At one point, you're not going to be able to buy a Bitcoin or a 0.1 Bitcoin, right?
Maybe even smaller. I don't know.
How much is enough?
Do you know how many Bitcoin there are available in the world?
Only like 17, maybe 18 million, probably less.
And do you know how many millionaires there are in the world?
I worked at a bank.
I can actually say I'm a former banker because I took the oath that they introduced after the great financial crisis.
Bitcoin is either zero or it's the black hole of value.
Like everything of value will be measured in Bitcoin.
And then figure out how you can get as much of it before you cannot ever buy it anymore.
Probably in 20...
When 99% of all Bitcoin are mined and the last 1% is mined in the 107 years after, which is a rounding error.
So you have f***ed years left.
hundred percent of your portfolio to this with a 30-year time horizon most money managers would
call you an absolute lunatic so why are you so bullish on bitcoin and seeing it as the end all
be all and going all in well i think the sentence i say is bitcoin is an asymmetric opportunity
based on publicly available information right so um well there's there's a lot of there's a lot to
unpacked there, but that's what I think, right? And I think where it starts is that,
yeah, like you said, you know, my podcast is focused on millennials. I think you're a bit
younger than me, but I think you have the same problem, maybe even worse than the millennials,
is that, yeah, once you realize that fiat money debasement is basically a perpetual thing and also
ever accelerating, then how do you plan for your future? How can you make sure that you can actually
retire or whatever that means for us in reality versus what we've been told as to how your life
goes, right? So you go to school, you get a job and you buy all these things, a house, etc.,
build a family and then you retire, right? But if you're a mid-30s millennial and you still have to
work for 30 years and you have either, you know, a 401k or a money manager that does something for
you or an accountant or you do it yourself, you know, you're planning on having X amount of money
units by the time you retire, making sure you have a certain level of life that you want, right?
That's all an individual preference.
But how do you plan for the future if the value of each unit that you're planning on using in that future is being debased, like I said, at an accelerating rate, but also in the same way, in a very unpredictable way?
Like there is no way to plan for this future.
And I think the essence of that is to understand that it is not possible to plan for this future because there is an infinite possibility to create more money units.
So that's why people, of course, are putting a lot of money in real estate, right, or long index funds and stuff like that.
All the stuff that traditional financial advisors would tell you to do.
But all these people are also educated in a system that is designed to perpetuate, you know, the, I would say, involuntary, kind of like unconscious participation in this entire system, right?
So if you're told by someone who knows what money is that you should put your money in XYZ, long index fund or government bonds that are risk free, but in 2025 have a real negative rate of return, then yeah, you're not really going to make it into that future.
That is my personal conclusion.
So you have to start thinking for yourself.
And I think before you even get to Bitcoin, you have to understand that you have this problem today.
So whether or not you're interested in Bitcoin is not really relevant.
The first step is understanding that it's getting increasingly hard to plan for your future, but also realizing that your idea of this future with having a retirement and certain social benefits or whatever in your country is becoming more and more unlikely.
So you need to do something today.
I think that's one.
then two is okay what what are all the things that you that you could do right and um it's funny
because before we started you said you know i i worked at a bank i can actually say i'm a former
banker because i took the oath that they introduced after the great financial crisis so everyone would
would promise that they would behave literally it was that it was literally me watching a video of
the ceo saying like these are our guidelines do you agree yeah i agree okay now you're this was
banker oath like literally nothing else it's so crazy but um the thing the thing is that even even
when i was 30 and i had a mortgage and i worked at a bank um i didn't even understand money it took me
a lunch with a colleague who told me did you know that the money the bank is not yours and me
replying like wow what sorry what are what are you talking about and then he explained fractional
reserve banking to me and all that stuff and it took me that interaction to realize there is
something way bigger going on than thinking oh bitcoin is this investment or i'm gonna get rich
and that really drove me into learning more about the financial and economical aspects of bitcoin
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But even more about the reason of existence of Bitcoin is what we and that's what we started talking about, right?
So if you live or well, if you're forced to participate in a money system where each unit is being debased into perpetuity, and in essence, you are robbed of your time and energy, because that is basically what you're trying to save with the rewards from your labor in the abstracted form of what we call money, then yeah, what should you do?
And so if you look at all these options, oh yeah, that's what I wanted to say.
So although I've worked in finance, I don't have a finance background in that sense.
And I think that helped me to eventually just end up with Bitcoin because for me, it is just rational thinking.
So I think there's two parts there.
Like you need to understand how Bitcoin works to a degree and why you cannot just make more of it, one.
And two, why the absolute cap is basically secured by the consensus of all the people that are participating in the Bitcoin network.
I think those are essential that you need to understand that.
And then assuming that keeps on proliferating, right, as Jeff Booth says, as long as Bitcoin stays decentralized and secure, which means no one can change the ledger.
So the integrity of the Bitcoin blockchain or time chain only goes up over time.
I also call it, it's the highest form of ordered information ever to be created by people, right?
When you audit the Bitcoin blockchain now and I do it, it's the exact same for us.
There's no differentiation.
It's wild.
Like that there's an absolute truth that we share and that we can individually verify from across the world.
And so when you understand that as long as Bitcoin stays decentralized and secure, the integrity will only grow, which makes the value only grow.
because if the integrity grows, the predictability grows,
the trust grows, et cetera.
Okay, so if, and in the protocol rules, I mean,
and so in the protocol rules,
it says there will never be more than 21 million Bitcoin.
So there is this absolute finite supply, basically.
So when you understand that that exists,
I think that's the main element you should use
to compare it to all the other assets
that you could use to store your wealth in
because in a fiat money,
like we talked about now,
like I mentioned,
it's just not possible.
And so what have people done up till now?
They put it in real estate
that you need to maintain.
It becomes a liability.
It's never, you know,
it's conceptually, it's yours.
You know, there's a title deed and everything.
But if you don't pay the property taxes,
Eventually, someone with a gun will come to the door and say, like, you have to pay or we take this away from you.
So it's never really your property.
Stocks are definitely never your property, right?
There's clearing houses in between.
You know, the stock apps that you use are just basically a database viewer of whatever is ascribed to your account.
and so
yeah you can go down the list
of all the things that you could
store your wealth in next to fiat money
you end up with
gold and silver those are all traditional
ways to do that
and they're not bad
but I think if you think rationally
you have to wake up to the fact
that something came about
that is superior to
gold, silver and all these other
assets
so why is that?
Bitcoin is really the truly probably only thing you, well, it's probably the only thing you can ever truly own besides your body or something.
It's, you know, if you hold gold, I kill you.
I have your gold.
If I hold Bitcoin with a private key, you kill me.
You don't get my Bitcoin.
I can move my Bitcoin anywhere in the world because it lives nowhere and everywhere at the same time.
I can sell my Bitcoin.
I can transfer my Bitcoin to anyone at any time, at any place in the world.
Try doing that with real estate.
Try doing that with prime real estate in Texas on the beach.
right like if you want to sell a prime real estate home in texas on the beach no one in
new zealand is going to buy that right but there's people in new zealand that would want to buy my
bitcoin maybe those people want to buy your gold but try shipping the gold to new zealand right so
if you just go down the list of characteristics of different types of assets that you can use to
store your wealth then in my opinion rationally you would you would end up with um with bitcoin
but there's this back and forth i think also in the learning right because then now i think people
could ask well but but why is bitcoin a store of wealth right like aren't there you know 20 or 40
or 80 hundred thousand other um other cryptos and i think this is the the right way or a good way
to kind of go through the thinking
because you will go back and forth, right?
Because when you realize, okay,
there is apparently this digital asset
where I can do all these things
that I cannot do with traditional assets
that I know or other people have told me to know.
Okay, why is that?
Why would computer code be something that can store value?
And so that I think is the way that you can like rationally go back and forth to, well, I ended up with the conclusion that I should be 90 to 100% in Bitcoin because I think all the other assets are inferior.
And that combined with the asymmetric opportunity coming from the fact that it's a new asset, which was born right when the current main system started to die, basically.
and it's an asymmetric opportunity
because no one really ever thought about what money is
or why it's broken
and why people are substituting the store of value function
of what money should have with homes,
how homes became like a tradable asset
instead of a utility asset, right?
So there's all these things
that people have never thought about
when it comes to money or the function of the money
or even entertain the idea that the money could be broken,
that there are other people no better than us
that can just create infinite money
and therefore dilute our personal time and energy.
That sounds like a crazy conspiracy, right?
But it's true.
And if you still think it's a conspiracy,
well, then the Bitcoin meme is have fun staying poor.
But that, for example, is not a meme to shame, right?
Like it's a meme to wake up because you will be poor when you let all these other people
keep on debasing the money that you earn for spending your finite time and energy into infinity.
So if you want to keep on doing the dumbest trade ever to exist then you can have fun staying poor Like you need to wake up to the fact that you being bamboozled and that you were never aware of it and that you never thought about it right
That probably your only idea of money
came from when you were like six, seven or eight
and you were sent to a store
with some coins and some bills
and you were like,
well, I need to get a bread or a milk
and you gave it to the person in the store
and the person gave you the milk
and you were like, well, okay,
apparently this is money.
And then you never thought about it again.
Right. And I think that is just hard. It's hard to see that. And it took me a long time. Like I said, I was working at a bank and I didn't even understand it. A lot of people working at the bank also don't understand it. But once you see it, that that is the case, there's this bifurcation, right? There's a red or blue pill.
It's like, okay, there are other people that control the value of the money that I'm forced to use.
Am I okay with that or not?
And that is, I think, the first decision you have to make before you could even get to possibly seeing Bitcoin as the solution that you can use to protect yourself.
Yeah, I mean, that was great.
I mean, you went through it all.
But I'm curious, you know, when you're working at a bank, right?
I mean, you said you had one lunch with a colleague.
Obviously, you fell down the rabbit hole at some point after that.
What did it take for you to get from, okay, maybe I'm going to dip my toe in 1% to 2% allocation to get to 100% allocation of just Bitcoin?
Was it a certain amount of hours studying?
Was it something that just clicked?
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All right.
Enough from me.
Let's get back to the show.
Like, why did you all of a sudden go from, OK, you know, I mean, because I feel like everybody
kind of gets to that point, right?
Like, all right, I'll put a little in Bitcoin.
We'll see what it is.
And then you kind of get down the rabbit hole and then you become the maxis like we all
are.
So what took you to that, you know, crossing the Rubicon there?
Yeah, that's a great question.
So when I had that lunch, I was already into Bitcoin.
Like I walked into the HQ in the central business district of Amsterdam with a Bitcoin pin on my backpack, right?
Always feeling like a little, you know, infiltrator.
But until then, I really saw it as an investment.
Like, oh, I'm going to get rich, whatever.
but after that conversation so I think there were a few kind of like pivotal points it's hard to
kind of tie them all together but this was one like the conversation was one and I just remember
walking away being like okay I'm an idiot I'm an idiot I'm into this I work at a bank I have a
mortgage like I'm doing all these things and I have no clue how this financial system works so I
realized that I wasn't the actor that I thought I was, but I was a subject in a system. And yeah,
I just naturally got to that place where, like I just said, I thought, okay, am I okay with that or
not? And so I don't know specifically what I did or studied, but I do know that at one point,
I just realized, okay, so I need to store my wealth, however much that is, is irrelevant,
So you need to store your money, your pooled capital, until a point in the future where you want or maybe have to use it for XYZ use case.
That is all dependent on your own wants, needs, desires, etc.
But that is what you've been taught when you were younger, right?
Saving is good, etc.
But if you're saving in money units that are losing purchasing power over time, that's a bad decision. And that's why people feel like they need to put the money to work. But what people don't add to that is that's taking extra risk.
right so with a job or a venture you're already taking risk by choosing to do that right choosing
to to spend your time and energy on that but when the reward you receive is being
or it loses its its purchasing power over time because it's being debased you basically have a
secret second job that you don't know you have so when you're home from your job or your venture
you need to do stuff to mitigate the inevitable accelerating mathematically assured debasement
of the reward that you got today.
So people have been taught,
like I said, put it in these funds
or put it in real estate or whatever,
but they're not doing it in a conscious way, right?
It's all part of this system
of perpetual debt and nominal returns,
but not about protecting your purchasing power
over space and time
in a way that is understandable
and therefore at an acceptable,
conscious level of risk taking,
if that makes sense, right?
So when I realized that I was a subject in a system
that I could never truly understand on one side,
and I, you know, option A,
and then I saw option B, which was Bitcoin,
which, like I mentioned before,
I can verify by myself at any time, anywhere, right?
I can truly own it.
I can send it to anyone without any intermediary.
I can store it anywhere, et cetera.
So when I just realized that if you look at your current wealth
or whatever you have on your savings account,
look at it just visually, it's just like one unit,
a unit of your capital.
Move that into a system that you could actually verify for yourself.
And once I kind of like visualized or saw that, that's kind of when I went all in.
Yeah.
And I mean, hey, I'm with you on that.
And I think once you kind of, I guess, hit that Rubicon, it's almost like freeing in a sense.
But I think, you know, another question I got for you on this is when you said, you know, when you have enough, basically, based on however much, you know, you want for your lifestyle choices and everything like that.
You know, what were some of the things that you, I guess, determined with as like how much is enough?
Because I think, you know, when we reach this fixed supply asset, right, it's almost like, you know, Michael Saylor, too.
When he said he first discovered Bitcoin, he was waking up in the middle of the night with cold sweats because he's like, somebody else is going to figure this out and I'm not going to be able to get enough of it.
when did you kind of come to that conclusion that hey maybe this amount is enough or you know I don't
need to keep stacking as heavily you know I can treat myself to a nice little stake or something
like that you know when did you reach that point well I think I like the meme stay humble stack
sets right but I think from Eric stacks I had he said stay humble stay solvent stack sets or
something like that and i think that's a great addition right like holding holding bitcoin is
not just waiting and then wishing just just waiting right with anticipation oh well that that by the
way was another uh clear point for me where i was like okay i need to be in in bitcoin is when i saw
a guy on twitter say well if you think bitcoin is not going to zero you need a seat in the stadium
because, and it was funny because it resonated
because this is how I always looked at Bitcoin.
It's like Bitcoin is either zero
or it's the black hole of value.
Like everything of value will be measured in Bitcoin.
I don't think there's a middle way ending for Bitcoin.
So in that sense, Bitcoin is not without risk, obviously,
but I'm taking a certain risk
based on my current understanding,
based on my actual own research and reflection and whatever,
like everyone should do with whatever they hold their wealth in, right?
The point is that in a fiat money system,
you're just bamboozled without you knowing it, right?
And therefore, there's other people that take advantage of that.
So when I realized that it is, you know, stay humble, stay solvent, stack sets,
and when I got into the stadium, right,
when I saw that tweet and I was like, yeah,
the tweet literally said,
if you think it's not going to zero,
you should get a seat in the stadium.
There is no middle ending for Bitcoin.
I was like, yeah, that's exactly how I think about it.
That's when I realized if I want to watch this unfold,
I need to stay alive basically until I can see that happen, right?
And like you said about Sailor,
this whole idea of waking up with cold sweats,
and being like, oh shit, do I have enough Bitcoin?
Or do you know the meme with the cat that says,
no, I should have bought more Bitcoin.
I mean, if you really think about it,
and I've used this argument on five millionaires,
there are 60 millionaires in the world.
There's only 21 million Bitcoin,
3 million, 4 million are lost.
So I just ask millionaires, I come across,
I say like, hey, do you have friends?
Like I met a guy with a Porsche.
I said, do you have friends with a Porsche?
He's like, yeah.
And then say, okay, when you meet,
you're going to be like, oh, nice portion.
They're going to be like, yeah, nice portion.
And then I tell these guys, you have to say like, hey, do you have a Bitcoin?
And then they say like, no, of course not.
And then you should say, well, I have one Bitcoin.
Do you know how many Bitcoin there are available in the world?
Only like 17, maybe 18 million, probably less.
And do you know how many millionaires there are in the world?
And the first guy I told this looked at me and he was like, no.
And I said, 60 million.
and he was like whoa i need to buy i need to buy i need to buy bitcoin right and i think once you
grasp that you know sometimes you see these pictures of like all the gold in the world
is like this cube on a football field uh bitcoin is you know physically it is like infinitely small
that's how big it is
compared to gold if you want to like
visualize it in the gold and
Bitcoin way but the
crazy part is that you know
on X or whatever people replied
to me like oh yeah my
poop is also rare right
but
the point is
the point is that
a lot of things that
are rare and scarce are not
absolutely scarce
they're not absolutely finite
this is computer code and an incentive
structure that actually
is created to
enforce
a monetary protocol in a
decentralized and digital
way so even
though your poop might be scarce too
no one wants to store their wealth in
your poop and your poop decays and whatever
just like a home can also
decay right and whiskey
or sneakers even or whatever
so
the point is that once you see
that scarcity
and also understand that it's absolutely
finite, absolutely scarce
which is the only thing ever in the world
that is absolutely scarce that can also
function as a global decentralized neutral
money with final settlement
and then you understand
that
conceptually gold is scarce
but it's absolutely
infinite in the infiniteness
of the universe, then you see, or could see, that Bitcoin is miles ahead, light years ahead of gold.
Light years ahead of gold. On only this one characteristic being the scarcity, right?
Because the main argument of people that say, well, gold has value because it's scarce, right?
Okay, that's fine. Follow that reasoning. Anyone who's into gold, just follow that reasoning.
Okay, there is a thing in the world that is absolutely finite that can function as a money better than gold.
Okay, so, you know, you can dive into the gold versus Bitcoin thing for another hour.
But to go back to the question you asked is, at one point, you're not going to be able to buy a Bitcoin or a 0.1 Bitcoin, right?
Maybe even smaller.
I don't know.
Because like in history, people will figure out that the money is broken.
A lot of people unknowingly or like unconsciously kind of know
because they put it in real estate and stuff like that.
But at one point, it will be so bad that they will flock to the best money
like this has happened in history before.
And we are so early because this new form of money is something that's digital. So in the minds of a lot of people, it can also be created infinitely, right? Like if I have a photo on my computer, I can copy and paste it an infinite amount of times and I can just put it on my computer and then put it on another computer.
But there are these technologies that are working together in Bitcoin that actually create a bridge between the use of physical energy in the physical world to the creation of something digital in the digital realm, in cyberspace.
But that thing is basically a one of one.
So your part of a Bitcoin is unique and different than my part of a Bitcoin, if that makes sense.
And so, you know, you have 21 million full Bitcoins, but they're all divisible by 100 million parts, which is the actual integral unit of a Bitcoin.
So once you understand that there is that amount of units,
but there's a fence around it that says, you know,
you can you cannot make more of it If you want to you have to create the strongest computer network in the world Okay what does that mean What does that mean when there is something that is absolutely finite
It's either stupid, right? It goes to zero. Or it's the most amazing technological
advancement that we've ever, ever seen. And we could talk about what the result is of an absolute
finite money, you know, and what that could bring.
But at one point, you know, I think if you realize I need Bitcoin,
I think you also realize that there is now a window,
I think until 2033-ish, where the price is somewhat attainable.
You know, if you use those 60 million millionaires,
today, all of them cannot own a Bitcoin.
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All right, enough from me.
Let's get back to the show.
33% of them cannot even own,
or 66% of them cannot even own one Bitcoin.
So let's say, what is the price now?
92, 93K, right?
Let's say you're a cash millionaire, 1 million.
Are you going to put about 10% of your wealth
into this magic internet coin?
or trade or well exchange 110% of one form of money
into another form of money.
That's kind of how I see the price.
It's not a price, it's an exchange rate.
Are you going to do that?
I think that's a hard decision.
So even the people that are at that level of wealth
cannot all get one Bitcoin.
Percentage-wise from all their wealth,
It's quite a difficult decision whether or not to buy, well, one Bitcoin.
So they also have to put in the work, but they're also programmed in a way like we were all programmed about money, right?
So that is where this asymmetric opportunity comes from.
Like you don't have to be a millionaire or a multimillionaire to get into Bitcoin.
You have to figure it out with your mind what this means.
and that is where the asymmetrical opportunity comes from based on the publicly available
information all this information is free we are talking here for free i learned everything about
bitcoin for free okay and so that is that is just what it is so to this the summary for me is you
have a huge problem today there is no pension for you there are no social benefits for you
The money is mathematically assured to the base forever at an accelerating rate.
So how do you plan for your future?
Okay, you need to substitute the store of value function first of your money into another money or an asset.
Check all the assets that you could use.
Understand the characteristics and why they are important.
Then put Bitcoin next to it.
Understand what absolute digital scarcity means and the profoundness of it.
and then figure out how you can get as much of it
before you cannot ever buy it anymore.
Probably in 2043 when 99% of all Bitcoin are mined
and the last 1% is mined in the 107 years after,
which is a rounding error.
So you have eight years left.
I love it.
But yeah, I mean, another stat that I like to throw out
because I use the 60 million millionaires stat
all the time as well,
is that if you look at like,
I think it's BitInfo charts,
I like to pull that up,
but they've got all the distributions of the wallets.
Right now, there's 49 million wallets
that have $1 or more worth of Bitcoin right now.
So that means that it's more rare to own $1 of Bitcoin in cold storage
than it is to be a millionaire,
which I think is just absolutely insane when you break it all down.
But I mean, you lined out some of the things
that a few people like misunderstand about this bet.
But I'm curious because obviously, all the information is free and publicly available.
But what is something that, I mean, all of these people that aren't in Bitcoin, what is the biggest thing that you think they misunderstand?
And what is it going to take for them to, I guess, get over and kind of take that orange pill and join us here on the orange side?
Well, it's funny because you say bet, right?
I don't think Bitcoin is a bet, an investment, or a trade, right?
A lot of people would say, well, it's a speculative thing, dude.
Like, it's a speculative thing.
It's digital.
Like, what if the EMP comes?
Or what if the sun blows up?
Like, what if all the countries in the world coordinate to turn off the electricity or turn off the internet, right?
Like, a lot of people are at what I call end-of-the-road counter-arguments to Bitcoin.
Like, almost improbable scenarios.
that they're using as their anti-argument.
But I think one that I want to highlight is the,
it's a speculative thing.
I always say, dude, everything is speculative.
Waking up in the morning is speculative
because you might die, okay?
And if you invest in Tesla,
you speculate on the fact that Elon wakes up in the morning, right?
What happens to Tesla when Elon is dead in the morning, right?
Same for Steve Jobs, whatever, all that stuff.
So everything in life is speculation.
All the choices you make are speculating on a certain outcome that you hopefully are making in, you know, looking at in a conscious way before you make the decision.
So, you know, stuff like that is just nonsense, in my opinion.
I think what I just talked about is an objective and rational approach to the factual problem that everyone has, except the people that control us and that are in charge of the money, which is a way smaller group than us.
when you look look at that look at it like that you cannot deny you have a problem
and and that is why this is such a hard thing to grok just the understanding and the acceptance i
would say even the integration of the fact that you have been bamboozled even at 30 even at 50
even at 70 when you know i saw this video of a guy who retired in california and he bought a year
a house 40 years ago when he was 30
and he still lives there. Now he's
retired at 70. He has to work to
pay property taxes. And if he
doesn't pay the property taxes, right,
he gets evicted.
Because the man with the gun comes and says, you know,
this house isn't really yours.
That stuff is happening. Dude, in Lebanon
people rob banks, not to get
other people's money, but to get their own
money. Yeah.
You know, and so for me, it's
like when I come across these things
that are factually true,
And I realize, well, someone in Lebanon or Venezuela or Zimbabwe,
where there's hyperinflation, Argentina, they all have the same money system.
We are just, I'm lucky that I live in Europe, you know, like number two of the world.
You're lucky to live in the US, number one of the world, you know.
But they're all going in the same direction.
Not like just Zimbabwe or Argentina a few decades ago,
but also like many empires before us
hundreds of years ago, right?
Like this is nothing new.
It's nothing new.
So I think the first point is just accepting
you have this problem.
You are being bamboozled.
Yeah, that's messed up.
I know, really messed up.
Okay, what does that mean?
No one is coming to save you.
You have to figure this out.
You really have to figure this out
or else this whole system
where a small group of people
know better than you will still control you will just perpetuate right and like i said when i
visualized this idea that i could move from a fiat money system to a bitcoin system
and really grogged what that meant they can come after me they can pull guns and whatever
i can still have my my bitcoin and people will think that's crazy but i came to the conclusion
That's basically the level where we're in.
That is the level of the battle or the war or however you want to call it, I think, that we're in.
And so why would you go into Bitcoin?
Well, it's not only to preserve your own time and energy, but when you have children, what does your children's future look like?
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the money is useless like you see like you know even the pictures from venezuela where the money
is on the street. People use it, you know, really light it up for fire. That system is no different
than us. And that is, it is coming, I think. So what can you do about it? And I think the crazy
realization that I had is that Bitcoin is a way to do that. It's wild. I didn't expect that up
front. Like I said, I thought it was an investment. Oh, I'm going to get rich. I'm going to trade this
or whatever, until I realized it's a new form of money
that can actually protect me from the predatory abuse
and theft of my time and energy by other people
that I don't know, that don't know me.
So why would I accept that, right?
So I think this is a huge battle
and it's going to take a very long time.
and so I hope
I will see interesting things
in my life but I think Bitcoin
is more for the kids
what does their future look like
when the money is useless
when some of these technocratic people
are going to be like well you should have a CBDC
and scan your face or your hand
or you know like okay
is that what you want to give to
your kids
I don't want to do that so
I'm trying something
first for myself and for my kids and then you know just trying to tell uh other other people
about what what i've discovered if they buy bitcoin or not i don't really care to be honest
yeah and you're you're describing like a structural shift it seems right like it kind
of expanding your time horizon and if this is the case right i mean which i think a lot of us
listening here seem to believe or coming to that conclusion a lot of the financial advisors even
though there's the ETFs, they're still building a lot of, I guess, like, you know, financial based
tools on top of Bitcoin and not really just going straight into Bitcoin to the asset. So, you know,
why do you think the professional class hasn't really figured this out yet, especially, you know,
with your former banking experience, right? I mean, as a former finance bro,
why do you think the other ones hadn't figured it out yet?
well i was never really a finance finance bro but um i'm kidding i think it's because it's
bad man no no of course you should make it youtube titles like former banker no
oh no um i think it's a great question um it also seems like a very simplistic question i would say
but that's only, I'm only saying that when,
because I can look back, right?
Because like I just said,
I just think this is a very logical
and rational conclusion.
I think every other way
that I could store my time and energy over,
or well, store my wealth over time and space
is inferior, right?
So when someone says,
when are you going to sell Bitcoin?
Say, sell for what?
Like everything is inferior to this asset.
And I think people are kind of distracted when, you know,
when I say something like this, people are going to be like, yeah, sure.
Yeah, that's what I would say because you have Bitcoin.
You know, that's all fine.
You have to think for yourself.
And I think that's the hard loop because you have to get to a point
where you realize that quite a big amount of your time,
you haven't really of your life you haven't really fought for yourself you're just following certain
structures that are there certain things that people do because well other other people do them
right and i think that is why it is just it is just hard to see the fact that you can voluntarily
come up, like, could you voluntarily come up with the random thought of, is there a centralized
group of people that are debasing the money I'm forced to use in this country I was randomly
born in to siphon away my time and energy that I give away in a finite way, right?
Once you spend it, it's gone.
And yeah, how do I feel about that?
You know, no one is randomly sitting on their couch and being like, wow, this is a fun thing
I'm gonna, I'm gonna think about.
So I think it also it feels like a very distant thing Like no that could never be right Inflation is a natural phenomenon right it a beast that came from nowhere like christine lagarde of the ecb says right it all nonsense it it it it um it just not true and and you being bamboozled
again like it i think that is just effect but waking up to that is probably the hardest thing
because once you wake up to that,
you have this red-blue pill moment, right?
And some people would take a blue pill,
like the guy in the matrix that betrays the group with NIO
and says, well, I'm going to eat the steak.
I know the steak is fake, but I love the steak.
I'm just going to go back in the matrix, although it's fake.
I don't really care.
Those people are also there.
So that's fine.
Those people are always there.
So Bitcoin is for everyone, but not...
well, for anyone, but not everyone will get it.
And that's okay.
And I think it is probably harder when you are a finance broker,
when you are into finance, because your entire education
and your current working life and the way you provide for your family
is all depending on the fact that you don't figure out
that you're participating in what is basically a Ponzi scheme.
Yeah, and I mean, it seems to be the case. And, you know, what I think is interesting, too, is that now they're starting to see, hey, they've been getting their butts whipped by all the Bitcoin guys out here who just essentially bought Bitcoin, put it in cold storage and forgot about it for years.
So I think it is interesting that we're seeing this shift,
but I honestly don't even think it's really here yet
just because of what I lined out with all of the wallets
just having less than $1,
Bitcoin being less than the amount of millionaires.
Of course, they're looking at ETFs and all these other things.
But one thing that I think I really like the way that you put
is your long time preference.
Now, I want you to dive in kind of that shift
that you made for yourself?
Because I think the fiat mindset is more,
hey, we need to make sure that this is looking good now
or the next day,
or we need to make sure that the market's looking good
by mid-time this year because midterm elections are around.
So how do we move that shift
from essentially just these short burst cycles
into more of like a longer time horizon?
And will this eventually change
where there won't be the coveted four-year cycles of Bitcoin
and it'll just be kind of, I guess, up and to the right in a sense?
Big question.
I think the four-year cycle is dead in general.
I think up until now, the halving did matter.
I don't know if...
It would have been hard for Satoshi
to figure out, okay, it's going to take these X amount of years
and, you know, like let's say 12 years, 12 and a half,
well, like 14, 15 years for Bitcoin to actually,
well, basically be adopted to a certain degree
where everything we're talking about in this conversation
becomes clear to more and more people, right?
so the
the halving is just
it's basically just a technical
thing that
obviously had impact
but now I think the change
of the block reward
compared to
the amount
of
wealth that is stored in Bitcoin
is kind of
moving apart from each other in a sense
that the
The halving has less effect to the downside, I would say, and more effect in a negative way and more effect to the upside in a positive way.
Because if organically and logically more and more people figure out that the fiat money debasement is mathematically assured and they need to find a way to store their wealth, like we've been talking about for 45 minutes.
And yeah, if you follow a rational approach, you end up with Bitcoin.
Okay, so if more and more people end up with Bitcoin,
but there's less and less Bitcoin available,
then yeah, of course, with an absolute finance supply,
the price goes up.
And I think even in, let's say, 14 years,
Bitcoin has gone faster than other new technological innovations.
So I'd say it's right on track.
And in general, I'm not a price guy.
I'm not a chart guy or whatever.
So I don't really follow like liquidity cycles and stuff like that.
But what I have seen is that currently,
I think we have been in a very long kind of like consolidation,
well, like bearish consolidation phase.
And there's a lot of things that are happening this year
that especially in the US,
yeah, could show the incentives
for the current administration
to actually adopt Bitcoin.
And that has to do with,
well, like you said,
well, not, well, the midterms,
yeah, because that just happens.
But why is Bitcoin important for the US?
Well, they have a debt
that they can never repay.
And there are still people
that are buying that debt
because those people are still enchanted by risk-free rate of government bonds.
So there are still some fools that are still buying sovereign debt.
But that is drying up.
And there are different, well, the BRICS block, China, etc.
They are aware of this fact.
And again, this is nothing new.
Like in history, this has also happened.
many, many times before, right?
So what is an opt-out for America?
I learned this yesterday from Peter Dunworth.
What is an opt-out for America that would be politically approved
and which would not result in infinite money printing
to nominally pay back the debt
and infinite money printing would eventually result
in extreme currency debasement, right?
And affect just normal citizens and their homes
and pensions and all that stuff.
In the beginning of this year,
I think they have to refinance,
I don't know, you probably have that number,
but a lot of trillions of the debt, right?
So there's this clock that's ticking in that way.
There's a political clock ticking.
And so Peter Dunworth explained to me, well, if you would introduce BitBonds, right?
So why does Bitcoin's value go up over time?
I think it's important to highlight.
Well, if more and more people organically figure out they need a superior way to store their wealth.
By the way, when you do it in Bitcoin, you also store it in a medium of exchange.
but I think the medium of exchange function comes after people figuring out
there's a store value function, right?
Because why would I want to receive a Bitcoin in a value exchange
if I don't understand that I can actually save in it, right?
So I think the saving comes before the medium of exchange.
So if more and more people organically,
and I think at an accelerating rate,
like the money is being debased at an accelerating rate,
figure out that the money is broken,
They need a better asset to store their wealth.
Bitcoin is something that governments cannot print more of, right?
More and more people will find Bitcoin.
But when you look at the hollow waves, right, like how long Bitcoin has been held,
I think if you look at two years and longer, we're at like 58, maybe even above 60%.
And all those people already understand what we're talking about in this conversation.
So this also adds into the asymmetric opportunity for me,
is that there are already not a lot,
but enough people that already understand what this is
and they're not selling, right?
Like sell for what?
So if more and more people figure this out
and there's less and less Bitcoin available,
what happens to the price of Bitcoin, right?
It goes up, it's very basic.
So that will be my price prediction.
So this is where, this direction I think we're going.
And it's funny because I think over time,
kind of my idea around this shifted,
also connected to my attention to this.
But I still think there's going to be an inflection point.
There's going to be a game theoretical inflection point
where the interest in Bitcoin or the need for Bitcoin,
whether it's voluntarily or forced, right?
If the US comes out with,
oh, well, we have 600,000 Bitcoin,
China also has to do something
and Russia also has to do something
and countries in the EU also have to do something.
If Bitcoin is the new gold, they all have to do something even when they hate Bitcoin or don't understand it.
So that's what I mean with there's an involuntary growth of the need for Bitcoin and an involuntary growth for the need of Bitcoin.
And eventually this is still the same idea I've had years ago.
There's going to be an inflection point, I think.
There has to be on an absolute finite asset.
There has to be an inflection point where demand is way bigger than the supply and basic economics says price number go up.
Right.
Yeah, exactly. Right.
I mean, it's the simplest lesson in economics, right?
Supply and demand when it really comes down to it.
But I got to, you know, I mean, you have this 30 year time horizon that you've talked about before.
What would need to happen for that to you?
We sit here 30 years.
We're having this same conversation.
What would need to go wrong where all of us sitting here would be like, all right, what the hell happened?
We were so sure about this Bitcoin thing.
And now we're sitting here 30 years later and we were wrong.
What do you think is something that I guess you, maybe you don't foresee, but would be something that would make you change your thesis?
I think it's more the complacency of people.
So, you know, there's a classic, you know, there's a classic Bitcoin meme that says Bitcoin is inevitable.
And I used to say it a lot of the times because I thought, you know, all the other people in the world are rational, illogical, and they will also figure this out.
And that's why I'm waking up with sweats.
That's why sailors are waking up with sweats.
But that's not the case.
A lot of people need...
I don't want to say a push, but they need education,
just like you and I needed education.
And I think the idea of Bitcoin actually making your outlook on the future
be more positive and bringing you hope
is something that I think a lot of people that see Bitcoin
also would wish for other people,
but these other people are not going to figure it out at the same rate.
So when you say like Bitcoin is inevitable,
it's just going to happen whether you like it or not,
I think it's partially true
because the people that should understand,
like the finance bros,
eventually some will figure it out.
The biggest finance bro in the world has figured it out, right?
Like Larry Fink has figured it out.
So I think that's also something that creates a sense of urgency.
But Bitcoin is not inevitable in the sense that when you are into Bitcoin and you just think,
well, it's going to happen, I'm not going to contribute to it.
Now, that's fine if you don't want to do it.
But I do think it is necessary.
Bitcoin is in that sense not inevitable, right?
We need to educate our children.
We need to educate our family.
We need to educate our friends, not only on Bitcoin, but on the characteristics of what apparently, as I learned later in my life, is a better form of money.
What does that mean?
What are the characteristics of that?
So I think that's very important also for the thing that happened to gold not to happen to Bitcoin.
Gold was so good at money that it got replaced.
so if you if you want to make sure that doesn't happen with bitcoin you you shouldn't stop talking
about bitcoin and uh that's uh that well that's at least what i'm trying to to do and and every
time i get a reply on like youtube or spotify that says like oh you really helped me to to see it i
just post it on x and i say don't stop talking about bitcoin like i think you shouldn't stop
talking about uh about about um about bitcoin so what i think could be wrong is the could go wrong
is the is the just the complacency just thinking like oh yeah it is going to happen people are
going to figure it out like like i said i had a i had tour de maester on it's like a bitcoin og i
had him on my podcast and he used the word war for the first time right and that's it's not a nice
word to say or hear you know people have all these ideas with the word war but i do agree
like i like i kind of touched upon before this is a huge battle like the battle for the technology
of money in the world is probably the biggest technological battle that you could participate
in and it's not going to happen just because you figured it out and think other people also figure
it out i i really think you need to contribute to it if if you really want to see that um see
something change and and and see your you know visualize your kids in a better future than yours
which is the entire goal uh or which has been the entire goal for all of humanity right and um yeah
i i think uh you have to contribute to that i i feel called and invited to contribute to that so
that's what i'm i'm trying and i i think uh that that is probably the biggest threat just people
being complacent to that yeah man and you're doing a great job so i always love the the contribution
you're doing and it's always a pleasure to see i know i saw you on answer damn i'm sure you'll be
around at a lot of these conferences and meetups all around the world this year as well but for
those of you who don't know about bram where can they find you and listen to some of the great
stuff you're putting out yeah so the podcast is called bitcoin for millennials uh you can find
that on Spotify, Apple, everywhere. You can find it on YouTube. You can search for Bitcoin Bram,
B-R-A-M on YouTube. And I'm mainly active on X, at Bram K, B-R-A-M-K. And also on Noster,
you can search for my username and there's a profile there too.
There we go. I'll put that all in the show notes. So Bram, thanks so much.
And yeah, man, keep it up.
Will do. You too.
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