We get a 10x in Bitcoin over the next seven, eight years.
That's nothing like they have experienced up to now.
If Powell comes out this week and he's tremendously honoured
and he does not keep the door open for a rape cut,
the OGs, the whales that have been around for a long time,
I think some of them want to remain in Bitcoin,
but they want to get a little bit more out of it.
The way they do that is the ultimate end game is to...
You're going to see a drawdown in the market.
That's my opinion.
I believe it's pretty obvious, though.
protect your treasury not by buying bonds but by buying bitcoin because bonds are being melted away
with extreme inflation there's a long long runway here of for bitcoin and a multiple that return i
believe what's up guys before we get started i've realized that over 50 000 of you guys keep coming
back for every single episode and while i'm eternally grateful for you guys to keep coming
back. I've realized that 79% of you guys are not subscribed. So I have one small ask before we get
started. If you guys could hit that subscribe button and hit that like button to help send
this interview and many more to the stratosphere, it would be greatly appreciated. All right,
enough from me. Let's get into the show. Bing bong. I am back with another edition of the
State of Bitcoin podcast where I've got the man, the myth, the legend, recurring guest,
James lavish in the house. And I think this is the perfect time to get James on the show
because with your Wall Street experience and the fund, all of the businesses that are going on,
it seems like the Bitcoin treasury companies are the new wave. But we have a little bit of a wrinkle
here right now where Bitcoin just smashed a new all-time high and then creeped back a little bit.
But these treasury companies are not performing as well as one might have thought in the past.
So, James, what is going on with these treasury companies?
Is it all over?
Well, first of all, thank you for having me here, Brandon.
Always good to talk to you.
And even though you're an Aggie, we're going to put that in the backseat for a little bit.
But I may troll you.
Already starting with it.
so um yeah you know there's look there's a lot of stuff that's going on and really a lot of stuff
that's not going on and through my career um you know i've spent 30 years watching this on wall
street every single summer we get to the same spot where it's just you know you call it the
summer doldrums whatever um people are off they're on vacation they're in europe they're in the
They're in the Hamptons.
They're down on the Cape.
They're just not paying attention.
And they're kind of unplugged at the end of the summer here.
I mean, we're in the depth of August.
I'm in Vegas, and it's so abusively hot outside that you're basically, you know, if you're still in Vegas, then you're working on stuff.
But everybody else is, they're in California.
They're in Colorado.
They're in Utah.
they're just not around. So, I mean, my neighborhood is a ghost town right now.
But so that's kind of, that's a big part of it. So a big part of what you're seeing is these big
moves that are on light volume. And so what we see is somebody who goes and wants to, you know,
build up a big position, they're going to have to, they're going to have to move the stock or
the Bitcoin price or the treasury price, because there's not a lot of, there's not a lot of volume
out there. So this weekend and into today, we're seeing this, these, you know, large enough moves,
multi-percent moves in Bitcoin. Sounds like a lot of $3,000, but it's really only two and a half
percent, not that big of a deal for Bitcoin. But there's not a lot of volume, Brandon. It's like,
It's more of a buyer strike than a tsunami of sellers.
So that's one thing.
This is a big week.
Politically, you've got Trump just had basically every European official leader in his office, in a semicircle around his office,
called into the principal's office to negotiate a deal for a peace deal for Ukraine.
And he doesn't want to ceasefire.
wants a peace deal. And so, you know, that's, that's a big, that's an overarching kind of
thing that's going on politically right now. While you've got financially, you've got the,
there's so much uncertainty in the markets financially. I wrote about this this past
weekend in my newsletter that, you know, this is a big week for the Fed. Why is it a big week for
the Fed because this is Jackson Hole week. This is the week where they have the economic symposium.
And this has grown from this small little invite only little gathering as kind of like a place for
Fed officials and central bankers and some of the bankers and leaders to get together and talk about
where the economy is and what they think the policy ought to be going forward and kind of
maybe float some ideas, bat them around. Now it's, it's an absolute circus. It's a zoo.
You've got everybody coming in from around the world that descendants, this little,
you know, city in Wyoming. And, and it's become like the ultimate boondoggle for a lot of them.
But for one person in particular, it becomes their legacy, you know, or their chance to cement their
legacy and that's chairman powell and so this is the last time he gets to speak at this conference
and what it is is they're out there in jackson hole wyoming it's kind of sleepy it's western
you got barbecue you got fly fishing you know and uh and it used to be that the the reporters would
go there and they would try to get some more down-to-earth commentary from these officials
and like maybe catch them off guard maybe or less guarded maybe right so it's not like like they're
trying to trick them they're just they're less guarded in what they say whatever but it's not
like that anymore um you know he's not on a podium he's not at an official press conference but he
does have an official um press appointment on friday morning where he talks to them about what
occurred throughout the week. And believe me when I say that every single investor who's in the
office and not on the Cape and not in the Hamptons and not in Nantucket, and they're not in Colorado
and California, they're actually paying attention and they're hanging on every single syllable
that he utters. And the reason for that is that we've had a lot of conflicting economic data over
the last number of weeks, we had massive job revisions from the BLS, which ultimately resulted
in Trump getting pissed off and firing the head of BLS. We had a kind of a benign CPI number.
We had a massive surprise in the PPI, which people are attributing to tariffs.
and then we had some really strong retail sales numbers.
And so the employment's getting softer,
unemployment's rising, yet prices are still coming.
They're staying in a range
that the Fed is getting more comfortable with
around that 3% range.
And now you've got, then you've got this PPI number,
which is the producer price index,
which means that prices of goods for wholesalers have gone up.
And that means that eventually what you would expect is that that that rise in prices will be passed on to the consumers.
It'll come in the CPI eventually.
And and then you've got the retail sales numbers, which is like, is this because you have these very strong demographic,
a wealthy demographic, an older demographic, whether it's the top 1% or it's just the boomers
that are still spending? Or is it also YOLO? Charge it up, put it on credit cards,
and you're seeing credit card rates and delinquencies rise. Not the interest rates,
but the amount of usage. And so what is it? Is it people are just like, well, screw it. I'm never
going to be able to buy a house. I'm Gen Z. I'm not going to be able to, um, put enough money away.
So I might as well just spend it on this trip or this vacation or go to Vegas or whatever. Um,
which actually we're not seeing them come to Vegas. That's another, that's a whole nother
category. The, the casinos here have completely annihilated themselves with their excessive
charges on everything. They upcharge on everything, even like $25 bottles of water in your hotel room.
like absolutely insane. So, but so that's the question. People are like, all right, where,
where are we economically? And the, by and large, the, the, the, what people, investors are coming
to the conclusion of is that the Fed's going to capitulate. They're going to lower rates here in
September in just a few weeks. They're going to, in just about three weeks, they're going to lower
rates and by 25 basis points. If you look at Fed Funds futures, it shows about an 85% probability
of that happening is that's what investors believe. At least that's how they're hedged.
And so now you've got Powell and what does he say? What does he say this week on Friday?
Is he hawkish? Does he continue to hammer on the point that we're data dependent?
does he concede that we're making strong headway in inflation and we're not as worried about that?
We're now turning our attention over to the unemployment situation. Because if he does say
that, then that means that they're not going to worry about the inflation. That's kind of in check,
but we're more worried about this, which means that we need to get closer to the neutral rate,
which would not be expansionary and it wouldn't be contractionary. Like it would be kind of the
neutral rate, which we're clearly well above that right now. And so the question is how,
what words does he use and maybe what words doesn't he use in order to describe what he believes,
where he believes we are. Now, Brandon, I think he's comes at this in a way that
solidifies his legacy. This is the last chance he gets to be, to give his, you know, kind of
off the cuff, um, a little bit, um, less formal, informal setting of, Hey, how did I do over my
tenure, uh, as chairman of the fed, because this is his last shot at that. And so this is where he
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with Trump, you know, ushering him into that building and, you know, embarrassing him with
the way he's got that hard hat on. He just looks like a little boy over there next to him and
pulling out the paper and, you know, as if he's like the, again, the principal
admonishing his student, you know. I think regardless of all that noise, I think that
Powell wants to solidify his legacy that he got the job done. He did not let inflation rage out
of control, although it did rage and it got near, nearly got out of control. Um, and it was because
of what the fed did. Let's make that clear. They caused this problem, but he did put the fire out
and he wants to cement his legacy there. Now the question is what you, what words does he use to do
that and you know i believe that he's going to come out and he's going to say that we're that
we've uh we're getting comfortable with the trajectory of inflation we're more concerned
about jobs which means that it opens the door for a 25 basis point cut in september which is a really
big deal for stocks and risk assets and and things like uh bitcoin and gold because it's an expansion
some liquidity, basically, you know, you make the cost of capital lower, which is good for
those kinds of assets and securities. And so, but I do believe he leaves the door open.
And what you're seeing right now is some uncertainty around how he's going to come
out this week. What kind of numbers are still coming? Because we still have another CPI,
another PPI, another PCE. We got more unemployment numbers between now and the next September
meeting and he could change his mind like that and so there's probably some uncertainty going on and
bitcoin's definitely sniffing that out and getting a little nervous here again i'm very light volume
that's a long answer to your question but that's why where i believe we're at right now in the
general market yeah and that those are all great points and and i want to dive into a little bit
more about jerome powell and in the fed right because i mean trump has basically been yeah like
you said almost like bullying him to try to get him to lower interest rates for a while
and powell's been i guess to a certain extent holding steady just because his belief has been
like inflation is not under wraps and you know depending on what data you look at you can find
essentially whatever you want to see in this data right i mean you you named a few of these numbers
we've seen a massive revisions in the jobs market but on the flip side of things like the s p 500
Bitcoin, like everything in the market is seeming to do all right, hitting new all time highs and kind of having this pump here.
But then, you know, the consumer looks to be struggling.
And then CPI, you know, seems to be doing OK at that 2.7.
We're staying underneath that three range.
So how would you categorize it?
Do you think that we're kind of in this space where we essentially, you know, we're OK?
We have inflation somewhat under control.
It's not going and spiraling out of control.
And we need to lower interest rates in order to, I guess, make the economy a little bit more healthy.
So this data isn't just so conflicting.
Or is there something deeper underneath the hood here where, you know, maybe cutting interest rates might be a bad thing?
Yeah, I think personally, from what I'm seeing, I think that the economy is rolling over.
that the jobs numbers were terribly inflated by fiscal spending by the Biden administration hiring, you know, millions of people.
And so I think that that has kind of covered up this, what could have been a recession last year and the role over the economy here.
And so the people losing their jobs, it happens so rapidly, Brandon, that that's why you have something called the SOM rule.
The SOM rule says that if you get over, if the unemployment rate rises more than a half a percent from its lows, and there's more math to it, but that's just oversimplifying it.
But for all intents and purposes, that means that the SOM rule is tripped.
That means you're already in a recession and it jumps from there.
It doesn't just go to 4.3%.
It goes 5, 6, 7, 8%.
Like it happens so quickly and you see it in all the recessions.
You can just go chart out unemployment against recessions.
You can see how quickly it happens.
And so I do believe we're rolling over.
I do believe that interest rates are too tight and we do need to lower them soon.
And what we seeing in pricing is it difficult to figure out for a number of reasons You had a lot of chatter about it and a lot of noise from mainstream media specifically around tariffs
and how tariffs are going to be inflationary. And I think that scared people into buying the
things that they needed to buy, wanted to buy in the first quarter, in the first half of this year.
big things. iPhones, you know, there was talk about how iPhones could double or triple in price
if Trump insisted on bringing all the manufacturing back to the United States
and levying massive tariffs on Apple. We saw that that was avoided, that, you know,
Tim Cook went into the White House and conceded they would be
specifically building parts of iPhones here and bringing that back on shore.
But people bought iPhones. They went out and bought washers and dryers. They bought cars
because they're worried about these tariffs that are being levied on them. And so some of this could
be a one-time pass-through. Also, producers went out and bought a bunch of goods to make sure that
they were able to get the hard materials, the raw materials to make whatever they need to make
for the consumers. And so there was, again, just the demands spiked a little bit in the first half
of the year. How much of that has impacted pricing? It's hard to say. The second thing is,
even if it does impact pricing, even if tariffs do impact pricing negatively and prices rise,
I believe that would be a short-term one-time deal. It's not like you would have ongoing
3.5% inflation and a spike of inflation ongoing because of tariffs. It would be a one-time 3.5%
back down to wherever it was headed after that. It's just a blip according to the tariffs.
It'll be difficult to see that because these tariffs are being kind of doled out along the way.
So it won't happen in just one quarter or one print, but it'll happen over a series of them and then that's it.
So it still has to do with the economy ultimately and how well the economy is doing and how much money supply is out there and chasing after these goods.
And so I don't believe that structurally tariffs will long term raise and keep raising inflation.
inflation. It doesn't make sense to me mathematically. But I do believe that we
need to start lowering rates. And the reason for that is the Fed keeps saying they're data
dependent. They say it over and over and over and over and over. They hide behind this.
We're data dependent. We're data dependent. We're data dependent. And then you see certain data and
you're like, well, you don't seem to be depending on this data. Number one, you're picking and
choosing. Evidence of that is right before the election, the Fed lowered rates by 50 basis points
there in that, in that September, before the election, there was really, it wasn't warranted
to, to lower them 50 basis points. They might've been, unless you expected them to keep lowering,
if they're going to lower by 50 basis points, the expectation is 25, the next one, 25, the next one,
then maybe pause. You don't just lower 50% of 50 basis points and pause. That was very odd. It's
not, it's pretty uncharacteristic for the history of the Fed to do something like that. It was pretty
political, obviously. Whether they were getting tremendous pressure from Elizabeth Warren,
who had a big voice before the election, it's kind of quieted it down quite a bit because
people are seeing through her nonsense, but, and how much it cost, how many votes it cost
the Democrats for her to be anti-crypto. But it was clearly political. And for the Fed to claim
they're not political, they can't bend to the pressure of Trump now. So that's clear too.
So however, the situation we're in, I think that the data is giving Powell enough air cover,
especially on the employment side, that he could ease 25 basis points. And it's not that he's
giving in to Trump, if he was giving it to Trump, he'd ease 50, you know, because that's what
percent just demanded, uh, in all, for all intents and purposes. Again, he didn't tell him to do that.
He said that the models are showing that we're 150 basis points at a point, like 1.5% above
neutral, which I think is aggressive. I think we're maybe, maybe 1% above neutral, but
regardless, whatever models you're using, we are above and we could ease. But then I think that
it's time. And so the markets are starting to tell you that. And the stock market will suffer.
If Powell comes out this week and he's tremendously hawkish, if he's terribly hawkish
and he does not keep the door open for a rate cut, you're going to see a drawdown in the market.
That's my opinion. I believe it's pretty obvious, though.
So but I think Bitcoin and some of the tech stocks are getting nervous here.
You had not great earnings this morning from some of the tech leaders.
And, you know, and so the queues are off and the S&P is kind of dragging a little bit and Bitcoin is leading the way.
It continues to be the tip of the risk spear.
spear. I don't believe it should be, but it is. And we just have to recognize that. People have
to get their heads around that, especially the maxis who I agree with them that it shouldn't be,
but it is right now because it's considered that way. And it's going to continue to trade that way
until further notice. And so that's kind of where we're at.
So it seems like everybody's just seemingly waiting for, I guess, maybe this Jackson Hole
prior to the rate cut in September, if that even occurs.
I mean, who knows at this point?
And the other data that's coming out along the way, right?
Yeah, and I want to dive into that because you said that the Fed has always come out
and said that they're very data dependent.
But the revisions and if you look at the way CPI has been calculated,
like one of my favorite websites is govflation.com.
It shows how CPI used to be calculated back in like 1982, I think, which was like the first revision post gold standard.
And, you know, the gap in between that just keeps, you know, rising and rising.
And, you know, it seems like CPI, they're always excluding food and energy and same with PPI.
So when a Fed is data dependent, and it seems like a lot of this data is either collected by surveys or leaving certain things out, changing the baskets of goods for CPI, how reliable do you feel that this data is?
And do you think that that's the right approach?
I think it's terribly unreliable, as we've seen, and it's lagging.
And so the problem here is that you've got data that's lagging, and then you've got a Fed that lags the data.
So they miss the mark every time they overshoot. But you've also heard Powell say that he'd rather overshoot on tightening than on loosening because it's kind of like, you know, if he's if he's loosening too much that inflation.
could the, the inflation could rate that fire could rage out of control. It's very difficult
to get that back in line as we've seen. I mean, it's just the law of physics. Um, it's very much
like a wildfire. Uh, but if, if you print too much money, which they did and we saw happen
and then they scrambled and in, in a near panic to get the, to get that under control by
not only implementing QT, quantitative tightening, where they're selling those bonds that they bought
off their books, the Fed, but also by raising interest rates at a breakneck speed, which they
did. But inflation got up above 9% that we admitted to. I mean, you can't tell me that my
insurance costs were up only 20%. I mean, they've doubled. And knock on wood,
great driver, basically a perfect record here. And my insurance just keeps going up and up and up and
up and up. There are a lot of reasons for that. You know, the simple reason is inflation. Another
reason is because you have a lot of uninsured drivers out there that, you know, the insurance
companies have to raise the prices in order to cover the cost of everybody else who's not paying
for it, just like healthcare, just like Obamacare created the same situation. The people who are
paying for health insurance or paying more to subsidize the ones who are not paying for it.
This bull run, I think everybody should focus on getting their Bitcoin in self-custody and
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The reality or are getting subsidized to get coverage. It's just the reality of the,
of the structured program. That's the way it is. So, but, um, you know, back to your point,
it's lagging. It's always lagging. It's imperfect. It's always imperfect.
The, these, these surveys are almost, they're almost comical. You know, you've got half the
people don't don't even answer the surveys and then you know um the ones that do uh are giving
data that may or may not be accurate and it's lagging terribly and then they go back and revise
it the one thing that doesn't get revised is the unemployment number so even though you've got these
you've got half a million jobs have been taken off the table from beginning of the year the
The unemployment number doesn't get revised, just the number of jobs that they counted.
And one of the big things that I always wonder about is there's a huge assumption in these
numbers that's called the birth and death model.
And that's the birth and death of companies.
And so they assume that there are companies being created and companies that are being
destroyed, shut down along the way.
And those assumptions have massive numbers of jobs around them.
And if that assumption is wrong, then it can sway by 50, 100,000 jobs either way easily. And so that's a big problem and they've got to figure that out.
and then again the fed is lagging and to go back to the analogy of the wildfire if they get it wrong
on one side where they are too easy they make it they make the the policy is too easy it's
expansionary they print money they give it out they have low interest rates they have zerp zero
interest rate policy it makes everything you know more expensive and there's more dollars out there
there's more borrowing there's more dollars created through borrowing through the way the banking
system works and it's created from the Fed and put out to the consumers. Hard to get that inflation
rage under control, that fire. On the flip side, Powell would rather be overly tight. Why? Because
it's easier to jumpstart the economy by implementing QE, by printing money and buying bonds and putting
money out there that wasn't out there before and controlling that flow and lowering interest rates
to ease, to get that the economy going, it's easier for him to do that than the flip side.
And so he'd rather get in a situation where the Fed has to control the, just the steepness and
the depth of that drawdown in recession by printing money and easing interest rates.
So, and he's doing it in a lagging, in a way that's lagging the economy.
And so that's what gives investors pause.
And that's what worries them is that he's going to stay too tight for too long.
And here we go again.
The Fed's going to create another recession by, you know, keeping a lid on the money supply and on liquidity.
now everybody thinks that once these interest rates cut everything in the market is going to
be fine and dandy and then we're going to take off do you do you see it as that way as as well
or is it because i mean i feel like when we have such a strong i guess we'll call it group think
like everybody's agreeing on one thing once we cut interest rates bitcoin's going to take off
everything in the market always does the opposite at least maybe initially so you know do you see it
as that way as well? Like it's so clear cut that once the Fed, you know, cuts interest rates,
everything will be, I guess, a little bit smoother or is there going to be some bumps along the road?
Yeah, I think you're describing the market is forward looking and it's already priced in.
And that's typically the case. So if you've got everybody is bullish, well, then you better get
out because there's nobody left to buy. And so I don't believe that's the case because of the
situation we're in here, Brandon, where it's, it's late summer. There's a lot of,
there's, it's pretty quiet. Um, we've had this run of treasury companies that have been created.
We can talk about that. Um, there's confusion around some of their strategies, uh, like micro
strategy. Um, you know, that's been in the market today. There's, uh, there's, there's fear out
there that the, you know, Bitcoin has touched all time high, it backed off. And I'm kind of
looking at the chart over here as I'm looking at it, to me, it's great. I mean, it gives it an
opportunity for us to go in and opportunistically buy some while everybody else is asleep and that's
fine. If the Fed cuts rates, it's pricing to the market. The market will just kind of grind
sideways here for a little bit, I think. If he comes out and he's extremely dovish, then the
market would rip. If he sounds too dovish though, that he sounds like he's really worried that he's
seeing some things that means that we're already in a recession, that would give me some discomfort
and that would give investors discomfort that they'd say, oh no, he thinks we're going to hit
the skids here. We're going to be in a recession that's bad. So we're in this funny period. It's
kind of perverse, Brandon, that bad news is good news for the market and good news is bad news for
the market in that if employment, if the employment rate goes down, jobs numbers are good, that's not
good because the market wants more liquidity and they want the Fed to ease and vice versa.
So I think 25 basis points is priced in. I think two cuts are priced into the market
for the rest of the year.
One here in September
and then another one in October
or December, somewhere in there.
But there's two cuts basically have been priced in,
maybe a little bit more.
But that's it.
If we get three cuts, the market will rip.
If we get one cut, the market will sell off.
It'll just, they'll reprice it.
everything will get repriced off of that but right now that's where the market is telling you
and that's interesting so you know then then that gets to the all-time highs that we've kind of
hitting in and floating around I guess because you you've mentioned this a little bit earlier in
our conversation how Bitcoin is showing I guess a little bit of the the tendency here right where
you know it's the leading tech indicator um and you know whether the maxis want to agree with it
not that's essentially what the market is showing but i mean the reality is like we've gone down
maybe like four or five six percent from the all-time high and in bitcoin terms that's not
really that much um you know so we're still kind of floating around that that all-time high but it
seems like you know with the amount of buying that's coming on with these treasury companies
the price just isn't isn't ripping so is it even though the these treasury companies are coming on
Is it just not the volume needed just yet?
Or is there still some whales or potentially other reasons,
other factors that are going in that are causing the price not to start to rip just yet?
Well, I mean, we've seen whales selling.
We saw a big whale sell 80 Bitcoin just a couple of weeks ago Price you know that good news The question is are they selling to go fund of lifestyle that they held out for
Which, hey, God bless, you know, if you have held on to a thousand Bitcoin for this long
and you want to go monetize that 80,000 Bitcoin for this long and you want to go monetize that
It's billions of dollars, you know?
Yeah, I mean, okay.
How can you fault that?
Go buy your chateau or your yacht or whatever that you're looking for
and fund that lifestyle that you've held out for.
Great, whatever.
No big deal.
But I think that some of these whales that are selling are turning around
and saying, they're like, look, I've had 100, 200,
to whatever X on my money already.
I want to get to, like right now,
yeah, we may get a 10X in Bitcoin.
I believe we get a 10X in Bitcoin
over the next seven, eight years.
That's nothing like they have experienced up to now.
The OGs, the whales that have been around for a long time.
And so I think some of them want to remain in Bitcoin,
but they want to get a little bit more out of it
in this space. And there's a way to do that. The way to do that is to buy these Bitcoin treasury
companies because they'll give you what will be a multiple on that return, I believe.
Now, not all of them, some of them, a handful of them will do very well, I think.
That's my thesis. It's the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund, my hedge fund. That's what we believe.
And we're invested in some of these because we believe that.
Not all of them.
We're not invested in every single treasury company,
but we're invested in a select number of them that we believe in.
So I think that there's some rotation going there, Brandon.
It's coming out of Bitcoin, going to these treasury companies,
and it's being washed back into Bitcoin as it happens.
That's why you're seeing the price kind of grind sideways, higher,
a little bit lower, sideways.
You know, it's kind of grinding here.
from 100 to 120, you know, it's been in this range since May, basically, you know, it dipped down a
little bit in June, but since May, it's been in that range. It was in the 100 to 110 level. And
then it moved up in July from 110 to 120. It's been between there and 110, 111, somewhere in there
since the beginning of July.
And I think what you're seeing is this rotation
out some OGs that are moving out of Bitcoin
and into the treasury companies.
And some of them are joining boards
and doing that stuff
and creating these treasury companies themselves.
I mean, Adam Back is doing one.
I don't, you know, good for him.
You know, he's got,
he's looking for new things to do.
The guy has been doing this
since the days of the message board
with Satoshi. I mean, he's looking for creative ways to not just expand his wealth, but to expand
the reach of Bitcoin in the community. And I've had long conversations with him. And so I think
that some people know whether he's selling any Bitcoin to do it himself. I don't know. You know,
I haven't spoken with him specifically about that, but I would think there are some who are doing
that and i don't blame them and you know have at it it's uh that's why we call it that's the bitcoin
is the best free market do what you want to do with it um we want to hold it that's my that's
what i'm doing but you know um there are other things to do and that's why that's why we started
that fund and that's that's uh and we're enjoying all this there's a massive amount of opportunity
out there from our position yeah and i mean i definitely think that there there is and then
And we've kind of seen this, we touched on it briefly, the uncorrelation, so to speak, of these Bitcoin treasury companies from Bitcoin.
Or at least we had Bitcoin hit a massive all-time high.
And I think I saw an account that tweeted out MicroStrategy was down 29%.
um and uh you know we saw some some of these treasury companies be down as much as like 75 80
percent um you know when bitcoin was hitting that those all-time highs um so I I guess the initial
narrative was always that these treasury companies are at least micro strategy MSTR strategy B whatever
you want to call it now uh is is like a two to five to eight you know x levered play on Bitcoin
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All right.
Enough from me.
Back to the show.
now it seems like that narrative has been shifting a little bit as of late where people
are more tentative on that and saying you know some of these treasury companies are not going to
to make it um now how do you view and i guess evaluate some of these are you looking at them
more as like you like that the ones that actually have an underlying business outside of the
holding strategy or do you like maybe the ceo's ability to raise money how are you kind of looking
at these? And why do you think that there is, I guess, seemingly a disconnect, at least in the
market in the short term right now from these treasury companies to Bitcoin? Yeah. So it's a
good question. So first of all, the MNAV that you're talking about, the multiple on the underlying
Bitcoin on their balance sheet, that's MNAV, multiple on the NAV of the Bitcoin on the balance
sheet. You know, we've seen these things fluctuate around. We started buying MicroStrategy when the
MNAV was 1.2. But we talked to them, we, you know, we talked to Michael and we talked to Sharish,
their treasurer, who helped implement this strategy, was spearheading it for them.
We understood what they were trying to do and what their goal was and what their goal is.
And so, you know, we still believe that.
He's created all kinds of strategies around it.
So micro strategies is kind of a special situation because they're so far ahead of everybody else.
They've got over 600,000 Bitcoin now.
And so, and they've got access to capital markets that other companies just don't have.
Not all of them.
Some of them do.
You know, CEP21 certainly does with the involvement of Canter and Jack Mahler's new play there.
But there's all kinds of different ways that these companies can create the ability to buy more Bitcoin.
And it's using converts, which can actively dampen the volatility.
Well, it actually dampens.
It holds the price of the stock down because as you issue a convert, there are convert arbitrage traders that will buy the convert and then short the stock in order to delta hedge it.
and like what's called the optimal hedge around owning that convertible bond
because it can be converted into stock at a certain price.
So they'll trade around that.
Or you could do preferred shares like MicroStrategy is doing.
And that is not dilutive to the stock.
It doesn't put pressure on the stock because you're basically saying
that we're going to pay you a dividend off of the future,
basically the future price of Bitcoin.
And so that's a special case.
But there are other cases like MetaPlanet came out and was basically the only proxy for Bitcoin in all of Japan.
So if you were a retirement account or an investor that wanted to buy Bitcoin but couldn't get it into your brokerage, you could buy MetaPlanet and get a proxy to that.
And now they're doing a similar playbook to MicroStrategy.
and so they're able to create a way to arbitrage capital markets.
You're basically, you're borrowing money in yen
and you're buying Bitcoin with it.
It's an arbitrage.
And so they will warrant a different multiple.
They have a different kind of moat there
because there's not another proxy for buying Bitcoin there like that.
So that's a strong moat. It could change. We don't know if and when, but that's more of a regulatory issue. Then you've got the same thing in other areas, whether it's Brazil or Canada or the UK, you've got similar situations. And so there are companies that were invested in those areas because of that.
then you you get the question of what you're saying is what m nav makes sense and it is
different for each one and it is and it really depends on a lot of the factors that you named
do they have a moat is it a geographical regulatory moat is it uh is it that they have access to
great access to capital to expand their balance sheet um you know are they do they have
an original investor and partner in their venture like CEP does with Tether,
21 does with Tether.
Is there something like that going on?
Who is the CEO?
Can they generate enough interest?
And can they lead that strategy, that Bitcoin treasury strategy to do that?
That's another question mark. And we believe that these things are going to settle in somewhere around one to two and a half MNAV for virtually all of them. There may be outliers like Metaplanet that will be higher.
but what we're seeing here in my opinion Brandon is people figuring that out and trying to shake
out who should be trading at what MNAV according to what they believe they can how much Bitcoin
yield they can generate meaning how how much of an MNAV should they trade at because of how much
more Bitcoin they can create in their balance sheet per shareholder and so but we're watching
that closely and um and it's going to play out here now as far as our fund is concerned we're
now out there buying things that are trading at eight nine ten m nav like that doesn't make any
sense for us being a hedge fund and we can um we're structured in a way that we can invest in
these before they come to market so they're private deals they're pipes they're you know
private investments before they hit the market. They're pre-IPO, they're pre-merger of SPACs.
And so we're getting these things much closer to one MNAV, in some cases less than one,
which is basically you're buying Bitcoin for less than the price it's trading here.
And so, and you're taking the risk of that company executing their plan to do that.
But we're fortunate that we're able to get some of these companies in the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund because we're a hedge fund.
We're not a venture fund.
We're structured as a straight hedge fund.
And we're doing things like this because we can.
We can buy these things for one or less than one MNAV or just above one MNAV.
And they're trading at much, much, much higher multiples on paper right now.
that's an advantage of being structured the way we are,
that we can do anything, public, private, early stage, late stage.
It doesn't matter.
As long as it's Bitcoin related,
we have the structure that we can be involved.
And so we're kind of fortunate that way.
And that's a little bit of our edge.
And cautiously, we're still approaching that.
We see a lot of opportunity in this still,
a whole lot of opportunity in this space still and a lot of runway there.
But again, we're not just out there buying these things at public MNAV prices by rote.
We're very careful and strategic in the way that we're doing it.
Now, you said something interesting here where I've heard you and Michael Saylor,
for some reason, always point out MetaPlanet, right?
I mean, it seems like in reality, they're like the seventh or eighth.
biggest holder. But everybody always talks about MetaPlanet. Is it something unique with Japan's
market? And if so, why do you think that Michael Saylor has mentioned that of all companies,
the only player that could potentially catch us would be MetaPlanet and seemingly that he's
hinting that's because of Japan. But I'd like to hear your viewpoint on it.
Yeah, I mean, look, he knows Dylan LeClaire.
Dylan, actually, I was there.
I was standing with Dylan when he was telling me about being approached by MetaPlanet and thinking about doing this.
He actually went up to Michael Saylor and said, this is what I'm thinking about doing.
And Michael literally told me, go for it, you know, right there at this conference.
And so, and it is structural.
It is regional. It is regulatory that they have this advantage there.
But they also have – they've got good management to execute on that plan.
Will they catch MicroStrategy?
I don't believe that. I don't believe they will.
MicroStrategy is just so far ahead that I don't see anybody catching them, truly.
but I do see a handful of players that will be in that top tier and Metaplanet is one of them,
you know? Um, so, but there are other ones, you know, there are other ones that are out there,
including, um, ones that I probably shouldn't talk about cause they're not public yet. So,
uh, there, but we do believe that there's, there, the, it's not just management. It's not just
structure. It's like the whole package. You've got to be able to execute on this in a way that
continues to give your shareholders trust that you're going to execute the plan you say you're
going to execute because they're giving you a premium to your price on the expectation
and the agreement that you're going to do the plan that you say you're going to do.
yeah so then all right so if it's uh not if no other public company uh you know what do you think
of i guess the differences between like a meta planet and say a 21 which seemingly you know
their strategy at 21 is just like a bitcoin holding company where meta planet although it
was failing they had you know the hotel businesses underneath micro strategy had the you know the
SaaS business underneath. Do you think that there's a major difference in this? Similar
Scientific, for example, has the healthcare type of angle to it. Is there different evaluations,
you think, for companies that have this underlying business and are putting Bitcoin on the balance
sheet opposed to just these strict Bitcoin treasury companies, it seems? Yeah. Well,
Well, there's going to be a maturation, maturity process here in all of these companies.
And in the companies who do add Bitcoin to their balance sheet.
So you hit on something that's important.
Let's kind of unpack this.
21.
Okay, so MicroStrategy, strategy, they basically said they're executing a financial engineering strategy to get more Bitcoin on the balance sheet for their shareholders.
That's all they've said so far.
I do believe that they're going to get big enough that they can do other things with that Bitcoin.
They have not laid out a plan for that yet Michael a smart guy He going to figure out ways that they can capitalize that and keep growing this company He wants to eventually be the biggest company in the world Why not And he eventually will be if he sticks with the strategy and Bitcoin
does what we think it's going to do. 21 explicitly came out and said they're going to be a Bitcoin
finance company. They're going to structure products around it, lending products, collateralized
products, you know, so that is different. That is what they're headed to do. That's their goal.
It's a different strategy. Metaplan is much along, much more along the lines of, of a Japanese
version of strategy, of micro strategy, doing the same kind of financial engineering. And then you've
got, you know, you've got other companies that are, are looking to use cash flows to fund this
Bitcoin treasury. This is, this is really important. And this is, this is something that we have not
seen be rewarded yet, which is real companies with real cash flows using those cash flows to
buy Bitcoin and add to their treasury. That has not been rewarded yet. The current reward is
financially engineered Wall Street out of dollars to use those dollars to put into Bitcoin.
And so arbitrage that, that capital market, that's been the big play so far.
I do believe that eventually we get to this point, Brandon, where people realize that the best play long term, once this has been kind of soaked up, the capital markets play, the arbitrage play, it's going to be using cash flows to buy Bitcoin and put it on your treasury.
ultimately the ultimate goal you know um the ultimate not goal the ultimate i think uh
sign of maturity of of this space is when you have companies that are that are s p 500 companies
that are not just the apples and microsoft's and um and uh googles of the world but eventually
they are doing this where they are cash cows. You're creating billions of dollars and billions
of dollars and they're turning around and buying billions of dollars of Bitcoin with that.
I believe that's a future, but that's a way off. In that time between now and then,
you're going to see smaller companies. You're going to see whether they're REITs or they're
other types of cash generating companies, smaller companies that are more, they're using their cash
flows to buy the Bitcoin much like you would see something like the playbook of a Warren Buffett
where he used cash flows to buy companies.
Well, he used cash flows to buy Bitcoin.
So it's that kind of model eventually to grow your Bitcoin treasury.
And then the ultimate end game is to protect your hard-earned money
by putting it in Bitcoin and protect your treasury.
Not by buying bonds, but by buying Bitcoin
because bonds will be melted away with extreme inflation
and can be rapidly.
So you have to be careful of those.
So long-term bonds, like long duration bonds.
So I think that's how we mature in this industry.
So that's why we believe that there's a long,
long, long runway here for Bitcoin
and the expansion of understanding it.
And that's really where this comes out,
where a broad set of investors and executives
understand Bitcoin enough to know
that it's the ultimate store of value and they should be putting part of their treasury if not
all of it in bitcoin eventually um that's a ways off again but i think that's where we're headed
yeah and but something that worries me with all of this right is like you you know you're
describing the financial engineering and i like kind of the way you put that where these companies
are utilizing wall street and you know the traditional financial products to essentially
put more bitcoin on their balance sheet and utilizing basically like a group of people
and making it a business and getting a big loan so they could buy more bitcoin quicker than
you know the average joe really could now you know with that it seems like all this debt it's
just kind of stacking up on these you know utilizing the debt the debt markets the traditional
financial tools to buy more bitcoin is almost like on a house of cards where if we do have this big
downturn that this could be kind of like the spark of you know maybe not to the extent of an ftx but
maybe you know maybe we have enough of these companies coming in and just being kind of
irresponsible with uh the amount of debt that is is just going to be accumulated to buy bitcoin now
is that a possibility in your mind or is there just not enough money being lent out for this to
be you know i mean although we see the billions it's you know in the grand scheme of things is it
is it enough to kind of cause this i guess quote unquote black swan type of event yeah no i think
um it's a good question and it's a lot of fear out there about this but the reality is like
meta micro strategy is only you know 20 levered um so you could have an 80 drawdown in bitcoin
just on that math alone um but the reality is that his interest payments on his preferreds his
um you know the maturity of those converts the converts are not even they he doesn't have to pay
interest on those zero zero percent converts so um but he he doesn't have to retire those uh or pay
for them all at once it's a ladder you know a time ladder um so that doesn't that doesn't worry me at
all uh people talk about strategy being oh so leverage so leverage like it would be even if it
It did get to a point where he needed to pay down some of the debt because it's retiring.
It's maturing.
And the capital markets are closed.
He could sell some Bitcoin to do that.
And it wouldn't be that big of a deal compared to how much Bitcoin he owns.
And this time ladder, the way they strategically, that's why they call it their company strategy now.
They strategically created a situation where they wouldn't be overrun with a tsunami of capital needs.
So that's intelligent financial engineering.
We are seeing some that are a little bit more out there on the risk curve that we have not gotten comfort with.
So we don't do those.
They're not huge.
They're small.
And some of them will blow up because they get over their ski tips and they need liquidity. They can't have access to the capital markets where they have to sell their Bitcoin. And then it kind of feeds on itself where their MNAV goes down and then they have to sell, you know, a certain, they wind up selling more than they wanted to. They don't have access to capital markets.
that could happen to some of these. And I expect it to happen to, you know, a handful of them,
but I don't think it's, it's a situation like you're describing because the truth is the reality
is that, you know, they aren't stacking debt on debt on debt to do this. The biggest ones,
they're just not, they're not levered the way that people are feared or that it may be painted
in the press. It's not true. So I'm not particularly worried about that, at least
the way the market is structured today and the way we're seeing these companies buy Bitcoin and
financially engineer it today. Could it get worse in the future? Sure. But I think today we're okay.
Yeah, it's just a bunch of FUD, right, James? I mean, it's like every single Bitcoin bull run,
We always get some new FUD.
So, I mean, I guess this is the newest FUD that we're having here.
So, you know, we were talking a little bit about it previously,
but the Fed cutting interest rates and kind of seeing it, you know,
Q3, Q4 is generally when Bitcoin really starts to take off here.
You know, I mean, November, you know, we got Moontober,
all those kind of memes that they're already throwing around.
And it seems like that's going to be a lot.
There's a reason for it, but yeah, there's a reason for it.
We'll get into it, but go ahead.
Yeah.
yeah so i mean that well then let's get into it because it seems like that's going to be lining up
with the fed cutting interest rates so yeah yeah are we going to be taking off towards the end of
the year like how do you see the rest of this playing out and you know on top of that everybody
always says the four-year cycles it seems like because of this bigger money in here i'm curious
for what you think of as this you know quote-unquote asset is developing you know bigger
market cap and everything, do you see the volatility going down in the four-year cycles
period kind of ending, or do you see it kind of the other way?
Well, we've hit our all-time high just a few days ago. And so now you're getting into the end of
August, you got the jacks in the hole, and then you've got the Fed meeting in September.
On top of that, Brandon, you have what's called, it's the fourth quarter dress up. It's like these
window dressing of fund managers, investment managers, CIOs. They've got to get themselves
positioned, their portfolio positioned for payout at the end of the year. They get paid bonuses.
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me. Let's get back to the show. And so part of their review is how did their portfolio do?
What names do they have in it? How did those do? And what are the prospects going forward for the
portfolio? What are they seeing? How are they positioned? And so did you cut your losers? Are
Are you adding to your winners?
Like, how are you doing here?
And so you get a lot of that in September, a little bit in October, but a lot of it is
September because, you know, that they want to be positioned for that fourth quarter,
that last quarter.
And so September, October, you get a lot of movement in, in, in these big names because
they had the fund managers, not just the hedge fund managers, but the, the, the massive
investment managers like the, you know, the Guggenheims and the, and the PIMCOs and the,
the Calpers and the, the Texas teachers of the world, or they're moving this stuff around.
And so you're going to have some of that. So what do I think is going to happen? We're going to get
that Fed meeting. We're going to get the September. I think we're going to probably get a 25 basis
point cut, all things being equal. And if the data comes in benign between now and then, anything
could change, the data could change in a heartbeat, as we've seen, especially with the tariff stuff.
But all things being equal, as of today, I see a 25 basis point cut and I see the market kind of,
you know, either shrugging or selling off on that and that being an opportunity. Because you're
right, once we go back and expand this liquidity and Bitcoin lags that expansion by 8 to 12 weeks
and that expansion continues.
Well, Bitcoin is going to continue to expand as well.
And I expect it to be in the, you know,
$150,000, $180,000 range toward year end.
I think I just saw the mooch.
He was on, he said $180,000 to $200,000 on CNBC or something.
And so I'm kind of in the same camp with him.
It all has to do with liquidity,
the expansion of the money supply
and expansion of liquidity, not just M2,
but credit. And, and Michael Howell does a lot of great work on this. I've talked with him
great length about this. Actually, there's a video all about it on, on my, on my substack
that I talked to him about it. And, and we talked through how he looks at this and how, how,
what he expects. His view is, you know, it's, it is it's matured since then, or it's, it's,
you know, moved a little bit, but then you can see it on his newsletter, but you know,
long and short of it is, I believe that liquidity expands through the end of the year and into next
year and Bitcoin lags that, which means that Bitcoin is going to continue. It's going to,
it's going to go break this last all time high, and it's going to go to 150, 180, or maybe even
higher before the end of the year and, and could hit in the low twos into next year before we,
We see a kind of drying up of liquidity.
And that's what, so we're watching for that.
I don't know if it happens, but we're watching for it.
Those are the signals we're looking for.
And that's kind of where I'm, I hate price predictions,
but if I'm looking at liquidity and I'm looking at the markets,
I'm looking at what to expect.
That's kind of where my mind is today.
Gotcha.
And yeah, I mean, that makes sense, right?
Everything can seemingly change.
And it seems like a lot has changed kind of in the adoption cycle, so to speak.
So I know you work a little bit with Mark Moss and the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund.
He, when I had him on, lined out something very distinctly to me.
And it kind of stuck with me about the 50-year period or cycles of how Bitcoin could potentially develop because it's happened in history.
The first 10 years is retail.
Second 10 years is institution.
third 10 years is governments, then we get to maybe a medium of exchange in that fourth year.
And then in the fifth year, that's when we'll get to that unit of account. Do you see it kind of
playing out that way as well? And if that is the case, then do you see us kind of, I guess,
almost delaying the governmental adoption here? Because, you know, it seems like at first when
Trump got into office, it was very gung ho. And we're going to be, you know, the crypto leader
of the world and Bitcoin strategic reserve.
And then it always seems like they're kind of backtracking
every time I hear them in the news following that.
So how do you see kind of the development
of just Bitcoin taking it over?
Because it seems like we're in the Bitcoinization
of finance right now.
Yeah, I think that Mark's a smart guy
and that makes perfect sense.
And what makes most sense to me
is that this is a long timeline.
I don't think that we have a hyper Bitcoinization in the next 10 years.
I just don't think that.
I think people, you know, why we exchange dollars is not because it's backed by anything.
It's just, it's only, it's only backed by the belief that if I take a dollar from you,
I can go use it somewhere else and someone else is going to take it too.
That's it.
Simple as that.
And so it's just confidence in it.
The confidence in the US dollar is by far greater than any other currency in the entire world.
There's nothing that has more confidence in it.
I mean, even if you take gold, like I can't just go spend gold somewhere.
Someone's got to figure out how much it's worth and their dollars or their, you know, yen or their one.
Like what is it worth?
And it's just clunky, you know.
So eventually gold has been the ultimate store of value, meaning that for thousands of years, it's held its value.
You can get about the same amount of goods, the same 400 loaves of bread or same tailored suit or whatever with one ounce of gold.
And so that's been a good store of value.
Bitcoin is going to continue to take that helm.
It's going to continue to win over that helm.
And as it does that, I think it winds up strengthening the dollar if the U.S. backs it, if the U.S. adopts it and puts it in a strategic reserve.
It winds up strengthening the U.S. balance sheet and the confidence in the U.S. dollar for a while.
So whether or not they ever turn around and back bonds with Bitcoin remains to be seen.
I think that eventually they're going to be backed into a corner where they're going to have a little
choice but to do so in order to keep spending so that's the that's that's a long way off though
Brandon I think it does move in 50 year cycles at best and so it's going to take a long time
I do I think that when I'm
and my kids are, you know, my age, it's going to be a completely different world for money.
And it's hard for people to wrap their heads around that because everybody alive now knows
the US dollar is being the king, but that has not always been the case and it won't always be the
case. You know, we will eventually migrate to a different system monetarily. And at this point,
I would bet on Bitcoin.
We'll see.
Or maybe I won't see, but you might.
James, I mean, you're talking so grim here, man,
about maybe you won't see with everything.
I mean, I think the only thing you won't see in the future,
maybe for the rest of your life, is Texas winning another net.
We can put it on that there.
So we all know the Aggies will win it.
So you don't have to worry about that.
So maybe we'll get to the hyper Bitcoinization a little bit sooner than that, though.
But, you know, with that, I want to have some fun with you now.
Now that I got my little chop in, what do you see from your longhorns this year, James?
I know last time we had you on, we talked a little hockey.
Now I want to hear your prediction.
I mean, you guys are coming in.
Texas is back, as always.
You know, number one preseason team.
And we're coming in right before the college football season's going.
So is Texas going to win the national championship?
I know you said you don't like price predictions, but I'll have to put you on a spot for college football prediction.
Man, it's hard coming into the season as number one, isn't it?
You've got the bullseye on your chest all year, if they can hold it.
First, they've got to come out and play number three, Ohio State.
That's just nuts.
That's going to be a fun game.
So what do the Longhorns have?
Well they got a really strong D which is that exciting to be able to hold other teams down I just remember back in the late 90s early 2000s
when Oklahoma would come in to the Cotton Bowl
and you'd be all revved up because we had this great offense.
And then next thing you know, you're getting absolutely obliterated
because Oklahoma put 65 points on the board.
So that's actually pretty exciting.
Everybody's talking about Arch Manning.
And so another one that's got a bullseye in his chest,
the guy's played just a handful of games and not a full game, right?
So he's only been in certain situations.
He's done extremely well.
He's got the poise of a Manning, and he's shown that he's got that size.
He's getting bigger.
He's getting stronger.
He's getting smarter.
But this is going to be a big test for him.
because he's coming out as a leading candidate for the Heisman Trophy,
and he's only played partially in a few games.
So that's kind of crazy to me.
It's a lot of pressure for a kid, and he is a kid.
He's 20-something years old.
I mean, he's just a kid.
But I think he's ready to step up,
and it's going to be very interesting to see.
The first game is going to be a huge test.
It can set the tone for the whole year,
but I have high hopes for them.
Do I think they ultimately win it?
It's hard to say, you know,
but I do think that they ultimately will be in the playoffs.
And I don't know if I'd say the same about the Aggies this year.
Everybody's always a hater on the Aggies, man.
I think we a little bit of a dark horse this year We got a good defense That what A always has We always got a good defensive line We always have some good corners I mean you can see the guys in the pros Von Miller Miles Garrett all those guys
They can frustrate teams.
If they put their mind straight, they can really.
And I've been to Kyle Field.
That wall of Aggies, you know, the 11th man.
I mean, that is.
12th man, dude.
It's a 12th man.
That is impressive.
You know, that is impressive.
And it's, I mean, that is, you walk in there, that's a, that's a lot of noise.
And, uh, so Kyle Fields, to me, it'd be a tough place to play.
Um, but, uh, I don't know.
It's, it's going to be, it's going to be exciting and interesting.
It's going to be a fun, it's really fun season to me.
It's going to be real fun.
So, and, uh, yeah.
And I got another, another daughter over, she's a, she's a gator.
So that's another, we'll see.
Okay.
Yeah.
So those two are their little intra-family rivalry.
Hey, Lagway is going to be nice this year.
I mean, I'm out here in Tampa, so like half the people are Florida State fans,
half the people are Gators.
So, I mean, I hear it from both ends as well out here.
But, James, I feel like we got to do a little bit of a bet here
for the Thanksgiving game here.
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
I will ride with my Aggies here.
um and if not i don't know i mean maybe we got to put like 10k sats or 20k sats or something like
that on it you name this you name the sats and that's the bet all right we'll do 20 we'll do 21k
sats on i'll take the aggies you could take the longhorn straight up i mean i'm sure that the
longhorns will be heavily favored so i'm going to be looking a little grim going into it but i'll
I put I put it on the line for my Aggies here this time All right It a bet All right Sounds good Well James thanks so much for playing along with me here at the end and the insightful conversation that you always bring
Why don't you tell people more about where they can find you and what you guys got going on in the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund?
Yeah, of course.
My newsletter is just that it's the informationist and you can find it at jameslavish.com.
I put it out each week and just simplify one confusing financial topic for you weekly.
There's a free version that comes out once a month.
And then the Bitcoin Opportunity Fund.
Yeah, we just started raising fund two.
We've already raised over 20% of our goal and we're super excited.
And it's a public-private partnership that invests in the Bitcoin space.
Like you heard, all these things that we're doing.
and it's for accredited investors.
I have to say that,
but if you're interested,
you can just get more,
you can get more info at www,
obviously,
bitcoinopportunity.fund
and just put in your information
and we can set up a call or whatever
and see if it's appropriate for you.
We're always looking for good new LPs.
So, but we're super excited.
It's a great space to be in,
really good time to be in it.
and there's a long road ahead, a lot of runway ahead of us.
A hundred percent.
Yeah, this bull run is just getting started.
So there's a lot of great things ahead
and I'll put all that in the show notes.
And James, thanks so much.
Awesome to be here, Brandon.
Look forward to the next time.
Thank you.
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