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And we are live episode 24 of to the unknown pod.

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Welcome.

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Welcome again.

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My name is Jordan Bush.

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I am the executive director of TGFB media, which exists to help Christians understand

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and use Bitcoin for the glory of God and the good of people everywhere.

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Today I am joined by the full cast and crew of the mountain presby's guys.

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Go ahead and introduce yourself.

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I'm Tim Fox. I am executive director of Magnolia Foundation, working to Orange Bell the Church, teaching them about Bitcoin, helping them use it and accept it as donations.

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My name is Jim McAndrew. I'm working with Tim at Magnolia. I'm tech support. And I also run a software company called DroneLink. So if you need to fly a drone, you need to buy my software.

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and i'm ashiel hawthorne executive director and founder of brilliance labs

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we help kingdom entrepreneurs start things and we're working on some global bitcoin projects

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uh i'm stoked to announce we just won a grant from uh the paystand foundation let's go shout

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out to those guys awesome uh ogs in the space and so we're going to be building a a network

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of missions funding,

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like a missions funding platform and network

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for using Lightning payments

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to get funds into creative access context.

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So stoked on that.

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Woot.

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I love that Ash was so excited about that development

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that he didn't even renounce his Presbyterianism

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that I gave him.

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So this is pretty great.

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I'm going to make him do this every episode,

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renounce.

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He's the only non-Presbyterian on the call.

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super exciting

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now we don't need to talk about it

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what if my Baptist pastor is listening

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Thomas

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don't worry

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you know better

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everybody's really a Presbyterian

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they just don't realize it

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everyone's a Bitcoin maximist

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they're just not there yet

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alright so guys we are here today

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for a very fun conversation

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which will

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anyhow this is a conversation about

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you may see this in the title,

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meme coins for the glory of God, question mark.

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It's very important we put the question mark on there.

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There's been, man, there's been a lot of conversation

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over the last seemingly every few years,

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there comes a new set of projects

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or whatever you want to call them in the crypto space.

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We had basically back in 2017,

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you had the ICO craze

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where just everyone and their mom had a token coming out.

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Then you had the altcoin fervor from a few years back.

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Then we had NFTs.

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Now it's meme coins.

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I guess you could say that stuff like Doge was an early meme coin,

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OG meme coin, but they have really emerged in recent years.

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And so, again, we talk with people all the time

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who just have questions about these things.

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They want to know, they want to understand,

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Are those the same as Bitcoin? What is the point of these things? What is the future

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prognosis of these things? And so we just kind of want to take at least one episode and get into

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talking about them. The other thing that makes them, I mean, just basically on our radar,

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is a debate that I did on the Dead Men Walking podcast

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where I debated the founder of another crypto project,

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it was called, or of a meme coin project called 1689 coin.

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For those not in the loop, 1689 coin is a reference

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to the London Baptist Confession,

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which is a Reformed Baptist,

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historic Reformed Baptist confession

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that a lot of Reformed Baptist churches subscribe to.

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And so this coin is, I don't know,

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aimed at the 1689 proponents.

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And the guy who founded it, his name is Chance.

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He has a whole bunch of other businesses,

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totally legitimate businesses, selling cigars,

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all these kinds of things

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that kind of play on the 1689 theme.

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So we went on there and just basically had a debate

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about the legitimacy of meme coins,

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about whether or not Christians should basically be involved in meme coins at all,

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and especially whether or not Christians should be founders of meme coins,

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given some of the dynamics of how they work and a whole host of other things.

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So we had this debate.

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The debate went fine.

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And then when the debate ended, and I, again, just did my best.

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You can go find that debate on our Twitter.

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You can find the debate on the Dead Men Walking, Twitter as well, Facebook, all these different places.

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You can find and watch the debate.

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I think that what you're going to find is that I was, I mean, as gracious as I could be, not tried to make crazy outlandish accusations against people.

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And so, you know, just kind of had this conversation.

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And then we got off the conversation, thought that everything was as good as it could be.

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and then the next day proceeded to uh to see that basically the the guy chance uh who i don't know

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i mean i i don't i wouldn't say we're friends but like i wouldn't say we're enemies either we've met

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a few times and you know they're that's kind of the extent of it but he proceeded to post on uh

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on facebook i believe that uh i had made nothing but emotional arguments throughout the the course

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of the podcast or the debate and so i just thought you know i didn't i didn't say anything

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in the moment, just thought, you know what? It's going to be better to let it breathe for,

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let it breathe for a day or two. And then we can just come on and just kind of lay out

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both the things, some of the things we talked about on the debate, as well as just some other

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things that we didn't even get to on the debate. So Jim, I will just let you kind of hit, you know,

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hit things first. I want you kind of, you did watch the debate. You are, we've been talking

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about this conversation, again, far beyond just the 1689 coin, but what were your thoughts as you

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kind of were introduced to meme coins more broadly and then this project in particular.

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Hit the beehive, Jim. Hit the beehive. Whack the hornet nest. I'll come out buzzing.

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No, I mean, I've got several questions for sure. Obviously, he's not on here to defend himself,

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but I am curious to see what you guys, what your reactions are to these questions. But before I get

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into those, I did just want to address one thing that he said. I think he made a comment to the

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extent of 10 companies own 92% of Bitcoin, which you kind of obliquely answered by saying that,

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well, a lot of those big companies are actually just exchanges. And so they don't really own that

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Bitcoin. In fairness, a critique back against your answer would be, well, that still leads to

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centralization sure which is a problem and we'll touch on centralization in my second question

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coming up here in a second but if you can just go ahead and pull up do you have the river i do ink

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i will share it now and i did share this when i when i shared the the link to the debate itself

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uh jim had shared that uh this particular link and basically said hey that's actually not true so

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uh here we are do we want to watch the video uh how long is it oh let me see here who owns

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Six minutes and 54 seconds?

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I say we do it.

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Yeah, roll it.

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Let's do it.

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All right, can you guys hear that?

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Do you guys hear that one?

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Yeah.

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The most Bitcoin.

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Since there will only ever be 21 million Bitcoin,

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a lot of people, companies, funds,

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and even governments have been accumulating it.

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Today, the vast majority of Bitcoin

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is held by individuals,

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though much has been lost in the early years.

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Do we want to freeze this here?

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Is this helpful just to kind of initially maybe?

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initially demonstrate.

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You can see right here that

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according to River,

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57% of Bitcoin

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is owned by individuals still,

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which is absolutely astounding,

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especially when you compare it to

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other projects like Ethereum.

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Correct.

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Yeah, or a whole bunch of other ones

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that we could mention.

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So yeah, this is kind of the

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most up-to-date.

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This is February 24.

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I believe there's also more up-to-date

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information in the article itself

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if you want to check it out.

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But we'll keep watching here.

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Before Bitcoin had much value,

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Bitcoin is increasingly being accumulated by companies and funds too.

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So who owns the most Bitcoin in each of these categories?

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Learn more in this video.

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We start with people.

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Satoshi Nakamoto, Bitcoin's anonymous creator,

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is estimated to own 1.1 million Bitcoin.

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Satoshi was an early Bitcoin miner who kept the system going before people paid much attention.

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This 1.1 million Bitcoin worth over $77 billion is still sitting untouched across 22,000 addresses over 15 years later and may never move.

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The Winklevoss twins are rumored to hold approximately 70,000 Bitcoin.

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Venture capitalist Tim Draper is estimated to hold at least 30,000 Bitcoin.

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Michael Saylor, the executive chairman and co-founder of MicroStrategy,

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shared he personally owns 17,732 Bitcoin alongside the company's holdings.

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There are several other tech billionaires who own Bitcoin, such as Elon Musk, Jack Dorsey,

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Tim Cook, and Mark Zuckerberg. Next up are companies. Tech company MicroStrategy owns

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214,246 Bitcoin, or 1% of the total supply, and has been buying more at a rapid pace.

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Block One, the company behind a failed cryptocurrency, is still rumored to hold the

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164,000 Bitcoin it raised for launching its project. Stablecoin company Tether has accumulated

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66,465 Bitcoin. There are dozens of other companies that hold thousands of Bitcoin on

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their balance sheet, and many exchanges such as Binance, Coinbase, Bitfinex, and Robinhood

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that hold large amounts of Bitcoin for clients. Since the ETF approval in January 2024, funds have

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been rapidly accumulating Bitcoin on behalf of their clients. A year after approval, they are

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expected to hold around 10% of the total supply. The biggest funds are Grayscale, BlackRock's iShares,

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and Fidelity, each holding hundreds of thousands of Bitcoin.

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Finally, we have governments.

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Only El Salvador and Bhutan have accumulated Bitcoin on the open market.

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Other countries, such as the United States, China, the UK, and Germany,

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have confiscated Bitcoin from companies that broke laws

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and will typically auction these holdings off.

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There we go.

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So a lot of this, yeah, a lot of these, let me cancel this here.

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A lot of these, basically, this data is changing.

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As they mentioned, you have more and more companies, especially even in the last six months, you have more and more companies that are buying up thousands and thousands and thousands of Bitcoin.

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This is countries all over the world.

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This is companies on every continent.

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There's nations who are continuing to buy.

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And so the idea that there's 10 companies, only 10 companies that hold 90% of the Bitcoin just could not be less true.

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Yeah, I mean, that video was from February 2024.

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Since then, MicroStrategy or just Strategy has a bunch more.

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I think they're almost up to 3%.

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They're the largest.

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So if you just add all the other ones together, we're still talking about a single-digit percentage in terms of those companies.

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And then, yes, the ETFs are companies and they own a double digit percentage, probably in the teens. But again, they're just custodying the Bitcoin on behalf of individuals or other companies. So it's not even close.

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having said that the video did bring up a good point which was satoshi the creator does have

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theoretically over a million coins and so maybe you would be tempted to think that similar to

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meme coins that are built on a proof of work or sorry a proof of stake protocol like solana

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that have pre-mines satoshi pre-mined but of course he didn't pre-mine he mined all of those

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after he launched the network

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when everybody else could also be mining.

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Correct.

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At the same time.

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And there were people like Hal Finney that were mining.

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Yep.

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And so, you know, everybody had a fair shot at that point.

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And this is sort of getting into my first question

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slash critique, which is...

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Can I mention one thing real quick before we get there?

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Yeah.

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Just, I want to clarify.

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So Satoshi launched the Bitcoin project,

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talked about the Bitcoin project in October 31st of 2008.

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So there was a two, you know, a little bit over a two month period

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where there were plenty of people who were interacting,

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who knew about this project before Satoshi ever initiated

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and was ever mining any Bitcoin.

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So there were dozens of people, if not hundreds,

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who were on this mailing list and who were aware of this project

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and who could have, if they desired to,

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could have spent real-world resources to mine Bitcoin.

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Nobody was given a leg up in the same sense

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as happens with many meme coins, including 1689 coin.

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Right.

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So he launched 1689 on Solana with Moonshot,

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had a billion coin pre-mine,

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which he has 238 million of those coins or something.

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Yep.

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So as the founder and promoter of this project, he got to pre-mine, give himself all those coins.

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Yep.

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At no cost.

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Correct.

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Before everybody else knew about it and then launched it.

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And now everybody else that comes along in order to get the tokens has to pay real money to get them.

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Correct.

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So he got them for free.

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Everybody else has to pay money.

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and to exacerbate the situation further,

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because he owns a plurality of the coins,

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the way that proof of stake works,

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he has control over the coin and the protocol.

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And so if he wants to throw his weight around

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and issue more tokens or whatever he wants to do,

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that's up to his discretion.

242
00:14:55,060 --> 00:14:57,900
And essentially from what I could tell on the podcast,

243
00:14:58,220 --> 00:14:59,500
his answer was, trust me, bro.

244
00:15:00,340 --> 00:15:03,720
So the question is, that's great.

245
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,700
and you're a Christian and maybe we should trust you and whatever.

246
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,140
But the question is, you know, why should we have to trust somebody

247
00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:16,040
when there are other alternatives out there where we don't have to trust anybody?

248
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,560
So, Oshawa or Tim, you want to jump in on that one?

249
00:15:19,820 --> 00:15:20,360
Give any thoughts?

250
00:15:22,860 --> 00:15:24,000
I could go quick.

251
00:15:24,580 --> 00:15:29,060
So, Jordan, we had a long time to talk about this while you were out in Portland.

252
00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:31,400
And then I was driving.

253
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:47,260
I actually dropped in for a small portion of the live interview, debate, dropped a little comment in the, I think the YouTube chat or whatever it was on, and then ran away because I had to get back to driving the family.

254
00:15:47,260 --> 00:15:54,280
um but i'll just i'll verbalize what i had said in the in the chat uh because the section i heard

255
00:15:54,280 --> 00:16:05,340
um our uh our baptist brother he he compared bitcoins right the issue of control and being

256
00:16:05,340 --> 00:16:11,500
able to manipulate the market uh because you have he made this claim about hey it's constant has

257
00:16:11,500 --> 00:16:18,320
concentrated holders and that's no different than his meme coin or perhaps other meme coins

258
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:24,200
where you have a concentrated holder and essentially say hey yes bitcoin can be manipulated

259
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:30,260
my meme coin can be manipulated same thing it's apples to apples so so trust me i'm not going to

260
00:16:30,260 --> 00:16:35,040
be doing that and essentially you don't have anything better going for you when you're in

261
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:40,900
bitcoin and i responded in the chat and i i would respond here i mean first it's so clear bitcoin

262
00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:48,060
is far more distributed when you actually look at the the facts but then also the reality of market

263
00:16:48,060 --> 00:16:57,920
size so it it was reported there's been several whales early satoshi era wallets that sold upwards

264
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:09,400
of of 80 000 bitcoin at a time and and you saw the market drop maybe three percent uh in a 24

265
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:17,840
hour period when we knew these these that many bitcoin were being sold and so compare that with

266
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:23,920
a micro capped uh small little meme coin where what is your mark like what is it a hundred thousand

267
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:28,820
dollars i mean something so small and then even the liquidity pool like what's actually the value

268
00:17:28,820 --> 00:17:34,520
in the liquidity pool which is different than the full market cap of all the tokens so you could

269
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:39,280
you could probably throw around $10,000, maybe $20,000,

270
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,080
and meaningfully move that price, either to dump it or to pump it.

271
00:17:44,620 --> 00:17:46,940
Like, someone do the math.

272
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,060
What's the value of 80,000 Bitcoin right now?

273
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:51,600
Yeah.

274
00:17:52,340 --> 00:17:55,400
I mean, whatever it is, it's a few billion dollars, something like that.

275
00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:57,480
Was it two, three, four billion?

276
00:17:57,700 --> 00:17:58,220
No, it was nine.

277
00:17:58,260 --> 00:17:58,840
Something like that?

278
00:17:59,220 --> 00:17:59,540
I think it was eight.

279
00:17:59,540 --> 00:18:00,000
Nine billion.

280
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:00,360
Yeah.

281
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:01,720
Yeah, yeah.

282
00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:07,120
So you need $9 billion to drop the price 3%.

283
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:07,900
Yeah.

284
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,160
Is that an easy to manipulate market?

285
00:18:11,420 --> 00:18:12,100
No, it's not.

286
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:12,860
Yeah.

287
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,340
Also, I would just say this is a false equivalency too

288
00:18:16,340 --> 00:18:19,180
because what we were actually talking about

289
00:18:19,180 --> 00:18:22,140
is proof of work versus proof of stake.

290
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,180
So in a proof of stake system,

291
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,000
the fact that he has that many coins,

292
00:18:26,420 --> 00:18:28,920
not only does it enable him to sort of rug people

293
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:30,560
and move the price around and pump and dump,

294
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:35,920
But the real problem is that it enables him to just change the rules of a coin whenever he wants to.

295
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:36,420
Yeah.

296
00:18:36,420 --> 00:18:50,556
So yeah I mean I guess you could say that Bitcoin also has the same problem on the pump and dump side but the scale of the market prevents that But on the proof of stake side of things Bitcoin ossified at this point Let just accept it Like the

297
00:18:50,556 --> 00:18:55,396
rules aren't changing. There's 21 million coins. Well, and I, but I would say, I think I can hear,

298
00:18:55,456 --> 00:18:59,276
I think I might be able to hear Chance from here. And so again, what I want, I want to be fair

299
00:18:59,276 --> 00:19:04,256
because again, this is a meaningful pushback. So what if Chance says, hey, but listen, when Bitcoin

300
00:19:04,256 --> 00:19:12,456
first started in 2009, it was nowhere near as well distributed as Bitcoin. There were far fewer

301
00:19:12,456 --> 00:19:18,016
people who held, if you were to factor out the percentages of who owned what at that time,

302
00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:24,676
it was far more centralized. Who is to say, who are you guys, you Bitcoin, you evil Bitcoin

303
00:19:24,676 --> 00:19:31,476
maximalists, who are you guys to say that the future of 1689 coin is not going to be likened

304
00:19:31,476 --> 00:19:34,536
to the, you know, fantastic success that Bitcoin enjoyed.

305
00:19:34,956 --> 00:19:36,676
So again, that would be the pushback

306
00:19:36,676 --> 00:19:39,656
and that would be the greater comparison to be fair.

307
00:19:40,036 --> 00:19:41,536
So sorry, I got to jump in again

308
00:19:41,536 --> 00:19:43,116
then on answering that one.

309
00:19:43,896 --> 00:19:46,056
So yes, it is true.

310
00:19:46,496 --> 00:19:49,256
I mean, again, setting aside proof of stake

311
00:19:49,256 --> 00:19:52,296
and the ability to just change the rules

312
00:19:52,296 --> 00:19:53,096
whenever you want to.

313
00:19:54,356 --> 00:19:57,216
Yes, Bitcoin started off having no value.

314
00:19:57,536 --> 00:20:00,856
And then the first people that valued it were collectors.

315
00:20:00,856 --> 00:20:02,376
It's a collectible, right?

316
00:20:02,576 --> 00:20:05,916
It's like before they were using shells as currency,

317
00:20:05,916 --> 00:20:07,076
they were collecting the shells.

318
00:20:07,776 --> 00:20:10,156
And so all meme coins,

319
00:20:10,336 --> 00:20:12,636
if they ever end up having any value,

320
00:20:13,156 --> 00:20:15,976
it starts in the collectible phase, okay?

321
00:20:16,136 --> 00:20:18,976
And who are these people that are collecting it

322
00:20:18,976 --> 00:20:20,276
and why are they collecting it?

323
00:20:20,936 --> 00:20:23,436
Well, the people that are using it as a collectible

324
00:20:23,436 --> 00:20:24,356
are speculators.

325
00:20:24,996 --> 00:20:28,976
And they're just in it to see if they can ride the pump phase

326
00:20:28,976 --> 00:20:30,316
and get out before the dump phase.

327
00:20:30,316 --> 00:20:33,676
That's literally the game plan for a meme coin.

328
00:20:33,916 --> 00:20:34,876
There is no other reason.

329
00:20:35,056 --> 00:20:36,736
Literally in the name of meme coin,

330
00:20:36,916 --> 00:20:39,276
it's like it's being honest about itself

331
00:20:39,276 --> 00:20:41,156
as just being a collectible, right?

332
00:20:41,536 --> 00:20:43,336
So then the question becomes,

333
00:20:43,856 --> 00:20:46,136
when, if ever, does the collectible

334
00:20:46,136 --> 00:20:47,916
start to become something

335
00:20:47,916 --> 00:20:49,376
that is more than the collectible?

336
00:20:49,576 --> 00:20:52,156
Like when does it actually attain

337
00:20:52,156 --> 00:20:53,496
an actual market value

338
00:20:53,496 --> 00:20:55,416
and start being used as a monetary,

339
00:20:55,716 --> 00:20:57,156
you know, instrument,

340
00:20:57,156 --> 00:21:00,976
like a medium of exchange or something like that.

341
00:21:01,816 --> 00:21:05,076
And the question I would have is,

342
00:21:05,936 --> 00:21:09,996
what is the rational explanation for why 1689

343
00:21:09,996 --> 00:21:12,616
or any other proof of stake coin

344
00:21:12,616 --> 00:21:17,356
would ever eclipse Bitcoin as that thing

345
00:21:17,356 --> 00:21:21,276
when Bitcoin's properties make it better at that use case?

346
00:21:21,656 --> 00:21:24,436
The fact that nobody can rewrite the rules

347
00:21:24,436 --> 00:21:25,696
and issue more of them

348
00:21:25,696 --> 00:21:29,536
makes it better at that use case than anything else,

349
00:21:29,636 --> 00:21:31,296
especially something like a mean coin

350
00:21:31,296 --> 00:21:32,856
where anybody can just change the rules.

351
00:21:33,436 --> 00:21:36,876
So there's no rational path or explanation

352
00:21:36,876 --> 00:21:38,076
or anything that they could say to me.

353
00:21:38,156 --> 00:21:40,896
There's no amount of people that want to buy cigars

354
00:21:40,896 --> 00:21:41,996
and whiskey or whatever,

355
00:21:42,176 --> 00:21:44,216
and no amount of transactions that occur

356
00:21:44,216 --> 00:21:45,556
because of all that desire

357
00:21:45,556 --> 00:21:52,256
that somehow allows 1689 to eclipse Bitcoin as money.

358
00:21:52,676 --> 00:21:54,096
It's never going to happen.

359
00:21:54,096 --> 00:21:55,676
And money is winner take all.

360
00:21:55,696 --> 00:22:07,216
So if you know it's going to fail and you know it's always going to stay in the collectible phase and it's always going to be getting used by speculators for pumping and dumping, what's the moral imperative here for Christians?

361
00:22:07,876 --> 00:22:25,456
Here's the question, Jim. Why does money trend to one? Because I think that's something that, again, we understand and that when you think about it, this is something that differentiates stocks from money. Can you just kind of unpack that again? Because there's people who just genuinely don't understand that. If you or Tim or somebody wants to unpack it.

362
00:22:25,696 --> 00:22:52,176
Well, I can take it or Tim, if you haven't talked, you can take it if you want to. Okay. He wants me to take it. All right. So basically what money is like a emergent phenomenon essentially. Right. And so we're all, all these human beings are out here doing trades and making transactions and we're constantly making decisions at the margin. Like, do we want to sell our time or our goods or whatever? And what do we want to sell it for?

363
00:22:52,556 --> 00:22:53,976
And so do I want to sell it for dollars?

364
00:22:54,156 --> 00:22:55,176
Do I want to sell it for gold?

365
00:22:55,276 --> 00:22:56,256
Do I want to sell it for silver?

366
00:22:56,416 --> 00:22:58,516
Do I want to sell it for Argentinian pesos?

367
00:22:59,416 --> 00:23:02,076
And there's totally valid reasons to sell it for all those things,

368
00:23:02,136 --> 00:23:03,996
depending on where you are and what's going on.

369
00:23:04,036 --> 00:23:05,716
Like if you go on a trip to Argentina,

370
00:23:06,156 --> 00:23:08,696
you need some Argentinian pesos to like pay for dinner.

371
00:23:08,916 --> 00:23:11,736
And so, yeah, you might choose to sell some of your U.S. dollars

372
00:23:11,736 --> 00:23:12,876
for Argentinian pesos,

373
00:23:12,876 --> 00:23:14,976
but you're not going to do that over the long run

374
00:23:14,976 --> 00:23:17,436
because they're debasing the Argentinian pesos.

375
00:23:17,816 --> 00:23:19,656
They're printing way more of them.

376
00:23:20,336 --> 00:23:21,856
I mean, yes, they're printing lots of dollars,

377
00:23:22,176 --> 00:23:24,496
but they're printing way more Argentinian pesos

378
00:23:24,496 --> 00:23:26,736
relative to dollars and everybody knows that.

379
00:23:26,836 --> 00:23:28,496
And you can see that in the exchange rate.

380
00:23:29,056 --> 00:23:31,656
And so you can sit there all you want to and say,

381
00:23:31,696 --> 00:23:33,176
you know what, I just love Argentina

382
00:23:33,176 --> 00:23:34,916
and I wanna support Argentina.

383
00:23:35,196 --> 00:23:37,336
And so I'm just gonna sell all my dollars

384
00:23:37,336 --> 00:23:38,556
for Argentinian pesos.

385
00:23:38,936 --> 00:23:41,476
But anybody that does that idealistically

386
00:23:41,476 --> 00:23:44,596
or even just because they're not thinking about it

387
00:23:44,596 --> 00:23:46,556
and they're not aware of the charts,

388
00:23:46,816 --> 00:23:48,136
they lose all their money.

389
00:23:48,716 --> 00:23:49,416
They get wrecked.

390
00:23:49,416 --> 00:23:54,076
And so the question is, who's left standing and what money are they holding?

391
00:23:54,676 --> 00:24:01,856
So the people that make the wrong decisions about where they want to put their money and the inferior forms of money end up not having any money.

392
00:24:02,036 --> 00:24:07,216
And the people that make the right decisions have money because it actually retains value.

393
00:24:07,716 --> 00:24:12,876
And so it trends to, it's essentially like a survival of the fittest playing out, right?

394
00:24:12,956 --> 00:24:14,596
And every single monetary transaction.

395
00:24:14,596 --> 00:24:20,716
And so whether you're cognizant of it or not, it's brutal.

396
00:24:21,056 --> 00:24:25,256
The market will absolutely destroy you if you make the wrong decisions.

397
00:24:26,736 --> 00:24:28,076
Tim, you want to add anything?

398
00:24:29,236 --> 00:24:31,776
Yeah, I didn't listen to the podcast.

399
00:24:32,376 --> 00:24:36,196
I'm poking around on the couple of public-facing websites that we have here.

400
00:24:36,616 --> 00:24:43,216
The 1689, reformcoins.com, 1689cigars, talking about what's the meme coin.

401
00:24:43,216 --> 00:24:49,496
I, you know, he's Mr. Reform, 1689, London Baptist Confession.

402
00:24:49,796 --> 00:24:50,656
I'm a PCA minister.

403
00:24:50,836 --> 00:24:54,956
We subscribe to the Westminster Confession, which the 1689 Confession came from.

404
00:24:55,516 --> 00:24:59,576
Reportedly, the Westminster Confession coin is en route.

405
00:24:59,976 --> 00:25:00,756
This has been discussed.

406
00:25:00,896 --> 00:25:02,136
Okay, never mind.

407
00:25:02,276 --> 00:25:06,016
You just papered over that little flex.

408
00:25:06,416 --> 00:25:08,736
What did you just say at the end there before Jordan said that?

409
00:25:08,816 --> 00:25:09,056
Oh, no.

410
00:25:09,136 --> 00:25:09,396
What did he say?

411
00:25:09,696 --> 00:25:11,616
I just made an objective.

412
00:25:11,616 --> 00:25:13,656
It came from our confession.

413
00:25:14,436 --> 00:25:16,696
That's, I mean, they wouldn't disagree with that.

414
00:25:17,336 --> 00:25:18,616
An upgrade, right?

415
00:25:18,956 --> 00:25:20,796
Isn't that what you're going to say, Tim, an upgrade?

416
00:25:21,096 --> 00:25:22,576
Yeah, it's like 90% the same.

417
00:25:23,276 --> 00:25:26,996
But, so, I'm not looking at the Lennon Baptist Confession,

418
00:25:26,996 --> 00:25:31,036
but I'm almost certain their catechism will say the same thing

419
00:25:31,036 --> 00:25:34,676
as Westminster Larger Catechism on the Third Commandment

420
00:25:34,676 --> 00:25:36,316
about don't use the Lord's name in vain.

421
00:25:37,416 --> 00:25:39,556
I don't think it's always wrong for Christians to,

422
00:25:39,896 --> 00:25:41,476
in business or whatever, to say, hey, I'm a Christian.

423
00:25:41,616 --> 00:25:43,616
Or, hey, Christians, you know, let's stick together.

424
00:25:43,876 --> 00:25:47,696
But you have to be extraordinarily careful.

425
00:25:48,436 --> 00:25:54,856
And the Catechism says that the Third Commandment forbids using God's name.

426
00:25:55,336 --> 00:25:56,916
And it's not just God's name.

427
00:25:56,916 --> 00:26:03,616
It's all the ways that God reveals himself and all the things that he reveals himself in.

428
00:26:03,976 --> 00:26:10,076
And especially things like the ordinances of Scripture and the sacraments and the church.

429
00:26:10,076 --> 00:26:15,436
you got to be really careful according to the catechism to not use those kinds of things in

430
00:26:15,436 --> 00:26:22,736
ways that are sinful or selfish and again i don't it doesn't seem to me that these guys are malicious

431
00:26:22,736 --> 00:26:29,016
that they're out here trying not to deceive people but you know one of the things that the catechism

432
00:26:29,016 --> 00:26:33,296
says is that you cannot use god's name or all the other ways that he reveals himself

433
00:26:33,296 --> 00:26:36,936
in ways that are unwise or foolish.

434
00:26:37,936 --> 00:26:41,776
And, you know, it looks like the entire brand is,

435
00:26:42,036 --> 00:26:43,116
look how reformed we are.

436
00:26:43,336 --> 00:26:44,116
Isn't this so great?

437
00:26:44,196 --> 00:26:45,316
We love Charles Spurgeon.

438
00:26:45,616 --> 00:26:46,756
We love reformed theology.

439
00:26:46,936 --> 00:26:47,456
Isn't this great?

440
00:26:47,636 --> 00:26:50,036
Theology, theology, theology, Bible, Bible, Bible,

441
00:26:50,616 --> 00:26:51,916
Reformation, Reformation, Reformation,

442
00:26:52,116 --> 00:26:53,336
which is like, I love the Reformation.

443
00:26:53,976 --> 00:26:56,576
But it makes me really uneasy

444
00:26:56,576 --> 00:26:58,436
that all of this stuff is getting tied up

445
00:26:58,436 --> 00:27:01,196
into a financial product.

446
00:27:01,196 --> 00:27:05,116
and it's you know i get the sense that we're kind of talking about both sides of our mouth here if

447
00:27:05,116 --> 00:27:09,576
you look on these websites you know there's a lot of cya they're over and over and over again saying

448
00:27:09,576 --> 00:27:14,416
there's no utility there's no use this is just a joke this is just for fun uh don't put any money

449
00:27:14,416 --> 00:27:20,276
into it that you can't lose it could go to nothing uh there's no real value to it you know that raises

450
00:27:20,276 --> 00:27:24,776
one big question of like well what are we doing you know isn't there enough joking around in our

451
00:27:24,776 --> 00:27:29,156
world like why do we need more ridiculous joking around about why does everything have to be a joke

452
00:27:29,156 --> 00:27:33,976
and it's like, okay, a lot of people are way too serious on their school marms, but like, really?

453
00:27:34,096 --> 00:27:39,476
I don't know. I mean, biblically speaking, money seems to be deadly serious and you're kind of

454
00:27:39,476 --> 00:27:43,896
wink, wink, nod, nod, encouraging Christians to put their money into this and saying, well,

455
00:27:43,896 --> 00:27:48,056
it's just a big giant joke. And it's like, well, why? Why should Christians be putting their money

456
00:27:48,056 --> 00:27:52,336
into a joke that you're saying has no use and no value? But then out of the other side of the mouth,

457
00:27:52,636 --> 00:27:56,416
there's occasionally some little nods to like, well, this could be a much bigger thing.

458
00:27:56,416 --> 00:28:01,016
you know this could uh this is a speculation this could really uh so there's a lot of value that

459
00:28:01,016 --> 00:28:06,476
could go into this and so there's kind of this implied uh you know this could uh become very

460
00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:10,996
valuable and you know there's a little bit of a like well maybe it'll be useful because within our

461
00:28:10,996 --> 00:28:15,856
brands you can use this token and christian brands can use it to sell buy and sell with each other

462
00:28:15,856 --> 00:28:22,096
and it's like well okay that's fine but why why do we need that you know it's like yeah if you go

463
00:28:22,096 --> 00:28:25,896
to some random little country that has some completely random little currency that nobody

464
00:28:25,896 --> 00:28:29,936
else cares about and nobody else uses. That's not a good thing that I have to use some stupid

465
00:28:29,936 --> 00:28:33,776
random little currency when I go to some random little country. It's like, this would be a lot

466
00:28:33,776 --> 00:28:37,176
better if I could just use dollars. And a lot of countries just do that because that's what people

467
00:28:37,176 --> 00:28:40,436
want and that makes more sense. It's better for them and it's better for their economy.

468
00:28:41,036 --> 00:28:46,056
So I don't know, why does your little family of brands need its own coin? I don't really get that.

469
00:28:46,256 --> 00:28:52,196
But mostly just very uncomfortable with kind of tying scripture and theology and the reformers

470
00:28:52,196 --> 00:28:53,616
and the truths of the gospel,

471
00:28:53,856 --> 00:28:56,196
solo fide and solidea gloria,

472
00:28:56,316 --> 00:28:56,756
all these things.

473
00:28:56,896 --> 00:28:59,656
It's like, why do we need to tie these things to,

474
00:29:00,296 --> 00:29:03,216
at best, something that's a complete joke

475
00:29:03,216 --> 00:29:06,316
and at worst is a speculative,

476
00:29:07,096 --> 00:29:10,916
get rich, not so quick, maybe soon type thing.

477
00:29:11,336 --> 00:29:11,856
So I don't know.

478
00:29:11,936 --> 00:29:13,676
It just gives me the heebie-jeebies,

479
00:29:13,876 --> 00:29:15,856
even if it's being done in good faith

480
00:29:15,856 --> 00:29:18,556
and not maliciously,

481
00:29:18,656 --> 00:29:21,356
but still it's like the flip side of this

482
00:29:21,356 --> 00:29:23,276
is you're asking people to put a lot of money into this

483
00:29:23,276 --> 00:29:25,476
that could be spent elsewhere or saved elsewhere.

484
00:29:26,536 --> 00:29:28,296
Yeah, I wanna really just,

485
00:29:28,416 --> 00:29:29,956
I wanna press into that point.

486
00:29:30,196 --> 00:29:32,056
Okay, so let's just say we accepted

487
00:29:32,056 --> 00:29:33,416
and we just took it face value

488
00:29:33,416 --> 00:29:35,836
that they are going to use this token

489
00:29:35,836 --> 00:29:39,396
instead of the other available mediums of exchange

490
00:29:39,396 --> 00:29:41,556
in order to purchase products.

491
00:29:41,696 --> 00:29:43,376
Okay, what would be the benefit of doing that?

492
00:29:43,716 --> 00:29:46,616
Well, the benefit would be to create demand for the token

493
00:29:46,616 --> 00:29:49,096
and then conceivably it would be,

494
00:29:49,236 --> 00:29:50,596
hey, we're gonna give you a discount

495
00:29:50,596 --> 00:29:54,476
if you pay in 60.99 coin or we're going to, you know, something along the lines.

496
00:29:54,476 --> 00:29:59,916
So then what you're saying is we are going to take less money for our goods and services

497
00:29:59,916 --> 00:30:01,816
than we would for another currency.

498
00:30:02,296 --> 00:30:03,776
So you're making less money.

499
00:30:04,996 --> 00:30:07,056
So for what purpose?

500
00:30:07,416 --> 00:30:12,836
So then that creates more value and more demand for the token, which exists.

501
00:30:13,116 --> 00:30:14,516
It's just kind of like circulate.

502
00:30:14,636 --> 00:30:15,916
It doesn't make sense.

503
00:30:16,636 --> 00:30:18,416
Jim, you're muted.

504
00:30:19,196 --> 00:30:19,556
Yeah, sorry.

505
00:30:19,556 --> 00:30:27,276
I was just going to say, it's no different than credit card companies saying, we're going to charge the vendors 3% and then we'll give you 1.5% back.

506
00:30:27,676 --> 00:30:37,296
You know, it's like you're going to buy 1689 coin and lose 3% of your purchasing power, but then we'll give you a 1.5% discount or something.

507
00:30:37,656 --> 00:30:37,816
Right.

508
00:30:38,036 --> 00:30:39,096
Because there's going to be fees.

509
00:30:39,176 --> 00:30:40,936
There's going to be all these kinds of different things.

510
00:30:40,936 --> 00:30:46,156
Like this is just if you're going to have to move in and out of these, you know, inferior other tokens and all this kind of stuff.

511
00:30:46,156 --> 00:30:59,496
I think their whole point was that in order to sort of kickstart this community, the community needs to rally around a token for some reason, right?

512
00:31:00,496 --> 00:31:11,876
Which, again, it's a little bit, it's kind of what Tim said, but it's a little bit different because I think at this point they wouldn't claim that their token is money, you know?

513
00:31:11,876 --> 00:31:22,576
And so I guess that is a question that I have is it's like, is this really the only way to kickstart such a community?

514
00:31:22,856 --> 00:31:32,256
Like if there's just people out there that just love the 1689 confession, is the only way to rally them around the 1689 confession is to create a meme coin on Solana?

515
00:31:32,556 --> 00:31:34,496
Is there no other way to accomplish that?

516
00:31:34,596 --> 00:31:35,616
Is this really the best way?

517
00:31:35,956 --> 00:31:41,036
Or if we're going to rally, even if they would say it's nothing to do with the confession, it's just our brands.

518
00:31:41,036 --> 00:31:42,476
All of our brands have 1689.

519
00:31:42,636 --> 00:31:45,056
So he's had 1689 cigars, whiskey, whatever it is.

520
00:31:45,376 --> 00:31:59,996
So is there not another way that you can create brand awareness and affinity and these kind of things other than creating a token when literally, again, the thinking, like the established record, and we should have brought up all these charts.

521
00:32:00,376 --> 00:32:03,896
The established record is that all of these things are rugfuls, all of them.

522
00:32:04,276 --> 00:32:05,056
They go to zero.

523
00:32:05,256 --> 00:32:06,056
This is what they do.

524
00:32:06,056 --> 00:32:17,396
And so what is the thing that leads you to believe that your project will end up any differently for you and especially for your customers?

525
00:32:17,576 --> 00:32:20,936
Because conceivably, again, these guys care about their customers.

526
00:32:21,056 --> 00:32:26,976
They have other legitimate businesses that provide legitimate services, including body armor, including cigars and all this kind of stuff.

527
00:32:27,396 --> 00:32:31,456
Now, again, in all of those, I mean, you're not going to create body armor if you don't care about people.

528
00:32:31,596 --> 00:32:35,316
If you create inferior body armor, you're going to find yourself getting sued and all these kind of things.

529
00:32:35,316 --> 00:32:51,376
So they are carrying out their customers. They want to provide a superior product in all of these other areas. And yet the question remains to be seen, in what universe is this meme coin a superior product in the way that you're trying to provide in all these other ways?

530
00:32:51,796 --> 00:32:54,036
And the answer I would say is it's just not.

531
00:32:54,456 --> 00:32:57,456
And so this is why I kept the very first thing I said on this debate.

532
00:32:57,716 --> 00:33:02,356
And the very first thing I said from the beginning is, you know, Chance, why did you create this thing?

533
00:33:02,456 --> 00:33:04,276
Like, why did this why does this exist?

534
00:33:04,796 --> 00:33:08,536
Because with Bitcoin, we clearly know why Bitcoin was created.

535
00:33:08,836 --> 00:33:18,316
And we can learn about the purpose for which it was created by looking at the decisions that the creators made in the either or decisions that they made.

536
00:33:18,316 --> 00:33:37,136
So the fact that Satoshi does not have the ability to unilaterally change the code by himself, the fact that he didn't issue him a pre-mine, the fact that he says the problem with the existing financial system on the Bitcoin Talk Forum sometime in February of 2009, the problem with the existing financial system is all the trust that's required to make it work.

537
00:33:37,716 --> 00:33:40,436
So we know, and there's a hundred other things we could point at,

538
00:33:40,516 --> 00:33:41,636
proof of work, all these kinds of things.

539
00:33:41,876 --> 00:33:44,536
We know what motivated the creators of Bitcoin

540
00:33:44,536 --> 00:33:47,556
because we can demonstrate, we can demonstrably see,

541
00:33:48,136 --> 00:33:50,196
you know, we see the consequences of those decisions.

542
00:33:50,736 --> 00:33:53,836
Now, Chance is now saying, hey, this was for our community.

543
00:33:53,956 --> 00:33:54,576
This is all these things.

544
00:33:54,856 --> 00:33:57,636
And yet the thing that really kind of set me off

545
00:33:57,636 --> 00:33:59,496
as somebody who cares about the name of price

546
00:33:59,496 --> 00:34:02,316
and who cares about, again, the people of God

547
00:34:02,316 --> 00:34:05,436
being potentially fleeced for money

548
00:34:05,436 --> 00:34:11,596
was this post that I can't share because the browser I'm using won't let me share it,

549
00:34:11,736 --> 00:34:16,456
but I'll just describe it to you. So it's a picture of John Calvin riding on a bull,

550
00:34:17,416 --> 00:34:23,056
staring at a fictionalized representation of an actual coin that has 1689 on it.

551
00:34:23,616 --> 00:34:27,856
And this is on July 13th, one of the earliest things that was said about this project.

552
00:34:28,276 --> 00:34:34,156
Chance says, I think we're all bullish on 1689 coin. Imagine that by next month,

553
00:34:34,156 --> 00:34:40,156
we have hit our million dollar market cap and you drop a fat offering in the church plate.

554
00:34:40,936 --> 00:34:46,256
Okay. Now, why does that matter? Why did that give me the absolute heebie-jeebies? And why

555
00:34:46,256 --> 00:34:50,436
should this set off alarm bells for everyone who cares, who's actually involved in this project?

556
00:34:50,836 --> 00:34:56,096
Because we have two things. We have Chance mentioning early in the project, before there's

557
00:34:56,096 --> 00:34:59,876
been a lot of other things publicized about, oh, utility this and utility that. We have Chance

558
00:34:59,876 --> 00:35:02,016
talking about a price target.

559
00:35:02,736 --> 00:35:04,336
Okay, so even if he's not promising

560
00:35:04,336 --> 00:35:05,076
that they're going to get there,

561
00:35:05,136 --> 00:35:06,556
which I don't think he made some sort of promise,

562
00:35:06,756 --> 00:35:08,816
he's clearly identifying a target.

563
00:35:09,256 --> 00:35:12,076
And then he's also clearly talking about an intent,

564
00:35:12,256 --> 00:35:15,556
at least on his part or conceivably somebody else

565
00:35:15,556 --> 00:35:18,536
to sell tokens at that point.

566
00:35:19,436 --> 00:35:21,596
And then I would very, I mean,

567
00:35:21,636 --> 00:35:23,156
just there's no other way to put this

568
00:35:23,156 --> 00:35:26,756
other than like, we're going to launder our feelings

569
00:35:26,756 --> 00:35:29,076
over the money we made.

570
00:35:29,076 --> 00:35:31,536
we're going to give some of that to the church. We're going to put some of that in the offering

571
00:35:31,536 --> 00:35:37,376
plate. Right. And so there's just no other, unless now, again, I will say the only charitable way,

572
00:35:37,456 --> 00:35:41,916
the only, the only alternative explanation to this is if Chance is saying that he's going to,

573
00:35:41,976 --> 00:35:44,636
or whoever, you know, if you get to this, whoever this fictionalized person is,

574
00:35:44,716 --> 00:35:50,516
they're going to donate 1689 coins to their church. Right. That's the only way around this

575
00:35:50,516 --> 00:35:56,796
that isn't actually result that doesn't require a, a, at least partial rug pull. If we, however,

576
00:35:56,796 --> 00:36:02,496
we want to define that, right? And so if that's not the case, if he was not talking about donating

577
00:36:02,496 --> 00:36:09,016
1689 coins to his church, then we have discussion of, you know, exchange of basically taking the

578
00:36:09,016 --> 00:36:13,876
profit, taking profit off the table, removing liquidity from the ecosystem that will then

579
00:36:13,876 --> 00:36:18,796
prevent other people from taking money out. Right. So let's talk about that. So it'd be one thing

580
00:36:18,796 --> 00:36:25,436
if they were taking money from pagans and giving it to the kingdom, which is a whole other can of

581
00:36:25,436 --> 00:36:32,396
worms, do the ends justify the means or whatever. But they are specifically affinity scamming

582
00:36:33,176 --> 00:36:39,856
Reformed Christians. And so if they get more Reformed Christians to get into this thing

583
00:36:39,856 --> 00:36:45,616
because of their affinity for Reformed theology and doctrine and 1689 confessions and whatever

584
00:36:45,616 --> 00:36:51,416
else, the liquidity is coming from other Christians. And if they drive the price up and you rug

585
00:36:51,416 --> 00:36:56,216
them and pull your coins out and donate a fat offering to your church, that money is literally

586
00:36:56,216 --> 00:37:00,796
coming straight out of the pocket of another Christian that isn't putting that fat offering

587
00:37:00,796 --> 00:37:07,136
into their offering plate. Now, let's clarify that as well. Let's go further. Because let's say it was

588
00:37:07,136 --> 00:37:14,356
the worst pagan you know, okay? Then you have Christians taking money from somebody who,

589
00:37:14,396 --> 00:37:18,836
basically somebody who bought into your project conceivably because you said you weren't going to

590
00:37:18,836 --> 00:37:35,693
And then taking money and let say even if the only person people affected are non in what universe is this a normal way that within business somebody who has not directly materially stolen from you in some sort of way in what universe is this something that

591
00:37:35,693 --> 00:37:40,773
Christians ought to do, right? Now, the only exception to this would be something like we saw

592
00:37:40,773 --> 00:37:47,293
with the Israelites when they took, God told them to go to the Egyptians and to their neighbors and

593
00:37:47,293 --> 00:37:51,693
to get gold and silver and all these things and take it when they were leaving. Now, why, what is

594
00:37:51,693 --> 00:37:55,793
the mitigating circumstances. Why did God tell them to do that? Oh, because the Egyptian had

595
00:37:55,793 --> 00:38:01,993
stolen their labor. It basically made them slave for over 200 years and basically stolen and not

596
00:38:01,993 --> 00:38:05,433
paid them money that they should have made otherwise. So this was actually restitution.

597
00:38:06,133 --> 00:38:10,753
This wasn't just, oh, we're just in this thing and we're just going to take money from you.

598
00:38:10,753 --> 00:38:17,553
So again, this is a clearly different situation that is not remotely comparable to what's going

599
00:38:17,553 --> 00:38:24,033
on here. All right. I want to get Ashwa and Tim's take on what I could imagine the objection or

600
00:38:24,033 --> 00:38:29,933
retort would be to this about Bitcoin. So, okay. Maybe he says, okay, I give you Bitcoin is past

601
00:38:29,933 --> 00:38:37,113
the collectible phase. Bitcoin is now store value. Bitcoin is now demonetizing real estate and gold

602
00:38:37,113 --> 00:38:42,593
and bonds and other asset classes. And so any gains that we're making in Bitcoin is really just

603
00:38:42,593 --> 00:38:47,173
wealth transfer from people that own those asset classes to people that don't own the Bitcoin

604
00:38:47,173 --> 00:38:55,093
asset class. Presumably, there's Christians among the owners of those assets, maybe even more pagans

605
00:38:55,093 --> 00:38:59,373
among the owners of those asset classes. But one way or another, you're just transferring wealth

606
00:38:59,373 --> 00:39:06,153
from them to you and then using that for a fat donation to your church. How is that any different

607
00:39:06,153 --> 00:39:14,313
or better or less or more morally objectionable? I mean, this is the great insight of Austrian

608
00:39:14,313 --> 00:39:20,773
economics where it talks about saving money is actually a good thing because when you save money

609
00:39:20,773 --> 00:39:26,553
that is where real investment comes from an investment by entrepreneurs and business owners

610
00:39:26,553 --> 00:39:31,273
in wise careful ways again nobody knows the future no entrepreneur can perfectly predict what

611
00:39:31,273 --> 00:39:36,233
is going on next week or next year that's otherwise they would be god and they wouldn't

612
00:39:36,233 --> 00:39:43,073
be an entrepreneur but when people can save money and they're not being manipulated by artificially

613
00:39:43,073 --> 00:39:48,113
low interest rates from central banking. They tend to save money and investment comes out of

614
00:39:48,113 --> 00:39:54,093
saved money. And that's how the economy grows. That's how you get more productive things going

615
00:39:54,093 --> 00:40:02,073
on and more wealth being harvested. Again, in an ultimate grand sense, yeah, you cannot add any

616
00:40:02,073 --> 00:40:08,433
more atoms to the universe that God has created. You are converting energy into different forms.

617
00:40:08,433 --> 00:40:18,793
only god can introduce new atoms new energy but um saving is a good thing because it encourages

618
00:40:18,793 --> 00:40:25,253
people to invest and so bitcoin again to get back to the point saving your money whether it's in

619
00:40:25,253 --> 00:40:31,593
bitcoin or gold or whatever it is it's not some horrible extractive parasitic thing you know this

620
00:40:31,593 --> 00:40:36,953
is the big dig against savers is all these hoarders that these scrooges out there we just need to

621
00:40:36,953 --> 00:40:40,933
somehow manipulate them into getting their money out into the economy. We need to tax it,

622
00:40:40,973 --> 00:40:44,813
or we need to inflate the money away so that people don't want to save their money anymore.

623
00:40:44,913 --> 00:40:49,573
This is the idea behind mainstream Keynesian economics is people got to run out there and

624
00:40:49,573 --> 00:40:54,433
spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, because saving is a bad thing. And so, yeah, in that sense,

625
00:40:54,513 --> 00:40:58,913
no, saving is not a bad thing, but you're actually, it's a good thing. It's a service to society. Of

626
00:40:58,913 --> 00:41:02,633
course. Can you sinfully save money? Can you sinfully hoard money? Of course you can.

627
00:41:02,633 --> 00:41:09,373
we're not saying you should be you know scrooge mcduck diving in your gold coins um you know there

628
00:41:09,373 --> 00:41:15,073
there is a sinful form of holding back resources according to proverbs uh to get the prices to go

629
00:41:15,073 --> 00:41:19,013
up so that you can you know make everybody suffer and make lots of money off of them and all of

630
00:41:19,013 --> 00:41:22,832
their misery that's not what we're talking about we're just talking about regular saving your money

631
00:41:22,832 --> 00:41:27,873
and that bitcoin is a savings technology this is the point of it is to be able to save your money

632
00:41:27,873 --> 00:41:31,813
not forever of course you know bitcoiners like to talk about never sell your bitcoin

633
00:41:31,813 --> 00:41:37,332
you know you just keep it forever and ever and ever if that's actually what bitcoiners did and

634
00:41:37,332 --> 00:41:42,013
they never actually sold their bitcoin bitcoin would have no values if no one ever actually

635
00:41:42,013 --> 00:41:47,293
sold it there'd be no point to it the point of money ultimately is to to trade it sometime into

636
00:41:47,293 --> 00:41:51,533
the future and to spend it or pass it on to your children or whatever so that they can be taken

637
00:41:51,533 --> 00:41:56,293
care of by it so anyways i would just say no and it's about saving and saving is a good thing saving

638
00:41:56,293 --> 00:42:01,793
is good for the world it's good for society it's good for the economy versus you know mean coins

639
00:42:01,793 --> 00:42:06,653
and 1689 coins saying there is no value there is no point to this there is no utility this doesn't

640
00:42:06,653 --> 00:42:11,433
have any purpose and it's like okay well what are we doing why are we talking about this then

641
00:42:11,433 --> 00:42:17,693
so do you feel like there's any special case though during the transition period where it's

642
00:42:17,693 --> 00:42:22,852
demonetizing all the other asset classes that people use for saving and then thereby doing a

643
00:42:22,852 --> 00:42:29,273
wealth transfer i mean in a in a sense i guess i mean that's that's the result but a result

644
00:42:29,273 --> 00:42:32,473
is not the same thing as an aim or a purpose.

645
00:42:34,093 --> 00:42:36,593
You know, you could say, you know,

646
00:42:36,633 --> 00:42:39,053
the same thing about somebody who, you know,

647
00:42:39,073 --> 00:42:39,873
saves in dollars.

648
00:42:39,973 --> 00:42:41,113
Aren't you doing a wealth transfer?

649
00:42:41,253 --> 00:42:41,973
Aren't you transferring wealth?

650
00:42:42,053 --> 00:42:43,593
Couldn't you have gone and spent that on tacos

651
00:42:43,593 --> 00:42:45,593
down the street and helped the taco man

652
00:42:45,593 --> 00:42:46,633
with his taco shop?

653
00:42:46,933 --> 00:42:48,533
And it's like, well, yeah,

654
00:42:48,613 --> 00:42:50,653
but that doesn't mean I'm stealing something from him

655
00:42:50,653 --> 00:42:51,713
or I'm taking something from him.

656
00:42:51,773 --> 00:42:53,053
It means in the aggregate,

657
00:42:53,553 --> 00:42:55,253
more and more people are realizing,

658
00:42:55,253 --> 00:42:56,573
wait, I don't know the future.

659
00:42:56,673 --> 00:42:58,273
The future might be pretty rocky.

660
00:42:58,373 --> 00:42:59,193
We should save some money.

661
00:42:59,273 --> 00:43:01,832
And there's a way to save money that will help me weather that storm.

662
00:43:01,933 --> 00:43:03,273
That's actually, that's a good thing.

663
00:43:03,393 --> 00:43:06,633
And again, you're saving for the sake of using it later,

664
00:43:06,693 --> 00:43:09,253
for the sake of investing later in productive ways,

665
00:43:09,293 --> 00:43:10,933
not just to save it.

666
00:43:13,013 --> 00:43:14,653
And, you know, yeah, like, okay,

667
00:43:14,733 --> 00:43:17,553
if everybody's houses are completely inflated to the max

668
00:43:17,553 --> 00:43:19,633
and the prices are artificially high,

669
00:43:20,153 --> 00:43:23,213
in some ways that's fun if you own a house and that's nice.

670
00:43:23,293 --> 00:43:24,673
Wow, look, my house, isn't this great?

671
00:43:24,673 --> 00:43:26,373
It's worth so much money.

672
00:43:26,373 --> 00:43:31,913
But actually, if it's there because it's been artificially blown up, that's not really good.

673
00:43:31,993 --> 00:43:35,073
And that's going to be really painful when it crashes and burns.

674
00:43:35,513 --> 00:43:41,933
And so in some ways, to the extent that it comes back to earth and to reality, that's a good thing.

675
00:43:42,293 --> 00:43:48,713
You know, okay, well, that makes some people sad because they have been promised for decades that real estate always goes up and this is the greatest way to save your money.

676
00:43:49,293 --> 00:43:49,993
Yeah, that's a bummer.

677
00:43:50,073 --> 00:43:52,273
But that's not the fault of people who are saving their money.

678
00:43:52,273 --> 00:43:57,493
yeah that's i think it missed it confuses the fact that the question needs to be asked is well

679
00:43:57,493 --> 00:44:02,973
why are we in a place where houses continue to increase in value and like understanding that

680
00:44:02,973 --> 00:44:08,073
dynamic where you start to see this is this isn't a good thing because of the consequences like we

681
00:44:08,073 --> 00:44:13,053
need how houses are to live in like this is why houses are good they allow people to live in them

682
00:44:13,053 --> 00:44:17,832
and the more the more difficult especially who is this hard for when houses continue to increase

683
00:44:17,832 --> 00:44:24,093
in value over time? Poor people. Okay. Christians of all, if there's one thing we're called to do is

684
00:44:24,093 --> 00:44:28,253
to care for the poor. And so this is, this is something where, again, this is just a dynamic.

685
00:44:28,253 --> 00:44:32,352
And so what Bitcoin is doing is actually bringing balance because it's, you know, this is when the

686
00:44:32,352 --> 00:44:37,993
case you can look throughout human history, where you have scarce money, you have like over the

687
00:44:37,993 --> 00:44:43,453
course of time, you have flourishing because you have this thing that is able to soak up all the,

688
00:44:43,453 --> 00:44:49,473
all the monetary, uh, you know, monetary use and the monetary desire within a, within a country or

689
00:44:49,473 --> 00:44:54,973
within a, whatever it is empire. Uh, and it allows those other things to not have to try to be

690
00:44:54,973 --> 00:44:59,033
something that they're not, you know, like when you're, if you have, if you look as a house,

691
00:44:59,093 --> 00:45:03,293
look at a house as an investment, you're asking your house to be something other than a house.

692
00:45:03,793 --> 00:45:09,933
And so one of the amazing things about money, and this is like just the design of money and what it

693
00:45:09,933 --> 00:45:17,233
does. It allows everything else to be what it is. And that's good news. That's great news for

694
00:45:17,233 --> 00:45:21,332
individuals, families, civilizations. It's a great thing.

695
00:45:21,413 --> 00:45:27,653
Oh, yeah. Jim and I, we just started recording a couple of conversations based on the one chapter

696
00:45:27,653 --> 00:45:30,513
in Holzman's book about the ethics of money production, where he talks about the kind of

697
00:45:30,513 --> 00:45:34,352
spiritual effects of inflation. And this is one of his big points. And it's really ironic. He says,

698
00:45:34,352 --> 00:45:35,953
in an inflationary world,

699
00:45:36,553 --> 00:45:38,533
the tragedy and the irony

700
00:45:38,533 --> 00:45:39,832
is that it makes people

701
00:45:39,832 --> 00:45:40,953
have to think about money

702
00:45:40,953 --> 00:45:41,633
all the time.

703
00:45:41,913 --> 00:45:42,913
You're constantly having

704
00:45:42,913 --> 00:45:43,773
to worry about your money

705
00:45:43,773 --> 00:45:44,533
and is it keeping up

706
00:45:44,533 --> 00:45:44,993
with inflation?

707
00:45:45,113 --> 00:45:45,533
Am I ahead of that?

708
00:45:46,313 --> 00:45:47,913
Everything becomes financialized.

709
00:45:48,033 --> 00:45:48,773
Am I investing

710
00:45:48,773 --> 00:45:49,352
in the right things?

711
00:45:49,413 --> 00:45:50,153
What are my stocks doing?

712
00:45:50,213 --> 00:45:50,852
What are my bonds doing?

713
00:45:50,913 --> 00:45:51,753
You're paying all these people

714
00:45:51,753 --> 00:45:52,793
to manage your money for you

715
00:45:52,793 --> 00:45:53,813
and all the fees that they take.

716
00:45:54,513 --> 00:45:54,993
And so, you know,

717
00:45:55,053 --> 00:45:56,253
it's this weird thing

718
00:45:56,253 --> 00:45:59,453
where a world

719
00:45:59,453 --> 00:46:00,933
where money is really whacked out

720
00:46:00,933 --> 00:46:04,253
incentivizes almost the need

721
00:46:04,253 --> 00:46:10,293
to become more obsessed with money than otherwise and it's like you know money shouldn't have a huge

722
00:46:10,293 --> 00:46:16,473
role in our lives and just regular boring old money that just holds its value over time actually

723
00:46:16,473 --> 00:46:22,393
you know that again you can idolize it of course sure but it like you're saying if you just let

724
00:46:22,393 --> 00:46:26,653
money be money it doesn't have to dominate your time and your energy and your emotions it's just

725
00:46:26,653 --> 00:46:34,332
there all right yeah so i think we answered this really well about the specific

726
00:46:34,332 --> 00:46:42,253
meme coin and the ethics of of a christian dude starting his own meme coin and doing the whole

727
00:46:42,253 --> 00:46:49,813
affinity scam thing i think a more even relevant question for uh christians in a broader way is

728
00:46:49,813 --> 00:46:58,773
just well is it right and acceptable for me to uh speculate in a meme coin right so i can look at

729
00:46:58,773 --> 00:47:06,153
i have this crypto price app and i can scroll through and there's so many cryptos right it's

730
00:47:06,153 --> 00:47:10,433
just going to keep going the whole podcast would need to be scrolling through the price of cryptos

731
00:47:10,433 --> 00:47:17,173
it's just going to keep going so um so i want to throw that question out for us i know we've

732
00:47:17,173 --> 00:47:26,033
There's this Christian Bitcoiner chat group that a couple of you gentlemen have started and been involved in.

733
00:47:26,033 --> 00:47:39,852
And there's been some heated discussions about whether or not someone can choose to invest their hard-earned money in some mean coins and some getting into doo-doo coins, as we would say politely.

734
00:47:40,832 --> 00:47:43,053
And is that acceptable for a Christian?

735
00:47:43,053 --> 00:47:48,852
And I'll throw out one perspective, and I'd love to get your guys' thoughts on this.

736
00:47:48,913 --> 00:47:50,473
And is it also a matter of conscience?

737
00:47:51,093 --> 00:48:00,473
Well, I feel just fine investing in Dogecoin and a little Solana, and I'm watching the trend line, and I'm a day trader, and I feel comfortable.

738
00:48:00,993 --> 00:48:02,813
Is it a conscious issue?

739
00:48:03,073 --> 00:48:06,373
Or is there, would you, like, even tell me the pastor?

740
00:48:06,893 --> 00:48:09,053
Is this a different question than King Christian's Gamble?

741
00:48:09,253 --> 00:48:10,673
Can you play blackjack in Las Vegas?

742
00:48:10,873 --> 00:48:11,313
Is this different?

743
00:48:11,313 --> 00:48:12,852
So, good question.

744
00:48:12,852 --> 00:48:13,913
and I'm gonna, that's where I'm gonna,

745
00:48:13,993 --> 00:48:15,433
that's actually where I'm gonna take us

746
00:48:15,433 --> 00:48:17,493
because this is then, I mean,

747
00:48:17,533 --> 00:48:19,173
and one of the guys on the chat was like,

748
00:48:19,253 --> 00:48:21,753
hey, do I need to be church disciplined by my elders

749
00:48:21,753 --> 00:48:23,473
for this activity?

750
00:48:23,473 --> 00:48:25,852
Because if you're making such a strong moral claim,

751
00:48:26,352 --> 00:48:27,993
like take it to my presbytery.

752
00:48:28,753 --> 00:48:30,332
So, but here's where I'll throw it out there.

753
00:48:30,533 --> 00:48:34,793
There was a years ago, there's this pastor,

754
00:48:35,013 --> 00:48:36,253
his name's John Piper, he's the Baptist,

755
00:48:36,393 --> 00:48:37,553
you guys probably never heard of him.

756
00:48:39,253 --> 00:48:40,713
But he wrote an article.

757
00:48:40,713 --> 00:48:41,193
Donation?

758
00:48:44,013 --> 00:48:47,453
We don't call them denominations, Jeff, or associations.

759
00:48:48,573 --> 00:48:50,352
But anyway, this pastor, John Piper.

760
00:48:50,393 --> 00:48:54,493
You need to move your hands more if you're going to invoke John Piper.

761
00:48:54,613 --> 00:48:55,832
Please move your hands more.

762
00:48:58,773 --> 00:48:59,253
Okay.

763
00:48:59,733 --> 00:49:01,893
So he wrote this article.

764
00:49:02,553 --> 00:49:03,653
You can Google it.

765
00:49:03,693 --> 00:49:05,413
Look it up on their website.

766
00:49:05,533 --> 00:49:06,993
They have a ministry called Desiring God.

767
00:49:06,993 --> 00:49:15,852
um and but he says don't play the powerball for me was the i think the the name of the article

768
00:49:15,852 --> 00:49:26,653
and he argues essentially saying playing the lottery lottery is is utterly despicable and it's

769
00:49:26,653 --> 00:49:34,613
it's taxation without representation it it takes the most advantage of the most most vulnerable

770
00:49:34,613 --> 00:49:43,893
communities, right? It's mostly the poor, it's the single moms, it's this get-rich-quick scheme

771
00:49:43,893 --> 00:49:50,053
that is for people that don't understand math. And it just has all the arguments for why

772
00:49:50,053 --> 00:49:57,453
both governments should not have lotteries available to their citizens, it is unethical,

773
00:49:57,453 --> 00:50:02,813
and why Christians should not play the lottery. And then he goes so far as to say,

774
00:50:02,813 --> 00:50:09,813
if you win the powerball and you drop going back to our buddy and his fat tithe and you drop

775
00:50:09,813 --> 00:50:17,713
like your million dollar tithe into my into the coffers of the church i will not accept it

776
00:50:17,713 --> 00:50:26,273
go get your mammon out of here i want nothing to do with your powerball money repent you sinner

777
00:50:26,273 --> 00:50:32,533
right so john piper does this um and as far as i know they he they stuck to his guns and they

778
00:50:32,533 --> 00:50:42,173
their church would refuse to accept knowingly lottery revenue and funds.

779
00:50:42,773 --> 00:50:44,233
Is this the same?

780
00:50:44,973 --> 00:50:49,493
So churches actually say, if you made money on meme coins, we will not accept it.

781
00:50:51,073 --> 00:50:52,793
Or big coins for that matter.

782
00:50:54,673 --> 00:50:55,933
It's a meaningful question.

783
00:50:55,933 --> 00:50:59,793
Now, I don't think John Piper ever practiced church discipline on someone

784
00:50:59,793 --> 00:51:02,533
because they found out they played the Powerball?

785
00:51:02,933 --> 00:51:03,473
I don't know.

786
00:51:03,753 --> 00:51:05,133
I would guess they didn't.

787
00:51:05,773 --> 00:51:07,233
I don't think he took it to that level.

788
00:51:07,773 --> 00:51:10,253
But they did take it to a level we won't accept it as an offering.

789
00:51:10,633 --> 00:51:11,153
So there you go.

790
00:51:11,573 --> 00:51:13,352
Should Christians get into meme coins?

791
00:51:13,613 --> 00:51:14,253
Is it ethical?

792
00:51:15,253 --> 00:51:19,293
Should churches accept the profits from meme coinery?

793
00:51:20,313 --> 00:51:21,373
Tim, go.

794
00:51:22,193 --> 00:51:25,633
Well, I think the funky thing with the meme coin thing

795
00:51:25,633 --> 00:51:28,993
is that a lot of them will say,

796
00:51:28,993 --> 00:51:30,913
kind of like Mr. 1689 coin.

797
00:51:31,433 --> 00:51:32,773
Oh, this isn't about spec.

798
00:51:32,873 --> 00:51:33,893
This isn't about making money.

799
00:51:33,973 --> 00:51:34,773
This is just for fun.

800
00:51:34,852 --> 00:51:35,513
It's just a joke.

801
00:51:35,773 --> 00:51:35,953
Joke.

802
00:51:36,053 --> 00:51:36,713
It's just, you know,

803
00:51:36,733 --> 00:51:38,093
this kind of goofy collectible thing.

804
00:51:38,773 --> 00:51:40,332
And so it's like, okay, even,

805
00:51:41,073 --> 00:51:42,313
you know, you can look at,

806
00:51:44,173 --> 00:51:46,113
it's like on the ground,

807
00:51:46,753 --> 00:51:48,073
this in general,

808
00:51:48,633 --> 00:51:50,273
the meme coin phenomenon is

809
00:51:50,273 --> 00:51:51,973
apparently a lot of people

810
00:51:51,973 --> 00:51:53,293
who are desperate to make a lot of money

811
00:51:53,293 --> 00:51:54,493
quickly and easily.

812
00:51:54,913 --> 00:51:55,733
And so it's like,

813
00:51:55,753 --> 00:51:56,893
even if you're sitting there saying,

814
00:51:56,993 --> 00:51:58,393
no, no, no, we don't believe in that.

815
00:51:58,393 --> 00:52:02,713
don't do that it's like okay well you have kind of waded into the waters of this world where that

816
00:52:02,713 --> 00:52:07,153
this is kind of what this is all about this is this is the world you're in now but if we're going

817
00:52:07,153 --> 00:52:11,773
to kind of rule that out it's like what if you just stick to oh it's just for fun it's just a

818
00:52:11,773 --> 00:52:17,233
joke it's just kind of a way to flex and be like yeah i like reformed theology this is so cool

819
00:52:17,233 --> 00:52:23,173
is it different than than somebody who let's say makes a lot of money off of pokemon cards

820
00:52:23,173 --> 00:52:27,753
say someone who buys and sells pokemon cards and they oh yeah you know and it's like you might look

821
00:52:27,753 --> 00:52:32,453
at him and you say you know i really don't get it but they're pieces of paper with cartoon animals

822
00:52:32,453 --> 00:52:38,033
printed on them there's no real utility to this it's a game uh they're collectibles are christians

823
00:52:38,033 --> 00:52:45,233
allowed to make a lot of money off of collectible playing cards like well i guess so i don't i don't

824
00:52:45,233 --> 00:52:48,433
really get it and i don't know why people spend so much money on it and i'm not sure that it's

825
00:52:48,433 --> 00:52:53,713
very wise for them to do so but yeah i don't know i think it's hard because you kind of especially

826
00:52:53,713 --> 00:52:55,013
when you get into kind of Christian things,

827
00:52:55,053 --> 00:52:58,613
it's like no Christian is going to come around

828
00:52:58,613 --> 00:53:00,413
and say, I'm here trying to scam you.

829
00:53:00,793 --> 00:53:02,993
I'm here promising you that you should get rich quick.

830
00:53:03,653 --> 00:53:05,573
And, but you know, there's kind of this wink

831
00:53:05,573 --> 00:53:08,213
and this nod thing of like, well, maybe, you know,

832
00:53:08,293 --> 00:53:09,373
let's see what happens.

833
00:53:09,573 --> 00:53:12,352
And I don't know, in some ways it kind of reminds you

834
00:53:12,352 --> 00:53:14,293
of some of the prosperity gospel type stuff

835
00:53:14,293 --> 00:53:16,713
where it's not that they're explicitly coming out

836
00:53:16,713 --> 00:53:19,852
and saying, hey, we are appealing to your base instincts

837
00:53:19,852 --> 00:53:21,713
of wanting to get rich really quickly.

838
00:53:21,713 --> 00:53:27,933
they wouldn't say that but it is like hey uh you know don't you want god to bless you god will god

839
00:53:27,933 --> 00:53:30,773
will bless you and wouldn't it be great if god blessed you wouldn't that show the world how

840
00:53:30,773 --> 00:53:34,793
awesome we all are if god bless you so so put some money in the plate and god's gonna bless you

841
00:53:34,793 --> 00:53:39,713
or maybe god will bless you so i don't know can i i don't know if i'd make a black and white you

842
00:53:39,713 --> 00:53:45,113
could never ever touch these things but i would want to be like as your pastor like why why are

843
00:53:45,113 --> 00:53:50,193
you doing this yeah and i and i think that's i think that's kind of where this comes out of that

844
00:53:50,193 --> 00:53:55,893
that kind of gets at a place that I wanted to get to, which is I'm just, I'm reading Ephesians 5,

845
00:53:56,013 --> 00:54:03,013
17. Uh, it says, do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. And so the, the, the

846
00:54:03,013 --> 00:54:09,852
attitude that, I mean, American Christians, and then a lot of Western Christians, and frankly,

847
00:54:09,933 --> 00:54:14,213
a lot of just kids, like, I think it's a, it's like a genuinely immature thing. And I'm like

848
00:54:14,213 --> 00:54:17,573
talking about our culture. We generally have a pretty immature culture in a lot of ways.

849
00:54:17,573 --> 00:54:25,073
like we tend to ask the question, can I do this? Like, can I do this? And just asking,

850
00:54:25,193 --> 00:54:30,073
basically looking for exceptions. We tend to look for exceptions to the rule. Like,

851
00:54:30,113 --> 00:54:34,593
can I do this? Is there some reason? Well, this isn't clearly stated as a sin. It's like, okay,

852
00:54:34,593 --> 00:54:42,273
sure. But is this wise? Like that seems to be like the proactive, like the propulsion of

853
00:54:42,273 --> 00:54:48,293
scripture, the thing that God wants us to be striving to do is to be wise and take action that

854
00:54:48,293 --> 00:54:55,713
is more likely to result in the good of our neighbor and the lack of harm being done to our

855
00:54:55,713 --> 00:55:00,273
names and the good of our family. Like he wants us, God has created a world that's governed by

856
00:55:00,273 --> 00:55:05,533
this principle of sowing and reaping where actions have consequences and they're designed to be

857
00:55:05,533 --> 00:55:11,993
pretty predictable in most cases. And so like if we look out, like this is why it just doesn't

858
00:55:11,993 --> 00:55:20,193
seem like a wise exercise to me whatsoever to look at an entire sea full of, you know,

859
00:55:20,293 --> 00:55:25,953
meme coin projects that have wrought death and devastation on families, on marriages,

860
00:55:26,253 --> 00:55:31,793
on the overwhelming majority by necessity who participate in them and then say to yourself,

861
00:55:31,973 --> 00:55:37,753
but we're going to be the exception, right? Well, yeah. And even if you can do it wisely,

862
00:55:37,753 --> 00:55:41,013
what kind of example are you setting for people that can't?

863
00:55:41,013 --> 00:55:41,213
Yeah.

864
00:55:41,753 --> 00:55:42,013
Yes.

865
00:55:42,793 --> 00:55:44,913
And so, and I want to, oh, go ahead, Tim.

866
00:55:45,053 --> 00:55:45,313
You're good.

867
00:55:46,013 --> 00:55:48,113
Sorry, I was going to add something to finish your thought.

868
00:55:49,133 --> 00:55:53,293
No, my, the other thing that I was going to say related to this was it kind of gets at

869
00:55:53,293 --> 00:55:57,313
one of the other objections that he had, that Chance had, and that some of these other guys

870
00:55:57,313 --> 00:56:02,593
in the, in the chat as well, they said, but guys, you don't understand, even though we've

871
00:56:02,593 --> 00:56:03,852
been in this thing for forever.

872
00:56:03,852 --> 00:56:08,852
Like you guys don't understand our community is better.

873
00:56:08,913 --> 00:56:20,369
We not going to rug pull We wouldn do this Okay Trust me bro Yeah trust me bro Yes exactly And now and again to Chance credit and I this is genuine I genuinely give

874
00:56:20,369 --> 00:56:26,249
him credit. He basically said on the podcast, now again, I didn't get this verified, but again,

875
00:56:26,289 --> 00:56:31,649
I don't have reason to think that Chance is lying about this. He said that he has entrusted the vast

876
00:56:31,649 --> 00:56:38,549
majority of his tokens to one of his pastors. So now, so he doesn't have control over being able

877
00:56:38,549 --> 00:56:45,209
to rug. So it would require his pastor, again, to be able to rug. So again, I'm saying that's

878
00:56:45,209 --> 00:56:50,129
a great decision. Like, wow. Like that is- Except that it's still just some other random person that

879
00:56:50,129 --> 00:56:54,709
I have to trust, bro. Exactly. So again, everybody else is forced to trust them. But again, this is

880
00:56:54,709 --> 00:57:02,929
where it got even worse, which was what we found out based on, you know, what's the moonshot. And

881
00:57:02,929 --> 00:57:09,109
the way that this thing works is even if every single person who currently holds 1689 coin does

882
00:57:09,109 --> 00:57:14,449
everything right is completely above board they never rug because of the nature of these things

883
00:57:14,449 --> 00:57:20,449
some other bad actor could come into this project and because of the liquidity they could put in real

884
00:57:20,449 --> 00:57:25,469
money drive the coin i mean it would it would i mean i watched somebody i looked at the thing that

885
00:57:25,469 --> 00:57:31,389
somebody took out like 300 from 1689 coin and it meaningfully like it moved the price down so if

886
00:57:31,389 --> 00:57:36,249
somebody were to march in there with 10,000, 20,000, whatever it is, they would, the price

887
00:57:36,249 --> 00:57:41,829
would skyrocket and then they could exit with the amount of liquidity, with all of the liquidity

888
00:57:41,829 --> 00:57:46,889
that's in there. And so then the only way for all the other token holders to be able to get any of

889
00:57:46,889 --> 00:57:53,289
their actual money, like their, their money out would be to input more capital, more in this case

890
00:57:53,289 --> 00:57:59,409
soul, because it's built on Solana. So there is meaningful, there's a meaningful real way that

891
00:57:59,409 --> 00:58:05,309
all of them could absolutely get rugged, even if they do everything right, because of, again,

892
00:58:05,509 --> 00:58:11,089
the actual way that the project is structured. And so when I look at this, I can't help but

893
00:58:11,089 --> 00:58:17,429
thinking about Luke 14. I look at Luke 14, and I go to verse 28 through 31.

894
00:58:18,089 --> 00:58:23,109
For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost,

895
00:58:23,449 --> 00:58:27,609
whether he has enough to complete it. Otherwise, when he's laid a foundation and is not able to

896
00:58:27,609 --> 00:58:32,189
finish, all who see begin to mock him saying this man began to build and was not able to finish

897
00:58:32,189 --> 00:58:37,089
or what King going out to encounter another King in war will not sit down first and deliberate

898
00:58:37,089 --> 00:58:43,429
whether he's able with 10,000 to meet him who comes against him with 20,000. And so I cannot

899
00:58:43,429 --> 00:58:48,729
help, but thinking about this is, you know, Chance again, talked about the fact that he chose Moonshot

900
00:58:48,729 --> 00:58:53,869
as the place to start this project because it was quote, the easiest place to start a project.

901
00:58:53,869 --> 00:58:59,749
and so again i understand that on one level like if you're not a programmer then this is you know

902
00:58:59,749 --> 00:59:03,569
and in his case actually i think he he actually has some more programming experience but he chose

903
00:59:03,569 --> 00:59:09,749
this because it's the easiest place you don't necessarily want like i don't want the easiest

904
00:59:09,749 --> 00:59:15,329
uh car engine the easy the the easiest created car engine or any of these kind of things there's

905
00:59:15,329 --> 00:59:20,469
certain things where you don't just want ease and in you know cheapness we don't want that and so to

906
00:59:20,469 --> 00:59:32,249
But for that to have been the case, it seems like a lack of foresight, especially when we come now behind it and see all of the ways in which this could go horribly wrong, completely independent of these guys doing anything untoward.

907
00:59:32,929 --> 00:59:40,529
Well, there was nothing stopping him from cloning the Bitcoin source code off of GitHub and spending up 1689 coin as a Bitcoin clone.

908
00:59:40,649 --> 00:59:40,889
Sure.

909
00:59:40,949 --> 00:59:44,609
Other than his lack of development skills and expediency.

910
00:59:45,449 --> 00:59:47,189
Eventually, if he didn't have it or not.

911
00:59:47,249 --> 00:59:47,929
Yeah, we just don't know.

912
00:59:47,929 --> 00:59:48,729
So I don't want to speculate.

913
00:59:48,949 --> 00:59:50,389
But yeah, he didn't choose to do that.

914
00:59:50,469 --> 00:59:51,709
What were you going to say, Tim?

915
00:59:52,269 --> 01:00:02,249
Oh, some of this is reminding me of an article from a year or two ago by Aaron Wren, one of these handful of guys who I rip a lot off from because they're really smart and I'm not.

916
01:00:02,609 --> 01:00:15,009
But he had this article called Reject Vice where he basically says the default policy should be no porn, no pot, no gambling, no video games, no tattoos, and no profanity.

917
01:00:15,949 --> 01:00:18,509
And he says, you know, right here, he says,

918
01:00:18,569 --> 01:00:19,529
I'm a critic of Mark Driscoll,

919
01:00:19,589 --> 01:00:20,689
but one of his best lines was,

920
01:00:20,769 --> 01:00:22,489
some things aren't sinful, they're just dumb.

921
01:00:23,109 --> 01:00:24,889
Or as someone more respectable put it,

922
01:00:25,149 --> 01:00:26,209
referring to the Apostle Paul,

923
01:00:26,629 --> 01:00:28,849
all things are lawful, but not all things are profitable.

924
01:00:29,169 --> 01:00:31,069
We should avoid unprofitable activities.

925
01:00:31,269 --> 01:00:32,489
Vice falls into that category.

926
01:00:33,189 --> 01:00:34,229
And so he just kind of goes

927
01:00:34,229 --> 01:00:35,549
and he just kind of talks about these things

928
01:00:35,549 --> 01:00:38,069
that used to be kind of gross and shady socially

929
01:00:38,069 --> 01:00:39,029
and they used to be looked down upon,

930
01:00:39,029 --> 01:00:41,169
but now they're kind of widely accepted

931
01:00:41,169 --> 01:00:42,849
as wonderful, great things.

932
01:00:43,289 --> 01:00:44,949
And, you know, in a lot of ways,

933
01:00:44,949 --> 01:00:51,109
He says these are explicitly encouraged by the government, things like the lottery, but even gambling becoming more and more common now.

934
01:00:51,629 --> 01:00:52,449
And so, I don't know.

935
01:00:52,509 --> 01:00:58,409
It's just, you know, a lot of people, maybe especially in the reformed world where you like to kind of say, you know, oh, we have freedom.

936
01:00:58,649 --> 01:01:05,349
You know, I can smoke cigars and I can drink whiskey and I can gamble and I can dance and I can do all these things and it's fine.

937
01:01:05,449 --> 01:01:10,529
It's like, okay, you know, yeah, maybe it's lawful for you to do these things.

938
01:01:10,629 --> 01:01:14,069
Maybe there's nothing, you know, God has not forbid it.

939
01:01:14,069 --> 01:01:18,029
And yeah, of course, there's a huge danger of pharisaism and legalism and all these things.

940
01:01:18,129 --> 01:01:20,589
But it's like, a lot of these things are just kind of dumb.

941
01:01:20,909 --> 01:01:21,809
I'm like, why would you do that?

942
01:01:21,849 --> 01:01:24,749
And why would you want to live in a world where lots of people are doing more and more of these things?

943
01:01:24,889 --> 01:01:29,449
Like, do you really, would you want your kids to have lots of friends who are super into meme coins?

944
01:01:29,609 --> 01:01:31,069
Like, I wouldn't.

945
01:01:31,069 --> 01:01:38,789
Like, if my son was super into this and he's spending, you know, lots of time every day when he's 25 thinking about meme coins and that's what he's doing with his money, that would be really discouraging.

946
01:01:39,009 --> 01:01:40,629
I'd be like, something went wrong here.

947
01:01:40,629 --> 01:01:47,189
and so it's like why as a christian would you kind of glom on to part of this and this kind of

948
01:01:47,189 --> 01:01:52,329
vice adjacent kind of world of something that's not good for most people and it's bad for them

949
01:01:52,329 --> 01:01:57,849
kind of like you're saying jim you know it's like okay maybe you yourself you know are fine with this

950
01:01:57,849 --> 01:02:01,689
and you don't have to obsess over it but it's like there's certainly going to be a lot of people in

951
01:02:01,689 --> 01:02:06,689
this world who come across it who are that way and you're if nothing else you're kind of implicitly

952
01:02:06,689 --> 01:02:09,569
legitimizing the rest of it that's out there.

953
01:02:10,729 --> 01:02:12,349
What's his argument against tattoos?

954
01:02:14,349 --> 01:02:14,789
Shoot.

955
01:02:15,129 --> 01:02:16,069
Let me see here.

956
01:02:17,889 --> 01:02:19,129
I was going to ask,

957
01:02:19,189 --> 01:02:20,829
do you think stonks are part of this?

958
01:02:20,969 --> 01:02:21,549
Like GameStop?

959
01:02:22,509 --> 01:02:24,149
They're just no different than meme coins?

960
01:02:27,329 --> 01:02:28,249
Yeah, I would.

961
01:02:28,369 --> 01:02:29,929
I mean, in that case, it's just impotent.

962
01:02:30,169 --> 01:02:33,009
Like, we're trying to do this on Robinhood,

963
01:02:33,089 --> 01:02:34,569
which is a totally captured platform.

964
01:02:34,569 --> 01:02:38,729
So like just the lack of wisdom and skill involved in understanding what you're trying to do.

965
01:02:38,809 --> 01:02:45,029
Like it's one thing to have, again, this is where, this is where I'm saying, like, I don't think that these guys had the worst motives.

966
01:02:45,189 --> 01:02:48,989
I don't think that like their motives were like, I'm twisting my mustache, going to rug all these people.

967
01:02:49,269 --> 01:02:55,629
But like, because of the lack of skill and actual understanding of the game that they're trying to play, they ended up in a bad way.

968
01:02:55,629 --> 01:03:02,969
Well, I guess what I'm saying is like, in the case of GameStop, it's like the little guy is trying to stick it to the big, you know, hedge funds and stuff.

969
01:03:02,969 --> 01:03:04,489
so that's like a good narrative or whatever,

970
01:03:04,649 --> 01:03:06,549
but is there any real categorical difference

971
01:03:06,549 --> 01:03:08,109
between stonks and meme coins?

972
01:03:09,109 --> 01:03:09,269
Yeah.

973
01:03:12,409 --> 01:03:13,529
A stonk is a,

974
01:03:13,529 --> 01:03:15,089
it got hijacked into a meme coin.

975
01:03:18,469 --> 01:03:20,529
You're saying is there is no difference?

976
01:03:20,629 --> 01:03:21,849
Like stonks are meme coins?

977
01:03:22,669 --> 01:03:23,609
I mean, I think, yeah,

978
01:03:23,609 --> 01:03:25,109
they were treated as meme coins,

979
01:03:25,149 --> 01:03:28,789
even obviously this was an actual equity

980
01:03:28,789 --> 01:03:29,849
of an actual company,

981
01:03:29,949 --> 01:03:31,609
but people used it that way.

982
01:03:31,609 --> 01:03:34,469
so do you think Aaron Rune would probably add it to his list

983
01:03:34,469 --> 01:03:36,149
what meme coins

984
01:03:36,149 --> 01:03:37,629
probably stonks

985
01:03:37,629 --> 01:03:39,789
probably stonks and meme coins

986
01:03:39,789 --> 01:03:41,609
yeah I don't know I just think

987
01:03:41,609 --> 01:03:44,369
it's kind of like his argument against tattoos

988
01:03:44,369 --> 01:03:45,589
I don't know if you guys are just looking at that

989
01:03:45,589 --> 01:03:46,989
this kind of

990
01:03:46,989 --> 01:03:50,389
again obviously not everybody

991
01:03:50,389 --> 01:03:52,569
who has a tattoo is sinning

992
01:03:52,569 --> 01:03:54,569
but a lot of these

993
01:03:54,569 --> 01:03:55,889
things are

994
01:03:55,889 --> 01:03:58,389
closely associated with

995
01:03:58,389 --> 01:04:00,589
a kind of nihilism of just kind of like

996
01:04:00,589 --> 01:04:04,769
yeah you know everything's casual and kind of whatever and like just throw a bunch of your money

997
01:04:04,769 --> 01:04:08,169
into these things and see what happens and it's you know kind of like what i was saying before

998
01:04:08,169 --> 01:04:11,849
about like why does everything have to be a joke why does everything have to be like not serious at

999
01:04:11,849 --> 01:04:19,169
all and like it's just like i don't know it's that some things are very serious and and they

1000
01:04:19,169 --> 01:04:23,669
last a long time and they're really important and they should be treated meaningfully you shouldn't

1001
01:04:23,669 --> 01:04:28,009
show up at church in your pajamas unless it's like okay you're you're so desperately poor that

1002
01:04:28,009 --> 01:04:32,469
you have no clothes but pajamas it's like okay fine come to church in your pajamas that's great

1003
01:04:32,469 --> 01:04:37,909
but it's just like i don't know yeah well i think like the idea behind stonks where it's like we're

1004
01:04:37,909 --> 01:04:42,329
going to use the system against you because you've rigged the system kind of smells like what tucker

1005
01:04:42,329 --> 01:04:47,549
was talking about jordan and i were discussing on a podcast where it's like well we don't have

1006
01:04:47,549 --> 01:04:52,409
debtors prison so let's all just not pay our credit cards off one month and see what they're

1007
01:04:52,409 --> 01:04:57,249
going to do about it. It's kind of like, I mean, is that really the right way to reform

1008
01:04:57,249 --> 01:05:05,429
the corrupt and unjust systems? I do think, so again, I would, in 99% of the cases, I would,

1009
01:05:05,429 --> 01:05:09,769
I would agree with you again. And this is the reason why I would push back against there is,

1010
01:05:09,869 --> 01:05:17,089
there is the 1% where you do see in the scriptures, these extreme cases where normal morality goes,

1011
01:05:17,089 --> 01:05:23,569
It is not practiced because of the flagrancy of the immorality on the other part.

1012
01:05:23,689 --> 01:05:24,229
So you see-

1013
01:05:24,229 --> 01:05:27,409
Yeah, they're going to steal from the Egyptians because it's a reparation.

1014
01:05:27,489 --> 01:05:27,709
Correct.

1015
01:05:27,929 --> 01:05:30,649
Or we see JL lying to Sisera.

1016
01:05:31,209 --> 01:05:32,649
She gives him hot milk.

1017
01:05:32,749 --> 01:05:33,829
He falls asleep and she kills him.

1018
01:05:34,209 --> 01:05:38,229
There are edge cases where you see this type of thing happening.

1019
01:05:38,729 --> 01:05:40,469
Again, so I'm not ruling out.

1020
01:05:40,469 --> 01:05:57,989
Again, I think Bitcoin in a real sense is it's providing the same effect that some of this GameStop stuff was intended to have, but it doesn't require any of the – it doesn't require the same type of debauchery in playing rigged games as those things do.

1021
01:05:58,069 --> 01:06:04,029
Again, taking part on the Robinhood app, which they can just stop trading if things are going against them.

1022
01:06:04,029 --> 01:06:07,149
So, yeah, I think broadly, yes.

1023
01:06:07,149 --> 01:06:12,549
I think broadly, I would agree, you know, including stocks in there, stocks in there is, you know, would make sense.

1024
01:06:13,549 --> 01:06:25,989
Yeah. So I think, I mean, I haven't read this whole article, but just skimming through the part about tattoos and then generally about the danger of Pharisaism and legalism.

1025
01:06:25,989 --> 01:06:35,549
and i i think that is a real issue and and like around tattoos i saw a certain kind of

1026
01:06:36,269 --> 01:06:44,029
uh kind of like uh correlation confusing correlation and causation and because uh tattoos

1027
01:06:44,029 --> 01:06:53,209
tends to be correlated with low economic status and and uh lawless behavior they just don't you

1028
01:06:53,209 --> 01:06:58,429
get one if you really need one fine if it's with the marines but you know you're gonna look like a

1029
01:06:58,429 --> 01:07:10,409
thug so don't look like a thug i mean so i would rather and this goes back even piper and uh so he

1030
01:07:10,409 --> 01:07:22,829
was a teetoler um he uh he wouldn't use tobacco products um and and it's like that that issue

1031
01:07:22,829 --> 01:07:25,269
I think there's a real danger there.

1032
01:07:25,389 --> 01:07:29,449
I remember something that I think B.A. Carson's view was really helpful.

1033
01:07:29,909 --> 01:07:33,309
Another godly Baptist brother that you guys maybe haven't heard of.

1034
01:07:35,789 --> 01:07:39,309
So he chose to be a teetoler.

1035
01:07:41,069 --> 01:07:45,389
But if someone's going to say it's a sin to drink alcohol,

1036
01:07:46,109 --> 01:07:47,709
he'll say, well, pass me the rum.

1037
01:07:48,529 --> 01:07:49,309
Bottoms up.

1038
01:07:50,769 --> 01:07:51,289
Right?

1039
01:07:51,289 --> 01:08:03,809
Because it's far more dangerous to create an extra biblical requirement on the people of God than to use alcohol in moderation.

1040
01:08:05,329 --> 01:08:07,769
I'll just get a spider tattoo on your forehead.

1041
01:08:10,589 --> 01:08:12,049
Stamp it on there!

1042
01:08:12,489 --> 01:08:13,869
Okay, here we go.

1043
01:08:13,869 --> 01:08:22,509
so yeah so i would rather not put requirements on christian consciences about

1044
01:08:22,509 --> 01:08:29,249
oh well bitcoin's acceptable but anything and and maybe ethereum depending on whether it's a

1045
01:08:29,249 --> 01:08:33,269
security or not i'm gonna get off his microphone what are we talking about the rest of them

1046
01:08:33,269 --> 01:08:38,869
no that's a sip i can squall out you over there who's not like that i'm slaying in what in the

1047
01:08:38,869 --> 01:08:44,769
world i may or may not be upstairs from jimmy gandrew right now floors up

1048
01:08:44,769 --> 01:08:55,929
i think christian freedom is the biblical view but we need to be able to to warn about foolishness

1049
01:08:55,929 --> 01:09:03,589
warn about the scams behind the scenes that 90 of the people don't know are going on

1050
01:09:03,589 --> 01:09:09,489
like what like jordan and i did that like we did the deep dive on moonshot and we're like holy cow

1051
01:09:09,489 --> 01:09:18,549
this is a total scam this is how like no so there's a lot of ignorance is what i'm saying and

1052
01:09:18,549 --> 01:09:24,109
we need to warn people of the ignorance and and yet their conscience may not be bound because

1053
01:09:24,109 --> 01:09:28,269
they don't have the knowledge we can give them the knowledge and maybe you're listening to this

1054
01:09:28,269 --> 01:09:33,049
podcast right now you're like i had no idea and maybe now you're not free to engage in this folly

1055
01:09:33,049 --> 01:09:35,209
because you have some more information.

1056
01:09:36,409 --> 01:09:37,789
Yeah, and this is where, again,

1057
01:09:37,929 --> 01:09:39,869
understanding how the definition

1058
01:09:39,869 --> 01:09:41,369
and the understanding of freedom,

1059
01:09:41,549 --> 01:09:42,269
quote unquote freedom,

1060
01:09:42,369 --> 01:09:44,309
has shifted across the generations

1061
01:09:44,309 --> 01:09:45,449
is really important

1062
01:09:45,449 --> 01:09:47,769
because it's become,

1063
01:09:47,869 --> 01:09:49,409
I mean, freedom is not license.

1064
01:09:50,349 --> 01:09:52,489
The scriptures are super clear about that.

1065
01:09:52,889 --> 01:09:54,089
And just like there's a difference

1066
01:09:54,089 --> 01:09:56,769
between freedom from and freedom to.

1067
01:09:57,849 --> 01:09:59,569
We should not just be like,

1068
01:09:59,929 --> 01:10:02,309
I have the freedom to pee my pants right now.

1069
01:10:02,309 --> 01:10:02,589
Okay.

1070
01:10:03,049 --> 01:10:05,369
But how does that help me?

1071
01:10:06,069 --> 01:10:07,249
And so there's nothing.

1072
01:10:07,469 --> 01:10:15,229
Freedom is pursuing that which actually leads to human flourishing, that which leads towards the good of others and all these different things.

1073
01:10:15,429 --> 01:10:17,929
Freedom is not just I do whatever I want to.

1074
01:10:18,009 --> 01:10:18,729
That's autonomy.

1075
01:10:19,429 --> 01:10:22,489
And the scriptures actually speak out against license.

1076
01:10:22,669 --> 01:10:25,069
It speaks out against these kind of things in no uncertain terms.

1077
01:10:26,509 --> 01:10:30,669
The one other thing that we did not talk about that I do want to mention.

1078
01:10:31,469 --> 01:10:33,229
We better end with this.

1079
01:10:33,389 --> 01:10:34,449
Yeah, we can end with this.

1080
01:10:34,869 --> 01:10:42,629
And the reason I want to mention it is just because I think it really is an important thing to talk about, especially for other projects as well.

1081
01:10:42,629 --> 01:10:52,209
Because, again, like we said, these guys fully would say these guys are better than most of the other people who are involved in MeanCoin projects, without a doubt.

1082
01:10:53,349 --> 01:10:54,029
Trump coin, baby.

1083
01:10:54,849 --> 01:10:55,289
What did you say?

1084
01:10:55,949 --> 01:10:56,489
Trump coin.

1085
01:10:56,709 --> 01:10:57,329
Trump coin.

1086
01:10:57,489 --> 01:10:57,989
Oh, gosh.

1087
01:10:58,229 --> 01:10:58,409
Okay.

1088
01:10:58,409 --> 01:11:03,389
So the issue, I mean, at the same time, there are legal dangers.

1089
01:11:03,809 --> 01:11:07,509
There are legal dangers if you are involved in some of these kind of projects.

1090
01:11:07,629 --> 01:11:08,849
There can be legal dangers.

1091
01:11:09,169 --> 01:11:16,829
And one of these dangers is the danger of being involved in peddling something that is an illegal security, an unregistered security.

1092
01:11:17,469 --> 01:11:25,549
And so the way that the SEC decides what counts as a security is something – they use something called the Howey test.

1093
01:11:26,009 --> 01:11:27,469
And so you could Google this right now.

1094
01:11:27,469 --> 01:11:35,129
it's H-O-W-E-Y. It's four components to what, basically to the Howey test. And so I reached

1095
01:11:35,129 --> 01:11:40,029
out to Chance. I keep calling him Chase. I reached out to Chance before the debate.

1096
01:11:40,929 --> 01:11:46,869
And so the reason I'm mentioning this now is because of the insinuation that I only made

1097
01:11:46,869 --> 01:11:52,989
emotional arguments in this debate. So I reached out to Chance the morning of our debate because

1098
01:11:52,989 --> 01:11:57,269
I hadn't thought about this until the Saturday that I was with Oshawa and we were talking about

1099
01:11:57,269 --> 01:12:02,169
this. And it just, we just realized that I plugged in some of the screenshots from the project,

1100
01:12:02,169 --> 01:12:07,129
put them in there and just asked chat GPT. I was like, Hey, does this seem like it's violated the

1101
01:12:07,129 --> 01:12:12,689
Howey test? And it was in like no uncertain terms. So like, yes, this is dangerous. No, again,

1102
01:12:13,009 --> 01:12:16,329
they could go to, they had, I reached out the chance. I had this conversation with him. He said,

1103
01:12:16,369 --> 01:12:19,929
Hey, we have, we have a lawyer who's like looking at some of these things and he doesn't think we

1104
01:12:19,929 --> 01:12:23,829
violated anything. And so again, I just said, Hey, that's fine. I just wanted to let you know,

1105
01:12:23,829 --> 01:12:26,409
Like this is something that could result in prison time.

1106
01:12:26,509 --> 01:12:29,729
This could, in the worst cases, this could result in fines.

1107
01:12:29,789 --> 01:12:35,449
This could result in lawsuits from people who potentially lose money based on this project.

1108
01:12:35,589 --> 01:12:41,329
And so this is something I just basically said, hey, like I don't want to just expose this publicly.

1109
01:12:41,409 --> 01:12:45,209
This would be some gotcha thing on our debate.

1110
01:12:45,589 --> 01:12:50,089
I genuinely care about you and I care about the name of Christ and all these things.

1111
01:12:50,089 --> 01:12:53,429
And I just want you to be aware of these potential things.

1112
01:12:53,609 --> 01:12:57,009
If you weren't, I will say he wasn't aware of what the Howey test was.

1113
01:12:57,469 --> 01:13:01,849
He understood the danger of the need to be careful about what was being said.

1114
01:13:02,149 --> 01:13:07,549
But again, I just want to put that out there for maybe some of the people in Chance's orbit

1115
01:13:07,549 --> 01:13:13,049
who are tempted to just think I'm some, again, some coward because I'm not willing to dump

1116
01:13:13,049 --> 01:13:17,249
money into this project or just some person who really just wants to rain on Chance's parade

1117
01:13:17,249 --> 01:13:19,509
and rain on the parade of all these people.

1118
01:13:20,089 --> 01:13:25,149
I'll just say also, if you haven't watched the debate yet, I can save you a bunch of time.

1119
01:13:25,849 --> 01:13:30,869
Per Chance's own words, at the very end of the video, don't buy 1689 coin.

1120
01:13:31,089 --> 01:13:32,789
That's literally what he said.

1121
01:13:33,569 --> 01:13:34,729
So, yeah.

1122
01:13:36,169 --> 01:13:37,549
I don't know what to say.

1123
01:13:37,629 --> 01:13:43,089
If he can say that in good conscience and he's not actually joking, why are we even having this conversation?

1124
01:13:43,089 --> 01:13:45,929
And again, I will clarify, that is part of their marketing scheme.

1125
01:13:45,929 --> 01:13:51,569
It's kind of like this, you know, tongue in cheek thing of just like saying, hey, don't buy this.

1126
01:13:51,689 --> 01:13:52,309
Don't buy this.

1127
01:13:52,529 --> 01:13:55,109
As if if it's a joke, then they're not serious people.

1128
01:13:55,349 --> 01:13:57,409
If it's not a joke, then they're being disingenuous.

1129
01:13:57,689 --> 01:13:57,809
Yeah.

1130
01:13:58,069 --> 01:13:59,789
And so, again, that is the danger.

1131
01:14:00,489 --> 01:14:02,709
Again, I just want to throw that out there.

1132
01:14:02,809 --> 01:14:03,969
Again, you can go watch the debate.

1133
01:14:04,189 --> 01:14:09,709
Decide for yourself if you agree with Chance that I only made emotional arguments.

1134
01:14:10,689 --> 01:14:12,489
I don't think you're going to find that that's the case.

1135
01:14:12,489 --> 01:14:14,449
the one that I could remember

1136
01:14:14,449 --> 01:14:15,229
was that I just said,

1137
01:14:15,289 --> 01:14:15,549
hey Chance,

1138
01:14:15,609 --> 01:14:16,229
I care about you

1139
01:14:16,229 --> 01:14:16,809
and your reputation.

1140
01:14:17,149 --> 01:14:18,449
I care about the name of Christ

1141
01:14:18,449 --> 01:14:20,409
and the potential harm to you

1142
01:14:20,409 --> 01:14:21,149
and these other brothers

1143
01:14:21,149 --> 01:14:22,189
who are brothers.

1144
01:14:23,229 --> 01:14:23,829
I just,

1145
01:14:23,949 --> 01:14:24,449
I care about you.

1146
01:14:24,489 --> 01:14:25,809
So if that's an emotional argument,

1147
01:14:26,229 --> 01:14:27,149
then sure,

1148
01:14:27,329 --> 01:14:28,209
that's an emotional argument.

1149
01:14:28,649 --> 01:14:29,209
You know,

1150
01:14:29,269 --> 01:14:30,369
Jordan has been known

1151
01:14:30,369 --> 01:14:31,369
to shed a tear

1152
01:14:31,369 --> 01:14:34,269
during his TGFB presentations.

1153
01:14:34,609 --> 01:14:35,469
So I don't know

1154
01:14:35,469 --> 01:14:36,469
if you started crying,

1155
01:14:36,629 --> 01:14:37,349
you were weeping over

1156
01:14:37,349 --> 01:14:38,229
your lost brother.

1157
01:14:39,409 --> 01:14:40,449
And he's not a lost brother.

1158
01:14:40,629 --> 01:14:41,309
I wouldn't say he's lost.

1159
01:14:41,329 --> 01:14:41,769
I don't think,

1160
01:14:41,769 --> 01:14:44,589
God included that functionality on my model.

1161
01:14:47,529 --> 01:14:50,889
So anyhow, again, you can go find out more information

1162
01:14:50,889 --> 01:14:52,029
about all these things.

1163
01:14:52,229 --> 01:14:52,849
We are happy.

1164
01:14:53,009 --> 01:14:54,049
Again, if you have questions,

1165
01:14:54,289 --> 01:14:57,409
if you push back, reach out to us.

1166
01:14:57,589 --> 01:14:59,749
You can reach out to us via the Thank God for Bitcoin

1167
01:14:59,905 --> 01:15:03,585
Hang out for BTC Twitter account or just individually.

1168
01:15:03,825 --> 01:15:05,005
You can find us on there.

1169
01:15:05,265 --> 01:15:06,585
I believe all of us have our Twitter handles.

1170
01:15:07,305 --> 01:15:10,385
Again, Jim, Ash, Tim, appreciate you guys.

1171
01:15:10,485 --> 01:15:15,165
And we will see you next time on episode 25 of To The Unknown Pod.

1172
01:15:15,665 --> 01:15:16,105
Thank you.

1173
01:15:16,125 --> 01:15:16,905
We'll see you on the next episode.