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And we are live. Welcome to episode 37 of To The Unknown Pod, a TGFB podcast. My name

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is Jordan Bush. I'm the director of TGFB Media, which exists to help Christians understand

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and use Bitcoin for the glory of God and the good of people everywhere. I am joined by

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all of the Island Boys today. Wow. It has been a long time since we recorded a podcast.

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I think it's probably been like a month and a half since we've had the full cast and crew.

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It might even have been two full months.

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I'll let these guys introduce themselves.

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Go for it.

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Hey, I'm Oshawa Hawthorne, founder and director of Brilliance Labs.

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Stoked to be here.

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I'm Ryan Finley, father of six, entrepreneur,

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working with my boys on their various ventures.

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Yeah, it's good to be here, Jordan.

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yeah matt purvis pastor and business guy on in the lava zone in hawaii pahoa hawaii

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nice and we are we are here today to do something that we don't do very often which is uh that is

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to say agree with dave ramsey all right we try not to make it a habit uh given our our manifold

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differences on a whole bunch of things including bitcoin but uh with that being said we want to

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agree where we can. So we'll get to that in a moment. Before we get there, I do want to just

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remind folks that we have so many exciting things happening with TGFB. We have, again, all three of

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these books that you see behind me. We have the flagship book, Thank God for Bitcoin. We have the

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old version right here. Don't get that. Go run over to tgfb.com or store.tgfb.com and pre-order

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the second edition with a forward by Robert Borden's brand new cover. It just looks a lot

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more professional, go do that, go find that, go pre-order it. We should have copies ready to roll

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on Amazon or from the TGFB warehouses here very soon. We also have the Gospel According to Bitcoin.

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If you have Bitcoiners in your life who are not Christians and you want to put a resource in their

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hands that can help them think about why they ought to reconsider following Jesus, that's a

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great resource there. And then most recently we have the, uh, the orange umbrella or a kid's book

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that was a long time coming. We have the hardcore or hardcore hardcover versions here in stock.

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These are super premium. These are sewn bindings. They've got dust jackets, everything. We also have

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a coloring book so that you can decide if you don't like the colors that we have in the,

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in the regular book, you can go through and it's got all the words, all the things,

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just like the normal book. Um, we also have paperback versions that will be,

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should be here this week. So we've got a whole bunch of really cool stuff.

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You can pre-order all those things on the site. We also have the TGFP26 event conference that

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we're going to be doing in Fort Worth in April 9th. Let me share this real quick. You can go over to

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tgfp.com slash conference and order your conference tickets. There we are right there.

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If you click on the buy tickets link at the conference page, it'll take you to this

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ZapRite link where you can pay with either fiat or Bitcoin. We will happily accept either one of

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those. You can get the, so the merch bundle that is included with these tickets is a hat,

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super high quality hat, and then a high quality t-shirt as well. So go ahead and do that.

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We'd love to see you there. We're going to have another, a bunch more things to announce

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as we get closer there. So those are ways in which, you know, we can see you and you can get

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to know more about TGFB. You can also bring people with you to know more about TGFB. If you have

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pastors in your life and you want to get discounted tickets, reach out to us and we will be happy to

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make that happen for you. Let me see here. I believe that's all of the super fun stuff we

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have before we get to what we're doing today. So we will stop sharing there. And today's topic,

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Like we mentioned, it's rare that we agree with Dave Ramsey, but we do agree with him when it comes to this critique that I found shared courtesy of one of the best Twitter follows, in my opinion, that you can do.

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It's a guy named Harala Baz-Volgaris.

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Really fascinating story.

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Let me share this.

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Bob, as he goes by, was a professional gambler.

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Grew up watching his dad gamble.

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And obviously that's not great.

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but grew up watching his dad gamble.

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And so he learned from his dad, who was a bad gambler.

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He learned from him and ended up becoming one of the, long story short,

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one of the most successful gamblers in the history of sports.

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He amassed a fortune of over $100 million based on almost exclusively sports gambling and poker.

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And so it may come as a surprise then that as somebody who did that,

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that he has come out and basically now he owns a soccer team

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and is doing a whole bunch of other things,

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but he does not allow with the soccer team any ads from these gambling sites

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due to reasons why we can get into.

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So he shared this link today from Dave Ramsey.

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So let's listen to old Dave and see what he has.

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The fastest growing addiction that is destroying young men in their 20s

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is online sports gambling.

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FanDuel is a portal to hell.

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Draft kings ain't king of nothing except their own pocketbook.

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And they're screwing an entire generation of young men because you don't win.

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That's why they can afford to buy ads.

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They're back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back ads every time you turn on a sporting event.

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They're spending billions of dollars.

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You know where they're getting that?

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It's out of your kid's freaking pocket because they're screwing an entire generation.

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This is evil stuff right here.

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The fat.

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All right.

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So we'll stop there for now.

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I do want to

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so again I want to point out what are we

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talking about when we're talking about gambling

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so sports gambling

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this is just obviously pretty straightforward

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gambling about the outcomes

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of sporting games

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is this team going to win or is this team going to win

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but it's far more advanced than that

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it's also will this player

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will this player

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score a touchdown will this player have

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this many yards or this many catches

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will he catch them in the first half or the second

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have. You can bet on the color of shoes that guys wear. You can bet on just about everything

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that is going on within a sporting event. And so the, yeah, just the amount of things that can be

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gambled upon and the amount of money that is, you know, won and more likely as Ramsey pointed out,

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lost is staggering. And so as we talk about things that, one of the things we've talked about in this

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podcast is the tough situation that millennials and Gen Z and some of these other guys find

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themselves in. It's even harder because not only do they have cheap assets available, they have

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the siren song of things like sports gambling calling their name. So sports gambling is one

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area of gambling that's tempting folks. Now, again, as we've talked about here on this podcast,

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We could also talk about altcoin purchasing and futures markets and all these kind of things that go with that.

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That's another way in which it is gambling.

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Stock market.

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This is not unique to crypto.

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This is true of the regular stock market as well.

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There's a ton of gambling that goes on there.

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Promises and ways to make money quickly.

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Here's another one.

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Poly market, the surge in popularity of prediction markets.

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Let me share this here.

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I retweeted this earlier today.

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Positively Clintonian.

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Gamblers.

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So there was a market that was made around the operation by the United States going into Venezuela to arrest Maduro, the president of Venezuela.

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So gamblers, there were people who there was a predictive market about whether or not the United States would do that or go in there and carry out an operation.

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And so there were gamblers who, when they saw the operation take place, were thrilled because they had bet that it would.

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And then they found this, that gamblers who were trying to collect their payout from Polymarket were left baffled as they learned that the U.S. operation carried out in Venezuela does not meet Polymarket's definition of an invasion.

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Oops.

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and so what you find out is again you know your definition of invasion might not be somebody else's

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definition of an of an invasion so that's another example of you know where you can there can be

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lots of money lost um again we could just go through a few different ones here another couple

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ones uh again we talked about sports betting some of the the the other examples uh show this step

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instead here we go so draft kings which is one of the the sports gambling things that uh sports

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gambling companies. In this case, it's kind of like the perfect Robin Hood happening. They had

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an error on their site and a couple bettors found out the error. They exploited it and made almost

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a million dollars. And then they tried to, DraftKings tried to deny the payout and they ended

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up taking this guy to court to try to get it. And the judge ended up siding with the guy who won.

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But there have been other examples of this where guys win and they are denied payouts and they have

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to go to court to sell all these things. So basically you will lose. And even when you win,

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they will try to make you lose. So they're kind of like the insurance companies.

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Correct. And so we could talk about that as well. That's the more legitimized forms of scams

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would be a lot of what's going on in the insurance industry. Another one that I've become familiar

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with in the last few years is sports cards. In addition to just buying cards and then trying to

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see where they go, there are something called sports card breaks. And so what these will do,

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just to give you an idea, you'll have a break. And so you'll have, you know, let's say it's a

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basketball break. There will be, they will divide up the teams and they will say, okay,

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you know, how many, how many teams are there? Well, there's 30, there's 30 teams. And so if you,

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you can bid on the right to get the cards that come from a certain team in, you know,

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they come out of this box. And so it's totally, totally random. You have no idea what you're

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going to get or not. And so there are people who spend, I am not exaggerating, tens of thousands

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of dollars who've lost tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars doing

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these breaks. And so, so again, that, that's another example where this is this article that

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I'm, that we're sharing right now is about there's allegations that Fanatics, which is one of these

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big sports companies that has really gotten involved with these box breaking. So there's

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allegations that they've been rigging these breaks by sending influencers who have channels that do

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these breaks, sending them boxes that are juiced with the best cards. And so then that creates the

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allure, creates the allure that these, they call them hits, that these good cards are more plentiful

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than they are. And so it basically lures people in. They say, oh, look, look how much success he's

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having, I want to have success too. And so they end up doing this and then they don't get anything.

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And so some of the, basically they say like the average profit margin, uh, from some of these,

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these breaks is about, you know, you'll basically get cards that are worth, uh, 20% of what you're,

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of what you're getting. Um, and so again, I've, I've done some of these a little bit,

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you know, in limited capacity, but again, I've seen and heard stories that these are, I mean,

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just the, the craziness that goes on, uh, in some of these things, because these guys are looking

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to make money quickly. They're looking to just, you know, try to get wealthy or they're following

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the examples that they're seeing in the culture. And so, so again, all of these, I guess here,

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we'll do one more. I know we've been talking a lot, but here's, here's one more. This is more

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along the lines with the sports gambling. So one of the consequences of it, listen,

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all these leagues, we're going to embrace sports gambling. And then recently within the last couple

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months, we've had this giant NBA gambling scandal where players were fixing games. Players were

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purposely either missing shots at the end of a game in order to help people that they were

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affiliated with make money, or there were guys, friends of players who were told by their player

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friends that they weren't going to play that night. And so they put bets on the fact that this player

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would score under a certain number of points. So this is a giant scandal, hundreds of millions of

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dollars at stake. All of these things are gambling. And so all of these things are, you know, not only

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do they not honor the Lord, they also are very, very dangerous, are destroying people, as Dave

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Ramsey talked about. So again, talked a lot, but I really do feel like this is something that we

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could talk about. And so, I mean, maybe we'll start with the current pastor among us.

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Matt, how do you think about these things? Have you experienced any of these things with any of

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people in your life and how do you think about them? Thanks. Yeah. I said right before we got on,

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I've not ever once thought to myself, I want to bet on this sports thing, but that's not because

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I'm so righteous really. It's just, I literally don't watch sports. I love martial arts. I don't

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watch martial arts sports either. I have, but it's just not, hasn't been my thing. And in my

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in my situation in my church, I don't see this as being a problem. It obviously is a major cultural

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problem and that makes it interesting. And maybe, I don't know, maybe I even have an outsider view

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because I'm so not tempted by this, you know, but, um, I also see it as just straight up foolish.

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There's a hundred things I could do that might make my, bring my family or myself more and, uh,

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developing a skill or starting a business or taking a nap so I can do better at the things

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I'm already supposed to be doing, you know? Um, and I do have a question that's real practical. So

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I, these are huge companies, but I don't think every state gambling is legal. And this is

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something that you guys are maybe one of you would know better than me, but so is it okay

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for people legally wise to bet on these sites all over the United States because the sites are

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located in a certain state or? No. So there are, there are certain states where you can,

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where there's certain states where, where gambling is illegal. And so you cannot, so let's say,

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let's say use an example. So you live in Hawaii, let's say it's illegal there. What you, so you

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can't place a bet in, let's say, uh, Massachusetts or something where, where it's, where it's legal.

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But what you can do is you can give money to a friend who lives in another state and then you

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can do this. They can place a bet for you. And so, again, technically, it's not you doing it.

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Now, again, that does create a kind of sticky thing. So let's say gambling was legal in Portland

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and Oregon. And so Matt gave Oshawa a thousand bucks. Oshawa places bets for Matt. Oshawa,

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let's say wins 10X, so 10,000 bucks. Well, if the bets were placed in Oshawa's name,

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now Oshawa has to pay the capital gains that were that were you know gained from those winnings

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so it again you you can technically get around it but it does in the event that you do win it

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creates you know even I would imagine that you I would imagine people use VPNs or other stuff

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like that too to to just do it and see if somebody finds out I mean sure you know I think I think

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we're talking I think we're talking about hopeless relatively like on we relatively hopeless people

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in a situation where it's like, who cares? You can't take anything from me anyways. And I'm

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trying to imagine myself as like 23 years old, you know, sitting here, like, what are you going

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to do And it not even worth it your time to come after me You know I don I don think you would be doing this kind of thing unless you have a level of despair maybe about your situation Or I guess it is an addiction

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So there's that.

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Like maybe this is outsized gains.

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And I guess before turning it over, I would just say, because I'm talking generally, because I don't have specific on this.

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But generally speaking, the addiction part of it is like, for Christians, the last fruit of the spirit listed is self-control.

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And so it's this idea that we shouldn't be mastered by anything, though if you use alcohol, don't be mastered by that.

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If you enjoy, you know, extreme sports or anything can be an addiction.

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I guess. Yeah, I don't know what I keep coming back to the feeling of like what despair it must be to say I'm going to try to make a big win.

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And another thing I think based on everything you said, you're you're a young person.

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I feel like I've got a feeling about this or even worse.

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I feel like I have an insider knowledge because I've done so much research.

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The problem is you aren't the insider.

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because, as you mentioned, the real insiders are the people with huge,

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people getting juiced boxes, you know, of cards.

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The real insiders are the players.

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The real insiders maybe are the person placed the bet on Venezuela.

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You know what I mean?

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And so you might have the feeling of inside because you've done a ton of research,

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but you're not actually inside unless you're getting given special information.

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And that's another part.

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And it connects to so many problems in our country.

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When the incentives are so high and the consequences are so low for bad behavior, it's going to happen.

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It's going to happen all the time.

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I think I could sum it up in two things.

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We broke the money and we broke the family.

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So when you break the money, it pushes everyone out on the risk curve.

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And so you got young people growing up right now.

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they're entering the world in the most like depressing state like it's the most unaffordable

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time to buy a house in history everything's just extremely expensive inflation super high

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it's really really hard for young people to get assets outside of bitcoin um and kind of

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get into the game for whatever you know for lack of a better word um and so that like that's always

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push people out on the risk curve. It's like, I mean, you can look up, you can look it up.

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Young people are just, a lot of this gambling is being fueled by the fact that like at a certain

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point when they can't see themselves ever being able to afford something like a house,

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they're just like, screw it. Well, then fine. I'll gamble it and maybe I will, you know,

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maybe I'll overcome the odds. Exactly. And then, and you couple that with the broken family,

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perfect disaster.

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Like I think about my own boys,

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my own boys don't gamble.

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And it's like, why don't they gamble?

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It's not because their sinful flesh

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doesn't have a propensity to gamble.

242
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I think all men deep down

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left to ourselves are gamblers, you know?

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And that's something that should,

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by God's grace, get worked out of us.

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But a lot of times that comes from a dad

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who's like, hey, yo,

248
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let's talk about that. Like, what is this? Like, is that the best use of your money? Of course it's

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not. Yeah. Let's, let's go do these, any of the, like Matt said, let's go, let's go start a

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business. You have money burning a hole in your pocket. Let's go, uh, put it to work. Let's go

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invest in something. Uh, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I, I, here's, here's what I, here's

252
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what I want to do. Cause I'm sure there's people who are listening to this, who are thinking,

253
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hey listen what is the difference between doing some of these things like whether it's you know

254
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what's the difference between gambling and investing like what is the difference right

255
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because like I mean you can invest in a certain stock and have you know good reason for doing so

256
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and then you can be totally wrong and you the stock can go sideways and you know it can it can

257
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be bad so like what do I would love to talk through because I do think there is a difference

258
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but like what what are some of the differences how would you respond to someone who who tried to

259
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relativize those two things. Yeah. So I think on the surf, go ahead, Ash.

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I think, I mean, there's different perspectives on investing in general and you, you, you have this

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like value investing idea that you, like the Warren Buffett that he buys dollar bills for 80

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cents, you know, some valuation and you, you try to, uh, play on the inefficiencies in the market.

263
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So you may have information, you may have a thesis about the future of a particular company and or an asset or a commodity or whatever.

264
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And so you're going to allocate resources to that based on your vision of the future.

265
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Right. So businesses are are valued based on future cash flow.

266
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Well, no one knows the future, but we're all seeking to try to guess at it.

267
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And so I think it's a deep question to ask,

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what is the difference between investing and gambling or speculating?

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So that was like Bonson's recent video on why his investment firm,

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which focuses on high dividend paying stocks and stock picking solid companies.

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And he was arguing for why they will not invest in Bitcoin

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and why he views it as a speculative asset for traders.

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and we've had this discussion and debates

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on some of the Christian Bitcoiner channels

275
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about guys that are into altcoins

276
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and that are traders

277
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and they spend a certain amount of time researching

278
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hey, I think this next trade is going to do well

279
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and I'm going to work on timing it

280
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and being in and out

281
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and I think we need to not be dogmatic

282
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about saying hey, this is the line

283
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if you do this, now you're gambling

284
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I think the line exists

285
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And I think there's motive and heart issues

286
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And even we'd want to lay even like a theological groundwork

287
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Of sowing and reaping and work, right?

288
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So God established work

289
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In the book of Genesis, it's good

290
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But then it's cursed

291
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So there's thorns in our work

292
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We work to be fruitful and multiply

293
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To subdue the earth, to fill it

294
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To provide for our families

295
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To provide for our own needs

296
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Ephesians says, let the thief stop stealing

297
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but work so he has something to give. So we work so we can be generous. And that's foundational.

298
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And the question is, are we trying to bypass sowing and reaping? Are we trying to

299
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live life without the curse? So the curse is a part of the reality. Book of Ecclesiastes,

300
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this is our experience. Is there some get rich quick way where it's like, as a promise,

301
00:23:19,741 --> 00:23:25,081
there's no curse. Here's a job like those YouTube ads, right? Where it's just easy,

302
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passive income. It's promising fruit without having to tend your fig tree.

303
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And I think for Christians, the tending is where we're sanctified. We don't want fruit without

304
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tending. We don't want reaping without sowing. And so I think you understand that. I will say,

305
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Unless God wants to do that.

306
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Because there is such thing as fortune.

307
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So the guy who finds the pearl in the field, right?

308
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But he's not looking.

309
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Exactly what I was thinking.

310
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Yeah.

311
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He's not out there running around trying to find free pearls.

312
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He just happens across it because the Lord gives it to him.

313
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But he doesn't tell anyone.

314
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Correct.

315
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Yes.

316
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But the other clarification.

317
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He doesn't believe he deserves that.

318
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So that's also that.

319
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Yes.

320
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Yes.

321
00:24:10,081 --> 00:24:12,861
He's not trying to systematize this luck that he's getting.

322
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Okay.

323
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The other thing.

324
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the one thing I would want to clarify, because again, there's a sense in which I'm sure for some

325
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people, you know, we could think that the difference between investing and gambling

326
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is basically like pornography. You know, how do you know what pornography, what is or isn't

327
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pornography? And, you know, there's the common saying of, you know it when you see it, right?

328
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You know the difference. But I think you can define the difference between gambling and

329
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investment. And at least you can draw these kinds of distinctions, right? So in the case of those

330
00:24:43,861 --> 00:24:51,261
sports card breaks, you're paying for the possibility of winning something. So when you

331
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pay, you know, if you pay and then you don't win, you don't end up with anything. You totally lose.

332
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You don't even have, you don't end up with anything. There's no actual exchange at the

333
00:25:00,321 --> 00:25:05,521
end of the day. There's just nothing. Whereas if you buy a stock, okay, that stock might,

334
00:25:05,581 --> 00:25:10,881
might, you know, not perform the way that you want to. And it's possible that the stock could

335
00:25:10,881 --> 00:25:15,721
go to zero or something, the company could get, you know, could go down a lot and the company get

336
00:25:15,721 --> 00:25:21,121
bought out, but you still maintain those shares that you have. So there still is, it still is a

337
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transaction that took place in which you have something that's scarce, something that, you know,

338
00:25:26,301 --> 00:25:31,141
is, is real and, you know, invaluable. Um, that's, that's contrasted with something like the,

339
00:25:31,141 --> 00:25:34,861
the sports card score, excuse me, the sports card breaks or some of those kinds of things,

340
00:25:34,861 --> 00:25:40,221
or like a lottery ticket, uh, you know, a lottery ticket, if you don't win, you've exchanged,

341
00:25:40,221 --> 00:25:47,841
your money for a piece of paper that is serves no has no value beyond uh you know beyond the the

342
00:25:47,841 --> 00:25:53,521
event that the that the lottery takes place and so um so but yeah and i can i say something on that

343
00:25:53,521 --> 00:25:58,981
yeah go for it so i think that i want to try to take it even to a more foundational level

344
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and to the person sitting in front of the screen if you were to take a picture of a person

345
00:26:06,401 --> 00:26:15,661
betting on sports or a person investing, it looks the same. To me, the big difference is this.

346
00:26:16,401 --> 00:26:21,021
Even when we understand this at a micro level, so let's say at a micro level, us four say,

347
00:26:21,021 --> 00:26:27,041
hey, we can really get along on this podcast. Let's buy an apartment complex and we're going

348
00:26:27,041 --> 00:26:33,001
to start an LLC and we're going to buy this 60 unit, I guess maybe be a six unit, but anyway,

349
00:26:33,001 --> 00:26:37,461
whatever, we're going to buy it. We're going to buy a apartment complex and split the whatever

350
00:26:37,461 --> 00:26:42,401
winnings. Uh, we're going to split the earning. Right. And we understand that we're investing in

351
00:26:42,401 --> 00:26:46,381
something. And let's say for the sake of argument, we don't go out there with hammers. We're just the

352
00:26:46,381 --> 00:26:53,601
investors. Right. Um, and it succeeds and we get our money or it fails. And we say, well, we tried,

353
00:26:53,921 --> 00:26:58,201
you know what I mean? We, uh, everyone out there understands that was not the same as betting

354
00:26:58,201 --> 00:26:59,941
because it's only four people.

355
00:27:01,141 --> 00:27:04,001
Now, when I go, I don't have any stocks actually,

356
00:27:04,061 --> 00:27:04,961
but maybe I will someday.

357
00:27:05,081 --> 00:27:06,481
But let's say I invest in Tesla,

358
00:27:06,741 --> 00:27:11,281
huge, massive company like breaking science

359
00:27:11,281 --> 00:27:14,641
and testing the limits of AI and everything else.

360
00:27:15,261 --> 00:27:18,361
Now, I have the feeling when I put the money down,

361
00:27:18,361 --> 00:27:21,221
I'm hoping that brings a return to my family.

362
00:27:22,001 --> 00:27:24,481
But what is actually really going on under the surface,

363
00:27:25,221 --> 00:27:26,841
I'm participating in Tesla.

364
00:27:27,101 --> 00:27:28,001
That's the whole idea.

365
00:27:28,201 --> 00:27:31,141
I'm becoming a partner in Tesla.

366
00:27:31,361 --> 00:27:33,181
And you're breathing life into Tesla.

367
00:27:33,341 --> 00:27:36,561
Yeah, not only because I think it's going to bring me more money,

368
00:27:36,781 --> 00:27:40,881
but I'm bringing them more money to invest in AI and all the other things.

369
00:27:41,361 --> 00:27:43,441
And hopefully as a Christian and everybody,

370
00:27:43,641 --> 00:27:48,601
hopefully I also believe in the mission at least at some level, right?

371
00:27:49,461 --> 00:27:56,281
And I wouldn't say, oh, I think a porn site is going to bring me a return.

372
00:27:56,381 --> 00:27:57,161
So I'll just do it.

373
00:27:57,161 --> 00:27:58,261
It'll be good for my family.

374
00:27:58,261 --> 00:28:00,781
And don't worry, I'll use the money to further the kingdom of God.

375
00:28:00,821 --> 00:28:04,541
I wouldn't do that because my investment is furthering their mission, which is to destroy

376
00:28:04,541 --> 00:28:05,541
people, you know?

377
00:28:06,041 --> 00:28:13,301
So my attempt in this little spiel is to say at a very foundational level, even if you lose

378
00:28:13,301 --> 00:28:15,721
or win, it isn't actually losing or winning.

379
00:28:15,881 --> 00:28:22,301
It's investing into something which you hope that will succeed, but it's actually doing

380
00:28:22,301 --> 00:28:26,121
a service or a product unless you are, you know.

381
00:28:26,121 --> 00:28:30,501
And then, and Ash mentioned, there's a lot of, there's a line, right? And I think Polymarket

382
00:28:30,501 --> 00:28:35,681
is one of the most interesting places to explore the line, but there's a line, but it's, it's not

383
00:28:35,681 --> 00:28:41,961
that easy to nail because you got, you got the stock market. Let's just say philosophically,

384
00:28:41,961 --> 00:28:47,081
it's a hundred percent legitimate, but there's also, unfortunately, a lot of insider trading

385
00:28:47,081 --> 00:28:52,001
and government control and not necessarily control, but schemes and stuff like that.

386
00:28:52,001 --> 00:28:58,101
And as we saw devil in the details of the definitions, like there's those games being played too.

387
00:28:58,641 --> 00:29:02,281
Well, but that's even more interesting because that's not even in the stock market.

388
00:29:02,381 --> 00:29:03,381
That's like on the site.

389
00:29:03,501 --> 00:29:07,521
So you have to decide who says whether you won or not.

390
00:29:07,581 --> 00:29:08,121
Who's the ref?

391
00:29:08,581 --> 00:29:13,961
Now, we just discovered in the Venezuela thing, the ref doesn't always agree with what somebody might think.

392
00:29:14,021 --> 00:29:15,401
So I don't want to keep going on.

393
00:29:15,401 --> 00:29:20,921
I just want to say at a real foundational level, it is actually participation in a partnership,

394
00:29:20,921 --> 00:29:22,781
even though it might be millions and millions of people,

395
00:29:22,921 --> 00:29:24,041
it doesn't feel like a partnership,

396
00:29:24,241 --> 00:29:26,021
but that's the philosophy behind it.

397
00:29:26,541 --> 00:29:28,881
Yeah, I'll share this too, what we're doing here.

398
00:29:28,961 --> 00:29:30,841
This is kind of getting at what you're talking about, right?

399
00:29:30,941 --> 00:29:33,741
So the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 5.11 says,

400
00:29:33,921 --> 00:29:35,501
have nothing to do with the fruitless

401
00:29:35,501 --> 00:29:37,781
or the unfruitful works of darkness,

402
00:29:38,061 --> 00:29:39,681
but rather expose them.

403
00:29:40,401 --> 00:29:43,741
And so this is the difference between a lot of,

404
00:29:43,901 --> 00:29:47,001
between investing in a company,

405
00:29:47,461 --> 00:29:48,781
we gotta say as long as it's a company

406
00:29:48,781 --> 00:29:50,221
that's doing good things.

407
00:29:50,221 --> 00:29:55,281
So like Tesla's creating cars that are conceivably good and for humanity and all this kind of stuff.

408
00:29:55,381 --> 00:29:57,481
So then this is a fruitful work.

409
00:29:57,601 --> 00:29:58,081
Okay.

410
00:29:58,081 --> 00:30:07,921
You're, you're wanting, like you're investing in a company that's creating actual beneficial, you know, things of value, things that are helping humanity, things that are loving to, to your, towards your neighbors.

411
00:30:08,381 --> 00:30:17,741
Um, and, and so that's money investing to, to lend them life versus something like, you know, these, these sports gambling companies.

412
00:30:17,741 --> 00:30:21,461
Again, you can think about it like this. Do I want to lend life to these companies?

413
00:30:22,661 --> 00:30:25,681
And in many cases, you know, the answer should be no.

414
00:30:25,901 --> 00:30:26,361
Like, I don't, I don't.

415
00:30:26,401 --> 00:30:30,641
Well, and I know there's a question in the chat. I just want to say one quick thing.

416
00:30:30,701 --> 00:30:33,941
I just preached this Sunday on Luke 17, which says,

417
00:30:34,541 --> 00:30:39,781
Temptations to sin are sure to come. Woe to the one through whom they come.

418
00:30:40,241 --> 00:30:40,361
Yep.

419
00:30:40,601 --> 00:30:44,681
It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea,

420
00:30:44,681 --> 00:30:47,781
than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble.

421
00:30:48,701 --> 00:30:51,881
And we can come back to that because that covers this whole thing.

422
00:30:52,041 --> 00:30:57,661
But when it comes to the state lotteries, people call that a stupid tax.

423
00:30:57,821 --> 00:30:58,321
And it is.

424
00:30:59,201 --> 00:31:00,401
It's a stupid tax.

425
00:31:00,461 --> 00:31:01,381
It's a poverty tax.

426
00:31:02,381 --> 00:31:05,321
And when Jesus, one of the ones I had to study, I said,

427
00:31:05,381 --> 00:31:06,561
what does he mean by little ones?

428
00:31:07,481 --> 00:31:10,761
And I think looking back on Jesus' whole thing,

429
00:31:10,761 --> 00:31:14,561
all his teachings in that setting, he's saying that the poor,

430
00:31:14,681 --> 00:31:21,541
the crippled, the lame, the young, all the vulnerable people of the culture are the little

431
00:31:21,541 --> 00:31:27,261
ones. It's not just children who are physically smaller. And so when you target the little ones,

432
00:31:27,341 --> 00:31:32,561
Jesus says you're better off dead. Yeah, this is, I mean, the scripture,

433
00:31:33,301 --> 00:31:42,361
again, one example of this, another, I can't find how many there are, but I did a study

434
00:31:42,361 --> 00:31:48,501
recently, a couple months ago, about the passages that talk about lying in wait.

435
00:31:49,541 --> 00:31:54,761
So basically, you know, like somebody, like a thief who lies in wait. So you're setting a trap,

436
00:31:55,221 --> 00:32:00,521
you're waiting for an innocent person to come into a situation so that you can take advantage

437
00:32:00,521 --> 00:32:06,001
of them, right? And so you have the information asymmetry, you have the, you know, power asymmetry,

438
00:32:06,101 --> 00:32:10,921
whatever it is. And so that's, there's a very real sense in which that is what's going on

439
00:32:10,921 --> 00:32:12,321
in these situations.

440
00:32:12,321 --> 00:32:25,461
There asymmetries of information asymmetries of power Again a lot of the algorithms are leveraged against you There even something like we can talk about this isn one with stock trading

441
00:32:25,941 --> 00:32:30,461
but something like Robinhood blurs this line as well because Robinhood makes money by selling

442
00:32:30,461 --> 00:32:35,762
their customers' information to these larger companies that can execute trades faster than

443
00:32:35,762 --> 00:32:41,421
their customers can. And so they're counter-trading a lot of their customers and shutting down in the

444
00:32:41,421 --> 00:32:47,162
case of uh what's the uh what's the there was a look on that game yeah game game stock or game

445
00:32:47,162 --> 00:32:54,902
boys no flash boys flash flash but that's right what's but is it is it game stop uh that was one

446
00:32:54,902 --> 00:32:58,961
of the ways like so they they just shut down trading you know again they thought okay great

447
00:32:58,961 --> 00:33:03,022
you know we're gonna do this thing but they didn't realize that they could get their trading trade

448
00:33:03,022 --> 00:33:07,982
shut down the shamelessness which which is which is really which is really a sorry situation because

449
00:33:07,982 --> 00:33:14,262
based on my reading of that situation, the GameStop thing was the country saying, you guys suck.

450
00:33:15,162 --> 00:33:21,681
So, so it was in, in a certain sense, it was in, it was a financial, um, what's the word I'm looking

451
00:33:21,681 --> 00:33:25,961
for? It was a financial, uh, what's it, when you get in the street, you protest. They were

452
00:33:25,961 --> 00:33:30,362
financially protesting and saying, we hate you. We hate everything you stand for. We're going to go

453
00:33:30,362 --> 00:33:35,422
and buy GameStop. And you have, I think in their shoes, the righteous thing to do is to take the

454
00:33:35,422 --> 00:33:40,522
licking, you know, because it's like the people said, we don't like you. And then you just said,

455
00:33:40,582 --> 00:33:44,422
we're shutting it down. Well, we didn't even, no one even thought there was central control going

456
00:33:44,422 --> 00:33:51,642
to do something like that. Yep. So we, we do have a, uh, one dull geek. Uh, I'm not accusing him of

457
00:33:51,642 --> 00:33:56,902
being that that's how he's identifying himself. Uh, he has in the chat on YouTube. Uh, he says,

458
00:33:56,982 --> 00:34:01,102
so again, he's trying to flesh out this thinking and, you know, testing these things. So he says,

459
00:34:01,102 --> 00:34:06,802
so do people who pay an entry fee into a golf, so do people who pay an entry, is it gambling?

460
00:34:07,042 --> 00:34:11,622
Let's put it back up there. Is it gambling when someone enters into a golf tournament?

461
00:34:12,322 --> 00:34:16,642
Some make the cut and get paid and others miss the cut and come away with nothing. Is that gambling?

462
00:34:17,362 --> 00:34:24,922
How would you guys answer that question? So I think the question of, is there skill involved?

463
00:34:25,602 --> 00:34:30,462
That might be one solution. So someone is participating in the effort, right? So they're

464
00:34:30,462 --> 00:34:36,682
entering in a tournament, if they play well, and there's obviously luck involved in the game and

465
00:34:36,682 --> 00:34:43,342
skill, they get, they benefit from their effort. And then you might have a, you have someone who's

466
00:34:43,342 --> 00:34:50,722
watching the game who is not paying an entry fee, but may bet on their favorite player.

467
00:34:51,442 --> 00:34:57,762
And there may not be skill involved per se, but maybe information. Maybe they've done the research

468
00:34:57,762 --> 00:35:02,021
and they're like, oh yeah, this is the best player on the course.

469
00:35:02,322 --> 00:35:04,902
He has the best chance of winning.

470
00:35:05,001 --> 00:35:06,122
I'm going to put my money there.

471
00:35:07,142 --> 00:35:11,942
And so I think the question of whether or not you have effort and involvement,

472
00:35:12,481 --> 00:35:14,362
I don't feel like that answers the question

473
00:35:14,362 --> 00:35:20,262
because you could be addicted to participating in either the playing of the sport

474
00:35:20,262 --> 00:35:24,521
or the betting on other people playing the sport.

475
00:35:24,521 --> 00:35:35,481
and and so i would want us to make a i would say ask some heart questions um and and so this other

476
00:35:35,481 --> 00:35:40,782
he continues to ask about poker so there's this old documentary called holy rollers where it's a

477
00:35:40,782 --> 00:35:48,302
group of christian uh card counters that go and they have investors money who give them money

478
00:35:48,302 --> 00:35:50,802
They take that cash to the casino.

479
00:35:51,081 --> 00:35:52,422
They play blackjack.

480
00:35:52,581 --> 00:35:53,481
They count cards.

481
00:35:54,001 --> 00:35:56,102
They win more often than they lose.

482
00:35:56,622 --> 00:36:00,182
And then they return money to investors and take a cut for themselves.

483
00:36:00,501 --> 00:36:05,061
And I literally know a guy who funded his church plant doing this.

484
00:36:06,402 --> 00:36:09,001
And so, yes, that involves skill.

485
00:36:10,442 --> 00:36:11,722
And you know what?

486
00:36:11,722 --> 00:36:14,501
You're not breaking the rules of blackjack necessarily.

487
00:36:14,501 --> 00:36:21,202
They might say, hey, no card counting at our table, but hey, I mean, who are you?

488
00:36:22,081 --> 00:36:26,262
Maybe you're like Robin Hood and you're stealing from the rich and giving to the poor and supporting church planting.

489
00:36:26,642 --> 00:36:27,862
So maybe you justify it.

490
00:36:28,602 --> 00:36:36,742
But all that to say, I don't think you can have externalities that say this is the line you can't cross.

491
00:36:36,882 --> 00:36:40,282
I think it really is about fruit of the spirit or fruit of the flesh.

492
00:36:41,041 --> 00:36:42,662
And what comes of this?

493
00:36:42,662 --> 00:36:46,362
Are you, is it leading to fruit of the spirit in your life?

494
00:36:46,902 --> 00:36:50,382
Are you taking advantage of the poor?

495
00:36:50,541 --> 00:36:52,081
Are you stealing from others?

496
00:36:52,742 --> 00:36:55,001
Are you like, can you stop?

497
00:36:55,902 --> 00:36:59,541
So I would want to ask individual like pastoral questions

498
00:36:59,541 --> 00:37:01,001
as opposed to being like,

499
00:37:01,122 --> 00:37:04,682
here's our list of the 10 commandments of thou shalt not gamble.

500
00:37:05,182 --> 00:37:06,462
And this is where the line is.

501
00:37:07,702 --> 00:37:11,222
Yeah, I think another thing that kind of like the whole,

502
00:37:11,222 --> 00:37:19,802
is is the activity zero sum like i think the golf tournament question it tends to be zero sum right

503
00:37:19,802 --> 00:37:26,162
so you might be the best golfer uh it is a little bit of gambling and if you win everyone else loses

504
00:37:26,162 --> 00:37:36,122
so it's like in that sense is it super helpful um like i don't know like i think there's a lot of

505
00:37:36,122 --> 00:37:38,862
I don't think gambling is good.

506
00:37:39,001 --> 00:37:40,602
And I think there's a lot of like,

507
00:37:40,862 --> 00:37:41,702
like quote unquote,

508
00:37:41,782 --> 00:37:43,122
innocent ways we gamble.

509
00:37:43,262 --> 00:37:43,501
Like,

510
00:37:43,742 --> 00:37:44,561
so I grew up,

511
00:37:44,882 --> 00:37:46,762
my main outlet of gambling,

512
00:37:46,962 --> 00:37:49,782
probably my whole life has been bingo at the fair.

513
00:37:51,541 --> 00:37:52,682
I would go to the,

514
00:37:52,782 --> 00:37:54,842
our County fair and sit and play bingo.

515
00:37:55,021 --> 00:37:56,021
Like did I,

516
00:37:56,322 --> 00:38:00,481
I'd spend like most of my time just sitting there drinking soda,

517
00:38:01,122 --> 00:38:03,262
gambling before I could gamble.

518
00:38:03,402 --> 00:38:03,842
Right.

519
00:38:04,162 --> 00:38:05,282
Cause that's what it was.

520
00:38:05,282 --> 00:38:12,962
Of course, it was like a fundraiser for the cheerleaders at the local high school and the cheerleaders are going around and stuff like that.

521
00:38:13,081 --> 00:38:17,862
But at the end of the day, it's like the slippery slope, right?

522
00:38:18,061 --> 00:38:18,242
Yeah.

523
00:38:18,842 --> 00:38:23,041
I mean, what's the baby step to get people into actual adult gambling?

524
00:38:23,222 --> 00:38:26,442
It's like it's all the little forms of gambling, which is, you know.

525
00:38:26,602 --> 00:38:26,922
Correct.

526
00:38:26,922 --> 00:38:34,202
Like buying baseball cards when you're five and then bingo, you know, in your teens and next thing you know.

527
00:38:35,302 --> 00:38:35,922
Anyway, so it's.

528
00:38:39,501 --> 00:38:41,481
Yeah, I think that's the more interesting, right?

529
00:38:41,521 --> 00:38:44,142
Because like you could, I mean, so let's talk about golf, right?

530
00:38:44,262 --> 00:38:45,942
Or let's talk about poker, okay?

531
00:38:46,302 --> 00:38:50,162
In both of these cases, many of the best poker players, they have sponsors.

532
00:38:50,162 --> 00:38:57,382
so they're making money by virtue of the fact that these companies want their products to be seen

533
00:38:57,382 --> 00:39:02,942
and so they'll wear a hat with a logo on it so it's not in those case in the case of those guys

534
00:39:02,942 --> 00:39:08,842
it's not zero-sum because they're getting paid regardless by the sponsors the sponsors content

535
00:39:08,842 --> 00:39:13,541
regardless because they're making money you know or they're getting their products seen so like

536
00:39:13,541 --> 00:39:21,122
at the highest levels, there's more like marketing, like marketing is like, is gambling to an extent,

537
00:39:21,202 --> 00:39:26,962
right? If in that kind of a thing. Um, so again, I, I'm not saying that there's, I do think this

538
00:39:26,962 --> 00:39:32,122
is something that's worth thinking about. I think that just because we're kind of what we're, uh,

539
00:39:32,122 --> 00:39:37,322
what one dog geek, uh, who I would imagine is not, is not a dog geek. If he's listening to this

540
00:39:37,322 --> 00:39:42,802
podcast, surely he can't be that. Um, but I think it's one of these things where I like the instinct

541
00:39:42,802 --> 00:39:56,342
And I think we ought to have the instinct and be willing to say, all right, even if there's something that is totally normalized within our culture, are we willing to question it? Are we willing to push on it and see if it actually is legitimate or if it's not?

542
00:39:56,342 --> 00:40:08,902
But while still giving grace to others who, you know, maybe aren't convinced or haven't thought through these things to that degree, I still think these are conversations that are very valuable and worth having.

543
00:40:08,902 --> 00:40:22,442
Because, again, at the end of the day, it's like what type of world is being created by, you know, what kind of world is being incentivized by a world that lionizes this type of behavior?

544
00:40:22,442 --> 00:40:30,802
um and something else to think about uh the making of the bed that we're now lying in

545
00:40:30,802 --> 00:40:39,742
our entire culture encourages kids to gamble their childhoods away at the lottery chance of

546
00:40:39,742 --> 00:40:45,682
becoming a professional athlete that makes millions of dollars yep it is literally probably

547
00:40:45,682 --> 00:40:50,202
the worst form of gambling that exists.

548
00:40:50,202 --> 00:40:53,862
I would say it's worse than, like Dave Ramsey,

549
00:40:53,981 --> 00:40:57,142
you're wrong in the sense of it didn't start

550
00:40:57,142 --> 00:40:59,682
with DraftKings or FanDuel.

551
00:41:00,122 --> 00:41:01,662
It started with youth sports.

552
00:41:02,061 --> 00:41:03,521
And if you go down that rabbit hole,

553
00:41:03,842 --> 00:41:05,581
we're not talking about some kids wasting

554
00:41:05,581 --> 00:41:06,481
a couple hundred dollars.

555
00:41:06,702 --> 00:41:09,461
They're wasting 15 years of their life.

556
00:41:09,521 --> 00:41:12,622
And all of a sudden they wake up and they're a nobody

557
00:41:12,622 --> 00:41:14,882
when it comes in the athletic world.

558
00:41:14,882 --> 00:41:16,981
They're never going to become a pro athlete.

559
00:41:17,442 --> 00:41:18,722
Their knees are already destroyed.

560
00:41:19,222 --> 00:41:21,501
Their knees are destroyed by the time they're 19.

561
00:41:21,961 --> 00:41:22,222
Yep.

562
00:41:22,902 --> 00:41:27,501
I mean, and it's sad because it's literally, it's all for the hope.

563
00:41:27,602 --> 00:41:28,282
It's the chance.

564
00:41:28,382 --> 00:41:29,282
They're going to the camps.

565
00:41:29,402 --> 00:41:31,481
They're blowing all their, they're blowing their inheritance.

566
00:41:32,282 --> 00:41:33,902
Their parents are in on it.

567
00:41:35,282 --> 00:41:39,622
Look, I love sports more than most people growing up.

568
00:41:39,862 --> 00:41:42,882
But at the end of the day, that's the brutal truth.

569
00:41:42,882 --> 00:41:51,782
And it's, it'd be, it'd be 10 times more productive if kids spent that time actually preparing for life, actually learning skills.

570
00:41:51,902 --> 00:41:57,602
I think our, our gam, the gambling nature in our, in our culture, it runs really deep.

571
00:41:57,602 --> 00:42:01,501
And yeah, I mean, I think we could talk for a long time about when did it start?

572
00:42:02,262 --> 00:42:06,222
Uh, you know, what were the, um, yeah.

573
00:42:06,222 --> 00:42:19,762
And again, I would at least throw out one of the biggest contributors is when you completely break the money and you make the future murky and cloudy when it comes to flourishing.

574
00:42:20,862 --> 00:42:29,981
It causes even parents to be like, well, you know, to dream up ways to have their kids somehow make it lucky or make it big.

575
00:42:30,041 --> 00:42:30,842
And it's like, eh.

576
00:42:31,442 --> 00:42:33,102
Again, that's a deep rot.

577
00:42:33,922 --> 00:42:34,122
Yeah.

578
00:42:34,122 --> 00:42:39,602
And then, I mean, here's Wendell Geek is joking about me saying he can't be a dull geek if he's listening to our podcast.

579
00:42:39,742 --> 00:42:42,102
Are you sure I would think that listening to this podcast and debating the minutia?

580
00:42:42,402 --> 00:42:43,521
No, that's not what geeks do.

581
00:42:43,602 --> 00:42:45,182
That's what philosophers do.

582
00:42:45,282 --> 00:42:45,822
So welcome.

583
00:42:46,021 --> 00:42:46,501
You're a philosopher.

584
00:42:47,162 --> 00:42:55,222
But I do think, again, one other way that we could push into this would be, okay, so even if, let's say, I mean, one example would be Coca-Cola.

585
00:42:55,422 --> 00:42:59,122
I saw an article recently that Coca-Cola has been in the tank.

586
00:42:59,122 --> 00:43:03,722
Like they're actually, they haven't performed as well this year because people are drinking less soda.

587
00:43:03,722 --> 00:43:16,521
And part of the reason they're drinking less soda is because thanks to Robert F. Kennedy Jr., you can no longer use, what's it called, something, whatever the snap benefits.

588
00:43:16,782 --> 00:43:23,561
You can't use like the snap benefits for Coke, for soda now, whereas for years you've been able to do that.

589
00:43:24,102 --> 00:43:28,722
And so let's just say, again, let's say Coke is a totally legitimate company, right?

590
00:43:28,722 --> 00:43:32,001
Like they're selling sugar water to poor people largely.

591
00:43:32,001 --> 00:43:34,282
but like they're actually selling a product.

592
00:43:34,442 --> 00:43:35,461
It's a legitimate transaction.

593
00:43:35,581 --> 00:43:36,402
People are buying it.

594
00:43:36,922 --> 00:43:38,662
Again, the fact that you can,

595
00:43:39,061 --> 00:43:41,001
the fact that there is the legitimate transaction

596
00:43:41,001 --> 00:43:43,622
and the fact that you can make money off of it,

597
00:43:43,942 --> 00:43:45,021
that there's more of a,

598
00:43:45,122 --> 00:43:46,722
there's, you know, this isn't just gambling,

599
00:43:47,262 --> 00:43:49,742
but still, you still have to answer the question of,

600
00:43:50,182 --> 00:43:54,041
am I actually, I am breathing life into a company

601
00:43:54,041 --> 00:43:55,622
that is selling products

602
00:43:55,622 --> 00:43:57,642
that's drawing its life from somewhere.

603
00:43:58,162 --> 00:44:00,202
And so where is it drawing its life from,

604
00:44:00,202 --> 00:44:02,862
from selling sugar water to people.

605
00:44:02,882 --> 00:44:04,702
And isn't Berkshire Hathaway,

606
00:44:04,882 --> 00:44:06,822
like that's all the kind of companies they have?

607
00:44:07,202 --> 00:44:07,521
Correct.

608
00:44:07,862 --> 00:44:10,262
Insurance companies, soda companies.

609
00:44:10,422 --> 00:44:13,842
Now, again, in a potentially related bit of news,

610
00:44:14,001 --> 00:44:15,322
Warren Buffett just retired.

611
00:44:15,762 --> 00:44:17,342
He just retired the other day.

612
00:44:17,782 --> 00:44:19,262
So, you know, maybe-

613
00:44:19,262 --> 00:44:21,342
I'll give you, you know, I'll tell you something.

614
00:44:21,442 --> 00:44:23,162
In my personal opinion,

615
00:44:23,162 --> 00:44:29,442
I would have my conscience awakened much more

616
00:44:29,442 --> 00:44:32,902
by investing all in addictive things like Coca-Cola

617
00:44:32,902 --> 00:44:37,102
than I would playing a game of poker,

618
00:44:37,282 --> 00:44:39,302
which I don't have any desire to personally,

619
00:44:39,481 --> 00:44:41,802
but I'm saying if you play a game of poker between friends

620
00:44:41,802 --> 00:44:44,842
and you're not taking advantage of the little ones

621
00:44:44,842 --> 00:44:48,802
or like your description, Ryan, of doing bingo or whatever

622
00:44:48,802 --> 00:44:50,162
and it's supporting the school,

623
00:44:50,802 --> 00:44:54,961
I see that as so innocent in comparison.

624
00:44:56,061 --> 00:44:58,302
Again, for me, I know those are legitimate companies.

625
00:44:58,302 --> 00:45:00,402
I would just say, I just don't want to.

626
00:45:00,961 --> 00:45:01,501
You know what I mean?

627
00:45:01,541 --> 00:45:04,581
I would invest in something else because it just wouldn't feel good for me.

628
00:45:04,762 --> 00:45:05,282
You know what I mean?

629
00:45:05,442 --> 00:45:05,602
Yeah.

630
00:45:05,762 --> 00:45:07,302
And I wonder too.

631
00:45:07,642 --> 00:45:12,021
It goes up and more, you know, you celebrate with everyone else getting diabetes.

632
00:45:13,001 --> 00:45:15,102
You know, yeah, exactly.

633
00:45:15,222 --> 00:45:17,402
And especially if that's all you invest in, right?

634
00:45:17,481 --> 00:45:22,102
It's like that's all things that you know are going to do okay because people are addicts.

635
00:45:22,182 --> 00:45:22,642
You know what I mean?

636
00:45:22,642 --> 00:45:27,322
That's not a great moral standing, even though it might be legal, you know?

637
00:45:28,302 --> 00:45:42,942
I know the podcast won't last forever, so we only cover so many topics, but one of the things we talked about before was like, I think Ashi brought up was like labor and making products and services and stuff like that and how the Bible encourages us to that.

638
00:45:43,461 --> 00:45:44,602
And it just stuck in my head.

639
00:45:44,782 --> 00:45:49,642
Like, I don't think that there's anything wrong for Christians either in seeking an advantage.

640
00:45:49,642 --> 00:45:50,342
You know what I mean?

641
00:45:50,342 --> 00:45:57,461
Like if you know that such and such is going on before other people know or 1% and Bitcoin's one of those things.

642
00:45:57,541 --> 00:45:58,422
I don't think it's more.

643
00:45:58,521 --> 00:45:59,402
It's a speculative asset.

644
00:45:59,742 --> 00:46:03,182
But if you knew ahead of time, you could say, wow, this is like the gold rush.

645
00:46:03,182 --> 00:46:09,021
I get to California before everybody else and I'm able to find a silver mine in a gold mine.

646
00:46:09,182 --> 00:46:16,322
And I always remember listening to Mark Twain's story of himself doing this because he lost a silver mine.

647
00:46:16,402 --> 00:46:17,282
He got a silver mine.

648
00:46:17,642 --> 00:46:19,362
He didn't turn the paperwork in on time.

649
00:46:19,362 --> 00:46:25,061
it turned out to be worth like 10 million dollars uh it's just like a classic story but anyway um

650
00:46:25,061 --> 00:46:29,622
you know when you do that you're taking a lot of danger too you get into bitcoin early you don't

651
00:46:29,622 --> 00:46:34,581
really know if you're doing it for that sake you don't really know but you're also doing it for the

652
00:46:34,581 --> 00:46:40,882
mission so you know you go out to the wild west and there are literally murderers at every table

653
00:46:40,882 --> 00:46:46,402
you go eat at i mean he's talking about the the murderer like bad bill or something taking being

654
00:46:46,402 --> 00:46:50,021
like, oh, there's only one more pot left in the coffee pot. You can go ahead and take it.

655
00:46:50,561 --> 00:46:53,882
He said, Mark Twain, he's like, I'm not sure if that was, he was trying to give me an excuse to

656
00:46:53,882 --> 00:46:58,461
kill me. You know what I mean? And if you kill somebody, you get out in like four months,

657
00:46:58,541 --> 00:47:04,122
you know what I mean? So it's like, I'm just using these as parallels. I don't think it's

658
00:47:04,122 --> 00:47:09,382
wrong for Christians to seek, to take that special information and take a risk and try to get

659
00:47:09,382 --> 00:47:14,162
outsized returns. But it really depends on if you're taking advantage of somebody, you know?

660
00:47:14,162 --> 00:47:19,662
Yeah. I'll give you, I'll give you an example of this. It's like trying to, of trying to walk this,

661
00:47:19,662 --> 00:47:23,541
trying to walk this line. Right. So again, so there's, there's a difference. So one of the

662
00:47:23,541 --> 00:47:28,842
things I've, I've invested in some sports cards at different points of my life. So like, I think

663
00:47:28,842 --> 00:47:34,561
four years ago, I had a buddy who's just been in, been in sports cards, not, he doesn't do

664
00:47:34,561 --> 00:47:38,862
like the things that try to make money quickly. He just, what he does is he goes like a sports

665
00:47:38,862 --> 00:47:44,642
card store and buys, you know, buys little cards for like two or three bucks and then flips them

666
00:47:44,642 --> 00:47:49,342
for four or five. So he's, he's constantly trying to make like, again, if you think about that,

667
00:47:49,402 --> 00:47:55,001
that's, you know, it's stuck in 30, 40% returns. But in many cases, he's just content to make a

668
00:47:55,001 --> 00:48:00,021
couple dollars on each sale. And he's done this for a year. Like I'm talking decades. And so he

669
00:48:00,021 --> 00:48:04,602
was just kind of talking to me about what he was doing and we were living in Uruguay. And so I just

670
00:48:04,602 --> 00:48:06,602
I was like, what is the information asymmetry

671
00:48:06,602 --> 00:48:08,602
that I have given where I am?

672
00:48:08,602 --> 00:48:11,602
You know, like you had Moses who's in the desert

673
00:48:11,602 --> 00:48:13,602
and what, you know, God says, what is that in your hand?

674
00:48:13,602 --> 00:48:14,602
And Moses has a staff.

675
00:48:14,602 --> 00:48:16,602
And so then God uses this thing that's in his hand.

676
00:48:16,602 --> 00:48:17,602
So I just started to think like,

677
00:48:17,602 --> 00:48:19,602
what is the information asymmetry that I have

678
00:48:19,602 --> 00:48:21,602
by virtue of being in Uruguay?

679
00:48:21,602 --> 00:48:22,602
And I was just thinking, well, potentially,

680
00:48:22,602 --> 00:48:33,802
Uruguay is obsessed with soccer So like maybe I can find out the newest soccer players you know like these guys when they young I can you know find and I can buy their cards while they young

681
00:48:33,823 --> 00:48:37,282
And then when they transfer to Europe or something like that, I can make some money off that.

682
00:48:37,502 --> 00:48:41,862
And so I ended up in a place where I invent, there was one guy, I ended up buying some of

683
00:48:41,862 --> 00:48:43,962
his cards, bought them for cheaper.

684
00:48:44,482 --> 00:48:49,622
And the cards ended up, long story short, the cards, I ended up selling them, or I got

685
00:48:49,622 --> 00:48:55,162
the point where I could sell them for about four times what I paid for them. But as I was sitting

686
00:48:55,162 --> 00:48:59,682
there looking to sell them, I was looking and there were, there were rumors that the guy was

687
00:48:59,682 --> 00:49:06,422
going to transfer to one of the biggest, biggest sports teams in the world. And so I knew that when

688
00:49:06,422 --> 00:49:11,102
it like, when, and if he did that, those cards were going to like Trump, triple, quadruple,

689
00:49:11,182 --> 00:49:16,882
whatever in value. But I also knew that I had, I had already gotten a good return off of them.

690
00:49:16,882 --> 00:49:34,442
And as I thought about it, I was like, I don't want to, like if I wait and then sell these cards to somebody at the absolute peak of the market where there's pretty much no chance of them going any higher, like I don't want to put myself in a situation where I've benefited and put somebody else in like a losing situation.

691
00:49:34,442 --> 00:49:49,563
And so I chose to knowingly sell those cards at a 4x profit, knowing that unless the guy like tore his ACL or got in a car accident and died or something crazy, that the cards value were going to go up significantly in the next like month or two.

692
00:49:50,023 --> 00:49:58,282
So I ended up selling them for a 4x return. And within a month, the guy transferred in the cards all 3, 4x from even where I was at.

693
00:49:58,282 --> 00:50:03,642
And so even though I'm looking at it and I was like, oh man, Lord, it would have been great.

694
00:50:03,802 --> 00:50:06,642
I still was, I was like, I have a totally clear conscience.

695
00:50:07,162 --> 00:50:12,902
And I was able to serve my neighbor who bought these cards and put him in a better situation than I was in.

696
00:50:13,362 --> 00:50:16,682
And so again, we're not, every situation is not going to be like this.

697
00:50:16,762 --> 00:50:19,982
But I do think that this is a Christian way of thinking.

698
00:50:20,462 --> 00:50:25,802
Like this is a Christian way to think about these things is we don't want to, unless it's wickedness.

699
00:50:25,802 --> 00:50:40,122
And then we do, we have the scriptural warrant to like, to rug, but like, we, we don't want to just quote unquote win or get wealthy at the expense of, you know, like at the expense of doing right by other people.

700
00:50:40,602 --> 00:50:43,962
Or, you know, this is not how could, we don't try to maximize profit.

701
00:50:44,262 --> 00:50:45,302
The scriptures talk about this.

702
00:50:45,362 --> 00:50:54,082
One example is where the Lord tells, he told the people, the people of Israel when they were in the land, not to, he told them to leave the corners of their fields.

703
00:50:54,823 --> 00:50:55,262
Right.

704
00:50:55,262 --> 00:51:00,802
he said you know when like leave leave the corners of the fields for the poor don't absolutely

705
00:51:00,802 --> 00:51:05,422
maximize every ounce of profit that you possibly can don't do it you know because like the lord

706
00:51:05,422 --> 00:51:09,262
why because the lord took care of you when you were in egypt you know he didn't you know he

707
00:51:09,262 --> 00:51:14,182
basically helped you when you were poor when you had nothing and so again these are these are

708
00:51:14,182 --> 00:51:19,962
foreign ways of thinking in in a you know god-forsaken world in a world where you know

709
00:51:19,962 --> 00:51:24,142
everyone you know where the love of many is growing cold to quote another scripture

710
00:51:24,142 --> 00:51:28,942
Um, and so that's, I, I've just been thinking about that the last few days is, you know, when,

711
00:51:29,043 --> 00:51:37,102
when money, when money is, um, you know, when money is not sound, when money is soft, then the,

712
00:51:37,162 --> 00:51:42,702
the love of many grows cold. Like that's what it is. Like you, it's, it's, it's a hard world to live

713
00:51:42,702 --> 00:51:48,742
in. Uh, when people are just looking, there's constantly more and more opportunities to screw

714
00:51:48,742 --> 00:51:57,122
over people around you. So Proverbs 13, 11 in the new living translation says wealth from get rich

715
00:51:57,122 --> 00:52:05,402
quick schemes quickly disappears. Wealth from hard work grows over time. And I think that's a,

716
00:52:05,402 --> 00:52:12,502
that's a helpful, um, maybe metric or measuring line for, for the, the things that we're doing

717
00:52:12,502 --> 00:52:14,862
is, is this a get rich quick scheme?

718
00:52:15,282 --> 00:52:19,242
Am I trying to bypass work and how God has made the world?

719
00:52:19,962 --> 00:52:21,642
And what happens, and you hear all the stories

720
00:52:21,642 --> 00:52:22,942
about people that won the lottery

721
00:52:22,942 --> 00:52:26,762
and then their life is like exponentially worse

722
00:52:26,762 --> 00:52:29,102
because of it and they wish they had never won it.

723
00:52:29,982 --> 00:52:32,262
It's because we're designed,

724
00:52:32,642 --> 00:52:34,842
wealth from hard work grows over time.

725
00:52:34,842 --> 00:52:36,922
The hard work sanctifies us

726
00:52:36,922 --> 00:52:39,082
so that now we're good stewards, right?

727
00:52:39,162 --> 00:52:41,262
So he can entrust to us more

728
00:52:41,262 --> 00:52:42,862
because we've been faithful with little.

729
00:52:43,282 --> 00:52:45,642
That's kind of just how God works the world

730
00:52:45,642 --> 00:52:46,962
and how he works our hearts.

731
00:52:47,102 --> 00:52:48,002
We're stewards.

732
00:52:48,682 --> 00:52:51,662
And so if we inherit a lot,

733
00:52:52,082 --> 00:52:54,422
whether it's from parents or from a lottery

734
00:52:54,422 --> 00:52:55,722
or for some big win,

735
00:52:56,102 --> 00:52:58,722
and we haven't built the character first,

736
00:52:59,222 --> 00:53:01,323
it'll actually do us more harm than good.

737
00:53:01,602 --> 00:53:04,382
But if we build the character through the hard work,

738
00:53:04,622 --> 00:53:08,582
then we can be rich and wealthy

739
00:53:08,582 --> 00:53:10,862
and it's a blessing to ourself

740
00:53:10,862 --> 00:53:19,242
and others. I worked for Drywall once with a Romanian guy who was just a machine.

741
00:53:20,182 --> 00:53:27,023
And he was a Christian too. And he said, if you get tired, just let me know. I'm just going to

742
00:53:27,023 --> 00:53:35,262
keep going. You know what I mean? But he also said partway through, he looks around and we're

743
00:53:35,262 --> 00:53:40,043
sweating. I don't know if you've ever done drywall work, it is hard work. And he says,

744
00:53:40,043 --> 00:53:43,502
when you work so hard, it makes you think twice about spending your money, doesn't it?

745
00:53:44,662 --> 00:53:50,382
You know, and, you know, it's true though, as you, hopefully as you mature as a man and a provider,

746
00:53:50,382 --> 00:53:56,802
you go ideally, if God wills, and if you're, it's possible, you go from just hourly work,

747
00:53:56,842 --> 00:54:00,982
hopefully to being able to manage things, to maybe being able to even manage money or be

748
00:54:00,982 --> 00:54:05,922
investing in other things. And that's a good progression if it's possible. And we should

749
00:54:05,922 --> 00:54:11,602
maybe aspire to that. But yeah, if you have that foundational work of I've worked and I could say

750
00:54:11,602 --> 00:54:16,762
for myself, I worked so hard in my business that the next stage was death. You know what I mean?

751
00:54:16,823 --> 00:54:21,902
Like we're working till like six in the morning because we're going to open at six and I'm fixing

752
00:54:21,902 --> 00:54:27,762
things until literally six in the morning and zero sleep. And this is, you know, and so I don't

753
00:54:27,762 --> 00:54:34,122
think, I think it's good to have that. And maybe some people can come at it by conviction without

754
00:54:34,122 --> 00:54:42,222
going through that process, I think. But yeah, if you, it can be a curse. And I do think,

755
00:54:42,602 --> 00:54:46,742
you know, we, I do think it would, it'd be, it's a good aspiration to get to where we can

756
00:54:46,742 --> 00:54:54,323
be providing for others as not only our family, but managing others. And what you said hit me,

757
00:54:54,323 --> 00:55:00,582
because I've been managing a cafe for 13 years. I shut it down about a year ago. And in my mind,

758
00:55:00,582 --> 00:55:10,402
And I'm just like, I don't ever want to manage like 20 people at a time in for the rest of my life, you know, but I've been I've been a little bit convicted lately.

759
00:55:11,323 --> 00:55:15,543
How much Jesus talks about he's trying to develop us into being good managers.

760
00:55:15,742 --> 00:55:19,842
Yep. And I literally told my wife about two weeks ago, I said, I was praying, babe.

761
00:55:19,862 --> 00:55:30,523
And I'm like, I think I think I'm going to have to not give up on managing, you know, because I am 10 times the manager or 20 times the manager that I was when I began that journey.

762
00:55:30,582 --> 00:55:53,242
And God actually wants us to be a wise steward in his field and in some strange way to manage things in eternity. And so I feel like I've come to a conviction personally recently that I can't give up on that people management. I just need to get better at it and be wiser.

763
00:55:53,242 --> 00:56:11,962
It is one of those things where, you know, again, if you thought about, you know, if you invest in somebody, I mean, if you have like a trade, right, and you invest in somebody as an electrician or something like that, you, I mean, there's people where, there's businesses where they will, they'll hire you and do on the job training with you.

764
00:56:11,962 --> 00:56:21,742
So you're taking a risk, you're making an investment in somebody in a way that they're not able to immediately pay you back for that.

765
00:56:22,902 --> 00:56:26,023
They're not able to pay dividends on the training that you're giving them.

766
00:56:26,162 --> 00:56:30,282
That requires a faith-born investment in some part.

767
00:56:30,922 --> 00:56:40,222
And so it does make sense that that is done with a view towards being able to enjoy some of the return in the long haul.

768
00:56:40,222 --> 00:56:58,802
And so thinking about God as an investor, I think is a very, it's a fruitful metaphor. It's a fruitful thing to think about. Because again, yeah, God has, God invests in all of us life. He invests all of us with skills and abilities, and he wants a return on those things.

769
00:56:58,802 --> 00:57:03,482
And so, you know, to your point to just basically turn around and say, I don't want to do this anymore.

770
00:57:03,623 --> 00:57:08,802
You know, you're it's like that's that's not the attitude that a servant or that a slave has.

771
00:57:08,802 --> 00:57:20,102
And if Christ is is our Lord, then that that's an attitude that's incompatible, you know, with what it means to to, you know, to be a Christian and, you know, for the Lord to be your Lord.

772
00:57:20,682 --> 00:57:26,422
Now, I will say, again, a lot of us, I mean, we could I'm sure I think all of us here have have altcoin stories.

773
00:57:26,422 --> 00:57:31,442
We have examples. I mean, there's, you know, like I've, I've delved into all these worlds. And so

774
00:57:31,442 --> 00:57:35,442
there's, there's things where, you know, for a lot of the same reasons that many of us who get

775
00:57:35,442 --> 00:57:42,782
into altcoins at some point, like we are, we are very anti. Ryan has some great NFT stories.

776
00:57:43,063 --> 00:57:48,502
Correct. Yep. Yep. And so again, all of these things, like we, we have, we can all get into

777
00:57:48,502 --> 00:57:53,142
these things. The point of talking about these things, it is not at all to say, how dare you

778
00:57:53,142 --> 00:57:57,063
other people, it's like, Hey, how dare us? Like we've, we've fallen into some of these things.

779
00:57:57,642 --> 00:58:02,102
You know, we've, we've lost money. We've been poor stewards and, and, you know, we were learning

780
00:58:02,102 --> 00:58:07,023
from them. And so again, this, the goal is just to, is to think the goal of this podcast and the

781
00:58:07,023 --> 00:58:12,762
goal of talking about them is just to help us both for our sake, for the glory of God and for,

782
00:58:12,762 --> 00:58:18,342
you know, generations of people coming after us. And so I think that it's again, profitable

783
00:58:18,342 --> 00:58:22,922
and helpful just to think through this. And, and also again, Matt, to some of your point,

784
00:58:23,023 --> 00:58:30,162
to be prepared and to kind of bring this full circle, be prepared to help the, the hundreds

785
00:58:30,162 --> 00:58:37,123
and thousands of men who are just walking day by day, headfirst into this wood chipper.

786
00:58:37,962 --> 00:58:43,322
And, you know, who, who are, are, you know, are losing more money than they have and putting

787
00:58:43,322 --> 00:58:46,902
themselves and their families and all kinds of stuff into super, you know, dangerous situations.

788
00:58:46,902 --> 00:58:50,462
So, again, we've been going for, go ahead.

789
00:58:50,862 --> 00:58:59,342
I was going to say, I feel like I said this maybe six months ago or something, but to repeat it and expand, I think that maybe a message to Bitcoiners, right?

790
00:58:59,523 --> 00:59:00,722
Specifically Bitcoiners.

791
00:59:01,582 --> 00:59:09,442
I have a sense, and you guys can reflect on it with me, that there's a lot of like, when is it going to moon?

792
00:59:09,782 --> 00:59:10,262
You know what I mean?

793
00:59:10,262 --> 00:59:11,563
I'm waiting for it to moon.

794
00:59:11,822 --> 00:59:14,602
And when it moons, I'll finally make it, right?

795
00:59:15,282 --> 00:59:16,662
And we all feel that.

796
00:59:16,662 --> 00:59:23,182
I hope I'm unreasonably put myself in the, at the mercy of Bitcoin, but it's for the revolution too.

797
00:59:23,742 --> 00:59:30,402
And, but here's the thing, here's my message is we need to keep, we Bitcoiners, we need to keep our

798
00:59:30,402 --> 00:59:36,422
eyes, especially Christians, like you have a future of service and making things and building things

799
00:59:36,422 --> 00:59:40,922
and helping people and managing people and not just waiting for Bitcoin to moon. You know what

800
00:59:40,922 --> 00:59:45,262
I mean? And, and, and I don't know if you guys get the same sense, but I just, I feel like there's,

801
00:59:45,262 --> 00:59:55,322
I hope that on we and that sort of despair is not infecting also the Bitcoin community too much in terms of like, go make something, go help somebody.

802
00:59:55,642 --> 00:59:56,302
You know what I mean?

803
00:59:56,563 --> 01:00:04,982
Go, if you have nothing going on, go buy a pressure washer for 50 bucks used on marketplace and just walk down the street and say, can I pressure wash your driveway?

804
01:00:05,282 --> 01:00:05,702
You know what I mean?

805
01:00:06,023 --> 01:00:14,362
Like do something because I think that sometimes we can, and maybe all of us are tempted by this, like, wow, it could be worth this much money later.

806
01:00:14,362 --> 01:00:15,262
and I wouldn't have to worry.

807
01:00:16,002 --> 01:00:19,902
You still have a future in using your gifts in some way.

808
01:00:20,642 --> 01:00:23,422
And the management kind of thing I did

809
01:00:23,422 --> 01:00:25,822
as managing a cafe with restaurant work,

810
01:00:25,902 --> 01:00:26,762
extremely difficult.

811
01:00:26,862 --> 01:00:27,822
Everybody would say so.

812
01:00:29,762 --> 01:00:32,082
I don't think we're all called to do

813
01:00:32,082 --> 01:00:33,462
exactly the same kind of management.

814
01:00:33,602 --> 01:00:35,182
But when I look at Jesus's parables,

815
01:00:35,442 --> 01:00:37,582
it's like, man, it is strong in there.

816
01:00:38,023 --> 01:00:39,462
You are supposed to be growing,

817
01:00:39,462 --> 01:00:50,162
to be more like Christ in governing, managing, his stewarding his things. And I think you can't get,

818
01:00:50,342 --> 01:00:55,302
the people can't be out of that equation. You know what I mean? And your point about

819
01:00:55,302 --> 01:01:01,922
the heart behind the gleaning, you know, I think I'll apply it to what you said, Jordan.

820
01:01:02,482 --> 01:01:09,162
Not everybody has literally trees or plants that you can say, go ahead and pick from. I actually do.

821
01:01:09,462 --> 01:01:15,502
So I have people steal my fruit and I literally pull up and there's a truck with people stealing my avocados.

822
01:01:15,502 --> 01:01:20,002
And I say, hey, if you guys want to take a few and for a bag for your family, go ahead.

823
01:01:20,043 --> 01:01:25,722
But just don't just don't fill it up and sell it to people, which they'll steal my avocados and try to sell it to me.

824
01:01:25,842 --> 01:01:34,382
But anyway, but it might but it might be like you said, you're an electrician and you take on somebody who it's like, eh, maybe not going to bring a return.

825
01:01:34,382 --> 01:01:42,762
And that's maybe a form of even gleaning and saying this person is going to walk away with skills and I may not walk away with anything helpful to me materially.

826
01:01:43,563 --> 01:01:53,582
I know that's a little off topic from the main topic, but I hope Bitcoiners are like staying on track with like learning skills, building things, serving your fellow man.

827
01:01:54,362 --> 01:02:00,123
Yeah, I think we've touched on a lot of the negatives, you know, concerning gambling.

828
01:02:00,123 --> 01:02:08,762
But I think, yeah, probably the bigger issue is I think there's a lot of people, and I would say I would include myself in this.

829
01:02:09,623 --> 01:02:17,543
We didn't grow up with a very strong theology of work, and we didn't view work as worship.

830
01:02:17,702 --> 01:02:24,922
It was just a separate compartment of life that is just something you had to do to make money.

831
01:02:24,922 --> 01:02:33,082
and um but work work is worship and when you think about it like that and we're stewards of

832
01:02:33,082 --> 01:02:41,682
the time that god's given us uh it changes how you think about work and when we if you have a

833
01:02:41,682 --> 01:02:46,902
fear of god and know that one day you're going to get an account for how you spent your time and how

834
01:02:46,902 --> 01:02:52,523
you worked and what you did when you can choose 10 one of 10 million different things you know or

835
01:02:52,523 --> 01:02:59,902
ways to make money, it kind of just puts it in a different light. Like, well, Lord, I hope I was

836
01:02:59,902 --> 01:03:07,282
faithful, you know, in this form of gambling. I mean, there's a lot of other ways that you can be

837
01:03:07,282 --> 01:03:13,142
a blessing to people and make money and add value. And it's not zero sum. Like, your neighbor wins.

838
01:03:13,142 --> 01:03:21,782
Like, it just, that's where it's just like, make your work be worship and then go do anything you

839
01:03:21,782 --> 01:03:28,402
want, you know, and God will reward you in heaven and you'll sleep better at night if you choose

840
01:03:28,402 --> 01:03:35,842
well, and you'll be a blessing to your community. And anyways, I just, it would be beneficial to us

841
01:03:35,842 --> 01:03:40,482
all to spend more time just thinking about our work in that light, in my opinion.

842
01:03:42,063 --> 01:03:45,402
Amen. We've been going for about an hour and four minutes. Grateful for you guys.

843
01:03:45,842 --> 01:03:50,502
As we mentioned, if you want to pick up some of your TGFB books, pre-orders, you can go over to

844
01:03:50,502 --> 01:03:57,442
tgfb.com or as it's store.tgfb.com. If you want to get your tickets, go to tgfb.com slash conference.

845
01:03:57,762 --> 01:04:02,422
We sold a number of tickets this past week. Run over there and grab yours. Again, reach out if you

846
01:04:02,422 --> 01:04:07,282
have a pastor or a ministry leader that wants to come and we will do discounted tickets for them.

847
01:04:07,882 --> 01:04:13,582
We are grateful for you guys. Ash, Ryan, Matt, thankful for your friendship and for your

848
01:04:13,582 --> 01:04:18,682
participation on this topic. We'll be back later this week for another episode of the

849
01:04:18,682 --> 01:04:19,502
Thank you for the Bitcoin podcast.