1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:12,060
Scott Yenner, welcome to the Thank God for Bitcoin podcast.

2
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,640
Thanks for having me on. Glad to be here.

3
00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,620
All right. This is a very different episode than the episodes we normally record.

4
00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:23,880
This is episode 71, The Case for Banning Porn.

5
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,400
Probably not the thing that you're expecting to see when you tune into a Bitcoin podcast.

6
00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:36,000
And yet we live to surprise. So, Scott, why don't you introduce yourself for maybe people who aren't familiar with your work and then we'll go from there.

7
00:00:36,420 --> 00:00:43,420
Yeah, I'm a professor at Boise State University and I have been a fellow at the Claremont Institute.

8
00:00:43,580 --> 00:00:51,800
I just began a job at the Heritage Foundation where I'm the director of the Simon Center for American Principles and Politics.

9
00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,580
and I've written two books on the family,

10
00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,700
one around 2010 called Family Politics,

11
00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,720
the Idea of Marriage and Modern Political Thought.

12
00:01:00,580 --> 00:01:02,700
And then the other around 2020,

13
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:04,180
can't remember the exact year,

14
00:01:04,960 --> 00:01:06,860
called The Recovery of Family Life,

15
00:01:06,940 --> 00:01:09,440
Exposing the Limits of Modern Ideologies.

16
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,200
Written a bunch of white papers too in between

17
00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,180
for the Heritage Foundation,

18
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,140
one of which bears entirely on this topic,

19
00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:21,760
which is called A Postmortem on the Sexual Revolution.

20
00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,940
what the deregulation of obscenity has wrought.

21
00:01:26,100 --> 00:01:28,540
I think that's the title, but something like that, if it's not that.

22
00:01:29,220 --> 00:01:33,380
And all things will be approximate in our podcast today, I promise.

23
00:01:34,020 --> 00:01:34,620
Love it.

24
00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,600
So here's kind of where this is coming from.

25
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,080
So one of the things that we found out in the last six years that I've been in Bitcoin,

26
00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:44,800
it's gone down all kinds of crazy rabbit holes that I never anticipated.

27
00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,580
But one of the things that quickly comes up when you start thinking about money,

28
00:01:48,580 --> 00:01:52,520
just from a more kind of general basis.

29
00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:53,640
And then also as a Christian,

30
00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,420
you start to quickly get involved in politics

31
00:01:55,420 --> 00:01:56,440
and you start to think about

32
00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:57,700
what is the role of government?

33
00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,720
What role should government have in money?

34
00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,020
And then you start even going more philosophical,

35
00:02:03,180 --> 00:02:03,900
going even deeper,

36
00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,280
you get the nature of what does it mean to be human?

37
00:02:07,100 --> 00:02:09,660
And so we start starting to dig into all these questions.

38
00:02:09,900 --> 00:02:11,060
And so then there's other things

39
00:02:11,060 --> 00:02:12,860
that are tangentially related to that,

40
00:02:12,940 --> 00:02:15,180
including obscenity loss.

41
00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:17,600
And so I would love to kind of get

42
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:22,240
your, just your background and why is this important to you? I would imagine it has something

43
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,680
to do with the fact that you're a Christian and have five kids, but where, where did your level

44
00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:31,680
of interest come with, you know, this, this topic? And then kind of, you can give a little bit of

45
00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:38,560
unpacking what you're doing about this topic. Yeah. All right. Well, that's big. Um, so,

46
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:43,900
you know, I'm a political philosophy guy. And, uh, one of the things that people in political

47
00:02:43,900 --> 00:02:51,780
philosophy are concerned with is human nature. And conservatives often, I should say, and that

48
00:02:51,780 --> 00:02:57,640
led me to the family, like studying the family, because the family is a cultural institution

49
00:02:57,640 --> 00:03:05,060
that deals with human nature. It kind of registers human nature. And so when you have the decline of

50
00:03:05,060 --> 00:03:12,180
the family, what you're having is natural things like natural sexual desire, sex differences,

51
00:03:12,180 --> 00:03:19,420
which appear to be natural. The desire to live beyond yourself through having kids,

52
00:03:20,020 --> 00:03:28,280
it bends these natural desires in various ways. And so I don't think you can get rid of nature,

53
00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:35,100
but you can register nature in different ways. And so one of the ways we register

54
00:03:35,100 --> 00:03:42,260
nature is through the nuclear family. And sex differences, which are natural, are registered

55
00:03:42,260 --> 00:03:48,540
in the nuclear family, where men play a role of provider, protector, and leader of the house.

56
00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:56,140
And women play the role of nurturer and beautifier of the house. And it suits their nature in many

57
00:03:56,140 --> 00:04:02,920
cases. And we also like sex as part of marriage. That's what makes kids. So it's a place where we

58
00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:09,100
register sexual desire so that it, you know, is pointed to one woman and it's pointed toward

59
00:04:09,100 --> 00:04:16,220
procreation. So like nature can't be stamped out, but it registers in different ways. And what the

60
00:04:16,220 --> 00:04:21,340
decline in the family has meant is that nature is registering in a lot of different ways.

61
00:04:21,980 --> 00:04:26,480
And many of them are undermining the cultural institution of the family.

62
00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:45,640
And I think there are other great examples of this, but no better example probably than the existence of free, widely available internet pornography on phones and all of this stuff, which has a way of changing and warping nature and pointing people away from family life.

63
00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:56,700
So pornography is just like part of this broader effort to try to understand, I would say, the relationship between nature and the family.

64
00:04:57,260 --> 00:05:09,160
And so I got interested in this. And there was an old approach to pornography that really existed in the United States until the late 1950s.

65
00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:19,040
And that old approach was like a very broad definition of obscenity could be blocked by any local or national government.

66
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:38,260
The standard was that if a work tended to deprave or corrupt those whose minds are open to immoral influences, that the government can step in and limit the freedom of the person producing that or distributing it.

67
00:05:38,260 --> 00:05:58,760
And that meant that if there was just one little part of books that would make it difficult for the very vulnerable people in your society, that is, let's say, those subject to addiction, then it could be banned as obscene material.

68
00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:09,620
And this meant that certain books, you know, famously Lady Chatterley's Lover and other books like that were banned and the national government got involved.

69
00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:17,820
They had various acts that also the Comstock Acts that then forced a national ban on obscenity.

70
00:06:17,820 --> 00:06:29,700
And that was done in order to shape sexual desire towards the procreative family and toward monogamous sexual relations.

71
00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:38,940
But in the late 50s and really throughout our whole lives as a result, there's been an entirely different standard applied.

72
00:06:39,620 --> 00:06:44,520
It's not the most vulnerable, but it's rather just applying community standards.

73
00:06:45,020 --> 00:06:49,000
It's not just a little bit of a book, but it's the work taken as a whole.

74
00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:59,640
And it's not like has a subject of immoral influences, but rather is it must be with utterly without redeeming social and cultural value.

75
00:07:00,820 --> 00:07:09,580
So what has happened is obscenity has become increasingly defined narrowly so that only a few things are obscene or almost nothing is obscene.

76
00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:14,040
And those decisions came out really in 1957.

77
00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:21,260
There was a case called Roth versus United States, which helped limit the national laws that regulated pornography.

78
00:07:21,660 --> 00:07:29,180
And then there was a case in the early 70s, 73, I think, Miller versus California, which made it difficult for states to regulate pornography.

79
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,160
Now, this is before the Internet was there.

80
00:07:33,420 --> 00:07:39,720
So cities did a lot of things to, I would say, shame and dishonor those who dealt with obscenity.

81
00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:45,040
They would, they would like deny them zoning ordinances, make them go on the outside of town.

82
00:07:45,540 --> 00:07:47,780
Truck stops, I think were famous for this.

83
00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:54,380
And so it still wasn't widely available, I would say.

84
00:07:54,760 --> 00:08:08,840
But the, the world that we live in now is this very narrow definition of obscenity where almost nothing is obscenity meets the easy access to obscenity and pornography on the internet.

85
00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,680
with, you know, I would say this begins in around 2000, maybe a little earlier.

86
00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,840
And so, like, that's where we are.

87
00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:29,480
We're dealing with unbelievable access and very ill-suited laws to restrict that access

88
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,260
or laws that basically grant the access, I guess I should say it like that.

89
00:08:33,260 --> 00:08:41,960
and, uh, and, but it's different for, so that's like one like track of, uh, of obscenity law and

90
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:48,580
experience. Okay. There's nothing parallel in this in human history, like the access and the law

91
00:08:48,580 --> 00:08:54,840
meeting one another. There's nothing like this in human history. Uh, at the same time, uh, kids are

92
00:08:54,840 --> 00:09:01,520
treated differently under the law. Um, and this is a very interesting part of it. There was a case

93
00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:07,900
in 1968, all numbers are approximate, but I think that's right, called Ginsburg versus New York,

94
00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:13,420
where they basically said obscenity as to minors will have the old standard, the Hickland standard,

95
00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:19,140
as it was called, where you have to show that the work, parts of the work would tend to deprave and

96
00:09:19,140 --> 00:09:25,780
corrupt those whose minds were open to immoral influences. And then when the internet came about,

97
00:09:25,780 --> 00:09:29,600
There were attempts to apply that same standard to the Internet.

98
00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:42,880
And the first age verification laws were in 1996, where it was required that Internet sites have parental notification on them.

99
00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:49,320
And those laws were all thrown out by the Supreme Court as abridging the freedom of adults too much.

100
00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:57,640
and uh that case was reinforced in 2004 i think in another case where the congress tried to

101
00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:04,840
restructure its law but that changed uh this year in a texas case paxton versus uh texas

102
00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,960
or taxed versus united states no no free speech coalition versus paxton i knew i'd get it

103
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:18,240
and uh where age verification stuff is now legal to use and the judgment here is that we just know

104
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:23,840
more about the effects of pornography now than we did in 1957 and than we did in 1996.

105
00:10:24,500 --> 00:10:31,400
And the harm that it does to kids is more like scientifically verifiable, if you want

106
00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:37,160
to think of it like that, so that the Texas legislature and the legislature of any state

107
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:43,280
that is imposing age verification laws pass muster because they have a real like solid

108
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,140
basis, more than a rational basis.

109
00:10:45,140 --> 00:10:52,160
They need more than a rational basis, but they're not facing what is called strict scrutiny, where the law would be thrown out almost immediately.

110
00:10:52,380 --> 00:10:55,200
So there's a legal context for all of this stuff.

111
00:10:56,780 --> 00:11:00,800
And so now we have these two tracks, basically.

112
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:10,720
Unlimited access to obscene material, because the definition basically makes nothing obscene for adults, but age verification for kids.

113
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:17,560
yeah this is i mean i don't know if i mean ben you live in texas and i don't know if you tim

114
00:11:17,560 --> 00:11:22,320
you've worked in texas but i mean the law basically says that you can you can visit some

115
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:28,140
of these the largest pornography websites uh but you have to like give them your id or something

116
00:11:28,140 --> 00:11:32,940
like that in order to prove that you're of age uh these can be routed around though if you use

117
00:11:32,940 --> 00:11:38,960
things like vpns so there there are like relatively trivial ways that even the people can use technology

118
00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:40,340
to kind of get around these rules.

119
00:11:41,300 --> 00:11:43,780
So I would love to just kind of go back a little bit

120
00:11:43,780 --> 00:11:46,120
because I think the, I mean,

121
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,160
my experience of thinking about this

122
00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,660
and even just a challenge as a Christian who's a father

123
00:11:50,660 --> 00:11:52,920
and like, I would love just for porn to be gone,

124
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,500
but I feel like we've all kind of grown up,

125
00:11:55,580 --> 00:11:57,920
people who are probably 40, 40 is,

126
00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,000
40-ish, somewhere around there and younger.

127
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,100
We grew up in this era where

128
00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:05,220
even though the libertarians have had

129
00:12:05,220 --> 00:12:06,820
like zero political success,

130
00:12:06,820 --> 00:12:25,480
I think the greatest libertarian success is probably Ron Paul. And, you know, he never, he made, he was a congressman, but didn't really get very far. But we still have a very libertine, libertarian view of freedom and of, again, as a result, speech and some of these other things.

131
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:35,600
So where do you trace this from if you're going to argue that the founders would have been mortified with this kind of understanding of freedom and this understanding of free speech?

132
00:12:35,780 --> 00:12:40,780
Could you kind of go back to maybe the founding and kind of unpack for us how they thought about some of this stuff?

133
00:12:41,420 --> 00:12:54,280
Yeah, well, I mean, I think the founding is very comfortable with the Hicklin standard being imposed because there's a recognition that sexual desire has to be shaped in civilized ways.

134
00:12:54,280 --> 00:13:00,740
like they always rejected, for instance, polygamy because polygamy, it was thought would lead to a

135
00:13:00,740 --> 00:13:05,900
kind of tyrannical exercise of male authority and families that was inconsistent with Republican

136
00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:14,340
government and inimical, I think, to equality within marriage. So they always opposed polygamy.

137
00:13:14,540 --> 00:13:18,360
They always put restrictions on divorce because they wanted to tighten the marital bond.

138
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:25,600
and in some states you couldn't get a divorce. So it was not easy to get divorced. So they always

139
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:32,000
were interested in shaping the institution of marriage toward monogamy. There were laws at the

140
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:38,580
time of the founding where if you committed adultery, you committed a crime. Premarital sex,

141
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:45,600
fornication could be a crime. And all of this is an attempt to reinforce the idea that sex,

142
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,420
marriage, procreation, and parenthood are all connected and into an institution

143
00:13:50,420 --> 00:13:55,720
that is supposed to inform and be consistent with Republican government.

144
00:13:56,420 --> 00:14:01,460
And that's the approach they take, you know, I think to every family issue.

145
00:14:02,820 --> 00:14:11,240
And that persisted, you know, for a long time until I would say, you know, post,

146
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:19,300
in the beginning of 20th century, but especially after the 50s, that hegemonic understanding of it

147
00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:27,380
was challenged by two principal ideologies. One of them is what you were, I think, referring to a

148
00:14:27,380 --> 00:14:34,520
kind of libertarian approach to the First Amendment. And then the other is sexual liberation theory.

149
00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:41,980
and it's a question which one is the straw stirring the drink but i think a careful analysis and not

150
00:14:41,980 --> 00:14:47,240
even that careful of analysis frankly would show that the sexual liberation argument has been the

151
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:53,940
thing that's been stirring the drink because they are about a certain ethic that they want to promote

152
00:14:53,940 --> 00:15:00,720
by making pornography widely available in the country and preventing localities from regulating

153
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:08,960
it. They're about promoting a particular ethos. So the sexual liberationists thought marriage was

154
00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:14,500
way too strong in America and that the problem with America was that people were sexually repressed.

155
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:20,980
The man in the gray flannel suit was sexually repressed and therefore unhappy and subject to

156
00:15:20,980 --> 00:15:35,359
becoming a fascist If we didn allow him to express himself sexually at his will he was likely to invade Poland or commit murder or something like that

157
00:15:35,359 --> 00:15:40,679
So the best way to save people and to save Western civilization was to liberate people sexually.

158
00:15:40,859 --> 00:15:52,739
And they knew, like they intended, this to have a loosening effect on family and marriage, to point women away from motherhood, to point men away from responsible fatherhood.

159
00:15:52,739 --> 00:15:58,379
and to make people just a lot more interested in sex, because the more sex, the less repression,

160
00:15:58,999 --> 00:16:07,259
the less repression, the freer the country. So the sexual liberationists used libertarian

161
00:16:07,259 --> 00:16:13,739
arguments like, who are you to say what obscenity is? And isn't this country about securing

162
00:16:13,739 --> 00:16:19,079
individual rights? They used those arguments, which Americans were kind of willing to entertain

163
00:16:19,079 --> 00:16:24,579
in order to get their ends achieved through political reform.

164
00:16:25,319 --> 00:16:28,359
So there's two groups of people who think pornography

165
00:16:28,359 --> 00:16:31,299
will lead to the loosening of family attachments,

166
00:16:31,999 --> 00:16:34,419
conservatives and liberationists.

167
00:16:34,539 --> 00:16:38,419
They agree on what the effects of pornography are going to be.

168
00:16:38,879 --> 00:16:43,599
And one of them thinks it's a disaster for family life,

169
00:16:43,599 --> 00:16:44,419
and that's bad.

170
00:16:44,599 --> 00:16:47,139
The other thinks that that's going to loosen up family life,

171
00:16:47,199 --> 00:16:47,759
and that's good.

172
00:16:47,759 --> 00:16:54,219
but they all look those two sides like we agree with our enemies on what pornography is going to

173
00:16:54,219 --> 00:17:00,699
do and uh there's just a total difference on the evaluation they think if you free people up from

174
00:17:00,699 --> 00:17:07,739
repression as it's called for that by them they'll make people happy we think actual self-control is

175
00:17:07,739 --> 00:17:12,719
necessary for happiness and if you don't have it you're not going to be happy i think the numbers

176
00:17:12,719 --> 00:17:15,239
are totally on our side on this.

177
00:17:16,059 --> 00:17:18,659
And, you know, 60 years or more than that,

178
00:17:18,739 --> 00:17:21,479
but 60 years of deregulation of obscenity

179
00:17:21,479 --> 00:17:26,299
has left the country barren, unhappy, and divided.

180
00:17:28,459 --> 00:17:30,339
Scott, could you, for the sake of the people listening,

181
00:17:30,439 --> 00:17:32,619
I mean, the four of us may know a lot of this,

182
00:17:32,739 --> 00:17:34,159
but could you just lay out,

183
00:17:34,259 --> 00:17:35,299
for someone who may not be aware of this,

184
00:17:35,339 --> 00:17:37,119
some of the things we have learned

185
00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,039
about how pornography affects people

186
00:17:39,039 --> 00:17:40,979
and causes this damage, and especially children?

187
00:17:40,979 --> 00:17:51,859
Yeah. So one of the things that that I want to I want to get away from is only being concerned about the effects on children.

188
00:17:52,819 --> 00:18:01,139
And because I think in a way we've won that debate, the age verification laws are being passed there.

189
00:18:01,799 --> 00:18:04,459
They're passing muster in the Supreme Court.

190
00:18:04,459 --> 00:18:12,459
Um, and so I do want to focus in on adults. Like what, what do we know about pornography use and,

191
00:18:12,459 --> 00:18:18,159
uh, and its effect on men, its effect on marriage and its effect on women. I think we have a good

192
00:18:18,159 --> 00:18:23,319
understanding. I just had a research assistant the other day put together like a little, uh, page

193
00:18:23,319 --> 00:18:29,839
and she found 34 studies. She only had a day, uh, on the effects of pornography. And I'm going to

194
00:18:29,839 --> 00:18:36,159
get into them in a second here. But the one thing we have to realize is that this is not going to be

195
00:18:36,159 --> 00:18:46,519
like some guy goes up and gives a speech and says, we need to kill all the people who are dealing

196
00:18:46,519 --> 00:18:51,539
in corn and raising prices and starving the people. And then everyone goes and kills the

197
00:18:51,539 --> 00:18:56,899
corn dealers. It's not going to be like a one-to-one relationship between the speech

198
00:18:56,899 --> 00:18:59,459
and the effects.

199
00:19:00,019 --> 00:19:01,159
There's going to be kind of like

200
00:19:01,159 --> 00:19:04,199
a slow accumulation of adverse effects

201
00:19:04,199 --> 00:19:06,319
that when you add them all up,

202
00:19:06,399 --> 00:19:07,879
show that there's a serious problem.

203
00:19:08,599 --> 00:19:09,079
Okay.

204
00:19:09,999 --> 00:19:12,579
So, and I want to say one more thing about this

205
00:19:12,579 --> 00:19:14,719
because the conservatives who criticized

206
00:19:14,719 --> 00:19:18,899
pornography in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s,

207
00:19:18,919 --> 00:19:21,299
the last great effort to criticize pornography

208
00:19:21,299 --> 00:19:24,899
was done in the 86 by Attorney General Ed Meese.

209
00:19:24,899 --> 00:19:32,739
like they didn't get it right. They're not really describing the reality of our pornified

210
00:19:32,739 --> 00:19:38,279
internet world. Uh, they were really worried about juvenile delinquency and, uh, lack of

211
00:19:38,279 --> 00:19:45,539
achievement in school and, uh, and like other crimes like that ends up not actually being the

212
00:19:45,539 --> 00:19:56,139
case. Internet pornography has strange effects, but well-studied. And all right, so let's get

213
00:19:56,139 --> 00:20:04,179
into them. States are cast with the police powers to guard the health, safety, and morals of the

214
00:20:04,179 --> 00:20:10,039
people. And I think we can talk about it in those categories, the health, the safety, and the morals

215
00:20:10,039 --> 00:20:18,539
of people. So first of all, health. There's good studies on this stuff. You know, about 15 to 20%

216
00:20:18,539 --> 00:20:24,039
of people who watch internet pornography are going to become addicted to it. And the effects on the

217
00:20:24,039 --> 00:20:31,199
body are not insubstantial. There's new diseases were coming about where young men are having

218
00:20:31,199 --> 00:20:37,019
difficult times standing at attention, if you understand what I mean, as a result of watching

219
00:20:37,019 --> 00:20:45,659
lots of pornography so that dysfunctions in that score, erectile dysfunctions, are now more common

220
00:20:45,659 --> 00:20:52,139
among 30-year-olds who watch a lot of porn than 60-year-olds who watch none. And I'm closer to

221
00:20:52,139 --> 00:21:00,939
the end of that number, the 60 number, than I am to 30. And so, and you know, there's other things

222
00:21:00,939 --> 00:21:06,159
that we can say in this, but it doesn't tend to make people abusive. It actually tends to make

223
00:21:06,159 --> 00:21:13,879
people depressed and withdrawn and antisocial or asocial. So that it's not that they become

224
00:21:13,879 --> 00:21:20,839
juvenile delinquents, but rather they become people without ambition, without hope. And

225
00:21:20,839 --> 00:21:29,239
the Greek word is ascedia, which is a kind of sloth that they fall into. And so the tendency

226
00:21:29,239 --> 00:21:38,439
is to affect the mind away from action and efficacy and toward kind of total retreat into

227
00:21:38,439 --> 00:21:46,039
self so that they're not interested in girls or people. And the psychological condition,

228
00:21:46,139 --> 00:21:50,899
if you think about it, reinforces the physical condition that they can't, you know, stand at

229
00:21:50,899 --> 00:21:58,699
attention. So it's a family show, right? So I say stand at attention. And

230
00:21:58,699 --> 00:22:02,359
And this stuff is being increasingly well-documented.

231
00:22:02,859 --> 00:22:14,919
The way that sites are designed on the internet is designed to addict people and to draw them further and further into more and more perverse experiences and pornography on the internet.

232
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:27,099
So just simple man-woman stuff is just a gateway to lots of different things on the internet.

233
00:22:28,699 --> 00:22:43,899
So, and then, and people act on the basis of that. Men who watch pornography are three times more likely to have same-sex relations, way more, they're not as, they're just as likely to rape a woman as men who don't watch porn.

234
00:22:43,899 --> 00:22:58,059
Like there's, that was one of the things that the old conservatives said would happen, that men who watch pornography would rape women at higher rates. That ends up not happening. But men who watch a lot of pornography, like, don't think rape's a big deal.

235
00:22:58,699 --> 00:23:07,219
and that's part of this cycle of getting drawn in to ever worse and worse expressions of it.

236
00:23:08,739 --> 00:23:13,939
Men who watch a lot of pornography end up favoring same-sex marriage at much higher rates.

237
00:23:13,939 --> 00:23:20,199
I can't remember the exact numbers, but I think it's like a three-to-one rate than men who don't,

238
00:23:20,999 --> 00:23:27,059
and so it affects their political views a lot. It affects their relations, and this is another

239
00:23:27,059 --> 00:23:33,779
whole category of things. So lots of studies show that pornography is a big factor in divorce and

240
00:23:33,779 --> 00:23:40,279
relationship breakup. It causes the breakdown of trust between husbands and wives, kind of like

241
00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:48,679
adultery would, I think. And it maybe is a species of adultery. So I think the man become less

242
00:23:48,679 --> 00:23:54,719
manly, excuse me, and less marriageable as a result of watching pornography. And like,

243
00:23:54,719 --> 00:24:09,219
That's the whole purpose of protecting the police powers with the health, safety and morals of the people is to repair people for marriage and and responsibility and ambition in life.

244
00:24:09,839 --> 00:24:12,539
So I think this stuff is very well documented.

245
00:24:12,859 --> 00:24:16,979
I mean, I don't know that I left anything out, but those would be some of the major findings.

246
00:24:16,979 --> 00:24:24,079
there's a really good article in the institute for family studies i think in 2022 on the five

247
00:24:24,079 --> 00:24:30,059
big effects of pornography and they really all relate to it undermines marriage and that's what

248
00:24:30,059 --> 00:24:36,019
i mean the sexual liberationists thought it would undermine marriage they were right it does they

249
00:24:36,019 --> 00:24:41,779
were like yes that's why we want it and conservatives and christians have to see it as a threat too

250
00:24:41,779 --> 00:24:46,459
and recognize that there have to be legal options

251
00:24:46,459 --> 00:24:47,639
in order to fight it

252
00:24:47,639 --> 00:24:49,799
because it's not simply a matter of self-control.

253
00:24:49,919 --> 00:24:51,539
That's why we had the laws before.

254
00:24:53,319 --> 00:24:55,559
So anyways, I don't know if that helps, Tim.

255
00:24:55,699 --> 00:24:57,199
There's a lot more to say on this

256
00:24:57,199 --> 00:24:59,319
and stay tuned for my writings on these matters,

257
00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:02,019
but that's a little bit of a sketch.

258
00:25:04,659 --> 00:25:08,159
So how would you respond to those who say that,

259
00:25:08,259 --> 00:25:09,299
oh, no, no, you know,

260
00:25:09,339 --> 00:25:11,559
the law is downstream from culture.

261
00:25:11,779 --> 00:25:13,219
And we've got to change the culture.

262
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,719
Or maybe in kind of a related vein, people who say, no, no, no, it's a spiritual problem.

263
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,259
We need to see people's hearts transform spiritually through revival or something like that.

264
00:25:22,619 --> 00:25:25,139
Otherwise, this law stuff is just a fool's errand.

265
00:25:25,519 --> 00:25:26,379
How would you respond to that?

266
00:25:26,379 --> 00:25:28,739
Yeah, so let's take each of those in turn.

267
00:25:29,059 --> 00:25:31,719
I think it's true that law is upstream from culture.

268
00:25:32,099 --> 00:25:36,399
But I also think the opposite is true, that the culture is shaped by law.

269
00:25:36,479 --> 00:25:38,379
And this is a classic example of that.

270
00:25:38,379 --> 00:25:45,639
so uh who knows what like the natural desire for pornography is i don't know what the number is

271
00:25:45,639 --> 00:25:50,519
but very few people watched it before the or consumed it before the internet

272
00:25:50,519 --> 00:25:59,279
and even fewer before roth versus the united states in 1957 so uh you know the demand for it

273
00:25:59,279 --> 00:26:08,739
was low and the condemnation of it was high. So when you legalize it, do you get more of it?

274
00:26:09,179 --> 00:26:17,059
Yes. Why? Because it's no longer dishonorable. And so law shapes honor and honor shapes behavior.

275
00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:23,799
Or think of it like this. I was talking with a friend about this today. I mean, imagine what,

276
00:26:24,259 --> 00:26:28,639
I don't know, you guys are a little younger than I am, but I'll say like my grandparents,

277
00:26:28,639 --> 00:26:31,739
would they have sat at a dinner table with a pornographer?

278
00:26:33,899 --> 00:26:36,059
Whereas, like, we have to say it, like,

279
00:26:36,699 --> 00:26:40,239
it's not as dishonorable a profession as it used to be.

280
00:26:41,339 --> 00:26:46,279
And you can get elected to Congress or at least assemblymen in Florida,

281
00:26:46,679 --> 00:26:48,619
even after being a stripper.

282
00:26:49,319 --> 00:26:52,259
And there's examples of that down there in Pensacola.

283
00:26:52,379 --> 00:26:54,119
I do that for our friends down there.

284
00:26:54,119 --> 00:27:09,059
And, uh, and so there's just a lot less dishonor attached to these things and it just has to do with the law. So, um, to make, to make pornography dishonorable again, uh, part of that is making it, making it illegal.

285
00:27:09,059 --> 00:27:15,919
and uh and spiritual revival i mean like i'm pro spiritual revival sign me up for all spiritual

286
00:27:15,919 --> 00:27:22,719
revival that doesn't mean that you spread temptation out it doesn't mean like spiritual

287
00:27:22,719 --> 00:27:30,079
revival doesn't happen in an atmosphere where every heresy is given the same credence as christianity

288
00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:38,319
and uh and this is about shaping the environment where options for a good life are available to

289
00:27:38,319 --> 00:27:47,299
people. And so I'm pro revival, but I think it's naive to think that we should multiply the

290
00:27:47,299 --> 00:27:56,599
temptations in order to be more certain that the conversion is the product of a revival or genuine

291
00:27:56,599 --> 00:28:03,419
choice. And, uh, and I think that's kind of, that, that's what you have to face. Um, because the,

292
00:28:03,419 --> 00:28:10,019
emphasizing the importance of revival is basically inviting and celebrating temptation.

293
00:28:10,679 --> 00:28:13,399
And I think we're like not supposed to be led into it.

294
00:28:14,099 --> 00:28:16,939
And this is kind of a matter for not being led into it.

295
00:28:16,959 --> 00:28:18,099
I've heard it prayed somewhere.

296
00:28:20,579 --> 00:28:22,899
Yeah, well, I mean, we can't talk too much about that,

297
00:28:22,939 --> 00:28:24,799
especially at a governmental level, Scott,

298
00:28:24,859 --> 00:28:26,159
because that would be Christian nationalism.

299
00:28:26,159 --> 00:28:30,619
And we all know that that is a great evil that has beset us for some time now.

300
00:28:30,619 --> 00:28:40,619
I mean, how do you, I'm sure you run into people because of this being that being a topic of conversation, you run into people who are imagining theocracy.

301
00:28:40,919 --> 00:28:44,479
They're imagining homosexuals being thrown from rooftops.

302
00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:48,699
Obviously, that's a different religion, but they're still imagining it all the same.

303
00:28:49,579 --> 00:28:57,679
It just it sounds unthinkable and like something that has no precedent in the United States.

304
00:28:57,679 --> 00:28:59,779
How do you answer people when you speak to them?

305
00:28:59,779 --> 00:29:06,039
I'm sure you I'm sure they're very rational when they express these fears to you as you discuss this around the country.

306
00:29:06,039 --> 00:29:10,419
Yeah, I mean, there's there's a kind of thin answer and a thick answer.

307
00:29:10,599 --> 00:29:18,459
The thin answer is that it's impossible to defend the family under the circumstances where you have unlimited access to pornography.

308
00:29:19,239 --> 00:29:26,379
And the family is an institution without which civilization can, you know, cannot be perpetuated.

309
00:29:26,379 --> 00:29:47,979
So, without invoking faith of one thing or another, I think just the protection of family is crucial. But the thicker answer is that the protection of the, like, Christendom's particular form of the family is actually crucial to the protection of our civilization.

310
00:29:47,979 --> 00:29:54,899
because it's the only stable point

311
00:29:54,899 --> 00:30:00,599
that we have in our traditions and our civilization.

312
00:30:01,579 --> 00:30:05,179
So if you're going to defend the family in a Christian land,

313
00:30:05,239 --> 00:30:06,599
you defend the Christian family.

314
00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:11,039
And I do think that we'll call it the Christian nationalist argument

315
00:30:11,039 --> 00:30:12,759
is strongest on the family

316
00:30:12,759 --> 00:30:16,399
because the Christian family is well-ordered.

317
00:30:16,399 --> 00:30:30,039
It leads to more happiness than the alternatives in the main. And so the laws are going to end up, I think, under the best of circumstances, reflecting Christian teachings on these matters.

318
00:30:30,039 --> 00:30:33,719
and we should be thankful for that

319
00:30:33,719 --> 00:30:35,379
because that's really the best way

320
00:30:35,379 --> 00:30:38,139
to save or restore family life

321
00:30:38,139 --> 00:30:39,159
in our circumstance.

322
00:30:40,339 --> 00:30:42,579
So, I mean, I wouldn't lead with it.

323
00:30:42,659 --> 00:30:43,739
I don't lead with it,

324
00:30:43,779 --> 00:30:45,959
but it is the area where the argument,

325
00:30:46,099 --> 00:30:47,259
I think, makes the most sense.

326
00:30:50,359 --> 00:31:05,298
And so basically what are you I mean again I know you writing books Go buy his books I know you working on this on a number of fronts You just kind of talking to people about the issue helping people understand the history of these cases

327
00:31:08,038 --> 00:31:20,898
What else are you doing to try to help? I mean, is there active movements and desire to overturn some of these cases? Is there something in the pipeline right now, like a case in the pipeline that's kind of aiming that way?

328
00:31:20,898 --> 00:31:48,038
Not a case. So here's what I would like to see happen, and I think will happen in the next couple of years, maybe this year, in several states. So after the Supreme Court liberalized pornography in 1973, the Miller v. California case, nearly every state basically took the standards for pornography from the Miller case and made it into state law.

329
00:31:48,038 --> 00:31:51,957
So I have it up on my screen here, so I'm just going to read.

330
00:31:51,957 --> 00:32:13,998
You know, this is the basic part of the Miller case, which is that the average person applying contemporary standards would find that the work taken as a whole appeals to excessive sexual interests and is as a whole utterly without literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

331
00:32:14,538 --> 00:32:15,178
Okay.

332
00:32:15,178 --> 00:32:23,558
So they would put that stuff in their state laws, which meant that the state laws were as liberal as what the Supreme Court demanded state laws be.

333
00:32:25,558 --> 00:32:38,298
And maybe we could get away with that in the era when it was Playboy and Hustler and XXX stores on the edge of town, where, as I say, shame was still attached to the consumption of pornography.

334
00:32:38,298 --> 00:33:02,957
But now that we have Internet pornography and we know more about its effects on men, on women, on families, it's time to actually change those state laws that institutionalized or ratified that Supreme Court case, Miller v. California, and put in our state laws the old standards, the founder standards for discovering obscenity.

335
00:33:02,957 --> 00:33:06,258
and that will immediately be challenged.

336
00:33:07,358 --> 00:33:09,018
But this is how you create a case.

337
00:33:09,558 --> 00:33:13,338
You create a case in a controversy by immediately,

338
00:33:13,758 --> 00:33:16,737
by challenging the standards that the Supreme Court has

339
00:33:16,737 --> 00:33:18,798
in light of new evidence.

340
00:33:19,558 --> 00:33:22,118
New evidence, I think, is ample.

341
00:33:22,298 --> 00:33:25,618
That's why I have this chart of studies

342
00:33:25,618 --> 00:33:28,298
and there's way more where these came from.

343
00:33:28,298 --> 00:33:54,638
And so the goal would be to arm some state legislators with deficient scientific and sociological studies on the effects of pornography so that they would have a factual basis for turning, like turning their laws back to where they were that would allow the regulation of obscenity.

344
00:33:54,638 --> 00:33:59,838
and, as I say, create the controversy that could make these cases be revisited.

345
00:34:00,618 --> 00:34:02,498
I think it's a kind of compelling thing.

346
00:34:03,398 --> 00:34:07,977
And the interests of adults are harmed by this, just like children.

347
00:34:08,638 --> 00:34:14,677
If children's brains and passions are shaped by pornographic addictions

348
00:34:14,677 --> 00:34:17,398
and unlimited access to pornography, so are adults.

349
00:34:18,238 --> 00:34:23,038
And the fact that they can consent, so-called, to these things

350
00:34:23,038 --> 00:34:27,198
has always been taken as only one little piece of evidence

351
00:34:27,198 --> 00:34:30,118
because the goal is not to lead people

352
00:34:30,118 --> 00:34:31,457
in a temptation with the laws,

353
00:34:31,598 --> 00:34:34,638
but to actually shape their choices

354
00:34:34,638 --> 00:34:37,738
toward good institutions like marriage and family life.

355
00:34:39,538 --> 00:34:41,418
Can you give, for an example,

356
00:34:41,518 --> 00:34:43,718
can you give an example of another issue

357
00:34:43,718 --> 00:34:46,718
where they've appealed to, in light of new evidence,

358
00:34:47,138 --> 00:34:49,018
and then there's been some sort of overturning

359
00:34:49,018 --> 00:34:50,778
of a Supreme Court precedent?

360
00:34:50,778 --> 00:35:13,098
Yeah, I mean, well, the classic example of this is Brown v. Board of Education. So that happened in 1954. The previous Supreme Court standard there was Plessy v. Ferguson, 1896, where they said separate but equal is the Supreme Court is permissible.

361
00:35:13,098 --> 00:35:16,098
so that I think Plessy versus Ferguson

362
00:35:16,098 --> 00:35:17,858
was riding on railroad cars.

363
00:35:18,657 --> 00:35:20,698
So blacks and whites had separate cars.

364
00:35:22,157 --> 00:35:23,438
But that was fine.

365
00:35:23,657 --> 00:35:24,558
They were separated.

366
00:35:24,718 --> 00:35:25,498
There was segregation.

367
00:35:25,758 --> 00:35:26,657
There was Jim Crow.

368
00:35:27,218 --> 00:35:28,338
But it was equal.

369
00:35:28,457 --> 00:35:29,218
They each had a car.

370
00:35:30,598 --> 00:35:32,677
And so in light of the evidence,

371
00:35:32,938 --> 00:35:36,278
what happened was that the NAACP

372
00:35:36,278 --> 00:35:37,657
and people organized to show

373
00:35:37,657 --> 00:35:40,877
that separate was actually inherently unequal.

374
00:35:41,398 --> 00:35:42,457
And they would show that

375
00:35:42,457 --> 00:35:49,618
the actual services that businesses were providing blacks were inferior to those that the whites were

376
00:35:49,618 --> 00:35:58,457
getting. And therefore, the evidence showed that the doctrine was shaken up by the facts

377
00:35:58,457 --> 00:36:06,038
underlying it, and they overruled Plessy versus Ferguson. So that's a classic example of it.

378
00:36:06,038 --> 00:36:11,758
Yeah, I would say that's the classic example of it. There are probably others,

379
00:36:11,758 --> 00:36:13,177
but that's the classic example.

380
00:36:15,358 --> 00:36:20,418
Scott, I think I know what you mean when you talk about how pornography should be far more

381
00:36:20,418 --> 00:36:25,838
shameful than it is. I agree that there's a lot of things that should be much more publicly

382
00:36:25,838 --> 00:36:34,778
shamed and dishonorable. But as a pastor, I have known many people in my churches who

383
00:36:34,778 --> 00:36:39,998
are mired in pornography, and there's a great deal of shame for at least them attached.

384
00:36:39,998 --> 00:36:46,278
what would you say to say a young man in your church maybe one of your kids friends comes to you

385
00:36:46,278 --> 00:36:51,278
and they are struggling with this and they're saying I get it I agree with you that this should

386
00:36:51,278 --> 00:36:55,477
be illegal that would help it can't just be self-control but what do you tell them and what

387
00:36:55,477 --> 00:36:59,477
have you learned from your research and your studies as far as far as what actually does help

388
00:36:59,477 --> 00:37:06,818
people short of political transformation at a federal level yeah well my own view on this and

389
00:37:06,818 --> 00:37:11,258
I teach undergraduates and I talk to some of the guys who will talk to me about this.

390
00:37:11,438 --> 00:37:12,998
I have adult sons.

391
00:37:13,278 --> 00:37:14,238
My oldest is 29.

392
00:37:14,778 --> 00:37:21,078
And all of them have basically grown up in the internet pornography era.

393
00:37:21,957 --> 00:37:25,977
And so I've had discussions with them about the problem.

394
00:37:26,377 --> 00:37:27,018
And so I don't know.

395
00:37:27,058 --> 00:37:29,498
I'm drawing on a little experience, but probably not as much as you, Tim.

396
00:37:31,438 --> 00:37:34,778
What I do is I try to appeal to their self-respect.

397
00:37:34,778 --> 00:37:42,918
like uh like this is beneath your dignity you're a serious person this is not something a serious

398
00:37:42,918 --> 00:37:49,298
person does and uh i want you to be a serious person and that just is going to require that you

399
00:37:49,298 --> 00:37:54,818
like find some friends i'm not going to oversee this you find some friends hold one another

400
00:37:54,818 --> 00:38:01,377
accountable but do it because you're all serious people don't you go to the top end guys and you

401
00:38:01,377 --> 00:38:07,957
say, look, what about you guys? They talk about it and they hold one another like in accountability,

402
00:38:07,957 --> 00:38:14,618
but not just for that, but also for like the positive part, which is what are you doing to

403
00:38:14,618 --> 00:38:23,598
make yourself better today? And, uh, and I think like, um, the, the friendships, uh, that young

404
00:38:23,598 --> 00:38:33,058
men form in part in opposition to this are like good things and, and, but can't be just about

405
00:38:33,058 --> 00:38:39,838
stopping the bad. And my impression is that a lot of church, uh, accountability groups,

406
00:38:39,838 --> 00:38:48,438
like stop at like accountability for the bad and don't do enough. And what are you doing to make

407
00:38:48,438 --> 00:38:57,218
yourself ambitious and marriageable, uh, when you're 21. And so yeah, my, that's my own view

408
00:38:57,218 --> 00:39:05,278
on that is that, is that it, it can't be, it needs to be replaced by something. And, and it's not,

409
00:39:05,358 --> 00:39:09,918
I mean, it is sinful and I think it's bad. Don't get me wrong. And I think it like can lead to

410
00:39:09,918 --> 00:39:15,957
mortal situations with their souls. Um, but I always appeal to their self-respect,

411
00:39:15,957 --> 00:39:23,838
not condemning them for um for the sin of pornography i'll say

412
00:39:23,838 --> 00:39:29,877
it's interesting right because i mean honestly what you what you're doing like you could think

413
00:39:29,877 --> 00:39:36,778
about an accountability group as as a small society and so you're creating this environment

414
00:39:36,778 --> 00:39:42,677
in this in miniature where uh where you know pornography is shameful where it is seen as a

415
00:39:42,677 --> 00:39:47,677
negative thing. And so you're in those things prove successful, like at least in, I mean,

416
00:39:47,677 --> 00:39:52,438
I know of many of examples where that's been the case. And so it's kind of, I mean, it's kind of

417
00:39:52,438 --> 00:39:56,118
appropriate, right? You're just saying, Hey, we're, we want to apply this, you know, that we've

418
00:39:56,118 --> 00:40:01,298
experienced helpfulness and more healthy situations. We want to apply this at a larger level. And we

419
00:40:01,298 --> 00:40:05,598
expect the same sort of health to originate from it. It really makes sense when you, when you think

420
00:40:05,598 --> 00:40:10,477
about it in that, you know, from that standpoint, but so what are, what are the, who are the biggest

421
00:40:10,477 --> 00:40:16,218
players obviously i know porn is an enormous business but who are the who are the uh who and

422
00:40:16,218 --> 00:40:22,098
what are the groups on the other side who are uh who are not happy uh that scott yenner's uh trying

423
00:40:22,098 --> 00:40:29,357
to take down porn oh i mean i don't know that anyone knows that i am uh not yet after they

424
00:40:29,357 --> 00:40:36,298
watch this you know yeah it was viral um yeah i i uh you know i mean i think the biggest players

425
00:40:36,298 --> 00:40:44,677
are the companies, and I think the biggest company is Pornhub. And, you know, the other side of that

426
00:40:44,677 --> 00:40:51,957
Paxson case was Free Speech Coalition. I assume that that is a coalition of pornographers,

427
00:40:52,578 --> 00:40:59,238
but I'm not positive. And it's not really kind of where I stir what I do for a living to find out

428
00:40:59,238 --> 00:41:05,738
that part of this. But, uh, porn, porn hub is one of the biggest things, you know, the, the advocates

429
00:41:05,738 --> 00:41:12,658
for the ethic of pornography, I think are kind of on the run right now. And it would be a good time

430
00:41:12,658 --> 00:41:19,918
to keep them on the run because, uh, men see what it's doing to them and women see what it's doing

431
00:41:19,918 --> 00:41:25,418
to the men. And, uh, even if a majority of people do not say they want to regulate or ban porn right

432
00:41:25,418 --> 00:41:32,877
now, I don't believe that that reflects the genuine desires of people. And, um, and so,

433
00:41:32,877 --> 00:41:37,938
so I think there's a natural, like we should be the party of decency on this matter.

434
00:41:39,818 --> 00:41:47,658
There was some essay in, uh, I don't know if it was the Atlantic magazine, but it was some essay,

435
00:41:47,658 --> 00:41:55,398
uh, in a magazine like the Atlantic where it was like the case for pornography. And I don't

436
00:41:55,398 --> 00:41:58,298
No, man, it felt like 20 years ago dot com to me.

437
00:41:58,638 --> 00:42:02,377
And so I just don't think anyone believes it.

438
00:42:03,718 --> 00:42:04,158
Anymore.

439
00:42:04,298 --> 00:42:07,098
I don't think people say, oh, you know, all we need is more sexual liberation.

440
00:42:07,098 --> 00:42:13,278
We'll be happier like that is an exhausted dead end road in today's politics.

441
00:42:13,998 --> 00:42:16,418
And maybe it made sense in 1957.

442
00:42:16,418 --> 00:42:18,798
I don't think it did, but maybe it did some.

443
00:42:19,098 --> 00:42:21,558
But to think that now you'd have to be crazy.

444
00:42:21,558 --> 00:42:31,518
Scott are you uh despairing about the whole AI chatbot thing and where this is likely going in

445
00:42:31,518 --> 00:42:37,318
terms of just wild virtual reality pornography and everything and it is that do you remain

446
00:42:37,318 --> 00:42:41,938
confident that we can clamp down on these kinds of things in spite of these things yeah I mean I

447
00:42:41,938 --> 00:42:48,418
do think that that's you're right that that's part of um uh the replacement of actual women

448
00:42:48,418 --> 00:42:57,098
will say, is the AI as part of it. I once wrote an article about sex robots. And I actually have

449
00:42:57,098 --> 00:43:04,357
a portion in my Recovery of Family Life book on sex robots. It's somewhat of a funny story.

450
00:43:06,677 --> 00:43:15,138
I'm the chairman of a classical Christian school. And my wife often orders things to the school

451
00:43:15,138 --> 00:43:16,738
on our Amazon card.

452
00:43:16,998 --> 00:43:17,977
And I was wanted to like,

453
00:43:18,038 --> 00:43:19,558
oh, who writes about sex robots?

454
00:43:19,698 --> 00:43:20,598
So I ordered this book,

455
00:43:21,278 --> 00:43:22,998
like The Case for Sex Robots.

456
00:43:23,898 --> 00:43:25,857
And it arrives at the Christian school

457
00:43:25,857 --> 00:43:27,798
because I didn't change the address to my house.

458
00:43:27,918 --> 00:43:29,838
And like, so the secretary has opened up

459
00:43:29,838 --> 00:43:31,278
The Case for Sex Robots.

460
00:43:31,818 --> 00:43:33,457
Amy, my wife.

461
00:43:35,398 --> 00:43:38,318
And then I had some really weird experiences

462
00:43:38,318 --> 00:43:39,658
reading that book on an airplane

463
00:43:39,658 --> 00:43:42,638
where I like felt like the 1973 guy

464
00:43:42,638 --> 00:43:44,338
who gets the Playboy book.

465
00:43:44,338 --> 00:43:50,698
and I had like covering the, uh, my hands and things like that. But, you know, like people

466
00:43:50,698 --> 00:43:55,578
write books on this because they, they think like sex isn't personal. Like it's just about

467
00:43:55,578 --> 00:44:01,338
gratification or something like that. So any old machine will do. And it's just such a thin

468
00:44:01,338 --> 00:44:07,477
understanding of a person that I don't think these people. So anyway, uh, so I use that just an

469
00:44:07,477 --> 00:44:13,758
example. I think it's something we have to think about. And when we challenge the AI approach to

470
00:44:13,758 --> 00:44:19,658
sex, I don't know exactly what it is, or sex robots that I know more about. We have to be able

471
00:44:19,658 --> 00:44:26,218
to kind of articulate what sex is about. And, and which means that it's not simply about gratification

472
00:44:26,218 --> 00:44:31,778
or two people rubbing together. We're not animals. It's about two people coming together in a

473
00:44:31,778 --> 00:44:39,898
community, like, and they make babies. And so these things like are connected and pornography,

474
00:44:39,898 --> 00:44:42,258
AI chatbots

475
00:44:42,258 --> 00:44:43,918
sex robots

476
00:44:43,918 --> 00:44:46,377
are about separating sex

477
00:44:46,377 --> 00:44:48,418
from other people

478
00:44:48,418 --> 00:44:50,357
and

479
00:44:50,357 --> 00:44:52,438
like that ends up

480
00:44:52,438 --> 00:44:54,558
not being satisfying even as sex

481
00:44:54,558 --> 00:44:56,438
but certainly not as what is

482
00:44:56,438 --> 00:44:58,578
involved in the sexual I would say

483
00:44:58,578 --> 00:45:00,598
desire which is more than just

484
00:45:00,598 --> 00:45:00,938
that

485
00:45:00,938 --> 00:45:03,798
yeah it's inherently antisocial

486
00:45:03,798 --> 00:45:06,357
like by definition you're taking

487
00:45:06,357 --> 00:45:08,438
away others and so

488
00:45:08,438 --> 00:45:13,738
it's yeah what is i i want to get some clarification here what is it with it about or what is it with

489
00:45:13,738 --> 00:45:20,658
you uh you idaho guys in sex uh sex robot books because obviously we've got uh we got doug wilson's

490
00:45:20,658 --> 00:45:28,778
novel ride sally riders which is a fictionalized story about uh about a future date when we will

491
00:45:28,778 --> 00:45:33,658
have these things and what to do about them and he was dragged across the coals by a bunch of

492
00:45:33,658 --> 00:45:39,198
christian publications a number of years ago talked about as if he was insane and then obviously now

493
00:45:39,198 --> 00:45:43,938
we're i mean they're literally they exist already and so but yeah you idaho guys i don't know uh

494
00:45:43,938 --> 00:45:47,778
well but whether you guys have just had more time to think and there's something

495
00:45:47,778 --> 00:45:55,518
i yeah i don't know what it is um a lot of a lot of crazy things happen in idaho you know like

496
00:45:55,518 --> 00:46:02,258
we don't have a lot of murders but they're all big you know and uh and so maybe this is part of

497
00:46:02,258 --> 00:46:04,798
that. Maybe we're like those serial killers.

498
00:46:07,758 --> 00:46:09,957
Any other questions from Ben, Tim?

499
00:46:09,957 --> 00:46:12,258
Any other things that come to mind for you guys?

500
00:46:14,898 --> 00:46:18,177
Well, I was just going to say we, we're doing a marriage and

501
00:46:18,177 --> 00:46:37,376
parenting seminar series in our church right now And one of the issues kind of thinking through the positive side of sexuality and promoting the proper place and expression of sex within side of marriage

502
00:46:37,556 --> 00:46:45,276
we had a Q&A last night because last night our seminar was trust and intimacy. And we brought

503
00:46:45,276 --> 00:46:50,496
and a pastor and his wife, and he's also trained as a counselor.

504
00:46:50,696 --> 00:46:52,676
But anyway, they talk about trusted intimacy.

505
00:46:52,956 --> 00:46:56,536
During the Q&A, one of my younger congregants,

506
00:46:56,736 --> 00:47:00,136
he's probably in his 30s, he was basically like,

507
00:47:00,136 --> 00:47:08,956
why haven't we as the church, Big C, talked about this as much?

508
00:47:08,956 --> 00:47:14,316
and it was kind of a revealing moment.

509
00:47:16,236 --> 00:47:18,936
And, you know, I have theories about that,

510
00:47:19,056 --> 00:47:21,516
like kind of a Gnostic view, right?

511
00:47:21,696 --> 00:47:23,456
Material-spiritual separation.

512
00:47:24,036 --> 00:47:27,776
And so we spent a lot of time talking through

513
00:47:27,776 --> 00:47:31,016
promoting the marriage bed.

514
00:47:31,016 --> 00:47:35,256
And really the whole thing, it seems to me,

515
00:47:35,256 --> 00:47:42,636
is just a sort of a symptom of a greater, what someone calls, I can't remember his name,

516
00:47:42,756 --> 00:47:48,616
expressive individualism, right? It's a greater, it's one other tenet. In other words,

517
00:47:49,296 --> 00:47:54,196
the idea, like in 1 Corinthians, that my body belongs to my wife and her body belongs to me

518
00:47:54,196 --> 00:48:03,116
is foreign in our current cultural moment. And me trying to bring them in on the joy

519
00:48:03,116 --> 00:48:09,876
of that way versus the instant dopamine hit gratification.

520
00:48:10,396 --> 00:48:12,636
I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall to go,

521
00:48:12,756 --> 00:48:17,456
hey, there really is a beautiful joy on the other side of giving yourself

522
00:48:17,456 --> 00:48:19,636
in the ways that God has called us.

523
00:48:19,636 --> 00:48:25,756
And by necessity, young men and women preparing yourself

524
00:48:25,756 --> 00:48:30,296
and withholding that until it is expressed appropriately,

525
00:48:30,296 --> 00:48:35,136
kind of conveying to them like this is a beautiful, joyful thing

526
00:48:35,136 --> 00:48:38,096
versus that instant dopamine hit.

527
00:48:38,256 --> 00:48:40,076
And it is a challenge.

528
00:48:40,216 --> 00:48:42,236
I did college ministry for 13 years.

529
00:48:42,396 --> 00:48:45,836
And one time a few years ago, I wrote down in my journal

530
00:48:45,836 --> 00:48:48,836
the different variations of sexual immorality

531
00:48:48,836 --> 00:48:51,836
that I have encountered with students.

532
00:48:51,836 --> 00:48:56,756
And it filled the page of just one to two, three-word sentence,

533
00:48:56,976 --> 00:48:59,996
phrases of the different expressions of sexual immorality.

534
00:49:00,296 --> 00:49:04,316
And so, I mean, that's kind of, that's just me kind of throwing in there.

535
00:49:04,396 --> 00:49:11,496
Here's what we're doing on the ground game in the church is continuing to build in because I totally agree with you.

536
00:49:11,756 --> 00:49:18,196
I do think marriage is a flourishing marriage is good for humanity.

537
00:49:18,196 --> 00:49:31,916
And of course, particularly, we would say our Christian understanding of marriage is not only the beautiful path for Christians, but also the flourishing of all society.

538
00:49:32,236 --> 00:49:39,736
So not really a question, just kind of throwing out there kind of my day to day as a pastor as I encounter these things.

539
00:49:39,736 --> 00:49:56,016
Yeah. And I guess the way I would kind of respond, I mean, I don't really adhere to the whole expressive individualism thing. I think that's Carl Truman's book that you're talking about. And, you know, it's something. I mean, I do think it's a phenomenon.

540
00:49:56,016 --> 00:50:03,896
done. Um, but like the thing that the thing you have to recover is that sex has a place in marriage,

541
00:50:03,896 --> 00:50:10,176
but it's subordinate. It's subordinate to other goods. And I mean, this is something that in the,

542
00:50:10,296 --> 00:50:16,176
in the water that our grandparents, if our grandparents lived before the sexual revolution,

543
00:50:16,176 --> 00:50:22,396
like that was in the water for them. And the kind of all of us have probably lived in a world

544
00:50:22,396 --> 00:50:31,576
entirely sexified by making sex into one of the great, great, great goods of human life. And in

545
00:50:31,576 --> 00:50:39,276
fact, like happiness is kind of patterned on the orgasm or something like that. And like that's just

546
00:50:39,276 --> 00:50:45,056
a very like out there understanding what happiness is. Aristotle says happiness is living according

547
00:50:45,056 --> 00:50:51,536
to human excellence. And human excellence isn't like being good at sex. It's finding a subordinate

548
00:50:51,536 --> 00:50:58,676
place for sex within a life, right? Your ambition shouldn't be only directed toward the opposite sex

549
00:50:58,676 --> 00:51:04,056
as a man, but rather toward doing great things for a church or for your local community or for

550
00:51:04,056 --> 00:51:10,356
the country or great artistic achievements or something like that. And so it should have a

551
00:51:10,356 --> 00:51:15,796
place in your life. There's no doubt about it, but it's subordinate to other things, including

552
00:51:15,796 --> 00:51:22,016
your marriage. You know, I totally agree with that. I mean, you know, you think about marriages

553
00:51:22,016 --> 00:51:28,596
in God's kingdom as an economic function first and foremost, right? The institution of marriage.

554
00:51:28,756 --> 00:51:35,636
And so, yeah, I was just particularly speaking to, hey, where is, it's not the end all be all.

555
00:51:35,976 --> 00:51:42,216
In other words, another thing, like our identity is, our base identity is not our expression of

556
00:51:42,216 --> 00:51:48,736
sexuality. And so I totally agree with you as underneath, but I'm trying to hold out for them.

557
00:51:48,836 --> 00:51:56,116
The connection between two people in marriage is way healthier than that self-gratification. But

558
00:51:56,116 --> 00:52:04,416
yeah, I understand what you're saying. Yeah. So Scott, what states are kind of leading the way

559
00:52:04,416 --> 00:52:08,776
on this front? I would imagine that you'd have, here's what I would imagine. I would imagine you

560
00:52:08,776 --> 00:52:16,976
have California and New York would probably be on the, you know, they'd be kind of going hard on

561
00:52:16,976 --> 00:52:21,156
the other side of things. Could be wrong because I know there's lots of conservatives in California.

562
00:52:21,756 --> 00:52:27,096
But what are some of the other states that are kind of leading the way in terms of

563
00:52:27,096 --> 00:52:31,456
trying to outlaw porn, at least within the borders, other than Texas, which we've already talked about?

564
00:52:32,076 --> 00:52:38,596
Yeah. I mean, Texas is just the age verification law, which, you know, I'm not saying I'm opposed

565
00:52:38,596 --> 00:52:43,136
age verification, but I'm saying like that's yesterday's battle. It's kind of been a lot in

566
00:52:43,136 --> 00:52:48,096
right states. And I think 20 plus states have already passed the age verification stuff. I

567
00:52:48,096 --> 00:52:54,556
haven't kept track recently. Maybe it was 24. And as far as who's going to do it, stay tuned. I'll

568
00:52:54,556 --> 00:53:02,436
let you know. But definitely talks are happening. Again, there's work to be done. And I'm really,

569
00:53:02,436 --> 00:53:07,716
I mean, I just remember I was listening after Charlie Kirk's death the other day.

570
00:53:08,196 --> 00:53:11,596
I found his interview with Pastor Doug Wilson on Man Rampant,

571
00:53:11,616 --> 00:53:16,136
and they were talking about somebody asked the question in the question and answer time at the very end.

572
00:53:16,236 --> 00:53:20,176
They asked, what can be done to redeem the universities?

573
00:53:21,296 --> 00:53:24,736
And, you know, I was just expecting, Charlie's a pretty optimistic guy.

574
00:53:24,856 --> 00:53:27,656
I just was expecting a more optimistic answer.

575
00:53:27,816 --> 00:53:30,156
And Charlie just basically said, I don't think they can be redeemed.

576
00:53:30,156 --> 00:53:33,596
I think they're a lost cause and we need to start new ones or whatever.

577
00:53:33,896 --> 00:53:34,636
And then,

578
00:53:34,636 --> 00:53:35,356
you know,

579
00:53:35,396 --> 00:53:35,676
a week,

580
00:53:35,776 --> 00:53:36,716
two weeks later or whatever,

581
00:53:36,816 --> 00:53:37,356
a few weeks later,

582
00:53:37,376 --> 00:53:38,496
I guess from when it was recorded,

583
00:53:38,996 --> 00:53:39,416
uh,

584
00:53:39,796 --> 00:53:40,036
you know,

585
00:53:40,056 --> 00:53:40,596
he dies.

586
00:53:40,776 --> 00:53:43,216
And then you start to see in the aftermath,

587
00:53:43,216 --> 00:53:44,036
you start to see,

588
00:53:44,116 --> 00:53:44,536
I think they,

589
00:53:44,576 --> 00:53:46,416
they currently have a few thousand,

590
00:53:46,416 --> 00:53:47,356
uh,

591
00:53:47,376 --> 00:53:49,336
turning point chapters at universities around the,

592
00:53:49,456 --> 00:53:49,976
around the country.

593
00:53:49,976 --> 00:53:51,976
And they had something like 31,000,

594
00:53:51,976 --> 00:53:52,876
uh,

595
00:53:53,056 --> 00:53:53,236
it,

596
00:53:53,296 --> 00:53:53,556
you know,

597
00:53:53,596 --> 00:53:55,416
inquiries to start other ones.

598
00:53:55,756 --> 00:53:56,116
Uh,

599
00:53:56,116 --> 00:53:59,256
so there's a part of me that just thinks really for this thing to happen,

600
00:53:59,256 --> 00:54:02,136
and you've kind of laid out the case for it, there's defense for it.

601
00:54:02,136 --> 00:54:07,636
We still need, for those who really want to emphasize the spiritual point

602
00:54:07,636 --> 00:54:09,356
and who want to emphasize the miraculous,

603
00:54:09,916 --> 00:54:15,636
I do think we still need some sort of move of God in the minds and hearts of people

604
00:54:15,636 --> 00:54:17,896
to prioritize enough to go do something about it.

605
00:54:18,496 --> 00:54:22,196
And I think also starting at the local level is something that a lot of people

606
00:54:22,196 --> 00:54:26,396
completely underestimate the good that can be done

607
00:54:26,396 --> 00:54:30,776
by just stepping up in your local town, your local city,

608
00:54:31,176 --> 00:54:33,096
and just making your voice known.

609
00:54:33,636 --> 00:54:38,436
Yeah, and the hope is that when you propose laws like this

610
00:54:38,436 --> 00:54:40,696
and you're well-prepared for proposing them,

611
00:54:41,256 --> 00:54:44,876
that you can actually move the window on what people think about it.

612
00:54:45,536 --> 00:54:49,596
So I think that having public debates about this topic

613
00:54:49,596 --> 00:54:58,316
will expose the rot inside of the pro-pornography side.

614
00:54:59,396 --> 00:55:04,336
And they have to either be callous or evil

615
00:55:04,336 --> 00:55:08,056
in order to keep promoting this

616
00:55:08,056 --> 00:55:10,896
in light of the crises that it has caused.

617
00:55:11,556 --> 00:55:14,436
As I say, it's not this one-to-one relationship

618
00:55:14,436 --> 00:55:18,376
between an act of pornography and this social dysfunction,

619
00:55:18,376 --> 00:55:20,456
this guy's social dysfunction.

620
00:55:20,736 --> 00:55:24,916
It's like 20% on all of these factors

621
00:55:24,916 --> 00:55:27,576
is making a profound change in society.

622
00:55:28,336 --> 00:55:30,876
And that's what can be changed in a free people.

623
00:55:31,096 --> 00:55:33,896
And I think efforts will be made in this direction,

624
00:55:34,036 --> 00:55:35,176
you know, soon.

625
00:55:36,336 --> 00:55:39,296
Scott, you just made the exact case for a while.

626
00:55:39,396 --> 00:55:40,976
We're Bitcoiners from a few.

627
00:55:41,336 --> 00:55:44,556
You just, the way you laid that out is like,

628
00:55:44,616 --> 00:55:46,216
well, we would say that about the fiat system

629
00:55:46,216 --> 00:55:47,196
in the monetary world.

630
00:55:47,196 --> 00:55:48,456
It's the same line of argument.

631
00:55:49,376 --> 00:55:54,216
Yeah, we would, again, looking at the incentives and a lot of the incentives behind these things,

632
00:55:54,916 --> 00:55:59,336
I have a buddy who's been, you know, just talking about the fact that, so Charlie Kirk,

633
00:55:59,436 --> 00:56:00,676
and there's been a few different things.

634
00:56:01,076 --> 00:56:07,596
He was joking about the fact that these are our first big, like, attacks since U.S. aid ended.

635
00:56:08,076 --> 00:56:11,836
And he's like, they used to, you know, the guns that they used to have were, like, AR-15s.

636
00:56:11,876 --> 00:56:14,716
They were heavily armed, and now they have, like, these rinky-dick rifles.

637
00:56:14,716 --> 00:56:21,276
You know, it seems like like when there's when the money starts flowing in certain directions, like a money, the money drives a lot of the incentives.

638
00:56:21,816 --> 00:56:29,996
And so, I mean, where do you see? I mean, do you see do you see efforts to that end of just trying to cut off funding for some of these things that were attacking the funding?

639
00:56:29,996 --> 00:56:35,316
I know in the case of Pornhub, Layla McElwain is somebody who's done a ton of work.

640
00:56:35,376 --> 00:56:39,896
I can't remember the name of her organization, but she's done a ton of work to go after,

641
00:56:40,596 --> 00:56:46,396
like to go to Visa and to go to MasterCard and go to PayPal and basically throw it up

642
00:56:46,396 --> 00:56:48,436
in their face and say, hey, are you guys support this?

643
00:56:48,796 --> 00:56:53,216
Because there's all kinds of videos of rape and abuse and all kinds of stuff that were

644
00:56:53,216 --> 00:56:56,476
all over Pornhub and some of these other sites.

645
00:56:56,476 --> 00:57:04,536
And so she just basically showed this to them and they started pulling their their the ability for their cards to be used on some of a lot of these sites.

646
00:57:04,536 --> 00:57:11,196
And so talk maybe a little bit about that, because that is more germane to our specific podcast is we kind of talk about the economics of different things.

647
00:57:11,436 --> 00:57:13,536
Yeah, I mean, I think that stuff's great.

648
00:57:13,696 --> 00:57:21,336
That happened, I think, as a result of like a Ross Douthat article in The New York Times.

649
00:57:22,836 --> 00:57:25,756
Nicholas Kristoff.

650
00:57:25,856 --> 00:57:26,296
Nicholas Kristoff.

651
00:57:26,296 --> 00:57:27,236
I think it was Kristoff. That's it.

652
00:57:27,236 --> 00:57:35,496
And and which is, you know, totally interesting because he didn't say anything that the right hasn't been saying for a decade.

653
00:57:35,776 --> 00:57:41,356
So that shows that there's some change, you know, in the left and recognizing these problems.

654
00:57:41,356 --> 00:57:50,976
And only if a lefty says that their problem will these companies, you know, spring into action, then maybe only if a lefty acts against it.

655
00:57:50,976 --> 00:58:02,496
So that's another reason to have the debate, because there actually might be allies and actually honor on the other side to be won by being one of the people who stands up to this.

656
00:58:02,956 --> 00:58:10,476
And that could have some sort of cascading effect on the level of activism taking place against them.

657
00:58:10,476 --> 00:58:16,316
The same thing happens with sex trafficking arguments against them.

658
00:58:16,316 --> 00:58:32,736
Now, I don't like to make that argument because, like, I think perfectly consensual pornography is a problem. So we need to go after a whole not like some of the ways it's made. And but like, I think all like let's empty the toolbox and use all the the tools that we can get.

659
00:58:32,736 --> 00:58:40,176
um so yeah i mean i i don't it makes sense right because there's a liberal establishment in the

660
00:58:40,176 --> 00:58:47,696
country that if there if there can be honor one on the left uh going after pornography um but it's

661
00:58:47,696 --> 00:58:54,436
obvious that they don't care about sex trafficking like they don't yet and uh so can we relate it to

662
00:58:54,436 --> 00:59:01,116
the boy crisis well i think we can and if we can then maybe some of them will be able to pick it up

663
00:59:01,116 --> 00:59:07,536
but you know like they're few and far between unfortunately we another thing we talk about

664
00:59:07,536 --> 00:59:14,676
quite a bit is is the role the way that god has used uh moral arguments to to bring an end to

665
00:59:14,676 --> 00:59:18,976
injustice like there's a lot of people who you know again to your point could want to use technology

666
00:59:18,976 --> 00:59:23,736
to try to do some of these things and again that's it's not a bad thing but it there's limitations to

667
00:59:23,736 --> 00:59:28,156
it and so you look at luther with the you know the protestant reformation he's making moral

668
00:59:28,156 --> 00:59:35,576
arguments. You look at Wilberforce. Wilberforce brings an end to the slave trade by virtue of

669
00:59:35,576 --> 00:59:40,836
making a moral argument and showing that these people are acting inconsistently with what their

670
00:59:40,836 --> 00:59:49,056
faith is. And so, again, I'm hopeful that as the evidence continues to mount and as we have this

671
00:59:49,056 --> 00:59:56,436
conversation more publicly, that again, hopefully we will see an end to this evil sooner rather than

672
00:59:56,436 --> 01:00:02,256
later. Well, uh, thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. You know, I, I, I began by telling

673
01:00:02,256 --> 01:00:10,656
Jordan that I owned Bitcoin, that I bought it at 20,000, uh, and I sold it at 112,000, I think.

674
01:00:10,896 --> 01:00:14,076
Okay. And which is pretty good, you know, but I only had, it is pretty good. I won't lie.

675
01:00:14,316 --> 01:00:19,836
I only had two or something and I've taken that money and spent some of it on gold and, uh,

676
01:00:19,836 --> 01:00:26,416
other parts in stock. So we'll see. Um, uh, and I invested it in private equity. So I like,

677
01:00:26,416 --> 01:00:28,096
Like diversified out of Bitcoin.

678
01:00:29,436 --> 01:00:37,216
But I do hope for your sake and for all of your friends' sake that it keeps going up and we can all be friends with different forms of wealth.

679
01:00:38,056 --> 01:00:38,596
Love it.

680
01:00:38,836 --> 01:00:40,516
Yeah, and again, we'd love to have you back at some point.

681
01:00:40,596 --> 01:00:50,336
We can talk about, again, one of the reasons we're into Bitcoin is just because of things like, for example, we've interviewed the spokesperson for the Canadian trucker protest.

682
01:00:50,576 --> 01:00:54,416
And he spoke about, you know, for censorship reasons, you know, they were cut off.

683
01:00:54,536 --> 01:00:56,216
They had people raise millions of dollars for them.

684
01:00:56,416 --> 01:00:59,996
and they weren't able to access any of it because they were declared enemies of the state.

685
01:01:00,136 --> 01:01:04,896
And so the only money that they were able to actually get for a period of time was the Bitcoin that people gave to them.

686
01:01:04,996 --> 01:01:09,516
And so the idea of both for censorship, resistance reasons, moving money around the world,

687
01:01:10,016 --> 01:01:17,256
and then also just with currency devaluation, trying to help Christian organizations and schools and mission organizations

688
01:01:17,256 --> 01:01:21,996
be able to continue to work, having an endowment with at least a percentage of that in Bitcoin

689
01:01:21,996 --> 01:01:24,636
is something that we're talking about with a number of institutions.

690
01:01:24,636 --> 01:01:26,496
So we'd love to have you back at some point

691
01:01:26,496 --> 01:01:26,956
and talk about that.

692
01:01:27,016 --> 01:01:28,116
But Scott, thank you so much.

693
01:01:28,216 --> 01:01:28,696
Thanks for having me.

694
01:01:28,696 --> 01:01:31,696
Again, go find Scott's books on Amazon,

695
01:01:31,816 --> 01:01:32,796
wherever else they're found.

696
01:01:33,316 --> 01:01:35,456
Go read them and spread the word.

697
01:01:35,636 --> 01:01:36,776
And we are grateful to have you

698
01:01:36,776 --> 01:01:37,996
on the Thank God for Bitcoin podcast.

699
01:01:38,156 --> 01:01:39,916
Go like, subscribe, all the places.

700
01:01:40,576 --> 01:01:41,856
We'll see you on the next episode.