So, Ben, I got to ask you just straight up, man.
How much Bitcoin do you need to retire?
One Bitcoin.
No, I'm just kidding.
But you know, like, it really depends on...
I'm going to explain everything about it,
and we're going to go through all the math.
How I came up with the numbers,
how you can pull the numbers yourself.
If your monthly expenses are $10,000,
and you have 10 years to retirement,
you need one Bitcoin.
And you can see year over year how that works.
Bitcoin is going to be the only tool for freedom in that world.
Why do you think AI is going to recommend people
put their money into it?
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I drop a video. All right, now let's get back into this great interview.
Bing bong. I am back with another edition of the State of Bitcoin podcast where I've got the man,
the myth, the legend, Ben Sigmund in the house, who recently had a very interesting thread on how
much Bitcoin you need to retire. And I had to bring him on because this thing caught my eye.
So Ben, I got to ask you just straight up, man, how much Bitcoin do you need to retire?
One Bitcoin. No, I'm just kidding. But you know, like, it really depends on how your expenses are.
And we're going to go through all the math. I'm going to explain everything about it,
how I came up with the numbers, how you can come up with the numbers yourself,
what tools exist that I've built that are different from other tools,
why they're different, how the math works behind everything.
I just want to say thanks for having me, first of all.
Excited to be here.
Yeah, you know, it's funny that thread really picked up so fast.
And, you know, sometimes I have a post that just hits it,
the zeitgeist of something.
And it's pretty cool.
you know everyone got everyone got excited about this spreadsheet and so i thought we could spend
some time going through it all and really seeing how it all works you know because it's something
that really i think is on every bitcoiner's mind is like if bitcoin keeps appreciating forever
well when can i stop working a job because i have an asset that's producing money
you know and so so one big thing about the money printer and the way the money printing works is
is that it's like,
we have to think of the money printing
as like a game of Plinko.
You ever watch Prices, right?
Yeah.
And there's that game Plinko,
they drop like this big chip
and it ends up in a bucket at the bottom.
You've got to try to win a prize.
You're trying to drop it
in one of those buckets at the bottom.
Well, all the assets in the world,
which is basically real estate,
stocks, bonds, gold, and Bitcoin.
those are the biggest they're all at the bottom of this giant pyramid and all the money in the
world is trickling down into these assets the bottom you're spending money on your rent your
car your food and all this stuff and of course all the less expenses you spend your money on
the way down the more you can put into assets which grow in value versus shrinking in value
like your your expenses cost you money but your assets can actually make you money
And we explain all of that in our book. But that's kind of the basis of this calculator as well, because really the question of when can you retire really depends on how little you spend.
Now, you use an interesting price model because obviously it looks at the appreciation, so to speak, of Bitcoin, at least in fiat terms, you know, and obviously expenses and other things play a role in that.
but you use an interesting model.
And why don't you break down a little bit of that
and how you're looking at price projections into the future?
Because I have a little wrinkle in all of this
that I want to bring up, but I want to hear your thoughts.
Okay, good.
I'm excited to hear the wrinkle.
And I think the best way for me to describe it
is to show your chart, okay?
So I'm going to share my screen here.
And I want to show you the PowerLaw chart
and talk about this power law for a second.
So this is on the site B1M.io.
This is a model of the price of Bitcoin's growth over time.
And it's called a log log.
We can switch to a linear log here.
But it's essentially, it starts off exponential
and then slows down over time.
And this is the way that things in the natural environment
with natural limits, how they change and grow.
And I think because Bitcoin has the halvings
and also has the difficulty adjustment,
it functions more like a natural, like it functions more like something in the natural
world rather than something artificial like fiat money.
And so what we're seeing here is today, the power law model price is like, I don't know,
109.
Yeah, it's 108 right now.
And the current price is 114.
But according to the power law, it could be anywhere between 54 and 326.
But this line, if you took the data from the first year of math here from 2012 to 2013, you'd get the same line, basically.
It's almost the same exact line that we have today.
So it's really a strange phenomenon, the way this Bitcoin price is changing over time.
We can actually look at it into the future.
So if I keep going up this line, what this line shows is that in 2030, let's look at January 2030, the power law model price is 383.
But it could be as high as 1 million.
And it could be as low as 191.
So anywhere in that range is where the Bitcoin price will be.
But if we just take the model price alone and we chart that out, that's part of the basis for how we're calculating the retirement calculation.
So that's the core to it is this power law model that was discovered by this guy Giovanni Santostasi on Bitcoin Twitter.
you know and he's an astrophysicist so he looks at data sets where the data is changing at really
big rates you know like the growth of a star the growth of a star follows a power law a firework
does not follow a power law fire a firework is unnatural it's it's a brief very brief explosion
that happens but uses up all its fuel and it goes away a star slows down as its fuel starts to
decrease and it extends the life of the star so the star grows really fast and then starts slowing
down but it's still growing at an insane rate still burning insane amounts of energy and that's
what bitcoin is doing and this guy giovanni discovered it a few years ago and then fred my
my co-author on our book, like he found this through another friend and then popularized
it massively.
So that's the core to how we determine the price of Bitcoin in the future.
Now, here's my wrinkle for you, Ben, is I think, you know, you described two different
things, which I love, one of which is natural, right?
The star that is, you know, I guess like slowly kind of extending its life.
But the other is the firework where, you know, obviously it shoots off and then boom.
And one of which is manmade, one of which is not.
Obviously, fiat money, it's manmade.
So I think that with Bitcoin, even though it has this natural logarithmic function, it is scarce.
And we've never really seen an asset that is truly scarce that we can't just be like, okay, you know, maybe we could just build another house per se.
issue more bonds per se, do these other things in the, I guess, natural state of things, right?
It's just kind of artificially natural, so to speak. So I'm one to believe that maybe the power
law is a little bearish, which would actually probably help your model a little bit more,
where I think BlackRock's coming on, buying a bunch of Bitcoin, the ETFs inflows,
We're having all of these treasury companies now coming on. And, you know, I think it's just Michael Saylor alone has bought like 45,000 Bitcoin in the past like month or so, which is like 100 days worth of supply.
And so kind of these things that are somewhat natural with this logarithmic function cannot anticipate the amount of, you know, human, I guess, meddling, so to speak, coming into it with all of this capital sitting on the side.
So I think that in my opinion, this power law, they're great for now.
But as Jeff Booth says, all models are eventually going to be broken now.
I'd love to hear your viewpoint on that.
Well, I think a year ago, when we first were charting out the power law,
I did my first spreadsheet on the power law, I think in March of last year.
and it predicted the price was going to hit, you know, over a hundred thousand a year later.
And at the time I was like, I don't know. I mean, that seems like it's, it's too quick.
It's a hundred is going to like bounce right back down. But the thing is that as an asset
appreciates in value, the volatility goes down a lot too. So it's very unlikely we see another 80%
drop in Bitcoin price. And it's also very unlikely that we see an 80% gain in a very short
timeframe because of this. The line of the power law represents something that is also present in
psychology because it's actually way harder to hold Bitcoin when the price goes up really fast.
I can tell you from experience. I've held Bitcoin since, some of the Bitcoin I've held since 2013.
But I've sold so much over the years because I've sold, I mean, I've sold half of it a thousand dollars.
Because when the price went up double again, I was like, oh, man, this is great.
I doubled my money. That's a seriously good investment.
And if you think of Bitcoin as an investment.
That's the trick that you kind of get into because you're thinking about turning it back to cash.
But the point of the retirement calculator is not.
to try to figure out how much cash.
You only need enough cash to survive.
But realistically,
we all need to get as much Bitcoin as we can
and hold it for as long as we can.
So at the end of the day,
the only thing that matters is not the only thing.
Of course, there's other things in life that matter.
Family, having a home.
I mean, there's great parts of life besides Bitcoin.
But one of the most important things in life
is getting as much Bitcoin as we can have and never selling it.
And the way to do that is to borrow against it.
So it just sort of turns out that Bitcoin is the best collateral in the world.
Right?
So if we think about how borrowing works and the types of collateral that they're on,
the most borrowing in the world happens on real estate.
Right?
But the wealthy borrow against every type of asset.
They'll borrow against their wine collection.
They'll borrow against their art.
They borrow against, you know, their stocks.
They can borrow against their stocks.
Elon Musk, when he was going to buy Twitter,
needed to come up with something like $40 billion.
Well, he just borrowed a bunch against his Tesla stock.
And if he had sold his Tesla stock,
he would have missed one of the greatest wealth gains in history
because the stock, I think, tripled after that.
So by not selling, he was able to, even at, even at high interest rates really leverages his asset.
Now, I think that we never know exactly what's going to happen.
There's always a lot of thought and doubt about Bitcoin.
There's always going to be, it's not going to change.
and I think that you know the the the power law is is less of a law it's more of a trend really
is a way to think about it you know Matthew Mazinskas calls it the power trend which I really
which I really like because calling it a law sounds like well it can never be broken but
it's not so much of a how could I say this it's not so much of a price prediction as a measurement
and it's a measurement of two things it's a measurement of the trajectory of the price
and the volatility of the price so it can't really be broken is one thing and not like
stock to flow is a broken model it's broken because it predicted prices that bitcoin did not reach
but the power law represents a measurement of something fundamental
to adoption of technology,
to growth of things in the natural universe.
And so we'll get back to the retirement calculator in a minute,
but I think that,
I think the more that you read about
and understand the power law,
it's going to make a lot more sense to you.
You know, and I could spend an hour
just going through the math of it
and showing you how kind of that stuff works.
I know we want to talk about the lending stuff
or the retirement stuff.
So stay focused on that.
Yeah, you stole my thunder there with the lending stuff
because I mean, I think that was a part that you mentioned
that was very interesting, right?
I mean, I think right now Bitcoin's looked at
as the most pristine collateral.
And part of the thread that caught my eye here was,
you know, don't sell, you know, you can borrow against it.
And part of it, you talked about the depreciating APR
for Bitcoin lending and that collateral aspect.
So I'd love to hear you kind of dive into that, how you think that fit in.
Yeah, it's really interesting.
You know, the way that lending works is that there's money out there that's looking to earn interest, right?
Now, the banks take all of our money.
They take our money.
We put $100 in the bank.
They keep 10 of it, and they loan out 90.
And from that 90, they create something like $500 in interest.
You know, pretty amazing.
So they're just making money hand over foot from our money.
And it's a, you know, it's, it's a very strange system that requires the money printer to be constantly printing new money.
And a lot of that printing happens in the banks through the interest rates.
So the more loans that there are, the more, the more money that gets, end up being created.
And then, you know, the lower the rates that term, that makes the money.
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end up being created. And then, you know, the lower the rates that determine,
that makes the money grow faster because the higher the rates it grows slower in general
there's also things like stimmies that can happen that's huge you know the government printed i think
it's like 40 of all us dollars in two years during the pandemic so they basically doubled the supply
of dollars during that time which is why we had massive inflation now when
When Bitcoin has, when basically, as soon as Bitcoin, as soon as the ETF happened,
Bitcoin reached a new level of legitimacy.
Because all of these retirement funds and sovereign wealth funds could now actually buy Bitcoin.
I know they could have bought Bitcoin before on River or Coinbase or Swan or whatever,
you know different custodians but it didn't have the same integration into their accounting systems
and everything that bitcoin has now through the etf right or or mstr there's some place where you
can't buy the etf so you can only buy mstr but these things came along and had a whole new level
legitimacy to legitimacy to bitcoin and so now bitcoin's in a class of these other assets like
bonds stocks real estate and gold that people absolutely do borrow against and so the rates
that you can borrow at right now for bitcoin are somewhere in the eight to fifteen seventeen percent
range right you know and most of the most of the lenders are are centralized lenders who have
very big staffs very big compliance and legal staff and most of them are kind of like a glorified bank
you have to give your bitcoin to them you trust them with your keys and then they will
loan you money and holding your bitcoin as collateral and if the payments get missed or if
the value of the loan relative to the value of the collateral becomes too high it will get liquidated
they'll sell your bitcoin to pay off the loan right but what's amazing is imagine if that
collateral were a house and they had to sell your house to pay off the loan well first they'd have
to go inspect the house they'd have to stage the house they have to get it listed on the market
they have to hire a realtor the realtor has to show the house we're talking about a multi-month
process, even for a house is $100,000. Now apply the same logic to gold or stocks, some of them
might be easier to sell than others. But nothing even comes close to selling $100,000 on Bitcoin
anywhere in the world instantly. And that's why for lenders, Bitcoin's amazing collateral.
The first thing that lenders are going to think about, though, is, well, it's very risky,
because we would need to earn very high rates against Bitcoin
because it's very volatile.
But the historical volatility does not represent the future volatility
because as the asset grows in value, it gets harder to move.
Imagine a little boulder.
You got a little boulder like this,
you could throw it around pretty easily without a lot of force.
That's the way Bitcoin was like at $100 million.
dollars a hundred million dollars you know 10 20 000 could even move the needle a little bit here
and there's a multiplier effect of price movement because of the there's only today there's only
about six million bitcoin that's traded so only one third of all bitcoin is going to be traded
right now and that's going to keep going down as more people hold it on a more permanent basis right
So that causes the impact of incoming capital to have a higher impact on the price percentage-wise.
But in general, because it takes so much more money to move a trillion dollar asset by 1% than a $100 million asset by 1%, the volatility is going to go down.
And as the volatility goes down, the interest rates are going to go down.
because Bitcoin is going to be seen as the best form of collateral.
It's going to catch on.
Like, this is something I am certain about.
In 10 years, it will be widely recognized as the best form of collateral
because it's 24-7 liquid.
There's no jurisdictional limitations or requirements.
You know, if you own a house somewhere,
they could change a law in your city that affects the value of your home.
Or the government can decide you didn't pay your tax or we need the water on your land.
We're going to need to take your land.
We'll offer you a fair price for it or not, whatever.
You only own land in the US even at the grant of the US government.
So Bitcoin is something you can actually own as well.
So it's got all these properties that make it just absolutely amazing for lenders and for borrowers.
And what makes it great for borrowers is the fact that it appreciates at an average of 40% per year.
Now, with the 40% per year, though, explain the decaying a little bit deeper, though.
Because with this model, this thread that you put together, you have the decay of about 2% and that the debt will grow yearly, but the CAGR will go down.
So why did you pick that 2% number?
Well, look, actually what I did was this.
I said, here's the math for how I did the declining APR.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, one second.
The declining APR is, is basically you have a starting APR.
So if you see in my spreadsheet, there's a, you have to look at the screenshot of it,
but there's a sort of beginning APR and then there's a terminal APR.
And so we have to imagine that the APR begins at 15% and then it drops down to.
Yeah.
top there there's variables starting apr and then um you know a floor apr is what i called it on this
thing but the idea is that the apr begins at 15 and goes down to one over 40 years
and i do think interest rates are going to be going down towards zero in general
they really will be um and and bitcoin bitcoin lending rates will also be going down towards
zero because eventually 1% will be like amazing to earn for a lender. So that's the calculation.
There's sort of a linear regression of the decay. So it goes down just a little bit every year. It
doesn't go down 1% per year or 2% per year, but it goes down very smoothly. Now I could go down
way faster than that, by the way, and that would make my math even better. So it's, I think it's
pretty safe calculation right now another part of that calculation is it's called the um the safe
ltv right so there's a zone for everyone who doesn't speak finance talk ltv is loan to value
so when you get a loan there's some loan to value ratio of the value of your collateral to the amount
that you owe so if you have you know if you have a hundred dollars of collateral and a fifty dollar
loan, you have 50% LTV. So the safe LTV would be 25%. So if you have, let's say you have one
Bitcoin and you borrow $25,000, right? If your yearly expenses are $25,000, this is how the
calculator essentially works. Let's assume your yearly expenses are 25,000. You have one Bitcoin
today, you borrow $25,000. Great. Now, next year, you need another $25,000 plus inflation. So there's
some inflation number on my chart too. That says you can set it. What's the inflation rate for you?
Is it 5%? Is it 7? Is it 10? I don't know. It depends where you live in the world.
And depends what your sort of status in society is. If you are in the top 1%, you're going to be
experiencing a much higher inflation rate than people that are low down. Because the things that
you want to spend money on are going up in value way faster. You know, if you want to buy a Ferrari,
it's going up at 16% a year, right? But if you, if you live in your mom's basement,
the price of pizza is only going up like 4%. So, um, so you have very different,
depending on what you want, the inflation is going to change you differently, but you take
these things together and you have, and your expenses go up every year based on that inflation
rate. And that's how you sort of calculate where do I need to be in how much Bitcoin I have based
on Bitcoin's price going up, the cost of the loans going down, the cost of my expenses going up.
But we have these different, different things, different things, pulling vectors, pulling
different directions. And that's sort of the basis of how you, and then the number that really
matters is how much cushion you have.
So after your expenses, your debt on your, the cost of your debt on your loans
that keep stacking year over year, how much cushion do you have?
And it's interesting.
You start out, if you retired today, you'd start out with a bigger cushion.
It goes down a little bit towards 2030.
And the calculator on the calculator on the web that I made, which let me,
let me show you really quickly the calculator on the web, because I think it's
really so simple the way this web calculator works.
you go to b1m and click on this calculator if your monthly expenses are 10 000 and you have 10 years
to retirement you need one bitcoin and you can see year over year how that works on this chart
but you can also go in your advanced settings and choose a different starting apr floor apr safe ltv
so that's that that's at an ltv of of 30. an ltv of 25 you need 1.29 bitcoin so if you retire in
10 years and your monthly expenses are 10 000 then what happens is you have your yearly expense
of 10 000 goes up by um seven percent inflation yearly which i think is a reasonable inflation
right and you can see here at 2044 there would be one year with zero cushion but your cushion
starts out pretty high 300k 200k and then it goes up again later
so so that's kind of that's the that's the quick and dirty explanation of
the power law lending yeah i mean i think it's it's interesting because you you brought in a
couple different elements in here right and and part of it is the lending aspect and getting the
APR down? Because I think a lot of people neglect that, especially with these other retirement
calculators or people who are talking about Bitcoin and retirement in general. So when you're
looking at this, I guess just kind of explain why you decided this lending aspect of it as well,
just from kind of comparatively, there isn't a lot of models out there that account for that.
And, you know, I mean, I think a lot of Bitcoiners saw potentially, you know, when Mark Zuckerberg was looking to buy his giant mansion at one point in time, he was able to get a mortgage of like basically 0%.
So he would be dumb to not go all in on that.
So do you think that this would essentially change the shift of, you know, how Bitcoiners are looked at just because, you know, one, as Bitcoin's price appreciation, they're going to be more wealthy.
Thus, having this pristine collateral that essentially can be liquidated at the snap of a finger if necessary, would just make the Bitcoiners some sort of elite class at this point.
Man, it's really, I think to answer your question, one thing I want to address here is that one of my core beliefs about Bitcoin is that it's not just about number go up.
But because Bitcoin is the only asset that's not controlled by anyone that we can transfer completely peer to peer, it is ultimately going to be an important tool for freedom in the future.
Because in a way, where we're heading to is going to be very different from where we are today.
I think this was the last normal year.
This year was the last normal year.
The future is not going to look normal.
You know, we're heading towards a world where we combine with robots.
It's inevitable.
This bull run, you should focus on getting your Bitcoin in self-custody and off exchanges.
We saw what happened last time.
You saw FTX, Celsius, BlockFi all blow up.
But the one thing that stayed true was Bitcoin in self-custody.
This is why this bull run, I'm trusting Trezor, the longest standing hardware wallet in the game to store my Bitcoin.
Not only are they trusted for 10 years, but they have the slickest new hardware wallet that they just released, the Trezor Safe7.
You've heard the FUD about potential quantum computing.
Well, the Trezor Safe7 has the first audible secure element.
No other hardware wallet on the market has this currently, so this is why I am trusting Trezor.
You can go to the affiliate link down in the show notes or to trezor.io to go get yours today
because you need to be getting your Bitcoin off exchange
and really taking the power of Bitcoin
and taking your Bitcoin off exchanges into self-custody.
All right, enough from me.
Let's get back into the show.
Normal.
You know, we're heading towards a world
where we combine with robots.
It's inevitable.
And also robots are going to run everything.
So AI and robots are going to run our entire society.
We're going to live in sort of a communist run,
run communism run by robots you know because jobs are going to be
everyone's jobs are going to be replaced by by ai and by robots okay so in that future we end up
having to have government stimulus the printing is going to go crazy and um they're going to be
handing out ubi payments essentially to everyone that's going to be part of the government's job
But in that system, if you send money to the wrong person who's doing something the government doesn't like, for example, they will freeze your account without question.
And so in a world where we're living in this giant autocracy, which is part of its job is to maintain its power and make sure there's no dissidence, where they can limit our spending, like Bitcoin is going to be the only tool for freedom in that world.
and I'm guessing there will be some region of the world that will that will remain free longer
and so so I'm at the core I believe that bitcoin's about more than just number go up
but right now we do live in a society where we have to we have to work and we have to earn money
to pay for things in our lives and right now what's attractive about bitcoin to most people
is that it goes up in value every year that the thing that people are very Most people work for a living to earn money to pay for things that they want and to buy assets Right So the idea that they could put their money into Bitcoin and it grows faster than other assets is very appealing
And historically it does. So why do people want Bitcoin? Most people want Bitcoin because it goes up an average of 40 percent per year.
but but um i lost my trade of thought on this one but you know um it still feels like a very
risky investment for most people because of the huge drawdowns that can happen but if you have a
long time preference if you do not spend a lot of money and you can buy bitcoin and hold it for 10
years, even five, even three to five years, it's going to be, it's going to continue to
appreciate at record numbers, even slowing down over time as the power law shows.
And what you want to do is not sell your Bitcoin. So when expenses do come up for rent, mortgage,
car payments, all these things. Why would you sell your Bitcoin when it's your best appreciating
asset? And it's an important key to your future generations of being able to have some form of
freedom in a world that's run by robots. Pretty weird because you think that some digital money
would be somehow controlled by robots in the future, but it won't be. Very unlikely will not be.
so so bitcoin has this unique role and it's so important to not sell it that you really have to
figure out how to best borrow against it and in my opinion what you want to do is is try to use a
decentralized lending protocol and i've actually built one of these so i know what it's like
but there's there's like really only two or three decentralized protocols for lending
trusting our keys to coinbase kraken
unchained you know strike is basically just using a bank it's it's sort of using the same system
that bitcoin was meant to replace right whereas if you have a smart contract technology version
of that where you can still use native Bitcoin, not wrapping Bitcoin, but you can still use native
Bitcoin to get a loan. It's very good. So that's what I, that's why I recommend people go and try
and learn about even with a small, very small amount of their stack, you know, take, take 10%
of your money, go and try borrowing, see what it's like, you know, learn about how to do it,
learn about the pros and cons, learn about where your keys are. How are this, how is it secured?
if you can't understand the answer that stuff you should not use whatever platform it is if you can't
see your bitcoin in its own address you should not use whatever platform it is because things like
celsius and block five were were big lessons yeah i think i didn't have any money on those then but
i know people that had a lot of money on those and some of them ended up losing money even though they
got it off because they saw the warning signs they didn't take it off before this certain like um
period where they the government came and took their bitcoin from them essentially said hey you
actually need to give us some of that money back that you had on there because you pulled out within
this time frame when it crashed where we need some of that money back to pay off people who lost
money it's crazy so so that's that's kind of the rules of of lending you want to borrow against
your bitcoin but you don't want to do it in a place that's very complicated or where you um
can't see the Bitcoin in its own address and you can't explain how it works.
And you don't want to do, you also don't want to do, I mean,
you know, you don't want to do something that's, that's at a bank,
that the government or, or some power out there could seize or hack a centralized entity.
You know, there's different levels of risk, whichever protocol you choose.
On one side, you have to trust software.
on the other side you have to trust people but i think ultimately we're going to have to learn to
build and trust software to be able to survive in a world where software runs everything
you know yeah now this is this is interesting right because um you know obviously you've got
the the power law aspect of this whole model and you know kind of the depreciating apr
which would lower the volatility.
But I don't know, man, when you're talking about freezing bank accounts
and with things that have actually happened,
I feel like with a truly decentralized protocol with Bitcoin,
the more people kind of catch on, it's going to be an exponential growth.
So I think these kind of colliding powers are going to be very interesting to play out.
And I mean, I'm kind of, like I said a little earlier,
like with this exponential growth and exponential adoption do you think that you know with the
potential of this big print like laurence lapart is coming uh talking about uh and potential bigger
inflation numbers people are losing more faith in the dollar so they're going to be flocking to an
asset like bitcoin and granted i still think majority of people just don't understand uh but
when they start to catch on i think that's when things are going to get really interesting and
And, you know, not only this retirement calculator kind of makes it, I think it puts it into light, at least for me, like, all right.
You know, if you look at the general retirement account portfolios on average for somebody in the United States, like 401k balances, somebody, I believe from the age of like 25 ish to 35 is around 60 to $80,000 right now.
And then, you know, when you get to that 35 to 45, it's like 160.
Like, I don't know, it's more than doubled.
So, you know, if you look at it in that perspective, it's like, all right, well, it kind of changes the mindset of not only when can I retire, but the mindset of money where it's not this never ending rat race.
So that's where I think once we start to have some people really open their eyes to that, like, all right, it doesn't have to be the same way that we've been accustomed to our entire lives.
We could, you know, go travel in our 30s or 20s or whatever, as long as we start stacking aggressively for a few years.
And that shift, I think, would just kind of cause some rapid adoption.
um so would that throw a wrench in the model or do you think those are just all kind of variables
that that can be accounted for the model ultimately the model ultimately resent represents a line
so back to the power law the there's a model price line we're above that price line right now
but that doesn't mean the model is broken because there's all of all the model represents is a
statistical probability. And the bands that are the 2x or 3x or 4x bands that show how high Bitcoin
could go in a cycle or in no cycle, we might not be in any cycle at all. We might be in a super
cycle now. So if the price does not, if the price appreciates very rapidly, it's going to come down
very rapidly. That's almost a guarantee. And that's why that model line works kind of like gravity.
So I'm not saying that Bitcoin price couldn't go to $400,000 this year. It could. And on the
website, b1m.io, if you tap four times in the header, you can go into Josh Mandel mode.
And it's a 4X trend. So you can see the 4X trend line. And the model would still not be broken
Because ultimately, even if it goes up to 444 next month, which it could, Bitcoin could skyrocket because of these things.
Some people will sell.
Some people will sell at least some of their Bitcoin.
A lot of people sell.
If the price went to 444, a lot of people would sell.
And price would come back down to around $120,000 probably.
I mean, maybe it'll go lower.
It could even go way lower than that and then come back up again.
And the model would still be good.
because ultimately, if you look at the price history and how it goes around this line,
it's bouncing all over the place. But what happens is over time, that volatility is going down. So
it seems very unlikely to me that we're going to see a 4x in Bitcoin this year.
But the gains are still so impressive year over year. And they're going to continue to be
so impressive year over year. You really, Brandon, we really don't want, honestly,
We really don't want huge gains in one year on Bitcoin because that will make it way harder for people to hold Bitcoin.
And what we really want is a slow but steady and faster than everything else appreciation year over year.
That's very good.
And I do believe that's where we are.
Yeah, it's interesting because I think the narrative of this cycle is institutions starting to come on, right?
These Bitcoin treasury companies are starting to buy.
And these are the guys that are not really selling, right?
I mean, they're coming in, scooping up.
They have some sort of long-term strategy.
So unless the company goes belly up, it doesn't seem like they're going to be selling them.
Of course, Michael Saylor said he's taken his Bitcoin to the grave.
And then we also have potentially some governments starting to come in.
And, you know, with governments, everything is just very slow moving.
So how does this, I guess, behavior start to play out?
is in just your opinion,
do you think that it's just going to kind of weed out
some of the big whales who have maybe gotten in?
They want to just sell their Bitcoin,
go sip a pina colada and live on an island somewhere
and kind of enjoy the fruits of their labor.
And then that's when money just starts to circulate.
Is that kind of how you see it playing out?
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Let's get back to the show.
Live on an island somewhere
and kind of enjoy the fruits of their labor.
And then, you know, that's when money just starts to circulate.
Is that kind of how you see it playing out?
Well, I think what happens is that, you know, over time, there's all these different factors at play, right?
Like what you're correctly identifying in this, in our time together, even talking is a few things.
One thing is sort of government institutional adoption.
Another thing is the growth of the money supply over time.
And then we also have how moving into a multipolar world where the U.S. is not the hegemon and people don't trust the dollar anymore, how that's going to affect things.
There's also what I mentioned with AI and UBI coming.
Right. And so all of these factors are all part of Bitcoin's future trajectory to one million dollars and beyond.
and there's going to be forces pulling both directions very easy to see all the things that
can go right but it's very hard to see all the things that can go wrong unless you're my wife
she's really good at seeing that stuff all the time like she has like a psychic ability
to predict things that can go wrong even things that are really remote i remember one time she
told me i was like let's go to the neighbor's place while the baby's sleeping and go let's go
drink with our neighbor and she's like i can't leave because what if there was an earthquake
and i couldn't get back into the to our place like and i was like what if there's an earthquake
anything it's like a meteor hitting or something you know but like there's still some statistical
probability it could happen now with bitcoin there's some statistical statistical probability
that quantum will come along and break the whole thing or that satoshi will wake up and move his
coins or the max supply might change, you know, or, or maybe, maybe Bitcoin core version 30 will
cause a death, a bit, whatever. Like there's so much FUD all the time. And there's some statistical
probability of these things potentially happening, but it seems very unlikely to me. Right. So we
have all these different forces weighing in and playing on Bitcoin. Now, how much of a role does
this government adoption or institutional adoption play into Bitcoin, right? It's very hard to say,
like the U.S. government, excuse me, the U.S. government was supposed to have some kind of
strategic reserve this year, which is the talk of the election in my mind. I mean, I don't know,
my world, that's all people want to talk about is the Bitcoin strategic reserve. That's all I
heard about for literally six months from June until January. And, you know, then we had David
sacks coming in and and what happened with the strategic reserve literally nothing in fact what
trump said at some point he wants to have a reserve of ripple i mean like it was like he started
naming all these other coins like it was very strange it was definitely not a bitcoin strategic
reserve that he was thinking about at all now the big now the thing is of course the us government
is one of the largest holders of Bitcoin in the world already
because of the seizures that they've made over the years.
Right now, I think the first sovereign wealth fund was just last week.
It was, I think it was Lichtenstein.
It was Luxembourg.
Luxembourg.
I always get those two confused, honestly,
because they're both really little countries attached to France, basically.
But Luxembourg sovereign wealth fund is going to be allocating 1%.
So now if we think about the amount of money in these sovereign wealth funds and pension funds and.
Fidelity, you know, for example, when they start allocating, not if, but when.
It's a lot of money.
It's a lot of money. It's going to affect things massively.
you know um i don't know the exact number of other than the pension funds offhand but
a one percent allocation from any of these things based on my math writing this book is that any of
those things will get us to a million dollars just one percent from any of those alone will
get us to a million dollars in 10 years and so um you know i think we're going to go beyond a
million dollars in 10 years, honestly, but, but there's, there's, it's very
hard to estimate the, the negative factors.
Right.
And all of these things are definitely at play.
Exactly.
Like I love you have such a great picture of everything.
And, um, I think it's, it takes a lot of work to get to that point, man.
So good job Like really understand a lot of this stuff that has taken me I don know 10 years to get really down
I've just spent so much time researching Bitcoin and Satoshi and thinking about math and macroeconomics.
It's literally all we do here.
We just moved offices, so things are kind of crazy.
But yeah, I think, you know, in regards to the multipolar world concept, that's also one most interesting things to think about in the future is how the government is going to react to Bitcoin.
Yeah. And that's where I mean, to me, right, I don't have like a big economics training background.
Everything I've kind of learned is more self-taught.
And I think what kind of triggered it for me was just seeing like the GME, the GameStop craze in 2020.
Because prior to that, I was reading books like The Intelligent Investor and reading a lot of Warren Buffett.
Why were you interested in those topics?
Because, well, one, I was in engineering and I was in grad school.
I realized, hey, I've been a broke college student my entire life.
If now I'm going to actually start making some decent money, I should figure out what
to do with it.
So part of my orange pill story is I listened to Preston Pish's podcast, We Study Billionaires.
And he really opened my eyes on, hey, I'm looking at the evaluations of these companies
and nothing really seems like a good investment.
If you go and look at the way Warren Buffett describes the PE ratios back in the day and
all of these different things, he was able to find those, I guess, holes in the market
and able to buy in early and make a bunch of money based on that.
And then by the time I actually graduated and I started making somewhat of money,
I graduated December 2018, so I really had one year and a couple months before 2020
when things just got really crazy.
So everything that I was learning up to that point was like, okay, this makes sense,
this makes sense.
And then something just sparked.
And I mean, obviously, Preston orange pilled me a little bit before that.
So I had Bitcoin prior.
But, you know, that craze just made me realize, OK, you know, when we see a lot of this adoption and when people see holes in the market with the amount of money that just keeps getting dumped in and the volatility and the markets are just getting way more extreme.
So that's where I think, you know, as we see these, and it makes me a little bit more skeptical, I'd say, on like the models, just because as we see more players come in, bigger money come in, you know, before I thought the stock market could be a little bit more explained.
And then I realized, hey, everything's kind of manipulated at the end of the day.
And Bitcoin being that only truly decentralized asset and having the true fixed supply, you know, where it is verifiable, unlike gold, where, you know, you could have the paper gold and all of these other assets where, all right, you know, we have real estate, but we could just build up or we could just.
We will.
Yeah.
Right.
And we will.
You know, but we're not.
You know, it's interesting.
just want to interject one thing here no go ahead that this morning a friend of mine sent me this like
video of that app that you take a picture of legos have you seen that no okay so basically
legos you know these little building pieces you end up with like a bag full of them that are all
mismatched ultimately you have legos unless you're an anal lego builder if you're like a normal person
And you end up with a bunch of Legos with this app.
You can take a picture of those Legos and that then AI tells you what you can
build from that mess.
Now apply that same idea to a bunch of rubble on the street.
That's what robots are going to be able to do.
They're going to be able to reconstruct, construct and reconstruct from
materials that we have now, entire sky, right?
So, you know, high rises, the biggest ones in the world.
whatever buildings we have today, I'm in Santa Monica, Santa Monica is going vertical. Like
they're going to build an 18 story building right next to me where most buildings are only six
stories. The most we have here is like a six story building. Sometimes it's like a 10,
but 18 stories on this little residential street is going to happen this year. But when the,
when the robots come and start building, we're going to have much higher buildings
and they're going to be building like crazy. So, so real estate can grow this way, but also new
zoning. It's going to grow this way. In Hong Kong, they built a whole island out of trash to build on.
You know, they built a whole mall on it. Like real estate can and will continue growing. So
yeah, right now there's only so much Malibu coastline. But I mean, look at Dubai. They built
out like palm islands in the shape of palm trees and stuff. They drudged from the ocean floor.
So, you know, we're going to see amazing, amazing feats of engineering. Castles, pyramids, all kinds
of stuff is going to come back into style when robots are building and sculpting and so it's
just relevant what you were saying about like yeah today you know there's no there's no paper houses
there's some paper gold there's some paper bitcoin right maybe maybe restricting the price of those
things a little bit yeah yeah yeah that's why i think it is kind of like just an interesting
thought experiment that i keep just running through and on my own it's like okay you know
this model makes sense. And, and I mean, like I said, I think, uh, you know,
Preston said something once when he was talking to plan B prior to, you know,
that's Dr. Flow really breaking was like, all models are, are, uh,
or I think even plan B might've said it, but it was like, uh, you know,
all models are wrong, but some are very useful. And that's where I think like,
you know, this is like the way you're lining it out to me.
I do appreciate because you're, you know, you're not discounting all of this,
But I'm always like trying to look at it as like, okay, we're still at like maybe one to 2% of full adoption globally.
Well, we're actually at less.
We're actually way less.
I'll tell you where we're at.
Okay, let's hear it.
I'll tell you where we're at.
So based on my measurements, the amount of total money in the world today is about 300 trillion.
him so that includes 150 uh there's 150 trillion of sort of money like m3 money this is based on
measurements by this guy matthew musynskis on on on x the government stopped reporting the m3 money
supply because they didn't think it was useful or something in the u.s and other governments are
very opaque about it but musynskis does a lot of research on this money supply he's been doing it
for 10 years. And he's like, got amazing numbers on this money. So he estimates 150 trillion. I
think it's somewhere around that number. And then bonds are another 150 trillion.
So just Bitcoin as a percentage of money today, it's less than 1%. Okay. Yeah. Now we know that
the money supply grows at 7% per year globally. Some countries grow at faster rates. Some countries
grow at slower rates. China's at 10%. The US is at six, Europe's at six. The average is seven.
And the value of things relative to the money supply also changes a lot. The value of gold
relative to the money supply changes. It fluctuates. It doesn't follow a power law at all.
Bitcoin is the only thing that follows a power law relative to the money supply. It's the only thing.
and you can see all this on b1m you can explore the different tabs and kind of see that stuff and
the deeper you look at this power law stuff the more you realize well bitcoin's this very unique
asset you kind of feel it already but the power law describes that thing it's not a model that
breaks or doesn't it doesn't work or doesn't work it it only doesn't work if bitcoin fails completely
really it sort of accounts for the growth so you know but you were also i know you're mentioning the
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Back to the show.
You know, but you were also,
I know you were mentioning the Shiller capes
when you were looking at stocks.
And that's something else we looked at
when we were writing Bitcoin 1 million
is that the Shiller cape is like the highest it's ever been.
So it's the idea of the Shiller P ratios
is that we're looking at the price relative to earnings, right?
Of these stocks.
And this is what Warren Buffett would find
and other smart investors in the future.
This was part of the fundamentals model of investing in stocks, right?
Where you have a company that has some earnings potential
and current earnings,
and then they have a price of their stock relative to those earnings.
and as of right now this price to earnings is the highest it's ever been
and it's only been growing so for the past 15 years i have a chart in this book
it's just been going skyrocketing up that little dash line is the trend line of it
and so we're basically at an all-time high in valuations of stocks you know what else
at an all-time high the price of median home to median income in the united states
also at an all-time high even though housing supply is at an all-time high we have more houses
per capita than we've ever had but also the price of those has gone up in the past 15 years from
it used to be 4x the median income so if the median income was 100k just for math sake i'm
assume 100k median income the median home price was 400 000 right now if the median income is 100
the median home price is 750 000 it's almost doubled in 15 years so there's something about
our system that is cheap and i've been wondering why is this the case why does it feel like the
odds are stacked against everyone you know and the answer to that really comes down to this plinko
That money is all flowing into assets.
It all ends up in assets because assets appreciate at a higher rate general than inflation, than the money printer.
I'm saying generally because there's one asset that does not.
Do you know what that one is?
Bitcoin.
No, yes, but in the negative way, it's bonds.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, bonds.
Bonds only work when the value of everything else goes down.
So if we have a year where everything else goes down in value,
that's a year where bonds can win.
And we've seen that historically.
I think it was in 2011.
That's the only year in the past 15 years that bonds have won.
Bitcoin's won 8 out of 10 past 10 years in terms of year-over-year growth.
Gold won one year, and bonds won one year.
Gold might win this year.
It might be a winner.
Or Bitcoin might jump up by the end of the year.
We don't know.
It's very hard to predict these things.
And the power law does not make any predictions about it, just a measurement.
So, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because, like, I mean, Mark Moss had a great presentation about Bitcoin starting to take up the $300 trillion bond, Mark Moss.
Oh, Mark Moss, yeah, I love his stuff, yeah.
Yeah, so he had a great presentation about Bitcoin taking over the $300 trillion bond market and the $145 trillion fixed income market.
And then if you look at even like the Wells Fargo CEO came out and said the products that MicroStrategy, Strategy B now is starting to take up with like StrikeStrive, all of these different financial assets, they're starting to dig into a lot of those markets.
So I think it's just a matter of time before Wall Street starts to see all of these other assets and realize, all right, well, why would I put my money into the S&P 500, for example, when compared to Bitcoin, it's just losing value.
And I think the other unique thing, too, is if you map out the M2 money supply to the S&P 500, I believe since the year 2000, it's either basically just about even or even down.
uh so you know if you look at it from like an inflationary perspective you know the way that
it's it's looking at it it's basically the s&p 500 is just breaking even and another interesting
thing that you know yeah you lined out the pe ratios and i think strategy is really going to
uh i guess like shed some light on this especially with the new fasby ruling because strategies uh
what is it a PE ratio I believe is that like 4.2 or 4.5 after the last earnings and so it was like
13th in revenue like you know top 100 in market cap and then like 498th in PE ratio in the the S&P
500 or the top 500 companies uh so it's like the the it's still from where it's at is just extremely
undervalued. And then now we're having so many treasury companies come online that, you know,
one, I think the companies that have no underlying business, they're probably, you know, there's
probably some of those that are going to blow up and these are going to be some of the potential
black swans. But eventually every business is going to need to put Bitcoin on their balance
sheet to kind of just keep that, you know, cashflow and keep everything steady over time.
So that's where I think like just these adoption curves, it's really hard to just nail one thing down because I do think that there's going to be some events like unforeseen, maybe like an FTX type collapse for some major players.
But there's always just these new buyers. And that's where I think it is getting a little interesting. And everybody always says, you know, this time is different.
But over the weekend, too, we saw, you know, the biggest liquidation event in quote unquote crypto history.
Of course, Bitcoin was was lumped into that.
But, you know, with all these short sellers and everybody kind of coming out of the woodworks, we still held above that 100K mark.
And, you know, we dropped like 12 percent and everybody was like, oh, Bitcoin.
I mean, I got text messages.
What's going on with Bitcoin?
but that 12% drop immediately got scooped up by a lot of these big players.
And the ETF inflows this morning as we're recording it on the 13th were
extremely high. So that's where I think, you know,
you're right on the volatility, maybe on the downward side,
but I think the upward trajectory, maybe I'm just a moon boy,
but the upward trajectory here is like,
we have so many people just waiting to buy that once they see this dip,
the more people that understand.
And that's what we're waiting to buy at 10,000.
They're waiting to buy at 100,000.
That's they may not buy until 200,000.
And when they buy 200,000, other people
are going to be selling, you know?
So yeah, that's fair.
You know, I think the market dynamic of big
Bitcoin is so difficult to understand, so complex because there's never been anything in the world like it that trades 24-7 anywhere in the world.
And that has such huge liquidity. I mean, it's really amazing what Bitcoin has become.
And I think that it's still very hard for people to understand.
Even though they don't really understand stocks that well, they can conceptually, they get it because their parents were into it.
And so, you know, there's a there's sort of a.
There's a generational shift that's happening in some ways that's causing
Bitcoin adoption to go up, people who grew up in the digital age, you know, people like us, we.
We're kind of the last bridge before we had no Internet when we were kids and and I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you didn't have Internet when you were a kid at some point.
And we then Internet existed.
We're the last generation to have that happen.
the future generations all digital they just they completely only think of digital world and
you know our children will grow up in a world where where all they have is ai they're gonna
be exposed ai from the time they're born basically and so um in that world
bitcoin becomes more of a normal thing it's less of a niche strange digital thing that people don't
understand right so part of this is also that decisions you were you were talking about how
um or we were both talking about how investment advisors in the future are going to be
having to recommend bitcoin for companies for individuals whatever but imagine that also
all the money in the world 10 years from now is going to be managed by ai not by people
it's already occurring i mean everyone's using chat gpt to make their financial decisions already
help me weigh out these options let's talk about you know like whatever you ultimately humans are
the decision makers still but ai is advising and when what do you think ai is going to recommend
people put their money into yeah once we get a good ai it probably will just say hey invest in
the best performing asset since it's been as ai first to read more evidence like this
this book is like a 360 degree angle or every angle of what what you could think about bitcoin
in the future and we also we have a chapter predicting that in here too what happens yeah
let's dive into it tell us a little bit about the book um and uh yeah the purpose behind writing it
and give us a little bit of, yeah, maybe a sales pitch here of why we should read it.
Well, I'll tell you.
So first of all, I've been researching Bitcoin and Satoshi for 10 years.
Really not just thinking about it but reading all of Satoshi posts and emails reading the code analyzing early versions of the code base I became kind of obsessed with Bitcoin in 2014
And so then that kind of led to writing this book last year.
So I wrote a book last year called The Big Bitcoin Book.
That's like an art book about Bitcoin.
Have you ever seen it?
Yeah.
Fred was actually on the show and showed it.
Oh, he showed it to you.
Yeah.
Anyways, it's got really beautiful charts.
and this is relevant because there's a page in this book.
We cover all the things that came before Bitcoin,
all the people that built things, what were they
and how are they relevant to Bitcoin or not?
And you can kind of open any page in here
and find something interesting.
There's Starkness, good friend of mine.
But there's one page in here in particular
that I just kept showing to people.
And it's a page about what asset do you put your money into?
Right?
And you kind of look at stocks, bonds, real estate, gold, and Bitcoin.
And we look at a 15 year timeframe.
I love this 10 to 15 year timeframe because it's something that people can absolutely wrap their heads around.
You know?
So anyways, there's one page in here about that.
That page was the page I kept talking to people the most about.
I would like, let me have to show you this page in my book.
This will really explain it to you because my friends are like, I don't get Bitcoin.
Look, I invest in real estate, man.
And I'm like, yeah, but think about it in a different way.
Let me just show you how real estate could look in 15 years or 20 years or 10 years even.
And so that's what sort of turned into this book.
One or two pages in that book were a page we were talking about all the time.
And we realized that we needed to build a book that contains all of the tools and arguments,
mathematically and logically looking into the future and really talking about the future of
Bitcoin, not the past. And so we have 21 chapters in here. That's all about the future of Bitcoin.
First, we talk about sort of the base models, the Bitcoin power law, the money printer,
inflation. Then we go into stocks, bonds, real estate, gold, the ETF, MSTR and Bitcoin treasury
companies, BitBonds, stable coins, how those are a path to Bitcoin. Then we talk about scaling,
fast Bitcoin. And then we talk about the apex predator. So, so we're, we're, we're kind of
promoting this idea of Bitcoin being a shark here, this big orange shark. And, you know, that's a big
part. We're going to have something really fun at our event for that. But we have AI and Bitcoin,
the quantum risk government's psychology of holding, which is sort of how do you make it
through these market cycles when, when they occur, they're big booms and bus Kelly
criterion, which is a, which is a rebalancing, uh, thing that was developed at
bell labs, how you, how do you choose how much to allocate to an asset, depending
on volatility and then we going to do a big one back loans a whole chapter on loans in here big one 1 million Bitcoin 10 million is the final chapter I tell you the final chapter of this If you only read one chapter that the one It so compelling
It's so interesting.
You can start there if you want.
You don't have to read this book in order.
But it is an amazing story that begins with Hal Finney predicting the $10 million per coin in 2009, right?
It's amazing.
So anyways, I'm really excited about the book.
I'm really excited about giving everyone these amazing tools to convince themselves and convince other people about why they need to hold Bitcoin.
Yeah, I'd love to hear it.
And then you mentioned your event you got going on.
I know this will probably be released a little shortly after, but tell us a little bit about that.
Yeah, we have this unconference event we do in Santa Monica.
We did it last year.
We're doing it again this year.
we have 200 people come out no cameras no photos no streaming just conversation so
it's really meant for like a crowd that's very private that doesn't want to be publicly
associated with bitcoin for example but they're interested about bitcoin most of the people who
come have gotten to bitcoin only in the past sort of five years and so it's not like an og crypto
thing you know there's none of those people most people are just people with real jobs real careers
you know traditional jobs and careers let's say a lot of retired guys and women who are
very interested in bitcoin interested in learning more about bitcoin interested in talking to
other people that are very into bitcoin so it's a bitcoin only a little unconference here in
santa monica that's one day only fully catered very private and we have some special guests who
come in that are not advertised ahead of time and it's all about just that one day and connecting
and having really great conversations about bitcoin so it's called bitcoin alpha okay great
so what was the motivation behind this and uh i know you said you can't mention any speakers but
obviously you'll be there um so anybody that you can uh well the schedule is actually visible for
anyone to see we don't have speakers per se okay we just have sessions and the way it works is that
there's someone who leads the session like i'm going to leave a session called um self custody
or self-destruct, which is very much about the future of why holding your own keys and
holding your own coins is really important to not just you, but to future generations
of your family, that you train them how to hold onto those keys outside of the system.
And so I'm going to do a session on that where I'm going to talk for the first 10 minutes
and then everyone's going to be able to engage.
We'll have 40, 50 people in a session, or maybe as few as 10.
And everyone will be able to have a really great conversation about that topic.
And whoever's leading the session becomes sort of the moderator of it.
We got great people leading sessions They going to be really amazing You would be incredible if you were going to come You could do a really great session We have
some different hosts of different podcasts
and stuff coming. Some people that aren't
even publicly big Bitcoiners are going to come
and do a session, I think.
It's cool. It's a really exciting little event for
people in the U.S. to come to
where you don't have to leave the country or you might be able
to walk there. We had a guy come last year
who paid him Bitcoin, signed up under a
big name and came and introduced himself to me as an alias. I think not his real name, you know,
he was just like, here's the first Bitcoin event I've ever been to. I've been in Bitcoin for 10
plus years, but I just have never wanted to come to events. I would have had to travel.
I would have had to reveal my identity. And this, this one's so cool because no one's even taking
pictures. I really appreciate that. And I was like, wow, that's, that's, that's, that's pretty
cool. I love that story, you know? So, so that's why we do it. We do it because we're here in Santa
Monica and we want to have a place.
We want to build a community here.
You know, we, we talked to Matteo Pellegrini a ton.
He comes over to our office all the time.
And we love that what he's doing with orange black.
We've kind of made the event spot.
You know, we have like, we don't sponsor it.
We have like some exhibitors and we're using orange pill for our chats.
And we use orange pill, like blast out things.
So I love orange pill out.
I love community building.
And this event is such a great human event.
so that's what yeah 100 well yeah now i've got fomo man i've uh i'm actually traveling to the
great white north here i'll be in i'll be in canada but maybe uh maybe in the future we'll
have to you guys will have to let me know maybe i'll make a trip out to cali and uh yeah we do
another one yeah they they're amazing we probably will continue doing them but we don't commit to
it very far in advance so yeah i hear you well cool man i really appreciate your time and i feel
like this was a great conversation. We'll maybe have to have you on here in maybe a few months
down the road, but why don't you tell people where they can find the retirement calculator,
the book, and more about you? Definitely. I think the best place to go is b1m.io.
That's got links to everything on the about page. You can find me, my Twitter account or
extec.com account. That's where I live most of the time. You can DM me. My DMs are open.
I try to answer them when people write me like you did.
And yeah, the retirement calculator is on B1M.
The links to the book are on B1M.
And that's my new home over there.
Perfect.
Well, I'll put that in the show notes.
Everybody go check it out.
Check out the retirement calculator.
I think it's great.
It really opened my eyes.
And I think it was a unique spin to everything.
So Ben, thanks so much for coming on.
And man, I really-
Thank you for having me.
This is awesome.
Yeah, appreciate it.
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