1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,640 One of the misconceptions is like, you don't have to buy a full Bitcoin. 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,520 How do I borrow against my Bitcoin to buy real estate? 3 00:00:09,860 --> 00:00:15,520 How do I borrow against my Bitcoin to buy income producing bonds or stock? 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,680 We're seeing Bitcoin getting taken off exchanges at an all time rate. 5 00:00:20,060 --> 00:00:25,360 2.25 million Bitcoin left on exchanges and they're not selling. 6 00:00:27,660 --> 00:00:28,520 What's up, guys? 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:33,000 before we get started, I've realized that over 50,000 of you guys keep coming back for every 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,180 single episode. And while I'm internally grateful for you guys to keep coming back, 9 00:00:37,420 --> 00:00:43,560 I've realized that 79% of you guys are not subscribed. So I have one small ask before 10 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,900 we get started. If you guys could hit that subscribe button and hit that like button to 11 00:00:47,900 --> 00:00:53,860 help send this interview and many more to the stratosphere, it would be greatly appreciated. 12 00:00:53,860 --> 00:00:56,240 All right, enough from me. Let's get into the show. 13 00:00:56,940 --> 00:01:03,020 Bing bong. I am back with another edition of the State of Bitcoin podcast where I've got the man, 14 00:01:03,140 --> 00:01:11,100 the myth, the legend, Hunter Albright here in the house, CRO of Salt Lending, a great sponsor of the 15 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:16,520 show. But Hunter, we've got a lot of craziness going on in the Bitcoin space, specifically 16 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:23,100 with a lot of the treasury companies coming online. But I think the unique aspect is what 17 00:01:23,100 --> 00:01:29,020 Jack Mauler's had to say here not too long ago about the Hodler's dilemma. Now we're seeing 18 00:01:29,020 --> 00:01:37,080 Bitcoin getting taken off exchanges at an all-time rate with 2.25 million Bitcoin left on exchanges 19 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:43,580 and 155,000 left on OTC desk. So we're seeing that rapidly being taken off. And it seems like 20 00:01:43,580 --> 00:01:49,840 the amount that treasury companies and everybody's buying up, they're not selling. So do you see this 21 00:01:49,840 --> 00:02:06,320 And what you guys are seeing, just the rapid adoption of these loans, really contributing to potentially a longer bull run that we're seeing and how we can potentially see the coveted Bitcoin supply shock maybe here in the next few months. 22 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,400 Well, first of all, Brandon, it's great to be here. 23 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,520 Looking forward to the conversation today. 24 00:02:11,620 --> 00:02:18,540 And I'm not going to get into predicting where the run's going to go or how high it's going to go or a number. 25 00:02:18,540 --> 00:02:26,360 But I can tell you we're super excited about the outlook and agree with the sentiment of sort of never selling. 26 00:02:27,020 --> 00:02:34,900 And, you know, at Salt, we've long had a saying that we've sort of talked about is sort of stay long, stay liquid, stay salty. 27 00:02:34,900 --> 00:03:00,360 And I think within that is really embedded this opportunity that I think Bitcoin is presenting individuals and businesses, and we're even seeing countries jump on the bandwagon about being able to build wealth and build financial stability and flexibility because of the asset class and the attention it's getting and the interest and ultimately the investment that it's getting. 28 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:09,960 And one of the things that I think is really exciting about Bitcoin in particular as an asset class is how it's democratizing wealth building. 29 00:03:10,740 --> 00:03:28,580 I've been given a lot of talks lately and in a lot of different conferences and really talking to people about how Bitcoin is opening up the strategies and tactics that the ultra wealthy have been using for centuries, but allowing all of us to be able to participate. 30 00:03:28,580 --> 00:03:39,300 And I think that is a testament to the asset, to the technology and to the ecosystem that those capabilities are sort of being made available. 31 00:03:39,620 --> 00:03:49,140 But one of the one of the still gaps is just education, helping people learn more about the asset, but also the the strategies and tactics that can be applied. 32 00:03:49,140 --> 00:04:11,020 Yeah, it's interesting that you bring up the education aspect because, I mean, we just had Michael Saylor kind of give a nice keynote here not too long ago about even though the MSTR got denied from being in the S&P 500, he's very optimistic on the outlook and part of the optimism is just the regulatory clarity. 33 00:04:11,020 --> 00:04:32,320 Now, Bitcoiners have hated the regulations here, but as somebody that's operating in the Bitcoin space, running a company through it, what is the change that you've noticed basically in the past, what, nine-ish months that you've seen in this space here since this new regime has come in? 34 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:57,200 Well, I mean, the new administration in the United States has definitely helped, one, provide clarity, which has increased, I think, the interest in the space from an investment, from a building perspective, and then ultimately from sort of a consumer perspective, whether that's on a retail individual basis or whether it's companies. 35 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:16,540 And so that clarity is really helpful. I think it's accelerated the innovation, it's accelerated sort of the capital investment and the amount of players in it. And I think it's going to benefit, you know, everybody that's participating as an example. And it's having a greater impact even outside the United States. 36 00:05:16,540 --> 00:05:25,820 So I just got back from Hong Kong, where I attended sort of the Bitcoin Asia Pacific conference in Hong Kong a couple of weeks ago. 37 00:05:26,020 --> 00:05:30,000 And there were over 20,000 people that attended the two day conference. 38 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:36,900 And that was the size of, you know, BTC sort of Las Vegas, you know, two or three years ago. 39 00:05:36,900 --> 00:05:46,480 And so the enthusiasm and the interest is spreading globally because of some of the momentum that we're seeing happening in the United States. 40 00:05:46,540 --> 00:05:52,520 yeah and it definitely seems like you know even though the u.s has been the the quote-unquote 41 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:56,620 leader that these other countries are starting to come on very strong of course we've got 42 00:05:56,620 --> 00:06:02,720 prog that has a very large conference in europe i mean there's bitcoin amsterdam coming up that's 43 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:07,920 probably going to be another very large conference then we see you know the meta planets all these 44 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:13,980 companies across the globe really starting to try to become you know the the corporation that is 45 00:06:13,980 --> 00:06:19,560 you know, the true Bitcoin holder in that country. But, you know, with this new regulation and 46 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:25,060 businesses starting to come on, you know, from, I mean, you don't have to disclose like everybody's, 47 00:06:25,060 --> 00:06:31,740 you know, numbers, so to speak, but have you seen an increase more so on the individual side or more 48 00:06:31,740 --> 00:06:39,040 on the business side of things to, you know, use these financial products, whether it's utilizing 49 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:46,880 Bitcoin as collateral, but to kind of help their business or help somebody individually, 50 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:52,800 have you seen an increase in both? And if so, which one have you seen, I guess, maybe a greater 51 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:59,440 demand for? So I would say, I mean, we're seeing an increased demand. So we serve three primary 52 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:05,760 segments at Salt. We traditionally have been a retail lender, really helping individuals 53 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:12,240 with their Bitcoin, getting the liquidity out of the value of the asset that they have 54 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:18,960 accumulated. We are seeing greater increase in terms of larger companies that are putting 55 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,700 Bitcoin on the treasury, even if it's just from an educational perspective, but wanting to 56 00:07:23,700 --> 00:07:33,440 understand how that asset helps them manage their business. And one of the great things about at 57 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:38,120 at least our historical customers and the experience that Salt has, you know, we really 58 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:44,040 started out doing corporate lending by backing miners and helping mining companies take 59 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,380 advantage of the Bitcoin that they were mining. 60 00:07:46,620 --> 00:07:49,060 But they needed to pay the power bills. 61 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:50,440 They needed to pay for maintenance. 62 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:55,140 They needed to think about how they could get capital to buy more machines. 63 00:07:55,740 --> 00:08:00,440 And so we've really been helping out, especially small and medium sized businesses, you know, 64 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,300 for the for the last, you know, eight plus years. 65 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:15,560 And I think that's going to continue to grow. And one of the one of the opportunities that I think is important in the U.S., but more globally, is the power of a Bitcoin reserve for small and medium sized businesses. 66 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:28,820 I think it can help really empower them, give them more financial flexibility and more financial resiliency without having to go through a process of applying to a regional or a local bank for a loan. 67 00:08:28,820 --> 00:08:47,000 And just as for individuals where you can get loans without credit checks, having a credit score, really getting a loan just on the value of the assets that you actually own will be empowering across the board for that commercial ecosystem. 68 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:53,040 him. Yeah. And it's interesting you say that kind of like the revolutionary aspect of small and 69 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,940 medium sized businesses. You know, in Saylor's recent talk, you talk about the Bitcoin 100, 70 00:08:58,220 --> 00:09:03,200 which is just the top 100 Bitcoin holding companies or companies with Bitcoin on the 71 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:11,700 balance sheet, ranging from as much as 640,000 about with micro strategy or now strategy to 72 00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:18,120 just about 78 on the low end. But either way, I mean, that can change a business drastically. 73 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:24,000 I mean, you're describing it for small and medium-sized businesses. But I mean, 74 00:09:24,380 --> 00:09:28,480 on the large scale of things, I mean, we saw strategy go from basically a zombie company 75 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:35,400 four or five years ago to now one of the more profitable companies in the world. In fact, 76 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:40,660 I think it was like one of 10 that had its revenue over $10 billion for a quarter. 77 00:09:40,660 --> 00:09:44,360 Of course, a lot of that being the change of the FASB ruling. 78 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:51,040 But with some of these new accounting principles and the regulatory clarity that we're seeing 79 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:57,460 with all of this, what's been the interest level and the educational questions that maybe 80 00:09:57,460 --> 00:10:03,840 some of these small to medium-sized businesses, what has made them most curious and maybe 81 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:09,360 the biggest pain point or fear around maybe developing this type of strategy that you've 82 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:09,700 noticed? 83 00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:31,120 Well, I think Bitcoin can be daunting for people and even just for individuals or for businesses. I think there's just basic education that has to take place. I mean, we have conversations with both businesses and individuals about how to get started. And one of the misconceptions is like, you know, you just don't have you don't have to buy a full Bitcoin. 84 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:47,900 And so even some of the basics about helping people understand that you can daily cost average your way in with $10, $100 a week or whatever is appropriate for your budget and your investment strategy becomes really empowering. 85 00:10:47,900 --> 00:10:52,900 uh you know and and i think one of the things that's interesting in terms of the trends from 86 00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:58,840 a company perspective and the same applies to an individual with your income is starting to think 87 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:05,760 about what amount of your revenue would you want to put into bitcoin on sort of just a daily habit 88 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:13,080 a weekly habit a monthly habit to be able to start to accumulate that reserve uh and not only 89 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:19,500 in that reserve are you helping sort of fight against potential inflation, fight against sort of, 90 00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:26,640 you know, the, you know, sort of the degradation of a fiat currency. You're also you're exposing 91 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:32,140 yourself to the upside of Bitcoin and then having that value stack that you can tap into and you can 92 00:11:32,140 --> 00:11:38,180 access when you need it. And whether that's to cover expenses for a month when revenues are 93 00:11:38,180 --> 00:11:44,380 dropped or you're making a proactive investment in new business opportunities to grow your business 94 00:11:44,380 --> 00:11:50,900 and build your wealth in that direction. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously we've got Bitcoin as like 95 00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:55,680 one of the most pristine collaterals on the planet and there's still, you know, that education 96 00:11:55,680 --> 00:12:03,780 aspect of it. But, you know, you brought up the whole unit bias. Obviously we've got that, 97 00:12:03,780 --> 00:12:08,340 But have you had anybody maybe really come at some worries about the volatility? 98 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:16,740 Because I think it's kind of peculiar how, you know, we've kind of seen maybe a little bit of a shift of the narrative of Bitcoin, 99 00:12:17,140 --> 00:12:21,800 where, you know, I think, you know, I'm not asking you for a price prediction necessarily, 100 00:12:21,980 --> 00:12:27,060 but it seems like majority of people are saying, hey, you know what, we're not got the days of, you know, 101 00:12:27,060 --> 00:12:34,960 seeing Bitcoin moon from, you know, a dollar to 10, 20, $30 in a day, we're not going to see those 102 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:39,740 anymore just because of the level of scale. So maybe that volatility has gone down a little bit. 103 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:47,320 And is that that seems like it's not as big of a fear with more of the Black Rocks, the MSTRs, 104 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:52,840 and some of these big players coming in. But I'm curious kind of what maybe the perception is 105 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:58,920 around that you're hearing? Are you still hearing that Bitcoin is too volatile or is those, 106 00:12:59,020 --> 00:13:04,280 I guess, whispers quieted down a little bit? I do think the sentiment is changing, right? 107 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:09,780 So the total amount of capital that's being invested and being brought into the sort of 108 00:13:09,780 --> 00:13:17,740 market cap of Bitcoin, it does have a stabilizing effect in terms of the volatility. I think we have 109 00:13:17,740 --> 00:13:23,900 to wait more to sort of understand the impact on the cycles and sort of the real trends in terms of, 110 00:13:23,900 --> 00:13:31,500 you know, how does that manifest sort of over sort of a multi-year period compared to what we've seen 111 00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:38,000 before. But the volatility has decreased. And I think that is making Bitcoin as an asset class 112 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:45,040 more investable for more people. I would say the other thing that we are seeing specifically in sort 113 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:52,380 of the lending related space is early on and at different points through sort of at least salt's 114 00:13:52,380 --> 00:13:58,900 history you know we lend up to a 70 percent ltv which stands for loan to value ratio right so if 115 00:13:58,900 --> 00:14:03,000 you have a one bitcoin let's say it's worth a hundred thousand dollars you could borrow up to 116 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:09,000 seventy thousand dollars and there were periods where there were people borrowing much more highly 117 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:14,880 leveraged on sort of their bitcoin either because they were using it as cash and they were getting 118 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:21,000 the cash out to sort of leverage it or making other investments. But we're seeing now with this 119 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:30,400 mentality of never sell and really sort of buy, borrow, die with your Bitcoin, people having 120 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:39,600 sort of stacks of Bitcoin and having maintaining lower LTVs to one, absorb any volatility, 121 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:45,020 but just be more conservative about how they're tapping into it. And so I think we are starting 122 00:14:45,020 --> 00:15:00,702 to see one the impact of education and also more responsible borrowing as it comes into people strategies for how do they take advantage of their assets Yeah now let dive into that a little bit more because I think you know 123 00:15:00,702 --> 00:15:07,222 you described the Bitcoin miners, you know, which last cycle we saw kind of the boom in the bust 124 00:15:07,222 --> 00:15:12,582 of that, you know, where, you know, a lot of miners kind of went belly up because they were, 125 00:15:12,683 --> 00:15:18,582 you know, just borrowing a bunch with this, I guess, approach with Bitcoin going way up, 126 00:15:18,582 --> 00:15:23,622 way up, way up. Now, obviously, you know, we, like we said, there, the volatility has gone down a 127 00:15:23,622 --> 00:15:28,102 little bit, but you know, with this cycle, have you noticed everybody being a little bit more, 128 00:15:28,642 --> 00:15:34,102 I'll say like conservative when they're, you know, borrowing or has there still been, 129 00:15:34,183 --> 00:15:40,322 you know, the demand for, for the higher LTVs? Because I think, you know, when you get, 130 00:15:40,442 --> 00:15:45,602 when you look at borrowing in a cycle, right? I mean, human nature is to kind of borrow at the top 131 00:15:45,602 --> 00:15:49,382 and when everything's skyrocketing 132 00:15:49,382 --> 00:15:50,742 and you think you have a lot more money. 133 00:15:50,842 --> 00:15:53,522 But I actually think right now where we're sitting, 134 00:15:53,982 --> 00:15:55,642 obviously not financial advice or anything, 135 00:15:55,642 --> 00:15:59,762 but just under that all-time high that we just hit, 136 00:16:00,402 --> 00:16:02,303 I think this is probably a pretty safe spot 137 00:16:02,303 --> 00:16:05,803 to start to look into this product 138 00:16:05,803 --> 00:16:09,362 because with what we usually see in Q4, 139 00:16:09,482 --> 00:16:11,202 Bitcoin has a lot of ways to go up. 140 00:16:11,622 --> 00:16:15,342 So that LTV could be decently high now, 141 00:16:15,342 --> 00:16:22,283 but we've spent so many, I think it's like over a hundred days now, straight over a hundred K or 142 00:16:22,283 --> 00:16:27,303 maybe a little bit less, but we've seen a lot of consecutive days over that a hundred K mark. 143 00:16:27,442 --> 00:16:33,242 So I think we have a ways to go up in this bull market. But anyway, it's a long winded way of 144 00:16:33,242 --> 00:16:42,303 saying, have you seen anybody or any differences in the, I guess, the behavior of the loan or the 145 00:16:42,303 --> 00:16:48,022 loanees or people taking loans this cycle? Yeah, I would say, you know, the SALT's customers, 146 00:16:48,262 --> 00:16:54,622 the borrowers, the strategies do really range. But I do think people are getting a better 147 00:16:54,622 --> 00:17:00,563 understanding. What if I told you you never had to sell your Bitcoin? Instead, you can borrow 148 00:17:00,563 --> 00:17:06,082 against it with SALT lending. Why give up your hard earned Bitcoin when you can unlock its value 149 00:17:06,082 --> 00:17:12,642 without letting it go. With Salt you get secure bitcoin collateralized loans with no credit 150 00:17:12,642 --> 00:17:19,962 checks, no prepayment fees and best of all, no rehypothecation. 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I mean, the first, in my opinion, right, 159 00:18:09,582 --> 00:18:14,602 one of the first perspectives is to understand your own risk profile and how you want to be 160 00:18:14,602 --> 00:18:20,783 thinking about your loan. And, you know, and also really understanding and doing your research on 161 00:18:20,783 --> 00:18:26,642 how a loan works. And so understanding sort of the margin calls and what the liquidation points 162 00:18:26,642 --> 00:18:35,182 are if you're taking out the loan. So at Salt, and we were very cognizant of this risk and the 163 00:18:35,182 --> 00:18:42,043 issues around borrowers about not wanting to lose their assets. We have a firm belief, 164 00:18:42,043 --> 00:18:48,862 it's your Bitcoin and we want to do everything we can to help it stay your Bitcoin. And so I think 165 00:18:48,862 --> 00:18:55,622 about 2019, I believe, is Salt came up with an innovation referred to as stabilization. 166 00:18:55,622 --> 00:19:09,722 And that innovation really allowed people to convert, automatically convert their Bitcoin into stablecoin at the liquidation threshold, which for sold is just below 91% LTV. 167 00:19:09,722 --> 00:19:16,642 be. And the benefit of that is that you don't end up losing all of your assets, right? It gets 168 00:19:16,642 --> 00:19:21,402 converted into stable coin. You can then add more collateral to the platform to bring your account 169 00:19:21,402 --> 00:19:27,722 into good standing and then be able to buy back in to the asset. And so in some cases, people were 170 00:19:27,722 --> 00:19:33,563 able to buy back in at a lower point because it got converted and they buy back in. And so it gives 171 00:19:33,563 --> 00:19:40,283 people some additional control and flexibility, especially in times of volatility. Now, earlier 172 00:19:40,283 --> 00:19:45,122 this year, we had another innovation that the team has worked on, which we refer to as Salt Shield. 173 00:19:45,783 --> 00:19:52,722 And this is a fee-based program where until the maturity date of your existing loan, you can enroll 174 00:19:52,722 --> 00:19:58,402 into the program and you are protected from any liquidation at all. And so your collateral, 175 00:19:58,402 --> 00:20:04,402 your Bitcoin collateral doesn't even get converted into stablecoin. And so I think, 176 00:20:04,662 --> 00:20:11,563 you know, one, we want people to be aware of sort of the volatility and how LTV can be used 177 00:20:11,563 --> 00:20:18,082 strategically. But in parallel with that, the team is definitely we're working on really helping 178 00:20:18,082 --> 00:20:24,783 eliminate as much of that downside risk as possible. Because we realized I think the sentiment 179 00:20:24,783 --> 00:20:30,502 been about Bitcoin and how people are using Bitcoin is changing, right? It's a long-term asset. 180 00:20:31,283 --> 00:20:36,402 And the key thing we hear from customers and borrowers over and again, like, I don't want 181 00:20:36,402 --> 00:20:41,482 to lose my Bitcoin, right? I don't want to get liquidated. And continuing to try to innovate in 182 00:20:41,482 --> 00:20:46,862 that space and provide new products and services is important, right? As I said, it's your Bitcoin 183 00:20:46,862 --> 00:20:50,242 and we want to do everything we can to help make sure it stays your Bitcoin. 184 00:20:54,783 --> 00:20:59,543 Sorry, I was muted there for a second. 185 00:20:59,662 --> 00:21:05,563 But obviously, yeah, we've seen the development of all of this industry. 186 00:21:05,703 --> 00:21:13,943 And I think as we sit here today, in this past six months, we've probably seen some of the quickest development with all of this. 187 00:21:13,943 --> 00:21:18,422 So, I mean, the fact that you guys are continuing to innovate is outstanding. 188 00:21:18,982 --> 00:21:21,203 And I think it's great. 189 00:21:21,283 --> 00:21:22,902 You're listening to the customers. 190 00:21:22,902 --> 00:21:31,882 But, you know, as we are continuing to grow with this, you know, how do you see this industry starting to develop? 191 00:21:32,283 --> 00:21:41,822 And, you know, like the partnerships that you guys are building with various businesses, are you starting to see some more businesses outside of the Bitcoin space? 192 00:21:41,882 --> 00:21:45,842 I know you mentioned a lot of these Bitcoin miners, but have you seen any others? 193 00:21:46,043 --> 00:21:48,822 You know, we were talking a little pre-show about potentially a restaurant. 194 00:21:49,043 --> 00:21:52,023 I mean, Tahini's up in Canada has made it. 195 00:21:52,023 --> 00:21:59,582 I think they're trickling down now into the United States, but they were one of the few companies that really started to put Bitcoin on the balance sheet early. 196 00:22:00,222 --> 00:22:10,902 Have you seen some more developments of various companies start to put Bitcoin on the balance sheet or really look at it as a viable, I guess, way forward? 197 00:22:11,742 --> 00:22:13,043 Yeah, yes. 198 00:22:13,182 --> 00:22:18,142 We have seen, I would say two segments for us that we're seeing more interest in having 199 00:22:18,142 --> 00:22:24,882 more conversations around getting into Bitcoin are business owners of all different sizes, 200 00:22:24,882 --> 00:22:31,462 you know, being able to accumulate Bitcoin and leverage it as we've talked about. 201 00:22:31,642 --> 00:22:36,722 I think the other area that we're getting a lot of interest is in private client or sort 202 00:22:36,722 --> 00:22:38,482 of private wealth and family offices. 203 00:22:38,482 --> 00:22:56,563 A lot of people that have USD or fiat-based assets looking to diversify and now feeling more comfortable with Bitcoin because of the level of visibility, the level of investment, and clarity on regulation. 204 00:22:57,242 --> 00:23:00,082 We have people coming to us with, hey, I have dollars. 205 00:23:00,222 --> 00:23:06,342 I want to be able to, one, own Bitcoin, and then, two, tap into its value. 206 00:23:06,682 --> 00:23:07,482 How do I do that? 207 00:23:07,482 --> 00:23:10,962 And so we often walk people through the cycle, right? 208 00:23:10,982 --> 00:23:15,182 I feel like it's a three-step process that either as an individual or business, you've 209 00:23:15,182 --> 00:23:15,783 got to go through. 210 00:23:16,162 --> 00:23:17,402 The first step is believe. 211 00:23:17,902 --> 00:23:23,142 You've got to start to understand and believe in Bitcoin as an asset class, understand why 212 00:23:23,142 --> 00:23:30,342 people are so excited by it, by the technology, by the value, by the potential of it. 213 00:23:30,682 --> 00:23:32,063 The second one is you got to buy it. 214 00:23:32,102 --> 00:23:36,902 You got to learn how to buy it, understand what you want sort of your purchase strategy 215 00:23:36,902 --> 00:23:43,002 to be as part of your overall portfolio and your overall investment strategy. And then the third is 216 00:23:43,002 --> 00:23:49,822 borrowing, understanding how to use borrowing as a strategic tool to be able to tap into that value. 217 00:23:50,063 --> 00:23:58,162 What we are seeing as the predominant use cases is that people are using loans to borrow against 218 00:23:58,162 --> 00:24:03,783 their Bitcoin to just live their life. They're using it for expenses to buy things. It might be 219 00:24:03,783 --> 00:24:09,242 an emergency expense. We have a number of customers that are very successful and have 220 00:24:09,242 --> 00:24:15,742 made a transition of getting out of debt by buying Bitcoin and then borrowing against their Bitcoin 221 00:24:15,742 --> 00:24:21,382 to pay off unsecured loans that are at higher rates, that are damaging to their credit score, 222 00:24:21,862 --> 00:24:28,662 and so really helping turn around their own financial stability. We have people that are 223 00:24:28,662 --> 00:24:34,582 then using borrowing against their Bitcoin as an income replacement. And it might be partial 224 00:24:34,582 --> 00:24:42,123 income replacement or it might be full income replacement for retirement. And then we have a 225 00:24:42,123 --> 00:24:47,422 group of customers and sort of a set of use cases where they're borrowing against their Bitcoin 226 00:24:47,422 --> 00:24:53,082 for other investment opportunities. So we're now thinking about how do I put my dollars to work in 227 00:24:53,082 --> 00:24:59,862 multiple ways. How do I borrow against my Bitcoin to buy income producing bonds or stocks? Or how 228 00:24:59,862 --> 00:25:08,322 do I borrow against my Bitcoin to buy real estate to further improve or change or develop their own 229 00:25:08,322 --> 00:25:15,422 strategy for wealth building? Yeah, and that's interesting where they're utilizing their own, 230 00:25:15,422 --> 00:25:19,803 I mean, they're essentially doing what the rich have been doing this entire time, right? Borrowing 231 00:25:19,803 --> 00:25:26,602 against assets in order to obtain more assets. And that seems like kind of, you know, the development. 232 00:25:27,063 --> 00:25:33,342 So I mean, it's interesting now we're starting to see, I guess, you know, sailors, infinite money 233 00:25:33,342 --> 00:25:39,563 glitch is what he's coined it, but individuals be able to utilize that with borrowing against 234 00:25:39,563 --> 00:25:45,182 their Bitcoin. Now with this industry kind of, you know, it seems like it's rapidly popping up, 235 00:25:45,182 --> 00:25:48,442 more and more companies are starting to come up and, you know, 236 00:25:48,442 --> 00:25:53,102 more innovation has come in, you know, to these products now. 237 00:25:53,102 --> 00:25:54,582 And you guys are obviously, you know, 238 00:25:54,623 --> 00:25:58,322 at the forefront of trying to innovate with all of these things like 239 00:25:58,322 --> 00:26:03,502 development of salt shield and whatnot. But is there like, you know, 240 00:26:03,563 --> 00:26:08,123 I guess any hurdles that have come about while trying to develop some of 241 00:26:08,123 --> 00:26:13,202 these, you know, I guess recent developments just, 242 00:26:13,202 --> 00:26:27,182 Or has like all the roadblocks with this new administration essentially been been lifted where, you know, with what you guys are building, there's just that regulatory clarity is allowing you guys to kind of operate. 243 00:26:27,322 --> 00:26:32,362 And now it's just the education piece that really is is coming forward. 244 00:26:32,362 --> 00:26:44,303 Well, I mean, I think education is still a key piece and the regulatory clarity. And I think the energy going towards additional regulatory clarity is extremely helpful. 245 00:26:44,303 --> 00:27:09,482 But that progress doesn't mitigate still some of the challenges that are needed in terms of improving broader, I guess I would say more bridges and integration between traditional finance and what's happening in sort of the Bitcoin space and sort of call it sort of the CeFi sort of world. 246 00:27:09,482 --> 00:27:20,402 I think there's more that still needs to happen in terms of how the different financial entities can collaborate and build platforms that are more seamless than they are today. 247 00:27:20,862 --> 00:27:26,162 This bull run, I think everybody should focus on getting their Bitcoin in self-custody and off exchanges. 248 00:27:26,482 --> 00:27:29,082 We all saw what happened last time with the huge blow-offs. 249 00:27:29,202 --> 00:27:33,102 We had Celsius, FTX, all of the big dogs blowing up. 250 00:27:33,242 --> 00:27:36,563 Well, this time, everybody's being smart and holding their Bitcoin in self-custody. 251 00:27:36,563 --> 00:27:40,422 This is why I'm going with the number one hardware wallet in the game. 252 00:27:40,523 --> 00:27:41,322 That's Trezor. 253 00:27:41,502 --> 00:27:44,362 You can go to trezor.io or the affiliate link below 254 00:27:44,362 --> 00:27:49,063 to get yours for 5% off using promo code GREENCANDLE5. 255 00:27:49,283 --> 00:27:52,642 Get your Bitcoin off exchanges in the easiest way possible. 256 00:27:53,043 --> 00:27:54,222 They are a trusted brand. 257 00:27:54,582 --> 00:27:58,222 They've been in the game the longest of any hardware wallets out there. 258 00:27:58,462 --> 00:28:00,123 So that's why I've partnered with them, 259 00:28:00,442 --> 00:28:03,502 making it the easiest for you to get your Bitcoin off exchanges 260 00:28:03,502 --> 00:28:06,543 and not have to worry about any counterparty risks. 261 00:28:06,563 --> 00:28:11,043 So do it today. Go to the affiliate link below. Use promo code GREENCANDLE5. 262 00:28:11,322 --> 00:28:13,283 Enough from me. Let's get back to the show. 263 00:28:13,962 --> 00:28:19,662 You know, wallets are still hard for most people and sort of understanding how that process works. 264 00:28:19,822 --> 00:28:31,082 And so I think the advancements in stablecoin actually is really helpful because I think if people become more comfortable making payments, making purchases with stablecoin, 265 00:28:31,082 --> 00:28:35,602 it's a smaller jump to then think about buying Bitcoin and managing Bitcoin. 266 00:28:35,602 --> 00:28:37,342 and sort of accumulating. 267 00:28:37,582 --> 00:28:44,283 And so the more that stable coins sort of permeate our daily lives, 268 00:28:44,283 --> 00:28:46,162 then I think that is beneficial. 269 00:28:46,162 --> 00:28:49,722 And that will lead into more people becoming interested in Bitcoin 270 00:28:49,722 --> 00:28:53,763 and starting to integrate it into their assets 271 00:28:53,763 --> 00:28:57,082 and how they sort of build and manage their wealth. 272 00:28:58,222 --> 00:29:02,763 Yeah, and it's definitely something that I think is going to develop. 273 00:29:02,763 --> 00:29:09,202 I mean, this education aspect, I think it's just a matter of time with the amount of attention we have around Bitcoin these days. 274 00:29:09,402 --> 00:29:15,922 But we were speaking a little bit pre-show that you're writing a book currently to kind of help with some of that Bitcoin education. 275 00:29:16,543 --> 00:29:21,082 Why don't you get into a little bit about this book and kind of the mission behind it? 276 00:29:21,582 --> 00:29:27,662 Yeah, so Sean Owen and I, and Sean is the co-founder of Salt and the CEO. 277 00:29:27,662 --> 00:29:33,322 And so we have been out talking and really interacting with a lot of people about why 278 00:29:33,322 --> 00:29:35,263 are we excited about Bitcoin? 279 00:29:35,263 --> 00:29:37,422 Why are we excited about salt? 280 00:29:37,422 --> 00:29:59,685 And a lot of that comes down to really helping provide as I would say more sort of financial stability and resiliency for individuals and businesses And so in the book The Bitcoin Advantage we really talk about one why we excited about Bitcoin as an asset class and two what it starts to mean for people in terms 281 00:29:59,685 --> 00:30:03,245 of building their own personal reserve or building a corporate reserve. 282 00:30:04,125 --> 00:30:09,425 Both, it's a really sort of practical book in terms of providing strategies and tactics 283 00:30:09,425 --> 00:30:14,385 to do that and how to help sort of manage the risks that are associated with it. 284 00:30:14,485 --> 00:30:19,645 And so, you know, I, you know, as I've been traveling around talking with people about 285 00:30:19,645 --> 00:30:24,345 how Bitcoin has changed their life or what are the use cases and the challenges that 286 00:30:24,345 --> 00:30:27,605 they find globally, there's a lot of trends. 287 00:30:28,225 --> 00:30:34,125 While there are definite differences, sort of culture to culture, you know, I think globally 288 00:30:34,125 --> 00:30:38,985 we're seeing some of the same challenges like 20 and 30 year olds globally are having a 289 00:30:38,985 --> 00:30:45,725 hard time buying homes, right? And home equity investment and buying a home and learning about 290 00:30:45,725 --> 00:30:52,305 finances through that vehicle has really been sort of a traditional process. In fact, I was speaking 291 00:30:52,305 --> 00:30:58,965 with somebody that for boomers, right, the comment was made that home equity investing or home 292 00:30:58,965 --> 00:31:04,105 investing was the gold standard for building wealth. And I think as we look forward that 293 00:31:04,105 --> 00:31:10,745 Bitcoin is becoming more of that gold standard for how people build wealth. Because if you can't, 294 00:31:11,045 --> 00:31:16,805 like in the United States, the average age of a first-time home buyer has gone from 25 to above 35. 295 00:31:17,985 --> 00:31:25,145 And in Hong Kong, where I was, it's above 40. And so you look globally about people not being 296 00:31:25,145 --> 00:31:30,425 able to buy their first home until they're in their mid-30s. What are they doing for 10 to 15 297 00:31:30,425 --> 00:31:38,585 years of income generation to accumulate assets that can both appreciate and where you if you need 298 00:31:38,585 --> 00:31:45,005 the leverage, you can take the leverage. And so my hope is with the book is that, you know, 299 00:31:45,125 --> 00:31:51,565 we're educating people on one Bitcoin as an asset class and to the strategies and tactics that they 300 00:31:51,565 --> 00:31:57,945 can start to leverage as they are potentially getting shut out of different aspects of the 301 00:31:57,945 --> 00:32:04,645 financial system. Yeah. And I mean, it's funny you bring up housing because I talk about that a lot 302 00:32:04,645 --> 00:32:11,905 because, you know, I think I saw a stat here about this past year or this year, 2025, 303 00:32:11,905 --> 00:32:20,065 and more homebuyers over the age of 70 have bought in homes than under the age of 35 this year. 304 00:32:20,165 --> 00:32:23,685 And that seems to be a growing trend. It's the first time this has ever happened. 305 00:32:23,685 --> 00:32:47,225 So it's exactly like you're saying. It's like boomers have had all these assets and everything else. And that's how they still look at the gold standard of building wealth is through home buying. And so they're continuing to do it. But the average home in the United States is like $450,000 right now. And for a starter home, that ain't cheap. 306 00:32:47,225 --> 00:32:50,105 You know, I mean, nearly half a million dollars. 307 00:32:50,265 --> 00:32:54,785 But if you price that in Bitcoin, the average home price has been going down. 308 00:32:55,085 --> 00:33:03,425 And, you know, I think over time, we're going to start to see that become really the real sign of wealth. 309 00:33:04,345 --> 00:33:06,485 You know, I've got one graphic. 310 00:33:06,645 --> 00:33:08,385 Maybe I'll have the guys stick it in here. 311 00:33:08,385 --> 00:33:18,045 But the average home in 2017 was $337,900, which was about 24 Bitcoin at that time. 312 00:33:18,605 --> 00:33:25,745 Here in 2025, it's $410,800. 313 00:33:26,285 --> 00:33:30,845 And that's around four Bitcoin at the time that Bitcoin mag made this. 314 00:33:30,905 --> 00:33:34,945 So you just see the drastic drop if you price everything in Bitcoin. 315 00:33:34,945 --> 00:33:40,025 and uh you know as we get through this development right i mean it seems like 316 00:33:40,025 --> 00:33:44,685 you know right now everything's still priced in dollars but have you seen a you know a growing 317 00:33:44,685 --> 00:33:50,085 trend where people are starting to look at more uh i guess pricing things in bitcoin and kind of 318 00:33:50,085 --> 00:33:54,565 saving for homes almost in bitcoin because to be honest when i was buying my first house that's 319 00:33:54,565 --> 00:34:00,105 i was kind of using the s&p 500 just to save into it because that was a little less volatile i mean 320 00:34:00,105 --> 00:34:05,925 looking back, I wish I would have put it in Bitcoin. But, you know, I think that's going 321 00:34:05,925 --> 00:34:10,765 to be a growing trend. And do you see that as well, like some more young people starting to get 322 00:34:10,765 --> 00:34:18,605 in to Bitcoin just because they see real estate as unattainable? I think so. Before I jump to the 323 00:34:18,605 --> 00:34:24,965 question real quickly, I think you can't identify yourself as a true Bitcoiner if you don't have a 324 00:34:24,965 --> 00:34:31,045 story of regret of either having lost Bitcoin, like not purchased it when you had the thought 325 00:34:31,045 --> 00:34:36,245 of buying it or sold it in the past. And so I think, you know, all of us have those stories 326 00:34:36,245 --> 00:34:42,325 to relate. And I think, you know, which is part of the journey. I think actually any one of those 327 00:34:42,325 --> 00:34:48,565 items is a bit of the learning curve and understanding how precious and valuable the 328 00:34:48,565 --> 00:34:54,345 asset is, both in terms of thinking about what your accumulation strategy is and then how, 329 00:34:54,345 --> 00:35:00,825 what do you do to sort of hold on to it for for as long as you can and we do know that right we're 330 00:35:00,825 --> 00:35:06,425 having more conversations with people and there's more people out educating about building a legacy 331 00:35:06,425 --> 00:35:12,025 and thinking about how do you pass on your bitcoin and and the strategies to do that so it's it's not 332 00:35:12,025 --> 00:35:18,585 only personal wealth or corporate wealth but it's multi-generational wealth um and in going back to 333 00:35:18,585 --> 00:35:24,925 to your sort of question in terms of getting priced out and sort of not having access to 334 00:35:24,925 --> 00:35:31,005 sort of real estate. I think that's true. I think people are looking for those investment vehicles 335 00:35:31,005 --> 00:35:39,825 where, you know, they can start to build wealth and really learn the basics of financial management. 336 00:35:40,085 --> 00:35:45,325 I get, you know, going back, I sort of, I think that's home buying, the home buying process and 337 00:35:45,325 --> 00:35:50,165 being responsible for paying your mortgage every month, ensuring that you learn that discipline 338 00:35:50,165 --> 00:36:00,505 has to be replaced for generations of people now about learning, one, the technical aspects of 339 00:36:00,505 --> 00:36:06,865 financial management, but also the discipline. And so hopefully with education efforts from 340 00:36:06,865 --> 00:36:12,305 yourself, what we're doing with the Bitcoin Advantage and many others in the space, 341 00:36:12,305 --> 00:36:19,685 that people start to understand what they need to learn and then start to practice the habits 342 00:36:19,685 --> 00:36:26,385 and even just the process of going through and buying Bitcoin, understanding its volatility, 343 00:36:27,005 --> 00:36:32,465 getting comfortable with managing a loan and doing it at small amounts. So you're not nervous 344 00:36:32,465 --> 00:36:37,625 and you're not sort of afraid as you start to accumulate larger amounts and greater wealth. 345 00:36:37,625 --> 00:36:43,325 yeah i mean i i actually just spoke at uh you know a local college here the university of 346 00:36:43,325 --> 00:36:49,865 tampa so shout out to them they just got a bitcoin education uh course as well but uh you know when 347 00:36:49,865 --> 00:36:54,405 i was talking to a lot of them yeah when you start talking into the nitty-gritties of bitcoin 348 00:36:54,405 --> 00:36:59,925 they it kind of just glazes over their head you know you like the nodes the miners all that kind 349 00:36:59,925 --> 00:37:04,305 of stuff but i think you know when you kind of break it down you know you could buy a dollar's 350 00:37:04,305 --> 00:37:08,385 worth, a quarter's worth. You could buy a penny's worth of Bitcoin and just kind of start sacking 351 00:37:08,385 --> 00:37:14,245 sats that way. And then on top of it, you know, it's the best performing asset there is. 352 00:37:14,765 --> 00:37:19,225 Why would you ever hold generational wealth on a piece of paper? It doesn't make sense. 353 00:37:19,545 --> 00:37:26,165 You need a foolproof solution and I've got it for you. You could get this as low as $25. And if you 354 00:37:26,165 --> 00:37:32,025 use promo code green candle, you can get 10% off being around for 12 years. They've engineered the 355 00:37:32,025 --> 00:37:37,805 perfect and most easy to use solution. I've partnered with CryptoSteel to offer for you guys 356 00:37:37,805 --> 00:37:44,225 just that. It is the cheapest and most secure way to store your C-phrase. I don't know about you guys, 357 00:37:44,225 --> 00:37:49,505 but I don't have too many things where I think one ton is going to fall on this, but it could 358 00:37:49,505 --> 00:37:56,665 survive all of that and more. So go to CryptoSteel.com. You can use promo code GREENCANDLE. 359 00:37:56,665 --> 00:38:01,485 You can get 10% off your entire order if you go there today. 360 00:38:01,905 --> 00:38:06,745 So go ahead and protect your generational wealth and do it with crypto steel. 361 00:38:07,125 --> 00:38:08,465 All right, enough from me. 362 00:38:08,565 --> 00:38:09,425 Back to the show. 363 00:38:09,965 --> 00:38:12,765 And you don't need to have this big overhead. 364 00:38:13,185 --> 00:38:18,525 And the simple supply and demand of it, I think, is what people just kind of don't really understand 365 00:38:18,525 --> 00:38:22,285 because we've never had anything as scarce as Bitcoin. 366 00:38:22,285 --> 00:38:46,565 Of course, there's time. But outside of that, I mean, you know, people have talked about gold, have talked about real estate. But when you're talking to all of these and like educating people about the comparisons, how do you navigate that question? Are you usually kind of talking about it as the digital gold aspect? Or is there some other way that you've found that that really resonates with people? 367 00:38:46,565 --> 00:39:03,805 So, I mean, I think the digital gold is, for me, one of the best sort of metaphors and sort of stories to tell about, you know, how, you know, why there's value in Bitcoin, why there's so much interest and how to think about it as one, right? 368 00:39:03,805 --> 00:39:08,305 I mean, there's a couple aspects that make Bitcoin really unique, right? 369 00:39:08,525 --> 00:39:09,885 There's 21 million. 370 00:39:10,045 --> 00:39:11,545 There never will be any more than that. 371 00:39:11,605 --> 00:39:21,405 In fact, I think the number is probably closer to 17 to 18 million that are actually out in the world that haven't been sort of lost forever, right? 372 00:39:21,445 --> 00:39:25,525 So it is a scarce asset by design. 373 00:39:25,525 --> 00:39:35,625 And in addition to that, it is one that your ability to buy it and your ability to sell it is ungated. 374 00:39:36,845 --> 00:39:42,305 You know, there is not a government, there's not an individual, there's not a company that can stop you from doing it. 375 00:39:42,305 --> 00:40:00,065 So for a lot of people globally, that's super empowering to be able to put them in control of the movement of their assets, the choice to invest in the asset class, and then the choice of how to take advantage of it. 376 00:40:00,765 --> 00:40:06,205 You know, the sort of the mobility of the asset of Bitcoin, right, is dramatically different. 377 00:40:06,205 --> 00:40:09,245 Like if you had your wealth in gold, great. 378 00:40:10,165 --> 00:40:14,705 But if you ever had to move it, that's a pain in the S if you could even do it. 379 00:40:16,005 --> 00:40:23,005 And so, you know, I think we're starting to see a combination of things that stack in terms of its value. 380 00:40:23,245 --> 00:40:32,745 And then, you know, for, you know, I have had a career in traditional finance and really understand sort of credit as well as the payment systems. 381 00:40:32,745 --> 00:40:52,405 And one of the things that for people that I talk to that are more skeptical about the value of Bitcoin, I just sort of, if you think about comparing Bitcoin, the network, which has never been compromised since it was sort of launched, to the networks and the value of Visa and MasterCard combined. 382 00:40:52,405 --> 00:41:08,045 You can get a little bit of framing that even in the worst case scenario that we value Bitcoin based on a technology and the ability to make payments, it has tremendous value in and of itself. 383 00:41:08,045 --> 00:41:23,785 But what we're seeing more globally is that the scarcity is driving up the value and the optionality that that sort of asset gives is attracting more people and more capital into the asset as a whole. 384 00:41:23,785 --> 00:41:31,225 yeah and it's definitely seeing it seems like the the amount of capital getting dumped into bitcoin 385 00:41:31,225 --> 00:41:36,905 is just astonishing these days i mean if you look at the amount that a bitcoin that's being mined 386 00:41:36,905 --> 00:41:43,225 every single day 450 uh you know just on a daily basis and the amount that's being bought i mean 387 00:41:43,225 --> 00:41:50,705 it seems like the fundamentals here are uh you know primed for you know a big a big quarter and 388 00:41:50,705 --> 00:41:56,505 big things ahead. And, you know, I think a lot of people in Bitcoin come in for the number go up or 389 00:41:56,505 --> 00:42:01,805 the money, as I like to say, some people come in for the money and then stay for the money because, 390 00:42:01,985 --> 00:42:06,265 you know, just the freedom technology of that Bitcoin kind of resonates with. 391 00:42:06,905 --> 00:42:11,905 But, you know, with your travels, I mean, I travel around and speak at a lot of these different 392 00:42:11,905 --> 00:42:17,725 conferences as well. I'm curious, what are some of the main differences you see globally between 393 00:42:17,725 --> 00:42:24,625 how people are grasping Bitcoin and, you know, how would you describe it differently and 394 00:42:24,625 --> 00:42:30,765 similarities to how people view it in the United States? So I think that in some communities, 395 00:42:30,765 --> 00:42:38,405 people are gravitating towards Bitcoin, you know, because they're more concerned about their local, 396 00:42:38,405 --> 00:42:43,645 you know, sort of their regional economy. It could be sort of, you know, inflation, 397 00:42:43,645 --> 00:42:49,805 hyperinflation in the area you're in and they're also more concerned with remittance so the movement 398 00:42:49,805 --> 00:42:55,885 of money from one country to another and so those are use cases that are i think more prevalent 399 00:42:55,885 --> 00:43:03,565 outside of the us in the us a lot of the use cases have been more around wealth building investment 400 00:43:04,605 --> 00:43:10,365 and then there's also sort of the the trading or the day trading type aspect which is prevalent 401 00:43:10,365 --> 00:43:17,325 i think globally but in some countries especially most recently in asia pacific less of a thing 402 00:43:17,325 --> 00:43:23,325 right there there's been more issue more emphasis on remittance more instances and actually 403 00:43:23,325 --> 00:43:28,765 investment because in some of the countries in asia pacific they have less confidence in their 404 00:43:28,765 --> 00:43:34,365 low in their national stock markets so they don't really have any other vehicles to take any 405 00:43:34,365 --> 00:43:42,085 income generated and putting it in sort of appreciating assets. And they're, like in China, 406 00:43:42,305 --> 00:43:48,385 overly invested in real estate. So they're looking for options to divest out of real estate and have 407 00:43:48,385 --> 00:43:54,405 sort of more diversity. And there's commonalities in other countries in sort of the Asia Pacific 408 00:43:54,405 --> 00:44:01,045 region. But I think this whole idea of like 20-year-olds and 30-year-olds struggling to 409 00:44:01,045 --> 00:44:04,485 figure out how they're going to learn about finance, how they're going to build wealth. 410 00:44:05,125 --> 00:44:13,925 And I often sort of talk about it as like for stability and resiliency, whether you're a 411 00:44:13,925 --> 00:44:18,805 business or you're an individual, you want to be making that shift from sort of labor-based income 412 00:44:18,805 --> 00:44:26,745 or revenue to asset-based income and asset-based value. And you can't do that. You can't make that 413 00:44:26,745 --> 00:44:33,305 transition if you don't have an asset class to be investing in and you don't and then you don't know 414 00:44:33,305 --> 00:44:53,007 what to be buying or how to be doing that and so I think that that that is a common transformation that people are looking to make around the world And if in fact you can be buying an asset class that you then can move it more easily you can leverage it more 415 00:44:53,007 --> 00:44:59,607 easily, you don't have to rely on sort of traditional banks and traditional systems, 416 00:45:00,107 --> 00:45:06,007 it becomes attractive to a lot of people more globally. This bull run, I'm looking for ways to 417 00:45:06,007 --> 00:45:11,487 stack Bitcoin in my sleep and mining has always caught my eye. I've partnered with the guys over 418 00:45:11,487 --> 00:45:17,767 at Simple Mining to help you do just that. I don't recommend anything that I don't use personally. 419 00:45:17,767 --> 00:45:22,887 So I've got a machine up and running with them right this second. And they've even opened the 420 00:45:22,887 --> 00:45:30,127 facility up so anyone can go and visit. They manage over 15,000 machines for 500 clients, 421 00:45:30,247 --> 00:45:35,407 handling all of the maintenance and repairs so you don't have to. And for the green candle 422 00:45:35,407 --> 00:45:40,487 listeners, they're giving an exclusive offer, all the repairs for the first year for free. 423 00:45:40,747 --> 00:45:46,567 So if you've been thinking about mining, head on over to simplemining.io slash green candle 424 00:45:46,567 --> 00:45:52,047 to get this exclusive offer and learn about the potential tax benefits that you can get 425 00:45:52,047 --> 00:45:56,827 from mining with Simple Mining. All right, enough from me. Let's get back to the show. 426 00:45:57,668 --> 00:46:03,707 Yeah, I mean, I think the narrative that we saw last cycle was kind of like bank the unbanked. 427 00:46:03,707 --> 00:46:06,227 And I think that it's interesting. 428 00:46:06,688 --> 00:46:12,827 But the global expansion is something that I think is very unique. 429 00:46:13,247 --> 00:46:19,087 I mean, we see the likes of Latin America is a good example, right? 430 00:46:19,127 --> 00:46:23,567 You see a lot of them unbanked, have very unstable currencies. 431 00:46:24,127 --> 00:46:28,487 Then I think Europe, it's somewhat of a freedom push for certain countries, 432 00:46:28,627 --> 00:46:30,987 maybe some it's similar to the US. 433 00:46:30,987 --> 00:46:35,007 but I haven't been over to Asia, but how was that experience? 434 00:46:35,307 --> 00:46:40,127 Because they always talk about MetaPlanet and obviously Hong Kong 435 00:46:40,127 --> 00:46:45,327 is kind of the two countries, one system is paired with China. 436 00:46:45,567 --> 00:46:50,188 So we've got a lot of unique views of that area of the world 437 00:46:50,188 --> 00:46:55,067 from the United States perspective, but their monetary policy 438 00:46:55,067 --> 00:47:03,467 and their differences and kind of, I guess, aversion away from Bitcoin, at least in China, 439 00:47:04,287 --> 00:47:08,347 seems like they're starting to dip their toe in Hong Kong to say the very least. So 440 00:47:08,347 --> 00:47:13,827 how would you describe the adoption that you saw when you were over in Hong Kong and just 441 00:47:13,827 --> 00:47:18,067 in that side of the world? Yeah, I definitely think it's going through 442 00:47:18,067 --> 00:47:22,867 you know, a transition in terms of greater interest and greater understanding. 443 00:47:24,567 --> 00:47:30,907 They're, you know, as we were talking about, you know, even in the US, right, they have 444 00:47:30,907 --> 00:47:36,047 a high barrier to get into real estate, both in terms of availability as well as price point. 445 00:47:36,547 --> 00:47:41,948 And there is not as much confidence in a lot of the national stock markets. And so people are 446 00:47:41,948 --> 00:47:49,887 looking for an asset class and places to put their money. And from conversations I had, there's a lot 447 00:47:49,887 --> 00:47:57,227 of sort of fiat that's sitting on the sidelines that they want to invest in other assets and 448 00:47:57,227 --> 00:48:04,347 diversify away from real estate if they even have real estate. And I think part of that context was 449 00:48:04,347 --> 00:48:12,387 driving the interest, the size of the conference, and sort of the ongoing sort of push to start to 450 00:48:12,387 --> 00:48:19,027 understand Bitcoin more and the demand for buying it. And I think that's showing up not only in 451 00:48:19,027 --> 00:48:24,107 terms of the number of people, but there were so many more exchanges and wallet companies 452 00:48:24,107 --> 00:48:29,587 and other partners within the ecosystem that were present at the conference. You could see 453 00:48:29,587 --> 00:48:31,387 from sort of South Korea. 454 00:48:32,007 --> 00:48:33,927 You know, I spoke with people from South Korea, 455 00:48:34,087 --> 00:48:37,547 from Malaysia, from Vietnam, from China, from Hong Kong. 456 00:48:37,987 --> 00:48:40,707 People traveled in from Australia, New Zealand, Japan, 457 00:48:41,148 --> 00:48:42,387 you know, and Singapore. 458 00:48:42,648 --> 00:48:44,927 And so it was an amazing experience 459 00:48:44,927 --> 00:48:47,847 just in terms of just how many people traveled 460 00:48:47,847 --> 00:48:52,347 from such distances to come be a part of the show. 461 00:48:52,527 --> 00:48:54,587 Because there is a movement, right? 462 00:48:54,648 --> 00:48:57,307 You get people in because they believe in the philosophies. 463 00:48:57,307 --> 00:49:06,688 You get people attracted because they believe in the technology and you get people interested in believing because of the value and the potential. 464 00:49:07,807 --> 00:49:17,767 And so I think it's fascinating to see how the experience of the conferences are changing because of the diversity of the people that are coming in. 465 00:49:18,188 --> 00:49:23,627 But I think that's it's exciting for one, the different points of view, but the opportunities I believe it will create. 466 00:49:23,627 --> 00:49:30,347 yeah and it's interesting too because you know i mean of course we have like the best kind of 467 00:49:30,347 --> 00:49:36,727 financial system that they line out here in the united states but um you know when you listen to 468 00:49:36,727 --> 00:49:41,807 michael saylor even on his like investor calls and and everything else he always brings up japan 469 00:49:41,807 --> 00:49:47,927 as like one of the best uh markets to invest in and they just haven't really had necessarily a big 470 00:49:47,927 --> 00:49:53,607 bond market push so he's always talked about meta planet as potentially the only company that 471 00:49:53,607 --> 00:49:58,467 could surpass strategy. Now they're so far behind. I don't know if they'll ever be able to do that, 472 00:49:58,627 --> 00:50:04,887 but it is interesting that we see that and, you know, kind of parlaying that into what we see with 473 00:50:04,887 --> 00:50:10,907 some of these different companies start to come on, you know, how is SALT looking at these types 474 00:50:10,907 --> 00:50:17,587 of strategies and, you know, maybe putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet or, you know, let's dive into 475 00:50:17,587 --> 00:50:23,407 maybe like how you guys view that and, you know, just as a company internally. Yeah, I mean, 476 00:50:23,407 --> 00:50:36,507 We're really excited by the opportunity. I think the meta planets and the strategy bees are getting a lot of the attention in terms of treasury management and building Bitcoin sort of on the balance sheet. 477 00:50:37,787 --> 00:50:45,148 And how we think we're different and excited about the opportunity to the head is that we look at ourselves and we're a Bitcoin native company. 478 00:50:45,148 --> 00:50:58,887 I tell the story a lot of times when you, if you understand McDonald's from an overall business model, right? McDonald's basically is a real estate company that has a profitable business on top of the real estate. 479 00:50:58,887 --> 00:51:04,987 and you know we're super excited looking forward is that we are a bitcoin company 480 00:51:04,987 --> 00:51:13,188 and we have a profitable business on the bitcoin that we own and we can continually sort of 481 00:51:13,188 --> 00:51:18,207 acquire more bitcoin because of the profits as well as the revenue that we're generating 482 00:51:18,207 --> 00:51:25,107 and so that's an exciting opportunity not only can we be of tremendous service and value to people 483 00:51:25,107 --> 00:51:32,307 that own, appreciate, and want to hodl Bitcoin. But we think from an investment perspective, 484 00:51:32,307 --> 00:51:38,307 SALT is a great opportunity because not only are we looking to grow revenues, grow profit, 485 00:51:38,307 --> 00:51:43,987 but we're acquiring more Bitcoin per share in terms of how we think about providing value back 486 00:51:43,987 --> 00:51:49,987 to shareholders. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. I mean, everybody always, like you said, 487 00:51:49,987 --> 00:51:57,407 it it's interesting how people look at uh bitcoin companies and i mean just in mcdonald's and in 488 00:51:57,407 --> 00:52:01,987 general right i mean if you think of mcdonald's you think oh it's a burger company but yeah you're 489 00:52:01,987 --> 00:52:07,967 you're 100 right it's actually more of a real estate company and nobody really uh unless you 490 00:52:07,967 --> 00:52:13,227 kind of dive into the business nobody really understands that so uh it's it's great that you 491 00:52:13,227 --> 00:52:18,927 guys are lining it out like that and i think that's a a really unique way of putting it now 492 00:52:18,927 --> 00:52:24,707 Now, let's get back to the book because you were talking about a lot of the education with all of that. 493 00:52:25,407 --> 00:52:27,547 Have you guys already released it, one? 494 00:52:27,648 --> 00:52:30,707 And if not, when are you guys planning on putting it all out? 495 00:52:31,107 --> 00:52:33,267 So we are in the process of writing it. 496 00:52:33,347 --> 00:52:34,267 We are doing the book. 497 00:52:34,807 --> 00:52:36,827 BTC Media will be publishing it. 498 00:52:36,827 --> 00:52:43,227 So we will build up and have a launch event at sort of BTC Las Vegas in 2026. 499 00:52:43,227 --> 00:52:56,207 In the meantime, we're continuing to collect more information, talk to people about their stories, about how Bitcoin has impacted their lives and what they're excited about and even what the challenges are. 500 00:52:56,207 --> 00:53:20,467 And so that both we can make changes at SALT, but also share more information to the ecosystem about what do we collectively have to do better to lower the barriers to entry and make it easier and more flexible to take advantage of what we clearly all see as a great asset class and one that has great potential for individuals and companies. 501 00:53:21,387 --> 00:53:23,627 Yeah, and I mean, I think it's great. 502 00:53:23,627 --> 00:53:28,707 So, you know, with this, who would you say maybe the target audience is for this? 503 00:53:29,047 --> 00:53:42,047 Because you're kind of, you know, interviewing, it sounds like a lot of these Bitcoiners talking about some of the challenges maybe that they have to living in a Bitcoinized world or, you know, maybe doing it just individually. 504 00:53:42,567 --> 00:53:43,127 Like who are you? 505 00:53:43,648 --> 00:53:46,867 Who would you guys say your target audience is for this book? 506 00:53:46,867 --> 00:53:54,547 Yeah, I mean, the audience for the book is really more the Bitcoin curious or the people that are early in their Bitcoin journey. 507 00:53:55,248 --> 00:54:15,387 We have laid it out and really sort of talking about some of the fundamental sort of philosophies and principles about how to think about, first of all, why is a Bitcoin reserve a powerful sort of concept and a powerful way of thinking about building and protecting your wealth over time? 508 00:54:15,387 --> 00:54:20,807 but then giving really practical strategies to help people understand you know how do you get 509 00:54:20,807 --> 00:54:26,507 started how do you what is what is daily cost averaging and why is it useful and valuable how 510 00:54:26,507 --> 00:54:32,387 do you think about what are the companies like river and fold and strike where you can go buy 511 00:54:32,387 --> 00:54:38,207 bitcoin to sort of accumulate it to begin with and then how do you think about living this bitcoin 512 00:54:38,207 --> 00:54:44,527 powered life right i mean we have you know the idea of converting income into bitcoin if you 513 00:54:44,527 --> 00:54:49,867 wanted to do that, you know, we're not at a place. And I think we're interesting enough moving away 514 00:54:49,867 --> 00:54:56,787 from a place where people even want to use Bitcoin as a means of exchange as much. And so if you 515 00:54:56,787 --> 00:55:03,148 don't want to do that, how do you live your life being able to sort of never sell and huddle your 516 00:55:03,148 --> 00:55:07,567 Bitcoin and sort of on the principle of, you know, stay long, stay liquid? 517 00:55:07,567 --> 00:55:15,688 oh i like that phrase stay long stay liquid um so yeah i mean it makes all the sense in the world 518 00:55:15,688 --> 00:55:22,707 and i think you know we're we're not really there in the u.s for uh the medium of exchange i mean i i 519 00:55:22,707 --> 00:55:27,107 i think you know you're 100 right people are looking at it more as the digital gold at least 520 00:55:27,107 --> 00:55:33,027 how it stands right now um you know and uh we've got a bunch of different yeah controversial takes 521 00:55:33,027 --> 00:55:39,748 let's say back and forth on that. But I think, you know, Mark Moss, I reference my talk with him 522 00:55:39,748 --> 00:55:45,027 quite a bit, because the way he lined it out was pretty interesting to me. He, he said the first 523 00:55:45,027 --> 00:55:50,707 10 years is more of, you know, there's a 50 year cycle, first 10 years, there's more, you know, 524 00:55:50,767 --> 00:55:55,367 retail adoption, second 10 years, which is what we're in right now, you kind of start to see the 525 00:55:55,367 --> 00:56:01,648 institutional, the not, the denominator, institutional adoption, third 10 years, you 526 00:56:01,648 --> 00:56:03,168 you start to see governmental adoption. 527 00:56:03,727 --> 00:56:06,168 Then fourth 10 years, you start to see, 528 00:56:06,527 --> 00:56:08,407 maybe some people starting using it 529 00:56:08,407 --> 00:56:09,407 as a medium of exchange. 530 00:56:09,567 --> 00:56:10,688 And then the last 10 years 531 00:56:10,688 --> 00:56:12,367 and this 50-year adoption cycle 532 00:56:12,367 --> 00:56:14,188 will be the unit of account. 533 00:56:14,967 --> 00:56:17,987 So I still think we got a long way to go with this. 534 00:56:18,227 --> 00:56:21,827 But last cycle, we actually did see some companies 535 00:56:21,827 --> 00:56:23,727 get involved with some governments 536 00:56:23,727 --> 00:56:24,967 and governmental adoption. 537 00:56:25,987 --> 00:56:28,168 I mean, obviously you guys don't have to disclose 538 00:56:28,168 --> 00:56:29,668 if you've had any of that, 539 00:56:29,668 --> 00:56:35,827 But, you know, what has been your take on, you know, this governmental adoption? 540 00:56:36,367 --> 00:56:39,787 And, you know, if you have, you don't have to disclose who. 541 00:56:39,987 --> 00:56:50,427 Have you had any conversations with potential governments about, you know, either obtaining or utilizing Bitcoin in some way, shape or form here going forward? 542 00:56:51,027 --> 00:56:59,168 Yeah, I mean, we, you know, we have definitely seen, right, as being publicized and even in conversations, right, 543 00:56:59,168 --> 00:57:07,387 more governments wanting to be educated on Bitcoin and starting to look at it. A lot of the Bitcoin 544 00:57:07,387 --> 00:57:15,087 ownership, especially in the US, has been sort of acquired or sort of been confiscated through 545 00:57:15,087 --> 00:57:21,248 different means. It's how it's come to be, at least from a US perspective. But what you are 546 00:57:21,248 --> 00:57:26,027 seeing is you're seeing a lot of states. In the US, I think it's up to sort of close to 20 states 547 00:57:26,027 --> 00:57:34,487 If they haven't enacted a law, they are in the process of moving towards the ability to accumulate Bitcoin at the state level. 548 00:57:34,487 --> 00:57:53,467 And so, I mean, I think the evolutionary cycle of the asset, it will take sort of states and governments and sort of, you know, institutions of that like more time to get comfortable for both acquiring it and then leveraging it. 549 00:57:53,467 --> 00:57:57,387 if you just think about sort of the amount of governance that would need to be changed 550 00:57:57,387 --> 00:58:02,787 in order to do that. But the fact that they're trying to lay the groundwork in terms of any of 551 00:58:02,787 --> 00:58:08,987 the laws or any of the sort of regulatory aspects, you know, is encouraging and they see value in it. 552 00:58:09,707 --> 00:58:15,907 And so I think that's encouraging and bullish in terms of the outlook for the amount of interest 553 00:58:15,907 --> 00:58:20,148 and then ultimately the amount of demand that there would be for Bitcoin. 554 00:58:20,148 --> 00:58:26,127 yeah and i definitely think that that demand is starting to increase and we'll potentially see 555 00:58:26,127 --> 00:58:31,087 some more governments i think i think the united states i mean this is just my theory and maybe i'm 556 00:58:31,087 --> 00:58:36,567 basing it a lot off of what my conversation with mark was but i think it's going to be a little bit 557 00:58:36,567 --> 00:58:41,787 slower of a development than than people may think so i think we need to maybe pump the brakes on the 558 00:58:41,787 --> 00:58:47,748 u.s developing it or even buying bitcoin i bet we don't see it until 28 or later at least that's 559 00:58:47,748 --> 00:58:53,807 my theory. I hope I'm wrong, but I think it's definitely an asset that people are going to 560 00:58:53,807 --> 00:58:59,987 start being, I guess, more curious about. We're seeing more and more Bitcoin bulls get into 561 00:58:59,987 --> 00:59:06,587 the Oval Office and some of these old, bigger congressional chairs and everything else. 562 00:59:06,587 --> 00:59:14,127 But we're sitting here and recording this with about three-ish months left in the year. 563 00:59:14,127 --> 00:59:19,127 So what are you looking forward to in the rest of this year, this last quarter? 564 00:59:19,127 --> 00:59:23,127 And any big things or predictions you want to throw out there for Bitcoin? 565 00:59:23,127 --> 00:59:27,127 I'd love to hear it in this last quarter. 566 00:59:27,127 --> 00:59:34,127 Well, I mean, I think we're super excited just about sort of the continued momentum and spreading the word about Bitcoin. 567 00:59:34,127 --> 00:59:37,067 We will be going both to the Bitcoin. 568 00:59:37,130 --> 00:59:41,530 the Bitcoin conference in Amsterdam, as well as the one in Mania in December, 569 00:59:42,270 --> 00:59:50,010 and sort of lots of events in between in terms of, one, engaging with people that are looking to buy, 570 00:59:50,150 --> 00:59:55,830 have Bitcoin and are looking to leverage it, but continuing to sort of really beat the educational 571 00:59:55,830 --> 01:00:01,810 drum so people understand sort of, you know, why we believe in the asset, how they can start to buy 572 01:00:01,810 --> 01:00:06,910 the asset, and why it's important, you know, to be honest, whether it's with salt or anybody else, 573 01:00:06,910 --> 01:00:09,270 like how they can borrow against it to get the leverage. 574 01:00:09,490 --> 01:00:11,770 I think, you know, as a lending community, 575 01:00:12,270 --> 01:00:15,950 it's important for us to have, one, options for customers 576 01:00:15,950 --> 01:00:19,970 and two, the trust of people that are, you know, 577 01:00:20,830 --> 01:00:22,210 borrowing against their Bitcoin. 578 01:00:22,530 --> 01:00:25,790 It is an asset that they want to hold. 579 01:00:25,910 --> 01:00:27,630 And as I said, we believe it's your Bitcoin. 580 01:00:27,810 --> 01:00:30,150 We do everything we can to make sure it stays your Bitcoin. 581 01:00:30,430 --> 01:00:33,490 And the more trust that we can bring back to the community, 582 01:00:34,030 --> 01:00:35,230 I think it's super important. 583 01:00:35,230 --> 01:00:40,030 And so we'll continue to, you know, be out talking, engaging and educating 584 01:00:40,430 --> 01:00:42,530 and sort of meeting as many people as we can. 585 01:00:43,570 --> 01:00:44,130 There we go. 586 01:00:44,130 --> 01:00:55,124 Awesome stuff And I will be at Amsterdam as well I don know if it officially been announced so uh i don know i mean maybe i jumping the roll here a little bit earlier but uh i i see you guys 587 01:00:55,124 --> 01:01:02,104 in amsterdam and uh i'm excited to maybe share a share a beer with you overseas and uh and hang 588 01:01:02,104 --> 01:01:06,204 out over there but uh you've been very generous with your time so thank you so much for coming 589 01:01:06,204 --> 01:01:10,964 on the show hunter why don't you tell people more about where uh they can find out about you 590 01:01:10,964 --> 01:01:12,544 and find out more about salt. 591 01:01:12,904 --> 01:01:15,424 Yeah, so they would love to engage with people. 592 01:01:15,584 --> 01:01:17,104 Find me on X and LinkedIn 593 01:01:17,104 --> 01:01:19,484 are sort of the two main platforms for me. 594 01:01:19,984 --> 01:01:22,484 And then for all Green Candle listeners, 595 01:01:22,484 --> 01:01:26,204 if you go to saltlending.com forward slash green dash candle, 596 01:01:26,724 --> 01:01:30,024 we have resources on there as well as special offers 597 01:01:30,024 --> 01:01:32,524 for people to take advantage of. 598 01:01:33,304 --> 01:01:34,424 Yeah, 100%. 599 01:01:34,424 --> 01:01:35,964 And that's all linked in the show notes. 600 01:01:36,044 --> 01:01:37,424 You guys know and love salt. 601 01:01:37,584 --> 01:01:39,804 And I couldn't recommend these guys more. 602 01:01:39,804 --> 01:01:41,324 So Hunter, thanks so much. 603 01:01:41,524 --> 01:01:42,204 It's been a pleasure. 604 01:01:42,344 --> 01:01:42,784 Thanks, Brendan. 605 01:01:43,084 --> 01:01:47,444 Thank you guys all for tuning in to another great episode of the State of Bitcoin podcast. 606 01:01:47,864 --> 01:01:51,804 If you found some value in this one, please hit that subscribe button and that like button 607 01:01:51,804 --> 01:01:53,204 to help send this one to the masses. 608 01:01:53,424 --> 01:01:54,724 And I've got a surprise for you guys. 609 01:01:54,844 --> 01:01:58,084 I've got two more episodes that you have the chance to watch here. 610 01:01:58,204 --> 01:02:01,064 So go ahead and click one of them and I'll see you guys all at the next one.