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If you see the biggest players in the world taking huge positions, and not only just that,

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like JP Morgan is trying to sell you picks and shovels, at some point in time, not only are they

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going to let it rip if they're trying to suppress it, they're going to leverage it to the hilt to

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make themselves wealthy in the process as well too. If you have an asset 10 times the size of

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Bitcoin, that can just absolutely rip from $2,000 to $4,000. What, you don't think Bitcoin could

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easily go from 100 to 200, 100 to 400.

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You don't think that Bitcoin could go from 100 to a million?

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You know exactly what they're going to do is just turn on the taps and just flood the system.

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And where do you think that's going to go?

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It would not shock me to see that we go from like 80k to 800.

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Like a 10x is not out of the realm for Bitcoin.

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It's totally within the norm.

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What's up, guys?

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70,000 of you guys keep coming back every single month,

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but 71% are not subscribed. So you're going to miss out on some of the great green candle content.

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So make sure that you're hitting that subscribe button with the bell notification so you get

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notified every time I drop a video. All right, now let's get back into this great interview.

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Bing bong. I am back with another edition of the State of Bitcoin podcast where I've got the man,

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the myth, the legend, Nathan of the BTC Mentor. But Nate, last time we talked,

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We were going deep into the coordinated attack from Wall Street against MSTR.

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Michael Saylor is over in MENA as we speak, talking to potentially some of these sovereign wealth funds in Abu Dhabi and others who have been linked to Bitcoin.

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There's been rumblings of a secret whale that is now FOMOing into Bitcoin.

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So what do you think with all of this noise coming in on these big giant players now figuring Bitcoin out?

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man i think that this is always going to happen it probably already has been happening in the

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shadows like there's no way that this has been like we're what we're on like year 16 right now

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2009 we do the quick math it's there's no way that the people haven't been strategically taking

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positions even they don't want to get out there like sailor and do it publicly so i'm not surprised

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to see energy rich countries i think they're going to be first and foremost the biggest players in

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that space so it makes sense for like saudi arabia uae all these guys to start stacking in their

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sovereign wealth fund particularly when there's growing concerns surrounding treasuries we see

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that a lot of foreign countries are divesting from treasuries. China's going all in on gold.

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And it doesn't mean that they're completely getting rid of them, not buying any at all,

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but they're looking for other alternatives. So why wouldn't you necessarily hedge your best?

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But I got to tell you, man, the one thing that's just jumping out me lately is that

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we're coming up in the end of the year. We're coming up in the end of 2025, which is coming

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up on basically the end of what should have been another cycle here. And it really didn't feel like

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one at this point in time. But the thing that struck me this morning when I was looking at,

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I believe, a sailor bought like almost another billion dollars of Bitcoin is that, Brandon,

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and I want to get your take on this too. Nobody blew up this year. There hasn't been an FTX or

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a Mt. Gox. There hasn't been a major exchange or a major hack. There hasn't been that catastrophic

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moment where we're reminded of the lesson of not your keys, not your coins. And I wonder what

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that's ultimately done to sentiment as well as I worry that that lesson is getting lost here.

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So I love seeing the hype that's going on over there right now, but I worry that everyone is

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getting way too comfortable in trad fi now i'm not saying that any of these guys are necessarily

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a bad actor but like if there's not one in the space right now there will be someone's going to

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make that mistake i don't think we're past the point that we never see another hack or blow up

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or somebody was rehypothecating like it's not that like all those times are done there will never be

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another another ftx and i worry with all the excitement because i think you're right i think

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the bigger players are getting in they're going to stack in their sovereign wealth fund and i think

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for most normies most people that are just maybe tiptoeing into bitcoin they're stacking in like

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a Roth IRA, right? They're stacking it in their brokerage account. And I almost worry that we're

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getting way too comfortable with large centralized entities holding on to vast amounts of Bitcoin

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and everybody just buying their share or their stock instead of actually holding it themselves.

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I don't know. What do you think about that, man? Yeah. I mean, I definitely think it's an

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interesting point there. And I think that the treasury company is kind of coming all in.

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It has been a worry of mine for quite some time. I mean, there were 64 when Trump got elected last

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year and now there's like just under 210. So, I mean, we've seen over a 3x here in a short order.

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And I mean, I think that all these players, I mean, me and you, Nate, could come together and

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form a company and then get, you know, probably 2, 3, maybe even 5x the amount that normally we

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could get just from walking into a bank. And we would use that to buy Bitcoin. Granted, hopefully

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we could afford to, you know, pay that debt obligation off. But I mean, with Bitcoin crashing

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now too. I think a lot of these Bitcoin treasury companies that have come on are underwater right

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now. You see a lot of these that came in, just did one smash buy, kind of tried to do it for

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their stocks. And their stocks went up immediately. And then now they're all kind of almost looking

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like meme coins, except for MSTR maybe. But they're trying to play the game and essentially

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do the same things that MicroStrategy is doing. But the difference is MicroStrategy has over

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650,000 Bitcoin and the next closest has 50,000. So it's literally a difference of 600,000 Bitcoin.

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So, you know, I think that's potentially going to be maybe not as colossal as the FTX collapse,

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but I could definitely see a few of those companies starting to go belly up. And,

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you know, I think over time, it is something that is worrisome to me because I think last time we

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spoke, I was telling you, the dip, you see a lot of the wallets with 10 million sats, honestly,

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sell off Bitcoin during a dip when you would hope the retail would start to come in and buy.

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And then you see the number of institutions with 1,000 just go parabolic. So what are you seeing

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out there? Do you think that a lot of these plebs or these big players that are just starting to

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come in are the ones that are selling off? Or do you think, you know, maybe it's the OGs that are

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that are selling that's kind of been that narrative for this entire cycle?

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I think there's got two things at play here. And one is like pretty speculative. So we know that

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some of the large, like the OGs were selling, we can see on chain that like really old wallets were

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moving large amounts of old coins, which makes perfect sense, right? I mean, you've been the

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space for a long time, you've held on for this long, of course, you're going to have that moment

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of like maybe you want the lifestyle change it's also you might want to even de-risk to some extent

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which again i'm not saying that bitcoin is in any way a risk asset it is the trustless the least

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risk ask it that you can hold however if you're holding on to like tens of billions of dollars

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of bitcoin and that is in any way public knowledge you might have a bit of a target on your back so

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i could see like you'd be like you know what i got 10 billion or i got 100 billion of bitcoin

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maybe i can just live off eight or seven and i'll pay for some additional security i could see that

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that being a motivation to, again, purely from the lifestyle standpoint, because I mean, we touched

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on it last time, but Bitcoin, you don't want for itself. You want it for the things that it can

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provide for you and your family. So maybe those guys want to provide something for their family

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other than actually holding onto the Bitcoin. And I'm sure they did not peel off all of their

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stacks. So I think that a lot of the selling is coming from OGs. And the other one that I worry

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about, particularly as we're seeing like price corrections, these treasury companies underwater

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is centralization within the traditional finance system. And what I mean by that is we all know

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that like we've seen like I know HSBC has had to pay out tons of fines and JP Morgan has had to pay

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out tons of fines like these traditional financial players they do some sneaky shady shit they always

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have and when they get caught they just pay for it's a pay-to-play system right it's not that

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no one at JP Morgan is ever going to jail they might just have to have a fine that was 10% of

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the profits they made doing that shady stuff so with that one of the things that I do worry about

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kind of going back to that self-custody aspect because really that's how we keep everybody in

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check that's how you actually protect yourself at the end of the day is that something along the

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lines of Bitcoin's hurting. Now, if you've got a large centralized pool of Bitcoin, you can be

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damn sure that they're manipulating the price. I don't know how effective they're going to be at it,

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but they've got way more information than you do. They've got way more capital to deploy behind it.

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You've got all the derivatives now built on top of it. I can guarantee that if they're trying to

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take a position or trying to help somebody, one of their clients or somebody take a position,

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why not take a stab at pushing it down? Go for those liquidations. That just gives more Bitcoin

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to them. And I worry that with the treasury companies, the ones outside of strategy that

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are starting to hurt, they're going to see all those basically just get gobbled up by the big

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entities, by like the Cantor Fitzgeralds, by the JP Morgans, by the Black Rocks, right?

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That they're going to basically scoop in and buy them at the distressed, which is going to

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concentrate more of that Bitcoin purchasing power within those traditional financial units,

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giving them even more ammunition to try and manipulate the price. Because I don't know about

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you, but I'm still incredibly bullish, even in the medium term, give me three to six months,

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I think we are absolutely off to the races. I don't think the current price action is really

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reflective of sentiment or anything fundamental to Bitcoin. I do think that there was maybe some

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stop loss hunting that was going on there that we had people getting taken out for taking on too

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much leverage, which is again, that's the old, old lesson. Guys, do not take leverage with your

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Bitcoin. Just don't do it. I've seen too many people get absolutely wiped out over the years.

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And even during the last correction, I had people that I was getting calls from that were getting

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margin called that thought they were way in the clear when we were at a buck 20 80 was like it's

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not gonna happen there's no way that's going to be an issue and sure enough it absolutely was don't

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make it easy for the old players that we're trying to take out here to take your bitcoin that's what

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i'm trying to essentially get is that well it's so exciting to see these news they are taking

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positions they're going to fuck with things and they can do it in the short term they absolutely

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can't not in the long term not even necessarily in the medium term and also at some point in time

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they're just going to want to pump their own bags. But ultimately, as much as for the past year,

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I've been so stoked on the sovereign adoption, I'm a little more hesitant. And it's only because I

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feel that we haven't had that pain point to remember those important lessons. We may have

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strayed off the beaten path a little bit away from South Kosti. Look, if Saudi Arabia wants to

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pump my bags, absolutely go for it. It's money for enemies. But I want everybody else to be in

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the same position where they actually have their money, they control their money, and then they can

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benefit from the battle between the different sovereigns and giant transnationalist financial

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companies trying to get in on something years later. Yeah. And the crazy thing is, these guys

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have just endless bags. It's not just billions, it's trillions at this point. So I think it's

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going to be very interesting to how it's playing out. But I've got a little bit of theory here,

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Nathan. I'm curious. I haven't really talked to too many people about it now, but I was just doing

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some reflecting here the other day. And I honestly don't think we've really had a bull market, so to

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speak, here in maybe since 2017. Because in 2020 and 21, obviously, we saw the crash with their

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Cervasus sickness or COVID. Everybody knows what happened there. But we also had FTX, which you

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mentioned the big blow up. And, you know, it was pretty obvious that they were selling, you know,

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paper Bitcoin to their clients. So one, like, you know, the demand that we were seeing wasn't even

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as much as really the buying pressure that was going. And then two, we saw that blow up happen.

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And that probably more than likely cut it pretty short because it started that effect of not only

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the Celsius, but the block fives, the, or not only the FTX, but the Celsius block fives and all these

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others kind of starting that domino effect of all of them starting to fall. And then, you know,

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of course, we had a lot of FUD around Bitcoin at that time too. So it just kind of delayed

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that overall bull run. So I think last cycle, we probably could have gotten different dynamics.

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And then this cycle, we also have now these big players that you're lining out, right? BlackRock,

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JP Morgan, all of these bankers now coming in. And JP Morgan has been known to manipulate markets.

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And now all of a sudden, they're flipping it on its head.

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We went over how they potentially are manipulating MSTR and all the crazy things going on with the Treasury companies.

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But I wouldn't be surprised at this point if now that all of a sudden they're releasing these Bitcoin bonds right as Bitcoin falls like 30%, 40%.

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I mean, it seems a little coincidental timing.

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So do you think that the four-year cycle is, I guess, kind of a moot point at this point?

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And do you think that we've actually seen a bull run here in the past, what, like seven years or so?

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No, there hasn't necessarily been a bull run.

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There's been a little bit more.

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There's a little more excitement in 2021, but I don't think we've actually seen a bull run.

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I would agree with that sentiment.

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It hasn't felt like one.

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And we were kind of making excuses for it along the way.

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We kind of justified the China mining ban in terms of why we got this double top

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and it got legs cut out from underneath because everyone was expecting, myself included,

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to hit six figures the last cycle.

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And then this one, we barely did.

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so even if i take that if i let's say i grant the china mining and the ftx took the legs out from

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under the previous cycle that we would have otherwise maybe hit around 100k well then to

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say like 120 was a bull run the next way around like what 20 up from that position that just

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doesn't intuitively make sense to me so i'm i'm with you there i think that 2017 absolutely was

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a bull run 2021 was probably more a reflection of what was going on in terms of covid like

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everything online was getting pumped at that point in time. It wasn't really a, it wasn't,

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how do you find a way to phrase this? I don't think it was just related to Bitcoin in terms

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of the price action that we saw there. So for example, right around the COVID era, YouTube,

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that was absolutely in its heyday. And of course it was because everyone was stuck at home glued

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to their phones. And so you've got to like wonder, like take, try it. You can't take the negative and

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actually know, but like, if we never got locked down, if people weren't glued to their phones the

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whole time, would retail have even had any idea about Bitcoin? I think it would look a lot more

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like what we see today where I'm not getting questions from like cab drivers and cousins and

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random people on the street that I'm not seeing that euphoria in the no-coiner space, the pre-coiner

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space. I think the only reason that we had this excitement, it had all this attention on it at

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the moment, is because one, everyone was just bored out of their minds, stuck on their screen,

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living digitally, and it gave us this artificial pump. But I don't think, I very much could agree

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with the sentiment that it wasn't a bull run. Like even this past run, we would expect usually

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in bull runs, we get like 30% corrections along the way, but we barely got like 3% up at times.

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So it definitely feels like it feels a little bit more reminiscent of like post gold ETF in terms of

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like both were kind of just a slow grind upward. Like we ultimately all know where this is going,

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but I think that the, the narrative that it's like a diminishing returns,

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we're going to continue to have diminishing returns. I think that's complete bullshit.

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Like don't think for one second that this thing can't just absolutely rip your face off. I'm

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saying that's going to happen in the next month or six months. I don't know when that's going

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to happen but one if you see the biggest players in the world going back to Mina right now if you

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see the biggest players in the world taking huge positions and not only just that like JP Morgan is

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trying to sell you picks and shovels like they're trying to get in on every other way they could

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possibly profit around it at some point in time not only are they going to let it rip if they're

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trying to suppress it right not saying they were but maybe they were probably were not saying they're

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going to just even just let it rip they're going to leverage it to the hilt to get make themselves

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Suppress it right Not saying they were but maybe they were probably were Not saying they going to just even just let it rip they going to leverage it to the hilt to get make themselves wealthy in the process as well too they want that stronger position on their balance sheet they

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go to their friends in the media and you know they have friends and people bought in the media they're

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going to put out their own research papers they're going to talk about it publicly they're going to

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basically just scoop up as much as they can they'll probably go long they'll they can issue

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themselves i'm sure dead at some point as well too and take on larger positions when they're ready

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they're going to let it absolutely take off and i think everyone's just kind of getting into their

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positions the best example i can think of is that you know go back to 2021 and tell me that gold was

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going to like just rip to four thousand dollars i would have thought you were just absolutely crazy

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like there's no way we're talking about at that point in time like what like a 10 trillion dollar

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asset that this thing is going to look like a 2017 kind of bitcoin run it's gonna have a parabolic

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move up we had the gold bugs guys like larry lepar talking about you know the big printer that these

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moves were coming but even for me like historically looking gold would be you know it would do a bit

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of a leg up and they would just chop forever right it had been so boring for so long despite the

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growth in the money supply despite the debasement that i never would have believed it but if you can

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see an asset that is more than well currently is coming up on 10 times the size of bitcoin if you

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have an asset 10 times the size of bitcoin that can just absolutely rip from two to four thousand

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what you don't think bitcoin could easily go from 100 to 200 100 to 400 you don't think that bitcoin

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could go from 100 to a million make no mistake and the other one too that i think is really

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interesting is that at some point in time if we do see that retail that fomo if the if the big

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institutions do try to gin it up as well we're going to start to see more psychological hurdles

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come into high psychological hurdles come into play right the biggest obvious one was the 100k

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which is why i'm not surprised that we spent so much time there and i wouldn't be surprised to

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to spend a lot of time here because that was such a dream fascination just a euphoric number right

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and humans despite it like unit bias is absolutely a thing which even going to like you know bitcoin

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versus sats we got squared launching bitcoin at all terminals and they're doing it with the bitcoin

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beat it's like 4 000 bitcoin for your coffee right now it's 4 000 sats in my opinion but to each their

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own but that unit bias i still i still hear people that say i can't afford a bitcoin they have no

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idea about that you can buy a hundred millionth of this thing that you can buy just a tiny piece

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of it they still think of it in the hole and the only reason i bring that up is because again i just

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try to imagine if people are coming back into the space if we're seeing another run let's say we're

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breaking past like 180 we're on our way to 200 where is the next psychological hurdle i don't

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think it's 200 000 i don't think it's 300 000 you could maybe make a case for quarter mil or half mil

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but realistically the next time the next place where we're going to spend a lot of time and

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probably fight to get through it is at that million dollar mark i think there's a decent

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amount of air between here and there when things eventually rip and again make no mistake i could

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just list a ton of stuff off we got 38 trillion dollars in debt we got 50 year mortgages coming

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to the u.s they're giving every child born in the u.s 2 000 bucks to go spend an account which if

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they're younger millennial parents there's a good chance that's just going in ibid but i rather

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their self-custody yeah but it's probably going to ibit and fidelity we're talking about stimmy

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checks like all around the world we can see we're talking about qe now back on the books for the

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federal reserve like we're having liquidity problems and monetary problems all around the

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existing system because of course it's going to continue to get worse it's going to fracture it's

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going to fall apart you know exactly what they're going to do is just turn on the taps and just flood

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the system and where do you think that's going to go we ripped from like the covet crashers like

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3 000 to 20 000 no problem there's no reason we can't go realistically and i know this is like

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I really am this bullish. I just don't, I can tell you exactly where it's going. I just don't

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know the timeline. It would not shock me to see that we go from like 80K to 800. Like a 10X is

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not out of the realm for Bitcoin. It's totally within the norm. And if we did it kind of even

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stair-step over the next, say, two years, 2026, 2027, you might not even necessarily, it might not

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feel ridiculous. It could just be like, yeah, we're just going up at a decent, it's almost like

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we could just return to that 30% compounded annual growth rate. And we'll get there pretty

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quick. Things will move pretty quick. It might bore you all the way to a million, I think is what

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I heard Chex say, which is just absolutely fantastic. But a ton of stuff there, Brandon.

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What are your thoughts? Yeah. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that we're kind of seeing a little

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bit of some manipulation here now that Wall Street's in, right? I mean, everybody thinks

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at the end of the day, all right, we had Uptober, Moonvember, like these things. Normally, Q4 is not

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only bullish for Bitcoin, but it's bullish for the stock market, equities, all of these things.

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And we saw during the COVID craze, you could essentially put out a dartboard with letters on it, just throw darts and then pick that stock and that ticker was going up at that point in time.

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So I think we have different market conditions now, but I think the fundamentals are as good as they've ever been.

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I mean, with this dip, we saw 30,000 Bitcoin come off exchanges.

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I think right now the sitting amount is the first time I've seen it under 2.1 million Bitcoin on exchanges.

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We're seeing OTC desks get wiped as well, which is where these big players are going to buy.

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And so, you know, even though retail is the one that is selling and maybe some OG whales,

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you know, it looks like the people that are buying are actually taking it off exchanges

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or they're giving it to BlackRock and JP Morgan and these guys by buying in those ETF products.

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So I think eventually it's going to play out like gold where, you know, if you look at the gold ETFs,

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It was on a generational run when it first was launched and everybody was going into the gold ETFs.

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But now what do you see?

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You see central banks and all of these giant countries starting to load up on gold, the physical asset.

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Like they want gold bars.

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They don't want to hold these ETF products just so they could have, I don't know, JP Morgan or BlackRock or one of these other custodians hold the gold for them.

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I think the same thing is going to play out with Bitcoin.

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I think, you know, we've seen a lot of these sovereign wealth funds like Norway famously bought a bunch of MSTR, you know, years ago.

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We've seen the Abu Dhabi and the UAE sovereign wealth funds buying the Ibit Bitcoin ETF.

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And, you know, we're seeing, you know, some smaller countries start to play around with actually buying and holding Bitcoin like El Salvador and the Kingdom of Bhutan.

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But I think we're going to start to see big players really start to dip their toe in and actually start to self custody and hold their own Bitcoin, whether that's through mining or that's, you know, through actually trying to buy it from some of these custodians.

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And these guys aren't the players that are selling.

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So Jordy Visser, he wrote this great article about Bitcoin's silent IPO moment.

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And I honestly, like the more I dive into it, the more I just see this playing out where it's all these OGs that came in early, you know, took on a lot of the risks of early Bitcoin.

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And now, of course, it doesn't seem risky. But hey, like, during like 2008, 2009, 2010, like those early, early days when Bitcoin was first getting rolled out. I mean, let's be honest here. It was just like a few people kind of going in to Bitcoin and Bitcoin was less than a dollar. And, you know, all of these different guys going in and it didn't seem like a full fledged bet now.

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And now it's, you know, two and a half trillion dollar asset.

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And everybody's like, all right, well, of course, Bitcoin is going to fail.

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Well, I mean, it's taken 16 years to get to this point.

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But even though it's the biggest and the fastest growing asset, I still think there's going to be some little bumps and like learning curves here along the way.

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So, you know, I definitely think that we're starting to see the development of this market.

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And with all of these different products, I guess, being formed on it.

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But, you know, I want to bring up the financialization of Bitcoin or the Bitcoinization of finance, kind of like mixing that back and forth, because we've seen a lot of that with housing.

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You know, I think a lot of the American dream right now to own a house and have two and a half kids and a golden retriever, that's kind of dying to the ability to buy that house.

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But you talked a little bit about whole number bias.

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I always like to allude to the number of wallets with like 10 million or 1 million sats, just how low that number is.

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Last bull run, we had exchanges blow up.

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You saw FTX, Celsius, BlockFi, you name it.

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But the true power of Bitcoin is getting it off an exchange into cold storage.

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No other hardware wallet has this.

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00:25:08,103 --> 00:25:10,183
On top of it, I travel a lot,

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so I need an easy way to connect my Bitcoin hardware wallet to my laptop, phone, what have you.

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All right, enough from me.

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Let's get back to the show.

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to buy that house. But you talked a little bit about whole number bias. I always like to allude

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to the number of wallets with like 10 million or 1 million sats, just how low that number is.

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What is it going to take for us to kind of get that adoption going? Do you think

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this TradFi coming in is helping or hurting that adoption?

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It's a tough call. And the reason it's a tough call is because Bitcoin is money for enemies,

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right? And I think that TradFi really is coming in right now that this is the part of the cycle

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where the institutions are the big players.

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And I was reminded of,

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there's a few things that were getting self-custody

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and even just not trusting different counterparts,

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which again, you should not, right?

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You should absolutely not trust the different counterparties.

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But I was thinking about back last week,

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we had Larry Fink.

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And there's two things that came out from Larry Fink.

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Now, the one that kind of got most of attention

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was the idea that he said

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that sovereigns were coming into the space.

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He said that sovereigns were taking their position.

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They were being smart about it.

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They were buying on the way down.

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They were getting their Bitcoin position.

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But the other thing that really stood out to me

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was he talked about how he was wrong.

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uh was it andrew sorkin was reading him a quote about how like things he had previously said about

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bitcoin was basically admitting that he was wrong the second thing i want to add to that was of course

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vanguard vanguard under new leadership came in and is now finally he i forget the quote but basically

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the original ceo of vanguard tim something or other was saying that like no way while he's here are

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they going to offer bitcoin products to their customers well he's gone and they immediately

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started offering basically bitcoin products to their customers now the signal there the really

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big signals. I think the biggest asset holders in the world is BlackRock, Vanguard, and State Street,

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if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure that State Street has said anything favorable, but they

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probably has. But having the head, Larry Fink, of the largest asset manager in the world come out

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and say that he was wrong about Bitcoin, that's your signal. And the reason it's your signal is

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not because he's, you know, stay humble, stack, sats, which is always a great thing to do.

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He was basically giving complete cover for everyone else to do a 180. He was giving every

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other institution in the world, basically CYA, cover your ass, that you can come out and say

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that you were wrong about Bitcoin and you're changing your position and getting on board

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now as well too, because Larry Fink did, because Vanguard did. And so I think that was like,

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this already feels like the big institutional players, but I think those shifts making it,

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we'd say, de-risking the career aspects of being on board with Bitcoin from an institution,

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from a financial advisor standpoint, from like a small, maybe mom and pop kind of,

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let's say money managers.

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He's made that possible for them.

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I think that was actually really key.

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That was the thing that wasn't necessarily heard by everybody.

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Well, they're so focused on these sovereigns coming in is that you have full permission,

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right?

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You can now join BlackRock and Larry Fink.

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Additionally, the other thing I want to hit on, so that was really interesting talking

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about, is it a good thing in trust?

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So I agree that you're going to have sovereigns and major, major institutional players.

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They're going to hold their own keys because they are different geographical regions and

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they don't trust each other. And it's interesting that you brought up mining as well, too,

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because I think that part of one of the benefits of the global institutional players getting into

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Bitcoin is going to be further decentralization of mining. And what do I mean by that? So

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specifically, just taking it from game theory playing out, I could have this wrong, but I'll

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tell you what I'm thinking here. We have big players like you could have Venezuela. They've

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got a ton of energy. They want to get in. You've got Saudi Arabia, right? And you've got the UAE.

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They have a lot of energy. They want to get in. As you see, large, if you have Norway,

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If you have large sovereigns that have big energy resources that they can direct towards Bitcoin mining that they hold in self-custody, they will.

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The other thing, though, is that for those guys, a lot of times they're going to have wasted or stranded energy, right?

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So it's basically like no risk.

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It's a way of reaccumulating some of the costs of the resources that you already have.

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They don't need, unlike a publicly traded Bitcoin mining company, they don't need to sell their Bitcoin in order to meet costs, right?

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Infrastructure, pay people.

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they can take that from other resources is basically excess stuff that they already had

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kind of in play so one of two things i think you're going to see sovereigns with excess energy

388
00:29:47,263 --> 00:29:51,623
getting into the mining space and just mining and holding that's that's all they're doing it's just

389
00:29:51,623 --> 00:29:56,043
just another way of accumulation it's another way to kind of usually lower the cost of some of the

390
00:29:56,043 --> 00:29:59,963
resources to get back some of the existing costs the other thing too is that i do not think that

391
00:29:59,963 --> 00:30:05,003
they will be using centralized pools i think that they will be spinning up their own pools because

392
00:30:05,003 --> 00:30:09,943
why would you want to have your bitcoin technically custody with somebody else going to a pool in a

393
00:30:09,943 --> 00:30:14,443
different geographical region that could be adversarial. If you can just deal with the time

394
00:30:14,443 --> 00:30:18,163
in between, like you don't need to get paid on an average on like with a full pay per share.

395
00:30:18,323 --> 00:30:23,083
You don't need to get paid out from every block that comes. You can just mine until you find one

396
00:30:23,083 --> 00:30:28,203
and keep that in self custody. So I think you're going to see energy rich nations getting into the

397
00:30:28,203 --> 00:30:33,303
mining space, holding onto that Bitcoin, and then also not relying on pools and basically setting

398
00:30:33,303 --> 00:30:39,343
up their own geographical local pool, running their own for themselves. Yeah, a hundred percent.

399
00:30:39,343 --> 00:30:49,423
And I think, you know, something that you said a little bit earlier was something that was interesting to me, where we're basically looking at the Saudi Arabia and these energy dense countries coming in.

400
00:30:49,483 --> 00:30:54,483
And I think, you know, with Samson Mao, what he's been doing and with Jan 3 kind of going around.

401
00:30:54,563 --> 00:31:06,003
I mean, I know just offhand speaking to him a few times, Prince Philip and all of these guys doing great work is the energy aspect is something that is, I guess, more appealing to them.

402
00:31:06,003 --> 00:31:11,723
And the crazy thing about all of that is that, you know, that's KYC free Bitcoin.

403
00:31:11,923 --> 00:31:15,623
So we don't really know who could be potentially mining at the end of the day.

404
00:31:16,043 --> 00:31:19,563
And I mean, you know, we saw that we talked about it earlier, the China ban.

405
00:31:19,823 --> 00:31:28,443
And then now we've basically got Kazakhstan, you know, being one of the bigger players because everybody moved from China to Kazakhstan, at least allegedly.

406
00:31:28,443 --> 00:31:39,543
And now even if you look at some of the hash power, I mean, China is still the number two country of all the hash rate, at least allegedly from what we can tell, compared to the rest of the world.

407
00:31:39,743 --> 00:31:49,663
So I think, you know, at the end of the day, this is going to be something that's going to help distribute the Bitcoin network even better and kind of do this, keep the decentralization aspect.

408
00:31:49,823 --> 00:31:57,063
But you said something that I want to kind of go back to a little bit about these entities kind of having that centralization around Bitcoin.

409
00:31:57,063 --> 00:32:04,443
So obviously we've got, you know, Michael Saylor and MSTR now buying a bunch of Bitcoin.

410
00:32:04,623 --> 00:32:06,483
They have over 650,000.

411
00:32:06,643 --> 00:32:08,123
They have more than any country.

412
00:32:08,223 --> 00:32:11,923
I think actually they might even have more than all the countries combined now at this point.

413
00:32:12,203 --> 00:32:20,823
And then if you combine all the other publicly traded companies, they also have more Bitcoin than all the other publicly traded companies combined.

414
00:32:20,823 --> 00:32:36,463
So is that a worry of yours? Is this centralization that we could see here going forward, at least with like one giant entity like a BlackRock having, you know, maybe a million Bitcoin or the ETFs having like one and a half million?

415
00:32:36,463 --> 00:32:40,043
And I think if you break it down with Coinbase and all of their custody,

416
00:32:40,243 --> 00:32:44,703
they have like well over 12% of the network, which is something that worries me.

417
00:32:45,263 --> 00:32:49,803
So are you worried about any of these potential centralization risks as

418
00:32:49,983 --> 00:33:06,526
you know this market is developing and as TradFi is coming in Oh yeah 100 with Avail Centralization is always going to be a risk And we were in a we are in a state of like decentralization even globally right i think covid was the peak of basically like just manufacturing complete centralization and we now realized that that

419
00:33:06,526 --> 00:33:10,147
that leaves you extremely vulnerable and the same thing applies here to bitcoin in the sense that

420
00:33:10,147 --> 00:33:16,907
you know for anyone that's into in microstrategy and done very well um i i'm kind of putting it in

421
00:33:16,907 --> 00:33:21,707
the category of like trading shit coins to try and get more bitcoin like yes okay you've done

422
00:33:21,707 --> 00:33:25,387
great, maybe it's been a great performer for you. If you don't necessarily have it locked up in some

423
00:33:25,387 --> 00:33:29,147
sort of like tax advantaged account, because that's always the risk, right? There will always be

424
00:33:29,147 --> 00:33:33,647
a million reasons why it's better to leave it somewhere else. You don't have to worry about it.

425
00:33:33,687 --> 00:33:38,227
Maybe there's some sort of tax advantage. But realistically, until you take that micro strategy

426
00:33:38,227 --> 00:33:41,667
share and sell it and buy Bitcoin and keep it in self custody, it's like you haven't realized

427
00:33:41,667 --> 00:33:45,627
profits, right? Those are all just basic paper gains. If you don't actually have the Bitcoin,

428
00:33:45,947 --> 00:33:48,347
it's nothing but paper gains there. So the biggest risk that I see is one,

429
00:33:48,347 --> 00:33:51,387
there's always the possibility, right?

430
00:33:51,447 --> 00:33:53,207
That one of those centralizing custodians

431
00:33:53,207 --> 00:33:54,347
are going to be compromised.

432
00:33:54,766 --> 00:33:56,687
The big reason too is because it's just people.

433
00:33:56,847 --> 00:33:58,507
Like even think about it from,

434
00:33:59,147 --> 00:34:00,907
we see scams in the space all the time.

435
00:34:00,927 --> 00:34:02,627
And I've seen some crazy ones as of late.

436
00:34:02,647 --> 00:34:04,306
I've seen like paper letters getting sent out

437
00:34:04,306 --> 00:34:05,266
to try and fish for emails.

438
00:34:05,546 --> 00:34:07,887
I've seen podcast requests getting sent out to people

439
00:34:07,887 --> 00:34:09,346
to try and get malicious software.

440
00:34:09,947 --> 00:34:12,987
The biggest weak point that we ever have with Bitcoin

441
00:34:12,987 --> 00:34:15,407
is going to be the human aspect of it.

442
00:34:15,447 --> 00:34:16,586
These companies are run by people

443
00:34:16,586 --> 00:34:18,086
who could be pressured.

444
00:34:18,487 --> 00:34:19,507
They could be put under strain.

445
00:34:19,846 --> 00:34:20,947
They can be bribed.

446
00:34:21,146 --> 00:34:22,326
They could be bad actors.

447
00:34:22,727 --> 00:34:24,826
I don't think that Coinbase custody

448
00:34:24,826 --> 00:34:25,987
is going to blow up tomorrow.

449
00:34:26,106 --> 00:34:27,146
And I'm sure they have a lot of procedures

450
00:34:27,146 --> 00:34:27,867
and things in place,

451
00:34:27,927 --> 00:34:28,706
but they're still not,

452
00:34:29,047 --> 00:34:30,227
they're still fallible, right?

453
00:34:30,267 --> 00:34:30,987
They're still fallible.

454
00:34:31,066 --> 00:34:32,047
There still is that risk there.

455
00:34:32,166 --> 00:34:34,047
So I hate to see the centralization risk.

456
00:34:34,146 --> 00:34:35,467
I also do worry that again,

457
00:34:36,126 --> 00:34:36,947
going back to,

458
00:34:37,126 --> 00:34:38,487
we haven't had to blow up the cycle.

459
00:34:38,586 --> 00:34:40,166
We haven't relearned this lesson.

460
00:34:40,447 --> 00:34:41,706
I worry that like,

461
00:34:41,907 --> 00:34:43,706
even if it's not coming from a malicious standpoint,

462
00:34:43,706 --> 00:34:45,007
that as much as I like Sailor,

463
00:34:45,066 --> 00:34:45,787
especially in the early days,

464
00:34:45,846 --> 00:34:46,326
pumping her bags

465
00:34:46,326 --> 00:34:48,007
and get out there really being a,

466
00:34:48,126 --> 00:34:50,186
we say someone that could talk to TradFi

467
00:34:50,186 --> 00:34:52,007
that they would at least respect, right?

468
00:34:52,007 --> 00:34:54,267
Because he was a billionaire tech mogul, right?

469
00:34:54,287 --> 00:34:55,927
He was right about the mobile wave.

470
00:34:56,747 --> 00:34:58,967
He was able to command authority

471
00:34:58,967 --> 00:34:59,947
from that kind of audience

472
00:34:59,947 --> 00:35:01,566
that needed that sort of thing.

473
00:35:01,947 --> 00:35:03,846
But I really worry that like right now, right?

474
00:35:04,106 --> 00:35:05,507
And it's a shot,

475
00:35:05,566 --> 00:35:06,927
but I don't mean it for it to be a shot.

476
00:35:07,267 --> 00:35:08,106
Or maybe I do.

477
00:35:08,346 --> 00:35:09,666
I don't know how to think about it a little bit more.

478
00:35:09,927 --> 00:35:11,867
But I feel like he's leading everyone astray.

479
00:35:12,007 --> 00:35:13,186
Like it feels like the Pied Piper.

480
00:35:13,186 --> 00:35:17,346
We're offering like, you know, yield and return and different products.

481
00:35:17,447 --> 00:35:20,487
And the dude just got $1.44 billion of cash on hand.

482
00:35:20,586 --> 00:35:22,027
Like, it's like, I can understand.

483
00:35:22,186 --> 00:35:24,427
I think, by the way, that I think he's doing that from a credit standpoint.

484
00:35:24,727 --> 00:35:28,727
I don't think he's doing it necessarily just to pay out, like to have some cash on hand to pay out the dividends.

485
00:35:28,867 --> 00:35:33,427
Like, yes, but you could just as easily roll that into Bitcoin and have like your Bitcoin spending in your Bitcoin savings account.

486
00:35:33,686 --> 00:35:35,826
And you can just sell whatever Bitcoin you need in order to meet the dividends.

487
00:35:35,826 --> 00:35:40,706
Like, there's no reason you can't use Bitcoin as your currency for both portions, which would be much more Bitcoin-er of you.

488
00:35:41,146 --> 00:35:44,927
I think that was a way to try to appeal to the places he's trying to get capital from,

489
00:35:45,206 --> 00:35:47,287
to try, especially with Tether getting kind of the downgrade,

490
00:35:47,367 --> 00:35:50,686
despite having more than full reserves for gold and Bitcoin.

491
00:35:50,927 --> 00:35:54,146
They got more than, they have reserves beyond their obligations,

492
00:35:54,447 --> 00:35:55,967
but they're higher risk because it's gold and Bitcoin.

493
00:35:56,086 --> 00:35:57,027
Get the fuck out of here, right?

494
00:35:57,027 --> 00:35:57,947
That's just complete bullshit.

495
00:35:58,346 --> 00:36:01,106
And so I think he's putting cash on the balance sheet to try and deal with that.

496
00:36:01,467 --> 00:36:05,367
But the over-financialization, the over-centralization, this engineering,

497
00:36:05,747 --> 00:36:08,027
they're normalizing yield in Bitcoin again.

498
00:36:08,027 --> 00:36:09,947
Go back to BlockFi, go back to Celsius.

499
00:36:09,947 --> 00:36:13,727
if you're getting a yield on Bitcoin where the fuck is the yield coming from it's not a good

500
00:36:13,727 --> 00:36:17,507
idea it means you're taking on third-party risk there's something going on here in order to achieve

501
00:36:17,507 --> 00:36:22,247
that now I'm not saying he's doing anything illegal or anything necessarily like immoral

502
00:36:22,247 --> 00:36:29,507
from the historical lens as well too but these normalizing behaviors in Bitcoin two newcomers

503
00:36:29,507 --> 00:36:34,727
coming in he is one of the biggest evangelists and there's there's always been the two things

504
00:36:34,727 --> 00:36:39,467
that kind of struck me is that one he does say like just buy the Bitcoin but then he's selling

505
00:36:39,467 --> 00:36:43,247
these products. It's like, I get it. Right. But still it's a little bit. But the other one that

506
00:36:43,247 --> 00:36:47,227
really always bothered me was that despite even speaking at like the RAND events and things to

507
00:36:47,227 --> 00:36:51,887
Ayn Rand society, he never puts it in the position of competing with the dollar.

508
00:36:52,407 --> 00:36:57,807
He never says that it competes with the dollar. He talks about it as a asset in a store of value.

509
00:36:58,267 --> 00:37:02,007
Now I understand, I believe I understand why he does that. I got a mind reading a little bit here.

510
00:37:02,007 --> 00:37:07,047
I was like, okay, you have a fiduciary duty to your shareholders for a publicly traded company

511
00:37:07,047 --> 00:37:09,227
that resides within the US government.

512
00:37:09,586 --> 00:37:11,606
I don't think you're going to make too many friends

513
00:37:11,606 --> 00:37:14,807
or you might have some issues with your S&P listing

514
00:37:14,807 --> 00:37:16,346
if you're coming out there and saying like,

515
00:37:16,407 --> 00:37:17,827
oh no, Bitcoin ends the dollar.

516
00:37:18,146 --> 00:37:20,066
But I think that's the centralization risk

517
00:37:20,066 --> 00:37:20,927
and that's the narrative right now

518
00:37:20,927 --> 00:37:22,206
that is really, really concerning

519
00:37:22,206 --> 00:37:23,267
because ultimately,

520
00:37:23,467 --> 00:37:25,427
and I know this will sound a little bit,

521
00:37:25,427 --> 00:37:26,427
let me say hyperbolic.

522
00:37:26,987 --> 00:37:29,166
Let's say Bitcoin matches gold parity.

523
00:37:29,427 --> 00:37:30,427
We're sitting at 20 trillion.

524
00:37:30,566 --> 00:37:32,467
We're sitting around a million bucks from here,

525
00:37:32,586 --> 00:37:34,507
but it's just a store of value

526
00:37:34,507 --> 00:37:35,947
that people keep at Schwab

527
00:37:35,947 --> 00:37:41,027
or they have an ETF or they have a little bit of a micro strategy treasury company, right?

528
00:37:41,367 --> 00:37:45,166
It's just another financialized USD asset for you to hold on to,

529
00:37:45,267 --> 00:37:48,106
to try and protect yourself from the debasement of the currency.

530
00:37:48,487 --> 00:37:49,527
In my opinion, it's failed.

531
00:37:50,106 --> 00:37:51,186
Bitcoin is money.

532
00:37:51,586 --> 00:37:52,626
Money is meant to be spent.

533
00:37:52,706 --> 00:37:53,566
It's meant to be held.

534
00:37:53,666 --> 00:37:54,947
It is not an asset.

535
00:37:54,947 --> 00:37:59,346
It is the most saleable liquid good that you can transact with anyone around the world 24-7,

536
00:37:59,646 --> 00:38:00,427
held in self-custody.

537
00:38:00,507 --> 00:38:01,787
Nobody can take it away from you.

538
00:38:02,346 --> 00:38:05,547
One, of course, to be a store of value, and Parker Lewis is great on this point,

539
00:38:05,547 --> 00:38:11,827
To be a store of value, it must also be a medium of exchange because you must have that intention of exchanging it in the future.

540
00:38:12,047 --> 00:38:14,007
It's just a medium of exchange at a different point in time.

541
00:38:14,747 --> 00:38:26,606
But for Bitcoin to actually not only like it helps us, it helps our mindset, but that Bitcoin to actually like fix the money, fix the world in order to keep these financial demons in check.

542
00:38:26,807 --> 00:38:32,787
You have to be able to call their bluff, call when they're rehypothecating, call when they're shorting it without any coverage.

543
00:38:32,987 --> 00:38:35,066
And you need to take it into self-custody.

544
00:38:35,066 --> 00:38:37,967
and for Bitcoin to work, for Bitcoin to succeed,

545
00:38:38,066 --> 00:38:39,666
that means that it's not just a store of value.

546
00:38:39,947 --> 00:38:41,467
It's not something that you look at

547
00:38:41,467 --> 00:38:42,807
in your trading account, right?

548
00:38:43,066 --> 00:38:44,586
It's something that you hold dear

549
00:38:44,586 --> 00:38:45,706
and that you keep yourself

550
00:38:45,706 --> 00:38:47,027
and that you can spend when you need to

551
00:38:47,027 --> 00:38:49,027
to protect yourself from the uncertainty of the future.

552
00:38:49,626 --> 00:38:53,007
So with all that, yes, what I'm most,

553
00:38:53,126 --> 00:38:54,427
this is a centralization risk.

554
00:38:54,527 --> 00:38:55,887
There's always that hacking compromise.

555
00:38:56,166 --> 00:38:58,407
It's probably not major at this point in time,

556
00:38:58,467 --> 00:39:00,447
but I still think someone's getting blown up.

557
00:39:00,566 --> 00:39:01,566
Someone's gonna get caught.

558
00:39:01,867 --> 00:39:04,066
It's the good old, what's it called?

559
00:39:04,066 --> 00:39:09,287
Charlie Munger. And why am I not pulling up his name right now? My God, the Oracle from Omaha.

560
00:39:09,447 --> 00:39:13,527
It'll come to me in a second. Oh, Warren Buffett. Thank you. I don't know why my brain was like,

561
00:39:13,586 --> 00:39:18,247
you can think of his nickname, but not his actual name. The tide is going to go out in some point

562
00:39:18,247 --> 00:39:21,467
in time and you're going to see who's swimming naked. And don't get me wrong. I don't think

563
00:39:21,467 --> 00:39:25,007
that these moments aren't going to happen. I think that they'll happen much faster in Bitcoin

564
00:39:25,007 --> 00:39:29,367
because we can self-custody, right? So things like in-kind redemption, in-kind creation for

565
00:39:29,367 --> 00:39:34,206
the ETFs. I think it'd be really important to keep everybody in check. So the biggest risks I think

566
00:39:34,206 --> 00:39:40,547
is, is that you just normalize Bitcoin as, as not money, as you just normalize it. Is it something

567
00:39:40,547 --> 00:39:45,507
that you leave with your brokerage account? It's just another asset that you have. If you never

568
00:39:45,507 --> 00:39:50,566
use it, you never try it. You never play with the tools. You never take self-cust. You never go down

569
00:39:50,566 --> 00:39:53,907
the Bitcoin rabbit hole. Like how many people, and this would explain also why I had that big

570
00:39:53,907 --> 00:40:00,407
price correction to 80,000. How many people got into Bitcoin in one of these vehicles,

571
00:40:00,626 --> 00:40:04,547
but never even checked out a Bitcoin podcast? They're not even here, right? They might listen

572
00:40:04,547 --> 00:40:08,586
to like one or two things about where the price is going, but they never explored the idea of

573
00:40:08,586 --> 00:40:13,547
like stateless money, right? Why trusted money is a bad idea, right? They've never gone down any of

574
00:40:13,547 --> 00:40:16,027
the Bitcoin rabbit holes, the truth about government, the truth about money, the truth

575
00:40:16,027 --> 00:40:21,566
about your health, the truth about family and education. So they never even on an individual

576
00:40:21,566 --> 00:40:26,927
level. They never bettered themselves. They were still just the same trapped on the hamster wheel,

577
00:40:27,066 --> 00:40:31,166
fiat mindset, short time preference person that's happy to vote for another government because

578
00:40:31,166 --> 00:40:34,047
that's going to fix it. Of course it is this time. We'll just switch out the guy. We'll switch out

579
00:40:34,047 --> 00:40:37,907
one puppet in power controlled by BlackRock and all the guys for another puppet in power controlled

580
00:40:37,907 --> 00:40:43,626
by BlackRock and Vanguard and JP Morgan and all them as well too. That's the biggest risk is that

581
00:40:43,626 --> 00:40:47,146
Bitcoin fails in the mission of actually fixing the world. And it fails in the mission if we don't

582
00:40:47,146 --> 00:40:51,646
take self-custody. And that's just becoming way too normalized and people are way too comfortable

583
00:40:51,646 --> 00:40:56,767
with at that point, this point in time. One of my absolute favorite things about Bitcoin is

584
00:40:56,767 --> 00:41:01,807
meeting all of you in person. So mark your calendars for February 28th and come down to

585
00:41:01,807 --> 00:41:07,887
where I've called home for the past eight years, Tampa, Florida. The Bitcoin Bay Foundation is

586
00:41:07,887 --> 00:41:13,066
putting on the sound money soiree. It's the third annual. It's a night of Bitcoin, poker,

587
00:41:13,066 --> 00:41:19,007
an open bar, and a silent auction. All support will go to Bitcoin Bay, a nonprofit that is

588
00:41:19,007 --> 00:41:24,987
creating a circular economy down in Tampa Bay, Florida. They're doing absolutely great things,

589
00:41:25,106 --> 00:41:30,066
and it's the Bitcoin community that I've called home for such a long time, and these guys are

590
00:41:30,066 --> 00:41:35,307
absolutely crushing it. So please do anything you can to support. Buy your tickets today. You can

591
00:41:35,307 --> 00:41:41,146
use promo code GREENCANDLE to get 10% off your Sound Money Soiree tickets. So do you know anything

592
00:41:41,146 --> 00:41:46,487
about Bitcoin. You guys can come down and see this ugly mug, come boogie on the dance floor,

593
00:41:46,626 --> 00:41:50,407
shake it. And now that Bitcoin's over 100K, you can do it all with your girlfriends.

594
00:41:51,367 --> 00:41:53,347
All right, on that for me, let's get back to the show.

595
00:41:57,867 --> 00:42:01,706
Is that Bitcoin fails in the mission of actually fixing the world. And it fails in the mission if

596
00:42:01,706 --> 00:42:05,606
we don't take self-custody. And that's just becoming way too normalized and people are

597
00:42:05,606 --> 00:42:07,666
way too comfortable with it at that point, this point in time.

598
00:42:07,666 --> 00:42:37,646
Yeah, I think, you know, what Square is doing, I want to get into that here in a little bit about, you know, adding in all these terminals. I think that's going to be a step. But, you know, I'll get into some of my thoughts about that a little bit later. I do want to hit on the point that you brought up about about Saylor, because I think that that is interesting. You know, he's bringing up all these different markets, right? You know, he brought up the 300 or $200 trillion credit market here today, which I haven't heard him talk about it before. But, you know, there's a $300 trillion bond market, the $145 trillion.

599
00:42:37,666 --> 00:42:41,727
dollar fixed income market now the 200 trillion dollar credit market that he's going after

600
00:42:41,727 --> 00:42:47,106
i mean all of these markets are just absolutely ginormous and he's building all these financial

601
00:42:47,106 --> 00:42:54,086
products to kind of i guess i i call it like utilize the old system to kind of get as much

602
00:42:54,086 --> 00:43:00,327
exposure to the new system as you possibly can um but i think the the store of value just just

603
00:43:00,327 --> 00:43:05,967
fits right now just because of of the development of of where we're at and i i do think we're going

604
00:43:05,967 --> 00:43:11,907
to get to that, you know, peer to peer exchange here. Eventually, I think it's just, you know,

605
00:43:12,007 --> 00:43:15,727
it's kind of, you know, I guess part of the development right now. I mean, the Lightning

606
00:43:15,727 --> 00:43:21,007
Network, it's still I mean, it's great to, you know, do some small transactions, but every now

607
00:43:21,007 --> 00:43:25,007
and then there is some some mess ups there. So there are some things that I think we need to

608
00:43:25,007 --> 00:43:31,807
develop just as an ecosystem to kind of go around. But something that Checkmatey also said at one

609
00:43:31,807 --> 00:43:38,907
point that really stood out to me is, you know, we saw 60% of the wallets at one point in time had

610
00:43:38,907 --> 00:43:45,767
a cost basis above that 95k. So, you know, once we got under that, well, you know, majority of

611
00:43:45,767 --> 00:43:51,686
wallets were were underwater at that point. So we did have a lot of new players coming in. And,

612
00:43:52,007 --> 00:43:56,086
you know, to your point, they probably aren't sitting here, you know, listening to their 40

613
00:43:56,086 --> 00:44:03,827
hours a week of Bitcoin podcasts like the rest of us, right? So what do you think, I guess,

614
00:44:03,907 --> 00:44:10,907
in the short term? Is this just kind of, I guess, let's call it like a traditional

615
00:44:10,907 --> 00:44:17,807
asset in a sense where we're seeing the big players understand what they're buying, right?

616
00:44:17,887 --> 00:44:23,527
I mean, after 2008, they all came in and bought real estate after it crashed because they were

617
00:44:23,527 --> 00:44:28,706
licking their chops and seeing it all priced so low. And I feel like that's kind of the same

618
00:44:28,706 --> 00:44:33,427
thing going on right now. And instead of seeing this potential wealth transfer where we're getting,

619
00:44:33,427 --> 00:44:40,007
you know, a lot of new players buying Bitcoin, instead, it's just essentially playing out just

620
00:44:40,007 --> 00:44:45,467
like, you know, every other asset. Is that something that I guess worries you too, in a

621
00:44:45,467 --> 00:44:50,007
sense? Because that's something that is keeping me up at night where Bitcoin is supposed to be for

622
00:44:50,007 --> 00:44:56,467
the plebs. But the more I look on chain, the more it worries me that it's playing out just exactly

623
00:44:56,467 --> 00:45:01,367
like every other asset. That is the big worry right now. And I completely agree. And it comes

624
00:45:01,367 --> 00:45:04,907
down to even like, it's surprising to me because I never would have thought that this would happen,

625
00:45:04,907 --> 00:45:10,546
but it's, again, you got to fear and greed, right? Fear and greed are the biggest motivators for

626
00:45:10,546 --> 00:45:16,007
people by far, without a doubt. And so when we had this Bitcoin Trojan horse that was going into the

627
00:45:16,007 --> 00:45:20,267
traditional finance system. It was going in there. The big players, at this point in time,

628
00:45:20,327 --> 00:45:23,747
they're well aware of the threat that Bitcoin is to them. They're well aware of the threat that

629
00:45:23,747 --> 00:45:27,146
Bitcoin is to them, their existing power structure. And so they have to pivot, they have to change,

630
00:45:27,247 --> 00:45:31,847
they have to say that they're wrong, like Larry Fink, and try to basically get on the right side

631
00:45:31,847 --> 00:45:37,367
of it, to position themselves to benefit from it to the best of their abilities. So knowing

632
00:45:37,367 --> 00:45:43,126
that it is a threat to them, my biggest worry is that the Bitcoin Trojan horses that we kind of

633
00:45:43,126 --> 00:45:47,927
sent into this this disgusting corrupt fiat traditional finance system is that they've been

634
00:45:47,927 --> 00:45:51,767
offered a really nice seat at the table that they got in there they got into the palace and the food

635
00:45:51,767 --> 00:45:55,767
was great and now they're one of the big players now they're one of the big dogs now they have the

636
00:45:55,767 --> 00:45:59,287
say now they have the influence now they have the luxury that goes beyond they have the prestige of

637
00:45:59,287 --> 00:46:04,807
the existing system that goes with it so in the short term like i again like all right whatever

638
00:46:04,807 --> 00:46:08,807
i'm just gonna throw i'm throwing shade but you're still wonderful human beings like jack mallard's

639
00:46:08,807 --> 00:46:12,686
teaming up with Cantor Fitzgerald to do basically, you know, Bitcoin back loans. Like,

640
00:46:12,967 --> 00:46:17,566
I'm going to hand over your Bitcoin for fiat and risk that. It doesn't seem like it's necessarily

641
00:46:17,566 --> 00:46:22,447
a great idea. It's not, it's not nearly the same sort of ethos that we had when he was doing like

642
00:46:22,447 --> 00:46:26,606
the Bitcoin beach in the El Salvador push, right? Adam back in Blockstream, definitely getting it

643
00:46:26,606 --> 00:46:30,467
on the treasury side, right? And playing in the background there as well too. We got Sailor with

644
00:46:30,467 --> 00:46:35,086
all these different products as well. It is, I think the existing system where I thought that

645
00:46:35,086 --> 00:46:38,527
for us, it'll probably be from a position of fear,

646
00:46:38,727 --> 00:46:41,447
that if there is a crackdown,

647
00:46:41,706 --> 00:46:44,527
if the Bitcoin threat to the existing system

648
00:46:44,527 --> 00:46:46,307
gets a little bit, we'll say, turned up,

649
00:46:46,467 --> 00:46:47,367
that he gets turned up there,

650
00:46:47,447 --> 00:46:49,046
we can expect that they could try to,

651
00:46:49,166 --> 00:46:50,227
in some geographical regions,

652
00:46:50,307 --> 00:46:51,066
to try and crack down.

653
00:46:51,146 --> 00:46:52,387
I'd like to do the samurai devs, right?

654
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:53,287
Which, guys, by the way,

655
00:46:53,307 --> 00:46:53,967
if you haven't checked it out,

656
00:46:54,186 --> 00:46:54,907
go and sign a petition,

657
00:46:55,086 --> 00:46:56,066
try and circulate that story.

658
00:46:56,106 --> 00:46:57,467
We need to get those guys out of prison.

659
00:46:58,267 --> 00:47:00,307
That we may see self-custody be illegal,

660
00:47:00,527 --> 00:47:03,007
or I think I saw images going around of the IRS

661
00:47:03,007 --> 00:47:04,447
asking you to report the addresses

662
00:47:04,447 --> 00:47:06,427
that you now have as well too on one of their forms

663
00:47:06,427 --> 00:47:08,847
that they're going to want to find out where your Bitcoin is.

664
00:47:09,146 --> 00:47:11,787
They're going to maybe try to outlaw self-custody at some point in time,

665
00:47:11,827 --> 00:47:12,247
which makes sense.

666
00:47:12,307 --> 00:47:15,487
A dying system would basically kick and scream on the way out.

667
00:47:15,887 --> 00:47:18,606
So I always expected the traditional finance side

668
00:47:18,606 --> 00:47:20,146
to come at it from that same sort of perspective.

669
00:47:20,327 --> 00:47:21,467
Same like the war on drugs.

670
00:47:21,566 --> 00:47:24,706
We're going to use extreme punishment and crackdown and fear

671
00:47:24,706 --> 00:47:26,186
to get you to comply with what we want.

672
00:47:26,447 --> 00:47:28,407
But what I'm worried right now with everything that we're seeing here

673
00:47:28,407 --> 00:47:29,747
is they're going to complete other direction.

674
00:47:30,126 --> 00:47:32,287
They're taking the biggest companies, the biggest players in Bitcoin,

675
00:47:32,287 --> 00:47:35,007
and rather than try and scare them into compliance,

676
00:47:35,407 --> 00:47:35,927
it was greed.

677
00:47:36,307 --> 00:47:37,747
It was, hey, why don't you give us your Bitcoin?

678
00:47:37,987 --> 00:47:39,046
We'll put it on the balance sheet, right?

679
00:47:39,086 --> 00:47:40,146
We'll give you a whole bunch of equity.

680
00:47:40,206 --> 00:47:40,867
We can lever it up.

681
00:47:40,907 --> 00:47:41,527
We'll get you some more.

682
00:47:41,586 --> 00:47:43,227
You can be even wealthier than you currently are.

683
00:47:43,227 --> 00:47:46,407
That rather than trying to pressure them into comply,

684
00:47:46,807 --> 00:47:49,387
they basically just offered them that golden throne

685
00:47:49,387 --> 00:47:50,626
that they could then sit on.

686
00:47:50,767 --> 00:47:52,907
So short-term, yes.

687
00:47:53,007 --> 00:47:55,387
I worry that we've lost our Bitcoin maxi spirit.

688
00:47:57,247 --> 00:48:00,747
I think we should have in Bitcoin a position of,

689
00:48:00,747 --> 00:48:05,046
neutral skepticism towards everything that we see. In the same way that when I'm teaching

690
00:48:05,046 --> 00:48:08,546
somebody about self-custody, I'm going to go with the base assumption that the computer or your phone

691
00:48:08,546 --> 00:48:11,747
is or will be compromised. So we're never going to trust it. We don't have to trust that device.

692
00:48:11,807 --> 00:48:17,487
We're not going to. That we shouldn't be necessarily as trusting of the players that are currently here.

693
00:48:17,487 --> 00:48:21,206
It is possible for people to get greedy, get corrupted, or to even just be wrong.

694
00:48:21,367 --> 00:48:25,247
They may not in any way be lying. They could just be making a mistake and be wrong. And I think that is

695
00:48:25,247 --> 00:48:29,626
a centralization risk. But, and here's the fun but, at the end of the day, so long

696
00:48:29,626 --> 00:48:33,106
as people are taking self custody. And again, if you want to make sure that all these big players

697
00:48:33,106 --> 00:48:36,307
can't manipulate the price, then you have to take the keys. If you want to make sure that it's not

698
00:48:36,307 --> 00:48:41,646
just going to be completely centralized, then you have to take the keys. The adversarial nature

699
00:48:41,646 --> 00:48:47,007
of Bitcoin between different geographical regions and powers, I think will ultimately prevent that

700
00:48:47,007 --> 00:48:51,007
from necessarily being the case, right? At least in almost like a regional side, but you may have

701
00:48:51,007 --> 00:48:55,847
like, you know, major ETF or bank holder within the US, but there's going to be another one in a,

702
00:48:55,847 --> 00:48:58,126
in Turkey, in Russia.

703
00:48:58,247 --> 00:49:00,227
In Russia, we had, I think it was VTP Bank,

704
00:49:00,307 --> 00:49:00,927
the state-owned bank,

705
00:49:01,327 --> 00:49:03,787
was pushing for a 7% allocation for Bitcoin.

706
00:49:04,206 --> 00:49:06,706
So the adversarial nature between countries

707
00:49:06,706 --> 00:49:07,546
throughout the world,

708
00:49:07,706 --> 00:49:09,586
well, I think help kind of keep that in check

709
00:49:09,586 --> 00:49:11,227
and make sure that Bitcoin's not just centralizing

710
00:49:11,227 --> 00:49:13,007
in one location and getting completely controlled.

711
00:49:13,407 --> 00:49:14,987
That again, you have every incentive.

712
00:49:15,086 --> 00:49:17,987
If you're not a friend of like BlackRock in the US,

713
00:49:18,367 --> 00:49:19,606
then you don't have a benefit of being like,

714
00:49:19,666 --> 00:49:20,867
oh yeah, citizens, go and buy that.

715
00:49:20,927 --> 00:49:21,686
That's the perfect option.

716
00:49:21,767 --> 00:49:36,030
No no you gonna tell them to take self You as a nation are going to take self So short term I think it a risk I think people will end up getting hurt I think it also allows the worst people to have manipulation or influence in the network Medium term I don think it particularly matters I think the game

717
00:49:36,030 --> 00:49:39,190
theory plays out and we still win because it's money for enemies. And this is going to be, again,

718
00:49:39,230 --> 00:49:42,750
it's going to be global. It's not like it's just going to be US or Western nations. It's going to

719
00:49:42,750 --> 00:49:46,230
be global phenomenal. And long-term, Bitcoin wins and we're all filthy rich and we have girlfriends.

720
00:49:46,350 --> 00:49:51,170
That's just how this plays out. I'm still waiting for the girlfriend. So ladies in the chat,

721
00:49:51,170 --> 00:50:12,110
I mean, hit me up. The comments are wide open. But, you know, I kid, I kid. Either way, though, I mean, I do think that there's a lot of interesting developments, right? I mean, you know, we touched on Cash App and Square here. And I want to dive into your thought about it, because, you know, I think this potentially could be one of the biggest moves that that's ever made in Bitcoin.

722
00:50:12,110 --> 00:50:17,270
Of course, we've got, you know, Strike and some of these other players, you know, Jack, friend of the program.

723
00:50:17,770 --> 00:50:22,770
You know, I know that they've been doing these things, but Cash App is a different beast.

724
00:50:23,010 --> 00:50:25,090
You know, I mean, like you can buy stocks on Cash App.

725
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:34,070
It's like essentially, you know, your I can't think of the term, but like financial tech bank or whatever they're calling it these days.

726
00:50:34,070 --> 00:50:40,750
But you essentially some people I know use Cash App instead of owning a bank account because you can send money easily.

727
00:50:40,750 --> 00:50:45,630
you can buy stocks, you can buy Bitcoin if you'd like, and then now you can pay.

728
00:50:46,130 --> 00:50:49,370
Granted, there's a lot of people that don't utilize all this.

729
00:50:49,610 --> 00:50:54,710
And we've seen the development of Apple Pay kind of take off as well,

730
00:50:55,030 --> 00:51:01,810
where I think it took like 10 to 15 years or something to get like Apple Pay

731
00:51:01,810 --> 00:51:07,850
to get even like 10% of the total payment market share just in the United States alone.

732
00:51:07,850 --> 00:51:12,330
So I think we're still a ways away from Bitcoin becoming a medium of exchange.

733
00:51:12,450 --> 00:51:18,410
And I think Bitcoiners are going to want this all to happen all at once because of how big of a move Square has made.

734
00:51:18,550 --> 00:51:20,810
But what are your kind of expectations around there?

735
00:51:20,850 --> 00:51:28,370
I know I gave a little bit of my two sats there, but what's your expectations for the development of the peer-to-peer exchange here, Nathan?

736
00:51:28,890 --> 00:51:32,030
Why would you ever hold generational wealth on a piece of paper?

737
00:51:32,430 --> 00:51:33,430
It doesn't make sense.

738
00:51:33,690 --> 00:51:37,190
You need a foolproof solution and I've got it for you.

739
00:51:37,190 --> 00:51:39,530
You could get this as low as $25.

740
00:51:40,050 --> 00:51:43,050
And if you use promo code GREENCANDLE, you could get 10% off.

741
00:51:43,370 --> 00:51:49,050
Being around for 12 years, they've engineered the perfect and most easy to use solution.

742
00:51:49,530 --> 00:51:52,910
I've partnered with CryptoSteel to offer for you guys just that.

743
00:51:53,150 --> 00:51:57,070
It is the cheapest and most secure way to store your C-phrase.

744
00:51:57,330 --> 00:52:03,250
I don't know about you guys, but I don't have too many things where I think one ton is going to fall on this.

745
00:52:03,310 --> 00:52:05,730
But it could survive all of that and more.

746
00:52:06,370 --> 00:52:08,970
So go to CryptoSteel.com.

747
00:52:09,050 --> 00:52:10,850
You can use promo code GREENCANDLE.

748
00:52:11,030 --> 00:52:15,670
You can get 10% off your entire order if you go there today.

749
00:52:16,090 --> 00:52:20,970
So go ahead and protect your generational wealth and do it with CryptoSteel.

750
00:52:21,330 --> 00:52:22,650
All right, enough from me.

751
00:52:22,850 --> 00:52:23,630
Back to the show.

752
00:52:23,890 --> 00:52:26,490
But what are your kind of expectations around there?

753
00:52:26,490 --> 00:52:28,610
I know I gave a little bit of my two sats there,

754
00:52:28,650 --> 00:52:34,030
but what's your expectations for the development of the peer-to-peer exchange here, Nathan?

755
00:52:34,030 --> 00:53:02,050
Well, I think more than anything, and I really appreciate what Jack and the team over at Square and Block have done here, is I think it normalizes it. And again, it also helps normalize that medium of exchange amount. Because even if someone's not transacting in Bitcoin, you start to see people doing that. It's going to add little touch points, little curiosities along the way. Because think about how many times you had to hear about Bitcoin before you bought some, right? Almost no one is like the first time they heard about it, they go out and get some. I'm sure there are a few psychopaths out there and God bless you. But usually we have to have a couple touch points before we get into it.

756
00:53:02,050 --> 00:53:06,010
So it's another wonderful touch point that puts it again in that money category.

757
00:53:06,070 --> 00:53:09,890
Because when you see it at a square terminal, they're not using it as a savings account.

758
00:53:10,030 --> 00:53:11,010
They're literally spending it.

759
00:53:11,070 --> 00:53:11,670
It's the checking account.

760
00:53:11,750 --> 00:53:12,770
They're going ahead and using it.

761
00:53:12,810 --> 00:53:14,790
And I just got to say, like, I could be sucker.

762
00:53:14,990 --> 00:53:16,270
I could totally be wrong here.

763
00:53:16,730 --> 00:53:21,410
You know, as Bitcoiners, we're pretty resistant to propaganda and emotional manipulation.

764
00:53:21,610 --> 00:53:27,330
I think that comes from a healthy skepticism and a true understanding of how the system actually operates and what the evil is behind it.

765
00:53:27,330 --> 00:53:29,970
but I'll tell you like with Ross Albrecht,

766
00:53:30,090 --> 00:53:33,510
like Trump totally had me dead to rights with releasing Ross Albrecht.

767
00:53:33,570 --> 00:53:34,790
Like if I had been stateside,

768
00:53:34,810 --> 00:53:36,870
I would have found a way to vote and I'm sure I could have in a few states.

769
00:53:37,130 --> 00:53:41,910
I like that was an emotional tug that absolutely he happy.

770
00:53:42,090 --> 00:53:43,130
He had me.

771
00:53:43,330 --> 00:53:47,430
And I see the same sort of thing here with Jack where the Jack Dorsey

772
00:53:47,430 --> 00:53:50,570
redemption arc is one of my favorite stories right now.

773
00:53:50,570 --> 00:53:53,710
And I absolutely love to see it. Now, again, it's me putting my own,

774
00:53:53,750 --> 00:53:55,930
like, you know, my own thoughts. I'm reading his mind.

775
00:53:55,930 --> 00:53:56,930
and then pushing their things there.

776
00:53:56,970 --> 00:53:58,630
And maybe he's not this wonderful person,

777
00:53:58,670 --> 00:53:59,190
but I'll tell you what,

778
00:53:59,230 --> 00:54:00,370
I fucking love the story

779
00:54:00,370 --> 00:54:01,290
and I'm going to stick with it

780
00:54:01,290 --> 00:54:01,930
at least for the time being

781
00:54:01,930 --> 00:54:03,410
until I know otherwise.

782
00:54:03,590 --> 00:54:06,490
Because to go from the guy behind Twitter

783
00:54:06,490 --> 00:54:07,630
and all the censorship

784
00:54:07,630 --> 00:54:08,630
and deplatforming

785
00:54:08,630 --> 00:54:10,110
and just how god-awful it was,

786
00:54:10,150 --> 00:54:11,430
you can think of the 2016 election

787
00:54:11,430 --> 00:54:12,110
and the run-up there,

788
00:54:12,190 --> 00:54:13,790
just like before Elon bought it,

789
00:54:14,050 --> 00:54:16,830
just how terrible that public square was.

790
00:54:17,610 --> 00:54:19,030
That anytime there was anyone

791
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:21,130
who had just the smallest threat

792
00:54:21,130 --> 00:54:22,270
to I'd say that kind of,

793
00:54:22,290 --> 00:54:24,050
we say that kind of modern leftist,

794
00:54:24,050 --> 00:54:26,490
postmodernist kind of order.

795
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:28,030
They were getting just smack down,

796
00:54:28,110 --> 00:54:29,050
removed, silence, gone.

797
00:54:29,170 --> 00:54:29,850
And it works.

798
00:54:29,950 --> 00:54:31,510
Like, deplatforming absolutely works.

799
00:54:31,870 --> 00:54:33,270
I'll never forget the episode of him

800
00:54:33,270 --> 00:54:35,030
on Joe Rogan with Tim Pool.

801
00:54:35,130 --> 00:54:36,870
That just seemed like an absolute struggle session.

802
00:54:37,430 --> 00:54:38,990
So for him to then, you know,

803
00:54:39,090 --> 00:54:41,890
I had a very bad taste in my mouth about Jack then.

804
00:54:42,210 --> 00:54:43,050
Absolutely did.

805
00:54:43,490 --> 00:54:45,030
And then for him to sell Twitter,

806
00:54:45,130 --> 00:54:45,770
and basically he's like,

807
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:47,110
working with the Human Rights Foundation,

808
00:54:47,530 --> 00:54:49,250
building out tools for political dissidents.

809
00:54:49,430 --> 00:54:50,890
He's all in on Bitcoin

810
00:54:50,890 --> 00:54:52,490
in terms of now meeting the exchange

811
00:54:52,490 --> 00:54:53,670
at four million merchants.

812
00:54:53,670 --> 00:54:54,730
And he doesn't have to do that.

813
00:54:55,050 --> 00:54:56,970
And there probably is a little bit of, let's say,

814
00:54:57,090 --> 00:54:59,710
risk to the company in doing so.

815
00:54:59,930 --> 00:55:02,270
Either perceived risk or just the way people are going to interpret it

816
00:55:02,270 --> 00:55:03,630
or the resources that are going to it.

817
00:55:03,890 --> 00:55:04,990
We've got BitKey.

818
00:55:05,130 --> 00:55:06,650
You've got Cash App doing Bitcoin.

819
00:55:07,090 --> 00:55:09,790
I know that they finally raised the limit of what you could withdraw per day,

820
00:55:09,850 --> 00:55:10,610
which is fantastic.

821
00:55:11,770 --> 00:55:13,850
I didn't even mention BitChat.

822
00:55:13,950 --> 00:55:14,950
With him and Callie and BitChat,

823
00:55:15,030 --> 00:55:16,590
we have these decentralized communication networks.

824
00:55:16,830 --> 00:55:18,810
So I hope it's true.

825
00:55:19,190 --> 00:55:19,970
I love the story.

826
00:55:20,230 --> 00:55:21,490
I love what Jack is doing.

827
00:55:21,490 --> 00:55:27,970
I have some disagreements with the tech, but I still think it's a wonderful product and definitely has its niche market.

828
00:55:28,750 --> 00:55:29,850
And I want to see more of it.

829
00:55:30,250 --> 00:55:35,690
It's nice to actually have someone, because at least for now, I don't look at him necessarily with skepticism.

830
00:55:36,170 --> 00:55:37,810
It's like, I think you're actually a Bitcoiner.

831
00:55:38,070 --> 00:55:40,630
I think you're here for freedom and those fundamental purposes.

832
00:55:40,750 --> 00:55:41,270
What are we trying to do?

833
00:55:41,290 --> 00:55:43,090
We're trying to lift humanity beyond the point.

834
00:55:43,170 --> 00:55:48,010
The separation of state and church was massive in terms of improving our living standards.

835
00:55:48,370 --> 00:55:50,070
Getting away from forced labor

836
00:55:50,070 --> 00:55:51,750
into instead having the Industrial Revolution

837
00:55:51,750 --> 00:55:54,430
and engines, combustion engines,

838
00:55:54,530 --> 00:55:56,410
was massive for our human advancement.

839
00:55:56,850 --> 00:55:58,450
And I really do think that the next leap forward

840
00:55:58,450 --> 00:56:00,170
in human advancement comes from that separation

841
00:56:00,170 --> 00:56:00,930
of state and money.

842
00:56:01,250 --> 00:56:02,110
I think Jack does too.

843
00:56:02,470 --> 00:56:03,850
I think he's doing a really good job

844
00:56:03,850 --> 00:56:05,350
of at least setting up the foundation,

845
00:56:05,670 --> 00:56:07,150
not necessarily to make it happen,

846
00:56:07,450 --> 00:56:09,110
but to make it easier for it to happen,

847
00:56:09,190 --> 00:56:10,070
to carve out that path.

848
00:56:10,110 --> 00:56:11,010
To be the first one to go down it.

849
00:56:11,030 --> 00:56:12,670
So I love what Square's doing.

850
00:56:13,410 --> 00:56:14,750
I love what the team over there is doing.

851
00:56:14,750 --> 00:56:15,790
I love the Freedom,

852
00:56:16,010 --> 00:56:17,690
the Human Rights Foundation work they're doing,

853
00:56:17,690 --> 00:56:19,490
the tools for freedom fighters that they have.

854
00:56:19,850 --> 00:56:21,230
BitChat, which by the way, guys, if you haven't already,

855
00:56:21,570 --> 00:56:22,670
there's already been a few cases.

856
00:56:22,850 --> 00:56:25,170
Like we heard, like Ben heard directly from people in Jamaica

857
00:56:25,170 --> 00:56:26,130
that were using BitChat.

858
00:56:26,550 --> 00:56:29,350
We talk about like being prepared, right?

859
00:56:29,370 --> 00:56:31,670
You should learn these tools, especially so that even if you're not,

860
00:56:31,910 --> 00:56:33,690
let's just say you're not even going to necessarily take all your Bitcoin

861
00:56:33,690 --> 00:56:34,670
and self-custody right now.

862
00:56:35,090 --> 00:56:36,490
Learn how to self-custody now.

863
00:56:36,770 --> 00:56:39,470
So if something goes a little bit wonky, you start seeing some smoke,

864
00:56:39,530 --> 00:56:41,850
you're concerned there's fire, you can take self-custody

865
00:56:41,850 --> 00:56:43,330
and you're not panicking to do so.

866
00:56:43,410 --> 00:56:44,370
You already know how to use it.

867
00:56:44,370 --> 00:56:53,050
And on that same note, one app from Jack Dorsey and Callie BitChat, which is basically a Bluetooth mesh network communications app, which is so cool.

868
00:56:53,170 --> 00:56:58,070
It means that you can talk with people without the Internet as long as you're within a certain kind of geographical region.

869
00:56:58,110 --> 00:56:58,910
We can find a way to you.

870
00:56:59,610 --> 00:57:01,850
It's one of those things, too, that you should also do right now.

871
00:57:01,850 --> 00:57:06,990
You should have that on your phone, have it ready like you have a fire extinguisher under the sink in case there is a outage.

872
00:57:07,310 --> 00:57:08,570
There is a emergency.

873
00:57:09,070 --> 00:57:14,190
There is some sort of a natural disaster that you're already familiar with another tool that can help you in that sort of event.

874
00:57:14,190 --> 00:57:19,690
It's the same way that you want to make sure that you're familiar with Bitcoin self-custody before you feel that you absolutely need to.

875
00:57:20,110 --> 00:57:21,570
And trust me, you actually need to right now.

876
00:57:21,690 --> 00:57:23,470
So that's my thoughts on Jack and Square.

877
00:57:23,550 --> 00:57:24,190
I love what they're doing.

878
00:57:24,670 --> 00:57:35,410
And I hope, because I'd love to see the numbers, I suspect the amount of people using Bitcoin for transactions at the terminals is quite low, particularly compared to the entirety of all the transactions.

879
00:57:36,010 --> 00:57:42,670
What I really hope is going back to that kind of 2017 era where we thought we're going to get a lot more of this medium of exchange kind of kicking off.

880
00:57:42,670 --> 00:57:45,010
I hope we can just set it and forget it

881
00:57:45,010 --> 00:57:46,470
because these things will take time.

882
00:57:46,550 --> 00:57:47,770
I hope that at no point in time,

883
00:57:47,830 --> 00:57:49,550
I hope this isn't too costly for them on the back end.

884
00:57:49,970 --> 00:57:51,390
This never has to be repealed

885
00:57:51,390 --> 00:57:53,110
because it's one of those things that like,

886
00:57:53,430 --> 00:57:54,410
if it's just there,

887
00:57:54,730 --> 00:57:56,730
people will eventually find their way to it, right?

888
00:57:57,170 --> 00:57:58,530
Bitcoin, you're a merchant.

889
00:57:58,690 --> 00:57:59,690
You got a, say you got a one,

890
00:57:59,890 --> 00:58:01,590
you got, you know, Keys Pub, right?

891
00:58:01,630 --> 00:58:02,550
Down in Florida, right?

892
00:58:02,570 --> 00:58:04,630
We have Keys Pub down in Florida as accepting Bitcoin.

893
00:58:04,990 --> 00:58:05,990
No one's really using it, right?

894
00:58:06,330 --> 00:58:07,230
But then we have that,

895
00:58:07,270 --> 00:58:08,650
but we never got the retail FOMO.

896
00:58:08,750 --> 00:58:09,550
We never got the euphoria.

897
00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:10,990
As soon as you do,

898
00:58:11,350 --> 00:58:12,790
if you're already ready to accept it,

899
00:58:13,070 --> 00:58:14,610
you know people are going to want to experiment with it.

900
00:58:14,670 --> 00:58:15,810
You know they're going to want to try it.

901
00:58:15,830 --> 00:58:17,330
We just don't know when that wave is coming.

902
00:58:18,530 --> 00:58:21,970
Yeah, and I think it's funny you talked about Ross Ulbrich

903
00:58:21,970 --> 00:58:23,730
and potentially coming stateside.

904
00:58:23,870 --> 00:58:25,890
I mean, I honestly didn't realize this

905
00:58:25,890 --> 00:58:28,210
until I started doing some digging here lately.

906
00:58:28,210 --> 00:58:31,630
But I mean, if you listen to some of the United States founding fathers,

907
00:58:31,730 --> 00:58:33,890
I know you're up in the Great White North,

908
00:58:34,030 --> 00:58:37,030
but what they said about banks historically,

909
00:58:37,490 --> 00:58:40,010
it is very interesting and kind of eye-opening.

910
00:58:40,010 --> 00:58:41,490
I'll read a couple of quotes here.

911
00:58:42,030 --> 00:58:50,730
Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to John Taylor in 1816 that said, I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

912
00:58:51,670 --> 00:59:04,970
And Benjamin Franklin said the inability of colonists to get power to issue their own money permanently out of the hands of George III and the international bankers was the prime reason for the Revolutionary War.

913
00:59:04,970 --> 00:59:10,850
And now we're all all of a sudden supposed to just be like, oh, you know, BlackRock, Larry Fink and all of these guys.

914
00:59:11,190 --> 00:59:15,170
It's, you know, good that they're getting into Bitcoin.

915
00:59:15,170 --> 00:59:25,970
But I think, you know, getting back to the point of what you're saying, kind of the freedom money in that self custody, I think is extremely important just because I mean, these are American values.

916
00:59:25,970 --> 00:59:31,630
These are the reasons why America was, you know, built up and become the most powerful country in the world.

917
00:59:31,630 --> 00:59:35,810
And we've kind of lost our eye, got our eye off the ball just a tad bit.

918
00:59:36,270 --> 00:59:39,130
And, you know, this degradation takes years at a time.

919
00:59:39,230 --> 00:59:46,570
So I think the only way back to, you know, true self-sovereignty is having, you know, self-custody and utilizing all of these tools that you're describing.

920
00:59:46,670 --> 00:59:48,630
And you guys do great work over at Bitcoin Mentor.

921
00:59:48,710 --> 01:00:01,030
So why don't you tell us a little bit about that and some of the developments that you're seeing over at Bitcoin Mentor just in your time and in this past, what, like a little over a year, I think, is how long you guys have been doing it?

922
01:00:01,030 --> 01:00:01,790
or am I wrong?

923
01:00:01,850 --> 01:00:02,930
It's a little longer than that.

924
01:00:03,050 --> 01:00:03,790
A little longer than that.

925
01:00:03,830 --> 01:00:05,430
So we launched on the last halving,

926
01:00:05,530 --> 01:00:07,130
and then I've been full-time with the company

927
01:00:07,130 --> 01:00:09,470
and BTC Sessions since like February of this year.

928
01:00:09,510 --> 01:00:10,430
But even to that point,

929
01:00:10,550 --> 01:00:12,570
I'm pretty sure the US had two attempts

930
01:00:12,570 --> 01:00:14,790
at a central bank before the Federal Reserve as well too.

931
01:00:15,330 --> 01:00:20,510
The base gentlemen that were the founding fathers

932
01:00:20,510 --> 01:00:22,310
were well aware of the threat that bankers were

933
01:00:22,310 --> 01:00:24,010
to society, to the nation as a whole,

934
01:00:24,270 --> 01:00:25,630
and they still are guys.

935
01:00:25,710 --> 01:00:26,890
And that's why we want to make sure that we like,

936
01:00:27,330 --> 01:00:27,970
make the mistake.

937
01:00:28,230 --> 01:00:29,550
Like I always assume that the computer

938
01:00:29,550 --> 01:00:30,530
is not a trusted environment.

939
01:00:31,030 --> 01:00:33,590
just assume the bankers want your bitcoin and that's what they're trying to do they're gonna

940
01:00:33,590 --> 01:00:37,110
do everything they can to try and get your bitcoin and the best thing you can do is keep it so over

941
01:00:37,110 --> 01:00:40,870
at bitcoin mentor what we do is basically education and consulting usually for self-custody but

942
01:00:40,870 --> 01:00:44,630
realistically it's anything in bitcoin it's not large commercial mining and it's just the one-on-one

943
01:00:44,630 --> 01:00:49,430
education kind of thing you can think about basically for anyone that usually it's kind of

944
01:00:49,430 --> 01:00:53,270
one of two avenues either they don't have anyone in their life that's also involved in bitcoin they

945
01:00:53,270 --> 01:00:56,150
just want someone to maybe consult on the best setup for them kind of just double check the

946
01:00:56,150 --> 01:01:02,070
homework look over everything make sure they're okay um or a lot of the times they're um professionals

947
01:01:02,070 --> 01:01:06,870
entrepreneurs they just don't have the bandwidth right the resources are free and available that's

948
01:01:06,870 --> 01:01:12,390
exactly what we do at btc sessions i will happily send you the best videos my recommendations here's

949
01:01:12,390 --> 01:01:16,390
some articles here's my favorite books i will give you everything because we're here for adoption

950
01:01:16,390 --> 01:01:20,790
but you do have people some people are figuring this out that are going from zero to a large

951
01:01:20,790 --> 01:01:25,190
position very quickly they don't have the bandwidth to do their 40 hours per week let alone like 100

952
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:28,650
hours to prepare and figure out what the best self-custody setup is. And so they're more than

953
01:01:28,650 --> 01:01:32,790
happy to pay somebody like they do for an accountant or a lawyer to come on board, advise and help them

954
01:01:32,790 --> 01:01:36,410
make sure they're good, they're set up. And ideally at the end of our time together, you don't need us

955
01:01:36,410 --> 01:01:40,690
anymore. You can go out and show somebody else. But in terms of insight, I'll give you like three

956
01:01:40,690 --> 01:01:45,130
insights that I've had from this last year that are really strong, particularly in Canada, but

957
01:01:45,130 --> 01:01:52,610
also in the US as well. So one, the boomers are coming. And so I am seeing a lot of older

958
01:01:52,610 --> 01:01:58,010
generation and the most the best thing about it is that they're coming from a place of kind of like

959
01:01:58,010 --> 01:02:03,270
it's all about their grandkids it really is it's that it's the it's the antithesis to the boomer

960
01:02:03,270 --> 01:02:07,510
meme in the sense that they're coming in and they're like i just like even times like my family

961
01:02:07,510 --> 01:02:10,930
thinks i'm crazy but i just want to set them up and i really believe that this is the way that

962
01:02:10,930 --> 01:02:15,490
it's going to happen and i agree with that sentiment and so it's not even for them it's for

963
01:02:15,490 --> 01:02:20,870
the next generation and their grandkids and i love to see that legacy building the other one is that

964
01:02:20,870 --> 01:02:24,710
a lot of the players that are coming in that again, you can think of that, that these are

965
01:02:24,710 --> 01:02:29,410
older people that have substantial wealth and that they're taking a large position in Bitcoin.

966
01:02:29,990 --> 01:02:34,370
And so what are they selling? Real estate. I've seen a ton of people. They're not liquidating

967
01:02:34,370 --> 01:02:39,530
necessarily their S&P 500. It's not their equity. I'm seeing a lot of real estate investors selling

968
01:02:39,530 --> 01:02:44,150
off parts of their portfolio or sometimes the thing in its entirety and moving into Bitcoin.

969
01:02:44,590 --> 01:02:50,270
I've also heard, I also have, let's say inside information. I also know of gold bullion dealers

970
01:02:50,270 --> 01:02:52,090
that were selling gold and buying Bitcoin.

971
01:02:52,530 --> 01:02:53,910
It's the sound money camp.

972
01:02:54,090 --> 01:02:57,170
So our allies, our friends, our like-minded friends

973
01:02:57,170 --> 01:02:59,510
and the other sort of sound money hard assets camp

974
01:02:59,510 --> 01:03:02,730
are figuring this out and taking a Bitcoin position,

975
01:03:02,870 --> 01:03:04,110
which is wonderful to see.

976
01:03:04,830 --> 01:03:07,190
The other one, because this question is the one that,

977
01:03:07,190 --> 01:03:09,490
these are the two questions I get all the time,

978
01:03:09,750 --> 01:03:10,830
which again, goes back to,

979
01:03:11,150 --> 01:03:12,510
you should have this adversarial mindset

980
01:03:12,510 --> 01:03:13,490
and you should be prepared.

981
01:03:14,130 --> 01:03:15,510
A lot of times I used to get,

982
01:03:15,610 --> 01:03:17,450
say like last year, a lot of the questions were on

983
01:03:17,450 --> 01:03:18,950
like kind of best self-custody practices.

984
01:03:18,950 --> 01:03:22,490
is people would run in and be like, Oh, I need a multi-ventor multi-sig, like right off the hop.

985
01:03:22,590 --> 01:03:26,350
It's like, just slow down. Let's just make sure that you can understand using a cold card,

986
01:03:26,490 --> 01:03:29,830
self-custody air gap transaction. We can build up to that, right? Maybe that's not the most

987
01:03:29,830 --> 01:03:33,150
appropriate setup for you. Everyone's going to be a little bit different and security is a moving

988
01:03:33,150 --> 01:03:36,990
target. I'm always trying to balance out the risk of loss versus risk of theft of overcomplicating

989
01:03:36,990 --> 01:03:44,570
things. But this year it's all non-KYC and privacy. No one trusts their government right

990
01:03:44,570 --> 01:03:48,870
now that is coming to talk to me. And they are already at the position where like, this is

991
01:03:48,870 --> 01:03:53,410
going to happen. I just don't know when it's going to happen. And I want to make sure that I'm

992
01:03:53,410 --> 01:03:57,130
prepared. So real estate investors getting into Bitcoin, older real estate investors getting into

993
01:03:57,130 --> 01:04:01,490
Bitcoin this year has been a lot of what I've seen. And it's like, it's almost every, it's

994
01:04:01,490 --> 01:04:06,390
probably more than every second conversation, probably 70% of the conversation that I'm having

995
01:04:06,390 --> 01:04:12,390
right now have a privacy element right baked into it. Damn, that's interesting. I definitely think

996
01:04:12,390 --> 01:04:16,210
like that's, I mean, from like real estate perspective, I mean, I know you're up in Canada,

997
01:04:16,210 --> 01:04:18,250
So you got to stay pretty warm.

998
01:04:18,370 --> 01:04:26,610
But I think the use of Bitcoin miners for heat is something that I've always been, it's always piqued my curiosity, especially in homes.

999
01:04:26,890 --> 01:04:31,990
Like I think that's going to, I guess, maybe revolutionize the home industry here.

1000
01:04:32,070 --> 01:04:35,230
But that's a completely different topic for another time.

1001
01:04:35,390 --> 01:04:41,970
And maybe that'll help avoid the collapse of another great real estate market here.

1002
01:04:42,250 --> 01:04:45,350
But either way, Nathan, you guys are doing amazing work.

1003
01:04:45,350 --> 01:04:51,710
So why don't you tell people where they can find out more about Bitcoin Mentor and where they can find out more about you, brother?

1004
01:04:52,270 --> 01:04:55,230
100%. So you can find me on Twitter as TheBTCMentor.

1005
01:04:55,390 --> 01:04:57,970
You can check out Bitcoin Mentor by going to BitcoinMentor.io.

1006
01:04:58,110 --> 01:05:03,210
But if you're going to do just one thing, one thing today, I want you to head to btcsessions.ca slash learn.

1007
01:05:03,590 --> 01:05:06,570
Pick a topic you don't know. Pick a skill you don't have in Bitcoin.

1008
01:05:07,110 --> 01:05:09,750
Do me a favor. Learn one new skill in Bitcoin this week.

1009
01:05:10,030 --> 01:05:13,390
Not even that. Do it today or tomorrow. You got 48 hours tops.

1010
01:05:13,390 --> 01:05:16,170
There's always an excuse. There's always something else that you have to do.

1011
01:05:16,430 --> 01:05:19,550
Stop making excuses. You don't know everything yet. Learn something new.

1012
01:05:19,750 --> 01:05:22,070
That's the best thing you can do for yourself, your family, and your security.

1013
01:05:22,550 --> 01:05:26,750
These guys are doing amazing work over at BTC Sessions, Bitcoin Mentor.

1014
01:05:26,810 --> 01:05:30,090
I highly recommend it. I mean, you guys have orange-pilled probably, I don't know,

1015
01:05:30,150 --> 01:05:32,610
at least millions maybe at this point in time.

1016
01:05:32,750 --> 01:05:35,150
Help them get custody, so keep up the great work.

1017
01:05:35,410 --> 01:05:36,870
And Nathan, thanks so much, brother.

1018
01:05:37,230 --> 01:05:37,770
Thank you, sir.

1019
01:05:37,870 --> 01:05:42,330
Thank you guys all for tuning in to another great episode of the State of Bitcoin podcast.

1020
01:05:42,750 --> 01:05:43,990
If you found some value in this one,

1021
01:05:44,090 --> 01:05:46,710
please hit that subscribe button and that like button

1022
01:05:46,710 --> 01:05:48,110
to help send this one to the masses.

1023
01:05:48,330 --> 01:05:49,610
And I've got a surprise for you guys.

1024
01:05:49,730 --> 01:05:50,950
I've got two more episodes

1025
01:05:50,950 --> 01:05:52,970
that you have the chance to watch here.

1026
01:05:53,090 --> 01:05:54,210
So go ahead and click one of them

1027
01:05:54,210 --> 01:05:55,970
and I'll see you guys all at the next one.