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All right, we are live. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Thank God for Bitcoin

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podcast. My name is Jordan Bush. I'm the executive director of TGFB Media, which exists to help

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Christians understand and use Bitcoin for the glory of God and the good of people everywhere.

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Today, I have the immense privilege of hosting Eric Sammons on the podcast today. Eric, welcome.

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Thank you very much for having me, Jordan.

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This is exciting.

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Yeah, this is, I mean, there's just a number of different things that I,

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different ways that I found your work over the past few months

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and then just happened to get reached out to, you know, by your,

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I don't know if it's your publicist or somebody who's helping you,

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you know, advertise the book that you're, that we're going to speak about at length.

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So maybe for those who don't know,

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maybe you can kind of introduce yourself and what you do.

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Sure.

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So, I mean, as you mentioned, I wrote the book Moral Money.

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And basically right now I am the editor-in-chief of Crisis Magazine, which is a 43-year-old magazine that comes from a Catholic perspective.

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And it talks about politics.

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It talks about what's going on in the Catholic Church, about culture, things like that.

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It's a very conservative Catholic magazine.

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I've been doing that for about four years.

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For a number of years, so my background, undergrad, was actually in systems analysis with a concentration in economics.

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And I worked as a computer programmer and my own software development company for 15 years.

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But then I decided to get a master's degree in theology.

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And since I'm Catholic, I can't be a priest because I'm married.

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So I was like, okay, well, I did want to put that knowledge to work.

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So I actually ended up working directly for a bishop as his director of evangelization for five years down in Florida.

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And so that was just a matter of trying to evangelize.

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I mean, in the Catholic world, a lot of times evangelization means trying to evangelize the people in the pews.

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I mean, a little bit sad, but it's true that sometimes people who are in the pews don't really, I don't want to say don't know Jesus, but like, you know, I kind of, sometimes you kind of feel like that.

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And so I was trying to help them do that.

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So I've done a number of things, as you can tell, over the years.

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But I start off in technology, move to more theology and working for the church.

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And that's kind of what I'm doing now with Crisis Magazine is trying to help our readers to really understand what's going on in the wider culture, in politics, in the church, and just kind of help them along with that.

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Love it. Yeah. And I'm here on your website, ericsamons.com. You can go find it there. You also got your master's degree in theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville. You know, you got your regular degree from Miami University.

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You've written for a bunch of websites, including OnePeter5, Catholic Answers, CrisisMagazine, AntiWar.com, TheFederist, CatholicVote, and Bitcoin.com.

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So you've had articles kind of all over the place, ranging a variety of topics.

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Again, you are one of the few, the proud, the people willing to discuss Bitcoin and theology.

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So we are friends in that regard.

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So I guess kind of I want to know, first of all, how did you get into Bitcoin?

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what was your initial level of interest in Bitcoin and has that you know the interest in it changed

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over time deepened lessened what kind of has that process looked like for you yeah I really I had

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like my backstory before I heard about Bitcoin even predates Bitcoin itself because in the early

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2000s I was just I was working like I said as a software developer back then but I really had a

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real interest in economics and I was reading a lot of Austrian economics uh Tom Woods I was reading

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him. He's written a lot of good stuff about this and some others, Peter Schiff, others.

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And I really came to the conclusion that our fiat money system was immoral. Like that was like a

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big deal to me. That was like, when I realized, oh my goodness, this is not just like, it's not

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just bad or whatever. It's actually fundamentally immoral. And so when I, and I, and I thought,

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okay, gold is moral. And I was like, this is great. I found a moral system, a moral monetary

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system. The problem though, of course, was Amazon didn't take gold. Nobody got it. And so I was like,

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and I kind of felt like in my mind, and this was probably like in the 2000s, maybe early 2010s,

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I was like, this is too bad that we have a fiat system that's very efficient, very useful,

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but it's completely immoral. And then we have a gold that is very moral, but honestly, in today's

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world, it just doesn't work. And so I just was like, oh my, I thought maybe we should go back

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the gold center, whatever. And then I was listening in, uh, 2013 to a podcast. Tom Woods was

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substituting for Peter Schiff. Yes, there is irony in this, that Peter Schiff show. And he was

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interviewing Eric Voorhees, Bitcoin OG. And they were talking about Bitcoin. First I had heard about,

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I might've, I can't remember for sure. I might've heard of it, like read kind of glance at, but

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that's the first time I was like, I listened to the podcast. This was like December, I think of

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2013. And I immediately was like, this is it. And I immediately, okay, this is what I'm looking for.

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I bought some Bitcoin at Coinbase. I set up an account at Coinbase. I was like,

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I'm a conservative kind of fuddy-duddy. I'm a boring guy. Mt. Gox is a little too much for me.

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I mean, thank God, because two months later it went down. So I was like, I did not want to give

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my money, send my money to Mt. Gox. And even then I was like, you know, Magic the Gathering,

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I don't know what that is, but it sounds kind of shady. So I'm like, give me Coinbase. It seems

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that brian armstrong seems like a legitimate guy i'll give my money to them and so i i bought a

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little bit of uh bitcoin and i kind of this is funny i bought my first bitcoin a couple days

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for the infamous hodl post at bitcoin forums no way because he posted his hodl you know the drunk

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you know hodl thing and i saw that live i remember seeing that come up because bitcoin's price is

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going down and everything so i got some and i really though i didn't fully understand bitcoin

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at the time. And I really saw it much more as a medium of exchange than a store of value.

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And I spent a lot of Bitcoin. I have spent far more Bitcoin than I own today. I mean,

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just because I got a Coinbase, like they had a Coinbase card back then, debit card that would

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spend Bitcoin. I had a couple of those. I would buy, this is my most kind of infamous purchase

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in my family. My daughter was graduating from high school, I think it was 2015.

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and I wanted to get her a beater car

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just because she needed something to drive around.

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So I went and I got like this $2,000 car

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and I sold two Bitcoin to buy it.

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And so like, and the car broke down in a month

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and it was just completely,

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I got completely scammed basically.

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And I got, so like it was two Bitcoin

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for a car that lasted a month.

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And so, you know, but, and I got really into like,

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until I was 15, 16, I got into a lot of altcoins

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because I was, and I was definitely on the big block side of the block size war at that time.

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I got very involved with Dash. I'm not sure how many people are familiar with that one. It's kind

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of fallen off, but it was the number three cryptocurrency for a while behind Bitcoin and

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Ethereum. I was like very involved in that. I was a master node owner. I was a trust protector,

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which is like an official, their official organization. So I was one of the leaders

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of the Dash community.

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And just over, and I was like,

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and I love Dash because it was very fast

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and you could buy coffee with it,

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you know, the whole thing and all that.

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And so-

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I remember, just to interrupt you,

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I remember Ben Swan, I think,

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was advertising Dash back in the day.

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Yep, I remember.

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I remember working with him.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So, and you know, I was writing for Bitcoin.com

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at the time for Roger Ver,

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and you know, very much on that side.

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and i never i never though thank god i never just i never got rid of all my bitcoin i did sell a lot

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of it for uh crypto altcoins uh you know ethereum dash all that stuff and honestly i didn't do i

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didn't do badly on those coins or anything like that but i always kept some bitcoin because it

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was kind of like it's your first love you can't have like it's the whole reason i'm here i'm not

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going to get rid of it. We lost Eric. I'm back. So that 2017, you know, it was a good year for

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everybody who was involved. It was a good year for me and everything. Uh, but I kind of waned

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in my interest between like about 18 and 20, just because the old coins, I just started realizing

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there's some problems. I had not yet really, you know, re-embraced Bitcoin as a, as a true,

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what it really was. And then I read, uh, you know, the Bitcoin standard. Um, I get, I can't remember

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what year it was me, 1920, whenever that was. And then I started saying, Oh, things started coming

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together in my mind a little bit more like, Oh, I wasn't really fully understanding Bitcoin

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completely. I got the basics, but I understand really what it is. It's, it's real value proposition.

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And so it all clicked in me. And I really kind of went back all in Bitcoin sold most of my, I think

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I sold all of them eventually in the next couple of years. So all my altcoins for Bitcoin. And so

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it really was just a matter of, okay, now I understand. I became a Bitcoin maximalist. I

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hopefully consider myself not a toxic Bitcoin maximalist, but you never know. We all are on

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some level probably. But yeah, so that's kind of how I got here was understanding like it took years.

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I mean, so 2013, I started, kind of went off the path. I think a lot of Bitcoiners do this. You get

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started then you start seeing the alts they sound they look a little more sexy they look a little

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more interesting the siren song yeah exactly you fought for it you know and maybe you get wrecked

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maybe you don't but either way you realize oh man what and the funny thing is my son he got involved

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with me in bitcoin he was only like how old was he nine i think when he first got you know i first

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got him into it and he went into the altcoins with me as well and i i had to tell him finally

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like, dude, we got to get out of this. And so he's like, yeah. And so I think he, he might,

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you know, he's a young guy. He might still be hoping for a hit on one of them, but he kind of

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is with me on that. So it's been kind of fun to do it together with them.

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Now that dad wrote a book called Moral Money, you know, it's going to be kind of one of those

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things where he was just, he was just home. He just got married a month ago and he was just home.

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He's eating those out of town and he's like, dad, I got to get a copy of your book. Right.

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He goes, I get a free one. I said, dude, you're like an OG. You get a free copy of

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the books. So, so yeah, so he's, he's actually orange pulled a bunch of people when he was at

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school. He went to Franciscan university as well. And, uh, I remember the first time I went to go

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visit him there, people, all his friends would come up and he asked me about Bitcoin. Cause he

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had orange pilled them early on, you know, to get them and they knew I knew about it. So that was

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pretty fun. That's funny. So yeah, we are, we're actually recording the morning, uh, that it came

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out. It was a release that BlackRock announced that they have made more money from their Bitcoin

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ETF than from their S&P 500.

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Wow.

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I had not heard that.

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It is absolutely nuts what's going on right now.

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So kind of, I mean, where did your, again, I haven't read the book yet, full disclosure.

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I've heard good things and would love to read it at some point.

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I think there's actually a copy in route to me based on talking to you.

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I hope you're so.

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But kind of, why don't you kind of give me a background on where, you know, what was the

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impetus for the book?

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And then kind of what are some of the sources that you're building on to kind of make your

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Yeah. So I actually wrote a self-published book in 2015 called Bitcoin Basics, 101 Questions and Answers.

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And it basically just was like, OK, this is an intro for Bitcoin. People don't know about 2015.

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Of course, nobody knew anything about it. And so I was like about a year ago, I thought, you know, I really want to update that.

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The technical information is still correct, but obviously it's 2015. Like I just explained my own journey.

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And so, like, you know, I definitely wanted to change a number of things about it.

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And so I kind of thought that my wife and I were kind of working on making it a little bit different.

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And I thought, you know, I don't think this is what I want to do because there's plenty of books out there that explain Bitcoin now.

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It's not 2015.

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I mean, literally 2015, the only thing we had was Andreas's book, which is Mastering Bitcoin, which is like real high level.

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So I was like, I'm trying to make it lower level.

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And I was like, what is the, and it kind of came coming back to the fact that the morality of Bitcoin was very important to me.

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and it's not something that's often talked about in the Bitcoin world.

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I think it's talked about way more now than it used to be.

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And I just thought this is something I really want to,

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I don't think anybody's written a book on this, that the, the morality,

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and there's, there's a book on the, I have it sitting right over here,

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the on ethics and it, I can't remember what that one's called, but the,

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is that the ethics of money production?

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No, that I'm rereading that now. It's a Bitcoin book, but anyway,

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I felt like there's not one that really tackles the idea of Bitcoin being more money. Here's the

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thing. I have found a lot of resistance in the Catholic world to Bitcoin. And I imagine it's

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probably true in the broader evangelical and other Christian world about the morality issue.

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It comes from a couple of different angles, but ultimately a lot of it's misunderstandings,

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But I've gotten, that's been probably my biggest pushback from my non-Bitcoin friends who are devoted to their faith. They love Jesus. They're good people and stuff like that. But they immediately kind of associate Bitcoin with drug dealers, with crime, or to just think it's like somehow not fair.

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and or like you know you you make all this money you don't do anything you know all lots of different

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and i was like okay i want to tackle this and i was like i just want to be bold and say bitcoin's

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the most moral money ever created because that would get and and i do believe it i'm not just

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saying it and so i that's kind of what was the genesis of why i was like i need to write i want

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to write about this because i just don't think this is a uh angle that you see as much um and i

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think it's needed for the christian world and in fact originally i was going to name it moral

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money the catholic case for bitcoin but my publisher which is actually a catholic publisher

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like wait a minute what you're saying in here isn't just cat isn't catholic it's not like

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it's natural law it's like basic morality that we that we share even obviously all christians but

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even non-christians like you know jews and muslims we share this and so my catholic publisher actually

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said no drop the catholic from it i had catholic references in it that were like the catholic i

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I was like, they said, no, make it because really this is not something that is, you know, the moral views that you're proposing aren't limited to Catholics.

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So my audience for Crisis is mostly Catholic.

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That's why I was thinking that.

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I was thinking of them.

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But they're like, no, let's make this a little broader because really it's not just limited.

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Obviously, we share, you know, so much.

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It particularly when it comes to basic morality.

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We all believe thou shalt not steal.

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Oh, it's like, you know, I think that was,

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that's kind of how it ended up being just the case for Bitcoin

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instead of the Catholic case for Bitcoin.

200
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Yeah.

201
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Yeah, this, I mean, I've greatly benefited

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from some Roman Catholic authors on these topics.

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I mean, your Guido Holzman,

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who's the author of The Ethics of Money Production,

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you know, obviously is a Roman Catholic.

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And again, we were, I mean,

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blessed to have him come speak at our conference.

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Oh, really? I didn't know that.

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Oh, wow. I would take on to that.

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He's incredible.

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Yeah, he came in. Yeah, the timing was crazy because he was going to be in the country anyhow.

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He teaches at a university in France.

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It was going to be in the country up in Boston teaching at the American Economic Institute for Research or something like that.

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And so he was going to be there.

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And so we just actually shared the expense of getting him here and was just, I mean, blown away.

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to, you know, four years after we wrote

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Thank God for Bitcoin to have him at our conference

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and talking about the topic that, you know,

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so impacted us in writing our book.

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What's great about reading, I'm rereading,

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I'm reading, you know, Ethics of Money Production right now.

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And it was published in April 2008.

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So just six months before Bitcoin released.

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It's crazy.

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And the best part is the line

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where he's talking about electronic, electric money.

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And he says, I don't think in a free market

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it will spontaneously be a money

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that's based on bits and bytes.

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And I just started cracking up with that.

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I'm like, this is great.

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He literally wrote that months before Bitcoin was released.

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And you wonder if Satoshi read that because he was very well read in the literature and everything.

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And you kind of wonder because you know he was working on it already when it came out.

235
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And you wonder if he picked that up at some point either before Bitcoin came out or during and just kind of chuckled like, well, now we have one.

236
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Well, yeah.

237
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Well, I mean, there's just – there's so many things, right?

238
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I mean, are you familiar with Buckminster Fuller?

239
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I don't think so, no.

240
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So Buckminster Fuller was a futurist, and he talked about how ideal it would be to have a money that was backed by energy.

241
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Somebody like, are you familiar with Wendell Berry?

242
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Oh, yeah.

243
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Okay.

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So Wendell Berry in his book, Home Economics, I have a first edition.

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I started trying to accumulate first editions and signed ones as well.

246
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So I have a first edition of his book, Home Economics.

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And one of the, I think it's chapter three, he's talking, he's describing this back and forth letter writing that him and one of his friends, other farmer friends were doing.

248
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And they were discussing the nature of currency and what the ideal currency would be.

249
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And Barry's contention is that the ideal currency would be one that was backed by energy.

250
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And I just, and that book was written, I think in 87.

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And so I just was floored to think about, I'm like, there are so many brilliant people here who are not associated as economists or not, you know, at least nominally aren't economists, but who are thinking about these things and thinking rightly about them.

252
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And so, yeah, it's just fascinating.

253
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Okay.

254
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So in terms of, you know, some of the, what approaches does your book take?

255
00:17:55,460 --> 00:17:56,640
I don't have like a chapter.

256
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What I do is I understand that most people don't understand money.

257
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They just, nobody knows what money is.

258
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still don't know how it works. So I really start off very much like, okay, what is money? I talk

259
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about how money comes to be used. And I'm trying to basically, I'm thinking about the myths out

260
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there of like state, the state production of money, things like that. So I'm talking about how

261
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it happens naturally. And, and what happens is certain goods have certain properties to make

262
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them better money than others. And so then I just basically am trying to introduce, and I introduced

263
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the properties of money,

264
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the seven properties of money I list.

265
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But what I do is, and this is something

266
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I haven't seen anybody else do this before,

267
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maybe they have, but I haven't seen it.

268
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I don just say there seven properties of money I say there two categories of properties There the usefulness efficiency category Then there the moral category So we have durability divisibility portability fungibility

269
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There's our usefulness.

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Good money has all four of those things on some level.

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And then there's the other ones, which is scarcity, verifiability, and independence.

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And I haven't really seen a lot of people talk about independence,

273
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but I kind of feel like independence is one of the most important properties of money, of good money.

274
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But those are moral properties, really.

275
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They make a money more or less moral.

276
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And so by kind of, I break all that down.

277
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I'm leaving the reader on to say, okay, fiat money,

278
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it just crushes those four usefulness efficiency.

279
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It just is great at that.

280
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Gold, it crushes those moral properties.

281
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But if you look at it, gold's not so good on portability.

282
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It's not even that great on divisibility.

283
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I mean, you know, in modern times it isn't.

284
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And then if you look at fiat, it's just completely fails miserably on the moral properties fiat.

285
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So I'm leading them to, okay, guess what?

286
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There is now a form of money that crushes all seven of those properties.

287
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I even have a chart where I'm kind of listing and I give them like little rankings, each property.

288
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And so it's kind of leading the reader to say, okay, you first have to understand what money is.

289
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Because I know, I'm sure you get this all the time.

290
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when you talk to somebody about Bitcoin for the first time,

291
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you realize they have no idea what money is.

292
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And if they have no idea what money is,

293
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they're not going to understand Bitcoin.

294
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And so that's kind of where I lead them to it.

295
00:20:14,516 --> 00:20:16,216
And then I do have a chapter too,

296
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just like how Bitcoin works.

297
00:20:17,736 --> 00:20:20,236
I go through the technical on a high level.

298
00:20:20,376 --> 00:20:22,336
I'm not trying, you know, I'm expecting them,

299
00:20:22,396 --> 00:20:23,696
they could go research it more.

300
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But, you know, so I explained what it is.

301
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And then one of the biggest chapters I have in the book is,

302
00:20:29,276 --> 00:20:30,276
I think it is the biggest chapters,

303
00:20:30,436 --> 00:20:31,436
objections to Bitcoin.

304
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And I just list, I don't know how many,

305
00:20:33,876 --> 00:20:35,456
is like a dozen or more objections

306
00:20:35,456 --> 00:20:37,776
and I just list it and then I answer it.

307
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And I just go through it.

308
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And I do have another chapter on other cryptocurrencies

309
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because that's, I don't know how many times I'll mention,

310
00:20:44,376 --> 00:20:45,636
somebody knows I'm Bitcoin,

311
00:20:45,736 --> 00:20:46,856
like, oh, what do you think about Solana?

312
00:20:46,936 --> 00:20:47,616
What do you think about that?

313
00:20:47,676 --> 00:20:47,896
What do you think?

314
00:20:48,196 --> 00:20:49,996
You know, what do they think about Trump coin or whatever?

315
00:20:50,076 --> 00:20:51,236
I'm just like, oh my gosh.

316
00:20:51,296 --> 00:20:53,156
So I just want to put it out there right at the beginning.

317
00:20:53,256 --> 00:20:56,496
And I don't have quite as harsh of a view

318
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of other cryptocurrencies.

319
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Like my basic view is that 99.9% of them are just crap.

320
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I mean, they're just, you know, either scams or just failures.

321
00:21:06,596 --> 00:21:09,876
But there are some that might be interesting technical projects.

322
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So if you want to judge them like you would a tech stock, I think that's fine.

323
00:21:14,056 --> 00:21:14,876
I don't have a problem with that.

324
00:21:15,076 --> 00:21:20,576
Personally, I think the blockchain is actually not that great of a technical thing for anything other than money.

325
00:21:22,016 --> 00:21:22,836
That's the thing.

326
00:21:22,956 --> 00:21:23,056
Yeah.

327
00:21:24,196 --> 00:21:30,356
I talk to people all the time, and one of the ways that you can figure out that somebody doesn't know what they're talking about

328
00:21:30,356 --> 00:21:33,336
is if somebody gives you the whole blockchain, not Bitcoin thing.

329
00:21:33,816 --> 00:21:38,036
And thankfully, that is really kind of starting to disappear.

330
00:21:38,996 --> 00:21:41,436
And again, I attribute that to Bitcoiners.

331
00:21:41,596 --> 00:21:43,276
I think of guys like Jack Mallers.

332
00:21:43,576 --> 00:21:45,676
I just had a tweet about this this morning.

333
00:21:46,136 --> 00:21:50,416
The educational work that has been done by Bitcoiners,

334
00:21:50,516 --> 00:21:55,756
whether it's Jack Mallers on CNBC or Jack Dorsey or Max and Stacey,

335
00:21:55,756 --> 00:22:01,876
you know, like those guys, like just to educate people about their own monetary system, much less

336
00:22:01,876 --> 00:22:06,636
Bitcoin itself and how it works and why it prioritizes the things that it does is astounding

337
00:22:06,636 --> 00:22:14,936
to me. Like the level of discourse has been raised so far by Bitcoiners in just the popular

338
00:22:14,936 --> 00:22:18,776
discussion. We're talking more about inflation. We're talking about monetary debasement. Like

339
00:22:18,776 --> 00:22:23,076
these are all things that have entered into the national discourse that just were not being

340
00:22:23,076 --> 00:22:29,996
discussed with any level of seriousness before Bitcoin. It is amazing. Honestly, I really credit

341
00:22:29,996 --> 00:22:34,596
Seyfried Dean because of his Bitcoin standard. I feel like that was the, that was, it was for me

342
00:22:34,596 --> 00:22:38,496
personally, but I also feel like that was a threshold. I remember a before that book and

343
00:22:38,496 --> 00:22:44,056
after that book, as far as the discussion in Bitcoin world, because like, I remember the whole

344
00:22:44,056 --> 00:22:50,236
blockchain, not Bitcoin. It was just because Bitcoin had a bad reputation on Wall Street and

345
00:22:50,236 --> 00:22:50,876
in the business world.

346
00:22:50,936 --> 00:22:52,476
So like if I say blockchain, not Bitcoin,

347
00:22:52,596 --> 00:22:54,656
I sound like I'm really tech savvy,

348
00:22:54,816 --> 00:22:57,516
but like I'm not looking at those weird libertarian types

349
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or anything like that.

350
00:22:58,196 --> 00:23:00,316
So I think that's very true.

351
00:23:00,476 --> 00:23:02,296
Like I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt

352
00:23:02,296 --> 00:23:04,516
to founders of other cryptocurrencies

353
00:23:04,516 --> 00:23:07,616
that they're just not well informed.

354
00:23:08,096 --> 00:23:10,496
And so they might be trying to do something

355
00:23:10,496 --> 00:23:12,596
and it's like, okay, God bless you.

356
00:23:12,656 --> 00:23:13,776
You can try that.

357
00:23:14,016 --> 00:23:17,036
But my own personal, like my own investment is,

358
00:23:17,116 --> 00:23:18,296
I'm not going to invest in any of them,

359
00:23:18,296 --> 00:23:22,416
but maybe, you know, maybe one of them will work. Maybe somebody will find some usage

360
00:23:22,416 --> 00:23:28,576
of cryptocurrency outside of just as money that does something. But I mean, we've seen what's

361
00:23:28,576 --> 00:23:34,096
happened. I mean, like Ethereum in terms of Bitcoin is just like, oh my gosh, that's a death

362
00:23:34,096 --> 00:23:39,576
spiral. And I got a buddy who's still super Ethereum. He's a good devout Catholic guy and

363
00:23:39,576 --> 00:23:44,556
he's a great guy. I love him, but he is still super into Ethereum. And I just am like, dude,

364
00:23:44,556 --> 00:23:50,296
what are you doing? Yeah. Well, and this is, again, this is, I'm totally willing to grant the

365
00:23:50,296 --> 00:23:54,176
same, you know, the same thing is like, you know, Hey, some of these might be interested as technology

366
00:23:54,176 --> 00:24:01,336
projects or something, but that none of them require a token. Like the point of the token

367
00:24:01,336 --> 00:24:07,956
is to allow you to have unaccountable wealth. Like that's like, so if you had to go out into the,

368
00:24:08,056 --> 00:24:13,096
if you had to go out into the market and raise VC funds, like on the basis of the, you know,

369
00:24:13,096 --> 00:24:17,736
people having interest in the product, that's one thing. But what a token allows you to do is just

370
00:24:17,736 --> 00:24:22,276
get all of like way more money than you'd be able to get under normal, normal constraints

371
00:24:22,276 --> 00:24:28,076
with none of the oversight. And so it just, it presents and creates a horrible incentive cycle,

372
00:24:28,076 --> 00:24:32,896
uh, instead of incentives for, for the people who are doing it. So one of the ways that we

373
00:24:32,896 --> 00:24:37,696
describe it is just basically the idea that like the fundamentally though people, you know,

374
00:24:37,696 --> 00:24:42,596
founders of these projects that, that have tokens, their objection to the federal reserve is not that

375
00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:46,436
it exists it's that they're not on the federal exactly they're not able to create the money

376
00:24:46,436 --> 00:24:50,756
i mean the truth is there's a certain beauty with meme coins because they don't they're not trying

377
00:24:50,756 --> 00:24:55,996
to fake anybody out it's a clear cash grab and like everybody knows it's a cash grab and everybody's

378
00:24:55,996 --> 00:25:01,136
just trying to be one of the people who get some of the cash but or the the the music stops and so

379
00:25:01,136 --> 00:25:06,136
okay i mean i i personally think there's a certain level of immorality in that but like at the same

380
00:25:06,136 --> 00:25:11,296
time at least it's honest it's out there at least it's saying i mean i saw so many of those projects

381
00:25:11,296 --> 00:25:14,016
back in 17, the ICO craze and all that.

382
00:25:14,336 --> 00:25:16,276
And the truth, the reason I'm a little bit,

383
00:25:16,336 --> 00:25:19,036
I'm not quite as anti because my work with Dash,

384
00:25:20,076 --> 00:25:23,136
they were legitimate, sincere people who really believed,

385
00:25:23,196 --> 00:25:23,916
and I was one of them,

386
00:25:24,076 --> 00:25:26,856
who believed Dash was a good technical project

387
00:25:26,856 --> 00:25:30,496
that could really change how we do internet commerce

388
00:25:30,496 --> 00:25:31,416
and things like that.

389
00:25:31,856 --> 00:25:34,436
Now, I look back on, I know we were fundamentally wrong,

390
00:25:35,076 --> 00:25:37,696
but there's been something wrong and being a scammer.

391
00:25:37,696 --> 00:25:42,856
Like, you know, we were, we were wrong and, and, you know, and, you know, we found out we were wrong.

392
00:25:42,936 --> 00:25:45,616
I mean, I think Dash is like a 300th highest now or something like that.

393
00:25:45,676 --> 00:25:46,476
They were like third.

394
00:25:46,636 --> 00:25:49,376
So you just find, you can be, yeah.

395
00:25:49,756 --> 00:25:51,856
Like there's, there's earnestly wrong.

396
00:25:52,476 --> 00:25:54,176
So you could, you could think about them.

397
00:25:54,216 --> 00:25:55,096
I mean, here's an example, right?

398
00:25:55,096 --> 00:25:57,596
You could think about them like disciples of John the Baptist, right?

399
00:25:57,816 --> 00:26:03,376
Like disciples of John the Baptist were following John, you know, you meet, uh, who's the guy, uh, oh gosh.

400
00:26:03,376 --> 00:26:08,316
in the book of acts he like worships 30 he follows john the baptist until he kind of was it simeon

401
00:26:08,316 --> 00:26:15,676
uh simon the magician no that's not simon no it's not simon yeah we're showing our biblical

402
00:26:15,676 --> 00:26:21,636
illiteracy here it's no yeah it's the guy and his wife oh yeah i didn't know if they were both

403
00:26:21,636 --> 00:26:25,936
struck dead yeah right oh i'm forgetting the name after yeah no no but no no it's no that's the way

404
00:26:25,936 --> 00:26:30,396
it's the one where he's like a powerful speaker oh yeah i can't think of what it is anyhow that's

405
00:26:30,396 --> 00:26:34,716
going to kill me. But yeah, it's just the idea of like, you can, you can have a certain amount

406
00:26:34,716 --> 00:26:39,056
of information that's true. And like what you guys had, like you guys had a real understanding,

407
00:26:39,196 --> 00:26:44,636
real desire, but it was a partial understanding. And so that just led you to do certain things and

408
00:26:44,636 --> 00:26:49,056
to prioritize certain things. And so, yeah, I think you definitely have to have, I definitely

409
00:26:49,056 --> 00:26:54,676
think it's easy for, again, you can have the same type of thing happen on a theological level as

410
00:26:54,676 --> 00:27:00,316
well, right? There are people who hold theological positions innocently, earnestly, because they've

411
00:27:00,316 --> 00:27:01,956
but they've been told them by people they trust.

412
00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:02,856
And so they're holding them.

413
00:27:03,136 --> 00:27:05,176
And so just to absolutely blast them

414
00:27:05,176 --> 00:27:06,496
as if they're, you know,

415
00:27:06,536 --> 00:27:07,956
the worst heretic who ever lived,

416
00:27:08,256 --> 00:27:10,076
that's probably not, you know, warranted

417
00:27:10,076 --> 00:27:11,496
and probably isn't the most helpful way.

418
00:27:11,656 --> 00:27:13,476
You have to learn some humility

419
00:27:13,476 --> 00:27:14,616
because that was me

420
00:27:14,616 --> 00:27:16,336
because I remember I hated the Bitcoin.

421
00:27:16,476 --> 00:27:17,596
There wasn't a lot of them back then,

422
00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:19,096
but the Bitcoin Max was back then.

423
00:27:19,416 --> 00:27:21,076
I hated them, hated them all.

424
00:27:21,476 --> 00:27:23,316
And I just thought they were the worst people.

425
00:27:23,596 --> 00:27:24,596
Like in the black says words,

426
00:27:24,696 --> 00:27:25,616
all the small blockers,

427
00:27:25,736 --> 00:27:28,136
they were just toxic and the worst people.

428
00:27:28,136 --> 00:27:31,196
and it was a humbling experience to finally say,

429
00:27:31,316 --> 00:27:32,216
well, they were right though.

430
00:27:32,976 --> 00:27:35,436
I'm not going to endorse every action that somebody does.

431
00:27:35,556 --> 00:27:36,996
It shouldn't be certain ways,

432
00:27:37,076 --> 00:27:40,296
but the point is that they were right and I was wrong.

433
00:27:40,556 --> 00:27:44,856
And you just, the evidence just starts building up

434
00:27:44,856 --> 00:27:45,756
and building up for filing.

435
00:27:45,956 --> 00:27:47,576
It took me a long time, but eventually I was like,

436
00:27:47,616 --> 00:27:48,916
okay, they were right, I was wrong.

437
00:27:49,076 --> 00:27:50,516
I just need to move forward with that.

438
00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:55,096
Yeah, and again, I mean, good on you for having the humility

439
00:27:55,096 --> 00:27:56,836
because again, it is so hard.

440
00:27:56,836 --> 00:28:00,136
And you get people, especially, I mean, especially somebody like Roger.

441
00:28:00,176 --> 00:28:03,856
I don't know Roger personally, but like, I just can imagine it would be so difficult

442
00:28:03,856 --> 00:28:11,216
when you have built your reputation, built businesses, you know, based on your firm belief

443
00:28:11,216 --> 00:28:12,916
that things are a certain way.

444
00:28:13,136 --> 00:28:19,776
And like the reputational hit, the pride hit to have to come back and be willing to say,

445
00:28:19,916 --> 00:28:21,496
hey, I was wrong.

446
00:28:21,956 --> 00:28:25,756
Again, like that, you'd want to think that, you know, people would still be willing to

447
00:28:25,756 --> 00:28:31,816
do it but the reality is that it's the thing is like the personality of roger that led him to be

448
00:28:31,816 --> 00:28:36,996
bitcoin jesus early on is the same personality it's like a it's like a greek tragedy that is

449
00:28:36,996 --> 00:28:41,856
leading on where he is now because early on he had to go up against everybody the whole world was

450
00:28:41,856 --> 00:28:46,576
like you're you're crazy you're an idiot and he had to say no i'm gonna stand right here i am right

451
00:28:46,576 --> 00:28:52,256
you all are wrong and he was right yeah but then high disagreeableness is can be both that's right

452
00:28:52,256 --> 00:28:53,716
And then he kept doing it, though.

453
00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:56,456
I read hijacking Bitcoin not that long ago.

454
00:28:56,616 --> 00:28:56,796
Yeah.

455
00:28:57,036 --> 00:28:59,836
And it just was kind of sad because I remember living through it.

456
00:28:59,916 --> 00:29:02,016
Like I said, I worked for Bitcoin.com briefly,

457
00:29:02,196 --> 00:29:03,636
and so I was working for Roger and stuff.

458
00:29:03,676 --> 00:29:05,916
Not direct as a middleman I worked for,

459
00:29:06,416 --> 00:29:08,816
but Roger, his Bitcoin was being sent to me to pay me.

460
00:29:09,396 --> 00:29:14,596
And just reading that, just seeing how he basically is taking everything

461
00:29:14,596 --> 00:29:18,836
the small blocker said in the worst possible light.

462
00:29:18,876 --> 00:29:19,536
The worst possible light.

463
00:29:19,536 --> 00:29:20,536
And it's like, come on.

464
00:29:20,536 --> 00:29:29,976
I know some of them were kind of jerks about things, but like you're acting like every single one was a bad actor who was who was like working for the CIA and stuff like that.

465
00:29:30,036 --> 00:29:31,856
That's just not that is not what happened.

466
00:29:32,336 --> 00:29:34,136
They were sincere people who believe me.

467
00:29:34,216 --> 00:29:35,636
There's some people who are infiltrated.

468
00:29:35,736 --> 00:29:36,036
I don't know.

469
00:29:36,176 --> 00:29:36,296
Sure.

470
00:29:36,416 --> 00:29:38,356
They were sincere people who believe what they believe.

471
00:29:38,436 --> 00:29:39,896
And you're a sincere person who believes you believe.

472
00:29:39,976 --> 00:29:40,996
And you just simply disagree.

473
00:29:41,176 --> 00:29:42,296
It's as simple as that.

474
00:29:42,476 --> 00:29:46,156
And you ended up being the market has said you were wrong, if nothing else.

475
00:29:46,456 --> 00:29:48,976
And that's kind of what it was for me was the market.

476
00:29:48,976 --> 00:29:55,596
that really told me because i didn't want to believe that they were right and by 2020 i think

477
00:29:55,596 --> 00:30:00,216
it was around there i was like yeah the market's telling me something i just gotta listen to it

478
00:30:00,216 --> 00:30:05,416
because bitcoin keeps going up and these other all these other coins are not bitcoin cash is just

479
00:30:05,416 --> 00:30:10,536
dying and and it's not like the market's always right in the short term but in the long term it

480
00:30:10,536 --> 00:30:17,136
does figure things out pretty well it's true yep so um so i guess kind of what what has been

481
00:30:17,136 --> 00:30:21,036
some of the, I mean, I know it's early days in terms of getting response, but like, what has

482
00:30:21,036 --> 00:30:26,596
been some of the response to the book so far? And kind of what are there other things that you've,

483
00:30:26,796 --> 00:30:29,696
that have come out of it where you're like, oh man, I wish I would have addressed that,

484
00:30:29,736 --> 00:30:34,196
or I wish I would have. I feel pretty good about what I address, but it is funny because, you know,

485
00:30:34,216 --> 00:30:37,796
when you release a book, you go kind of on the interview circuit. And like I said, my publisher

486
00:30:37,796 --> 00:30:42,136
is a Catholic publisher. So they publish, they're the biggest Catholic publisher in America, in fact,

487
00:30:42,136 --> 00:30:46,456
and they, and that's, what's that? Do you know Matt Pinnett? Oh yeah, I know Matt.

488
00:30:46,456 --> 00:30:46,656
Yeah.

489
00:30:46,656 --> 00:30:47,136
You're with Matt?

490
00:30:47,356 --> 00:30:47,556
Yeah.

491
00:30:47,656 --> 00:30:47,976
Okay.

492
00:30:48,176 --> 00:30:48,256
Yeah.

493
00:30:48,316 --> 00:30:52,916
Matt, I met him at the, we were, I was like, he was, we were interacting about his, the

494
00:30:52,916 --> 00:30:53,176
Catholic.

495
00:30:53,416 --> 00:30:53,516
Yeah.

496
00:30:53,516 --> 00:30:53,676
Yeah.

497
00:30:53,736 --> 00:30:53,956
Yeah.

498
00:30:54,036 --> 00:30:54,196
Yeah.

499
00:30:54,216 --> 00:30:56,716
I wish I meant to go to that, but I wasn't able to.

500
00:30:57,436 --> 00:31:00,836
But like the point is they're, they're very tuned into the Catholic world.

501
00:31:00,976 --> 00:31:05,176
And so all the Catholic radio stations, Catholic podcasts, stuff like that, they reach out

502
00:31:05,176 --> 00:31:06,596
to, Hey, would you like to interview this guy?

503
00:31:06,596 --> 00:31:11,696
And, you know, and so I've gotten literally interviews from like, I just last week, God

504
00:31:11,696 --> 00:31:11,996
bless them.

505
00:31:12,056 --> 00:31:14,776
There's this old, older couple, they're probably in their sixties or something.

506
00:31:14,776 --> 00:31:16,436
and they didn't even know what Bitcoin was hardly,

507
00:31:16,516 --> 00:31:17,476
but they wanted to interview me.

508
00:31:17,656 --> 00:31:18,916
And so they literally start off like,

509
00:31:18,956 --> 00:31:20,296
can you explain Bitcoin to me?

510
00:31:20,336 --> 00:31:21,156
And I have no idea what it is.

511
00:31:21,196 --> 00:31:23,276
And so there's a real challenge there, of course,

512
00:31:23,316 --> 00:31:25,336
because it's like a 20 minute interview.

513
00:31:25,456 --> 00:31:26,636
Like, what am I going to say?

514
00:31:27,416 --> 00:31:29,436
And so like, I found what I-

515
00:31:29,436 --> 00:31:31,396
You feel like the mosquito in the Judas colony.

516
00:31:31,616 --> 00:31:34,016
You're like, where do I start?

517
00:31:34,316 --> 00:31:34,676
Exactly.

518
00:31:35,036 --> 00:31:36,836
And so like, I'm just like,

519
00:31:37,196 --> 00:31:40,376
what I've learned to do is I just kind of tease it.

520
00:31:40,376 --> 00:31:41,896
I don't actually explain it.

521
00:31:42,076 --> 00:31:43,576
I am like, if I tease it,

522
00:31:43,576 --> 00:31:49,256
if they're interested, they'll get the book or they'll go online, whatever. I don't care.

523
00:31:49,396 --> 00:31:53,356
You know, they'll find out more. And so that's why I kind of tease it by starting off with the

524
00:31:53,356 --> 00:31:58,476
idea of the money you're using is actually deeply immoral from a, and if it's a Catholic station,

525
00:31:58,536 --> 00:32:02,076
from a Catholic point of view, it's deeply immoral. You don't hear this because most people

526
00:32:02,076 --> 00:32:07,256
don't understand it, but it is. And Bitcoin is a replacement, a way to have a moral form of money.

527
00:32:07,336 --> 00:32:10,756
And I almost just stopped there and I just wait for their follow-up questions. Cause then they say

528
00:32:10,756 --> 00:32:15,016
like, wait a minute, can you actually hold the Bitcoin? Is it physical? All those type of

529
00:32:15,016 --> 00:32:20,156
questions. So that's been very interesting. It's kind of like shifting gears on these interviews

530
00:32:20,156 --> 00:32:24,016
because then I come on Tom Wood's show or on your show. It's like, okay, I got an audience that

531
00:32:24,016 --> 00:32:32,356
understands money already, but I've enjoyed it a lot. My sister, I got her into Bitcoin a couple

532
00:32:32,356 --> 00:32:35,876
years ago. She gets mad at me. She goes, why didn't you tell me this beforehand? I'm like,

533
00:32:35,956 --> 00:32:40,096
Beth, I wrote a book about in 2015. What are you talking about? I said, well, yeah, but you should

534
00:32:40,096 --> 00:32:44,516
have pushed me more. I'm like, oh, come on. And she, she and her husband, they're a great Christian

535
00:32:44,516 --> 00:32:49,516
family and, uh, you know, evangelical Christians and they're great people. And like, I finally got

536
00:32:49,516 --> 00:32:54,936
them to orange pill a couple of years ago. And so, but she just, and she hasn't, and she just

537
00:32:54,936 --> 00:33:00,056
listened to my, uh, the Tom Woods one. I told her about that and she doesn't listen to anything I do

538
00:33:00,056 --> 00:33:02,476
or anything like that. Cause she's my older sister. Why would she listen to her little brother?

539
00:33:02,636 --> 00:33:05,856
She goes, she goes, Eric, you actually sound intelligent.

540
00:33:05,856 --> 00:33:12,356
like that's the best compliment again my older sister said i found intelligence so

541
00:33:12,356 --> 00:33:19,696
so it's been enjoyable um it's it's a tough cracking into this world of like yeah i knew

542
00:33:19,696 --> 00:33:24,176
and like here's the great thing so the the publisher the head of the sophia institute

543
00:33:24,176 --> 00:33:30,156
which is the publisher he's a big coiner okay and so i knew he was and so i proposed this book to him

544
00:33:30,156 --> 00:33:34,996
and he is he's got a talent he knows a book if it's gonna hit or not i proposed books before and

545
00:33:34,996 --> 00:33:36,116
He said, nope, that won't work.

546
00:33:36,696 --> 00:33:38,276
And he always knows ahead of time,

547
00:33:38,376 --> 00:33:39,756
okay, is this book going to sell or not?

548
00:33:40,056 --> 00:33:41,476
And he literally said to me, this one was,

549
00:33:41,656 --> 00:33:43,556
I have no idea if this one's going to sell,

550
00:33:43,656 --> 00:33:44,096
but I don't care.

551
00:33:44,176 --> 00:33:45,036
I think it needs to be out there.

552
00:33:45,456 --> 00:33:46,476
And so there we go.

553
00:33:46,716 --> 00:33:49,076
And so I feel like it's doing well so far,

554
00:33:49,176 --> 00:33:52,116
but this is the most challenging one for me

555
00:33:52,116 --> 00:33:56,076
because the Bitcoin world is got,

556
00:33:56,336 --> 00:33:58,016
they don't really look at always that way.

557
00:33:58,096 --> 00:34:00,056
I mean, other than you, there's not many.

558
00:34:00,296 --> 00:34:01,456
And in the Catholic world,

559
00:34:01,456 --> 00:34:02,536
they're not thinking about Bitcoin.

560
00:34:02,696 --> 00:34:04,856
So literally it's like a book with no audience.

561
00:34:04,856 --> 00:34:09,736
It's just like, you know, so I'm trying to, I'm working hard to try to bring it together to make it.

562
00:34:09,836 --> 00:34:16,676
In fact, I was, I told the publicist at Sophia, she was like, oh, where's some Bitcoin podcasts you could get on?

563
00:34:17,236 --> 00:34:19,616
And I was trying to think of ones I said, and I listed you first.

564
00:34:19,676 --> 00:34:22,236
I was like, okay, this one is a 100% fit.

565
00:34:22,516 --> 00:34:24,236
I'm like, these are going to be stretch goals.

566
00:34:24,356 --> 00:34:28,416
You know, let's try to get them because I can kind of, sometimes you can gather from what a host says.

567
00:34:28,416 --> 00:34:30,256
Like, I think they're probably Christian.

568
00:34:30,436 --> 00:34:33,496
Like, they don't say it necessarily, but you're like, I think they might.

569
00:34:33,496 --> 00:34:34,816
So I, you know, reach out to them.

570
00:34:35,076 --> 00:34:36,176
So it's been good.

571
00:34:36,276 --> 00:34:37,676
I feel like it's something,

572
00:34:38,296 --> 00:34:39,816
it's trying to break into a world

573
00:34:39,816 --> 00:34:42,636
that, you know, isn't really that tapped yet

574
00:34:42,636 --> 00:34:44,316
for Bitcoiners.

575
00:34:44,496 --> 00:34:47,016
And so I, and the big thing I'm getting back

576
00:34:47,016 --> 00:34:50,636
is a lot of, I mean, a lot of people who read it

577
00:34:50,636 --> 00:34:51,756
are like, I don't even know how to get started.

578
00:34:51,836 --> 00:34:52,396
What do I buy?

579
00:34:52,556 --> 00:34:53,416
I mean, what do I do?

580
00:34:53,496 --> 00:34:55,796
So I got, I'm thinking about making some videos on that.

581
00:34:56,256 --> 00:34:58,556
But another thing is they want to get their church

582
00:34:58,556 --> 00:35:00,016
to accept Bitcoin.

583
00:35:00,016 --> 00:35:04,556
I got my parish, you know, years ago to accept it.

584
00:35:04,696 --> 00:35:05,996
We have a young pastor.

585
00:35:06,156 --> 00:35:08,076
So, you know, he was open to it and stuff like that.

586
00:35:08,236 --> 00:35:10,116
Although, yeah, I set it up.

587
00:35:10,236 --> 00:35:11,436
I want to change how he set up.

588
00:35:11,456 --> 00:35:12,096
I'll just put it that way.

589
00:35:12,636 --> 00:35:16,316
But the point is, is that like, and so they're asking like, what can we do?

590
00:35:16,336 --> 00:35:20,336
And honestly, it's like, you know, it's just like Wall Street trying to get a company.

591
00:35:20,836 --> 00:35:27,756
You know, there's a reason why when Microsoft proposed it to the shareholders, it was like 98% or whatever said no.

592
00:35:27,756 --> 00:35:33,516
it's going to be even higher percentage at most you know uh churches out there it just yeah and

593
00:35:33,516 --> 00:35:37,596
so like trying to get people and then there is real issues and i'm talking to some people about

594
00:35:37,596 --> 00:35:43,376
this like okay what kind of custody are you going to do because if it's self-custody you can't have

595
00:35:43,376 --> 00:35:48,116
the pastor owning the keys you know you got to have some type of multi-sig type of thing

596
00:35:48,116 --> 00:35:53,396
is it maybe better just to do a custodial like with river or something like that which isn't

597
00:35:53,396 --> 00:35:58,796
that's ideal, but like river is like set up for that. And so like, there's all these issues that,

598
00:35:58,796 --> 00:36:03,616
you know, you really got, and I don't think there's a clear cut way. I know river has accepted a lot

599
00:36:03,616 --> 00:36:08,936
of churches. Like I see Alexander talk about that a lot. Yeah. We, we, I mean, we, that's who we

600
00:36:08,936 --> 00:36:13,196
recommend for the, for especially people who are just getting started, who, again, they, they're

601
00:36:13,196 --> 00:36:17,316
like, they recognize that they need Bitcoin and they're, they're really just trying to help their

602
00:36:17,316 --> 00:36:21,616
church get started. Like in their case, again, it's kind of like the, there's what they're asking.

603
00:36:21,616 --> 00:36:25,556
And then there's like what they really will ask in six months once they have a better idea.

604
00:36:25,736 --> 00:36:31,696
And so we just recommend people use River to start out with because, again, they get you like the tax help.

605
00:36:32,156 --> 00:36:33,376
All the handholding.

606
00:36:33,436 --> 00:36:37,676
It's like enough handholding to get you down the road to help you if you need it.

607
00:36:38,056 --> 00:36:42,416
And then, again, River is going to also – they're going to want you to take custody once you're ready.

608
00:36:42,576 --> 00:36:43,616
And so there's educational resources.

609
00:36:43,616 --> 00:36:48,436
Yeah, and that's – for years I recommended Coinbase just because that's what I was used as familiar with.

610
00:36:48,436 --> 00:36:50,196
but I was getting more and more.

611
00:36:50,336 --> 00:36:51,536
I felt more like I needed a shower

612
00:36:51,536 --> 00:36:53,036
after going my Coinbase account

613
00:36:53,036 --> 00:36:54,056
because it's like a casino.

614
00:36:54,336 --> 00:36:54,656
It's like,

615
00:36:54,756 --> 00:36:56,696
I just was like getting more and more.

616
00:36:56,776 --> 00:36:57,176
And finally,

617
00:36:57,176 --> 00:36:59,316
I just cut ties with them about a year ago

618
00:36:59,316 --> 00:37:01,456
and went all in with River because,

619
00:37:01,616 --> 00:37:02,636
and I like some other companies,

620
00:37:02,716 --> 00:37:03,296
not just River,

621
00:37:03,396 --> 00:37:05,256
but I like the proof of reserves of River.

622
00:37:05,696 --> 00:37:06,956
I like the fact that they clearly,

623
00:37:06,956 --> 00:37:09,016
they are advocating for self-custody.

624
00:37:09,116 --> 00:37:11,216
And so like they're real Bitcoiners,

625
00:37:11,256 --> 00:37:11,736
in other words.

626
00:37:11,856 --> 00:37:12,476
And so like,

627
00:37:12,716 --> 00:37:15,516
that's who I've been recommending more and more

628
00:37:15,516 --> 00:37:16,276
because it's just like,

629
00:37:16,276 --> 00:37:16,776
and so,

630
00:37:16,776 --> 00:37:38,852
But that a real challenge of getting your church to accept Bitcoin donations because there are real issues involved real usability issues because you don know The pastor might know nothing about anything Maybe he knows something but like you can you don want it to be that a that a major scandal waiting to happen if a pastor is the only one who has access to it You got to have

631
00:37:38,852 --> 00:37:42,352
like some type of shared, I don't, it depends on the church, if they have a finance community,

632
00:37:42,453 --> 00:37:48,693
whatever they have, elders or whatever, something needs to be so that there's multiple ways in which

633
00:37:48,693 --> 00:37:52,913
the Bitcoin can be accessed securely. So yeah, it's, that, those are the kinds of things that

634
00:37:52,913 --> 00:37:57,352
I like these conversations coming up because it's, you know, it's, we weren't talking about

635
00:37:57,352 --> 00:38:01,633
that 10 years ago. I know that. A hundred percent. Yeah. The other thing with river, again, we're

636
00:38:01,633 --> 00:38:06,813
just, it's becoming a river podcast. We're just showing river. Uh, but, uh, but no, Alex Leishman

637
00:38:06,813 --> 00:38:12,153
had a tweet, I believe it was a little over a year ago where it was something, something to the

638
00:38:12,153 --> 00:38:17,733
effect of, uh, diversity is not our strength. We are a company that's built on like name three

639
00:38:17,733 --> 00:38:23,293
things. And one of the last things it said was in on Christian values and just within the, within

640
00:38:23,293 --> 00:38:31,273
the tech sector to invoke Christ in any way. Oh yeah. I just, I, my eyes bugged out of my head.

641
00:38:31,313 --> 00:38:34,093
And so I was like, all right, all right, we have to, we're going to exclusively recommend.

642
00:38:34,153 --> 00:38:38,153
I just assumed, this is one of those guys I assume was Christian based. I didn't see that

643
00:38:38,153 --> 00:38:41,313
tweet, but I've seen that, you know, I've been following him for a while now. And like, I just,

644
00:38:41,693 --> 00:38:45,673
I just kind of gathered, okay, he's got to, you know, but I didn't know that for a fact. And I do

645
00:38:45,673 --> 00:38:49,473
know some guys who are at river and they are so it's kind of like okay it's got obviously it's

646
00:38:49,473 --> 00:38:56,113
friendly if nothing else so yeah exactly and that's i mean yeah i really am just grateful we

647
00:38:56,113 --> 00:38:59,653
could say a whole bunch more so i mean yeah we we do work with them if you're if you're listening

648
00:38:59,653 --> 00:39:05,873
you can use uh promo code tgfb so river.com slash tgfb and that will help you get on boarded there

649
00:39:05,873 --> 00:39:10,852
and help support what we're doing as well um i want to kind of just i don't know if there's is

650
00:39:10,852 --> 00:39:14,773
there any other things or you're like hey i've been i know of somebody who's written books like

651
00:39:14,773 --> 00:39:17,713
there's things where you're like, oh, I wish they would have asked me about this. Or is there

652
00:39:17,713 --> 00:39:21,653
anything that comes to mind where you're like, I haven't, I've done a few interviews. I haven't

653
00:39:21,653 --> 00:39:25,633
gotten to talk about this aspect of it that I think for either from the book or just even just

654
00:39:25,633 --> 00:39:30,573
from the, on the topic of Bitcoin and morality more broadly. One of the things that I think is

655
00:39:30,573 --> 00:39:37,293
a real moral question that I hear sometimes is the, the idea, the struggle a lot of people have

656
00:39:37,293 --> 00:39:44,293
the hurdle that Bitcoin isn't real because as Christians, our faith is very incarnational.

657
00:39:44,293 --> 00:39:49,733
God became a physical man. We're not like Gnostics who believe that he kind of appeared as man or

658
00:39:49,733 --> 00:39:53,873
anything like that. We actually think he became flesh and blood in the womb of the Virgin Mary.

659
00:39:54,253 --> 00:39:59,793
He was actually died on the cross. It wasn't just a fake thing. And so reality, you know,

660
00:39:59,852 --> 00:40:04,153
this physical world is very important for Christians. We're, you know, that's a lot of

661
00:40:04,153 --> 00:40:09,113
the heresies over time deny that. They try to make it look, we're just souls that just happen to

662
00:40:09,113 --> 00:40:14,233
have a body. No, we're body and soul. That's how God made us. And so we're not like the angels in

663
00:40:14,233 --> 00:40:19,653
that way. I mean, we really are, the body isn't like a periphery. And so, and that's all true.

664
00:40:19,733 --> 00:40:25,813
We all believe that as Christians, or at least we should. And so like, then we talk about Bitcoin.

665
00:40:26,313 --> 00:40:31,233
There's nothing to hold. There's nothing like gold. There's a beauty in it. And I'm still a

666
00:40:31,233 --> 00:40:36,852
gold fan. I've never like went away from gold. There's a certain beauty in that it has this

667
00:40:36,852 --> 00:40:42,573
value of like, you know, as money has this usefulness and it's morality, but it's also,

668
00:40:42,573 --> 00:40:48,693
oh, I can hold it. I actually have in my hands gold. And you and I both know we can hold Bitcoin,

669
00:40:49,013 --> 00:40:52,473
but we do kind of, for most people, I had to put that in parentheses. We hold Bitcoin.

670
00:40:52,873 --> 00:40:57,153
I can't put it in my hands. You know, my book, you know, I kind of was questioning whether or not

671
00:40:57,153 --> 00:41:01,513
we should do the whole coin on the cover because I knew the audience might not realize that that's

672
00:41:01,513 --> 00:41:07,173
just a metaphor or whatever. But like at the same time, it's like, and so that I think a lot of

673
00:41:07,173 --> 00:41:13,352
people struggle with that. And so I, and I, and I do address it in one of the objections in the book

674
00:41:13,352 --> 00:41:18,493
about that because I have to hurt, I've heard Christians tell me that they're just against

675
00:41:18,493 --> 00:41:24,253
Bitcoin for that reason alone, because they can't trust it. And so like, I do think that first of

676
00:41:24,253 --> 00:41:28,053
all, the more time it goes on, the less it's going to be true. Cause usually the older you are, I'm

677
00:41:28,053 --> 00:41:31,813
out, I'm kind of an old guy. I'm in my fifties, but like I've been a computer programmer. So like

678
00:41:31,813 --> 00:41:36,832
the digital world has been very real to me for a very long time. But I think honestly, like one of

679
00:41:36,832 --> 00:41:44,153
my tax I go on this one is simply that, again, think about what money is. Money is simply that

680
00:41:44,153 --> 00:41:49,433
lubricant so that you can live in the physical world. So you can buy your house, your physical

681
00:41:49,433 --> 00:41:53,513
house. You can buy physical clothes. You can buy food. You can do things like that. You need a

682
00:41:53,513 --> 00:41:58,113
lubricant to make that happen. So you're not trading your bananas for somebody else's cows

683
00:41:58,113 --> 00:42:03,773
or anything like that. And so ultimately, does that lubricant have to be a physical thing if in

684
00:42:03,773 --> 00:42:10,073
the world, the best way to buy those physical goods is online digitally. And so really, I,

685
00:42:10,073 --> 00:42:14,133
that's kind of been my, because I've struggled with answering that for a long time. And so

686
00:42:14,133 --> 00:42:17,873
in writing this book, I was thinking, okay, what is it? And it's kind of to say like,

687
00:42:18,313 --> 00:42:24,013
there's no, there's no intrinsic need for money to be physical. There is a need for us to live in

688
00:42:24,013 --> 00:42:29,633
the physical world. I mean, we had, in fact, I'm, as somebody who is online a lot, I'm often

689
00:42:29,633 --> 00:42:36,813
advocating to myself and others, go outside, walk on the trails, go out and do whatever it is you do

690
00:42:36,813 --> 00:42:42,973
to get outside. That's very important that we experience God's creation directly and we appreciate

691
00:42:42,973 --> 00:42:48,593
it. But money doesn't have to be quote unquote real in the sense that it doesn't have to be

692
00:42:48,593 --> 00:42:54,913
physical. And so I think that's one of the things that I know is a hurdle for a lot. They might not

693
00:42:54,913 --> 00:43:00,293
me express it like that clearly, but I can just tell their real problem is that they can't hold

694
00:43:00,293 --> 00:43:05,953
it. And so they don't really trust it. Yeah. Yeah. One of the, and again, I, we encounter this

695
00:43:05,953 --> 00:43:11,973
objection a lot as well, uh, for a lot of the same reasons. And I think one of the, again,

696
00:43:11,973 --> 00:43:17,673
just some neat, some like helpful context that I, I often add that I found to be helpful in terms of

697
00:43:17,673 --> 00:43:23,713
reframing the, the discussions, cause like there's this, there's this perception that physical equals

698
00:43:23,713 --> 00:43:28,273
better, uh, or it's a more advantageous. And one of the things that we talked about was, so I,

699
00:43:28,513 --> 00:43:33,113
and we didn't get to address this beforehand before the call. Uh, but I was a missionary

700
00:43:33,113 --> 00:43:38,453
and church planter for almost seven years in Uruguay in South America. And half of our church

701
00:43:38,453 --> 00:43:43,193
members were Venezuelan immigrants who had to flee the country on foot, uh, in order to,

702
00:43:43,193 --> 00:43:47,133
to try to get to a place where the government hadn't destroyed the money and, and, you know,

703
00:43:47,133 --> 00:43:51,513
try to make, save money and send home, send some home to their families who stayed in country.

704
00:43:51,852 --> 00:44:06,253
And so in their case, the tangibility of something like gold or silver or even cash would have actually worked against them because they were both government sanctioned thieves in the form of soldiers waiting on the borders who knew that people were leaving with their valuables.

705
00:44:06,293 --> 00:44:10,313
And then also just run of the mill common thieves who were doing the same thing.

706
00:44:10,313 --> 00:44:22,293
And so, you know, the fact that you would have, if somebody would have had a bag of silver or gold that actually would have worked against them in helping them accomplish the goal that they needed, which was to move and start over.

707
00:44:22,293 --> 00:44:42,673
And so I think that just adding some of that more global looking context is something that because of the Christian heart for evangelism and for international missions, I found that something that really appeals to people and that really kind of resonates with their desire.

708
00:44:42,673 --> 00:44:58,213
And so if they see this as something that, if they see Bitcoin as something that enables the spreading of the gospel or just humanitarian aid to move in ways that other things that are, that is limited by other currencies, I found that to be a helpful thing.

709
00:44:58,213 --> 00:45:03,053
Yeah. And I also think, honestly, I think this is more subconscious, but I honestly think people,

710
00:45:03,233 --> 00:45:08,413
they think of like intrinsic value and they literally think in their mind's eye of something

711
00:45:08,413 --> 00:45:13,153
inside the physical thing. Like they think of it as like, I'm not saying they consciously think

712
00:45:13,153 --> 00:45:17,352
that, but I honestly think it's like, okay, this has intrinsic value because I can hold it. It's

713
00:45:17,352 --> 00:45:22,473
like inside it's intrinsic value. Well, there's nothing inside Bitcoin and there's nothing, you

714
00:45:22,473 --> 00:45:25,553
know, so like it must not have intrinsic value. And of course there's the whole problem of intrinsic

715
00:45:25,553 --> 00:45:30,193
value in the first place. But, but the point is like, when people think of, is this valuable,

716
00:45:30,193 --> 00:45:35,973
they think of the physical like aspects of it that makes it valuable. And it's really that,

717
00:45:36,093 --> 00:45:40,453
that's not what money is though, of course. So that I think is, is one of the biggest hurdles

718
00:45:40,453 --> 00:45:46,873
I've seen among Christians. And it comes from a very legitimate view of the world,

719
00:45:47,073 --> 00:45:49,973
the importance of the physical. So I'm not, I don't want to like discount that,

720
00:45:50,413 --> 00:45:55,173
but just explain why in this case, we're talking about money. It's not, it's not the same as what

721
00:45:55,173 --> 00:45:58,033
talking about whether or not, you know, we should value God's creation.

722
00:45:59,073 --> 00:46:02,593
Yeah. Well, the other thing, the other thing that you, you get people who,

723
00:46:02,733 --> 00:46:12,433
they kind of react against the idea of the thing that motivates them to bring up the inherent value

724
00:46:12,433 --> 00:46:17,852
or intrinsic value is just, some of it is just pushing back against the idea of like moral

725
00:46:17,852 --> 00:46:23,673
relativism where like all, everything is relative. And I'm just like, okay, I agree with you.

726
00:46:23,673 --> 00:46:29,773
people have intrinsic value like people because they bear god's image like they have intrinsic

727
00:46:29,773 --> 00:46:34,513
value independent of what they do independent of all these other things but in terms of things

728
00:46:34,513 --> 00:46:40,893
under the sun that don't bear the image of god like the value of anything is is subjective given

729
00:46:40,893 --> 00:46:45,852
the the circumstances even something i have a footnote in my book where i'm i'm talking about

730
00:46:45,852 --> 00:46:50,773
in the book about how basically values 100 subjective is determined by the person and i put

731
00:46:50,773 --> 00:46:55,513
a footnote and I say, of course, I'm talking about things you can legitimately buy and sell.

732
00:46:56,073 --> 00:47:01,233
People have an intrinsic value of images of God. And because that's why you can't,

733
00:47:01,352 --> 00:47:04,852
you should not be allowed to buy and sell them. So it's funny you said that because I was like,

734
00:47:04,913 --> 00:47:08,133
when I was writing the book, I was saying anything subject to value. I was like, oh,

735
00:47:08,193 --> 00:47:10,753
there's going to be at least one Christian reading this. And I'm like, wait a minute.

736
00:47:10,813 --> 00:47:14,113
Are you saying like, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. People have intrinsic value.

737
00:47:14,113 --> 00:47:18,332
That's the only thing. We're kindred spirits in that regard, Eric.

738
00:47:18,332 --> 00:47:24,293
Eric. Okay. So Eric, if you don't have anything else, do we have other things to talk about?

739
00:47:24,332 --> 00:47:28,433
One other thing. So I just happened to be on the internet the other day. I found an article

740
00:47:28,433 --> 00:47:33,573
and I'll just share. Let me see if we can share the thing here. Let's see here.

741
00:47:34,493 --> 00:47:38,513
There it is right there. Okay. So I happened to be on there and I came across this article that

742
00:47:38,513 --> 00:47:44,193
said Catholics are rapidly losing ground. And then the other day when I was preparing for this,

743
00:47:44,193 --> 00:47:49,033
uh, oh, can you see it? There we go. Okay. Uh, I was preparing for this interview and I saw, wait,

744
00:47:49,193 --> 00:47:55,273
this article is written by Eric Sammons. And I thought, what are the odds of that? Uh, and

745
00:47:55,273 --> 00:48:01,473
basically the big kind of takeaway from the article, uh, is based on a Pew survey was that,

746
00:48:01,473 --> 00:48:05,933
uh, basically, uh, for every, let me see if I can find the number. There you go. For every

747
00:48:05,933 --> 00:48:11,573
a hundred people who joined the Roman Catholic church, uh, 840 people are leaving. Um, so that,

748
00:48:11,573 --> 00:48:13,693
Again, those numbers shocked me.

749
00:48:14,053 --> 00:48:19,993
They shocked me in part because I'm someone who probably is as frequently online.

750
00:48:20,113 --> 00:48:20,352
Oh, no.

751
00:48:20,852 --> 00:48:21,473
I lost Eric.

752
00:48:22,653 --> 00:48:23,653
I don't know what's happening.

753
00:48:24,153 --> 00:48:24,633
I apologize.

754
00:48:24,653 --> 00:48:25,073
There you are.

755
00:48:25,153 --> 00:48:26,373
Yeah, you pulled up my article.

756
00:48:26,373 --> 00:48:26,913
Oh, you're good.

757
00:48:28,033 --> 00:48:28,713
How much did you?

758
00:48:28,713 --> 00:48:29,933
You just pulled up my article and said,

759
00:48:29,973 --> 00:48:31,513
cats are losing ground.

760
00:48:32,133 --> 00:48:32,852
So, yeah.

761
00:48:32,973 --> 00:48:37,893
It's kind of the big signal or the big takeaway from the article is that

762
00:48:37,893 --> 00:48:44,933
Basically, according to Pew, for every 100 people who are joining the Catholic Church, there's 840 leaving.

763
00:48:46,133 --> 00:48:48,133
I've thought about this issue a lot.

764
00:48:48,332 --> 00:49:06,133
First of all, I was surprised by the article because as somebody who, I wouldn't say terminally online, but someone who's online probably more than the average person, I see voices like Michael Knowles, who I actually had the privilege to go on his show to talk about Thank God for Bitcoin a few months ago, around a year ago.

765
00:49:06,133 --> 00:49:22,393
I see guys like Matt Fradd. I see a number of guys who have increasingly large platforms. And so if one were to only judge by some of these online platforms, you would assume that the Roman Catholic Church is growing significantly.

766
00:49:22,393 --> 00:49:28,693
You would also assume based on guys like Jonathan Peugeot that orthodoxy would also be growing like crazy.

767
00:49:29,133 --> 00:49:40,553
And yet when you actually look at the numbers, despite these one or two outliers, what's really going on in terms of the large numbers is actually telling a far different story.

768
00:49:40,693 --> 00:49:46,753
So I would kind of love to kind of hear your perspective on that article, what motivated you to write it other than the obvious.

769
00:49:46,753 --> 00:49:48,673
It's something I've been studying for years now.

770
00:49:48,733 --> 00:49:53,053
Like I said, I was a director of evangelization for five years for a diocese, which, you know,

771
00:49:53,113 --> 00:49:56,673
what a bishop rules in the Catholic Church overseas.

772
00:49:57,213 --> 00:50:01,393
And so, like, I very much have been studying these numbers for over a decade now, about

773
00:50:01,393 --> 00:50:02,633
15, 20 years now.

774
00:50:02,713 --> 00:50:07,513
And I've seen that they've all been going the same direction, which is down for a very

775
00:50:07,513 --> 00:50:08,332
long time.

776
00:50:08,773 --> 00:50:11,573
Since, like, before, really 2000, they started.

777
00:50:12,093 --> 00:50:16,013
And what I noticed was, like, in America, it's most, it's all religions.

778
00:50:16,313 --> 00:50:20,852
It's not just Catholicism, but the one I'm concerned about, because that's what I am, is Catholicism.

779
00:50:21,453 --> 00:50:22,733
And so I saw this piece today.

780
00:50:22,773 --> 00:50:24,393
I was like, I want to write about this as well.

781
00:50:24,553 --> 00:50:28,693
And I will tell you, I got a lot of pushback in the Catholic world because of what you just said.

782
00:50:28,713 --> 00:50:30,953
Like, wait a minute, things are looking good for us.

783
00:50:31,253 --> 00:50:33,753
And the truth is, they're right and I'm right.

784
00:50:33,993 --> 00:50:43,493
In the sense that, okay, we have in the Catholic Church, we've had for a long time a real, what's the word?

785
00:50:43,493 --> 00:50:50,273
like weakness at our church level, what we call our parishes, in that there's a lot of just not a

786
00:50:50,273 --> 00:50:56,673
lot of enthusiasm for the faith. There's like poor education of our young people. And so what happens

787
00:50:56,673 --> 00:51:02,093
is like your average Catholic parish, when you go to it, it just is not something that's attractive

788
00:51:02,093 --> 00:51:07,313
to people. It does not really preach the gospel strongly. It doesn't like stand out. It basically,

789
00:51:07,453 --> 00:51:12,073
a lot of times the sermon each week is, okay, go out there and be nice. Well, that's not going to

790
00:51:12,073 --> 00:51:16,773
attract anybody. It's like the same problem with mainline Protestantism. It really is the same

791
00:51:16,773 --> 00:51:22,433
thing where it started, we didn't go quite as woke as they did, but we did do the same problem of

792
00:51:22,433 --> 00:51:27,693
let's go ahead and conform to the world, not say anything controversial, not push people.

793
00:51:28,113 --> 00:51:33,473
And that's still very widespread. It was very, it started in the seventies really and eighties,

794
00:51:33,473 --> 00:51:38,053
and it's still kind of widespread, particularly with, because, you know, priests were older and

795
00:51:38,053 --> 00:51:44,773
things like that. That's the case. And so that's why, think about if you're growing up as a Catholic

796
00:51:44,773 --> 00:51:50,493
and that's your experience of Catholicism, yes, so you're a young man. Once you get out of the house,

797
00:51:50,693 --> 00:51:55,893
you have no desire to go back to that. Because why would you? You don't, I mean, I would say as a

798
00:51:55,893 --> 00:52:01,093
Catholic, like the underlying truth is so important and all that. Okay, fine. But it doesn't mean it

799
00:52:01,093 --> 00:52:04,933
got to them. It doesn't mean they understand it because all they heard was to be Catholic means

800
00:52:04,933 --> 00:52:09,293
you be nice. And it's like, well, I can be nice without being Catholic, with all the rules and

801
00:52:09,293 --> 00:52:14,033
all the, you know, the obligations. Let me just go ahead and just be nice on my own. So it really

802
00:52:14,033 --> 00:52:19,852
was this kind of like relativism of you can be Catholic if you want or you don't have to be,

803
00:52:19,913 --> 00:52:22,753
you can be wherever you want. You know, it doesn't matter if you're atheist, as long as you're nice.

804
00:52:22,753 --> 00:52:29,933
And so that really kind of crept in. However, I will say over the past few years, particularly

805
00:52:29,933 --> 00:52:36,633
since COVID it's happened. There has been a real resurgence in the Catholic church of a lot of

806
00:52:36,633 --> 00:52:41,332
voices, a lot of people. And so what's happened is a lot of the more traditional and conservative

807
00:52:41,332 --> 00:52:46,993
parishes, they have grown like crazy. Like my parish is like super traditional. We actually

808
00:52:46,993 --> 00:52:53,413
celebrate the mass in Latin. That's how traditional we are. And so we have grown like wildfire in the

809
00:52:53,413 --> 00:52:57,513
past five years. So it's funny, I'm writing this article about how everybody's leading the Catholic

810
00:52:57,513 --> 00:53:02,973
church. And at the same time, my own parish is growing like crazy. And so I think people sometimes

811
00:53:02,973 --> 00:53:07,673
have a hard time accepting both those things, but I think they're both true. And so my personal

812
00:53:07,673 --> 00:53:12,773
opinion is, my prediction, I should say, is over the next 10 to 20 years in the Catholic church,

813
00:53:12,773 --> 00:53:17,793
we will see the overall numbers going down, continue to go down. But what we will see is

814
00:53:17,793 --> 00:53:23,313
the fervency, the faithfulness of those who are in the church, the percentage will go up a lot.

815
00:53:23,573 --> 00:53:27,213
And I personally think, I don't want anybody to leave. I'm not like trying to claim, I think it's

816
00:53:27,213 --> 00:53:33,233
always a sad thing. But ultimately, I feel like that's a base for future evangelization, because

817
00:53:33,233 --> 00:53:38,053
now you have your members where they are committed, and they're really serious about it. And this goes

818
00:53:38,053 --> 00:53:45,133
from the bishops, the priests, and the people in the pews. That, I think, is a better step

819
00:53:45,133 --> 00:53:50,332
towards getting to where we want to be. So I think both are true. But I do think I want to wake up

820
00:53:50,332 --> 00:53:56,973
Catholics to this idea that if you're online a lot, you might think, oh, Catholic Church is going

821
00:53:56,973 --> 00:54:02,293
crazy growing but no there are a lot of people still leaving out the door and we got to remember

822
00:54:02,293 --> 00:54:06,653
that because they're not known like when a parish brings we the way we do it in the church is when

823
00:54:06,653 --> 00:54:10,953
somebody becomes catholic they go through a process and in the easter they're received into

824
00:54:10,953 --> 00:54:16,352
the church and what what we see that every easter it's like exciting oh we just had like our our

825
00:54:16,352 --> 00:54:20,393
parish had like 12 this year we had like about 20 the year before and so and we're not that big of

826
00:54:20,393 --> 00:54:24,653
a parish so it was good enough get you all excited and they tell their stories like oh this is great

827
00:54:24,653 --> 00:54:27,593
we had this one guy he was an atheist and he became

828
00:54:27,593 --> 00:54:30,773
Catholic and now his sister who's an atheist is coming in next year and so

829
00:54:30,773 --> 00:54:35,393
you get excited you didn't see though there was no party there's no

830
00:54:35,393 --> 00:54:38,273
like news about the fact that all of a sudden people who've been going just

831
00:54:38,273 --> 00:54:41,633
don't aren't going anymore their kid went off to college and he

832
00:54:41,633 --> 00:54:45,293
never he just left the faith those are things you don't hear

833
00:54:45,293 --> 00:54:49,453
and so like I think and those numbers are a lot greater still so that that's

834
00:54:49,453 --> 00:54:52,553
kind of in a nutshell what I was talking about there was

835
00:54:52,553 --> 00:54:55,473
And the Pew numbers coincide with everything else I've read.

836
00:54:55,852 --> 00:54:57,993
There's no, some people were trying to dispute the numbers.

837
00:54:58,113 --> 00:54:58,653
They weren't accurate.

838
00:54:58,773 --> 00:55:03,133
I'm like, ballpark at least, it's what I've seen for 15 years.

839
00:55:03,293 --> 00:55:06,613
So I don't see any reason to doubt their numbers at this point.

840
00:55:07,993 --> 00:55:14,753
I think another one of the things that I see is, and I just have been astounded because,

841
00:55:14,873 --> 00:55:17,913
I mean, you look at, you think about what we've heard for a long time is,

842
00:55:17,913 --> 00:55:30,993
And it comes from like, there's a healthy seed of truth in it is we want to create like a, we want the faith to be accessible to anybody.

843
00:55:31,553 --> 00:55:33,873
And like, that's a good desire.

844
00:55:34,433 --> 00:55:38,433
Jesus used agrarian, you know, parables like that were made to be understood.

845
00:55:38,433 --> 00:55:49,513
And at the same time, you know, and so a lot of pastors, a lot of churches have gone that route where we're trying to make things very practical, very easy to understand, very short sermons.

846
00:55:50,173 --> 00:55:54,332
Yes, very new person or very visitor friendly.

847
00:55:55,433 --> 00:56:01,313
But then what you also see is you see Joe Rogan, who has three-hour, four-hour podcasts.

848
00:56:01,533 --> 00:56:05,433
And you see Netflix streaming where you have eight-hour series and you have all these things.

849
00:56:05,433 --> 00:56:24,329
And so there clearly an appetite for people and an appetite and a willingness to to engage with very difficult nuanced content that basically over the course of hours weeks whatever

850
00:56:24,689 --> 00:56:30,449
and there's an appetite for it and a willingness and a demand for it that's there, I feel like, more than ever before in some days.

851
00:56:30,689 --> 00:56:39,129
And so it's kind of flying in the face of a lot of these, you know, of like one true, again, it's true that like you ought to want to do this

852
00:56:39,129 --> 00:56:42,009
for the sake of children and for the sake of new people.

853
00:56:42,009 --> 00:56:44,669
But the reality is that people won't always be new.

854
00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:46,829
And if you always treat people,

855
00:56:47,069 --> 00:56:49,469
if you dumb things down always,

856
00:56:50,389 --> 00:56:54,049
then there's not going to be that same sort of intellectual challenge

857
00:56:54,049 --> 00:56:58,129
that is demanded within the call to discipleship.

858
00:56:58,129 --> 00:56:59,769
Yeah, I mean, if you look at Jesus too,

859
00:57:00,149 --> 00:57:03,989
like he used these parables and everything that anybody can understand.

860
00:57:04,249 --> 00:57:06,969
But there were times people went away from him and he was just like, okay.

861
00:57:06,969 --> 00:57:12,229
like he was very challenging and i mean obviously they end up killing him for it and so like you

862
00:57:12,229 --> 00:57:16,769
know we have to there's a story that i i tell that happened to me the years ago it kind of made it

863
00:57:16,769 --> 00:57:22,329
all click in my mind my daughter was in uh she did fast pitch softball and she's very involved

864
00:57:22,329 --> 00:57:27,929
then she was on like a good team stuff like that and we we were i remember we were out of turn at

865
00:57:27,929 --> 00:57:34,049
one point i saw a sign that was saying how uh tryouts for this new travel team and we were never

866
00:57:34,049 --> 00:57:36,909
like super crazy into that because i just felt like it took away from our family i was having

867
00:57:36,909 --> 00:57:43,649
kids i can't like be doing that crazy stuff but the flyer was super intense about like okay you're

868
00:57:43,649 --> 00:57:46,569
gonna you gotta make a huge commitment it's gonna be all this stuff you're gonna do this

869
00:57:46,569 --> 00:57:50,989
we're gonna take the best and it was like very much like hardcore telling you this is a huge deal

870
00:57:50,989 --> 00:57:56,589
at the same weekend of this tournament we saw this flyer we were at we're at this church it

871
00:57:56,589 --> 00:57:59,469
wasn't ours because we were traveling you know we were like out of town for this term whatever

872
00:57:59,469 --> 00:58:01,529
and it was a Catholic parish.

873
00:58:01,889 --> 00:58:03,189
And we have altar servers,

874
00:58:03,449 --> 00:58:05,409
the kids who kind of help out at the altar

875
00:58:05,409 --> 00:58:06,549
during the mass.

876
00:58:06,969 --> 00:58:09,489
And it was like an ad for they needed more altar servers.

877
00:58:09,689 --> 00:58:11,089
And it was completely like,

878
00:58:11,509 --> 00:58:12,969
oh, no experience needed.

879
00:58:13,269 --> 00:58:14,749
You had to make much commitment.

880
00:58:14,949 --> 00:58:15,529
It's super easy.

881
00:58:15,789 --> 00:58:18,409
It was completely downplaying how easy it was.

882
00:58:18,889 --> 00:58:21,009
I guarantee, and I know this from checking on,

883
00:58:21,069 --> 00:58:23,229
I guarantee I know which one attracted me.

884
00:58:25,449 --> 00:58:27,189
Apparently Eric's having a little bit

885
00:58:27,189 --> 00:58:28,229
of technical difficulties.

886
00:58:28,349 --> 00:58:29,409
We'll see if we can get him back here.

887
00:58:29,469 --> 00:58:36,609
i'm really sorry it must be i must have a bad connection today or something

888
00:58:36,609 --> 00:58:41,109
yeah i don't know what's wrong what's the deal but no worries so uh continue yeah you said you

889
00:58:41,109 --> 00:58:45,709
knew which one of the which one was going to get more and it was just it's it's the one that

890
00:58:45,709 --> 00:58:50,669
demands more and i really feel like that's where we dropped the ball because we're so much trying

891
00:58:50,669 --> 00:58:56,049
to be relevant to be seeker friendly all whatever term you want to use and really jesus was very

892
00:58:56,049 --> 00:59:00,989
demanding. And so we have to be demanding and you do in a charitable way. I mean, Jesus was never a

893
00:59:00,989 --> 00:59:05,769
jerk, but he was very demanding. Um, and so I just feel like that's, that's something that,

894
00:59:06,049 --> 00:59:09,789
and we've seen that because like I said, in, in, at least for in the Catholic church,

895
00:59:09,909 --> 00:59:15,329
the churches, the parishes that are the most demanding are the ones that are the most successful

896
00:59:15,329 --> 00:59:20,129
now. And I think that's true also in the Protestant world. Um, it just like, because the main line,

897
00:59:20,209 --> 00:59:23,769
that's what killed them. They're just like, okay, we're going to be like everybody else. We're not

898
00:59:23,769 --> 00:59:27,829
going to demand anything. And now nobody wants, I grew up, I actually grew up Methodist. Uh, so I

899
00:59:27,829 --> 00:59:33,069
saw that happen, um, before I became Catholic. And so, yeah, it just is, uh, so I think that

900
00:59:33,069 --> 00:59:38,429
definitely is part of the equation. And, and that's why, because especially young people,

901
00:59:38,429 --> 00:59:44,089
why would a, you know, 20 year old guy who's deciding, what am I going to do with my life?

902
00:59:44,089 --> 00:59:47,889
Be like, okay, I can just like waste my time over here where they just tell me to be nice.

903
00:59:47,929 --> 00:59:51,329
And they don't really, they're just like trying to make, they're, they're constantly trying to

904
00:59:51,329 --> 00:59:56,569
appease me or like you see, like I like running and I love watching like ultra running and stuff

905
00:59:56,569 --> 01:00:01,549
like that. Those guys, I mean, it's like, they're so admirable because they're like, I am going to

906
01:00:01,549 --> 01:00:05,949
sacrifice everything to try to achieve this goal. I mean, the Bible talks about this, you know,

907
01:00:05,949 --> 01:00:11,329
run the race to win. And so I think the same thing here where it's like, I really feel like

908
01:00:11,329 --> 01:00:18,009
our churches need to be much more forthright of like, it's not easy to be a Christian. It's a

909
01:00:18,009 --> 01:00:28,009
It's a hurdle. You're going to have to work at this. There's going to be days you make sacrifices, i.e. take up your cross and follow me. And when you don't do that, I think you lose people.

910
01:00:29,269 --> 01:00:44,289
Yeah. And I think also, I mean, just theologically, I think that, I mean, the scriptures, like the scriptures, the more that I, I mean, you would think I've been interacting with the scriptures basically my entire life, but seriously, since I was probably 17 or 18.

911
01:00:44,289 --> 01:00:49,829
and I went to Bible college at age 18. My parents were going to make me go for at least one year.

912
01:00:50,429 --> 01:00:56,049
But by the time I got around to it, I was thrilled. And so we spent, we studied the Bible from,

913
01:00:56,169 --> 01:01:03,369
it was a Bible Institute. So it was just the Bible we were studying from like 7am to 1pm.

914
01:01:03,969 --> 01:01:07,549
And I went in thinking, you know what? I know the Bible pretty well. I've been going to church

915
01:01:07,549 --> 01:01:12,829
every Sunday, my whole life, most Wednesdays as well. And then I get there and I just was

916
01:01:12,829 --> 01:01:19,429
absolutely floored by how much of the Bible I was completely A. And so, and so I just think like,

917
01:01:19,489 --> 01:01:24,529
that's another thing that, I mean, I just think that theologically, there's so much depth,

918
01:01:24,709 --> 01:01:30,149
there's so much wisdom to speak to all kinds of areas of life that aren't, that aren't intuitive.

919
01:01:30,149 --> 01:01:35,909
And that we just, the average person just doesn't realize you are there. I would ask, I would just,

920
01:01:36,049 --> 01:01:40,309
again, this won't be like hostile at all, but like, I would like, I mean, as somebody who's

921
01:01:40,309 --> 01:01:44,569
at a church that, you know, teaches in Latin, I mean, that would be something where I'm like,

922
01:01:44,629 --> 01:01:47,849
man, if I was at a church where I didn't understand the language, like that would be

923
01:01:47,849 --> 01:01:52,829
really challenging for me. So kind of how do you think about the role of the Latin mass?

924
01:01:53,329 --> 01:01:58,509
Again, I know all of the Catholic, Roman Catholic Church don't do Latin masses, but yeah.

925
01:01:58,509 --> 01:02:03,729
Well, the first thing though is we actually don't teach in Latin. The sermon is in English.

926
01:02:04,829 --> 01:02:09,409
So, but the service, the whole mass service is all in Latin. And really it's a matter of,

927
01:02:09,409 --> 01:02:14,689
in the Catholic world, it's a high hurdle to try to explain this quickly, you know,

928
01:02:14,749 --> 01:02:18,789
to a mostly Protestant audience. I understand that. But like we have a belief in like,

929
01:02:19,089 --> 01:02:22,849
you know, what St. Paul says when he says, I give to you what has been handed on to me.

930
01:02:22,929 --> 01:02:27,269
And that word handed on in Greek is really the Latin term for it would be traditionus,

931
01:02:27,269 --> 01:02:31,509
meaning to hand it on the tradition. Obviously there's bad traditions. Jesus condemned,

932
01:02:31,749 --> 01:02:36,849
you know, traditions of men. But basically the idea is we look at the mass primarily not as a

933
01:02:36,849 --> 01:02:42,409
teaching vehicle, we look at as glorifying and worshiping God. And so what we say is,

934
01:02:42,449 --> 01:02:48,369
what we're saying is we want to do the best thing we possibly can do to glorify God. And so all the

935
01:02:48,369 --> 01:02:54,109
different actions we have, like the incense and the bells and all that stuff, the statues,

936
01:02:54,249 --> 01:03:00,209
everything that is all like, we want to glorify God. And Latin is how the Catholics before us have

937
01:03:00,209 --> 01:03:04,169
all done this. And so we're going to continue to do this. And like, there's a certain beauty in

938
01:03:04,169 --> 01:03:10,389
night and because there's this precision that it's no longer about the priest who's celebrating.

939
01:03:10,489 --> 01:03:14,889
It's no longer about him. He kind of disappears. And what he's doing is he's just simply repeating

940
01:03:14,889 --> 01:03:20,769
the prayers of the church to glorify God. So he kind of disappears when, if it's in English,

941
01:03:21,189 --> 01:03:26,009
a lot of times he will want to be a little more spontaneous and it becomes too much about him.

942
01:03:26,529 --> 01:03:33,429
So to be clear, the sermon is in English. So the teaching part of it is in English,

943
01:03:33,429 --> 01:03:36,489
but that really, it's a whole different way of looking at kind of purpose.

944
01:03:36,489 --> 01:03:39,509
Like we're not seeing as primordial teaching much more as glorifying God.

945
01:03:39,569 --> 01:03:43,369
And so the Latin isn't, and the truth is, here's the thing. You,

946
01:03:43,589 --> 01:03:45,569
I do not know Latin. Like my wife knows Latin.

947
01:03:45,629 --> 01:03:47,749
She actually teaches Latin to our kids and stuff like that.

948
01:03:48,049 --> 01:03:51,149
I've never been good at languages. I'm not even that great English,

949
01:03:51,209 --> 01:03:54,069
to be honest. But like, but with Latin,

950
01:03:54,749 --> 01:03:56,289
once you start going for enough time,

951
01:03:56,329 --> 01:03:58,029
I've been going down Latin mass for 15 years.

952
01:03:58,229 --> 01:04:00,129
I know exactly what's going on at all times.

953
01:04:00,129 --> 01:04:04,969
and i don't even like and i and i could not speak a word of latin to maybe a couple words but like

954
01:04:04,969 --> 01:04:10,689
and i know because of like and that's the other reason why most people when you go to mass it's

955
01:04:10,689 --> 01:04:16,409
again it's kind of like the anti what you just said we're not you know uh going after visitors

956
01:04:16,409 --> 01:04:21,929
like you know obviously want visitors come but the point is like yeah we assume when you're there

957
01:04:21,929 --> 01:04:26,849
you've been there and so like you've grown up with it probably you you you know what's going on

958
01:04:26,849 --> 01:04:33,769
And then what happens, like at our parish, if we see somebody new, almost, you know, we have about 500 people at our service.

959
01:04:33,929 --> 01:04:36,149
So we can tell often if somebody's new.

960
01:04:36,729 --> 01:04:46,929
Somebody's going up to them afterwards or even beforehand, just saying, hey, just, you know, like sometimes we have like these missiles that there are these little booklets that give the English translation of the Latin.

961
01:04:47,149 --> 01:04:48,069
And they'll be fun with it.

962
01:04:48,069 --> 01:04:48,849
They don't even know where it is.

963
01:04:49,149 --> 01:04:51,389
Usually what we tell them is we just kind of say, don't worry about this time.

964
01:04:51,449 --> 01:04:52,989
Just kind of experience it.

965
01:04:53,209 --> 01:04:55,249
And then we'll like, you know, we'll help you out.

966
01:04:55,249 --> 01:04:56,889
So we do those things, but like, yeah.

967
01:04:57,009 --> 01:04:59,009
I'm at a, just, yeah, just so you know,

968
01:04:59,069 --> 01:05:01,469
I'm at a higher liturgy like in church.

969
01:05:01,649 --> 01:05:02,829
So like we do a lot.

970
01:05:02,849 --> 01:05:04,069
So you understand the language I don't speak.

971
01:05:04,369 --> 01:05:05,189
Motivations, yeah, yeah.

972
01:05:05,249 --> 01:05:07,509
And it's, and in terms of a lot of the motivation,

973
01:05:07,709 --> 01:05:09,969
like recognizing God's, like this,

974
01:05:10,209 --> 01:05:12,969
we're not just, we're not just here as a group

975
01:05:12,969 --> 01:05:14,729
to, you know, to talk with ourselves.

976
01:05:14,729 --> 01:05:16,909
Like we're acknowledging like God is actually here.

977
01:05:17,069 --> 01:05:17,189
Yeah.

978
01:05:17,449 --> 01:05:18,649
Like he's taking part.

979
01:05:19,049 --> 01:05:20,969
Like I would, I mean, it is interesting though,

980
01:05:20,969 --> 01:05:23,789
because I mean, you mentioned the traditions of men.

981
01:05:23,789 --> 01:05:32,429
And that's obviously something that, again, I think there's real issues, and yet the overreaction of that can just be, oh, we just get rid of everything.

982
01:05:33,069 --> 01:05:43,589
We just decide, every individual church or pastor decides what service is going to look like, and there's no regulating principle or something, no regulation of what's going on.

983
01:05:43,889 --> 01:05:45,929
I think that's obviously something bad that can happen.

984
01:05:45,929 --> 01:06:03,089
At the same time, I'm just thinking of like, it's interesting to me. I would love to know, you're my captive, Rory Capricere. But if you're, I mean, we look at the goal of passing down the traditions that were received.

985
01:06:03,089 --> 01:06:13,889
Like part of the language thing I get, like when, you know, the great schism happened, like all this kind of stuff, you start going in Latin, but like in probably even before that.

986
01:06:13,989 --> 01:06:18,789
But like the interesting thing would be like, I mean, Paul was presumably speaking like Greek.

987
01:06:18,969 --> 01:06:21,189
So why, like why, why Latin instead of Greek?

988
01:06:21,549 --> 01:06:31,549
So if you look at it, you know, very early on the church kind of divided, not in a schism way, but just kind of in a cultural way between the Greek East and the Latin West.

989
01:06:31,549 --> 01:06:46,209
And so very soon in the West, the liturgies were in Latin because that was the language of the people. And in the East, they were in Greek. And so what happened is as the church continued to grow in the West, it just was like Latin continued to be language.

990
01:06:46,209 --> 01:06:53,849
And then you would have a breakup, like all of a sudden in different areas of Europe, Western Europe and England, things like that, different languages are developing.

991
01:06:54,329 --> 01:06:55,669
But it was very common.

992
01:06:55,749 --> 01:07:01,089
It's happened in the East as well of like, okay, there's a liturgical language and then there's the common language.

993
01:07:01,409 --> 01:07:05,169
And so the liturgical language in the East was Greek or maybe church Slavonic.

994
01:07:05,289 --> 01:07:13,289
Like, for example, a lot of Greek Orthodox, I'm sorry, Eastern Orthodox churches, they are not in a modern language or in like church Slavonic or something like that.

995
01:07:13,289 --> 01:07:18,969
And this idea became very common among Christians that like, oh, there's this language.

996
01:07:19,469 --> 01:07:25,889
It allows us like psychologically, if nothing else, to realize how sacred this is.

997
01:07:25,949 --> 01:07:31,209
Because you and I talking here, I mean, there's a certain sacredness to it because we're talking about our Lord and things like that.

998
01:07:31,249 --> 01:07:32,769
So I'm not trying to act like it's not.

999
01:07:33,229 --> 01:07:41,389
But like as soon as you go into a service that's in Latin, you're like, oh, I need to like, you know, kind of sit up a little straighter maybe.

1000
01:07:41,389 --> 01:07:46,629
I need to recognize this is something, because like, you know, since the priest is talking to

1001
01:07:46,629 --> 01:07:51,949
God, not you. And so like, and God can understand Latin even if you can't. And so there's this idea

1002
01:07:51,949 --> 01:07:57,949
of like the sacredness of the importance of we're in, we're on holy ground right here when we come

1003
01:07:57,949 --> 01:08:01,589
into church. Obviously when you leave, you're still, you know, all the things that are true

1004
01:08:01,589 --> 01:08:06,609
about, you're still following Christ, being a disciple, all that. But there is a place for this.

1005
01:08:06,609 --> 01:08:12,269
like, you know, Moses at the burning bush, there is a place for certain times and places that are

1006
01:08:12,269 --> 01:08:16,729
more sacred. And so that's kind of the Latin is just part of that. Now, I want to make it clear

1007
01:08:16,729 --> 01:08:21,389
that in the Catholic church today, the vast majority of churches are in the vernacular in

1008
01:08:21,389 --> 01:08:26,389
English or whatever. But this was like certain parishes maintain this with this belief that like,

1009
01:08:26,469 --> 01:08:31,909
we really think this, and I feel it, I honestly, I feel it like when I walk in because of the

1010
01:08:31,909 --> 01:08:36,669
architecture because of the smell with the incense, you know, it's kind of baked into our church is

1011
01:08:36,669 --> 01:08:42,149
about 175 years old. And so the physical building, it smells like incense when you walk in and then

1012
01:08:42,149 --> 01:08:46,429
the Latin and the chant, and we have this beautiful music that's a Gregorian chant and things like

1013
01:08:46,429 --> 01:08:53,329
that. I personally, I feel a little bit like, okay, I'm leaving earth for a moment. I'm entering

1014
01:08:53,329 --> 01:08:58,129
into the heavenly liturgy. I'm becoming part of the liturgy that we all will be part of that he

1015
01:08:58,129 --> 01:09:04,729
talks about in Revelation, in heaven, at least we all hope to be part of. And so I feel like that.

1016
01:09:04,829 --> 01:09:09,589
And so I escape from the worldly cares. Trust me, I get distracted as much as the next guy.

1017
01:09:09,709 --> 01:09:15,609
But the point is, is that it keeps bringing me back to, okay, this is different. This is sacred.

1018
01:09:15,969 --> 01:09:21,429
And so it helps me focus on, okay, I'm here to worship God. And so I think that's kind of the,

1019
01:09:21,769 --> 01:09:27,489
and that over time just happened. And so the Latin was basically fixed in the liturgy by about

1020
01:09:27,489 --> 01:09:29,009
the third or fourth century in the West.

1021
01:09:29,769 --> 01:09:32,109
Time of St. Gregory the Great, 600 AD,

1022
01:09:32,689 --> 01:09:34,169
is when it became fully fixed.

1023
01:09:34,269 --> 01:09:36,149
And really, the liturgy itself

1024
01:09:36,149 --> 01:09:38,269
hasn't really changed substantially at all

1025
01:09:38,269 --> 01:09:41,209
since about the seventh century, so.

1026
01:09:42,369 --> 01:09:42,609
Yeah.

1027
01:09:42,989 --> 01:09:44,369
Yeah, no, that totally makes sense.

1028
01:09:44,369 --> 01:09:46,809
And again, you also get some of the,

1029
01:09:47,049 --> 01:09:48,909
again, because of the politics

1030
01:09:48,909 --> 01:09:50,429
between the Eastern and the Western churches,

1031
01:09:50,629 --> 01:09:52,829
I'm sure the language as well,

1032
01:09:52,969 --> 01:09:54,649
that probably plays a role as well.

1033
01:09:54,889 --> 01:09:57,209
I do just think it is one of these things

1034
01:09:57,209 --> 01:10:02,709
where again, it's like, and this has been true of a lot of the things that I've observed. I mean,

1035
01:10:02,809 --> 01:10:10,629
yeah, I've observed within like the higher liturgy churches is like, there is so much thought that

1036
01:10:10,629 --> 01:10:17,829
goes into why they do what they do. The thing that it's easy to neglect is communicating the

1037
01:10:17,829 --> 01:10:23,909
rye and rather than just leaving it at the level of this is just what we do. And I think like that,

1038
01:10:23,909 --> 01:10:29,629
that education process is probably also contributing to like some of the walking away,

1039
01:10:29,629 --> 01:10:34,309
you know, as well as like, if, if this, if there's all of this, especially when you're,

1040
01:10:34,309 --> 01:10:38,749
you know, adding the extra, extra element of this being all done in a different language on top of

1041
01:10:38,749 --> 01:10:45,589
the, you know, the seemingly like strange things that again, even our church would do things that

1042
01:10:45,589 --> 01:10:51,109
would look strange to the average American who just steps in there. I think that, you know, if,

1043
01:10:51,109 --> 01:10:56,509
if you're not doing a good job of explaining, you know, the why and the why, like there,

1044
01:10:56,629 --> 01:11:00,089
we didn't always do it this way. We, we did, we've done this thing before. And then here's

1045
01:11:00,089 --> 01:11:03,749
some other things. I think like explaining the why we're, we're in this moment where,

1046
01:11:03,749 --> 01:11:10,129
uh, nobody knows why anything that nobody, we are on like an existential crisis, uh,

1047
01:11:10,129 --> 01:11:14,209
like an ontological crisis of like, what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman?

1048
01:11:14,349 --> 01:11:19,109
What is, what is marriage? Uh, what is government? What is money? Like all of these are very live

1049
01:11:19,109 --> 01:11:27,349
issues and, and just, it's not going to cut it anymore, uh, to just not explain the why of a lot

1050
01:11:27,349 --> 01:11:30,809
of these things. And so I think. I thought you have to be right. And I think I have a love hate

1051
01:11:30,809 --> 01:11:35,209
relationship with the internet. I admit it because like I've lived on it for so long. I mean, I've

1052
01:11:35,209 --> 01:11:38,949
worked on it. I've got so much, I mean, my whole job is on it now, but of course I hate it too,

1053
01:11:38,949 --> 01:11:43,549
because we know all the dangers of the internet, but I really believe one of the most beautiful

1054
01:11:43,549 --> 01:11:49,289
things about the internet is how much it's allowed us to educate and bring people to knowledge of

1055
01:11:49,289 --> 01:11:54,089
christ and knowledge of the church and things like that like one of the most popular videos i ever did

1056
01:11:54,089 --> 01:11:59,249
i was on somebody else's video guy named taylor marshall and we literally this we literally did a

1057
01:11:59,249 --> 01:12:05,869
step-by-step walk through the latin mass and it's got hundreds of thousands of views and people to

1058
01:12:05,869 --> 01:12:09,269
this day we did this six years ago i think people say still come up to me and say they saw that

1059
01:12:09,269 --> 01:12:13,109
because really what we did i think it was like a two-hour podcast and we literally just walked

1060
01:12:13,109 --> 01:12:18,329
through. Okay. You walk in a Latin mass. What do you do? Okay. The priest comes out, he does this.

1061
01:12:18,429 --> 01:12:23,489
What does that mean? And we just go step-by-step through it. And there was a real hunger because

1062
01:12:23,489 --> 01:12:28,929
people are like, okay. And so people can share that now. I know a woman, we have a religious

1063
01:12:28,929 --> 01:12:34,109
or of nuns that's connected to our parish. And there's a traditional nuns. And one of them

1064
01:12:34,109 --> 01:12:39,069
during COVID, she wasn't really, her family wasn't believers or anything. And she just went online

1065
01:12:39,069 --> 01:12:41,169
and she ended up becoming Catholic through it.

1066
01:12:41,329 --> 01:12:43,729
Bishop Barron, Robert Barron is a popular bishop

1067
01:12:43,729 --> 01:12:46,449
in our church and she watched some of that

1068
01:12:46,449 --> 01:12:48,529
and she became, now she's a religious nun.

1069
01:12:49,069 --> 01:12:52,529
And so it's like, I think there's a lot of ability now

1070
01:12:52,529 --> 01:12:54,229
that we really can explain the why.

1071
01:12:54,289 --> 01:12:55,549
There's really no excuse, in other words,

1072
01:12:55,789 --> 01:12:56,729
not to explain the why.

1073
01:12:57,129 --> 01:12:59,969
We know sometimes people will walk into our parish

1074
01:12:59,969 --> 01:13:02,689
and it's just like, it's like an alien experience

1075
01:13:02,689 --> 01:13:03,549
and we know that.

1076
01:13:03,809 --> 01:13:05,189
And so we try to be very much,

1077
01:13:05,289 --> 01:13:07,109
try to help them out and things like that.

1078
01:13:07,169 --> 01:13:09,049
But honestly, a lot of them, they come to us

1079
01:13:09,049 --> 01:13:13,689
because what happened was they watched a video or something online and they're like, hey, this

1080
01:13:13,689 --> 01:13:17,369
sounds interesting. They go and want to experience it. And so they're very open to it already.

1081
01:13:17,569 --> 01:13:21,689
They're already kind of primed to say, okay, I understand it's going to be very different.

1082
01:13:21,789 --> 01:13:25,809
And I want to take it back also to something we were talking about earlier about like people

1083
01:13:25,809 --> 01:13:32,969
leaving the church and things like that. I'm convinced that the church needs the zag whenever

1084
01:13:32,969 --> 01:13:37,549
everybody says zigging. Like when everybody, the culture is going this way and trying to be more

1085
01:13:37,549 --> 01:13:39,649
more like it is just dumb.

1086
01:13:39,929 --> 01:13:42,969
It's not faithful to Christ, which is the most important thing.

1087
01:13:43,329 --> 01:13:48,229
But really, I like the fact that, like, the traditional at Mass that I could, we're leaning

1088
01:13:48,229 --> 01:13:50,329
into the fact that we are different.

1089
01:13:50,569 --> 01:13:52,429
Yeah, when you come here, it's going to be a challenge.

1090
01:13:52,709 --> 01:13:53,369
We know that.

1091
01:13:53,509 --> 01:13:54,989
You're not going to understand what's going on.

1092
01:13:55,049 --> 01:13:58,529
In fact, we always tell people when you first start coming for the first few weeks, don't

1093
01:13:58,529 --> 01:13:59,629
even try to follow along.

1094
01:13:59,749 --> 01:14:01,769
You're just kind of soak it in, soak it in.

1095
01:14:02,029 --> 01:14:05,369
Then maybe you can pick up the missal and start saying, oh, what do these prayers actually

1096
01:14:05,369 --> 01:14:06,369
mean in English?

1097
01:14:06,369 --> 01:14:07,489
What are they saying?

1098
01:14:07,549 --> 01:14:28,989
And then you can learn more and more. And over time, you'll eventually, you know, hopefully learn to love it. But like we don't shy away from that barrier to entry, so to speak, because we think what it does is it reminds people that the surrounding culture is awful. It's anti-Christian. It's anti-human. And so like going against that grain.

1099
01:14:28,989 --> 01:14:30,749
And it's the same challenge we have with Bitcoin,

1100
01:14:30,849 --> 01:14:31,749
trying to explain people.

1101
01:14:32,109 --> 01:14:34,309
Like we had this high hurdle to explain Bitcoin to somebody

1102
01:14:34,309 --> 01:14:37,569
because they start off with just this idea of like money.

1103
01:14:37,629 --> 01:14:39,849
They think money is, they think their money is at the bank.

1104
01:14:39,929 --> 01:14:42,429
I mean, for example, they think there's literally dollar bills

1105
01:14:42,429 --> 01:14:45,469
sitting in a bank vault somewhere with their name attached to it.

1106
01:14:45,709 --> 01:14:48,029
And it's like all of a sudden you got this huge high barrier

1107
01:14:48,029 --> 01:14:49,469
of trying to get them to embrace Bitcoin.

1108
01:14:49,749 --> 01:14:51,669
I feel the same way when I'm trying to explain

1109
01:14:51,669 --> 01:14:52,669
the Latin mass to people.

1110
01:14:52,669 --> 01:14:54,329
It's like who know nothing about it.

1111
01:14:54,369 --> 01:14:57,569
It's like, okay, I know I got to start at the beginning

1112
01:14:57,569 --> 01:14:58,949
and kind of work my way up.

1113
01:14:58,989 --> 01:15:28,969
Thank you.

1114
01:15:00,745 --> 01:15:05,005
Definitely. Yeah. And that's, I mean, I, one of the things I talk to when I talk to people about

1115
01:15:05,005 --> 01:15:10,305
Bitcoin, uh, the verse that comes to mind is where Jesus says, those who are well, have no need of a

1116
01:15:10,305 --> 01:15:14,205
physician. It's those who are sick. And so there's so many people who like in the United States,

1117
01:15:14,205 --> 01:15:20,085
they don't feel the visceral need to look for something alternative to their national currency,

1118
01:15:20,245 --> 01:15:23,665
local currency, whatever it is. But there's still, there's millions and hundreds of millions of

1119
01:15:23,665 --> 01:15:27,485
people around the world who definitely are in that situation. And so some of it is just helping

1120
01:15:27,485 --> 01:15:33,685
people to look at and recognize, you know, the shortfalls and the weaknesses of fiat currency

1121
01:15:33,685 --> 01:15:37,845
relative to the history of, you know, basically historically, and then just even in relation to

1122
01:15:37,845 --> 01:15:40,525
the last 50 years, the kind of the, a lot of the differences that have taken place.

1123
01:15:41,665 --> 01:15:46,305
I mean, I have one more question and now it's escaping me. I'm trying to think.

1124
01:15:47,785 --> 01:15:51,785
It's going to come to me in just a minute. I guess I'll give you kind of a, we've been going

1125
01:15:51,785 --> 01:15:54,945
for like an hour and 15 minutes. I'll give you kind of the last word. Is there anything else?

1126
01:15:54,945 --> 01:15:56,685
where can people find more of your work?

1127
01:15:56,805 --> 01:15:57,805
Where can they get the book?

1128
01:15:57,865 --> 01:15:58,125
Is there,

1129
01:15:58,365 --> 01:15:59,205
obviously it's on Amazon,

1130
01:15:59,405 --> 01:16:00,205
but are there a play?

1131
01:16:00,285 --> 01:16:02,505
Is there a place where you'll get more of the money?

1132
01:16:02,585 --> 01:16:02,705
Well,

1133
01:16:02,705 --> 01:16:02,965
okay.

1134
01:16:03,025 --> 01:16:04,525
If you go to ericsamis.com,

1135
01:16:04,565 --> 01:16:05,005
my website,

1136
01:16:05,125 --> 01:16:06,165
you can buy it directly from there.

1137
01:16:06,185 --> 01:16:07,465
And I will not only get more of the money,

1138
01:16:07,465 --> 01:16:09,125
you can buy it in Bitcoin there.

1139
01:16:09,505 --> 01:16:12,245
So you can pay me in Bitcoin at the,

1140
01:16:12,305 --> 01:16:12,605
at there,

1141
01:16:12,665 --> 01:16:26,647
but you can also do fiat if you want to I understand that if I can So but yeah so you can buy it there and Amazon fine too but like i i do get more of the money but more and i will sign it if you buy it directly for me that the that the the and all if you pay in bitcoin you get 10 off on my website too

1142
01:16:26,647 --> 01:16:33,787
so like yeah yeah so i i try to run your bitcoiners because uh the funny thing is is like i've had the

1143
01:16:33,787 --> 01:16:38,247
ability to buy with bitcoin at my website for years and nobody ever used it because it was just

1144
01:16:38,247 --> 01:16:42,247
a catholic books and nobody got i sell i all of a sudden i sell this book and now i'm getting the

1145
01:16:42,247 --> 01:16:46,207
bitcoin orders everybody's taking advantage that 10 so i'm like there we go now we're talking i get

1146
01:16:46,207 --> 01:16:49,747
so excited too when i get a bitcoin or i admit it i get a little email when an order comes in

1147
01:16:49,747 --> 01:16:53,947
and i honestly the first thing i do now i look to see if they pay with credit card bitcoin and i

1148
01:16:53,947 --> 01:16:59,107
just get more excited when it's in bitcoins and i'm like oh yes so yeah so here here's a question

1149
01:16:59,107 --> 01:17:03,287
what what did you what's your payment it's all i knew you were gonna ask me it goes straight to my

1150
01:17:03,287 --> 01:17:10,147
hard wallet actually um what is that called oh i switched over about a year ago and they they have

1151
01:17:10,147 --> 01:17:14,807
it set up i think i'm gonna get i'm gonna reach the limit of free like right now it's free because

1152
01:17:14,807 --> 01:17:18,947
i don't have that many transactions but i'm starting to get more and more um but i can't

1153
01:17:18,947 --> 01:17:22,547
remember the name of it though because switch i used coinbase for a while and i would accept the

1154
01:17:22,547 --> 01:17:28,607
altcoin and stuff like that years ago but and i never got any words but yeah so um bitcoin economy

1155
01:17:28,607 --> 01:17:41,949
i can remember the name of it but anyway but yeah so if you go to ericsamons you also find my other links to my other books and other stuff and crisismagazine is is what I run And so I most of my writings are found there Like I said it a conservative

1156
01:17:41,949 --> 01:17:46,349
Catholic site. A lot of things that we would have shared with, uh, you know, non-Catholic Christians

1157
01:17:46,349 --> 01:17:51,109
as well, but you know, obviously some very Catholic stuff as well. Um, I, in fact, I just did a

1158
01:17:51,109 --> 01:17:56,269
podcast this week on, uh, not will non-Catholics, you know, be saved and because it's, you know,

1159
01:17:56,269 --> 01:17:56,629
Exactly.

1160
01:17:57,009 --> 01:18:02,929
So anyway, so like, you know, we have all that, you know, we address all the issues and the controversial stuff.

1161
01:18:02,989 --> 01:18:04,009
We don't shy away from it.

1162
01:18:04,189 --> 01:18:05,049
So that's good.

1163
01:18:05,469 --> 01:18:05,789
Love it.

1164
01:18:06,109 --> 01:18:06,309
Man.

1165
01:18:06,629 --> 01:18:07,729
Eric, thank you so much.

1166
01:18:07,829 --> 01:18:09,409
And again, hopefully this won't be the last time.

1167
01:18:09,409 --> 01:18:13,349
Again, these writers of books tend to keep writing books.

1168
01:18:13,489 --> 01:18:17,349
So maybe we'll have you back and can chat about future stuff in the major.

1169
01:18:17,769 --> 01:18:20,329
And I'll be sure to keep my list of Catholic questions.

1170
01:18:20,329 --> 01:18:20,829
Yes, yes.

1171
01:18:21,009 --> 01:18:22,329
And shoot them to me anytime.

1172
01:18:22,449 --> 01:18:22,709
Exactly.

1173
01:18:22,789 --> 01:18:23,629
I'm happy to join you.

1174
01:18:24,129 --> 01:18:24,909
That'd be great.

1175
01:18:24,909 --> 01:18:27,149
I was just thinking, I'm going to shoot you.

1176
01:18:27,509 --> 01:18:29,289
Have you reached out to Pierre Rochard?

1177
01:18:29,289 --> 01:18:30,249
He actually endorsed my book.

1178
01:18:31,169 --> 01:18:31,289
Yeah.

1179
01:18:31,629 --> 01:18:32,109
Oh, look.

1180
01:18:32,109 --> 01:18:32,529
Awesome.

1181
01:18:32,649 --> 01:18:33,189
Okay, yeah.

1182
01:18:33,189 --> 01:18:33,809
Pierre's a friend.

1183
01:18:33,909 --> 01:18:34,309
Yeah, oh, yeah.

1184
01:18:34,389 --> 01:18:36,189
I'm trying to figure out who other Bitcoin...

1185
01:18:36,189 --> 01:18:37,769
Yes, we have definitely been in contact.

1186
01:18:37,929 --> 01:18:38,369
He endorsed the book.

1187
01:18:38,489 --> 01:18:40,609
Bitstein, you know, Michael Goldstein, he endorsed the book.

1188
01:18:40,729 --> 01:18:42,889
I don't know if you know, but he recently became Catholic, actually.

1189
01:18:43,449 --> 01:18:43,649
Yeah.

1190
01:18:43,689 --> 01:18:44,069
I did.

1191
01:18:44,269 --> 01:18:46,669
Yeah, so great guys.

1192
01:18:46,809 --> 01:18:47,549
Just great guys.

1193
01:18:48,949 --> 01:19:01,270
Giacomo Zucco is another one Okay I don think I knew that Yep yep So he from Italy So he but yeah So yeah I love to connect you and do it all the way I can to help you get on some other podcasts

1194
01:19:01,550 --> 01:19:02,270
But all right, Eric.

1195
01:19:02,450 --> 01:19:03,830
And then for the rest of the audience,

1196
01:19:04,030 --> 01:19:07,730
go get Eric's book, Pay in Bitcoin, ericsammons.com.

1197
01:19:08,390 --> 01:19:10,450
And on top of that, just as a final reminder,

1198
01:19:10,570 --> 01:19:13,650
we have 12 days left on the Kickstarter

1199
01:19:13,650 --> 01:19:16,630
and Geyser campaign for our kids book,

1200
01:19:16,710 --> 01:19:18,770
our Bitcoin kids book called The Orange Umbrella.

1201
01:19:18,770 --> 01:19:24,390
it basically gives like a high level overview of an introduction to Bitcoin. We don't use the

1202
01:19:24,390 --> 01:19:31,430
B word a single time in the book. You can find more information at tou.tgfb.com. That'll just

1203
01:19:31,430 --> 01:19:36,110
redirect you to the Kickstarter. You can also look on geyser.fund if you want to fund it in Bitcoin.

1204
01:19:36,650 --> 01:19:41,790
We'd really appreciate it. We are like just, I think, 82% funded. We're super close and we'd

1205
01:19:41,790 --> 01:19:46,830
love your help in getting over the line to get this thing printed. So again, thank you for

1206
01:19:46,830 --> 01:19:50,890
listening to this episode of Thank God for Bitcoin Podcast, and we'll be back next week.

1207
01:19:51,210 --> 01:19:54,570
Actually, we'll be back tomorrow with another episode of To the Unknown Pod

1208
01:19:54,570 --> 01:19:59,350
with our Presby friends, and we'll be talking about a bunch of different things.

1209
01:19:59,590 --> 01:20:01,890
So grateful for you all, and we'll talk to you again soon.