Banks are moving because they're reacting to incentives that they can't ignore any longer.
And I think they're intimidated and afraid of where.
So some of it is incentive, some of it's self-preservation,
and also some of it's getting into the game so they can influence some control.
BlackRock, some of the biggest money managers now, it seems like Bitcoin isn't going away.
bing bong i am back with another edition of the state of bitcoin podcast where i've got the man
the myth the legend hunter albright now recurring guest on the state of bitcoin podcast but hunter
we've seen a huge revolution that i think started kind of heating up last year where you've kind of
coined it as the buy borrow die i want to dive into that because it seems like within the year
2025 and now as we're transitioning here early 26 it seems that revolution of bitcoin becoming the
apex predator of all the other collateral assets kind of coming in and swooping in
is taking over how have you seen this develop over this past you know 12 to 18 months and
how do you see it projecting here into the future yeah first of all brandon great to be back
always a pleasure to join you and talk about the state of bitcoin i think one of the things that
I'm really excited about it, despite where we ended the year, sort of from a sort of overall
perspective with the price being down at the end of the year, really think 2025, we're going to look
back on 2025 as being a really pivotal and transitional year for Bitcoin. I think there
were a lot of big shifts that happened. We saw the ETFs and institutional capital come in at the
beginning of the year. We saw a lot of regulatory changes. As I was traveling globally, talking to
people about Bitcoin, one of the other key trends that I noticed is that globally, the age of
ownership, first time ownership of a home is increasing. It's above 35 globally and even above
40 in a lot of markets. And so this access to long term assets, this access to assets that
appreciate over a longer period of time and really help people buy well or build wealth is changing.
And I think more and more people, especially within Gen Z, are looking at how can Bitcoin replace home ownership as a way to build wealth.
And I think that's been driving what we've been seeing people talking about buy, borrow, die, really thinking about how do you start to accumulate Bitcoin, hold on to it, leverage it as an asset, both for the long term appreciation, but also for the liquidity that it can provide you just to live your life or build a business.
Whatever your goals are, there's a way for Bitcoin to help facilitate the achievement of those goals.
Yeah, and it seems like that's been kind of the movement here, right?
Where a lot of people are seeing just the availability of that.
I mean, we had Trump tweet out news about the Strategic Reserve late on a Sunday night when markets are closed.
So I think that was just kind of an eye-opener to a lot of TradFi.
And then now we've kind of seen banks start to turn around and be a little bit more friendly, I guess, let's say, towards Bitcoin and try to embrace it, get some of these products.
How have you seen, I guess, the banking industry as somebody who's kind of worked in that area and maybe a little adjacent to there as, I guess, being more friendly towards the Bitcoin space as it's developed throughout 25?
Yeah, I mean, I think this really speaks to the commitment to the interest and the enthusiasm around Bitcoin more broadly. And I think the community as a whole has done a great job advocating for it. Because what I would say is like banks are not just now discovering Bitcoin, right? They have known about it. They haven't moved for a lot of reasons, policies, conservative nature of the banks.
But things are now starting to shift where banks are moving because they're reacting to incentives that they can't ignore any longer, that they want to get into the game.
In fact, they're afraid if they don't get into the game, they're going to miss out.
So some of it is incentive, some of it's self-preservation, and also some of it's getting into the game so they can influence some control and some direction into how things start to evolve within sort of the Bitcoin economy as a whole.
So I think it's very encouraging that banks are wanting to get in. It's also threatening in terms of both the competition, but where might they want to take Bitcoin as an asset? And how might they try to influence some of the direction, whether that's through regulation, whether that's through product offerings? But I think it is drawing a lot more attention from the traditional banking system.
Yeah, let's dive into that a little bit more.
So what do you mean by, I guess, how do you frame that?
Like which directions banks want to take it?
Because obviously they've got big bags, right?
There's a lot of big money now, obviously, starting to get into Bitcoin.
And maybe we'll get into that here in a little bit later.
But, you know, banks obviously have a lot of influence, you know, whether you believe the MSCI kind of collusion against micro strategy or not.
I mean, they had some of that ruling here today.
But anyway, these banks have a lot of influence when it comes to just traditional capital markets and, you know, what they can offer to their clients.
So, you know, I'm kind of curious, like, where do you see, I guess, the bank's biggest influence?
And what are some things that, you know, maybe worry you to a sense?
And then also you think that are positives of the banking industry coming in?
Well, so I think, first of all, the banks are going to move because their goal is to make money, right?
both for the sort of operators of the banks as well as then the shareholders of the bank.
And so they're moving because of incentives.
And I think they're intimidated and afraid of where sort of the independence, the self-sovereignty,
sort of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin potentially could go.
And they're trying to get involved and understand how they can play a role in that
and defend a lot of the existing business that they have.
And so that's going to continue to be a play both when you think about sort of just the general fiat economy and how much profits and how critical the traditional banking infrastructure is around that and what Bitcoin represents as a way of displacing it.
Now, I am generally more positive in terms of the banks coming in and looking at the banks as really larger distribution channels, larger channels for greater awareness in terms of the asset class as a whole.
And also, you know, I tend to be I feel like I'm pretty pragmatic and realistic about that.
We're just not going to make this major leap with large numbers of people.
And so we're going to need people to find their own path to Bitcoin through different ways of navigating the TradFi into more of a Bitcoin, living a Bitcoin powered life and a Bitcoin ecosystem.
And in fact, part of that, I think, is stablecoin.
I think it's actually really encouraging to see more banks adopting the use of stablecoins,
allowing sort of for custody of stablecoins, because I think that becomes a really key
bridge of helping demystify some of the technical natures of Bitcoin to then sort of allow people
to get into the asset class from a usage perspective and understanding a transactional
perspective of Bitcoin and how it integrates with other currencies and financial channels.
Yeah. And I think you're phrasing there, I really did like, right? I mean, you said the incentives,
right? I mean, I think at the end of the day, when banks see Bitcoin, they've been, I guess,
in a sense, sort of, like you said, kind of intimidated, right? About how Bitcoin can almost
displace them or anything like that. But I think, you know, if I talk to my grandparents or something
like that, you know, she's not going to be trying to hold her own private keys or anything. You know,
at least right now, that is maybe something that's a little too intimidating for her. But, you know,
she does trust the bank for better or for worse at this point. So I think, you know, these banking
institutions now coming in bring a level of, I guess, let's say validity towards Bitcoin, you know,
especially when we have BlackRock, some of the biggest money managers.
Now, it seems like Bitcoin isn't really going away.
But it seems like there is some sort of that, I guess,
the element of the banks coming in and trying to figure out Bitcoin as the asset.
I feel like over time, we'll see the collateral rates
kind of just go down across the board and everything else.
But how do you see this playing out, I guess?
because obviously you guys with SALT have some of the collateral aspect of it.
So, I mean, you guys have been ahead of this game.
Now the banks are trying to come in.
Have you had any of those conversations with TradFi banks?
And if not, do you think that they're coming?
And yeah, just see if you could shed a little light on that for us.
Yeah. So one, I think, as I said,
I'm positive in terms of banks showing interest in the market, right?
If we look at what many of us believe in terms of the potential value of Bitcoin as an asset class being equal or greater to gold in terms of getting to be 20 trillion plus, right?
There's a lot of growth in there all around in terms of tools and strategies and tactics for people to be able to tap into, whether you're a business or whether you're an individual, to build wealth, to build value and really build financial flexibility as you go forward.
And I think the banks understand that and they know that they need to figure out how to play in that. I think it's also a big indicator. I do believe that it's a signal that just from digital assets as a whole, Bitcoin is going to, in my opinion, Bitcoin is going to lead the way.
and then we'll start to see other tokenized assets and other sort of forms of digital assets
come into play in terms of how people manage them, how people accumulate them, and how people
really start to drive sort of how they manage their own assets and value and wealth over a
longer period of time. Now, I think banks are going to struggle, especially early on. I do think it's
a signal of trust that, and it helps build trust that banks are coming in, that larger institutions
are coming in, that the ecosystem is attracting this capital. But I also know, having come from
sort of tradified companies, that there's some real infrastructure that's going to be difficult.
I think one is going to be sort of, our bank's going to be able to talk to Bitcoiners. Our bank's
going to be able to interface with the culture appropriately that's going to attract the clients
and keep the clients that they want to serve. Secondly, there's risk compliance that is really
different than what banks are going to be used to. So how are they going to sort of adapt to
some of the volatility and some of the risk considerations, the custody considerations that
are present today in digital assets in a way that it's not the same in terms of TradFi.
And then the third one is like a multi-currency and reporting and sort of analytics within
traditional banks, adding Bitcoin into the equation of how you do your accounting, how
you do your reporting and how you do your sort of analytics is easier said than done.
And there's a lot of complications, especially within legacy systems, that I do believe will take banks a longer time.
Now, that doesn't mean they're not going to find ways to get in, whether that's through acquisition, whether it's through partnership.
They're going to find a way to start to figure out how to play into it because I think the incentives are there and their customers are starting to ask about Bitcoin, which is why, you know, I think we saw the ETFs come into play.
We'll see other related products come into the market that are allowing banks to offer access to Bitcoin, even if it's not direct.
Yeah. And you mentioned the ETFs.
I think, you know, for TradFi, that's another thing that kind of, you know, adds some validity towards Bitcoin, the asset.
Morgan Stanley actually just launched a Bitcoin fund as well.
So another big giant players coming into this space.
You know, how have you seen, I guess, the development of this ETF?
You know, because it's been the fastest growing ETF in history.
You know, BlackRock's IBIT has the quickest to what it was like 50 billion assets under
management.
You know, I mean, I think it just it's something that obviously, you know, it seemed like there
was a lot of desire just from the everyday investor and the big time investors just to
get some sort of exposure.
Sure. So how big do you think that ETF launches were back in 25? And do you think that it is going to be, you know, continue to grow here in the next few years?
I do. I think it's an easy way to onboard and get access to Bitcoin for people that are familiar with traditional investing platforms and strategies and tactics.
It's a much easier lever to pull, if you will, to get Bitcoin added into your portfolio with potentially your current financial advisor, or even if you're doing it yourself, is to sort of buy into an ETF.
And I think that's great.
I think it's increasing the amount of awareness.
It's increasing the amount of understanding of Bitcoin in terms of the role it could play in somebody's portfolio,
as well as helping them understand the volatility, the pros and the cons of the asset class through the investment in an ETF.
Over time, I think it's important people understand and ask questions about the fees that are related to the ETFs
and what the trade-offs might be between sort of owning it yourself
or sort of owning it through an ETF.
And I think that will start to drive people to consider other options for ownership
and what that might open up to them.
But overall, I think the ETFs are a great distribution channel
for Bitcoin as an ecosystem to drive more interest.
Now I think on the on the con side and thing that you know you we want to be sort of wary of is just over concentration in terms of ownership But I don think we at that level where that level of influence that level of control
puts the ecosystem at risk. And so I view it in the near term, definitely as a positive in terms
of help getting more exposure, more awareness, and more participation into the asset class as a whole.
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trusted, proven. Yeah. And you said something interesting about the concentration potentially
risks, right? I mean, you were just in Mina. There was obviously Michael Saylor there,
who's got over 670,000 Bitcoin, I believe, on MicroStrategy's balance sheet now.
And he was spotted with a lot of the sovereign wealth funds out there.
And it seems like that's kind of the next wave here coming in.
Obviously, they're not holding maybe Bitcoin, the asset as a whole,
just holding their own keys.
Maybe they're holding it through somebody like a BlackRock.
So do you see that as, I guess, as the potential risk
where these sovereign wealth funds will come in and they're just buying the ETF?
Or, yeah, how do you see that, I guess, as your travels and you interacting with a lot of people over in MENA,
how did you see that playing out and how they view Bitcoin as the asset?
Well, again, I think that's a continuation of some of the themes we've already been talking about,
is that as Bitcoin is maturing and people are changing how they view it as an asset class,
not only where it is today in terms of the risk and reward trade-offs, but how they're seeing it longer term,
more capital is being attracted to it, right?
I think we're seeing a lot of volatility come out.
We're seeing people view a lot of the risk come out or at least get moderated with sort of the level of return
and the sort of optimism for what the potential it has as an asset class.
And that's attracting sovereign wealth and other sort of institutions and players that have large amounts of capital, right?
Because they are always trying to put their capital to work.
And they want their capital to be accretive in terms of what it's generating from an income perspective.
They want it to be appreciating and they want it to be a hedge against future scenarios that may play out.
And I think, you know, from a sovereign wealth fund and some of the conversations I was part of, they're looking at their overall portfolio and starting to say, where should our capital be sitting?
What should it be backing? And how does it better prepare us for the next 10 years, 20 years, next 50 years in terms of continuing to grow the overall value of their portfolio?
Yeah. And it seems like, I mean, obviously, it was the best performing assets for the past 15 years, but it had a down year this past year. Did it seem like there was any negative sentiment around Bitcoin, even though it didn't have maybe the 25 that people expected, I guess, as far as price action goes?
Yeah, I mean, I would agree.
As we were talking earlier, I mean, despite the price action,
I look at 2025 as being this really pivotal and positive year for Bitcoin as a whole
in terms of the level of interest, the level of involvement,
the number of what I would view as positive changes,
whether it's regulatory and or just more participation in the market.
I mean, we're still so early in the evolution of Bitcoin as a technology
Bitcoin as an asset class and the ecosystem around it, that we're going to have some volatility.
We're going to have some down years. But I think overall, my view is that the sentiment in Bitcoin
is continuing to increase and improve about the potential role that it is playing and can play.
And I tell you, the one thing that strikes me and it really struck me as I traveled. So I went
around. I spoke with Bitcoiners in Hong Kong and Asia Pacific. I spent time in Europe. I spent time
in Mania and then a lot of time traveling around in the US talking to people about what are the
challenges that they're facing. And hands down, whether they were with a business or they were
from an individual perspective, people are concerned about inflation. They're concerned
about sort of the debasement of different fiat currencies, whichever they are in their markets.
And they're worried about macroeconomic sort of trends going forward and access to assets
that will help them build their wealth over a longer period of time. And, you know, we were
talking a little bit earlier about sort of the average age of first time home buyership, you know,
for my generation, sort of as sort of Gen X, it is home ownership was the gold standard for how you
learn financial literacy, how you started to build wealth, and really started accumulating some,
some assets that would allow you to have a path to retirement, to have a path to sort of leveraging
those assets to do make other investments and achieve other goals in your life. But I think
for Gen Z and for generations around the globe, that that is no longer the case, that they're
having to find alternatives. And Bitcoin is a great alternative for people to be considering
about how they can buy into it in small chunks to not only increase the value of assets that
they're holding, but also really start to shift from what I refer to as labor-based income to
asset-based income. And this has been the real trick that the wealthy, the ultra wealthy have
done for centuries, right? They have accumulated, they have as quickly as they could, they've
accumulated income into assets, converted income into assets, and then started to live off the
appreciation, off of the dividends, off the income that the assets produce, as well as being able to
borrow against it and be very tax efficient. And I think a lot of people now are cluing in
and starting to have curiosity because they can't get into traditional real estate and housing
markets about how do they get into other asset classes and starting to discover more about the
tools and the strategies that now are available to them because of the development of Bitcoin and
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show. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned something that's always been a hot topic, you know, I mean,
of retirement, right? I mean, I think at a certain point, you I think, you know, not only is it the
homeownership, I think at the average age now for the US is 40 for the first time homebuyer. So like,
yeah, I know you were saying is like 35, like kind of globally, I think the US is ticking up to
to the 40s, which obviously is a very alarming sign. And you know, when you look around the
ecosystem, there's the common phrases now like dinks, like dual income, no kids. And it just
seems like that's kind of the way the society is going, unfortunately. But I do think that, you
know, the when you get to the younger generations, I think you think they look at how the Bitcoin
price is doing to kind of get a gauge on the economy and also look at it as a potential
retirement. So do you think that that's going to be, I guess, almost the shift here where it's
essentially not? All right, I need to start dumping into the 401k. It's it's how much
Bitcoin I need to retire. It is definitely a conversation that is happening more and more.
it's and I and I think it's happening. What's encouraging from my perspective is that I feel
like the how do I retire on Bitcoin? How much do I need? What what is that sort of what does the
model look like is happening more and more? And I think that's really encouraging because I feel
like there is a level of ownership that people are taking in terms of trying to understand more
about their own financial future, taking sort of more responsibility for learning about the
strategies and the tactics to do it. But I definitely would agree that Bitcoin as an asset
class is definitely now in more conversations about, hey, how do I start to save and where do
I put my savings to start to prepare myself for a future, whether it's a future where I need to
strategically borrow against my assets to fund putting a down payment on a house or to fund
paying for college tuition or to fund for other investment decisions that we make pre-retirement
while not giving up the long-term exposure to an asset that can potentially help, if not fully fund,
a retirement 20, 30 years down the road. Yeah. And I think that that's the unique thing with,
I guess as Bitcoin, especially with it being such a scarce asset.
And we kind of talked a little bit about the collateral aspect of it too,
but we got a little bit away from the banks.
I want to revisit that here for a second because I think it ties into the way that
these retirement conversations around Bitcoin come up.
Because obviously we've got the 21 million Bitcoin.
Everybody listening probably understands that.
But I think when you really break it down of how scarce the asset is, there hasn't really been another scarce asset like Bitcoin in history.
I mean, if you look at gold, you know, there's it's seemingly like even though gold had a great year last year, it's seemingly like everybody around.
There's always some sort of conversation about, oh, we can mine gold off of asteroids like Elon or the Winklevoss twins have said to people.
You have different countries finding unmined gold.
Do you think the, I guess, just the mental shift and understanding how scarce Bitcoin is,
has that turned into, I guess, a bigger conversation where they understand like,
hey, the scarcity of Bitcoin is actually better than utilizing just debt instruments
and just the scarcity aspect of Bitcoin, just how powerful that is?
Yeah, I mean, I do think people are starting to better understand and appreciate sort of the, you know, how hard and how pristine Bitcoin is compared to other assets.
Now, I think that in 2026, I actually expect that conversation to become more mainstream and hopefully more talked about to help educate a wider number of people about why Bitcoin, you know, why people believe in Bitcoin to the extent that they do and why it is an asset class that is worth consideration from an ownership and investment perspective.
Right. I mean, we and one of the sort of fun slogans that we've come up with and we talk to people about is zero is the wrong number.
Like when you are thinking about Bitcoin ownership, you know, everybody's going to have their own preferences about how they're going to split up their portfolio.
But I can tell you zero is the wrong number. Right.
It is going to be an asset that should be in people's portfolios to help build wealth, help to provide some resiliency and some flexibility for liquidity going forward.
And whether you end up borrowing against it, whether you allow for a third party to have custody or you self-custody, having it and figuring out how to have it as part of your investment strategy, I think it's an important consideration for people to think through and make their own decision about how it fits in and why it fits in.
Yeah, 100%. And I think when we're, I guess, going a step farther from this, I think it's really interesting the development of all these different markets that we're starting to see. You mentioned it earlier, you were in MENA.
Saylor has been coming up and trying to peek into that $300 trillion global bond market,
the $145 trillion fixed income market.
And then he brought up in MENA the $200 trillion credit market.
And obviously, those aren't small numbers when we're talking about all this, right?
That's like nearly $650 trillion worth of markets at this point.
And if Bitcoin just gets a small percentage of that, it would be massive as just under
a $2 trillion asset as we're here recording today.
So I guess how do you see this aspect starting to develop Because it not only the collateral now it seems like Bitcoin is starting to swallow up all these different markets Yeah I mean I was in Mania for Sailor Talk
and I think it's a really encouraging framework and sort of perspective
that he is sharing with everybody in terms of the market as a whole.
So if we look at, I think, what strategy is doing now,
especially with some of their new offerings to the market, right?
They are using Bitcoin as a pristine, hard asset class to really sort of drive value.
Now, if you want exposure to Bitcoin, right, you have the choice, hey, I want to buy it.
I want to own it myself.
And if you do that, then you have the full potential of all of the upside over sort of the next year, five years, 10 years, whatever your time horizon is.
But you also have the risk of the volatility.
And I think what's innovative and what strategy is doing is they're basically creating fixed income products that is taking out a lot of the volatility and providing a much more stable income on an annualized or even monthly basis in terms of the dividends they're paying out.
And I feel like that becomes a real win-win from an income perspective as it relates to digital credit, because you're now giving additional ways to access the value, the appreciation, the exposure to Bitcoin through more traditional fixed income type products.
And I think the other half of the digital credit sort of equation then is actually liquidity.
So I think it's positive that Bitcoin is being used to drive income, being used as a structured sort of asset and product to allow people to get some exposure without some of the volatility.
And the same thing is starting to happen on the liquidity side.
So a lot of the work that we've been doing at SALT and I see in the markets as a whole are one, how do we make it easier for people to leverage their Bitcoin for liquidity, for cash, so that they can make additional investments, they can make purchases, they can live their life the way they want to live it and not feel like they can't do anything until they retire or even have to be forced sellers for the liquidity.
The other big move that I think is happening in the market is that because of all the additional interest and capital that's coming into the Bitcoin market as a whole, I do expect we will see prices come down and we will see more options for borrowing or borrowing products to access liquidity, whether it's different custody models, it's lower rates, it's different terms.
But that additional interest, that additional capital that is coming to market, I think is going to be really interesting and beneficial for the customers, whether you're an individual or your business as we go forward.
And then the third area that I think is really exciting, and at Salt, we've been working on it for a long time, given how many cycles we've navigated throughout the history, and that is starting to eliminate downside protection.
So just as strategy is doing on eliminating volatility and downside on the income side, we're doing the same thing on the liquidity side.
So we have a stabilization product that allows people to convert into stablecoin during periods of high volatility.
We came out earlier in 2025 with Salt Shield, which takes away all volatility and potential liquidation events.
And I think the market as a whole is going to continue to figure out how we protect owners of Bitcoin who want liquidity by leveraging their Bitcoin so that your Bitcoin stays your Bitcoin.
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All right, enough from me. Let's get back to the show.
Yeah, and I think the pristine collateral of Bitcoin, you know, that it's been kind of coined, I think it just makes sense.
And I think that that's going to, I guess, continue to develop.
So, you know, I guess with Saylor kind of coming in and I guess the strategy playbook, so to speak, of tapping into all of these markets, I guess, you know, let's power rank in a sense, like where you think the biggest shifts from TradFi kind of coming in here in 2026 is, I guess, coming over.
because we've talked about the banks coming in where Saylor himself has come out and said,
that's going to be, you know, one of the biggest things that he foresees this year.
You know, we've talked about the sovereign nation, our sovereign wealth funds start to come in.
And then we've talked about, you know, you know, kind of the retail investor or the big time
investors who are looking for maybe something like a dividend or something to protect the downside
risk. Which of those three do you think is, you know, if we had a power rank of one to three,
which do you think is going to be the biggest development and kind of the biggest orange
pillar, so to speak, that'll bring people in here in this next year? I think it's going to be the
management of the risk and helping people understand that. Because I think I believe
the biggest sort of orange pill sort of lever there is, is the predictability of the appreciation
of the asset. And I think what's going to happen is as strategy is doing, as Salt and other
players in the market are doing, they're creating products that are allowing, you know, there to be
a sharing of the risk and a sharing of the upside. And one party is taking more potentially of the
risk like MicroStrategy is doing on the downside, but capping the upside for somebody that is buying
that product. And I think that's going to draw more people in because they can, they want the
exposure, you know, the 10 or 11% dividend that strategy is playing out on some of their fixed
income products is super attractive compared to savings rates to compared to other traditional
fixed on the assets. And so that I think is going to bring people in as they see those products
perform. And as new products get brought into the market that help take manage that risk in a way
that's understandable for TradFi markets,
we'll see more adoption, more curiosity,
and more people trying to figure out
how to participate in a way that fits
their own risk preferences and profiles.
Why would you ever hold generational wealth
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with CryptoSteel. All right, enough from me. Back to the show. Yeah, I think it's really interesting
because I don't know how closely you're following maybe some of these other, I guess, like places
like Robinhood or something like that. But I've got a Robinhood account that I used to use now.
I don't use it too often anymore, but I just got an email that they're raising there. If you hold
cash on Robinhood, they're giving you like four, four and a half percent or something like that.
So I think it's just going to be something where people are going to figure out the strategies that
strategy is using and just see this as almost as a savings account. So I think it's going to be
yeah, like really unique. And seeing that, I mean, that's honestly what I'm kind of starting
to think about is, you know, how much can I just allocate to, you know, one of these fixed income
products that Sailor is offering? And, you know, how can that, you know, just, I guess,
weather some of the storms of the volatility of Bitcoin, which, you know, obviously, we had a down
year within this past year, but their ability to continue to raise money, and, you know, now they're
having some of that cash on hand in order to, I guess, weather some of these storms, I think is
really interesting. But, you know, we, we talked a little bit about 26. I want you to project forward,
like, what do you think is some of the bigger things that you'll, you'll see this year? Because
I know we talked, you know, about the banks, we talked about the sovereign wealth funds and people
starting to live on it. But do you think do you have any like crazy predictions, I guess that you
don't think too many people are talking about that you see just from your travels around the world
that could be potentially something that somebody looks back at the end of 26 like wow i couldn't
believe that happened well i think you touched on the first so for the first one i would say
macro pressures are going to keep optionality as being more valuable than prediction on sort of the
price appreciation i think we're seeing the market mature i think your comment that you just made
about people wanting to figure out how to weather the storms and manage that volatility
will continue to be on the forefront, especially as more capital comes into the market.
And so I think we'll see an expansion of products, an expansion of services, and an expansion
of participation.
But with people thinking about how do I gain optionality in terms of my assets, right?
I don't want to lose them.
I don't want to sell them.
And I'm more concerned and I value that optionality more than I do pure appreciation or sort of speculation on the price.
the second thing i would say is i do think there is a potential risk that the maturity gap widens
and that operational fluency is going to be more important than sort of cycle obsession that we're
you know getting out of a cycle mindset starting to really understand how bitcoin works how
strategically you can use the different products to manage risk based on your own profiles i think
that's going to be really important. And for those that don't lean in and learn about Bitcoin,
learn about the tools, learn about the ecosystem, we'll be at a disadvantage to those that are
willing to consider Bitcoin as a valuable asset class, as an asset class that has earned its spot
alongside the other sort of top five asset classes globally. And if they don't do that,
I think they'll be left behind. The third prediction I would say for 2026 is that public
market activity will ramp up, that the interest in Bitcoin, the capital that is coming to the
digital asset sort of economy is going to accelerate in 2026. I think we had figure went
public in 2025. We had sort of 21 Capital had their offering before the close of the year.
Obviously, strategy has done a lot of a bunch. You know, we are going to see, you know, think that we'll see more and more activity that will bring capital into the markets. We'll see sort of more companies raising capital to continue to build the foundations that will be needed to expand globally and to expand over the next decade to support Bitcoin as a growing asset class sort of overall.
The other prediction, especially in terms of, you know, that I see happening is that treasury companies are going to start gobbling up operating companies to add revenue generation onto, you know, into their ecosystem, onto their balance sheet.
and that it will become harder for companies just to be treasury companies in and of themselves
without sort of some revenue generation.
And so I think that will be a little bit of a consolidation within the market
as well as all these other elements that are taking place.
Yeah, that's interesting because I mean, I kind of think the same thing with the treasury companies
because we saw, I think when Trump got elected, there was about 64 publicly traded companies
that had Bitcoin on the balance sheet.
And then I think we ended the year at like 210.
So obviously that was a huge explosion in all of that.
And that seemed to be the wave all of 25.
It was not only using Bitcoin as collateral, it was the treasury play.
So let's dive into that a little bit more.
Do you think it's going to be, I guess, like companies more building Bitcoin-based products?
Or do you think it's just going to be these treasury companies kind of getting into everyday life where it's,
you know, hey, maybe like an Apple, so to speak, where it's not necessarily a Bitcoin company,
but it's like a tech-focused company. And I'm not saying Apple is going to hold Bitcoin on the
balance sheet. I don't, maybe if you think they are, I don't know. But, you know, that's kind of
the example that just came to the mind is, you know, a company that's maybe not fully associated
with Bitcoin starting to hold Bitcoin on the balance sheet. Yeah, so I think there's going to
I think there's two things that I expect to see happen in 2026 regarding Bitcoin on the balance sheet.
For pure Bitcoin treasury companies, as we know of them in terms of MetaPlanet and Strategy and Nakamoto and others,
they will start gobbling up operating companies and I think start to go down a little bit what Michael Saylor was talking about
in terms of a sort of a full digital bank
powered by Bitcoin,
where they going to buy different sort of functionality by businesses that have different products that are working within the Bitcoin ecosystem that can take advantage of having sort of a large balance
sheet of Bitcoin, but also generate revenues that can be there to both pay out dividends and buy
more Bitcoin. So I think there will be activities that will happen in that. And I think there's
still a lot to play for. Like, I think we'll see treasury companies in every sort of, you know,
market where there is sort of a stock market, where sort of assets can be traded to sort of
have something that appeals to those regional and those local economies. I think the other big class
are going to be the companies, to your point, that are not necessarily Bitcoin native, but they're
looking at accumulating Bitcoin on their balance sheet to help build the value of the company as a
whole. It's actually one of the areas that I'm really excited about because I think small and
medium-sized businesses starting to convert revenue into Bitcoin and having a more proactive
treasury management strategy is really good for the resiliency and the longevity of those businesses.
Small and medium-sized businesses traditionally have struggled to stay alive during market volatility, during down cycles, because it's hard to access credit through traditional markets, through regional banks. It's expensive. You have to go through, you know, sort of oftentimes cumbersome, underwriting procedures, and even potentially put ownership of your own personal assets at, you know, up for grabs in those scenarios.
And I think businesses that start to convert 1, 2, 3, 5% of monthly revenues, weekly revenues into Bitcoin, all of a sudden build an asset that if they need to tap into it easily and quickly, they can for operational expenses to bridge a couple months because of a downturn.
And or if there's an opportunity to make an additional investment to grow the business, they can access that quickly and they can move fast.
And so I think there's a lot of strategic reasons that more small and medium sized businesses will start to strategically look at how do I get, I mean, even just 50 to $100,000 worth of Bitcoin on their balance sheet to provide them flexibility in a way that today they don't have if they don't have much cash and if they're having to look to traditional credit markets for liquidity.
Yeah, I think 100%. I think that it essentially just revolutionizes the business market, so to speak. So continuing on for that, the treasury companies were very big here in 26. But do you think there were some, I guess, obviously there was some companies that ended up needing to sell.
you touched on it, I guess, a little bit earlier that the sentiment was still very strong on Bitcoin
in 25. But we didn't dive into a lot of the bullish things that you saw in 25 outside of
just kind of the developments and kind of the just general adoption. What were some of the big
things that you saw that really pointed out to say, hey, 2025 was a really pivotal year in Bitcoin.
And, you know, I think looking back, we're going to see a lot of people looking at this as like, hey, this this year really changed a lot.
So, I mean, outside of some of the things that we've already talked about, you know, first of all, going to events, starting with sort of Bitcoin Las Vegas back in May, where, you know, I think there was forget the number, but it was close to 40,000 people that were at Bitcoin Las Vegas in terms of an event.
Right. So right out of the gate, there was this level of enthusiasm, a level of incitement and a level of participation that as an industry we have not seen before.
So that was exciting. I then went to Hong Kong and Hong Kong had over 20,000 people come to the conference there in terms of interest.
And it was unbelievable to see the diversity of people that were interested in Bitcoin.
I mean, I talked to people that were from Singapore, from mainland China, that were from Hong Kong, from Vietnam, from Korea, from Malaysia, and they'd flown in from New Zealand and Australia.
I mean, the level of interest was unbelievable.
And then walking the floor and talking with the companies that were building the tools to allow people to custody Bitcoin, to access the economy in terms of offer it as a means of exchange.
I mean, the level of innovation that's happening now globally on the back of the sort of core technology of Bitcoin, I think, is super exciting.
And that only continued in terms of when I went to Europe and sort of the conference in Amsterdam.
Amsterdam was entering much more of a corporate focus in Amsterdam than it was an individual in retail.
And so Europe seems to be evolving at a little bit of a different pace and in a different sequence.
than the additional markets. But to then close the year out with Mania, I think was super exciting.
That was another big show, another show where I would say it's very balanced in terms of both
individual and corporate interest, as well as all the other capital sort of access and interest and
investment that's coming into the market as a whole. I mean, for people that haven't visited
Dubai and Abu Dhabi. It is a fascinating place to go for a lot of reasons. But even if you're a
Bitcoin or even more so, I mean, what you can do with Bitcoin over there, I was having a conversation
with a friend. Now, I don't say I would do this, but he can use Bitcoin to pay for his dentist.
I mean, the amount that Bitcoin is baked into the ecosystem over there is unbelievable. And
there's a mindset for understanding Bitcoin as an ecosystem, Bitcoin as an asset class in Mania
in that region, which I think is really exciting, right? They're looking at it as, you know, how do
we put our money to work? How do we think about sort of assets on a longer term basis? And how do
we accumulate assets that will help fund our life without having to sell the assets? And so there's
I think there's just a great mindset.
And I feel that we will look at both 2025 being a critical year, pivotal year, transition
year for Bitcoin.
But also I expect to see Manea playing a larger role globally in sort of just really showing
how things can change and will change.
Given how Manea really ends up being a bridge between Europe and Asia Pacific, it's easier
to get to or easier to get to from sort of the Americas as well.
It just, I think it's going to be a really hot spot for a lot of innovative activity.
Yeah, that's really interesting.
How do you think, I guess, Mania is starting to play into the game theory of just, you know,
sovereign nations?
And, you know, I mean, I guess obviously we've seen, you know, Dubai become like a hot spot
just for wealthy individuals because of the incentives that they're giving them.
So how do you see, I guess, just that area and, you know, I guess Bitcoin playing into the game theory of, you know, essentially Bitcoin becoming a Bitcoin standard, I guess, down the line?
Yeah, one thing to sort of remember, especially about UAE, is that the majority of the people there are people that have chosen to move there for different reasons, different incentives.
But there is a culture that is very digital currency, digital asset fluent.
It's a culture that is proactively thinking about building value for the long term and what those tools and strategies are.
And from sort of a sovereign wealth perspective, right, there's a lot of cash and capital that is in the market that is looking for places to be productive.
And so I think Mania will hold a lot of signals for us in terms of at a retail level, at a sort of means of exchange level.
How are people using it? What do people want to use it for?
But also planning for the long term, creating generational wealth.
how are they looking at Bitcoin as being a part of their overall portfolio,
then I think you're going to be key signals for, you know, for everybody globally.
Yeah. And I think, you know, once we start to get, I guess, some of these big players start to buy
Bitcoin or at least announce it, because I'm curious, was there any revelings? Like, I mean,
I know Trump has, Eric Trump has come out and said on stage that, you know, there are countries
and stuff like that, buying Bitcoin, and they're saying all this, you know, kind of behind closed
doors. Was there, I guess, that general sense there in Mania that this is going on and, you know,
people are, you know, just maybe not talking about it just yet?
No, I think so. I would agree. I mean, there were a lot of conversations and meetings that
were taking place. You could see people meeting with Saylor, meeting with other people that were
their, you know, representatives from the UAE, from different businesses, families, etc.
I think we will see more activity in that space as whether it's investment in Bitcoin,
whether it's investment in the companies that are going to drive the ecosystem or a combination.
Then, but there's a lot there.
I would view it as an increased level of interest about truly participating in the ecosystem as a whole.
Yeah, and I think that that'll continue here in 26 because, I mean, I think at the end of the day, you know, when we're seeing all these different markets, you know, you're lining out here, 26, reducing the volatility, kind of getting that exposure to, yeah, I guess Bitcoin without the risks.
I think that we're going to start to see this really play out.
But I think we mentioned it a little bit last time when we spoke,
but I know you're writing a book and you co-authored a book here.
Why don't you tell people a little bit about that?
And I guess how that journey, because I know you're talking to a lot of people,
how they're using Bitcoin, how that journey is going.
And I mean, I know you touched on a little bit in Dubai and in Hong Kong,
but what about in the United States?
I'm curious, you know, obviously there was Vegas, but, you know, how do you see the development and kind of some of the conversations you see people living on a Bitcoin standard here in the U.S. right now?
Yeah, so Sean Owen and I, Sean Owen is the founder and CEO of Salt. We're writing a book called The Bitcoin Advantage to really, really help educate and inform people about why, you know, why we think Bitcoin is an exciting and valuable asset class.
And so within the book, we really start to explore some of the history, some of the background of the evolution of Bitcoin,
but also really start to look into why does Bitcoin start to make sense as an individual, as a company, as a nation, to have it as a reserve asset?
And what does that allow you to do?
And how does that help people think about their financial strategies, either individually or at a corporate level?
And it's been just really exciting to go around and talk to people and understand more about the diversity of frustrations,
of challenges they're looking to solve and what the current markets and economic trends are really forcing people into to considering.
And part of the Bitcoin advantage, a real element around it is helping with sort of the financial literacy challenge.
Because I think as I go around and I talk to people, you know, especially in the U.S., I feel like in the U.S.
And I, you know, I teach at the University of Colorado.
And so I have a perspective on sort of what's going on from a college education perspective.
But there are still major gaps in terms of us helping give individuals the tools, the knowledge that they need to be proactive, to be sort of autonomous and really take ownership of planning their own financial future.
And so we hope this book can play a small role in doing that, hope sort of educate people on what questions they should be asking about Bitcoin and what the potential opportunities, if they invest the time and effort to learn more about the asset class and all the tools and capabilities that surround it.
yeah i definitely think that that you know i'm curious like with the college kids i'm sure that
they're they're like more bitcoin friendly than maybe uh you know uh the generations prior to them
um you know now obviously it's become more mainstream um i mean i know i've gone to a
couple of the colleges here in tampa and you know all over the the u.s and they're having like clubs
that are just talking all about this so it is kind of interesting to see the development but yeah i
I think there is still a big education gap.
And I commend you for trying to help with that
because I think that there is the financial literacy.
You can't just essentially put your money in the bank anymore.
And I think Bitcoin's a huge reason for us
to potentially flip retirement savings,
all that on its head.
But Hunter, you've been very generous with your time.
You always bring a wealth of knowledge.
So I really appreciate our conversations.
Why don't you tell people more
about where they can find out about you
and what you guys got going on in Salt
and the Bitcoin Advantage.
Yeah, I would be happy to.
So you can find more about me.
I'm so easily found on X and LinkedIn
from sort of a social media perspective.
If you want to learn more, go to saltlending.com.
We have a range of resources
to help with the financial education
and for you to understand more about Bitcoin
as well as understand more about if you own it,
how you might leverage it responsibly.
Awesome.
And I'll put all that in the show notes.
So Hunter, thanks so much.
It's been a pleasure, Brandon.
Thank you guys all for tuning in to another great episode of the State of Bitcoin podcast.
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