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The next bear market will shock everyone and it will be so severe because everybody is expecting

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four-year cycle to stop and Bitcoin is usually always penalizing like this type of thinking but

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I think if you're in real estate times will get very tough I think there's a possibility that the

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housing market won't reach the levels it reached between 2019 and 2021 for at least the next five

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to ten years you know I think we'll have a very severe bear market and I think people will be

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shocked by how many bitcoin treasury companies will trade at maybe 0.3 to 0.5 m wow okay why do you

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think what's up guys 70 000 of you guys keep coming back every single month but 71 are not

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subscribed so you're gonna miss out on some of the great green candle content so make sure that

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you're hitting that subscribe button with the bell notification so you get notified every time i drop

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a video all right now let's get back into this great interview bing bong i am back with another

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edition of the state of bitcoin podcast where i've got the man the myth the legend leon wonk

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wonk him did i say that correctly my bad dude i've got him in the house who's uh has a great thesis

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about everything with real estate and bitcoin but i think that this is a super timely conversation

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because we're just starting to have real estate come down a little bit in the United States

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after having it shoot up like crazy during the Cerveza sickness when the whole world shut down.

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So Leon, I'm curious right now, what do you see in the housing market

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and how do you see all this playing out?

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Yeah, so three years ago when I started to share my thesis on Bitcoin demonetizing real estate,

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I was a bit worried of the thesis actually playing out because I am still active in real

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estate development.

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But the way I look at it now is since we adopted Bitcoin in our business, I'm a bit more relaxed

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and I see the thesis playing out in our favor.

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Because once you integrate Bitcoin into an existing business structure, you're actually

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benefiting from this switch or this paradigm shift.

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But I think if you're in real estate, times will get very tough because if you really

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think about what land is and what real estate is it's an inflation hedge and as interest rates go

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down prices shoot up right because there's more demand there's more liquidity and doing COVID

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we really saw how there were interest rates of you know it depends in Europe you even had

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countries like Sweden with negative interest rates so people were really forced to invest

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into property and in the US you had interest rates between 0.5 up to 2 percent so there was

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So almost free money.

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So people really went hard and invested a lot of capital in real estate.

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And that capital is now leaving the asset class.

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And if you ask me, I don't think it's coming back.

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Yes, if interest rates go down, there's more demand, more liquidity.

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But the difference is that now we have an alternative, which is Bitcoin.

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And it's a superior store value.

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It's easier to access.

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And also now that we have credit Bitcoin and credit based instruments that allow institutional investors and high net worth individuals to gain regulated exposure to Bitcoin's price with less upside, but also with less volatility.

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I think the demand for real estate in terms of receiving cash flow will also go down because you can now buy an instrument that strategy provides or some of the other treasury companies going forward.

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And I think that is also a factor that will play into less demand for real estate because people that want cash flow, they can now buy Bitcoin adjacent preferred instruments.

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yeah that's very interesting that you're you're putting it out like that but so basically do you

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think that not only is it bitcoin but also kind of the shift into the fixed income market and you

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know bitcoin's essentially taking over the the global bond market as well so are all of these

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markets essentially converging on bitcoin right now and that is what's also contributing to

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demonetizing real estate? Yes, 100%. That's what I believe. And that's what I can see as well.

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Judging from the conversations I had, so I'm still active in real estate development. We are still

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developing real estate. And most of the partners that I talk with, they do understand, of course,

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that Bitcoin has certain monetary properties, especially the absolute scarcity that is superior

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to real estate but they still think within the paradigms of the fiat system and the goal of most

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investors within the fiat paradigm is to outperform inflation either by achieving a higher return or by

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somehow receiving cash flow right and now these instruments especially strike which is a

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convertible preferred instrument that strategy has introduced has gained traction amongst the peers

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that i work with within the real estate world and i know some people who are very were very reluctant

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to put in large amounts into bitcoin but they feel comfortable putting large amounts into either

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straight up mstr the stock per se or the preferred instruments because it talks to their language it

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kind of it's the way that they think about investing right because if they want to invest

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what do they actually want to do they want to outperform inflation so outperforming inflation

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with an instrument that they know and that they are used to is something that they feel more

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comfortable with than buying bitcoin but i think over time as more people understand that there's

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products that are based on bitcoin people also navigate or tend to holding bitcoin in self-custody

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because the upside is higher but it takes time for people to get adjusted to bitcoin and if we look

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into the early years of bitcoin we had cypherpunks we had libertarians we had different use cases

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donations circumventing governments and different controls but i think now the new wave of investors

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that are coming in are sophisticated high net worth individuals that so far had no trust in

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bitcoin because the market cap quite frankly was too low and now they're looking to get and gain

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exposure to bitcoin in ways that they feel comfortable with but over time i think both

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the interest rates and the risk and the way that we assess opportunity costs it will all converge

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on bitcoin's year on year increase in purchasing power because bitcoin is going to set a new

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standard it changed the time value of money so if you work in real estate what happens is that over

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time the risk increases especially if you as you gain more success because success in real estate

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means you need to take on more debt more leverage and in bitcoin if you hold bitcoin over time the

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risk decreases because bitcoin is absolutely scarce and it grows in purchasing power so fast

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that the debt that you take on if you manage your debt correctly in relation to the bitcoin

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in their purchasing power is getting smaller and smaller so the loan to value ratio

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when you buy bitcoin on debt is decreasing so fast that the risk also compresses whereas in real

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estate the risk does not compress over time because the risk is tied to the underlying currency which

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is fear and that's the unit of account that real estate developers and real estate entrepreneurs

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account their success in because that currency over time loses purchasing power risk increases

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with bitcoin it's the opposite risk decreases over time and i think that's important to understand

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and that's a huge huge benefit of bitcoin because you can use it as a treasury asset

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to kind of anchor your business in and it doesn't matter what you do because if you think about it

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what strategy is doing is actually something that real estate developers have been doing

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since 1971 which is you take on debt in an inflationary currency you buy a hard asset

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and over time you pay back the interest rates with depreciation of your asset and the income

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and the income in real estate is cash flow the income in bitcoin is the increase in purchasing

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power since the 31st of march 2024 with the new fast fee accounting rules the increase in

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purchasing power of bitcoin is counted as income and that increase in purchasing power outperforms

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the cash flow you can generate with real estate so if you take it to the logical next step if you

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are a real estate entrepreneur actually the next logical step is to do what meta planet or what

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strategy has been doing if you are a developer that is in real estate because you like the

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build environment you don't see yourself as a speculator you see yourself as a builder

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integrate Bitcoin into the real estate business.

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But I think real estate investing, as we knew,

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doesn't make sense anymore under Bitcoin standard.

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Interesting.

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So, yeah, I'm curious how you see it playing out

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in the next couple of years in the short term,

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because obviously we're seeing it start to get devalued.

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But I saw an interesting stat here that home prices need to fall about 40%

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or incomes need to rise 60% just to return to the housing market 2019 levels.

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That's absolutely crazy just how inflated the housing market has become in six short years.

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Obviously, we know what happened with the massive amounts of money printing.

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But do you see that happening?

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Are we going to have worse than a 2008 housing crash?

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It's a good question.

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I think about it a lot.

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But I'm not worried because I've kind of I've been selling we've been selling assets and

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we've been also putting cash flow into Bitcoin.

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So we've been growing our strategy in order to be able to kind of withstand any pressures.

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But to be honest with you, I think there's a possibility that the housing market won't

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reach the levels it reached between 2019 and 2021 for at least the next five to 10 years.

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Right.

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And why?

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Why am I saying that?

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I'm saying that because there's a historical example, which is Japan.

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So in the 1980s, the interest rates in Japan were extremely low,

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and companies, individuals, and institutions funded most of the available capital into real estate.

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Then in the 90s, there was a crisis, and real estate has not, in most areas in Japan,

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reached the price levels it has reached 20 years ago.

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And the reason for that is though the demographic change as well.

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So if we think about it, the demand for real estate is actually artificial because in the developed nations, due to various factors, one of the factors being it's very expensive now to have a family because inflation has caused the cost of living to go up.

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So young people are not able to support a family.

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And also we have automation and there's less demand for human labor.

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so in japan due to the japanese being very rigid on their culture they're very much opposed to

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immigration so there was very little immigration in japan meaning less people less demand for real

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estate higher interest rates so the housing bubble popped it never picked back up so if we look into

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the us for example i think something similar is happening now as well the economy has understood

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that productivity is not tied to human labor.

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Productivity is tied to AI, automation, digital scarcities,

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or different factors that are playing in.

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So in the past, within the realm of the fiat system,

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real estate worked as this better of the global financial system.

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With increasing real estate prices,

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people were able to increase the credit system as well, right?

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Because people lend, an institution lend against real estate.

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But now we reach the point where it's not a good form of collateral because its price

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is artificially pumped up.

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And culturally, we understand that human labor does not bring productivity.

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So what brings productivity is AI.

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And AI can't work with a physical store of value.

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There's just a mismatch.

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And Bitcoin fits into that mismatch and fulfills that role.

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So asking and answering that question is that, yes, I believe that it will take at least a

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decade for real estate prices to be where they are between 2019 and 2021.

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But at the same time, Bitcoin is going to increase in purchasing power, right?

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So maybe in five to 10 years, if you account for your real estate portfolio in fiat currency,

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it will be worth the same amount of fiat currency.

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but at that point of time the fiat currency will be worth less and Bitcoin will be worth more so

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once you start accounting for real estate in Bitcoin you see how fast it is losing its monetary

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premium so I personally don't think about real estate as a financial asset at all I think about

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it as a business and the business is simple you provide housing to the market you receive cash

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return it's a simple business strategy but the store value function that sit or still set in

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real estate until 2009 now sits in bitcoin so i don't really think that real estate will see the

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same returns that we saw over the past let's say 12 to 13 years interesting so as we we've seen it

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Because so with this, is it basically all going to shift into Bitcoin?

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Because, you know, the fiat currency, the underlying fiat currency is still going to be devalued.

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And the interesting thing about real estate in the U.S. is there is still a lot of tax benefits, like all the millionaires, billionaires, even though a lot of high net worth are starting to move into the Bitcoin space.

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A lot of them use real estate you know to avoid paying taxes or at least you know those strategies to avoid paying taxes Do you see that as like something that is changing as well

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By the way, I believe that is one of the reasons why real estate is still a good business model because of the tax write-offs, the tax efficiency, and also the leverage that works in your favor.

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So, as a business model, there's still relevance in real estate.

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But I think the speculation that has happened in real estate will move over into Bitcoin because Bitcoin is the ultimate speculative market.

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So I think also the tax advantages that exist for real estate, I can very much imagine that they will also come into existence for Bitcoin.

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Because if you are a government that has at least the best interest for your people, you want them to hold an asset that is not negatively affected by you inflating the currency in order to keep the government going.

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And judging by the statements of the current administration in the US, I do believe that some of the tax advantages that currently exist around real estate will also be rolled out for Bitcoin.

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And if you really think about it, Bitcoin is money.

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And there's no reason to tax money because if you tax money, you can't use it as a medium of exchange.

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So as Bitcoin is being adopted as a store of value and eventually as a medium of exchange,

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I think that freedom-orientated jurisdictions will ban or will lift all taxes on Bitcoin going forward.

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I can't say if the U.S. will do it for sure.

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It depends on the next administration.

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administration. But if the next administration is as Bitcoin friendly as the current one, I can see

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that within the next six years, there will be certain tax advantages existing around Bitcoin,

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similarly to those existing around real estate. And then it's going to get really interesting.

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Yeah. So, I mean, that is a very interesting point. I mean, I think once that happens,

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that's all bets are off. The other interesting thing, you brought it up a little bit earlier

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about Bitcoin used as collateral, not needing to sell your Bitcoin. It seems like a lot of people

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are starting to... What if I told you you never had to sell your Bitcoin? Instead, you can borrow

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proven you know bitcoin used as collateral uh you know not needing to sell your bitcoin it seems like

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a lot of people are starting to get loans against them you know a lot of products are starting to

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come against them obviously in the i mean at least in the united states that's one of the huge

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benefits of owning a house as well is that the bank will essentially throw money at you for very

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cheap interest rates just so you know you can can borrow against it now with that right do you see

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these products in Bitcoin, obviously, they're pretty early in their infancy. But do you see

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that kind of getting to the point where maybe we're starting to get, you know, maybe as low

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as like a 3% interest rate on collateral of our while using Bitcoin as collateral?

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Yeah, I do think I just yesterday, actually, I looked at the average interest rate on Bitcoin

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based based loans and it was between 12 to 16 depending on the jurisdiction and i think that

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is tied to the fact that the people that lend money to institutions that give out bitcoin back

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credits there's little experience most of the companies that offer bitcoin backed lending are

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pretty new so there's a high risk attached to it but over time if you think about it

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if bitcoin is held in the multi-sig the risk is pretty low i guess the term risk-free rate is

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misleading because nothing is truly risk-free but holding bitcoin in self-custody definitely has the

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lowest risk component to it and then if you hold it into a multi-signature custodial solution

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the risk is also considerably low so i think that interest rates on bitcoin-backed loans they will

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come down as competition increases and as the the understanding of the risk associated with with

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bitcoin also gets bigger and then i can see interest rates going down to four or five or six

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percent because there are some um companies in switzerland that are offering bitcoin best loans

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around 4.5 already today because in switzerland the knowledge within the banking system

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on bitcoin is actually extremely good i think it's one of the jurisdictions in the in the world

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that has understood that due to the oversight by the eu that makes it very difficult to still

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store your wealth privately in switzerland a lot of swiss companies have now become bitcoin

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companies because they see the pseudonymity of bitcoin as a way to preserve the privacy that

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they were able to give their customers that use switzerland as a as a as a country to facilitate

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both trade but also store store wealth and interest rates there on bitcoin backed loans in swiss

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francs are around 4.5 to 4.7 already today and i think that will spread and then we have interest

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rates on bitcoin backed loans converging with the existing interest rates but i think interest

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rates over time have to move up because interest rates today are artificially set by central

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planners but actually interest rates should emerge in the free market and it's the price of money

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if money is abundant interest rates go down if money is scarce interest rates go up that is

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because the opportunity cost that goes up as well bitcoin is a good example if i lend you my bitcoin

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i will demand an interest rate that compensates for the yearly purchasing power of bitcoin which

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is around 50 at the moment over time that will go down to like 10 15 i assume and then the interest

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rates on bitcoin bank credit should converge with the interest rates set by the central planner

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the year-on-year increase of bitcoin's purchasing power and then somewhere in the middle

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i think we have a convergence of interest rates and over time

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they will be set by the market and not by central banks

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yeah and i think that that is uh that's going to be really interesting then to see because i mean

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hey if you're you're offering like four percent now i think uh more people will be flocking to

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that just as this development is starting to to go forward but i mean i guess with this loan to

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value right we still have a lot of volatility in bitcoin so the the question i have with all of

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this is do you think like we're still going to have those you know 40 50 60 drawdowns that would

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essentially throw a wrench in a lot of this right now or as this asset class gets bigger uh you know

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do you think the volatility is going to go down so i think volatility is coming down a bit but it

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will remain an important component of bitcoin and the network and its ability to build resilience

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Because if you think about it, let's assume there would be less volatility in Bitcoin.

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People would not be penalized for taking on excessive leverage, for example.

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And the system, every couple of months, every couple of years, needs to wash out the weekends.

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It needs to wash out the leverage in order for the network to build resilience and in order for the price to find a higher low.

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because the way that bitcoin works is as the price moves up people usually

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act and leverage themselves with high risk right you can see it at the moment actually

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the bitcoin price has already washed out significant leverage in the past couple of weeks

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and i think a lot of people were anticipating a run-up to like four or five hundred thousand dollars

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and I personally don't see that so we could very well have a drop of 40 to 60 percent next year

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that wouldn't surprise me at all so I've been following the Bitcoin price for over a decade

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and it has done the same thing every single time so the first time I've actively watched the Bitcoin

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price was in 2013 I was at university at the time I was studying financial economics and I wanted to

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who dived into the world of Bitcoin, so to say.

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And it was the summer holiday.

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I was sitting in my parents' apartment

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and I was watching the news.

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And Bitcoin at the time hit $1,000.

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And the reason was that people from China

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used Bitcoin to circumvent government control.

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There was a banking crisis in Cyprus.

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So a lot of Chinese and Russians

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that parked their money in Europe

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were using Bitcoin to get their money out.

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And then Bitcoin crashed down to, I think, $150

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or something like that and ever since bitcoin has been going to highs and to lows and it's this

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movement of the price where it shoots up significantly which leads to more people

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funding money into the network and then that's very important the hash rate goes up because the

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security of bitcoin is tied to the hash rate the higher the hash rate the more secure the network

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the more people are willing to put their money into bitcoin because a good form of money is a

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good store value. So the hash rate of Bitcoin usually goes up in the bear market when conviction

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is high. Because in the bear market, the people that stay, they have high conviction. And the

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network grows with people that have high conviction. People that just want to trade Bitcoin, they

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don't help the network. If you don't run a node, if you don't mind, if you don't have a high

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conviction, you don't actually help the network. And I think that resilience is built in the bear

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markets so i personally i expect the bear market the way that i manage uh bitcoin backed loans is

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all always to be able to withstand 80 drawdowns because then you can just run the business without

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thinking about when to buy bitcoin and how to hold it and things like that so i think that brings in

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a certain mindset that you have to be able to withstand 80 drawdowns but then you can just

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keep on buying keep on going you don't have to think about it okay that's interesting so uh yeah

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i mean i i definitely think that there's you know the the bigger uh players are starting to come in

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and the adoption is coming but uh you know with uh i guess this development right i mean we're

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seeing governments we're seeing uh companies starting to put bitcoin on the balance sheet

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You know, it's just the assets essentially changing. It's maturing over this last 12 months, to say the very least. And, you know, how do you think it starts to ingrain with real estate? Do you think it's just going to keep stripping away? Or is there something where, you know, there's going to be some sort of integration, maybe loans on top of using collateral with real estate, you know, as a combination?

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Is there some way that Bitcoin combines with real estate or is it just going to swallow up this market?

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I like that question because I do think they'll merge, they converge.

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This bull run, I think everybody should focus on getting their Bitcoin in self-custody and off exchanges.

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We all saw what happened last time with the huge blow-offs.

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We had Celsius, FTX, all of the big dogs blowing up.

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Well, this time, everybody's being smart and holding their Bitcoin in self-custody.

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This is why I'm going with the number one hardware wallet in the game.

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00:26:53,057 --> 00:26:53,857
That's Trezor.

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00:27:07,117 --> 00:27:10,757
They've been in the game the longest of any hardware wallets out there.

291
00:27:11,017 --> 00:27:16,037
So that's why I've partnered with them, making it the easiest for you to get your Bitcoin off exchanges

292
00:27:16,037 --> 00:27:19,077
and not have to worry about any counterparty risk.

293
00:27:19,097 --> 00:27:23,597
So do it today. Go to the affiliate link below. Use promo code GreenCandle5.

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Enough from me. Let's get back to the show.

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I like that question because I do think they'll merge. They converge.

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First of all, Bitcoin is a good store value if you're on real estate,

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meaning you can use it to build maintenance reserves. That's very obvious.

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And then if you think about real estate, it's a capital structure

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where you have different people, the bank that lends the money.

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you have to develop her maybe you have an investor you have an architect and you have a tenant

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so there is a capital structure and bitcoin can be integrated into that capital structure

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and i think for example the products that are emerging in the us right now like for example

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horizon that allow you to refinance the illiquid equity and capital that sits in your property

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and then funnel that into bitcoin i think that's very interesting like for homeowners

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If you own large real estate portfolios, I think refinancing, because you talked about

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the tax advantages that exist around real estate and the 1031 exchange where you, so

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in real estate, what you can do, you can sell a property and then you can take the profits

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and then you can reinvest them in a new property without paying taxes right You can also refinance the property without paying taxes to buy another property you can refinance not a property to buy bitcoin so

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that's also a very obvious way to to drain the liquidity capital that sits in real estate into

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bitcoin and then i think generally speaking the dual collateralization of bitcoin and real estate

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is very very very important in order to build resilience in the global financial system because

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because Bitcoin is pristine collateral for lending and it's going to be used as such.

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And real estate is okay collateral for lending because it's true, it's relatively scarce

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and it does have cash flow, but it's not good money.

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So the reason for these extreme boom and bust cycles that we experienced,

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especially since I'd say the 80s, is because in the 80s, a lot of the pension funds,

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both in Europe and North America and in Asia they started to go into real estate because the returns

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on real estate with leverage were higher than bonds and that caused a lot of misallocation of

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capital because real estate is a good a consumer good with utility value right and now that it

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became money and that it became collateral means that the global financial system is built on sand

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it's very very shaky so yes bitcoin can kind of replace real estate but in order for to do that

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i think it needs to be combined with real estate and dual collateralized meaning if you construct

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real estate or if you're a bank that finances real estate development i personally if i would be the

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bank what i would do is let's say a real estate developer needs 10 million dollars to construct

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the property i would give 11 million dollars as a loan so you can take the 10 million dollars 91

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of the loan you construct the property you take the additional million dollars and you hold it

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in the same company that holds the real estate project and while you do that while you construct

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a property which usually takes three to five years bitcoin will have gone through a halving cycle

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meaning that the treasury has already grown significantly in value meaning that the financial

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position that you are in no matter what the interest rates go down or go up it doesn't

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matter because the bitcoin they go up over time right and then you also have a collateral base

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to lend against to then maintain your property i personally actually think that it's not even worth

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doing real estate without including bitcoin it also acts as an insurance let's assume you give

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money to a real estate developer and they default on the loan, you have a problem.

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But if you also finance Bitcoin and you hold the Bitcoin and a multi-custodial setup,

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you have access to the Bitcoin.

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So it's financing Bitcoin in line with the real estate development

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is also insurance for the financing bank.

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Yeah.

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And so, I mean, how do you think that this changes not only just the lending process,

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But, you know, seeing, you know, you mentioned changing the taxes, all of these capital structures.

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And, you know, there's a lot of job industry going with real estate.

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I mean, it's essentially, is that just going to flip the entire, you know, real estate industry on the head where, you know, instead of fundamentally just being priced and, you know, constantly kind of trucking up, real estate is going to be going down.

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uh especially priced in bitcoin and thus like there's just going to be less demand less movement

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uh and you know there's not going to be as much development and is there just going to be a change

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in that perspective i think so because i can judge the industry by my own experience and we have

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developed around 600 apartments since 2016. and we have another 370 apartments in development right

348
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now so we have a like considerable size and at the moment there's no point for us to employ new

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employees for because we were thinking how do we want to grow right how do we want to grow the

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business do we want to grow the business by employing new people or do we want to grow the

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business by integrating bitcoin and then benefiting by bitcoin being absolutely scarce and we've

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decided we want to grow with bitcoin because the risk of no employing new people with higher

353
00:33:02,274 --> 00:33:07,554
interest rates is very very high and there's no point to employ people because you can also use

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ai now so a lot of the contracts in the past we had employees just for rent contracts and now

355
00:33:14,114 --> 00:33:20,274
we do with chat gpt why it's wild right so the effect on an r and ai on the real estate industry

356
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i think is quite big because think about asset management so managing real estate takes time

357
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and employees but now you can both you can use ai and then you can use bitcoin to store capital

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so you don't need to grow the business by employing new people and you don't need to grow the business

359
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by developing and leveraging your business excessively so i think to be successful in

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real estate now means to focus and it kind of it's the same thing what sailor is saying you need to

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really be very very focused i think in real estate to be successful in the past you had to be at the

362
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right time right you had to be able to to work smart but now you need to be extremely smart you

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need to be extremely focused and i believe that the whole industry that exists around real estate

364
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including brokers for example i think it won't go away but it will definitely become less important

365
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and um that also has to do with look at all the treasury companies right a lot of the people that

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work in treasury companies worked in real estate before i know numerous people i know more than 20

367
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people that work in real estate that are now in the bitcoin space and they work in the bitcoin

368
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treasury space because the speculation that they knew now develops on bitcoin but bitcoin is

369
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absolutely scarce meaning that the money that can be made in bitcoin is is more than the money that

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00:34:48,194 --> 00:34:53,314
can be made in real estate. So naturally, this bull run, I'm looking for ways to stack Bitcoin

371
00:34:53,314 --> 00:34:59,474
in my sleep and mining has always caught my eye. I've partnered with the guys over at Simple Mining

372
00:34:59,474 --> 00:35:05,074
to help you do just that. I don't recommend anything that I don't use personally. So I've

373
00:35:05,074 --> 00:35:10,354
got a machine up and running with them right this second. And they've even opened the facility up

374
00:35:10,354 --> 00:35:17,394
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375
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376
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377
00:35:28,434 --> 00:35:35,394
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378
00:35:35,394 --> 00:35:41,314
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379
00:35:41,314 --> 00:35:46,914
enough from me let's get back to the show absolutely scarce meaning that the money that

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00:35:46,914 --> 00:35:52,514
can be made in bitcoin is is more than the money that can be made in real estate so naturally over

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00:35:52,514 --> 00:35:58,834
time i think people will kind of move from real estate into bitcoin and we can already see it at

382
00:35:58,834 --> 00:36:04,274
the moment i think brokers are moving into bitcoin because at the moment there's very little sell of

383
00:36:04,274 --> 00:36:09,954
real estate there's little money to be made in being a real estate broker then agents of course

384
00:36:09,954 --> 00:36:14,834
which is very very similar sometimes you have differences between brokers and agents but they

385
00:36:14,834 --> 00:36:19,634
are both usually making money when the interest rates are low when there's a lot of selling and

386
00:36:19,634 --> 00:36:25,394
buying on the market and in bitcoin you don't make money by buying and selling you make money by

387
00:36:25,394 --> 00:36:31,554
holding and you make money by issuing stocks and if you if you own bitcoin you can hold on to it

388
00:36:31,554 --> 00:36:37,554
and if your company you can issue stocks constantly and the money that's being made on the issuance

389
00:36:37,554 --> 00:36:43,074
of stocks against bitcoin outperforms the money that is to be made by selling and buying real

390
00:36:43,074 --> 00:36:48,914
estate so i think brokers and agents those are the kind of like that's the niche that's being hit the

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hardest and then i think banks as well so if your bank that financed real estate development now

392
00:36:55,314 --> 00:37:00,914
maybe you finance bitcoin miners because bitcoin mining is also similar to real estate because

393
00:37:01,634 --> 00:37:06,594
mining and bitcoin is a is a cash flow it's a cash flow based business and the cash flow that

394
00:37:06,594 --> 00:37:12,434
you can generate is much higher per square meter than with real estate so if you go square meter by

395
00:37:12,434 --> 00:37:20,514
square meter you have a residential unit and you have a mining site you make more money with mining

396
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so mining is more interesting than residential and commercial properties because think about

397
00:37:25,554 --> 00:37:31,314
commercial properties they're being hit the hardest i recently looked at the year-on-year increase

398
00:37:31,314 --> 00:37:41,234
in the price of commercial property since 1971 and from 1971 till 2024 the increase in the money

399
00:37:41,234 --> 00:37:49,554
supply m2 was around 6.7 percent year on year and commercial real estate grew around 4.4 percent so

400
00:37:49,554 --> 00:37:55,714
it kind of followed the trend line of the money supply but what happened is that since 2024

401
00:37:55,714 --> 00:38:02,914
the commercial real estate came down in price so much that now the average increase is not 4.4

402
00:38:02,914 --> 00:38:10,514
percent it's four percent so in in a year and a half the average over 50 years went down 10 percent

403
00:38:11,154 --> 00:38:17,074
because e-commerce bitcoin automation large language models it's it's it's affecting the

404
00:38:17,074 --> 00:38:21,874
way that we shop it's affecting the way that we consume and commercial properties are hitting are

405
00:38:21,874 --> 00:38:27,714
being hit the hardest and i have some uh some friends that were in commercial real estate in

406
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the us and they were developing shopping centers and they were very very big and now they're on the

407
00:38:33,234 --> 00:38:39,154
brink of uh going bust so i think commercial real estate is even more in danger than residential

408
00:38:39,154 --> 00:38:46,034
real estate yeah and so i i think that's also like a combination of just uh you know obviously

409
00:38:46,034 --> 00:38:51,634
we saw that everybody shut down and you know the the remote work a lot of companies are going

410
00:38:51,634 --> 00:38:55,474
hybrid now they're actually pulling them back into the office so do you think that there's not

411
00:38:55,474 --> 00:39:01,494
going to be any sort of i guess flip back towards that with commercial real estate where you know

412
00:39:01,494 --> 00:39:07,514
people are going to be looking for office buildings or try to revert back to to the way that things

413
00:39:07,514 --> 00:39:14,134
were i personally don't think so so we ditched all the commercial units what i think is interesting

414
00:39:14,134 --> 00:39:19,694
if you have residential units if you have commercial units in the first floor supermarkets

415
00:39:19,694 --> 00:39:24,734
doctors and stuff like that that pulls in uh residents so i think mixing commercial and

416
00:39:24,734 --> 00:39:29,774
residential real estate that's very interesting but commercial real estate in a classical sense

417
00:39:29,774 --> 00:39:36,014
i think is less important and i don't think that will revert back to the office culture that we had

418
00:39:36,014 --> 00:39:42,014
in the past because people can work from home people don't need to commute as much anymore

419
00:39:42,014 --> 00:39:46,174
that also means parking lots are not as interesting so i think that parking lots will be

420
00:39:46,814 --> 00:39:51,774
also hit hard in the next 20 years shopping centers will are being hit very hard

421
00:39:52,734 --> 00:39:58,494
office space is being hit very hard shared office space you know models like we work and you had

422
00:39:58,494 --> 00:40:05,214
other shared office companies they don't work anymore so the industry is changing significantly

423
00:40:05,214 --> 00:40:11,214
and i think the aspect of speculation that has shaped the industry and it has been really been

424
00:40:11,214 --> 00:40:17,534
the driving force that is moving over to bitcoin very rapidly like very quickly i think also if i

425
00:40:17,534 --> 00:40:25,214
ask you would you buy a house or would you buy bitcoin yeah i mean i was just like throughout

426
00:40:25,214 --> 00:40:29,774
this entire conversation i've been thinking about it because uh you know i'm sitting in

427
00:40:29,774 --> 00:40:36,894
in a rental property right now that i own and i have one more uh here in tampa where i live uh but

428
00:40:36,894 --> 00:40:43,334
But thinking about it, it's like, all right, maybe I use these home equity lines of credits

429
00:40:43,334 --> 00:40:50,354
or whatever to purchase something like an STRC, like a strike from MSTR, cash flow,

430
00:40:50,474 --> 00:40:55,394
exactly what I'm kind of looking for with real estate and just move it towards there

431
00:40:55,394 --> 00:40:59,734
opposed to essentially just buying another rental property.

432
00:40:59,734 --> 00:41:02,594
Because I mean, one, I have Airbnbs.

433
00:41:03,174 --> 00:41:05,674
Airbnbs have been down because travel's down.

434
00:41:05,674 --> 00:41:11,494
and two, housing prices are starting to level out and go down.

435
00:41:11,614 --> 00:41:14,334
I don't know if we're going to have a 2008 type of crash.

436
00:41:15,454 --> 00:41:19,094
I think maybe it's going to be different for each area,

437
00:41:19,334 --> 00:41:24,674
but it's unique because we've seen real estate prices just go up like crazy

438
00:41:24,674 --> 00:41:26,914
in certain markets in the United States,

439
00:41:27,294 --> 00:41:29,514
especially in the southern half of the United States,

440
00:41:29,514 --> 00:41:31,814
like Austin where I grew up, Nashville,

441
00:41:32,014 --> 00:41:34,634
some of the places where it's a little bit more tax-friendly,

442
00:41:34,634 --> 00:41:39,574
a little bit warmer. But now everybody's starting to have to go back into the office.

443
00:41:40,254 --> 00:41:45,234
And now they're like, all right, I can't go live in a cabin in the woods. I need to go live in the

444
00:41:45,234 --> 00:41:51,194
city. But then interest rates are higher. So there's just not a lot of transactions going.

445
00:41:51,434 --> 00:41:58,614
There's a lot of people just kind of sitting and waiting. And so it seems like the flight

446
00:41:58,614 --> 00:42:04,534
and the smart investors are sitting on the sidelines. And everything I see from the real

447
00:42:04,534 --> 00:42:16,674
estate market is. We haven't seen this little demand since 2008. All of these things are all

448
00:42:16,674 --> 00:42:23,794
before the crash. This is why I think that we're essentially ripe for a crash because the

449
00:42:23,794 --> 00:42:30,474
affordability of houses is just terrible. But I just see them printing money and starting to

450
00:42:30,474 --> 00:42:37,074
lower interest rates. I mean, Trump talked about wanting to give people $1,000 to $2,000 STEMI

451
00:42:37,074 --> 00:42:43,694
checks again. So if we do that, I don't see how real estate won't go up again. But I also see it

452
00:42:43,694 --> 00:42:50,694
on the flip side, all right? Like $2,000 won't buy you a house. So I don't know. That's why I

453
00:42:50,694 --> 00:43:01,831
think we in a unique environment where I think we kind of in an asset bubble but real estate it that one asset that not going to bubble up Why would you ever hold generational wealth on a piece of paper

454
00:43:02,231 --> 00:43:07,431
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455
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462
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All right.

463
00:43:51,652 --> 00:43:52,431
Enough from me.

464
00:43:52,731 --> 00:43:53,431
Back to the show.

465
00:43:53,951 --> 00:43:56,892
But real estate's that one asset that's not going to bubble up.

466
00:43:58,831 --> 00:43:59,311
Yeah.

467
00:43:59,532 --> 00:43:59,711
Yeah.

468
00:43:59,791 --> 00:44:01,271
I mean, it's difficult to say.

469
00:44:01,412 --> 00:44:02,271
I agree with you.

470
00:44:02,271 --> 00:44:06,552
So let's say they push interest rates back down to 3%, 2.5%.

471
00:44:06,552 --> 00:44:10,492
You'll definitely have more demand for real estate, more liquidity moving in.

472
00:44:10,492 --> 00:44:16,751
But then if you think about it from the lens of a Bitcoiner, when you hold Bitcoin, even

473
00:44:16,751 --> 00:44:21,512
if real estate goes up in fiat terms, it's still going down in Bitcoin terms.

474
00:44:21,632 --> 00:44:27,392
And I think that mindset will penetrate the global consciousness, so to say.

475
00:44:27,872 --> 00:44:32,892
And the way that it is happening is through Bitcoin-based credit products, I think.

476
00:44:33,331 --> 00:44:37,831
Because people will start to see, okay, here are products that have a higher return than

477
00:44:37,831 --> 00:44:43,132
the average bond, government bonds and corporate bonds, or the average real estate deal, they'll

478
00:44:43,132 --> 00:44:47,672
buy these products. And then over time, they'll understand, oh, you can also buy Bitcoin. So maybe

479
00:44:47,672 --> 00:44:53,592
people start buying Bitcoin. And then over the next 10 to 15 years, demand will really come down

480
00:44:53,592 --> 00:44:59,872
for real estate. Yeah, so I think that the demand is already starting to come down already. So I

481
00:44:59,872 --> 00:45:04,691
don't know if it's that 10 to 15 years timeline. Do you think that there's any way that that gets

482
00:45:04,691 --> 00:45:17,012
accelerated war war okay yeah well we're already starting to see that so i mean is that is do you

483
00:45:17,012 --> 00:45:23,392
think that's going to be the catalyst i believe so because here in europe will we are feeling it

484
00:45:23,392 --> 00:45:30,592
more than i think you guys so i see like all sorts of refugees from different countries you know

485
00:45:30,592 --> 00:45:37,152
actually three years ago was in berlin i was at a train station i kind of got a flashback i was

486
00:45:37,152 --> 00:45:42,352
almost felt like the beginning of the second world war when we went through inflation as well i saw

487
00:45:42,352 --> 00:45:49,311
that you know grandmas walking with like someone had like a chicken and in her hand she was coming

488
00:45:49,311 --> 00:45:54,831
out of a train leaving the central station in berlin with a chicken in her hand and uh and i

489
00:45:54,831 --> 00:45:59,471
think all her clothes and i was like wow she literally arrived from a war zone and her house

490
00:45:59,471 --> 00:46:04,512
definitely doesn't exist anymore and then i had conversations with a few you know people in their

491
00:46:04,512 --> 00:46:10,671
early 20s and some of them told me look i put my money into bitcoin and i just left and i was able

492
00:46:10,671 --> 00:46:16,352
to take my wealth with me others told me my real estate is gone and that definitely had an effect

493
00:46:16,352 --> 00:46:23,552
on me and i can see it having an effect on people like throughout my uh i guess my social circle so

494
00:46:23,552 --> 00:46:28,112
to say and there's no same for the middle east i've talked with some people from the middle east

495
00:46:29,072 --> 00:46:35,791
some places there your house definitely is gone by this point right so i think the cognitive ability

496
00:46:35,791 --> 00:46:41,711
to kind of appreciate bitcoin has to do with increasing pain and the pain unfortunately is

497
00:46:41,711 --> 00:46:48,992
being felt through inflation and destruction and bitcoin as a like digital store value is not

498
00:46:48,992 --> 00:46:56,592
negatively affected by chaos actually benefits by chaos because it's made for chaos so yeah going

499
00:46:56,592 --> 00:47:04,191
forward with this to tie it back with real estate then uh you know as uh this kind of chaos unfolds

500
00:47:04,191 --> 00:47:09,852
do you ever see uh like real estate being as traditional as it is or do you think that

501
00:47:09,852 --> 00:47:15,532
you know people are going to you know are we going to move to this like own nothing and be happy even

502
00:47:15,532 --> 00:47:20,231
with real estate crashing because there's just so many better you know i mean i don't know why you

503
00:47:20,231 --> 00:47:26,152
would buy a house at this point uh is that going to be the future where people just don't own homes

504
00:47:26,152 --> 00:47:31,251
and, you know, maybe the state has to buy them up or kind of move in that direction,

505
00:47:31,372 --> 00:47:32,451
even with the crash?

506
00:47:32,532 --> 00:47:35,432
Because why would you do that when you could just buy Bitcoin?

507
00:47:36,152 --> 00:47:38,152
I think it's already happening.

508
00:47:38,392 --> 00:47:44,771
So I can tell you that in the large metropolitan areas, including New York,

509
00:47:45,532 --> 00:47:50,572
and take cities in Europe like Berlin and London,

510
00:47:51,532 --> 00:47:57,052
a sufficient amount of the rental space is being subsidized by the government so i'm going to give

511
00:47:57,052 --> 00:48:04,331
you a statistic now on hamburg which is a city in northern germany most of the new developments have

512
00:48:04,331 --> 00:48:10,652
a third subsidized by the government so a third of the apartments are being subsidized by the

513
00:48:10,652 --> 00:48:16,171
government and the government is doing it for two reasons number one people can't afford rent anymore

514
00:48:16,171 --> 00:48:21,691
and number two they want to inflate housing because it's the collateral of the central

515
00:48:21,691 --> 00:48:28,731
banking system so it's actually kind of a scheme so i think it's going to increase over time and

516
00:48:28,731 --> 00:48:35,691
i could very well imagine that going forward between 20 to 50 depending on the on the country

517
00:48:36,492 --> 00:48:42,652
of the rental space will be subsidized by the government both in construction and the rental

518
00:48:42,652 --> 00:48:48,572
money as well which basically means that a lot of money will have to go into circulation

519
00:48:50,892 --> 00:48:56,572
so then the governments and and are trying to basically keep the ponzi going

520
00:48:57,291 --> 00:49:01,612
in a way i mean it sounds kind of harsh right usually when i talk with real estate entrepreneurs

521
00:49:01,612 --> 00:49:06,012
they'll ask me leon you talk like you hate real estate i thought you're like a real estate developer

522
00:49:06,012 --> 00:49:12,171
i am so take this with a grain of salt i have i grew up on construction sites i still work in

523
00:49:12,171 --> 00:49:17,691
real estate development, but you have to think by first principles. And getting into Bitcoin just

524
00:49:17,691 --> 00:49:21,691
opened up this world to me where I kind of understood why real estate has become such an

525
00:49:22,331 --> 00:49:25,532
important asset class. And it's basically what you said.

526
00:49:25,532 --> 00:49:34,731
Yeah, the Ponzi is going to live on. So then, I don't know if you've answered the question fully,

527
00:49:34,731 --> 00:49:39,932
are we going to get worse than the 2008 crash or is it just going to be a slow, gradual decline?

528
00:49:40,811 --> 00:49:46,492
i think so i'm very reluctant to really give like i don't really have a thesis going forward it's

529
00:49:46,492 --> 00:49:51,771
very difficult i'm always wrong right but i do i do believe we won't have a crisis like in oa

530
00:49:51,771 --> 00:49:57,532
because the speculation that happened in housing in oa is now moving over into bitcoin and if

531
00:49:57,532 --> 00:50:04,092
speculation is happening on bitcoin there's no negative effect on the housing market so if you

532
00:50:04,092 --> 00:50:09,372
speculate on real estate there's a negative effect because the cost of housing goes up and it has to

533
00:50:09,372 --> 00:50:14,271
to come down at some point. If you speculate on Bitcoin, you can burn yourself, you can lose money,

534
00:50:14,612 --> 00:50:19,612
but there's no negative effect on the housing market. So Bitcoin is almost like an insurance

535
00:50:19,612 --> 00:50:24,831
against a crash in the housing market because it absorbs the speculation over time and that

536
00:50:24,831 --> 00:50:32,152
creates less risk in housing, meaning that the crash will be slow, but a short death over time.

537
00:50:33,171 --> 00:50:37,211
Now, where do you think this Bitcoin market is going? I know we've talked a lot about

538
00:50:37,211 --> 00:50:42,592
real estate but obviously you're a bitcoiner and you've seen the light and uh you know you see that

539
00:50:42,592 --> 00:50:47,791
the things crash and obviously things are moving very fast in the bitcoin space so things can change

540
00:50:47,791 --> 00:50:53,632
and who knows by the time we put out this episode it could be you know drastically different but uh

541
00:50:53,632 --> 00:50:58,791
you know where do you see this uh this cycle going do you think we still have the four-year cycles

542
00:50:58,791 --> 00:51:04,872
and uh yeah where are you where are we going from here yeah personally i'm kind of like an observer

543
00:51:04,872 --> 00:51:10,231
when it comes to the markets i don't try to plan too much and it feels pretty much like every bull

544
00:51:10,231 --> 00:51:15,432
market felt to me price is kind of in line with the power law i pay attention to the power law

545
00:51:16,152 --> 00:51:21,831
um and price is kind of in in line with the power law i expect the breakout towards the end of the

546
00:51:21,831 --> 00:51:27,592
year and i expect the bear market following i don't know what's when it's going to happen but

547
00:51:27,592 --> 00:51:33,912
i think nothing changed to be honest uh so you don't you think this is like you're not uh subscribed

548
00:51:33,912 --> 00:51:42,392
to the theory that this cycle is different no no okay interesting so do you well i mean the the

549
00:51:42,392 --> 00:51:47,671
question i have then is because we've seen the volatility go down a little bit so do you think

550
00:51:47,671 --> 00:51:52,072
like these are just going to be the diminishing returns and that's going to be like the flight

551
00:51:52,072 --> 00:51:58,552
to safety so to speak is going to be more into bitcoin i think so i think we have uh we have

552
00:51:58,552 --> 00:52:04,311
less volatility as the market cap of bitcoin is increasing volatility is going down but i still

553
00:52:04,311 --> 00:52:10,072
believe that volatility will stay significant i do believe a correction is important to build the

554
00:52:10,072 --> 00:52:14,872
resilience that the network needs we need more hash rate we need diamond hands we don't need

555
00:52:15,592 --> 00:52:23,831
you know tourists so i kind of actually you know i think we'll have a very severe bear market

556
00:52:23,831 --> 00:52:29,912
and i think people will be shocked by how many bitcoin treasury companies will trade at maybe 0.3

557
00:52:29,912 --> 00:52:37,992
to 0.5 m now wow okay why do you think that look they're trading below some of them are trading

558
00:52:37,992 --> 00:52:45,831
below one m left now and we are in a bull market so imagine the bear market is sitting strategy was

559
00:52:45,831 --> 00:52:51,032
trading at ten dollars in the last bear market right so very few people in a bear market are

560
00:52:51,032 --> 00:52:57,271
actually able to see the trade that a company like meta planet or a company like strategy is actually

561
00:52:57,271 --> 00:53:03,992
doing so i think that the the next bear market will shock everyone and it will be so severe

562
00:53:03,992 --> 00:53:11,032
because everybody is expecting the four-year cycle to stop and bitcoin is usually always

563
00:53:11,671 --> 00:53:18,471
penalizing like this type of thinking because we as humans we we forget even inflation why does

564
00:53:18,471 --> 00:53:24,632
inflation exists i mean the chinese inflated their paper currency already hundreds of years ago

565
00:53:25,352 --> 00:53:30,791
and the english did it the italians did it the french did it the germans did but we are doing

566
00:53:30,791 --> 00:53:36,231
it again and again and again and the same as with the four-year cycle every every cycle people are

567
00:53:36,231 --> 00:53:40,952
like oh this cycle is different and they always forget that it's going to be the same and i have

568
00:53:40,952 --> 00:53:47,512
the thesis that nothing will change and nothing has changed except volatility coming down a little

569
00:53:47,512 --> 00:53:54,151
bit of course due to the increasing market cap so then all right so outside of that what do you

570
00:53:54,151 --> 00:53:59,912
think are some of the biggest risks here going forward with the the emergence of bitcoin and

571
00:53:59,912 --> 00:54:05,191
real estate uh just in general because you think that the cycles i mean it's going to be the same

572
00:54:05,191 --> 00:54:11,191
but you know we've had a lot of these regulatory hurdles kind of come off uh in the bitcoin space

573
00:54:11,191 --> 00:54:17,352
at least over in the united states uh but you know globally it seems like there's a lot of craziness

574
00:54:17,352 --> 00:54:23,751
going on especially where you're at you know in the eu the uk the digital ids all of this craziness

575
00:54:23,751 --> 00:54:30,632
going on what do you see as some of the potential hurdles as uh as we develop here in this uh

576
00:54:31,271 --> 00:54:41,191
bitcoinized world yeah so i think that by holding bitcoin you kind of ensure yourself against all

577
00:54:41,191 --> 00:54:47,271
the madness that the bureaucrats are at the moment facilitating especially in the eu i mean it's

578
00:54:47,271 --> 00:54:47,731
It's wild.

579
00:54:48,331 --> 00:54:50,412
So I try actually not to pay too much attention.

580
00:54:50,592 --> 00:54:54,392
But within the business, I do because I have to pay attention to regulation.

581
00:54:55,132 --> 00:55:00,452
And at the moment, it's very difficult to integrate Bitcoin into real estate financing

582
00:55:00,452 --> 00:55:01,552
due to regulation.

583
00:55:01,771 --> 00:55:07,412
So I hope what is going to happen in the EU as the US is taking a bold stance,

584
00:55:07,751 --> 00:55:09,872
it's kind of telling the world what needs to be done.

585
00:55:10,211 --> 00:55:13,671
So even though the Europeans always like to criticize the US,

586
00:55:13,791 --> 00:55:16,572
at the end, they kind of follow the lead of the US.

587
00:55:16,572 --> 00:55:36,831
So at the moment with Bitcoin being now collateral that can be used to lend against for mortgage, I think that the regulation will kind of favor Bitcoin as a collateral that can then be integrated into real estate financing because the biggest risk is regulation.

588
00:55:37,471 --> 00:55:39,691
Let's say the bureaucrats, for whatever reason, say,

589
00:55:39,791 --> 00:55:42,771
we don't want to allow Bitcoin to be integrated into real estate

590
00:55:42,771 --> 00:55:44,791
because it's such a volatile asset.

591
00:55:44,912 --> 00:55:45,612
It's too dangerous.

592
00:55:46,231 --> 00:55:50,092
That's the biggest risk for the real estate industry and for the housing market.

593
00:55:50,572 --> 00:55:52,452
Personally, I can always buy Bitcoin.

594
00:55:52,671 --> 00:55:53,691
I can leave the EU.

595
00:55:54,231 --> 00:55:57,012
But I think for the housing market, that's the biggest risk.

596
00:55:57,912 --> 00:55:58,791
I got you.

597
00:55:58,892 --> 00:56:01,012
Well, Leon, you've been very generous with your time,

598
00:56:01,052 --> 00:56:02,492
and I appreciate you coming on the show.

599
00:56:02,492 --> 00:56:05,512
Why don't you tell people a little bit about where they can find you

600
00:56:05,512 --> 00:56:07,492
and find some of your work.

601
00:56:08,191 --> 00:56:08,492
Yes.

602
00:56:08,751 --> 00:56:10,552
Brenton, thank you for having me on.

603
00:56:10,892 --> 00:56:11,811
Great conversation.

604
00:56:11,992 --> 00:56:12,831
I really enjoyed it.

605
00:56:13,392 --> 00:56:14,932
You can find me on my website,

606
00:56:15,132 --> 00:56:16,211
leonvancum.com,

607
00:56:16,971 --> 00:56:18,711
leonvancum.substack.com.

608
00:56:18,771 --> 00:56:19,512
That's my newsletter

609
00:56:19,512 --> 00:56:21,331
where I share also sheets

610
00:56:21,331 --> 00:56:22,592
on integrating Bitcoin

611
00:56:22,592 --> 00:56:24,092
into the real estate business.

612
00:56:24,512 --> 00:56:25,711
And I have a book coming up

613
00:56:25,711 --> 00:56:27,452
with Bitcoin Magazine next year,

614
00:56:27,952 --> 00:56:28,852
Digital Real Estate,

615
00:56:28,952 --> 00:56:31,412
which will be out in Q1 or latest Q2.

616
00:56:31,952 --> 00:56:32,791
There we go.

617
00:56:32,872 --> 00:56:34,311
And I'll link all that in the show notes.

618
00:56:34,432 --> 00:56:35,072
And then, yeah, man,

619
00:56:35,072 --> 00:56:37,872
You'll have to come on shortly after the book comes out.

620
00:56:38,032 --> 00:56:39,392
I'm excited to read it.

621
00:56:39,632 --> 00:56:41,532
And thanks so much for all you do.

622
00:56:41,771 --> 00:56:43,831
And opening my eyes to all of this,

623
00:56:43,912 --> 00:56:44,992
because I was always thinking,

624
00:56:45,191 --> 00:56:46,612
hey, you know what, real estate,

625
00:56:46,731 --> 00:56:48,291
it's always going up and to the right.

626
00:56:48,852 --> 00:56:51,532
But I appreciate this unique thesis.

627
00:56:51,771 --> 00:56:54,211
And I think it's starting to play out.

628
00:56:54,852 --> 00:56:55,452
Thank you.

629
00:56:56,112 --> 00:56:57,671
Thank you guys all for tuning in

630
00:56:57,671 --> 00:57:00,751
to another great episode of the State of Bitcoin podcast.

631
00:57:01,151 --> 00:57:02,392
If you found some value in this one,

632
00:57:02,392 --> 00:57:04,012
please hit that subscribe button

633
00:57:04,012 --> 00:57:06,512
and that like button to help send this one to the masses.

634
00:57:06,731 --> 00:57:08,032
And I've got a surprise for you guys.

635
00:57:08,151 --> 00:57:09,372
I've got two more episodes

636
00:57:09,372 --> 00:57:11,372
that you have the chance to watch here.

637
00:57:11,512 --> 00:57:12,612
So go ahead and click one of them

638
00:57:12,612 --> 00:57:14,372
and I'll see you guys all at the next one.