1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,820 Banks are moving because they're reacting to incentives that they can't ignore any longer. 2 00:00:07,020 --> 00:00:09,860 And I think they're intimidated and afraid of where. 3 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:15,980 So some of it is incentive, some of it's self-preservation, 4 00:00:16,300 --> 00:00:20,400 and also some of it's getting into the game so they can influence some control. 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,980 BlackRock, some of the biggest money managers now, it seems like Bitcoin isn't going away. 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:41,420 bing bong i am back with another edition of the state of bitcoin podcast where i've got the man 7 00:00:41,420 --> 00:00:47,280 the myth the legend hunter albright now recurring guest on the state of bitcoin podcast but hunter 8 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:53,780 we've seen a huge revolution that i think started kind of heating up last year where you've kind of 9 00:00:53,780 --> 00:00:59,180 coined it as the buy borrow die i want to dive into that because it seems like within the year 10 00:00:59,180 --> 00:01:06,320 2025 and now as we're transitioning here early 26 it seems that revolution of bitcoin becoming the 11 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:11,460 apex predator of all the other collateral assets kind of coming in and swooping in 12 00:01:11,460 --> 00:01:17,860 is taking over how have you seen this develop over this past you know 12 to 18 months and 13 00:01:17,860 --> 00:01:22,640 how do you see it projecting here into the future yeah first of all brandon great to be back 14 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:28,140 always a pleasure to join you and talk about the state of bitcoin i think one of the things that 15 00:01:28,140 --> 00:01:33,500 I'm really excited about it, despite where we ended the year, sort of from a sort of overall 16 00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:39,460 perspective with the price being down at the end of the year, really think 2025, we're going to look 17 00:01:39,460 --> 00:01:45,960 back on 2025 as being a really pivotal and transitional year for Bitcoin. I think there 18 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:51,680 were a lot of big shifts that happened. We saw the ETFs and institutional capital come in at the 19 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:58,000 beginning of the year. We saw a lot of regulatory changes. As I was traveling globally, talking to 20 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:05,080 people about Bitcoin, one of the other key trends that I noticed is that globally, the age of 21 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:12,500 ownership, first time ownership of a home is increasing. It's above 35 globally and even above 22 00:02:12,500 --> 00:02:18,660 40 in a lot of markets. And so this access to long term assets, this access to assets that 23 00:02:18,660 --> 00:02:24,900 appreciate over a longer period of time and really help people buy well or build wealth is changing. 24 00:02:24,900 --> 00:02:34,280 And I think more and more people, especially within Gen Z, are looking at how can Bitcoin replace home ownership as a way to build wealth. 25 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:53,940 And I think that's been driving what we've been seeing people talking about buy, borrow, die, really thinking about how do you start to accumulate Bitcoin, hold on to it, leverage it as an asset, both for the long term appreciation, but also for the liquidity that it can provide you just to live your life or build a business. 26 00:02:53,940 --> 00:03:00,600 Whatever your goals are, there's a way for Bitcoin to help facilitate the achievement of those goals. 27 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,620 Yeah, and it seems like that's been kind of the movement here, right? 28 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,340 Where a lot of people are seeing just the availability of that. 29 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:14,480 I mean, we had Trump tweet out news about the Strategic Reserve late on a Sunday night when markets are closed. 30 00:03:14,620 --> 00:03:18,060 So I think that was just kind of an eye-opener to a lot of TradFi. 31 00:03:18,060 --> 00:03:29,900 And then now we've kind of seen banks start to turn around and be a little bit more friendly, I guess, let's say, towards Bitcoin and try to embrace it, get some of these products. 32 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:45,040 How have you seen, I guess, the banking industry as somebody who's kind of worked in that area and maybe a little adjacent to there as, I guess, being more friendly towards the Bitcoin space as it's developed throughout 25? 33 00:03:45,040 --> 00:04:09,180 Yeah, I mean, I think this really speaks to the commitment to the interest and the enthusiasm around Bitcoin more broadly. And I think the community as a whole has done a great job advocating for it. Because what I would say is like banks are not just now discovering Bitcoin, right? They have known about it. They haven't moved for a lot of reasons, policies, conservative nature of the banks. 34 00:04:09,180 --> 00:04:19,540 But things are now starting to shift where banks are moving because they're reacting to incentives that they can't ignore any longer, that they want to get into the game. 35 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,720 In fact, they're afraid if they don't get into the game, they're going to miss out. 36 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:40,120 So some of it is incentive, some of it's self-preservation, and also some of it's getting into the game so they can influence some control and some direction into how things start to evolve within sort of the Bitcoin economy as a whole. 37 00:04:40,120 --> 00:05:04,660 So I think it's very encouraging that banks are wanting to get in. It's also threatening in terms of both the competition, but where might they want to take Bitcoin as an asset? And how might they try to influence some of the direction, whether that's through regulation, whether that's through product offerings? But I think it is drawing a lot more attention from the traditional banking system. 38 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,440 Yeah, let's dive into that a little bit more. 39 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,380 So what do you mean by, I guess, how do you frame that? 40 00:05:11,660 --> 00:05:13,680 Like which directions banks want to take it? 41 00:05:13,700 --> 00:05:15,600 Because obviously they've got big bags, right? 42 00:05:15,620 --> 00:05:19,000 There's a lot of big money now, obviously, starting to get into Bitcoin. 43 00:05:19,140 --> 00:05:21,280 And maybe we'll get into that here in a little bit later. 44 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:32,140 But, you know, banks obviously have a lot of influence, you know, whether you believe the MSCI kind of collusion against micro strategy or not. 45 00:05:32,300 --> 00:05:34,140 I mean, they had some of that ruling here today. 46 00:05:34,660 --> 00:05:43,840 But anyway, these banks have a lot of influence when it comes to just traditional capital markets and, you know, what they can offer to their clients. 47 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:49,520 So, you know, I'm kind of curious, like, where do you see, I guess, the bank's biggest influence? 48 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,160 And what are some things that, you know, maybe worry you to a sense? 49 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:57,140 And then also you think that are positives of the banking industry coming in? 50 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,700 Well, so I think, first of all, the banks are going to move because their goal is to make money, right? 51 00:06:02,700 --> 00:06:08,460 both for the sort of operators of the banks as well as then the shareholders of the bank. 52 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,080 And so they're moving because of incentives. 53 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:18,300 And I think they're intimidated and afraid of where sort of the independence, the self-sovereignty, 54 00:06:19,140 --> 00:06:22,980 sort of the decentralized nature of Bitcoin potentially could go. 55 00:06:23,060 --> 00:06:28,220 And they're trying to get involved and understand how they can play a role in that 56 00:06:28,220 --> 00:06:31,780 and defend a lot of the existing business that they have. 57 00:06:31,780 --> 00:06:48,960 And so that's going to continue to be a play both when you think about sort of just the general fiat economy and how much profits and how critical the traditional banking infrastructure is around that and what Bitcoin represents as a way of displacing it. 58 00:06:48,960 --> 00:07:02,500 Now, I am generally more positive in terms of the banks coming in and looking at the banks as really larger distribution channels, larger channels for greater awareness in terms of the asset class as a whole. 59 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:08,400 And also, you know, I tend to be I feel like I'm pretty pragmatic and realistic about that. 60 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,880 We're just not going to make this major leap with large numbers of people. 61 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:26,040 And so we're going to need people to find their own path to Bitcoin through different ways of navigating the TradFi into more of a Bitcoin, living a Bitcoin powered life and a Bitcoin ecosystem. 62 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,860 And in fact, part of that, I think, is stablecoin. 63 00:07:28,980 --> 00:07:34,540 I think it's actually really encouraging to see more banks adopting the use of stablecoins, 64 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,880 allowing sort of for custody of stablecoins, because I think that becomes a really key 65 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:45,100 bridge of helping demystify some of the technical natures of Bitcoin to then sort of allow people 66 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:52,160 to get into the asset class from a usage perspective and understanding a transactional 67 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:58,760 perspective of Bitcoin and how it integrates with other currencies and financial channels. 68 00:07:59,820 --> 00:08:06,200 Yeah. And I think you're phrasing there, I really did like, right? I mean, you said the incentives, 69 00:08:06,580 --> 00:08:12,360 right? I mean, I think at the end of the day, when banks see Bitcoin, they've been, I guess, 70 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:19,300 in a sense, sort of, like you said, kind of intimidated, right? About how Bitcoin can almost 71 00:08:19,300 --> 00:08:24,520 displace them or anything like that. But I think, you know, if I talk to my grandparents or something 72 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:29,900 like that, you know, she's not going to be trying to hold her own private keys or anything. You know, 73 00:08:29,900 --> 00:08:35,020 at least right now, that is maybe something that's a little too intimidating for her. But, you know, 74 00:08:35,020 --> 00:08:41,080 she does trust the bank for better or for worse at this point. So I think, you know, these banking 75 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:48,140 institutions now coming in bring a level of, I guess, let's say validity towards Bitcoin, you know, 76 00:08:48,140 --> 00:08:51,420 especially when we have BlackRock, some of the biggest money managers. 77 00:08:51,680 --> 00:08:55,200 Now, it seems like Bitcoin isn't really going away. 78 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:01,180 But it seems like there is some sort of that, I guess, 79 00:09:01,300 --> 00:09:07,820 the element of the banks coming in and trying to figure out Bitcoin as the asset. 80 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,280 I feel like over time, we'll see the collateral rates 81 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,780 kind of just go down across the board and everything else. 82 00:09:13,780 --> 00:09:17,280 But how do you see this playing out, I guess? 83 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:23,060 because obviously you guys with SALT have some of the collateral aspect of it. 84 00:09:23,220 --> 00:09:25,140 So, I mean, you guys have been ahead of this game. 85 00:09:25,540 --> 00:09:27,000 Now the banks are trying to come in. 86 00:09:27,860 --> 00:09:31,360 Have you had any of those conversations with TradFi banks? 87 00:09:31,620 --> 00:09:34,400 And if not, do you think that they're coming? 88 00:09:34,700 --> 00:09:38,060 And yeah, just see if you could shed a little light on that for us. 89 00:09:38,060 --> 00:09:41,940 Yeah. So one, I think, as I said, 90 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,320 I'm positive in terms of banks showing interest in the market, right? 91 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:56,680 If we look at what many of us believe in terms of the potential value of Bitcoin as an asset class being equal or greater to gold in terms of getting to be 20 trillion plus, right? 92 00:09:56,680 --> 00:10:14,380 There's a lot of growth in there all around in terms of tools and strategies and tactics for people to be able to tap into, whether you're a business or whether you're an individual, to build wealth, to build value and really build financial flexibility as you go forward. 93 00:10:14,380 --> 00:10:29,700 And I think the banks understand that and they know that they need to figure out how to play in that. I think it's also a big indicator. I do believe that it's a signal that just from digital assets as a whole, Bitcoin is going to, in my opinion, Bitcoin is going to lead the way. 94 00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:36,460 and then we'll start to see other tokenized assets and other sort of forms of digital assets 95 00:10:36,460 --> 00:10:41,220 come into play in terms of how people manage them, how people accumulate them, and how people 96 00:10:41,220 --> 00:10:48,260 really start to drive sort of how they manage their own assets and value and wealth over a 97 00:10:48,260 --> 00:10:54,640 longer period of time. Now, I think banks are going to struggle, especially early on. I do think it's 98 00:10:54,640 --> 00:11:01,240 a signal of trust that, and it helps build trust that banks are coming in, that larger institutions 99 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:09,560 are coming in, that the ecosystem is attracting this capital. But I also know, having come from 100 00:11:09,560 --> 00:11:15,380 sort of tradified companies, that there's some real infrastructure that's going to be difficult. 101 00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:20,400 I think one is going to be sort of, our bank's going to be able to talk to Bitcoiners. Our bank's 102 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:26,600 going to be able to interface with the culture appropriately that's going to attract the clients 103 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:32,480 and keep the clients that they want to serve. Secondly, there's risk compliance that is really 104 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:38,300 different than what banks are going to be used to. So how are they going to sort of adapt to 105 00:11:38,300 --> 00:11:43,700 some of the volatility and some of the risk considerations, the custody considerations that 106 00:11:43,700 --> 00:11:50,780 are present today in digital assets in a way that it's not the same in terms of TradFi. 107 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:58,440 And then the third one is like a multi-currency and reporting and sort of analytics within 108 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:04,360 traditional banks, adding Bitcoin into the equation of how you do your accounting, how 109 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:10,520 you do your reporting and how you do your sort of analytics is easier said than done. 110 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:17,400 And there's a lot of complications, especially within legacy systems, that I do believe will take banks a longer time. 111 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:23,140 Now, that doesn't mean they're not going to find ways to get in, whether that's through acquisition, whether it's through partnership. 112 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:35,980 They're going to find a way to start to figure out how to play into it because I think the incentives are there and their customers are starting to ask about Bitcoin, which is why, you know, I think we saw the ETFs come into play. 113 00:12:35,980 --> 00:12:45,640 We'll see other related products come into the market that are allowing banks to offer access to Bitcoin, even if it's not direct. 114 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:47,980 Yeah. And you mentioned the ETFs. 115 00:12:48,660 --> 00:12:55,340 I think, you know, for TradFi, that's another thing that kind of, you know, adds some validity towards Bitcoin, the asset. 116 00:12:55,580 --> 00:12:59,200 Morgan Stanley actually just launched a Bitcoin fund as well. 117 00:12:59,300 --> 00:13:02,360 So another big giant players coming into this space. 118 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:07,760 You know, how have you seen, I guess, the development of this ETF? 119 00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:12,120 You know, because it's been the fastest growing ETF in history. 120 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:19,200 You know, BlackRock's IBIT has the quickest to what it was like 50 billion assets under 121 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:19,660 management. 122 00:13:20,820 --> 00:13:25,340 You know, I mean, I think it just it's something that obviously, you know, it seemed like there 123 00:13:25,340 --> 00:13:29,900 was a lot of desire just from the everyday investor and the big time investors just to 124 00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:31,180 get some sort of exposure. 125 00:13:31,180 --> 00:13:41,900 Sure. So how big do you think that ETF launches were back in 25? And do you think that it is going to be, you know, continue to grow here in the next few years? 126 00:13:41,900 --> 00:13:53,020 I do. I think it's an easy way to onboard and get access to Bitcoin for people that are familiar with traditional investing platforms and strategies and tactics. 127 00:13:53,020 --> 00:14:05,800 It's a much easier lever to pull, if you will, to get Bitcoin added into your portfolio with potentially your current financial advisor, or even if you're doing it yourself, is to sort of buy into an ETF. 128 00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:07,640 And I think that's great. 129 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:09,800 I think it's increasing the amount of awareness. 130 00:14:10,140 --> 00:14:16,440 It's increasing the amount of understanding of Bitcoin in terms of the role it could play in somebody's portfolio, 131 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:26,240 as well as helping them understand the volatility, the pros and the cons of the asset class through the investment in an ETF. 132 00:14:27,060 --> 00:14:33,600 Over time, I think it's important people understand and ask questions about the fees that are related to the ETFs 133 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,120 and what the trade-offs might be between sort of owning it yourself 134 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,040 or sort of owning it through an ETF. 135 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:46,020 And I think that will start to drive people to consider other options for ownership 136 00:14:46,020 --> 00:14:49,500 and what that might open up to them. 137 00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:54,840 But overall, I think the ETFs are a great distribution channel 138 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,880 for Bitcoin as an ecosystem to drive more interest. 139 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:14,112 Now I think on the on the con side and thing that you know you we want to be sort of wary of is just over concentration in terms of ownership But I don think we at that level where that level of influence that level of control 140 00:15:14,112 --> 00:15:20,932 puts the ecosystem at risk. And so I view it in the near term, definitely as a positive in terms 141 00:15:20,932 --> 00:15:27,012 of help getting more exposure, more awareness, and more participation into the asset class as a whole. 142 00:15:27,312 --> 00:15:31,892 What if I told you you never had to sell your Bitcoin? Instead, you can borrow against it, 143 00:15:31,952 --> 00:15:37,252 with SALT lending. Why give up your hard-earned Bitcoin when you can unlock its value without 144 00:15:37,252 --> 00:15:44,192 letting it go? With SALT you get secure Bitcoin collateralized loans with no credit checks, 145 00:15:44,192 --> 00:15:51,772 no prepayment fees, and best of all, no rehypothecation. SALT has had zero customer collateral losses 146 00:15:51,772 --> 00:15:56,952 since it launched. SALT was the first platform to offer Bitcoin collateralized loans starting 147 00:15:56,952 --> 00:16:03,412 way back in 2016. Today, they offer tailored options for both individuals and businesses. 148 00:16:04,032 --> 00:16:10,092 And now introducing Salt Shield, the no liquidation solution. No forced liquidations 149 00:16:10,092 --> 00:16:15,112 during the lifetime of your loan when you're enrolled with Salt Shield. This just launched 150 00:16:15,112 --> 00:16:21,612 at the Bitcoin conference in Las Vegas, and it is next level peace of mind. For green candle 151 00:16:21,612 --> 00:16:28,912 listeners only head to saltlending.com slash green dash candle for this exclusive offer for 152 00:16:28,912 --> 00:16:35,552 your Bitcoin collateralized loan. You can get cash for your Bitcoin today. Salt Lending secure, 153 00:16:35,952 --> 00:16:42,472 trusted, proven. Yeah. And you said something interesting about the concentration potentially 154 00:16:42,472 --> 00:16:47,812 risks, right? I mean, you were just in Mina. There was obviously Michael Saylor there, 155 00:16:47,812 --> 00:16:53,192 who's got over 670,000 Bitcoin, I believe, on MicroStrategy's balance sheet now. 156 00:16:53,632 --> 00:16:56,592 And he was spotted with a lot of the sovereign wealth funds out there. 157 00:16:56,652 --> 00:17:00,272 And it seems like that's kind of the next wave here coming in. 158 00:17:01,172 --> 00:17:06,512 Obviously, they're not holding maybe Bitcoin, the asset as a whole, 159 00:17:06,712 --> 00:17:08,472 just holding their own keys. 160 00:17:08,592 --> 00:17:10,752 Maybe they're holding it through somebody like a BlackRock. 161 00:17:11,152 --> 00:17:15,692 So do you see that as, I guess, as the potential risk 162 00:17:15,692 --> 00:17:19,392 where these sovereign wealth funds will come in and they're just buying the ETF? 163 00:17:19,832 --> 00:17:25,832 Or, yeah, how do you see that, I guess, as your travels and you interacting with a lot of people over in MENA, 164 00:17:25,912 --> 00:17:29,532 how did you see that playing out and how they view Bitcoin as the asset? 165 00:17:30,812 --> 00:17:35,972 Well, again, I think that's a continuation of some of the themes we've already been talking about, 166 00:17:35,972 --> 00:17:42,972 is that as Bitcoin is maturing and people are changing how they view it as an asset class, 167 00:17:42,972 --> 00:17:49,672 not only where it is today in terms of the risk and reward trade-offs, but how they're seeing it longer term, 168 00:17:50,132 --> 00:17:52,452 more capital is being attracted to it, right? 169 00:17:52,492 --> 00:17:54,792 I think we're seeing a lot of volatility come out. 170 00:17:54,892 --> 00:18:01,812 We're seeing people view a lot of the risk come out or at least get moderated with sort of the level of return 171 00:18:01,812 --> 00:18:06,852 and the sort of optimism for what the potential it has as an asset class. 172 00:18:06,852 --> 00:18:17,492 And that's attracting sovereign wealth and other sort of institutions and players that have large amounts of capital, right? 173 00:18:17,512 --> 00:18:21,332 Because they are always trying to put their capital to work. 174 00:18:21,632 --> 00:18:29,452 And they want their capital to be accretive in terms of what it's generating from an income perspective. 175 00:18:29,452 --> 00:18:36,812 They want it to be appreciating and they want it to be a hedge against future scenarios that may play out. 176 00:18:36,852 --> 00:18:47,772 And I think, you know, from a sovereign wealth fund and some of the conversations I was part of, they're looking at their overall portfolio and starting to say, where should our capital be sitting? 177 00:18:47,772 --> 00:19:01,512 What should it be backing? And how does it better prepare us for the next 10 years, 20 years, next 50 years in terms of continuing to grow the overall value of their portfolio? 178 00:19:01,512 --> 00:19:23,452 Yeah. And it seems like, I mean, obviously, it was the best performing assets for the past 15 years, but it had a down year this past year. Did it seem like there was any negative sentiment around Bitcoin, even though it didn't have maybe the 25 that people expected, I guess, as far as price action goes? 179 00:19:24,412 --> 00:19:25,432 Yeah, I mean, I would agree. 180 00:19:25,552 --> 00:19:29,292 As we were talking earlier, I mean, despite the price action, 181 00:19:29,392 --> 00:19:35,112 I look at 2025 as being this really pivotal and positive year for Bitcoin as a whole 182 00:19:35,112 --> 00:19:38,532 in terms of the level of interest, the level of involvement, 183 00:19:38,892 --> 00:19:41,952 the number of what I would view as positive changes, 184 00:19:41,952 --> 00:19:45,992 whether it's regulatory and or just more participation in the market. 185 00:19:47,252 --> 00:19:53,372 I mean, we're still so early in the evolution of Bitcoin as a technology 186 00:19:53,372 --> 00:20:01,012 Bitcoin as an asset class and the ecosystem around it, that we're going to have some volatility. 187 00:20:01,232 --> 00:20:05,852 We're going to have some down years. But I think overall, my view is that the sentiment in Bitcoin 188 00:20:05,852 --> 00:20:12,952 is continuing to increase and improve about the potential role that it is playing and can play. 189 00:20:13,712 --> 00:20:19,952 And I tell you, the one thing that strikes me and it really struck me as I traveled. So I went 190 00:20:19,952 --> 00:20:27,332 around. I spoke with Bitcoiners in Hong Kong and Asia Pacific. I spent time in Europe. I spent time 191 00:20:27,332 --> 00:20:33,672 in Mania and then a lot of time traveling around in the US talking to people about what are the 192 00:20:33,672 --> 00:20:39,432 challenges that they're facing. And hands down, whether they were with a business or they were 193 00:20:39,432 --> 00:20:45,932 from an individual perspective, people are concerned about inflation. They're concerned 194 00:20:45,932 --> 00:20:50,612 about sort of the debasement of different fiat currencies, whichever they are in their markets. 195 00:20:50,612 --> 00:20:58,172 And they're worried about macroeconomic sort of trends going forward and access to assets 196 00:20:58,172 --> 00:21:03,812 that will help them build their wealth over a longer period of time. And, you know, we were 197 00:21:03,812 --> 00:21:08,292 talking a little bit earlier about sort of the average age of first time home buyership, you know, 198 00:21:08,292 --> 00:21:16,472 for my generation, sort of as sort of Gen X, it is home ownership was the gold standard for how you 199 00:21:16,472 --> 00:21:22,812 learn financial literacy, how you started to build wealth, and really started accumulating some, 200 00:21:22,812 --> 00:21:29,572 some assets that would allow you to have a path to retirement, to have a path to sort of leveraging 201 00:21:29,572 --> 00:21:35,412 those assets to do make other investments and achieve other goals in your life. But I think 202 00:21:35,412 --> 00:21:42,112 for Gen Z and for generations around the globe, that that is no longer the case, that they're 203 00:21:42,112 --> 00:21:46,992 having to find alternatives. And Bitcoin is a great alternative for people to be considering 204 00:21:46,992 --> 00:21:53,712 about how they can buy into it in small chunks to not only increase the value of assets that 205 00:21:53,712 --> 00:22:00,352 they're holding, but also really start to shift from what I refer to as labor-based income to 206 00:22:00,352 --> 00:22:05,092 asset-based income. And this has been the real trick that the wealthy, the ultra wealthy have 207 00:22:05,092 --> 00:22:10,212 done for centuries, right? They have accumulated, they have as quickly as they could, they've 208 00:22:10,212 --> 00:22:18,072 accumulated income into assets, converted income into assets, and then started to live off the 209 00:22:18,072 --> 00:22:24,052 appreciation, off of the dividends, off the income that the assets produce, as well as being able to 210 00:22:24,052 --> 00:22:29,672 borrow against it and be very tax efficient. And I think a lot of people now are cluing in 211 00:22:29,672 --> 00:22:35,912 and starting to have curiosity because they can't get into traditional real estate and housing 212 00:22:35,912 --> 00:22:41,792 markets about how do they get into other asset classes and starting to discover more about the 213 00:22:41,792 --> 00:22:47,432 tools and the strategies that now are available to them because of the development of Bitcoin and 214 00:22:47,432 --> 00:22:54,972 the supporting capabilities around it. Last bull run, we had exchanges blow up. You saw FTX, 215 00:22:54,972 --> 00:23:00,932 celsius block fi you name it but the true power of bitcoin is getting it off on exchange into 216 00:23:00,932 --> 00:23:06,912 cold storage this bull run i'm trusting trezor the company that's been around for over a decade 217 00:23:06,912 --> 00:23:14,712 and they just had a brand new release of the best hardware wallet in the game the trezor safe seven 218 00:23:14,712 --> 00:23:22,272 it's got the first audible secure element no other hardware wallet has this on top of it i travel a 219 00:23:22,272 --> 00:23:29,092 lot. So I need an easy way to connect my Bitcoin hardware wallet to my laptop, phone, what have you. 220 00:23:29,532 --> 00:23:35,812 Therefore, it is the easiest way and has the best connectivity to access your Bitcoin. This is truly 221 00:23:35,812 --> 00:23:41,292 how you become your own bank. And the best way to do that is with a Trezor Safe7. So you could go to 222 00:23:41,292 --> 00:23:47,132 the affiliate link down below and get yourself one right now and do it quickly because they are 223 00:23:47,132 --> 00:23:52,872 flying off the shelves, folks. So do it with the easiest and best way to get your Bitcoin 224 00:23:52,872 --> 00:23:59,072 off exchanges. So go to the affiliate link down below, get yourself a Trezor Save 7 and get your 225 00:23:59,072 --> 00:24:04,212 Bitcoin off exchanges in the easiest way possible. All right, enough from me. Let's get back to the 226 00:24:04,212 --> 00:24:10,232 show. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned something that's always been a hot topic, you know, I mean, 227 00:24:10,372 --> 00:24:17,112 of retirement, right? I mean, I think at a certain point, you I think, you know, not only is it the 228 00:24:17,112 --> 00:24:23,212 homeownership, I think at the average age now for the US is 40 for the first time homebuyer. So like, 229 00:24:23,232 --> 00:24:28,152 yeah, I know you were saying is like 35, like kind of globally, I think the US is ticking up to 230 00:24:28,152 --> 00:24:33,092 to the 40s, which obviously is a very alarming sign. And you know, when you look around the 231 00:24:33,092 --> 00:24:39,372 ecosystem, there's the common phrases now like dinks, like dual income, no kids. And it just 232 00:24:39,372 --> 00:24:45,572 seems like that's kind of the way the society is going, unfortunately. But I do think that, you 233 00:24:45,572 --> 00:24:51,592 know, the when you get to the younger generations, I think you think they look at how the Bitcoin 234 00:24:51,592 --> 00:24:56,312 price is doing to kind of get a gauge on the economy and also look at it as a potential 235 00:24:56,312 --> 00:25:02,492 retirement. So do you think that that's going to be, I guess, almost the shift here where it's 236 00:25:02,492 --> 00:25:07,232 essentially not? All right, I need to start dumping into the 401k. It's it's how much 237 00:25:07,232 --> 00:25:12,472 Bitcoin I need to retire. It is definitely a conversation that is happening more and more. 238 00:25:12,472 --> 00:25:19,052 it's and I and I think it's happening. What's encouraging from my perspective is that I feel 239 00:25:19,052 --> 00:25:24,312 like the how do I retire on Bitcoin? How much do I need? What what is that sort of what does the 240 00:25:24,312 --> 00:25:29,612 model look like is happening more and more? And I think that's really encouraging because I feel 241 00:25:29,612 --> 00:25:35,072 like there is a level of ownership that people are taking in terms of trying to understand more 242 00:25:35,072 --> 00:25:41,252 about their own financial future, taking sort of more responsibility for learning about the 243 00:25:41,252 --> 00:25:46,952 strategies and the tactics to do it. But I definitely would agree that Bitcoin as an asset 244 00:25:46,952 --> 00:25:53,792 class is definitely now in more conversations about, hey, how do I start to save and where do 245 00:25:53,792 --> 00:26:00,712 I put my savings to start to prepare myself for a future, whether it's a future where I need to 246 00:26:00,712 --> 00:26:07,612 strategically borrow against my assets to fund putting a down payment on a house or to fund 247 00:26:07,612 --> 00:26:14,412 paying for college tuition or to fund for other investment decisions that we make pre-retirement 248 00:26:14,412 --> 00:26:21,692 while not giving up the long-term exposure to an asset that can potentially help, if not fully fund, 249 00:26:22,412 --> 00:26:29,272 a retirement 20, 30 years down the road. Yeah. And I think that that's the unique thing with, 250 00:26:29,272 --> 00:26:35,152 I guess as Bitcoin, especially with it being such a scarce asset. 251 00:26:36,192 --> 00:26:41,072 And we kind of talked a little bit about the collateral aspect of it too, 252 00:26:41,172 --> 00:26:43,672 but we got a little bit away from the banks. 253 00:26:43,792 --> 00:26:48,872 I want to revisit that here for a second because I think it ties into the way that 254 00:26:48,872 --> 00:26:53,332 these retirement conversations around Bitcoin come up. 255 00:26:53,332 --> 00:26:56,072 Because obviously we've got the 21 million Bitcoin. 256 00:26:56,212 --> 00:26:58,572 Everybody listening probably understands that. 257 00:26:58,572 --> 00:27:08,632 But I think when you really break it down of how scarce the asset is, there hasn't really been another scarce asset like Bitcoin in history. 258 00:27:08,852 --> 00:27:16,992 I mean, if you look at gold, you know, there's it's seemingly like even though gold had a great year last year, it's seemingly like everybody around. 259 00:27:17,152 --> 00:27:25,112 There's always some sort of conversation about, oh, we can mine gold off of asteroids like Elon or the Winklevoss twins have said to people. 260 00:27:25,112 --> 00:27:28,972 You have different countries finding unmined gold. 261 00:27:29,632 --> 00:27:36,092 Do you think the, I guess, just the mental shift and understanding how scarce Bitcoin is, 262 00:27:36,532 --> 00:27:41,172 has that turned into, I guess, a bigger conversation where they understand like, 263 00:27:41,252 --> 00:27:47,392 hey, the scarcity of Bitcoin is actually better than utilizing just debt instruments 264 00:27:47,392 --> 00:27:52,492 and just the scarcity aspect of Bitcoin, just how powerful that is? 265 00:27:52,492 --> 00:28:03,152 Yeah, I mean, I do think people are starting to better understand and appreciate sort of the, you know, how hard and how pristine Bitcoin is compared to other assets. 266 00:28:03,152 --> 00:28:29,012 Now, I think that in 2026, I actually expect that conversation to become more mainstream and hopefully more talked about to help educate a wider number of people about why Bitcoin, you know, why people believe in Bitcoin to the extent that they do and why it is an asset class that is worth consideration from an ownership and investment perspective. 267 00:28:29,012 --> 00:28:35,872 Right. I mean, we and one of the sort of fun slogans that we've come up with and we talk to people about is zero is the wrong number. 268 00:28:35,872 --> 00:28:44,492 Like when you are thinking about Bitcoin ownership, you know, everybody's going to have their own preferences about how they're going to split up their portfolio. 269 00:28:44,932 --> 00:28:48,312 But I can tell you zero is the wrong number. Right. 270 00:28:48,312 --> 00:29:00,132 It is going to be an asset that should be in people's portfolios to help build wealth, help to provide some resiliency and some flexibility for liquidity going forward. 271 00:29:00,132 --> 00:29:23,272 And whether you end up borrowing against it, whether you allow for a third party to have custody or you self-custody, having it and figuring out how to have it as part of your investment strategy, I think it's an important consideration for people to think through and make their own decision about how it fits in and why it fits in. 272 00:29:23,272 --> 00:29:36,332 Yeah, 100%. And I think when we're, I guess, going a step farther from this, I think it's really interesting the development of all these different markets that we're starting to see. You mentioned it earlier, you were in MENA. 273 00:29:37,192 --> 00:29:43,192 Saylor has been coming up and trying to peek into that $300 trillion global bond market, 274 00:29:43,392 --> 00:29:46,012 the $145 trillion fixed income market. 275 00:29:46,452 --> 00:29:49,652 And then he brought up in MENA the $200 trillion credit market. 276 00:29:50,412 --> 00:29:54,172 And obviously, those aren't small numbers when we're talking about all this, right? 277 00:29:54,212 --> 00:29:58,772 That's like nearly $650 trillion worth of markets at this point. 278 00:29:58,992 --> 00:30:04,452 And if Bitcoin just gets a small percentage of that, it would be massive as just under 279 00:30:04,452 --> 00:30:07,012 a $2 trillion asset as we're here recording today. 280 00:30:07,572 --> 00:30:20,684 So I guess how do you see this aspect starting to develop Because it not only the collateral now it seems like Bitcoin is starting to swallow up all these different markets Yeah I mean I was in Mania for Sailor Talk 281 00:30:20,684 --> 00:30:26,764 and I think it's a really encouraging framework and sort of perspective 282 00:30:26,764 --> 00:30:30,204 that he is sharing with everybody in terms of the market as a whole. 283 00:30:30,384 --> 00:30:33,904 So if we look at, I think, what strategy is doing now, 284 00:30:34,344 --> 00:30:37,864 especially with some of their new offerings to the market, right? 285 00:30:37,864 --> 00:30:46,124 They are using Bitcoin as a pristine, hard asset class to really sort of drive value. 286 00:30:46,384 --> 00:30:50,144 Now, if you want exposure to Bitcoin, right, you have the choice, hey, I want to buy it. 287 00:30:50,184 --> 00:30:51,144 I want to own it myself. 288 00:30:51,424 --> 00:31:02,444 And if you do that, then you have the full potential of all of the upside over sort of the next year, five years, 10 years, whatever your time horizon is. 289 00:31:02,724 --> 00:31:05,124 But you also have the risk of the volatility. 290 00:31:05,124 --> 00:31:23,164 And I think what's innovative and what strategy is doing is they're basically creating fixed income products that is taking out a lot of the volatility and providing a much more stable income on an annualized or even monthly basis in terms of the dividends they're paying out. 291 00:31:23,164 --> 00:31:42,724 And I feel like that becomes a real win-win from an income perspective as it relates to digital credit, because you're now giving additional ways to access the value, the appreciation, the exposure to Bitcoin through more traditional fixed income type products. 292 00:31:43,144 --> 00:31:50,204 And I think the other half of the digital credit sort of equation then is actually liquidity. 293 00:31:50,204 --> 00:32:02,364 So I think it's positive that Bitcoin is being used to drive income, being used as a structured sort of asset and product to allow people to get some exposure without some of the volatility. 294 00:32:02,844 --> 00:32:06,484 And the same thing is starting to happen on the liquidity side. 295 00:32:06,484 --> 00:32:36,004 So a lot of the work that we've been doing at SALT and I see in the markets as a whole are one, how do we make it easier for people to leverage their Bitcoin for liquidity, for cash, so that they can make additional investments, they can make purchases, they can live their life the way they want to live it and not feel like they can't do anything until they retire or even have to be forced sellers for the liquidity. 296 00:32:36,484 --> 00:33:00,904 The other big move that I think is happening in the market is that because of all the additional interest and capital that's coming into the Bitcoin market as a whole, I do expect we will see prices come down and we will see more options for borrowing or borrowing products to access liquidity, whether it's different custody models, it's lower rates, it's different terms. 297 00:33:00,904 --> 00:33:12,184 But that additional interest, that additional capital that is coming to market, I think is going to be really interesting and beneficial for the customers, whether you're an individual or your business as we go forward. 298 00:33:12,184 --> 00:33:24,564 And then the third area that I think is really exciting, and at Salt, we've been working on it for a long time, given how many cycles we've navigated throughout the history, and that is starting to eliminate downside protection. 299 00:33:24,564 --> 00:33:35,364 So just as strategy is doing on eliminating volatility and downside on the income side, we're doing the same thing on the liquidity side. 300 00:33:35,604 --> 00:33:42,384 So we have a stabilization product that allows people to convert into stablecoin during periods of high volatility. 301 00:33:42,804 --> 00:33:51,144 We came out earlier in 2025 with Salt Shield, which takes away all volatility and potential liquidation events. 302 00:33:51,144 --> 00:34:04,844 And I think the market as a whole is going to continue to figure out how we protect owners of Bitcoin who want liquidity by leveraging their Bitcoin so that your Bitcoin stays your Bitcoin. 303 00:34:05,224 --> 00:34:10,984 This bull run, I'm looking for ways to stack Bitcoin in my sleep and mining has always caught my eye. 304 00:34:11,284 --> 00:34:16,324 I've partnered with the guys over at Simple Mining to help you do just that. 305 00:34:16,324 --> 00:34:19,104 I don't recommend anything that I don't use personally. 306 00:34:19,524 --> 00:34:22,804 So I've got a machine up and running with them right this second. 307 00:34:23,124 --> 00:34:27,144 And they've even opened the facility up so anyone can go and visit. 308 00:34:27,844 --> 00:34:33,604 They manage over 15,000 machines for 500 clients handling all of the maintenance and repairs 309 00:34:33,604 --> 00:34:35,244 so you don't have to. 310 00:34:35,644 --> 00:34:38,764 And for the Green Candle listeners, they're giving an exclusive offer. 311 00:34:39,144 --> 00:34:41,824 All the repairs for the first year for free. 312 00:34:41,824 --> 00:34:55,364 So if you've been thinking about mining, head on over to simplemining.io slash green candle to get this exclusive offer and learn about the potential tax benefits that you can get from mining with Simple Mining. 313 00:34:55,644 --> 00:34:58,204 All right, enough from me. Let's get back to the show. 314 00:35:04,084 --> 00:35:11,464 Yeah, and I think the pristine collateral of Bitcoin, you know, that it's been kind of coined, I think it just makes sense. 315 00:35:11,824 --> 00:35:15,144 And I think that that's going to, I guess, continue to develop. 316 00:35:15,144 --> 00:35:38,424 So, you know, I guess with Saylor kind of coming in and I guess the strategy playbook, so to speak, of tapping into all of these markets, I guess, you know, let's power rank in a sense, like where you think the biggest shifts from TradFi kind of coming in here in 2026 is, I guess, coming over. 317 00:35:38,424 --> 00:35:42,604 because we've talked about the banks coming in where Saylor himself has come out and said, 318 00:35:42,724 --> 00:35:46,804 that's going to be, you know, one of the biggest things that he foresees this year. 319 00:35:47,124 --> 00:35:51,164 You know, we've talked about the sovereign nation, our sovereign wealth funds start to come in. 320 00:35:51,164 --> 00:35:56,764 And then we've talked about, you know, you know, kind of the retail investor or the big time 321 00:35:56,764 --> 00:36:02,124 investors who are looking for maybe something like a dividend or something to protect the downside 322 00:36:02,124 --> 00:36:06,884 risk. Which of those three do you think is, you know, if we had a power rank of one to three, 323 00:36:06,884 --> 00:36:11,824 which do you think is going to be the biggest development and kind of the biggest orange 324 00:36:11,824 --> 00:36:18,144 pillar, so to speak, that'll bring people in here in this next year? I think it's going to be the 325 00:36:18,144 --> 00:36:23,124 management of the risk and helping people understand that. Because I think I believe 326 00:36:23,124 --> 00:36:30,644 the biggest sort of orange pill sort of lever there is, is the predictability of the appreciation 327 00:36:30,644 --> 00:36:36,644 of the asset. And I think what's going to happen is as strategy is doing, as Salt and other 328 00:36:36,644 --> 00:36:43,284 players in the market are doing, they're creating products that are allowing, you know, there to be 329 00:36:43,284 --> 00:36:51,224 a sharing of the risk and a sharing of the upside. And one party is taking more potentially of the 330 00:36:51,224 --> 00:36:57,524 risk like MicroStrategy is doing on the downside, but capping the upside for somebody that is buying 331 00:36:57,524 --> 00:37:02,424 that product. And I think that's going to draw more people in because they can, they want the 332 00:37:02,424 --> 00:37:08,744 exposure, you know, the 10 or 11% dividend that strategy is playing out on some of their fixed 333 00:37:08,744 --> 00:37:15,464 income products is super attractive compared to savings rates to compared to other traditional 334 00:37:15,464 --> 00:37:21,844 fixed on the assets. And so that I think is going to bring people in as they see those products 335 00:37:21,844 --> 00:37:28,644 perform. And as new products get brought into the market that help take manage that risk in a way 336 00:37:28,644 --> 00:37:32,304 that's understandable for TradFi markets, 337 00:37:32,764 --> 00:37:35,664 we'll see more adoption, more curiosity, 338 00:37:35,664 --> 00:37:37,524 and more people trying to figure out 339 00:37:37,524 --> 00:37:41,244 how to participate in a way that fits 340 00:37:41,244 --> 00:37:44,684 their own risk preferences and profiles. 341 00:37:44,964 --> 00:37:47,344 Why would you ever hold generational wealth 342 00:37:47,344 --> 00:37:48,384 on a piece of paper? 343 00:37:48,784 --> 00:37:49,784 It doesn't make sense. 344 00:37:50,044 --> 00:37:52,004 You need a foolproof solution, 345 00:37:52,004 --> 00:37:53,564 and I've got it for you. 346 00:37:53,724 --> 00:37:55,884 You could get this as low as $25, 347 00:37:56,364 --> 00:37:57,844 and if you use promo code GREENCANDLE, 348 00:37:57,844 --> 00:38:04,584 you can get 10% off. Being around for 12 years, they've engineered the perfect and most easy to 349 00:38:04,584 --> 00:38:10,264 use solution. I've partnered with CryptoSteel to offer for you guys just that. It is the cheapest 350 00:38:10,264 --> 00:38:15,724 and most secure way to store your C-phrase. I don't know about you guys, but I don't have 351 00:38:15,724 --> 00:38:21,444 too many things where I think one ton is going to fall on this, but it could survive all of that 352 00:38:21,444 --> 00:38:29,584 and more. So go to CryptoSteel.com. You can use promo code GreenCandle. You can get 10% off your 353 00:38:29,584 --> 00:38:36,284 entire order if you go there today. So go ahead and protect your generational wealth and do it 354 00:38:36,284 --> 00:38:42,444 with CryptoSteel. All right, enough from me. Back to the show. Yeah, I think it's really interesting 355 00:38:42,444 --> 00:38:47,644 because I don't know how closely you're following maybe some of these other, I guess, like places 356 00:38:47,644 --> 00:38:52,204 like Robinhood or something like that. But I've got a Robinhood account that I used to use now. 357 00:38:52,324 --> 00:38:58,584 I don't use it too often anymore, but I just got an email that they're raising there. If you hold 358 00:38:58,584 --> 00:39:03,124 cash on Robinhood, they're giving you like four, four and a half percent or something like that. 359 00:39:03,264 --> 00:39:09,244 So I think it's just going to be something where people are going to figure out the strategies that 360 00:39:09,244 --> 00:39:15,684 strategy is using and just see this as almost as a savings account. So I think it's going to be 361 00:39:15,684 --> 00:39:21,644 yeah, like really unique. And seeing that, I mean, that's honestly what I'm kind of starting 362 00:39:21,644 --> 00:39:27,044 to think about is, you know, how much can I just allocate to, you know, one of these fixed income 363 00:39:27,044 --> 00:39:33,264 products that Sailor is offering? And, you know, how can that, you know, just, I guess, 364 00:39:33,264 --> 00:39:38,964 weather some of the storms of the volatility of Bitcoin, which, you know, obviously, we had a down 365 00:39:38,964 --> 00:39:44,444 year within this past year, but their ability to continue to raise money, and, you know, now they're 366 00:39:44,444 --> 00:39:49,264 having some of that cash on hand in order to, I guess, weather some of these storms, I think is 367 00:39:49,264 --> 00:39:56,524 really interesting. But, you know, we, we talked a little bit about 26. I want you to project forward, 368 00:39:56,524 --> 00:40:01,004 like, what do you think is some of the bigger things that you'll, you'll see this year? Because 369 00:40:01,004 --> 00:40:05,124 I know we talked, you know, about the banks, we talked about the sovereign wealth funds and people 370 00:40:05,124 --> 00:40:10,424 starting to live on it. But do you think do you have any like crazy predictions, I guess that you 371 00:40:10,424 --> 00:40:15,584 don't think too many people are talking about that you see just from your travels around the world 372 00:40:15,584 --> 00:40:20,344 that could be potentially something that somebody looks back at the end of 26 like wow i couldn't 373 00:40:20,344 --> 00:40:25,524 believe that happened well i think you touched on the first so for the first one i would say 374 00:40:25,524 --> 00:40:31,764 macro pressures are going to keep optionality as being more valuable than prediction on sort of the 375 00:40:31,764 --> 00:40:36,524 price appreciation i think we're seeing the market mature i think your comment that you just made 376 00:40:36,524 --> 00:40:41,384 about people wanting to figure out how to weather the storms and manage that volatility 377 00:40:41,384 --> 00:40:46,264 will continue to be on the forefront, especially as more capital comes into the market. 378 00:40:47,264 --> 00:40:54,204 And so I think we'll see an expansion of products, an expansion of services, and an expansion 379 00:40:54,204 --> 00:40:55,264 of participation. 380 00:40:55,704 --> 00:41:02,284 But with people thinking about how do I gain optionality in terms of my assets, right? 381 00:41:02,284 --> 00:41:03,244 I don't want to lose them. 382 00:41:03,304 --> 00:41:04,404 I don't want to sell them. 383 00:41:04,404 --> 00:41:14,564 And I'm more concerned and I value that optionality more than I do pure appreciation or sort of speculation on the price. 384 00:41:14,564 --> 00:41:21,744 the second thing i would say is i do think there is a potential risk that the maturity gap widens 385 00:41:21,744 --> 00:41:28,264 and that operational fluency is going to be more important than sort of cycle obsession that we're 386 00:41:28,264 --> 00:41:34,404 you know getting out of a cycle mindset starting to really understand how bitcoin works how 387 00:41:34,404 --> 00:41:39,884 strategically you can use the different products to manage risk based on your own profiles i think 388 00:41:39,884 --> 00:41:45,024 that's going to be really important. And for those that don't lean in and learn about Bitcoin, 389 00:41:45,264 --> 00:41:50,564 learn about the tools, learn about the ecosystem, we'll be at a disadvantage to those that are 390 00:41:50,564 --> 00:41:58,364 willing to consider Bitcoin as a valuable asset class, as an asset class that has earned its spot 391 00:41:58,364 --> 00:42:05,444 alongside the other sort of top five asset classes globally. And if they don't do that, 392 00:42:05,444 --> 00:42:11,624 I think they'll be left behind. The third prediction I would say for 2026 is that public 393 00:42:11,624 --> 00:42:17,604 market activity will ramp up, that the interest in Bitcoin, the capital that is coming to the 394 00:42:17,604 --> 00:42:25,924 digital asset sort of economy is going to accelerate in 2026. I think we had figure went 395 00:42:25,924 --> 00:42:32,884 public in 2025. We had sort of 21 Capital had their offering before the close of the year. 396 00:42:32,884 --> 00:43:01,044 Obviously, strategy has done a lot of a bunch. You know, we are going to see, you know, think that we'll see more and more activity that will bring capital into the markets. We'll see sort of more companies raising capital to continue to build the foundations that will be needed to expand globally and to expand over the next decade to support Bitcoin as a growing asset class sort of overall. 397 00:43:01,044 --> 00:43:18,064 The other prediction, especially in terms of, you know, that I see happening is that treasury companies are going to start gobbling up operating companies to add revenue generation onto, you know, into their ecosystem, onto their balance sheet. 398 00:43:18,064 --> 00:43:25,304 and that it will become harder for companies just to be treasury companies in and of themselves 399 00:43:25,304 --> 00:43:27,624 without sort of some revenue generation. 400 00:43:27,864 --> 00:43:32,444 And so I think that will be a little bit of a consolidation within the market 401 00:43:32,444 --> 00:43:35,044 as well as all these other elements that are taking place. 402 00:43:35,724 --> 00:43:40,144 Yeah, that's interesting because I mean, I kind of think the same thing with the treasury companies 403 00:43:40,144 --> 00:43:45,804 because we saw, I think when Trump got elected, there was about 64 publicly traded companies 404 00:43:45,804 --> 00:43:47,744 that had Bitcoin on the balance sheet. 405 00:43:48,064 --> 00:43:50,264 And then I think we ended the year at like 210. 406 00:43:50,624 --> 00:43:53,824 So obviously that was a huge explosion in all of that. 407 00:43:54,104 --> 00:43:56,364 And that seemed to be the wave all of 25. 408 00:43:56,364 --> 00:44:01,064 It was not only using Bitcoin as collateral, it was the treasury play. 409 00:44:01,944 --> 00:44:03,804 So let's dive into that a little bit more. 410 00:44:04,184 --> 00:44:09,484 Do you think it's going to be, I guess, like companies more building Bitcoin-based products? 411 00:44:09,484 --> 00:44:15,364 Or do you think it's just going to be these treasury companies kind of getting into everyday life where it's, 412 00:44:15,364 --> 00:44:21,264 you know, hey, maybe like an Apple, so to speak, where it's not necessarily a Bitcoin company, 413 00:44:21,264 --> 00:44:25,544 but it's like a tech-focused company. And I'm not saying Apple is going to hold Bitcoin on the 414 00:44:25,544 --> 00:44:30,684 balance sheet. I don't, maybe if you think they are, I don't know. But, you know, that's kind of 415 00:44:30,684 --> 00:44:35,584 the example that just came to the mind is, you know, a company that's maybe not fully associated 416 00:44:35,584 --> 00:44:41,424 with Bitcoin starting to hold Bitcoin on the balance sheet. Yeah, so I think there's going to 417 00:44:41,424 --> 00:44:48,424 I think there's two things that I expect to see happen in 2026 regarding Bitcoin on the balance sheet. 418 00:44:49,204 --> 00:44:59,584 For pure Bitcoin treasury companies, as we know of them in terms of MetaPlanet and Strategy and Nakamoto and others, 419 00:45:00,204 --> 00:45:08,584 they will start gobbling up operating companies and I think start to go down a little bit what Michael Saylor was talking about 420 00:45:08,584 --> 00:45:12,404 in terms of a sort of a full digital bank 421 00:45:12,404 --> 00:45:13,664 powered by Bitcoin, 422 00:45:14,044 --> 00:45:29,535 where they going to buy different sort of functionality by businesses that have different products that are working within the Bitcoin ecosystem that can take advantage of having sort of a large balance 423 00:45:29,535 --> 00:45:35,376 sheet of Bitcoin, but also generate revenues that can be there to both pay out dividends and buy 424 00:45:35,376 --> 00:45:41,775 more Bitcoin. So I think there will be activities that will happen in that. And I think there's 425 00:45:41,775 --> 00:45:47,416 still a lot to play for. Like, I think we'll see treasury companies in every sort of, you know, 426 00:45:47,416 --> 00:45:54,936 market where there is sort of a stock market, where sort of assets can be traded to sort of 427 00:45:54,936 --> 00:46:01,696 have something that appeals to those regional and those local economies. I think the other big class 428 00:46:01,696 --> 00:46:06,876 are going to be the companies, to your point, that are not necessarily Bitcoin native, but they're 429 00:46:06,876 --> 00:46:12,675 looking at accumulating Bitcoin on their balance sheet to help build the value of the company as a 430 00:46:12,675 --> 00:46:17,755 whole. It's actually one of the areas that I'm really excited about because I think small and 431 00:46:17,755 --> 00:46:25,115 medium-sized businesses starting to convert revenue into Bitcoin and having a more proactive 432 00:46:25,115 --> 00:46:33,735 treasury management strategy is really good for the resiliency and the longevity of those businesses. 433 00:46:33,735 --> 00:47:02,015 Small and medium-sized businesses traditionally have struggled to stay alive during market volatility, during down cycles, because it's hard to access credit through traditional markets, through regional banks. It's expensive. You have to go through, you know, sort of oftentimes cumbersome, underwriting procedures, and even potentially put ownership of your own personal assets at, you know, up for grabs in those scenarios. 434 00:47:02,015 --> 00:47:22,655 And I think businesses that start to convert 1, 2, 3, 5% of monthly revenues, weekly revenues into Bitcoin, all of a sudden build an asset that if they need to tap into it easily and quickly, they can for operational expenses to bridge a couple months because of a downturn. 435 00:47:23,095 --> 00:47:31,936 And or if there's an opportunity to make an additional investment to grow the business, they can access that quickly and they can move fast. 436 00:47:32,015 --> 00:48:00,976 And so I think there's a lot of strategic reasons that more small and medium sized businesses will start to strategically look at how do I get, I mean, even just 50 to $100,000 worth of Bitcoin on their balance sheet to provide them flexibility in a way that today they don't have if they don't have much cash and if they're having to look to traditional credit markets for liquidity. 437 00:48:00,976 --> 00:48:22,416 Yeah, I think 100%. I think that it essentially just revolutionizes the business market, so to speak. So continuing on for that, the treasury companies were very big here in 26. But do you think there were some, I guess, obviously there was some companies that ended up needing to sell. 438 00:48:22,416 --> 00:48:30,115 you touched on it, I guess, a little bit earlier that the sentiment was still very strong on Bitcoin 439 00:48:30,115 --> 00:48:36,335 in 25. But we didn't dive into a lot of the bullish things that you saw in 25 outside of 440 00:48:36,335 --> 00:48:42,815 just kind of the developments and kind of the just general adoption. What were some of the big 441 00:48:42,815 --> 00:48:48,775 things that you saw that really pointed out to say, hey, 2025 was a really pivotal year in Bitcoin. 442 00:48:48,775 --> 00:48:55,835 And, you know, I think looking back, we're going to see a lot of people looking at this as like, hey, this this year really changed a lot. 443 00:48:57,075 --> 00:49:15,655 So, I mean, outside of some of the things that we've already talked about, you know, first of all, going to events, starting with sort of Bitcoin Las Vegas back in May, where, you know, I think there was forget the number, but it was close to 40,000 people that were at Bitcoin Las Vegas in terms of an event. 444 00:49:15,655 --> 00:49:26,716 Right. So right out of the gate, there was this level of enthusiasm, a level of incitement and a level of participation that as an industry we have not seen before. 445 00:49:26,916 --> 00:49:34,856 So that was exciting. I then went to Hong Kong and Hong Kong had over 20,000 people come to the conference there in terms of interest. 446 00:49:35,075 --> 00:49:41,035 And it was unbelievable to see the diversity of people that were interested in Bitcoin. 447 00:49:41,035 --> 00:49:51,456 I mean, I talked to people that were from Singapore, from mainland China, that were from Hong Kong, from Vietnam, from Korea, from Malaysia, and they'd flown in from New Zealand and Australia. 448 00:49:51,696 --> 00:49:54,755 I mean, the level of interest was unbelievable. 449 00:49:54,755 --> 00:50:09,315 And then walking the floor and talking with the companies that were building the tools to allow people to custody Bitcoin, to access the economy in terms of offer it as a means of exchange. 450 00:50:09,315 --> 00:50:18,936 I mean, the level of innovation that's happening now globally on the back of the sort of core technology of Bitcoin, I think, is super exciting. 451 00:50:19,496 --> 00:50:24,635 And that only continued in terms of when I went to Europe and sort of the conference in Amsterdam. 452 00:50:25,396 --> 00:50:32,595 Amsterdam was entering much more of a corporate focus in Amsterdam than it was an individual in retail. 453 00:50:32,996 --> 00:50:38,856 And so Europe seems to be evolving at a little bit of a different pace and in a different sequence. 454 00:50:39,315 --> 00:50:44,795 than the additional markets. But to then close the year out with Mania, I think was super exciting. 455 00:50:44,795 --> 00:50:50,715 That was another big show, another show where I would say it's very balanced in terms of both 456 00:50:50,715 --> 00:51:00,735 individual and corporate interest, as well as all the other capital sort of access and interest and 457 00:51:00,735 --> 00:51:05,936 investment that's coming into the market as a whole. I mean, for people that haven't visited 458 00:51:05,936 --> 00:51:12,376 Dubai and Abu Dhabi. It is a fascinating place to go for a lot of reasons. But even if you're a 459 00:51:12,376 --> 00:51:17,635 Bitcoin or even more so, I mean, what you can do with Bitcoin over there, I was having a conversation 460 00:51:17,635 --> 00:51:23,376 with a friend. Now, I don't say I would do this, but he can use Bitcoin to pay for his dentist. 461 00:51:23,936 --> 00:51:29,376 I mean, the amount that Bitcoin is baked into the ecosystem over there is unbelievable. And 462 00:51:29,376 --> 00:51:37,075 there's a mindset for understanding Bitcoin as an ecosystem, Bitcoin as an asset class in Mania 463 00:51:37,075 --> 00:51:42,795 in that region, which I think is really exciting, right? They're looking at it as, you know, how do 464 00:51:42,795 --> 00:51:48,575 we put our money to work? How do we think about sort of assets on a longer term basis? And how do 465 00:51:48,575 --> 00:51:56,515 we accumulate assets that will help fund our life without having to sell the assets? And so there's 466 00:51:56,515 --> 00:51:58,255 I think there's just a great mindset. 467 00:51:58,496 --> 00:52:05,456 And I feel that we will look at both 2025 being a critical year, pivotal year, transition 468 00:52:05,456 --> 00:52:06,376 year for Bitcoin. 469 00:52:06,376 --> 00:52:13,155 But also I expect to see Manea playing a larger role globally in sort of just really showing 470 00:52:13,155 --> 00:52:15,856 how things can change and will change. 471 00:52:16,575 --> 00:52:23,615 Given how Manea really ends up being a bridge between Europe and Asia Pacific, it's easier 472 00:52:23,615 --> 00:52:27,916 to get to or easier to get to from sort of the Americas as well. 473 00:52:28,015 --> 00:52:31,976 It just, I think it's going to be a really hot spot for a lot of innovative activity. 474 00:52:32,635 --> 00:52:33,936 Yeah, that's really interesting. 475 00:52:34,075 --> 00:52:39,436 How do you think, I guess, Mania is starting to play into the game theory of just, you know, 476 00:52:39,436 --> 00:52:40,335 sovereign nations? 477 00:52:40,696 --> 00:52:45,356 And, you know, I mean, I guess obviously we've seen, you know, Dubai become like a hot spot 478 00:52:45,356 --> 00:52:49,115 just for wealthy individuals because of the incentives that they're giving them. 479 00:52:49,115 --> 00:53:02,515 So how do you see, I guess, just that area and, you know, I guess Bitcoin playing into the game theory of, you know, essentially Bitcoin becoming a Bitcoin standard, I guess, down the line? 480 00:53:02,515 --> 00:53:16,775 Yeah, one thing to sort of remember, especially about UAE, is that the majority of the people there are people that have chosen to move there for different reasons, different incentives. 481 00:53:16,775 --> 00:53:25,595 But there is a culture that is very digital currency, digital asset fluent. 482 00:53:26,595 --> 00:53:36,095 It's a culture that is proactively thinking about building value for the long term and what those tools and strategies are. 483 00:53:36,095 --> 00:53:47,275 And from sort of a sovereign wealth perspective, right, there's a lot of cash and capital that is in the market that is looking for places to be productive. 484 00:53:48,095 --> 00:53:55,956 And so I think Mania will hold a lot of signals for us in terms of at a retail level, at a sort of means of exchange level. 485 00:53:56,075 --> 00:53:58,675 How are people using it? What do people want to use it for? 486 00:53:58,996 --> 00:54:03,735 But also planning for the long term, creating generational wealth. 487 00:54:03,735 --> 00:54:08,416 how are they looking at Bitcoin as being a part of their overall portfolio, 488 00:54:09,315 --> 00:54:14,496 then I think you're going to be key signals for, you know, for everybody globally. 489 00:54:15,555 --> 00:54:21,595 Yeah. And I think, you know, once we start to get, I guess, some of these big players start to buy 490 00:54:21,595 --> 00:54:27,835 Bitcoin or at least announce it, because I'm curious, was there any revelings? Like, I mean, 491 00:54:27,835 --> 00:54:33,376 I know Trump has, Eric Trump has come out and said on stage that, you know, there are countries 492 00:54:33,376 --> 00:54:37,815 and stuff like that, buying Bitcoin, and they're saying all this, you know, kind of behind closed 493 00:54:37,815 --> 00:54:44,515 doors. Was there, I guess, that general sense there in Mania that this is going on and, you know, 494 00:54:44,515 --> 00:54:48,595 people are, you know, just maybe not talking about it just yet? 495 00:54:50,155 --> 00:54:54,476 No, I think so. I would agree. I mean, there were a lot of conversations and meetings that 496 00:54:54,476 --> 00:55:00,436 were taking place. You could see people meeting with Saylor, meeting with other people that were 497 00:55:00,436 --> 00:55:07,416 their, you know, representatives from the UAE, from different businesses, families, etc. 498 00:55:07,675 --> 00:55:14,956 I think we will see more activity in that space as whether it's investment in Bitcoin, 499 00:55:15,155 --> 00:55:20,095 whether it's investment in the companies that are going to drive the ecosystem or a combination. 500 00:55:20,856 --> 00:55:22,775 Then, but there's a lot there. 501 00:55:22,775 --> 00:55:31,235 I would view it as an increased level of interest about truly participating in the ecosystem as a whole. 502 00:55:33,515 --> 00:55:51,675 Yeah, and I think that that'll continue here in 26 because, I mean, I think at the end of the day, you know, when we're seeing all these different markets, you know, you're lining out here, 26, reducing the volatility, kind of getting that exposure to, yeah, I guess Bitcoin without the risks. 503 00:55:52,655 --> 00:55:56,635 I think that we're going to start to see this really play out. 504 00:55:56,635 --> 00:56:00,055 But I think we mentioned it a little bit last time when we spoke, 505 00:56:00,196 --> 00:56:03,376 but I know you're writing a book and you co-authored a book here. 506 00:56:04,175 --> 00:56:06,295 Why don't you tell people a little bit about that? 507 00:56:06,615 --> 00:56:09,916 And I guess how that journey, because I know you're talking to a lot of people, 508 00:56:09,976 --> 00:56:13,815 how they're using Bitcoin, how that journey is going. 509 00:56:14,215 --> 00:56:19,655 And I mean, I know you touched on a little bit in Dubai and in Hong Kong, 510 00:56:19,735 --> 00:56:21,015 but what about in the United States? 511 00:56:21,015 --> 00:56:32,215 I'm curious, you know, obviously there was Vegas, but, you know, how do you see the development and kind of some of the conversations you see people living on a Bitcoin standard here in the U.S. right now? 512 00:56:32,215 --> 00:56:51,615 Yeah, so Sean Owen and I, Sean Owen is the founder and CEO of Salt. We're writing a book called The Bitcoin Advantage to really, really help educate and inform people about why, you know, why we think Bitcoin is an exciting and valuable asset class. 513 00:56:52,615 --> 00:56:59,815 And so within the book, we really start to explore some of the history, some of the background of the evolution of Bitcoin, 514 00:56:59,815 --> 00:57:11,655 but also really start to look into why does Bitcoin start to make sense as an individual, as a company, as a nation, to have it as a reserve asset? 515 00:57:11,835 --> 00:57:13,615 And what does that allow you to do? 516 00:57:13,615 --> 00:57:22,095 And how does that help people think about their financial strategies, either individually or at a corporate level? 517 00:57:22,715 --> 00:57:30,615 And it's been just really exciting to go around and talk to people and understand more about the diversity of frustrations, 518 00:57:30,755 --> 00:57:39,696 of challenges they're looking to solve and what the current markets and economic trends are really forcing people into to considering. 519 00:57:39,696 --> 00:57:47,795 And part of the Bitcoin advantage, a real element around it is helping with sort of the financial literacy challenge. 520 00:57:48,095 --> 00:57:53,595 Because I think as I go around and I talk to people, you know, especially in the U.S., I feel like in the U.S. 521 00:57:53,615 --> 00:57:56,635 And I, you know, I teach at the University of Colorado. 522 00:57:56,635 --> 00:58:02,635 And so I have a perspective on sort of what's going on from a college education perspective. 523 00:58:02,635 --> 00:58:17,856 But there are still major gaps in terms of us helping give individuals the tools, the knowledge that they need to be proactive, to be sort of autonomous and really take ownership of planning their own financial future. 524 00:58:17,856 --> 00:58:37,035 And so we hope this book can play a small role in doing that, hope sort of educate people on what questions they should be asking about Bitcoin and what the potential opportunities, if they invest the time and effort to learn more about the asset class and all the tools and capabilities that surround it. 525 00:58:37,035 --> 00:58:43,075 yeah i definitely think that that you know i'm curious like with the college kids i'm sure that 526 00:58:43,075 --> 00:58:49,615 they're they're like more bitcoin friendly than maybe uh you know uh the generations prior to them 527 00:58:49,615 --> 00:58:54,916 um you know now obviously it's become more mainstream um i mean i know i've gone to a 528 00:58:54,916 --> 00:59:00,795 couple of the colleges here in tampa and you know all over the the u.s and they're having like clubs 529 00:59:00,795 --> 00:59:05,815 that are just talking all about this so it is kind of interesting to see the development but yeah i 530 00:59:05,815 --> 00:59:09,275 I think there is still a big education gap. 531 00:59:09,515 --> 00:59:13,655 And I commend you for trying to help with that 532 00:59:13,655 --> 00:59:16,436 because I think that there is the financial literacy. 533 00:59:16,815 --> 00:59:19,996 You can't just essentially put your money in the bank anymore. 534 00:59:20,476 --> 00:59:23,696 And I think Bitcoin's a huge reason for us 535 00:59:23,696 --> 00:59:26,675 to potentially flip retirement savings, 536 00:59:26,675 --> 00:59:28,075 all that on its head. 537 00:59:28,255 --> 00:59:30,456 But Hunter, you've been very generous with your time. 538 00:59:30,535 --> 00:59:31,936 You always bring a wealth of knowledge. 539 00:59:31,936 --> 00:59:33,675 So I really appreciate our conversations. 540 00:59:34,215 --> 00:59:35,275 Why don't you tell people more 541 00:59:35,275 --> 00:59:36,916 about where they can find out about you 542 00:59:36,916 --> 00:59:38,835 and what you guys got going on in Salt 543 00:59:38,835 --> 00:59:39,936 and the Bitcoin Advantage. 544 00:59:40,655 --> 00:59:41,696 Yeah, I would be happy to. 545 00:59:41,815 --> 00:59:43,315 So you can find more about me. 546 00:59:43,315 --> 00:59:45,575 I'm so easily found on X and LinkedIn 547 00:59:45,575 --> 00:59:48,235 from sort of a social media perspective. 548 00:59:48,575 --> 00:59:51,115 If you want to learn more, go to saltlending.com. 549 00:59:51,196 --> 00:59:52,555 We have a range of resources 550 00:59:52,555 --> 00:59:55,095 to help with the financial education 551 00:59:55,095 --> 00:59:57,555 and for you to understand more about Bitcoin 552 00:59:57,555 --> 01:00:00,976 as well as understand more about if you own it, 553 01:00:01,015 --> 01:00:02,815 how you might leverage it responsibly. 554 01:00:03,735 --> 01:00:04,135 Awesome. 555 01:00:04,255 --> 01:00:05,876 And I'll put all that in the show notes. 556 01:00:05,976 --> 01:00:07,115 So Hunter, thanks so much. 557 01:00:07,595 --> 01:00:08,575 It's been a pleasure, Brandon. 558 01:00:09,095 --> 01:00:13,555 Thank you guys all for tuning in to another great episode of the State of Bitcoin podcast. 559 01:00:13,976 --> 01:00:17,936 If you found some value in this one, please hit that subscribe button and that like button 560 01:00:17,936 --> 01:00:19,335 to help send this one to the masses. 561 01:00:19,555 --> 01:00:20,856 And I've got a surprise for you guys. 562 01:00:20,856 --> 01:00:24,215 I've got two more episodes that you have the chance to watch here. 563 01:00:24,356 --> 01:00:27,215 So go ahead and click one of them and I'll see you guys all at the next one.