1 00:00:04,979 --> 00:00:05,720 Hey, hey. 2 00:00:07,370 --> 00:00:08,480 What's up, what's up, what's up? 3 00:00:09,599 --> 00:00:10,440 Freedom Tech. 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:11,740 Whatever. 5 00:00:12,530 --> 00:00:13,060 We are live. 6 00:00:13,940 --> 00:00:16,299 I'm checking here to make sure that the sound is working. 7 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:18,100 Let's go. 8 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:20,080 Alright. 9 00:00:20,810 --> 00:00:21,760 It's working on X. 10 00:00:22,530 --> 00:00:24,220 Jump over to the YouTube real quick. 11 00:00:24,740 --> 00:00:26,040 Check that out as well. 12 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:28,020 Move that window over here. 13 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:30,180 Get my setup going. 14 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:32,660 Hope you're all doing great today. 15 00:00:32,750 --> 00:00:33,360 It is Friday. 16 00:00:33,980 --> 00:00:34,680 Feeling good. 17 00:00:35,940 --> 00:00:38,880 Freedom Tech Weekend is here, and we've got a tool for you. 18 00:00:39,180 --> 00:00:43,420 This one is coming by way of audience choice, if you will. 19 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:46,200 So let's just go here. 20 00:00:46,380 --> 00:00:47,740 All right, we got live on YouTube. 21 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:51,620 Okay, and we've got streaming audio. 22 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:52,380 Sweet. 23 00:00:52,660 --> 00:00:53,100 Okay. 24 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,100 And, of course, I have Bitcoin Prize open. 25 00:00:58,980 --> 00:01:01,440 If you guys care, Bitcoin is above $95,000. 26 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:03,240 Again, today is what? 27 00:01:04,110 --> 00:01:05,360 April 25th, 2025. 28 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:07,780 Welcome to Freedom Tech Weekend. 29 00:01:09,100 --> 00:01:10,260 Let's stream together. 30 00:01:10,580 --> 00:01:11,560 We've got three people watching. 31 00:01:11,780 --> 00:01:12,580 Hello to the three. 32 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,000 And I assume we will have more people jumping in 33 00:01:17,039 --> 00:01:18,860 because these are exciting times. 34 00:01:20,259 --> 00:01:21,660 And it is the weekend. 35 00:01:21,960 --> 00:01:23,420 People want to learn about a new tool 36 00:01:23,450 --> 00:01:24,880 that they can play with over the weekend. 37 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:34,700 and that's what we're doing here together on freedom tech weekend we uh we have lots of tools 38 00:01:34,700 --> 00:01:40,100 that we use in our life lots of software apps tools servers you name it pretty much anything 39 00:01:40,210 --> 00:01:46,020 you do on a device is interacting with some kind of app or service and so a lot of those are built 40 00:01:46,030 --> 00:01:53,600 by companies that are commercial closed source and try to keep your data to themselves and they're 41 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,860 going to monetize your data, but really we could be keeping the data for ourselves using their 42 00:01:59,020 --> 00:02:03,220 tools. And we could, if we need to pay them, we can pay them, but we can pay them for the software, 43 00:02:04,060 --> 00:02:08,420 but we keep the data for ourselves and we can use that. So that's really the more healthy 44 00:02:08,619 --> 00:02:13,820 relationship that we would have rather than services giving us something for free, but then 45 00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:20,620 monetizing our data and using it at will. I'm quickly going to sign into X over here on my 46 00:02:20,620 --> 00:02:26,140 demo computer because I have not done that and I would like to be signed in so give me one second 47 00:02:26,290 --> 00:02:32,960 because I want to show something off while we're there so if you're just joining us for the first 48 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:41,020 time the way that I am doing my setup now is that um demoing live streaming from my computer and 49 00:02:42,010 --> 00:02:46,900 and running software especially if I'm doing things like AI models that really tax the system 50 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,400 I don't want to interrupt the stream by doing that so I actually have a home 51 00:02:51,540 --> 00:02:57,280 server that I use now for my demo environment and that's where I'm going 52 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,600 to do everything it's nice too because it's kind of a clean environment 53 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:05,840 compared to my work environment where things get kind of messy and choppy so 54 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,100 it gives me a little more privacy 55 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:18,080 Oh wait, I'm signing into the wrong one. Hello. We're up to five people now. Hello 56 00:03:18,220 --> 00:03:24,060 to the five people. Feel free to hop in the chat. Let me open up the chat. Chat, 57 00:03:24,260 --> 00:03:29,300 where you at? Sweet. Okay. Feel free to post comments in there if you voted on 58 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:35,360 the poll. I posted a poll a couple days ago just to ask what y'all wanted to 59 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,880 explore today. So feel free to post them there or if you just want to say what's 60 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,360 up do that as well. 61 00:03:53,180 --> 00:03:57,560 Every day I do this, every week I do this, I feel like I get things down a 62 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:02,820 little bit better as to not waste anyone's time on here with this setup 63 00:04:02,820 --> 00:04:08,640 stuff. Pretty soon this can be a well-oiled machine. We'll jump right into it and things 64 00:04:08,730 --> 00:04:25,440 will be going well. Okay, great. So we're here now. I hope that my mouse isn't too loud. Let me, 65 00:04:26,130 --> 00:04:31,100 I usually have like a mouse pad during streams and I don't. So I'm going to use the nearest 66 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:38,160 thing to me, which is this book, the Satoshi Papers. So, by Reflections on Political Economy 67 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:43,940 After Bitcoin, edited by Annalise Molenski. I'm going to turn it upside down so I don't 68 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:52,020 ruin the cover here, but let's do this. Okay, great. Cool, cool, cool. Well, now we can 69 00:04:52,140 --> 00:04:59,780 jump right into it. Let's get going, everybody. Thank you for bearing with me. All right, 70 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:00,480 Let me share my screen. 71 00:05:01,660 --> 00:05:03,120 And again, feel free to make any comments. 72 00:05:03,860 --> 00:05:05,180 Ask questions along the way. 73 00:05:05,390 --> 00:05:07,360 We're up to seven listeners now, viewers. 74 00:05:08,380 --> 00:05:08,760 This is great. 75 00:05:10,140 --> 00:05:10,820 Hit share. 76 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,760 Let me make sure that, all right, I'm down in the corner there. 77 00:05:14,980 --> 00:05:15,180 Sweet. 78 00:05:15,500 --> 00:05:16,540 We've got our screen going. 79 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,160 Got a nice little Freedom Tech Weekend background. 80 00:05:19,740 --> 00:05:20,500 Okay, sweet. 81 00:05:20,980 --> 00:05:23,520 So back on Wednesday, I posted this poll. 82 00:05:23,670 --> 00:05:26,940 I had two tools that I wanted to cover, and I didn't know which one to do. 83 00:05:27,570 --> 00:05:28,580 So I just put it to a vote. 84 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:30,640 And we did it. 85 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,640 I didn't sign into Noster on here. 86 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,600 So, well, Noster trended the same way. 87 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:38,440 We put out a vote. 88 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:39,720 Which one do you want to cover? 89 00:05:39,860 --> 00:05:43,800 Bitwarden, which is a password manager, an open source password manager. 90 00:05:43,940 --> 00:05:47,580 It also has a companion that the community created called Vaultwarden. 91 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,300 And then there is Orion, the web browser built by Kagi. 92 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:56,480 And Kagi is a company that became famous for having a privacy version of search. 93 00:05:57,740 --> 00:06:04,560 So after a couple thousand views, we got 66 votes in the poll, and the people spoke. 94 00:06:05,110 --> 00:06:05,600 You all spoke. 95 00:06:05,930 --> 00:06:07,780 We're doing Orion, and that's what we're going to cover today. 96 00:06:08,340 --> 00:06:09,020 But have no fear. 97 00:06:09,280 --> 00:06:11,020 We will cover Bitwarden next week. 98 00:06:11,460 --> 00:06:11,940 That's what we'll do. 99 00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:16,360 We'll cover both Bitwarden and Vaultwarden, how those two work together, which one is 100 00:06:16,370 --> 00:06:22,780 a company, which one is a community, and we'll try and talk about all of that. 101 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:23,860 Great. 102 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:25,920 So we're jumping into Orion today. 103 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:26,520 Thanks for voting. 104 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:28,720 I'll try and do these kinds of things more often. 105 00:06:29,030 --> 00:06:32,820 Obviously, next week, I already said we're doing Bitwarden, but I would love feedback. 106 00:06:33,620 --> 00:06:37,400 People, please suggest things to me that you want to cover and want us to go over, and 107 00:06:37,470 --> 00:06:38,000 we will do that. 108 00:06:39,140 --> 00:06:39,240 Okay. 109 00:06:41,180 --> 00:06:42,360 So, let's jump into it. 110 00:06:43,100 --> 00:06:43,660 What is Kagi? 111 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:49,380 Kagi is our company that we're focusing on today, but really, it's a project Orion. 112 00:06:50,050 --> 00:06:54,739 But Kagi started as a web search company, doing their own index of the internet, and 113 00:06:54,740 --> 00:07:02,280 then trying to give people a private version of web search. And it's a paid service. Again, 114 00:07:02,610 --> 00:07:07,760 the idea behind that is that you are paying for the software, so you are no longer the product, 115 00:07:07,930 --> 00:07:12,420 you are paying for the product. And then they are incentivized to make the best, 116 00:07:12,970 --> 00:07:18,620 most private version of search for you, rather than displaying ads, rather than tracking you, 117 00:07:18,780 --> 00:07:22,139 all that stuff. That is not part of their business model, so they're not incentivized 118 00:07:22,140 --> 00:07:26,740 to do that kind of stuff. Well, they have made their own browser because who doesn't have their 119 00:07:26,740 --> 00:07:31,600 own browser these days? Do you have your own browser? I have built a browser before. It is not 120 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:42,300 a fun, fun thing to do. Okay. So they came out with their own browser a few months ago. It's 121 00:07:42,340 --> 00:07:50,039 called Orion. They claim it to be incredibly fast. It's built on the WebKit engine, which 122 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,360 Chrome used to be WebKit and then they moved over to their own Chromium engine. 123 00:07:56,539 --> 00:08:02,180 And they claim zero telemetry and we will go into that. They also have web extension support 124 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:08,200 and a built-in ad blocker. So they're taking a lot of things that people liked about say Firefox 125 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:16,619 or Brave and they're trying to take it even a step further. All right and I like the call out 126 00:08:16,620 --> 00:08:22,480 here, certified snappy. Any of you who have been around the Apple ecosystem for long enough, 127 00:08:23,220 --> 00:08:28,380 snappy is one of those funny things. If you know, you know. Look it up sometime. In fact, 128 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:37,180 I've got Maple here. What is the snappy reference with Safari web browser and Apple? 129 00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:45,379 Maple is our private AI chat that we use on all of these streams. It is actually an AI chat that 130 00:08:45,380 --> 00:08:51,340 I build with me and my co-founder, but this is 100% encrypted, no tracking, totally private. 131 00:08:52,290 --> 00:09:00,420 All right, so here it is. Basically, from every Apple event, developer conference, 132 00:09:00,890 --> 00:09:05,880 or even their more, what am I trying to say, marketing-focused Apple events, 133 00:09:06,730 --> 00:09:10,720 they love to talk about when a new version of Safari comes out, it is snappier than the one, 134 00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:17,720 faster than the one previous to it. This says in 2020 is when it was referenced, but it goes back 135 00:09:17,820 --> 00:09:21,940 a lot farther than that. And I think this is just saying in 2020, he was kind of referencing the 136 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:31,880 joke. So kudos to you, Kagi, for continuing it. All right. They have this privacy matrix here on 137 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,179 their page. And I actually want to bring this up because somebody on Noster, when I shared this on 138 00:09:36,180 --> 00:09:42,680 primal they they mentioned that that Orion or that Kagi was not being 139 00:09:42,820 --> 00:09:49,000 totally up and up on their privacy claims so I'm going to call this out I 140 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,020 don't have Nostra logged in on the thing that I'm screen sharing so I'm 141 00:09:52,020 --> 00:09:57,580 gonna read this to you instead and then I actually got a response from Kagi that 142 00:09:57,580 --> 00:10:03,079 I will read as well let me jump in here 143 00:10:07,420 --> 00:10:07,940 Okay. 144 00:10:08,980 --> 00:10:12,380 So somebody said, hey, I went to their page. 145 00:10:12,450 --> 00:10:15,440 I highly doubt that they are very important in the privacy market. 146 00:10:15,570 --> 00:10:18,900 What privacy company makes a browser comparison without including 147 00:10:19,300 --> 00:10:22,200 Mulvad Browser and Brave Browser or Onion Browser? 148 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:26,180 I am rather vowing for strengthening open source projects like Firefox 149 00:10:26,410 --> 00:10:30,139 and Mr. Riddles instead of short-sighted projects acting kind of disconnected 150 00:10:30,140 --> 00:10:36,000 since whichever project that is improving on Firefox will help all users of Firefox derivatives 151 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,320 where opting in the Apple ecosystem cannot lead to transparency and openness. 152 00:10:40,930 --> 00:10:43,320 The Apple company is not part of transparency in the open source. 153 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,460 So no way to verify whatever claims. 154 00:10:47,090 --> 00:10:52,840 So there's, in my take, and this is tough because, like, it's tough having a debate over a stream 155 00:10:53,370 --> 00:10:54,860 where, oh, what's going on over here? 156 00:10:55,980 --> 00:10:56,740 Speaking of Apple. 157 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:00,140 Stalling iOS 17 runtime. 158 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:00,880 Hello. 159 00:11:02,900 --> 00:11:06,800 But it's hard having a debate on a stream because it's kind of one way, right? 160 00:11:06,940 --> 00:11:10,400 I can read your thing and then I get to pontificate however I want to. 161 00:11:10,990 --> 00:11:18,180 But what I will try and say here is that, well, one, they are bringing up Brave here on their comparison. 162 00:11:18,690 --> 00:11:19,560 And they bring up Firefox. 163 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:21,380 No, they do not list Moldad. 164 00:11:21,660 --> 00:11:22,860 So, sure, they can add that. 165 00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:24,960 But they do have Brave on here. 166 00:11:25,860 --> 00:11:28,580 And then WebKit is open source. 167 00:11:29,460 --> 00:11:31,440 Sure, it is supported by a company. 168 00:11:32,140 --> 00:11:33,520 Apple is the one supporting that one. 169 00:11:34,060 --> 00:11:40,040 But a lot of major open source projects are financially backed by large corporations. 170 00:11:40,980 --> 00:11:42,560 But they still develop out in the open. 171 00:11:44,700 --> 00:11:48,920 I'm trying to get back to the comment just to make sure that I can respond to the rest of it here. 172 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:51,460 And then Firefox. 173 00:11:51,660 --> 00:11:52,380 You bring up Firefox. 174 00:11:53,220 --> 00:11:55,460 They have their own hot water when it comes to privacy. 175 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:07,840 If you don't remember, a couple months ago, they updated their terms of service and their privacy policy to make it sound like they were going to start monetizing user data that they were collecting and telemedic data that they were collecting. 176 00:12:08,170 --> 00:12:14,320 So I know that they tried to backtrack on that a little bit, and they released an updated version beyond that and made a statement. 177 00:12:15,279 --> 00:12:20,060 And so supposedly they're not doing that, but go look it up. 178 00:12:21,260 --> 00:12:24,000 You can go look into that yourself. 179 00:12:24,580 --> 00:12:28,600 But a lot of people in the privacy community said, farewell to Firefox. 180 00:12:28,980 --> 00:12:32,620 There's been a lot of paper cuts along the way, and this was just the final one. 181 00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:43,000 But I agree with the overall statement of this comment, that we should be supporting open source projects and helping to create great derivatives from that. 182 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:52,620 In my mind, Orion is a great derivative from the open source WebKit project, and they're trying to build something that is private. 183 00:12:53,340 --> 00:12:55,840 All right, and let's go look at one of these claims. 184 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,880 So they have zero telemetry on by default is what they say. 185 00:13:00,699 --> 00:13:03,280 There has been an independent audit. 186 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,460 If you're not familiar with this, this is called Size of Cat. 187 00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:08,440 It is a website, not a blog. 188 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,100 It is a website that writes articles and really dives deep into some of the stuff, 189 00:13:13,340 --> 00:13:18,120 and they have a browser-focused telemetry 2025 edition that they do. 190 00:13:18,940 --> 00:13:19,880 And they have tons here. 191 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,060 They've got Vivaldi browser, which I'd love to cover in the future, 192 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,040 Tor browser, Onion browser with Onion routing, which that comment brought up. 193 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,260 Tor is also very privacy focused, but I think that we're always making trade-offs, right? 194 00:13:31,700 --> 00:13:38,900 And Onion browser, or sorry, Orion is focused on using your main computer, your main network. 195 00:13:39,620 --> 00:13:45,780 Maybe you're going over VPN, but it's a different relationship or arrangement than using Tor, 196 00:13:45,940 --> 00:13:50,040 because Tor is going completely over the Tor network, the Onion routing network. 197 00:13:51,260 --> 00:13:57,800 And that has its own trade-offs with speed as well as not knowing the exit nodes and that kind of stuff. 198 00:13:57,870 --> 00:14:02,840 So I think that the two are great for their own purposes. 199 00:14:04,279 --> 00:14:06,640 Okay, let's jump down to Kagi Orion. 200 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:17,260 And here's their, what they do, what Size of Cat does is go through and monitor using tools, tools similar to Little Snitch. 201 00:14:17,540 --> 00:14:19,540 I actually don't know which direct one they're using, 202 00:14:19,590 --> 00:14:22,920 but they use tools to monitor how many network connections are going out 203 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:25,940 from a specific app as it's running. 204 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,600 And they saw that there were zero network connections going out from Orion 205 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,840 other than the direct network connection that you were making 206 00:14:36,390 --> 00:14:37,520 to the website that you're going to. 207 00:14:37,610 --> 00:14:39,460 So obviously, if you're trying to pull up a website, 208 00:14:39,570 --> 00:14:41,920 this is an internet browser, so if you're trying to pull up a website, 209 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:43,980 it's going to make a network connection out to there, 210 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,080 but it's not making any other erroneous or extra ones. 211 00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:50,180 So you can look at some of these other browsers, right, 212 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,700 and look at how many things that they're doing. 213 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,000 For example, let me scroll real quick. 214 00:14:55,340 --> 00:14:57,140 Sorry, I'm making me feel sick here. 215 00:14:57,660 --> 00:14:59,320 Let's look at Firefox as the first on the list. 216 00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:01,900 So their engine is the Gecko engine, 217 00:15:02,959 --> 00:15:04,580 and this is their application size, 218 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:07,100 and they make 29 extra calls. 219 00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:10,540 They open up the TCP connections over different ports. 220 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:12,700 Are they all TCP? 221 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:14,720 Oh, there's some UDP as well. 222 00:15:15,130 --> 00:15:17,200 But they're making connections to other things. 223 00:15:17,780 --> 00:15:21,100 Services.location.services.mozilla.com. 224 00:15:22,620 --> 00:15:24,020 We don't know what that's doing. 225 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:25,960 It's encrypted over 443, 226 00:15:26,610 --> 00:15:28,580 but it is calling something called location services. 227 00:15:29,390 --> 00:15:31,140 Now, Mozilla is actually doing that, 228 00:15:31,140 --> 00:15:33,060 so it's probably trying to figure out 229 00:15:33,750 --> 00:15:35,020 some information about where you are. 230 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,020 They don't have to name it that way. 231 00:15:37,060 --> 00:15:38,220 They could have named it something else, 232 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:43,040 like superprivateprotection.mozilla.com, 233 00:15:43,250 --> 00:15:44,780 but really it's looking at your location. 234 00:15:47,260 --> 00:15:49,940 So the point is, any of these extra things, 235 00:15:50,260 --> 00:15:51,500 we don't know exactly what they're doing, 236 00:15:51,630 --> 00:15:53,380 and there are all sorts of possibilities 237 00:15:53,850 --> 00:15:57,900 for IP addresses to be leaked and logged somewhere, 238 00:15:58,520 --> 00:15:59,860 location to be leaked and logged, 239 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,940 or really any other information that you don't know 240 00:16:03,950 --> 00:16:05,540 and that you don't want being shared with other people. 241 00:16:06,860 --> 00:16:08,059 Now, of all these and other browsers 242 00:16:08,060 --> 00:16:10,420 that I wanted to go over sometime on the stream, 243 00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:12,320 and it looks like they actually make 11 network connections. 244 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:14,720 So I'm going to be keeping my eye on it a little bit more. 245 00:16:14,740 --> 00:16:19,480 I think this is an interesting metric to watch with size of cat. 246 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:27,800 Okay, now I did receive an official word back from Kagi. 247 00:16:28,020 --> 00:16:31,780 I asked him to respond to the question that was raised. 248 00:16:32,140 --> 00:16:35,440 I don't want to dock myself, so I'm not going to bring it up. 249 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,000 Actually, let me just stop sharing my screen and then I can pull it up on Twitter. 250 00:16:42,170 --> 00:16:43,340 So I'm going to pull up my DMs. 251 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:44,940 Stop sharing. 252 00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:47,140 Just for a second here. 253 00:16:47,810 --> 00:16:49,720 Okay, let me pull up my DMs from Kagi. 254 00:16:58,860 --> 00:17:00,760 Okay, how can I make this perfect? 255 00:17:01,300 --> 00:17:01,620 There we go. 256 00:17:02,210 --> 00:17:02,380 All right. 257 00:17:03,180 --> 00:17:04,600 There's nothing sensitive in here. 258 00:17:12,139 --> 00:17:15,980 okay perfect here we go i'll start sharing my screen again 259 00:17:22,659 --> 00:17:29,300 okay so here's the response from kagi they said hi there regarding the comment brave is there 260 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,700 in the chart not so not sure why they what they mean ask for the rest it's not realistic to 261 00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:36,180 against every other browser on the market. 262 00:17:36,430 --> 00:17:38,760 They are welcome to perform their own independent tests 263 00:17:39,010 --> 00:17:40,240 the way that others have here. 264 00:17:40,750 --> 00:17:43,060 And then they actually point to the size of cat posts, 265 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:44,900 which I was already planning on covering. 266 00:17:45,770 --> 00:17:46,680 So that's their official response. 267 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:48,200 I really think it's cool that Kagi 268 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:50,960 was willing to reply to this 269 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,440 and give me a response because they don't need to. 270 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:54,980 They've got a lot of other stuff going on 271 00:17:55,110 --> 00:17:57,800 than to respond to some rando online 272 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,080 like me and like this other person 273 00:18:00,170 --> 00:18:01,660 that raised the concern. 274 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:03,160 So thank you, Kagi. 275 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:09,080 And now let's actually download the browser and play around with it for the last half of the stream here that we've got. 276 00:18:10,060 --> 00:18:13,640 It is going to be pretty familiar with any other app that you've done. 277 00:18:13,850 --> 00:18:14,760 They have a Mac app. 278 00:18:15,010 --> 00:18:15,880 They have an iOS app. 279 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,120 They are working on Android and other stuff. 280 00:18:18,250 --> 00:18:19,420 In fact, let's go here really quick. 281 00:18:20,420 --> 00:18:26,960 Because they don't monetize your user data, they have, you know, it says we're a self-funded enterprise. 282 00:18:27,380 --> 00:18:28,960 I'm not doing an advertisement for them. 283 00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:31,660 I'm just telling you there is a way to pay them if you want to. 284 00:18:32,420 --> 00:18:35,100 And what that comes with, I saw it somewhere. 285 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:35,760 Oh, here it was. 286 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:36,540 Okay. 287 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,080 What that means is that other apps are coming. 288 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:41,340 Where did it say Android? 289 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,520 Okay, I've looked at a lot of things, and apparently I'm missing the one that I saw before. 290 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:52,400 But Android is coming, as well as Linux, Windows, other platforms. 291 00:18:53,140 --> 00:18:54,560 Okay, we're going to download from Mac. 292 00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:59,240 All right, and we're going to do the Orion Mac installer. 293 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,180 I could go straight to an older system. 294 00:19:01,460 --> 00:19:04,620 They actually support a lot of really old systems, which is commendable. 295 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:09,980 It's really difficult to do because you have to make sure that you're plugging vulnerabilities along the way. 296 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,680 And then they have it for iPhone as well. 297 00:19:13,660 --> 00:19:15,660 Let's just grab this, download it. 298 00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:18,380 Okay. 299 00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:23,860 Pop it open here. 300 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,320 Stick it in the applications folder. 301 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,020 This is still, to me, such an odd. 302 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,640 It's both odd, but I also appreciate it. 303 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,240 The way that Mac apps are installed is you just get this thing and you drag it in there. 304 00:19:39,460 --> 00:19:42,420 Sometimes it's nice just to have an install button that does it for you. 305 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,280 But at the same time, I know exactly where it's going. 306 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,040 I know that it's sandboxed and contained. 307 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:48,800 It's not installing a bunch of extra stuff. 308 00:19:49,100 --> 00:19:57,060 So I've come to really enjoy that install experience, but it's very foreign to people who aren't used to it. 309 00:19:58,020 --> 00:19:59,600 Alright, so now let's launch Orion. 310 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:01,280 Boom, there it is. 311 00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:04,200 Do we want to launch it? Yes. 312 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,660 Now, it would be nice if they had, like, a checksum on here. 313 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:09,460 I know the browser already does a checksum, 314 00:20:09,660 --> 00:20:12,540 but sometimes I still like just comparing to make sure that I got the right thing. 315 00:20:16,460 --> 00:20:18,780 Okay, so now, well, now it's doing that install stuff. 316 00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:23,360 Do you want to play an intro video, huh? 317 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,520 Let's do it, but then we'll probably just jump out of it. 318 00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:30,160 Ooh, look how fancy this is. 319 00:20:31,740 --> 00:20:32,420 We're flying through space. 320 00:20:32,660 --> 00:20:33,100 All right, escape. 321 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:34,940 Humanize the web. 322 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:36,180 Cool, cool. 323 00:20:36,780 --> 00:20:36,860 Okay. 324 00:20:37,580 --> 00:20:39,840 Now, dock tile extension added. 325 00:20:40,300 --> 00:20:41,400 Added one dock tile extension. 326 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:42,280 You can manage extensions. 327 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,080 Okay, I'll go check that out later. 328 00:20:44,740 --> 00:20:45,560 So here we are. 329 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:46,680 They talk about speed. 330 00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:49,200 They talk about privacy by design from the beginning. 331 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,220 It supports normal web extensions, and it's a native application, 332 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:53,900 so it can run faster. 333 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:54,900 A bunch of other features. 334 00:20:55,780 --> 00:20:56,080 Hit next. 335 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:57,660 Now I can customize it. 336 00:20:57,980 --> 00:21:00,720 I'm just going to stay with the default search engine. 337 00:21:01,540 --> 00:21:04,480 They don't get paid by Google to make Google the default search engine. 338 00:21:05,060 --> 00:21:05,420 You know who does? 339 00:21:06,020 --> 00:21:06,340 Firefox. 340 00:21:07,340 --> 00:21:10,180 Firefox gets paid a lot of money by Google, allegedly. 341 00:21:10,740 --> 00:21:13,380 I don't know if it's official, but this is the word on the street. 342 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:14,580 Get paid a lot of money. 343 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,000 So, you know, it is what it is. 344 00:21:18,140 --> 00:21:20,700 But I'm going to use Kagi as a search engine. 345 00:21:20,860 --> 00:21:23,040 I don't know if it'll work because I'm not logged in or anything. 346 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:24,160 Synchronize my tabs. 347 00:21:24,860 --> 00:21:26,860 So Orion uses iCloud to sync your data. 348 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:28,760 This is interesting. 349 00:21:29,180 --> 00:21:31,460 So you can use iCloud to sync data, 350 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,840 and you can do it in a way that is private for the user 351 00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:36,320 with end-to-end encryption stuff. 352 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:37,920 Not every app does it correctly. 353 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,680 Some apps don't encrypt things correctly, 354 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,960 but iCloud makes that easy. 355 00:21:43,460 --> 00:21:46,080 However, if we're going to start using Android, 356 00:21:46,580 --> 00:21:49,100 it becomes more difficult to synchronize them across, 357 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,040 and I'm guessing that's actually one reason 358 00:21:51,140 --> 00:21:52,420 why they don't have Android support yet, 359 00:21:52,580 --> 00:21:53,800 because when you're inside the Apple ecosystem, 360 00:21:54,260 --> 00:21:56,440 It's really easy to use iCloud as your encryption mechanism. 361 00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,800 Now, this is a great place to plug. 362 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:01,380 We build one. 363 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,580 It's called OpenSecret. 364 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:04,840 OpenSecretCloud. 365 00:22:05,220 --> 00:22:06,240 Let me pull it up. 366 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:08,760 OpenSecret.Cloud. 367 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:17,400 We build an encryption synchronization platform that is like iCloud but works for all the platforms. 368 00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:24,920 So you write it once, and it works on iOS, Mac OS, Android, Linux, Windows, you name it. 369 00:22:25,740 --> 00:22:26,900 Web as well, obviously. 370 00:22:27,570 --> 00:22:30,100 You name it, you get that across all of them. 371 00:22:30,660 --> 00:22:32,980 And our first app is Maple that's built on top of this. 372 00:22:33,120 --> 00:22:33,760 It's using that technology. 373 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,580 So if you're listening, Kagi, feel free to hit us up. 374 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,080 Okay, it looks like I lost what I was looking at. 375 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:42,760 Oh, well. 376 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:43,740 Okay. 377 00:22:46,060 --> 00:22:47,240 I don't know what happened to that. 378 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:47,740 That's funny. 379 00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:51,660 I lost my little like welcome thing. Can I bring it back? 380 00:22:51,860 --> 00:22:54,520 Ooh, what happened? There we go. Nope. Can't bring it back. 381 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,520 Let's go to settings maybe. No. Okay. So we're going to, um, 382 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:03,200 well, we already pulled up a website, right? I pulled up open secret cloud, 383 00:23:04,020 --> 00:23:06,920 but let's look at some of the preferences. So I'm going to open this up here. 384 00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:10,320 Now, if you've used Safari, 385 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,280 this is very similar because they are using WebKit. 386 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:15,040 so they get a lot of similar things to Safari. 387 00:23:16,780 --> 00:23:18,820 But let's jump over to the Privacy tab here. 388 00:23:19,930 --> 00:23:23,200 So Remove Tracker from URLs for Private Browsing Only. 389 00:23:23,380 --> 00:23:25,200 I can turn that on to All Browsing if I want to. 390 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,640 It's automatically set to remove history items after three months, 391 00:23:28,930 --> 00:23:32,320 so they have some defaults in here to try and protect people who just download and run. 392 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,940 I could set that to more if I want to. 393 00:23:37,940 --> 00:23:40,340 It's manually going to delete cookies right now, 394 00:23:40,420 --> 00:23:42,120 so it's not going to delete them automatically for me. 395 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,380 but I could adjust these as I want to. 396 00:23:46,340 --> 00:23:48,640 Just watching the chat here and make sure that things are good. 397 00:23:50,260 --> 00:23:50,340 Okay. 398 00:23:53,140 --> 00:23:54,460 And this is the user agent. 399 00:23:54,660 --> 00:23:56,040 I can customize it if I want to. 400 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,700 It's funny that it's using this as the user agent. 401 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,120 It's been a long time since I messed around with user agents. 402 00:24:01,220 --> 00:24:02,600 I used to be a lot more in the know on that. 403 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:05,080 All right, content blocker. 404 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,380 So it's got its own content blocker that it does. 405 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:08,800 It has a filter list that it uses, 406 00:24:09,580 --> 00:24:11,500 and I can add my own if I want to. 407 00:24:12,340 --> 00:24:13,280 So that's pretty cool. 408 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,800 Obviously search, I've set up to use Keggy. 409 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:18,680 This is for plus users. 410 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:20,760 I'll have to look into that later. 411 00:24:22,420 --> 00:24:22,520 Okay. 412 00:24:23,060 --> 00:24:28,880 But a lot of the standard stuff that you would expect, Safari and WebKit that it's based off of, 413 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:33,900 have a lot of great privacy things built in already. 414 00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:36,620 So here's the encryption thing we're talking about. 415 00:24:36,660 --> 00:24:38,640 So the Orion keychain, they're using their own. 416 00:24:38,780 --> 00:24:40,020 I can use a third-party provider. 417 00:24:40,740 --> 00:24:43,940 So this is something that I like about Orion is that, 418 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,740 and this will dovetail into the warden, 419 00:24:46,850 --> 00:24:49,920 but most browsers just use their own password manager. 420 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,020 And so if I am, I use, I don't know about you, 421 00:24:53,030 --> 00:24:54,060 but I use a lot of browsers, right? 422 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,980 I'm using Safari, Chrome, Brave, Orion. 423 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,000 I'm going to start adding Vivaldi in the mix. 424 00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:01,080 I use a lot of different browsers. 425 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,260 And passwords get saved all over the place. 426 00:25:05,460 --> 00:25:07,700 And they always wanted me to use their password manager. 427 00:25:07,850 --> 00:25:10,140 And I just hit no because I've got my own password manager. 428 00:25:10,220 --> 00:25:16,960 and so I appreciate that this one just lets me pick a third party and do that. 429 00:25:17,550 --> 00:25:23,940 So that's nice. But you know it talks about Orion keychain is synced over 430 00:25:24,060 --> 00:25:29,520 iCloud. Disable this option to only use system keychain passwords. 431 00:25:33,460 --> 00:25:38,559 Yeah, password saving Orion's keychain can also be used in macOS iOS Safari 432 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:45,560 because it's using iCloud. Okay, that seems like a cool thing. Again, I think 433 00:25:45,570 --> 00:25:48,600 they probably are having difficulty. They're having to build an entire 434 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:53,980 solution that also works for Android and that can have cross cross platform 435 00:25:55,140 --> 00:25:59,340 capabilities, which is a lot of work. That's what we're trying to solve with 436 00:25:59,420 --> 00:26:05,539 Open Secret. Okay, well this is a web browser and here we are. I mean there's 437 00:26:05,540 --> 00:26:09,180 not much else to do other than start browsing the web, right? We could do that. I don't think you 438 00:26:09,180 --> 00:26:15,660 want to browse the web with me, but Orion is nothing too scary to use. Let's look at this. 439 00:26:15,850 --> 00:26:21,040 This reminds me of Brave where we've got this shield here, right? So privacy report, one request 440 00:26:21,270 --> 00:26:25,920 was blocked. Let's see what OpenSecret was doing. Okay, so OpenSecret is hosted on CloudFlare. 441 00:26:27,180 --> 00:26:34,119 Our marketing page is hosted on CloudFlare. So it tried to make a call out to the static.cloudflareinsights.com 442 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:38,700 and to grab a beacon.min.js. 443 00:26:39,820 --> 00:26:41,400 Well, thank you for reporting that to us 444 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:42,440 because at OpenSecret, 445 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,740 we don't want to have telemetry on our users. 446 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,240 We don't do any web analytics or any of that crap. 447 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,140 So I'm going to take a screenshot of this. 448 00:26:50,340 --> 00:26:51,080 Actually, I'm not going to, 449 00:26:51,140 --> 00:26:52,620 but I'll just make a note of this. 450 00:26:52,820 --> 00:26:53,740 And after the stream is over, 451 00:26:54,140 --> 00:26:55,580 we're going to figure out why that's being called 452 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,200 so that we can make sure we're not doing this 453 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,600 because we don't want to be tracking people unnecessarily. 454 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:01,780 So cool. 455 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:03,840 Let me pull up Try Maple and see what it does there. 456 00:27:03,940 --> 00:27:11,000 We are doing live auditing, privacy auditing of my own tools here on the stream. 457 00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:12,400 Okay, another one. 458 00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:13,500 Same thing. 459 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,640 So both of our marketing pages are using Cloudflare, 460 00:27:17,870 --> 00:27:22,020 and so they're both having that same minified JS that's being downloaded. 461 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,480 So I'll have to go back and explore that. 462 00:27:27,620 --> 00:27:27,880 Great. 463 00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:29,220 Well, thank you, Kagi. 464 00:27:29,420 --> 00:27:31,620 Thank you, Orion, for alerting me to that. 465 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:34,580 That's really kind of it today. 466 00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:36,980 Go check out Orion. 467 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,520 It's super easy to download and get going. 468 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,960 And I do not have my iPhone pulled up here on the screen, 469 00:27:43,150 --> 00:27:44,620 or we can play around with the iPhone app. 470 00:27:45,140 --> 00:27:48,280 But I've given you a taste of a new browser that you can try out, 471 00:27:48,330 --> 00:27:54,120 a privacy-aware browser that's got this cool shield thing that other browsers have. 472 00:27:54,660 --> 00:27:59,240 But what I really love is they have these claims of not tracking, right? 473 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,000 They block first-party ads by default. 474 00:28:01,150 --> 00:28:03,000 They block first-party trackers by default. 475 00:28:03,140 --> 00:28:04,380 Hello, we just saw that happen. 476 00:28:04,980 --> 00:28:06,400 Blocking third-party ads by default. 477 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,020 Brave also does that. 478 00:28:08,140 --> 00:28:11,580 And then blocking third-party trackers by default, which other people have as well. 479 00:28:12,260 --> 00:28:16,640 So Safari claims to be one of the most private browsers out there by Apple, 480 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,000 but as you can see, they only go so far. 481 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,900 They are trying to push the boundaries a little bit, 482 00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:25,560 but there's a lot more they could be doing. 483 00:28:26,020 --> 00:28:26,780 Brave's a little bit better. 484 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:28,340 Chrome, not so much. 485 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,460 In fact, today there is news that Yahoo is trying to buy Chrome. 486 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:33,560 So that's pretty funny. 487 00:28:33,770 --> 00:28:36,460 I wonder if that's because of the government trying to break up Google, 488 00:28:36,650 --> 00:28:38,800 and so now people are looking at the table scraps. 489 00:28:38,930 --> 00:28:40,120 What can they scoop up? 490 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,160 Man, that would be hilarious if Yahoo bought Chrome. 491 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:45,960 What a poetic thing to have happen. 492 00:28:46,940 --> 00:28:47,380 All right. 493 00:28:47,850 --> 00:28:49,380 Well, thank you, everybody, for joining me. 494 00:28:49,580 --> 00:28:50,880 I'm going to stop sharing the screen. 495 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,980 If you need private LLM, really, everybody should be using a private LLM. 496 00:28:59,060 --> 00:29:00,660 Add it to your toolbox, right? 497 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:06,140 maple add this to your toolbox i'm not telling you to replace chat gpt and grok and others 498 00:29:06,340 --> 00:29:12,140 with it but make it one of your things because for a lot of things you need confidentiality you 499 00:29:12,170 --> 00:29:21,400 need privacy and this is your private option for an llm try maple.ai okay go check it out 500 00:29:21,630 --> 00:29:28,239 and thank you for joining me this week on freedom tech weekend have fun playing around with orion 501 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,960 this weekend. Tell me what you find, what you like about it, what you don't like about it. 502 00:29:32,290 --> 00:29:37,500 If you have a better option out there that's more private, hit me up, let me know, and I would love 503 00:29:37,550 --> 00:29:41,500 to check that out. We've got 14 people on the stream right now. I wasn't watching that number 504 00:29:41,570 --> 00:29:46,000 to see if it got any higher during the stream, but thank you for joining me, you 14 individuals. 505 00:29:46,990 --> 00:29:54,619 Y'all are awesome. And then next week, we will be back at our regular time of 1530 UTC, and we will 506 00:29:54,620 --> 00:29:58,740 be talking about Bitwarden, Vaultwarden, how do you get your passwords under control, 507 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,580 are you using the system password manager, are you using your browser password manager, 508 00:30:03,700 --> 00:30:09,400 are you using one that's from a corporation that you don't actually, you can't see the source code, 509 00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:13,320 is it encrypted, we're going to go over all sorts of things, so it's really going to be a password 510 00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:21,140 manager show, but focusing on Vaultwarden, Bitwarden, and Vaultwarden. Okay, great, well, 511 00:30:21,460 --> 00:30:23,460 Thank you, everybody. Have a great weekend. 512 00:30:24,210 --> 00:30:31,940 And every week we're going to try and move ourselves one step away from using proprietary and closed systems. 513 00:30:32,830 --> 00:30:33,680 All right. Later. 514 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:33,820 Thank you.