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Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.

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This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can

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around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean

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for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so

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much for listening. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Once Bitten Podcast. Joining

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me today on this episode is Felix from Wavespace. What is Wavespace you might ask? Well, do you want

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to live on a Bitcoin standard? It is now possible across Europe. Thank you to the Wavespace team

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for creating a debit card that you can now load with Bitcoin and use absolutely anywhere

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and pay as if you would normally pay.

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And in the background, everything is taken care of.

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It's great to see more initiatives like this springing up all over the world,

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all around the place now.

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I go to these conferences and I get to meet people

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that are working on the same kind of thing.

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I recently met a guy where he was explaining what his company does in South Africa.

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And South Africa is just going crazy right now.

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You can spend Bitcoin in 650,000 merchants across South Africa.

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I mean, come on.

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This is happening.

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Europe is going to be next.

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The UK, who knows, man?

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Really, who knows?

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But someone out there I know will be building something.

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So, yeah, after this episode, reach out to Felix if you want to get in touch

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and start using the service or testing it for them.

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If there's any way that you think you can add value to them,

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he's going to want to listen to you.

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So before we get into the show, a big shout out to the show sponsors here.

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Relay. Did I hear Relay have a Mika license now?

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Yes, it freaking sucks that you've got to go through this hell.

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Regulatory hell.

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It's just beyond annoying.

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And it's taken them months.

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And it's a lot of time, it's a lot of energy,

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and it's a lot of freaking money that you have to freaking give up to this system just to be able to

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run a business but they did it they waded through the shit and now they have the meeker license

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which says they can now sponsor events they can get to all of these conferences they can market

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their product they've been around already for like four or five years bitcoin only company

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that have got an app that you can download today,

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Relay, R-E-L-A-I dot C-H forward slash Bitten,

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and start stacking sats up to 1,000 Swiss or equivalent per day.

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And you hold your keys.

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So it's the Bitcoin ethos, Bitcoin company, Bitcoin DCA.

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You can even use them, use their private service

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to get your business onto a Bitcoin standard,

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your retirement funds into Bitcoin,

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your high net worth individuals can use it and they're gonna walk you through self-custody

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absolutely everything it's there for you r-e-l-a-i dot c-h forward slash bitten go check them out

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now they're swiss based so a bit box bit box they offer you one of the best hardware wallets on the

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market go do your own research and then circle back around and check out bit box hit the link

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in the show notes, bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten, you'll get 5% discount. And more importantly,

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that doesn't matter. The discount doesn't matter. What matters is you taking complete control of

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your Bitcoin. If you've left it on an exchange, it's not your Bitcoin. I don't know how many times

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I have to say that. In fact, I don't care how many times I have to say that. I'll say at the

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beginning of every show please self custody your bitcoin right that's the message bitbox.swiss

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forward slash bitten if you're in the u.s listening to this swan bitcoin offer you much the same

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service as relay does so you can go to swan bitcoin.com forward slash bitten and uh basalto

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fund big shout out to my friend andre loja over at the free madeira initiative in madeira portugal

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If you're looking for a second passport or golden visa, citizenship, whatever it is that you want to do to add flag theory to your life, get over and check out Basalto Fund, B-A-S-A-L-T-O.

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You can go find Free Madeira.

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Just go and hit that link in the show notes and go listen to my episode with Andre where we talk about Basalto Fund and everything that's going on in Madeira with Bitcoin right now.

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PayWithFlash.com.

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What can you do?

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Well, you can start accepting Bitcoin for your goods and services.

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In fact, you should not accept Bitcoin for your goods and services.

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You should demand it, especially if you are a Bitcoiner.

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This is how we get more people in tune with what's going on here.

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So paywithflash.com.

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Very, very simple.

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Click and go.

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You can set up your wallet.

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You can start receiving Bitcoin for your goods and services.

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Have you looked at Orange Pill app lately?

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20,000 Bitcoiners around the world

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aching to engage.

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So go find them.

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And finally, shout out for some conferences.

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You've got BitFest coming up in Manchester,

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21st to 23rd of November.

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And then Bitcoin Japan, that's going to be excellent.

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That's back end of November as well.

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Links are in the show notes.

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Meanwhile, here's Felix from Wavespace.

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All right, Felix, we're recording.

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Thank you for coming on and welcome to the Once Britain podcast.

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Yeah, thank you for having me.

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So Lauren is usually here to ask the first question.

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It's becoming less and less these days.

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Her life's taken a little change.

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She's doing a course at the moment where it takes up a chunk of her day.

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So she's not here, but if she were, I would have shown her the little web card.

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I've got one, not an actual web card, but I've got the little business card looking one.

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I would have shown her that and she would have asked me, wow, like, does this work?

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What does it do?

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So why don't you just lead off with that?

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What is the web card?

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Yeah, of course.

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Wave card is essentially a Visa debit card.

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On the technical side, it's a Visa debit card, but it's connected to your Bitcoin, essentially.

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And it's connected in a way where, you know, for technical reasons, we have to hold some

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parts of your Bitcoin custodially with us to be able to spend it.

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But using Nostra Wallet Connect and later maybe other technologies too, you're able

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to connect this card to your own Bitcoin that are held self-custodially in your own wallet.

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you're able to spend it anywhere visa is accepted essentially so so i've mispronounced it i thought

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it's wav but it's wave is that how you pronounce it exactly yeah it's a wave right okay excellent

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i thought i was being clever and pronouncing it the way it would have been pronounced in german

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but like clearly not uh so wave dot space uh forward slash card is where people can go and

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have a look uh so how how long is this is this actually working is this in the world are people

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using it to um to use for their like day-to-day spend exactly so it's it's live since february

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um and at the moment it's only a virtual card um but we're working hard to make it uh yeah

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turn it physical too we hope to be able to ship the physical card within the next kind of

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two to three months. Sadly, it's not on us at the moment. We have some blockers that are not

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kind of in our control, but yeah, you can, it's a virtual card. You can add it to Apple Pay,

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to Google Pay, and then you can just tap to pay anywhere, essentially.

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Okay. So let's get into that. What are the blockers? What are the problems that you guys

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are facing and you're trying to solve at the moment? I mean, it's the, you know, our business,

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our company is built with a lot of other partners that make this work, right?

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So we don't, ourselves, we don't have any regulatory licenses.

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We don't have anything to do with that.

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So we are kind of outsourcing all of that to our partners.

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And those partners obviously also have to work then with another bank

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that's the card issuer.

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And that card issuer has to work with Visa and MasterCard.

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So there's like all these big companies that are like big and small companies, but also big companies like Visa or MasterCard that are needed to make this work.

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And a lot of these kind of processes just take some time.

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They just take longer than expected.

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But yeah.

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So getting the virtual card launched was a lot easier.

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It seems back to front. I would have thought there would have been more kind of regulations around, well, first of all, you've got to get on the App Store, then you've got to do this and you've got to do that.

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But weirdly, you've managed to launch that a lot sooner.

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Yeah. So the thing is that, you know, the most difficult part is to get is for Visa or MasterCard to accept your card design.

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This is essentially, that's like one of the most problematic processes because they are really careful about with whom they want to associate their brand with.

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So you can't really create any design you want.

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That's kind of, yeah, it's not only in your control, essentially.

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And having this virtual card kind of circumvents this, right?

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Because we just have a bland kind of card design that's being provided by our partners

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who already went through the process with Visa and so forth.

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And then there are also card minimums for the physical cards to order,

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which is a couple of thousands, right?

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And since we've been bootstrapping this, we want to kind of get a little bit more traction

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and then launch with our card.

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And then there's also another problem that we have, not really a problem, but we're switching

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from Visa to MasterCard.

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That's also a thing.

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So there's like multiple decisions, multiple reasons why we're delaying this, where we

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have to delay this for a couple of months, but it will come.

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And then we're going to launch with a very simple black card.

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There's just a lightning symbol in the top right.

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It's going to be on MasterCard.

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It's going to be physical.

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You'll be able to manage the settings within our platform,

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which was not possible to that degree with Visa So there just a lot of moving parts essentially Do you have any idea that you from Bitcoin land

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Not, I mean, they could if they asked. If they asked our partners, they could obviously

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find out. But, you know, the card is issued by our partners and doesn't yet have our card

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design so they don't really know much about it yeah okay all right so let's walk through like

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what this would look for and first of all um sorry to uk listeners but i believe this is euro only

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is that correct for now yes yeah so you do expect to be able to do all currencies or have you got a

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list of i mean so like we have we have found this super cool partner based in estonia right who who

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has who does all the heavy lifting in terms of regulation so that we don't really have to care

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about that and that's how we think about going into other markets too you know we're going to

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find someone who can provide a similar service like that for the uk then for the us and for

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other markets and so this way we like us ourselves we didn't ever have to actually

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think about regulation and can launch this product so we will definitely come to the uk

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eventually but yeah it's going to probably take at least another year i would say

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yeah because you also have switzerland right uh with the swiss franc and there's still some

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countries that have their their native like the corona um some of the scandinavian countries

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yeah they're dotted around um why okay so how does this look like you go to the app store

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you just download the app it's a web app it's a web app okay so right okay so web app you and you

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you create an account is that correct exactly so you go to uh wave.space you open the app

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mobile or desktop doesn't really matter.

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You create an account, you verify.

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So you verify yourself.

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You have to do KYC.

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That's a necessity.

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And then you just click a button, deposit Bitcoin,

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and then you can start using it.

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And then if you really like that, you know,

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you can just deposit as many Bitcoin as you want,

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as much Bitcoin as you want.

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But we really recommend people to connect their own wallets

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to the platform to essentially spend from self-custody.

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Wow, okay. That's interesting.

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So you can connect a hardware wallet or a hot wallet?

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It has to be a NostriWallet Connect powered wallet.

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So there's a couple of, most of those are kind of online nodes.

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like AlbiHub supports NostriWallet Connect.

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There's a bunch of other platforms.

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CoinOS also supports it.

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And then there's a couple of mobile wallets

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that also start to support it,

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like the Flash wallets.

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And I think Breeze will also integrate it into the SDK.

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And then, yeah, you can essentially connect that

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and spend from self-custody.

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It has to be Lightning, right?

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It's based, it runs on Lightning essentially.

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Right. Okay. So yeah, paywithflash.com, people can go across there and take a look at that because they will certainly be integrated with it.

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Exactly.

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Okay, mate. Now, this all sounds very exciting because you can now start literally living on a Bitcoin standard.

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Exactly. Yeah.

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That's our mission in general, right?

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I mean, a lot of people always talk about you should never spend your Bitcoin.

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You should only buy it.

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You should spend euros.

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But we were like, we want to live on Bitcoin today, right?

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I don't want to need to hold euros or fiat in general anymore.

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You know, I want to be able to go all in Bitcoin, have zero euros and live on Bitcoin.

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And that's what we're making possible with that.

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With the cart, that's one of our products.

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It's our kind of core product.

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that everybody is very interested in.

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But we also have like an instant swap feature where you can buy and sell

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between your own wallet and your bank account in seconds at low fees, reliably,

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you know, for the sake of, for example, paying your rent.

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So you can just literally sell Bitcoin from your Lightning wallet,

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from your on-chain wallet in a couple of seconds directly onto your bank account.

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And having those two products essentially allows you to really live on Bitcoin, right?

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Because you have a debit card and you have essentially wire transfers now.

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And both of those enable you to kind of interact with the existing payment and banking systems

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and live conveniently that way.

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Obviously, at some point, I mean, everybody, like every one of us, I think,

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hopes that Bitcoin will become money eventually for the everyday user.

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But we are not there yet.

224
00:17:07,605 --> 00:17:14,125
And we're working on making it possible for people who want to take the jump today, essentially.

225
00:17:15,065 --> 00:17:16,105
How on earth are you doing that?

226
00:17:16,105 --> 00:17:23,105
Because you don't want to be seen as a money transmitter or an exchange, right?

227
00:17:23,145 --> 00:17:26,985
Because that's a whole different set of rules that you need to...

228
00:17:26,985 --> 00:17:29,685
like you'd need a Mika license or this kind of nonsense.

229
00:17:30,245 --> 00:17:32,365
So how's that working in the background?

230
00:17:33,145 --> 00:17:36,245
That's also done through the same partner

231
00:17:36,245 --> 00:17:38,565
that kind of issues the debit card.

232
00:17:38,565 --> 00:17:43,685
So we have one partner who is registered

233
00:17:43,685 --> 00:17:45,745
as a virtual assets service provider.

234
00:17:46,125 --> 00:17:49,225
And they are also applying for Mika right now,

235
00:17:49,285 --> 00:17:50,345
or they've already applied.

236
00:17:50,925 --> 00:17:53,785
So they're going to be ready for Mika in a couple of months.

237
00:17:53,785 --> 00:18:02,165
and yeah through them we can essentially issue iBands to our users we can issue

238
00:18:02,165 --> 00:18:12,425
custodial bitcoin accounts we can integrate with lightning we can issue debit cards and so on

239
00:18:14,565 --> 00:18:19,785
what what are your tech vectors here because this sounds like the you you've lined all the

240
00:18:19,785 --> 00:18:27,405
ducks up perfectly and almost seems too good to be true obviously there's time uh you know getting

241
00:18:27,405 --> 00:18:34,905
all of this put together but uh what's the weak link if a bank turns around well obviously you've

242
00:18:34,905 --> 00:18:42,005
figured one out visa you've got to switch to mastercard but then if mastercard decide to rug

243
00:18:42,005 --> 00:18:52,385
pull you it's not back to visa what what's the yeah so i mean mastercard doesn't actually have

244
00:18:52,385 --> 00:18:57,425
i mean the system is a little bit different right so it's not like we are working directly with visa

245
00:18:57,425 --> 00:19:06,825
or mastercard we're working with a with a partner bank over the bank that has um that has direct

246
00:19:06,825 --> 00:19:14,425
ties to visa and mastercard and through this bank uh this bank is issuing the cards on behalf of us

247
00:19:14,425 --> 00:19:20,605
is it a german bank or is it somewhere else or it's uh it's wallester it's i think it's based

248
00:19:20,605 --> 00:19:29,325
in lithuania um yeah okay right but this is also then again done through our main partner striga

249
00:19:29,325 --> 00:19:35,185
so essentially the way you can imagine it is striga bundles up a bunch of different services

250
00:19:35,185 --> 00:19:40,525
striga is i mean maybe should interview striga at some point it's super super interesting what

251
00:19:40,525 --> 00:19:45,205
they are doing is um essentially they are working with wallester to issue cards

252
00:19:45,205 --> 00:19:52,685
they are working with open paid to issue i-bands they are working with sums up to

253
00:19:52,685 --> 00:20:00,565
um to do the kyc they're working with other partners within a within the regulatory or

254
00:20:00,565 --> 00:20:04,745
in the financial space to offer other services.

255
00:20:04,745 --> 00:20:07,505
They're working with Kraken, with other exchanges together.

256
00:20:07,905 --> 00:20:09,665
Then they kind of bundle that up.

257
00:20:10,025 --> 00:20:13,085
They get the licenses or they have the licenses.

258
00:20:13,905 --> 00:20:19,565
And then they essentially give us a list of APIs

259
00:20:19,565 --> 00:20:21,445
that we can just tap into.

260
00:20:22,245 --> 00:20:24,525
Obviously, we are paying for that service, right?

261
00:20:25,285 --> 00:20:28,685
So it's like a monthly subscription that we pay to Striga

262
00:20:28,685 --> 00:20:32,505
in order to build our products.

263
00:20:32,865 --> 00:20:35,645
But this way they are doing all the compliance stuff.

264
00:20:35,645 --> 00:20:38,765
So really like we are just getting a set of APIs,

265
00:20:39,485 --> 00:20:43,105
create account, initiate, transfer and so forth.

266
00:20:43,865 --> 00:20:48,865
And they kind of take the burden of doing the compliance.

267
00:20:49,385 --> 00:20:52,045
And this allows us to be really kind of innovative

268
00:20:52,045 --> 00:20:54,985
with our way, like with the way we build products

269
00:20:54,985 --> 00:20:56,445
and with what we want to build

270
00:20:56,445 --> 00:20:59,905
because we are essentially only limited to,

271
00:21:01,065 --> 00:21:02,925
well, not only limited to our creativity,

272
00:21:03,285 --> 00:21:05,865
but we have a lot of freedom

273
00:21:05,865 --> 00:21:08,105
in terms of how we approach building products.

274
00:21:09,285 --> 00:21:10,285
Does it make sense?

275
00:21:10,645 --> 00:21:10,785
Yeah.

276
00:21:11,005 --> 00:21:11,845
Yeah, it does.

277
00:21:11,945 --> 00:21:14,845
Yeah, Striga, I do remember hearing about them,

278
00:21:14,905 --> 00:21:16,625
but I'm just looking at the website now.

279
00:21:16,745 --> 00:21:17,685
So you're right.

280
00:21:17,705 --> 00:21:19,865
I need to reach out and find out what's going on

281
00:21:19,865 --> 00:21:22,505
because they're clearly much further down the road

282
00:21:22,505 --> 00:21:23,945
than most people would have realized.

283
00:21:24,425 --> 00:21:25,605
They've got good backing.

284
00:21:25,605 --> 00:21:32,725
I see Stillmark and Fulger Ventures and aligned with BitRefill, which is a very well-known company as well.

285
00:21:33,625 --> 00:21:35,725
So, yeah, this is cool, mate.

286
00:21:35,905 --> 00:21:46,985
So I love the fact that there's a Bitcoin company leveraging itself off the services of a Bitcoin-focused company as well.

287
00:21:47,645 --> 00:21:52,805
So you're like two or three hops from the actual fiat rails.

288
00:21:52,805 --> 00:21:59,305
so you're not dealing with the day-to-day regulation of that because it's just exhausting

289
00:21:59,305 --> 00:22:04,885
I mean I've spoken to Julian Leninger at Relay lots of times about this and they're trying to

290
00:22:04,885 --> 00:22:13,865
get their meeker and the paperwork is just relentless and you submit it and it comes back

291
00:22:13,865 --> 00:22:18,605
and a few things are redacted and you got to do this and you got to do the other and it goes back

292
00:22:18,605 --> 00:22:25,505
again. And the expense is outrageous. It's absolutely ridiculous. And what I find amusing

293
00:22:25,505 --> 00:22:33,385
is you have these regulatory bodies out there that are employed to make sure that there are

294
00:22:33,385 --> 00:22:39,685
no monopolies being created out there in the world. And we must control the monopolists.

295
00:22:39,685 --> 00:22:47,985
At the same time, the regulations that they put on people are so burdensome and so costly,

296
00:22:47,985 --> 00:22:54,565
that only a few businesses are actually allowed or able to go through that regulation process

297
00:22:54,565 --> 00:22:56,845
and afford to go through it.

298
00:22:57,005 --> 00:23:01,825
So they're the ones creating the monopolies in the first place that they end up then regulating.

299
00:23:01,985 --> 00:23:05,185
It's just fucking fiat shit.

300
00:23:05,385 --> 00:23:06,685
It just drives me mad.

301
00:23:07,165 --> 00:23:09,205
So that's my rant.

302
00:23:09,765 --> 00:23:10,585
You're nodding.

303
00:23:10,665 --> 00:23:12,305
You've obviously got some things to add to that.

304
00:23:13,305 --> 00:23:15,785
Yeah, I think you put it right, right?

305
00:23:15,785 --> 00:23:37,711
It something they create to then kind of control And it a lot of monkey work right I mean on one hand it is true that kind of some of these compliance measures a lot of these compliance measures have been created in good faith

306
00:23:37,711 --> 00:23:45,430
Right. It's all we don't we don't have to like, yes, the government is probably corrupt in some areas and so forth.

307
00:23:45,430 --> 00:23:51,211
But there's a couple of people who actually have us in their best interest.

308
00:23:51,211 --> 00:23:59,551
And a lot of these measures are actually preventing money laundering

309
00:23:59,551 --> 00:24:02,591
and terrorist financing for sure.

310
00:24:03,051 --> 00:24:06,131
But a lot of the stuff is also just monkey work.

311
00:24:07,211 --> 00:24:14,051
And it just creates a lot of friction on the user experience side.

312
00:24:14,051 --> 00:24:16,991
and yeah I think like

313
00:24:16,991 --> 00:24:18,650
companies like Striga

314
00:24:18,650 --> 00:24:20,971
I think there's a couple of others popping up

315
00:24:20,971 --> 00:24:23,251
right now and over the last couple

316
00:24:23,251 --> 00:24:25,211
of years who are trying to say

317
00:24:25,211 --> 00:24:27,471
okay we take care of everything

318
00:24:27,471 --> 00:24:28,791
here's the APIs

319
00:24:28,791 --> 00:24:30,391
just build whatever you want to build

320
00:24:30,391 --> 00:24:33,111
there's a couple of these popping up and I think it's super

321
00:24:33,111 --> 00:24:35,291
super good because it's going to drive

322
00:24:35,291 --> 00:24:37,211
the cost down to build

323
00:24:37,211 --> 00:24:39,451
anything that touches the regulated

324
00:24:39,451 --> 00:24:40,451
space right

325
00:24:40,451 --> 00:24:43,451
yeah

326
00:24:43,451 --> 00:24:52,031
yeah that's a great great great kind of uh great service so you obviously are a user yourself um

327
00:24:52,031 --> 00:25:00,311
that i'm trying to get some some use cases uh success stories uh from you what what what uh

328
00:25:00,311 --> 00:25:06,791
what are you able to share if if if not your own uh but like direct feedback from people that have

329
00:25:06,791 --> 00:25:13,031
started using the cart oh yeah that's i mean what's the one thing that we you know for us we

330
00:25:13,031 --> 00:25:20,191
build the product from the perspective of you can now live on Bitcoin. But what we didn't expect is

331
00:25:20,191 --> 00:25:27,531
the way just some people start using the card and our products. For example, we thought that

332
00:25:27,531 --> 00:25:34,291
most of the people are going to be probably OG Bitcoiners or Bitcoiners with a large stack and

333
00:25:34,291 --> 00:25:40,111
they're just going to start spending and living on it, which is true, right, on one hand. But the

334
00:25:40,111 --> 00:25:45,391
thing is, there's also some people who discovered the product from the perspective of someone who

335
00:25:45,391 --> 00:25:51,111
is a Bitcoin beginner. So we have a couple of people who kind of discovered us and they were

336
00:25:51,111 --> 00:25:57,091
like, okay, cool. I can actually spend Bitcoin now. Bitcoin makes sense to me now, you know,

337
00:25:57,091 --> 00:26:02,771
from the perspective of, okay, I understand Bitcoin now better kind of, or at least in the

338
00:26:02,771 --> 00:26:08,891
money use case, they understand it better. And they start actually buying Bitcoin with the euros

339
00:26:08,891 --> 00:26:12,871
onto the card and then use the card again to spend it,

340
00:26:12,871 --> 00:26:15,091
which is obviously not what we intended,

341
00:26:15,451 --> 00:26:17,971
what you intended, right?

342
00:26:18,031 --> 00:26:21,071
Because you kind of, you have euros, you get Bitcoin,

343
00:26:21,211 --> 00:26:25,511
then you can have to kind of sell Bitcoin back into euros

344
00:26:25,511 --> 00:26:27,311
with the card the moment you spend it.

345
00:26:28,071 --> 00:26:31,231
But I mean, it is a use case for some people.

346
00:26:32,991 --> 00:26:37,131
And then I think another interesting thing was also

347
00:26:37,131 --> 00:26:41,711
people who don't really use the card

348
00:26:41,711 --> 00:26:45,951
but need a way to sell a lot of Bitcoin reliably,

349
00:26:46,591 --> 00:26:49,071
securely, without any issues.

350
00:26:49,451 --> 00:26:54,371
Because since we issue iBands to our users,

351
00:26:54,930 --> 00:26:56,831
so you have your own iBand in your own name,

352
00:26:57,451 --> 00:27:01,031
this means that when you sell Bitcoin with Wavespace

353
00:27:01,031 --> 00:27:04,471
and you transfer it to your own bank account,

354
00:27:04,471 --> 00:27:07,531
it will come from an iBand in your own name.

355
00:27:09,051 --> 00:27:09,131
Right?

356
00:27:09,910 --> 00:27:11,851
There's not going to be a situation where,

357
00:27:12,031 --> 00:27:16,011
let's say, 8,000 euros comes from Kraken Limited

358
00:27:16,011 --> 00:27:18,591
or any other company.

359
00:27:18,831 --> 00:27:21,251
And your bank asks, like, where does that money come from?

360
00:27:21,311 --> 00:27:21,791
It's weird.

361
00:27:21,910 --> 00:27:22,651
It's from a business.

362
00:27:22,851 --> 00:27:23,771
It's not from yourself.

363
00:27:24,771 --> 00:27:27,771
And so, like, this is a big reason why people use us.

364
00:27:29,910 --> 00:27:31,691
Just for the sake of reliability

365
00:27:31,691 --> 00:27:34,391
and kind of, I guess, privacy too, right?

366
00:27:34,471 --> 00:27:40,571
because your bank will just see a transfer from your own name to your own name, kind of,

367
00:27:40,911 --> 00:27:43,071
from one of your bank accounts to your own bank account.

368
00:27:43,191 --> 00:27:49,871
And it will be essentially designated as an internal transfer.

369
00:27:50,771 --> 00:27:54,511
And that will kind of solve a lot of frustrations that you have.

370
00:27:54,991 --> 00:28:00,031
So if somebody, for example, wanted to sell some Bitcoin,

371
00:28:00,311 --> 00:28:03,731
they could do that on the exchange that they've always had.

372
00:28:03,731 --> 00:28:06,391
let's say they've been with an exchange for a while

373
00:28:06,391 --> 00:28:07,951
and they've not gone peer-to-peer.

374
00:28:08,151 --> 00:28:09,271
So they've got an exchange account.

375
00:28:09,611 --> 00:28:11,531
They could send the Bitcoin into the exchange account,

376
00:28:11,711 --> 00:28:15,670
exchange that into fiat, and then...

377
00:28:15,670 --> 00:28:17,551
No, they wouldn't even need to do that.

378
00:28:17,751 --> 00:28:21,670
They could just withdraw the Bitcoin from the exchange

379
00:28:21,670 --> 00:28:24,211
if they hadn't done that yet.

380
00:28:24,291 --> 00:28:24,831
It's sitting there.

381
00:28:25,011 --> 00:28:27,231
Straight onto Wavespace

382
00:28:27,231 --> 00:28:31,731
and then convert into euros,

383
00:28:32,031 --> 00:28:33,291
into your IBAN,

384
00:28:33,731 --> 00:28:38,611
right and then you can send it to your bank account if you needed to fit so if you wanted to

385
00:28:38,611 --> 00:28:43,251
there's been a case here in the uk recently where a guy's been trying to buy a house

386
00:28:43,251 --> 00:28:48,571
and him and his wife you know they they hit the number they needed to to change their life

387
00:28:48,571 --> 00:28:57,051
and sold some bitcoin to do that fully regulated bitcoin fully kyc fully aml all the way through

388
00:28:57,051 --> 00:29:02,551
got the money into the bank account now has to pay capital gains tax on it and the bank

389
00:29:02,551 --> 00:29:08,751
are refusing the money because of its past history, shall we say,

390
00:29:09,351 --> 00:29:11,071
and because it was linked to Bitcoin.

391
00:29:11,311 --> 00:29:13,451
Oh, no, it must be drug money and terrorists.

392
00:29:13,651 --> 00:29:15,771
We're still dealing with this bullshit, for example.

393
00:29:16,051 --> 00:29:19,911
So the case that you've just described,

394
00:29:20,071 --> 00:29:23,091
that could have all been avoided if this was obviously available in the UK.

395
00:29:23,651 --> 00:29:26,651
But it's available to somebody in Europe right now.

396
00:29:27,131 --> 00:29:29,251
So if they wanted to make that big purchase,

397
00:29:29,251 --> 00:29:38,691
that's very very interesting so obviously i mean my first thought for the use case of this card was

398
00:29:38,691 --> 00:29:46,891
i can spend it in uh like uh the local supermarket i can buy my gas uh you know pub cafe bar restaurant

399
00:29:46,891 --> 00:29:54,851
but you've just unlocked something potentially but are you set up to start doing like a 400 000

400
00:29:54,851 --> 00:30:02,771
euro transfer uh to for somebody to be able to go and buy their dream house i mean yeah i mean yes

401
00:30:02,771 --> 00:30:09,591
and no there there are some caveats to that right because um you know every every kind of private

402
00:30:09,591 --> 00:30:15,471
bank every bank in in the eu or just in general every bank they have their own kind of risk models

403
00:30:15,471 --> 00:30:23,271
so even if it was even if they see okay it's an internal transfer from you to yourself if that

404
00:30:23,271 --> 00:30:30,491
sum is, if that amount is extremely large, they will probably ask you what that is. However,

405
00:30:30,711 --> 00:30:37,731
it's a much easier thing to explain that it's your euros that you withdraw, that you just sent

406
00:30:37,731 --> 00:30:45,151
from another bank or another one of your accounts to this account. Instead of saying, I just received

407
00:30:45,151 --> 00:30:52,351
half a million from Kraken or from an exchange, right? So it is easier, definitely. And then

408
00:30:52,351 --> 00:30:56,491
obviously also it, yeah, because it depends on the amount, right?

409
00:30:56,691 --> 00:31:02,031
This means that for, for smaller transfers, as in, let's say 10,000 euros,

410
00:31:02,251 --> 00:31:05,291
there won't be any questions because it's not a,

411
00:31:05,430 --> 00:31:06,451
not an amount that is,

412
00:31:06,591 --> 00:31:10,591
that is kind of problematic to any bank because it's an internal transfer.

413
00:31:11,071 --> 00:31:12,411
Right. So I'm not,

414
00:31:12,471 --> 00:31:17,231
I'm not kind of advertising that you should kind of do this with a million

415
00:31:17,231 --> 00:31:21,391
euros in one transaction. Right. I mean, it will probably work,

416
00:31:21,391 --> 00:31:26,491
but you might get asked questions from your recipient bank.

417
00:31:26,491 --> 00:31:30,131
But the point being, as soon as you launch something,

418
00:31:31,031 --> 00:31:34,871
people will find different ways to use that service.

419
00:31:36,611 --> 00:31:38,451
It's a classic entrepreneur's journey.

420
00:31:38,831 --> 00:31:41,851
You've designed something, you've scratched your own itch,

421
00:31:42,291 --> 00:31:44,531
you've ironed it all out, you've got it to the point of,

422
00:31:44,631 --> 00:31:46,551
right, let's ship it, let's go.

423
00:31:46,851 --> 00:31:50,111
You put it out there live, the market gets their hands on it

424
00:31:50,111 --> 00:31:53,871
and you have no idea where this is going to go.

425
00:31:54,351 --> 00:31:57,351
And that's where a lot of startups fail

426
00:31:57,351 --> 00:31:59,891
because they just grip onto the dream of,

427
00:32:00,011 --> 00:32:01,971
no, it wasn't built for this.

428
00:32:02,051 --> 00:32:04,731
You guys need to be, rather than listen to the market.

429
00:32:06,171 --> 00:32:06,851
Yeah, definitely.

430
00:32:07,491 --> 00:32:09,751
I mean, for us, I think we're not going to give up

431
00:32:09,751 --> 00:32:14,751
on the idea of turning Bitcoin into money

432
00:32:14,751 --> 00:32:18,430
by kind of connecting it to the existing system

433
00:32:18,430 --> 00:32:20,031
for that specific use case.

434
00:32:20,111 --> 00:32:27,951
right? We're still on the mission to enable you to just go all in Bitcoin and then spend it with

435
00:32:27,951 --> 00:32:32,831
a car, do wire transfers for like paying rent and so on. But you're absolutely right, right? Like

436
00:32:32,831 --> 00:32:38,651
people just will use it for whatever they want it for. And that's good. That's a good thing.

437
00:32:40,111 --> 00:32:46,751
You know, we realized that the card is a great way to attract people because it's something novel.

438
00:32:46,751 --> 00:32:48,991
it's something many people have

439
00:32:48,991 --> 00:32:51,351
been saying

440
00:32:51,351 --> 00:32:53,531
they've waited for years for something like that

441
00:32:53,531 --> 00:32:55,411
you know connectable to your own

442
00:32:55,411 --> 00:32:56,771
self custodial bitcoin

443
00:32:56,771 --> 00:32:58,811
spend it anywhere globally

444
00:32:58,811 --> 00:33:01,731
but at the end of the day

445
00:33:01,731 --> 00:33:03,411
they will probably want to

446
00:33:03,411 --> 00:33:04,991
maybe buy some more bitcoin

447
00:33:04,991 --> 00:33:06,071
maybe sell bitcoin

448
00:33:06,071 --> 00:33:09,311
and they will use our swap product as well

449
00:33:09,311 --> 00:33:10,411
and

450
00:33:10,411 --> 00:33:13,551
yeah so I think we're in quite a cool position

451
00:33:13,551 --> 00:33:15,311
right because we have this novel

452
00:33:15,311 --> 00:33:22,471
product but we also are kind of serving all the other needs that they might have right so how does

453
00:33:22,471 --> 00:33:27,691
the business grow obviously you have to make money somewhere so i'm guessing it's uh commission fees

454
00:33:27,691 --> 00:33:34,371
somewhere along the line or is there a payment to subscription fee or one-time fee what's what's

455
00:33:34,371 --> 00:33:42,251
the model so we're it's really simple we're just charging one percent on the conversion so whether

456
00:33:42,251 --> 00:33:48,511
you swap, whether you buy or sell Bitcoin, it's 1%, or whether you spend with a card,

457
00:33:48,611 --> 00:33:49,311
it's 1%.

458
00:33:49,311 --> 00:33:52,631
Both products are free in general, right?

459
00:33:52,651 --> 00:33:54,131
You don't need to pay for the card.

460
00:33:54,211 --> 00:33:57,011
You can just click it, get a card.

461
00:33:57,531 --> 00:34:01,811
You can even set your own kind of pseudonymous name on the card.

462
00:34:01,811 --> 00:34:03,411
It gives you a little bit more privacy.

463
00:34:03,971 --> 00:34:08,311
For example, my card is called Satoshi Nakamoto, you know, just for giggles.

464
00:34:08,311 --> 00:34:14,030
and yeah, you can just use it.

465
00:34:14,091 --> 00:34:14,771
Just 1%.

466
00:34:14,771 --> 00:34:18,451
It doesn't matter if you buy 15 euros

467
00:34:18,451 --> 00:34:21,791
or 10 euros worth or 1,000.

468
00:34:22,331 --> 00:34:26,171
So what's been the growth so far?

469
00:34:26,311 --> 00:34:28,050
You launched SoftLaunch in February.

470
00:34:28,471 --> 00:34:30,411
You guys are picking up steam, obviously.

471
00:34:30,651 --> 00:34:32,550
You're now coming on podcasts, going to conferences.

472
00:34:33,411 --> 00:34:37,411
What's that been like, the first handful of months?

473
00:34:38,311 --> 00:34:45,071
Yeah, so we essentially launched with Swap in January and then with the card in February.

474
00:34:46,091 --> 00:34:50,471
And the growth has been super good.

475
00:34:51,010 --> 00:34:59,091
I think what was interesting but kind of not surprising to me was that within the first two months, there were signups.

476
00:34:59,091 --> 00:35:20,776
But people were still like okay they were still kind of fearful a little bit or concerned because we just popped out of the ground with like two new products And nobody knew us beforehand And I think anything that touches kind of finances is you know people are careful with that But then over the last kind of six months we been growing about

477
00:35:20,776 --> 00:35:31,496
70 to 80% every single month. We are currently at over 1000 users, signups in total kind

478
00:35:31,496 --> 00:35:41,036
of and yeah we have we're growing decently um yeah so did you launch was this from like uh

479
00:35:41,036 --> 00:35:48,016
a passion project or did you manage to convince some seed capital venture capitalists or

480
00:35:48,016 --> 00:35:54,876
how how is it all like built and launched in the back end there yeah so it started in

481
00:35:54,876 --> 00:35:57,396
at the end of 2023.

482
00:35:57,796 --> 00:36:00,476
No, actually in January 2024.

483
00:36:02,776 --> 00:36:03,376
You know, I kind of,

484
00:36:03,536 --> 00:36:05,076
there was, we were at the point

485
00:36:05,076 --> 00:36:07,736
where some Lightning Wallets,

486
00:36:07,916 --> 00:36:09,596
what is like Phoenix and,

487
00:36:09,676 --> 00:36:11,676
I mean, Wallet of Satoshi is custodial,

488
00:36:11,796 --> 00:36:12,656
so it doesn't really count,

489
00:36:12,756 --> 00:36:14,616
but there were a couple of Lightning Wallets

490
00:36:14,616 --> 00:36:15,736
that really, you know,

491
00:36:15,796 --> 00:36:17,076
started to become reliable.

492
00:36:17,716 --> 00:36:19,496
You could actually do Lightning payments

493
00:36:19,496 --> 00:36:21,916
without them failing every second time.

494
00:36:21,916 --> 00:36:25,896
and I realized that, okay, this is cool,

495
00:36:26,016 --> 00:36:28,296
but nobody accepts Lightning, right?

496
00:36:28,436 --> 00:36:30,356
So, I mean, it's nice,

497
00:36:30,456 --> 00:36:33,976
but we need to somehow connect this with what exists,

498
00:36:34,296 --> 00:36:36,636
with a debit card, with bank transfers.

499
00:36:37,536 --> 00:36:42,396
And so I pitched this idea to my two friends

500
00:36:42,396 --> 00:36:45,636
and ex-colleagues, Mantas and Avedas,

501
00:36:46,396 --> 00:36:48,936
and we bootstrapped it from that day.

502
00:36:48,936 --> 00:36:50,996
So we decided, okay, it's a cool idea.

503
00:36:50,996 --> 00:36:57,796
we have found a great partner with with strieger i actually met those guys in 2023 randomly through

504
00:36:57,796 --> 00:37:02,836
a friend they they were visiting berlin and he was like hey those guys are cool let's let's hang

505
00:37:02,836 --> 00:37:09,196
out you know let's let's grab dinner um so i knew how to build it and i knew what the problem was in

506
00:37:09,196 --> 00:37:18,676
my perspective and we just uh bootstrapped it us three um and then uh about yeah in june of this

507
00:37:18,676 --> 00:37:25,176
year so a couple months after launching we received our first angel investment um by actually

508
00:37:25,176 --> 00:37:33,416
one of the first or maybe the first angel in relay as well so uh kind of a nice kind of um how you

509
00:37:33,416 --> 00:37:40,656
how you say like a a nice stamp you know to have that i mean yeah that he kind of sees something

510
00:37:40,656 --> 00:37:47,636
something good in this uh in this initiative in this business and um and yeah we've been uh we're

511
00:37:47,636 --> 00:37:55,056
still kind of fundraising now. We're talking to most of the VCs that you probably know in the

512
00:37:55,056 --> 00:38:01,816
Bitcoin space too. But we also, we've been approached by quite a lot of our users actually,

513
00:38:02,316 --> 00:38:08,336
because they somehow found out that we are raising funds and some of them, you know,

514
00:38:08,336 --> 00:38:14,136
are kind of OG Bitcoiners as well that have been waiting for something like this. Right.

515
00:38:14,136 --> 00:38:21,856
and so yeah so we're also raising now from from a couple of our users which is great and then

516
00:38:21,856 --> 00:38:29,216
VC maybe you know I think you know I have a couple of friends who who didn't were not Bitcoiners but

517
00:38:29,216 --> 00:38:35,616
they still kind of founded companies in the more traditional spaces and they and the ones that took

518
00:38:35,616 --> 00:38:42,256
VC money they said it's a it's a different game right it's a VCs have different expectations they

519
00:38:42,256 --> 00:38:47,076
it's not only about becoming profitable and so forth.

520
00:38:47,076 --> 00:38:48,676
It's about kind of, you know,

521
00:38:48,716 --> 00:38:50,316
raising the next round and so forth.

522
00:38:50,656 --> 00:38:54,316
And we're not completely kind of against that,

523
00:38:54,976 --> 00:38:57,416
but, you know, maybe at a later stage,

524
00:38:57,556 --> 00:38:59,296
it really depends on the VC, right?

525
00:38:59,316 --> 00:39:00,436
It really depends on,

526
00:39:01,156 --> 00:39:02,696
because those are going to be people

527
00:39:02,696 --> 00:39:04,056
that we have to work with

528
00:39:04,056 --> 00:39:06,996
for the next kind of 10 years, maybe even, right?

529
00:39:07,536 --> 00:39:10,436
So there has to be the personal kind of connection.

530
00:39:10,436 --> 00:39:16,356
and then also in terms of their strategic or their thinking,

531
00:39:16,496 --> 00:39:18,296
like what do they want from us?

532
00:39:18,436 --> 00:39:19,976
What do they want to see from us?

533
00:39:20,876 --> 00:39:25,956
How do they imagine kind of our process of the next couple of years?

534
00:39:26,156 --> 00:39:31,236
And so, yeah, so currently we're onboarding a couple of angels,

535
00:39:31,236 --> 00:39:37,196
which is super great, kind of gets us in a good financial position.

536
00:39:37,196 --> 00:39:42,516
and then VCs maybe if, yeah,

537
00:39:42,696 --> 00:39:45,836
if it makes sense to both sides kind of.

538
00:39:46,196 --> 00:39:47,076
Yeah, be careful.

539
00:39:47,316 --> 00:39:49,536
Sounds like you're already, yeah, exactly.

540
00:39:50,076 --> 00:39:52,836
That's the advice from what I've seen,

541
00:39:53,076 --> 00:39:55,236
talking to lots of different,

542
00:39:55,956 --> 00:39:57,236
oh God, I sound like Nick Carter.

543
00:39:57,236 --> 00:39:59,736
I talk to founders every day.

544
00:40:02,616 --> 00:40:04,316
Yeah, be careful.

545
00:40:04,476 --> 00:40:06,536
It's cool that you've got users

546
00:40:06,536 --> 00:40:07,936
that want to be part of it.

547
00:40:08,176 --> 00:40:13,176
The same thing happened anecdotally with Orange Pill App.

548
00:40:13,736 --> 00:40:16,416
A couple of the power users of Orange Pill App

549
00:40:16,416 --> 00:40:19,396
saw the value in investing

550
00:40:19,396 --> 00:40:21,296
because they wanted to be part of something

551
00:40:21,296 --> 00:40:23,916
that was going to keep growing and changing their lives

552
00:40:23,916 --> 00:40:26,016
and connecting them with other Bitcoiners.

553
00:40:26,136 --> 00:40:27,876
So it's always the best way to do it.

554
00:40:28,036 --> 00:40:30,556
And then, of course, any investment that you do get,

555
00:40:30,896 --> 00:40:34,316
you just stick it into Bitcoin and let it grow.

556
00:40:34,876 --> 00:40:35,316
Exactly.

557
00:40:35,316 --> 00:40:41,896
I mean, this was also the, I think the main question by a couple of our investors now,

558
00:40:42,196 --> 00:40:47,076
you know, they were like, okay, I like the idea, I like the team, I like the kind of

559
00:40:47,076 --> 00:40:52,916
your roadmap, all makes sense, but I'm scared about not outperforming Bitcoin.

560
00:40:53,816 --> 00:40:56,816
And I mean, that's also our just approach, right?

561
00:40:56,876 --> 00:41:02,356
We keep all the liquid kind of cash that we have, we keep it in Bitcoin as much as we

562
00:41:02,356 --> 00:41:04,116
can, you know, as much as makes sense.

563
00:41:04,116 --> 00:41:08,476
and then any revenue we get is also then in Bitcoin.

564
00:41:09,556 --> 00:41:12,656
It's either in Bitcoin natively, right?

565
00:41:12,676 --> 00:41:15,656
If we take 1% when somebody sells it, we get it in Bitcoin

566
00:41:15,656 --> 00:41:20,256
or what we're doing right now is we're just buying back Bitcoin

567
00:41:20,256 --> 00:41:22,096
with euros immediately, essentially.

568
00:41:22,816 --> 00:41:27,956
So we run on Bitcoin and kind of, you know, as an angel investor,

569
00:41:28,316 --> 00:41:31,396
it's nice to know that if we are profitable,

570
00:41:31,396 --> 00:41:33,456
we are outperforming Bitcoin

571
00:41:33,456 --> 00:41:36,076
because we are just mainly holding Bitcoin, right?

572
00:41:37,576 --> 00:41:39,796
Yeah, so I think it's a nice kind of,

573
00:41:40,376 --> 00:41:44,136
it takes away the fear for a couple of angels,

574
00:41:44,336 --> 00:41:45,996
you know, them knowing that we're not just

575
00:41:45,996 --> 00:41:48,116
selling their Bitcoin and then holding euros.

576
00:41:49,216 --> 00:41:49,856
Yeah, exactly.

577
00:41:50,276 --> 00:41:53,156
So one of the biggest pushbacks,

578
00:41:53,156 --> 00:41:55,616
you kind of touched on it a little bit earlier.

579
00:41:56,076 --> 00:41:57,796
One of the biggest pushbacks you get is

580
00:41:57,796 --> 00:41:59,636
I don't want to spend my Bitcoin.

581
00:41:59,636 --> 00:42:05,776
People are kind of stuck in this, especially if they're mining fiat still.

582
00:42:05,916 --> 00:42:09,476
They might have a nine to five fiat job and that's all fine.

583
00:42:09,596 --> 00:42:13,496
I just get my fiat and each month I put a bit aside,

584
00:42:13,636 --> 00:42:17,376
I dollar cost average and I build my stack and a few more cycles.

585
00:42:17,536 --> 00:42:21,656
I'll be down the road and I'll be able to get the Citadel and whatever.

586
00:42:21,656 --> 00:42:28,536
right uh but you've actually got a nice article on your your blog site uh about um

587
00:42:30,136 --> 00:42:38,276
what was it you're shorting are you shorting are you shorting bitcoin without realizing it

588
00:42:38,276 --> 00:42:46,036
and and i think that is uh very worth digging into because it might surprise a few people

589
00:42:46,036 --> 00:42:54,876
the take on this so are people shorting bitcoin without realizing it um yeah i mean it's a it's a

590
00:42:54,876 --> 00:43:01,756
great article uh it was mainly written by a who digged into it i think i think he posted it last

591
00:43:01,756 --> 00:43:09,296
week um no two weeks a couple weeks ago and so yeah i mean you know if you're saying that

592
00:43:09,296 --> 00:43:15,596
people should spend fiat and just buy bitcoin then you're essentially saying that you're still

593
00:43:15,596 --> 00:43:16,856
you still have fiat.

594
00:43:17,636 --> 00:43:18,956
And if you still have fiat,

595
00:43:19,276 --> 00:43:22,836
this means that you're essentially shorting Bitcoin, right?

596
00:43:22,856 --> 00:43:27,476
Because you're not investing all your liquid cash

597
00:43:27,476 --> 00:43:29,136
or your liquid money into Bitcoin.

598
00:43:29,136 --> 00:43:34,216
You're not making the choice to opt for better money

599
00:43:34,216 --> 00:43:37,276
with all the cash that you have.

600
00:43:39,476 --> 00:43:41,936
I think, you know, it not only,

601
00:43:42,096 --> 00:43:43,516
I mean, from a financial perspective,

602
00:43:43,756 --> 00:43:45,376
it actually also does make sense.

603
00:43:45,596 --> 00:43:46,956
We've looked into it a little bit.

604
00:43:47,116 --> 00:43:50,336
We will kind of publish more content around that.

605
00:43:51,036 --> 00:43:53,516
You know, even with our 1% fees,

606
00:43:53,516 --> 00:43:57,196
imagine you buy at the beginning of the month with 1%

607
00:43:57,196 --> 00:44:03,376
and then when you spend it, you have to pay 2%, 1% again, right?

608
00:44:03,436 --> 00:44:06,016
For a total kind of 2%, you know,

609
00:44:06,056 --> 00:44:08,596
maybe we're going to kind of also push that down

610
00:44:08,596 --> 00:44:11,836
for people who do use it in a way like that, but let's see.

611
00:44:11,836 --> 00:44:16,356
but on average Bitcoin is growing 4%

612
00:44:16,356 --> 00:44:18,796
each month kind of

613
00:44:18,796 --> 00:44:22,096
so essentially if you just buy Bitcoin

614
00:44:22,096 --> 00:44:23,616
and spend it with wavecard

615
00:44:23,616 --> 00:44:25,856
over a long enough time frame

616
00:44:25,856 --> 00:44:28,176
you will outperform

617
00:44:28,176 --> 00:44:32,656
essentially holding euros and spending euros

618
00:44:32,656 --> 00:44:35,076
either way

619
00:44:35,076 --> 00:44:40,476
and then that's just the financial perspective

620
00:44:40,476 --> 00:44:58,376
But what's also super interesting is that what we believe what's interesting is that if you go on in Bitcoin and you have your Bitcoin card, you have your wave card that's connected to your Bitcoin and you spend it, your purchase behavior, your buying behavior also changes slightly.

621
00:44:58,376 --> 00:45:02,096
because you have to always ask the question,

622
00:45:02,596 --> 00:45:07,736
is this worth, I don't know, 30,000 cents or not?

623
00:45:08,256 --> 00:45:12,396
If you're saving in Bitcoin and you're spending euros,

624
00:45:12,796 --> 00:45:15,896
you don't care because you're just spending shit coins, right?

625
00:45:16,816 --> 00:45:20,636
And so it will also kind of change the way you think about money

626
00:45:20,636 --> 00:45:26,776
and make you think twice maybe about the purchase that you want to make.

627
00:45:26,776 --> 00:45:27,736
Is it worthwhile?

628
00:45:27,736 --> 00:45:29,016
Is it not worthwhile?

629
00:45:29,256 --> 00:45:32,456
Is it just stupid consumption or not?

630
00:45:32,976 --> 00:45:37,316
So I think there's a financial benefit of going all in Bitcoin.

631
00:45:38,116 --> 00:45:42,956
And then there's also just the psychological effect of being all in Bitcoin

632
00:45:42,956 --> 00:45:47,916
that will make you more, how do you say, frugal with money, I guess,

633
00:45:48,036 --> 00:45:48,896
you know, make it more careful.

634
00:45:50,256 --> 00:45:50,816
Yeah.

635
00:45:51,276 --> 00:45:52,536
So it's a great article.

636
00:45:52,656 --> 00:45:55,636
I recommend everybody to read this because, yeah,

637
00:45:55,636 --> 00:46:01,436
There's a bunch of other interesting kind of viewpoints in there too that you should.

638
00:46:02,016 --> 00:46:02,236
Yeah.

639
00:46:02,456 --> 00:46:08,076
No, the title is excellent because obviously it triggers you straight away.

640
00:46:08,236 --> 00:46:09,856
I'm not shorting Bitcoin.

641
00:46:10,036 --> 00:46:10,896
What are you talking about?

642
00:46:11,136 --> 00:46:12,856
That's the craziest thing I've ever heard.

643
00:46:13,316 --> 00:46:19,196
But it's interesting that everything Bitcoin touches, it turns it upside down.

644
00:46:19,196 --> 00:46:24,996
So in your case, you've got, you put a debit card in people's hands.

645
00:46:25,636 --> 00:46:29,956
which lowers your time preference rather than high and heightens it.

646
00:46:30,716 --> 00:46:34,096
You know, it's exactly as you just said, because you,

647
00:46:34,096 --> 00:46:34,996
you're going to think,

648
00:46:35,176 --> 00:46:38,216
whereas usually you get the debit card or the credit card and you're like,

649
00:46:38,276 --> 00:46:42,316
hooray, free money. Let's go. Let's go out. Like let's book that holiday.

650
00:46:42,516 --> 00:46:46,956
Let's go and get the best restaurant in town. Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap,

651
00:46:46,996 --> 00:46:49,336
wherever you go. And before you know it, at the end of the month, you're broke.

652
00:46:50,636 --> 00:46:52,376
But with this, it,

653
00:46:52,421 --> 00:46:54,941
Low is your time preference because it makes you think, yeah,

654
00:46:55,161 --> 00:46:56,901
because behind this is Bitcoin.

655
00:46:57,221 --> 00:46:58,981
And do I really want to spend it?

656
00:46:59,081 --> 00:47:00,141
So very interesting.

657
00:47:00,601 --> 00:47:04,521
But a couple of things that you're going to open yourself up to here.

658
00:47:05,261 --> 00:47:06,701
I've done podcasts on it.

659
00:47:06,721 --> 00:47:09,261
Obviously, we've got Tom over at Sats Back.

660
00:47:09,261 --> 00:47:13,041
And I had a guy come on that had a whole career at MasterCard

661
00:47:13,041 --> 00:47:14,781
doing their rewards program.

662
00:47:15,641 --> 00:47:17,621
John, you'd have to go back.

663
00:47:17,741 --> 00:47:18,381
I'll send you that.

664
00:47:18,621 --> 00:47:19,741
I'll send you that episode.

665
00:47:19,741 --> 00:47:23,261
because I think once he listens to this, he's going to be like,

666
00:47:23,361 --> 00:47:26,421
oh my God, this opens up so many opportunities.

667
00:47:27,381 --> 00:47:30,681
And so will Tom, obviously, at Satsback for rewards.

668
00:47:31,561 --> 00:47:35,201
And how have you guys thought about that?

669
00:47:37,501 --> 00:47:39,641
Yeah, interesting that you mentioned this

670
00:47:39,641 --> 00:47:44,261
because the Satsback guys were actually one of the first people

671
00:47:44,261 --> 00:47:47,181
we spoke to in February, even when we launched the card.

672
00:47:47,181 --> 00:47:53,001
we were like, okay, what's something that people associate with kind of banking experience,

673
00:47:53,081 --> 00:48:00,441
experiences around spending. And it's obviously kind of this loyalty and rewards ecosystem. And

674
00:48:00,441 --> 00:48:05,781
so we immediately reached out to them. We also, we partnered with them. So you can,

675
00:48:06,121 --> 00:48:11,521
if you go to their side and sign up to Wavespace through Satsback, then you will get like a special

676
00:48:17,181 --> 00:48:20,961
we are talking about, you know, how we could potentially, for example,

677
00:48:20,961 --> 00:48:26,841
the easiest thing would be to integrate SADS back into the wave card kind of

678
00:48:26,841 --> 00:48:31,081
experience and just give people, it wouldn't be called SADS.

679
00:48:31,101 --> 00:48:32,481
I mean, it would still be SADS back,

680
00:48:32,561 --> 00:48:35,741
but it's more like just cash back because you're spending Bitcoin and getting

681
00:48:35,741 --> 00:48:41,641
Bitcoin. Right. But it's, it's a super interesting ecosystem.

682
00:48:41,641 --> 00:48:45,881
And I, and I think this whole, yeah, it's,

683
00:48:45,881 --> 00:48:50,221
an area that Bitcoiners are not focused on at all.

684
00:48:51,261 --> 00:48:56,601
You know, this, I mean, everybody who's into, who's kind of pushing the spending use case

685
00:48:56,601 --> 00:49:02,441
of Bitcoin is working on wallets and kind of point of sales and so on.

686
00:49:02,521 --> 00:49:03,361
And that's important.

687
00:49:03,361 --> 00:49:08,621
But I think there's a whole nother opportunity when it comes to loyalty and rewards.

688
00:49:08,801 --> 00:49:14,641
And, you know, maybe even eventually having a platform where you go to normal merchants

689
00:49:14,641 --> 00:49:17,321
and say, hey, do you want to accept Bitcoin?

690
00:49:18,001 --> 00:49:20,881
But not only because you can then accept Bitcoin,

691
00:49:21,061 --> 00:49:23,541
but also because it opens you up

692
00:49:23,541 --> 00:49:26,301
to a whole nother type of customer, right?

693
00:49:26,521 --> 00:49:28,521
And there are opportunities around that.

694
00:49:28,661 --> 00:49:30,781
I mean, it's just something that we've been thinking about

695
00:49:30,781 --> 00:49:33,561
and also been talking about to the Satsback guys.

696
00:49:35,081 --> 00:49:37,781
There will definitely be rewards products

697
00:49:37,781 --> 00:49:40,981
or reward product coming on Wavespace for WaveCard,

698
00:49:41,721 --> 00:49:44,061
but probably sometime next year.

699
00:49:44,061 --> 00:50:12,481
Yeah, I mean, things are moving so quickly. I'm thinking for people booking flights, right? They're going away, they're going on holiday. You know how EasyJet have just come out of nowhere with their Bitcoin wallet. But like to integrate with EasyJet, so now I can buy my flights to take my family on holiday and get Sats back or some kind of reward back, because you've partnered with one of the most well-known airlines in Europe.

700
00:50:12,481 --> 00:50:20,581
uh that's just one thing airbnb another thing you know like a native tech company i can now book

701
00:50:20,581 --> 00:50:27,461
the the accommodation with the card and get some kind of rewards back and well andre over to air

702
00:50:27,461 --> 00:50:34,421
btc uh obviously would uh would be very much looking into this as well so yeah you're blowing

703
00:50:34,421 --> 00:50:42,901
open so many opportunities for companies that are stuck in that fiat. And there's sleeper

704
00:50:42,901 --> 00:50:48,561
Bitcoiners at all of these companies, right? They're trapped inside that system. And they're

705
00:50:48,561 --> 00:50:54,761
just thinking of a way that they can bring a solution to the board, to the business owner,

706
00:50:54,921 --> 00:50:59,381
whatever it is, whoever they work for, which says, right, this is going to unlock a whole

707
00:50:59,381 --> 00:51:05,061
bunch of new customers now and all we've got to do is you know partner with someone like wavespace

708
00:51:05,061 --> 00:51:10,441
where the the payment technology is already there and just offer something back in rewards

709
00:51:10,441 --> 00:51:18,841
and we could get thousands of more customers yeah that's a i believe there's a there's a big

710
00:51:18,841 --> 00:51:26,921
opportunity there for sure um also just for the reason uh that bitcoiners are on average quite

711
00:51:26,921 --> 00:51:29,781
kind of wealthy customers to have, right?

712
00:51:30,641 --> 00:51:34,541
There's also actually some interesting statistics is,

713
00:51:34,981 --> 00:51:38,041
I mean, obviously people, Bitcoiners who use Wavespace

714
00:51:38,041 --> 00:51:42,781
to live on Bitcoin, they spend quite a lot every single month

715
00:51:42,781 --> 00:51:44,241
because they need to live on Bitcoin.

716
00:51:44,821 --> 00:51:47,941
If you compare that to a Coinbase customer,

717
00:51:48,281 --> 00:51:50,221
the average Coinbase customer, I think does,

718
00:51:50,921 --> 00:51:53,421
the average active Coinbase customer

719
00:51:53,421 --> 00:51:56,161
does 300 euros in volume each month.

720
00:51:56,921 --> 00:52:03,401
Right. Then the average kind of Bitcoin broker customer, that's probably a little, quite a

721
00:52:03,401 --> 00:52:08,601
bit higher. And then, but if it's about kind of spending with a car, that's even higher

722
00:52:08,601 --> 00:52:26,257
than that And and then at the same time Bitcoin as being wealthier than the average kind of customer it a it a big use case I mean I don know Maybe you guys you can speak to the Setspec guys again

723
00:52:26,617 --> 00:52:28,917
They're probably also thinking about this nonstop.

724
00:52:28,917 --> 00:52:29,357
Yeah.

725
00:52:29,477 --> 00:52:29,897
Yeah.

726
00:52:30,077 --> 00:52:32,677
And I'm thinking about Lawrence over at ShoppingBit as well,

727
00:52:32,757 --> 00:52:35,897
because he told me a statistic,

728
00:52:36,077 --> 00:52:42,097
an interesting statistic about Bitcoin customers is like the level,

729
00:52:42,097 --> 00:52:49,137
they do the uh they they do the research they know what they want and it's generally a higher

730
00:52:49,137 --> 00:52:54,357
priced item than just like the the throwaway whatever click click click they're intentional

731
00:52:54,357 --> 00:53:01,397
buyers and their return rate is through the floor like is very low than you know compared to just

732
00:53:01,397 --> 00:53:08,197
the normal consumption um you know keyboard drug monkey out there that's smash buying whatever they

733
00:53:08,197 --> 00:53:16,057
want on amazon each day you know yeah i imagine i imagine shopping bits ah i haven't i think it's

734
00:53:16,057 --> 00:53:21,817
been a long time that i checked them out yeah yeah reach out to laurence i'll introduce you after

735
00:53:21,817 --> 00:53:30,057
the show uh shopping bit.com and uh definitely a great place for uh for you guys to to go and

736
00:53:30,057 --> 00:53:36,817
integrate with uh right we well we don't know much about you so what were you doing before this

737
00:53:36,817 --> 00:53:45,217
I mean, you've thrown in a fiat career to go all in on Bitcoin and grow in a Bitcoin company?

738
00:53:46,597 --> 00:53:54,557
So for me, let me go back to maybe when I discovered Bitcoin, because it all fits within the same.

739
00:53:54,597 --> 00:53:55,937
It answers your question, essentially.

740
00:53:56,877 --> 00:54:02,457
In 2015 and 16, I was studying mechanical engineering.

741
00:54:02,457 --> 00:54:07,677
and I kind of was always, yeah,

742
00:54:07,837 --> 00:54:10,397
I come from a family that is very scientific,

743
00:54:10,397 --> 00:54:14,417
so I don't really have a lot of kind of knowledge

744
00:54:14,417 --> 00:54:18,597
from the household about business, economics and so forth.

745
00:54:19,337 --> 00:54:23,097
But I knew that mechanical engineering wasn't for me.

746
00:54:23,977 --> 00:54:27,637
And then I kind of stumbled upon this German business school

747
00:54:27,637 --> 00:54:31,897
that is focused on founders, essentially on creating founders

748
00:54:31,897 --> 00:54:34,777
or like on teaching you how to start a company.

749
00:54:35,337 --> 00:54:38,697
And that was super interesting to me that in 2017, I switched.

750
00:54:39,217 --> 00:54:43,637
I kind of started going to this business school.

751
00:54:44,097 --> 00:54:46,757
Essentially, the summer before I went to the business school,

752
00:54:46,817 --> 00:54:51,317
I was like, okay, I'm going to study business now, economics and so forth.

753
00:54:51,357 --> 00:54:53,277
It's interesting, but I know nothing about it.

754
00:54:53,737 --> 00:54:54,497
I need to dig in.

755
00:54:55,337 --> 00:55:00,217
And so that's when I kind of started reading Financial Times.

756
00:55:00,217 --> 00:55:05,417
and then I came across central banking.

757
00:55:05,637 --> 00:55:06,637
What is it?

758
00:55:06,837 --> 00:55:07,617
And so forth.

759
00:55:07,997 --> 00:55:12,237
Why is the inflation target 2%, not 3%, not 1%?

760
00:55:12,477 --> 00:55:15,377
And because I have this scientific background,

761
00:55:15,377 --> 00:55:19,097
I want to understand the difficult problems first.

762
00:55:19,417 --> 00:55:21,697
That's what interests me.

763
00:55:22,497 --> 00:55:23,997
And so I couldn't find an answer

764
00:55:23,997 --> 00:55:27,517
and I really struggled with reading Financial Times

765
00:55:27,517 --> 00:55:29,377
and kind of making sense of a lot.

766
00:55:30,217 --> 00:55:37,837
Eventually, I kind of understood more and more about just the business financing and business economics make sense.

767
00:55:38,277 --> 00:55:43,057
But all the macroeconomic stuff was always kind of didn't make a lot of sense to me.

768
00:55:43,477 --> 00:55:52,117
And then during that summer in 2017, I read a headline saying that Bitcoin crossed 3000 euros.

769
00:55:52,117 --> 00:55:56,637
And I was actually on holidays with my parents.

770
00:55:57,597 --> 00:56:05,937
And I remember that my father actually asked me in 2014 if I knew what Bitcoin was, because it just broke.

771
00:56:06,177 --> 00:56:09,077
It just crashed from 1,200 to 200.

772
00:56:09,857 --> 00:56:11,477
And he was talking about like this.

773
00:56:11,477 --> 00:56:21,437
I think at that time it was like the topic was these Chinese miners and kind of, I don't know, moving money abroad and so forth.

774
00:56:21,437 --> 00:56:23,297
and it doesn't really matter.

775
00:56:23,477 --> 00:56:25,517
But essentially from that moment,

776
00:56:25,577 --> 00:56:27,697
I was like, okay, I'm trying to understand this

777
00:56:27,697 --> 00:56:30,157
and kind of Bitcoin makes a lot of sense to me.

778
00:56:30,317 --> 00:56:31,737
Not at that stage yet.

779
00:56:31,797 --> 00:56:33,797
I was kind of interested in Bitcoin

780
00:56:33,797 --> 00:56:35,277
because it broke 3000

781
00:56:35,277 --> 00:56:37,477
and it kind of recovered from 200

782
00:56:37,477 --> 00:56:40,017
and there had to be something there.

783
00:56:40,077 --> 00:56:42,337
Then I digged into it every single day, essentially.

784
00:56:43,117 --> 00:56:45,217
I started my studies at this business school,

785
00:56:45,217 --> 00:56:49,977
but it didn't stop kind of learning more about Bitcoin.

786
00:56:49,977 --> 00:56:58,897
And so by the end of my studies, I already knew that I want to eventually start a company and I want to do it in Bitcoin.

787
00:56:59,737 --> 00:57:05,897
And so I kind of looked out for the best next steps that would kind of make this possible eventually.

788
00:57:06,617 --> 00:57:12,277
And so I started working at SumUp, which is which are doing these card readers, right?

789
00:57:13,017 --> 00:57:18,777
These debit card readers started working for them in the Berlin office.

790
00:57:18,777 --> 00:57:30,497
And then at the end of 2020, I got introduced to this Bitcoin brokerage in the UK, which you might know.

791
00:57:30,937 --> 00:57:33,677
It doesn't exist anymore, but it was called Mode.

792
00:57:34,237 --> 00:57:35,837
I don't know if you've heard about that.

793
00:57:35,837 --> 00:57:37,277
Mode? No, I don't know.

794
00:57:37,377 --> 00:57:37,917
I don't know.

795
00:57:38,037 --> 00:57:39,077
Who was behind that?

796
00:57:39,077 --> 00:57:53,853
I mean mostly this one wealthy billionaire guy who wanted to venture into Bitcoin essentially You can read up about it

797
00:57:53,993 --> 00:57:55,993
It was actually an interesting story.

798
00:57:56,153 --> 00:57:59,833
But essentially, so I started working for this Bitcoin brokerage.

799
00:57:59,833 --> 00:58:03,553
I met my now two co-founders, Avidas and Mantas.

800
00:58:04,793 --> 00:58:10,113
And it was like just a Bitcoin brokerage, custodial Bitcoin app.

801
00:58:10,633 --> 00:58:11,573
You could buy Bitcoin.

802
00:58:11,673 --> 00:58:12,613
You could sell Bitcoin.

803
00:58:13,173 --> 00:58:15,613
you could earn interest on it and so forth.

804
00:58:16,993 --> 00:58:23,193
Mode actually went public via direct listing at the end of 2020

805
00:58:23,193 --> 00:58:28,173
and was the first Bitcoin treasury company, if you can believe it.

806
00:58:28,173 --> 00:58:35,473
They just kind of made a lot of bad strategic,

807
00:58:35,853 --> 00:58:38,593
poor strategic decisions along the way,

808
00:58:38,593 --> 00:58:43,913
focusing on something on like traditional payments and so forth.

809
00:58:44,633 --> 00:58:49,333
But essentially, yeah, it's super interesting story for sure.

810
00:58:51,273 --> 00:58:57,633
Then I, you know, I worked there as a business analyst in the product team.

811
00:58:57,773 --> 00:59:02,513
And then I worked at Coinsbee, which is a bid refill competitor.

812
00:59:03,033 --> 00:59:05,673
And then I founded this company.

813
00:59:05,673 --> 00:59:09,673
So I kind of already knew that I wanted to go into Bitcoin.

814
00:59:09,953 --> 00:59:10,613
I didn't know how.

815
00:59:11,093 --> 00:59:17,773
So first, you know, through working at a regulated payment service provider, then working at a Bitcoin brokerage.

816
00:59:18,213 --> 00:59:25,793
Then I actually worked at 21Bitcoin for a couple of months, supporting them with various different things.

817
00:59:26,153 --> 00:59:28,673
And then working at Coinsby.

818
00:59:29,213 --> 00:59:33,273
And then, yeah, kind of felt ready to create my own thing.

819
00:59:33,273 --> 00:59:35,093
And the timing was right, you know.

820
00:59:35,093 --> 00:59:42,233
and yeah perfect mate well well done congrats on uh on the launch and uh and everything that

821
00:59:42,233 --> 00:59:49,273
you've achieved so far it's uh it like i say can't get my hands on it because uh in the uk at the

822
00:59:49,273 --> 00:59:53,293
moment it's a shame you weren't around when i was living in france i was i would definitely have been

823
00:59:53,293 --> 00:59:59,013
uh trialing that but um yeah i'll send this across to uh to all the bitcoiners that are living over

824
00:59:59,013 --> 01:00:05,313
there that want to plug in and hopefully this will reach a wider audience.

825
01:00:05,613 --> 01:00:07,853
Are you going to be at any of the conferences coming up?

826
01:00:07,853 --> 01:00:13,813
So people can, will you be hosting any booths or what's your plans for the end of the year

827
01:00:13,813 --> 01:00:15,273
so people can come and find out more?

828
01:00:16,473 --> 01:00:19,713
I mean, people can always join our Telegram group.

829
01:00:20,653 --> 01:00:25,073
I think it's just called Wavespace Community, but you can also find it on our website.

830
01:00:25,073 --> 01:00:30,093
We have a really kind of vibrant and family-like community on there.

831
01:00:30,213 --> 01:00:30,753
It's super cool.

832
01:00:31,853 --> 01:00:36,553
But then in terms of conferences, we will be kind of at conferences

833
01:00:36,553 --> 01:00:40,093
at most of the ones that exist in Europe over the next 12 months.

834
01:00:41,013 --> 01:00:44,193
And booths really depends on where we go.

835
01:00:45,253 --> 01:00:50,793
I will be going to Bitcoin Forum in Bavaria, which is in two weeks.

836
01:00:50,793 --> 01:00:55,073
So for the German listeners, I will be there with a small booth.

837
01:00:55,713 --> 01:00:59,313
And then we will also be at Lugano, Lugano's Plan B.

838
01:01:00,093 --> 01:01:06,873
And then obviously next year, yeah, we still have to create that list and plan around that.

839
01:01:07,113 --> 01:01:07,433
But yeah.

840
01:01:08,033 --> 01:01:08,713
Yeah, for sure.

841
01:01:09,073 --> 01:01:09,353
Okay.

842
01:01:09,593 --> 01:01:09,973
Right.

843
01:01:10,213 --> 01:01:11,653
Felix, last question.

844
01:01:12,253 --> 01:01:17,393
If you had one last orange pill left to give to somebody, who would you give it to and why?

845
01:01:18,613 --> 01:01:20,773
Oh, yeah, that's an interesting question.

846
01:01:20,793 --> 01:01:31,953
I think I would probably give it to Christine Lagarde.

847
01:01:33,773 --> 01:01:38,233
I think that would be the most effective way to get what we want.

848
01:01:38,673 --> 01:01:39,673
But yeah.

849
01:01:40,833 --> 01:01:41,833
Oh my goodness.

850
01:01:42,213 --> 01:01:42,573
Yes.

851
01:01:42,993 --> 01:01:43,253
Wow.

852
01:01:43,593 --> 01:01:47,193
I mean, imagine, you know, that she would just like one day from one day to the other,

853
01:01:47,193 --> 01:01:51,853
she would be like okay we're now introducing bitcoin as the reserve asset you can now pay

854
01:01:51,853 --> 01:01:59,613
with bitcoin anywhere and so on that would be quite quite funny yeah that would be yeah

855
01:01:59,613 --> 01:02:05,313
i mean what's going on at the moment is well we're at that time of recording

856
01:02:05,313 --> 01:02:11,673
end of september she's been pushing the idea that the digital euro is going to go live in october

857
01:02:11,673 --> 01:02:20,073
for the uh well essentially a cbdc any further news on that because i'm not seeing anything

858
01:02:20,073 --> 01:02:28,193
to be honest not really i think the last time i thought about this topic i mean every time

859
01:02:28,193 --> 01:02:32,513
they announce something you know i look into it a little bit but it feels like they've been

860
01:02:32,513 --> 01:02:40,793
announcing it for a long time um let's see i mean i have no idea whether they will actually launch it

861
01:02:40,793 --> 01:02:43,653
one thing that I think

862
01:02:43,653 --> 01:02:46,293
you know a lot of people are fearful about that

863
01:02:46,293 --> 01:02:48,473
obviously right

864
01:02:48,473 --> 01:02:52,373
of course they should be fearful about that

865
01:02:52,373 --> 01:02:56,053
but I think you know the kind of private banking

866
01:02:56,053 --> 01:02:59,113
system is still powerful enough to not

867
01:02:59,113 --> 01:03:02,293
yeah to kind of

868
01:03:02,293 --> 01:03:05,353
fight this because private banks they don't it's not in their interest

869
01:03:05,353 --> 01:03:08,473
to actually have a CBDC

870
01:03:08,473 --> 01:03:09,173
right

871
01:03:09,173 --> 01:03:10,493
they would

872
01:03:10,493 --> 01:03:10,793
lose a

873
01:03:10,793 --> 01:03:27,309
lot of money if that would be implemented so I think we have them on our side this time um yeah let see let see really i have no idea i almost want them to do it the quicker the sooner

874
01:03:27,309 --> 01:03:34,369
the better because the more chance it will have of like a quick death a failure and uh waking up

875
01:03:34,369 --> 01:03:40,029
it'll wake up a lot of people that uh that are still walking blindly into these traps that are

876
01:03:40,029 --> 01:03:48,229
being set for them uh but yeah let's wait and see uh but as long as we've got people like you

877
01:03:48,229 --> 01:03:54,969
building companies building these tools that we need then you know there's bright orange future

878
01:03:54,969 --> 01:03:59,309
for everybody involved so thank you for what you're doing and and thanks for for coming on

879
01:03:59,309 --> 01:04:07,209
the show so if people want to reach out um go to wave.space or follow the twitter account is that

880
01:04:07,209 --> 01:04:14,629
active as well yeah of course uh so yeah go to wave.space um if you want to engage with us

881
01:04:14,629 --> 01:04:22,429
it's at on x at wave space underscore and then um i think the best thing if you're really excited

882
01:04:22,429 --> 01:04:27,789
about this is just just to join our telegram group um all three of us our entire team is there

883
01:04:27,789 --> 01:04:34,629
and uh engage with us um yeah thanks for having me no of course mate thanks for coming on have a

884
01:04:34,629 --> 01:04:36,189
great rest of your day.

885
01:04:37,089 --> 01:04:37,449
You too.

886
01:04:38,669 --> 01:04:40,689
Well, thank you everybody for listening.

887
01:04:40,869 --> 01:04:42,669
Thank you, Felix, for coming on

888
01:04:42,669 --> 01:04:44,649
and discussing everything that you've been

889
01:04:44,649 --> 01:04:46,609
up to over there at the

890
01:04:46,609 --> 01:04:48,309
Wavespace headquarters

891
01:04:48,309 --> 01:04:49,629
building

892
01:04:49,629 --> 01:04:52,269
something for Bitcoiners

893
01:04:52,269 --> 01:04:54,329
and it's always amazing

894
01:04:54,329 --> 01:04:56,549
when these products are built

895
01:04:56,549 --> 01:04:58,489
for Bitcoiners by Bitcoiners

896
01:04:58,489 --> 01:05:00,389
because they're scratching their own itch.

897
01:05:00,489 --> 01:05:02,369
That is the entrepreneurial way.

898
01:05:02,669 --> 01:05:04,469
As an entrepreneur, you

899
01:05:04,469 --> 01:05:08,929
have a problem in front of you you know how to solve it there isn't that solution out there so

900
01:05:08,929 --> 01:05:14,249
you go down well build it and you find the people that you can build it with and you utilize their

901
01:05:14,249 --> 01:05:19,989
skills and their services and their knowledge and boom this is how we build in bitcoin this is how

902
01:05:19,989 --> 01:05:25,729
the parallel economy is getting built out and you can meet people like that if you get to the

903
01:05:25,729 --> 01:05:31,409
conferences that's a that is a massive shill for conferences getting out and meeting people

904
01:05:31,409 --> 01:05:33,449
we've got BitFest in Manchester

905
01:05:33,449 --> 01:05:35,749
21st and 23rd of November

906
01:05:35,749 --> 01:05:37,649
and then slight clash

907
01:05:37,649 --> 01:05:39,589
because you've got to get to BTC Japan

908
01:05:39,589 --> 01:05:41,609
after that, that's around the 23rd

909
01:05:41,609 --> 01:05:43,589
24th of November, both

910
01:05:43,589 --> 01:05:45,649
of these conferences are offering

911
01:05:45,649 --> 01:05:47,629
you a discount of 10% if

912
01:05:47,629 --> 01:05:49,609
you use the code BITTON at checkout

913
01:05:49,609 --> 01:05:51,649
links are in the

914
01:05:51,649 --> 01:05:53,409
show notes, I'll see you at Manchester

915
01:05:53,409 --> 01:05:55,669
if you're coming along, it'd be great to

916
01:05:55,669 --> 01:05:57,629
answer any of your questions, hang

917
01:05:57,629 --> 01:05:59,469
out and start

918
01:05:59,469 --> 01:06:07,409
learning together more of what's going on in the UK especially because UK Bitcoiners they feel as

919
01:06:07,409 --> 01:06:13,909
though they've been throttled a little bit by the regulations and they have and you've had

920
01:06:13,909 --> 01:06:20,149
operation choke point 2.0 that was going on in the US but that spread globally obviously if you

921
01:06:20,149 --> 01:06:27,229
understand how this whole fiat fucking economy works because it's dollar-based everything is

922
01:06:27,229 --> 01:06:33,329
downstream of that and yeah it's been it's been tough for uk bitcoiners but that will not stop

923
01:06:33,329 --> 01:06:40,689
them building and getting along to uh to bitfest in manchester or look out go join orange pill app

924
01:06:40,689 --> 01:06:48,169
find your local bitcoiners start that easy where is the dude that's five to ten miles away from you

925
01:06:48,169 --> 01:06:56,429
that you had no idea existed like you're still sitting there on a friday night suffering your

926
01:06:56,429 --> 01:07:03,109
enormity friends that are ostracizing you slowly because all you want to talk about is bitcoin and

927
01:07:03,109 --> 01:07:08,289
how this is the answer and how it's going to change society and shape the world and how you

928
01:07:08,289 --> 01:07:14,889
want to get out of your fiat existence and into a bitcoin company or start something you can't have

929
01:07:14,889 --> 01:07:19,909
those conversations unless you are with another bitcoiner and you can't you're not just going to

930
01:07:19,909 --> 01:07:23,509
bump into each other in the street like you're not going to see the guy wearing a bitcoin hat

931
01:07:23,509 --> 01:07:25,809
how often does that happen?

932
01:07:26,289 --> 01:07:27,209
get on Orange Pill App

933
01:07:27,209 --> 01:07:28,469
I'm telling you

934
01:07:28,469 --> 01:07:30,069
if you get on Orange Pill App

935
01:07:30,069 --> 01:07:32,209
and you download it

936
01:07:32,209 --> 01:07:33,249
and you sign up

937
01:07:33,249 --> 01:07:35,229
the link is in the show notes by the way

938
01:07:35,229 --> 01:07:36,309
you will get

939
01:07:36,309 --> 01:07:37,729
I guarantee you will find someone

940
01:07:37,729 --> 01:07:39,289
you will find someone

941
01:07:39,289 --> 01:07:40,269
you could be travelling

942
01:07:40,269 --> 01:07:41,289
and you'll find someone

943
01:07:41,289 --> 01:07:43,569
you could be just sitting on your sofa

944
01:07:43,569 --> 01:07:46,009
and someone could be five miles away

945
01:07:46,009 --> 01:07:47,629
or two or three towns over

946
01:07:47,629 --> 01:07:48,809
it doesn't matter

947
01:07:48,809 --> 01:07:51,389
you need to find these people

948
01:07:51,389 --> 01:07:52,529
and get connected

949
01:07:52,529 --> 01:07:58,369
it uh right that's enough of that preaching thank you everybody for listening don't forget go stack

950
01:07:58,369 --> 01:08:04,949
your sats across europe with relay r-e-l-a-i dot ch forward slash bitten congratulations again to the

951
01:08:04,949 --> 01:08:12,729
team for getting that maker license and self custody your bitcoin i said it again i said it

952
01:08:12,729 --> 01:08:21,369
at the beginning i'll say it now without the music to be as specific as i possibly can self custody

953
01:08:21,369 --> 01:08:30,189
your Bitcoin, go to bitbox.swiss forward slash Bitten, order the Bitbox O2 or the Bitbox Nova

954
01:08:30,189 --> 01:08:39,009
Bitcoin only edition hardware wallets and get a 5% discount with the code Bitten, B-I-T-T-E-N.

955
01:08:39,929 --> 01:08:42,569
Is that clear enough? Catch you on the next show.