1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,840
Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.

2
00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:17,560
This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can

3
00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:24,540
around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean

4
00:00:24,540 --> 00:00:29,560
for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so

5
00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:36,600
much for listening. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Once Bitten Podcast.

6
00:00:37,300 --> 00:00:44,900
And joining me today is David Pierce, otherwise known as At Tufty the Cat, but the cat is now out

7
00:00:44,900 --> 00:00:53,800
of the bag, who joins me to talk about Craig Wright, fake Toshi. And before anybody starts

8
00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:59,020
thinking, oh, this is just going to be another takedown of BSVers, and that's not the case.

9
00:00:59,020 --> 00:01:17,360
And I hope that somehow, somewhere, somebody that is holding BSV does get to listen to this episode and even goes back and listens to another episode that I've released back on 27th of August, 2025 with Mark Hunter and Arthur Van Pelt.

10
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:28,320
It's episode 559. They have written what's going to be a series of books about Craig Wright and his claims of being Satoshi.

11
00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:37,960
if you are like i said part of the bsv crowd listen to this with an open mind this is not

12
00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:45,600
a bashing session it's not what we are here to do use it as a tool to help educate yourself

13
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:53,360
about the asset that you currently hold that's it take from it what you will that's all i will say

14
00:01:53,360 --> 00:02:01,140
about it. David is here to share his experience of the court case. He was there watching the whole

15
00:02:01,140 --> 00:02:07,940
thing unfold and his experience as a patent lawyer and what he found digging into some of the

16
00:02:07,940 --> 00:02:16,300
hundreds of patents. There's the flag there already. Hundreds of patents that had been filed

17
00:02:16,300 --> 00:02:19,720
or were continually being filed by Craig

18
00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:25,800
and how he found some of them to be fraudulent,

19
00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:26,820
for want of a better word,

20
00:02:27,180 --> 00:02:29,660
and removed, rescinded.

21
00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:31,740
Interesting battles.

22
00:02:32,260 --> 00:02:33,540
Very interesting battles.

23
00:02:33,540 --> 00:02:37,860
But you've got to dig through this kind of stuff

24
00:02:37,860 --> 00:02:41,840
to find the truth behind some of the stories

25
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:43,680
that have been put out there.

26
00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,260
So one quick fact for you guys.

27
00:02:47,460 --> 00:02:53,400
I've just checked on Fountain app where a lot of the listeners have switched to now.

28
00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:54,640
So thank you for doing that.

29
00:02:54,720 --> 00:03:03,740
If you've not switched to listening to Fountain or watching, all audio and video goes on Fountain 24 hours before general release.

30
00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,000
Subscribers to the show get that ad free as well.

31
00:03:08,100 --> 00:03:12,580
So you don't get me blaring at the beginning or at the end giving the shout outs to the show sponsors.

32
00:03:12,580 --> 00:03:18,140
you just get the pure conversation they're building a great tool over there for bitcoiners

33
00:03:18,140 --> 00:03:24,060
who are looking to escape the walled garden systems of spotify or apple pods or google

34
00:03:24,060 --> 00:03:28,920
pods wherever it is you're listening currently get over to fountain and i just checked the stats over

35
00:03:28,920 --> 00:03:39,440
there 19 of the listeners are coming from china that's the number two country tuning in to the

36
00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:47,660
Once Bitten podcast. That's crazy to me. Ni hao China. Thank you so much for listening and

37
00:03:47,660 --> 00:03:56,740
I hope you're getting a lot of information and education from the conversations from this podcast.

38
00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:03,300
It's a crazy stat for me to see. I've never seen that before so maybe that is an indicator of

39
00:04:03,300 --> 00:04:09,840
what's going on thank you again to everybody that boosts the show or streams sats to the show

40
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:16,260
really appreciate that it's just a brilliant way to interact with people i love seeing those sats

41
00:04:16,260 --> 00:04:21,040
come in i've even been getting people reach out on orange pill app directly and boosting me on

42
00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:27,460
the orange pill app excuse me club orange club orange daniel my goodness club orange the rebrand

43
00:04:27,460 --> 00:04:35,800
is real uh yeah shout out to bits thank you for the boosts and sending sats across the wires

44
00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:41,800
straight into my club orange lightning wallet which works perfectly well and if you're not in

45
00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:47,920
club orange you 100 should be even just to check it out for a few months if it doesn't work for you

46
00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:53,780
cancel the subscription you've lost nothing other than a few sats but what you might have gained the

47
00:04:53,780 --> 00:05:01,960
opportunity cost of not joining Club Orange is immeasurable. You could literally meet your next

48
00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:08,400
best friend. You could literally meet your next partner in life. You could literally meet, whether

49
00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:15,280
that's business or romantic, right? You know, the idea of Club Orange being a dating app was always

50
00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:22,460
a bit of a meme, but, you know, we've had marriages. We've got our first Club Orange baby.

51
00:05:22,460 --> 00:05:24,820
it's just so great to see

52
00:05:24,820 --> 00:05:28,960
but you also get partnerships from people that go out and build shit

53
00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,160
and start making projects

54
00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,820
and that's what's so great to see as well

55
00:05:33,820 --> 00:05:36,000
before we get into this rip with David

56
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:40,320
please bear with me as I give a few shout outs for the show sponsors

57
00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,460
Relay have been with me for many many years

58
00:05:43,460 --> 00:05:46,000
R-E-L-A-I.CH forward slash Bitten

59
00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:47,920
go start stacking your stats over there

60
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,740
and bitbox.swiss forward slash Bitten

61
00:05:50,740 --> 00:05:53,000
for your cold storage options.

62
00:05:53,460 --> 00:05:54,840
I have just run out of music

63
00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:58,140
because this was an unscheduled shout out for China.

64
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,200
Thank you again, everybody for listening.

65
00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:02,100
Paywithflash.com.

66
00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,680
This is the last time you're gonna hear anything from me

67
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,740
and paywithflash.com for a little while.

68
00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,920
They're going dark, but that is not bearish.

69
00:06:10,060 --> 00:06:10,700
That's bullish.

70
00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:12,680
They've got things to build.

71
00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,540
They've seen a little crack in the market

72
00:06:15,540 --> 00:06:17,540
where they know they can add value.

73
00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:19,780
So they're going to get their heads down.

74
00:06:19,780 --> 00:06:23,280
So keep a very close attention to what they're doing.

75
00:06:23,620 --> 00:06:25,440
It's paywithflash.com.

76
00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:26,180
Get over there.

77
00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,340
And like I said, join Club Orange.

78
00:06:28,580 --> 00:06:30,140
You can hit the link in the show notes.

79
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:31,340
There's a referral link there.

80
00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:33,500
And take self-custody very seriously.

81
00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,820
bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten.

82
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:37,860
Let's get into this one with David.

83
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,760
Thank you, everybody, again for listening.

84
00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,360
I hope you enjoy this show.

85
00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:43,480
All right, David.

86
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:44,680
Great to see you again.

87
00:06:44,840 --> 00:06:45,920
We met in Manchester.

88
00:06:46,860 --> 00:06:48,960
Lauren wasn't there, so she didn't get a chance to meet you.

89
00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,360
and uh we had a great discussion and i wanted to bring you on the show to talk about many things

90
00:06:53,360 --> 00:07:02,720
but uh lauren as usual is going to hit you with the first question so thank you uh what did it

91
00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:09,800
feel like when you figured out all the seed phrases from the obvious book oh we're on that

92
00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:16,480
already um yeah but now for the listeners for the no no that's fine for the listeners a little bit

93
00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:25,120
of context, Avi Burra, a mutual friend of ours, he wrote a book called 24, fictional book about

94
00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,360
Bitcoin. Well, not entirely about Bitcoin. It's a great fictional book. Please go and read it. It's

95
00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:35,680
a brilliant journey. And he's now written and released his new one, which I've also read and

96
00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:45,760
really enjoyed. And in both books, he hid a seed phrase. So David, how did you find the seed phrase

97
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:52,900
and claim the Bitcoin and feel free to share whether, you know,

98
00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:55,760
the amount, if you're happy to do that or not.

99
00:07:56,500 --> 00:07:59,260
And yeah, and then Lauren's question is,

100
00:07:59,260 --> 00:08:04,560
how did that make you feel when you put the words in and saw that transaction?

101
00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,400
Well, yeah, I'll answer that first.

102
00:08:08,620 --> 00:08:11,100
I remember distinctly where I was.

103
00:08:11,260 --> 00:08:12,460
It was a Saturday evening.

104
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:13,820
I was sat on the sofa.

105
00:08:13,820 --> 00:08:19,780
I'd had a few conversations with another guy who was helping me, who had a big computer.

106
00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,140
And I got the message from him.

107
00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,880
And I was, let's put it mildly, gobsmacked.

108
00:08:30,020 --> 00:08:33,880
I was astonished because he just sent me a message saying, yep, done it.

109
00:08:35,060 --> 00:08:38,400
And then wanted to wait until the transaction had confirmed.

110
00:08:38,780 --> 00:08:43,160
And then about 10 minutes later said, yep, we've got it.

111
00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,120
and here's the 24 words in the right order.

112
00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:48,740
So that was astonishing because I'd spent a few weeks

113
00:08:48,740 --> 00:08:52,160
trying to figure out the order.

114
00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:58,380
Because I don't know if you know the way the clues are presented in the book.

115
00:08:58,940 --> 00:08:59,040
No.

116
00:08:59,140 --> 00:09:02,420
You've got the 24 words, which is just the titles of the chapters,

117
00:09:02,660 --> 00:09:03,720
the 24 chapters.

118
00:09:04,060 --> 00:09:05,060
It can't be that simple.

119
00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:06,100
Oh, God.

120
00:09:08,100 --> 00:09:10,900
So, I mean, that's the first thing you figure out,

121
00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:11,700
but that's fairly easy.

122
00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:14,160
You just read the book and then eventually you go, oh, oh, yeah.

123
00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:15,780
Well, it's just those 24 words.

124
00:09:16,540 --> 00:09:20,820
And then you think, is that, well, it's clearly not that.

125
00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:28,060
But then you start looking into, well, there's various poems and things in the book.

126
00:09:28,060 --> 00:09:36,040
And the non-smeister keeps coming up and read it through again and thought, there's something there, but I can't quite get it.

127
00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:41,500
And I started, as usual, I start to overcomplicate things.

128
00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:47,380
And I started thinking, oh, maybe there's one of the characters where there's some of the poems.

129
00:09:48,100 --> 00:09:49,320
There's some clues in there.

130
00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:52,120
And you start seeing, oh, it's full of seed phrases.

131
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,420
So eventually I realized, well, that's all red herrings.

132
00:09:56,420 --> 00:10:03,900
And came back to the titles of the 24 chapters and realized that, actually,

133
00:10:03,900 --> 00:10:12,780
if you think of the number of combinations of that you can put 24 words in just rearrange them

134
00:10:12,780 --> 00:10:19,600
in in any order the number of combinations is absolutely massive even with just the same 24

135
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:32,613
words so it not feasible to to even plug that into a computer and say give me the right order because the number the number of times you have to go through and make guesses is is absolutely

136
00:10:32,613 --> 00:10:38,213
enormous so i mean it's nowhere near the number that you'd have for the the two to the power of

137
00:10:38,213 --> 00:10:44,613
256 combinations you have for a for any seed phrase but it limits the space down to still a

138
00:10:44,613 --> 00:10:51,073
very very big space but i thought well that could be it and in that case it's just a question of

139
00:10:51,073 --> 00:10:57,993
switching some of the switching the the order around and there must be clues that that give

140
00:10:57,993 --> 00:11:05,213
you that and that's that's the way i started going so i created a spreadsheet and started

141
00:11:05,213 --> 00:11:11,393
putting some possibilities in and spent probably a week or two in my spare time

142
00:11:11,393 --> 00:11:14,733
trying to figure out what possibilities there would be.

143
00:11:14,853 --> 00:11:17,213
And I ended up, I think I ended up getting to about,

144
00:11:17,953 --> 00:11:22,393
I got to 14 words

145
00:11:22,393 --> 00:11:26,133
which could be in one place or another,

146
00:11:27,053 --> 00:11:28,513
if that makes sense.

147
00:11:29,073 --> 00:11:32,593
So I didn't get anywhere near the 24 all in the right order,

148
00:11:33,233 --> 00:11:36,953
but I got to the point where 14 of them were either here or there.

149
00:11:37,673 --> 00:11:39,333
And all of them were either here or there.

150
00:11:39,333 --> 00:11:41,493
but there was one that was only one place.

151
00:11:43,073 --> 00:11:45,713
And I thought, surely that must be computable now.

152
00:11:47,013 --> 00:11:49,973
And then this guy popped up on Twitter.

153
00:11:51,193 --> 00:11:54,333
I mentioned it a few times that I was looking into it,

154
00:11:54,353 --> 00:11:55,653
but I didn't give anyone any clues.

155
00:11:56,253 --> 00:12:00,073
Mentioned it a few times, and this guy called Proof of Duck popped up.

156
00:12:00,853 --> 00:12:04,573
And his business is solving seed phrases.

157
00:12:04,573 --> 00:12:19,053
So if you've got your seed phrase compromised or your wallet has been corrupted in some way or you can't quite remember the password, there are ways that you can compute the answer.

158
00:12:19,713 --> 00:12:22,393
And that's what it sounds like he did for a living.

159
00:12:23,173 --> 00:12:26,713
And he said, well, do you want to share what you've got?

160
00:12:26,893 --> 00:12:29,793
And I could plug in the rest and figure it out.

161
00:12:30,173 --> 00:12:32,893
And I thought, oh, I don't really trust this guy.

162
00:12:32,893 --> 00:12:39,353
So I replied back and said, let me have a few more goes.

163
00:12:40,213 --> 00:12:50,973
And then looked into it a few more times and thought and realized, yeah, unless I get a few more words, I don't think I've got the ability to do this.

164
00:12:52,053 --> 00:12:53,593
So I went, OK.

165
00:12:53,973 --> 00:12:55,673
And he said, well, we split it 50-50.

166
00:12:56,233 --> 00:13:00,633
And I went, OK, here's what I've got so far, sent you in the spreadsheet.

167
00:13:00,633 --> 00:13:04,113
and this was sort of Saturday afternoon

168
00:13:04,113 --> 00:13:07,353
and then by Saturday evening

169
00:13:07,353 --> 00:13:08,573
he solved it.

170
00:13:10,673 --> 00:13:12,133
So it turned out

171
00:13:12,133 --> 00:13:15,213
with the right sort of

172
00:13:15,213 --> 00:13:17,233
simple bit of coding

173
00:13:17,233 --> 00:13:19,253
and a high power computer

174
00:13:19,253 --> 00:13:21,933
it was doable in, I think he said

175
00:13:21,933 --> 00:13:24,153
it only took the computer a couple of hours to do it

176
00:13:24,153 --> 00:13:26,393
so it churned through all the combinations

177
00:13:26,393 --> 00:13:29,233
based on the starting point of where I got to.

178
00:13:29,233 --> 00:13:34,773
so it was it was kind of i mean whether you call it half and half or he did all the work and i did

179
00:13:34,773 --> 00:13:40,573
a very minor part of it i don't know but we split it 50 50 and i think it was

180
00:13:40,573 --> 00:13:51,493
uh what was it one no 13 million sats right something like that so a fair amount yeah

181
00:13:51,493 --> 00:13:57,013
it was worth the effort but it was it was um yeah i think it was quite

182
00:13:57,013 --> 00:14:00,033
If memory serves, I think

183
00:14:00,033 --> 00:14:02,293
Avi put up a million sats and then people donated

184
00:14:02,293 --> 00:14:03,293
to the address, maybe.

185
00:14:05,313 --> 00:14:05,633
Yeah,

186
00:14:06,313 --> 00:14:08,233
I think he put

187
00:14:08,233 --> 00:14:10,353
10 million and there

188
00:14:10,353 --> 00:14:11,773
was an extra 3 million that ended up...

189
00:14:11,773 --> 00:14:12,753
Excuse me, yes, that's what I meant.

190
00:14:12,933 --> 00:14:13,813
Yeah, that's right.

191
00:14:15,953 --> 00:14:18,413
Yeah, because he made the address

192
00:14:18,413 --> 00:14:20,393
public, just so you could

193
00:14:20,393 --> 00:14:22,373
see that it was there, so you could

194
00:14:22,373 --> 00:14:24,353
see how much people were chipping

195
00:14:24,353 --> 00:14:24,673
in.

196
00:14:24,673 --> 00:14:31,873
um but yeah just had to work out the private key simple i can't believe it was a chapter i'm

197
00:14:31,873 --> 00:14:36,773
thinking like i was thinking of like the the seed phrases being the chapters but i'm like surely

198
00:14:36,773 --> 00:14:43,173
that's just too easy now i thought david that was the red herring i thought that the chapters were

199
00:14:43,173 --> 00:14:47,853
the red herring and i'm like there's nowhere in the world it's the chapters right no time

200
00:14:47,853 --> 00:14:53,813
that's where i started i thought sure surely not yeah but once he realized that the number

201
00:14:53,813 --> 00:15:02,053
of combinations are so huge it becomes a possibility so have you read book number two

202
00:15:02,053 --> 00:15:09,773
yes i think it's better it is better rv you brilliant man it's an absolute

203
00:15:09,773 --> 00:15:16,153
beautiful book i really loved it and yeah i really found his stride with writing

204
00:15:16,153 --> 00:15:37,073
Yeah, I wrote a little review of it on there. I stuck it on Amazon. And I'm thinking it's effectively a combination of a detective story, a James Bond thriller, with elements of Douglas Adams and Salman Rushdie thrown in.

205
00:15:37,073 --> 00:15:43,613
because there are the Douglas Adams bit I know that Avi is a fan of Douglas Adams

206
00:15:43,613 --> 00:15:49,293
and certainly of Salman Rushdie and it's the it's the implausible

207
00:15:49,293 --> 00:15:55,593
coincidences that happen throughout the book there's there's quite a few of them

208
00:15:55,593 --> 00:16:02,933
and you think it drives the story along but there's elements of that magical realism combined

209
00:16:02,933 --> 00:16:06,713
with this is completely implausible for this to happen.

210
00:16:07,373 --> 00:16:10,873
But we're already in that with having read 24.

211
00:16:11,493 --> 00:16:12,973
You know, it's magical.

212
00:16:13,133 --> 00:16:17,433
It's supposed to be magical, but with elements of reality in it.

213
00:16:18,153 --> 00:16:22,833
And with the sacred geometry angle, which is a really nice touch as well.

214
00:16:23,093 --> 00:16:24,013
Yeah, yeah.

215
00:16:24,533 --> 00:16:27,293
It's all fascinating that you try and picture this,

216
00:16:27,733 --> 00:16:30,733
what is it, four-dimensional spiral or something.

217
00:16:30,953 --> 00:16:31,673
It's crazy.

218
00:16:31,673 --> 00:16:46,473
The Hexelion, which I don't know if you made that word up, but it was really lovely because Claire and I, we were in New York for November for the Smash Toshi history of Bitcoin launch that they did at PubKey there.

219
00:16:47,153 --> 00:16:49,293
And I helped them host the panel.

220
00:16:50,053 --> 00:16:51,213
And Avi was in town.

221
00:16:51,513 --> 00:16:55,693
So Avi hung out with us and with his wife and Ishan as well.

222
00:16:55,693 --> 00:16:57,973
and when we were walking around New York because

223
00:16:57,973 --> 00:17:00,073
the book is, both books based

224
00:17:00,073 --> 00:17:01,493
in New York, it would just be pointing

225
00:17:01,493 --> 00:17:03,993
places, this is where that's seen and this is

226
00:17:03,993 --> 00:17:05,733
where that's seen, obviously in

227
00:17:05,733 --> 00:17:07,953
the second book there's a lot that takes

228
00:17:07,953 --> 00:17:09,293
place in Pub Key and

229
00:17:09,293 --> 00:17:12,313
Washington

230
00:17:12,313 --> 00:17:13,493
Park just next door

231
00:17:13,493 --> 00:17:14,793
so that was really

232
00:17:14,793 --> 00:17:17,853
tangible because I'd started reading the second

233
00:17:17,853 --> 00:17:19,593
book on the way, on the flight

234
00:17:19,593 --> 00:17:22,013
and I was flying through

235
00:17:22,013 --> 00:17:23,313
it and it was just really

236
00:17:23,313 --> 00:17:25,633
very captivating

237
00:17:25,633 --> 00:17:32,753
for sure yeah yeah agreed that's what i i wanted to do when i was reading it but thinking i should

238
00:17:32,753 --> 00:17:37,313
uh i need to i need to go to new york and see all these places because they're very specific

239
00:17:37,313 --> 00:17:43,673
yeah that's it and we got the second one here here it is so for those that are watching on fountain

240
00:17:43,673 --> 00:17:51,313
uh july 18th there's the the second book by avi and there is still a bounty up for grabs as far

241
00:17:51,313 --> 00:17:55,273
as I'm aware. How well are you doing with solving this one?

242
00:17:56,413 --> 00:18:02,553
I'm not doing this one. I knew when I first had a chat with Javier

243
00:18:02,553 --> 00:18:05,573
after I'd solved the first one, well, apart solved the first one,

244
00:18:06,193 --> 00:18:09,653
that he was quite clear that the next time it was going to be hard.

245
00:18:11,893 --> 00:18:14,633
I thought, I'm no good at crossword clues.

246
00:18:14,633 --> 00:18:16,633
so anything

247
00:18:16,633 --> 00:18:18,213
vaguely cryptic

248
00:18:18,213 --> 00:18:20,613
rather than mechanical

249
00:18:20,613 --> 00:18:22,653
I'm going to have

250
00:18:22,653 --> 00:18:24,093
no idea of how to do

251
00:18:24,093 --> 00:18:26,453
because solving the first one was

252
00:18:26,453 --> 00:18:28,653
more or less mechanical, it was all about

253
00:18:28,653 --> 00:18:30,773
the Nonsmeister's poems

254
00:18:30,773 --> 00:18:32,553
the Nonsmeister's songs

255
00:18:32,553 --> 00:18:34,853
because in there

256
00:18:34,853 --> 00:18:36,633
it was all the suggestions

257
00:18:36,633 --> 00:18:38,893
of how to switch one number with another

258
00:18:38,893 --> 00:18:40,873
so it was fairly

259
00:18:40,873 --> 00:18:42,153
straightforward to get to

260
00:18:42,153 --> 00:18:48,693
14 using that i'm sure there were lots of other clues and and avi said there were lots of other

261
00:18:48,693 --> 00:18:54,513
cryptic clues um but i certainly didn't get them i'm not sure how many other people got them

262
00:18:54,513 --> 00:18:59,973
so i i think that the clues in the second one are going to be a lot more cryptic

263
00:18:59,973 --> 00:19:06,753
my mind went actually to the the sacred geometry and i was thinking huh i wonder if that's a border

264
00:19:06,753 --> 00:19:11,493
wallets thing and you draw like the the pattern onto a border wallets and that would highlight

265
00:19:11,493 --> 00:19:15,253
x amount of words and then you've got to get and then i just oh stop thinking about it dan

266
00:19:15,253 --> 00:19:25,493
get them with life this isn't my game yeah the way way beyond my my knowledge i know a bit about

267
00:19:25,493 --> 00:19:32,713
bitcoin but you know i'm not going to go into that sort of detail so there you go lauren that's the

268
00:19:32,713 --> 00:19:38,113
treasure hunt through rb's first book this is his second book there's more bitcoin waiting i don't

269
00:19:38,113 --> 00:19:43,353
know how much uh i don't think he's even going to post the address this time when i spoke to him in

270
00:19:43,353 --> 00:19:47,973
manchester uh he said um he's not going to be posting the address which is a shame because i'd

271
00:19:47,973 --> 00:19:55,313
have donated a few more sats to top it up and uh and keep people interested um but yeah so cool

272
00:19:55,313 --> 00:20:00,713
story did you have any follow-up questions lauren no but that kind of sounded like a fun roller

273
00:20:00,713 --> 00:20:08,633
coaster to be on finding all the secrets and being like a detective yeah it's cool it made the book

274
00:20:08,633 --> 00:20:14,613
far more interesting and i'm sure lots of there were there were quite a few other people that

275
00:20:14,613 --> 00:20:20,193
were that were looking into it as well um you know the guy fractal encrypt yeah who does the

276
00:20:20,193 --> 00:20:27,793
the big sculptures uh he was trying to do it as well and um expressed frustration when i got it

277
00:20:27,793 --> 00:20:36,073
And I found out yesterday via Simon, you know, Simon of Al,

278
00:20:36,693 --> 00:20:42,813
that Joe Martin, he hid a seed phrase in his song, The Jetsons,

279
00:20:43,333 --> 00:20:59,065
which somebody has since solved and claimed bounty Yeah So it really cool these little fun games that uh that people are uh putting into their work yeah right well thank you lauren for kicking us off

280
00:20:59,065 --> 00:21:05,505
thank you for answering my questions thank you lauren pleasure yeah thank you bye bye

281
00:21:05,505 --> 00:21:13,485
all right david we should probably kick off with the good old-fashioned bitcoin rabbit hole story

282
00:21:13,485 --> 00:21:19,025
what brings us together and you and i talking about treasure hunting through

283
00:21:19,025 --> 00:21:29,565
a fictional book about magic internet money yeah it's crazy really yeah um i've done i've done a

284
00:21:29,565 --> 00:21:35,045
few podcasts and i think i may well not be consistent with my story because i can't quite

285
00:21:35,045 --> 00:21:43,245
remember i can't quite pin when i first started investigating bitcoin or whether i first

286
00:21:43,245 --> 00:21:50,285
heard about it probably first heard about it in i don't know 2016 17 but didn't do anything about

287
00:21:50,285 --> 00:21:55,465
it i think i got some in 2017 but then just sat on it i didn't actually go down the rabbit hole

288
00:21:55,465 --> 00:22:03,285
um but it was um i don't know if you've seen my interviews with gabby male i did a couple of years

289
00:22:03,285 --> 00:22:11,305
ago uh you don't need to watch those but um as i mentioned to him he's um i've probably got craig

290
00:22:11,305 --> 00:22:19,205
right to thank for me looking into and learning about bitcoin because that was probably my

291
00:22:19,205 --> 00:22:28,345
proper introduction and started in about 2020 um because i noticed all these patent

292
00:22:28,345 --> 00:22:34,005
applications were being filed um and it was all related to this guy who was supposedly

293
00:22:34,005 --> 00:22:42,465
Satoshi Nakamoto so I started looking into it and and got involved with um this thing that was

294
00:22:42,465 --> 00:22:46,785
called I get my terminology right they were calling themselves the open crypto alliance

295
00:22:46,785 --> 00:22:55,665
which is not the crypto open patent alliance which is copa yeah no but the open the open

296
00:22:55,665 --> 00:23:04,965
Patent Alliance was just a loose group of people who I think, I'm not quite sure how

297
00:23:04,965 --> 00:23:08,665
I got in touch with them, but involved.

298
00:23:09,265 --> 00:23:14,665
Stephan Kinsella was on there, who I'm sure you're aware of or know, might have even met.

299
00:23:16,285 --> 00:23:18,285
Patent attorney who's very anti-patent.

300
00:23:18,285 --> 00:23:20,405
US patent attorney

301
00:23:20,405 --> 00:23:21,525
who's very anti-patent

302
00:23:21,525 --> 00:23:23,945
and libertarian and

303
00:23:23,945 --> 00:23:26,025
Mises Institute and all that stuff

304
00:23:26,025 --> 00:23:27,925
so he was on there

305
00:23:27,925 --> 00:23:30,125
and we spent

306
00:23:30,125 --> 00:23:32,545
several months

307
00:23:32,545 --> 00:23:34,385
going

308
00:23:34,385 --> 00:23:36,405
through various

309
00:23:36,405 --> 00:23:38,305
options

310
00:23:38,305 --> 00:23:39,885
of what we might do with

311
00:23:39,885 --> 00:23:41,525
Craig Wright's patenting

312
00:23:41,525 --> 00:23:43,985
and eventually came to the conclusion

313
00:23:43,985 --> 00:23:45,765
that it was all a bit pointless

314
00:23:45,765 --> 00:23:48,205
but during

315
00:23:48,205 --> 00:23:53,545
that period this was all my introduction to bitcoin so i was reading up all these all this

316
00:23:53,545 --> 00:24:01,345
technical stuff uh reading the the usual books um ended up reading um it's just behind me

317
00:24:01,345 --> 00:24:11,805
andres antonopoulos's 2014 edition of mastering bitcoin um which is turns out to be pretty good

318
00:24:11,805 --> 00:24:18,125
prior art because it goes into the technical detail as well as all the you know the usual

319
00:24:18,125 --> 00:24:22,825
what it does as well as,

320
00:24:23,505 --> 00:24:25,625
but it goes into the detail of how it does it.

321
00:24:25,845 --> 00:24:29,065
So it has the code as well and the op codes and all that stuff.

322
00:24:30,265 --> 00:24:35,465
So I got to that sort of base level detail of how Bitcoin works

323
00:24:35,465 --> 00:24:40,385
with a view of thinking, well, how can anyone patent any of this?

324
00:24:41,005 --> 00:24:43,825
Because it's all in this book in 2014.

325
00:24:44,825 --> 00:24:47,905
But that seemed to be what Enchain was doing.

326
00:24:48,125 --> 00:24:52,525
so the opening patent allowance

327
00:24:52,525 --> 00:24:53,645
didn't really go anywhere

328
00:24:53,645 --> 00:24:56,665
there wasn't really

329
00:24:56,665 --> 00:24:58,805
any interest in trying to knock down

330
00:24:58,805 --> 00:25:00,885
any of Craig Wright's patents

331
00:25:00,885 --> 00:25:02,865
certainly wasn't any

332
00:25:02,865 --> 00:25:04,625
money around to do it

333
00:25:04,625 --> 00:25:08,045
and then

334
00:25:08,045 --> 00:25:10,905
do you want to get into

335
00:25:10,905 --> 00:25:12,705
that story because that's sort of

336
00:25:12,705 --> 00:25:13,985
where it leads to really

337
00:25:13,985 --> 00:25:16,425
so

338
00:25:16,425 --> 00:25:23,465
So just to give people, like, you know, round out that story,

339
00:25:23,585 --> 00:25:25,725
that part of your life, the reason you're looking at patents

340
00:25:25,725 --> 00:25:27,665
is because this is your day job, right?

341
00:25:27,745 --> 00:25:29,365
This is how you're mining your fear.

342
00:25:30,285 --> 00:25:33,185
And is this a career that you've...

343
00:25:33,185 --> 00:25:34,365
Yeah.

344
00:25:34,865 --> 00:25:36,605
Before we take that next step,

345
00:25:36,605 --> 00:25:40,605
I was thinking that's the rabbit hole that we can go down,

346
00:25:40,605 --> 00:25:49,025
but they to take a few steps back i started my second career as it turned out um as a patent

347
00:25:49,025 --> 00:25:59,245
attorney in 2003 2004 after i'd been a um a researcher so i was doing research into

348
00:25:59,245 --> 00:26:03,565
piers of electric materials doesn't really matter you don't need to understand what they are

349
00:26:03,565 --> 00:26:04,905
Here's your electricity.

350
00:26:06,325 --> 00:26:07,385
Peasoelectricity, yes.

351
00:26:07,805 --> 00:26:08,125
Right.

352
00:26:09,245 --> 00:26:14,765
That's electricity that's created when you tightly pack something together.

353
00:26:15,145 --> 00:26:16,885
Am I correct?

354
00:26:17,065 --> 00:26:17,945
Yeah, more or less.

355
00:26:18,085 --> 00:26:19,485
Yeah, quarters of peasoelectric.

356
00:26:19,665 --> 00:26:22,325
So you squash it, it generates an electric field.

357
00:26:22,885 --> 00:26:26,005
And conversely, you apply an electric field and it changes shape.

358
00:26:26,745 --> 00:26:31,065
So these effects are on a very, very small scale.

359
00:26:31,065 --> 00:26:39,245
so you're talking microns of movement and thousands of volts so they're but you'll see them in

360
00:26:39,245 --> 00:26:46,205
a cigarette lighter that goes a cigarette lighter that goes click and creates a flame

361
00:26:46,205 --> 00:26:54,985
has a tiny little piezoelectric chunk inside it so a hammer hits that chunk and it generates a

362
00:26:54,985 --> 00:27:01,925
high voltage which generates the spark so these the same the same material that is used in in

363
00:27:01,925 --> 00:27:08,725
cigarette lighters uh i was playing with um yeah it was really playing it was researching but

364
00:27:08,725 --> 00:27:14,485
researching is playing if you find it interesting so i was doing that at university as a postdoc

365
00:27:14,485 --> 00:27:20,925
researcher and um i was making springs with it so i was making making these ceramic springs

366
00:27:20,925 --> 00:27:29,445
and i invented this thing that was in the form of a first order super helical piezoelectric

367
00:27:29,445 --> 00:27:36,085
actuator it's a coiled coil this is all completely irrelevant but it's not but it's really cool

368
00:27:36,085 --> 00:27:40,365
people love these little side rabbit holes and so what what would that research what were you hoping

369
00:27:40,365 --> 00:27:47,545
to i mean this could potentially be linked to like a perpetual motion and all this kind of stuff

370
00:27:47,545 --> 00:27:55,225
right is this where people in that field kind of like go to you do see the quite often you see

371
00:27:55,225 --> 00:28:01,405
perpetual motion applications that people file and they always get refused and it's quite a common

372
00:28:01,405 --> 00:28:07,485
thing that uh people file at the patent office and i read the decisions and they're quite amusing

373
00:28:07,485 --> 00:28:15,405
and you think but why who is this nutcase this is this is real what i was doing was was real it did

374
00:28:15,405 --> 00:28:21,345
work and i ended up making quite a quite a beautiful little thing because it was it was

375
00:28:21,345 --> 00:28:28,285
pretty because it was a coiled coil if you imagine a you take a spring and then you take the axis of

376
00:28:28,285 --> 00:28:36,325
that spring and turn it into another coil you've got a coiled coil um and if you make that out of a

377
00:28:36,325 --> 00:28:43,865
piezoelectric material you can make the the coil twist and the twisting action of that coil makes

378
00:28:43,865 --> 00:28:47,005
the coiled coil elongate linearly.

379
00:28:49,145 --> 00:28:53,225
So it amplifies these very, very small movements

380
00:28:53,225 --> 00:28:54,445
into a very large movement.

381
00:28:55,125 --> 00:28:57,365
And I had this thing that we ended up calling it a worm

382
00:28:57,365 --> 00:29:02,865
because it was just, it was about 34 centimetres diameter,

383
00:29:03,145 --> 00:29:05,845
this coiled coil, and coated in platinum,

384
00:29:06,065 --> 00:29:06,965
so it looked quite pretty.

385
00:29:08,265 --> 00:29:12,065
And it moved about a centimetre up and down

386
00:29:12,065 --> 00:29:14,645
when you applied this voltage to it of a few hundred volts,

387
00:29:15,385 --> 00:29:17,925
which I thought was pretty cool at the time

388
00:29:17,925 --> 00:29:20,185
because normally you get, you know,

389
00:29:20,485 --> 00:29:22,645
you're measuring these things with a microscope

390
00:29:22,645 --> 00:29:25,965
and you can see it moving a centimetre.

391
00:29:25,965 --> 00:29:27,365
So that was pretty good.

392
00:29:28,085 --> 00:29:29,185
So that got patented.

393
00:29:29,685 --> 00:29:32,905
And the reason this led me onto my second career

394
00:29:32,905 --> 00:29:34,385
is that this thing got patented.

395
00:29:34,385 --> 00:29:37,085
What could have been the practical applications for that?

396
00:29:37,225 --> 00:29:39,785
You know, if it was built at scale or even at nanoscale?

397
00:29:39,785 --> 00:29:51,365
Well, there was an application that was developed, and I worked for a company for a while that took on this patented invention and put them in.

398
00:29:51,565 --> 00:29:56,085
The application that they wanted to use this in was in mobile phone cameras.

399
00:29:57,405 --> 00:30:00,965
So this was around 2000, 2001.

400
00:30:02,185 --> 00:30:07,625
So cameras were getting better in mobile phones at the time.

401
00:30:07,625 --> 00:30:16,025
and the problem was that they didn't have a mechanism to auto focus them and these are tiny

402
00:30:16,025 --> 00:30:22,465
tiny lenses that had to move maybe a few hundred microns so which is still quite quite a lot for a

403
00:30:22,465 --> 00:30:29,285
mechanism to do and and this this invention of mine was a possibility of you know you wrap the

404
00:30:29,285 --> 00:30:36,925
coil around the lens and you can make it you can make it move the the desired amount and these these

405
00:30:36,925 --> 00:30:41,105
things were made and prototypes were made and i think they ended up making maybe a few hundred

406
00:30:41,105 --> 00:30:48,445
thousand um as a sort of prototype level that's prototype level for mobile phones so they ended

407
00:30:48,445 --> 00:30:55,745
up i i went to taiwan a few times and these things got made in china and i forget which company

408
00:30:55,745 --> 00:31:00,545
they're working with probably sony ericsson uh ended up making a few hundred thousand of these

409
00:31:00,545 --> 00:31:02,185
and then cancelled it.

410
00:31:03,605 --> 00:31:05,905
So it's one of those things that could have been,

411
00:31:06,265 --> 00:31:07,545
but didn't quite make it.

412
00:31:09,085 --> 00:31:23,318
By that point I decided to switch career because I was more interested in the patenting side rather than the engineering development side which I to be honest I found quite scary

413
00:31:25,658 --> 00:31:38,758
So I switched career, went and did an MSC at Queen Mary in London on intellectual property, which was really good.

414
00:31:38,758 --> 00:31:41,058
but I'm assuming it's still going

415
00:31:41,058 --> 00:31:42,998
but that was a brilliant course that they did

416
00:31:42,998 --> 00:31:45,538
so patents, trademarks, copyrights

417
00:31:45,538 --> 00:31:46,538
competition law

418
00:31:46,538 --> 00:31:48,578
also the whole lot

419
00:31:48,578 --> 00:31:51,498
and then got a

420
00:31:51,498 --> 00:31:54,858
got a trainee position

421
00:31:54,858 --> 00:31:56,998
in Nottingham

422
00:31:56,998 --> 00:32:00,018
and did the rest of my exams

423
00:32:00,018 --> 00:32:01,838
over the few years after then

424
00:32:01,838 --> 00:32:04,258
a huge number of exams you have to do

425
00:32:04,258 --> 00:32:05,958
to become a qualified patent attorney

426
00:32:05,958 --> 00:32:08,118
and I qualified in 2009

427
00:32:08,118 --> 00:32:10,898
finally, UK and European.

428
00:32:12,138 --> 00:32:15,298
So you qualified to practice before the UK Patent Office

429
00:32:15,298 --> 00:32:19,218
and the European Patent Office, which are similar qualifications

430
00:32:19,218 --> 00:32:20,118
but different exams.

431
00:32:21,718 --> 00:32:26,558
So there's about 15 or 16 exams in all you have to take and pass.

432
00:32:28,558 --> 00:32:33,758
So from there, I've been doing that job now for, yeah, 20 years.

433
00:32:33,758 --> 00:32:42,198
working in well working where I'm now at home in between Birmingham Nottingham I work for a company

434
00:32:42,198 --> 00:32:53,278
in Birmingham now and a lot of my work is drafting patent applications and what we call prosecuting

435
00:32:53,278 --> 00:32:59,618
them so taking them through from filing them at the UK patent office or European patent office

436
00:32:59,618 --> 00:33:03,118
all the way through to being granted, which can take a few years.

437
00:33:04,218 --> 00:33:09,998
And also I deal with opposition work at the European Patent Office, EPO,

438
00:33:10,918 --> 00:33:12,038
on either side.

439
00:33:12,138 --> 00:33:16,138
So I've opposed people's patents, try and knock them down.

440
00:33:16,778 --> 00:33:21,478
I've also defended against other people trying to oppose my client's patents.

441
00:33:22,538 --> 00:33:24,018
And that's pretty fun.

442
00:33:24,018 --> 00:33:29,278
I mean, that's scary, but it's quite fun when you have to go to...

443
00:33:29,278 --> 00:33:30,938
a lot of it is in written procedure.

444
00:33:31,098 --> 00:33:33,098
So there's a lot of written stuff going to and fro,

445
00:33:33,698 --> 00:33:37,498
but you end up usually in a hearing,

446
00:33:38,658 --> 00:33:40,078
which are all held online now,

447
00:33:40,178 --> 00:33:42,658
but a few years ago it was all in person.

448
00:33:42,658 --> 00:33:45,858
So I'd spend lots of trips to Munich,

449
00:33:46,778 --> 00:33:48,598
which is where the European Patent Office is.

450
00:33:49,698 --> 00:33:53,798
And then you have to present your case before a tribunal.

451
00:33:54,098 --> 00:33:56,878
So three senior examiners at the EPO

452
00:33:56,878 --> 00:33:59,698
and the other side's there if it's an opposition

453
00:33:59,698 --> 00:34:03,718
and you have to argue your case, they argue their case.

454
00:34:03,778 --> 00:34:04,858
It's a bit like a court.

455
00:34:06,098 --> 00:34:11,018
So I'm a bit like a barrister in that setting.

456
00:34:12,598 --> 00:34:14,598
And sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

457
00:34:15,678 --> 00:34:19,758
But that's the sort of, you know, the fun bit of the job, I suppose.

458
00:34:20,598 --> 00:34:25,258
But most of it is doing the, putting together arguments,

459
00:34:25,258 --> 00:34:28,798
trying to find things in an application that might be allowable,

460
00:34:29,458 --> 00:34:32,758
arguing the case with the examiner, trying to get it through to Grant.

461
00:34:34,258 --> 00:34:39,238
So that's what I was doing up until, well, I'm still doing all that,

462
00:34:39,378 --> 00:34:47,638
but that's my lead-up to how I got into Craig Wright and Enshan's patents,

463
00:34:47,878 --> 00:34:50,778
patenting activities, just out of interest,

464
00:34:50,778 --> 00:34:58,818
because I thought, well, I think the introduction to the thing

465
00:34:58,818 --> 00:35:02,978
that got me interested was why are they filing so many?

466
00:35:04,478 --> 00:35:08,738
And this came up initially in 2017 or thereabouts

467
00:35:08,738 --> 00:35:13,918
when people were, something popped up, I can't remember where it was,

468
00:35:14,678 --> 00:35:17,658
but something popped up and made me think, oh, what's that?

469
00:35:17,658 --> 00:35:22,478
Why have they filed, at that point, 70 patent applications in one year?

470
00:35:23,458 --> 00:35:24,358
I thought, that's a lot.

471
00:35:25,658 --> 00:35:29,198
For a small UK company, filing 70 patent applications,

472
00:35:29,238 --> 00:35:33,458
one or two every week for a year, that's unusual.

473
00:35:33,838 --> 00:35:36,418
Is there a cost connected to filing?

474
00:35:39,818 --> 00:35:41,978
Not when you file at the...

475
00:35:41,978 --> 00:35:45,438
There is a cost for filing, but at the UK Patent Office,

476
00:35:45,438 --> 00:35:47,138
the fees are pretty low.

477
00:35:47,138 --> 00:35:52,098
I think you pay about £200, so it's not expensive to file at the UK office.

478
00:35:52,738 --> 00:35:56,378
But if you're using a patent attorney, we're not cheap.

479
00:35:57,238 --> 00:36:02,438
So you'd have to spend several thousand to get the thing prepared for filing.

480
00:36:03,398 --> 00:36:12,418
So if you're filing 70 times £5,000 or £10,000 a pop, you're talking serious money.

481
00:36:12,418 --> 00:36:18,118
so they clearly had some serious backing behind them at that point.

482
00:36:18,398 --> 00:36:19,958
So immediately a red flag for you.

483
00:36:20,198 --> 00:36:23,698
Small company filing all of these patents,

484
00:36:24,098 --> 00:36:29,638
clearly burning through cash, which is hard.

485
00:36:29,638 --> 00:36:32,978
That in itself is not really a red flag.

486
00:36:33,798 --> 00:36:37,358
It just makes me think, oh, that's unusual.

487
00:36:38,458 --> 00:36:41,678
What's the reason they're doing this?

488
00:36:42,418 --> 00:36:48,278
it's not necessarily a red flag for a small company to be filing lots of patent applications

489
00:36:48,278 --> 00:36:52,998
because they might have loads of great inventions and they might have lots of money behind them

490
00:36:52,998 --> 00:37:00,358
people do that it's still unusual but it does happen um the thing that made it you know the

491
00:37:00,358 --> 00:37:08,818
red flags were really the the idea that craig wright might be satoshi nakamoto and five minutes

492
00:37:08,818 --> 00:37:16,898
research if you've got if you've got half a brain will will make you realize that no he's not uh

493
00:37:16,898 --> 00:37:27,318
so that's that's where it the the real interest started really um so that that that sort of got

494
00:37:27,318 --> 00:37:36,058
me to where did I start looking properly that early 2021 I was just looking through my previous

495
00:37:36,058 --> 00:37:39,938
blog posts, I started posting blog articles about

496
00:37:39,938 --> 00:37:43,658
what are they doing? And the first one was in February

497
00:37:43,658 --> 00:37:48,038
2021. I was just doing, oh, here's how many they've filed

498
00:37:48,038 --> 00:37:51,918
and they're starting to get things granted as well. So I think by that point

499
00:37:51,918 --> 00:37:55,498
they'd got nearly 60 patents granted by the EPO,

500
00:37:56,358 --> 00:37:59,818
which is quite good going. And they'd filed

501
00:37:59,818 --> 00:38:03,918
maybe 300, something like that. So it was

502
00:38:03,918 --> 00:38:12,058
big numbers but they carried on filing 70 or so a year for several years um and they were getting

503
00:38:12,058 --> 00:38:19,938
them through the system um so do you want to explain for people that that might not be aware

504
00:38:19,938 --> 00:38:31,038
what n-chain was yeah well at n-chain you've you were taught you you interviewed um mark and

505
00:38:31,038 --> 00:38:33,018
recently on the

506
00:38:33,018 --> 00:38:35,138
Fectosia book, so I don't need to go

507
00:38:35,138 --> 00:38:37,458
into all the nitty-gritty

508
00:38:37,458 --> 00:38:39,158
of why Craig Wright

509
00:38:39,158 --> 00:38:40,818
is not Satoshi, but

510
00:38:40,818 --> 00:38:42,958
the starting

511
00:38:42,958 --> 00:38:44,378
point of the story, really,

512
00:38:44,758 --> 00:38:46,998
back in 2015

513
00:38:46,998 --> 00:38:49,038
is...

514
00:38:49,638 --> 00:38:51,258
And the story really is

515
00:38:51,258 --> 00:38:53,078
best set out in that

516
00:38:53,078 --> 00:38:55,138
article, The Satoshi Affair,

517
00:38:55,698 --> 00:38:56,858
Andrew O'Hagan,

518
00:38:57,518 --> 00:38:58,478
I think that's the guy's name,

519
00:38:59,218 --> 00:39:00,558
that's the one to read.

520
00:39:01,038 --> 00:39:04,338
Because that still, I keep going back to that and rereading it,

521
00:39:04,378 --> 00:39:08,198
thinking this guy had it absolutely spot on in 2016.

522
00:39:08,558 --> 00:39:09,778
I think that's when it came out.

523
00:39:10,478 --> 00:39:12,898
But it goes back to the sort of mid-2015

524
00:39:12,898 --> 00:39:19,898
when Craig Wright and Stefan Matthews pulled in Calvin Ayer

525
00:39:19,898 --> 00:39:26,498
to get his money to do the thing that turned into N-Chain.

526
00:39:26,498 --> 00:39:33,598
and I think it was late 2015 when Craig Wright moved over to the UK.

527
00:39:34,718 --> 00:39:38,278
Why it was in the UK, I don't know, but he came to the UK,

528
00:39:39,058 --> 00:39:43,718
set up N-Chain and the purpose of the company was effectively

529
00:39:43,718 --> 00:39:48,778
to patent everything by this supposed Satoshi.

530
00:39:50,718 --> 00:39:53,858
And then from Calvin Ayer's perspective,

531
00:39:53,858 --> 00:40:00,818
once you've got everything patented then you'd be able to sell it for billions to

532
00:40:00,818 --> 00:40:07,958
i don't know ibm google whoever so the the whole purpose from the start was to

533
00:40:07,958 --> 00:40:16,718
create this portfolio of patented technology covering aspects of bitcoin which in itself

534
00:40:16,718 --> 00:40:21,858
made really no sense because bitcoin had already been around for several years by that point but

535
00:40:21,858 --> 00:40:26,558
okay, they were trying to patent some things to do around Bitcoin

536
00:40:26,558 --> 00:40:28,638
that Craig Wright was coming up with.

537
00:40:29,338 --> 00:40:34,818
And they started and filed their first application in February 2016

538
00:40:34,818 --> 00:40:41,578
and just carried on for several years.

539
00:40:43,098 --> 00:40:43,998
You okay?

540
00:40:43,998 --> 00:40:44,578
Yes.

541
00:40:44,578 --> 00:40:48,878
so that's

542
00:40:48,878 --> 00:40:51,358
from February 2016

543
00:40:51,358 --> 00:40:53,658
it's probably worth just going into a little

544
00:40:53,658 --> 00:40:55,718
detail about how the patent filing

545
00:40:55,718 --> 00:40:57,618
system works so they filed

546
00:40:57,618 --> 00:40:59,118
their first applications in the UK

547
00:40:59,118 --> 00:41:00,878
so they got

548
00:41:00,878 --> 00:41:03,218
their person

549
00:41:03,218 --> 00:41:05,738
to prepare

550
00:41:05,738 --> 00:41:07,538
the filings

551
00:41:07,538 --> 00:41:09,618
filed it at the UK patent office

552
00:41:09,618 --> 00:41:11,158
and then

553
00:41:11,158 --> 00:41:13,698
they used those as what we call

554
00:41:13,698 --> 00:41:20,698
priority filing and then 12 months later they would file what's known as an international

555
00:41:20,698 --> 00:41:27,598
application and then they get published and they work through the system and then another

556
00:41:27,598 --> 00:41:33,538
18 months down the line, so this is two and a half years from this original UK filing

557
00:41:33,538 --> 00:41:39,938
date, they then turn into European applications, US applications, US applications, US,

558
00:41:39,971 --> 00:41:42,731
I think they file in Japan, China, a few other places.

559
00:41:43,651 --> 00:41:50,931
So this one filing in February 2016 then turns into an international application,

560
00:41:50,931 --> 00:41:56,111
which doesn't get granted itself, but turns into a European, a US, a Chinese, a Japanese.

561
00:41:56,271 --> 00:42:00,591
So it sort of balloons out into multiple applications throughout the world.

562
00:42:02,111 --> 00:42:08,811
So one filing will end up costing certainly tens of thousands of pounds.

563
00:42:09,971 --> 00:42:14,611
And they ended up filing over 500.

564
00:42:16,691 --> 00:42:17,531
Wow.

565
00:42:17,931 --> 00:42:22,471
So over 500 of these original GB UK filings

566
00:42:22,471 --> 00:42:27,471
that then has ballooned out into thousands of applications

567
00:42:27,471 --> 00:42:30,511
throughout the world and many granted patents.

568
00:42:31,971 --> 00:42:35,851
I've only looked at it from the European perspective.

569
00:42:35,851 --> 00:42:39,131
I can't be bothered to go any wider than that.

570
00:42:39,131 --> 00:42:44,371
But you can see there are lots of US ones, lots of Japanese ones, lots of other ones everywhere.

571
00:42:45,511 --> 00:42:49,671
But my work is mainly through the European Patents Office, so I've been looking at that.

572
00:42:50,191 --> 00:42:52,711
So I'm looking at one particular aspect of it.

573
00:42:55,351 --> 00:42:56,731
So it's complicated.

574
00:42:56,871 --> 00:43:03,311
It's even hard to pin down what the numbers are of how many they've actually got, because it depends how you count them.

575
00:43:03,311 --> 00:43:09,731
So if you ask how many patents does Craig Wright have,

576
00:43:10,091 --> 00:43:12,111
he'll say, oh, I've got thousands.

577
00:43:13,611 --> 00:43:15,431
Actually, he doesn't have any at all,

578
00:43:16,991 --> 00:43:19,711
because none of them are owned by him.

579
00:43:20,331 --> 00:43:22,271
They're all owned by Enchain.

580
00:43:22,991 --> 00:43:24,571
And that was the purpose of Enchain,

581
00:43:25,011 --> 00:43:30,111
to pull together and eventually monetize all these inventions.

582
00:43:30,111 --> 00:43:40,411
so any inventions that come in are all assigned to nchain the company which the holding company is

583
00:43:40,411 --> 00:43:45,851
a swiss a swiss company so it's held by this swiss company throughout the world and then

584
00:43:45,851 --> 00:43:53,971
something happens um they're licensed somehow i've not seen any evidence of them being licensed but

585
00:43:53,971 --> 00:43:57,891
That is what happens with holding companies.

586
00:43:58,651 --> 00:44:02,431
They're set up to hold and license IP.

587
00:44:04,171 --> 00:44:08,931
Same as how I think the business model, the intended business model,

588
00:44:08,991 --> 00:44:10,471
is something like how Starbucks works.

589
00:44:11,291 --> 00:44:16,251
So Starbucks has the holding company which owns the IP,

590
00:44:16,491 --> 00:44:19,011
which is basically the trademark, the Starbucks trademark,

591
00:44:19,731 --> 00:44:23,271
and that is a company in wherever it is.

592
00:44:23,271 --> 00:44:25,191
I don't know, Ireland, Switzerland probably.

593
00:44:26,231 --> 00:44:34,291
And that will license the IP to all the subsidiary companies

594
00:44:34,291 --> 00:44:40,751
in different countries, and they will then pay this holding company,

595
00:44:41,451 --> 00:44:44,791
and it's a way of avoiding local taxes in some ways.

596
00:44:46,231 --> 00:44:49,551
So you can pull all the value that gets accumulated

597
00:44:49,551 --> 00:44:51,491
in that one big holding company.

598
00:44:53,271 --> 00:44:56,331
So that's the business model.

599
00:44:57,331 --> 00:45:00,711
If you've got viable technology that people want to pay for,

600
00:45:00,891 --> 00:45:02,751
that's perfectly fine.

601
00:45:02,851 --> 00:45:03,651
That's what people do.

602
00:45:04,231 --> 00:45:05,771
That's what companies are set up to do.

603
00:45:07,411 --> 00:45:08,971
For Inchain, though, it's a bit different

604
00:45:08,971 --> 00:45:13,851
because they're based on a lie.

605
00:45:16,851 --> 00:45:18,851
And once you see that lie,

606
00:45:18,851 --> 00:45:21,731
everything starts to look a bit different.

607
00:45:23,271 --> 00:45:28,051
The lie being the claim that he was someone he is not.

608
00:45:29,471 --> 00:45:31,451
Yeah, the central...

609
00:45:31,451 --> 00:45:37,351
There's a very good quote from the judgment,

610
00:45:37,351 --> 00:45:40,131
the Coper and Wright judgment from last year.

611
00:45:40,971 --> 00:45:42,671
Let me see if I can just find it.

612
00:45:47,391 --> 00:45:52,351
The main judgments...

613
00:45:53,271 --> 00:45:54,711
Right at the beginning.

614
00:46:01,171 --> 00:46:02,391
Yeah, there we go.

615
00:46:02,611 --> 00:46:08,811
In paragraph three of the Coper and Wright judgment, Mr. Justice Mellor says,

616
00:46:09,271 --> 00:46:15,631
Many of Dr. Wright's lies contained a grain of truth, which sometimes said to be the mark of an accomplished liar.

617
00:46:16,191 --> 00:46:18,791
But there were many which did not and were outright lies.

618
00:46:18,791 --> 00:46:20,751
as soon as one lie was exposed

619
00:46:20,751 --> 00:46:22,691
Dr. Wright resorted to further lies

620
00:46:22,691 --> 00:46:23,331
and evasion

621
00:46:23,331 --> 00:46:25,631
the final destination

622
00:46:25,631 --> 00:46:28,291
I think is the central

623
00:46:28,291 --> 00:46:30,211
the bottom left is the central lie

624
00:46:30,211 --> 00:46:32,731
yeah there's a part in there

625
00:46:32,731 --> 00:46:34,911
where he says it all relates to his central lie

626
00:46:34,911 --> 00:46:36,691
which was his claim to be

627
00:46:36,691 --> 00:46:37,631
Satoshi Nakamoto

628
00:46:37,631 --> 00:46:40,111
so it's

629
00:46:40,111 --> 00:46:42,771
that central lie

630
00:46:42,771 --> 00:46:44,991
is what Enchain was built on

631
00:46:44,991 --> 00:46:46,091
although

632
00:46:46,091 --> 00:46:48,131
there are, it's been

633
00:46:48,131 --> 00:46:50,491
Lots of things have been built on top of that.

634
00:46:51,591 --> 00:46:56,731
So, you know, it's all built on the, well, it didn't start with BSV,

635
00:46:57,191 --> 00:47:03,211
but it ended up being the sort of basis for how BSV developed

636
00:47:03,211 --> 00:47:06,931
as from 2018 or 2019 when it started.

637
00:47:08,191 --> 00:47:11,311
So Enchain started before BSV started,

638
00:47:11,611 --> 00:47:15,951
but it then became the, this is the technology behind BSV.

639
00:47:15,951 --> 00:47:25,111
This is how we're going to develop BSV and make it into this world-beating thing, whatever it is.

640
00:47:28,771 --> 00:47:34,631
Someone popped up today, and what's the... Pied Piper, that's the thing.

641
00:47:35,151 --> 00:47:42,031
So in Silicon Valley, have you seen the series, Silicon Valley?

642
00:47:42,531 --> 00:47:42,811
No.

643
00:47:42,811 --> 00:47:46,491
someone popped up on Xtazay saying,

644
00:47:46,971 --> 00:47:49,431
I've just started watching series six of Silicon Valley,

645
00:47:49,651 --> 00:47:54,851
and it seems to me that Pied Piper is essentially BSV.

646
00:47:57,071 --> 00:47:59,791
So the whole thing being, the suggestion being,

647
00:47:59,851 --> 00:48:01,771
the whole thing is never going to work.

648
00:48:02,331 --> 00:48:02,871
Wow.

649
00:48:03,011 --> 00:48:05,351
And it's all a bit of a, it's all nonsense,

650
00:48:06,351 --> 00:48:10,211
which is more or less what Silicon Valley is all about.

651
00:48:10,211 --> 00:48:12,031
You know, it's all vaporware.

652
00:48:12,031 --> 00:48:18,251
and none of it actually works and then people can carry on for years and years with something

653
00:48:18,251 --> 00:48:24,171
that's never actually going to work it's already been it's already been so long and it's already

654
00:48:24,171 --> 00:48:32,091
been a long time since the since that judgment since that wording like and anybody and it's

655
00:48:32,091 --> 00:48:42,831
still alive it's it's truly unbelievable at this point um it shows you the skills of a charlatan

656
00:48:42,831 --> 00:48:50,691
to you know to have gone through court and then convinced people i've heard people say

657
00:48:50,691 --> 00:48:57,031
this is the cabal trying to bring down satoshi nakamoto you're like oh my goodness guys like

658
00:48:57,031 --> 00:49:05,031
really what what do you need to see is the smoking gun not enough uh for you to um and then see the

659
00:49:05,031 --> 00:49:13,831
guy uh be um you know with this judgment and then you know contempt of court because he didn't go

660
00:49:13,831 --> 00:49:20,911
back and then flee the country like but yet he still has these these minions that support him

661
00:49:20,911 --> 00:49:29,311
and cry foul play from the establishment and the they you know like i'm no fan of the the legal

662
00:49:29,311 --> 00:49:36,591
system at all and you know very rarely is justice ever you know dealt and we could look at like what

663
00:49:36,591 --> 00:49:43,411
happened in the samurai case recently you know just an absolute aberration of justice but for this one

664
00:49:43,411 --> 00:49:50,811
i mean like what you read out is pretty spot on like that you know no flies on these guys

665
00:49:50,811 --> 00:49:51,811
for this one.

666
00:49:54,831 --> 00:49:57,651
Yeah, you mentioned the cabal.

667
00:49:58,191 --> 00:50:01,131
I don't know if you're aware that I've been accused

668
00:50:01,131 --> 00:50:04,311
by BSV supporters of being at the centre of this cabal,

669
00:50:04,751 --> 00:50:05,511
me personally.

670
00:50:07,011 --> 00:50:11,231
So there was a story, I mean, we could get into this.

671
00:50:11,791 --> 00:50:16,091
I've mentioned it a few times, but the idea was,

672
00:50:16,691 --> 00:50:20,571
and this is from a guy like Scott Gillis,

673
00:50:20,571 --> 00:50:26,811
I think he's 369BSV on X, some crazy guy from Wales.

674
00:50:27,671 --> 00:50:29,251
He was at the trial.

675
00:50:29,871 --> 00:50:42,371
And he put up this petition on change.org that was effectively accusing me personally of biasing the judge,

676
00:50:42,371 --> 00:50:45,111
so Mr Justice Mellor

677
00:50:45,111 --> 00:50:49,371
into deciding against Craig

678
00:50:49,371 --> 00:50:51,431
in the Kerpen Wright trial

679
00:50:51,431 --> 00:50:55,411
which is just crazy

680
00:50:55,411 --> 00:50:59,571
What was his basis there?

681
00:50:59,691 --> 00:51:01,631
Is that because you challenged some of the patents

682
00:51:01,631 --> 00:51:04,391
and therefore you were undermining his

683
00:51:04,391 --> 00:51:07,091
No, we haven't even got into that, have we?

684
00:51:07,091 --> 00:51:11,511
But the basis was that I met the guy a couple of times

685
00:51:11,511 --> 00:51:13,911
So I met James Muller a couple of times.

686
00:51:15,431 --> 00:51:22,491
The oddest coincidence was, although it was not that massive a coincidence,

687
00:51:22,691 --> 00:51:25,291
because as part of my job as a patent attorney,

688
00:51:25,891 --> 00:51:30,251
I'm involved in this pan-European organization of IP lawyers,

689
00:51:30,371 --> 00:51:32,671
mainly patent attorneys, called Union IP.

690
00:51:33,671 --> 00:51:36,511
So I go to various places around Europe.

691
00:51:36,731 --> 00:51:39,011
It's quite a nice thing to be involved with,

692
00:51:39,011 --> 00:51:41,611
because you get to meet all these attorneys from around Europe,

693
00:51:42,611 --> 00:51:47,411
which is a good European thing rather than being all insular and UK-focused.

694
00:51:49,031 --> 00:51:52,671
And there's this one that's held every February in Munich

695
00:51:52,671 --> 00:51:55,171
where they have what they call a roundtable

696
00:51:55,171 --> 00:51:59,871
to discuss the latest thing in patent world across Europe.

697
00:52:00,411 --> 00:52:10,697
And it quite a well thing and they have people from the EPO some senior people from the EPO They have and they always invite judges from around Europe

698
00:52:11,577 --> 00:52:15,037
So they'd have, they'd often have a judge from the UK.

699
00:52:15,597 --> 00:52:19,617
So we've had people like Robin Jacob and Colin Burse.

700
00:52:20,037 --> 00:52:25,797
And one year in 2023, someone had invited James Muller.

701
00:52:27,957 --> 00:52:29,657
And didn't know who he was.

702
00:52:29,657 --> 00:52:34,317
I think it was a fairly recent addition to the High Court judges,

703
00:52:35,357 --> 00:52:36,877
and there's only a few of them.

704
00:52:37,177 --> 00:52:41,437
But they tend to come from barristers, and there's lots of barristers,

705
00:52:42,177 --> 00:52:45,297
many of which I don't know, some work in IP,

706
00:52:45,557 --> 00:52:47,157
some work in all sorts of other areas.

707
00:52:48,397 --> 00:52:53,557
And it turned out that at the dinner the night before the seminar

708
00:52:53,557 --> 00:52:57,297
was going to be held, the person who'd invited James Miller

709
00:52:57,297 --> 00:52:58,057
I couldn't attend.

710
00:52:58,837 --> 00:53:03,037
So asked if I could escort him, you know, just be the nice host

711
00:53:03,037 --> 00:53:07,077
and escort him to the dinner and make him feel welcome.

712
00:53:07,997 --> 00:53:14,017
And I think at that point I'd just written something about one of Craig Wright's cases,

713
00:53:14,017 --> 00:53:18,737
which was the database right, which we don't need to go into.

714
00:53:19,037 --> 00:53:24,077
But Craig Wright filed cases involving pretty much everything relating to IP.

715
00:53:24,077 --> 00:53:29,697
database right trademarks, the passing of not patents, but copyright.

716
00:53:31,277 --> 00:53:34,897
And I looked into database rights just as my research into, you know,

717
00:53:34,957 --> 00:53:38,397
how can there be this database right in Bitcoin?

718
00:53:38,537 --> 00:53:39,417
It doesn't make sense.

719
00:53:39,897 --> 00:53:43,757
But I looked into the law and researched it thoroughly and wrote an article about it.

720
00:53:44,277 --> 00:53:48,337
And then the week later, I'm invited to this dinner with James Mellor,

721
00:53:48,377 --> 00:53:52,097
who turns out to be the European leading expert on database rights.

722
00:53:52,097 --> 00:53:54,877
as I found out.

723
00:53:55,237 --> 00:53:55,917
I thought, brilliant.

724
00:53:56,357 --> 00:53:57,777
I'll chat to him about this

725
00:53:57,777 --> 00:53:58,857
and talk to,

726
00:53:59,637 --> 00:54:01,177
try and get what he thinks

727
00:54:01,177 --> 00:54:03,997
about database rights in Bitcoin

728
00:54:03,997 --> 00:54:06,197
because I think at that point

729
00:54:06,197 --> 00:54:08,137
I knew that he had something to do

730
00:54:08,137 --> 00:54:09,237
with the Craig Wright cases

731
00:54:09,237 --> 00:54:11,157
that were pending at that point.

732
00:54:11,977 --> 00:54:13,837
They were a long way off coming to trial,

733
00:54:14,337 --> 00:54:14,917
any of them.

734
00:54:16,977 --> 00:54:18,137
But yeah, I thought,

735
00:54:18,277 --> 00:54:19,937
oh, this is great.

736
00:54:20,117 --> 00:54:21,437
I mean, I'll get to meet this guy

737
00:54:21,437 --> 00:54:22,657
and find out what he's like.

738
00:54:22,817 --> 00:54:28,337
So I had dinner with him and said at the time,

739
00:54:28,657 --> 00:54:30,257
I think he volunteered.

740
00:54:31,737 --> 00:54:35,017
I had just been given the job of handling all these,

741
00:54:35,017 --> 00:54:37,937
I think, four or five cases involving Craig Wright.

742
00:54:39,557 --> 00:54:42,157
So I said, well, we'll not talk about Craig Wright then.

743
00:54:42,697 --> 00:54:44,257
I guess that would be silly.

744
00:54:45,477 --> 00:54:48,017
I'm not going to try and sway him on who this guy is.

745
00:54:48,017 --> 00:54:53,797
I think I just said that all I would say is you're going to have to deal with a lot of documents.

746
00:54:55,297 --> 00:55:00,797
Because by that point, we'd already seen the Clyman and Wright trial.

747
00:55:01,957 --> 00:55:05,917
And the Hodlanoff case was already, had that been decided?

748
00:55:06,057 --> 00:55:07,277
I think it had by that point.

749
00:55:09,257 --> 00:55:10,277
McCormack's case as well?

750
00:55:11,537 --> 00:55:12,137
Which one?

751
00:55:12,717 --> 00:55:13,437
McCormack's case.

752
00:55:13,537 --> 00:55:16,437
He was going through it with Craig Wright around that time, I think.

753
00:55:16,437 --> 00:55:19,797
It was a bit different because in Peter McCormack's case,

754
00:55:19,797 --> 00:55:26,817
he'd abandoned the truth defence because he couldn't afford to deal

755
00:55:26,817 --> 00:55:29,677
with all the hundreds of forgeries that Craig Wright was throwing at him.

756
00:55:30,757 --> 00:55:35,057
But in the Hodlennock case and in the Climbing Wright case,

757
00:55:35,117 --> 00:55:37,417
there were all these hundreds of forgeries that came in,

758
00:55:37,517 --> 00:55:38,957
especially in the Hodlennock case.

759
00:55:40,397 --> 00:55:45,817
And there were expert reports in the Hodlennock case that we'd already seen.

760
00:55:45,817 --> 00:55:47,017
they'd already been made public.

761
00:55:47,197 --> 00:55:52,277
So we knew by that point that this guy throws all sorts of lies

762
00:55:52,277 --> 00:55:54,097
and forgeries at the case.

763
00:55:54,557 --> 00:55:57,817
So it was to be expected that this was going to happen in the UK.

764
00:55:58,117 --> 00:56:02,237
I think we might have already seen some of these forgeries appear at that point.

765
00:56:02,497 --> 00:56:07,157
In fact, I'm sure they'd already appeared on the public record by early 2023.

766
00:56:08,537 --> 00:56:11,417
So I said it at that dinner.

767
00:56:12,197 --> 00:56:14,497
I just didn't want to go into any of that

768
00:56:14,497 --> 00:56:15,857
because that's his job.

769
00:56:16,097 --> 00:56:21,057
That's his job to figure out who's telling the truth.

770
00:56:23,937 --> 00:56:26,477
And then we talked about,

771
00:56:26,557 --> 00:56:28,857
and he presented something about patents,

772
00:56:28,977 --> 00:56:30,897
which I forget what it was,

773
00:56:31,057 --> 00:56:32,837
but something important about patents in Europe.

774
00:56:33,177 --> 00:56:34,777
So that's what he was there for.

775
00:56:36,817 --> 00:56:42,217
And then the following year, I went to the trial,

776
00:56:42,217 --> 00:56:44,457
attended the trial for, I think, five days.

777
00:56:44,497 --> 00:56:47,097
so I was sat at the back of the courtroom

778
00:56:47,097 --> 00:56:48,757
How was that?

779
00:56:48,877 --> 00:56:50,177
Was that just bizarre?

780
00:56:52,237 --> 00:56:53,677
It was really bizarre

781
00:56:53,677 --> 00:56:55,577
when Wright was on the stand

782
00:56:55,577 --> 00:56:58,397
It was really

783
00:56:58,397 --> 00:57:00,357
I've only been to see

784
00:57:00,357 --> 00:57:01,997
court cases a couple of times

785
00:57:01,997 --> 00:57:04,617
and this one was

786
00:57:04,617 --> 00:57:05,877
massive

787
00:57:05,877 --> 00:57:08,177
absolutely massive compared to

788
00:57:08,177 --> 00:57:10,837
your average court case

789
00:57:10,837 --> 00:57:13,237
loads of people on both sides

790
00:57:13,237 --> 00:57:19,797
i was following norbert's uh twitter threads and uh susie was there for some of the days and she

791
00:57:19,797 --> 00:57:25,097
was updating everybody i even tuned in i got the the link to watch it on youtube and i could only

792
00:57:25,097 --> 00:57:30,757
manage about like 15 20 minutes and it was him and i like watching and just watching him

793
00:57:30,757 --> 00:57:39,517
tell spurious bullshit lies and i'm like i just i have to turn this off now i literally physically

794
00:57:39,517 --> 00:57:45,637
cannot watch this guy and you know the damage he's caused so many hundreds of thousands of people

795
00:57:45,637 --> 00:57:51,597
millions probably that have invested in this absolute dog shit uh like you know and get up

796
00:57:51,597 --> 00:58:00,317
there and defend himself and just pass this all off this is it was so repulsive is the word i was

797
00:58:00,317 --> 00:58:05,197
looking for so i can't imagine what it's like being there in person and especially like with your

798
00:58:05,197 --> 00:58:10,997
kind of involvement with it with uh with the patent side like seeing all of the crap that

799
00:58:10,997 --> 00:58:19,397
they were trying to claim as their own like it's it's just vile there's one there's one thing i

800
00:58:19,397 --> 00:58:24,857
mean it would would be here for hours and hours if we're talking talking about the whole thing and

801
00:58:24,857 --> 00:58:33,157
um it's it's not worth doing but uh there was one little instance i'll try and find it where

802
00:58:33,157 --> 00:58:39,777
because I was following along and anytime anything patent related came up I thought my

803
00:58:39,777 --> 00:58:44,577
ears pricked up and thought oh I'll just have a look at that and and there was there was one point

804
00:58:44,577 --> 00:58:51,017
in the in the questioning on on one of the days I was there where they talked about this guy called

805
00:58:51,017 --> 00:58:58,057
Jamie Wilson um don't know if you'd heard of him but um he features in the Craig Wright story sort

806
00:58:58,057 --> 00:59:00,237
of a big part in the Craig Wright story.

807
00:59:00,897 --> 00:59:06,177
But it's interesting that the way that he brings in people

808
00:59:06,177 --> 00:59:11,277
is always in support of his version of events.

809
00:59:12,037 --> 00:59:15,237
And it helps if that person is no longer with us,

810
00:59:15,917 --> 00:59:20,117
like Dave Kleiman or the lawyer that he supposedly got stuff,

811
00:59:20,117 --> 00:59:23,497
who got stuff off an unknown user off Reddit or something.

812
00:59:23,497 --> 00:59:29,657
Anyway, the stories that Mark Hunter and Arthur Van Pelt will know in much more detail.

813
00:59:30,457 --> 00:59:39,957
But Jamie Wilson, who is still with us, but he's not been involved in the case at all, really, certainly since the Kleinman case.

814
00:59:41,717 --> 00:59:43,857
But he was – sorry, I'll get back to the point.

815
00:59:43,857 --> 00:59:53,837
Craig Wright was asked about what he claimed to be his early work in Bitcoin, which he said involved this guy, Jamie Wilson.

816
00:59:55,197 --> 00:59:58,457
And this was in Australia in 2011.

817
01:00:00,517 --> 01:00:02,517
And they'd filed a patent.

818
01:00:03,837 --> 01:00:06,297
And Craig Wright said this patent was Bitcoin related.

819
01:00:08,257 --> 01:00:11,917
Initially, I thought, hang on, let me have a look at this.

820
01:00:11,917 --> 01:00:16,797
because all the records on patents, once they've been published,

821
01:00:17,057 --> 01:00:18,397
are part of the public record.

822
01:00:18,977 --> 01:00:23,137
And you can rely on the dates on which things were filed

823
01:00:23,137 --> 01:00:26,517
and what was the case at the time things were filed,

824
01:00:26,677 --> 01:00:28,597
who was the inventor and all that stuff.

825
01:00:29,477 --> 01:00:35,497
So I looked into it because Craig Wright was claiming

826
01:00:35,497 --> 01:00:38,897
this was Bitcoin-related and that it was his invention, effectively.

827
01:00:38,897 --> 01:00:47,097
so I looked into it and it realized that I soon found out that it wasn't filed by Greg Wright it

828
01:00:47,097 --> 01:00:54,337
was filed by Jamie Wilson by himself it was to do with this thing called crypto lock so it was

829
01:00:54,337 --> 01:01:03,017
if you die it gives you gives your heirs access to some documents that you have according to

830
01:01:03,017 --> 01:01:11,357
certain rules so it's a sort of a dead man's switch i suppose you know if if you're if you

831
01:01:11,357 --> 01:01:16,517
die or or you're suddenly no longer with us for some reason then all the things all the important

832
01:01:16,517 --> 01:01:21,697
things that you might have in digital form then become available to other people other designated

833
01:01:21,697 --> 01:01:29,297
people so that's basically the invention um and then jamie wilson filed several applications in

834
01:01:29,297 --> 01:01:34,957
2011 by himself because you can see on the public record it's just him as the inventor

835
01:01:34,957 --> 01:01:45,597
and then craig wright comes along later and adds a few details of oh you can split these

836
01:01:45,597 --> 01:01:51,897
split these permissions up into shamir secret share things stuff that was known at the time

837
01:01:51,897 --> 01:01:58,077
using public private key encryption blah blah blah stuff all stuff that's that was well known in

838
01:01:58,077 --> 01:02:05,317
2011 and nothing to do with Bitcoin and then got his name as inventor on the later application that

839
01:02:05,317 --> 01:02:13,237
was filed so he then turned that into oh it was this was all mine and Jamie Wilson was trying to

840
01:02:14,277 --> 01:02:22,317
um I think he claimed that he was he was trying to sell it to Google or something behind his back

841
01:02:22,317 --> 01:02:40,283
all these ridiculous stories started to come out when it was nothing of the sort and it all easily disproved by just looking at the patent databases And the funny thing about it was in the closing submissions

842
01:02:41,643 --> 01:02:44,323
you remember the guy, Lord Grabener, Casey,

843
01:02:45,463 --> 01:02:48,983
was the sort of lead guy for Craig Wright's side.

844
01:02:49,983 --> 01:02:52,623
And he was doing, on the very final day,

845
01:02:52,623 --> 01:02:54,163
He was doing his closing submissions.

846
01:02:55,403 --> 01:03:00,043
And as part of that, he was talking about Craig Wright

847
01:03:00,043 --> 01:03:03,583
and his early Bitcoin inventions involving Jamie Wilson.

848
01:03:05,083 --> 01:03:12,483
And I was that meme where you sat up on the sofa and go,

849
01:03:12,783 --> 01:03:13,383
that's me.

850
01:03:13,763 --> 01:03:14,523
I've done that.

851
01:03:15,743 --> 01:03:20,763
And I just did a little post saying, I know a bit about this,

852
01:03:20,763 --> 01:03:22,483
and here's something I wrote about it earlier.

853
01:03:22,623 --> 01:03:27,423
And then after the break, there was a break in the morning,

854
01:03:27,583 --> 01:03:30,523
and then they came back, and Lord Grabena said,

855
01:03:30,603 --> 01:03:31,683
oh, we have a slight correction.

856
01:03:32,743 --> 01:03:35,223
Craig Wright wasn't the inventor on this one.

857
01:03:35,303 --> 01:03:36,343
It was Jamie Wilson alone.

858
01:03:36,943 --> 01:03:38,323
And I went, what?

859
01:03:38,723 --> 01:03:40,583
Have you just been reading what I've written?

860
01:03:42,643 --> 01:03:43,563
Obviously they had.

861
01:03:46,943 --> 01:03:47,463
Crazy.

862
01:03:47,463 --> 01:03:56,463
because that the the guy lord grabberner was very thorough i mean you may well have noticed

863
01:03:56,463 --> 01:04:03,463
or if he'd only dipped in and out probably not but he was very very thorough in being above board

864
01:04:03,463 --> 01:04:12,003
and making sure that he didn't lie for his client so he's a extremely experienced barrister

865
01:04:12,003 --> 01:04:13,823
been around a long, long time

866
01:04:13,823 --> 01:04:16,363
and would absolutely not lie for his clients.

867
01:04:16,783 --> 01:04:18,083
No decent barrister would.

868
01:04:18,783 --> 01:04:21,003
So as soon as there was any suggestion

869
01:04:21,003 --> 01:04:23,703
that what he told might have been not quite true,

870
01:04:25,183 --> 01:04:27,343
he was right in there correcting it.

871
01:04:27,443 --> 01:04:28,503
There were another couple of occasions

872
01:04:28,503 --> 01:04:29,883
where he did similar things.

873
01:04:31,383 --> 01:04:32,863
So I thought, okay,

874
01:04:33,223 --> 01:04:35,943
well, I might have had a slight effect on the case there,

875
01:04:36,323 --> 01:04:39,643
but it absolutely wouldn't have changed anything.

876
01:04:39,643 --> 01:04:44,823
um it certainly wouldn't change the outcome but it was interesting

877
01:04:44,823 --> 01:04:52,963
and the story now kind of leads to how you started um looking into some of these patterns

878
01:04:52,963 --> 01:05:01,103
and and just like yeah this is these are outright but yeah how was that making you feel

879
01:05:01,103 --> 01:05:09,043
obviously you're watching this whole thing play out in front of you um you know you've got some

880
01:05:09,043 --> 01:05:17,623
information there and uh which could you know help in some way shape or form uh i'm sure this

881
01:05:17,623 --> 01:05:24,043
yeah i guess when you started digging deeper into these patterns and challenging them

882
01:05:24,043 --> 01:05:27,643
where was what kind of emotion was that coming from

883
01:05:27,643 --> 01:05:36,863
it was really just out of morbid interest i suppose you know i wanted to know what what the

884
01:05:36,863 --> 01:05:44,023
purpose of filing all these applications was for nchain and um and if there was anything that

885
01:05:44,023 --> 01:05:51,343
that could be done about it that that would be of interest because at the time and this was

886
01:05:51,343 --> 01:06:00,563
2022 23 um i was look the more i looked at these well i started looking at these these patterns as

887
01:06:00,563 --> 01:06:06,023
they were published and thought surely they must be invalid because you can't go patterns

888
01:06:06,023 --> 01:06:10,123
you can't go patenting Bitcoin because it's been around for ages.

889
01:06:11,163 --> 01:06:13,323
And then the more I read, the more I realized,

890
01:06:14,123 --> 01:06:16,603
actually, I can sort of see what they're doing,

891
01:06:16,843 --> 01:06:22,543
which is they're putting together an almost random collection of features

892
01:06:22,543 --> 01:06:26,283
and then they're getting it through the system

893
01:06:26,283 --> 01:06:30,023
because they can argue for this random collection of features being novel

894
01:06:30,023 --> 01:06:33,843
and then with a skilled patent attorney,

895
01:06:33,843 --> 01:06:35,683
and they were paying for skilled patent attorneys,

896
01:06:36,023 --> 01:06:39,123
They could argue for it being inventive as well

897
01:06:39,123 --> 01:06:41,663
and then get something granted.

898
01:06:42,503 --> 01:06:45,203
That something that got granted may well be completely useless

899
01:06:45,203 --> 01:06:47,763
that no one would ever infringe.

900
01:06:47,763 --> 01:06:52,183
But still, if they were playing the game of just getting the numbers

901
01:06:52,183 --> 01:06:59,683
to show Calvin Ayer in particular that they got hundreds of patents,

902
01:07:00,583 --> 01:07:05,503
then that was presumably what Craig Wright was all about.

903
01:07:05,503 --> 01:07:17,323
You know, all he wanted was to show to Calvin Ayer that he could get all these hundreds of patents, and then at some point they could be turned into vast amounts of money.

904
01:07:19,463 --> 01:07:31,503
It doesn't work that way, of course, in the real world, but for a con man, and we know Craig Wright is a con man, you can spin that out for many years, as we've seen.

905
01:07:31,503 --> 01:07:37,643
you can spin it out that you know i've got all these patents and and they're all worth millions

906
01:07:37,643 --> 01:07:44,303
and eventually they'll the whole package will be worth billions and i'll i'll be everyone i'll be

907
01:07:44,303 --> 01:07:48,983
able to sue everyone and you'll all have to pay me royalties on on whatever you do in bitcoin

908
01:07:48,983 --> 01:07:55,623
okay i mean people will believe that because the reality is that to look into them into the depth

909
01:07:55,623 --> 01:08:01,163
needed to figure out whether each particular patent is worth something you have to spend a

910
01:08:01,163 --> 01:08:06,743
lot of time and you have to be knowledgeable about how these things work and you have to be someone

911
01:08:06,743 --> 01:08:14,523
like me who's bloody minded and has the knowledge of bitcoin yeah some a friend of mine was saying

912
01:08:14,523 --> 01:08:21,043
well if we think of it in terms of venn diagrams um if you've got three circles you know one circle

913
01:08:21,043 --> 01:08:31,023
is bitcoiners another circle is experienced patent attorneys and another circle is people that are

914
01:08:31,023 --> 01:08:35,843
are sufficiently interested to do anything about it i think that the intersection of those three

915
01:08:35,843 --> 01:08:44,523
is probably just me no one else can be bothered um especially if there's no money involved

916
01:08:44,523 --> 01:08:50,743
nobody's yeah exactly like you're not doing you're doing this in your spare time right it's not as if

917
01:08:50,743 --> 01:08:55,863
anybody who's hired you to right let's go to work here and disprove all of this and like

918
01:08:55,863 --> 01:09:04,903
yeah so so i'd got the point i'd got to about the end of mid to end of 2022 i was reading all

919
01:09:04,903 --> 01:09:10,363
these patterns and thought oh this is this is all a bit pointless because it's you can't really

920
01:09:10,363 --> 01:09:14,823
attack something that's just a random collection of features because you're not going to find a

921
01:09:14,823 --> 01:09:20,043
document that that knocks it out for novelty because they've just added this extra arbitrary

922
01:09:20,043 --> 01:09:25,263
feature and then it becomes difficult then it becomes well you've got to argue for an inventive

923
01:09:25,263 --> 01:09:32,963
step and and that's always subjective and this could this is not worth the effort effectively

924
01:09:32,963 --> 01:09:38,563
and if no one's going to infringe it anyway then it's pointless just let them sit on these patents

925
01:09:38,563 --> 01:09:43,983
and no one's ever going to infringe them and no one need ever attack them so that that's kind of

926
01:09:43,983 --> 01:09:49,083
where where i was i was at i was i was leading towards that position and then then the thing

927
01:09:49,083 --> 01:09:53,323
the thing that triggered me into into getting into well triggered me into getting in touch with

928
01:09:53,323 --> 01:09:57,783
Arthur, actually, was that somebody made a mistake.

929
01:09:59,303 --> 01:10:04,863
So one of their – I'm not going to mention names because I'm a regulated patent attorney.

930
01:10:04,983 --> 01:10:09,643
I'm not supposed to speak about other regulated patent attorneys in derogatory terms.

931
01:10:10,843 --> 01:10:12,903
So I'm going to hold myself back here.

932
01:10:12,903 --> 01:10:19,923
But someone made a mistake and made an amendment on one of their European patent applications

933
01:10:19,923 --> 01:10:23,343
that shouldn't have been made,

934
01:10:24,043 --> 01:10:29,203
and that ended up not being noticed by the European patent examiner

935
01:10:29,203 --> 01:10:32,223
and the two other examiners who signed it off,

936
01:10:32,463 --> 01:10:37,783
as well as the other patent attorney at the firm this one was working with.

937
01:10:38,983 --> 01:10:42,863
So five people didn't notice this error.

938
01:10:43,823 --> 01:10:44,943
The patent got granted.

939
01:10:44,943 --> 01:10:51,103
and then I think it popped up on one of my feeds

940
01:10:51,103 --> 01:10:54,983
and I took a look and within 15 minutes I went, that's dead.

941
01:10:56,383 --> 01:11:02,163
I knew it was dead because there was this esoteric thing

942
01:11:02,163 --> 01:11:04,543
about added matter at the European Patent Office,

943
01:11:04,663 --> 01:11:05,663
which I don't need to go into.

944
01:11:05,823 --> 01:11:08,643
If you make an amendment that adds matter,

945
01:11:08,823 --> 01:11:12,043
you can't remove it after grant and it becomes an impossible trap

946
01:11:12,043 --> 01:11:12,803
that you get into.

947
01:11:12,803 --> 01:11:16,043
so it's called the Article 123 Trap

948
01:11:16,043 --> 01:11:21,123
and I was sure that this had fallen into it

949
01:11:21,123 --> 01:11:24,463
and I spoke to a couple of colleagues of mine

950
01:11:24,463 --> 01:11:27,003
and said look at this and tell me what you think

951
01:11:27,003 --> 01:11:29,623
and again within 15 minutes they came back and went

952
01:11:29,623 --> 01:11:30,523
oh that's dead

953
01:11:30,523 --> 01:11:34,283
so I thought okay well this will be quite fun

954
01:11:34,283 --> 01:11:38,003
but what you have to do is you have to pay

955
01:11:38,003 --> 01:11:41,383
pay a fee to oppose a patent

956
01:11:41,383 --> 01:11:44,183
you pay an opposition fee which is about

957
01:11:44,183 --> 01:11:45,823
I think it's about 900 euros

958
01:11:45,823 --> 01:11:47,463
so I'm not going to

959
01:11:47,463 --> 01:11:49,203
pay that myself

960
01:11:49,203 --> 01:11:52,403
I'm already doing all this work for free

961
01:11:52,403 --> 01:11:54,283
just for the fun of it

962
01:11:54,283 --> 01:11:57,023
and then

963
01:11:57,023 --> 01:11:58,323
so Arthur went

964
01:11:58,323 --> 01:12:00,263
and announced

965
01:12:00,263 --> 01:12:01,563
on Twitter

966
01:12:01,563 --> 01:12:04,123
would anyone like to fund

967
01:12:04,123 --> 01:12:06,003
an opposition on one of

968
01:12:06,003 --> 01:12:08,383
Nchain's patents and we ended up

969
01:12:08,383 --> 01:12:09,683
getting over 2000 pounds

970
01:12:09,683 --> 01:12:13,143
just like that, just within a day or two.

971
01:12:16,763 --> 01:12:19,003
In Bitcoin, by any chance, as well, was that?

972
01:12:20,763 --> 01:12:21,243
Sorry?

973
01:12:21,563 --> 01:12:22,563
Were they Bitcoin donations?

974
01:12:23,823 --> 01:12:25,203
They were all made in Bitcoin, yeah.

975
01:12:25,563 --> 01:12:26,683
Someone changed, someone lightning.

976
01:12:28,143 --> 01:12:32,363
And there was, I should big up one particular donor,

977
01:12:32,363 --> 01:12:37,783
which was Bittylicious, the exchange.

978
01:12:37,783 --> 01:12:41,283
I think they're based in the island man UK based anyway.

979
01:12:41,283 --> 01:12:47,283
So they they stumped up the entire opposition fee for one of them, which is nice of them.

980
01:12:47,283 --> 01:12:59,709
And they one of the defendants in the BSV claims case which has failed at the Supreme Court recently So they they yeah they stumped up one of the defendants in the BSV claims case which has failed at the Supreme Court recently So they stumped up one of the fees

981
01:13:00,389 --> 01:13:02,109
I then did a bit of work.

982
01:13:02,269 --> 01:13:04,949
I mean, the whole opposition took me probably a couple of hours to write.

983
01:13:05,049 --> 01:13:07,269
It wasn't long. It didn't need to be long.

984
01:13:07,449 --> 01:13:11,429
It was just a, here's a grenade, we're going to throw it in

985
01:13:11,429 --> 01:13:13,029
and then stand back and see what happens.

986
01:13:13,749 --> 01:13:18,869
Because once you point out the fact that this thing is irretrievably,

987
01:13:18,869 --> 01:13:24,209
flawed, there's nothing more that you really need to do.

988
01:13:25,549 --> 01:13:29,969
You file the opposition, and then you can just stand back

989
01:13:29,969 --> 01:13:32,069
and let nature take its course effectively.

990
01:13:33,149 --> 01:13:38,029
So, I mean, we didn't do that, but filed the opposition,

991
01:13:39,069 --> 01:13:41,129
and it took about...

992
01:13:41,129 --> 01:13:43,489
These things take about 18 months to work their way through.

993
01:13:44,269 --> 01:13:45,969
So filed it in late 2022.

994
01:13:46,869 --> 01:13:48,489
That then worked its way through the system.

995
01:13:48,489 --> 01:13:59,689
The attorney who'd made the mistake tried to dig themselves out of a hole that was impossible to dig themselves out of and just made the thing worse.

996
01:14:01,029 --> 01:14:06,129
And then they ended up switching attorneys just before they were going to have oral proceedings.

997
01:14:06,589 --> 01:14:10,569
So the hearing before the senior examiners.

998
01:14:11,149 --> 01:14:18,169
And then I think it was maybe a week, it might have been just a week or so before the hearing was due to be held.

999
01:14:18,489 --> 01:14:22,529
And the new attorney obviously realized that this thing was dead,

1000
01:14:22,629 --> 01:14:24,529
and then they decided to revoke it themselves.

1001
01:14:25,969 --> 01:14:29,689
So they just threw in the towel and said, no, we want it revoked.

1002
01:14:31,689 --> 01:14:37,829
So they gave up, which was a bit disappointing

1003
01:14:37,829 --> 01:14:42,149
because we didn't end up going to the hearing to win the case.

1004
01:14:42,229 --> 01:14:44,829
But since I was doing it for free, that was fine.

1005
01:14:44,829 --> 01:14:50,549
I mean, it would have taken me more time that I wasn't being paid for to do that.

1006
01:14:51,089 --> 01:14:51,929
So that was the first one.

1007
01:14:52,069 --> 01:14:55,049
How many of these did you – that must have given you some motivation

1008
01:14:55,049 --> 01:14:57,009
to carry on, like, leafing through?

1009
01:14:57,729 --> 01:15:01,049
Yeah, the first one was only because it was an easy win.

1010
01:15:02,149 --> 01:15:03,869
And I thought, well, we'll just do one.

1011
01:15:04,669 --> 01:15:11,109
But because we ended up getting all these donations, we had enough to do three.

1012
01:15:11,109 --> 01:15:13,969
and I thought

1013
01:15:13,969 --> 01:15:16,489
can we, so it turned out

1014
01:15:16,489 --> 01:15:18,049
that this one application

1015
01:15:18,049 --> 01:15:20,289
this one patent was part of a group

1016
01:15:20,289 --> 01:15:20,749
of three

1017
01:15:20,749 --> 01:15:23,709
all from the same

1018
01:15:23,709 --> 01:15:26,109
priority filing back in 2016

1019
01:15:26,109 --> 01:15:28,369
that were all related

1020
01:15:28,369 --> 01:15:30,149
to a very similar invention

1021
01:15:30,149 --> 01:15:32,069
which is about, I don't know if you

1022
01:15:32,069 --> 01:15:34,289
know Craig Wright's obsession with

1023
01:15:34,289 --> 01:15:35,969
Bitcoin being Turing complete

1024
01:15:35,969 --> 01:15:37,269
Yeah

1025
01:15:37,269 --> 01:15:40,109
There's a

1026
01:15:40,109 --> 01:15:43,129
terrible paper that he's written on the subject

1027
01:15:43,129 --> 01:15:45,269
and there's a YouTube video of him

1028
01:15:45,269 --> 01:15:47,389
going on about it. He's gone on about

1029
01:15:47,389 --> 01:15:48,909
it lots of times. I think he may well have

1030
01:15:48,909 --> 01:15:51,169
brought it up in the trial a few times as well.

1031
01:15:51,969 --> 01:15:53,349
But he's got this obsession with

1032
01:15:53,349 --> 01:15:54,269
Turing completeness

1033
01:15:54,269 --> 01:15:57,389
and he claims BSV is Turing complete

1034
01:15:57,389 --> 01:15:59,109
and it's just a

1035
01:15:59,109 --> 01:16:03,729
it's just the difference between

1036
01:16:03,729 --> 01:16:04,989
doing

1037
01:16:04,989 --> 01:16:07,129
logical operations

1038
01:16:07,129 --> 01:16:09,229
and also being able to do

1039
01:16:09,229 --> 01:16:16,889
looped operations. So if you can do simple logical operations, XOR, AND, NAND, NOR, etc.,

1040
01:16:16,889 --> 01:16:25,189
AND, you can do loops, then you can do effectively any computation, which is what all Turing

1041
01:16:25,189 --> 01:16:31,849
completeness means. And Bitcoin is deliberately not Turing complete because Satorci decided

1042
01:16:31,849 --> 01:16:37,969
that he didn't want Bitcoin scripts to be open-ended

1043
01:16:37,969 --> 01:16:39,269
in when they were run,

1044
01:16:40,429 --> 01:16:44,049
because that could cause unstoppable bugs.

1045
01:16:45,289 --> 01:16:47,109
So if you run a script and it doesn't end,

1046
01:16:48,009 --> 01:16:49,489
then that's a bit of a problem.

1047
01:16:49,909 --> 01:16:54,329
You want scripts that can only run and stop at a definite end.

1048
01:16:54,429 --> 01:16:55,429
So you don't want loops.

1049
01:16:57,729 --> 01:16:59,289
So that was a deliberate decision.

1050
01:16:59,289 --> 01:17:02,069
And Craig Wright's idea was, no, let's put loops in.

1051
01:17:02,669 --> 01:17:08,229
Or these patents were to do with the one that got revoked first

1052
01:17:08,229 --> 01:17:12,609
was using a Bitcoin transaction to do an XOR operation.

1053
01:17:14,049 --> 01:17:18,429
Okay, an XOR is just you put in a one, you've got two inputs.

1054
01:17:18,969 --> 01:17:21,809
If either of those two inputs is one, the output is one.

1055
01:17:22,329 --> 01:17:25,309
If both of them are zero or one, the output is zero.

1056
01:17:26,229 --> 01:17:27,229
So that's an XOR.

1057
01:17:27,229 --> 01:17:29,829
and the XOR is available in

1058
01:17:29,829 --> 01:17:31,729
Bitcoin script, it's one of the opcodes

1059
01:17:31,729 --> 01:17:33,249
from the original

1060
01:17:33,249 --> 01:17:35,849
implementation but that was

1061
01:17:35,849 --> 01:17:36,249
removed

1062
01:17:36,249 --> 01:17:39,249
so that was prior art

1063
01:17:39,249 --> 01:17:41,529
and then the

1064
01:17:41,529 --> 01:17:43,429
invention was really just

1065
01:17:43,429 --> 01:17:45,349
using that output of a

1066
01:17:45,349 --> 01:17:47,689
Bitcoin transaction to do something

1067
01:17:47,689 --> 01:17:49,549
so

1068
01:17:49,549 --> 01:17:51,949
the funny example

1069
01:17:51,949 --> 01:17:53,629
in the patent was

1070
01:17:53,629 --> 01:17:55,749
a dog feeder

1071
01:17:55,749 --> 01:17:56,929
and

1072
01:17:57,229 --> 01:17:59,149
seriously, a dog feeder.

1073
01:18:00,709 --> 01:18:02,749
I've got this example in front of me.

1074
01:18:02,849 --> 01:18:04,069
I don't need to read them all.

1075
01:18:06,329 --> 01:18:09,729
Paragraph 86, if our listeners want to look into this

1076
01:18:09,729 --> 01:18:10,669
in any more detail,

1077
01:18:11,249 --> 01:18:15,709
paragraph 86 of European Patent 3449450B1

1078
01:18:15,709 --> 01:18:19,049
says, as an example of this invention,

1079
01:18:19,429 --> 01:18:21,549
we will describe how control system works

1080
01:18:21,549 --> 01:18:23,569
using an example of Carroll's two dogs

1081
01:18:23,569 --> 01:18:25,689
named Archimedes and Bertrand,

1082
01:18:25,689 --> 01:18:27,969
who are left alone all day in the backyard

1083
01:18:27,969 --> 01:18:29,769
and they are both friendly to each other

1084
01:18:29,769 --> 01:18:32,689
provided they do not eat at the same time

1085
01:18:32,689 --> 01:18:35,549
which for some reason causes them to become aggressive

1086
01:18:35,549 --> 01:18:36,489
and fight each other.

1087
01:18:37,389 --> 01:18:39,429
And they have RFID collars

1088
01:18:39,429 --> 01:18:43,709
and they're detectable by an Internet of Things device.

1089
01:18:44,429 --> 01:18:48,709
So the idea is that when one dog comes up to the feeder

1090
01:18:48,709 --> 01:18:50,429
it can get fed.

1091
01:18:51,129 --> 01:18:52,849
When the other dog comes up to the feeder

1092
01:18:52,849 --> 01:18:53,929
it can get fed.

1093
01:18:53,929 --> 01:18:59,969
But when both dogs come up to the feeder, they don't get fed, which is an XOR operation.

1094
01:19:00,529 --> 01:19:13,569
So what we do is we use these RFID tags on the dogs to interact with the IoT device on the dog feeder that then sends a Bitcoin transaction.

1095
01:19:14,689 --> 01:19:20,409
And then the output of that Bitcoin transaction tells the dog feeder whether to feed the dog.

1096
01:19:23,329 --> 01:19:23,789
Okay.

1097
01:19:23,929 --> 01:19:27,409
That is effectively the invention.

1098
01:19:27,989 --> 01:19:31,309
And you read that and think, right?

1099
01:19:31,809 --> 01:19:33,469
I mean, that's pretty pointless.

1100
01:19:34,909 --> 01:19:38,349
Talk about overly complicating things.

1101
01:19:40,469 --> 01:19:44,649
But yeah, that was the invention in all three of these patents.

1102
01:19:45,389 --> 01:19:49,409
So the first one was invalid for a different reason.

1103
01:19:49,409 --> 01:19:51,669
It wasn't novel or inventive.

1104
01:19:51,669 --> 01:19:54,129
the second and third ones

1105
01:19:54,129 --> 01:19:56,009
they were for

1106
01:19:56,009 --> 01:19:58,649
variations on that, it wasn't an XOR

1107
01:19:58,649 --> 01:20:00,309
it was another logical operation

1108
01:20:00,309 --> 01:20:01,309
or whatever

1109
01:20:01,309 --> 01:20:03,529
so they were slightly different

1110
01:20:03,529 --> 01:20:05,609
in what they claimed

1111
01:20:05,609 --> 01:20:09,009
and what I used was

1112
01:20:09,009 --> 01:20:10,709
Andreas Antonopoulos'

1113
01:20:10,849 --> 01:20:11,069
book

1114
01:20:11,069 --> 01:20:13,289
and

1115
01:20:13,289 --> 01:20:16,389
used that properly because the European

1116
01:20:16,389 --> 01:20:17,849
Patent Office Examiner had

1117
01:20:17,849 --> 01:20:19,509
cited that book

1118
01:20:19,509 --> 01:20:21,689
during prosecution.

1119
01:20:22,209 --> 01:20:25,469
And the skilled patent attorney that got it through the system

1120
01:20:25,469 --> 01:20:28,149
managed to persuade the examiner that there was something there

1121
01:20:28,149 --> 01:20:30,849
and allowed it to be granted.

1122
01:20:31,889 --> 01:20:34,069
And I looked at the book again and went,

1123
01:20:35,089 --> 01:20:38,069
no, because it's got all the stuff in there.

1124
01:20:38,209 --> 01:20:43,189
And there's no way this is, even if it's new,

1125
01:20:43,189 --> 01:20:45,469
there's no way it's inventive because it's got,

1126
01:20:45,809 --> 01:20:48,489
the book has got everything in it, all the options.

1127
01:20:49,509 --> 01:20:54,949
So the second one got revoked for, I think it was lack of novelty.

1128
01:20:56,069 --> 01:20:57,669
They threw lots and lots of options.

1129
01:20:57,809 --> 01:21:02,889
I mean, they fought back on that one and did quite a good job of trying to rescue it, but failed.

1130
01:21:04,009 --> 01:21:11,829
And on the other one, the European Patents Office actually found a new problem with it,

1131
01:21:11,909 --> 01:21:15,929
again, added matter, and that got revoked as well.

1132
01:21:15,929 --> 01:21:19,409
So three out of three got revoked.

1133
01:21:19,509 --> 01:21:22,289
which was pretty good

1134
01:21:22,289 --> 01:21:24,229
and they've appealed

1135
01:21:24,229 --> 01:21:26,649
I thought there was no point

1136
01:21:26,649 --> 01:21:28,929
with them appealing these cases

1137
01:21:28,929 --> 01:21:30,889
because you can appeal the decision

1138
01:21:30,889 --> 01:21:31,669
to revoke them

1139
01:21:31,669 --> 01:21:33,949
the first one they obviously didn't appeal

1140
01:21:33,949 --> 01:21:35,749
because they revoked it themselves

1141
01:21:35,749 --> 01:21:37,529
the second and third one

1142
01:21:37,529 --> 01:21:39,489
they filed an appeal early last year

1143
01:21:39,489 --> 01:21:42,809
so

1144
01:21:42,809 --> 01:21:44,549
it's still going on

1145
01:21:44,549 --> 01:21:47,029
these things work their way through the system

1146
01:21:47,029 --> 01:21:48,929
it'll probably take another year to get anywhere

1147
01:21:48,929 --> 01:21:52,449
but I might do something on it.

1148
01:21:52,509 --> 01:21:52,969
I might not.

1149
01:21:53,249 --> 01:21:53,669
Who knows?

1150
01:21:54,609 --> 01:21:56,049
Are you looking at any more now

1151
01:21:56,049 --> 01:21:57,109
or are you just like done?

1152
01:21:57,189 --> 01:21:58,209
That was just a bit of fun.

1153
01:21:59,009 --> 01:22:02,889
It was, well, the purpose of doing it

1154
01:22:02,889 --> 01:22:05,269
was just out of interest.

1155
01:22:05,669 --> 01:22:08,209
And I was on the point of giving up in 2022 anyway

1156
01:22:08,209 --> 01:22:10,329
because I thought, well, this is pointless anyway.

1157
01:22:10,789 --> 01:22:12,429
So the only reason I filed the first one

1158
01:22:12,429 --> 01:22:14,089
is because I thought this was an easy target.

1159
01:22:14,189 --> 01:22:15,289
So it's an open goal.

1160
01:22:15,869 --> 01:22:16,589
You might as well.

1161
01:22:16,589 --> 01:22:20,129
and the other two were just because we got the money to do them

1162
01:22:20,129 --> 01:22:23,829
so I thought I have to do something rather than just giving the money back.

1163
01:22:24,529 --> 01:22:27,969
But I didn't really see any point in wasting any more time on this.

1164
01:22:29,529 --> 01:22:32,609
There's really little point in attacking these patents.

1165
01:22:34,749 --> 01:22:39,269
Lots of them are so narrow or just clearly invalid.

1166
01:22:39,989 --> 01:22:42,249
Some of them are claiming all sorts of things.

1167
01:22:42,609 --> 01:22:45,269
We haven't got time to go into the details of some of them,

1168
01:22:45,269 --> 01:22:46,769
but they're claiming all sorts of things.

1169
01:22:47,009 --> 01:22:51,129
And Craig Wright has made all sorts of noises over the years of, you know,

1170
01:22:51,149 --> 01:22:56,069
he's got a patent for this and that and vaguely threatening to sue people

1171
01:22:56,069 --> 01:22:57,209
over what he's got.

1172
01:22:57,629 --> 01:22:58,709
Never actually done it.

1173
01:22:59,509 --> 01:23:02,889
They've never actually initiated infringement proceedings on anyone.

1174
01:23:04,209 --> 01:23:07,949
I mean, it's not to say they won't, but it's a bit of a sign that, you know,

1175
01:23:07,949 --> 01:23:10,109
makes all these threats and then nothing ever happens,

1176
01:23:10,109 --> 01:23:13,029
which suggests that

1177
01:23:13,029 --> 01:23:14,869
there's not much substance

1178
01:23:14,869 --> 01:23:16,429
behind these threats

1179
01:23:16,429 --> 01:23:19,889
and

1180
01:23:19,915 --> 01:23:23,575
What a strange old saga, really.

1181
01:23:24,155 --> 01:23:25,855
Just the whole thing.

1182
01:23:28,095 --> 01:23:32,595
And yeah, still pretty speechless about it, really.

1183
01:23:32,875 --> 01:23:37,115
I mean, he took up so much time and energy and money

1184
01:23:37,115 --> 01:23:40,115
of so many different people.

1185
01:23:43,795 --> 01:23:45,475
And like I said...

1186
01:23:45,475 --> 01:23:50,915
The frustrating thing is that he's still doing it

1187
01:23:50,915 --> 01:23:56,395
because after we thought it had all been finished

1188
01:23:56,395 --> 01:24:00,055
with the contempt hearing, and he was found in contempt

1189
01:24:00,055 --> 01:24:03,035
and got this suspended prison sentence,

1190
01:24:03,955 --> 01:24:08,135
and he's got the restraining order against,

1191
01:24:08,135 --> 01:24:10,515
the general civil restraining order against him

1192
01:24:10,515 --> 01:24:14,875
to prevent him from filing any new claims,

1193
01:24:15,475 --> 01:24:20,575
so that's all on so he can't he's effectively been neutered in in terms of what he can do

1194
01:24:20,575 --> 01:24:27,355
through the courts at least in the uk uh but recently he's come back again and he's you know

1195
01:24:27,355 --> 01:24:30,815
we've seen him interview i don't know if you've seen him being interviewed with um

1196
01:24:30,815 --> 01:24:41,235
uh the coast guy what's his name neil oh no way really neil oliver neil oliver that's that's the

1197
01:24:41,235 --> 01:24:43,575
He's had Craig Wright on.

1198
01:24:44,235 --> 01:24:46,435
Neil Oliver's had Craig Wright on recently,

1199
01:24:46,595 --> 01:24:49,915
a couple of months ago, talking about BSV.

1200
01:24:50,875 --> 01:24:53,555
And Neil Oliver's completely taken in by all this

1201
01:24:53,555 --> 01:24:56,315
and repeating all the same lines that we hear

1202
01:24:56,315 --> 01:24:57,815
from all the BSV lunatics.

1203
01:24:58,995 --> 01:25:01,895
And, you know, you were there at Bitfest

1204
01:25:01,895 --> 01:25:03,175
when Dominic Frisbee was there.

1205
01:25:03,655 --> 01:25:04,855
He must have had a chat with him.

1206
01:25:05,875 --> 01:25:10,475
And I went up to him and just said,

1207
01:25:10,475 --> 01:25:11,555
asked him why

1208
01:25:11,555 --> 01:25:14,595
Neil Oliver has been taken

1209
01:25:14,595 --> 01:25:15,875
in by Craig Wright because

1210
01:25:15,875 --> 01:25:18,175
Dominic said

1211
01:25:18,175 --> 01:25:20,595
I've met the guy several

1212
01:25:20,595 --> 01:25:21,715
times on GB News

1213
01:25:21,715 --> 01:25:24,615
he had a little slot on GB News and Dominic Frisby

1214
01:25:24,615 --> 01:25:25,795
has been on there with him

1215
01:25:25,795 --> 01:25:28,615
and clearly didn't

1216
01:25:28,615 --> 01:25:30,995
manage, there are some people you just can't

1217
01:25:30,995 --> 01:25:32,455
you can't persuade

1218
01:25:32,455 --> 01:25:34,415
and he's

1219
01:25:34,415 --> 01:25:36,695
Neil Oliver's best mates with Efrat Fennigson

1220
01:25:36,695 --> 01:25:38,635
as well, you must know of

1221
01:25:38,635 --> 01:25:42,375
Neil Oliver's been on Robert Breedlove's show

1222
01:25:42,375 --> 01:25:43,995
yeah

1223
01:25:43,995 --> 01:25:44,955
and I think

1224
01:25:44,955 --> 01:25:47,095
what is it

1225
01:25:47,095 --> 01:25:49,655
are these people just too

1226
01:25:49,655 --> 01:25:51,975
credulous I mean is there a particular type

1227
01:25:51,975 --> 01:25:53,815
of person who's just so

1228
01:25:53,815 --> 01:25:54,595
credulous that

1229
01:25:54,595 --> 01:25:57,735
any sort of conspiracy theory

1230
01:25:57,735 --> 01:25:59,275
will bring them in

1231
01:25:59,275 --> 01:26:00,355
I don't know

1232
01:26:00,355 --> 01:26:03,575
there's an element to that because there was

1233
01:26:03,575 --> 01:26:07,575
someone else that was involved

1234
01:26:07,575 --> 01:26:09,175
appeared in the trial.

1235
01:26:09,835 --> 01:26:11,575
She was there with Dolores Carhill.

1236
01:26:11,795 --> 01:26:13,055
Yes, she's another one.

1237
01:26:13,655 --> 01:26:16,095
She's another one. She was there at the back of the trial

1238
01:26:16,095 --> 01:26:17,835
and had to be told to stop nodding.

1239
01:26:18,095 --> 01:26:18,775
That's what I'm saying.

1240
01:26:19,335 --> 01:26:20,175
Justice Miller.

1241
01:26:21,275 --> 01:26:23,075
Yeah, a funny moment in one of the days,

1242
01:26:23,655 --> 01:26:25,355
I'm not sure one of the days I was there,

1243
01:26:25,435 --> 01:26:27,535
but she was in the back of the courtroom

1244
01:26:27,535 --> 01:26:28,675
with Scott Gillis,

1245
01:26:29,215 --> 01:26:31,515
nodding away and had to be told to stop.

1246
01:26:35,075 --> 01:26:35,955
She's another one

1247
01:26:35,955 --> 01:26:41,055
who's been pulled into this BSV conspiracy theory realm.

1248
01:26:44,515 --> 01:26:52,475
Yeah, you see, I think that I've come up against this movement

1249
01:26:52,475 --> 01:26:58,915
of truthers or freedom fighters, you know, and yeah,

1250
01:26:58,955 --> 01:27:02,295
I think as soon as you throw the word like cabal at them,

1251
01:27:02,295 --> 01:27:03,775
they're in, like, you got me.

1252
01:27:04,315 --> 01:27:05,735
But, you know, yeah, fuck those guys.

1253
01:27:05,955 --> 01:27:14,455
you know it's uh yeah and especially if you can identify a front man you know i'm apparently the

1254
01:27:14,455 --> 01:27:22,395
the guy who's who's in in charge or i was the story was that i was telling mr justice miller

1255
01:27:22,395 --> 01:27:29,235
what to do uh maybe on instructions from jack dorsey or maybe i was telling jack dorsey what

1256
01:27:29,235 --> 01:27:31,415
to do. So apparently the cabal

1257
01:27:31,415 --> 01:27:32,915
is me, Jack Dorsey, and

1258
01:27:32,915 --> 01:27:34,175
Mr. Justice Miller.

1259
01:27:35,275 --> 01:27:37,215
Okay, that's a bit strange.

1260
01:27:37,955 --> 01:27:38,075
Wow.

1261
01:27:39,635 --> 01:27:40,075
Yeah.

1262
01:27:42,355 --> 01:27:43,355
I think it was

1263
01:27:43,355 --> 01:27:43,675
true.

1264
01:27:44,975 --> 01:27:47,375
I'm just a regular guy. I don't move in those circles

1265
01:27:47,375 --> 01:27:49,315
really. I happen to have met the judge a couple of

1266
01:27:49,315 --> 01:27:50,975
times, but he's met lots of people.

1267
01:27:52,495 --> 01:27:53,475
Oh my goodness.

1268
01:27:53,935 --> 01:27:55,295
Well, if there's...

1269
01:27:55,295 --> 01:27:57,415
Well, this is the thing. There will be no BSB

1270
01:27:57,415 --> 01:27:59,015
investors listening to this story.

1271
01:27:59,235 --> 01:28:07,335
because I remember when I did the episode with Mark and Arthur

1272
01:28:07,335 --> 01:28:10,375
about their book, Fake Toshi,

1273
01:28:10,515 --> 01:28:12,935
which is now becoming like four volumes, I think,

1274
01:28:13,335 --> 01:28:15,535
because they do the deep research.

1275
01:28:16,635 --> 01:28:17,015
Oh, 33.

1276
01:28:17,655 --> 01:28:18,375
They're restricted.

1277
01:28:19,095 --> 01:28:19,655
Right.

1278
01:28:19,935 --> 01:28:21,455
They're going to cut themselves off at three.

1279
01:28:21,555 --> 01:28:22,055
Good for them.

1280
01:28:24,055 --> 01:28:28,555
As soon as I put that episode out, like, boom, straight underneath.

1281
01:28:29,235 --> 01:28:34,415
like BSV crowd, toxic, you know, really.

1282
01:28:35,915 --> 01:28:38,075
And I'm thinking, are these bots?

1283
01:28:39,255 --> 01:28:45,395
I hope they're bots because this is weird.

1284
01:28:46,615 --> 01:28:48,255
It's difficult to tell.

1285
01:28:48,395 --> 01:28:53,495
I think there are, they like you to think there are more of them

1286
01:28:53,495 --> 01:28:54,535
than there actually are.

1287
01:28:54,535 --> 01:28:57,335
so they may

1288
01:28:57,335 --> 01:28:59,515
they may have multiple

1289
01:28:59,515 --> 01:29:01,835
accounts, that's one way of doing it

1290
01:29:01,835 --> 01:29:03,655
whether

1291
01:29:03,655 --> 01:29:05,575
that you call it a bot or not

1292
01:29:05,575 --> 01:29:07,955
it's a matter of just definitions

1293
01:29:07,955 --> 01:29:09,715
but I'm pretty sure

1294
01:29:09,715 --> 01:29:11,775
that some of the leading ones

1295
01:29:11,775 --> 01:29:13,675
have multiple accounts and they

1296
01:29:13,675 --> 01:29:15,815
just try and amplify

1297
01:29:15,815 --> 01:29:17,055
the noise that way

1298
01:29:17,055 --> 01:29:21,315
especially people like

1299
01:29:21,315 --> 01:29:23,635
Kurt Wookert, he's definitely

1300
01:29:23,635 --> 01:29:32,435
got a few sock puppets around who sorry kurt wicket jr you must have heard of him no uh coin

1301
01:29:32,435 --> 01:29:46,630
geek uh he deeply unpleasant character uh but he he a sort of front man for for calls himself a bitcoin historian but you know you don want to look into him He not a nice character

1302
01:29:47,390 --> 01:29:48,170
Right, okay.

1303
01:29:48,430 --> 01:29:54,130
No, I'm certainly done with all of that kind of side of things,

1304
01:29:54,130 --> 01:29:56,410
and I was hoping, like many, that, you know,

1305
01:29:56,450 --> 01:29:59,310
as soon as that hammer fell, that would be the end of it.

1306
01:30:00,350 --> 01:30:02,330
But whatever, man, like, you know.

1307
01:30:02,330 --> 01:30:04,150
it's not because

1308
01:30:04,150 --> 01:30:06,370
Craig Wright is making a comeback

1309
01:30:06,370 --> 01:30:08,650
and the patents still keep getting

1310
01:30:08,650 --> 01:30:10,410
granted, they've dropped a few

1311
01:30:10,410 --> 01:30:12,290
over the last year or so

1312
01:30:12,290 --> 01:30:14,430
I mean there's a little bit of tailing off but

1313
01:30:14,430 --> 01:30:16,750
they're still spending millions per year

1314
01:30:16,750 --> 01:30:18,490
I mean several million

1315
01:30:18,490 --> 01:30:19,990
just keeping this thing going

1316
01:30:19,990 --> 01:30:22,390
And Dan, is that still

1317
01:30:22,390 --> 01:30:24,610
Calvin, like bankrolling that?

1318
01:30:25,430 --> 01:30:26,050
It has to be

1319
01:30:26,050 --> 01:30:27,830
who else is doing it?

1320
01:30:28,790 --> 01:30:30,050
I think it's all coming from Calvin

1321
01:30:30,050 --> 01:30:34,030
doubling down

1322
01:30:34,030 --> 01:30:36,650
doubling down yeah

1323
01:30:36,650 --> 01:30:39,310
maybe

1324
01:30:39,310 --> 01:30:41,510
what's the thing

1325
01:30:41,510 --> 01:30:42,970
sunk cost fallacy

1326
01:30:42,970 --> 01:30:44,690
maybe he's deep into that

1327
01:30:44,690 --> 01:30:46,310
who knows

1328
01:30:46,310 --> 01:30:49,010
maybe he still believes that Craig is Satoshi

1329
01:30:49,010 --> 01:30:51,550
some people do

1330
01:30:51,550 --> 01:30:56,630
it's the most laughable thing

1331
01:30:56,630 --> 01:30:57,930
it really is

1332
01:30:57,930 --> 01:30:59,770
right well

1333
01:30:59,770 --> 01:31:03,410
David, what else did we need to cover?

1334
01:31:03,630 --> 01:31:06,010
Was there anything else that we were going to touch upon?

1335
01:31:07,290 --> 01:31:09,170
I don't think we did it in the order you said,

1336
01:31:09,170 --> 01:31:15,530
but yeah, we did the Avi first, but thanks to Lauren.

1337
01:31:16,270 --> 01:31:20,110
But yeah, I mean, we didn't really cover the whole,

1338
01:31:20,290 --> 01:31:23,230
as you put it, the whole libertarian, non-patent thing,

1339
01:31:23,570 --> 01:31:26,970
but for anyone who's interested in that,

1340
01:31:26,970 --> 01:31:30,050
I did do an interview with Stefan Kinsella last year.

1341
01:31:30,970 --> 01:31:34,590
So if any of the listeners, viewers are interested,

1342
01:31:34,770 --> 01:31:35,790
they can look that one up.

1343
01:31:37,150 --> 01:31:43,770
I kind of have to be ambivalent on that at best

1344
01:31:43,770 --> 01:31:46,190
because it's my job.

1345
01:31:47,790 --> 01:31:50,370
I'm not going to come out and say, no, patents are terrible.

1346
01:31:50,490 --> 01:31:51,270
We shouldn't have them.

1347
01:31:53,010 --> 01:31:54,610
But I can see both sides.

1348
01:31:54,610 --> 01:32:03,250
I mean, Stephan Kinsella has interesting points of view on that, especially because he is a qualified patent attorney as well.

1349
01:32:03,350 --> 01:32:05,230
So he's worth paying attention to.

1350
01:32:05,890 --> 01:32:16,170
And there are some people who make coherent arguments about patents being generally on balance, not a good thing.

1351
01:32:16,890 --> 01:32:18,850
But there are arguments on both sides.

1352
01:32:19,130 --> 01:32:21,310
And you don't have a control group, really.

1353
01:32:21,310 --> 01:32:26,510
You know, how can you say, but these things come around.

1354
01:32:26,690 --> 01:32:30,370
I noticed recently there's the argument of, well, we shouldn't have patents.

1355
01:32:30,450 --> 01:32:31,210
We should have prizes.

1356
01:32:31,590 --> 01:32:34,330
That seems to come out every so often.

1357
01:32:35,050 --> 01:32:37,590
So, you know, the argument will carry on,

1358
01:32:37,670 --> 01:32:40,370
but I don't really see the patent system ending anytime soon.

1359
01:32:40,830 --> 01:32:46,410
And how does that kind of vibe with open source everything?

1360
01:32:46,410 --> 01:32:51,430
You know, this is obviously something big in the Bitcoin and Nostra arena.

1361
01:32:51,730 --> 01:32:58,130
It's like, let's just go open source, free market, let the chips fall where they may.

1362
01:32:59,470 --> 01:33:01,810
Can we have both?

1363
01:33:03,250 --> 01:33:09,470
Yes, because that is how much of the internet actually works on open source software.

1364
01:33:09,470 --> 01:33:16,470
much of what's behind lots of web servers is based on Apache,

1365
01:33:16,890 --> 01:33:18,670
which is purely open source.

1366
01:33:19,810 --> 01:33:21,070
And you've got people who, you know,

1367
01:33:21,130 --> 01:33:26,970
all the back end of the way the whole internet works is, you know,

1368
01:33:27,030 --> 01:33:29,970
some of it may well at some point have been patented, but it's not anymore.

1369
01:33:31,510 --> 01:33:34,050
So it's all effectively free to use.

1370
01:33:34,530 --> 01:33:37,770
And lots of it started out as open source.

1371
01:33:37,770 --> 01:33:39,770
so you've got characters like

1372
01:33:39,770 --> 01:33:41,350
I don't know what he's doing now

1373
01:33:41,350 --> 01:33:44,090
if he's even still with us but Richard Stallman

1374
01:33:44,090 --> 01:33:45,770
was one of those

1375
01:33:45,770 --> 01:33:47,930
characters who's big

1376
01:33:47,930 --> 01:33:50,010
on that, very anti-patent

1377
01:33:50,010 --> 01:33:52,050
and he had some good

1378
01:33:52,050 --> 01:33:53,890
points, I went to see

1379
01:33:53,890 --> 01:33:55,330
Richard Stallman when I was in

1380
01:33:55,330 --> 01:33:58,010
my MSC in London in 2003

1381
01:33:58,010 --> 01:33:59,030
and he's

1382
01:33:59,030 --> 01:34:01,890
very good, very persuasive

1383
01:34:01,890 --> 01:34:03,950
points about you shouldn't

1384
01:34:03,950 --> 01:34:04,610
patent this

1385
01:34:04,610 --> 01:34:07,610
but then you could take the

1386
01:34:07,610 --> 01:34:12,030
take the view that, well, there are certain areas where patents don't really work so well.

1387
01:34:12,410 --> 01:34:21,730
So maybe things like internet protocols or Bitcoin or, you know, cryptography,

1388
01:34:22,050 --> 01:34:27,130
there shouldn't really be patents because they work better as open source, maybe.

1389
01:34:29,130 --> 01:34:31,350
But then you also got the arguments, well,

1390
01:34:31,350 --> 01:34:36,750
Well, SHA-256 was an invention of the NSA, and that was patented.

1391
01:34:37,550 --> 01:34:42,850
And that's the basis on which much of Bitcoin relies to work.

1392
01:34:43,950 --> 01:34:49,190
So, you know, there are things that come in via the patent system

1393
01:34:49,190 --> 01:34:52,950
or using the patent system that everyone ends up using.

1394
01:34:53,490 --> 01:35:01,230
So things like Schnorr signatures, which weren't in the original Bitcoin system,

1395
01:35:01,350 --> 01:35:08,530
protocol, but that was because they were still patented. But once the patent expired,

1396
01:35:08,890 --> 01:35:16,450
then they could be used. So I think they're part of Taproot. So these things, if you take a longer

1397
01:35:16,450 --> 01:35:24,330
timescale, because patents can only last 20 years, there's lots of useful innovations that will come

1398
01:35:24,330 --> 01:35:30,710
through and be made public through the patent system that then over time, if they're useful

1399
01:35:30,710 --> 01:35:36,110
enough, they will become used and disseminated. And maybe in some cases, you just have to wait

1400
01:35:36,110 --> 01:35:43,790
until the patent expires before they actually get used. So whether that's a good thing or whether

1401
01:35:43,790 --> 01:35:51,270
patents are a slow down innovation, I don't know. I'm not sure they do. Because, you know,

1402
01:35:51,370 --> 01:36:09,445
my argument to that would be well how much faster do you want things to go Because things things develop pretty quickly And there plenty of people out there who do there who have the attitude that well we just do it Don ask for permission just do it

1403
01:36:10,264 --> 01:36:13,384
And if someone comes along and tries to sue them later with their patents,

1404
01:36:13,525 --> 01:36:15,685
then that's just the way the world works.

1405
01:36:16,704 --> 01:36:18,645
Often they'll fail, sometimes they'll win.

1406
01:36:19,285 --> 01:36:21,465
It's just, you know, that's what happens.

1407
01:36:21,465 --> 01:36:24,625
there's

1408
01:36:24,625 --> 01:36:26,785
one of the arguments

1409
01:36:26,785 --> 01:36:29,045
I started to read Seyfrieden's new book

1410
01:36:29,045 --> 01:36:29,985
Gold Standard

1411
01:36:29,985 --> 01:36:33,125
I think I only got just behind me

1412
01:36:33,125 --> 01:36:35,125
I got by the look of it

1413
01:36:35,125 --> 01:36:37,185
about a third of the way through before I got too

1414
01:36:37,185 --> 01:36:39,025
frustrated with it because I think

1415
01:36:39,025 --> 01:36:41,085
it's terrible but it starts off quite

1416
01:36:41,085 --> 01:36:42,945
well and one of the arguments

1417
01:36:42,945 --> 01:36:45,065
is that the Wright

1418
01:36:45,065 --> 01:36:47,225
brothers stopped

1419
01:36:47,225 --> 01:36:49,365
the development of

1420
01:36:49,365 --> 01:36:50,785
airplane technology

1421
01:36:50,785 --> 01:36:56,365
because they had a patent on airplanes, effectively.

1422
01:36:57,105 --> 01:37:00,384
How you control surfaces, I think it was, on airplanes.

1423
01:37:01,324 --> 01:37:02,725
And they sued everyone.

1424
01:37:03,625 --> 01:37:06,445
And the argument, Saferdean's argument would be that

1425
01:37:06,445 --> 01:37:10,125
the airplane industry in the United States

1426
01:37:10,125 --> 01:37:13,105
was held up for years and years

1427
01:37:13,105 --> 01:37:16,764
because of the rights patents,

1428
01:37:17,425 --> 01:37:19,865
whereas it developed much quicker in Europe

1429
01:37:19,865 --> 01:37:23,125
because the rights patents weren't applied in Europe.

1430
01:37:24,945 --> 01:37:28,745
And you take that and think, okay, maybe he's got a point.

1431
01:37:29,625 --> 01:37:31,925
But you don't really have the counterfactual.

1432
01:37:34,704 --> 01:37:35,585
I'm prepared.

1433
01:37:35,785 --> 01:37:38,204
I can see the arguments of both sides.

1434
01:37:39,204 --> 01:37:41,225
Maybe it's dependent on the technology area.

1435
01:37:42,145 --> 01:37:42,605
Who knows?

1436
01:37:43,065 --> 01:37:46,485
But it's one of those, you can't come to a definitive conclusion

1437
01:37:46,485 --> 01:37:48,704
because we don't have a control.

1438
01:37:49,865 --> 01:37:57,425
hmm very interesting yeah um and stefan kinsella yeah i've listened to him on on

1439
01:37:57,425 --> 01:38:02,125
saver dean's podcast i've not seen the interview did you go on his podcast and have or were you on

1440
01:38:02,125 --> 01:38:06,045
i've not met saver dean i don't think he'd i don't think we get on

1441
01:38:06,045 --> 01:38:11,545
i liked his first first three books his latest one i think is terrible

1442
01:38:11,545 --> 01:38:17,445
okay i've not read it yet uh so yeah i'm looking uh looking forward to dig into that

1443
01:38:17,445 --> 01:38:20,605
all right well I guess we should end it

1444
01:38:20,605 --> 01:38:21,645
on the usual question

1445
01:38:21,645 --> 01:38:24,325
if you had one last orange pill

1446
01:38:24,325 --> 01:38:26,565
left to give to somebody who would you give it to

1447
01:38:26,565 --> 01:38:27,165
and why

1448
01:38:27,165 --> 01:38:31,565
well

1449
01:38:31,565 --> 01:38:34,605
I would just say Neil Oliver because I think

1450
01:38:34,605 --> 01:38:36,665
he's the one that we've just been talking

1451
01:38:36,665 --> 01:38:37,384
about and

1452
01:38:37,384 --> 01:38:40,085
he's got quite a big audience

1453
01:38:40,085 --> 01:38:42,585
so I think it's just out of frustration

1454
01:38:42,585 --> 01:38:43,365
that someone

1455
01:38:43,365 --> 01:38:46,665
that otherwise knowledgeable and respectable

1456
01:38:46,665 --> 01:38:49,565
and worth looking up to.

1457
01:38:49,845 --> 01:38:50,805
Because I think he's great otherwise.

1458
01:38:51,365 --> 01:38:53,345
It would be nice to just go, come on,

1459
01:38:53,905 --> 01:38:57,305
just take the orange pill and understand properly.

1460
01:38:58,325 --> 01:39:00,745
Well, we can only keep our fingers crossed.

1461
01:39:01,264 --> 01:39:03,585
And hopefully he will see through.

1462
01:39:04,585 --> 01:39:06,605
I mean, apparently we're part of a cult,

1463
01:39:06,985 --> 01:39:09,085
but I mean, wow.

1464
01:39:11,504 --> 01:39:13,105
Yeah, well, the trouble is,

1465
01:39:13,165 --> 01:39:14,264
if you really are in a cult,

1466
01:39:14,605 --> 01:39:16,165
you'd always deny that you are,

1467
01:39:16,165 --> 01:39:16,825
wouldn't you?

1468
01:39:17,745 --> 01:39:19,405
At least to the outside world.

1469
01:39:20,485 --> 01:39:20,805
Yep.

1470
01:39:20,985 --> 01:39:21,764
So maybe we are.

1471
01:39:23,465 --> 01:39:27,745
One of the other definitions of a cult is it has to have an enigmatic leader,

1472
01:39:27,985 --> 01:39:28,264
right?

1473
01:39:30,625 --> 01:39:31,185
So...

1474
01:39:31,185 --> 01:39:32,465
Satoshi's pretty enigmatic.

1475
01:39:34,965 --> 01:39:37,425
But, yeah.

1476
01:39:39,865 --> 01:39:40,905
But, yeah.

1477
01:39:41,985 --> 01:39:44,125
A living being leader, I suppose.

1478
01:39:44,125 --> 01:39:51,384
when you were to look at somebody that runs the camp

1479
01:39:51,384 --> 01:39:56,204
that everybody flocks to, which is what Craig is.

1480
01:39:57,325 --> 01:39:59,225
Michael Saylor, Max Kaiser.

1481
01:40:00,165 --> 01:40:00,965
Yeah, well, yeah.

1482
01:40:02,185 --> 01:40:03,485
Neither of which.

1483
01:40:04,384 --> 01:40:04,965
Oh, Satoshi.

1484
01:40:09,045 --> 01:40:09,605
Yeah.

1485
01:40:10,145 --> 01:40:12,245
Oh, well, we're part of a cult.

1486
01:40:12,345 --> 01:40:12,945
What can I tell you?

1487
01:40:12,945 --> 01:40:14,445
sound money cult

1488
01:40:14,445 --> 01:40:16,185
yep

1489
01:40:16,185 --> 01:40:19,105
we shall see how it plays out

1490
01:40:19,105 --> 01:40:21,004
where can people

1491
01:40:21,004 --> 01:40:22,905
reach out to you

1492
01:40:22,905 --> 01:40:25,145
and are you going to be around

1493
01:40:25,145 --> 01:40:27,025
any of the conferences if anybody wants to reach

1494
01:40:27,025 --> 01:40:28,845
out and carry on the conversation

1495
01:40:28,845 --> 01:40:31,065
or perhaps be

1496
01:40:31,065 --> 01:40:33,025
inspired to delve into more

1497
01:40:33,025 --> 01:40:34,565
patents and you might

1498
01:40:34,565 --> 01:40:37,185
kick somebody off down

1499
01:40:37,185 --> 01:40:38,205
another rabbit hole

1500
01:40:38,205 --> 01:40:41,325
well I write

1501
01:40:41,325 --> 01:40:42,365
a bit about

1502
01:40:42,365 --> 01:40:47,885
patents and I've written a few articles on Bitcoin patents over the years.

1503
01:40:48,665 --> 01:40:53,305
If you want to look at those, you can go to tuftythecat.com.

1504
01:40:54,005 --> 01:40:55,865
Tufty the Cat, right, okay.

1505
01:40:57,565 --> 01:41:01,585
We didn't get into the doxing, which is a story in itself,

1506
01:41:01,705 --> 01:41:04,984
but I did mention that story on my one with Stefan Kinsella.

1507
01:41:04,984 --> 01:41:08,085
So, yeah, if you want to know how Tufty the Cat came to be

1508
01:41:08,085 --> 01:41:11,065
and how he was doxed, that's in there.

1509
01:41:12,365 --> 01:41:15,045
But, yeah, I'm on X as Tufty the Cat as well.

1510
01:41:16,685 --> 01:41:20,325
It's caused me a bit of trouble in being a regulated patent attorney,

1511
01:41:20,464 --> 01:41:22,165
but, you know, I try and be careful.

1512
01:41:22,964 --> 01:41:25,105
Try not to be derogatory to too many people,

1513
01:41:25,325 --> 01:41:27,224
but still get into trouble occasionally.

1514
01:41:28,305 --> 01:41:28,705
Okay.

1515
01:41:29,025 --> 01:41:32,105
Well, I'll make sure that that's all in the show notes

1516
01:41:32,105 --> 01:41:33,105
and people can reach out.

1517
01:41:33,925 --> 01:41:34,365
Right.

1518
01:41:35,125 --> 01:41:36,085
Well, thanks for coming on.

1519
01:41:36,685 --> 01:41:40,744
By my real name, if you didn't introduce me, David Pearce,

1520
01:41:40,825 --> 01:41:41,585
I'm a patent attorney.

1521
01:41:41,585 --> 01:41:43,185
and I work at Barker-Brittel.

1522
01:41:43,425 --> 01:41:46,005
So this is a patent attorney firm in Birmingham.

1523
01:41:46,244 --> 01:41:49,964
So if anyone wants any real patent work done,

1524
01:41:50,285 --> 01:41:52,224
you can find me there.

1525
01:41:53,405 --> 01:41:54,545
Excellent. All right, mate.

1526
01:41:54,685 --> 01:41:56,685
Well, have a good evening and thanks for coming on

1527
01:41:56,685 --> 01:41:57,685
and thanks for sharing everything.

1528
01:41:59,065 --> 01:42:00,525
Thanks very much, Daniel. It's a pleasure.

1529
01:42:01,165 --> 01:42:01,705
See you, mate.

1530
01:42:05,484 --> 01:42:07,505
Well, thank you again, David, for coming on.

1531
01:42:07,625 --> 01:42:09,025
Thank you, everybody, for listening.

1532
01:42:09,025 --> 01:42:11,585
like I said at the beginning here of this show,

1533
01:42:11,585 --> 01:42:14,405
if you are one of the people out there

1534
01:42:14,405 --> 01:42:34,159
that are holding BSV as an investment strategy I hope this has helped round out your knowledge and your education about the people behind that project what they potentially stand for and whether or not you

1535
01:42:34,159 --> 01:42:40,759
should be rethinking or trusting them. Again, decision is completely yours. Like I said,

1536
01:42:40,959 --> 01:42:46,799
take from this what you will. And if you got this far in, your interest has been piqued,

1537
01:42:46,799 --> 01:43:08,459
I have another episode. I will repeat that episode again. It was called Fake Toshi. It was released on the 27th of August, 2025. And it features Mark and Arthur, who are co-authors of the book that had been following the story for close to 10 years.

1538
01:43:08,459 --> 01:43:18,499
so they deep deep research on this whole topic so it's worthy of your time I would say certainly

1539
01:43:18,499 --> 01:43:23,939
certainly worthy of your time if you've invested in it because if you hold it and you've invested

1540
01:43:23,939 --> 01:43:30,319
in it the more you know about the investment that you hold the better it's that simple and

1541
01:43:30,319 --> 01:43:41,639
if you are resisting listening because of facts that you might find out that's that's the red flag

1542
01:43:41,639 --> 01:43:49,439
that's the that's your inner self telling you uh you know what was it ryan holiday the obstacle

1543
01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:56,579
is the way uh it's the uncomfortable conversations that we need to have or listen to uh to be able to

1544
01:43:56,579 --> 01:44:01,559
move forward and yeah I just implore anybody that's holding the asset to learn as much about

1545
01:44:01,559 --> 01:44:07,519
it as they possibly can that's it enough said a really interesting chat with David like he said

1546
01:44:07,519 --> 01:44:13,399
right there at the end there if you're interested and need any kind of advice or patent work then

1547
01:44:13,399 --> 01:44:19,599
he was always going to be available to Bitcoiners anyway to have a chat because that's what we do

1548
01:44:19,599 --> 01:44:26,119
right we connect with each other we share our expertise and that's the network well we are the

1549
01:44:26,119 --> 01:44:34,159
network and building out the social layer of bitcoin is as important if not more important

1550
01:44:34,159 --> 01:44:42,519
than anything else here because if we do not reach the people we need to reach this thing just stays

1551
01:44:42,519 --> 01:44:48,599
niche and it never gets off the ground it will never become a global medium exchange which is

1552
01:44:48,599 --> 01:44:54,959
what it was designed to do and what it needs to become if we can all escape the the fiat system

1553
01:44:54,959 --> 01:45:03,319
that has been literally designed to suck away your purchasing power and your energy and just

1554
01:45:03,319 --> 01:45:13,159
destroy the communication across the marketplace. You cannot communicate value with fiat currency.

1555
01:45:13,599 --> 01:45:20,639
You just can't. Everything is distorted. That's why we just see malinvestment after malinvestment

1556
01:45:20,639 --> 01:45:27,999
after malinvestment and it's easy to point at crooked politicians or crooked mafioso or crooked

1557
01:45:27,999 --> 01:45:34,759
criminals over here or whatever but they're being led their decisions being led by incentives that

1558
01:45:34,759 --> 01:45:43,419
have been planted in the in the um in the seed of fiat currency for centuries and we are not

1559
01:45:43,419 --> 01:45:51,199
going to move forward unless we move away from that system. Parallel system. Great book by Brian

1560
01:45:51,199 --> 01:45:56,359
DeMint, by the way, Parallel. You can go and read that or read that. Pick up Jeff Booth's book.

1561
01:45:56,699 --> 01:46:02,499
That's a great book to get into as well, The Price of Tomorrow. And keep learning.

1562
01:46:02,979 --> 01:46:06,999
Knuths von Holm's written some great books as well. I'm randomly shilling books here. I don't

1563
01:46:06,999 --> 01:46:13,499
know why but you know these are these are incredibly important books for you to pick up

1564
01:46:13,499 --> 01:46:23,499
and and start learning about uh because if you if you've not figured out yet that you know bitcoin

1565
01:46:23,499 --> 01:46:31,179
isn't there for you to be able to stack more fiat bitcoin is there for you to escape fiat uh there's

1566
01:46:31,179 --> 01:46:36,839
you know just keep learning just keep falling down the rabbit hole one one inch at a time

1567
01:46:36,839 --> 01:46:38,239
It's not going to happen overnight.

1568
01:46:38,619 --> 01:46:41,399
This isn't a get rich quick scheme.

1569
01:46:41,859 --> 01:46:48,279
This is a become free, slowly and purposefully scheme.

1570
01:46:48,799 --> 01:46:50,659
And I'm here for it.

1571
01:46:50,819 --> 01:46:52,479
So thank you everybody for listening.

1572
01:46:53,039 --> 01:46:54,299
Go stack your sats with Relay.

1573
01:46:54,419 --> 01:46:57,059
R-E-L-A-I.ch forward slash Bitten.

1574
01:46:57,359 --> 01:47:00,679
Pay close attention to what paywithflash.com are going to start building.

1575
01:47:01,259 --> 01:47:02,299
And Club Orange.

1576
01:47:02,299 --> 01:47:04,479
Go and meet some people over at Club Orange.

1577
01:47:04,479 --> 01:47:07,139
But please take self-custody of your Bitcoin.

1578
01:47:07,499 --> 01:47:10,079
Bitbox.swiss forward slash Bitten.

1579
01:47:10,299 --> 01:47:15,999
You can use the code Bitten, get 5% off, get the Bitbox O2 or the Bitbox Nova.

1580
01:47:16,199 --> 01:47:24,899
They're fully Bitcoin only hardware wallets that are going to help you take complete control of your Bitcoin.

1581
01:47:25,179 --> 01:47:29,039
And there's been a lot of phishing attacks coming out at the beginning of 2026.

1582
01:47:29,259 --> 01:47:31,979
A lot of sad stories are going to hit the wire.

1583
01:47:32,139 --> 01:47:33,159
I am sure of it.

1584
01:47:33,159 --> 01:47:39,179
more people are going to have been hacked or fallen for an email scam or fallen for a

1585
01:47:39,179 --> 01:47:46,339
clicked a link in a telegram chat or something. Stay vigilant. Stay as vigilant as you possibly

1586
01:47:46,339 --> 01:47:53,799
can. Keep learning. And I looked up an old money proverb today. A fool and his money are parted

1587
01:47:53,799 --> 01:48:00,199
quickly or something along those lines. Yeah, a fool and his money are soon parted.

1588
01:48:00,199 --> 01:48:07,019
apply that to Bitcoin. A fool and his Bitcoin are soon parted. Now, I don't want to call you a fool

1589
01:48:07,019 --> 01:48:14,359
because that obviously is a very derogatory term. But if you're not self-custodying your Bitcoin,

1590
01:48:14,879 --> 01:48:18,899
there's just a little bit of extra learning that you need to do. Like I said, one inch at a time,

1591
01:48:18,979 --> 01:48:23,859
keep falling down the rabbit hole. Get over to bitbox.swiss, read up on their offering there.

1592
01:48:23,859 --> 01:48:29,319
They've got the two Bitcoin-only wallets. Read their blogs, watch their videos. There's lots of

1593
01:48:29,319 --> 01:48:36,239
educational resources out there and keep learning. Please keep learning. That's all we can do.

1594
01:48:36,699 --> 01:48:40,879
I hope you've enjoyed this one. With David, please reach out if you have any questions.

1595
01:48:41,499 --> 01:48:44,219
Catch you on the next show and thank you as always for listening.