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What do you think that these precious metals are screaming to the Bitcoin market?

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Bitcoin down more than 22.

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I think it's definitely screaming at the thesis is.

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Saylor actually had a unique little point here when he was interviewing with Danny Knowles.

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Why don't you actually put the focus upon the people that make the investment decision?

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The companies don't determine the price their stock trades at.

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Now, you're inside all of this.

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So I'm curious, how do you view essentially the other Bitcoin treasury companies now coming in?

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Just because other people have bought Bitcoin and owned,

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no, if you have zero Bitcoin,

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you probably need Bitcoin more than anybody else.

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I think that that's going to accelerate

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as we approach 2035.

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I'd want to own way more Bitcoin than everyone else.

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It's 10 million by Q1 of 2035, is that correct?

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We'll never be able to create more than 21 million Bitcoin.

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So related to the $10 million price prediction in 2035 is

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bing bong i am back with another edition of the state of bitcoin podcast where i've got the man

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the myth the legend recurring guest now joe burnett who is now vp of bitcoin strategy over

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at strive so a lot has changed since the last time we have spoke but something very interesting

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obviously developed all through last year and made waves. And it's a Bitcoin treasury strategy.

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So we've seen so many different Bitcoin companies or now just regular companies go and buy Bitcoin.

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And Saylor actually had a unique little point here when he was interviewing with Danny Knowles

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not too long ago that Bitcoin companies shouldn't be viewed at as competing against strategy or

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anything else. They should be viewed at as competing against other companies within their

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niche. Now, you're inside all of this. So I'm curious, how do you view essentially the other

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Bitcoin treasury companies now coming in and the development of this movement and maybe a little

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bit of the rockiness that kind of came with it within this past calendar year? Yeah. Well,

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Brandon, first, thanks for having me back on. Great show. Excited to be here. And starting off,

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I guess, with the hot topic with Bitcoin treasury companies. Yeah. I mean, there's a

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of different places to start. One I can say is like, which is kind of the point of, you know,

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Sailor was making on that podcast, is are Bitcoin treasury companies competing against each other?

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And like, the answer is kind of like, I would say yes and no. You know, one way that I've thought

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about in the past is like, if you are, you know, just like an individual, like, we're not like,

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in a way, are we competing against each other to accumulate more Bitcoin for ourselves? Like,

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yes, but like, it's a positive sum game, like we can both win together and accumulate more wealth,

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real wealth in terms of like, what our Bitcoin can buy, the more people that actually buy Bitcoin,

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like money is a network good, which means as the network grows, everyone kind of wins.

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And so in that sense, you know, it's good for other companies to buy Bitcoin. And,

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And if you're, for example, Similar Scientific, initially a healthcare company, and I believe in 2021,

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before Similar adopted any sort of Bitcoin strategy whatsoever, Similar was a billion dollar healthcare business.

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Perfectly normal business, publicly traded, making a good bit of free cash flow, and business was great.

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And, you know, it's, you know, similar is still a healthcare business and they bought Bitcoin in the balance sheet. And so, and obviously Strive then acquired similar. And so it's like any company that either has free cashflow can buy Bitcoin.

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any company that is stuck or a zombie business, as Eric Simler has previously called in the past,

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that may be generating a lot of free cash flow, but doesn't know what to do. They're not growing

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very fast. They're not on the same growth rate as a big Mag7 company or NVIDIA. And they're

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looking where to deploy capital. They could do stock buybacks. They could do dividends.

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they could try to acquire another company or whatnot. If it doesn't beat the hurdle rate of

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Bitcoin, then arguably you should just buy Bitcoin. And so in that sense, I think we have a lot of

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capital allocators, whether that's an individual and you're like, I don't know where to invest that

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will beat Bitcoin. So therefore me as an individual, I Bitcoin. Or as a company, whether you're an

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existing shareholder or you're on the management team of the company, you're deciding, okay, I have

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this capital on my balance sheet that I need to allocate properly. If I can't find something that

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beats the hurdle rate of Bitcoin, I should just buy more Bitcoin. And so in that sense, it's like

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almost every company should be buying Bitcoin, just like how every individual should probably

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be buying Bitcoin. And so in that sense, I don't necessarily see them competing against each other,

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but then it's also like the Bitcoin treasury companies that are like native and focused

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almost entirely on accumulating Bitcoin. In a way, you could argue that they're all competing

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for similar pools of capital. For example, with my capital, I can buy Strategy, I can buy Shrive,

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I can buy MetaPlanet. And if I have $1, I can't have the same $1 in all three companies. I wish I

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could because that would be... I mean, I have $3, but if I only have $1, I got to pick where I put

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that $1. And so in that sense, you could argue it's kind of competing. But at the end of the day,

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I think the market size of Bitcoin is so small relative to the entire global wealth, whether you

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look at bonds, equities, money, real estate, art, whatever else. It still has such a long ways to go

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that it's more so Bitcoin and Bitcoin treasury companies

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are competing with inferior traditional stores of value.

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And so that's kind of how I would think about it.

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It's definitely an interesting topic.

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But yeah, I mean, like you brought up how the last six months or so,

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or I guess eight months or so,

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have been like very rocky for Bitcoin treasury companies.

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And that's a whole other topic that we can definitely get into.

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You know, at a high level, it's interesting

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because I think a lot of people, I think if you look back at 2025 and you saw arguably like the

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success of strategy or 2024 and 2025, you saw the success of strategies. You saw the success of a

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lot of Bitcoin treasury companies as they performed pretty well. And one way that I've

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kind of thought about it is the strategy worked so well that strategy got bid to an extreme valuation.

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You know, a lot of companies got bid to an extreme valuation.

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It created the incentive for other people to go out and build their own Bitcoin treasury company.

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And so we had this, you know, supply rush to the market because of how good of an idea amplified Bitcoin, you know, potentially is.

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And so the market, you know, rushed to provide a solution for all of this demand that we saw in 2024 and 2025.

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And then, you know, Bitcoin doesn't always just go straight up, unfortunately.

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There it's an extremely volatile asset. And so when Bitcoin is ripping, demand for amplified Bitcoin is off the charts.

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Arguably, it could be almost infinite. But when Bitcoin is not ripping and we had all this incremental supply of amplified Bitcoin come to the market, well, now no one, fewer people want to hold the amplified Bitcoin position.

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And that's part of what we saw, I think, over the last six to eight months.

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From my perspective, it's not so that the strategy is broken.

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I mean, at the end of the day, a lot of these companies are simply doing a carry trade on Bitcoin where they have a cost of capital that's lower than their expected future compound annual growth rate of Bitcoin.

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and if that's the case and it plays out over a long enough time horizon

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and you can weather the volatility,

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then arguably there's a reasonable case to be made

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that you would outperform spot Bitcoin with extremely high volatility.

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And that's what I think a lot of people are figuring out,

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that Bitcoin is incredibly volatile.

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Amplified Bitcoin is a whole other animal.

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Yeah, 100%.

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And I mean, I agree with you there.

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But one thing that I will push back on you,

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Maybe I'm speaking for the plebs out here, but I think the reason why maybe Danny asked that question or people in the Bitcoin space view as these treasury companies competing for each other, competing against each other, is essentially they see Bitcoin as this scarce asset, right?

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That it is.

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And so they think, okay, well, I want to get and accumulate as much Bitcoin as possible.

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So this is why, you know, it is a competition because there's a finite amount of resources. I mean, well, we can maybe get into like the gold and silver what's going on in those markets in a bit. But, you know, I guess from that angle, you know, I mean, you were talking about maybe investor capital, you know, maybe only having like $1, which company do I invest in.

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But when you look at it from like the Bitcoin lens in that angle, you know, do you see it in that sense? Or do you see it as just essentially, you know, companies are essentially saving their free cash flow in a better money. So it's, you know, there is no competition because you're just essentially saving in that better money. And so it's a better strategy just in general.

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Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I definitely would say I see it both ways. It's like, yes,

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of course, I'd want to own way more Bitcoin than everyone else. And as an individual and as a

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corporation, and yeah, if there's only 21 million Bitcoin, obviously, and I think the price of

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Bitcoin is going to go up significantly, then I better start stacking as much Bitcoin as I possibly

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can now while the price is potentially lower than it could be in the future. And I know that I have

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you know, a certain share of 21 million, but also in the sense, like, like we talked about,

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it's like, okay, well, as a company, we currently have our existing resources.

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We just need to deploy our existing resources into maximizing the amount of Bitcoin that we can

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generate. You know, there's not, obviously like we want to keep accumulating as much as we possibly

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can, but you know, we, you can only do so much, you know, if we could buy all 21 million Bitcoin,

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We would buy all 21 million Bitcoin, but there's just like a realistic limitations to what you can do.

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But yeah, I think it's healthy competition.

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It's similar also to like saying, okay, you as an individual, you haven't bought Bitcoin.

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Just because other people have bought Bitcoin and own 19.8 million of the 21 million Bitcoin already,

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that doesn't mean you should just give up and be like, oh, well, I can't win.

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I'm never going to get any serious amount of Bitcoin.

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No, if you have zero Bitcoin,

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you probably need Bitcoin more than anybody else.

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And so I think that's kind of the point that I would make is like,

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okay, if you're a company that has zero Bitcoin,

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just like if you're an individual that has zero Bitcoin,

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you need some Bitcoin.

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Most likely you have not been beating the hurdle rate of Bitcoin.

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And if so, you're losing money if Bitcoin is money.

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And so I don't want you to be losing money.

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And you shouldn't want to be losing money if you own a company.

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The purpose of the company should be to make money for shareholders.

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And if you're not beating the hurry of Bitcoin, you should start deploying capital into Bitcoin so you stop losing money.

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Yeah, I mean, that's all fair to say.

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Now, I want to get into another angle of this market, you know, because obviously we had Peter Schiff got his victory lap within this last year because of gold and the silver performance.

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So, you know, there has been a lot of hot topic or hot conversations around this because Bitcoiners, you know, the initial sale to Bitcoin was its digital goal, right?

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But obviously, we saw Bitcoin on a down year and we saw the precious metals absolutely rip.

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So, you know, what do you think of the market dynamics currently in Bitcoin and in the precious metals markets?

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Yeah, the gold and silver market has been fascinating to watch.

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as I'm sure a lot of people have been paying attention.

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I mean, gold up, I guess, like over 100% the last 12 months,

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silver up like, I don't know, maybe like 200 something percent over the last 12 months.

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It's pretty incredible.

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I mean, part of me is, and I think a lot of Bitcoiners are disappointed

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in the sense that, you know, this is kind of the environment that people have been expecting.

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Like the quote unquote debasement trade has, you know,

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kind of been a popular uh phrase that people have used and it's you know it's the idea that a lot of

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the typical bitcoin macro people have been talking about where uh the u.s is on kind of an unsustainable

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uh physical process you know len alden says the train has no brakes uh the feds or the government's

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running up you know absurd deficits it has the the entire nation is extremely over indebted

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and it kind of ends one or two ways.

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Either the amount of debt in the system is so large that you default

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and we go into like a Great Depression

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or more likely the money printer comes on to kind of ease the pain.

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But inflation and commodities could run hot.

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And I think that that's, you know,

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the market is starting to agree with that perspective

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that I think a lot of people in the Bitcoin space

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have been saying for a while.

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yet gold's been the one running over the last you know 14 months 13 months and bitcoin's kind of

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stalled out a little bit and you know it's interesting to look at because it's like okay i

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think on a five-year period bitcoin and gold are pretty neck and neck gold might be a little bit

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ahead at the moment but pretty close together on a four-year period i believe bitcoin's ahead on a

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three-year period, Bitcoin might be ahead. And then even like a two-year period, I think it's

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possible Bitcoin might be ahead. It's just like the one year slash, you know, 15 month period,

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like it's been kind of tough and gold has just absolutely crushed Bitcoin over that period.

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And so like in a way, I would argue that, you know, Bitcoin's kind of just like taking a breather

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from the performance that it's done over the last five, 10 years. And, you know, you also got to

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look back like there were a lot of catalysts for bitcoin uh right before the the past 15 months

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we had the etfs approved which arguably should have brought forth some demand and you know i did

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the price went up uh we had the you know trump getting elected uh the strategic bitcoin reserve

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executive order like that brought forth some demand and so like we kind of pulled forward

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possibly some demand that would have may have came later naturally just as Bitcoin became more scarce and price started running and people learned about Bitcoin superior monetary properties But yeah I mean like but gold is obviously just massively outperformed over the

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last 15 months. So it's hard to, you know, it's frustrating, but I think it's really probably

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only a matter of time until it's Bitcoin's turn again. And I think that, you know, gold being as

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high as it is, I think it's an hour around 20X larger than the total market size of Bitcoin,

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which you know and we're going to keep mining more gold at around you know one to two percent per year

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and bitcoin's already less than one percent per year monetary inflation obviously trending to zero

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over the long run you know the it there's a lot of potential upside for bitcoin here and it makes

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it a pretty compelling uh interesting opportunity yeah it is interesting because uh i think i saw

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something where it's like the fed or the central banks have increased their gold purchases about

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like one to two percent and then the price has increased by 40 percent so uh take for take that

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for what it is even though the narrative is you know that people are buying the physical gold not

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as much the etf and and watching these precious metals go out but you've had a plenty of interesting

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price predictions uh over your time in bitcoin i believe um you're won by 2035 i don't want to

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misquote you, but I believe it's 10 million by Q1 of 2035. Is that correct? Yeah, definitely. I

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think that's possible. Okay. Well, let's dive into that. Did this actually, I guess, seeing the

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precious metals affirm your prediction or has that made it change? Maybe you think it's increasing.

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What do you think that the precious metals, I guess, are screaming to the Bitcoin market?

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I think it's definitely screaming that the thesis is directionally correct. I think right now,

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the last measure that I've seen is total global wealth may be around $1,000 or $1,000 trillion.

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So $1,000 trillion. And that's allocated across bonds, equities, real estate,

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number of different asset classes. And I think we're kind of at the peak of this long-term debt

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cycle where there's a huge debt bubble. And so arguably, almost everything is overvalued at this

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point. And people are just pouring capital into all of these different things because they know

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they can't hold cash because interest rates are fairly low, or they have been in the last five

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years. It really lasts 15 years, I guess. And so all this capital is kind of just pushed into

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everything else at extreme valuations. And yet, like I talked about, we're at this phase where,

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okay, we're either going to default or print a bunch of money. And most likely it's going to be

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a volatile process kind of edging between the two, but leaning towards printing money in the long run.

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And I think that's kind of what we're seeing. And so I think that in this scenario where the money

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printer kind of continues to go burr, we'll see a rush towards scarce assets that are

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permissionless and without counterparty risk.

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And, you know, Peter Thiel had an interesting slide at a Bitcoin conference a while back

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that showed in 1980, when there was high inflation and gold was doing incredibly well, and it

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was the peak of the gold market, the total market capitalization of gold or total market

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value of all gold match the total market capitalization of all US equities. And so if

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Bitcoin could just, you know, one, reach digital gold at this point, but two, reach the parity with

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gold, that puts it around, last I checked actually, around $1.8 million per Bitcoin, which is pretty

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great. And then arguably, like I said, like you can make the argument that these scarce assets

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that can be held without counterparty risk are arguably incredibly undervalued still,

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even after the big run that gold has measured in dollar terms.

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And so I think that that's one big kind of movement that's going on,

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like pushing capital into Bitcoin, just the current macro conditions.

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But two is the whole idea of the Jeff Booth thesis of technology deflation and AI.

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I think that that is really accelerating in a big way that, you know, a lot of normal people probably aren't paying too much attention to.

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proven. I think that that's going to probably keep happening, driving the real prices of basic

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goods and services lower, measured in dollars, they probably will keep going up around the Fed's

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target CPI inflation rate. But in real terms, whether that's measured in S&P 500 or Bitcoin,

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I think the prices could start falling pretty significantly. And especially if AI and humanoid

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robots and, you know, all of these and self-driving cars and so much like really do become very

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prominent and popular by 2035, then there's going to be this rush towards, you know,

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actually scarce assets because we're creating abundance in almost everything, basic consumer

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goods. But we can't create an abundance of Bitcoin. It's one of the, it's the only thing

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that no matter how intelligent humanity becomes or how much energy gets directed into Bitcoin mining

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because of the difficulty adjustment, we'll never be able to create more than 21 million Bitcoin.

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And so, you know, related to the $10 million price prediction in 2035 is that Jeff Booth

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technology deflation thesis, I think also applies to our traditional store of value assets

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that we hold today. You know, I've been posting a chart of the annual mined production of gold

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over the last 200 years, it appears to be going in a fairly exponential manner.

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And arguably, gold is one of the most scarce, coveted assets that has preserved value pretty

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well over the last 50 years, obviously.

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And we're still figuring out via technology and more humans on the planet and so on and

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so forth to mine more gold.

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And so I think that technology deflation thesis is going to dilute the wealth that's stored

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gold, buy money, more gold. It's going to dilute the wealth that's stored in real estate because

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we're able to build more houses or build higher or even create more land. There's an island called

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Palm Jomera where tens of thousands of people now have, or residents now have beachfront property

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because we literally have been able to create land, which is pretty, you know, something that

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you can't even fathom. But that's, you know, if you decide to store wealth in something, humanity

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is going to try to figure out a way to make more of that. And I think that that's going to accelerate

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as we approach 2035. And as people hold this one quadrillion dollars worth of wealth in everything

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other than Bitcoin, I think a lot of that is going to be trying to, one, realizing that they're

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probably getting diluted and that there might be a better store of value and that Bitcoin might be

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that best store of value because no matter how smart we get or how much energy we're able to

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produce, we're not going to be able to make more than 21 million Bitcoin. Yeah, it's interesting.

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I want to get into the AI and kind of like Jeff Booth's thesis, because you had a great piece here

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written the other day. But before we get to that, I mean, you talked a little bit about,

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you know, some of the other markets and the traditional stores of value. Obviously,

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we've seen Saylor come in and talk about how Bitcoin is going to take over the $300 trillion

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bond market, the $145 trillion fixed income market. And now he's talking about the

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$200 trillion credit market. Obviously, those aren't small numbers to say the very least.

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But I'm curious because you got your foot dipped into both the TradFi world and the Bitcoin world.

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How is those two worlds essentially colliding? And how is Bitcoin being looked at as taking over

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some of these giant markets? Yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely happening. One of the things that

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I always wanted someone to build like in the Bitcoin space.

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And I still want people to build this as like a,

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is what Saylor has been talking about,

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like with digital money.

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It's, you know, this idea of, okay, we have,

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we have Bitcoin, which is arguably the super collateral,

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you know, incredibly,

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has all of these, the correct monetary properties.

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And it's liquid 24 seven, it's portable.

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it's fungible you know it's it's incredible collateral issuing and and arguably because

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it's incredible collateral people should want to borrow against it and people should want to

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lend dollars against it if you want if you happen to want to earn dollar yield which obviously

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there's you know as a bitcoiner maybe you don't want that but as uh you know the fact that there's

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300 trillion dollars worth of wealth in bonds and 100 trillion dollars worth of wealth and

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money, dollars and bank accounts and savings accounts and CDs and whatnot.

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There's a lot of demand in the world for dollar-based yield. And I think that that's kind

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of exactly one of the main innovations of Bitcoin treasury companies, being able to

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use Bitcoin as an asset on the balance sheet and then issue this idea of digital credit,

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which is effectively a dollar-based yield product. And it's in high demand because

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it's massively over-collateralized. You might have two, three, four, five times the amount

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of Bitcoin on your balance sheet compared to the dollar-based IOUs that you've issued

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via this digital credit. And it's kind of a win-win for both because it's so over-collateralized.

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And if it's all issued via digital credit and there's no maturity, then arguably it's even less riskier. But obviously there's a lot of demand for this idea of digital credit. And there's also a lot of demand for this idea of digital equity, which is like just taking the other side of that trade, borrowing the dollars and buying additional Bitcoin, the amplified Bitcoin position.

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So it kind of becomes like this win-win for both. And arguably this digital credit idea of people who want dollar-based yield with a higher return at lower risk, there's a pretty clear argument to be made that digital credit is providing that.

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And the success of strategy, obviously, in 2025, when they just started issuing digital credit, I think it was like some of the largest IPOs of the entire year were just strategies, digital credit products.

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And so I think that it's evidence that the market is really excited about this, both retail investors and both institutional investors, too.

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And I think that if we're looking at the bond market and it's $300 trillion, we're not going to wake up tomorrow and trillions of dollars are going to be in digital credit, unfortunately.

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But I think over time, as the strategy and other companies that issue digital credit continue to make the dividend payments, Bitcoin continues to just not die.

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and Bitcoin simply just continues to not guy

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and goes up slowly or goes up at rates

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that Bitcoiners might expect,

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then I think this concept of digital credit

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will become a lot more acceptable

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in the institutional world,

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maybe after like two, three year track record

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of being massively over collateralized

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and continuing to make the dividend payments.

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Then I think a lot of capital will be able to trust it.

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Just like in the early days of Bitcoin, you can argue that Bitcoin wasn't a serious thing until 2020 when Saylor bought it.

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I mean, 2017 bull market was pretty good and pretty exciting in 2013 as well.

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But 2013, Bitcoin was still arguably just a toy.

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2017 it was kind of becoming like you know niche silicon valley like uh uh like coinbase was

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obviously like really exploding at that time but it was still like uh you know for the most part

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there weren't very many serious people that you know were storing a lot of value in bitcoin

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but then sailor when in 2020 when you had a large public corporation decide to buy hundreds of

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millions of dollars of Bitcoin. That was kind of like a, I don't know, a step change in like

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the way that the world seriously looked at Bitcoin. And I think that that's kind of

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progressed in a positive manner probably every year since then.

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Yeah. And I think, you know, the way that Saylor has kind of like, I guess,

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intertwined himself with the TradFi world is really interesting. And, you know, you seemingly,

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you look around with his development of meeting with all these big giant money pools of capitals

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essentially in different countries. I mean, obviously he was just in Abu Dhabi. He's been

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spotted in Brazil. And then coincidentally, six months later, Brazil was talking about a Bitcoin

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strategic reserve. So it seems like everywhere he goes, it's essentially just making it more

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bullish for Bitcoin and more people are seeing the light. On that note, how influential do you

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think he's been when it's come to just the traditional financial world and I guess seeing

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the light of Bitcoin? I think he's been very influential. I mean, I think he's, you know,

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looking back at Bitcoin history, there's not like one person I think that, you know, other than

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Satoshi, I guess, but there's not one person that, you know, was required to make Bitcoin

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successful. I think it was Bitcoin was kind of this like code that was dropped into the world

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and in a way it's like a digital organism.

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Like you know the nodes are kind of like the cells and the humans are running the nodes and holding private keys They like you know part of the part of the organism And you know if you look back over the years like no one really knew what Bitcoin was necessarily going to become And it was going to

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become probably whatever it was going to become without any single one person deciding what it

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should be, because it's a it's this decentralized network. This is like the centralized organism

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that exist on the internet.

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And so when you're talking about Saylor,

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where would Bitcoin be without him?

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Or how influential is Saylor

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on getting TradFi to adopt Bitcoin?

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I think he's been incredibly influential.

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And I think it's interesting to think of

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where Bitcoin would be without him right now.

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And I think it'd still be fine.

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But I think he's probably been definitely

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one of the most influential people in the Bitcoin space.

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And I think he's done an incredible job

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of convincing older pools of capital

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or more institutional pools of capital

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to say, hey, this digital internet money thing,

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it's actually real.

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And there's actually a pretty valid use case for it.

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Objectively, if you look at its monetary properties,

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it's a better form of money.

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And if we're right about that,

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then this could be worth a lot of money

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and it could have an incredible future

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compound annual growth rate and you should allocate capital to it. So I think that,

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I think he knows that, right? Like he, I think in the early days, you know, he was going on like

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every single Bitcoin podcast almost to talk about it, which was, which was pretty cool. And, you

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know, he still loves making presentations and, and, and talking about Bitcoin. And so I think that,

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I think he's been a, personally, I think he's been a great voice for Bitcoin, both from like

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a retail perspective, but also from like an institutional perspective. Yeah. A hundred percent.

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I'm trying to get the nickname going, Hard Money Mike, to get that coined on.

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But I think I'm the only one really saying it.

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Maybe I'll get you on it now, Joe.

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But when we see the TradFi world just kind of intertwining,

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and then now especially with the takeoff of the gold markets,

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I think it's really interesting.

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But we brought up earlier the kind of the intertwining with AI

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and kind of that new thesis.

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Jeff Booth's been knocking the door down with this thesis of essentially AI

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and then Bitcoin essentially making everybody more efficient

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and essentially being able to live our lives a little bit more free.

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So you wrote just a great piece here the other day.

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So why don't you dive into that thesis

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and how you see AI and the Bitcoin world starting to play out.

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Last bull run, we had exchanges blow up.

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You saw FTX, Celsius, BlockFi, you name it.

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But the true power of Bitcoin is getting it off an exchange

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into cold storage. This bull run, I'm trusting Trezor, the company that's been around for over

375
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a decade and they just had a brand new release of the best hardware wallet in the game,

376
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the Trezor Safe 7. It's got the first audible secure element. No other hardware wallet has this.

377
00:34:06,662 --> 00:34:13,102
On top of it, I travel a lot, so I need an easy way to connect my Bitcoin hardware wallet to my

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laptop, phone, what have you. Therefore, it is the easiest way and has the best connectivity to

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treasure save seven and get your Bitcoin off exchanges in the easiest way possible. All right,

384
00:34:48,982 --> 00:34:54,202
enough from me. Let's get back to the show. Yeah, I mean, it's anyone that's been, I think,

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playing around with the AI tools, you know, kind of knows that this is kind of, this is a really big

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new technology that humans have unlocked, right? And part of what inspired me to write this,

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the article is you'll have people like Elon Musk, who I greatly respect, but he'll go out and say

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things like, in the future, we won't necessarily need money because AI and robotics and whatnot has

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unlocked a period of total abundance. And I think that it's hard to conceptualize what the future

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really will look like as we go into this concept of the singularity and AI just becomes a thousand

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times more intelligent than Albert Einstein. And we have billions of them working 24-7, 365 around

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the clock to hopefully make the world a better place. Like it's, it's, it gets kind of reflexive

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and, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to predict what exactly is going to happen, but assume that,

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you know, it's, it's going to be good and we're going to be able to create an abundance of almost

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everything. I still think we need to get from where we are today to here, to there, because

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we're obviously not, you know, today there's, you know, people are, people are starving, you know,

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A lot of people feel like they're struggling.

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People in America, and I imagine all around the world, feel like they can't even really afford a house, at least my generation.

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And so I think that we're very, very far, or we feel to be very, very far from this period of abundance.

400
00:36:33,802 --> 00:36:43,122
and so as we merge from where we are today to this abundance phase which could be actually

401
00:36:43,122 --> 00:36:48,702
pretty soon because ai is advancing so fast or we could be progressing towards it very soon we may

402
00:36:48,702 --> 00:36:53,402
not ever reach this idea of total abundance but we're it's hard to argue that we're not like on

403
00:36:53,402 --> 00:36:59,462
the path or trajectory toward that in a very fast manner so it relates to kind of what i was talking

404
00:36:59,462 --> 00:37:04,922
about earlier where it was like, okay, this going towards this abundance, Jeff Booth has done an

405
00:37:04,922 --> 00:37:11,762
incredible job of explaining technology deflation thesis of, okay, very easy to see how, you know,

406
00:37:11,862 --> 00:37:19,822
your basic goods and services will be, you know, very affordable and get more affordable over time,

407
00:37:19,822 --> 00:37:24,502
if not free. Like an example that I've used in the past is like when calculators first came out,

408
00:37:24,502 --> 00:37:29,022
you know, however many years ago, well, modern, somewhat modern calculators, at least,

409
00:37:29,022 --> 00:37:34,802
came out, you know, 50 years ago or so, like they were actually expensive and they'd, you know,

410
00:37:34,962 --> 00:37:40,342
they'd sit on your desk and they'd be pretty big and it may cost, you know, a few hundred bucks to

411
00:37:40,342 --> 00:37:46,362
buy one. Now it's like everyone gets a calculator on their, on their own phone and it's free. The

412
00:37:46,362 --> 00:37:51,061
app to download the calculators is free and it can actually have more, more features. It can be

413
00:37:51,061 --> 00:37:55,282
a scientific calculator, financial calculator or whatnot. They're all, they're all free. So it's

414
00:37:55,282 --> 00:38:02,382
easy to conceptualize something like that as being deflationary in a sense, but it's hard to

415
00:38:02,382 --> 00:38:08,362
conceptualize like the next phase of what I think still is happening. And it's the idea that

416
00:38:08,362 --> 00:38:16,962
our assets that we hold today are also like, you know, subject to this idea of technology deflation.

417
00:38:18,242 --> 00:38:24,081
A super obvious example, I think at this point is something like software as a service,

418
00:38:24,081 --> 00:38:31,541
where, you know, vibe coding is now becoming like the popular thing to do on X at least or Twitter.

419
00:38:32,561 --> 00:38:38,581
And arguably, if it continues, it may already be here to some extent where you can say,

420
00:38:38,982 --> 00:38:43,882
hey, my business needs a website or a CRM or whatever.

421
00:38:44,302 --> 00:38:48,122
And it builds it for you and it builds it to your exact everything that you want,

422
00:38:48,122 --> 00:38:51,422
all of your specs that you're requesting it, it can build.

423
00:38:51,422 --> 00:38:56,222
and therefore why would you go out and pay a thousand dollars a month or if you're a corporation

424
00:38:56,222 --> 00:39:00,882
five hundred thousand dollars a month or millions of dollars a year for this software as a service

425
00:39:00,882 --> 00:39:07,782
when you can tell you know an ai system to build it and it builds it and then you own it and you

426
00:39:07,782 --> 00:39:14,022
can customize it as much as or as little as you want and so it's like in that sense if you are an

427
00:39:14,022 --> 00:39:20,202
individual that's storing wealth in the nasdaq or you know big basket of technology companies

428
00:39:20,202 --> 00:39:25,162
software to service companies. Well, technology deflation isn't just affecting the calculator

429
00:39:25,162 --> 00:39:30,002
that's on your phone and making that free. Technology deflation is eating at the wealth

430
00:39:30,002 --> 00:39:36,922
where you've stored all of your wealth, which is a little bit concerning if that's where you're

431
00:39:36,922 --> 00:39:42,982
storing 100% of your wealth. And like I said earlier, it applies to gold. We're able to mine

432
00:39:42,982 --> 00:39:50,102
a lot more gold. I think last year, we maybe mined 100 times more gold humanity as a whole,

433
00:39:50,202 --> 00:39:53,862
mined 100 times more gold than we did in the year 1800.

434
00:39:54,722 --> 00:39:57,002
And so that's a 200-year period,

435
00:39:57,202 --> 00:39:59,442
but we're getting a lot more productive

436
00:39:59,442 --> 00:40:02,942
at creating even the most scarce things in the world.

437
00:40:03,782 --> 00:40:06,541
And I think that we have all this wealth in these,

438
00:40:06,862 --> 00:40:08,862
what we think are scarce things in the world,

439
00:40:09,282 --> 00:40:13,081
software service companies, gold, real estate or whatnot.

440
00:40:13,662 --> 00:40:16,362
But as AI advances faster and faster

441
00:40:16,362 --> 00:40:19,302
and we head towards this idea of total abundance,

442
00:40:19,302 --> 00:40:23,422
which Elon Musk and others in the AI space think we're going towards,

443
00:40:24,061 --> 00:40:28,882
well, everything becomes abundant except for a monetary asset like Bitcoin

444
00:40:28,882 --> 00:40:30,581
because you can't make more of it.

445
00:40:31,102 --> 00:40:33,962
So in a way, if you take it out to the extreme,

446
00:40:34,662 --> 00:40:38,262
it's like it's almost hard to keep wealth outside of Bitcoin

447
00:40:38,262 --> 00:40:41,122
as we head out to this period of total abundance

448
00:40:41,122 --> 00:40:44,081
because if you keep wealth in a software as a service company

449
00:40:44,081 --> 00:40:47,502
and a software as a service company is worth a billion dollars,

450
00:40:47,502 --> 00:40:51,962
well, people are going to be, you know, vibe coding your software as a service company and

451
00:40:51,962 --> 00:40:57,102
undercutting your margins and trying to suck that $1 billion of market cap that you have in your

452
00:40:57,102 --> 00:41:01,822
software as a service company into some of their company. And they don't care if they get, you know,

453
00:41:01,822 --> 00:41:07,282
a hundred million dollars, right? They just want to, you know, keep sucking wealth out of what

454
00:41:07,282 --> 00:41:11,982
humanity has already stored wealth in. And so the more wealth we store in all these other assets,

455
00:41:11,982 --> 00:41:19,822
the greater incentive it is for AI and robotics and other humans to dilute that wealth and to try

456
00:41:19,822 --> 00:41:25,262
to take it and to build a better service or more efficient service. And so in that sense, it's like,

457
00:41:25,362 --> 00:41:29,442
okay, we have all this wealth outside of Bitcoin. The wealth really needs to be in Bitcoin because

458
00:41:29,442 --> 00:41:36,342
that's the one place where we can't dilute any of the wealth. Yeah. It's interesting that you said

459
00:41:36,342 --> 00:41:42,081
all that be about the SaaS companies. Because I've been after ever since I discovered vibe coding,

460
00:41:42,081 --> 00:41:47,541
I've been telling people that I think SaaS is just dead. Because exactly like you lined out here,

461
00:41:47,581 --> 00:41:54,581
I mean, I made a dashboard to do some of like my social media analytics in an afternoon. So I mean,

462
00:41:54,581 --> 00:41:59,242
like, you know, ordering something like that, or getting somebody to do that used to take like

463
00:41:59,242 --> 00:42:04,842
months. And now, you know, it takes just a few hours to build things like that. And like you said,

464
00:42:04,842 --> 00:42:07,822
They could be essentially customized for everything.

465
00:42:08,021 --> 00:42:10,581
So I think it's a really interesting development.

466
00:42:11,502 --> 00:42:13,902
But the Bitcoin and the scarce asset,

467
00:42:14,802 --> 00:42:18,342
I guess let's dive into the Elon Musk thesis

468
00:42:18,342 --> 00:42:21,422
because, I mean, obviously I've heard him say that,

469
00:42:21,521 --> 00:42:23,902
but I'm curious kind of how you think that world looks

470
00:42:23,902 --> 00:42:27,521
because I see a couple of different ways

471
00:42:27,521 --> 00:42:31,061
where essentially we've seen Bitcoin,

472
00:42:31,622 --> 00:42:34,702
I guess, develop a lot over time.

473
00:42:34,842 --> 00:42:43,061
And part of that development has been intertwining with people, how they're saving and everything else.

474
00:42:43,061 --> 00:42:52,142
But having a money where they're having a world where there's no money that just everybody says if we were on the hard money standard, we would be in this utopia and we'd have flying cars.

475
00:42:52,742 --> 00:42:59,521
So how do you think that this world playing out would be with the development of AI and essentially no money?

476
00:43:01,182 --> 00:43:01,402
Yeah.

477
00:43:01,402 --> 00:43:05,502
Yeah, so it's like, it's such an interesting question.

478
00:43:05,642 --> 00:43:11,061
I mean, like I said, I think like if you get to the point where we have trillions of Albert

479
00:43:11,061 --> 00:43:16,282
Einsteins and they're all working 24-7, it's hard to predict what's going to happen.

480
00:43:17,061 --> 00:43:20,002
And so I think we're heading towards that world.

481
00:43:20,642 --> 00:43:25,182
And so maybe Elon, you know, you could make the argument that Elon is right in the sense

482
00:43:25,182 --> 00:43:28,242
that like maybe very far into the future.

483
00:43:28,242 --> 00:43:34,021
this bull run i'm looking for ways to stack bitcoin in my sleep and mining has always caught

484
00:43:34,021 --> 00:43:40,802
my eye i've partnered with the guys over at simple mining to help you do just that i don't recommend

485
00:43:40,802 --> 00:43:45,982
anything that i don't use personally so i've got a machine up and running with them right this

486
00:43:45,982 --> 00:43:53,242
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487
00:43:53,242 --> 00:43:58,782
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488
00:43:59,202 --> 00:44:02,302
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489
00:44:02,682 --> 00:44:07,482
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490
00:44:07,482 --> 00:44:13,162
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491
00:44:13,162 --> 00:44:18,902
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492
00:44:19,162 --> 00:44:21,702
All right, enough from me. Let's get back to the show.

493
00:44:23,242 --> 00:44:29,142
Maybe like money is not a concept, but I think we are not there yet.

494
00:44:29,142 --> 00:44:34,302
And I think we're pretty far away from that, unfortunately or fortunately.

495
00:44:34,462 --> 00:44:35,322
I'm not really sure.

496
00:44:35,622 --> 00:44:42,462
But like in the sense of like the calculator app example, it's like, well, how much money or how much Bitcoin do you need to buy a calculator app?

497
00:44:42,561 --> 00:44:43,802
It's like, it's free.

498
00:44:43,942 --> 00:44:45,642
I mean, you just download the app.

499
00:44:45,642 --> 00:44:57,802
And so money is kind of like in certain things, money is kind of already become irrelevant because the winner was the consumer that receives something for free or Google.

500
00:44:58,081 --> 00:45:01,602
Right. I mean, like as long as you have an internet, like you don't pay for Google, it's free.

501
00:45:01,862 --> 00:45:11,302
You indirectly may be paid for ads through ads, but like, you know, you still a lot of people still use Google or for chat GPT and everything else.

502
00:45:11,302 --> 00:45:17,342
you still use Google. But again, I think that we're heading towards this idea of abundance.

503
00:45:17,342 --> 00:45:22,342
So I don't even know if we'll ever make it to where money itself is not relevant.

504
00:45:24,282 --> 00:45:31,081
And I think as we go from where we are today towards that potential state, which may not ever

505
00:45:31,081 --> 00:45:35,802
exist, because there might always be things that are obviously artificially scarce. Yes,

506
00:45:35,802 --> 00:45:41,602
at palm jomero we created additional beachfront property but for whatever reason if you want to

507
00:45:41,602 --> 00:45:47,202
live on miami beach at the house right next to michael saylor you know you you that's there's

508
00:45:47,202 --> 00:45:52,002
only one of those or there's only two of those i guess because he's got two neighbors but um

509
00:45:52,002 --> 00:45:57,002
like there will there will like humans will probably always create some form of artificial

510
00:45:57,002 --> 00:46:03,382
scarcity and i think bitcoin is obviously like the best form of of scarcity that's digital and

511
00:46:03,382 --> 00:46:13,142
and is a good form of money, which is important. But as we go towards this idea of abundance,

512
00:46:13,802 --> 00:46:19,041
we'll still have some form of scarcity. I mean, right now, common scarcity is obviously

513
00:46:19,041 --> 00:46:24,982
real estate for younger people. People want to be able to afford a relatively normal house.

514
00:46:25,482 --> 00:46:38,823
That is still scarce And so I think Bitcoin as a tool is going to help people unlock that future scarcity that they may seem today like oh I never be able to buy this or afford this

515
00:46:38,823 --> 00:46:42,523
Bitcoin is a better savings tool than everything else that exists.

516
00:46:43,202 --> 00:46:56,242
And so therefore, if you say Bitcoin and AI and free markets just continue functioning, it'll create technology deflation in those things that you might want or something very close to what you might want.

517
00:46:56,242 --> 00:47:02,742
And that'll like help you, you know, reach those goals. So yeah, I think like my, I don't like,

518
00:47:03,282 --> 00:47:08,623
I think Elon like jumps a bunch of steps when he, when he arrives to, oh, we won't need money in a,

519
00:47:08,623 --> 00:47:14,683
in a, you know, in a certain amount of time. I think, you know, I think that we got to get to

520
00:47:14,683 --> 00:47:19,663
that point first. And I think Bitcoin is a very useful tool to help us get to help you as an

521
00:47:19,663 --> 00:47:23,563
individual or a corporation get to that point because arguably it's the world's best savings

522
00:47:23,563 --> 00:47:27,722
technology. And maybe we never reached that point because there were all, there may always be

523
00:47:27,722 --> 00:47:33,722
artificial scarcity. Now you brought up real estate, obviously like your, our generation is,

524
00:47:33,782 --> 00:47:38,742
is looking at it as a, as a different, as a different way, right? I mean, essentially we've

525
00:47:38,742 --> 00:47:44,462
seen a trad fight come in and financialize housing, which has done a disservice to the younger

526
00:47:44,462 --> 00:47:50,982
generations. And I think the average age of like a first time home buyer now is closing close,

527
00:47:50,982 --> 00:47:57,023
getting closer and closer to 40. So it seems like the American dream is somewhat dead. How do you

528
00:47:57,023 --> 00:48:01,962
see, or I guess the traditional American dream, as we know it, the white picket fence in the house

529
00:48:01,962 --> 00:48:08,002
and all of that. How do you see real estate, I guess, playing out here with the evolution of

530
00:48:08,002 --> 00:48:12,563
Bitcoin? You know, obviously there's a bunch of new products coming out that you can combine

531
00:48:12,563 --> 00:48:19,282
the equity with some Bitcoin, some different tactics that way. But how do you see, I guess,

532
00:48:19,282 --> 00:48:24,643
just overall the real estate market as it is right now and projecting a little bit further here?

533
00:48:26,363 --> 00:48:30,082
Yeah, it's an interesting question because you make a great point of like,

534
00:48:30,623 --> 00:48:38,143
okay, real estate in the US and around the world has been financialized to a large extent.

535
00:48:38,143 --> 00:48:42,883
And I would argue like what that means is like, it's been monetized. Our money is broken.

536
00:48:43,782 --> 00:48:49,043
Most people, whether you think about, you frame it in that way or you don't frame it that way,

537
00:48:49,282 --> 00:48:52,222
it's kind of what has happened where you just,

538
00:48:52,403 --> 00:48:55,823
you pour your wealth into other assets that are not dollars

539
00:48:55,823 --> 00:48:58,702
because you know dollars are going to be debased over time.

540
00:48:58,802 --> 00:49:02,383
And so real estate has obviously been a very popular way to store wealth.

541
00:49:02,883 --> 00:49:04,383
And I think that creates, you know,

542
00:49:04,442 --> 00:49:07,183
obviously a lot of negative externalities, right?

543
00:49:07,722 --> 00:49:12,063
One, you're saving in wealth, you're saving in real estate,

544
00:49:12,063 --> 00:49:16,343
driving up the price for people that actually like need the real estate for,

545
00:49:16,343 --> 00:49:22,843
you know, for their house to live in or to start a family or whatnot. And then not only that,

546
00:49:23,183 --> 00:49:28,762
I would argue that if we had a better money, because everyone has pushed up the price of

547
00:49:28,762 --> 00:49:34,282
real estate so high that you're buying real estate at high valuations currently,

548
00:49:35,282 --> 00:49:40,702
if we had a better money, you could probably, which is Bitcoin, I would argue you could probably

549
00:49:40,702 --> 00:49:47,802
just buy Bitcoin instead of buying the house. And in that way, you have a better long-term total

550
00:49:47,802 --> 00:49:54,722
return than buying real estate at a price that doesn't make any sense. And the prices of housing

551
00:49:54,722 --> 00:49:59,403
should go down because less people are incentivized to buy housing if they know that there's a

552
00:49:59,403 --> 00:50:05,683
superior alternative to store wealth in Bitcoin. And then housing gets more affordable. So I think

553
00:50:05,683 --> 00:50:11,063
obviously that won't happen overnight. A lot of people will probably continue

554
00:50:11,063 --> 00:50:19,802
holding houses for a number of different reasons. But I do think that over time,

555
00:50:19,802 --> 00:50:25,923
as the AI thesis plays out and technology advances and we build more houses, we build

556
00:50:25,923 --> 00:50:31,482
more apartment complexes, and Bitcoin continues functioning and simply doesn't break,

557
00:50:31,482 --> 00:50:38,442
it'll become more clear over time that hoarding real estate is not you know it's not outperforming

558
00:50:38,442 --> 00:50:43,683
bitcoin it's not it's not beating the hurdle rate of bitcoin and as people begin to recognize that

559
00:50:43,683 --> 00:50:50,262
okay like i've been using the dollar as my unit of account for a long time i bought this house for

560
00:50:50,262 --> 00:50:55,802
fifty thousand dollars decades ago now it's worth five hundred thousand dollars you know five years

561
00:50:55,802 --> 00:51:03,143
maybe it's worth a million dollars like maybe like the house didn't go up 20x in decades maybe

562
00:51:03,143 --> 00:51:06,982
it's like the dollar just went down and i think people are going to start to realize like maybe

563
00:51:06,982 --> 00:51:11,942
there's a better form of money and then they'll realize like wait like i bought this you know i

564
00:51:11,942 --> 00:51:19,623
had this house in 2026 and it was worth you know six bitcoin seven bitcoin and now it's worth one

565
00:51:19,623 --> 00:51:25,222
Bitcoin. Like I lost, you know, six, five to six Bitcoin over the last five years because

566
00:51:25,222 --> 00:51:30,462
the house is, you know, Bitcoin one is a better form of money. It's being, and it's actively being

567
00:51:30,462 --> 00:51:35,343
adopted right now. Two, it's getting more scarce over time. And three, like, you know, the house

568
00:51:35,343 --> 00:51:39,722
breaks, like you got to update things. You got to pay property taxes. You got to do maintenance.

569
00:51:39,962 --> 00:51:44,183
Like it's, and, you know, and we're building more houses. Like we're diluting, you know,

570
00:51:44,183 --> 00:51:47,403
your share of total wealth that's stored in real estate.

571
00:51:47,942 --> 00:51:52,703
One of my absolute favorite things about Bitcoin is meeting all of you in person.

572
00:51:52,922 --> 00:51:57,802
So mark your calendars for February 28th and come down to where I've called home for the

573
00:51:57,802 --> 00:52:00,002
past eight years, Tampa, Florida.

574
00:52:00,683 --> 00:52:03,982
The Bitcoin Bay Foundation is putting on the sound money soiree.

575
00:52:04,102 --> 00:52:05,343
It's the third annual.

576
00:52:05,742 --> 00:52:10,023
It's a night of Bitcoin, poker, an open bar, and a silent auction.

577
00:52:10,023 --> 00:52:16,482
All support will go to Bitcoin Bay, a nonprofit that is creating a circular economy down in Tampa Bay, Florida.

578
00:52:16,942 --> 00:52:19,383
They're doing absolutely great things.

579
00:52:19,502 --> 00:52:23,462
And it's the Bitcoin community that I've called home for such a long time.

580
00:52:23,563 --> 00:52:25,863
And these guys are absolutely crushing it.

581
00:52:25,942 --> 00:52:28,143
So please do anything you can to support.

582
00:52:28,543 --> 00:52:29,383
Buy your tickets today.

583
00:52:29,462 --> 00:52:34,363
You can use promo code GREENCANDLE to get 10% off your Sound Money Soiree tickets.

584
00:52:34,502 --> 00:52:36,222
So do you know anything about Bitcoin?

585
00:52:36,543 --> 00:52:36,863
No.

586
00:52:36,863 --> 00:52:39,343
You guys can come down and see this ugly mug.

587
00:52:39,742 --> 00:52:41,422
Come boogie on the dance floor, shake it.

588
00:52:41,543 --> 00:52:44,802
And now that Bitcoin's over 100K, you can do it all with your girlfriends.

589
00:52:45,742 --> 00:52:47,722
All right, on that for me, let's get back to the show.

590
00:52:52,462 --> 00:52:56,242
So I think it's going to be probably like a fairly gradual process.

591
00:52:56,643 --> 00:52:59,482
And I think real estate will probably get more affordable,

592
00:52:59,823 --> 00:53:04,063
certainly measured in Bitcoin, obviously, if I had to guess.

593
00:53:04,063 --> 00:53:08,582
and I think that that's going to be good for the younger generation that saves in Bitcoin

594
00:53:08,582 --> 00:53:10,843
or anyone that saves in Bitcoin

595
00:53:10,843 --> 00:53:16,242
and I think that the people that recognize that Bitcoin is a better form of money

596
00:53:16,242 --> 00:53:20,302
will perform, will have better financial returns

597
00:53:20,302 --> 00:53:23,722
by not storing a bunch of wealth in houses

598
00:53:23,722 --> 00:53:25,302
and saving Bitcoin instead

599
00:53:25,302 --> 00:53:29,663
and like you said, you pointed out, there's products now that make it easy for

600
00:53:29,663 --> 00:53:35,183
people to kind of like extract some equity that they have in their house and put it into Bitcoin,

601
00:53:35,282 --> 00:53:40,903
which I think is great. But, you know, arguably if, you know, it might still be better to just

602
00:53:40,903 --> 00:53:45,762
sell the house and buy Bitcoin. But again, there might not be enough people that would be willing

603
00:53:45,762 --> 00:53:50,722
to do that. So it's going to be interesting. Yeah, it's definitely like one of those areas

604
00:53:50,722 --> 00:53:55,843
where everybody kind of wants the security, right? Having something that they quote unquote own.

605
00:53:55,843 --> 00:54:01,802
But, you know, when obviously as Bitcoiners, we know when you break it down, the property taxes, all of that, do you really own it?

606
00:54:01,863 --> 00:54:16,683
But I think the one interesting part of real estate still is the amount of leverage, you know, the amount that at least in the United States, you can put just like three and a half percent down on your first time house and everything like that.

607
00:54:16,683 --> 00:54:20,203
But we are seeing banks start to get into the Bitcoin space.

608
00:54:21,102 --> 00:54:25,582
So I guess tell me tell me your overall view on the banking system.

609
00:54:25,582 --> 00:54:27,663
like how they're starting to get into Bitcoin?

610
00:54:27,883 --> 00:54:31,043
Do you think it's maybe out of necessity?

611
00:54:31,043 --> 00:54:34,422
They see, you know, more people going towards Bitcoin

612
00:54:34,422 --> 00:54:35,502
and getting out of banks,

613
00:54:35,502 --> 00:54:39,302
or do you see it as they see it maybe as a way to make money?

614
00:54:39,422 --> 00:54:41,942
Like how do you view, or how do you think that the banks

615
00:54:41,942 --> 00:54:45,043
and the traditional banking system looks at Bitcoin right now?

616
00:54:46,323 --> 00:54:48,762
Yeah, I mean, this is an interesting topic

617
00:54:48,762 --> 00:54:51,242
with like probably a number of different avenues

618
00:54:51,242 --> 00:54:53,203
because it's to talk about,

619
00:54:53,203 --> 00:54:55,143
because you have banks,

620
00:54:55,563 --> 00:54:56,203
one, like how,

621
00:54:56,742 --> 00:54:57,802
get into Bitcoin and how so.

622
00:54:57,883 --> 00:54:58,802
There's like a number of ways

623
00:54:58,802 --> 00:55:00,482
that they could get into Bitcoin

624
00:55:00,482 --> 00:55:01,502
or Bitcoin adjacent things.

625
00:55:01,543 --> 00:55:03,323
And I think like the current market structure bill

626
00:55:03,323 --> 00:55:04,623
that's, I guess, being debated

627
00:55:04,623 --> 00:55:06,183
in the United States right now

628
00:55:06,183 --> 00:55:08,302
is related to stable coins.

629
00:55:08,302 --> 00:55:11,623
Should stable coins be able to provide yield?

630
00:55:11,883 --> 00:55:14,002
Obviously, the existing banking system

631
00:55:14,002 --> 00:55:16,442
is kind of advocating against that

632
00:55:16,442 --> 00:55:19,203
because if stable coins provide yield

633
00:55:19,203 --> 00:55:20,703
and they hold T-bills

634
00:55:20,703 --> 00:55:22,722
and they pay the highest interest rate

635
00:55:22,722 --> 00:55:26,722
compared to all the deposits on their bank accounts

636
00:55:26,722 --> 00:55:28,663
that are currently outstanding,

637
00:55:28,663 --> 00:55:31,082
and stablecoins are arguably better

638
00:55:31,082 --> 00:55:32,343
from like a payments perspective,

639
00:55:33,002 --> 00:55:36,302
then it makes a lot of sense to just be like,

640
00:55:36,422 --> 00:55:39,502
okay, why would anyone have a bank account

641
00:55:39,502 --> 00:55:40,863
if you can have stablecoin,

642
00:55:40,962 --> 00:55:42,502
which is more portable,

643
00:55:43,043 --> 00:55:44,942
pays a higher yield than a bank account,

644
00:55:45,222 --> 00:55:47,802
probably has less counterparties involved,

645
00:55:47,962 --> 00:55:49,643
honestly, as well.

646
00:55:50,582 --> 00:55:52,462
So that's like one thing that's kind of interesting too,

647
00:55:52,462 --> 00:55:57,762
is like, okay, are banks going to start custody in Bitcoin? I would argue that they, you know,

648
00:55:57,762 --> 00:56:03,383
some, some, as far as I know, like are working on things like that. Uh, and it seems like that would

649
00:56:03,383 --> 00:56:09,742
be, uh, inevitable that they're going to try to do something like that. And then the third thing

650
00:56:09,742 --> 00:56:17,422
is will banks, uh, you know, so like the, the business model of a bank is you have your

651
00:56:17,422 --> 00:56:24,222
liabilities, which are customer deposits. If you have $100,000 in your account, the bank owes you

652
00:56:24,222 --> 00:56:31,123
$100,000. But the bank has assets to obviously backing that $100,000. And it's not usually cash.

653
00:56:31,262 --> 00:56:37,563
It's normally credit. It's normally T-bills. It's normally your neighbor's mortgage. It could be

654
00:56:37,563 --> 00:56:44,063
your mortgage. It could be corporate debt. It could be in the future, digital credit, which I think is

655
00:56:44,063 --> 00:56:50,623
also kind of interesting. It's like, okay, well, banks buy credit and they back your deposits with

656
00:56:50,623 --> 00:56:56,482
that credit. Bitcoin treasury companies are issuing digital credit and they hold a lot of Bitcoin on

657
00:56:56,482 --> 00:57:02,002
their balance sheet. Arguably, digital credit, if you're still into dollar yield, which banks

658
00:57:02,002 --> 00:57:08,903
obviously are very much so, banks arguably could be some of the biggest buyers of digital credit.

659
00:57:08,903 --> 00:57:25,823
And I think that's why Saylor gave that presentation in Abu Dhabi, trying to encourage someone to go out there and build digital money, basically a bank that issues dollar deposits backed by digital credit rather than T-bills or mortgages or whatnot.

660
00:57:25,823 --> 00:57:34,703
So I think, yeah, like this is where probably the banking system is going to be colliding with Bitcoin in a way.

661
00:57:34,823 --> 00:57:44,843
And some, you know, some banks are and are probably going to be resisting it, realizing that this is a huge disruption to their business.

662
00:57:44,843 --> 00:58:03,502
But I also think some are probably going to realize that the creative destruction is inevitable and they should be, you know, for thinking and they could benefit from it by attracting a lot of Bitcoin as deposits or, you know, juicing their returns by selling mortgages and buying digital credit.

663
00:58:04,102 --> 00:58:06,843
So it's going to be very interesting to see how it plays out.

664
00:58:06,843 --> 00:58:13,762
You know, some jurisdictions probably are going to be restrictive and worried about banks getting involved with Bitcoin.

665
00:58:13,762 --> 00:58:20,082
and then other jurisdictions are going to be encouraging probably banks to get involved with

666
00:58:20,082 --> 00:58:27,663
Bitcoin. And I hope the United States decides to be on the side of being more progressive towards

667
00:58:27,663 --> 00:58:36,302
Bitcoin and encouraging banks to not take absurd risk, but to open their products and services and

668
00:58:36,302 --> 00:58:41,683
their balance sheet to Bitcoin and Bitcoin adjacent products. Yeah. And it seems like,

669
00:58:41,683 --> 00:58:51,643
I mean, there's obviously been the rumors floating around of like the coordinated attack of MSTR on JP Morgan and kind of the stablecoin issue with banks.

670
00:58:52,863 --> 00:59:06,403
So I guess, do you think that, I guess, does it worry you maybe in the short term that when these banks start to come in and I guess financialize or attempt to financialize Bitcoin, that we're going to see like more volatile times?

671
00:59:06,403 --> 00:59:16,023
Like, do you think that that was partially the reason why we saw maybe a negative 25 when it came to the Bitcoin price action, even though we had so much bullish news?

672
00:59:16,282 --> 00:59:24,543
Like, do you think it's going to be, I guess, more of a the Wild West type of market just because like these big money players are starting to come in?

673
00:59:25,802 --> 00:59:26,742
Yeah, it's a really good question.

674
00:59:26,742 --> 00:59:37,582
I mean, one of the probably unpopular opinions that I have in general is that people say Bitcoin's volatility is declining, which is historically very accurate.

675
00:59:38,643 --> 00:59:50,502
However, the case for future volatility to expand is there's a lot of different cases to be made for that to happen, whether that's the upside or to the downside in the short term.

676
00:59:50,502 --> 01:00:00,782
And I think that, yeah, like there could be, you know, fights between the banking industry and, quote unquote, the Bitcoin industry, you know, certain parts of the banking industry.

677
01:00:01,782 --> 01:00:06,922
And that could be, you know, have a negative short term impact on Bitcoin.

678
01:00:07,163 --> 01:00:11,403
There's also a catalyst for that to be a very positive on Bitcoin.

679
01:00:11,623 --> 01:00:12,922
It's hard to really tell.

680
01:00:13,663 --> 01:00:18,722
But yeah, I definitely think that more volatility could certainly be on the table.

681
01:00:18,722 --> 01:00:23,242
but it's hard to know if that's going to be the case for sure.

682
01:00:23,863 --> 01:00:26,683
And I'm not one to bet on short-term price movements

683
01:00:26,683 --> 01:00:28,722
because I think it's almost unpredictable

684
01:00:28,722 --> 01:00:32,442
to figure out exactly how the banking system

685
01:00:32,442 --> 01:00:34,482
and how specific people in the banking system

686
01:00:34,482 --> 01:00:37,302
are going to react to Bitcoin.

687
01:00:38,242 --> 01:00:39,742
Yeah, I mean, that's all fair to say.

688
01:00:39,823 --> 01:00:43,043
It is kind of a variable, I guess.

689
01:00:43,043 --> 01:00:44,843
I mean, when humans get involved,

690
01:00:44,982 --> 01:00:47,823
Jamie Dimon and Larry Fink, all of these guys,

691
01:00:47,823 --> 01:00:51,683
when we see them start to backpedal seemingly on Bitcoin.

692
01:00:52,343 --> 01:00:54,323
It seems like they're going to start to embrace it,

693
01:00:54,422 --> 01:00:56,742
but I guess time will tell and we shall see.

694
01:00:57,102 --> 01:00:59,082
But Joe, you've been very generous with your time.

695
01:00:59,442 --> 01:01:01,742
So why don't you tell everybody what you're working on

696
01:01:01,742 --> 01:01:05,082
and where they can find out more of your great content.

697
01:01:06,143 --> 01:01:06,302
Yeah.

698
01:01:06,683 --> 01:01:08,543
Well, thanks, Brandon, for having me on.

699
01:01:08,543 --> 01:01:10,102
This is an awesome conversation.

700
01:01:10,383 --> 01:01:12,262
Always enjoy your podcast.

701
01:01:13,422 --> 01:01:16,143
Yeah, I mean, obviously I work at Strive right now,

702
01:01:16,203 --> 01:01:17,663
so if you want to learn more about Strive,

703
01:01:17,663 --> 01:01:22,502
You can find Strive on Twitter or search us on Google.

704
01:01:24,203 --> 01:01:27,602
You can find me on Twitter and YouTube as well.

705
01:01:28,123 --> 01:01:30,683
Just type in Joe Burnett Bitcoin and it should pop up.

706
01:01:30,982 --> 01:01:32,502
But thanks for having me on. This was fun.

707
01:01:32,823 --> 01:01:34,403
Yeah, man. I'll put all that in the show notes.

708
01:01:34,502 --> 01:01:37,942
Everybody go check out Joe and his great content and read his latest article as well.

709
01:01:38,043 --> 01:01:40,222
It's got great insights on Bitcoin and AI.

710
01:01:40,543 --> 01:01:41,903
And Joe, thanks so much.

711
01:01:42,663 --> 01:01:43,302
Thanks for having me.

712
01:01:43,302 --> 01:01:47,903
Thank you guys all for tuning in to another great episode of the State of Bitcoin podcast.

713
01:01:48,323 --> 01:01:53,663
If you found some value in this one, please hit that subscribe button and that like button to help send this one to the masses.

714
01:01:53,883 --> 01:01:55,163
And I've got a surprise for you guys.

715
01:01:55,302 --> 01:01:58,523
I've got two more episodes that you have the chance to watch here.

716
01:01:58,663 --> 01:02:01,523
So go ahead and click one of them and I'll see you guys all at the next one.