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If you own an ETF, for example, there's a lot of counterpart to risk where there's companies holding it for you again.

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Those companies can fail, right?

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My mom, for example, would trust her bank over me maybe holding a Bitcoin for her just because she's not aware.

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The Czech National Bank was talking about, you know, looking into Bitcoin.

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And now we're having banks in the United States like JP Morgan, Jamie Dimon, really starting to almost like bend the knee to Bitcoin.

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If you're a hacker, are you trying to get to this one little individual fish in the pond?

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You don't want any bad people to know, you know, how much you have, where you have it,

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how you have it stored. And if any of those three pillars is missing or crumbling,

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then the whole thing's...

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What's up guys, before we get started, I've realized that over 50,000 of you guys keep

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coming back for every single episode. And while I'm eternally grateful for you guys to keep coming

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back. I've realized that 79% of you guys are not subscribed. So I have one small ask before we get

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started. If you guys could hit that subscribe button and hit that like button to help send

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this interview and many more to the stratosphere, it would be greatly appreciated. All right,

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enough from me. Let's get into the show. All right. Bing bong. I am back with another edition

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of the State of Bitcoin podcast where I've got the man, the myth, the legend, Matei,

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CEO of Treasure, but there is a lot of controversy going on right now about the Bitcoin ETFs.

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Obviously, you're a big proponent of self-custody and everything that you do here at Treasure.

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So I'm curious what you think of the potential of Coinbase kind of having the centralization

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of a lot of these ETFs and the potential of them selling paper Bitcoin.

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So let me start by going back to the basics. So Bitcoin started as, you know, peer to peer,

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and it's still obviously a peer to peer asset. And all its properties are made to be, you know,

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peer to peer, basically, user to user, person to person, etc. It's so cool that, of course,

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companies, corporations are joining Bitcoin. That's, I think, good for,

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I mean, there are some cons and pros, but like, of course, there are some benefits of,

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of having sound money behind corporations as well.

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But of course, as you hinted,

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we are a self-custody company.

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So of course we would advocate for users

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to store their own private keys in a self-custody way

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because we simply believe that's the better way

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to hold Bitcoin.

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Let me give maybe a couple of reasons why that is.

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Well, there's this famous saying,

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not your keys, not your coins, right?

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And we see it in many different scenarios

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where for example, exchange get hacked,

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you know, and you lose your Bitcoin,

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which you thought you own,

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but there is a third party that actually stores it for you.

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And if they lose it, then well,

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you lose the Bitcoin yourself, obviously.

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Secondly, the centralization of almost like

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the traditional finance built on Bitcoin

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is of course problem as well,

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because the centralized exchanges, et cetera,

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are big honeypots for hackers and all the systemic risks.

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And ETFs, I mean, of course,

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those can't be really hacked in a certain way,

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but also there are exchanges behind those products,

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such as Coinbase.

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So I would argue mainly for the fact that self-custody tools,

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such as Trezor, are now very easy to use.

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I think there is this big myth that somehow hardware worlds are difficult and cumbersome, and that's no longer the case.

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We as a company, I think, put many products that prove that hardware worlds are easy to use.

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And yeah, users should store the keys individually and self-custody their Bitcoin, as was intended by Satoshi Nakamoto.

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Yeah, I mean, definitely that's the way, right, is just self-custody, hold it yourself, be your own bank, so to speak.

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But I think it's really interesting that we're starting to see traditional financial institutions start to come on, specifically like BlackRock and coming into that.

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So I'm curious, with your experience kind of being in the space for a while, now we're seeing traditional finance, the big players, right?

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The ETFs have been here, at least in the United States, for about a year.

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They've been in Europe and other countries for maybe a little bit longer.

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So do you think that it's a net positive because it will give an initial touchpoint to Bitcoiners where it's like, all right, you know, whatever tax associated account, you can now have access to Bitcoin?

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Or do you think it's maybe a negative because you're not practicing Bitcoin the way it was initially, you know, designed as that peer to peer cash?

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Yeah, it's a good question.

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I would be hard to speculate for me specifically where the future will be.

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So as to speak whether it is like net positive or negative, I'm not sure it would be the answer today.

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I think it's done good for Bitcoin advocacy in general.

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Like it's been, you know, now it's like a big political topic, for example, right?

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Like the president of the United States is talking about, you know, Bitcoin all the time.

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well that's probably

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you know maybe in some ways

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in this service as well you know launching his

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token etc like all those controversies

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controversial sort of things

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but I think it's good

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in terms of accessibility

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to the topic itself it probably brings

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a lot of attention to Bitcoin

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but on the other side exactly

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if the main

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story is that no matter

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what form of Bitcoin you should

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own and

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the end user, the retailer really doesn't

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care, then it

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worries me a little bit.

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And again, I think it's our

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job as a company to persuade

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customers to come

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the right way, as was

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originally intended. And not just

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for the sake of the original

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intention, but for the sake of

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it makes sense. If you own

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an ETF, for example, there's a lot

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of

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counterparty risk where

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you know, there's companies holding it for you again, those companies can fail, right? So

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as we've seen many times in the past, by the way, Bitcoin started as, you know, in 2008, right?

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After like one of the biggest financial crisis in the history of the capitalism, basically. So

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those, it was supposed to fix the money problem that we had in the fiat. So

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it worries me a little bit that now Bitcoin becomes this topic as, you know, it's like,

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it's a great asset that yields well, etc. But the original principles should not be forgotten. And

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I think that's why we are here specifically. Yeah, 100%. And I think you guys do a great job.

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And, you know, we're obviously we're here in Prague, coming to you, coming to you live during

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the conference. But I think it's really interesting here, because I mean, you brought up the US and

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everything, right? But the Czech National Bank was talking about, you know, looking into Bitcoin.

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And now we're having banks in the United States like JP Morgan, Jamie Dimon, really starting to

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almost like bend the knee to Bitcoin, where they're originally were really against it,

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and everything like that. And now they're talking about potentially looking into

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custodying it, and, you know, offering these products to their clients. So, you know, outside

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of the ETFs, how are you looking at potentially like banks as, you know, a custodian? Because,

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you know, my mom, for example, would trust her bank over me maybe holding a Bitcoin for her,

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just because she's not aware, right? So how do you see that developing?

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True. So I think in terms of like store value, it makes sense, right? Because the underlining

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asset Bitcoin will store value, it stores value very well. I mean, we see it, of course.

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but I think we should ask

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whether the other properties

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of Bitcoin

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of this sound money is met

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when you would custody it

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for example with bank

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and that's no

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so can you

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send it quickly

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can you spend it quickly

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can you do those things

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well not truly

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and is there a risk that somebody

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will take it away from you

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yes so yeah so i would obviously i would love bitcoin being you know used like directly um

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also on chain or or you know the the layers above you know it's all good but um when it comes to

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basically traditional finance i'm obviously you know a bit more skeptical um but then again as you

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As you asked before, like, does it ultimately do good in terms of the PR?

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Probably for now.

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Yeah, I think it did.

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It have done some good in terms of like more people know about Bitcoin now.

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And I can see it even like personally, right?

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Like people like friends that I've never, I mean, I haven't heard of like in a long time

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would, you know, reach out again and say, oh, what is this Bitcoin thing?

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And they probably hear through the channels of kind of more traditional channels in a way, not like on a cypherpunk meetup.

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So in that sense, yes, but I would still love more people to really care about the basics and the grounds and why Bitcoin.

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Yeah, 100%. And you mentioned the US government kind of coming in, Donald Trump.

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I think I remember my mom when Tesla was first accepting Bitcoin, she was like, oh, if Elon's doing it, it must be something smart, right?

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So as you've been in this space for a very long time, right?

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Trezor's been around, one of the oldest companies in the Bitcoin space.

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How have you seen this just develop like in the last four to five years?

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And has anything like really surprised you on how quickly things seem to be moving right now?

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Right. So just, for example, the fact that Bitcoin has become or became a topic in the US presidential election was honestly a big surprise.

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I mean, I expected it would happen at some point, that it would get into politics in such a way.

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But for it to become such a big topic was a bit surprising, to be honest.

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the institutions

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I think it also happened faster

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than I expected

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so now even BTC Prague had a whole day

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of corporate day

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where I went yesterday

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and Bitcoin as a treasury

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and many corporations

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have been discussed

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that was the main topic basically

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so I think a lot of companies

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are joining the space and again

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that was kind of fast

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that it happened quickly

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basically or it's like suddenly then then then quickly or what is this uh saying so so i think

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that's um um no sorry not suddenly then quickly it's gradually then suddenly exactly exactly like

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sorry that's uh that's that um so i think that's exactly what was happening right uh

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jp morgan again like a great example i think that the ceo was a big uh i have to say nice naysayer

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for a long time.

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He hated Bitcoin, I think.

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He didn't really understand it, quite frankly.

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And now we see, like, yeah, including Czech National Bank,

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I think it's a similar case,

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where now they consider it as being considered

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as a reserve of the country.

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And more countries are doing so.

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I think there's more discussion now for nations

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to have Bitcoin as their kind of reserve currency

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or reserve assets.

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and that's interesting.

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So did I answer the question?

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Sorry, I won't be all whole.

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No, you did for sure

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because I definitely think, you know,

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where this whole thing is going, right?

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We're seeing like institutions really start to go in.

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Like you said, at BTC Prague,

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I was just right before we came here,

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Saylor and Adam Back were just talking about it

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because there's so much access to capital

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for businesses opposed to, you know, just individuals.

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Like I could get a loan and go buy Bitcoin,

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But, you know, if all of us in this room together were to just say, hey, we're a company now and we want to go get a loan, well, the power of us, we could get a lot bigger loan and then just buy all of this, right?

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Buy a lot more Bitcoin a lot quickly or a lot more quickly.

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And I think it's just interesting that the traditional financial tools that are now starting to come to Bitcoin and then on top of it, governments talking about it, I think is really changing the game.

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But, you know, I'm curious with the sound money principles of Bitcoin, do you think that it's almost like they're almost admitting at this point that it's like, hey, fiat currency isn't working.

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So this is why we need to go find Bitcoin.

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Or are you a little bit more skeptical thinking almost it's like a PR stunt, so to speak, where it's like, hey, we needed to do this to kind of win some votes?

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I believe there is definitely, I mean, as a company, you make some money and then you want to protect it properly.

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I mean, you want to reinvest it maybe into making more products or better products, right?

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And if the current fiat is basically stealing some value of what you kind of made, then Bitcoin makes perfect sense, right?

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So in that sense, I think a lot of the corporations and strategy might be, of course, like the biggest example, might be one of the cases or is one of the cases where they basically, it's solving the store of value for them, I assume.

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And that being said, also, I'm the kind of the school of thought where I think it still would be it's still better to have like a profitable company and not just like be heavily leveraged against and just like borrowing to buy, you know, Bitcoin.

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It's still to a certain degree a speculation in a way.

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And I what if I told you you never had to sell your Bitcoin?

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Instead, you can borrow against it with salt lending.

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go? With Salt, you get secure Bitcoin collateralized loans with no credit checks, no prepayment

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fees, and best of all, no rehypopulation. Salt has had zero customer collateral losses

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way back in 2016. Today, they offer tailored options for both individuals and businesses.

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trusted proven i hope it's not like uh it would be not that it wouldn't be like some big bubble or

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something like this uh so but but yeah i think it makes sense for for nations and corporations to

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to do it and advocate for it,

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because it solves exactly the store of value problem.

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Yeah, and I think it's interesting

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you're kind of talking about it

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as the store of value right now And you brought up the corporations aspect I feel like there kind of two different types of corporations that we seeing pop up like the similar scientifics where they have you know a healthcare aspect So they have a business and then they have

225
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the Bitcoin on the balance sheet. And then there's other corporations that, you know, you're seeing

226
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21, Nakamoto, like those companies come up that they're just saying, hey, we're just strictly a

227
00:16:25,238 --> 00:16:31,678
Bitcoin holding company. This is all we want to do. Now, do these two separate strategies almost,

228
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I guess, worry you in a sense where it's like, all right, well, a business, it could help save

229
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maybe a zombie business, give them a little bit more runway. But I think that there's a big risk

230
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when it comes to these holding companies where essentially you're just getting a bunch of

231
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leverage to buy Bitcoin. Is that something that you're almost worried about in this space as we

232
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you see it developing?

233
00:16:54,038 --> 00:16:55,758
Yeah, I'm not, just a disclaimer,

234
00:16:55,878 --> 00:16:58,578
I'm not an expert on finances or anything, right?

235
00:16:58,658 --> 00:17:00,217
So just to say that out loud,

236
00:17:00,318 --> 00:17:02,678
but I'm a product person

237
00:17:02,678 --> 00:17:06,318
and I still, you know, believe that as a company,

238
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you should have a product that you sell.

239
00:17:07,998 --> 00:17:09,717
It's quite easy, actually.

240
00:17:09,858 --> 00:17:11,538
It's quite kind of common sense.

241
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If you want to make it as a company,

242
00:17:12,898 --> 00:17:16,858
well, you got to sell something to make money off.

243
00:17:17,237 --> 00:17:19,118
And as I said, like reinvest it

244
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or start it if you want for longer, et cetera.

245
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All those things make sense.

246
00:17:24,938 --> 00:17:27,658
So I would be just a little worried in terms of like,

247
00:17:27,838 --> 00:17:30,938
yeah, these like heavily, heavily leveraged companies

248
00:17:30,938 --> 00:17:35,258
that are really not creating a value

249
00:17:35,258 --> 00:17:37,197
that they could sell in a way, right?

250
00:17:37,197 --> 00:17:39,477
So of course I get the point.

251
00:17:39,618 --> 00:17:41,498
I mean, the value is in Bitcoin, right?

252
00:17:41,557 --> 00:17:42,918
Like they don't need product.

253
00:17:44,258 --> 00:17:45,717
But I'm just really curious

254
00:17:45,717 --> 00:17:48,498
how they span out in the future, to be honest.

255
00:17:48,498 --> 00:17:58,678
Because again, like I'm kind of old school in a way, it's like, I would like to see some tangible value that would get out of their kind of production, right?

256
00:17:58,977 --> 00:18:02,658
Yeah, 100%. And I think at the core of it, it's just Bitcoin, right?

257
00:18:02,658 --> 00:18:03,057
Right, right.

258
00:18:03,057 --> 00:18:06,858
So how Bitcoin was developed, you know, was to be peer-to-peer cash.

259
00:18:07,378 --> 00:18:12,518
And I feel like this is kind of highlighted that right now, maybe globally, we're in that store of value phase.

260
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How do you see Bitcoin developing and potentially getting to that peer-to-peer cash?

261
00:18:17,197 --> 00:18:23,598
area. Yeah, well, I would, of course, love to see it as, you know, as you said, like as

262
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electronic cash in a way. So I think the scalability solutions are being developed. So I would really

263
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love us to see more of those sort of second layers and for them to be really applicable in a way that

264
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you could like use it easily. I mean, Lightning has been, you know, doing fairly well, but it has

265
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certain issues as well of like an actual

266
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scalability of like rolling it out to

267
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many

268
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users so

269
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yeah that I think would be

270
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awesome but also

271
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I guess

272
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now Bitcoin is becoming more

273
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of like a digital gold

274
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in a way that like people really have

275
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it even retail not just

276
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the companies to use it

277
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as a store of value so

278
00:19:10,578 --> 00:19:13,338
so I think

279
00:19:13,338 --> 00:19:21,398
that's where we are now. And I would love to see it as a cash as well. But who knows where the future

280
00:19:21,398 --> 00:19:27,378
will go? Well, Jack Dorsey came out. Yeah, I mean, I don't either, right? Jack Dorsey kind of said

281
00:19:27,378 --> 00:19:32,618
that he thinks that we don't get to that peer-to-peer cash that Bitcoin has failed. But, you know, I had

282
00:19:32,618 --> 00:19:37,197
Mark Moss in here the other day, and he kind of said, you know, these things work in like 40 to 50

283
00:19:37,197 --> 00:19:41,498
year cycles, where it's like the first 10 years, it's kind of like, all right, everybody's like,

284
00:19:41,498 --> 00:19:46,717
retail investors. Second 10 years is the institutions, which is what we're seeing now.

285
00:19:47,217 --> 00:19:53,938
Third 10 years is more of the government starting to come in. So that means like around 2030-ish time.

286
00:19:54,578 --> 00:19:59,998
And then after that, then we get actual peer-to-peer cash. And then after that is unit

287
00:19:59,998 --> 00:20:05,838
account. So it seems to be lining up that way. But I don't know if we're going to get there that

288
00:20:05,838 --> 00:20:11,518
quickly. I think that it's kind of, you know, kind of trending in that direction. But do you think

289
00:20:11,518 --> 00:20:16,638
that we're going to see, you know, as that develops, like, get closer to peer-to-peer cash?

290
00:20:16,697 --> 00:20:20,858
Because we have these circular economies popping up, you know, whether it's we're buying stuff at

291
00:20:20,858 --> 00:20:27,098
BTC Prague or we're buying stuff in, you know, Uvita, Costa Rica, Bitcoin, you know, Bitcoin

292
00:20:27,098 --> 00:20:31,477
jungle or something like that. Do you see more of these like circular economies kind of helping

293
00:20:31,477 --> 00:20:35,818
build the ground up and that peer-to-peer cash start to really start to develop?

294
00:20:36,378 --> 00:20:42,038
Yeah, so I'm like a huge sort of free market maximalist in a way that like whether, if it has,

295
00:20:42,758 --> 00:20:48,197
it's like when the products sort of or the service or whatever have its own valuable properties,

296
00:20:48,678 --> 00:20:59,197
then inevitably it would be used by many and by more, right? So I think in this case,

297
00:20:59,197 --> 00:21:00,638
it's the same thing when

298
00:21:00,638 --> 00:21:03,058
we build tooling

299
00:21:03,058 --> 00:21:05,138
around Bitcoin and about

300
00:21:05,138 --> 00:21:06,838
keeping it safe and about

301
00:21:06,838 --> 00:21:08,518
your ability to spend it

302
00:21:08,518 --> 00:21:10,398
quickly, easily, etc.

303
00:21:10,658 --> 00:21:12,778
Then I think it can

304
00:21:12,778 --> 00:21:15,398
be the

305
00:21:15,398 --> 00:21:17,138
case. But yeah, the scalability

306
00:21:17,138 --> 00:21:18,918
is currently obviously the issue.

307
00:21:19,358 --> 00:21:21,298
So it's something we have to work on

308
00:21:21,298 --> 00:21:22,178
as a community.

309
00:21:24,278 --> 00:21:24,758
And

310
00:21:24,758 --> 00:21:27,118
yeah, I would love to see it happen,

311
00:21:27,197 --> 00:21:29,058
of course, because again, we are Bitcoin

312
00:21:29,058 --> 00:21:34,977
right yeah how do you see like the development of cold storage and like potentially having the hot

313
00:21:34,977 --> 00:21:38,477
wallets how do you see that kind of developing do you think like that's going to essentially

314
00:21:38,477 --> 00:21:43,818
i guess change people's personal finances where maybe hey i have a stack in cold storage

315
00:21:43,818 --> 00:21:49,118
i have a stack on a hot wallet um you know for spending and kind of having different piles

316
00:21:49,118 --> 00:21:53,717
um or do you think there's going to be a way that these things kind of like mix and coincide

317
00:21:53,717 --> 00:21:58,498
together here in the in the near future yeah i can i can see that they would live together in like

318
00:21:58,498 --> 00:22:02,258
one ecosystem, you know, I could see that happening easily.

319
00:22:03,197 --> 00:22:08,717
Again, like provided it's safe, I think kind of the sort of top-up analogy is probably

320
00:22:08,717 --> 00:22:09,438
the easiest, right?

321
00:22:09,477 --> 00:22:13,737
So you can have the call storage, you can top up some whatever app it is and being the

322
00:22:13,737 --> 00:22:20,278
same product or a different, like a competitor, for example, or somebody else in the market.

323
00:22:21,018 --> 00:22:24,038
So yeah, those things I can see happening.

324
00:22:24,038 --> 00:22:32,058
and I think it's how ideally how it would work.

325
00:22:34,957 --> 00:22:41,258
Also, I'm not afraid to say it's even okay to start, I think, with custody

326
00:22:41,258 --> 00:22:46,358
if you really don't know Bitcoin at all and you're maybe just starting out.

327
00:22:46,438 --> 00:22:46,818
It's fine.

328
00:22:47,018 --> 00:22:52,398
Just try to send your first transaction maybe off the custody to on-chain.

329
00:22:52,398 --> 00:22:55,138
try different things, learn a little bit

330
00:22:55,138 --> 00:22:56,878
and then ideally

331
00:22:56,878 --> 00:22:59,477
the end game is have a cold storage

332
00:22:59,477 --> 00:23:01,498
and then exactly and have some

333
00:23:01,498 --> 00:23:03,378
today

334
00:23:03,378 --> 00:23:05,237
mobile app that you can spend

335
00:23:05,237 --> 00:23:07,457
easily. Yeah, I mean I definitely

336
00:23:07,457 --> 00:23:08,858
think there's levels to it, right?

337
00:23:08,998 --> 00:23:11,258
When you first send your first Bitcoin

338
00:23:11,258 --> 00:23:13,398
transaction, I don't know if you remember yours, but I remember

339
00:23:13,398 --> 00:23:15,418
my heart racing because you're waiting for a little

340
00:23:15,418 --> 00:23:17,197
bit and you're like, is it actually going through?

341
00:23:17,278 --> 00:23:18,678
Did I copy everything correctly?

342
00:23:19,098 --> 00:23:20,818
I don't really know, but

343
00:23:20,818 --> 00:23:26,318
yeah, I definitely think that it's going to be, you know, developing in that realm. It's actually

344
00:23:26,318 --> 00:23:32,298
funny, I saw a study the other day, that River put out that 55% of all Bitcoin that's currently

345
00:23:32,298 --> 00:23:37,858
in circulation is in cold storage. So although the narrative, you know, these ETFs are growing,

346
00:23:38,438 --> 00:23:43,638
you know, Coinbase and all these, it seems like the majority of Bitcoin is coming off of exchanges,

347
00:23:43,898 --> 00:23:48,338
I think it's only around 2 million is available on exchanges right now. And with the amount of

348
00:23:48,338 --> 00:23:53,298
buying that's going on, it seems like more and more is going to get pulled off. So do you see

349
00:23:53,298 --> 00:23:58,358
that as an encouraging trend, obviously, for what you guys do here, but just in general,

350
00:23:58,558 --> 00:24:02,838
in the Bitcoin space, that more people are starting to, you know, maybe they're coming in,

351
00:24:02,838 --> 00:24:07,197
and then they're learning pretty quickly, hey, there's a lot of these easy tools, I can take it

352
00:24:07,197 --> 00:24:12,398
in cold storage and, you know, be my own bank. Yeah, totally. So I mean, I always say this,

353
00:24:12,498 --> 00:24:17,418
like, whenever there are some bigger hacks, you know, happening in the market, like on these big

354
00:24:17,418 --> 00:24:21,038
centralized exchanges, we see it instantly in our sales.

355
00:24:21,398 --> 00:24:27,818
So the word gets out and the main message is sort of get off exchanges

356
00:24:27,818 --> 00:24:31,898
and get into cold storage of a hardware wallet.

357
00:24:32,258 --> 00:24:33,717
So we can see it in retail.

358
00:24:33,717 --> 00:24:41,658
I assume similar things are happening in the B2B world where the custodians

359
00:24:41,658 --> 00:24:46,237
would still, I assume, hold it in some proper cold storage.

360
00:24:46,237 --> 00:24:51,217
so yeah I think it makes sense in this way

361
00:24:51,217 --> 00:24:52,618
and it's the way it should be

362
00:24:52,618 --> 00:24:54,518
yeah and I definitely think that

363
00:24:54,518 --> 00:24:57,818
this is the way that Satoshi kind of intended it to go

364
00:24:57,818 --> 00:25:00,998
but how have you seen the development of cold storage

365
00:25:00,998 --> 00:25:04,018
because it seems like at first

366
00:25:04,018 --> 00:25:07,338
it was kind of just foreign to a lot of people

367
00:25:07,338 --> 00:25:08,957
and it seems like we're trying to make it

368
00:25:08,957 --> 00:25:12,138
like you said a little bit easier on the end user

369
00:25:12,138 --> 00:25:15,237
so how have you guys here at Trezor

370
00:25:15,237 --> 00:25:18,358
and maybe some of the other hardware wallets that you've seen developed.

371
00:25:18,658 --> 00:25:21,737
How have you seen that kind of, I guess, change over time

372
00:25:21,737 --> 00:25:23,898
to make it easier on the end user?

373
00:25:24,678 --> 00:25:27,717
Yeah, so usability is a huge part of what we're trying to do

374
00:25:27,717 --> 00:25:29,697
and accomplish and improve.

375
00:25:30,098 --> 00:25:32,078
Ultimately, I think there has been this myth

376
00:25:32,078 --> 00:25:35,477
that hardware wallets are hard to use, as I said before,

377
00:25:35,578 --> 00:25:36,898
and that's no longer the case.

378
00:25:36,898 --> 00:25:45,358
They are actually very easy and intuitive devices

379
00:25:45,358 --> 00:25:48,098
and intuitive applications built around them.

380
00:25:48,678 --> 00:25:50,918
And that applies to us and also our competitors.

381
00:25:51,078 --> 00:25:53,818
To be honest, I think it's great to have, as I said,

382
00:25:54,018 --> 00:25:55,858
like I'm a free market maximalist in a way.

383
00:25:55,977 --> 00:25:58,818
It's great to have good competition.

384
00:25:58,998 --> 00:26:00,298
I think we are pushing ourselves.

385
00:26:01,118 --> 00:26:05,158
Because in a way, we are kind of, how to say,

386
00:26:05,158 --> 00:26:10,118
like brothers and sisters in a way that we want to get as many people into self-custody of hardware

387
00:26:10,118 --> 00:26:15,598
as possible so i think pushing ourselves in that direction is is is good and healthy

388
00:26:15,598 --> 00:26:21,058
uh because ultimately the end user wins right because they will get a better deal um

389
00:26:21,058 --> 00:26:28,498
and so yeah we are trying to do a lot in terms of uh privacy security and usability we always say

390
00:26:28,498 --> 00:26:33,237
those are the three pillars that self-custody is built on and if any of those three pillars

391
00:26:33,237 --> 00:26:37,538
is missing or crumbling, then the whole thing collapses, right?

392
00:26:37,638 --> 00:26:42,957
So I think, again, hardware wallets used to be these geeky devices

393
00:26:42,957 --> 00:26:46,998
with horrible software that only engineers could use.

394
00:26:47,197 --> 00:26:48,578
That's no longer the case.

395
00:26:48,618 --> 00:26:51,418
It's actually, you know, very, very easy.

396
00:26:52,318 --> 00:26:54,518
Yeah, it definitely seems like, I mean, hey, like,

397
00:26:54,598 --> 00:26:56,197
I have no problem using it.

398
00:26:56,318 --> 00:26:59,138
I mean, I definitely think that this is the way, right?

399
00:26:59,197 --> 00:27:00,618
Like more of these hardware wallets.

400
00:27:00,618 --> 00:27:10,138
I mean, we've got the development of the hardware wallets back there from you guys as well, which I think is always really cool to see just kind of how it's shifted and changed in general.

401
00:27:10,918 --> 00:27:15,918
And like you said, I think, you know, having a few different options, let's take, you know, the cream rise to the top.

402
00:27:15,977 --> 00:27:17,118
You guys have a little competition.

403
00:27:17,418 --> 00:27:18,798
It's all good for everybody.

404
00:27:19,457 --> 00:27:26,598
But the privacy thing, I think, is kind of unique because, you know, Bitcoiners stress privacy in a sense, right?

405
00:27:27,558 --> 00:27:29,918
Even though it's like an open source ledger.

406
00:27:29,918 --> 00:27:39,938
And we just had a privacy attack at Coinbase where millions of users had their phone numbers, emails, all those things stolen.

407
00:27:40,197 --> 00:27:41,118
I mean, I did.

408
00:27:41,197 --> 00:27:42,818
I had a Coinbase account way back when.

409
00:27:42,898 --> 00:27:46,298
I closed it years ago, and I'm getting calls while we're here at this conference still.

410
00:27:46,758 --> 00:27:52,398
This bull run, I'm looking for ways to stack Bitcoin in my sleep, and mining has always caught my eye.

411
00:27:52,717 --> 00:27:57,737
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412
00:27:57,737 --> 00:28:00,518
I don't recommend anything that I don't use personally.

413
00:28:00,938 --> 00:28:04,217
So I've got a machine up and running with them right this second.

414
00:28:04,538 --> 00:28:08,538
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415
00:28:09,278 --> 00:28:14,998
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416
00:28:14,998 --> 00:28:16,638
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417
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418
00:28:20,558 --> 00:28:23,217
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419
00:28:23,217 --> 00:28:36,758
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420
00:28:37,038 --> 00:28:39,578
All right, enough from me. Let's get back to the show.

421
00:28:39,578 --> 00:28:40,538
Oh, wow.

422
00:28:40,538 --> 00:28:58,818
So, yeah, I'm curious kind of how you see not only, you know, the privacy from, you know, having it with a cold storage device, but also, you know, just having it off an exchange, how that's kind of developed and maybe the mindset around that when we see events like what just happened with Coinbase.

423
00:28:58,818 --> 00:29:04,717
Yeah. So, number one, these exchanges are centralized, right?

424
00:29:04,838 --> 00:29:10,338
What it means that, why it's a bigger problem or bigger risk for the user.

425
00:29:10,538 --> 00:29:17,858
Well, basically, if you're a hacker, are you trying to get to this one little individual fish in the pond?

426
00:29:17,858 --> 00:29:23,318
Or are you trying to get to maybe shop with all the data that you can steal?

427
00:29:23,778 --> 00:29:26,118
Of course, you will do that because it's more practical.

428
00:29:26,298 --> 00:29:28,058
You will possibly gain more, right?

429
00:29:28,178 --> 00:29:32,358
So obviously, these big companies are a much larger target.

430
00:29:32,598 --> 00:29:35,538
And they are targeted, exactly as we see all the time.

431
00:29:35,538 --> 00:29:43,438
both on the key side, like in terms of security of the underlining, you know, keys of the coins and Bitcoin and other crypto,

432
00:29:43,438 --> 00:29:45,578
but also the security.

433
00:29:46,298 --> 00:29:51,078
Now the security is extremely important, again, going back to the pillars of self-custody,

434
00:29:51,638 --> 00:29:56,258
because the point of self-custody is you are your own bank.

435
00:29:56,638 --> 00:30:05,138
So you don't want any bad people to know, you know, how much you have, where you have it, how you have it stored, you know, how to get to it.

436
00:30:05,538 --> 00:30:19,778
So for us as a company, for example, we really take that super seriously and we don't really know anything about our users in terms of how much they have and anything about their keys, etc.

437
00:30:19,778 --> 00:30:23,098
That simply the system is built in an open source way.

438
00:30:23,358 --> 00:30:29,398
So it's auditable by the expert community, but also in a way that we cannot really track those things.

439
00:30:29,898 --> 00:30:31,098
And that's very important.

440
00:30:31,638 --> 00:30:34,498
On our eShop, for example, we delete the data.

441
00:30:34,498 --> 00:30:43,217
I mean, of course, you need to have certain, for example, data to be able to deliver the goods to the users, but then we delete those data points.

442
00:30:43,498 --> 00:30:46,038
And it's quite important.

443
00:30:46,258 --> 00:30:48,278
That's something we take very seriously.

444
00:30:48,818 --> 00:30:53,598
Yeah, and you guys have definitely built up the trust of the community over a long period of time.

445
00:30:53,818 --> 00:31:01,737
But, you know, with these waves of the Bitcoin space, right, it's a lot of volatility, just not only in the Bitcoin price, but in Bitcoin in general, right?

446
00:31:01,737 --> 00:31:05,098
When Bitcoin's pumping, everybody's like, all right, let's do this thing.

447
00:31:05,197 --> 00:31:10,018
And then when it's crashing or just like kind of floating along, everything's all quiet, right?

448
00:31:10,018 --> 00:31:14,078
So how have you guys with being a Bitcoin community that's been able to,

449
00:31:14,258 --> 00:31:16,598
or a Bitcoin company that's stuck around for so long,

450
00:31:17,118 --> 00:31:21,278
how has that been just weathering the volatility waves?

451
00:31:22,338 --> 00:31:23,578
It is specific.

452
00:31:23,778 --> 00:31:25,998
It is specific to this industry.

453
00:31:26,878 --> 00:31:30,338
And we have to plan very carefully.

454
00:31:30,338 --> 00:31:39,237
Also hardware specifically, because we are a hardware company predominantly, you need to manage your stock carefully.

455
00:31:39,878 --> 00:31:46,938
So you want to have just the right amount, so not too much, because obviously that tanks your cash flow.

456
00:31:48,098 --> 00:31:52,858
But also you need to build it in time to be able to serve the peak demands.

457
00:31:52,858 --> 00:32:00,858
And that's hard and it requires a sort of sophisticated degree of planning.

458
00:32:00,858 --> 00:32:03,858
And that's what we are trying to do.

459
00:32:03,858 --> 00:32:04,858
And we've learned a lot.

460
00:32:04,858 --> 00:32:16,215
I think we learned our lessons over the years because there were times we didn have stock in the past and that sucks right Because then basically means the demand will go to the competitors right

461
00:32:16,295 --> 00:32:17,515
Which is not great.

462
00:32:18,055 --> 00:32:22,495
So, yeah, so that's very important.

463
00:32:23,495 --> 00:32:29,695
Also, in general, we are a bit more conservative in a way that we don't have any external capital.

464
00:32:30,035 --> 00:32:31,755
So we grow steadily.

465
00:32:31,755 --> 00:32:34,735
basically I joined the company some six years ago

466
00:32:34,735 --> 00:32:36,715
and we've been growing pretty much steadily

467
00:32:36,715 --> 00:32:39,155
year on year ever since.

468
00:32:40,615 --> 00:32:43,655
But we grow conservatively in a way that it's like

469
00:32:43,655 --> 00:32:46,415
we would not hire 200 people

470
00:32:46,415 --> 00:32:51,055
and then fire 150 the next six months or something.

471
00:32:51,055 --> 00:32:57,215
So that's what it means to live off our own capital.

472
00:32:58,255 --> 00:33:00,035
But again, what I've mentioned before,

473
00:33:00,035 --> 00:33:10,195
I'm a big proponent of this, actually, not to be a heavily leveraged company, not to live off debt, but really live off our own earnings as a healthy business.

474
00:33:10,915 --> 00:33:14,175
I think it's the right way.

475
00:33:14,635 --> 00:33:15,455
Yeah, 100%.

476
00:33:15,455 --> 00:33:22,175
Do you guys look at putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet with that, if you're able to disclose anything with that?

477
00:33:22,595 --> 00:33:28,835
Yeah, of course, you can buy also hardware wallets for our products for Bitcoin.

478
00:33:28,835 --> 00:33:31,235
and we actually keep that Bitcoin.

479
00:33:31,415 --> 00:33:33,135
We really don't sell.

480
00:33:33,635 --> 00:33:34,675
Yeah, that's awesome.

481
00:33:34,875 --> 00:33:36,035
Okay, so I got to ask,

482
00:33:36,355 --> 00:33:40,475
as a company that's servicing Bitcoiners,

483
00:33:40,915 --> 00:33:43,455
I think I heard the other day

484
00:33:43,455 --> 00:33:45,615
from one guy who sells just Bitcoin merch,

485
00:33:45,775 --> 00:33:47,055
like shirts and everything like that.

486
00:33:47,315 --> 00:33:49,555
He said only about 10% of his customers

487
00:33:49,555 --> 00:33:51,615
use Bitcoin to actually buy the shirts.

488
00:33:51,695 --> 00:33:52,435
You'd think, right?

489
00:33:52,495 --> 00:33:53,775
A Bitcoin shirt,

490
00:33:54,315 --> 00:33:56,495
you'd be using Bitcoin more often.

491
00:33:56,495 --> 00:34:02,575
And do you have like just a rough estimate of how many people use actual Bitcoin to buy, you know, a hardware wallet?

492
00:34:02,895 --> 00:34:08,675
I believe it's around a similar number, but I don't remember the last number.

493
00:34:08,795 --> 00:34:09,175
So I'm sorry.

494
00:34:09,435 --> 00:34:13,675
I don't know exactly, but I think it's a couple of dozens of percent, let's say.

495
00:34:13,895 --> 00:34:14,155
Okay.

496
00:34:14,215 --> 00:34:15,375
It's definitely less than 50%.

497
00:34:15,375 --> 00:34:16,215
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

498
00:34:16,215 --> 00:34:30,235
It's always interesting because I think that as the community and everything develops, you'd hope that we'd get more of this peer-to-peer exchange or cash that Bitcoin was really designed for.

499
00:34:30,235 --> 00:34:36,435
But with the volatility, you said you've got to make sure you have enough stock and everything like that.

500
00:34:36,435 --> 00:34:58,095
But outside of, you know, the stock challenges and the waves that, you know, we see in the Bitcoin space, has there been any other challenges that you think you've faced that have maybe been a little bit abnormal to a normal business just because of, you know, not only the volatility of the Bitcoin price, but, you know, the volatility of just the space in general, it seems.

501
00:34:58,595 --> 00:35:04,395
Yeah, I would say in general it's Bitcoin price because it's pretty much correlated with our sales.

502
00:35:04,395 --> 00:35:12,415
So whenever Bitcoin is going up, then we normally see spike in or correlation, let's say, with our sales.

503
00:35:13,975 --> 00:35:17,115
Specifically, this bull market, it's been a slightly different.

504
00:35:17,395 --> 00:35:19,935
It's kind of a weird bull market in this sense.

505
00:35:20,195 --> 00:35:23,255
I think it's been driven mainly by the corporations that we've discussed.

506
00:35:24,055 --> 00:35:31,195
And it hasn't really touched upon the big retail inflow of users yet.

507
00:35:31,335 --> 00:35:33,495
And it's what we are still hoping to see.

508
00:35:33,495 --> 00:35:36,315
my prediction would be hopefully this year

509
00:35:36,315 --> 00:35:37,975
we still see some

510
00:35:37,975 --> 00:35:39,915
bigger peaks in that regard

511
00:35:39,915 --> 00:35:42,335
so I think that's

512
00:35:42,335 --> 00:35:43,995
a bit specific

513
00:35:43,995 --> 00:35:46,275
in that sense of course there is some seasonality

514
00:35:46,275 --> 00:35:48,155
on a smaller scale

515
00:35:48,155 --> 00:35:50,415
such as Christmas, Black Friday

516
00:35:50,415 --> 00:35:52,415
holiday being a bit more

517
00:35:52,415 --> 00:35:53,895
like a cucumber season in a way

518
00:35:53,895 --> 00:35:55,915
so yeah

519
00:35:55,915 --> 00:35:56,595
in that

520
00:35:56,595 --> 00:36:00,355
sense there are some

521
00:36:00,355 --> 00:36:02,195
specificities and it's mainly

522
00:36:02,195 --> 00:36:07,215
Bitcoin price, quite frankly. Yeah. So then, you know, you brought up this cycle, right? We're

523
00:36:07,215 --> 00:36:12,015
seeing more institutions come in and we haven't really seen retail come in yet. How are you

524
00:36:12,015 --> 00:36:17,715
viewing this cycle? Do you think that it's going to be, you know, maybe that slow creep up? Or do

525
00:36:17,715 --> 00:36:22,175
you think that once retail starts to come in and because we have these institutions, you know,

526
00:36:22,175 --> 00:36:27,995
maybe we'll see that coveted super cycle. Like, how are you kind of seeing, you know, this cycle

527
00:36:27,995 --> 00:36:29,815
maybe compared to previous cycles.

528
00:36:30,355 --> 00:36:30,535
Yeah.

529
00:36:31,715 --> 00:36:34,035
It's always hard to predict these things

530
00:36:34,035 --> 00:36:37,535
because they're almost certainly wrong in some regard.

531
00:36:39,315 --> 00:36:41,455
But I think it might just be the case

532
00:36:41,455 --> 00:36:42,715
that the big cycles are over.

533
00:36:43,235 --> 00:36:43,655
Maybe.

534
00:36:43,955 --> 00:36:44,375
I don't know.

535
00:36:44,575 --> 00:36:45,535
Maybe it's just...

536
00:36:46,395 --> 00:36:48,335
There was always this Halloween story,

537
00:36:48,535 --> 00:36:49,975
then every four years, et cetera,

538
00:36:50,395 --> 00:36:52,135
and then the peak within a year

539
00:36:52,135 --> 00:36:55,635
or the next sort of full-time high.

540
00:36:56,655 --> 00:36:57,435
But who knows?

541
00:36:57,435 --> 00:37:00,835
maybe it'll be more linear in this sense, right?

542
00:37:00,935 --> 00:37:03,615
Maybe there are no, yeah.

543
00:37:03,875 --> 00:37:05,315
So that might be the case.

544
00:37:05,435 --> 00:37:06,375
I'm not sure.

545
00:37:07,115 --> 00:37:12,055
I mean, obviously, I still hope there will be a strong bull market

546
00:37:12,055 --> 00:37:15,915
again, you know, this year and hopefully next year.

547
00:37:17,335 --> 00:37:20,395
But whether those big cycles will repeat,

548
00:37:20,655 --> 00:37:22,675
again, I'm not sure, to be honest.

549
00:37:22,915 --> 00:37:25,675
I think I would spoke differently, you know, three years ago, for example.

550
00:37:25,675 --> 00:37:30,955
I would be like, now 100%, you know, there's like another one coming in and going down and then going back up.

551
00:37:31,615 --> 00:37:32,515
Now I'm not so sure.

552
00:37:33,195 --> 00:37:34,295
Well, what's changed then?

553
00:37:34,395 --> 00:37:36,515
Why do you think that there's been a little bit of a change?

554
00:37:36,575 --> 00:37:37,415
Is it because of the...

555
00:37:37,415 --> 00:37:42,715
Okay, so you've discovered Bitcoin and are on the path to financial self-sovereignty.

556
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557
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558
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So sharing your keys with third parties and taking on that counterparty risk is not the answer.

559
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The answer is pure and simple.

560
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561
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562
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565
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566
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567
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568
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569
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570
00:38:37,995 --> 00:38:41,455
Price action that we're seeing, or is it because of the players that are coming in?

571
00:38:41,995 --> 00:38:44,395
Why do you think your opinion has kind of changed over this?

572
00:38:44,395 --> 00:38:55,315
I think all of that above also because mainly I assume it's because it, paradoxically, because it has become such a big topic.

573
00:38:55,435 --> 00:38:59,295
There are no big PR events any longer, right?

574
00:38:59,295 --> 00:39:02,715
Now it's like constantly everybody's talking about it, including Trump.

575
00:39:02,715 --> 00:39:20,375
And then, you know, maybe there are no like these sort of rushes of like the gold rushes or the Bitcoin rushes of that were here in the past of this like huge FOMO driven purchases of like a huge amount of like retail investors.

576
00:39:20,935 --> 00:39:24,275
So as you maybe that's that might be one of the reasons, right?

577
00:39:24,275 --> 00:39:26,495
So it's become a bit more normalized.

578
00:39:26,495 --> 00:39:33,715
So on one side, you see, have like a steady growth of the price because there's so much more interest from everybody.

579
00:39:34,095 --> 00:39:38,355
And now mainly the corporations or, you know, now the corporations.

580
00:39:38,535 --> 00:39:44,135
But then maybe there are no more of these like big FOMO, you know, events.

581
00:39:44,715 --> 00:39:47,795
Yeah, definitely seems like it's becoming a more developed market, right?

582
00:39:47,995 --> 00:39:48,175
Exactly.

583
00:39:48,375 --> 00:39:48,535
Yeah.

584
00:39:48,535 --> 00:39:51,035
We're talking about like the store of value earlier.

585
00:39:51,215 --> 00:39:52,655
And I always think it's interesting, too.

586
00:39:52,655 --> 00:39:56,395
I mean, River does a lot of great, great research studies.

587
00:39:56,975 --> 00:40:03,455
And, you know, even though they're an exchange, you know, they do disclose their holdings, which I think is better if you had to keep it on there.

588
00:40:03,535 --> 00:40:05,555
But obviously, we encourage cold storage.

589
00:40:06,675 --> 00:40:12,615
But one of the studies they put out here recently was that more Americans hold Bitcoin than gold.

590
00:40:12,615 --> 00:40:25,215
And so I think that's kind of a development that we're starting to see as far as this market goes, where we're seeing, like you said, more people are like, all right, this is a long-term at least store of value.

591
00:40:25,595 --> 00:40:29,715
Maybe they have some stack for the peer-to-peer exchange, and they're going to get that way.

592
00:40:29,715 --> 00:40:43,335
So how do you see, I guess, the mindset shift or have you noticed that with any of the Bitcoin community where, you know, maybe there was, you know, people spending 10,000 Bitcoin for pizza at some point in time.

593
00:40:43,775 --> 00:40:51,155
Maybe we won't see 10,000 Bitcoin for pizza, but maybe we're seeing people a little bit more tentative to hold on to their stats right now.

594
00:40:51,215 --> 00:40:55,915
How are you seeing, I guess, maybe the mindset of the overall space right now?

595
00:40:55,915 --> 00:41:03,115
Yeah, so I think I can speak for what we see in our community and our user base.

596
00:41:03,795 --> 00:41:08,275
Again, we don't have any specifics because we don't really have that much data in general.

597
00:41:08,675 --> 00:41:13,375
But what we can see at least, like the huddle use case, is definitely the biggest one, right?

598
00:41:13,495 --> 00:41:16,775
So we have some user profiles, some personas, et cetera.

599
00:41:17,575 --> 00:41:24,955
And 90% of the main use case is the huddle, right?

600
00:41:24,955 --> 00:41:31,875
So most people would use Shazer to just keep it in Shazer and not really move it as much.

601
00:41:32,495 --> 00:41:35,855
The other use case, the big one is basically trade.

602
00:41:35,995 --> 00:41:38,975
So all kinds of exchanges from coin to coin, right?

603
00:41:39,075 --> 00:41:42,055
So Bitcoin for crypto and vice versa or crypto to crypto.

604
00:41:44,135 --> 00:41:49,735
But I think the store of value in that sense is definitely the winning use case.

605
00:41:50,095 --> 00:41:52,675
Yeah, I mean, I think it's very difficult to trade this market.

606
00:41:52,675 --> 00:41:57,655
And I think, you know, especially with the amount of volatility that we see in it, right?

607
00:41:57,735 --> 00:42:03,515
I mean, everybody always says, hey, I want to just buy at the bottom and sell at the top and then, you know, keep doing it.

608
00:42:03,535 --> 00:42:10,475
But it seems like a human intuition is always, you know, sell on the way down and then buy when it's going back up.

609
00:42:11,035 --> 00:42:14,075
And as you see with, you know, your sales too, right?

610
00:42:14,115 --> 00:42:22,535
As things like start to go up, everybody's like, okay, now I'm more interested than Bitcoin when, you know, Bitcoin was 80K a couple weeks ago or a couple months ago.

611
00:42:22,535 --> 00:42:24,975
and nobody was really talking about it then.

612
00:42:25,195 --> 00:42:28,995
So it's interesting to see this development over time.

613
00:42:29,495 --> 00:42:31,515
But, you know, as an American,

614
00:42:31,655 --> 00:42:33,175
I don't get like too much exposure

615
00:42:33,175 --> 00:42:35,235
to the European side of things.

616
00:42:35,355 --> 00:42:37,755
It seems like, you know, Prague just being out here,

617
00:42:38,095 --> 00:42:39,335
it's absolutely massive.

618
00:42:39,915 --> 00:42:41,555
So how would you kind of describe

619
00:42:41,555 --> 00:42:42,995
the overall community here?

620
00:42:43,175 --> 00:42:44,455
Maybe just in Czech in general,

621
00:42:44,475 --> 00:42:47,075
because it seems like you guys have a lot of heavy hitters,

622
00:42:47,215 --> 00:42:49,455
a lot of big companies here right now.

623
00:42:49,555 --> 00:42:51,635
So, you know, how is the community here?

624
00:42:51,635 --> 00:42:55,475
and why do you think there's such a big, strong community in Prague specifically?

625
00:42:57,115 --> 00:42:58,035
I agree.

626
00:42:58,155 --> 00:43:00,015
We have these discussions even internally

627
00:43:00,015 --> 00:43:02,695
in our internal sort of all-in-s meetings, et cetera,

628
00:43:02,955 --> 00:43:08,575
and I think the overall reason that we kind of agree on

629
00:43:08,575 --> 00:43:11,215
might be because of the communism past, right?

630
00:43:11,235 --> 00:43:13,235
So we had the revolution and, let's say,

631
00:43:13,235 --> 00:43:19,995
the regime change from the communist to more capitalist sort of driven economy

632
00:43:19,995 --> 00:43:22,955
in the early 90s.

633
00:43:23,815 --> 00:43:27,915
And then you would have this sort of boom of, I think,

634
00:43:30,115 --> 00:43:32,295
of sort of conscious censorship

635
00:43:32,295 --> 00:43:36,055
and conscious stage-regulated bullshit.

636
00:43:36,935 --> 00:43:38,995
And obviously, again, free market maximalism,

637
00:43:39,175 --> 00:43:40,795
a lot of these companies.

638
00:43:40,955 --> 00:43:44,375
I mean, that's one of the big ethos in Bitcoin, right?

639
00:43:44,375 --> 00:43:46,555
So I think that might be a reason

640
00:43:46,555 --> 00:43:48,555
why a lot of entrepreneurs here basically

641
00:43:48,555 --> 00:43:50,015
would like to

642
00:43:50,015 --> 00:43:53,195
build companies and products

643
00:43:53,195 --> 00:43:55,055
exactly that are a bit against

644
00:43:55,055 --> 00:43:57,435
the centralization

645
00:43:57,435 --> 00:43:58,875
against the regime

646
00:43:58,875 --> 00:44:00,715
etc. So that's my

647
00:44:00,715 --> 00:44:03,275
thought

648
00:44:03,275 --> 00:44:05,155
or that would be my bet

649
00:44:05,155 --> 00:44:06,815
and then

650
00:44:06,815 --> 00:44:08,715
also very practically why

651
00:44:08,715 --> 00:44:10,575
so many Bitcoin companies

652
00:44:10,575 --> 00:44:12,875
recently or not recently actually

653
00:44:12,875 --> 00:44:14,595
in the years, I think honestly it's been

654
00:44:14,595 --> 00:44:16,695
because of also Cheser

655
00:44:16,695 --> 00:44:20,055
because it started some 11 years ago,

656
00:44:20,775 --> 00:44:22,735
started by two founders.

657
00:44:24,015 --> 00:44:25,715
One of the founders before, actually,

658
00:44:25,875 --> 00:44:29,575
he created the first mining pool as well.

659
00:44:31,575 --> 00:44:36,015
And from that, I would say it's almost like a Trezor mafia in a way,

660
00:44:36,195 --> 00:44:38,475
like as it was PayPal mafia, I think famously.

661
00:44:38,695 --> 00:44:42,215
It's like these companies that then there's a lot of spinoffs

662
00:44:42,215 --> 00:44:44,775
into other companies because in Satoshi Labs Holding,

663
00:44:44,775 --> 00:44:47,335
Trezor is one part of this

664
00:44:47,335 --> 00:44:49,675
group. We also have

665
00:44:49,675 --> 00:44:51,335
Inviti that is like

666
00:44:51,335 --> 00:44:53,535
onboarding new users

667
00:44:53,535 --> 00:44:55,275
into Bitcoin. We have Tropic Square

668
00:44:55,275 --> 00:44:56,095
creating

669
00:44:56,095 --> 00:44:59,195
a first auditable chip

670
00:44:59,195 --> 00:45:01,475
secure element and we have

671
00:45:01,475 --> 00:45:03,495
Vexel which is like a company

672
00:45:03,495 --> 00:45:05,495
that's an app

673
00:45:05,495 --> 00:45:06,655
that you can buy

674
00:45:06,655 --> 00:45:09,495
non-KYC Bitcoin from

675
00:45:09,495 --> 00:45:11,475
other users. So I would say

676
00:45:11,475 --> 00:45:13,715
it's almost like one idea sparks

677
00:45:13,715 --> 00:45:20,555
you know other ideas uh and i think success of uh specifically chaser and and you know the mining

678
00:45:20,555 --> 00:45:26,655
pools that one of the founders started has you know kind of created other opportunities and

679
00:45:26,655 --> 00:45:33,555
uh and also i think i hope i would like to i think it's that way but like um

680
00:45:33,555 --> 00:45:39,795
also because i think we try to do like things uh exactly an open source way and kind of

681
00:45:39,795 --> 00:45:43,555
transparently and how to say in like a nice,

682
00:45:44,555 --> 00:45:45,395
that's a bad word.

683
00:45:45,515 --> 00:45:46,635
I'm sorry, looking for the word,

684
00:45:46,735 --> 00:45:51,235
but like in a like very pro and very community driven way.

685
00:45:51,235 --> 00:45:51,555
Right.

686
00:45:51,655 --> 00:45:56,515
So we really care for our users for, for their feedback, et cetera.

687
00:45:56,675 --> 00:46:00,395
So, so yeah, I think in a way Bitcoin,

688
00:46:00,575 --> 00:46:03,635
sorry, Prague is kind of a Bitcoin capital of the world, I would say.

689
00:46:03,915 --> 00:46:04,195
Yeah.

690
00:46:04,295 --> 00:46:07,015
I mean, Hey, I, like I said, when I came over here,

691
00:46:07,015 --> 00:46:08,235
I was like pleasantly surprised.

692
00:46:08,235 --> 00:46:13,495
And I know of all of these companies, but I just never really thought, oh, this one's in Prague, this one's in Prague.

693
00:46:13,535 --> 00:46:18,775
And then you come out here and you're pleasantly surprised that there's so many different companies out here.

694
00:46:18,895 --> 00:46:21,635
But you mentioned the open source aspect of it.

695
00:46:21,815 --> 00:46:27,995
And I'm always kind of curious of how Bitcoiners, I guess business owners view it.

696
00:46:28,055 --> 00:46:33,215
Because the traditional fiat-minded businesses are like, hey, we got our secrets.

697
00:46:33,375 --> 00:46:34,155
We're going to keep them.

698
00:46:34,375 --> 00:46:35,315
We don't want to tell anybody.

699
00:46:35,315 --> 00:46:39,055
But the unique thing about the Bitcoin space is like, hey, here's our secrets.

700
00:46:39,055 --> 00:46:40,515
We're open sourcing everything.

701
00:46:40,975 --> 00:46:43,255
And I think that builds a lot of trust within the community.

702
00:46:43,495 --> 00:46:52,375
So how important do you think it is to, you know, do that in a Bitcoin space, especially be open source and just do that for the trust of the community?

703
00:46:52,375 --> 00:46:58,495
and just, you know, is there any obstacles that you felt that, you know, have maybe,

704
00:46:58,855 --> 00:47:04,095
you know, been a little different than traditional business where, you know, like I said,

705
00:47:04,155 --> 00:47:06,055
they kind of keep their secrets close.

706
00:47:06,935 --> 00:47:10,515
Just by creating open source products, it's, you know, a little bit different.

707
00:47:10,695 --> 00:47:15,375
So how do you view that as, you know, as a CEO in a Bitcoin company?

708
00:47:15,375 --> 00:47:21,175
I believe it's absolutely crucial for the security model that we have.

709
00:47:22,375 --> 00:47:34,795
I think it's very, very important for our even competitors, you know, basically any player in the industry to be able to check on what we are doing.

710
00:47:35,055 --> 00:47:39,175
You know, especially, I mean, we are talking about products that are holding your finances, right?

711
00:47:39,175 --> 00:47:44,915
The best place to buy Bitcoin in the United States and Canada is the Bitcoin Well.

712
00:47:44,915 --> 00:47:53,075
You can go to the bitcoinwell.com backslash green candle and sign up today and they will give you Wishing Well tokens.

713
00:47:53,495 --> 00:48:00,995
They are one of the only exchanges in the United States that will give you free sats every time you buy Bitcoin.

714
00:48:01,455 --> 00:48:05,175
You have a chance to win 1 million sats every time you buy.

715
00:48:05,455 --> 00:48:07,255
You get Wishing Well tokens.

716
00:48:07,475 --> 00:48:25,493
You flip the coin down the Wishing Well and you have the chance to win 1 million sats You heard me here folks One million sats And on top of that they have the absolute best over service where you can make purchases over

717
00:48:26,153 --> 00:48:30,513
and they will walk you through the whole thing. They have the best rates in the United States and

718
00:48:30,513 --> 00:48:35,733
in Canada. And on top of that, they have the best white glove service where they will take you

719
00:48:35,733 --> 00:48:42,233
through those giant purchases just so you feel comfortable you'll get it in cold storage and it's

720
00:48:42,233 --> 00:48:47,673
strictly non-custodial they are saying we want you to experience the true power of bitcoin and that's

721
00:48:47,673 --> 00:48:53,953
self-custody so go to the well sign up bitcoinwell.com backslash green candle today enough

722
00:48:53,953 --> 00:49:01,513
for me back to the show so so i think it's very yeah it's it's it's it's crucial uh i think we i

723
00:49:01,513 --> 00:49:04,293
I hope we inspired other companies to do it.

724
00:49:04,573 --> 00:49:06,893
I definitely can see it from other competitors

725
00:49:06,893 --> 00:49:09,533
being sort of more and more open source

726
00:49:09,533 --> 00:49:12,093
in places where they weren't in the past.

727
00:49:12,553 --> 00:49:14,693
I think the community also spoken in a way

728
00:49:14,693 --> 00:49:17,213
that they would like to see it.

729
00:49:17,573 --> 00:49:19,593
And we saw it in some events in the past

730
00:49:19,593 --> 00:49:22,753
that were happening with some launches of products

731
00:49:22,753 --> 00:49:24,473
that were maybe not fully open source.

732
00:49:25,113 --> 00:49:27,653
And I think, yeah, and the community let them know,

733
00:49:27,773 --> 00:49:28,713
let's put it that way.

734
00:49:30,333 --> 00:49:31,213
And I think it's good.

735
00:49:31,513 --> 00:49:38,953
you know and but yeah as a business owner or as a business uh sort of um as a business for us as a

736
00:49:38,953 --> 00:49:44,073
chaser of course it's interesting because exactly you say like uh you you could think okay why would

737
00:49:44,073 --> 00:49:50,313
you give it away right like because also by the nature of the open source license you can

738
00:49:51,033 --> 00:49:55,833
uh you know get inspired or almost like steal you know whatever others are working on and

739
00:49:55,833 --> 00:49:58,053
and implement it into your products.

740
00:49:58,053 --> 00:50:00,253
But again, ultimately, I believe that's better

741
00:50:00,253 --> 00:50:04,653
for the end customers, and that's the way things should be.

742
00:50:04,653 --> 00:50:07,813
And actually interoperability of our products

743
00:50:07,813 --> 00:50:12,413
is very important for, again, the customers.

744
00:50:12,413 --> 00:50:16,633
So for example, if we failed as a company in some way

745
00:50:16,633 --> 00:50:18,793
in terms of like, you know, we would say,

746
00:50:18,793 --> 00:50:20,093
okay, we don't want to work anymore,

747
00:50:20,093 --> 00:50:22,953
let's take 10 years holiday,

748
00:50:22,953 --> 00:50:24,893
then the products that you are using,

749
00:50:24,893 --> 00:50:30,733
the backup for example that we created the BIP39 which stands for Bitcoin improvement proposal

750
00:50:30,733 --> 00:50:37,433
that's the underlining sort of standard of the way you backup your keys that has been used by

751
00:50:37,433 --> 00:50:42,373
the whole industry by the way not just hardware world but also software world if we stopped

752
00:50:42,373 --> 00:50:49,493
existing as a company you could still use these you could still take that backup and put it into

753
00:50:49,493 --> 00:50:54,313
our direct competitor hardware world and it would work it would recreate you would recover your keys

754
00:50:54,313 --> 00:51:01,393
right so it's quite important right so and again by nature of open sourceness and open source

755
00:51:01,393 --> 00:51:08,093
more companies can join the space and and build on top of what we are building as i mean we did

756
00:51:08,093 --> 00:51:12,733
with bitcoin right like bitcoin is open source as well and that's uh that's the really important

757
00:51:12,733 --> 00:51:16,873
aspect of it yeah i think that's the beauty of it right i mean it's almost like everybody's trying

758
00:51:16,873 --> 00:51:22,593
to help each other out um you know and and that custody aspect is is extremely important and

759
00:51:22,593 --> 00:51:27,093
feeling comfortable with that, right? Because I think that just brings another level of,

760
00:51:27,173 --> 00:51:32,493
I guess, security when you're doing these things, right? Because, you know, I don't think very many

761
00:51:32,493 --> 00:51:36,613
people know, like when you have your money in the bank, it's really not yours, right? I mean,

762
00:51:36,953 --> 00:51:42,553
I'm not exactly a high roller, but like, say I had $100,000 in a bank account, and I wanted to go

763
00:51:42,553 --> 00:51:47,033
get that out in cash right now, you can't necessarily do that, right? Because you go there,

764
00:51:47,153 --> 00:51:50,733
they're going to ask you a million questions, you realize, hey, that money isn't really yours.

765
00:51:50,733 --> 00:51:55,133
But then when you get to Bitcoin, you hold it in self-custody.

766
00:51:55,553 --> 00:51:56,693
You realize, hey, you know what?

767
00:51:56,753 --> 00:51:58,073
I can use a treasure.

768
00:51:58,253 --> 00:52:04,373
And then maybe they decide, hey, I'm going to go sit back, drink some Czech beers for 10 years and just hang out.

769
00:52:04,553 --> 00:52:07,332
And then you still have that access to that Bitcoin.

770
00:52:08,133 --> 00:52:11,793
So I think the open source and the community aspect is very big.

771
00:52:11,793 --> 00:52:16,993
but you know here in Prague we touched on it a little bit briefly about the community and kind of

772
00:52:16,993 --> 00:52:22,753
the the treasure mafia as it's uh as it's uh you know kind of talked about here but it seems like

773
00:52:22,753 --> 00:52:30,313
the community is very strong uh here in Prague and and everywhere else and uh in Europe uh

774
00:52:30,313 --> 00:52:35,393
specifically and it's kind of centered here so you you know you touched on a little bit about

775
00:52:35,393 --> 00:52:41,293
the companies being built here um but how how do you how do you view the community and like kind of

776
00:52:41,293 --> 00:52:46,893
embracing it is there any like unique aspects that you think uh you know are are pretty unique

777
00:52:46,893 --> 00:52:52,173
to just being here in prague uh that you haven't necessarily seen anywhere else

778
00:52:52,173 --> 00:53:01,273
i'm not sure whether there are some specifics um i think maybe we are a bit more like a

779
00:53:01,273 --> 00:53:05,993
taking it on very individual level i think we are very very how to say like a private

780
00:53:05,993 --> 00:53:07,953
people in a way.

781
00:53:08,073 --> 00:53:09,933
We don't really...

782
00:53:09,933 --> 00:53:11,913
It was shocking to me. I went to Bitcoin

783
00:53:11,913 --> 00:53:13,813
Amsterdam last year.

784
00:53:13,913 --> 00:53:15,093
I think it was two years ago.

785
00:53:16,073 --> 00:53:17,773
And I don't know if you've been to

786
00:53:17,773 --> 00:53:19,852
Amsterdam, but... No, I haven't been to Amsterdam

787
00:53:19,852 --> 00:53:21,893
before. Look, so you need to see

788
00:53:21,893 --> 00:53:23,852
this online. I bet you will find

789
00:53:23,852 --> 00:53:25,253
some information about it.

790
00:53:25,713 --> 00:53:28,133
It's amazing. You walk on a street

791
00:53:28,133 --> 00:53:30,013
and you have like these

792
00:53:30,013 --> 00:53:31,573
I don't know, two, three store

793
00:53:31,573 --> 00:53:33,332
buildings or something.

794
00:53:33,493 --> 00:53:35,573
Three floors. Maybe two floors even.

795
00:53:35,993 --> 00:53:38,193
and you have like these tiny streets

796
00:53:38,193 --> 00:53:40,133
and these like little water canals, it's beautiful.

797
00:53:40,352 --> 00:53:41,893
And then you walk there at night

798
00:53:41,893 --> 00:53:46,873
and all the like buildings have their,

799
00:53:47,453 --> 00:53:49,352
the windows are basically not covered

800
00:53:49,352 --> 00:53:51,213
by any like sheet or anything.

801
00:53:51,213 --> 00:53:53,233
So you can see exactly what the people are doing,

802
00:53:53,313 --> 00:53:56,053
you know, in the ground floors, right?

803
00:53:56,053 --> 00:53:57,873
So they would be like watching TV,

804
00:53:58,273 --> 00:54:01,332
like one meter from you, like walking on the street

805
00:54:01,332 --> 00:54:03,433
and they would not like cover the windows, for example.

806
00:54:03,773 --> 00:54:05,673
So it was like really interesting for me to see that.

807
00:54:05,993 --> 00:54:09,273
And I think for us as Czech people, it's exactly the opposite.

808
00:54:09,573 --> 00:54:13,113
Like we would, like if you, if somebody could saw you from the street,

809
00:54:13,193 --> 00:54:15,453
like you would cover it, you know, the last, you know,

810
00:54:15,493 --> 00:54:17,352
like inch of the window or something.

811
00:54:18,213 --> 00:54:20,233
And I feel like maybe that's something where,

812
00:54:20,413 --> 00:54:23,913
why like people are interested in, you know,

813
00:54:23,973 --> 00:54:25,413
Bitcoin and self-custody in general,

814
00:54:25,453 --> 00:54:28,693
because they, it's like their own little, like dirty secret, you know,

815
00:54:28,693 --> 00:54:31,573
like, and they like to talk about it maybe with their friends,

816
00:54:31,573 --> 00:54:34,373
but they're not, you know, it's like,

817
00:54:34,373 --> 00:54:41,033
they're not like boasting about it and as maybe some um you know traditional uh traders would do

818
00:54:41,033 --> 00:54:45,473
or something right so maybe it's a stupid analogy i don't know but like but it's just like i think

819
00:54:45,473 --> 00:54:50,773
we are kind of like private in a way so and i think there are some properties of bitcoin where

820
00:54:50,773 --> 00:54:57,453
yeah you make it as your little yeah secret yeah no i mean i understand and you were talking a

821
00:54:57,453 --> 00:55:02,033
little bit but before uh on the car ride over here about a little bit about your personal life

822
00:55:02,033 --> 00:55:06,173
with me. So I want to dive into that because I think it's unique kind of how you use Bitcoin to

823
00:55:06,173 --> 00:55:10,293
be, you know, like live a little bit more free. You talked about paragliding in the commercial

824
00:55:10,293 --> 00:55:14,373
that you made with that. How did you even get into that? How are you like, all right, you know

825
00:55:14,373 --> 00:55:20,393
what, I'm going to go jump off a mountain and fly off with a parachute because, you know, that seems

826
00:55:20,393 --> 00:55:24,953
a little crazy. I mean, I've jumped out of planes. So I mean, maybe I'm crazy too. And every Bitcoiner

827
00:55:24,953 --> 00:55:29,213
has a little bit of craziness to them. But how did you decide to get into paragliding specifically?

828
00:55:29,213 --> 00:55:31,832
interesting I think it's going back to the freedom

829
00:55:31,832 --> 00:55:33,933
honestly I love mountain

830
00:55:33,933 --> 00:55:35,593
sports in general like I'm

831
00:55:35,593 --> 00:55:37,753
a climber and mountaineer I love

832
00:55:37,753 --> 00:55:40,093
you know like the freedom of the hills

833
00:55:40,093 --> 00:55:41,673
as there's this famous book

834
00:55:41,673 --> 00:55:44,173
the same name so I exactly

835
00:55:44,173 --> 00:55:45,273
love this like feeling

836
00:55:45,273 --> 00:55:48,093
and I mean flying I mean what can

837
00:55:48,093 --> 00:55:49,953
what can be better you know like if you

838
00:55:49,953 --> 00:55:51,373
climb the whole day

839
00:55:51,373 --> 00:55:53,513
all the way up there and then

840
00:55:53,513 --> 00:55:56,013
I mean instead of walking down

841
00:55:56,013 --> 00:55:57,993
you can just fly down in like maybe 20

842
00:55:57,993 --> 00:55:59,993
minutes and it's amazing and actually

843
00:55:59,993 --> 00:56:01,973
you can do also cross-country flying and

844
00:56:01,973 --> 00:56:04,013
paragliding so you can fly

845
00:56:04,013 --> 00:56:05,913
long distances like 100

846
00:56:05,913 --> 00:56:07,273
miles for example. Oh my god.

847
00:56:07,273 --> 00:56:09,873
All those things are possible

848
00:56:09,873 --> 00:56:11,313
because you use the terminals

849
00:56:11,313 --> 00:56:13,993
and imagine

850
00:56:13,993 --> 00:56:16,113
the views right? So it's so amazing

851
00:56:16,113 --> 00:56:16,753
so beautiful.

852
00:56:17,453 --> 00:56:20,133
So I just love that and I think it's about

853
00:56:20,133 --> 00:56:22,193
freedom. Bitcoin is about freedom so I think

854
00:56:22,193 --> 00:56:24,373
that's not exactly a coincidence

855
00:56:24,373 --> 00:56:25,832
that I mean

856
00:56:25,832 --> 00:56:27,873
I love working on Chaser

857
00:56:27,873 --> 00:56:30,453
and building our products and also these kind of things.

858
00:56:30,993 --> 00:56:33,933
And specifically in the commercial, that was the idea of our marketing team.

859
00:56:34,173 --> 00:56:35,953
So it was just like they approached me and I was like,

860
00:56:36,113 --> 00:56:39,273
okay, I hope I don't kill myself, but let's do it.

861
00:56:40,332 --> 00:56:43,413
Well, what's the coolest story that you have from doing that?

862
00:56:43,533 --> 00:56:45,013
I mean, I know you said you love to hike,

863
00:56:45,013 --> 00:56:49,153
but have you done any of these cross-country types of paragliding,

864
00:56:49,332 --> 00:56:51,453
I guess missions is what we could call it here?

865
00:56:52,352 --> 00:56:57,332
Yeah, I mean, one of my most beautiful flights was actually

866
00:56:57,332 --> 00:56:59,873
in Switzerland, it was close to

867
00:56:59,873 --> 00:57:00,773
100 kilometers.

868
00:57:01,513 --> 00:57:03,533
It would be like 70 miles,

869
00:57:03,673 --> 00:57:04,953
60 miles, something like this.

870
00:57:06,332 --> 00:57:07,593
And yeah, you could

871
00:57:07,593 --> 00:57:09,832
get all the way up to 4,200

872
00:57:09,832 --> 00:57:11,413
meters. So that would be what?

873
00:57:12,133 --> 00:57:13,973
12,000 feet

874
00:57:13,973 --> 00:57:15,233
or something like this, this high.

875
00:57:15,733 --> 00:57:17,113
So one of the, so yeah,

876
00:57:17,193 --> 00:57:19,613
it's absolutely amazing. Because when you have

877
00:57:19,613 --> 00:57:21,773
a high cloud base, that's where the

878
00:57:21,773 --> 00:57:23,513
thermos go all the way up to the cloud.

879
00:57:24,013 --> 00:57:25,852
Then you can really fly this high

880
00:57:25,852 --> 00:57:28,533
the whole day, all the beautiful mountains, beautiful mountains.

881
00:57:30,033 --> 00:57:34,753
Yeah, so that was probably one of the most beautiful days I had.

882
00:57:35,133 --> 00:57:36,493
Yeah, so you've got that.

883
00:57:36,593 --> 00:57:41,873
And then I heard a rumbling that you're going to be playing at a show tonight here for the Treasure team.

884
00:57:42,053 --> 00:57:44,533
So how did you get into the music aspect, too?

885
00:57:44,573 --> 00:57:46,593
Because it seems like there's a lot of layers to you, man.

886
00:57:46,633 --> 00:57:49,933
You're not just the shadowy super coder of most Bitcoiners.

887
00:57:49,933 --> 00:57:52,053
So what instrument do you play?

888
00:57:52,393 --> 00:57:55,832
And yeah, how did you get into the music industry?

889
00:57:55,852 --> 00:58:00,073
Yeah, so music was my original career, actually, in a way, you could say.

890
00:58:00,513 --> 00:58:05,453
I actually started playing as a child, you know, when I was maybe seven, six.

891
00:58:05,633 --> 00:58:08,413
I started playing guitar, and then I went to music schools.

892
00:58:09,213 --> 00:58:15,253
But then I was interested in many other things, so that's why, you know, I like tech as well.

893
00:58:15,253 --> 00:58:22,673
I started to like tech, and generally managing projects, et cetera, and some entrepreneurship and endeavors as well.

894
00:58:22,673 --> 00:58:30,313
but yeah so I play guitar and play bass guitar and we will play at the party tonight with my band

895
00:58:30,313 --> 00:58:35,533
there we go do you see any parallels between the music like kind of like learning music and going

896
00:58:35,533 --> 00:58:42,473
through that as like almost like the entrepreneurship game and you know almost the bitcoin space do you

897
00:58:42,473 --> 00:58:49,193
see any parallels from there maybe not necessarily with the bitcoin space specifically but and as in

898
00:58:49,193 --> 00:58:55,113
entrepreneurship and maybe like a building company for sure because it was completely normal for me

899
00:58:55,113 --> 00:59:01,933
to practice eight ten hours a day like i and i by a day i mean including weekends all the time so but

900
00:59:01,933 --> 00:59:06,973
whenever i could play i would play when i was from the age of i don't know like maybe

901
00:59:06,973 --> 00:59:13,893
10 to 20 you know for 10 years maybe i was doing that really really quite a lot and i think that

902
00:59:13,893 --> 00:59:16,553
teaches you some discipline, I guess.

903
00:59:16,832 --> 00:59:17,793
And in a way, it's like,

904
00:59:18,852 --> 00:59:20,813
because first maybe you see some piece

905
00:59:20,813 --> 00:59:21,953
that you would like to learn

906
00:59:21,953 --> 00:59:23,813
or you would like to play

907
00:59:23,813 --> 00:59:26,373
and it's like so hard, so difficult,

908
00:59:26,473 --> 00:59:27,013
like technically,

909
00:59:27,593 --> 00:59:28,493
and then you realize,

910
00:59:28,673 --> 00:59:29,713
okay, if I put in the harvest,

911
00:59:29,933 --> 00:59:33,873
it will actually yield the results.

912
00:59:34,473 --> 00:59:35,993
So I think that's,

913
00:59:36,393 --> 00:59:39,973
I'm maybe not the smartest for sure.

914
00:59:39,973 --> 00:59:41,253
I'm not, you know,

915
00:59:41,253 --> 00:59:47,713
the, how to say maybe the fastest in a way, but I think I can like, uh, suffer through some, some

916
00:59:47,713 --> 00:59:53,073
work, you know, uh, and like good suffering in a way. It's like, I enjoy the process, but I know

917
00:59:53,073 --> 00:59:58,133
like you need to kind of be patient to get results. So, yeah, it's unique. You, you kind of, kind of

918
00:59:58,133 --> 01:00:02,953
said that cause I've been teetering with this idea for a while that I think if you become, you know,

919
01:00:02,953 --> 01:00:07,633
if you're passionate about something, almost like the point of like obsessed, maybe that has a bad

920
01:00:07,633 --> 01:00:11,593
connotation, but like almost like you're so obsessed with something, you know, you're going

921
01:00:11,593 --> 01:00:15,393
to spend so much time, you're going to figure it out eventually. So I feel like that's, you know,

922
01:00:15,433 --> 01:00:19,832
how a lot of Bitcoiners, when they had that aha moment, that's how they kind of got into it.

923
01:00:19,832 --> 01:00:25,832
And then same with like music, sports, maybe some other things. So yeah, it brings me back,

924
01:00:25,933 --> 01:00:31,093
you know, you have the music aspect, you have the adventurous aspects. How did you find Bitcoin?

925
01:00:31,233 --> 01:00:34,933
How did you get into all this? And then be crazy enough to be like, you know what,

926
01:00:34,933 --> 01:00:37,073
I want to be a CEO of a Bitcoin company.

927
01:00:37,613 --> 01:00:38,933
I think it's, I mean,

928
01:00:40,513 --> 01:00:43,573
the beginnings are fairly boring in a way that I just,

929
01:00:43,852 --> 01:00:48,073
I saw this ad in the, you know, like a job post.

930
01:00:48,153 --> 01:00:50,773
And I was like, wow, I want to be like a product manager.

931
01:00:50,913 --> 01:00:53,693
And this company doesn't have a product management role yet.

932
01:00:53,693 --> 01:00:56,553
So I would like to do that because there's a lot of unknowns.

933
01:00:56,693 --> 01:00:58,773
But I knew at the time, six years ago,

934
01:00:58,773 --> 01:01:01,153
I knew like I love building products.

935
01:01:01,273 --> 01:01:02,573
I love building companies in a way.

936
01:01:02,573 --> 01:01:07,773
I like this kind of entrepreneurial challenge to it.

937
01:01:08,332 --> 01:01:10,893
And that's exactly, I think, what Trezor needed back then.

938
01:01:10,973 --> 01:01:13,893
We were a fairly small team, and there was a lot of things

939
01:01:13,893 --> 01:01:16,673
that we had to improve from product, but also marketing,

940
01:01:17,113 --> 01:01:19,793
you know, like organizational things, such as, you know,

941
01:01:19,852 --> 01:01:21,193
developing the teams, et cetera.

942
01:01:22,113 --> 01:01:26,193
And that's why when I came in, and I really, really enjoyed it,

943
01:01:26,233 --> 01:01:29,193
and I think I have been working quite hard, you know,

944
01:01:29,193 --> 01:01:35,913
like to exactly as I said, like I put in the hours and, uh, and I think it was important. And then

945
01:01:35,913 --> 01:01:43,753
yeah, again, like I got obsessed with it a hundred percent. Uh, and, uh, and I still love it. So

946
01:01:43,753 --> 01:01:48,613
that's awesome stuff. Well, one last question before we let you go, what are you looking forward

947
01:01:48,613 --> 01:01:52,773
to or like anything else? What was one thing that stuck out to you from this weekend here at,

948
01:01:52,773 --> 01:01:53,733
at Bitcoin Prague?

949
01:01:54,613 --> 01:02:00,033
Yeah, so I yesterday specifically went to this corporate day

950
01:02:00,033 --> 01:02:02,173
that was outside of this main venue.

951
01:02:03,332 --> 01:02:06,673
But yeah, I was surprised how, I mean, a lot of companies

952
01:02:06,673 --> 01:02:09,553
are basically now discussing the Bitcoin treasury

953
01:02:09,553 --> 01:02:10,953
as their strategy.

954
01:02:11,113 --> 01:02:15,153
So I think that that was kind of, yeah, new for me,

955
01:02:15,153 --> 01:02:18,273
but also quite far from what we are trying to do in a way.

956
01:02:18,852 --> 01:02:20,873
So as we discussed at the beginning,

957
01:02:20,873 --> 01:02:24,453
I mean, worries me is probably too strong of a word

958
01:02:24,453 --> 01:02:26,832
because it totally makes sense, right?

959
01:02:26,973 --> 01:02:29,852
I just like, it's just a bit, how to say,

960
01:02:30,573 --> 01:02:34,253
not applicable to what we are trying to do.

961
01:02:34,593 --> 01:02:37,773
Like, I mean, it's applicable for us as a company, for sure.

962
01:02:38,413 --> 01:02:40,473
But for the products that we are trying to build,

963
01:02:40,852 --> 01:02:42,393
it's kind of, yeah, not applicable.

964
01:02:42,573 --> 01:02:44,133
We are here for the retail investors,

965
01:02:44,352 --> 01:02:45,473
for the individual users,

966
01:02:45,893 --> 01:02:50,193
for the users that value their privacy and security

967
01:02:50,193 --> 01:02:53,733
and that want to store their Bitcoin directly,

968
01:02:53,993 --> 01:02:54,953
as they should, I believe.

969
01:02:55,213 --> 01:02:55,973
Yeah, 100%.

970
01:02:55,973 --> 01:02:59,513
So where could the users who are now looking for something with Trezor,

971
01:02:59,513 --> 01:03:01,393
where can they go find out more about Trezor

972
01:03:01,393 --> 01:03:03,013
and maybe even more about you?

973
01:03:03,873 --> 01:03:06,473
So trezor.io is our website,

974
01:03:06,653 --> 01:03:09,573
so we definitely recommend purchasing products

975
01:03:09,573 --> 01:03:11,733
and learning about products and purchasing them there.

976
01:03:11,933 --> 01:03:16,133
We also have a pretty good YouTube channel now

977
01:03:16,133 --> 01:03:18,513
and on our socials.

978
01:03:18,513 --> 01:03:22,553
Kudos to our wonderful media team because, yeah,

979
01:03:22,693 --> 01:03:25,453
the quality of our videos, I think, are now, like, amazing.

980
01:03:26,153 --> 01:03:29,153
So I believe a lot of people can appreciate it,

981
01:03:29,233 --> 01:03:31,832
like the way we talk about the product.

982
01:03:31,832 --> 01:03:35,352
And it's almost like these little movies now.

983
01:03:35,453 --> 01:03:37,713
So I think I'm quite happy with that.

984
01:03:37,953 --> 01:03:39,832
So definitely our YouTube channel and our socials.

985
01:03:40,813 --> 01:03:44,852
And me specifically, I'm on Twitter, on X, on LinkedIn,

986
01:03:45,173 --> 01:03:47,713
but I'm not huge on social media, to be honest.

987
01:03:47,713 --> 01:03:49,533
All right, well, we'll find Jim.

988
01:03:49,673 --> 01:03:50,793
We'll link it all in the show notes.

989
01:03:50,973 --> 01:03:54,973
And yeah, you guys have a great studio here and have an amazing team.

990
01:03:55,093 --> 01:03:56,753
So you're doing an outstanding job.

991
01:03:56,933 --> 01:04:00,253
And yeah, thanks so much for having me and look forward to hanging out with you more.

992
01:04:00,693 --> 01:04:01,332
Thanks for having me.

993
01:04:02,153 --> 01:04:06,733
Thank you guys all for tuning in to another great episode of the State of Bitcoin podcast.

994
01:04:07,133 --> 01:04:11,093
If you found some value in this one, please hit that subscribe button and that like button

995
01:04:11,093 --> 01:04:12,493
to help send this one to the masses.

996
01:04:12,713 --> 01:04:14,013
And I've got a surprise for you guys.

997
01:04:14,013 --> 01:04:17,352
I've got two more episodes that you have the chance to watch here.

998
01:04:17,352 --> 01:04:20,373
So go ahead and click one of them and I'll see you guys all at the next one.