reading Dracula and you see a passage where you think, wow, I'd love to share this with my friends.

595
00:49:29,307 --> 00:49:36,547
you can highlight that with a literal highlight the highlight event and share that on your social

596
00:49:36,547 --> 00:49:42,167
media feed just that paragraph or just um or if you look reading a research paper you can

597
00:49:42,167 --> 00:49:49,007
basically make a snapshot of um a chart that you think is interesting maybe it's about inflation

598
00:49:49,007 --> 00:49:53,407
in the federal reserve or something you want to share it with all of your bitcoin or friends

599
00:49:53,407 --> 00:50:00,687
then you can just highlight it or you can comment underneath it and at your friend like look at this

600
00:50:00,687 --> 00:50:09,187
check this one out and it would then show up in Alexandria next to or directly below this article

601
00:50:09,187 --> 00:50:18,887
or book so you have the the social interaction inside of these these Noster event chains and

602
00:50:18,887 --> 00:50:25,267
the difference between this and a lot of other things is that you can actually take that section

603
00:50:25,267 --> 00:50:34,707
and embed it into a kind one note it's not a copy of that section it's literally that section

604
00:50:34,707 --> 00:50:41,667
because that section is a note and you can embed a note and this gives us this um i can't remember

605
00:50:41,667 --> 00:50:48,447
the word for it, Liminal probably knows it, this ability to have references that are the object.

606
00:50:48,447 --> 00:50:55,087
So you don't have like with a URL, an address that you would go to to find that. Rather,

607
00:50:55,187 --> 00:51:00,847
you have that actual event can be copied as many times as you want, embedded everywhere,

608
00:51:01,187 --> 00:51:06,247
spread onto as many different relays as you want. But it's always the same event. It always has the

609
00:51:06,247 --> 00:51:11,347
same signature it always has the same event id and i think this is this is what nasta really

610
00:51:11,347 --> 00:51:14,947
brings to the whole knowledge base thing is that you can have an infinite number of copies

611
00:51:14,947 --> 00:51:21,827
and share them around comment on them and each one can live in isolation from the original source

612
00:51:21,827 --> 00:51:27,007
you don't need to even have the source but if you have that address you can search on

613
00:51:27,007 --> 00:51:36,207
alexandria and find the source so nothing is ever um orphaned you there is a and i wonder

614
00:51:36,207 --> 00:51:42,667
of this ties in, Stella, into the concept of NKBIPs that I've seen on Alexandria, these

615
00:51:42,667 --> 00:51:43,927
events that you're talking about.

616
00:51:44,807 --> 00:51:45,007
Right.

617
00:51:46,087 --> 00:51:49,407
So actually, do you want to talk a little bit about that, what NKBIPs are?

618
00:51:50,707 --> 00:51:53,827
Yeah, actually, I got the term from Liminal.

619
00:51:53,827 --> 00:52:01,927
The first spec he wrote was Noster Knowledge Base 01.

620
00:52:01,927 --> 00:52:11,347
so nkb that's noster knowledge base implementation proposal 01 that's where the nkbip comes from it

621
00:52:11,347 --> 00:52:19,307
actually stands for something so instead of a nip it was a nk i nkbip nkbip that's how i would say it

622
00:52:19,307 --> 00:52:25,587
nkbip and we're now i think at number six and they're just the specs that we came up with

623
00:52:25,587 --> 00:52:28,447
that have never become NIPs.

624
00:52:28,547 --> 00:52:31,027
Some of them have applied to become NIPs

625
00:52:31,027 --> 00:52:32,267
and haven't become them.

626
00:52:33,467 --> 00:52:35,467
Not because they're not interesting,

627
00:52:35,647 --> 00:52:37,847
but just because they don't fit into the scheme

628
00:52:37,847 --> 00:52:41,727
or the scope of what they want shown there.

629
00:52:41,907 --> 00:52:44,387
A lot of our stuff is maybe also too advanced

630
00:52:44,387 --> 00:52:46,967
for your average Nostra dev.

631
00:52:47,087 --> 00:52:49,287
So I don't know how many other people

632
00:52:49,287 --> 00:52:50,327
would be interested in it.

633
00:52:50,707 --> 00:52:51,927
Stella, could I pause you there

634
00:52:51,927 --> 00:52:55,047
on the NIPs not being accepted

635
00:52:55,047 --> 00:52:57,647
I mean, this is permissionless, right?

636
00:52:57,807 --> 00:53:00,407
Yes, it might not get merged into the main NIP repo,

637
00:53:00,827 --> 00:53:03,207
but you can have it on a branch and just use it, right?

638
00:53:03,487 --> 00:53:04,787
That's the beauty of NOSTER.

639
00:53:05,507 --> 00:53:07,267
Well, that's what we've done, right?

640
00:53:07,747 --> 00:53:10,827
The NKBIP, we give it our own numbering system

641
00:53:10,827 --> 00:53:12,707
so that we can find our own stuff really easily.

642
00:53:13,027 --> 00:53:14,787
We keep it on the NOSTER wiki.

643
00:53:15,207 --> 00:53:16,447
We don't use Git for that.

644
00:53:17,367 --> 00:53:19,887
It's on NOSTER, our specifications.

645
00:53:20,307 --> 00:53:21,887
You can view them in Alexandria.

646
00:53:21,887 --> 00:53:27,827
that's why Alexandria is very soon going to have a wiki and it's going to be an awesome wiki it's

647
00:53:27,827 --> 00:53:33,787
gonna be the best wiki ever and you'll be able to search for all the different specs there including

648
00:53:33,787 --> 00:53:40,387
the nips and the NKBIPs because our stuff this is the difference with Noster we don't need permission

649
00:53:40,387 --> 00:53:45,247
to post on Noster and we also don't need permission to copy other people's stuff and put it on Noster

650
00:53:45,247 --> 00:53:48,287
so it's all going on Noster

651
00:53:48,287 --> 00:53:50,467
I've seen Alex Gleason I think

652
00:53:50,467 --> 00:53:52,467
recently also put some more nips on Noster

653
00:53:52,467 --> 00:53:54,167
we already have some

654
00:53:54,167 --> 00:53:54,927
in the wiki

655
00:53:54,927 --> 00:53:58,807
and we're taking everything permissionless

656
00:53:58,807 --> 00:54:00,367
and taking it on a Noster

657
00:54:00,367 --> 00:54:02,467
we don't have to ask anyone for permission

658
00:54:02,467 --> 00:54:04,527
we can just post our stuff

659
00:54:04,527 --> 00:54:06,567
anyone who wants to see it can go to our app

660
00:54:06,567 --> 00:54:08,907
and look at it and comment on it

661
00:54:08,907 --> 00:54:10,167
and suggest a fork

662
00:54:10,167 --> 00:54:12,507
and zap it

663
00:54:12,507 --> 00:54:14,587
if I were to

664
00:54:14,587 --> 00:54:17,747
and I'm not a particularly serious developer here.

665
00:54:17,947 --> 00:54:19,947
I used to write code a long time ago.

666
00:54:20,127 --> 00:54:22,827
So forgive the basic question,

667
00:54:22,927 --> 00:54:29,347
but if I were to build out a standard kind one type client,

668
00:54:29,507 --> 00:54:31,227
right, the Twitter clone,

669
00:54:31,687 --> 00:54:32,327
where I said, you know what?

670
00:54:32,367 --> 00:54:34,507
I want these Alexandria snippets.

671
00:54:36,127 --> 00:54:37,287
It would be fairly straight.

672
00:54:37,347 --> 00:54:39,747
I would just look at the NKBIPs and implement them

673
00:54:39,747 --> 00:54:41,887
and my client would be able to show anything

674
00:54:41,887 --> 00:54:42,907
that came out of Alexandria.

675
00:54:43,727 --> 00:54:44,127
Yes.

676
00:54:44,587 --> 00:54:44,947
Okay.

677
00:54:45,927 --> 00:54:47,787
There's already other clients,

678
00:54:48,347 --> 00:54:52,127
and there's a Flutter library from Neil,

679
00:54:52,647 --> 00:54:59,187
and there's the Chachi client that can also display these,

680
00:54:59,667 --> 00:55:02,067
and NJump contains them,

681
00:55:02,147 --> 00:55:06,467
and I'm going to be offering a suggestion to their repo

682
00:55:06,467 --> 00:55:09,727
so that they can show it in a way you could actually read it like a book.

683
00:55:09,867 --> 00:55:11,307
Right now you see the event data,

684
00:55:11,307 --> 00:55:15,067
but it's going to be displayed more like an article or a book

685
00:55:15,067 --> 00:55:20,947
and yeah, it's actually really easy to implement

686
00:55:20,947 --> 00:55:24,707
but the concept is really complex to come up with

687
00:55:24,707 --> 00:55:27,147
but the implementation is very clear.

688
00:55:27,147 --> 00:55:32,687
It's just an index card listing the parts in order

689
00:55:32,687 --> 00:55:36,607
and it's hierarchical.

690
00:55:36,747 --> 00:55:41,087
So you can have index cards that reference lower level index cards.

691
00:55:41,307 --> 00:55:44,407
And that's a really complex idea, actually.

692
00:55:44,827 --> 00:55:46,787
So kudos to Liminald for coming up with it.

693
00:55:47,407 --> 00:55:52,207
But once you've seen it and seen how it works, you realize it works in a very simple manner.

694
00:55:52,347 --> 00:55:53,787
And that's why I think it fits to Noster.

695
00:55:54,687 --> 00:55:59,327
Because Noster is extremely elegant, simple solutions to complex problems.

696
00:56:00,147 --> 00:56:04,567
And I think Alexandria is just taking it to a new level.

697
00:56:04,567 --> 00:56:13,267
the way i think about the spec is that if the regular micro blogging clients have a kind zero

698
00:56:13,267 --> 00:56:19,967
which is the data or the metadata for the user and then they have kind one which are these short

699
00:56:19,967 --> 00:56:26,447
note tweets and you can see that as the feed that kind of they they just chain down you have a top

700
00:56:26,447 --> 00:56:33,387
level comment and then comments underneath that and i took inspiration from that where there is a

701
00:56:33,387 --> 00:56:36,667
the index kind, 300, 4, 0.

702
00:56:37,627 --> 00:56:41,687
And that is, you can think of that as the metadata for the article,

703
00:56:42,087 --> 00:56:48,667
which contains all the hashtags and other descriptive level of the full article.

704
00:56:49,127 --> 00:56:55,787
And then contained within that are the equivalent to the short notes

705
00:56:55,787 --> 00:57:02,007
or the content events, 300, 4, 1, which that's where the sections will lie.

706
00:57:02,007 --> 00:57:07,307
And you can essentially take articles and embed them into other articles.

707
00:57:07,407 --> 00:57:15,287
So that way you can start building them out of almost like Legos into something much larger.

708
00:57:16,627 --> 00:57:28,767
And, you know, Liminald, if I were to apply this, the index card analogy and everything you're talking about, right, to books of fiction, it doesn't make that much sense.

709
00:57:28,947 --> 00:57:31,387
I mean, sure, someone could try and do it.

710
00:57:31,387 --> 00:57:37,827
However, there seems to be a use case where it makes a lot of sense for.

711
00:57:38,367 --> 00:57:43,687
And I think for that, we will turn to Emma to talk about MedScholar.

712
00:57:46,747 --> 00:57:47,387
Yes.

713
00:57:47,387 --> 00:57:58,887
So MedScholar draws on the idea that learning knowledge and evidence is crucial for health care.

714
00:57:58,887 --> 00:58:06,327
It helps to inform decision-making, understanding our bodies, treatments, and so there's various

715
00:58:06,327 --> 00:58:11,007
types of evidence, as we know, in health care.

716
00:58:11,007 --> 00:58:26,471
So you have guidelines for example that provide information around how to treat and prevent disease There systematic reviews and meta which essentially take a research question on a health topic

717
00:58:26,471 --> 00:58:30,271
and pool statistical data

718
00:58:30,271 --> 00:58:34,591
and essentially tries to find associations.

719
00:58:35,091 --> 00:58:37,031
There's protocols, clinical trials,

720
00:58:37,771 --> 00:58:40,971
and I would also add there's also wisdom and experience.

721
00:58:40,971 --> 00:58:53,871
You know, there's historical documents, landmark documents that are just crucial for the understanding of health care and public health.

722
00:58:54,031 --> 00:58:59,491
And Avi, as you said in your sermon at the beginning, knowledge yearns to be free.

723
00:59:00,211 --> 00:59:07,891
And unfortunately, health and medical knowledge has not been fully free.

724
00:59:07,891 --> 00:59:22,971
It's been censored, skewed as well by incentives, by corporations and different funding mechanisms, whether that be at the federal level or local level.

725
00:59:22,971 --> 00:59:36,471
And all of this has, I would say, has unfortunately encouraged a lack of public trust, which has been documented in the health care and scientific literature.

726
00:59:36,471 --> 00:59:47,671
and also because prevention in health care as well is not a big money maker we you could probably

727
00:59:47,671 --> 00:59:54,071
argue that you may not see a lot of prevention focused studies as compared to intervention

728
00:59:54,071 --> 01:00:01,511
studies and ultimately you know if we could focus on prevention you know stopping people from even

729
01:00:01,511 --> 01:00:07,271
having to frequent the healthcare system, I think that would be ideal.

730
01:00:07,491 --> 01:00:17,271
And I believe in a new knowledge-sharing system where individuals can mix and match information

731
01:00:17,271 --> 01:00:23,991
to their specific needs, I think this would be revolutionary.

732
01:00:23,991 --> 01:00:30,991
So with MedScholar, we really aim to change the way in which healthcare knowledge and

733
01:00:30,991 --> 01:00:41,711
sharing occurs. We hope that it remains to be uncensorable. Noster provides us with the tools

734
01:00:41,711 --> 01:00:47,691
to have that. And to also think about the publishing process, the academic publishing

735
01:00:47,691 --> 01:00:56,371
processes, because there's tons of biases there, publication bias. If you have no results from a

736
01:00:56,371 --> 01:01:02,211
study. I mean, that's still a finding, but typically in scientific literature, sometimes

737
01:01:02,211 --> 01:01:08,591
reviewers will not accept it because they think there's nothing interesting there. And I think

738
01:01:08,591 --> 01:01:14,531
that's a danger as well when we look at scientific evidence, especially when it's done on groups.

739
01:01:15,171 --> 01:01:21,451
There's something called an ecological fallacy. And so that's applying group findings to individual

740
01:01:21,451 --> 01:01:29,891
cases. And so, you know, as consumers of information, we look at, you know, some of these

741
01:01:29,891 --> 01:01:37,971
articles, and you might hear like mainstream findings of X curing Y. But that might, that

742
01:01:37,971 --> 01:01:44,031
is probably drawn maybe from a group data and may not apply to you. So imagine if you had more tools

743
01:01:44,031 --> 01:01:54,051
at your disposal to find health information. And there's been some fascinating, I would say,

744
01:01:54,051 --> 01:02:02,011
literature that has been curated on NOSTER itself. So I'm not sure if people know, but there's

745
01:02:02,011 --> 01:02:11,691
runningapollo.com. And this is an effort that essentially came together with people that were

746
01:02:11,691 --> 01:02:15,451
passionate about lower extremity health.

747
01:02:16,011 --> 01:02:17,951
And following the Bitcoin ethos,

748
01:02:18,051 --> 01:02:21,691
they developed a white paper centered around prevention.

749
01:02:23,351 --> 01:02:30,551
And essentially, they have a GitHub dedicated to this effort.

750
01:02:30,951 --> 01:02:33,991
And they're encouraging consensus,

751
01:02:34,651 --> 01:02:37,111
kind of like we do that's done in Bitcoin.

752
01:02:37,111 --> 01:02:57,491
And I really highlight this case because I think this could be a new way, and I think the Alexandra framework really could build a nice foundation for the way in which we try and come to consensus or review healthcare and peer-reviewed literature.

753
01:02:57,491 --> 01:03:08,171
and I think we're really opening up potential new doors here, how clinicians, researchers,

754
01:03:08,531 --> 01:03:13,271
health enthusiasts can interact with health information that really empowers the individual

755
01:03:13,271 --> 01:03:20,551
and then also allows for open discussion and, you know, down the line we hope MedScholar

756
01:03:20,551 --> 01:03:23,951
can have additional AI features,

757
01:03:23,951 --> 01:03:29,711
and there could be real-time kind of crowdfunded discourse as well.

758
01:03:30,531 --> 01:03:32,971
So you as a user could also see,

759
01:03:33,151 --> 01:03:34,671
what is the most current information?

760
01:03:34,911 --> 01:03:37,891
Does this apply to me, for example?

761
01:03:39,591 --> 01:03:42,291
So that's kind of like a general overview,

762
01:03:42,651 --> 01:03:49,251
and we're really trying to build out MedScholar in the months ahead.

763
01:03:49,911 --> 01:03:53,931
So let's talk about a simple user journey here, Emma.

764
01:03:54,231 --> 01:03:57,311
A user goes to MedScholar and wants to use it.

765
01:03:57,611 --> 01:03:59,971
First of all, what is their persona?

766
01:04:00,291 --> 01:04:01,631
Are they a clinician?

767
01:04:02,171 --> 01:04:07,351
Are they more likely to be a clinician or a patient or whatever it is?

768
01:04:07,351 --> 01:04:13,231
And then depending on who they are, what can they do on the MedScholar website?

769
01:04:14,391 --> 01:04:17,851
Yeah, so right now we have a closed relay.

770
01:04:17,851 --> 01:04:28,411
and we are working through badging so that we can have a small user base at

771
01:04:28,411 --> 01:04:33,111
the start of people who are familiar with like the scientific literature

772
01:04:33,111 --> 01:04:39,911
getting into the sausage making of peer-reviewed evidence and so

773
01:04:39,911 --> 01:04:46,671
So essentially that user group would be that type of persona.

774
01:04:47,371 --> 01:04:54,271
And basically, I think one idea would be they can view literature.

775
01:04:54,751 --> 01:05:04,611
They'll be able to comment on it and kind of just play around to see how we could move this forward for a larger kind of peer review.

776
01:05:04,611 --> 01:05:16,131
So potentially in the future, maybe you can have journals using or subscribing to MedScholar and using the infrastructure to guide their peer-reviewed processes potentially.

777
01:05:16,891 --> 01:05:22,191
And then hopefully also, but also now, you could also be a reader as well.

778
01:05:23,371 --> 01:05:29,031
And so readers also could follow the content that they're interested in.

779
01:05:30,011 --> 01:05:34,631
How do these journals get onto MedScholar in the first place?

780
01:05:34,711 --> 01:05:36,311
Especially today, right?

781
01:05:36,351 --> 01:05:39,911
What if they're paywalled behind one of those publications?

782
01:05:40,851 --> 01:05:43,891
How does one get them out of there and get them into MedScholar?

783
01:05:44,571 --> 01:05:48,611
So at this time, we've been uploading,

784
01:05:49,351 --> 01:05:53,031
I'll say particularly, Manol has been uploading articles.

785
01:05:54,131 --> 01:05:56,611
So, for example, for peer-reviewed articles,

786
01:05:56,611 --> 01:06:02,851
we have like external DOIs that you can access the full article.

787
01:06:03,651 --> 01:06:08,991
And there's a few historical documents on there as well, too.

788
01:06:09,191 --> 01:06:13,771
So right now, it's just a small team of people.

789
01:06:14,031 --> 01:06:19,071
But hopefully in the future, especially when we can get the badging process going,

790
01:06:19,251 --> 01:06:22,091
then other people can upload as well.

791
01:06:23,031 --> 01:06:24,971
And who will be the...

792
01:06:24,971 --> 01:06:25,091
Oh, yeah.

793
01:06:25,331 --> 01:06:26,511
Just a quick question there.

794
01:06:26,511 --> 01:06:27,891
Who is the badge issuer?

795
01:06:29,711 --> 01:06:33,891
Yeah, maybe, Lin-Manuel, I'll swing that one to you.

796
01:06:34,891 --> 01:06:41,071
Yeah, so in terms of badging, MedScholar as an organization is,

797
01:06:42,131 --> 01:06:52,991
they will determine what type of content and hierarchy that they want within this community.

798
01:06:52,991 --> 01:06:58,991
There will be medical professionals or just content communicators.

799
01:06:59,771 --> 01:07:01,271
They will have their own roles.

800
01:07:01,851 --> 01:07:08,051
And then the public that isn't credentialed, if they're curious, they can go into MedScholar, ask questions,

801
01:07:08,411 --> 01:07:18,711
and be directly in communication with those who have the background and the knowledge of – and have that medical knowledge.

802
01:07:20,851 --> 01:07:21,531
Yeah.

803
01:07:22,991 --> 01:07:26,251
gotcha

804
01:07:26,251 --> 01:07:29,791
and the other

805
01:07:29,791 --> 01:07:32,071
part that I wanted to say is that

806
01:07:32,071 --> 01:07:34,031
for paywalled content specifically

807
01:07:34,031 --> 01:07:35,591
what we

808
01:07:35,591 --> 01:07:38,191
did is that we're not going

809
01:07:38,191 --> 01:07:40,111
to take paywalled content

810
01:07:40,111 --> 01:07:41,891
and host it on

811
01:07:41,891 --> 01:07:44,091
whether it's Alexandria

812
01:07:44,091 --> 01:07:46,131
or MedScholar but what you can do

813
01:07:46,131 --> 01:07:47,371
is you can take

814
01:07:47,371 --> 01:07:50,091
the structure of the events that

815
01:07:50,091 --> 01:07:51,971
we have where the

816
01:07:51,971 --> 01:07:58,591
title of that article and the link to where it originally comes from, but underneath it are

817
01:07:58,591 --> 01:08:05,691
placeholders. You can have the introduction, the methods, et cetera, all the sections of that paper,

818
01:08:05,691 --> 01:08:12,631
and they can be completely blank. But what happens is that users and professionals can comment on

819
01:08:12,631 --> 01:08:19,651
those specific sections. So that way, instead of actually having the full content there,

820
01:08:19,651 --> 01:08:23,711
the papers and the knowledge can still be talked about

821
01:08:23,711 --> 01:08:26,931
and engaged with both professionals and the public.

822
01:08:31,391 --> 01:08:32,471
Makes sense.

823
01:08:33,171 --> 01:08:36,131
I want to move to another topic.

824
01:08:36,231 --> 01:08:38,551
I think this is a really comprehensive overview

825
01:08:38,551 --> 01:08:41,571
of the umbrella, Get Citadel,

826
01:08:42,051 --> 01:08:43,711
then the focused Alexandria,

827
01:08:43,911 --> 01:08:46,351
then the even more focused application

828
01:08:46,351 --> 01:08:48,771
of the Alexandria framework.

829
01:08:48,771 --> 01:08:53,011
if you don't mind saying so, Libinal, in Med Scholar.

830
01:08:53,531 --> 01:08:55,391
I think that was very helpful for folks.

831
01:08:56,391 --> 01:09:02,451
But it does appear to me, and maybe Chip, I'll turn this to you,

832
01:09:04,571 --> 01:09:08,591
the Git Citadel team seems to be working in a vacuum,

833
01:09:08,971 --> 01:09:11,831
or not in a vacuum, on an island by themselves.

834
01:09:11,831 --> 01:09:16,671
There is sort of this, at least as someone who's logging onto NOSTA

835
01:09:16,671 --> 01:09:19,511
and you see that you have your standard influencers

836
01:09:19,511 --> 01:09:20,251
who are everywhere.

837
01:09:20,851 --> 01:09:22,991
And then every now and then you see, you know,

838
01:09:23,051 --> 01:09:25,491
Liminal or Stella or someone post something

839
01:09:25,491 --> 01:09:27,171
about what's happening.

840
01:09:27,371 --> 01:09:30,251
And from the outside, it appears like it's happening

841
01:09:30,251 --> 01:09:31,331
on an island.

842
01:09:31,571 --> 01:09:34,551
So Chip, would you agree with that characterization?

843
01:09:35,191 --> 01:09:37,311
And if you do, why do you think that is?

844
01:09:38,091 --> 01:09:40,711
In a way, I think it has become that.

845
01:09:41,351 --> 01:09:52,734
I don know if you remember over how many times over the years on Nostra we talk about kind one being dead and how um you know how development chat happens here and most of the time we kind of the

846
01:09:52,734 --> 01:10:00,114
the rabble rousers of of what are we using Nostra for if we're not going to be developing

847
01:10:00,114 --> 01:10:05,374
using Nostra right but I mean is most of the conversation about how Nostra is built happens

848
01:10:05,374 --> 01:10:08,594
still on a GitHub discussions page, right?

849
01:10:09,094 --> 01:10:11,594
And our kind of, you know,

850
01:10:11,634 --> 01:10:13,154
what we make the most noise about

851
01:10:13,154 --> 01:10:14,774
is getting off of that

852
01:10:14,774 --> 01:10:16,654
and actually using this decentralized protocol

853
01:10:16,654 --> 01:10:18,534
that we built to build itself, right?

854
01:10:18,554 --> 01:10:20,434
To maintain itself, to chat, to speak.

855
01:10:20,434 --> 01:10:23,674
And we often have had that kind of discussion

856
01:10:23,674 --> 01:10:24,674
out in the public.

857
01:10:24,814 --> 01:10:25,854
Most of our dev chat was,

858
01:10:26,294 --> 01:10:27,954
but it turns out threading's not great.

859
01:10:28,174 --> 01:10:30,074
Just overall conversations happening on Noster

860
01:10:30,074 --> 01:10:31,774
with the clients and tools we have now

861
01:10:31,774 --> 01:10:32,534
aren't fantastic.

862
01:10:32,794 --> 01:10:35,254
And we have had to fall back multiple times

863
01:10:35,254 --> 01:10:42,754
to different tools, whether it's Slack or, you know, Signal Chats or, you know, SimpleX Chats,

864
01:10:42,834 --> 01:10:47,334
et cetera. They just kind of scatter all over the place. And so we've kind of moved to, well,

865
01:10:47,594 --> 01:10:51,654
Git, right? Stella was just kind of like, guys, we need to get this done. So now most of our

866
01:10:51,654 --> 01:10:56,594
dev chat, if it's not public, which most oftentimes it is when we're brainstorming,

867
01:10:56,734 --> 01:11:01,874
just out on Noster, but it ends up happening to be on our own internal Git servers, right?

868
01:11:01,874 --> 01:11:05,994
So that's where most of our discussion in terms of our projects happen.

869
01:11:06,074 --> 01:11:12,674
However, all of, say, Project Alexander is completely public right now on mirrors such as GitHub, right?

870
01:11:13,594 --> 01:11:21,334
And at one point it was heavily published on Noster, but that, you know, certain tools that we were using, you know, don't really allow for that to happen right now.

871
01:11:22,034 --> 01:11:31,574
But that is kind of the plan where we expect, you know, we're going to have internal chats about how Git Citadel is going to function and how, you know, we're going to be developing products.

872
01:11:31,874 --> 01:11:36,034
but as far as how the development process of a particular product goes,

873
01:11:36,334 --> 01:11:38,314
more than likely we end up being public when it can be.

874
01:11:39,134 --> 01:11:43,334
That said, I think Git Citadel is kind of in a position,

875
01:11:43,914 --> 01:11:46,454
and I think I can speak for the whole team on this when I say

876
01:11:46,454 --> 01:11:50,394
we put ourselves between sort of like the legacy world

877
01:11:50,394 --> 01:11:55,314
and what this kind of idea of the Nostra kind of utopia is, right?

878
01:11:55,354 --> 01:12:00,554
Which happens to be, you know, I think oftentimes a little too much of a,

879
01:12:00,554 --> 01:12:04,234
not particularly grounded in where we're trying to go.

880
01:12:04,374 --> 01:12:06,514
We need to be able to get these legacy institutions

881
01:12:06,514 --> 01:12:09,894
onto a more usable platform for them

882
01:12:09,894 --> 01:12:11,294
without them losing everything,

883
01:12:11,534 --> 01:12:14,034
like trying to avoid as much loss aversion as we can

884
01:12:14,034 --> 01:12:15,814
where we have these publications,

885
01:12:15,814 --> 01:12:18,714
but we need to be able to control who writes them.

886
01:12:18,854 --> 01:12:21,914
And we need to have some sort of chain of trust

887
01:12:21,914 --> 01:12:24,774
and some type of legacy infrastructure

888
01:12:24,774 --> 01:12:28,014
bridged to the world of Nostra

889
01:12:28,014 --> 01:12:29,074
because we have these tools.

890
01:12:29,074 --> 01:12:30,794
we often joke about

891
01:12:30,794 --> 01:12:33,194
say our 9 to 5s of man why am I

892
01:12:33,194 --> 01:12:35,094
building this database or why am I building this tool

893
01:12:35,094 --> 01:12:37,114
when it could easily be replaced with the tools

894
01:12:37,114 --> 01:12:37,794
we have on Noster

895
01:12:37,794 --> 01:12:41,114
so the idea is getting those tools in

896
01:12:41,114 --> 01:12:43,274
place where legacy systems kind of don't really

897
01:12:43,274 --> 01:12:44,714
understand need or want

898
01:12:44,714 --> 01:12:47,454
the tools that Noster kind of provides

899
01:12:47,454 --> 01:12:49,454
so trying to bridge

900
01:12:49,454 --> 01:12:51,154
that gap I think is one of our

901
01:12:51,154 --> 01:12:53,254
biggest goals as

902
01:12:53,254 --> 01:12:54,074
an organization

903
01:12:54,074 --> 01:12:56,174
yeah

904
01:12:56,174 --> 01:12:59,414
I think that that has been

905
01:12:59,414 --> 01:13:00,934
I'll go ahead still

906
01:13:00,934 --> 01:13:03,274
keep butting in sorry

907
01:13:03,274 --> 01:13:05,514
no that's good

908
01:13:05,514 --> 01:13:07,014
please interject

909
01:13:07,014 --> 01:13:09,554
I think that's

910
01:13:09,554 --> 01:13:11,154
something that

911
01:13:11,154 --> 01:13:12,914
you touched on

912
01:13:12,914 --> 01:13:15,454
that has made it a bit

913
01:13:15,454 --> 01:13:17,494
isolating for us because our

914
01:13:17,494 --> 01:13:18,974
target market is not

915
01:13:18,974 --> 01:13:21,634
anything like what the target market

916
01:13:21,634 --> 01:13:23,754
is for almost all other Nostra products

917
01:13:23,754 --> 01:13:25,474
most Nostra products are business

918
01:13:25,474 --> 01:13:28,714
to consumer or consumer to consumer products.

919
01:13:29,534 --> 01:13:37,294
And we are very much targeting, like Chip said, organizations that are using legacy systems

920
01:13:37,294 --> 01:13:43,934
to move them on to more modern communication channels, which means we're more in the business

921
01:13:43,934 --> 01:13:52,934
to business market, which is probably the reason why we haven't been as, how do I say,

922
01:13:52,934 --> 01:14:00,134
persistent in pursuing something like an OpenSats grant or something, because we're looking to,

923
01:14:00,134 --> 01:14:09,214
first of all, stay extremely independent and also to have our own management, to manage ourselves,

924
01:14:09,454 --> 01:14:16,314
to be seen as not part of somebody else's organization, but our own, because we want

925
01:14:16,314 --> 01:14:21,254
to be able to talk at the same level as our customers. And our customers are professors

926
01:14:21,254 --> 01:14:25,934
at universities, our customers are people who are working at the Department of Education,

927
01:14:26,174 --> 01:14:31,894
picking out curriculum for the schools, people who work at large churches that are spread around

928
01:14:31,894 --> 01:14:38,334
and need a way to communicate with all the people in the Bible study, people working at hospitals,

929
01:14:38,894 --> 01:14:45,354
people working at, you know, Fortune 500 companies. I have no problem talking with them. I'm used to

930
01:14:45,354 --> 01:14:53,474
them. But it means that a lot of what we're building is not really part of the original

931
01:14:53,474 --> 01:14:59,654
sort of nostril focus. And that has been a bit isolating. And we don't notice or mind that

932
01:14:59,654 --> 01:15:05,334
anymore, because we're just so many people in Gidsaville itself, that we can have really long,

933
01:15:05,614 --> 01:15:12,534
lively conversations with 10 people or whatever for hours, off in our own corner. And so we forget

934
01:15:12,534 --> 01:15:15,094
that we are off in a corner.

935
01:15:15,494 --> 01:15:18,754
And I see it then sometimes in the Kind1 threads.

936
01:15:18,754 --> 01:15:21,434
If I post something, I'm well aware of the fact

937
01:15:21,434 --> 01:15:23,894
that I have maybe 6,000 followers.

938
01:15:24,594 --> 01:15:26,574
And most of the other people posting about their software

939
01:15:26,574 --> 01:15:30,474
have more like 60,000 or 200,000 followers

940
01:15:30,474 --> 01:15:33,354
because it's just, there's so many more people interested

941
01:15:33,354 --> 01:15:39,634
in a Kind1 thread app than in a knowledge base

942
01:15:39,634 --> 01:15:40,814
for scientific research papers.

943
01:15:40,814 --> 01:15:49,114
It's just a level of abstraction and complexity higher than almost anything else out there because it has a different target group.

944
01:15:50,494 --> 01:15:51,414
But I think that's okay.

945
01:15:51,794 --> 01:15:56,114
Stella, could I ask, is that something you wish you'd like to change?

946
01:15:57,914 --> 01:16:01,934
Be more integrated into the NOSTA ecosystem?

947
01:16:04,514 --> 01:16:05,774
You know, I have to.

948
01:16:05,774 --> 01:16:06,654
At a cultural level.

949
01:16:06,834 --> 01:16:08,394
Sorry, that's what I meant to say.

950
01:16:08,394 --> 01:16:13,314
At a cultural level, do you feel like you want to be more integrated into the NOSTA ecosystem?

951
01:16:14,714 --> 01:16:15,974
I did at the beginning.

952
01:16:16,574 --> 01:16:20,094
But again, you know, we weren't invited to the parties.

953
01:16:20,194 --> 01:16:21,094
We started our own party.

954
01:16:21,194 --> 01:16:23,414
And now we have this whole meetup culture.

955
01:16:24,174 --> 01:16:29,334
And I feel really emotionally connected to those people because we sit together.

956
01:16:29,814 --> 01:16:31,034
We go for walks.

957
01:16:31,314 --> 01:16:36,814
We stay overnight in the house together out in the country and just talk about NOSTA or code together.

958
01:16:36,814 --> 01:16:42,694
and we have these like multi-day house parties.

959
01:16:43,814 --> 01:16:46,554
Maybe we were talking about maybe having one next year

960
01:16:46,554 --> 01:16:47,894
near Prague conference

961
01:16:47,894 --> 01:16:49,914
because we have some people in Czech Republic

962
01:16:49,914 --> 01:16:52,514
who are really interested in joining our meetup

963
01:16:52,514 --> 01:16:53,534
and the conference.

964
01:16:53,934 --> 01:16:55,994
And it's like, can't you rent a house near the conference?

965
01:16:56,134 --> 01:16:57,134
That kind of thing.

966
01:16:57,194 --> 01:16:59,734
And it's, I feel really connected to Nasser,

967
01:16:59,834 --> 01:17:02,514
but it's not necessary to the people everyone else knows.

968
01:17:03,094 --> 01:17:05,054
I feel connected to the normal users,

969
01:17:05,054 --> 01:17:09,854
to the small devs like us who don't have,

970
01:17:10,994 --> 01:17:13,034
I mean, maybe we won't always be small devs,

971
01:17:13,094 --> 01:17:17,154
but at the moment we're kind of just hacking away in our free time.

972
01:17:17,394 --> 01:17:18,794
I feel very connected.

973
01:17:19,734 --> 01:17:22,854
Do you feel, Stella, that there are gatekeepers in Noster culture?

974
01:17:23,894 --> 01:17:25,674
Oh, it's getting political now.

975
01:17:27,514 --> 01:17:28,394
Bring it on.

976
01:17:28,394 --> 01:17:39,454
I think some of Noster has been politically captured, but I think that's normal.

977
01:17:40,014 --> 01:17:40,994
It was like that with the internet.

978
01:17:41,374 --> 01:17:42,794
It's like that with email.

979
01:17:42,794 --> 01:17:50,694
Any new network is going to have bigger players who try to corner parts of the network, hire all the devs.

980
01:17:52,094 --> 01:17:58,114
I can't even say I'm doing something different because I'm just trying to get my own little section of the network.

981
01:17:58,394 --> 01:17:59,654
and work that.

982
01:18:00,434 --> 01:18:04,154
And I think that's a good thing.

983
01:18:04,714 --> 01:18:06,614
I think the problem Nasser was having for a while

984
01:18:06,614 --> 01:18:08,094
is that there was only one player.

985
01:18:08,254 --> 01:18:09,654
And now there's multiple players.

986
01:18:09,814 --> 01:18:11,634
I think there are going to be more players coming in.

987
01:18:11,934 --> 01:18:13,694
And I think in German we say,

988
01:18:13,874 --> 01:18:15,334
Konkurrenz, Belieb des Geschäft.

989
01:18:15,854 --> 01:18:17,934
So the competition's good for business.

990
01:18:18,154 --> 01:18:23,594
When there's more than one community of developers

991
01:18:23,594 --> 01:18:25,314
and they're all competing

992
01:18:25,314 --> 01:18:27,574
and they're all targeting different markets,

993
01:18:27,574 --> 01:18:35,594
that's when NOSTER is going to really grow is when it's harder to become famous it's harder

994
01:18:35,594 --> 01:18:41,734
to sell your product it's harder to get a scholarship or a grant or funding because

995
01:18:41,734 --> 01:18:47,594
there's just so much competition that's really when things are alive because being alive means

996
01:18:47,594 --> 01:18:53,734
fighting means means struggling and until now there was a little bit too little of that it was

997
01:18:53,734 --> 01:18:59,974
too much hand-holding. And I feel like maybe it's my insatiable libertarian side, but I feel like

998
01:18:59,974 --> 01:19:05,154
we just needed more fight. We needed people who were in the mud, slugging it out, you know,

999
01:19:05,254 --> 01:19:10,994
the best man to win. And of course, if you make the network big enough, everyone can win, right?

1000
01:19:11,374 --> 01:19:16,034
We need to expand the target market, which is what we're trying to do.

1001
01:19:16,794 --> 01:19:22,474
You know, it's interesting you put it that way, Stella, because maybe setting aside the B2B use

1002
01:19:22,474 --> 01:19:27,994
case, which I suppose you're focused on, right? But if you look at the more general publicly

1003
01:19:27,994 --> 01:19:34,554
accessible purple pill, which is mostly the kind one, and, you know, some of the related

1004
01:19:34,554 --> 01:19:41,374
social use cases like music, like whatever. I mean, there was a food one for a while,

1005
01:19:41,374 --> 01:19:51,014
right? And others. One of the selling points of NOSTA for those sort of more socially oriented

1006
01:19:51,014 --> 01:19:54,974
B2C use cases is it is the happiest place on the internet.

1007
01:19:56,134 --> 01:20:02,094
And I think the case you're making is there needs to be some rancor, you think, for growth

1008
01:20:02,094 --> 01:20:02,634
to happen.

1009
01:20:04,514 --> 01:20:05,034
Definitely.

1010
01:20:05,734 --> 01:20:11,134
I mean, what being happy and chill does is make everyone relaxed and everyone goes and

1011
01:20:11,134 --> 01:20:13,554
takes a nap and they cuddle.

1012
01:20:14,194 --> 01:20:15,814
But that's not activity, right?

1013
01:20:15,874 --> 01:20:16,434
That's sleeping.

1014
01:20:16,834 --> 01:20:20,994
And it's a great place to go and have a nap, but that doesn't keep people coming back.

1015
01:20:21,014 --> 01:20:23,734
and it doesn't feel like a tool, right?

1016
01:20:24,674 --> 01:20:27,594
Just being able to touch grass together is nice.

1017
01:20:27,734 --> 01:20:28,794
I love doing that.

1018
01:20:29,274 --> 01:20:34,174
But I also want to bring Noster into like real life,

1019
01:20:34,434 --> 01:20:37,814
like into the workplace, into the church,

1020
01:20:38,354 --> 01:20:43,434
into the hospitals, into schools, into homeschools.

1021
01:20:43,494 --> 01:20:45,414
I mean, homeschooling is a huge market

1022
01:20:45,414 --> 01:20:48,194
that Alexandria could be really interesting for.

1023
01:20:48,894 --> 01:20:50,634
But also engineering departments,

1024
01:20:51,014 --> 01:20:56,114
They have a lot of technical specifications they have to do peer reviews on.

1025
01:20:56,114 --> 01:21:00,334
It's not just a scientific thing, it's also an engineering topic.

1026
01:21:00,334 --> 01:21:06,294
There's so much out there that we could, so much market that we could expand into.

1027
01:21:06,294 --> 01:21:19,837
And as long as everyone just sharing cat pictures and hug emojis in kind one it not going to expand the market And what you see in other protocols that have come up which I don think are as good as Nostre

1028
01:21:20,037 --> 01:21:23,157
is what they got is they also got new applications,

1029
01:21:23,537 --> 01:21:26,297
new implementations, new markets.

1030
01:21:26,877 --> 01:21:32,117
I mean, at my work, they have a Mastodon instance

1031
01:21:32,117 --> 01:21:34,417
where people from the work post, you know,

1032
01:21:34,437 --> 01:21:36,457
when they go on vacation, they post their vacation pictures

1033
01:21:36,457 --> 01:21:37,777
and it shows up in the intranet.

1034
01:21:37,777 --> 01:21:40,237
And it's kind of like, you know, Noster could do that too, right?

1035
01:21:41,117 --> 01:21:45,237
Why aren't we aiming to get into the corporate internet scene?

1036
01:21:45,417 --> 01:21:47,537
That's a huge market too, right?

1037
01:21:48,617 --> 01:21:50,997
We're not, we have a better tech sack,

1038
01:21:51,237 --> 01:21:58,677
but we need people who are motivated to expand the market beyond the Twitter feed.

1039
01:21:58,817 --> 01:21:59,757
I love the Twitter feed.

1040
01:21:59,817 --> 01:22:00,637
I'm on there all the time.

1041
01:22:01,717 --> 01:22:03,297
But that's not everything.

1042
01:22:03,477 --> 01:22:04,757
I can't just be the end of it.

1043
01:22:04,757 --> 01:22:08,717
And I want to zap books.

1044
01:22:09,097 --> 01:22:12,777
I want to zap recipes.

1045
01:22:13,317 --> 01:22:19,237
I mean, one of the reasons I think the other recipe site had trouble staying is they didn't have our index.

1046
01:22:20,097 --> 01:22:22,797
So the recipes were just long form notes.

1047
01:22:22,877 --> 01:22:23,677
It was too complex.

1048
01:22:23,797 --> 01:22:25,017
They needed a different kind of kind.

1049
01:22:26,157 --> 01:22:29,117
But, you know, these are all things that we're going to work on.

1050
01:22:30,517 --> 01:22:32,837
And I also I feel like that's not adversarial.

1051
01:22:32,837 --> 01:22:37,577
or maybe I'm used to being in professional environment and heavy industry and logistics

1052
01:22:37,577 --> 01:22:44,397
medicine where there is competition in the market. You know, which hospital gives you the

1053
01:22:44,397 --> 01:22:50,737
best service? Which engineering company builds the best toaster? Which logistics company gets

1054
01:22:50,737 --> 01:22:55,337
that truck there on time to deliver the goods right when you need it for your production chain?

1055
01:22:56,217 --> 01:23:02,697
I'm used to that motivation and I think it's a healthy one. And I think too much of Nostra

1056
01:23:02,697 --> 01:23:05,537
was very down on the idea of competition.

1057
01:23:06,937 --> 01:23:10,477
But I'm a big believer in competition

1058
01:23:10,477 --> 01:23:12,337
being very good for humanity

1059
01:23:12,337 --> 01:23:14,957
because it gives us innovation

1060
01:23:14,957 --> 01:23:16,637
and it gives us motivation.

1061
01:23:19,657 --> 01:23:23,137
Can I ask where Alexandria, the name, came from?

1062
01:23:24,517 --> 01:23:26,357
I think that came from me, right?

1063
01:23:28,317 --> 01:23:29,817
Yes, that came from Stella.

1064
01:23:29,817 --> 01:23:35,717
well because i said you could use this to write any book and then i said and then we could have

1065
01:23:35,717 --> 01:23:40,717
put all the books in one place and it'd be like a library and i said you could have limitless books

1066
01:23:40,717 --> 01:23:45,517
because of the distributed library so there's no limit to the number of books you could have

1067
01:23:45,517 --> 01:23:51,397
you'd only be limited in the amount of time you'd wait to find a book when you search for one but

1068
01:23:51,397 --> 01:23:57,317
that's it and it could be like the new world library and then i think we call it alexandria

1069
01:23:57,317 --> 01:24:00,377
the other one burnt down, but this one can't be burnt down

1070
01:24:00,377 --> 01:24:01,937
because it's digital.

1071
01:24:02,237 --> 01:24:05,017
I hope you caught the reference in my sermon there, Stella.

1072
01:24:08,017 --> 01:24:09,277
To Alexandria.

1073
01:24:09,557 --> 01:24:12,197
Yeah, that's great.

1074
01:24:12,657 --> 01:24:16,217
I was going to point out the original Alexandria burnt down,

1075
01:24:16,497 --> 01:24:18,737
but to your point, this is digital.

1076
01:24:19,657 --> 01:24:22,337
The data can be mirrored and live on forever.

1077
01:24:22,337 --> 01:24:27,557
I think even before Alexandria was Bible stir, right?

1078
01:24:28,757 --> 01:24:30,137
And that's where I kind of got involved.

1079
01:24:31,617 --> 01:24:38,577
Well, Bible stir was our promise and we haven't forgotten it to some of the

1080
01:24:38,577 --> 01:24:41,997
people who were chipping in to the development costs of running the servers

1081
01:24:41,997 --> 01:24:49,857
and things for Alexandria, that the first big rollout that we would host,

1082
01:24:49,857 --> 01:24:56,677
because Alexandria is like the like you said the framework and you can have as many instances of

1083
01:24:56,677 --> 01:24:59,757
Alexandria and they can all have a different name they can all have a different website different

1084
01:24:59,757 --> 01:25:05,817
relay behind them and we have MedScholar now and in the future there will also be a Bible stir

1085
01:25:05,817 --> 01:25:09,977
which will be focused in the Bible and we thought this would be a really great

1086
01:25:09,977 --> 01:25:18,237
test instance for Alexandria's tech stack because the Bible has over 30,000 verses

1087
01:25:18,237 --> 01:25:24,437
and we've broken the Bible down into all of those 30,000 verses and chained them together into a

1088
01:25:24,437 --> 01:25:32,337
book and since the Bible is a library that's what it means it means library we decide that

1089
01:25:32,337 --> 01:25:37,877
would be the first library we would publish in full on Alexandria and we've done that in two

1090
01:25:37,877 --> 01:25:45,297
different versions the King James and the Dewey Rhymes version and that's that was really important

1091
01:25:45,297 --> 01:25:50,097
to me and to a lot of the other people who are working on the project or have been funding the

1092
01:25:50,097 --> 01:25:55,357
project because a lot of us started out in Noster and it's sort of like a Christian chat.

1093
01:25:56,597 --> 01:26:01,177
So we were always talking about we need to get the Bible on Noster so that we can quote verses

1094
01:26:01,177 --> 01:26:07,717
when we are writing kind one notes. And that's the next thing we can do is that we can take all

1095
01:26:07,717 --> 01:26:13,357
these, the stuff that you read in full in Alexandria, and then you can go into your

1096
01:26:13,357 --> 01:26:15,717
your Noster Kind One app

1097
01:26:15,717 --> 01:26:17,057
or your daily driver

1098
01:26:17,057 --> 01:26:18,297
or whatever you want to call it

1099
01:26:18,297 --> 01:26:21,577
and embed the verse directly.

1100
01:26:21,757 --> 01:26:22,577
And when people click on it,

1101
01:26:22,637 --> 01:26:24,397
they will then go to the full chapter

1102
01:26:24,397 --> 01:26:24,937
in the Bible.

1103
01:26:25,157 --> 01:26:27,577
And if they use the table of contents,

1104
01:26:27,577 --> 01:26:28,957
which is being developed right now

1105
01:26:28,957 --> 01:26:30,617
and looks pretty awesome so far,

1106
01:26:31,117 --> 01:26:33,897
they can then read other chapters

1107
01:26:33,897 --> 01:26:35,697
or they could read other translations

1108
01:26:35,697 --> 01:26:36,697
of the same chapter.

1109
01:26:36,837 --> 01:26:37,677
Because with Alexander,

1110
01:26:37,677 --> 01:26:39,957
you can navigate in depth

1111
01:26:39,957 --> 01:26:41,917
and in height.

1112
01:26:42,217 --> 01:26:43,337
So you can go both directions.

1113
01:26:43,357 --> 01:26:52,437
You can go deeper into a medical journal and find out more about the same topic in other papers, or you can go up and down inside of the same journal, right?

1114
01:26:53,097 --> 01:27:00,117
You always have the first, second, and third dimension on Alexandria to the information.

1115
01:27:01,557 --> 01:27:10,057
And once you put a library inside a library, there can be a case to be made that you are approaching the fourth dimension.

1116
01:27:10,057 --> 01:27:13,277
well that said

1117
01:27:13,277 --> 01:27:16,537
this is a great chat folks

1118
01:27:16,537 --> 01:27:17,857
QW do you have anything

1119
01:27:17,857 --> 01:27:20,517
nice nice Avi I like that

1120
01:27:20,517 --> 01:27:22,397
I like the fourth dimension 4D

1121
01:27:22,397 --> 01:27:24,337
anything else for our guests

1122
01:27:24,337 --> 01:27:25,077
QW

1123
01:27:25,077 --> 01:27:28,217
no

1124
01:27:28,217 --> 01:27:30,477
no that's it I mean if maybe we just

1125
01:27:30,477 --> 01:27:32,337
want to run down any last words

1126
01:27:32,337 --> 01:27:34,337
well why don't we do that

1127
01:27:34,337 --> 01:27:36,697
Liminal we'll start with you any closing thoughts

1128
01:27:36,697 --> 01:27:38,577
yeah so

1129
01:27:38,577 --> 01:27:50,837
So I was thinking about one of the, it was the first article that Stella wrote that named Alexandria.

1130
01:27:51,637 --> 01:27:54,797
And the last paragraph, I think, is just so beautiful.

1131
01:27:54,797 --> 01:28:00,737
It says, we're making a big, beautiful library, and you're going to build it for us.

1132
01:28:00,737 --> 01:28:12,297
Anyone, anywhere can therefore publish or republish any document they wish with Noster and store it wherever they have a relay and view it on any client willing to display it.

1133
01:28:12,877 --> 01:28:14,637
You will own something and be happy.

1134
01:28:17,737 --> 01:28:18,537
Love it.

1135
01:28:20,737 --> 01:28:23,117
Chip, any closing thoughts from you?

1136
01:28:24,197 --> 01:28:26,977
Yeah, well, I mean, first, of course, thank you for having us.

1137
01:28:26,977 --> 01:28:32,857
And the second is I think it's important to acknowledge where we're at from the people that have donated to us.

1138
01:28:33,617 --> 01:28:38,137
Right. Get Citadel has been sort of our time and effort running it.

1139
01:28:38,597 --> 01:28:44,157
And, of course, still involved a lot with that, has been funding directly from the public.

1140
01:28:44,297 --> 01:28:52,257
Right. So just plebs sending zaps and referencing our geyser fund for some of our projects.

1141
01:28:52,257 --> 01:28:58,077
They've been funding us directly for Project Alexandria, along with some of the other things we've been working on as well.

1142
01:28:58,677 --> 01:29:05,957
So I just want a big thank you to all the plebs in the Noster Space that has been pushing us forward and going to fund us in the future.

1143
01:29:08,377 --> 01:29:13,517
I'd be happy to put that geyser in the show notes, so I'll follow up with that afterwards.

1144
01:29:14,577 --> 01:29:17,257
And then Emma, any last thoughts?

1145
01:29:17,257 --> 01:29:21,537
Yeah, no, I really thought this was an enriching discussion.

1146
01:29:22,137 --> 01:29:27,137
And what I'm really excited for is just getting students involved.

1147
01:29:27,257 --> 01:29:31,497
I mentioned this at the NOS Fabrica Challenge call earlier today.

1148
01:29:32,337 --> 01:29:37,397
And, you know, we're really proud and thankful that we came in third place.

1149
01:29:37,397 --> 01:29:47,797
And, you know, the funds that we'll receive will go to new minds who I think will really contribute to MedScholar in particular.

1150
01:29:48,037 --> 01:29:58,977
And hopefully they catch the Noster bug and, you know, use it and see other use cases in the health and health care space and other ones.

1151
01:29:59,877 --> 01:30:03,017
So, yeah, I'm just really I'm really excited.

1152
01:30:03,277 --> 01:30:05,877
And again, thank you for having me here.

1153
01:30:05,877 --> 01:30:08,977
and congratulations on the third prize

1154
01:30:08,977 --> 01:30:11,477
for Med Scholar

1155
01:30:11,477 --> 01:30:13,277
on the Nosfabrica challenge

1156
01:30:13,277 --> 01:30:15,637
and Liminal

1157
01:30:15,637 --> 01:30:16,797
of course

1158
01:30:16,797 --> 01:30:18,857
Stella

1159
01:30:18,857 --> 01:30:20,617
closing thoughts

1160
01:30:20,617 --> 01:30:25,317
I was just

1161
01:30:25,317 --> 01:30:27,617
taken away

1162
01:30:27,617 --> 01:30:29,817
by what Liminal quoted

1163
01:30:29,817 --> 01:30:31,517
I'd forgotten that I'd written that

1164
01:30:31,517 --> 01:30:34,057
but it's exactly what motivates

1165
01:30:34,057 --> 01:30:34,897
me every day

1166
01:30:34,897 --> 01:30:38,197
because I want people to be free to speak their mind,

1167
01:30:38,637 --> 01:30:40,777
to share information, to associate with people

1168
01:30:40,777 --> 01:30:43,477
they want to speak with and communicate with

1169
01:30:43,477 --> 01:30:46,817
in real life and online and in documentation.

1170
01:30:47,537 --> 01:30:50,397
I want the free exchange of information.

1171
01:30:51,237 --> 01:30:53,937
I think that's so important for humanity more than ever.

1172
01:30:54,957 --> 01:30:59,357
And I'm just really grateful to be able to work on this project

1173
01:30:59,357 --> 01:31:04,217
and also to Emma that she added us

1174
01:31:04,217 --> 01:31:10,117
and asked as a helper because that's really an application totally up my alley.

1175
01:31:10,317 --> 01:31:13,817
It's really something I can really identify with.

1176
01:31:14,397 --> 01:31:16,157
And I'm having so much fun.

1177
01:31:17,217 --> 01:31:19,897
And I'm just grateful to be working on this stuff.

1178
01:31:20,037 --> 01:31:21,237
I think it's a beautiful project.

1179
01:31:22,057 --> 01:31:23,217
Thank you for having us.

1180
01:31:24,377 --> 01:31:29,957
I think one big takeaway is that you can get so many like-minded people

1181
01:31:29,957 --> 01:31:32,017
from different backgrounds

1182
01:31:32,017 --> 01:31:34,577
kind of come together

1183
01:31:34,577 --> 01:31:37,457
in a protocol like Noster.

1184
01:31:37,757 --> 01:31:39,237
And we see it time and time again

1185
01:31:39,237 --> 01:31:42,117
where we're in multiple time zones

1186
01:31:42,117 --> 01:31:44,777
and we're all working for the same common goal.

1187
01:31:44,777 --> 01:31:46,717
And that's freedom for the most part.

1188
01:31:51,657 --> 01:31:52,777
Anything else, Avi?

1189
01:31:53,057 --> 01:31:54,697
No, this is a great chat.

1190
01:31:54,957 --> 01:31:56,597
I want to thank our guests,

1191
01:31:57,317 --> 01:31:59,737
Stella, Liminal, Emma, and Chip.

1192
01:31:59,957 --> 01:32:02,037
for enlightening us,

1193
01:32:02,997 --> 01:32:05,417
exciting times with Alexandria,

1194
01:32:05,637 --> 01:32:06,217
Metzcala,

1195
01:32:06,797 --> 01:32:08,957
looking forward to what's ahead.

1196
01:32:10,357 --> 01:32:12,177
And to anyone listening,

1197
01:32:12,717 --> 01:32:13,957
it's too late now

1198
01:32:13,957 --> 01:32:18,457
because we've gotten to the end of the episode.

1199
01:32:18,817 --> 01:32:20,297
But maybe for the next episode,

1200
01:32:20,397 --> 01:32:21,457
you'd consider subscribing

1201
01:32:21,457 --> 01:32:23,757
so that you could get early access

1202
01:32:23,757 --> 01:32:27,437
and help support the show.

1203
01:32:27,437 --> 01:32:29,097
Thank you all for listening.

1204
01:32:29,957 --> 01:32:37,377
yes until next week uh we appreciate you all uh love you goodbye