And Rick had told me before we met, he's like, the president's a dealmaker.
He's not a regular politician.
You need to make a big ask and don't be afraid to make it.
I think if you come to our convention,
Hello, Bitcoiners. Thank you very much.
And you walk out on stage and you say, you're going to free Ross Ulbrich.
Everybody will lose their minds.
They will vote for him.
And he went, who's Ross Ulbrich?
We want to see him in the Fed.
but he can't do that.
Like, it's just not, it's not possible.
That's an act of Congress.
Is that a little frightening
that he just didn't know who he was though?
I mean, with all of this, you know, it seems like-
Well, I mean, he, like he said,
I love freeing people.
I'll walk out on stage and I'll say,
Marie Ross Ulbricht, mic drop.
Like it was that, it was that easy.
And then later in the conversation, he's like,
oh, I think I do remember him.
I think he was in a list of pardons
that was supposed to make it to my desk.
the last day that I was in office.
You have to sort of defend your right to disengage
because places like the Southern District of New York,
I think it's really about control.
And if they can't control you financially,
I know that so many people are so politically fatigued.
Don't just throw in the towel, take a little break,
you know, take a breather, but don't throw in the towel
because we just started winning.
What's up, guys? 70,000 of you guys keep coming back every single month, but 71% are not subscribed.
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I drop a video. All right, now let's get back into this great interview.
Bing bong, I am back with another edition of the State of Bitcoin podcast where I've got the legend
Angela McArdle in the house who has helped Ross Ulbrich be pardoned, but we've got a big case
coming up in the next three days or a big decision to be made pardon. Ironically, using the word
pardon here with the Samurai Wallet developers who are pushing for that pardon, who unfortunately
are sentenced to go to jail in the next three days. But Angela, with all of this stuff going
around, I got to ask, depending on the decision that's made, how big of a decision do you think
this is just for Bitcoiners in general and for free speech? Do you view that this is almost like
code is being looked at not as an extension of the First Amendment initially if the Samurai
wallet developers are not pardoned here in the next few days? I mean, I think that's the big
debate. And I don't know if people in the administration have viewed it that way because
I don't know how closely they are really looking at the details from that perspective, but they
understand the significance of it, at least for the Bitcoin community. Yeah. And it seems like
they've been very forward with the Bitcoin community. Obviously, Trump came and spoke at
the conference and JD Vance spoke at it within this past year as well. So a lot of political
influence. How important do they see the Bitcoin community in general just somewhat
having their back through this entire administration and especially with the midterm elections coming
up next year? Every half a percentage of a vote counts. So the issue coalition that they built
in 23 through 24 is just incredibly important. They understand that. They know that the Bitcoin
libertarian Maha voting blocks. Like if we don't turn out, they're totally hosed. And I think that
they already suspect they're going to lose Congress. That's something that happens, you know,
pretty normally in midterms anyway, but you know, they can't lose the Senate. They cannot afford to
lose the Senate. And so they need as much voter turnout as possible from Bitcoiners.
Yeah. And it seems like, um, you know, there, there has been a little bit of, I guess,
disappointment with the way that things have been developing.
You know, I guess we got promised a Bitcoin strategic reserve.
There hasn't been any Bitcoin buying, but they did pardon Ross Ulbrich.
So there has been a lot of, you know, positives in this space.
You know, overall, how are you viewing this administration right now?
I mean, obviously, you've got your, you know, you're a little bit closer into it, all of it.
So have Bitcoiners just been, I guess, unrealistic with some of the expectations going into this administration?
Or, you know, I guess, how have you viewed this whole thing sort of playing out with the connection between the two?
I think. I think that things are happening more slowly in the administration than anybody wants, including the administration.
And I mean, I can tell you, you know, like when I came in as chair of the National Libertarian Party, I essentially did a hostile takeover, which is like what the Trump administration is doing.
And it was really difficult for me with a staff of like 13 people to figure out who's treacherous, who's neutral, who's on my side, who's hiding data, who's stealing things.
It was really wild. Imagine that on the national level where you have hundreds of thousands of employees.
Like, I know that they want to stick to all their promises and, you know, make people happy.
But I think the pace at which they're able to do that is something, you know, that they might have underestimated.
Yeah. And I hear you. I think it's interesting, too, especially with the way that, you know, this whole Trump administration has come about.
Obviously, it's his second term, but he had four years to sit on it.
um so what have you been seeing like the true differences kind of between the two uh i guess
terms before them and then um yeah yeah what are some of the main differences you're seeing just
with this i guess four-year hiatus he had in between well the coalition building is like the
thing that jumps out at me the most you know the president literally reaching out to me to try to
get libertarian votes you know building bridges you know pardoning ross olbert committing to that
publicly, you know, working with Kennedy, like they understand that they need a broad coalition
to make this stuff happen. And then I think there's also a lot less naivety. You know,
Kash Patel had a really good book and like mini documentary about it called Government Gangsters,
where they show all the people who basically like didn't just like betray, like stabbed President
Trump in the back during his first administration, because they don't, so many of these people,
these career feds, they don't care about America. Like they care about their jobs. They kind of buy
into this global democracy thing, which is a very nice way of phrasing whatever they're doing.
And I think that president Trump, like he gets that now. And so he's more like on the alert and
watchful for it. And I think that's also why things have maybe gone a little bit more slowly
than those of us on the outside would hope is because they have to be so careful.
Yeah. So let's talk about, yeah, I guess some of the things that have been done,
you know, obviously you were very close with the pardoning of Ross Ulbrich. I guess,
take me through some of that process and shed some light on, you know, how that came about.
And, you know, yeah, that obviously is a major success story from the, you know, the Libertarian Party.
Bitcoiners got all behind it as well.
You know, it seems like it's a it's a big step forward for just, you know, freedom of speech as code, I guess, in a sense here.
So take us through some of that experience.
And yeah, tell us a little bit about what happened and how that came all about.
Okay. So, you know, I was just at home one morning and I wake up and I have a text message from Rick Grinnell, the former acting director of national security under Trump's first term and later the ambassador to Germany who's like, oh, hi, Angela. I got your number from a mutual friend.
And I'd love to know what you think about President Trump.
I'm a friend of his, you know, just trying to help him out and build some bridges.
So that was a lot.
I had some coffee first before I responded to him.
And it was early in the morning.
And, you know, I did this thing that libertarians don't always do, which is I was diplomatic in my response.
So I called Rick and I'm like, well, you know, the libertarians really love that he didn't start any new wars.
Not really crazy about the Soleimani drone strikes thing.
And we're very sympathetic to him for the lawfare that he's experienced.
And we really hope that he wins because it's gross and wrong.
And I think that was like a really important answer for me to give because, you know, Rick liked that.
We continued talking. He met with my husband and I, like just a couple of weeks later, he flew out to have dinner with us. And so we're talking, you know, and he's like, how do libertarians get, you know, how do they, how can they get behind Trump? How can he get your votes? And we just start talking about different libertarian issues, you know, the drug war, all kinds of stuff, monetary policy. And he's like, oh, President Trump's going to call you right now.
I was like, what? So he called me and we spoke for like 45 minutes and he was super nice.
Right. He's super nice and friendly. And he's just like, you're not going to get the vote.
You're not going to win. But but Joe Jorgensen, she cost me the election in 2020.
She got five percent. She did not get five percent, by the way. She did not get five percent.
But it was, you know, it was like one point two to one point three percent of the vote.
So I was like, well, you know, I'm the chair of another political party. I can't literally endorse you, put you on our ballot. You know, like I don't have that authority, but I can tell you how to get the small L vote. And he's like, let's keep talking.
so i flew down to mar-a-lago a couple of weeks later and had dinner with him and um
yeah that was a whole that was a whole that's a whole nother rabbit hole to go down you know what
is dinner like with with donald trump he was very sweet and person and friendly and has a lot of
charisma so we talked about all kinds of stuff right fentanyl ending the fed you know uh hillary
Clinton, just everything. And finally, he's like, you know, what do I do? Like, what's the thing?
And Rick had told me before we met, he's like, the president's a dealmaker. He's not a regular
politician. Whatever the libertarians want, you need to make a big ask and don't be afraid to make
it because he might he might negotiate it with you. He might work it down, but you make your ask
because he'll listen. And I thought, you know, what do we all want to see? Right. Bitcoiners,
libertarians, like conservatives, most of them, like we want to see him in the fed, but he can't
do that. Like, it's just not, it's not possible. That's an act of Congress. And I can't set him up
for failure. I can't make an ask that he can't deliver on. Whatever I ask needs to be wrapped
in emotional appeal. So we all like lose our minds and we're like, there's no way we can,
we cannot vote for him. And so I thought he's got a free Ross Ulbrich. He can do it. He doesn't
need anybody else to do it for him. That doesn't involve Congress, committees, none of that.
Our people are going to go nuts. You know, he's our standard bearer and it's going to change his
life. Like it's the, it's the only thing I can ask with seriousness as the number one ask.
So I told him, this was like really surreal for me because I hadn't run this by Ross. I hadn't
run this by Lynn. I run this by no one. Um, except my husband who was just like, okay, you know,
like, we're like, what do you ask? You know? So I told him, I think if you come to our convention,
which was another thing he wanted to do, come speak at our nominating convention for our
presidential candidate. I was like, all right, you know, maybe political suicide for me. We'll see.
But I think if you come to our convention and you walk out on stage and you say,
you're going to free Ross Ulbrich. Everybody will lose their minds. They will scream.
They will vote for you. And the Bitcoiners will vote for you. And they have money and they'll
give you their money. And he went, who's Ross Ulbrich? I'll do it. I'll free him. I love
freeing people. I'll walk out on stage and I'll say, free Ross Ulbrich, mic drop. And I just,
like it was that it was that easy i mean it was like you know i'd spent you know a long time
campaigning take over the national libertarian party the mises caucus put in like i don't know
five years of of hard work to totally like reform the the delegate situation all the state of field
a ton of work went into it but then i get there and i make the ask and he's just like yep i don't
know who he is, but you got it. Is that a little frightening that he just didn't know who he was
though? I mean, with all of this, you know, it seems like- Well, I mean, he, I think he's just,
like he said, I love freeing people. And we talked about who Ross was, right? And I kind of jogged
his memory and it turned like, and then later in the conversation, he's like, oh, I think I do
remember him. I think he was in a list of pardons that was supposed to make it to my desk the last
day that I was in office, but that horrible, horrible attorney general bar, he slow walked it
all and a horrible person didn't get anything done. And because because Rick kind of nudged him
and was like, I think that you were going to pardon him. So I don't think he was super familiar,
but it was on a list of approved pardons, which also really shows you just like how evil some of
those people in his first administration were like interlopers who just hated the president and his
agenda. Yeah, I mean, it definitely seems seems to be that way. What kind of, I guess, similarities
and differences do you see between, you know, with what what Ross Ulbricht was going through?
And, you know, what the samurai developers are going through right now?
I mean, it's it's similar. Like, you have the Southern District of New York, which, by the way,
when I was having dinner with President Trump, he was a few minutes late, because he was testifying
in trial in New York and he flew like straight down to have dinner with me. So, you know, you
have the same like radicalized political activist branch of the judicial, you know, district of the
judicial system going after people. And they're, and they're basically like, they're, they're
setting a precedent and they're firing a warning shot. You know, with Ross, it was like the, they
were firing a shot at all of Bitcoin. And here they're like, okay, well, we know, you know,
Bitcoin's here to stay, but anybody who's trying to innovate, you're trying to make,
you know, technological advances, financial privacy, do anything creative, like don't do it
because we're going to come after you and we're going to smear you and say that you helped a
terrorist or you did this or someone horrible used your tool. Like it's very similar.
yeah and uh you know i guess with that right i mean obviously you know we don know the decision yet by the time this podcast comes out we might know we might not Where do you see I guess this swinging
if we don't get a pardon before these guys go to jail? Is that going to be, you know, potentially
a huge negative for the Trump administration, I guess, in the eyes of the Libertarian Party?
And then on the flip side of things, if they do get pardoned before they, you know, go to jail,
here in the next couple of days. Would that be, I guess, in good faith, I guess, kind of similar
to the move you saw or the move that everybody saw from Trump pardoning Ross Ulbricht?
I mean, I think it'll be tough if that pardon doesn't come down first. I think a lot of people
are going to be really disappointed. I think at the same time, the administration understands how
significant it is to the community and also from a midterm perspective, not to be calloused and
calculating, but like they need the support and they know that. And some of the conversations
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but like they need the support and they know that. And some of the conversations I've had with
higher ups in the administration, while they haven't like confirmed like 100%, yes, it's
happening. They've been very friendly and positive to me when I've asked about it. And I take that as
a good sign because ultimately like they don't get to sign it, even if they're telling the president,
hey, you should do this. Like it is, the president is the only one who can do it,
but it sounds like the people around him are on board.
okay so that that that is a at least an encouraging sign and i have seen like rumblings on twitter
that or i guess x now that people uh close to trump have contacted him or let him know about
this i guess we're making enough noise as a bitcoin community uh as it stands but um you know
with all of this the connection into bitcoin and politics um do you see this i i guess like more as
like, yeah, I guess, how do you view Bitcoin when it comes to the policies? Because, you know,
you brought it up earlier when you were talking to Trump saying that the Bitcoiners would get behind
the Trump administration. They've got money. You know, I guess, how are the political parties
viewing it? Because it seems like they've been very apprehensive before this recent Trump
administration had gotten in. Well, yeah, I mean, Democrats, like at least the Democratic
party like the regime, they hate it. They hate it. I think that the GOP are going to be very
slow adopters and there are going to be people within the GOP who still hate it, you know,
but the younger generations don't. The Libertarian Party is like super friendly to Bitcoin. In fact,
you can donate to the LP in Bitcoin or I think they take a handful of cryptocurrencies as well.
um you know my advice to bitcoiners is when it comes to political activism you should keep doing
what you're doing because it is the most effective political activism just doing bitcoin and making
ways for people to like off-ramp you know but you also have to play defense sometimes and you have to
advance your own agenda and to the extent that you need to do that you have to pop up maybe twice a
year and get politically involved, whether that's advocating for pardons, voting in the midterms,
you know, selectively. I get a lot of Bitcoiners are non-voters, but, you know, maybe twice a year
you have to kind of hold your nose and get involved. And essentially, you have to sort of
defend your right to disengage because places like the Southern District of New York, like they're
they're financially ruby ridging you right now. You know, you retreat, you say, I disengage from
the system and they say, well, that's fine. We'll come after you and we'll ruin your life anyway.
And so that's why I think that it's important for you to become politically engaged,
even if it's just a little bit. Yeah. And it seems like that's,
you know, starting to, it's starting to make its way into all different, you know, I guess,
levels of politics. Not only, you know, obviously we've got Trump and the VPs,
but it seems like state levels all over.
But it seems like some states are very resistant.
Why do you think that that is?
Like the state of New York is one that is,
it's very difficult to buy Bitcoin there.
I know a lot of Bitcoin companies that allow you to buy Bitcoin,
like Strike, you're unable to get in the state of New York.
So why are, I guess, some states just so apprehensive for this?
And what makes the different regulations in the States like, I guess, so difficult?
Well, they hate freedom.
Like, I mean, it's not to sound hyperbolic, but it's completely like they want a different
culture.
They're not into 1776.
They're into 1984.
They want you to comply.
They want you to do whatever they want you to do, like just follow your marching orders.
They don't want you to think critically.
They just want you to follow their agenda.
and Bitcoin is like super not their agenda.
You know, like it's really,
I think it's really about control.
And if they can't control you financially,
you know, then you're an enemy essentially.
And also like, how does that work for unbanking
and social credit systems and that whole thing,
which, you know, they desperately want to implement.
It hurts it.
Yeah, I mean, I think the state of New York
is very interesting.
I think, especially right now
with obviously the mayoral candidate, you know, socialist,
and he's just come out and basically saying all these various socialist policies
that he wants to implement, especially like, you know, government-run grocery stores,
all of these different tactics that he wants to start to implement.
I guess, how has New York gotten to such an almost Orwellian state to this point?
And, you know, essentially, you know, getting so far away from what the, you know, the United
States was founded on.
Yeah.
I mean, the GOP has made some tactical errors over the last decade, for sure.
There's a lot of criticisms that can be leveled at Giuliani, but he cleaned up New York City.
And I was just there for a big event in Pub Key, which is an amazing place.
But New York City is kind of scary now.
and you know i think mom donnie got elected because people are so sick of everything being
so expensive and if you're not super economically literate you're not into austrian economics
bitcoin all that good stuff like you don't know you hear someone with with a viral campaign
and polished social media presence say that they hear that you're hurting you know that your rent
then groceries are too high. And they're like, I'm going to vote for that guy. It's not good.
You know, it's, it's not good. And it just sort of snowballs, you know, all of these,
these very, very far left, heavily populated states are huge welfare states. And it attracts
more and more people. I mean, I used to live in LA, you know, the homeless population grows and
grows because people go there to be homeless. The weather's beautiful and you can get handouts,
you know, $900 a month. It's like, that's pretty good if you're already committed to being homeless
and they vote, they vote. New York is the same, but it's bigger, you know, it's a bigger population.
Yeah, it's definitely interesting. And I'm curious, you know, obviously seeing all these
developments here, Trump's been in office for, you know, less than a year at this point, but how
would you kind of describe the overall, I guess, state of the US right now?
I mean, I think we're in a Cold War with the left, you know, and when I say we, I mean,
people who are like, not the far left, people who are center left, people who are far right,
people who are libertarians, conservative Bitcoiners, I feel like we're all sort of
in this Cold War with the left. And it's, it's kind of discouraging, you know?
yeah so then let's dive into that like what do you mean by the this cold war with the the far
left what do they what is i i guess their end goal you think i think that they want
the united states to adopt like globalist socialism and we really do live in two different
realities at this point you know like when when robert f kennedy jr did some incredible work
recently and altered the vaccine schedule to take like the hep B vaccine out of recommended
vaccines for infants. There were states that were like, oh no, you know what? We're going to have
our own for the first time in a long time. We're going to have our own recommendations. We're
leaving it on the list. We're defying RFK Jr.'s recommendation. That would have been unheard of
under Biden, you know, unheard of. They just, they, they are at war with our lifestyle.
And they're not shooting at us, at least in large groups. There's individuals who are shooting. There's no collective call to overt violence yet. But it's like a Cold War. We're at a standoff. We're diverging, I think, on two different paths.
Now, do you think the Trump administration is doing, I guess, a good job in allowing us to, I guess, keep their freedoms? And then, you know, I guess to parlay off of that, how do you see, I guess, RFK's now integration into this Trump admin as, you know, coming from the Libertarian Party?
I mean, he's doing an incredible job. I think like Kennedy is just one of the shining stars in the admin right now. We worked pretty closely with him, the Libertarian Party, because we we entered into what's called a joint fundraising agreement with him, which essentially allowed him to take larger donations as a presidential candidate.
because when you run as an independent, you can take like $3,000. And if you have a political party,
then it opens it up quite a bit. Even though he wasn't our candidate, we went into that
arrangement with him. It was very financially beneficial to all parties involved. So we sort
of like take extra pride in his work because we're like, hey, you know, we helped do that.
I think that the gains made in HHS are incredible. I think Secretary Besant is doing a good job too.
I think Tulsi Gabbard is doing an incredible job, even though you don't hear a lot about it on
social media right now. She has a hard job. She has a hard job because she's got to do the stuff
where you wonder if there's a changing of the guards in the future, are they going to come
after her? Like how they came after President Trump because she's exposing so many of the things
they did. I think, you know, what I told the libertarians when, when Donald Trump was, you
know, running and making all these promises, I was like, this is not going to be a fully libertarian
administration. So you need to set your expectations accordingly. If we gain a little bit of ground,
it will be the first time in a very long time that liberty has gained any ground. And
And I think that that's true.
The way that I would phrase it is that this is for the first time in, I don't know, over
a hundred years since the founding of the Federal Reserve, the tide has turned.
And I don't think people recognize how significant and truly difficult it is.
And so it's like, we've gained maybe just a little bit of ground, but we actually stopped
and halted and changed the course of the country. And I think that is the hardest thing to do.
You know, we moved away from COVID tyranny. We went in the opposite direction. The president said,
we're going to free Ross Ulbrich. It doesn't matter what the former administration said,
you know, the way that they've smeared him and we're going to be friendly to Bitcoin.
That's never happened before. So to that extent, like I'm really optimistic and I'm just grateful
for the progress we have. Yeah. I mean, it's definitely been, you know, I guess, uh, I guess
the flip side of things would have been pretty detrimental to say the very least, but I guess,
you know, do you think that, you know, we, I guess without what we saw for, you know, four or five
years ago now at this point with, uh, you know, COVID and all of the tyranny that came from that
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the easiest way possible. All right, enough from me. Let's get back to the show. You know, we I
guess without what we saw for, you know, four or five years ago now at this point with, you know,
COVID and all of the tyranny that came from that, do you think we would be, I guess, where the
pendulum would have swung as much back to where we are right now. Or was that, I guess, almost a,
I guess, a little kick in the tail that we needed? I mean, I guess it was the kick in the tail we
needed. It's really hard to wish that on us, you know? I guess the silver lining is that
we got motivated and a lot of people were were woken up to what was going on Yeah because I mean I think you know know from my i i guess just my friends and you know even people outside i know out of bitcoin um you know i was living in florida
at the time which obviously was uh you know the most open state but it seemed like uh you know a
lot of people that i met and became friends with at that time were moving from states like new york
or you know heavy states that were locked down and kind of coming down to florida um and then now
they never want to leave. And they were just like, that was the most ridiculous thing ever.
So I think it, it really opened a lot of people's eyes. Unfortunately, we had to have something like
that. But I do think that it was like a positive for people kind of looking forward, or I guess,
you know, I guess demanding our freedoms more. And, you know, I think RFK, kind of speaking on
his rise, with the Maha movement and everything else, I think kind of opened people's eyes to
the libertarian movement as well. So yeah, I guess, how do you see that the libertarian party
like continuing to develop as, you know, as we're going through this administration and kind of going
out into projecting a little bit into the future? Do you see them trying to embrace things like
Bitcoin more? You know, what kind of, I guess, movements do you see? I guess maybe not movements
is the best word, but I guess the path forward for the libertarian party, how would you line it out?
I mean, they need to stick to the wins that they gained under my administration. And, you know, that's up to them. They're very friendly to Bitcoin, but they have to understand that the gains with Bitcoin are going to continue to be made through coalitions with people friendly in the GOP, mostly.
And if someone who's a Democrat is friendly, that's great, too. You know, like Robert F. Kennedy Jr., he was not a GOP party member and he was very friendly to Bitcoin. But you can't be insulated. You know, one of the problems with the Libertarian Party, one of the reasons I, like, you know, made this big push with the Mises Caucus to take over leadership is because it essentially acted like a model UN club, you know, like for decades.
They didn't advance liberty. And so if you want to advance liberty, you got to work outside your bubble. You know, you got to you got to shake hands with people that you're maybe running against or in a different political party. But ultimately, you know, like that'll be up to them to decide what they want to do next.
Yeah. And so, I guess it brings us into the Mises Caucus here because obviously the Mises Institute, they're very big with the education, especially in Austrian economics.
I mean, there's a lot of different areas there.
I mean, I've got some great friends down in Tampa that run the Mises Institute down there.
They put on great events and a lot of education.
do you think we're going to get to a point where you know what we could potentially see the ending
of the fed in our lifetime because i know you brought it up a little bit here earlier um like
is that actually do you think that that's somewhat feasible uh to get through at this i mean maybe
maybe towards the end of our lifetimes i mean you had vivek ramaswamy running for president and he's
like a hardcore mises institute you know economically literate small l libertarian i think the only
the time he'd even voted before it was for Gary Johnson. Like he's in the, these people,
libertarians are, uh, it's kind of like, it's starting to come into, I don't know,
what's a good way to phrase it. Like it's our time, you know? And I think the ideas are just
difficult to contain, you know, they spread like wildfire and with the right spokesperson,
you know, maybe anything's possible. Yeah. It definitely seems like these ideas are getting
more popular. I mean, we're seeing, you know, things go viral about, you know, the Federal
Reserve, you know, dating back to, you know, obviously Creature of Jekyll Island, all of
these different things like becoming just more publicized, not only just in the Bitcoin
space, but I think just like more people in general are waking up. So it seems like there
is a lot of momentum, you know, in that movement. And yeah, I'm curious, like, what are you
seeing as the development here? And how do you see, I guess, you working with the Mises Caucus
here continuing to play out? What do you think is next and what are you aiming to continue to
develop as being the chair of the Mises Caucus? Yeah. So, well, we're recruiting. We're recruiting
Bitcoiners and Maha people really specifically to join the caucus and help us keep the Libertarian
party focused on wins, you know, focused on advancing like RFK Jr.'s agenda and Bitcoin
specifically, sound economic policy, making sure that we can do what we want to do, you know,
with Bitcoin, that we have financial freedom. And what we'd like to do is to see the party play
kingmaker in the future for 2028, nominate a Bitcoin and Maha POTUS and VPOTUS candidate,
send them to negotiate with a GOP candidate who, you know, hopefully would be JD Vance or someone
else who's been super friendly to our communities, get concessions, major concessions and drop out
and endorse and just repeat it right again and again. You don't have to like not every candidate
in the Libertarian Party needs to do that. We just need significant ones, right? Like if there's
going to be a handful of hotly contested races in swing states and the presidential race, get your
concessions and drop out. And that's how we can make actual advances. Like use the party as an
effective tool. And then also don't burn yourself out on a ton of Libertarian Party activism, right?
Like do a few things every year and then just continue to do what you do because like the
Bitcoin and Maha activism is important.
So that's really our pitch for why we want people to join the Mises caucus.
We want to take what you're doing and sort of stack the Libertarian Party's ballot access behind you
so that you have more firepower when it comes to the midterms and the presidential election.
Yeah, and I guess adding that firepower obviously would be very valuable
to, I guess, either candidate at this point, right?
Either party.
So it seems like at this point,
maybe we'll get the Democratic Party
to at least not swing as far left,
but I guess anything is possible at this point in time.
But as you see this,
like the economic policies kind of,
I guess, starting to play out,
do you see this shift getting towards
Austrian economics anytime soon?
I see it in cabinet members. I have a number, a small number of acquaintances and friends who are in Congress and the Senate, you know, and with the exception of them, like, I don't see anything impressive coming out of Congress.
I have like zero hope in Congress.
But when you have economically literate people running the Office of Management and Budget,
like Russ, who does an amazing job, Secretary of Pescent, like when you have intelligent
people in cabinet positions, they can do some really incredible stuff.
So that's my hope.
Yeah, it seems like that's going to be, I guess, I don't know, I think I feel like that's
a little bit more far-fetched of an idea, at least the way that things are going right now.
But maybe something drastic with the amount of inflation and the monetary policy that we're
seeing right now, maybe that'll open the eyes of some members. Because it does seem like
we're getting some people to, I guess, talk about inflation or at least point the fingers at that.
And it seems like there's a lot of stress around the monetary policy. Are you noticing,
I guess more stress around that, I guess, comparatively to maybe, you know, four to eight
years ago. Yeah, people are talking about it a lot more. And I think that's a good thing. You know,
people are starting to understand that it is inflation is not good. Inflation is not caused
by evil corporations. It's not how this works. It's caused by government. It's caused by printing
money. I think more people are starting to understand that. I mean, like I know that in the
in the 90s and early 2000s, that was not the narrative. So I'm optimistic about that.
Yeah, definitely seems like, you know, it I'll be optimistic, I guess, about it here going forward.
But I mean, the low interest rate environment, kind of his pushing a pal trying to get that
that lower. I mean, it just to me, it always seems like it there's something that could go,
I guess a little awry here where we could have essentially like inflation or an asset bubble to
say the least. And I think that in the short term, it would almost be viewed as a positive because
people looked at the S&P 500 as a mark of how the economy is doing. And I think Trump kind of has a
feeling that the younger generation looks at how Bitcoin is doing to get a grasp on the younger
market. Would you say that's fair to say? I think that's, I think that's, um, that's probably pretty
accurate. Okay. The younger generation, like they're so far removed from, from like the stock
market. Like I, they have, they don't even have a concept of savings. I don't think, I think it's
just like literally whatever's in your, your bank account is what you have in that moment. And
that is completely like we just I don't know about we people in their 20s.
Like, I don't know. I can't even relate to it. It's totally different.
Yeah. I mean, it's that the younger generation really did seem to get behind the Trump admin,
though. And it seems like that's been kind of a big shift. I guess. Why do you think that the
younger generation has kind of shifted over that way? And even, you know, I'm starting to see the
younger generation start to get to more libertarian policies and kind of align with the Maha movement
as well. You see, one of my absolute favorite things about Bitcoin is meeting all of you in
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shifted over that way and even you know i'm starting to see the younger generation start
to get to more libertarian policies and kind of align with you know the maha movement as well you
see you know the diets you see the kids on instagram and tiktok with the boards of steak
and eggs and everything like that, which I feel like is kind of like a layover from RFK.
So I guess, why do you think the younger generation, which I guess maybe 10, 15 years ago had always
been the far left, has kind of seen this shift? Well, I think that young men in particular,
because I think there's still a pretty big difference politically between Gen Z and Gen
women. But I think that Gen Z men are just really sick of being told they suck, you know, and,
and they're becoming immune to it. You know, they're becoming immune to being told that they're
bad because they're white people or they're bad because they're men or they're bad because they're
Americans. And they're, they're just like, it, it's like, you could just like throw it and it
just bounces right off. And so I think that they're just going to be more open-minded. I think
the millennial woke scold is just exhausting to them and not how they want to live their lives,
which is good. And I hope that the Gen Z women that it catches up. But I think there's going to
be a pretty intense right-wing backlash to some of the policies socially and culturally that we've
seen over the last like 15 years what do you mean by that i think that we are maybe a little bit more
in danger of like aggressive nationalism you know like kind of kind of scary the the darker side of
the right wing popping up in younger generations okay yeah let's keep diving like okay because i
I mean, I do think that there is an element of that, right?
I mean, we've seen the dark side of the left.
And I think at a certain point, getting too far on one side is detrimental.
And it's probably a little bit better to be a little bit closer to the middle,
much less than I guess people would argue here.
But it seems like the reason why the Democratic Party has lost
is because they swung so far left.
And it seems like that's just historically what always seems to happen
is somebody swings a little bit too far. So people kind of go back to the other side because
it's almost forced at that point. Yeah, it's a pendulum swing. And I just hope that we don't
swing into Nazi territory, really. I want to swing back towards freedom. I don't want to be
politically motivated by revenge. I think that some of the things that Fauci did, those people
need to, they need to meet justice, but I don't want to seek revenge on other Americans. Cause I
just don't think that's a, that's a good way to live. And it's not a good model for how to run a
country. Yeah. I mean, I agree a hundred percent and you know, it's interesting, especially,
yeah. I mean, you've seemingly been in this fight for, for freedom for nearly a decade.
How would you categorize the status of it? Do you think we're winning or losing that war?
I just think that for the first time we've turned the tide. And so I'm just very optimistic,
you know, because you're used to just sort of like fighting really hard so that you lose less.
And it's like, we just started to win a little bit. So I know that so many people are so politically
fatigued. And what I want to tell you is like, don't just throw in the towel, take a little break,
you know, take a breather, but don't throw in the towel because we just started winning. Like,
I'm sorry it took so long for us to just start winning, but like cheer up and be happy because
things are looking up even though you're tired, you know, like stick with it. Yeah. I mean,
I definitely agree. I think things are trending in the right direction, but what would you say
would be, need to be the biggest thing for us to get to like a full on, you know, uh, free state
where you know if everything that you would uh I guess could foresee or could want out of this admin in the next three years what were some of those things look like Okay So we need a candidate who will go to bat for us right And get major
concessions. We want to keep HHS. Let's take another cabinet position. What can we take?
You know, I know that people want peaceful foreign policy. You don't get that if you don't
go to the negotiating table and fight for it. I think we could probably start seeing that.
I think we need to get rid of a lot of spending. And if we continue to find and eliminate waste
fraud and abuse, especially on things like social security and Medicare, you know, like there are
people who are doing Medicaid. I think it's just Medicaid auditing right now. And the waste is in
the billions. Like, for example, if we continue to find people who are bringing in six figure
incomes, but also cashing in on Medicaid to get free prescriptions, like if we start knocking all
of that stuff out, like we're going to be in a much better place financially as a country.
Because I know that people are very worried about the national debt, you know, so we have to just
stop. We have to get rid of as much spending as possible. And that's the easiest place to start.
Yeah, I mean, if you look at it, I mean, just based on the numbers, right? I mean, I think since the year 2000, we've brought in more tax dollars every single presidency than the previous one. So it's always increased, but yet the debt just seems to be spiraling out of control. So it's like, you know, the government just has a spending problem at this point. And it's not necessarily an income problem, even though they always pitch, hey, let's bring in more tax dollars to help pay off this debt.
um so i i guess you know what how did you view i guess this whole doge situation because you know
i'm not super deep into the weeds of all of it but it seemed like that was the initial thought
was we're going to lower a lot of this governmental spending um you know elon was in there for it
seemed like just a couple of weeks and then you know that that disappeared and then now that whole
cabinet is non-existent. So it was something that just kind of was a flash of the pan.
It was supposed to sunset. So that was normal. It was only supposed to last for about six months,
and it did. They discovered a lot of waste, fraud, and abuse. But it's the Office of Management and
Budget that started zeroing things out. So USAID, the way that that was killed was through OMPI.
And so I know people were very disillusioned and they were upset about DOGE and they wanted to see
more happened, but things did happen. Like they found it. And instead of Congress, you know, which
at this point, when people tell me they're running for Congress, I'm like, oh, that's adorable.
You know, like whatever. Like Congress is not going to do anything. And I think that when people
were upset about Doge and all that, like direct your frustration at Congress, but also be realistic.
They'll never do anything. There's 435 of them. And 90% of them are like legit psychopaths.
Don't like, just let that go.
It all happens in the cabinets with the cabinet secretaries.
And in the Office of Management and Budget, they implemented just this really simple thing,
which is, okay, you want money and it's fine.
It's budgeted.
You know, you'll get it.
Just tell us what it's for and give us the spending code.
And all of a sudden, like people stopped requesting money and the spending stopped
because people wouldn't say what they wanted their money for. And they couldn't fill in a
government code because they're cheating. It's not like a real thing. That's like the USA thing.
And there's many other things just like it. Like people just know how to get money and request it.
And they're like, oh, okay, no problem. What's it for? It's just like crickets. So that's still
happening. You know, OMB is doing a great job and that's where a lot of the Doge stuff is going on.
So anyway, like I understand people were frustrated and disillusioned, but just remember a lot of really awesome things happen and you just don't hear about it on social media.
Yeah, I mean, it seems like, you know, there was like, I mean, if you go into like US Dex, like I don't know if it's still there, but it did have like a Doge saving area.
And now they have it.
Yeah, they switched it to like tariff revenue now, which is, I think, always kind of interesting.
But, you know, I think, you know, it is, I mean, obviously, social media, we get things done. And then, you know, you kind of forget about it after like two days or something like that, because of the way information spreads so quickly. But, you know, getting, I guess, back to a little bit of what we've got here in the next few days with the samurai guys, and, you know, some of the freedom movements, it seems like obviously, that's been been big for our, like the Bitcoiners are kind of rallying behind us.
behind them. And hopefully the admin does the right thing and pardons them. But it seems like
this isn't, I guess, an ending attack. There's a few more potential cases here. I know we were
talking a little bit pre-show about Ian and Roman sterling off. If you want to kind of detail what's
going on with them and is there any chance that you see them potentially getting pardoned?
Yeah. Pardon applications have been submitted for both of them. So Ian Freeman is serving time
for operating an unlicensed Bitcoin ATM, essentially, which is ridiculous.
And that's a rule that's very selectively enforced.
And it's unclear whether or not it needs to be enforced
since the statute doesn't refer to Bitcoin as funds.
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enough from me. Back to the show. And that's a rule that's very selectively enforced,
and it's unclear whether or not it needs to be enforced since the statute doesn't refer to
Bitcoin as funds. He was just essentially a really prominent freedom activist in New Hampshire.
who was passionate about getting people to adopt Bitcoin. He ran Bitcoin ATMs. He was locked up
because some people ran scams on his ATMs. He had better know your customer rules than any major
financial institution and actually stopped people from getting scammed. But they just want to make
an example out of him. And the feds just hated him because he was a prominent liberty activist in
his area. So we're really hoping that he will be home with his family for the holidays.
Same with Roman Sterlingov, who was accused of creating the Bitcoin fog mixer,
which his attorney says he didn't even do. Like not only should it not be a crime to create a
Bitcoin mixer, but he's not, he used it once. And the feds were just, they were so bad at their jobs.
They use this tool chain analysis that they couldn't even figure out who made it.
And they just found one person who had made a transaction.
And they said, well, then you must be the architect of it all.
So, you know, they're both serving time, which is terrible.
I'm in I'm in communication with them both and just hoping they can they can be freed.
Yeah, it seems like, you know, I guess is this kind of, I guess, a layover case from the previous admin?
Oh, always. There are always cases from the Biden administration, you know, with the exception of Ross, like it's all Biden DOJ. It's all Biden DOJ. And I know that, you know, like the pardon attorney's office under President Trump, they've done a fantastic job. They're aware of all these cases. It's just a matter of like getting them in front of the president.
and you know not everybody in the DOJ is on board with President Trump's agenda as we know
Southern District of New York not on board they don't want to comply with the Blanche memo they're
like oh whatever you know catch us if you can we're going to do what we want to do and it's
challenging sometimes to fire some of these federal employees so you know a lot of work I think a lot
of work still with regards to the federal staffing issues, but the federal workforce
has shrunk considerably under Trump. So I'm really grateful for that.
Yeah. So I guess, would there be, I guess, an ultimate goal that you think through these,
not only like through these pardons, but bringing so much attention and eyes to these different
things? Obviously, we've got new technology in the Bitcoin space just rapidly, you know,
kind of, I guess, ingraining itself in society, but also with the implementation of AI and all
of these different things just seems like the technological, technological spaces are just
changing at such a rapid pace. Is there anything that I guess, you know, you would like to see
passed, whether it's through law or something along those lines that could help avoid some of
these wrongful convictions? Or is this just a, I guess, a layover effect of just a poor,
system that we have?
Ideally, we codify protections
for Bitcoiners and people who are
writing code. Because we don't want
Bitcoin miners going to be on the hook
in the future.
It's not a good precedent
to see software developers locked up.
Free speech covers code writing.
It's typing.
It's characters on a keyboard.
And I don't think
that that really should
need to be clarified, but apparently we need to clarify something in the statute.
And if we can't get that, because Congress, having President Trump make an executive order,
codifying the Blanche memo in some way, that would be really helpful.
Yeah. I mean, it definitely seems like they just need to essentially just accept
for a code as free speech at this point, because it's... I mean, this is why I think
you know that there's there's the meme in the bitcoin space but everybody's you know the
shadowy super coder you know like kind of saying that they're they're hiding in their basement
because they're afraid to essentially come out and say that they're building these different
protocols and then it makes it difficult for people to you know raise money start companies
all of these different things and i think it's just kind of uh hurting the ecosystem uh so i think
you know a big yeah i guess positive not only like presidents uh the administration now being
friendly to this industry but this would be just absolutely massive and hopefully would change
i guess the perception um so i mean i think definitely these pardons are are one step but
i'm curious if you were to project out in five years from now uh where do you see yourself and
where do you see this liberty movement um as as we're like sitting here talking today like where
do you see this projecting out um because i mean you were lining out you you do think that there's
there's greener pastures ahead, obviously, where we're all kind of tired from this freedom.
I know.
It does seem like a brighter future. So I'm curious where you think we'll be in,
in like five years or so. I mean, I'll be either probably working with
the administration or, you know, somewhere in the industry or at home homeschooling my kids.
You know, I have one, I'd like to have one more. I think if we continue to work,
We are going to have a place in this administration and the next one, God willing, if it's J.D. Vance or someone similar to him.
And, you know, also, if the Trump kids continue to work on their crypto and Bitcoin projects, you know, like Bitcoin is going to be in a good place.
And I know that sometimes the Trump kids get some some shade for the things that they're working on.
But I got to say, like, that's good that they're doing it because it's like built in protections and guardrails for the rest of us.
Like, I want people close to President Trump doing Bitcoin, doing crypto, you know, because then it's always going to be at the forefront of his mind.
Yeah, definitely seems like that's that's trending in that direction.
Obviously, we've got, you know, the two Trump kids having American Bitcoin company.
You know, obviously, his younger son is very into it as well.
So I think that there is some brighter futures here, at least for the Bitcoin space.
It seems like we're over that hump, at least initially.
Obviously, things can change here very quickly.
But what can the people in the audience do to, I guess, help your cause and help potentially, you know, I guess, help with some of these pardons?
Obviously, we got the free samurai petitions that I could put in the bio or the show notes here.
But what are some other things that people can do to help spread the word?
Um, please also support Ian Freeman and Roman Sterling of Ian's petition is free and now.org and Roman Sterling of is free Roman.org. Roman storm to Romans, you know, who is, has not been sentenced yet. And, you know, God willing, won't be sentenced.
his petition is or his website is freeromannow.org I believe that's another one you know he's not
he's not in hot water yet but he's got a I think his next court appearance is January January 17th
so support all of them because when we link arms we are stronger I'm advocating like I'm so grateful
that the samurai wallet cases have gotten so much media attention because it just makes it easier for
everyone else. And be loud about it on social media. And if we get these pardons, like please
show up in the midterms and in elections where it matters, swing votes, you know, swing states.
Even if you have to hold your nose and vote for someone in the GOP you don't like,
like if President Trump delivers for you, we need to deliver for him.
awesome stuff well i'll link all that stuff in the show notes and uh angela where else can
people find out about you as well and help support you oh yeah i'm on uh twitter at real angela mac
and if you want to support the work i'm doing you can go to lp mises caucus.com
please uh sign up donate um we do have a handful of paid staffers and um you can find out about
the other good work we're doing, like Supreme Court civil asset forfeiture briefs, all kinds
of good stuff.
Awesome stuff.
I'll put all that in the show notes.
Be sure to support and help out where you guys can.
So Angela, thank you so much for the work that you do.
And thank you so much for your time today.
You're welcome.
Thanks for having me.
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