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It's 100% true. 100% true.

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I think a lot of people are like, how is it possible that BlackRock sucks up 800,000 Bitcoins and Singular sucks up 700,000 Bitcoins?

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And you have legit nation states buying hundreds of thousands of Bitcoin.

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And the price is where it's at.

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I would say probably 30, 40 countries are actively in Bitcoin mining.

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Not a super popular decision to tell the DOJ, hey, all this Bitcoin you're holding that you think you're going to sell for your own benefit.

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it well we're moving that over to treasury and we're going to hold on to it like dog's like f

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you no you're not so i mean bing bong i am back with another edition of the state of bitcoin

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podcast where i've got the man the myth the legend david bailey in the house and david has been

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pivotal in bringing in donald trump and all these politicians and truly just shaping the landscape

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in Bitcoin here in the United States.

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But David, I'm not going to lie to you.

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There's been a little bit of drama here,

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which I think it should be all positive

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because you've had the Bitcoin Magazine

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and Nakamoto essentially merge.

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Why don't you talk us through a little bit

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about what has just happened

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and what you announced just,

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what was it, last week?

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And yeah, why do you think

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you're getting a little bit of blowback

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because of all of this?

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Yeah, well, first off,

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thank you for having me on the podcast.

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And I felt like, you know,

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with all the bear market vibes that are out there coming on to a green candle podcast would be,

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you know, apropos. But yeah, I mean, I think it's bear market vibes. And it's like,

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I think our transaction, you know, the real story of our transaction is like, we just completed

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the first merger ever of a Bitcoin treasury company acquiring an operating business that

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is a Bitcoin operating business. And I think it's a fundamentally unique strategy that like,

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time will tell how effective it is and like we're executing it and trying to pioneer it.

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But yeah, I think the drama for the most part just stems from the bad performance of the stock,

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the bad performance of Bitcoin. I mean, this is just like typical bear market,

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you know, environment where no good news can be good news. It has to be bad news.

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So yeah, it sucks, but it is what it is. And I mean, I think for people who have been operating

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and building businesses for a while in this industry, it's just par with the course. I mean,

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And this is like, I think it's my fifth bear market, if that's what we're calling this now.

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So, you know, those that can survive the ugliest parts of each downturn are set up in a position to thrive when the oxygen comes back to the space in the industry.

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And so, you know, that's been my experience is like all the those that can be most opportunistic and kind of can can parse for themselves what's good and what's bad in the downtimes are set up to outperform.

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Yeah, let's dive into that a little bit more because I think, I don't know how much in advance you guys plan out this acquisition, but it seems like you guys kind of got unlucky, where Bitcoin is basically at the lowest it's been and a 50% drawdown.

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But was this something that just kind of was planned out for a while? And, you know, it just was kind of bad luck that Bitcoin, you know, had the downturn that it was? Or did you see this as more of just kind of like an opportune time to build in the bear market and kind of grow it when, you know, maybe everything and the vibes are a little bit low, opposed to, you know, maybe the valuations of things just skyrocketing and things getting a little crazy in like a bull market?

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it? Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, first off, in terms of just this transaction itself,

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when we set up Nakamoto originally to go public, and we raise money around, you know, building a

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kind of a new kind of treasury company, you know, BTC Inc and UTXO were kind of from the kind of

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genesis of this idea, the operating assets and businesses that we want to contribute into the

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business. Now we want to buy more operating businesses than just those two. So our vision

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is more expansive than just those two businesses. But we want to buy iconic brands with strong cash

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flow, durability, correlation to Bitcoin, you know, because we're measuring our benchmark is

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Bitcoin. So Bitcoin's performance. And so we want to have assets that can keep pace over time with

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what Bitcoin's growth does so that, you know, in Bitcoin terms, let's say, you know, this transaction

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in a hypothetical, these numbers are not correct, but hypothetically, it costs us 1000 Bitcoins of

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dilution to buy these businesses, then we need to earn back a thousand Bitcoin of non-dilutive

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income. And like that's, you know, if we can earn that back over some reasonable period of time,

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now, not only did it not cost us anything, but we actually still can control and own the assets

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and the strategic value of them. So that's kind of the thought process around what type of

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operating businesses that we want. And, you know, we started with these two because I already own

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them. I'm the major shareholder

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of them. Our management team

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and the strike team that

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put together even the Nakamoto fundraise

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and all the different pieces of what has become Nakamoto

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are the same team.

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So yeah,

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we've been working on this process.

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We hit our deadline, but from the very

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get-go, it was Q1 of this year

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was when we were going to close the transaction.

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And

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the timing is shitty

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timing to close a merger.

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I will say that

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Because of the mechanics of the transaction and how it works, you know, we basically, we negotiated, like we put together this pipe deal that all this money came into.

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And we basically said, hey, we're going to invest the business in this pipe transaction with everyone else.

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Like we're riding with everyone in terms of what happens to the stock price from here.

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And I don't think, I mean, at least we didn't anticipate the stock, you know, taking such a beating.

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and so you know because of how the mechanics worked in the structure we ended up getting paid

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about you know one fourth of like what we originally you know the valuations of the

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business came in that now i think probably valuations have changed in this market environment

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but even still like we're getting sold at like i think a roughly a 3x EBITDA number which from any

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kind of just investor perspective is an incredible opportunity so um i do think like there's great

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opportunities that come in the bear market. And to your point, valuations come down on the

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businesses that we want to acquire. Talent is cheaper. You're not competing with as many sources.

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There's a lot of places where good deals can get created. Whereas when you're trying to grow,

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you need to be planting seeds in the bear market and harvesting during Bitcoin summer,

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okay? The proverbial Bitcoin summer. And so I think what a lot of people do instead

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is they try to invest in the growth in the Bitcoin summer

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rather than focusing on harvesting seeds

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that have already been planted.

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And they never get to see the EBITDA

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or growth trajection to actually materialize

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because then we switch into a different market environment.

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So you just have to make sure that you're like,

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basically, you don't want to be lagging

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the macro cycle in Bitcoin.

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You want to be front running macro cycle in Bitcoin.

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So it's hard to do that

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because it's a contrarian thing to do.

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Everyone else is doing the opposite of it.

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So you have to be able to think for yourself,

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which is, you know, takes conviction and takes experience.

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And I mean, I've made this whole kind of thesis

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and worldview is a derivative of us

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making every mistake you can possibly make

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and having to survive at making every mistake.

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I mean, I started this business when I was 22.

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I'm 35 right now.

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like uh uh yeah like you don't make it that long without learning how to survive and correct for

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your mistakes and so yeah our our worldview is painted and and and created by the mistakes we've

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made in the past yeah and i think it's it's interesting because it is an ever-changing

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landscape especially in the bitcoin space too and you know you guys at nakamoto were kind of

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one of the first i guess let's say like bigger bigger names to come in in the bitcoin treasury

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companies. But I think the unique thing about, you know, what you guys do at Nakamoto and what

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you've done and, you know, what Jack Maulers has done at 21 is you guys kind of went in like as a

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strict Bitcoin treasury play where it seemed like, you know, that you guys were, you know,

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the first goal was to acquire Bitcoin. And now it seems like you guys are kind of trying to,

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I guess, shift to acquire businesses so you could get that cashflow to get Bitcoin. Look,

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I don't want to put words into your mouth, but is that kind of like in short, what you guys are

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looking to do now was first get the Bitcoin on the balance sheet and then get, you know, some,

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I guess, Bitcoin cashflow slash positive businesses on the balance sheet to help

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acquire more Bitcoin in the future? Yeah. So, you know, in general, we want to build

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an iconic, globally known, very profitable Bitcoin powerhouse that can

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provide all sorts of sovereign Bitcoin products and services and can wield its Bitcoin in such a

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way to generate outsized performance in the traditional capital markets more broadly.

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So we don't necessarily only have to play in Bitcoin. We can play in other arenas around

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Bitcoin. But the goal is to always grow the amount of Bitcoin we have at the company.

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So, you know, where the vision started was like we actually before we did Nakamoto, we were actually underwriting most of the Bitcoin treasury companies.

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So, for example, MetaPlanet, which a lot of people know, fantastic company.

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We're the seed investor in MetaPlanet from, you know, it was us and a few of our friends that put in the first capital into that into that company.

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We've done probably 15 to 20 treasury companies that we've underwritten at the seed stage level.

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So, you know, we had a lot of kind of exposure to this concept before deciding to do it at

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Nakamoto.

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And the one place that we saw an opportunity to really innovate on the model and where

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we think all the treasury companies are eventually going to go is how do you monetize the Bitcoin

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on your balance sheet to make money?

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Like you need to generate income.

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It can't just be a business model driven purely by dilution.

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It has to be driven by value creation.

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And I think Saylor has a very, very compelling way that he does it.

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It's highly scalable.

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he's creating value by resolving an asset liability mismatch that investors have and

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what investors are looking for from the product he's created. So he is creating a lot of value.

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But I think if you can't out-sailor in that regard, then you have to create value in other

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ways. And I think there's a lot of ways to create value. I mean, just go look around the world,

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there's an infinite number of ways to create value. And so we wanted to monetize our Bitcoin

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and generate non-dilutive income.

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And so that started by us wanting to focus

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on recreating Bitcoin,

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what we call Bitcoin securities,

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which is just like, you know,

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securitized products or equities

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that have some correlation

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or relationship to the performance of Bitcoin.

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We wanted to launch, you know,

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these Bitcoin equities in every market around the world.

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We're still pursuing that strategy,

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but right now that's not a super viable strategy

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given the market context.

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It's like, you know, if you want to eviscerate,

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You set your balance sheet right now, you do a Bitcoin treasury company, you turn one Bitcoin into half a Bitcoin, whereas previously you turned one Bitcoin into 10 Bitcoin.

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But what we are looking for is always the best places for us to allocate capital relative to the amount of risk that we're taking on and our time horizon that we can invest as investors.

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And so that comes from owning Bitcoin.

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That comes from deploying that Bitcoin in other instruments and derivatives.

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that comes from investing it into other companies that we think maybe have outsized growth prospects

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or in unique markets that we want to tap into.

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It also means acquiring private companies that have cash-flowing, income-generating businesses

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that over time allow us to continue to grow our Bitcoin balance sheet

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or if we're trading at a discount to our Bitcoin holdings to buy our stock back.

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And so at the end of the day, if you can't dilute in an accretive way for your shareholders and you don't generate income in an accretive way for your shareholders, then what are you doing as a business?

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Like, what are you?

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Yeah, I mean, that's a great question.

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But I mean, you brought up Sailor's strategy.

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I kind of want to dive into that a little bit because, I mean, Sailor's obviously had like such a head start.

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And it seems like he's just like different.

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Yeah, I mean.

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It's a different game.

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Yeah.

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So, you know, how do you balance, I guess, looking at something like somebody like Sailor and like, you know, do you look at him as like, oh, we can potentially copy this strategy?

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Or are you just looking at this as like you said, a completely different game and we have to find other ways to add value opposed to, you know, maybe some of these other income products or, you know, preferred equities or preferred stock offerings that Sailor's doing?

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so we're trying to play a completely different game because like we don't see how we can beat

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sailor at his own game so like and i mean that in the most uh uh you know it's with bitcoin you're

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competing against everyone but at the same time like you know a rising tide lifts all boats and

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like uh uh it's a friendly competition but um uh so yeah like we have to differentiate because we

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have to provide compelling value that you know is unique and differentiated and has a different

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risk profile and and a different upside um you know but like at the same time like to survive

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in business in general when your competitors create something that works really really well

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well like you have to be open-minded about uh copying it you know like uh that's just part of

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business so i would say like with the preferreds i think it's a super compelling product i think

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what he has built for microstrategy is um uh very unique and differentiated i'm probably more

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closely following the preferreds that are being issued by um a strive and meta planet to see how

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they perform like is there space for more than one and we'll watch and if it works really well

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we're going to copy it but like if we we want to kind of have the benefit of watching others

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demonstrate how effective it is

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because it's really hard to unwind

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those types of decisions to your capital stack once you done them So yeah I mean I think we open to doing them We just want to watch and learn and be maximally informed before we do And I think

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we want to have a compelling strategy and approach that's unique, regardless of whether we want to do

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preferred stuff on the road or not. Yeah, that's all fair to say. I mean, obviously, this is just,

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you know, future outward looking and, you know, maybe kind of projecting how the Bitcoin industry

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and the Bitcoin treasury play will kind of evolve over time.

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But, you know, I think I want to get back to how the Bitcoin treasury companies,

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you know, performed last year.

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I mean, I think just from, you know, the perspective of everybody in the industry,

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I think everybody anticipated Bitcoin to be at a different place,

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you know, where it is right now.

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But, you know, I think from what everybody's seeing,

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and, you know, I don't think necessarily Bitcoin Twitter is real life

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or anything like that by any means.

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But I think from the treasury plays,

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I think it was kind of a unique dynamic

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that played out this last year

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because it seemed like, like you said,

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last year when everybody got started,

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it was essentially you buy one Bitcoin,

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you get 10 back.

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And now it's you buy one and you get half a Bitcoin.

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How have the market's dynamics changed?

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And why do you think it's changed so drastically

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and swung the other direction?

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So first off, you have to think about Bitcoin equities in general, and that's broader than just digital asset treasures.

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I hate the term dat, but it's like a term of art right now.

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But you have to think more broadly than just that category.

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But at the end of the day, these things are all, they have some beta, some correlation to Bitcoin's performance and their risk on assets.

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So when Bitcoin performs well and people are looking for marginal more risk and more

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performance relative to Bitcoin, they're going to flow into the riskier assets.

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And likewise, when they're risk off and they're cautious and conservative.

226
00:16:40,125 --> 00:16:42,565
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They're going to rotate from riskier assets into safer assets.

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And so I think you've seen that rotation play out with Bitcoin treasury companies.

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As Bitcoin's ripping, everyone wants to be in the next hottest treasury company.

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When Bitcoin is dumping, they want to be in cold, hard, cold storage Bitcoin with no counterparty risk whatsoever.

243
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That makes sense to me.

244
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Like, I think the other kind of like thing we've seen play out like trend was that way too many dots came to the market way too quickly.

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And so what went from just like, I mean, we were underwriting a lot of these.

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00:18:26,065 --> 00:18:38,085
And so what went from like us underwriting, you know, one a month or one a quarter to like, you know, one a month to like one a week to, you know, getting hit with 20 a day.

247
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I mean, just like an overwhelming number.

248
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And not all of these treasury companies were created equal.

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First off, I think treasury companies that are built on assets other than Bitcoin, I'm not going to say they all, I'm not going to paint them all with one bright, wide brush.

250
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But in general, I think you have to build these to be long term durable vehicles.

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And if you build on an asset that is fundamentally building on sand, like you're not going to perform well.

252
00:19:06,785 --> 00:19:28,285
So like a lot of liquidity was sucked out of the market by people launching, you know, you name it, crypto token bullshit in a dat form, you know, and they're raising capital from investors that don't necessarily know better between the different assets or, you know, would have played in one speculative arena, but they are playing in this other one for whatever reason.

253
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So the other issue that was created is like not all of these these DATs have a similar vision of what they're trying to build.

254
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And, you know, some of these were very much driven by just opportunism and seizing the opportunity.

255
00:19:45,825 --> 00:19:52,525
And there are some very exploitative agreements that have been papered where there's just a max extraction going on.

256
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I mean, where there's like asset management agreements that are draining out 2% or 3% of the assets from the DAP per year every year on a 20-year contract.

257
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I mean, it's really hard to grow a balance sheet if you're draining it at that pace consistently over time.

258
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So anyway, the broader point I'm getting to is that not all these businesses are the same.

259
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It's hard for the TradFi markets to differentiate what makes them unique or one better versus the other right now.

260
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we're in kind of a prove it to me period where the dots that are differentiated and have a

261
00:20:25,725 --> 00:20:30,805
compelling strategy are going to outperform those that don't and who are going to who are going to

262
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lag i think we're going to see consolidation you know in in the space um but you know i think that's

263
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a good thing honestly like you know we like investors need to understand like which ones

264
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are going to succeed in the future what's going to make it to the next wave of treasury companies

265
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and which ones are not and they're going to it's going to inform their investment decisions you know

266
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downstream. So yeah, I just think 500 dats coming to market in a three month, four month period

267
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is a very difficult thing to sustain and then cross it with a risk off attitude that's come

268
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from Bitcoin selling off. And you're set up for just a calamity in the treasury space.

269
00:21:08,545 --> 00:21:14,465
Yeah. And I mean, I guess let's dive into like the Bitcoin price aspect of all this. Like how

270
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How are you guys like looking at that as something, you know, as a driver of when to get in?

271
00:21:20,725 --> 00:21:22,445
Is there any sort of timing?

272
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Because I know like in the business space, raising money, all these different aspects,

273
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these things take time.

274
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And sometimes, you know, with these deals, it's just unfortunate timing,

275
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kind of like the acquisition that you guys just had.

276
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So is there a way that these, I guess we'll call them DATs,

277
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because I guess that's the new term right here.

278
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Is there a way that they could potentially start to time?

279
00:21:45,045 --> 00:21:51,525
Because it seems like a lot of these treasury companies came on and essentially bought the top and have written it.

280
00:21:51,705 --> 00:21:52,925
Yeah, that includes us.

281
00:21:53,045 --> 00:21:53,645
That includes us.

282
00:21:53,745 --> 00:21:56,365
I think we aped all of our cash in at like 116.

283
00:21:57,125 --> 00:21:57,385
Yeah.

284
00:21:57,805 --> 00:22:04,405
You know, how to answer the question.

285
00:22:04,405 --> 00:22:10,805
So with the price of Bitcoin, like you cannot predict the price of Bitcoin or what it's going to be.

286
00:22:10,805 --> 00:22:30,405
So the fundamental challenge that operators have who are running public companies, and I'm going through this process as we're kind of getting our sea legs of being a public company, is you have to kind of divorce yourself from the short-term changes in the stock price or the short-term changes in Bitcoin.

287
00:22:30,405 --> 00:22:33,065
and you have to think in like longer term strategic lens.

288
00:22:33,545 --> 00:22:35,045
And so it doesn't really matter

289
00:22:35,045 --> 00:22:38,265
if the price is kind of shitting the bed today

290
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because you're not making the decision

291
00:22:39,665 --> 00:22:41,845
to buy this company or to do this thing

292
00:22:41,845 --> 00:22:43,705
based on the market dynamics today.

293
00:22:43,705 --> 00:22:44,965
You're doing it based on where you think

294
00:22:44,965 --> 00:22:47,285
the market dynamics will be five years from now,

295
00:22:47,365 --> 00:22:47,965
10 years from now.

296
00:22:48,065 --> 00:22:49,825
Like what fundamentally is the type of company

297
00:22:49,825 --> 00:22:50,405
you want to be?

298
00:22:50,525 --> 00:22:54,765
And then the rest is sort of lesser important considerations

299
00:22:54,765 --> 00:22:56,885
around, you know, what are we trying to build?

300
00:22:56,885 --> 00:23:07,225
So to the question of like the price in general, can you repeat the question?

301
00:23:07,505 --> 00:23:09,125
Sorry, I'm...

302
00:23:09,125 --> 00:23:09,985
No problem.

303
00:23:10,125 --> 00:23:13,925
It was basically just like with the way that, you know, these public companies work, is

304
00:23:13,925 --> 00:23:18,025
there a way that these, you know, treasury companies had almost timed the market or is

305
00:23:18,025 --> 00:23:18,685
it just...

306
00:23:18,685 --> 00:23:19,525
I don't think so.

307
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I don't think so.

308
00:23:20,345 --> 00:23:25,605
And I think like part of the reason we want to have income is because there is an asymmetry

309
00:23:25,605 --> 00:23:26,805
to buying Bitcoin.

310
00:23:26,885 --> 00:23:29,845
that comes from accumulating Bitcoin in down cycle.

311
00:23:30,005 --> 00:23:31,285
So like, let me give you a scenario,

312
00:23:31,285 --> 00:23:34,385
which maybe is self apparent to most people,

313
00:23:34,485 --> 00:23:38,965
but I think there are some surprising conclusions

314
00:23:38,965 --> 00:23:39,765
you can pull from it.

315
00:23:39,865 --> 00:23:42,485
But if the price of Bitcoin is sitting at 100,000

316
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and it trades like,

317
00:23:44,545 --> 00:23:46,485
and you have 100,000 bucks,

318
00:23:46,525 --> 00:23:47,905
you can buy one Bitcoin, okay?

319
00:23:48,385 --> 00:23:50,325
If the price of Bitcoin goes from 100,000

320
00:23:50,325 --> 00:23:52,905
down 50,000 bucks to 50K a Bitcoin,

321
00:23:53,265 --> 00:23:54,145
you can buy two Bitcoins.

322
00:23:54,625 --> 00:23:56,865
If the price of Bitcoin goes from 100,000 bucks up

323
00:23:56,885 --> 00:24:02,845
$50,000, the same amount of dollars, you can buy two thirds of a Bitcoin. So there's actually an

324
00:24:02,845 --> 00:24:07,645
asymmetry where when the price of Bitcoin goes down, the amount of Bitcoin that you can buy

325
00:24:07,645 --> 00:24:13,725
grows disproportionately relative to the amount of you lose on the upside. Meaning that it's like

326
00:24:13,725 --> 00:24:20,085
more valuable to be deploying cash as the Bitcoin price goes down, you know, than it is to deploy

327
00:24:20,085 --> 00:24:29,505
that same cash, you know, only in up environments, like you're going to way outperform. So yeah,

328
00:24:29,585 --> 00:24:34,865
I think the goal for these treasury companies is they need to learn how to operate in all market

329
00:24:34,865 --> 00:24:40,345
environments and conditions. Like they need to be able to, you know, we could have a prolonged

330
00:24:40,345 --> 00:24:46,005
multi-year bear market. There is nothing in how Bitcoin is structured that says that that's not

331
00:24:46,005 --> 00:24:55,365
a possible thing. And from my perspective, it pays to assume and prepare for the worst always.

332
00:24:56,385 --> 00:25:00,585
So, you know, that's how you survive the bear markets is like you always assume it can get

333
00:25:00,585 --> 00:25:06,125
worse than it is. And I don't think a lot of people really, you know, they build their business

334
00:25:06,125 --> 00:25:12,345
around how they think they wish things would be in the future, rather than what happens if it gets

335
00:25:12,345 --> 00:25:19,245
worse. So, yeah, I think it's impossible to time the price of Bitcoin. I think it's a really tough

336
00:25:19,245 --> 00:25:27,685
thing. I will say if there's one thing that I wish retrospectively, like looking at our business,

337
00:25:27,685 --> 00:25:37,445
is when Dat Mania is going on, there's a lot of pressure to just amplify the beta of the business

338
00:25:37,445 --> 00:25:40,345
and to amplify its Bitcoin exposure.

339
00:25:40,565 --> 00:25:44,945
And I think that some of those things that the market wants

340
00:25:44,945 --> 00:25:49,105
might be in conflict with the long-term strategy

341
00:25:49,105 --> 00:25:50,965
of what maximizes performance.

342
00:25:51,645 --> 00:25:54,825
And so you have to be able to tell the market no

343
00:25:54,825 --> 00:25:57,645
or tell your shareholders no, no and why,

344
00:25:57,785 --> 00:26:00,605
or no, this is why we're not doing that.

345
00:26:02,285 --> 00:26:07,085
Or otherwise, the rat race of your competitors

346
00:26:07,085 --> 00:26:09,845
will drive you into strategic business decisions

347
00:26:09,845 --> 00:26:11,825
that maybe like are inconsistent

348
00:26:11,825 --> 00:26:13,825
with what you want to do long-term.

349
00:26:14,325 --> 00:26:17,885
So yeah, yeah.

350
00:26:18,165 --> 00:26:20,145
Can you dive into that a little bit more?

351
00:26:20,225 --> 00:26:21,825
Yeah, so like, let me give an example.

352
00:26:21,825 --> 00:26:23,665
Like I took on this convertible note,

353
00:26:24,545 --> 00:26:26,405
$200 million convertible note

354
00:26:26,405 --> 00:26:29,025
at a 0% interest rate for the first two years.

355
00:26:30,265 --> 00:26:32,025
You know, the guys who gave me the note, nice guys.

356
00:26:32,205 --> 00:26:33,345
I'm not besmirching them.

357
00:26:33,385 --> 00:26:36,165
They have a certain business model, you know,

358
00:26:36,165 --> 00:26:47,765
And for an operator who is purely looking at the marketplace of like, okay, similar has a convert, microstrategy has a convert.

359
00:26:48,005 --> 00:26:54,385
This is kind of the go-to playbook is get a low-interest convert that gives you a long-term duration on the note.

360
00:26:56,025 --> 00:26:58,445
That's what the market wants, and that's the path forward.

361
00:26:58,445 --> 00:27:12,125
Well, you know, our company, for example, the difference between our company and those companies and doing something through like a reverse merger structure, which is sort of what we did, is like we don't have a mature like cap table like those companies do.

362
00:27:12,205 --> 00:27:14,305
Like we don't have a bunch of index funds that own our stock.

363
00:27:14,305 --> 00:27:30,005
And so typically when you do like a convertible note and the people who do the convert short your stock, there's a bid underneath the stock that comes from these like passive index funds and passive investors that like keep the stock from massively tanking.

364
00:27:30,065 --> 00:27:34,425
I mean, it's still like, you know, when GameStop does a convertible note, they might drop 20 or 30 percent on a convertible note.

365
00:27:35,305 --> 00:27:39,525
But then they'll stop and then the stock recovers as the as, you know, capital flows in.

366
00:27:39,525 --> 00:27:53,025
Well, if you don't have the, you know, age and maturity of your cap table, then if you have a $200 million short put on your stock, like it's going to wreck your stock price.

367
00:27:53,565 --> 00:27:59,245
And so that's something that like we didn't appreciate about the difference between the different businesses.

368
00:27:59,625 --> 00:28:06,605
And there's really, you know, wasn't there wasn't any reference point to point to and say, hey, look, this is the this is the overhang that this is going to cause.

369
00:28:07,465 --> 00:28:12,865
And so, you know, taking that debt ultimately had an outsized impact to our business.

370
00:28:13,025 --> 00:28:16,865
And so the question is like, well, did we really need to take the $200 million convert in the first place?

371
00:28:16,925 --> 00:28:18,965
Like, was that a mistake to take that convert?

372
00:28:20,765 --> 00:28:24,785
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384
00:29:19,031 --> 00:29:23,171
You know, but from at the time that we were doing it, you know,

385
00:29:23,231 --> 00:29:24,991
the mindset is maximize the amount of Bitcoin.

386
00:29:25,111 --> 00:29:27,931
Bitcoin is going to 250,000 bucks, 350,000 bucks.

387
00:29:27,931 --> 00:29:30,791
And so we're getting a 0% interest loan that can't be called.

388
00:29:30,871 --> 00:29:32,071
And we're going to be able to deploy this in Bitcoin.

389
00:29:32,171 --> 00:29:33,011
We're going to get to write it up.

390
00:29:33,291 --> 00:29:35,631
So like that's the pressure of the market speaking,

391
00:29:35,631 --> 00:29:39,171
where the market wants you to time the price of Bitcoin

392
00:29:39,171 --> 00:29:40,491
because that's what the market wants

393
00:29:40,491 --> 00:29:44,231
is they want you to only make the right decisions

394
00:29:44,231 --> 00:29:46,451
and be the beneficiaries of that.

395
00:29:46,991 --> 00:29:49,471
But the reality is no one can know exactly

396
00:29:49,471 --> 00:29:50,711
what's going to happen to the price of Bitcoin.

397
00:29:51,071 --> 00:29:53,231
Why did we need to take on that convert in the first place?

398
00:29:53,391 --> 00:29:56,191
What strategically did it achieve for us to do so?

399
00:30:01,531 --> 00:30:03,391
I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer to that.

400
00:30:03,451 --> 00:30:04,751
I'm just saying as an operator,

401
00:30:04,751 --> 00:30:08,851
you're dealing in the arena of all these competitors, like you're executing based on

402
00:30:08,851 --> 00:30:12,031
like what you're being judged against your peers on. And if you're trying to do something unique

403
00:30:12,031 --> 00:30:16,051
and differentiated, those two things might not be exactly aligned with what you should be doing.

404
00:30:17,091 --> 00:30:20,531
Yeah, I mean, it definitely is like, like we were saying, you know, a little bit earlier,

405
00:30:20,531 --> 00:30:24,551
it's kind of like a different game when you're when you're getting into, you know, the Treasury

406
00:30:24,551 --> 00:30:29,791
play, and you're kind of like a newer company. Is there any, I guess, I mean, you know, obviously,

407
00:30:29,791 --> 00:30:35,211
you're new to this, right? Being a publicly traded company CEO, obviously you've run, you know,

408
00:30:35,331 --> 00:30:42,371
Bitcoin Inc or BTC Inc and UTXO for quite some time, but it seems like it's a little new territory

409
00:30:42,371 --> 00:30:49,951
for you. And does that, are there any, I guess, worries or, you know, like obviously some growing

410
00:30:49,951 --> 00:30:54,731
pains that you've been going through, like any like big lessons that you've taken as, you know,

411
00:30:54,731 --> 00:30:57,171
the first time CEO of a publicly traded company?

412
00:30:59,191 --> 00:31:03,691
You know, there are a lot, there are a lot. And I mean, I think, you know,

413
00:31:03,731 --> 00:31:06,931
I don't know what the math is on like how many CEOs of public companies are

414
00:31:06,931 --> 00:31:10,731
first time CEOs versus their, like, this is their second or third, you know,

415
00:31:10,751 --> 00:31:13,231
public company. I would imagine, you know,

416
00:31:13,431 --> 00:31:18,931
most founder let businesses ultimately the founder becomes the CEO of the

417
00:31:18,931 --> 00:31:22,071
company. And, you know, you, you got to learn the rodeo somehow. I mean,

418
00:31:22,071 --> 00:31:29,271
you know, everyone's a rookie at something at some point. But, you know, from the perspective

419
00:31:29,271 --> 00:31:32,951
of the things that I've learned, I think that are the most different from a private company is like,

420
00:31:33,011 --> 00:31:40,531
first off, you know, these are regulated securities. There's a certain duty and level

421
00:31:40,531 --> 00:31:47,071
that is expected of public companies. And so there's just way, way, way more red tape in terms

422
00:31:47,071 --> 00:31:51,631
of saying things, you know, defending yourself. Like, that's one of the most challenging things

423
00:31:51,631 --> 00:31:54,751
about this whole like drama from this past week is like there's people just saying like

424
00:31:54,751 --> 00:32:01,191
like really nasty things about it that are just not true and like my instinct is like i want to

425
00:32:01,191 --> 00:32:06,771
jump in and like be like hey that's not true and the reality of running a public company is you just

426
00:32:06,771 --> 00:32:14,471
you can't do that you just have to be you know take the take the blows and so you know um uh so

427
00:32:14,471 --> 00:32:19,051
i think communication is much harder whereas like i mean as a private company ceo i've been canceled

428
00:32:19,051 --> 00:32:22,131
for those of you that don't know me, I've been canceled like three or four times. And it's like,

429
00:32:22,171 --> 00:32:26,491
I'm just used to like going in there and like going blow for blow and like, let's, let's duke

430
00:32:26,491 --> 00:32:32,531
it out. Um, so I think like communication is a challenge. I think, uh, you know, getting your

431
00:32:32,531 --> 00:32:37,851
pacing as a public company is a challenge. Like when I first came into this, you know, I'm used

432
00:32:37,851 --> 00:32:42,591
to like startup speed where like everything's measured in, in like weeks, you know, like what

433
00:32:42,591 --> 00:32:46,811
did, what are we getting done? What are we shipping this week? Um, whereas with a public

434
00:32:46,811 --> 00:32:51,591
company, there's a different pacing and you, it takes a little adjustment to understand like the

435
00:32:51,591 --> 00:32:56,051
tempo of what a public company can do and all the moving parts, like, you know, just to put out a

436
00:32:56,051 --> 00:33:01,331
press release, people don't understand like how many eyeballs have to touch or be a part of just

437
00:33:01,331 --> 00:33:08,311
a press release. You know, when you consider all the different levels of, you know, PR sign-off,

438
00:33:08,431 --> 00:33:12,391
marketing sign-off, legal sign-off, like, like depending on what's in the agreement, like

439
00:33:12,391 --> 00:33:18,731
opposite parties legal signing off. Like it's very complex. So, um, you just have to like,

440
00:33:18,731 --> 00:33:23,631
kind of pace yourself correctly. And it's hard to know that without like, just like,

441
00:33:23,831 --> 00:33:26,731
you know, getting on a ship and going sailing and getting your sea legs. I mean,

442
00:33:26,731 --> 00:33:31,671
that's what I would describe it to, um, and understanding the rhythm. And then, you know,

443
00:33:31,671 --> 00:33:39,651
I would say the last thing is like, when you're like a first time CEO, there is an, um,

444
00:33:39,651 --> 00:33:46,711
and maybe an overemphasis on like thinking that other people have, you know, know the answers to

445
00:33:46,711 --> 00:33:51,231
the things that you're dealing with. And, you know, what I found through this process is like,

446
00:33:51,271 --> 00:33:54,951
there's definitely people who have very experienced informed opinions that I would,

447
00:33:55,251 --> 00:33:59,191
I would overweight their opinions versus others. But like, at the end of the day,

448
00:33:59,951 --> 00:34:05,771
they're all opinions. And, you know, on topics that, you know, you might think that there's only

449
00:34:05,771 --> 00:34:10,251
one way to think about, you know, maybe I've had 40 phone calls with like different shareholders

450
00:34:10,251 --> 00:34:13,871
on that topic and half of them tell me one thing and half of them tell me another thing. And so

451
00:34:13,871 --> 00:34:19,471
at the end of the day, like there's no replacement for like you being the decision maker. There is

452
00:34:19,471 --> 00:34:25,991
no experience that or wisdom that a banker or a lawyer or an investor is going to be able to tell

453
00:34:25,991 --> 00:34:29,011
you that's going to tell you like, this is the right decision because so-and-so told me to make

454
00:34:29,011 --> 00:34:35,631
this decision. It's truly you're on your own. So, you know, the nice thing about running a

455
00:34:35,631 --> 00:34:39,571
public company for 13 years is like, we've always been on our own. That's how we've always made

456
00:34:39,571 --> 00:34:45,711
decisions. But it's definitely a challenge, especially when the market's going through a lot

457
00:34:45,711 --> 00:34:52,771
of volatility and you're getting a lot of scrutiny. It's like you want to make sure that you kind of

458
00:34:52,771 --> 00:34:57,471
follow the best practices and the best practices are really go make money and operate with integrity.

459
00:34:57,471 --> 00:35:04,291
Those are the best practices. That's a pretty wide, ambiguous advice to give, but I think it's true.

460
00:35:05,631 --> 00:35:21,431
Yeah, now I want to kind of shift to a little bit more of, I guess, you know, what has happened with the political side of things, because, you know, you are obviously pretty vital in getting the Trump campaign and the Trump administration really onto the Bitcoin space.

461
00:35:21,431 --> 00:35:49,711
Obviously, Trump spoke in Nashville a couple of years ago. J.D. Vance spoke this past year. And I'm sure there's there's plenty of big announcements for the upcoming one here in Vegas. But, you know, how do you see, you know, I guess, how do you judge the overall, I guess, like administration, you know, just coming in just off the bat from your initial conversations to how things have kind of played out over the what past, you know, 14, 15 months or so.

462
00:35:49,711 --> 00:36:01,531
So, you know, first off, I want to say that the president has been an incredible advocate and his administration has been an incredible advocate for Bitcoin in our entire industry.

463
00:36:01,891 --> 00:36:06,711
And like we owe him a deep loyalty for everything he's delivered.

464
00:36:07,491 --> 00:36:10,131
No administration has ever delivered shit for us.

465
00:36:10,131 --> 00:36:14,111
Like they've only like literally come at us and attacked us.

466
00:36:14,111 --> 00:36:39,211
And so to have someone who's an actual, you know, partner and, you know, wants to dance with us and collaborate with us constructively like that, that's a complete breath of fresh air. And I think the path forward for like the political spectrum go like from this point forward, I think every administration will hold that same stance or should hold that same stance.

467
00:36:39,211 --> 00:36:45,891
you know i think you know uh in terms of just like the day-to-day political side the past six

468
00:36:45,891 --> 00:36:51,351
months i've been fully focused on nakamoto and executing on nakamoto and so i'm not i'm not um

469
00:36:51,351 --> 00:36:57,291
the point of the spear as i was a year ago on this topic i think that there's a lot of challenges

470
00:36:57,291 --> 00:37:02,671
that the administration has faced um you know i think the democrats have been much more

471
00:37:02,671 --> 00:37:10,451
resistant. I think there was more expectation that with the change in leadership in the

472
00:37:10,451 --> 00:37:13,951
Democratic Party, there'd be a change of tone on this issue. And it hasn't happened in a big way

473
00:37:13,951 --> 00:37:18,891
yet. There's been incremental progress, but not in a big way. And I think that the Trump

474
00:37:18,891 --> 00:37:24,571
administration also, there's the executive branch and the appointees that Trump has. And then there

475
00:37:24,571 --> 00:37:31,391
are the legacy career bureaucrats that actually work and do the work inside of the government.

476
00:37:31,391 --> 00:37:59,291
And so if you don't, you know, those are not political appointees. And so while the Trump administration and this political apparatus, I'd give an A plus to in terms of just like how supportive they've been. If that support doesn't go downstream into the actual career bureaucrats, they can stall out, you know, the most well-intentioned, well-supported initiatives of an administration.

477
00:37:59,291 --> 00:38:04,411
So, for example, like the strategic Bitcoin reserve, something that's been very slow to progress.

478
00:38:04,731 --> 00:38:10,971
You know, I know that there's been a lot of challenges the administration has faced, you know, internally within the government getting this done.

479
00:38:11,231 --> 00:38:19,831
As you can imagine, it's like not a super popular decision to tell the DOJ, hey, all this Bitcoin you're holding that you think you're going to sell for your own benefit.

480
00:38:19,991 --> 00:38:23,371
Well, we're moving that over to Treasury and we're going to hold on to it.

481
00:38:23,531 --> 00:38:25,331
Like DOJ is like, F you.

482
00:38:25,451 --> 00:38:25,911
No, you're not.

483
00:38:25,911 --> 00:38:42,291
So, I mean, so like you, it makes sense that it's not an easy thing to do, but I think maybe we underestimated or underappreciated, like just how, how, how wide and deep we need to be to truly penetrate, um, support from the government on some of these issues.

484
00:38:42,291 --> 00:38:46,511
yeah so that'd be like my high level response

485
00:38:46,511 --> 00:38:48,691
but I do think the wins that we've received

486
00:38:48,691 --> 00:38:50,931
in terms of the pardons

487
00:38:50,931 --> 00:38:52,951
the pardon for Ross Ulbricht

488
00:38:52,951 --> 00:38:56,291
SAB 121

489
00:38:56,291 --> 00:38:58,771
the Genius Act

490
00:38:58,771 --> 00:39:00,591
I think there's a lot in the Clarity Act

491
00:39:00,591 --> 00:39:01,951
that I feel like for Bitcoiners

492
00:39:01,951 --> 00:39:03,311
isn't as relevant

493
00:39:03,311 --> 00:39:05,571
there's also a lot in the Clarity Act that is

494
00:39:05,571 --> 00:39:08,551
and I know that there's been a lot of work done

495
00:39:08,551 --> 00:39:10,411
a lot of political capital spent

496
00:39:10,411 --> 00:39:11,851
on getting the Clarity Act across

497
00:39:11,851 --> 00:39:15,691
The thing I love the most about Bitcoin is the community.

498
00:39:16,191 --> 00:39:20,511
There are so many great people and so many lifelong friends that I've met at conferences

499
00:39:20,511 --> 00:39:23,651
all around the world, and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

500
00:39:24,131 --> 00:39:29,371
Now you can have the same opportunity by going to two of the biggest conferences in the world.

501
00:39:29,811 --> 00:39:33,911
There's Bitcoin Las Vegas in April 27th through 29th.

502
00:39:33,911 --> 00:39:36,531
You can use promo code GREENCANDLE, get 10% off there.

503
00:39:36,951 --> 00:39:40,371
I will be speaking on a panel there, so be sure to come and check it out.

504
00:39:40,371 --> 00:39:45,631
yell at me heckle me a little bit from the crowd or if you've never been to europe or if you're a

505
00:39:45,631 --> 00:39:51,571
european listener and you want to go to the biggest conference in europe go to btc prague it's on june

506
00:39:51,571 --> 00:39:57,551
11th through 13th i couldn't recommend having a european summon more and i'm doing a keynote and

507
00:39:57,551 --> 00:40:02,671
a panel there so be sure to come and check it out and use promo code green candle for 10 off

508
00:40:02,671 --> 00:40:08,951
all right enough from me let's get back into the show so i think you know they've done a great job

509
00:40:08,951 --> 00:40:12,331
but they're probably suffering from the same problem that the treasury

510
00:40:12,331 --> 00:40:15,711
companies are suffering from, which is like the price is down.

511
00:40:16,151 --> 00:40:18,311
The price is the yardstick of success.

512
00:40:19,191 --> 00:40:21,571
And so if the price is down, then it's like blame.

513
00:40:21,971 --> 00:40:25,111
The efforts are not being sufficient or they're not being, you know,

514
00:40:25,131 --> 00:40:26,451
thorough enough.

515
00:40:26,471 --> 00:40:30,851
And I don't think you can in any way blame this administration for the,

516
00:40:30,851 --> 00:40:33,071
the price performance. Like if anything,

517
00:40:33,071 --> 00:40:35,691
without what the administration has done, the price would be much lower.

518
00:40:35,691 --> 00:41:05,671
So, yeah, that's my general view.

519
00:41:05,691 --> 00:41:11,911
either the regulatory framework, their Bitcoin mining operations, their Bitcoin buying operations.

520
00:41:12,151 --> 00:41:17,211
I mean, there is multiple countries with multi-billion dollar stacks of Bitcoin that are direct

521
00:41:17,211 --> 00:41:24,251
derivative of the United States providing leadership on this topic. So I do think that

522
00:41:24,251 --> 00:41:30,751
that phenomenon is a major trend in Bitcoin that is still playing out and is going to get much

523
00:41:30,751 --> 00:41:38,851
bigger. And it really began in earnest with this admin. Yeah. And Eric, Trump has come out and said

524
00:41:38,851 --> 00:41:45,371
and kind of hinted at a lot of different countries around the world because potentially secretly

525
00:41:45,371 --> 00:41:51,951
stacking Bitcoin or mining Bitcoin and not really announcing it. Is that kind of, I guess,

526
00:41:52,051 --> 00:41:59,771
100% true. 100% true. Okay. Can you... Which is shocking that the price is down.

527
00:41:59,771 --> 00:42:13,451
Like that's, that's the thing. I think a lot of people are like, how is it possible that BlackRock sucks up 800,000 Bitcoins and Singular sucks up 700,000 Bitcoins and you have legit nation states buying hundreds of thousands of Bitcoin and the price is where it's at, you know?

528
00:42:13,451 --> 00:42:18,871
So I, but yeah, I mean, it's 100% happening.

529
00:42:18,971 --> 00:42:20,331
We've met with governments that are doing it.

530
00:42:20,431 --> 00:42:24,331
There's the number of governments that are mining has gotten very large.

531
00:42:24,391 --> 00:42:29,731
Like I would say probably 30, 40 countries are actively in Bitcoin mining.

532
00:42:30,791 --> 00:42:34,931
There's kind of like a process of like, you know, when countries decide to dip their toe

533
00:42:34,931 --> 00:42:36,571
into Bitcoin, like how do they dip it in?

534
00:42:36,611 --> 00:42:41,111
And like mining and using some like latent energy resource that's wasted seems to be

535
00:42:41,111 --> 00:42:47,171
the easiest yes to start with, but then it slowly progresses to, Hey, we need a strategic Bitcoin

536
00:42:47,171 --> 00:42:50,871
reserve. And there are multiple countries that maybe they wouldn't call it a strategic Bitcoin

537
00:42:50,871 --> 00:42:55,211
reserve, but in essence, it is a strategic Bitcoin reserve and they're, they're building

538
00:42:55,211 --> 00:43:01,271
them and growing them. Why haven't there been like announcements then? Is it, is there a potential

539
00:43:01,271 --> 00:43:05,491
they want to keep the price down? So they want to stack as much as possible because they realize

540
00:43:05,491 --> 00:43:10,931
it's a skid asset or why no big major announcements? Yeah. I mean, first off,

541
00:43:11,331 --> 00:43:18,411
no investor that is entering into any position is incentivized to want to make announcements

542
00:43:18,411 --> 00:43:22,971
about them entering into a position. They'd rather make the announcement when they're done

543
00:43:22,971 --> 00:43:26,891
entering into the position and they want you to go buy it or they want exit liquidity or something,

544
00:43:26,891 --> 00:43:34,971
but they're just not a reason to do it. And we've actually been a part of multiple

545
00:43:34,971 --> 00:43:41,151
nation state conversations where we've really tried to push them to announce it at our conference

546
00:43:41,151 --> 00:43:53,936
or like let us break news And they just like guys like there just there isn there isn a reason there isn a benefit for us to do this Now I do think that there are other ways that benefits can be captured

547
00:43:53,936 --> 00:43:55,316
where it does make sense to announce.

548
00:43:55,316 --> 00:43:58,016
So part of the reason that Trump announced

549
00:43:58,016 --> 00:43:59,156
that he was going to do an SBR

550
00:43:59,156 --> 00:44:01,856
is because he's trying to build political capital

551
00:44:01,856 --> 00:44:03,356
and a political coalition

552
00:44:03,356 --> 00:44:04,556
that's going to put him in the White House.

553
00:44:05,196 --> 00:44:08,576
Okay, well, every president who runs for office

554
00:44:08,576 --> 00:44:09,476
has the same dynamic.

555
00:44:09,656 --> 00:44:12,376
They need to build political will, political backing,

556
00:44:12,716 --> 00:44:23,716
And guess what? Like Bitcoin is incredibly popular with people around the world in every country, in every demographic, college educated, no education, rich, poor, black, white, Muslim, Christian, whatever.

557
00:44:24,296 --> 00:44:26,976
It is ubiquitous across society that people own Bitcoin.

558
00:44:26,976 --> 00:44:42,876
And so I think you'll see more nations, not necessarily the nation announcing that they're doing stuff, but the political leadership of those nations who want to score the political capital, talk about it because there's some utility to them to talk about it.

559
00:44:43,176 --> 00:44:50,416
But you're not going to see the Treasury Department give an update about how many Bitcoins they've accumulated in the market until there's some reason they should.

560
00:44:51,996 --> 00:44:52,996
Yeah, it's interesting.

561
00:44:52,996 --> 00:45:12,236
I guess I'm not super familiar, I guess, with the regulations around certain governments, but it seems like, you know, it would be, you know, because we've heard, of course, like some sovereign wealth funds, you know, announced that they're holding maybe IBID or, you know, the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund is famous for holding a lot of micro strategy stock.

562
00:45:12,236 --> 00:45:18,936
uh well i guess now strategy but um you know i guess uh yeah it doesn't uh uh benefit them

563
00:45:18,936 --> 00:45:23,456
necessarily to announce that that these governments are quietly stacking behind the

564
00:45:23,456 --> 00:45:29,176
scenes but 30 to 40 seems pretty significant to say the very least for on the mining side i'd say

565
00:45:29,176 --> 00:45:33,556
on like the stacking side where they're like they are they have a bitcoin balance sheet that they

566
00:45:33,556 --> 00:45:41,516
have to maintain and custody and protect shit it's probably still i mean i would i would expect

567
00:45:41,516 --> 00:45:46,616
it to be like 10, 10 plus. So, I mean, it's, it's, um, it's kind of crazy to say that number,

568
00:45:46,716 --> 00:45:50,696
considering that just a couple of years ago, it was like one, I mean, it was, it was, uh,

569
00:45:50,696 --> 00:45:55,556
El Salvador and, and what's Bhutan. So, you know, we've really got up the ladder pretty quickly.

570
00:45:55,556 --> 00:46:03,736
Um, but yeah, I think, um, uh, you know, if I were to kind of describe like the,

571
00:46:03,736 --> 00:46:10,516
where I'm like most excited in Bitcoin right now, it's really introducing these like very

572
00:46:10,516 --> 00:46:15,736
big picture ideas that touch all parts of society. Like how do we run the balance sheet of our

573
00:46:15,736 --> 00:46:21,396
government and fusing those ideas with Bitcoin, where we're making Bitcoin like real in a tangible

574
00:46:21,396 --> 00:46:25,656
way that affects people's lives. And like, you know, when a government has a balance sheet of

575
00:46:25,656 --> 00:46:29,516
Bitcoin and Bitcoin goes up, the whole country wins, you know, and likewise, when it goes down

576
00:46:29,516 --> 00:46:33,396
and there's a whole country that owns Bitcoin, the whole country loses. And I think, you know,

577
00:46:34,696 --> 00:46:39,216
watching that story play out is it's so fascinating and so interesting. And it's really,

578
00:46:39,216 --> 00:46:43,016
I feel like the process by which Bitcoin slowly eats the world.

579
00:46:44,156 --> 00:46:46,596
Yeah, and I think it's definitely going to be accelerating.

580
00:46:46,876 --> 00:46:52,396
But you mentioned, you know, about these governments potentially announcing at the Bitcoin conferences.

581
00:46:52,796 --> 00:46:56,836
I'm curious, with this merger that you guys just went under with Bitcoin Magazine,

582
00:46:57,016 --> 00:46:59,176
how is the conferences going to change, if any?

583
00:46:59,596 --> 00:47:02,096
And is there any potential of like expansion?

584
00:47:02,096 --> 00:47:07,656
Because I know you guys obviously have, you know, Vegas this year, Amsterdam, Abu Dhabi,

585
00:47:07,656 --> 00:47:10,496
Mina, you know, it seems like you guys are expanding.

586
00:47:10,956 --> 00:47:12,236
Yeah, Asia as well.

587
00:47:13,276 --> 00:47:15,636
So is there any, yeah, how is it going to change?

588
00:47:16,196 --> 00:47:18,796
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of opportunity for growth.

589
00:47:18,956 --> 00:47:24,476
I think, you know, this is probably not the time or place.

590
00:47:24,636 --> 00:47:26,316
I'm not really probably the one who to break that.

591
00:47:26,436 --> 00:47:28,396
Probably the CEO of BTC Inc. is.

592
00:47:29,016 --> 00:47:33,216
But yeah, I mean, we've built what I think is a really well-known business.

593
00:47:33,336 --> 00:47:35,996
I mean, I think most Bitcoiners have heard of these businesses that we've built.

594
00:47:36,656 --> 00:47:41,936
I feel like a large swab of just mainstream normies have heard of the Bitcoin conference.

595
00:47:43,016 --> 00:47:46,876
And, you know, we want to take this to the furthest level possible.

596
00:47:46,876 --> 00:47:47,756
We want to take this.

597
00:47:47,976 --> 00:47:55,336
We want to create assets that are going to be strategically important for how Bitcoin develops.

598
00:47:56,036 --> 00:47:59,896
You know, when Bitcoin's at a million bucks of Bitcoin, when Bitcoin's at 10 million bucks of Bitcoin.

599
00:47:59,896 --> 00:48:07,516
And so, yeah, we're looking for all sorts of ways to grow the TAM of what we're pursuing, what Bitcoin can pursue.

600
00:48:07,736 --> 00:48:09,316
And we have a lot of ideas.

601
00:48:09,436 --> 00:48:14,096
And we've never had a balance sheet of the size that we have to be able to go and pursue those ideas.

602
00:48:14,316 --> 00:48:16,616
And we are extremely creative people.

603
00:48:20,136 --> 00:48:22,156
We've been in Bitcoin for 13 years.

604
00:48:22,396 --> 00:48:25,056
We've seen it involved in all these different ways.

605
00:48:25,056 --> 00:48:32,276
you know i think having the resources that we have at nakamoto with a public company

606
00:48:32,276 --> 00:48:36,896
plus tied to the creativity we have of ways to create asymmetric value for bitcoin

607
00:48:36,896 --> 00:48:43,256
um there is a whole world of super interesting things that have just become possible to us with

608
00:48:43,256 --> 00:48:48,176
this merger and so uh i won't get into any specifics but i yeah it's a game changer for

609
00:48:48,176 --> 00:48:53,476
the company game changer yeah it definitely seems like it is going to be and it seems like there's a

610
00:48:53,476 --> 00:48:59,016
lot of different you know figures I'll call them uh influential people outside of Bitcoin that are

611
00:48:59,016 --> 00:49:04,316
now starting to get into the Bitcoin space you know obviously we've seen the likes of Saquon

612
00:49:04,316 --> 00:49:10,636
Barkley we've seen you know musicians artists kind of hint at it um you know maybe wear some

613
00:49:10,636 --> 00:49:15,996
Satoshi Nakamoto merch I mean it seems like everybody is kind of starting to go towards

614
00:49:15,996 --> 00:49:21,676
Bitcoin uh or at least it's starting to get a little bit more mainstream uh how much of a factor

615
00:49:21,676 --> 00:49:23,716
Or do you think that that plays into it?

616
00:49:23,716 --> 00:49:27,576
Because obviously, you know, you've been building in the Bitcoin space for 13 years.

617
00:49:27,576 --> 00:49:30,896
So now there's it seems like there's more eyeballs than ever on it.

618
00:49:30,896 --> 00:49:32,936
And that number just keeps going up exponentially.

619
00:49:33,456 --> 00:49:45,916
So, you know, how does that affect maybe the change of the speakers, the dynamic and, you know, maybe, you know, how you see, I guess, the marketing team, so to speak, of Bitcoin start to play out?

620
00:49:45,916 --> 00:50:08,156
Yeah, I mean, I think the most powerful, the most powerful message for Bitcoin is the ideas that underpin Bitcoin. And like, I think like the culture of Bitcoin is one of the most powerful tools we have to spread and expose people to these ideas without them having to be a book nerd.

621
00:50:08,156 --> 00:50:23,296
I mean, 99% of people are not book nerds. They're not going to go pick up, you know, an Ayn Rand novel or pick up some, you know, Mises novel to understand this stuff. And, you know, religion figured this out a long time ago.

622
00:50:23,296 --> 00:50:31,296
Like you don't have to read all of the deep lore of a religion in order to get the basic tenets of a religion.

623
00:50:31,296 --> 00:50:49,856
And so, you know, from the perspective of this being an ideological technology, us being able to condense down complex ideas into mimetic cultural, you know, forces is extremely powerful.

624
00:50:49,856 --> 00:51:05,016
And it's like why we spend so much time trying to prioritize getting artists, musicians, athletes, actors, people that the mainstream interact with through culture, because that's it's it's a force multiplying effect of getting our message out there.

625
00:51:06,636 --> 00:51:12,016
Yeah, I mean, it definitely is. And I mean, it brings in new audiences, new people who might not have done that.

626
00:51:12,076 --> 00:51:17,656
And I think at the end of the day, it's just a bunch of touch points that will make you essentially look into Bitcoin.

627
00:51:17,656 --> 00:51:23,456
You know, I mean, I know I probably heard about Bitcoin like three or four times before actually diving in.

628
00:51:23,796 --> 00:51:34,516
But I think I think it's actually not to interrupt you, but I think like on this point specifically, this is one of the key differentiators of what we've built at Bitcoin magazine and the Bitcoin conference.

629
00:51:34,516 --> 00:51:50,616
It's actually why I think the Bitcoin conference has become as massive and successful as it has been is because we did the best on displaying the Bitcoin counterculture and letting people who are not seeped in that world come and like get a taste of it.

630
00:51:50,696 --> 00:51:56,316
Like, I don't know what other conferences had half pipes at their conference of Tony Hawk skating on it.

631
00:51:56,316 --> 00:51:58,856
You know, I don't know other like like this.

632
00:51:58,936 --> 00:52:01,256
The Bitcoin conference is such a unique product.

633
00:52:01,556 --> 00:52:04,076
It's such a unique event experience.

634
00:52:04,516 --> 00:52:07,456
And that's because it's built on top of Bitcoin culture.

635
00:52:07,656 --> 00:52:18,856
And the reason it is built on top of Bitcoin culture is our entire team has been in Bitcoin so long that we were able to build a product that as Bitcoiners spoke to us.

636
00:52:19,656 --> 00:52:28,756
And that still is the underlying, what's the right word, vibes of the product.

637
00:52:28,756 --> 00:52:36,316
well can you hint at uh maybe some things that we should anticipate in vegas and here coming up in

638
00:52:36,316 --> 00:52:40,396
a couple months is there anything like uh surprising that that is the bitcoin culture

639
00:52:40,396 --> 00:52:45,856
that'll kind of i guess like dive into this well i mean i think in terms of the the bitcoin culture

640
00:52:45,856 --> 00:52:49,776
piece of it there's all sorts of ways that it shows itself at the conference i mean i think

641
00:52:49,776 --> 00:52:56,716
like we outside of just the content that we put on display like we try we have a huge effort to

642
00:52:56,716 --> 00:53:00,676
to make the event free for open source developers and open source projects so

643
00:53:00,676 --> 00:53:04,936
that we can pull in more technical people to the event that are willing to,

644
00:53:04,936 --> 00:53:08,656
you know, meet others and share ideas. Maybe people that are more introverted.

645
00:53:09,216 --> 00:53:09,776
You know, we,

646
00:53:09,956 --> 00:53:13,536
we have a whole Bitcoin bazaar where we just bring in a ton of merchants that

647
00:53:13,536 --> 00:53:18,716
are selling cultural artifacts for Bitcoin, like, and I,

648
00:53:18,716 --> 00:53:20,956
I don't even know the right way in a, like a peer to peer marketplace.

649
00:53:21,036 --> 00:53:25,156
And it's adds a really cool charm to the event. You know,

650
00:53:25,156 --> 00:53:29,256
we have a art gallery every year where we have tons of artists around the

651
00:53:29,256 --> 00:53:31,096
world come in and present and auction their art.

652
00:53:31,376 --> 00:53:34,716
I think someone told me we've sold over $10 million of art through these art

653
00:53:34,716 --> 00:53:39,056
auctions at the conference or some, some large number like that.

654
00:53:39,736 --> 00:53:43,876
And so those are all ways that we like imbue the, the, the,

655
00:53:43,876 --> 00:53:46,676
the ethos. And then every year we have narratives and stories that we try to

656
00:53:46,676 --> 00:53:47,836
develop. So like last year,

657
00:53:48,476 --> 00:53:51,516
probably one of the proudest moments that we've had at the conference was like,

658
00:53:51,556 --> 00:53:53,776
okay, we just got Russellbrook pardon. Like here,

659
00:53:53,776 --> 00:53:56,296
like we're also getting to address the entire Bitcoin community.

660
00:53:56,476 --> 00:53:58,196
Like that's extremely exciting.

661
00:53:58,336 --> 00:54:00,916
There's a couple narratives we're cooking on right now

662
00:54:00,916 --> 00:54:03,336
that we're excited to show off at the conference.

663
00:54:03,516 --> 00:54:05,176
And then every year in the programming,

664
00:54:05,296 --> 00:54:07,816
we try to have surprises that we drop as we get closer and closer.

665
00:54:08,036 --> 00:54:10,336
I don't want to like spoil any of our marketing plans,

666
00:54:10,496 --> 00:54:13,256
but I mean, yeah, every year,

667
00:54:13,556 --> 00:54:14,916
I don't know how we outdo ourselves,

668
00:54:15,056 --> 00:54:16,756
but the programming team just keeps one upping.

669
00:54:18,076 --> 00:54:20,036
Yeah, I mean, you guys are doing a great job.

670
00:54:20,036 --> 00:54:22,036
Obviously you had, like I said, you know,

671
00:54:22,036 --> 00:54:26,316
Trump a couple years ago, J.D. Vance and a bunch of other political figures of this past year.

672
00:54:27,176 --> 00:54:31,556
And yeah, I mean, I think it honestly it's played the conference itself has played like a pivotal

673
00:54:31,556 --> 00:54:37,216
role in just the political and cultural landscape in Bitcoin throughout, you know, at least the

674
00:54:37,216 --> 00:54:42,536
United States and globally, definitely now. But how do you, I guess, balance that as well? Because

675
00:54:42,536 --> 00:54:46,956
obviously, we've got Vegas, the biggest one here. But you guys, like we said, are expanding.

676
00:54:46,956 --> 00:54:52,796
how do you get a different vibe of you know how each of these conferences should be and

677
00:54:52,796 --> 00:55:00,976
you know what I guess each region is kind of I guess demanding or hungry for in in each region

678
00:55:00,976 --> 00:55:04,536
around the world that you guys are throwing these conferences at yeah man it's very different like

679
00:55:04,536 --> 00:55:07,436
the bitcoin community all over the world is one of the coolest parts about bitcoin

680
00:55:07,436 --> 00:55:12,696
is like it's very diverse it's extremely diverse and like different parts of the world

681
00:55:12,696 --> 00:55:16,156
have different ways of understanding what Bitcoin is to them.

682
00:55:17,296 --> 00:55:21,336
And the event kind of morphs into a reflection of like,

683
00:55:21,736 --> 00:55:24,996
who are the attendees and the speakers and the sponsors that constitute the event?

684
00:55:25,636 --> 00:55:28,276
And each event has a different flavor.

685
00:55:28,276 --> 00:55:31,256
And it's kind of hard to articulate exactly what makes them different.

686
00:55:31,376 --> 00:55:35,536
But if you go to each of the events, like they each have a different style

687
00:55:35,536 --> 00:55:41,536
and like primary interests that stem come out of that event.

688
00:55:42,696 --> 00:56:03,796
I don't know. It's interesting. I would say Europe is probably more anarchistic, more cypherpunk-y. I'd say Asia is more speculative, more investment-driven, more technology-driven. I would say mining-driven.

689
00:56:03,796 --> 00:56:15,696
I would say that the Middle East, not huge on the cypherpunk ethos, you know, more bigger on the self-sovereign ethos.

690
00:56:16,156 --> 00:56:21,396
So it's interesting to see like how different cultures, you know, make Bitcoin make sense to them.

691
00:56:22,596 --> 00:56:28,656
But yeah, I feel like we just try to do a good job of like reflecting the, we always hire people on the ground.

692
00:56:28,756 --> 00:56:29,876
We have team members on the ground.

693
00:56:30,076 --> 00:56:32,836
We spend all year trying to build the ecosystem in those markets.

694
00:56:32,836 --> 00:56:46,696
I think it's one thing that we're going to expand upon in the future is like, okay, we're doing a conference in these places. How can we expand the Bitcoin footprint even larger? And then, yeah, I think like we look at our business as, you know, the different arms of it.

695
00:56:46,696 --> 00:56:52,456
BTC Inc. is like an information services business. And I think that there's a broader swath of

696
00:56:52,456 --> 00:56:59,136
products and services that BTC Inc. can offer beyond just the conference and just the magazine.

697
00:56:59,136 --> 00:57:06,016
Those two things are platforms that we can use to do more for Bitcoin. And so, yeah,

698
00:57:06,776 --> 00:57:11,636
I think that answers your question. I hope so. Yeah, no, it does 100%. But David,

699
00:57:11,716 --> 00:57:15,656
you've been very generous with your time. And yeah, I mean, appreciate you coming in,

700
00:57:15,656 --> 00:57:21,776
shedding some light on some of the controversy and also to peek in a little bit behind the scenes

701
00:57:21,776 --> 00:57:26,356
as to how you've been able to help bring in, you know, this Trump administration and everything

702
00:57:26,356 --> 00:57:31,196
going on in the Bitcoin space. But why don't you tell people who don't know where they can find you,

703
00:57:31,316 --> 00:57:34,016
where they can find you and what else you got going on?

704
00:57:34,156 --> 00:57:39,376
Yeah, you can find us at Nakamoto.com, the Nakamoto handle, Bitcoin Magazine.com,

705
00:57:39,476 --> 00:57:43,076
b.tc. We really have a lot of places you can find us. You can find me, David F. Bailey,

706
00:57:43,076 --> 00:57:50,056
on Twitter. And, you know, as my wife would tell me, hate us or love us, you know,

707
00:57:50,736 --> 00:57:55,916
you're talking about us. So anyway, Brandon, thank you for having me on the space. And

708
00:57:55,916 --> 00:57:59,136
yeah, dude, hopefully we can do this again in a few months.

709
00:58:00,076 --> 00:58:03,536
Yeah, man, let's do it. Yeah, it was great talking to you. Thanks so much for your time.

710
00:58:03,536 --> 00:58:09,436
Cool. Thank you guys all for tuning in to another great episode of the State of Bitcoin podcast.

711
00:58:09,836 --> 00:58:11,076
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712
00:58:11,196 --> 00:58:13,796
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713
00:58:13,796 --> 00:58:15,196
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714
00:58:15,416 --> 00:58:16,716
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715
00:58:16,816 --> 00:58:18,036
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716
00:58:18,036 --> 00:58:20,056
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717
00:58:20,196 --> 00:58:21,296
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718
00:58:21,296 --> 00:58:23,056
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