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Pastor Ben Haley, welcome to the Thank God for Bitcoin podcast.

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Thank you for having me, Jordan.

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All right, man.

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So again, for those who aren't familiar with who you are, what you do, why don't you give

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a brief intro to all those folks out there?

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Yes.

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Pastor Ben Haley.

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I am an ordained pastor in the PCA, Presbyterian Church in America, and I'm currently serving

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as the senior pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in College Station, a church plant that

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I've been going now for a little over eight years. Love it. And in terms of just kind of your walk

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with the Lord, basically when we have Christians on the podcast, we kind of ask them, before we

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talk about their orange pill moment, we want to hear about their Jesus pill moment. So why don't

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you kind of share that with us? How did you come to know the Lord? Yeah, thanks. So my story grew up

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my parents divorced when I was four.

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And I kind of lived a pretty,

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might say split life,

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lived with my mother,

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but then had, you know,

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visitation with my dad every other weekend

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and that sort of thing.

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And when I was with mom,

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we went to church.

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And when I was with dad,

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if we were not at the farm,

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if we were at the farm,

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my grandmother took me to church.

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If we weren't,

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dad and I kind of hung out on Sunday mornings.

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And so I lived with my mom, kind of became involved in the Baptist church that I was a part of,

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and got baptized when I was eight or nine, but didn't really understand what was going on.

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And our life was pretty chaotic.

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My mom was into our second marriage that was pretty bad.

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And my dad's health was failing, and I'm an only child.

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Um, and so, you know, some pretty tough years in there.

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Um, and this actually will intersect some with my Bitcoin story, but, uh, my parents

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worked hard, but my dad was a high school basketball coach.

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Uh, so they, they don't make a lot of money and my mom didn't have a college degree and

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she was working hard.

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Um, my grandparents had a big part in my life on my dad's side for sure, uh, living at the

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farm.

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Um, so I always had kind of what I needed, but in the, in the middle of that, I was like, I gotta,

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I gotta make a life. Like I'm on, I'm on my own. Not to say people weren't loving me well, but

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it really was like, I've got to carve out. And so I kind of plunged myself into academics, um,

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and went to a, uh, two year boarding school in Mississippi that was, um, a math and science

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school and kind of what year was this what year was this this would have been uh i graduated high

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school in 96 okay and then um we didn't have a lot of money my mother was going through her second

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divorce at the time my dad had retired early because he had kidney failures type 1 diabetic

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um and so my parents were like we don't have any money you can't take any loans you can't work in

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college, but you got to go to college. So they'd been telling me that for a couple of years, which

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meant I got to find scholarships. And, um, so I ended up going to Delta State University in

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Mississippi. It's a kind of a small state school because they, they paid for my college. Um, and so

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went there and, uh, pleasure fraternity, uh, in, in college and, uh, kind of, you know, was not

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really doing the church thing at all.

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But then it was January of my freshman year

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when you have what's called Hell Week.

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That's just a code for initiation week.

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And one of the brothers in the fraternity was a Christian.

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And when it's Hell Week,

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you have to do whatever the actives say, right?

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You're a pledge of fraternity.

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You just have to do whatever they tell you to do.

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And so me and a good friend of mine, Bubba,

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That was his name.

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Bubba's a great guy.

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Me and Bubba were like really tight.

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We were both pre-med, pre-dental.

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And so Brad, this guy Brad, he was like, you and Bubba got to go to this Bible study with me.

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And so we had to go.

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And so we went to this minister's house and there was about 25, 30 students there.

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And he starts talking about the Bible.

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And I'm like, I have never heard anybody talk about the Bible like this.

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I mean, it was powerful. And so, you know, uh, we got initiated that week and then we didn't have to do anything. I was like, man, I got to go back to that Bible study. I ain't never heard anybody talk about the Bible like that.

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Wow. And so I kept going. And the minister, who's still a dear mentor in my life, he just took me under his wing.

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And then he was like, hey, we got this beach conference in May. You want to go with us?

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And I'm like, heck yeah, I'll go to the beach, you know. And I was like, I don't have any money.

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He's like, we'll pay for it. I was like, all right. So I went to this beach conference.

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Well, that Bible study was. Was this down in Florida? What beach were you at?

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Illa Guna Beach Christian Retreat Center, which now in my ministry career, I think I've spent 23 weeks of my life at that place.

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But anyway, so we went to this beach conference and there was all these, they were, they were past, you know, we had large group times and then we had seminars.

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And I went to everything and, you know, I was more excited about the three on three basketball, you know, tournament there.

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But anyway, we got in the car to come back, and we were in a 15-passenger van, a bunch of students, and the minister put me in the front of the van.

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We had a nine-hour drive back.

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And I was like, Ricky, I didn't understand anything anybody said.

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Like, what is this?

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Like, what?

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And he just preached the gospel to me for like nine hours.

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Then I went home for the summer.

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I went over the summer because I was working on the farm and bagging groceries, the local grocery store.

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And anyway, I remember emailing him.

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This was in 97.

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I sent him an email and I was like, what is grace?

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Like, what is that?

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To kind of tell you that I was so steeped in establishing the sense that I needed to establish myself in life.

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Right.

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What is grace?

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And he sent me a couple of books.

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One little book called From Religion to Christ.

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It's a little commentary on Nicodemus' conversion.

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It was really good.

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It had a powerful impact.

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So anyway, went back.

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I wasn't a Christian.

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Went back to school that fall.

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I'd been involved in cheating in class.

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And for the record, I've since confessed all that to the dean.

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And several years later, I went back.

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And anyway, so I was just not doing good.

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I mean, and, but I was still going to RUF, the Bible study.

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And the minister.

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What is, what is RUF?

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Oh, sorry.

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Yeah.

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RUF is the National Campus Ministry Agency for the PCA.

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And it's pretty large nationwide ministry.

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So anyway, that was what that thing was.

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I didn't know what it was at the time.

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But I just knew this minister was loving me and praying for me.

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And, and anyway, so I, ironically, I was actually leading music because I could play the guitar and he didn't have anybody and he knew I wasn't a Christian, but he didn't care.

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He was like, he just wanted me, he needed somebody and he wanted me as close as possible, which I just really love.

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But anyway, so fast forward, uh, sophomore year fall.

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I'm just like, I'm just under the, what I now know is under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

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Right.

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And I came home for Christmas break and I grabbed my climate tree stand and I went to the woods to deer camp and I climbed a pine tree every day in my climate stand.

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But I took a Bible with me.

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I started reading the Psalms and I got Psalm 32.

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You know, bless the man whose transgressors are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

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And then on into that Psalm, like my strength was sapped, it was in the heat of summer.

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And I was like, Lord, I feel this.

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What is going on?

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I need you.

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And I became a Christian.

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And then I came back, and I was presented with the same opportunity to engage in some sin patterns, and I just said no.

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And I called my minister, and I was like, I said no.

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I said no.

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He's like, boy, I think you've become a Christian.

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And so that's my—and then so got involved in RUF, and I was still pre-med in college, but simultaneously joined a church, got involved in the church.

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started helping with youth group, started discerning a call to ministry over about a two-year period, married Beth.

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And then when she finished college, we actually moved to Jackson.

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I went to Reform Seminary in Jackson.

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Did RUF for four years at Hans Community College and nine years of RUF at Texas A&M

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and now in my ninth year planting at Redeemer.

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So there you go.

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Two kids.

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Hannah's 21.

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She's a junior at A&M.

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Nathan's a freshman at Mississippi State.

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Yep.

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There you go.

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That's wild.

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So tell me, well, tell me as much as you want to tell me about how you met Beth and what that looked like.

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Yeah, so Beth showed up a year after me.

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This is a funny story, too.

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She showed up at Delta State.

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She was a year behind me.

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I was, again, this was fall of my sophomore year.

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And like I said, I was leading music at RUF, but like I was still living in sin.

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Yeah.

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And she showed up.

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And I'm like...

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That is the most amazing girl I've ever seen in my entire life.

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And I remember sitting in the cafeteria with my minister.

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He's like, boy, that girl's a Christian.

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You know?

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That girl got the ghost.

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That girl's a Christian.

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And so I just, he said, you need to focus on the relationship with the Lord and what he's doing in your life.

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And I did.

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And, you know, I got on my knees and I begged Jesus to save me in those moments.

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But anyway, about five minutes after I became a Christian, I asked Beth out.

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So, yeah, we met at RUF, and we got married pretty young.

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I was 21.

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She was 20.

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So middle of her junior year.

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Yep.

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That's great.

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Yep.

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Love it.

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She still is the most amazing woman I've ever met in my life, for the record.

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Again, I won't confirm that because I'm also married, but I can confirm she's an awesome lady.

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She's awesome.

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She's a winner.

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Okay, so Ben, so then now tell us your Bitcoin story.

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So you were a minister.

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When did you become a minister?

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2004, I was ordained.

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I had done three years of youth ministry from 01 to 04, but officially ordained in June of 2004.

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Okay, so you're ministering in Mississippi and other places?

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In Mississippi until I was 30. We moved here in 08 for me to do RUF at Texas A&M.

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Yep.

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Gotcha. Okay. And so now kind of you can go whatever path you want to. Tell us your Orange

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Bell story. What did that look like?

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Yeah. So the stories kind of intersect, right? So in the sense that the scarcity of being a child

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of divorced parents, you know, my mother grew up below the poverty line. And again, my family were

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all basketball coaches. And so we weren't just like loaded or anything, but anyway.

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So one of the things that, um, you know, being a child of divorced parents, kind of lower income,

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um, money is always an issue. Um, it's just an issue. And so you have, you know, when you're a

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kid, you're like, mom, can I go do this? We need to ask your dad, you know? And, and so I, I had

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to kind of manage that.

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For the record,

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I love my parents.

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My dad passed away in 02

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from competition with diabetes.

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My mother's an amazing woman

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and she and I have talked at length

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about all those days

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and those hard, hard days

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that she had,

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that we had together, et cetera.

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But anyway,

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just kind of that constant

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back and forth of like,

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I want to go to Philmont.

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I need somebody to pay.

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Can somebody help me pay for this?

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I was in the Boy Scouts.

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I want to go to Philmont.

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I want to go on the second trip.

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And it's like,

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we don't have any money.

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and it was just back and forth.

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And then, you know, another story I had kind of taken note here is when my dad,

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you know, I spent every other weekend with him, but then on my off weeks,

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he'd come take me out to eat.

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He lived about 30 minutes away.

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And I just remember getting in the car with him one time, and he was just like,

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I don't have enough money for us to go get us home to eat.

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And I wasn't mad or anything, but my point there is when you're a child,

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you make these subconscious childhood vows.

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It's very important, I think, for a person to go back

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and kind of think about these subconscious childhood vows that you make.

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And one of those vows that I now look back and realize I made was

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I will never need anything from anybody in my life.

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I will make sure, especially financially, that I will not go without.

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And so you kind of fast forward, and that means that I plunge myself into academics.

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I'm like, I got to get ahead.

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I've got to find a really high-paying job.

237
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I do not want to worry about money.

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And so that's kind of tracking in me.

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And I became a Christian, and of course the Lord begins to work in my heart in a lot of ways.

240
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I will say on the flip side of that story, my family was very generous.

241
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Even with what little they had.

242
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So, and one of the things my mother had me do when I was little, I can't even remember, is, you know, the marshmallow crane jars, the glass ones that you would make Rice Krispie Treats out of?

243
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So, she cleaned those out.

244
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She cleaned two of them out.

245
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And she screwed the lid back on the top.

246
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And they're empty.

247
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And she cut a hole in the top of each.

248
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And she labeled one tithe and the other one life savings.

249
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And she said, no matter what, this is what we do.

250
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And it was just, boom, right there.

251
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And so that's one of her legacies that I really, really appreciate.

252
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But anyway, the other side is like my grandmother was always slipping me money, you know.

253
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And the culture, the old Southern culture of we're going to help out family was very much present in my family system that I very much appreciate.

254
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So kind of got those two parallel things going.

255
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So anyway, my dad was actually a high school economics teacher while he was a basketball coach.

256
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And he was always preaching about economics.

257
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I didn't know what economics was, but now that I'm in this Bitcoin journey, I remember all these things he used to say.

258
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So anyway, one of the things he started preaching to me early is like, you got to get a Roth IRA.

259
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You got to do a Roth IRA.

260
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Like they came out, I don't know when they came out, early 90s, mid 90s, something.

261
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He's like, this is what you got to do.

262
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And so I just listened to him.

263
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So I had a little extra money left over from my scholarship.

264
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So I started a Roth IRA when I was 20 years old.

265
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Wow.

266
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Anyway, then my dad passed away, and the little money that he left us, I stuck it in right off the race.

267
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Dumped it in, yeah.

268
00:15:58,180 --> 00:16:07,220
So, you know, fast forward to last year, 2024, January 2024.

269
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You know, I'm looking at my returns, and I had set it up as, like, fairly aggressive.

270
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Like, you know, and this is also part of my Bitcoin mindset.

271
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It's like, man, I got riches coming in heaven, you know.

272
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:24,200
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

273
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Let's go with what we think might be a good idea.

274
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Let's not live in, you know, my counselor says I'm a thrill seeker.

275
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Anyway, but I have my own versions of that, like church planting and Bitcoin.

276
00:16:38,380 --> 00:16:44,800
But anyway, so anyway, fast forward, you know, I'm looking at my returns.

277
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Well, it'd been like 20 years since I'd put a little money in the Roth,

278
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and I hadn't been good about contributing all the time to it, on and off, you know.

279
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And I was like, 8% return in 20 years.

280
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I'm like, everybody told me that was the right thing.

281
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We were hardcore Dave Ramsey when we first got married.

282
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Like we were the envelope system.

283
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:09,460
Yeah.

284
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:20,140
Um, and I will say over the years, that childhood vow, you know, of, I'll never, we will never

285
00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:22,240
have a need for money.

286
00:17:23,220 --> 00:17:25,480
Didn't always, wasn't, wasn't always good.

287
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It really wasn't.

288
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I mean, like my wife, remember my wife called me one time, we had two little babies and I

289
00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:34,580
was out, I was maybe 30 minutes away from her at a conference room.

290
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She called me and she's like, and I'd always told her, I was like, hey, when there's a thunderstorm nearby, we got to cut the air conditioning off because we can't afford to replace it.

291
00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,360
She called me and she's like, honey, we're dying from heat.

292
00:17:46,420 --> 00:17:47,940
Can I please turn the air on?

293
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:53,340
And one of my friends looked at me and he was like, I mean, he lit into me.

294
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,060
And I was like, he's right.

295
00:17:56,060 --> 00:18:06,160
So there was definitely these negative expressions of this childhood vow that cost my family that I am ashamed of.

296
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,320
So anyway, so I'm looking at my Roth IRA returns.

297
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,160
I'm looking at some of my other retirement returns.

298
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:19,540
And I'm like, at the same time, Beth grew up with Joel Bumgar.

299
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No way.

300
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:22,640
Shout out to Joel.

301
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:24,920
They were in youth group together.

302
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,040
Get out of here.

303
00:18:26,060 --> 00:18:30,560
And Joel's been very successful.

304
00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,060
He's a hard worker.

305
00:18:32,060 --> 00:18:38,060
He built a business for 10 years, from the decade of 00 to 10,

306
00:18:38,060 --> 00:18:50,763
he was the only company in Mississippi that grew 100 per year for 10 straight years Oh my gosh He extremely brilliant Well he sold his company and he public about this

307
00:18:50,843 --> 00:18:52,403
He gave a ton of that money away.

308
00:18:52,523 --> 00:18:53,643
He just gave it away.

309
00:18:54,183 --> 00:18:54,283
Yeah.

310
00:18:54,403 --> 00:18:56,023
And then he ran for office.

311
00:18:56,303 --> 00:18:58,163
He was an eight-year Mississippi State,

312
00:18:58,543 --> 00:18:59,723
state of Mississippi representative,

313
00:19:00,343 --> 00:19:02,203
and then he discovered Bitcoin.

314
00:19:02,203 --> 00:19:05,283
Well, Joel is just, when the ETFs got approved in January,

315
00:19:05,283 --> 00:19:13,463
he just starts posting on Facebook every single day about this thing.

316
00:19:13,563 --> 00:19:17,783
And I'm like, and I'm just like, what is this thing that he keeps talking about?

317
00:19:17,863 --> 00:19:19,483
It's wearing me out, you know?

318
00:19:20,103 --> 00:19:26,023
And I was like, the problem is Joel's conviction unnerved me a little bit

319
00:19:26,023 --> 00:19:29,303
because I was like, here's a guy I trust a lot.

320
00:19:29,303 --> 00:19:35,523
here's a guy who's 100% dedicated first and foremost to Jesus.

321
00:19:37,043 --> 00:19:40,383
And here's a guy that's technically very savvy.

322
00:19:40,663 --> 00:19:43,943
I mean, he built computers down to the circuits.

323
00:19:44,343 --> 00:19:47,103
I mean, and so he's talking about this thing.

324
00:19:47,103 --> 00:19:49,703
And all of a sudden, so I'm looking at my returns on my Roth,

325
00:19:49,763 --> 00:19:51,083
and he's talking about this Bitcoin thing.

326
00:19:51,143 --> 00:19:53,403
And I'm like, I need to look at this.

327
00:19:53,403 --> 00:20:02,143
so for about six weeks i just read everything he had i watched all of his videos i watched all the

328
00:20:02,143 --> 00:20:08,103
videos he recommended this was in about march of last year and this is what happened within a week

329
00:20:08,103 --> 00:20:16,803
of me like it clicking for me and it going i can't unsee yep the history of money the history of fiat

330
00:20:16,803 --> 00:20:23,443
currency, what is the nature of money, how is fiat, you know, debasement, inflation, everything

331
00:20:23,443 --> 00:20:29,063
that I've been reading. I was like, I can't unsee all of that. At the same time, my wife gets

332
00:20:29,063 --> 00:20:35,363
diagnosed with stage three cancer, right in the middle of that. And so we're in the middle of this

333
00:20:35,363 --> 00:20:41,263
orange pilling moment, Beth gets diagnosed with stage three cancer, and we kind of have a discussion.

334
00:20:41,263 --> 00:20:46,103
She's like, I was like, baby, we're about to go all in on Bitcoin.

335
00:20:46,923 --> 00:20:52,063
Like, you know, and she's like, we had had a Zoom with Joel, Beth, and I together.

336
00:20:52,383 --> 00:20:53,163
We did that.

337
00:20:53,263 --> 00:20:54,323
I said, hey, let's sit down together.

338
00:20:55,103 --> 00:21:00,083
He spent over an hour with us just kind of talking through all the different concerns there.

339
00:21:01,063 --> 00:21:03,823
And so what happened was Beth's diagnosed with state-free cancer.

340
00:21:05,043 --> 00:21:10,723
I needed a healthier, I needed a healthy way to deal with that.

341
00:21:11,263 --> 00:21:27,763
And so I began to study Bitcoin on my off time at night and evenings, hundreds of hours studying, reading, listening to podcasts, connecting with guys like you and Tim Fox and Jim at Magnalia.

342
00:21:28,663 --> 00:21:32,723
And so I just plunged in as far as like, what is this understanding this?

343
00:21:34,743 --> 00:21:36,883
And that happened kind of throughout the summer.

344
00:21:36,883 --> 00:21:55,183
And then in October of 24, somewhere in there, September, October, BlackRock comes out with their paper essentially promoting or might say like recommending that all portfolios have some percentage of allocation towards Bitcoin.

345
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And I kind of went, that is big.

346
00:21:59,543 --> 00:22:01,123
And then it hit me.

347
00:22:01,723 --> 00:22:03,783
It hit me like, wait a minute.

348
00:22:03,783 --> 00:22:10,883
we should study this the institution of the church we should study this

349
00:22:10,883 --> 00:22:17,483
yeah this is this is something that i have a personal conviction about but now we have

350
00:22:17,483 --> 00:22:25,583
the largest asset manager in the world producing a paper that says you might want to look into this

351
00:22:25,583 --> 00:22:31,703
yeah so i literally cooked up that overture and i'll explain if you'd like me to i can explain

352
00:22:31,703 --> 00:22:32,543
kind of an overture.

353
00:22:32,983 --> 00:22:33,363
Yeah, exactly.

354
00:22:33,503 --> 00:22:34,463
Explain what that is for folks.

355
00:22:34,643 --> 00:22:34,783
Yeah.

356
00:22:34,943 --> 00:22:42,583
So in the PCA, we have a book of church order, for example.

357
00:22:44,183 --> 00:22:49,103
And if you would like to see changes made to that book of church order, or you would

358
00:22:49,103 --> 00:22:56,683
like the denomination to study a specific subject that's related to the health of the

359
00:22:56,683 --> 00:23:05,783
church, for example, or some sort of theological, you know, doctrinal aberrations that are floating

360
00:23:05,783 --> 00:23:12,563
out there in society that we would like to study and address. The way you do that is you write

361
00:23:12,563 --> 00:23:18,543
what's called an overture and you say, you know, I would like the General Assembly to consider

362
00:23:18,543 --> 00:23:24,083
making this change in the Book of Church order. For example, we make little tweaks to the BCO

363
00:23:24,083 --> 00:23:29,503
often because we have a judicial case and we feel like we realize we got a gap or we got a

364
00:23:29,503 --> 00:23:33,943
loophole somewhere. We need to kind of close that in and stuff like that. Okay. Just real quick,

365
00:23:34,023 --> 00:23:38,243
back up a little bit and kind of describe what, what kind of stuff is in the book of church order.

366
00:23:38,243 --> 00:23:43,143
Is it, is it like theological stuff? Is it like cases of stuff that's happened? What does it look

367
00:23:43,143 --> 00:23:49,703
like? Yeah. So, you know, there's, you know, there's our system of, it's our system of government.

368
00:23:49,703 --> 00:24:01,283
So it's like how, you know, how you ordain pastors, what are sessions, what is session meeting, how often should you have sessions as elders?

369
00:24:02,163 --> 00:24:06,443
How do you, and then you've got like discipline cases.

370
00:24:06,443 --> 00:24:14,363
is how do you handle a pastor who's committed a sin or is in theological error,

371
00:24:14,363 --> 00:24:20,123
or how does a congregant file a complaint against the action of a session?

372
00:24:20,683 --> 00:24:23,263
And you have the Director of Public Worship, Part 3.

373
00:24:23,463 --> 00:24:25,243
Some of it is binding with the sacraments.

374
00:24:25,503 --> 00:24:29,223
Some of it is just beautiful language on what worship looks like.

375
00:24:29,303 --> 00:24:32,803
And so that's the bulk of our book of church order.

376
00:24:32,803 --> 00:24:38,463
And it's a thing that we take vows to.

377
00:24:38,623 --> 00:24:41,143
We basically say, hey, we're going to work this way.

378
00:24:41,283 --> 00:24:49,223
And if we want to change things, we can bring these overtures through a presbytery.

379
00:24:49,223 --> 00:24:55,283
So I wrote this overture in December and I sent it to my presbytery.

380
00:24:55,283 --> 00:25:09,723
And the overture was to encourage churches, presbyteries, and our denominational agencies to study the wisdom of including Bitcoin in their respective balance sheets.

381
00:25:10,023 --> 00:25:12,563
That was the overture.

382
00:25:12,683 --> 00:25:17,603
And then you have all of these whereases, which is kind of the rationale for why you think that's a good idea.

383
00:25:17,823 --> 00:25:19,023
You might quote the BCO.

384
00:25:19,303 --> 00:25:20,983
You might quote the Westminster Confession.

385
00:25:21,103 --> 00:25:21,703
You quote the Bible.

386
00:25:22,403 --> 00:25:24,283
You might quote current research.

387
00:25:24,283 --> 00:25:35,123
And so it's kind of a one-sheet executive summary of the subject matter that you would like for our denomination to consider.

388
00:25:35,123 --> 00:25:54,963
So it comes to our presbytery and it actually passed our presbytery in January of 25, which means it will automatically go to the overtures committee at General Assembly that meets two days before the General Assembly.

389
00:25:54,963 --> 00:26:14,603
So you have all of these overtures that come from all of these different presbyteries that could be dealing with different changes, proposed changes to our books to Georgia, could be dealing with, you know, again, these theological doctrinal studies that you would like to see done, things like that.

390
00:26:14,603 --> 00:26:18,223
They all come together, Overtures Committee, two days before General Assembly.

391
00:26:18,403 --> 00:26:23,343
And General Assembly is kind of the national meeting of our denomination.

392
00:26:24,683 --> 00:26:33,883
Coincidentally, or you might say providentially, I actually happened to be the Overtures Representative for our Presbytery this year.

393
00:26:35,503 --> 00:26:41,763
I'd actually been elected in 24, but when my wife got diagnosed with cancer, I didn't go to General Assembly.

394
00:26:41,763 --> 00:26:43,923
So they delayed my appointment for a year.

395
00:26:44,623 --> 00:26:50,023
Anyway, so, and you can jump in and interrupt questions.

396
00:26:50,023 --> 00:26:58,943
What I was just going to say is give us like two or three examples of other overtures that maybe have been implemented into the BCO or maybe that haven't.

397
00:26:59,303 --> 00:27:04,243
Or just what are some issues that in the past few years that have gotten their own overture?

398
00:27:05,463 --> 00:27:09,663
Man, it's really, it could be micro or it could be macro.

399
00:27:09,663 --> 00:27:19,623
It can be micro on, hey, we did a study and we actually think two-thirds of people need to be present instead of three-fourths on this particular kind of boat.

400
00:27:19,623 --> 00:27:37,403
It could be, you know, clarifying, you know, like we did one a couple of years ago to kind of cement the chaplain status, our military chaplain status.

401
00:27:37,403 --> 00:27:49,263
And that gave them a better freedom and a better kind of, how do I say it, status with the military.

402
00:27:49,903 --> 00:27:54,843
Because we as their denomination endorsed, hey, this is their status.

403
00:27:55,123 --> 00:27:56,443
And so they needed that.

404
00:27:56,643 --> 00:27:59,823
And for us, so it's all those kinds of, that's a macro thing.

405
00:27:59,903 --> 00:28:00,923
You got a micro thing.

406
00:28:01,883 --> 00:28:05,843
And, you know, so you got all those kind of, we had 40 overtures this year.

407
00:28:06,183 --> 00:28:06,663
Yeah.

408
00:28:06,663 --> 00:28:15,163
But what happens at Overtures is, yeah, they all come together, and then we end up probably consolidating 10 down to 1 because they're the same subject.

409
00:28:15,903 --> 00:28:15,923
Yeah.

410
00:28:15,923 --> 00:28:26,903
Yeah, the thing I would point out, because I'm sure we have people who are from different denominational backgrounds, so there's people I'm sure who are listening to this who are thinking to themselves, oh my gosh, do you really need all that?

411
00:28:26,903 --> 00:28:35,603
And I think the thing that I have come to just appreciate, again, different denominations emphasize different aspects of the character of God.

412
00:28:35,603 --> 00:29:05,583
And one of the things that Presbyterians do really well is just the order of God. There's order and intentionality. And so a desire for there to be careful thought for everything that we do in representing God as the church and as his shepherds, if you're a pastor, there's a lot of care that goes into, and a lot of thought that goes into making sure that we're able to love our neighbor.

413
00:29:05,603 --> 00:29:19,123
You know, we're able to take this broad thing that everyone would agree with, love God and love your neighbor, and then flesh that out in ways that are biblically informed and that are historically informed and a lot of things like that.

414
00:29:19,123 --> 00:29:36,203
So there can obviously, you know, there's no system, whether it's a congregational system or a Presbyterian system or, you know, whatever kind of system, no system in and of itself is this, you know, can ensure that stuff can't go wrong or that there won't be abuses or that they're like that.

415
00:29:36,283 --> 00:29:45,103
That doesn't happen. But this this is one system that has the tradeoffs that that come with it has been effective.

416
00:29:45,103 --> 00:30:10,283
Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, it's one of the reasons why I'm Presbyterian is you're not in reaction mode. You're in prayerful, thoughtful response mode with the collective wisdom of other churches and presbyteries. There's a real connection there.

417
00:30:10,283 --> 00:30:19,523
Yep. You know, and it's interesting. We get we get, you know, criticized because we kind of slow acting.

418
00:30:19,763 --> 00:30:28,603
But like, you know, there's business literature that says if you want to if you want overnight change in the business, that's a 10 year process.

419
00:30:28,983 --> 00:30:36,363
Yep. I mean, the research is true. And so I'm like, well, if it takes us 12 to 18 months to go from A to B.

420
00:30:36,643 --> 00:30:39,103
Yep. But A, we we get there together.

421
00:30:39,103 --> 00:30:45,743
and B, we get there thoughtfully and prayerfully with wisdom, I'll do that. That's what I want.

422
00:30:46,443 --> 00:30:51,563
Yeah. One of the things that comes to mind on that front, again, for the biblicists,

423
00:30:51,563 --> 00:30:59,403
because one of the concerns, I grew up in circles where a lot of the, there would be criticism of

424
00:30:59,403 --> 00:31:05,543
extra biblical things being put on to, put in practice by churches. And so somebody there,

425
00:31:05,543 --> 00:31:09,803
You could definitely have people who are like, oh, Book of Common Order, that wasn't inspired by Scripture.

426
00:31:10,743 --> 00:31:11,663
You know, whatever.

427
00:31:11,803 --> 00:31:13,963
They could see this as being something that's problematic.

428
00:31:14,543 --> 00:31:25,123
But I think that, yeah, there's tons of Scriptures that talk about the need for order and the wisdom that's found in abundance of counselors.

429
00:31:25,643 --> 00:31:31,883
The wisdom of, you know, not being hasty and not making decisions quickly.

430
00:31:32,303 --> 00:31:34,723
And one of the things that the Scriptures talk about is that God is—

431
00:31:34,723 --> 00:31:35,983
Being sober-minded.

432
00:31:36,003 --> 00:31:36,563
Being sober-minded.

433
00:31:36,843 --> 00:31:40,263
So what that requires is getting some distance from events.

434
00:31:40,703 --> 00:31:45,943
You don't want to be making big decisions right after something emotional has happened.

435
00:31:47,023 --> 00:31:53,923
And I think one of the other things that God talks about and it's reflected in his character is that he's slow to anger.

436
00:31:53,923 --> 00:32:00,663
and so one of the things that is easy and we're talking about this two days from two days removed

437
00:32:00,663 --> 00:32:05,783
from Charlie Kirk being killed three or four days removed from the the Ukrainian refugee lady

438
00:32:05,783 --> 00:32:13,323
being being killed one of the things that it's easy to do is to be swift to anger and then the

439
00:32:13,323 --> 00:32:20,043
part of the problem when the weakness of being of being swift to anger fast to get angry is that it

440
00:32:20,043 --> 00:32:27,043
can go as easy as it comes. And so in the, what's your response can, it's easy to forget about it

441
00:32:27,043 --> 00:32:34,563
just as easy as it comes. And so if you're grounding your anger in eternal things, things

442
00:32:34,563 --> 00:32:40,323
that God calls sin and things that God says that are going to cause problems, that we have this

443
00:32:40,323 --> 00:32:47,583
recorded for generations, we have these things recorded and written down, then our anger has more

444
00:32:47,583 --> 00:32:54,503
of a grounding to endure and to not just be forgotten. And so I think that this is something,

445
00:32:54,703 --> 00:32:59,303
again, even though it can be frustrating and we can get to an example of some of the frustrating

446
00:32:59,303 --> 00:33:05,163
consequences of when things don't go the way that we initially, the way that they're supposed to go

447
00:33:05,163 --> 00:33:13,443
or the way that maybe we wanted them to go. Overall, this idea of being slow to anger,

448
00:33:13,443 --> 00:33:29,263
But then once you get angry, once you figure out what's going on, then you have this, this, you know, burning heart that has this propulsive power to stay there and to, to be immovable, uh, in, in trying to do what's right.

449
00:33:29,263 --> 00:33:34,843
And so, again, I would just encourage people who think that this is overkill and that kind of stuff.

450
00:33:34,903 --> 00:33:42,183
I would encourage them to, uh, to be, to, to be slower, to, to, uh, to dismiss something that seems different.

451
00:33:42,183 --> 00:33:52,023
Yeah, I mean, all I have to do is look at my own heart and 90% of the time I don't have a great reaction.

452
00:33:52,703 --> 00:33:52,823
Yep.

453
00:33:52,983 --> 00:33:57,863
But I'm called to a holy passion that is sober minded.

454
00:33:58,723 --> 00:34:00,783
So, you know, will you call an anger?

455
00:34:00,883 --> 00:34:02,823
I might call holy passion, you know, whatever.

456
00:34:02,823 --> 00:34:11,543
I mean, if I've got a longstanding holy passion to see, you know, the curse reversed, that's a beautiful thing.

457
00:34:11,543 --> 00:34:19,403
I'm entrenched in that and I'm gonna work that methodically you know evil's entrenched but so am

458
00:34:19,403 --> 00:34:31,763
I you know so are we and so is God you know so yeah so you know I again I'm going to do my best

459
00:34:31,763 --> 00:34:38,043
to work in the process are there moments are there moments where a quick response is is needed of

460
00:34:38,043 --> 00:34:38,503
Of course.

461
00:34:39,003 --> 00:34:43,803
I'm also a volunteer chaplain with College Station Police Department,

462
00:34:43,803 --> 00:34:46,223
and I get a call at 2 a.m.

463
00:34:48,183 --> 00:34:51,963
You know, we've got to make a death notification on a bad situation

464
00:34:51,963 --> 00:34:53,423
or we've got a suicide.

465
00:34:53,843 --> 00:34:59,123
And, like, there needs to be a quick kind of crisis response moment

466
00:34:59,123 --> 00:35:01,163
in those kind of things.

467
00:35:01,163 --> 00:35:10,263
Uh, but your, your day in and day out life is trying to weave in these, uh, weave in these

468
00:35:10,263 --> 00:35:11,923
holy good passions.

469
00:35:12,283 --> 00:35:12,683
Yeah.

470
00:35:13,043 --> 00:35:13,323
So.

471
00:35:14,003 --> 00:35:14,123
Yeah.

472
00:35:14,183 --> 00:35:17,383
One of the things, again, we, we haven't hung out a ton, right?

473
00:35:17,403 --> 00:35:20,123
We've been putting it a number of times and we've had a bunch more calls.

474
00:35:20,763 --> 00:35:23,683
And I mean, I just have been so encouraged by you.

475
00:35:23,743 --> 00:35:23,883
Yeah.

476
00:35:23,903 --> 00:35:28,363
You like getting to hang out with you at the, the Bitcoin conference in Vegas was the highlight.

477
00:35:28,363 --> 00:35:29,503
I've said this to multiple people.

478
00:35:29,503 --> 00:35:39,923
It was the highlight for me because one of the things that comes across within the Bitcoin world, especially for most of the early adopters, a lot of them were very technical people.

479
00:35:40,083 --> 00:35:41,323
They're very hyper-technical.

480
00:35:42,383 --> 00:35:43,523
They are programmers.

481
00:35:43,943 --> 00:35:47,383
They're philosophers and all this kind of stuff.

482
00:35:47,563 --> 00:35:58,643
They were super – you had to be super nerdy in order to be able to understand and operate and deal with the really difficult-to-manage wallet systems and all kinds of stuff early on.

483
00:35:58,643 --> 00:36:17,483
And then as time goes on, you get more and more people who come from different backgrounds, who aren't necessarily the technical people, but who basically approach things from, approach Bitcoin from a different, motivated by a different thing and drawn to a different aspect of Bitcoin.

484
00:36:17,483 --> 00:36:39,083
And so when I, I mean, just your passion for people and your passion for the Lord and your desire to see, you know, basically God's resources be stewarded in ways that are going to allow, I mean, orders of magnitude more people to hear the gospel.

485
00:36:39,083 --> 00:36:41,743
for orders of magnitude more ministers

486
00:36:41,743 --> 00:36:43,103
to continue to be able to work

487
00:36:43,103 --> 00:36:44,563
and not have to shut down their churches

488
00:36:44,563 --> 00:36:46,583
or not have to seek out second or third jobs.

489
00:36:47,803 --> 00:36:49,623
I just have seen that in you

490
00:36:49,623 --> 00:36:51,063
and you're incredibly eloquent.

491
00:36:51,323 --> 00:36:53,243
Plus you also have your secret weapon

492
00:36:53,243 --> 00:36:55,783
of that awesome Mississippi accent.

493
00:36:55,903 --> 00:36:56,763
I just find myself like,

494
00:36:56,843 --> 00:36:58,043
man, it would be so much easier

495
00:36:58,043 --> 00:36:59,123
to convince certain people

496
00:36:59,123 --> 00:37:00,003
if I had that accent.

497
00:37:00,163 --> 00:37:00,583
Daggone it.

498
00:37:01,403 --> 00:37:03,043
But no, but at the same time,

499
00:37:03,103 --> 00:37:04,023
I just want you to know,

500
00:37:04,103 --> 00:37:05,443
I just really appreciate you.

501
00:37:06,003 --> 00:37:08,943
And yeah, I just, I really think

502
00:37:09,083 --> 00:37:15,763
that it's a timely thing, right? I think the two of us, I'm a similar heart and mindset. I don't

503
00:37:15,763 --> 00:37:22,163
have the programming skills. I tried to use ChatGP to program a website and it was atrocious.

504
00:37:22,243 --> 00:37:35,986
It was bad But I do have the pastor heart and I see and prioritize these that you do Uh and and I really think I just have been super encouraged to have have you another

505
00:37:35,986 --> 00:37:42,366
another, you know, laborer in the, in the nuts, the bullpen. What's the, uh, in the, during a war

506
00:37:42,366 --> 00:37:48,106
in the trenches, that's the word to have another, you know, similarly minded brother in the trenches.

507
00:37:48,286 --> 00:37:51,886
Uh, it's just been a great encouragement to me. So, so kind of, why don't you talk through

508
00:37:51,886 --> 00:37:54,886
Ben Forrest, I mean, you put forward this overture.

509
00:37:55,026 --> 00:37:55,526
How did it go?

510
00:37:56,586 --> 00:37:59,926
Well, you know, let me just say,

511
00:38:00,046 --> 00:38:03,706
I was under no illusion that this overture was going to pass.

512
00:38:04,086 --> 00:38:05,806
Just be very clear about that.

513
00:38:06,326 --> 00:38:10,066
I was not like, I mean, I knew it had no chance.

514
00:38:10,066 --> 00:38:17,026
But honestly, my goal was to get it passed at Presbytery

515
00:38:17,026 --> 00:38:20,286
because once it did in January, it went national.

516
00:38:20,966 --> 00:38:21,626
It didn't matter.

517
00:38:21,626 --> 00:38:27,126
It was immediately posted to the stated clerk's website as an overture that would be considered general assembly.

518
00:38:27,466 --> 00:38:27,966
That's a win.

519
00:38:28,486 --> 00:38:28,966
That's it.

520
00:38:29,626 --> 00:38:33,666
And then that gave us the opportunity for the foundation.

521
00:38:33,806 --> 00:38:38,326
I'm also working with Jim and Tim with Magnalia to say, hey, let's get a booth.

522
00:38:38,406 --> 00:38:39,346
Let's try to get a booth.

523
00:38:39,586 --> 00:38:40,526
This thing's going to die.

524
00:38:40,626 --> 00:38:41,126
It's okay.

525
00:38:41,206 --> 00:38:42,586
But is it going to create conversation?

526
00:38:43,146 --> 00:38:44,146
I think it might.

527
00:38:44,266 --> 00:38:46,206
I'm not sure, but I think it might.

528
00:38:46,746 --> 00:38:47,866
So we get to overture.

529
00:38:47,946 --> 00:38:48,806
We get to general assembly.

530
00:38:48,806 --> 00:38:51,646
this is mid-June, and I'm on overtures committee.

531
00:38:52,426 --> 00:38:56,786
And the way they arrange the overtures is, I mean, most important to least important,

532
00:38:56,886 --> 00:38:58,646
or most urgent to least urgent.

533
00:38:59,026 --> 00:39:04,826
So most urgent are kind of your rules of assembly operation changes that need to happen at that assembly.

534
00:39:05,046 --> 00:39:09,966
Then you have kind of your prioritized book of church order changes based on the number of Presbyterians

535
00:39:09,966 --> 00:39:12,366
that are wanting to speak into that particular thing.

536
00:39:12,406 --> 00:39:14,006
And then the study committees kind of come last.

537
00:39:14,566 --> 00:39:16,866
So I knew that, and that was fine.

538
00:39:16,866 --> 00:39:23,326
And so we were at the, you know, the ninth hour on Tuesday after two long days of going through 40 overtures.

539
00:39:23,586 --> 00:39:25,866
And so I get my opportunity to speak.

540
00:39:26,706 --> 00:39:35,006
And I had written my speech and I had a lot of really wise people help me craft that speech.

541
00:39:35,186 --> 00:39:41,826
Some guys from traditional finance, actually, who have become big corners are like, hey, you want to talk in these ways.

542
00:39:41,946 --> 00:39:45,266
And so I just did whatever they told me to do and had kind of my own flavor to it.

543
00:39:45,266 --> 00:39:47,426
I gave my speech, got voted.

544
00:39:47,806 --> 00:39:52,906
I think it was like 100, 106 to 15 in overtures.

545
00:39:52,906 --> 00:39:57,206
And I was like, my first thought was, where are these 15 rascals at?

546
00:39:57,406 --> 00:40:00,966
You know, that haven't, like, no, this is the other thing, Jordan.

547
00:40:01,086 --> 00:40:04,226
Leading up to GA, I felt lonely.

548
00:40:04,586 --> 00:40:08,286
I mean, I was like, I got no calls from anybody.

549
00:40:08,566 --> 00:40:14,606
I might have got a text from somebody saying, you know, hey, I'm a Bitcoin or two in the PCA.

550
00:40:14,606 --> 00:40:20,726
And I want to know, you know, I might've got a couple of those, but I was like, is anybody around here?

551
00:40:20,966 --> 00:40:21,926
Am I back?

552
00:40:22,026 --> 00:40:28,086
I mean, I know I'm a little crazy, but like, and so these guys come up to me like, yeah, I'm a big corner.

553
00:40:28,246 --> 00:40:28,366
I bet.

554
00:40:28,466 --> 00:40:29,906
I'm like, where have you been?

555
00:40:30,186 --> 00:40:42,706
You know, I was just like, and no, I mean, because I will say, man, you know, I knew, I knew that I was throwing.

556
00:40:42,706 --> 00:40:50,006
21 years of ordained ministry in the PCA and trust and friendships and networks that I'd built

557
00:40:50,006 --> 00:40:55,966
on the line because this would be out of nowhere for tons of groups of my friends. Like,

558
00:40:55,966 --> 00:41:02,066
what are you thinking, Haley? And I knew that and I was just like, I don't care. It's the thing,

559
00:41:02,266 --> 00:41:08,926
I really do believe. I really do believe in this thing. I studied it for hundreds of hours and I've

560
00:41:08,926 --> 00:41:14,226
surrounded myself with people who understand it better than me that I trust. And so, so that was

561
00:41:14,226 --> 00:41:17,626
fun though. Those guys came up to me and they're like, and I'm like, are you coming to our meetups

562
00:41:17,626 --> 00:41:23,146
or whatever? And they're like, oh yeah, we signed up. I'm like, you know, and so then we get, so GA,

563
00:41:23,426 --> 00:41:27,926
we got a couple of days there at a table before it comes up on to the main floor. But anyway,

564
00:41:27,926 --> 00:41:36,126
our table was nonstop. I mean, people coming by like crazy. And so anyway, you know, we,

565
00:41:36,126 --> 00:41:41,486
we get to the floor and there was a technical snafu where Tim didn't get to

566
00:41:41,486 --> 00:41:43,706
speak to it for the record.

567
00:41:43,926 --> 00:41:50,086
I already have an overture to modify the rules of assembly operations to give

568
00:41:50,086 --> 00:41:50,766
deferential,

569
00:41:50,766 --> 00:41:52,766
deferential treatment,

570
00:41:53,146 --> 00:41:58,586
preferential treatment to the man who pulls the overture out of omnibus.

571
00:41:58,866 --> 00:41:59,666
We can talk about that later.

572
00:41:59,766 --> 00:42:00,826
I'm just saying it's coming.

573
00:42:00,926 --> 00:42:02,126
Everybody is coming.

574
00:42:02,306 --> 00:42:05,046
I'm coming with another overture just on that technical piece.

575
00:42:05,046 --> 00:42:05,546
Cause I'm like,

576
00:42:05,546 --> 00:42:07,026
But anyway, it was—

577
00:42:07,026 --> 00:42:09,166
Yeah, can you just describe—just describe.

578
00:42:09,286 --> 00:42:10,386
We'll get into there.

579
00:42:10,466 --> 00:42:11,686
Like, what exactly happened?

580
00:42:11,686 --> 00:42:19,226
What happened was when the Overture's chairman brings his report to the General Assembly,

581
00:42:19,426 --> 00:42:23,946
which is, let's say, 2,200 teaching elders and ruling elders in the big hall.

582
00:42:24,846 --> 00:42:28,586
When he brings his report, one of the things he does first is he said,

583
00:42:28,586 --> 00:42:30,566
these 20 overtures

584
00:42:30,566 --> 00:42:32,806
were either overwhelmingly

585
00:42:32,806 --> 00:42:35,146
recommended

586
00:42:35,146 --> 00:42:37,006
that General Assembly

587
00:42:37,006 --> 00:42:38,546
answered in the positive, or

588
00:42:38,546 --> 00:42:40,726
these overtures were overwhelmingly

589
00:42:40,726 --> 00:42:42,546
recommended to be answered

590
00:42:42,546 --> 00:42:44,586
in the negative. And what

591
00:42:44,586 --> 00:42:46,526
he does is he puts all those in what's called an

592
00:42:46,526 --> 00:42:48,726
omnibus, which means you take one vote

593
00:42:48,726 --> 00:42:50,586
on those 20 overtures.

594
00:42:51,606 --> 00:42:52,346
Sure. But

595
00:42:52,346 --> 00:42:54,446
any one delegate

596
00:42:54,446 --> 00:42:56,646
can stand up and say, I would

597
00:42:56,646 --> 00:42:58,006
like to pull out

598
00:42:58,006 --> 00:43:01,566
Overture 11, which was the number of our Overture.

599
00:43:01,886 --> 00:43:03,426
So Tim stood up.

600
00:43:04,386 --> 00:43:06,566
Tim's a fellow teaching elder in the PCA.

601
00:43:06,646 --> 00:43:07,726
He was a registered delegate.

602
00:43:08,146 --> 00:43:11,086
He stood up and he said, I would like for Overture 11 to be pulled out.

603
00:43:11,166 --> 00:43:13,186
And then somebody says Overture 18 or whatever.

604
00:43:13,426 --> 00:43:14,826
And those have to be considered.

605
00:43:14,826 --> 00:43:19,026
Like, in other words, if one brother wants the General Assembly to consider it,

606
00:43:19,186 --> 00:43:19,946
we have to consider it.

607
00:43:20,006 --> 00:43:23,486
So what happened was we come back, we deal with like the big dog Overtures

608
00:43:23,486 --> 00:43:27,786
that were kind of, you know, spicy.

609
00:43:28,006 --> 00:43:29,526
You know, we deal with some of those.

610
00:43:29,866 --> 00:43:32,986
We're three hours, four hours, five hours into that process.

611
00:43:33,146 --> 00:43:34,026
Everybody's exhausted.

612
00:43:34,186 --> 00:43:35,266
It's four o'clock on Thursday.

613
00:43:36,066 --> 00:43:40,246
And we come back to the overtures that had been pulled out of Omnibus, to be considered.

614
00:43:40,486 --> 00:43:41,746
We come back to Overture 11.

615
00:43:43,326 --> 00:43:46,006
And a brother stands up at a mic, and he says—

616
00:43:46,786 --> 00:43:48,586
Tim is at another mic.

617
00:43:48,726 --> 00:43:49,126
He's like—

618
00:43:49,126 --> 00:43:49,846
Tim is at a mic.

619
00:43:50,186 --> 00:43:50,966
Tim is at a mic.

620
00:43:51,106 --> 00:43:51,946
How many mics do they have?

621
00:43:51,986 --> 00:43:52,826
There's like five or six?

622
00:43:53,266 --> 00:43:54,306
About six, yeah.

623
00:43:54,406 --> 00:43:54,566
Yeah.

624
00:43:55,526 --> 00:43:57,206
And six mics.

625
00:43:57,206 --> 00:43:57,446
Six mics.

626
00:43:58,006 --> 00:44:00,406
So brother's standing up there front at Mike two.

627
00:44:00,526 --> 00:44:04,026
Tim's back here at like Mike four on the floor.

628
00:44:04,226 --> 00:44:08,066
And the moderator recognizes Mike two first.

629
00:44:08,066 --> 00:44:14,926
And that brother rises to call the question, which means immediately go to the to a vote.

630
00:44:15,026 --> 00:44:16,806
No debate, no discussion.

631
00:44:19,046 --> 00:44:22,126
And I'll be honest, I was shocked.

632
00:44:22,366 --> 00:44:27,246
I had never seen that happen in General Assembly in my 20 years.

633
00:44:27,246 --> 00:44:37,106
I'd never seen someone rise to call the question on an overture that had been previously in good faith pulled out by a brother.

634
00:44:37,106 --> 00:44:37,246
Yeah.

635
00:44:37,966 --> 00:44:38,186
Right.

636
00:44:38,246 --> 00:44:38,966
To be considered.

637
00:44:39,886 --> 00:44:42,086
And because I think two reasons.

638
00:44:42,206 --> 00:44:45,866
Because the assembly doesn't understand Bitcoin and because they were dog tired.

639
00:44:46,306 --> 00:44:46,526
Yeah.

640
00:44:46,886 --> 00:44:51,226
They overwhelmingly voted to call the question and therefore Tim did not get to speak.

641
00:44:51,806 --> 00:44:52,006
Yeah.

642
00:44:52,446 --> 00:44:56,226
So I have an overture coming this year.

643
00:44:56,226 --> 00:45:00,346
to modify the rules of assembly operations

644
00:45:00,346 --> 00:45:04,146
so that if a brother pulls an item,

645
00:45:04,246 --> 00:45:05,566
an overture out of omnibus,

646
00:45:05,746 --> 00:45:07,586
he will get preferential treatment

647
00:45:07,586 --> 00:45:09,226
to speak to that item.

648
00:45:09,486 --> 00:45:10,126
Hope it passes.

649
00:45:10,806 --> 00:45:13,586
I've talked to a lot of my big dog friends in PCA

650
00:45:13,586 --> 00:45:14,646
and they're like, you got to ride it.

651
00:45:14,706 --> 00:45:15,246
You got to do it.

652
00:45:15,306 --> 00:45:15,986
I was like, it's coming.

653
00:45:16,566 --> 00:45:17,206
So there you go.

654
00:45:17,746 --> 00:45:18,306
So, okay.

655
00:45:18,426 --> 00:45:20,626
So now again, we're the Lord is offering.

656
00:45:20,626 --> 00:45:21,346
We're getting in the weeds.

657
00:45:21,506 --> 00:45:22,306
I know we're getting in the weeds.

658
00:45:22,326 --> 00:45:23,006
No, this is great.

659
00:45:23,126 --> 00:45:23,766
Weeds are great.

660
00:45:23,866 --> 00:45:24,586
This is a podcast.

661
00:45:24,906 --> 00:45:25,526
Weeds are great.

662
00:45:25,746 --> 00:45:25,906
Great.

663
00:45:25,906 --> 00:45:29,426
But, okay, so now again, we're Christians, we give grace.

664
00:45:29,986 --> 00:45:30,226
Yeah.

665
00:45:30,926 --> 00:45:32,606
Whose fault was this?

666
00:45:32,806 --> 00:45:34,026
Was this Kevin DeYoung?

667
00:45:34,366 --> 00:45:36,586
Who technically in the moment, whose fault was it?

668
00:45:36,746 --> 00:45:37,886
This is the issue.

669
00:45:38,666 --> 00:45:44,066
There's no fault because technically the moderator,

670
00:45:45,726 --> 00:45:48,466
it's whoever he recognizes is the mic first.

671
00:45:48,906 --> 00:45:49,006
Yeah.

672
00:45:49,506 --> 00:45:51,786
And I'm just saying we can fix that loophole,

673
00:45:51,786 --> 00:45:56,206
and I want to fix that for future overtures

674
00:45:56,206 --> 00:45:58,306
that have anything to do with anything.

675
00:45:58,626 --> 00:45:59,326
Like, no, no, no, no, no.

676
00:45:59,326 --> 00:46:01,166
We pulled it out with the assumption

677
00:46:01,166 --> 00:46:02,906
that the brother was going to get to speak to it.

678
00:46:02,986 --> 00:46:03,886
So we got to fix that.

679
00:46:04,466 --> 00:46:04,546
Yeah.

680
00:46:04,906 --> 00:46:07,026
So you're saying it just was,

681
00:46:07,186 --> 00:46:08,486
there was a couple of mics,

682
00:46:08,546 --> 00:46:11,306
a couple of mics that Kevin Young could have recognized.

683
00:46:11,606 --> 00:46:12,006
That's right.

684
00:46:12,326 --> 00:46:14,706
And so it just was, he just happened to pick this guy.

685
00:46:15,006 --> 00:46:15,346
That's right.

686
00:46:15,366 --> 00:46:17,066
You know, it wasn't like malicious on his part.

687
00:46:17,206 --> 00:46:18,686
I don't read Motive into that at all.

688
00:46:18,706 --> 00:46:18,846
Yeah.

689
00:46:18,846 --> 00:46:20,746
But it did actually happen twice.

690
00:46:20,746 --> 00:46:25,706
and then another brother stood up and said he said exactly what i just said which was like yeah

691
00:46:25,706 --> 00:46:30,646
brothers the spirit hears that if if a brother pulls out an overture you should be able to speak

692
00:46:30,646 --> 00:46:35,046
to it and i'm like well we're just going to close that technical loophole so there's no question on

693
00:46:35,046 --> 00:46:42,146
it so yeah okay yeah so so now at this point so it it you know got voted down is this something

694
00:46:42,146 --> 00:46:46,666
where again for those of us who aren't familiar with the overture uh policies is this something

695
00:46:46,666 --> 00:46:47,886
where you can reintroduce it?

696
00:46:47,946 --> 00:46:50,146
Or is it like once it's down, it's gone forever?

697
00:46:50,366 --> 00:46:50,746
What is that?

698
00:46:50,746 --> 00:46:51,386
Oh, of course, man.

699
00:46:51,506 --> 00:46:51,786
We can.

700
00:46:51,966 --> 00:46:52,166
Okay.

701
00:46:52,486 --> 00:46:53,786
Let me put the word out.

702
00:46:54,026 --> 00:46:57,766
We can have 10 overtures, Bitcoin overtures this year.

703
00:46:57,926 --> 00:46:58,686
Go for it.

704
00:47:00,386 --> 00:47:02,546
And I'm on overtures and I can tell you,

705
00:47:02,606 --> 00:47:04,606
I will speak to it if you would like to.

706
00:47:05,366 --> 00:47:05,686
Yeah.

707
00:47:06,046 --> 00:47:08,486
So I will, you know, I'll be glad to.

708
00:47:09,126 --> 00:47:13,006
So, so yeah, no, we can, you can bring stuff up.

709
00:47:13,006 --> 00:47:15,906
So we're, you know, we're prayerfully considering now

710
00:47:15,906 --> 00:47:17,726
what that looks like for the coming year.

711
00:47:18,006 --> 00:47:18,126
Yeah.

712
00:47:18,306 --> 00:47:18,446
Yeah.

713
00:47:18,866 --> 00:47:19,266
Okay.

714
00:47:19,386 --> 00:47:21,426
So now talk me through a little bit about,

715
00:47:21,526 --> 00:47:22,446
so you obviously,

716
00:47:22,766 --> 00:47:25,846
you had a bunch of the secret guys come up

717
00:47:25,846 --> 00:47:28,106
and slide into the booth and be like,

718
00:47:28,166 --> 00:47:29,006
yeah, I'm a big eater.

719
00:47:29,166 --> 00:47:30,046
Right, right.

720
00:47:30,446 --> 00:47:34,346
And you're reading them Revelation 21.8,

721
00:47:34,506 --> 00:47:37,186
where it talks about cowards and all the kinds of stuff.

722
00:47:37,526 --> 00:47:38,346
No, no.

723
00:47:38,526 --> 00:47:39,066
I'm just kidding.

724
00:47:39,166 --> 00:47:39,426
Yeah, yeah.

725
00:47:39,426 --> 00:47:39,906
I'm just kidding.

726
00:47:40,246 --> 00:47:42,406
So you have those kinds of responses.

727
00:47:42,406 --> 00:47:43,746
Those are positive, encouraging ones.

728
00:47:43,746 --> 00:47:50,486
You also have, again, the broader 85-plus people who just, you know, leaders who just voted down.

729
00:47:50,986 --> 00:47:53,346
So obviously there's a wide amount of responses.

730
00:47:54,066 --> 00:47:55,106
This is nothing new.

731
00:47:55,406 --> 00:47:59,606
We've, you know, all of us who are Bitcoiners, we've tried to talk to people in our lives while Bitcoin.

732
00:48:00,186 --> 00:48:08,746
Are there specific underlying beliefs that you think are driving the responses of pastors in the PCA?

733
00:48:09,046 --> 00:48:09,306
Yeah.

734
00:48:09,546 --> 00:48:13,246
Or are they kind of, where do you say it's kind of just the same reasons as everybody else?

735
00:48:13,246 --> 00:48:16,066
So I really want to be careful not to describe motive.

736
00:48:16,426 --> 00:48:16,826
Sure.

737
00:48:16,966 --> 00:48:19,786
At the same time, I'm happy to describe some of the responses.

738
00:48:19,946 --> 00:48:26,586
So first of all, for the guys who came out of the woodworks, who were like Bitcoiners, first thing was like, well, let's get organized.

739
00:48:26,766 --> 00:48:27,446
Let's get together.

740
00:48:27,606 --> 00:48:28,286
Let's talk through.

741
00:48:29,246 --> 00:48:30,786
And we've been doing that, and that's been wonderful.

742
00:48:31,526 --> 00:48:42,226
You know, such a wide array of responses, you know, and, you know, many of the responses were like,

743
00:48:42,226 --> 00:48:43,666
is that still a thing?

744
00:48:43,986 --> 00:48:44,466
Like Bitcoin

745
00:48:44,466 --> 00:48:45,326
is it still a thing?

746
00:48:45,366 --> 00:48:45,726
And I'm like

747
00:48:45,726 --> 00:48:46,826
it is

748
00:48:46,826 --> 00:48:47,326
you know

749
00:48:47,326 --> 00:48:48,186
and I would love

750
00:48:48,186 --> 00:48:49,446
to tell you more

751
00:48:49,446 --> 00:48:50,046
and that would have been

752
00:48:50,046 --> 00:48:51,526
my response two years ago

753
00:48:51,526 --> 00:48:52,106
I mean

754
00:48:52,106 --> 00:48:53,426
so I totally understand

755
00:48:53,426 --> 00:48:54,106
that response

756
00:48:54,106 --> 00:48:54,486
I mean

757
00:48:54,486 --> 00:48:55,926
we're all

758
00:48:55,926 --> 00:48:57,486
doing what we

759
00:48:57,486 --> 00:48:58,666
believe the Lord's

760
00:48:58,666 --> 00:48:59,546
calling us to do

761
00:48:59,546 --> 00:49:00,246
you know

762
00:49:00,246 --> 00:49:01,166
proclaiming the gospel

763
00:49:01,166 --> 00:49:01,766
I mean

764
00:49:01,766 --> 00:49:02,766
and so

765
00:49:02,766 --> 00:49:03,586
yeah do you want to

766
00:49:03,586 --> 00:49:04,266
learn more about it?

767
00:49:04,446 --> 00:49:04,866
And I've had

768
00:49:04,866 --> 00:49:05,926
and some of them are like

769
00:49:05,926 --> 00:49:06,786
well yeah

770
00:49:06,786 --> 00:49:07,866
what can you send me?

771
00:49:08,086 --> 00:49:08,246
You know

772
00:49:08,246 --> 00:49:08,686
I'm like well

773
00:49:08,686 --> 00:49:09,866
let's get that conversation

774
00:49:09,866 --> 00:49:10,466
started

775
00:49:10,466 --> 00:49:11,986
and then

776
00:49:11,986 --> 00:49:19,746
there were some responses that were definitely informed by a broader narrative like that's just

777
00:49:19,746 --> 00:49:25,506
for money laundering which for the record you can google grok chat whatever you want

778
00:49:25,506 --> 00:49:34,046
cash is still keen on money laundering yeah i recently read a stat that a criminal is a hundred

779
00:49:34,046 --> 00:49:42,286
times more likely to use cash than Bitcoin for illicit activity. So that's just a narrative

780
00:49:42,286 --> 00:49:46,686
thing. So, you know, they're like this. And then I just kind of, with humility, kind of go,

781
00:49:47,046 --> 00:49:56,686
that's not true. Here's some research on that. And then, you know, some of the responses are,

782
00:49:56,686 --> 00:50:01,126
you know, there's a genuine curiosity. I actually wrote some of these down.

783
00:50:01,126 --> 00:50:06,586
I think some are deflated, deflated responses.

784
00:50:06,786 --> 00:50:07,846
And here's what I mean by that.

785
00:50:08,666 --> 00:50:13,586
They actually might understand it, might know it.

786
00:50:14,186 --> 00:50:23,386
And there's some shame there that they don't have any money to even look into it.

787
00:50:23,786 --> 00:50:27,306
And some of that shame is illegitimate shame.

788
00:50:27,306 --> 00:50:35,246
Meaning they have genuinely sought to be faithful with what they have and love their families.

789
00:50:35,786 --> 00:50:37,626
And God has called them to different places.

790
00:50:37,846 --> 00:50:41,426
And anytime you move, pastors move, there's a great cost to moving.

791
00:50:42,106 --> 00:50:48,406
They just don't have any extra cash at all and or in eyeballs and debt.

792
00:50:49,326 --> 00:50:50,706
And that's hard.

793
00:50:51,186 --> 00:50:52,746
And that's really hard.

794
00:50:52,746 --> 00:50:59,366
And I don't, this is why I don't like the phrase, you get Bitcoin at the price you deserve.

795
00:50:59,486 --> 00:51:01,406
I'm just like, we need to edit that out.

796
00:51:01,826 --> 00:51:05,766
We get, all is gift.

797
00:51:06,506 --> 00:51:06,586
Yeah.

798
00:51:06,806 --> 00:51:07,706
All is gift.

799
00:51:08,286 --> 00:51:09,426
All news is gift.

800
00:51:09,726 --> 00:51:11,706
You know, hard news, good news, it's all gifts.

801
00:51:11,826 --> 00:51:13,446
So let's, we need to parse that out.

802
00:51:13,926 --> 00:51:14,086
Yeah.

803
00:51:14,906 --> 00:51:20,766
And then there's some legitimate shame of like, I've not, I've not managed my money well.

804
00:51:20,766 --> 00:51:21,966
I'm terrible at money.

805
00:51:22,746 --> 00:51:33,026
And, you know, this gets into, like, the stories, their stories of growing up and their stories of what money is and what it represents.

806
00:51:33,326 --> 00:51:42,346
This really gets into high time preference, low time preference mentality that Bitcoiners talk about, you know.

807
00:51:42,346 --> 00:51:58,546
And, you know, theoretically, Christians should be the lowest time preference people ever because we know we have the fullness of the riches of Christ now.

808
00:51:59,066 --> 00:52:07,786
And we have the, you might say, material riches of heaven to come, you know, the inheritance of life eternal with Jesus and, you know.

809
00:52:07,786 --> 00:52:12,966
So we have access to go and like make our request known.

810
00:52:12,966 --> 00:52:16,326
And like, he's got all of heaven's resources to, you know, help us.

811
00:52:16,906 --> 00:52:17,306
Yeah.

812
00:52:17,646 --> 00:52:25,686
So the, so the low time preference in terms of eschatology, I think does a couple of things.

813
00:52:26,146 --> 00:52:29,166
You know, one, it, it lets you kind of settle down.

814
00:52:29,186 --> 00:52:30,626
Like I don't have to gratify.

815
00:52:30,766 --> 00:52:31,066
I don't.

816
00:52:31,626 --> 00:52:31,806
Yeah.

817
00:52:32,346 --> 00:52:33,666
I mean, I'm all for fun.

818
00:52:33,666 --> 00:52:39,646
I love having fun, but I don't have to just spend all my money every day all the time.

819
00:52:39,746 --> 00:52:41,026
I'm fine, you know.

820
00:52:41,126 --> 00:52:47,286
So, but then I think there's another, there was some contempt responses.

821
00:52:47,846 --> 00:52:50,326
And I know that sounds like I'm reading motives because I am.

822
00:52:50,326 --> 00:53:02,926
Part of it is because there's actually facial signs that researchers said that that point to person has a contempt for you.

823
00:53:03,246 --> 00:53:04,506
Like a cock in a light.

824
00:53:04,606 --> 00:53:05,306
What are you talking about?

825
00:53:05,486 --> 00:53:08,826
You know, that's like a, that's a research-based telltale.

826
00:53:08,926 --> 00:53:10,326
So I got some of those responses.

827
00:53:11,526 --> 00:53:13,526
And it's interesting.

828
00:53:15,026 --> 00:53:19,546
And I'm going to kind of go off on a little tangent here and pull it back, I promise.

829
00:53:20,326 --> 00:53:20,826
I love it.

830
00:53:20,826 --> 00:53:27,866
So this past Sunday morning, my wife's getting ready to teach third and fourth grade Sunday school, and she's teaching Mark chapter one.

831
00:53:28,906 --> 00:53:39,586
And she's like, hey, I've taught this before, but do you have any like just little, is there a way I can like illustrate this or kind of make this more of a tangible hands-on activity, talk about Mark one.

832
00:53:40,146 --> 00:53:47,626
And I had an illustration that we all know, like, you know, the beginning of the gospel, the good news, you know, the beginning of the gospel is the son of God.

833
00:53:47,626 --> 00:53:50,486
Okay, so we know gospel means good news, right?

834
00:53:50,566 --> 00:53:51,846
We know that's literally what it means.

835
00:53:51,926 --> 00:53:55,206
And so I just said, hey, you know, it's like headlines on a newspaper.

836
00:53:55,646 --> 00:53:58,106
You know, like Mark's saying, these are the headlines.

837
00:53:58,866 --> 00:54:01,266
This is the good news on the newspaper.

838
00:54:02,366 --> 00:54:07,726
And one of the things I thought was, and she was like, oh, oh, so she starts sketching out a newspaper.

839
00:54:08,066 --> 00:54:09,746
And then she starts putting that on there.

840
00:54:09,766 --> 00:54:13,006
And I'm like, yeah, show them that like this is the headlines.

841
00:54:13,826 --> 00:54:19,846
Well, the gospel is the most disruptive news to ever hit the planet.

842
00:54:22,086 --> 00:54:29,426
Disruptive particularly to the idea of salvation by works of the law.

843
00:54:31,046 --> 00:54:34,086
Or you might say a pseudo-salvation by works of the law.

844
00:54:34,846 --> 00:54:38,986
And a pseudo-salvation through gratification of the flesh.

845
00:54:38,986 --> 00:54:47,966
I mean, it confronts those two most prominent default human instincts as a result of the fall.

846
00:54:48,706 --> 00:54:56,906
I need to make sure that I'm a good person and I want to live according to all of my fleshly desires.

847
00:54:57,306 --> 00:54:58,546
And those are definitely in conflict.

848
00:54:58,806 --> 00:55:07,286
But the gospel is the good news that disrupts those two paradigms greatly.

849
00:55:07,286 --> 00:55:16,706
So I started thinking about this, and I thought, Bitcoin is the great disruption in the financial world.

850
00:55:17,706 --> 00:55:19,506
It is the great disruption.

851
00:55:19,506 --> 00:55:28,286
It is the disruption to a Kinzian economic fiat system.

852
00:55:28,286 --> 00:55:37,006
Uh, it is, it is a disruption to, you know, uh, a lavish lifestyle.

853
00:55:37,966 --> 00:55:45,246
It brings in really different ideas about what money is.

854
00:55:46,106 --> 00:55:52,746
And so some of the reactions that I have received, you might say,

855
00:55:52,746 --> 00:56:04,526
Like, if the gospel is the biggest news to hit the salvation by works establishment

856
00:56:04,526 --> 00:56:09,346
and the, you know, pseudo-salvation by gratification of the flesh,

857
00:56:09,546 --> 00:56:27,769
this is like you know you got Rome and Pharisees right You got the Hellenists and you got the Pharisees Those are your two parties right They coming from different places The gospel is a great disruption for that I think in our circles Bitcoin is a great disruption to the current financial establishment

858
00:56:29,088 --> 00:56:38,809
And the reactions can point to an entrenchment in that financial establishment

859
00:56:38,809 --> 00:56:43,428
again I will be very careful

860
00:56:43,428 --> 00:56:45,029
because the men that I know

861
00:56:45,029 --> 00:56:46,289
that are working hard

862
00:56:46,289 --> 00:56:48,769
to ensure that we

863
00:56:48,769 --> 00:56:50,148
as pastors have

864
00:56:50,148 --> 00:56:52,088
you know good retirement

865
00:56:52,088 --> 00:56:52,928
working hard

866
00:56:52,928 --> 00:56:54,209
the deacons and the elders

867
00:56:54,209 --> 00:56:54,769
in our churches

868
00:56:54,769 --> 00:56:55,529
are working hard

869
00:56:55,529 --> 00:56:57,008
to be faithful stewards

870
00:56:57,008 --> 00:57:00,948
of what we are

871
00:57:00,948 --> 00:57:04,309
I have encountered

872
00:57:04,309 --> 00:57:06,029
boomer ruling elders

873
00:57:06,029 --> 00:57:08,569
who are genuinely curious

874
00:57:08,569 --> 00:57:11,769
about this and have actually

875
00:57:11,769 --> 00:57:13,269
become

876
00:57:13,269 --> 00:57:16,008
have actually gone in

877
00:57:16,008 --> 00:57:18,029
on significant allocations of Bitcoin

878
00:57:18,029 --> 00:57:19,809
and I thought

879
00:57:19,809 --> 00:57:21,328
what is the difference between

880
00:57:21,328 --> 00:57:24,049
this person and that person

881
00:57:24,049 --> 00:57:26,049
one is engaging this

882
00:57:26,049 --> 00:57:28,289
new idea, this new innovation

883
00:57:28,289 --> 00:57:29,209
with humility

884
00:57:29,209 --> 00:57:32,249
and one is just

885
00:57:32,249 --> 00:57:34,348
holding contempt for it

886
00:57:34,348 --> 00:57:36,608
and it makes me think

887
00:57:36,608 --> 00:57:37,549
okay

888
00:57:37,549 --> 00:57:48,729
I think Christians, I think we're actually, because of the gospel, hardwired to welcome disruptive, what we believe to be good news.

889
00:57:49,069 --> 00:57:54,029
So, for example, somebody grew up in a community and then it's like, Johnny became a Christian.

890
00:57:55,249 --> 00:58:01,888
And the response is either celebration or the response is speculation.

891
00:58:02,388 --> 00:58:02,828
Exactly.

892
00:58:03,189 --> 00:58:03,408
Yep.

893
00:58:03,408 --> 00:58:05,468
And I'm like, wait a minute, hold up.

894
00:58:06,428 --> 00:58:08,928
I understand you'll know a tree bites fruit and those sorts of things.

895
00:58:09,069 --> 00:58:09,988
I got that.

896
00:58:11,368 --> 00:58:22,209
But it's the same reaction my dad's friends had when I said I was going to be a pastor.

897
00:58:22,928 --> 00:58:27,848
My dad's friends were like, Mike Haley's son is going to be a preacher?

898
00:58:28,148 --> 00:58:29,368
Are you kidding me?

899
00:58:29,789 --> 00:58:32,829
You know, and even like years later, I don't know what it is.

900
00:58:32,829 --> 00:58:38,329
years later, one of my friends was like, where did you come from? And I'm like, I mean, the grace

901
00:58:38,329 --> 00:58:47,169
of God. So it seems like I've just, to my fellow Christian brothers and sisters, a posture of

902
00:58:47,169 --> 00:58:56,068
humility, and particularly in this area, if you study Bitcoin and you arrive at the conviction

903
00:58:56,068 --> 00:59:00,908
that it's not a good system where you don't, that's fine.

904
00:59:01,789 --> 00:59:08,309
Don't stifle the process of learning about it.

905
00:59:09,329 --> 00:59:14,908
So that's kind of the end of my notes.

906
00:59:15,468 --> 00:59:16,729
Yeah, that's great.

907
00:59:16,888 --> 00:59:18,249
No, I really appreciate that.

908
00:59:18,249 --> 00:59:22,368
And again, I feel like you've tried to be appropriately winsome,

909
00:59:22,948 --> 00:59:24,309
appropriately careful.

910
00:59:26,068 --> 00:59:39,468
I think one of the conclusions that I've come to about some of this stuff and some of the dynamics you're talking about is without it all comparing the relative importance of these two things that I'm getting ready to compare.

911
00:59:39,468 --> 00:59:42,729
That's not how a comparison works.

912
00:59:43,088 --> 00:59:45,189
I'm not drawing a comparison between the importance.

913
00:59:45,329 --> 00:59:48,568
I'm drawing a comparison between the mechanics of these two things.

914
00:59:48,769 --> 00:59:49,588
Yes, exactly.

915
00:59:49,588 --> 01:00:01,488
So the hardest people to talk to about Christ are not the atheists who've never heard, or like, again, the people who are in the jungle tribe who've never heard about Jesus.

916
01:00:02,128 --> 01:00:03,209
Like, they're just not.

917
01:00:03,329 --> 01:00:04,769
They're not the hardest people to talk to.

918
01:00:04,769 --> 01:00:11,108
The hardest people to talk to are the people who've already either, like, they've grown up Christian and walked away.

919
01:00:11,108 --> 01:00:26,448
It's the people who have some knowledge or think they have an understanding of the gospel and what it is and what it means and the consequences of it, but who actually don't have a proper understanding of it.

920
01:00:26,448 --> 01:00:29,209
or who are actually like, and so it's very similar with Bitcoin.

921
01:00:29,329 --> 01:00:31,388
People, they think they know what it is.

922
01:00:31,549 --> 01:00:35,408
They've heard about it, but they don't stop to question.

923
01:00:35,529 --> 01:00:38,088
This would be another encouragement that I have is they don't stop to question

924
01:00:38,088 --> 01:00:42,249
the source of where they heard about Bitcoin from.

925
01:00:42,928 --> 01:00:45,769
Man, you just made me realize that.

926
01:00:45,968 --> 01:00:50,348
So doing campus ministry at Texas A&M for nine years.

927
01:00:50,348 --> 01:00:50,829
Yep.

928
01:00:50,829 --> 01:01:14,029
Uh, you just made me realize the, how, how I've actually, I was actually shaped and formed into, uh, helping people detangle their Jesus stories so that I can slide across the table what I believe to be the true gospel story.

929
01:01:14,029 --> 01:01:35,928
And I had to do that. I mean, I had a friend who went to Texas A&M who went into campus ministry and I told him one time, I was like, dude, it's hard actually talking to these kids who have these different experiences that are not in accord with the scriptures.

930
01:01:35,928 --> 01:01:39,848
he's like oh he's like i could never do campus ministry at texas a&m because

931
01:01:39,848 --> 01:01:49,428
there's so many stories that you have to help kind of yep sort in order to in order to get to

932
01:01:49,428 --> 01:01:54,709
and now that you're saying what you're just saying i'm like that's the same thing with the

933
01:01:54,709 --> 01:01:59,988
current financial system right you're shaped and formed in such a way and then you've got to wait a

934
01:01:59,988 --> 01:02:06,348
minute. Can anybody listening right now say, can they define what is money? Because two years ago,

935
01:02:06,348 --> 01:02:12,809
I could not have. 100%. And I'm like, wow, I need to think about that. Like I use it every day.

936
01:02:12,908 --> 01:02:17,549
What is it? You know, so stuff like that. And that's exactly, that's kind of, again,

937
01:02:17,549 --> 01:02:23,309
the conclusion I've come to in six years of being in Bitcoin is the hardest thing is coming to the

938
01:02:23,309 --> 01:02:29,689
realization that you don't understand something. And you can have incredible proximity to something

939
01:02:29,689 --> 01:02:31,249
and still not understand it at all.

940
01:02:32,068 --> 01:02:32,789
And so there's a lot of people

941
01:02:32,789 --> 01:02:33,948
who think they understand money

942
01:02:33,948 --> 01:02:35,269
because they use it every day.

943
01:02:35,689 --> 01:02:36,829
And it's the same,

944
01:02:36,829 --> 01:02:37,988
very similar principle

945
01:02:37,988 --> 01:02:39,329
of there's people who grew up in church

946
01:02:39,329 --> 01:02:40,209
and so they think that

947
01:02:40,209 --> 01:02:41,888
they just assume that they understand it

948
01:02:41,888 --> 01:02:43,029
because they had proximity

949
01:02:43,029 --> 01:02:45,968
to the institution or something.

950
01:02:46,549 --> 01:02:47,749
I think the other thing that

951
01:02:47,749 --> 01:02:50,008
should help people, right?

952
01:02:50,108 --> 01:02:51,809
This is a talking board

953
01:02:51,809 --> 01:02:53,348
that I've had with people

954
01:02:53,348 --> 01:02:58,169
is, again, questioning the source

955
01:02:58,169 --> 01:02:59,769
of where you learned about Bitcoin from.

956
01:03:00,269 --> 01:03:02,169
Because for the vast majority of people,

957
01:03:02,488 --> 01:03:04,749
their first touch or their first five touches

958
01:03:04,749 --> 01:03:07,488
or 10 touches of thinking about Bitcoin

959
01:03:07,488 --> 01:03:10,928
is they heard about it from CNBC

960
01:03:10,928 --> 01:03:13,448
or Fox Business or whatever.

961
01:03:13,709 --> 01:03:15,488
They're hearing about it from people

962
01:03:15,488 --> 01:03:17,348
who are primarily framing Bitcoin

963
01:03:17,348 --> 01:03:20,209
from the standpoint of a speculative investment.

964
01:03:20,988 --> 01:03:22,529
And all of the stuff that's being discussed

965
01:03:22,529 --> 01:03:24,689
is about Bitcoin's dollar-denominated price

966
01:03:24,689 --> 01:03:27,289
and about which companies are owning it

967
01:03:27,289 --> 01:03:35,689
and about, you know, it's all focused on one aspect of what Bitcoin is without at all getting

968
01:03:35,689 --> 01:03:41,368
into, well, again, the questions of why was Bitcoin created? What is money? Like some of

969
01:03:41,368 --> 01:03:46,549
these more foundational questions that we haven't had to think about, that the vast majority of us

970
01:03:46,549 --> 01:03:52,169
haven't had to think about for generations. And so, and again, the people who do, God bless them,

971
01:03:52,169 --> 01:03:58,669
the gold people, a lot of what they're saying is so true. It's totally right. But because of how

972
01:03:58,669 --> 01:04:04,269
gold has been marginalized by this system and just kind of shoved to the side and mocked by people,

973
01:04:04,529 --> 01:04:10,648
unfortunately, who have an economic interest in shoving it in the corner, a lot of these financial

974
01:04:10,648 --> 01:04:19,829
advisors from Fiat World financial advisors, they have incentives to do so. People just aren't,

975
01:04:19,829 --> 01:04:40,468
And they're not in a place where they can even think about some of these things from first principles. And so the other point that I would make with that is we are in a point of history, and I would argue more than ever in the history of the world, we are more disconnected from reality than the world has ever been.

976
01:04:40,468 --> 01:04:46,849
And the reason I think I can say that is because there's never been a fiat world reserve currency.

977
01:04:47,448 --> 01:04:48,689
That's never happened.

978
01:04:49,209 --> 01:04:50,849
There's never been a time.

979
01:04:50,988 --> 01:04:54,588
We've always had, like fiat currencies go back 100,000s of years.

980
01:04:55,029 --> 01:04:56,189
They go back a long time.

981
01:04:56,388 --> 01:05:00,729
But we've never had a reserve currency be a fiat currency.

982
01:05:01,008 --> 01:05:01,428
Right.

983
01:05:01,868 --> 01:05:09,289
And what fiat currencies do is they give whoever is at the helm, they give them the ability to subsidize and create their own reality.

984
01:05:09,289 --> 01:05:27,249
And so we've seen effectively endless wars being fought for the last 50 years. We've effectively seen just all kinds of things that are going against the free market desires of the vast majority of market participants.

985
01:05:27,249 --> 01:05:35,269
So the United States is sending hundreds of millions of dollars to Africa to fund family planning, which is really abortions.

986
01:05:35,789 --> 01:05:48,309
Now, how are they able to fund that? Is that because abortion is such an important tenet to everyday Americans that they want to sacrifice their hard-fought wealth?

987
01:05:49,229 --> 01:05:51,568
No, they're not at all. That's not at all why that's happening.

988
01:05:51,568 --> 01:05:54,888
that's able to happen because they're literally printing money out of thin air and sending it all

989
01:05:54,888 --> 01:05:59,148
over the world because they're, they're subsidizing other interests and other political interests and

990
01:05:59,148 --> 01:06:03,888
all these kinds of things. And so like, we, we should be able to, and especially Christians

991
01:06:03,888 --> 01:06:08,928
should be, should be looking at this and be willing to consider, man, we're living in a day

992
01:06:08,928 --> 01:06:15,488
and age when people, when a meaningful percentage of people are approving of trans surgeries and

993
01:06:15,488 --> 01:06:19,669
approving of all kinds of insane things that all of us were like that five minutes ago,

994
01:06:19,669 --> 01:06:39,849
Everyone knew we're insane. And so is it really that much more of a stretch to consider that maybe we're not in the best position to figure out if, you know, to basically, we're not in the best position to say, hey, we authoritatively understand money and Bitcoin to be able to condemn it.

995
01:06:39,849 --> 01:06:53,349
Like that would be the concern that I would have for a lot of people who, again, are very smart, who see the downstream consequences in reality of sin and how entrenched it gets and the consequences of it.

996
01:06:53,888 --> 01:06:59,988
They just, they haven't been in a position to have that conversation, to think about money through that lens.

997
01:07:00,428 --> 01:07:05,928
Yeah, I mean, there's just a couple notes on that.

998
01:07:05,928 --> 01:07:24,829
But, you know, I mean, one of the things that when you think about fiat currency, dollar, government's involvement in the financial realm, et cetera, you start to really think about agency as a human being and how you were made.

999
01:07:24,829 --> 01:07:33,968
And you kind of realize, like, wait a minute, I do get to ask questions, you know, and I do get to have thoughts.

1000
01:07:33,968 --> 01:07:47,769
And I do get to, and then all of a sudden there's this sense of adventure, this curiosity, this realization that safety is a myth.

1001
01:07:48,008 --> 01:07:48,568
Correct.

1002
01:07:49,128 --> 01:07:56,508
And you start, you feel, you do feel more free, first and foremost, in the gospel.

1003
01:07:56,928 --> 01:08:00,809
This is why I do think we see a ton of Christians in the Bitcoin space.

1004
01:08:01,448 --> 01:08:01,588
Yep.

1005
01:08:01,588 --> 01:08:15,309
Because we've already been given a new, we've been given a redeemed heart in order to continue the, you know, be fruitful, multiply, seek adventure, take risks, innovate.

1006
01:08:15,789 --> 01:08:25,329
Like, that's already sort of hardwired into our new hearts because it's a redeemed heart, because it's a thoroughly human in Christ way to do things.

1007
01:08:25,528 --> 01:08:31,528
I think also on the history thing, and I, you know, I have these thoughts, you know, this is kind of.

1008
01:08:31,588 --> 01:08:41,289
You know, the 1998 Nobel Prize winner for economics, you know, the quote he had about the Internet is going to be as relevant as the fax machine in 2005.

1009
01:08:42,068 --> 01:08:42,088
Yeah.

1010
01:08:42,088 --> 01:08:48,889
I just want everybody to sit on that for just one second, because have we have we.

1011
01:08:50,729 --> 01:08:52,369
Have we abdicated.

1012
01:08:53,409 --> 01:08:59,789
A sense of leadership, courageous leadership, have we abdicated that to the experts?

1013
01:08:59,789 --> 01:09:03,769
because expertise and leadership are two very different things.

1014
01:09:03,809 --> 01:09:04,689
And I'll prove it this way.

1015
01:09:05,208 --> 01:09:08,208
Fauci was asked, and whatever you want to say about Fauci, whatever.

1016
01:09:08,729 --> 01:09:09,588
But here's the point.

1017
01:09:09,748 --> 01:09:13,369
Fauci was asked, like, have you thought about the economic implications

1018
01:09:13,369 --> 01:09:14,829
of, like, lockdowns and all that?

1019
01:09:14,849 --> 01:09:16,289
And he's like, that's not my job.

1020
01:09:16,988 --> 01:09:17,088
Yeah.

1021
01:09:17,229 --> 01:09:18,488
Now, I appreciate him being honest.

1022
01:09:18,648 --> 01:09:20,008
He's just like, I don't think about that.

1023
01:09:20,008 --> 01:09:27,028
And so now the question is, okay, who's going to lead us in this space,

1024
01:09:27,208 --> 01:09:29,148
in this new space, right?

1025
01:09:29,148 --> 01:09:33,168
in this completely new territory.

1026
01:09:33,508 --> 01:09:35,068
So that's, so what that got me thinking,

1027
01:09:35,208 --> 01:09:38,988
the 1998 quote, you know, I got to thinking,

1028
01:09:39,108 --> 01:09:40,648
you know, Henry Ford, you know,

1029
01:09:40,668 --> 01:09:42,048
is a famous quote attributed to him.

1030
01:09:42,108 --> 01:09:42,548
I don't know.

1031
01:09:42,608 --> 01:09:44,048
It's just like, if you ask people what they need,

1032
01:09:44,108 --> 01:09:45,189
they're going to say faster horse.

1033
01:09:45,869 --> 01:09:45,948
Yeah.

1034
01:09:46,369 --> 01:09:49,008
So you have this thing called felt need versus real need.

1035
01:09:49,208 --> 01:09:49,448
Correct.

1036
01:09:49,729 --> 01:09:50,108
Right?

1037
01:09:50,269 --> 01:09:52,269
So the felt need is faster horse.

1038
01:09:52,448 --> 01:09:54,729
The real need is we just need a faster way

1039
01:09:54,729 --> 01:09:55,588
to get from A to B.

1040
01:09:56,028 --> 01:09:56,208
Yeah.

1041
01:09:56,208 --> 01:10:07,068
And sometimes I wonder, are we, and this is a bold thing, but it's kind of like, are we in the middle of a horse and buggy convention and the first automobile just hit the street?

1042
01:10:07,508 --> 01:10:07,588
Yeah.

1043
01:10:07,929 --> 01:10:14,548
Are we at Blockbuster getting our three for a dollar videos and Netflix just hit the street?

1044
01:10:14,729 --> 01:10:22,369
Are we holding BlackBerrys and Palm IQs and the Apple iPhone just got invented?

1045
01:10:22,988 --> 01:10:23,128
Yeah.

1046
01:10:23,128 --> 01:10:40,108
Are we maybe the chief, you know, quartermaster for the scriptoriums in the 15th century, and we're in charge of 100 monks and all the services, and did the printing press just hit the world?

1047
01:10:40,668 --> 01:10:49,389
So the question is, are we in the middle of this fiat financial establishment and Bitcoin just entered the world?

1048
01:10:50,008 --> 01:10:53,648
I personally have put all my bet on that.

1049
01:10:54,568 --> 01:10:56,668
Just for the record, not financial advice.

1050
01:10:56,789 --> 01:10:59,988
I'm just saying I have a high conviction.

1051
01:11:00,588 --> 01:11:01,668
And here's another thing I want to say.

1052
01:11:02,829 --> 01:11:04,389
Could we all be wrong about this?

1053
01:11:04,668 --> 01:11:06,409
Of course we could all be wrong about this.

1054
01:11:06,988 --> 01:11:13,809
I'm just simply saying we are asking really good questions regardless.

1055
01:11:14,648 --> 01:11:15,289
You see what I mean?

1056
01:11:15,748 --> 01:11:16,269
A hundred percent.

1057
01:11:16,269 --> 01:11:20,588
So the Bitcoiners, we just got into this place by a process of elimination, right?

1058
01:11:20,628 --> 01:11:21,948
I put value into the world.

1059
01:11:22,128 --> 01:11:25,829
I receive the representation of that value in wages.

1060
01:11:26,048 --> 01:11:29,969
Where can I stick those wages for my children, for my children's children?

1061
01:11:30,349 --> 01:11:33,229
Process of elimination takes me to, I got one spot, that's Bitcoin.

1062
01:11:33,229 --> 01:11:39,608
I got no other spot that I can, you know, real estate stocks, yeah, they're good mid thing.

1063
01:11:40,048 --> 01:11:40,869
That's fine.

1064
01:11:41,289 --> 01:11:44,508
But like, sure as heck ain't a savings account at a bank, right?

1065
01:11:44,748 --> 01:11:45,769
Everybody knows this.

1066
01:11:45,769 --> 01:11:52,548
So it's just we get to that process of elimination where I've arrived at the conviction like I got to stick my value in Bitcoin.

1067
01:11:52,769 --> 01:11:53,789
And this is another thing.

1068
01:11:53,909 --> 01:11:54,769
I just want to say this.

1069
01:11:54,909 --> 01:12:01,809
Like, I think, you know, a lot of people understand that the investment versus savings thing.

1070
01:12:02,068 --> 01:12:02,309
OK.

1071
01:12:03,448 --> 01:12:06,349
Is Bitcoin a good savings technology?

1072
01:12:06,588 --> 01:12:06,909
Yes.

1073
01:12:07,008 --> 01:12:09,229
Will it be a good savings technology in 50 years?

1074
01:12:09,528 --> 01:12:09,849
Yes.

1075
01:12:10,168 --> 01:12:12,929
Simply because of its inability to be inflated.

1076
01:12:13,269 --> 01:12:13,548
Right.

1077
01:12:13,548 --> 01:12:15,389
Now, some of us are early.

1078
01:12:15,769 --> 01:12:23,008
Might we happen to be capturing a significant arbitrage over what we think to be the next five to 10 years between the dollar and Bitcoin?

1079
01:12:23,668 --> 01:12:29,929
And could it be that we come out with a lot of wealth?

1080
01:12:29,929 --> 01:12:31,068
It could be.

1081
01:12:31,488 --> 01:12:37,969
Then the question goes, okay, how does God call us to steward that?

1082
01:12:38,929 --> 01:12:43,508
And so you've kind of got to play the whole thing out and you've got to pray through the whole thing.

1083
01:12:43,508 --> 01:12:45,269
and you ask the Lord to guard your heart

1084
01:12:45,269 --> 01:12:49,608
and ask the Lord to remind you of the inheritance

1085
01:12:49,608 --> 01:12:51,448
that you had to come and all of these things,

1086
01:12:51,988 --> 01:12:54,588
you have to run those in parallel.

1087
01:12:54,789 --> 01:12:57,289
I'm going to be curious and I'm going to say,

1088
01:12:57,369 --> 01:12:59,229
Lord, you've promised that you're going to hold on to me

1089
01:12:59,229 --> 01:13:00,389
and I've got the trust in that.

1090
01:13:01,168 --> 01:13:02,929
Yeah. And so again, yeah, there's,

1091
01:13:03,028 --> 01:13:04,389
we can definitely look at it from the standpoint

1092
01:13:04,389 --> 01:13:06,028
of Bitcoiners themselves.

1093
01:13:06,628 --> 01:13:08,708
How should they think, right?

1094
01:13:08,769 --> 01:13:11,048
And like there obviously are specific challenges

1095
01:13:11,048 --> 01:13:19,229
to us as people who have Bitcoin and who, again, Lord willing, will have Bitcoin into the future.

1096
01:13:20,148 --> 01:13:27,708
Again, the problem is the people who are not Bitcoiners want to focus on that question.

1097
01:13:28,889 --> 01:13:32,349
And so it's like, okay, now again, if it's your pastor or somebody-

1098
01:13:32,349 --> 01:13:33,588
They want to focus on which question?

1099
01:13:33,809 --> 01:13:38,548
They want to focus on the question of, they're acting like the only relevant question is,

1100
01:13:38,889 --> 01:13:40,469
well, what is this doing to you?

1101
01:13:40,469 --> 01:13:51,448
And like, what, you know, or like, what is this doing to the individual? And what we're saying is, yes, that is a fine question to ask. Like, yes, personal piety as it relates to how to steward resources is important.

1102
01:13:51,908 --> 01:13:52,028
Yes.

1103
01:13:52,108 --> 01:14:02,229
What we're saying, though, is, okay, we acknowledge that's important and we're recognizing that we're trying to guard our own hearts, all this kind of stuff. Unfortunately, that is by no means the only factor.

1104
01:14:02,648 --> 01:14:05,369
There's probably 10 other factors that you're not even thinking about.

1105
01:14:05,988 --> 01:14:14,088
And the thing that I would say to people is, so the danger, right, what is hypocrisy?

1106
01:14:14,748 --> 01:14:19,189
The nature of hypocrisy is having one standard for other people and then another standard for yourself.

1107
01:14:19,568 --> 01:14:26,408
And so the thing that drives me sanctifiedly nuts is when people will say, have you considered that you could be wrong?

1108
01:14:26,869 --> 01:14:30,729
Do you acknowledge that something could happen to Bitcoin and that you could be wrong?

1109
01:14:30,729 --> 01:14:32,009
or that's something along the lines,

1110
01:14:32,048 --> 01:14:33,469
even if everything is fine with Bitcoin or not,

1111
01:14:33,509 --> 01:14:34,689
that something could happen in the future

1112
01:14:34,689 --> 01:14:37,088
that could result in it going kaplooey.

1113
01:14:37,789 --> 01:14:39,729
And I would acknowledge, of course.

1114
01:14:40,469 --> 01:14:41,849
Now, then I would turn around-

1115
01:14:41,849 --> 01:14:44,269
That assumes safety in the current system.

1116
01:14:44,509 --> 01:14:45,948
That's where I go to that question.

1117
01:14:46,429 --> 01:14:47,189
That's one thing.

1118
01:14:47,488 --> 01:14:49,929
The other thing that I would turn around and ask them is,

1119
01:14:50,509 --> 01:14:54,689
have you reconciled with what it could mean if you're wrong?

1120
01:14:55,309 --> 01:14:55,708
Right.

1121
01:14:55,869 --> 01:14:58,469
And so that's where I just come back to over and over again.

1122
01:14:58,469 --> 01:14:59,889
And again, I would say,

1123
01:14:59,931 --> 01:15:03,431
say that these are not equal wrongs.

1124
01:15:04,151 --> 01:15:06,751
Like, so if we're wrong, it's a technical problem.

1125
01:15:07,091 --> 01:15:10,331
If they're wrong, it's a, you're denying history.

1126
01:15:10,811 --> 01:15:13,911
You're denying, like, you're denying, like, hey, all fiat currencies fail.

1127
01:15:14,271 --> 01:15:15,591
Like, this is just something that happens.

1128
01:15:16,031 --> 01:15:21,811
And so what are the consequences of fiat currencies doing exactly what they've done for as long

1129
01:15:21,811 --> 01:15:22,551
as they've existed?

1130
01:15:23,711 --> 01:15:28,351
The consequences are all of the money that you're sitting here holding in fiat currency

1131
01:15:28,351 --> 01:15:29,771
is that it goes to zero.

1132
01:15:29,931 --> 01:15:33,591
And so what does that do to your ability to church plant?

1133
01:15:33,971 --> 01:15:37,251
What does that do to your ability to, you know, we're not talking in 20 years.

1134
01:15:37,331 --> 01:15:38,571
We're talking in five years.

1135
01:15:38,691 --> 01:15:39,831
We're talking in three years.

1136
01:15:40,171 --> 01:15:40,351
That's right.

1137
01:15:40,391 --> 01:15:40,991
You're talking.

1138
01:15:41,191 --> 01:15:44,451
Because remember, at the end of the day, it's still a savings technology.

1139
01:15:45,031 --> 01:15:45,171
Yep.

1140
01:15:45,731 --> 01:15:47,411
If we're in a cycle thing, that's fine.

1141
01:15:47,471 --> 01:15:48,511
Four years, hold it.

1142
01:15:51,191 --> 01:15:54,431
I'm saying it's still just a good idea to save.

1143
01:15:54,911 --> 01:15:55,071
Yep.

1144
01:15:55,651 --> 01:15:57,211
I'll give you the four-year time period.

1145
01:15:57,211 --> 01:15:59,091
Like, okay, sit on for four.

1146
01:15:59,151 --> 01:16:00,591
Let's see what the cycles do, et cetera, et cetera.

1147
01:16:00,791 --> 01:16:09,371
I think another thing, Jordan, too, is, you know, we are thinking everything belongs to the Lord.

1148
01:16:09,771 --> 01:16:11,971
This is one of the responses that I got.

1149
01:16:12,091 --> 01:16:15,931
One of the overwhelming responses I got to the Overture was just like, why are we focusing on this?

1150
01:16:15,991 --> 01:16:17,671
Why are we not just focusing on the gospel?

1151
01:16:18,251 --> 01:16:22,951
And my simple reply there is, everything belongs to Jesus.

1152
01:16:23,531 --> 01:16:25,911
The scriptures speak about money a ton.

1153
01:16:25,911 --> 01:16:28,991
and we are called to be stewards

1154
01:16:28,991 --> 01:16:31,831
and we are in budget meetings all the time.

1155
01:16:32,311 --> 01:16:37,051
And there's a chronic anxiety in session meetings

1156
01:16:37,051 --> 01:16:39,631
because of fiat currency.

1157
01:16:40,291 --> 01:16:41,171
That's what it is.

1158
01:16:41,231 --> 01:16:43,751
So let's just name the chronic anxiety

1159
01:16:43,751 --> 01:16:46,831
that we can't trust what we might

1160
01:16:46,831 --> 01:16:49,431
or might not have in five to 10 years.

1161
01:16:49,591 --> 01:16:50,731
We can't trust it.

1162
01:16:50,731 --> 01:16:52,971
We don't know what the inflation rate is going to be.

1163
01:16:52,971 --> 01:16:59,971
And so I'm just saying, let's name the anxiety in the room and what stirs it first.

1164
01:17:00,151 --> 01:17:08,311
And then let's talk about possible avenues of allocating towards something that could hold value better.

1165
01:17:08,591 --> 01:17:10,491
I just want to start right there.

1166
01:17:11,191 --> 01:17:17,151
And so to me, there's no dichotomy between the proclamation of the good news of the gospel.

1167
01:17:17,171 --> 01:17:17,751
100%.

1168
01:17:17,751 --> 01:17:17,991
Yeah.

1169
01:17:17,991 --> 01:17:20,031
And every other facet of life.

1170
01:17:20,031 --> 01:17:29,451
That is one aspect of the Reformed world and life view where we take all of life, all of life in a sense is holy.

1171
01:17:29,811 --> 01:17:40,611
All of life is to be brought before the Lord and not only our gospel proclamation, but the avenues and the wisdom of how we structure that is to be thought through.

1172
01:17:40,831 --> 01:17:50,011
And so that's where nothing's going to take the place of me getting up on Sunday morning like I will this Sunday and say, hey, y'all, this is the good news of the gospel.

1173
01:17:50,611 --> 01:17:50,751
Yep.

1174
01:17:51,191 --> 01:17:52,831
But then I'm going to apply it to marriage.

1175
01:17:52,971 --> 01:17:55,111
I'm going to apply it to how they work their finances.

1176
01:17:55,291 --> 01:17:57,851
I'm going to apply it to, you know, the work relationships.

1177
01:17:58,431 --> 01:18:01,771
I'm going to apply it to all those things because the Bible does that, right?

1178
01:18:01,831 --> 01:18:02,111
Exactly.

1179
01:18:02,271 --> 01:18:02,471
So.

1180
01:18:02,951 --> 01:18:03,091
Yeah.

1181
01:18:03,151 --> 01:18:08,891
And you can't, the other thing, again, to this point is, again, it's one thing if somebody

1182
01:18:08,891 --> 01:18:22,495
is saying hey why don we just focus on the gospel And they also are saying hey we so committed to the immediate proclamation of the gospel that we not even going to think about having retirement accounts

1183
01:18:23,455 --> 01:18:23,555
Okay?

1184
01:18:23,795 --> 01:18:24,155
Right.

1185
01:18:24,375 --> 01:18:26,735
One thing to say that, that would be a level of consistency.

1186
01:18:27,055 --> 01:18:29,795
It's a level of inconsistency to say,

1187
01:18:29,895 --> 01:18:31,415
why aren't we just caring about the gospel?

1188
01:18:31,415 --> 01:18:35,555
At the same time as you already have a giant pot of money

1189
01:18:35,555 --> 01:18:39,575
that's designed to rightly allow your pastors

1190
01:18:39,575 --> 01:18:41,135
to have some sort of retirement.

1191
01:18:41,675 --> 01:18:43,495
So my point is,

1192
01:18:43,575 --> 01:18:45,375
what you're saying is not somehow inconsistent

1193
01:18:45,375 --> 01:18:47,215
with what you're already doing.

1194
01:18:47,555 --> 01:18:50,735
You're bringing up a specific investment

1195
01:18:50,735 --> 01:18:52,215
or a specific savings technology

1196
01:18:52,215 --> 01:18:55,115
that is already in line with a principle

1197
01:18:55,115 --> 01:18:58,175
that the Presbytery has already agreed on, right?

1198
01:18:58,175 --> 01:18:58,475
Right.

1199
01:18:58,655 --> 01:19:01,415
So we didn't even talk about the moral aspect

1200
01:19:01,415 --> 01:19:03,615
of Bitcoin as a principle.

1201
01:19:04,055 --> 01:19:04,895
Like, I mean, it's like,

1202
01:19:05,615 --> 01:19:08,195
sound money is good.

1203
01:19:08,695 --> 01:19:08,955
Yes.

1204
01:19:08,955 --> 01:19:27,795
And so I think one of the things that I just come down to is in as somebody who I never I've never formally studied logic, but I mean, all day long, I was a philosophy major and all day long, I'm constantly just putting my my own ideas, other people that I'm just constantly putting them through the ringer.

1205
01:19:27,795 --> 01:19:33,795
And then along with that is just a sense of risk management.

1206
01:19:34,875 --> 01:19:37,675
And so this idea of, again, this idea of what if you're wrong?

1207
01:19:38,215 --> 01:19:47,215
If you're wrong, if we're wrong, if Bitcoin people are wrong, and you've allocated 10% to Bitcoin, then you've lost 10%.

1208
01:19:47,215 --> 01:19:54,875
The reality is if you've held the S&P 500, it has 10% drops.

1209
01:19:54,875 --> 01:19:57,955
we can identify them in the last 15 years.

1210
01:19:58,035 --> 01:20:00,335
We can identify ones where it was significantly more than that.

1211
01:20:01,195 --> 01:20:03,955
And so the problem is, what if we're right

1212
01:20:03,955 --> 01:20:06,095
and you have no exposure to Bitcoin?

1213
01:20:07,015 --> 01:20:10,475
Then you're missing out and fiat collapses.

1214
01:20:10,875 --> 01:20:12,915
Then that's not good risk management.

1215
01:20:13,035 --> 01:20:14,295
If you crunch the numbers on that,

1216
01:20:14,375 --> 01:20:16,515
it's not going to, you've put yourself

1217
01:20:16,515 --> 01:20:17,975
in the worst possible situation.

1218
01:20:18,675 --> 01:20:19,475
And so-

1219
01:20:19,475 --> 01:20:23,035
Did it just come out, was it a couple of weeks ago

1220
01:20:23,035 --> 01:20:25,635
that gold has actually outperformed S&P

1221
01:20:25,635 --> 01:20:26,575
in the last 20 years?

1222
01:20:26,735 --> 01:20:27,275
I can't remember.

1223
01:20:27,415 --> 01:20:27,555
Yeah.

1224
01:20:27,915 --> 01:20:28,715
Isn't that crazy?

1225
01:20:29,215 --> 01:20:29,435
Yeah.

1226
01:20:29,435 --> 01:20:30,035
That's crazy.

1227
01:20:30,695 --> 01:20:31,635
It is and it isn't.

1228
01:20:31,695 --> 01:20:32,475
This is what I've been saying.

1229
01:20:32,535 --> 01:20:34,755
Again, this is like Jim McAndrew.

1230
01:20:34,855 --> 01:20:35,415
This is what I'm saying.

1231
01:20:35,735 --> 01:20:36,575
This is for you, man.

1232
01:20:36,935 --> 01:20:38,915
Like the gold people, they sound dumb.

1233
01:20:39,175 --> 01:20:42,035
Like they sound dumb and they're wrong for years.

1234
01:20:42,655 --> 01:20:43,975
Quote unquote wrong for years.

1235
01:20:43,975 --> 01:20:45,755
If you're just talking about sheer performance,

1236
01:20:45,875 --> 01:20:46,775
which Christians shouldn't do.

1237
01:20:47,135 --> 01:20:48,915
But if you're even just looking at pure performance,

1238
01:20:49,255 --> 01:20:50,795
just like Christians,

1239
01:20:50,795 --> 01:20:52,735
we can look wrong

1240
01:20:52,735 --> 01:20:54,875
and look dumb for a long period

1241
01:20:54,875 --> 01:20:56,995
of time before we were revealed

1242
01:20:56,995 --> 01:20:58,135
to be right in the end

1243
01:20:58,135 --> 01:21:01,015
it's not about

1244
01:21:01,015 --> 01:21:03,075
being proved right over a short

1245
01:21:03,075 --> 01:21:04,175
period of time

1246
01:21:04,175 --> 01:21:06,135
a little mini

1247
01:21:06,135 --> 01:21:08,015
eschatological

1248
01:21:08,015 --> 01:21:10,215
moment there

1249
01:21:10,215 --> 01:21:12,175
you can be wrong

1250
01:21:12,175 --> 01:21:14,375
you can look wrong

1251
01:21:14,375 --> 01:21:17,315
yeah we're gonna look wrong to a lot of people

1252
01:21:17,315 --> 01:21:17,795
yeah

1253
01:21:19,555 --> 01:21:19,915
uh

1254
01:21:20,795 --> 01:21:35,699
And then Jesus promises no you right Yeah exactly Don worry about it And I think another thing there that really helpful to us is to go we don have to worry about being right Yeah We don have to worry about it

1255
01:21:35,779 --> 01:21:37,339
And I'm talking about the gospel, right?

1256
01:21:37,399 --> 01:21:38,059
I'm talking about the gospel.

1257
01:21:38,299 --> 01:21:39,639
We don't have to worry about being right.

1258
01:21:39,839 --> 01:21:41,459
Our job is to do our job.

1259
01:21:41,979 --> 01:21:42,119
Yep.

1260
01:21:42,839 --> 01:21:44,719
And that's a helpful lesson.

1261
01:21:44,839 --> 01:21:49,819
Again, this is where these metaphors comparing Bitcoin and Christianity can help us going both ways.

1262
01:21:49,819 --> 01:21:54,999
because there are people, and I mean, some of us on this call may have even been in this situation,

1263
01:21:55,259 --> 01:22:04,919
where you are so over the top talking about Bitcoin with certain people that it can do more harm than good

1264
01:22:04,919 --> 01:22:13,299
or it can prolong things because the sheer overwhelming nature of the response

1265
01:22:13,299 --> 01:22:18,439
and of the reality of what's going on can kind of distract, even though it's not justified,

1266
01:22:18,439 --> 01:22:22,739
It can still distract from the reality and the truthfulness of what you're saying.

1267
01:22:22,879 --> 01:22:24,359
And so, yeah.

1268
01:22:24,359 --> 01:22:37,999
Well, I'll say, too, I want to make it very clear that my heart is with the institutional level understanding and of Bitcoin.

1269
01:22:38,259 --> 01:22:40,879
My day in and day out, I'm an evangelist.

1270
01:22:40,959 --> 01:22:42,699
I love talking to people about Jesus.

1271
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:43,499
Yeah.

1272
01:22:43,499 --> 01:22:47,479
I'm going to say this, and probably later they'll be like,

1273
01:22:47,559 --> 01:22:51,699
I still don't think half my church doesn't know I even do Bitcoin.

1274
01:22:52,839 --> 01:22:54,739
Now, it's going to come out because we're going to start our own

1275
01:22:54,739 --> 01:22:57,619
Bitcoin stewardship reserve policy soon.

1276
01:22:57,719 --> 01:23:03,979
But anyway, my point there is, like, my focus has been

1277
01:23:03,979 --> 01:23:10,999
and will continue to be, as best I can, that institutional level curiosity,

1278
01:23:10,999 --> 01:23:15,259
developing that curiosity with churches and presbyteries in our denomination.

1279
01:23:15,959 --> 01:23:32,039
And because I do think on a micro level, it could free us up to make a larger impact as we, again, I've said this before, God is going to bring about his kingdom.

1280
01:23:32,039 --> 01:23:35,939
it's not in the sense

1281
01:23:35,939 --> 01:23:37,039
I don't feel like

1282
01:23:37,039 --> 01:23:38,459
some people say

1283
01:23:38,459 --> 01:23:39,179
where they say

1284
01:23:39,179 --> 01:23:39,919
like

1285
01:23:39,919 --> 01:23:41,699
I have to bring

1286
01:23:41,699 --> 01:23:43,359
bring God's kingdom

1287
01:23:43,359 --> 01:23:44,999
I don't have to bring

1288
01:23:44,999 --> 01:23:45,559
God's kingdom

1289
01:23:45,559 --> 01:23:46,719
I'm just saying

1290
01:23:46,719 --> 01:23:48,219
the curiosity

1291
01:23:48,219 --> 01:23:48,979
the venture

1292
01:23:48,979 --> 01:23:50,199
the

1293
01:23:50,199 --> 01:23:52,919
eschatological promises

1294
01:23:52,919 --> 01:23:53,459
of

1295
01:23:53,459 --> 01:23:55,539
eternal relationship

1296
01:23:55,539 --> 01:23:55,959
with the Lord

1297
01:23:55,959 --> 01:23:56,299
and here

1298
01:23:56,299 --> 01:23:57,879
freeze us up

1299
01:23:57,879 --> 01:23:59,499
to jump into these

1300
01:23:59,499 --> 01:24:01,499
to jump into these things

1301
01:24:01,499 --> 01:24:02,899
with wisdom and humility.

1302
01:24:03,259 --> 01:24:04,319
So that's what I'm going to do.

1303
01:24:04,499 --> 01:24:05,119
That's what I'm saying.

1304
01:24:05,679 --> 01:24:06,419
So, yep.

1305
01:24:06,759 --> 01:24:07,159
Yeah.

1306
01:24:07,199 --> 01:24:11,159
And this is, I mean, the last thing I think we can say on this or should say, and I'll

1307
01:24:11,159 --> 01:24:15,899
give you the last word here in a second would just be in a, there's a very similar relationship

1308
01:24:15,899 --> 01:24:22,299
between the way that the apostle Paul describes the ability of a believing wife to win her

1309
01:24:22,299 --> 01:24:28,139
unbelieving husband to, to Jesus, like through her conduct, through her character, like your

1310
01:24:28,139 --> 01:24:35,579
character can speak truth in reality in ways that your words can't necessarily. And so I would just

1311
01:24:35,579 --> 01:24:39,019
encourage, if you're a Christian Bitcoiner out there, one of the most helpful things that you

1312
01:24:39,019 --> 01:24:54,922
can do to add credibility to your Bitcoin profession and your Bitcoin conviction is to be an encouragement to your pastor is to love and serve the people in your church is to love people around you well

1313
01:24:55,002 --> 01:25:00,162
your neighbors, your family, whatever it is. Because again, that can be something that can

1314
01:25:00,162 --> 01:25:08,802
be a tipping point, a decision maker, and whether or not people respect and are willing to give you

1315
01:25:08,802 --> 01:25:15,662
a hearing wrongly or rightly. That's a factor that will just necessarily come into play.

1316
01:25:16,422 --> 01:25:23,122
So that's just an encouragement to us to consider our manner of life, to quote the scriptures.

1317
01:25:23,782 --> 01:25:28,842
Yes, there's a Jesus way to do it. For some reason in God's counsel,

1318
01:25:29,902 --> 01:25:38,222
Jesus didn't come until he came. Wasn't nobody going to rush him, you know? And so there's a

1319
01:25:38,222 --> 01:25:39,502
pattern there for us to go,

1320
01:25:40,362 --> 01:25:41,482
you know,

1321
01:25:42,122 --> 01:25:44,102
absolutely hold your conviction

1322
01:25:44,102 --> 01:25:46,262
and bridle that with

1323
01:25:46,262 --> 01:25:50,062
your character and the way

1324
01:25:50,062 --> 01:25:51,982
in which you go about seeking

1325
01:25:51,982 --> 01:25:54,062
to quote orange-filled people, right?

1326
01:25:54,242 --> 01:25:54,642
Yep.

1327
01:25:56,462 --> 01:25:57,942
Ben, appreciate you, brother.

1328
01:25:58,062 --> 01:25:59,962
Grateful for you. Tell people where they can

1329
01:25:59,962 --> 01:26:02,202
find you insofar

1330
01:26:02,202 --> 01:26:03,582
as you want them to be able to find you.

1331
01:26:04,242 --> 01:26:05,562
Oh, I mean, you know,

1332
01:26:05,862 --> 01:26:08,202
I poke around on X a little bit.

1333
01:26:08,222 --> 01:26:38,202
Uh, B Haley five, five is my handle. Um, I'm just, I just do, I'm just a pastor day in and day out. And I just want to say, Jordan, I really appreciate your hard work takes a ton of courage, has taken a ton of courage for you to step into, uh, developing something like, thank God for Bitcoin and your conviction and your courage does not go unnoticed.

1334
01:26:38,222 --> 01:26:44,222
and I have deeply appreciated the camaraderie,

1335
01:26:44,282 --> 01:26:46,682
first of all, brotherhood in Christ for sure,

1336
01:26:47,502 --> 01:26:51,842
but also the shared interest in the love for the church

1337
01:26:51,842 --> 01:26:57,002
and all the hard work you do to try to help people understand it.

1338
01:26:57,062 --> 01:26:58,622
This podcast takes a ton of work.

1339
01:26:59,162 --> 01:27:02,022
So I just wanted to say that for sure.

1340
01:27:02,142 --> 01:27:03,842
Thank you so much for having me,

1341
01:27:03,962 --> 01:27:06,542
and I really hope it's been helpful.

1342
01:27:06,542 --> 01:27:10,882
so grateful grateful for that brother thank you so much and again this won't be the last time we'll

1343
01:27:10,882 --> 01:27:15,542
have you back uh well we need to do some more uh like roundtable stuff because those are some of the

1344
01:27:15,542 --> 01:27:19,902
some of the best conversations you can have on the podcast it's just like you know before or after

1345
01:27:19,902 --> 01:27:26,742
so anyhow we're grateful for all of you guys go follow ben on on twitter i refuse to call it x

1346
01:27:26,742 --> 01:27:33,502
uh go follow him there go find us like and subscribe on x on facebook on youtube that

1347
01:27:33,502 --> 01:27:38,302
helps other people find these resources. If you have questions, reach out to us. We're happy to

1348
01:27:38,302 --> 01:27:44,302
do anything in our power to help. And we'll be back on Tuesday for another episode of the

1349
01:27:44,302 --> 01:27:46,962
Thank God for Bitcoin podcast. Thank you.