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Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.

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This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can

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around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean

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for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so

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much for listening. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Once Bitten Podcast.

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Joining me today is Simon from Fanfares. He goes as ShortFiat on Twitter and also more active on

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NOSTA where he has been building out Fanfares.io. We do talk about that towards the end of this show.

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It is a Nostra native platform for creators to be able to get their work out into the world and earn in Bitcoin.

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So we are talking still the value for value verse and taking Bitcoin mainstream as a medium exchange and getting creators paid.

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and on that note if you are listening to this podcast please consider stopping it and making

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sure that you are listening to it on the fountain app or another value for value enabled podcast

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platform it's up to us the bitcoiners to get behind these tools and test them and give feedback

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and use them and if not you then who because otherwise they're never going to get better and

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They're never going to get adopted, and we'll never get out of these walled gardens that we find ourselves in.

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And, yeah, that's the shill.

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Simon will be at BitFest this coming weekend in Manchester.

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There's a link in the show notes to BitFest, and you can get a discount using the code BITTON.

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The Fountain team are also going to be there.

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These are great Britcoiners, guys.

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Like, you know, Fanfares, British built.

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Fountain, British built.

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So let's support our local British Bitcoiners.

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In this episode, Simon and I spend the first hour or so going through what's happening out there in the wider world of Bitcoin mixed with macro, the financialization of Bitcoin, whatever you want to call it.

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We're talking about Bitcoin treasury companies and these loan products that have been the talk of the space now for a good nine months, maybe a little bit longer.

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and Simon and I, we just want to point out some of the dangers here.

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I spent 18 years in foreign exchange markets.

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Simon spent many years trading for himself using tools that he built.

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So he's got vast experience in this area as well,

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just watching markets and seeing how they behave.

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So it's great to get the viewpoint

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and I hope that there are some things you can take away from this

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as you try and navigate these waters of the financialization of Bitcoin.

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Should you be touching these things or should you be holding back and just sitting on your stack?

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Is there a place for them?

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Obviously, there is because they're here and something's happening with them.

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Are we too early?

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I don't know. We get into it.

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So I hope it's going to give you some kind of context.

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meanwhile please make sure

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you are stacking sats

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and like I said before

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if we're not supporting the tools

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and the companies that are being built out there

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then who will be

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Relay across Europe

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R-E-L-A-I

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Dossie Age forward slash Bitten

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are now fully licensed

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to operate across Europe

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with their Mika

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they've got it

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took them two years

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but there you have it

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I've got Julian Lineger

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coming on the show soon

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to talk about that

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that journey

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but yeah Relay

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r-e-l-a-i.ch forward slash bitten and start stacking today or get your big business onto

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a bitcoin standard because they have relay relay private as well over there you can use swan bitcoin

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for these services if you are in the u.s that's swan bitcoin.com forward slash bitten self-custody

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is the name of this game if you are not self-custodying your bitcoin you are not owning bitcoin so

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So that's like New Year's resolution, guys.

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Put it on top of your Christmas list.

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Or get to a conference and buy a hardware wallet direct from the producer.

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Supporting the show for a long time now have been Bitbox.

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They've got the Bitbox O2 and they have the Bitbox Nova.

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These are both Bitcoin-only editions of the Bitbox.

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And you can get one by going to bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten.

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and that will give you a 5% discount.

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Paywithflash.com is the place for you to go

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if you want to start accepting,

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or should I say demanding,

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Bitcoin for your goods and services.

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The news across the wires,

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the last couple of days,

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excuse me, couple of weeks,

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has been that Square have upgraded their systems

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to be able to accept Bitcoin purchases.

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That's unlocked 4 million merchants to accept Bitcoin.

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So, get over to paywithflash.com.

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see what they can offer you.

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Do not be left behind.

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If you don't have a square terminal, it doesn't matter.

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Paywithflash.com have got you covered.

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And they're a Bitcoin-only company built by Bitcoiners.

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If you want to meet Bitcoiners, which you should,

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get out there in real life and up your social network,

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get over to Club Orange, which has rebranded from Orange Pill App.

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Meanwhile, enjoy this show with Simon.

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All right, Simon, you're back, back on Once Bitten.

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Great to see you again.

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And last time we caught up was in person at Cypher Monk House in London.

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Yes, that was it. Great to see you there.

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Thank you very much for being back back.

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It's always good to chat with you about all things Bitcoin.

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Yeah, well, we're going to talk about a topic that we spoke about at that event.

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And by the way, I'm going back there on Saturday.

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to talk about this subject.

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They've invited me back and going with Claire and Caitlin as well.

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So Cypher Monk House in Bloomsbury, if anybody's around in London,

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you should go and check it out.

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Its doors are open all year round, and they have some great artwork.

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Great Bitcoiners are always there to answer questions.

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And they do put on events, not monthly, but quite regularly.

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So looking forward to getting back there.

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But we were there because there was a Nostra event,

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which my wife was part of organizing for the Women in Bitcoin group that she helps coordinate with.

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And of course, it's open to anyone. It's not just for women.

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It's that she wants to get more people talking about different aspects of Bitcoin.

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And it just so happened that this one was about Nostra and you were in town and you could come and talk about Fanfares and your project.

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And we'll get on to that towards the end of the show.

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But we did get talking about the Bitcoin treasury companies, the latest kind of new, big, shiny thing that people were being enticed with.

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And we shared some concerns.

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So we're going to get into those concerns.

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And I just want to get the people who are listening up to speed as to who you are.

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So do you just want to introduce yourself and give a background of where you came from, what the fiat role was, how you found Bitcoin?

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And then we'll start talking about this subject.

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Yeah. OK. Yeah. I mean, I've got to say that Nostra event that we were both at was really good.

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That is a great venue, the Cypher Monk House.

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But yeah, I think my background, I was a software developer for seven years and then I got into trading.

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So I was trading the financial markets, particularly around property futures for quite a long time, interest rate futures and generally kind of all the different financial products that I thought I could get an edge on.

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And I was doing that as a private trader for quite a long time.

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And eventually I discovered Bitcoin and thought, yeah, this is an interesting thing to trade without really fully understanding what the technology was.

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But as a former software developer, that should have been a logical thing for me to do was to really look into the code and see what was really going on.

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But it took me a while to do that and took me a while to really figure out exactly what it was.

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But, yeah, I think I was probably the classic king that the price goes up and stuck around for the revolution.

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Once I really understood what it was, I thought, yeah, this is an amazing technology.

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And it potentially gets us over a lot of the problems that I have seen for a very long time in the financial system,

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you know, with fiat money not really being a long term store of value,

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the way the governments can control it and print more of it is not great for the population

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I was a gold bug for a long time sort of post the the 2008 financial crisis I was very much

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into gold coins and burying them in the back garden and that never really appeared to be a

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real solution to the problems that we had in the financial system because it was hard to imagine a

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day would come when you'd go down to the local supermarket to buy a loaf of bread with a gold

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coin or a silver coin but um yeah it was it was the only way i could think of of ensuring

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that risk of you know a real problem within the financial system back then but you know once i

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understood bitcoin it was like oh well you know people have actually come up with a much more

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sophisticated solution to the problems of fiat money you know and um that you know really kind

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of took me down the rabbit hole where once you start to get a glimpse of what it can be you

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explore a lot more. You read the books, you talk to people, you go to the conferences,

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you find out what it really potentially can be. But yeah, I think that's probably quite

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interesting because you've actually worked in the financial markets and I've been, you know,

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kind of a trader in the financial markets. But when we met at that event, it was interesting.

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We both had a very similar view about the Bitcoin treasury companies but also about the leverage that getting built up within the Bitcoin space with people that we know that are starting to borrow against their Bitcoin and ultimately give up their custody of their Bitcoin

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by borrowing against it. So we had a similar take on it, which I hadn't really found many other

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people that thought the same way as me, but maybe a testament to the fact that we know a bit more

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about the way that people operate in the financial markets and the potential things that people like

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BlackRock and Larry Fink might do if they really want to end up owning people's Bitcoin at some

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point. Right. Now, Lauren's not here to ask the first question, but if she were, she would probably

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ask after I would have guided her. And I mean, she's heard the term now so many times because

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she's around me and the rest of the family all day long. But what is, in your opinion, in your

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mind what is a Bitcoin treasury company? I mean yeah the first Bitcoin treasury company I guess

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that was was MicroStrategy and so that was Michael Saylor basically took the decision to

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use the cash on a company's balance sheet to buy Bitcoin and I think he got in sort of 2020 or 2021

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and people then went and bought the MicroStrategy shares because they wanted to own Bitcoin

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and it's it's kind of a feature of bitcoin that it's quite hard to take self-custody it's not a

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simple process that you just do on a whim and you know if you don't do it properly then you can lose

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your keys you could be hacked so it requires a work a bit of learning potentially learning from

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somebody else but it requires some time and some effort to to hold bitcoin in a self-custody

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situation securely. And some people, I guess, don't want to do that work. They want to be in

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Bitcoin. They want to be in for the price goes up. And a way to do that is to buy MicroStrategy

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and hold it in a brokerage account. And when MicroStrategy first started doing this, that was

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one of the few options that people would have to hold it in a normal brokerage account. So they're

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effectively providing a custody service. They're holding the Bitcoin for their shareholders.

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And in the case of micro strategy, certainly during the bull market, their share price has been above the net asset value of the Bitcoin that's on their balance sheet.

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And during the bear market, I think their share price was actually about 50% of the Bitcoin value that they had on the balance sheet.

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So that might give people an indication of what could happen to micro strategy in a bear market.

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But yeah, it's kind of it's an easier way to own Bitcoin.

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but you are relying upon somebody else to custody it for you.

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So in the event that, let's say, the American government wanted to capture everyone's Bitcoin,

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they'd find it much easier to capture your Bitcoin from MicroStrategy's balance sheet

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than they would if you have your own self-custody wallet,

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where they don't know where you are or necessarily who you are.

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So it's more convenient in the short run,

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but it's more risky in terms of ownership because you don't really own it.

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You own a claim over it with the shares.

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And if you have been buying any time in the last couple of years,

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you're probably overpaying for it because the share price has been above

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the actual Bitcoin value on the balance sheet.

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So for MicroStrategy, this has been a great win

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because they could just go and issue more shares

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and increase the value of their company by issuing more shares

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because they then go and buy more Bitcoin at the Bitcoin price

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but the shares that they're selling are above the Bitcoin price.

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So they're gaining every time they do that.

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And that's been a big win for them.

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It's a very easy way of making money is just promote themselves

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as being a Bitcoin treasury company and sell the shares to people that buy them

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that don't necessarily know that they're actually overpaying for the Bitcoins

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on the balance sheet.

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But again, that's what's been going on.

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People have seen this.

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They've copied it.

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There's now loads of Bitcoin treasury companies

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and lots of them are actually trading at a premium to their asset value as well.

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So it's created a whole new breed of companies

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that are in some ways a bit like alternative coins

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that have been in other cycles

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where some of them you've seen the prices go kind of 10x

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and then drop right back down again.

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I think there was one company in the UK that listed our name

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and that's what their share price did.

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They were VC backed just like a lot of the alternative coins were.

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You know, it's a kind of market dynamic thing rather than a value thing.

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You know, usually in these situations, there's somebody who's going to take the money from the unsuspecting investors that get in at the wrong price and discover that they've lost their value.

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So Bitcoin treasuries companies are not necessarily a good thing because they create a kind of centralization of ownership of Bitcoin.

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They create a vulnerability to a government capture of Bitcoin.

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The real solution, in my opinion, is for people to do the work, understand self-custody, and buy the Bitcoin themselves and hold it themselves.

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But you could argue that the existence of Bitcoin treasury companies is creating more PR for Bitcoin.

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It's bringing more people in.

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Maybe it's a stepping stone for them to actually get to self-custody because they go through that process of experiencing the price going up before they actually go down and do the hard work of owning the Bitcoin itself.

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yeah i mean look it's here it's not going away and i just want people to to do the real due

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diligence here to do the work to to do the research not just hoon in to the next great big

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thing and it just seems that there's a few narratives being built around these companies

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in the case of micro strategy which you know to use that example when

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sailor started stacking bitcoin way back in i think august 2020 was the first because i think

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he announced in september i've got my dates right uh i think the initial buyer was 50 million or no

219
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500 million and then uh each month he would dca with profits anything i think that was netted over

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$50 million per month in revenue was swept into Bitcoin. So you're talking at that stage,

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I think the company was 25, 30 years old, listed on the exchange, same CEO, and majority shares held

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by him. That is a completely different set of circumstances to what we're seeing now with

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these companies that are coming out of the woodwork that are doing a reverse listing,

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and we'll talk about how that mechanic works in a second,

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to issue shares to what the narrative being crafted very,

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very cleverly is to trapped capital.

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But that is coming with kind of the story that it's the three and a half trillion dollar bond market

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that is just dying to get itself involved in the Bitcoin,

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but it can't because of regulations and this, that and the other thing.

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which I think is a bit of a clever narrative.

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But what's happening is it's really directed at Bitcoiners

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who understand they want exposure to Bitcoin in their pensions

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that they can't touch for maybe the next 20 years.

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And they've not been able to get exposure up until now.

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And they're buying the stocks with their pensions.

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And like you said, a lot of these stocks are pumping

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and then they are dumping.

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it's my worry that the the the pensions the private pensions of the plebs is an exit is the

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exit liquidity that uh is being lined up for the pipe investors the vcs the capital that's there

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on the table before the listing then gets unlocked and then it gets dumped so let's

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let's delve into a little bit of of that what so reverse ipo um or reverse listing whatever

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terminology people want to like uh use how do you in your understanding how is that how is that

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happening with with some of these companies how are they getting themselves onto a stock exchange

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um yeah it looks like there's cash shells that are um being offered up as as a way for

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um a company to kind of a reverse takeover is where the company with the value is taken over

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by the cash shell that doesn't really have a business um and it you know they've already got

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the listing and that that gives the company that wants to get the listing a faster route onto the

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exchange because if they actually need to do an IPO themselves,

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it could take much longer depending on whether they're going on to AIM

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or onto the main market.

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But yeah, by getting a faster route, if they felt like there's a wave

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of Bitcoin treasury interest, then it would be fair to assume

253
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that that might not last.

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And so the sensible thing to do would be to do it through reverse takeover

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and try and get into the way before it comes to an end.

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Because, yeah, I mean, when you get an unusual premium like that,

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it's almost free money for the company that has the premium

258
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because they could just keep on issuing new shares,

259
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keep on buying more Bitcoin.

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It's what MicroStrategy have been doing.

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They've also been doing some debt instruments

262
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and stuff like that as well.

263
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But, yeah, ultimately, it's kind of arbitraging

264
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the people that are willing to buy the shares

265
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with actually buying the Bitcoin themselves.

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and so yeah I mean reverse takeover is one route that people are taking

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whoever's doing that should be quite careful because you never really know what's in the terms and conditions of the company that's taking you over

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there can be some real nasties that only come out after the deal is done that might actually give them control of the company and mean that they can actually take the value for themselves so it um yeah it a risky game um like you say

269
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yeah the vcs have definitely made some money out of this the retail investors um that are in that

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position where they've got money in the pension and they can't actually invest it into bitcoin itself

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are seeing this as a way of like you say getting exposure to bitcoin but they're paying the premium

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which means they are the exit liquidity for the people that are funding the deal and making a quick return on it.

273
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So it's not necessarily fair. I mean, whether or not people understand that they are paying a premium,

274
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it really kind of, you know, that they should be doing that research for themselves.

275
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But yeah, it's kind of, it's a quick win for some people.

276
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Yeah, it's not really Bitcoin. That's the thing.

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You know, it's kind of it's not what we know Bitcoin to be in terms of this alternative system of money, which really is intended as a currency, not a store of value.

278
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And that's where we get onto the whole kind of wider picture of this.

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You know, Michael Saylor is selling a message to the world saying that Bitcoin is a store of value.

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Whereas what it really started out at for anyone that reads the Bitcoin white paper, it started out as a currency.

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and the fact that the value has been going up for the last 16 years um obviously not in a straight

282
00:22:15,085 --> 00:22:20,265
line but it's been going up overall does suggest that it has been a pretty good store of value and

283
00:22:20,265 --> 00:22:25,165
you could sell it as that you know but of course past performance is never a necessary predictor

284
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of a future future performance and you know the more that we kind of go down this route of

285
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promoting Bitcoin as a store of value and holding it within a shell like MicroStrategy or one of

286
00:22:39,885 --> 00:22:45,865
the others, the more we distract people from what the technology is really all about, is being able

287
00:22:45,865 --> 00:22:52,205
to pay people on a peer-to-peer basis without a bank being in the middle. Because when you have a

288
00:22:52,205 --> 00:22:58,125
bank in the middle, they can stop you making the payment if they don't like you, or if they want to

289
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create additional money and inflate the balance sheet, then they could do that as well.

290
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And the value of your money that you're exchanging can be eroded by them over time.

291
00:23:07,765 --> 00:23:13,325
But with Bitcoin, they can't do that because anyone can pay anyone without censorship, without interference.

292
00:23:13,565 --> 00:23:17,225
There is no third party that makes it happen. It's a decentralized network.

293
00:23:17,545 --> 00:23:21,425
And the rules of the system are that there can never be more than 21 million Bitcoin.

294
00:23:21,845 --> 00:23:26,545
So you're protected against those two things the banks can do to you with the bank money.

295
00:23:26,885 --> 00:23:30,225
So that's what Bitcoin to me is really all about.

296
00:23:30,225 --> 00:23:44,925
It's appear to be a money that gives you the freedom to pay whoever you want and to not have your money compensated either through freezing of your bank account or through slow inflation over time.

297
00:23:46,585 --> 00:23:51,585
So, I mean, in some sense, yes, it is a store of value because there's never been more than 21 million.

298
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but if we don't get adoption as a currency over the long term then is it really going to be a

299
00:24:00,085 --> 00:24:05,065
store of value you know because if if it doesn't actually have a utility if people don't actually

300
00:24:05,065 --> 00:24:11,965
use it to pay for things then is it really going to get more people into the network and make the

301
00:24:11,965 --> 00:24:17,965
price go up or at least make the price stay stable because if people don't see a real utility in the

302
00:24:17,965 --> 00:24:23,965
run then they might just leave the network and go and get involved in something else so yeah it's

303
00:24:23,965 --> 00:24:29,385
there's more to it than just having it sat on a balance sheet and doing nothing you know it's about

304
00:24:29,385 --> 00:24:36,445
the real network it's about people that have shops or or services for sale to actually say

305
00:24:36,445 --> 00:24:42,925
i will accept bitcoin for this thing and it might mean that you know that they're able to accept

306
00:24:42,925 --> 00:24:46,765
international transactions without having to deal with currency exchange.

307
00:24:47,165 --> 00:24:53,265
It may mean that they can have automatic payment splits that pay more than one

308
00:24:53,265 --> 00:24:57,065
producer of the product that they're selling automatically at the same time.

309
00:24:58,105 --> 00:25:03,505
So yeah, it's more about the technology itself than the kind of the trading

310
00:25:03,505 --> 00:25:06,505
instrument of Bitcoin or the Bitcoin treasury companies.

311
00:25:07,805 --> 00:25:08,825
Yeah, exactly, mate.

312
00:25:08,825 --> 00:25:14,925
people are getting trapped into this idea well it's number go up isn't it like you said at the

313
00:25:14,925 --> 00:25:23,945
beginning it's it does that does bring people in uh but um yeah come for the number go up

314
00:25:23,945 --> 00:25:28,945
state the day trade mnav i mean like that's what i'm saying at the moment like you know this is

315
00:25:28,945 --> 00:25:34,905
this is not bitcoin it's not bitcoin because you don't hold it and it's not bitcoin it's not the

316
00:25:34,905 --> 00:25:40,585
ethos of Bitcoin either. You know, this idea of staying humble and stacking sats, this idea of

317
00:25:40,585 --> 00:25:47,325
lowering your time preference. And I still get a lot of pushback whenever I bring up these, you

318
00:25:47,325 --> 00:25:53,905
know, the idea here that, you know, the Bitcoin treasury bag holders are going to end up

319
00:25:54,765 --> 00:25:59,245
getting wrecked, quite, quite frankly. It's the only way I see this happening.

320
00:25:59,665 --> 00:26:04,625
And I mentioned earlier another, I just want to make sure people get all the information. So

321
00:26:04,625 --> 00:26:12,685
they heard me say PIPE deal. So PIPE investing, it's P-I-P-E, and that is an acronym for those

322
00:26:12,685 --> 00:26:17,925
that weren't aware. It stands for Private Investment in Public Equity. And this is the

323
00:26:17,925 --> 00:26:24,045
exact definition. This financial arrangement involves private investors purchasing a company's

324
00:26:24,045 --> 00:26:32,065
publicly traded stock, typically at a discount to the market price. So the PIPE investors,

325
00:26:32,065 --> 00:26:40,865
this is how it works they all get lined up by a venture capital firm for example UTXO management

326
00:26:40,865 --> 00:26:47,145
that have been very much boasting about getting the pipe deals that they've got in and there's

327
00:26:47,145 --> 00:26:52,885
even been uh it's gone around twitter there's lists now that are being leaked I don't know to

328
00:26:52,885 --> 00:27:01,005
who or why or how of names of the people and I don't certainly agree with uh you know releasing

329
00:27:01,005 --> 00:27:04,685
people's names and their private investments and whatever else.

330
00:27:05,445 --> 00:27:06,545
Here we are. It's happened.

331
00:27:07,645 --> 00:27:12,765
So you get to see the amount of shares that people get before you.

332
00:27:15,285 --> 00:27:17,545
Private investment in public equity.

333
00:27:18,145 --> 00:27:23,365
They got a shot at the shares well before you got a shot at the shares.

334
00:27:23,365 --> 00:27:25,685
And typically, they would have a lockup period.

335
00:27:26,185 --> 00:27:30,325
And that could range anywhere from a few months to one and a half years

336
00:27:30,325 --> 00:27:31,005
or maybe longer.

337
00:27:31,745 --> 00:27:35,025
Now, what's happening, it seems, in this case,

338
00:27:35,185 --> 00:27:37,305
because we are in a smash and grab era,

339
00:27:37,445 --> 00:27:38,985
as you've already explained,

340
00:27:39,625 --> 00:27:43,545
these lock-up periods are pretty tight.

341
00:27:44,545 --> 00:27:46,905
So they get the shares on board,

342
00:27:47,845 --> 00:27:49,505
the venture capitalists especially,

343
00:27:49,505 --> 00:27:55,205
and then they ramp the price up through the hype

344
00:27:55,205 --> 00:27:56,845
because they own the headlines,

345
00:27:57,985 --> 00:27:59,325
they own the conferences,

346
00:27:59,325 --> 00:28:07,905
they can get on the Twitter spaces and do whatever else and get everybody revved up and create this hype around it into retail.

347
00:28:08,545 --> 00:28:27,665
And it's a real sad, sorry case that at the moment, a lot of Bitcoiners are using what they feel is trapped capital to try and jump on this bandwagon just to get something out of it.

348
00:28:27,665 --> 00:28:30,025
And it's a real shame.

349
00:28:30,725 --> 00:28:36,265
I just want to point out, look, trapped capital is better than wrecked capital.

350
00:28:36,665 --> 00:28:41,325
And you've got to keep that up front of mind when you're looking at these things.

351
00:28:41,885 --> 00:28:57,465
So I've been digging around, Simon, because there's a lot of things in the S1 filings or in the UK, I think it'd be called something document is slipping my mind.

352
00:28:57,465 --> 00:29:00,485
admissions document in the UK.

353
00:29:01,025 --> 00:29:03,685
I don't know what they'd be called in France, Germany, Holland,

354
00:29:03,685 --> 00:29:05,765
but these things are popping up all over the place.

355
00:29:06,305 --> 00:29:07,865
You can read these documents.

356
00:29:08,385 --> 00:29:13,205
As a could-be or would-be investor, please read these documents,

357
00:29:13,405 --> 00:29:13,945
pull them up.

358
00:29:14,045 --> 00:29:16,685
They'll be listed somewhere on the website of this company

359
00:29:16,685 --> 00:29:18,965
and just search a few keywords.

360
00:29:19,625 --> 00:29:21,765
Search Bitcoin, for example.

361
00:29:22,425 --> 00:29:24,705
Now, if you go and do this on,

362
00:29:24,845 --> 00:29:26,725
I'm not going to name any companies here outright.

363
00:29:26,725 --> 00:29:28,325
People can go and do that for themselves.

364
00:29:28,905 --> 00:29:31,765
If you go and do this on a few S1 forms or admissions documents,

365
00:29:32,705 --> 00:29:35,085
search the word Bitcoin, see how many times that comes up.

366
00:29:35,705 --> 00:29:38,285
On one particular document, I found it seven times.

367
00:29:39,145 --> 00:29:46,045
And in no case was the word treasury written directly after Bitcoin,

368
00:29:46,585 --> 00:29:49,885
except for one company that I checked.

369
00:29:50,745 --> 00:29:55,105
So that company, therefore, can literally call themselves a Bitcoin treasury company.

370
00:29:55,105 --> 00:29:59,545
The other ones I've been looking at, they don't call themselves a Bitcoin treasury company.

371
00:29:59,665 --> 00:30:02,825
They call themselves a digital asset treasury.

372
00:30:05,865 --> 00:30:08,285
OK, you've already made a face there.

373
00:30:08,485 --> 00:30:09,485
I was hoping you would.

374
00:30:10,145 --> 00:30:11,585
What does that mean to you?

375
00:30:11,825 --> 00:30:17,605
And then I'll give you the definition of glossary of terms that I found in some of these things.

376
00:30:18,085 --> 00:30:19,945
Does that mean they're not really buying Bitcoin?

377
00:30:20,065 --> 00:30:21,545
They're buying some other kind of digital asset?

378
00:30:21,545 --> 00:30:32,945
it well it's it's legalese okay it's legalese they've left the door wide open because

379
00:30:32,945 --> 00:30:41,345
as a as of up till now they are all of the companies from from what i can tell they're being

380
00:30:41,345 --> 00:30:47,945
transparent in air quotes as transparent as they as they're happy to be and showing the amount and

381
00:30:47,945 --> 00:30:49,825
announcing the amount of Bitcoin on the balance sheet.

382
00:30:50,165 --> 00:30:54,685
But no one's digging any further into seeing if there is anything else.

383
00:30:56,525 --> 00:31:00,925
So I'm just going to read from one of the filings.

384
00:31:03,065 --> 00:31:04,645
Types of digital assets.

385
00:31:05,305 --> 00:31:09,325
Cryptocurrencies includes major coins like Bitcoin and Ethereum.

386
00:31:10,405 --> 00:31:21,818
Stable coins pegged to traditional currencies often providing stability and liquidity and tokens which may include utility tokens or security tokens relevant to specific projects

387
00:31:21,818 --> 00:31:31,278
this is in the listing now if i was to pull up a ceo about this and the same kind of thing this

388
00:31:31,278 --> 00:31:39,278
jargon is being used across many documents it's like it's like the template and this to me is

389
00:31:39,278 --> 00:31:41,758
a, well, it's a backdoor.

390
00:31:42,618 --> 00:31:47,858
That's a tall backdoor, yeah, because whoever's involved can create their own cryptocurrency.

391
00:31:48,898 --> 00:31:53,018
And within that definition, they can sell it to that company and cash out.

392
00:31:54,638 --> 00:32:02,718
And yeah, I mean, okay, but they might go and buy Bitcoin to the value of the capital

393
00:32:02,718 --> 00:32:03,398
that's gone in.

394
00:32:03,578 --> 00:32:08,378
But if they're leveraging, then they could then go and buy a lot of other things as well

395
00:32:08,378 --> 00:32:09,778
and not state that.

396
00:32:11,038 --> 00:32:14,138
Yeah, I mean, it kind of reminds me of a company

397
00:32:14,138 --> 00:32:15,518
that I don't want to say the name of

398
00:32:15,518 --> 00:32:19,898
that was holding Bitcoin for their customers.

399
00:32:21,498 --> 00:32:24,358
And there was a bit of an investigation went on.

400
00:32:24,458 --> 00:32:26,578
It turns out they were actually holding audio tokens,

401
00:32:26,938 --> 00:32:32,198
which was an alt currency of the kind of 2021 boom.

402
00:32:33,478 --> 00:32:34,838
But of course, they were illiquid.

403
00:32:35,378 --> 00:32:37,558
And I think there was some quirk

404
00:32:37,558 --> 00:32:40,578
in the terms of conditions of that, you know,

405
00:32:40,638 --> 00:32:43,858
that holding that they were able to hold other digital assets.

406
00:32:44,578 --> 00:32:46,718
And I don't know what deal was done behind the scenes

407
00:32:46,718 --> 00:32:49,538
for them to buy that big tranche of audio tokens

408
00:32:49,538 --> 00:32:50,538
rather than Bitcoin.

409
00:32:50,998 --> 00:32:52,618
But the customers thought they were holding Bitcoin

410
00:32:52,618 --> 00:32:53,398
on their behalf.

411
00:32:53,758 --> 00:32:56,198
So, you know, that company's still operating.

412
00:32:56,378 --> 00:32:56,958
Who knows them?

413
00:32:57,138 --> 00:32:58,478
They've still got their money invested in there,

414
00:32:58,538 --> 00:33:01,778
but I don't want to name names in public.

415
00:33:02,058 --> 00:33:04,078
But yeah, I mean, that's a huge flaw.

416
00:33:04,078 --> 00:33:09,498
That is a backdoor whereby people can have their money effectively stolen from them.

417
00:33:10,358 --> 00:33:19,638
If any of these companies decide to do something underhand, but may still be perfectly within the terms and conditions of the prospectus that they've offered there.

418
00:33:20,278 --> 00:33:24,358
And I think a lot of people that have invested in this stuff are Bitcoiners.

419
00:33:24,978 --> 00:33:34,058
And I very much doubt that they were aware that this little clause is in there, because I don't think they would have bought the stock if they knew that it was on the table.

420
00:33:34,078 --> 00:33:42,138
just in case at some stage, if we need to pivot to Ethereum or other digital currencies in air

421
00:33:42,138 --> 00:33:47,978
quotes, in order to save the company or build our balance sheet or diversify or whatever.

422
00:33:47,978 --> 00:33:53,718
And there's another form of attack here. It could easily be, let's say there's a salty,

423
00:33:53,718 --> 00:33:55,638
salty

424
00:33:55,638 --> 00:33:57,298
Ethereum

425
00:33:57,298 --> 00:33:58,778
big blocker

426
00:33:58,778 --> 00:34:00,398
whatever dude

427
00:34:00,398 --> 00:34:01,418
sitting there

428
00:34:01,418 --> 00:34:03,578
on a ton of cash

429
00:34:03,578 --> 00:34:04,478
because they might be

430
00:34:04,478 --> 00:34:05,378
part of a foundation

431
00:34:05,378 --> 00:34:06,158
or they might have

432
00:34:06,158 --> 00:34:07,278
had their own exit

433
00:34:07,278 --> 00:34:08,398
on their own liquidity

434
00:34:08,398 --> 00:34:09,858
or some token

435
00:34:09,858 --> 00:34:10,318
or whatever

436
00:34:10,318 --> 00:34:12,738
they could just sit there

437
00:34:12,738 --> 00:34:13,838
and buy a shit ton

438
00:34:13,838 --> 00:34:15,058
of these shares

439
00:34:15,058 --> 00:34:17,518
over the course of time

440
00:34:17,518 --> 00:34:19,998
and launch basically

441
00:34:19,998 --> 00:34:20,598
what could be

442
00:34:20,598 --> 00:34:22,098
a 51% attack

443
00:34:22,098 --> 00:34:26,018
on the company or to at least gain a board seat.

444
00:34:26,238 --> 00:34:27,778
And as soon as they gain a board seat,

445
00:34:27,838 --> 00:34:31,518
then they could start pushing to start diversifying

446
00:34:31,518 --> 00:34:33,418
into other currencies as well.

447
00:34:33,978 --> 00:34:35,758
So there's, I mean, they're open,

448
00:34:36,038 --> 00:34:39,618
not only is it a backdoor, but it's also an attack vector.

449
00:34:41,938 --> 00:34:44,178
Yeah, if they really wanted to be malicious about that,

450
00:34:44,178 --> 00:34:47,738
they could argue that the company has a responsibility

451
00:34:47,738 --> 00:34:50,378
to shareholders to diversify out that one asset

452
00:34:50,378 --> 00:34:51,698
into other assets.

453
00:34:51,698 --> 00:34:56,178
and they could threaten to sue them if the Bitcoin price goes down

454
00:34:56,178 --> 00:34:58,578
and they haven't diversified.

455
00:34:59,338 --> 00:35:02,718
It could be quite, yeah, that could be a weird situation.

456
00:35:03,238 --> 00:35:06,158
I mean, it's kind of like it goes down to the core of what Bitcoin is.

457
00:35:06,298 --> 00:35:09,398
You know, when you rely upon somebody else to look after your money for you,

458
00:35:09,598 --> 00:35:10,818
it's a trust relationship.

459
00:35:11,378 --> 00:35:13,358
And history has shown that, you know,

460
00:35:13,398 --> 00:35:17,838
people that do look after other people's money are not always the best people,

461
00:35:18,078 --> 00:35:21,278
you know, and the nature of it, having all that money there.

462
00:35:21,698 --> 00:35:26,838
sometimes they might, you know, borrow a bit with the best of intentions to give it back and go and gamble with it.

463
00:35:26,918 --> 00:35:31,158
And then maybe they don't win. Maybe they lose. And so they borrow a bit more.

464
00:35:31,478 --> 00:35:38,178
And, you know, these kind of situations have happened throughout history where people have lost their money through bad custodianship.

465
00:35:38,178 --> 00:35:44,798
So it's always a risk. You know, if you are relying upon custodians to look after your money for you, then there is a risk there.

466
00:35:45,738 --> 00:35:50,518
And you can do due diligence on the people involved. You can try and look up the history and see what kind of people they are.

467
00:35:50,518 --> 00:35:55,918
that by help but you're always risking that the whole point of bitcoin is you can hold your money

468
00:35:55,918 --> 00:36:01,858
securely in a way that you don't have to rely upon a third party you know you've got that call

469
00:36:01,858 --> 00:36:09,038
holding um you've got it in a cryptographically secure wallet um which doesn't rely upon a

470
00:36:09,038 --> 00:36:16,738
custodian so the the core of bitcoin is kind of antithetical to all of these new structures that

471
00:36:16,738 --> 00:36:21,738
are being created you know it is a self-custody asset it's something that you have total control

472
00:36:21,738 --> 00:36:26,518
over and you have responsibility for you know if you're careless with your keys then you can lose

473
00:36:26,518 --> 00:36:33,598
it that's that's the reality but it's 100 your responsibility so yeah um it's interesting you

474
00:36:33,598 --> 00:36:37,118
picked up on those flaws in the documents there because classically these kind of investment

475
00:36:37,118 --> 00:36:41,318
documents are usually very long and very wordy and very boring because they don't want you to

476
00:36:41,318 --> 00:36:45,758
read all the way through you've done a word search and go through three important parts and

477
00:36:45,758 --> 00:36:49,858
figured out where the floor is, which is quite nice that you've done that. You're able to share

478
00:36:49,858 --> 00:36:54,898
that with your audience because that is a huge flaw. You saw my reaction there when you said

479
00:36:54,898 --> 00:36:59,538
digital assets. It's like, ah, that means not necessarily Bitcoin then. And that's where the

480
00:36:59,538 --> 00:37:04,838
problems can come because they can literally go on to pump.fund, create their own Solana-based

481
00:37:04,838 --> 00:37:12,298
coin within a few hours, probably even less than that. And they can, as the kind of custodian of

482
00:37:12,298 --> 00:37:16,418
people's money they could choose to buy that instead of bitcoin but still remain within the

483
00:37:16,418 --> 00:37:22,098
terms of the agreement that they've set out at the beginning so legally they're they're in the

484
00:37:22,098 --> 00:37:27,278
safe space of course there's no exit equity for that token that they've created and sold to the

485
00:37:27,278 --> 00:37:32,758
company so you know they could even do it at hand's length with somebody they they in theory

486
00:37:32,758 --> 00:37:37,718
don't really know but quietly in the background they do know and that person has taken all the

487
00:37:37,718 --> 00:37:43,038
money and um you know there is no market for that token so ultimately the money is lost you know

488
00:37:43,038 --> 00:37:48,058
it's gone out the back door exactly like you say it's a backdoor in the system it's um it's very

489
00:37:48,058 --> 00:37:52,358
concerning for and for anybody that are holding any of these it's definitely worth checking this

490
00:37:52,358 --> 00:37:58,338
out and then asking yourself the question have you been misled or has there been misrepresentation

491
00:37:58,338 --> 00:38:06,258
because whenever you do come up against uh like the the podcast interviews different ceos have

492
00:38:06,258 --> 00:38:12,698
gone on different interviews or had the conferences or even in written communications, Twitter posts

493
00:38:12,698 --> 00:38:18,998
or threads or whatever. It's always that the language and the communication is always Bitcoin

494
00:38:18,998 --> 00:38:25,038
treasury company. We are a Bitcoin treasury company and blah, blah, blah. Or even like the

495
00:38:25,038 --> 00:38:30,598
title of a panel or the title of a podcast or the title of a spaces is this is always the messaging.

496
00:38:30,598 --> 00:38:49,278
It's never digital asset treasury company. So that's something I'm sure they'll be fully able to bat away any complaints should it come, because I'm sure the legalese is, you know, very tightly in their favor here.

497
00:38:49,278 --> 00:38:57,938
But if you've bought these thinking they're just purely a Bitcoin treasury play, you should be asking some questions of the CEO, for sure.

498
00:38:58,418 --> 00:39:05,038
And another thing I've noticed is very rarely, if at all, do you get any kind of update?

499
00:39:05,098 --> 00:39:12,278
You always get an update on the amount of Bitcoin we've bought, the amount of new shares we've issued, the amount of new leverage we've entered into.

500
00:39:12,278 --> 00:39:17,898
but I mean it's different in the case of microstrategy because they're a much bigger

501
00:39:17,898 --> 00:39:23,738
company and they have a lot broader kind of shareholders and they have their earnings calls

502
00:39:23,738 --> 00:39:30,378
and whatever else but for the smaller ones rarely do you see any update on the the operating business

503
00:39:30,378 --> 00:39:37,558
that apparently exists underneath you know some of them claim to be already a business that has

504
00:39:37,558 --> 00:39:45,258
xyz service good or product um you get no kind of right forward-looking statements or anything like

505
00:39:45,258 --> 00:39:52,258
that no talk about you know what's happened market conditions market dynamics future looking

506
00:39:52,258 --> 00:40:00,038
statements it's just purely bitcoin treasury we bought this much bitcoin trust me bro and it's

507
00:40:00,038 --> 00:40:07,078
like oh my god stop this this has to end yeah from what you're saying it sounds like it's not

508
00:40:07,078 --> 00:40:13,898
going to end well it's kind of uh yeah that i mean it's a bait and switch scenario isn't it

509
00:40:13,898 --> 00:40:17,558
they're out there with the headlines saying bitcoin treasury and then when you go and read

510
00:40:17,558 --> 00:40:24,298
the small print it's not necessarily bitcoin and there's no indication as to exactly how much of the

511
00:40:24,298 --> 00:40:32,078
assets they own are bitcoin or they are something else and it's only if they're ever forced to sell

512
00:40:32,078 --> 00:40:36,058
that they ever get exposed as having not put all the money in the Bitcoin.

513
00:40:36,938 --> 00:40:38,938
So it's like a lot of these things,

514
00:40:38,938 --> 00:40:41,778
as long as everyone's happy and it all goes rolling forward,

515
00:40:42,398 --> 00:40:43,918
no one's ever going to get called out on it.

516
00:40:44,018 --> 00:40:47,118
But if the whole thing falls apart and everyone's forced to unwind,

517
00:40:47,898 --> 00:40:48,378
you find out.

518
00:40:48,578 --> 00:40:50,138
What is Warren Buffett says?

519
00:40:50,258 --> 00:40:52,578
When the tide goes out, you find out who's been swimming naked.

520
00:40:53,538 --> 00:40:57,278
So, you know, we've seen this with Grayscale.

521
00:40:57,438 --> 00:41:00,198
In the last cycle, Grayscale was running at a 20% premium

522
00:41:00,198 --> 00:41:02,818
to their asset value.

523
00:41:03,238 --> 00:41:05,178
And there was some kind of arbitrage that people were doing

524
00:41:05,178 --> 00:41:07,778
where they were creating units of Grayscale.

525
00:41:08,038 --> 00:41:10,598
They were buying Bitcoin and they were earning that 20%.

526
00:41:10,598 --> 00:41:15,578
And then at some point, the premium eroded

527
00:41:15,578 --> 00:41:18,398
and it turned into a negative 20%.

528
00:41:18,398 --> 00:41:19,698
It was like a 20% discount.

529
00:41:20,038 --> 00:41:22,518
The point at which that flipped basically marked the top

530
00:41:22,518 --> 00:41:23,558
of the Bitcoin cycle.

531
00:41:24,238 --> 00:41:25,158
That was the end.

532
00:41:25,158 --> 00:41:29,998
It was whatever kind of liquidity was funding that arbitrage

533
00:41:29,998 --> 00:41:32,178
dried up and

534
00:41:32,178 --> 00:41:34,098
everyone started to pull their horns

535
00:41:34,098 --> 00:41:35,978
in because they weren't making free money anymore.

536
00:41:36,718 --> 00:41:37,898
So that potentially is what

537
00:41:37,898 --> 00:41:39,938
we need to watch for in this

538
00:41:39,971 --> 00:41:47,551
cycle. I know the micro strategy price is about half of its all time high. You know, it's kind of

539
00:41:47,551 --> 00:41:54,131
about half what it was back in November last year. And the Bitcoin price is a little bit higher than

540
00:41:54,131 --> 00:42:01,371
it was back then. So, you know, it's not been a great value investment for the last year.

541
00:42:01,371 --> 00:42:10,431
and yeah it's it's going to be um maybe like trading a bit closer to its asset value now

542
00:42:10,431 --> 00:42:15,811
so maybe that's something i should review and and see if it has actually crossed over and

543
00:42:15,811 --> 00:42:20,331
turned into a discount the asset value because that's going to be a very bearish signal for the

544
00:42:20,331 --> 00:42:25,291
market if that's the case it's it's the way things tend to work like this is it's all about

545
00:42:25,291 --> 00:42:30,871
supply and demand when you've only got one bitcoin treasury company there's a shortage of supply and

546
00:42:30,871 --> 00:42:33,431
a lot of demand and everyone's buying that one.

547
00:42:33,511 --> 00:42:37,131
So it trades at a massive premium when you've got 500 Bitcoin treasury

548
00:42:37,131 --> 00:42:39,371
companies all trying to flood the market at the same time,

549
00:42:39,371 --> 00:42:41,211
because they've seen the premium and they've all rushed in,

550
00:42:41,751 --> 00:42:43,791
you end up with an excessive supply over demand.

551
00:42:44,151 --> 00:42:45,591
They will trade at a discount.

552
00:42:46,811 --> 00:42:49,711
The incentive then for them is to actually sell their Bitcoin and start

553
00:42:49,711 --> 00:42:51,911
buying back their shares, you know, if they actually do that.

554
00:42:51,991 --> 00:42:54,131
But ultimately it shows that, you know,

555
00:42:54,131 --> 00:42:57,631
there's a loss of liquidity in the market and that tends to be when prices

556
00:42:57,631 --> 00:43:00,171
start coming down rather than staying up.

557
00:43:00,171 --> 00:43:04,991
So, you know, I'm not arguing that anyone should try and trade the Bitcoin cycle in the long run.

558
00:43:05,051 --> 00:43:09,251
The best thing is always just to huddle your own self-custody Bitcoin in your own wallet.

559
00:43:10,831 --> 00:43:15,671
But, yeah, it looks like, you know, we are quite late in the cycle now.

560
00:43:15,771 --> 00:43:17,171
We're following a four-year cycle.

561
00:43:17,531 --> 00:43:21,891
You know, we're less than a month away from where it peaked four years ago.

562
00:43:22,251 --> 00:43:28,311
So it has to be asked, you know, is this really the point at which all this is going to start unwinding?

563
00:43:28,311 --> 00:43:33,291
and yeah, it might not be far from it,

564
00:43:33,531 --> 00:43:36,611
but equally it might go on for another six months or a year.

565
00:43:36,791 --> 00:43:37,551
We don't know for sure.

566
00:43:37,711 --> 00:43:39,451
So we can't predict the future with any certainty.

567
00:43:40,171 --> 00:43:41,031
And I can't help,

568
00:43:41,251 --> 00:43:45,411
I can't ever get a solid straight answer to,

569
00:43:45,771 --> 00:43:47,311
you know, let's just take it.

570
00:43:47,691 --> 00:43:49,351
XYZ company, not MicroStrategy,

571
00:43:49,791 --> 00:43:52,031
XYZ company that's a Bitcoin treasury company

572
00:43:52,031 --> 00:43:55,751
that has announced itself in the last six to nine months,

573
00:43:55,851 --> 00:43:56,071
whatever.

574
00:43:56,071 --> 00:44:02,051
what's the play like what's the what are you going to be doing in 10 years time you're going

575
00:44:02,051 --> 00:44:07,031
to have all this bitcoin on your balance sheet what's the good or service or product that you're

576
00:44:07,031 --> 00:44:11,371
going to be putting into the market how long can this because we've been again the narrative of

577
00:44:11,371 --> 00:44:19,551
the uh the flywheel right the uh the perpetual motion flywheel where you just keep offering uh

578
00:44:19,551 --> 00:44:24,971
printing shares into the market and using that to buy the bitcoin and then you do it again in

579
00:44:24,971 --> 00:44:28,931
six weeks and then again in six weeks and everybody's just great and happy and we're

580
00:44:28,931 --> 00:44:33,451
making money and we're going to have like eternal riches and big titty bitches and driving around

581
00:44:33,451 --> 00:44:39,031
in orange lambos like it's what are you going to be doing in 10 years where is that bitcoin

582
00:44:39,031 --> 00:44:45,271
going to be where is it going to be held like and what happens if you just fold the company one day

583
00:44:45,271 --> 00:44:51,271
yeah i mean you're exactly right you know any of these kind of easy money or free money scenarios

584
00:44:51,271 --> 00:44:52,191
is they don't last.

585
00:44:52,351 --> 00:44:53,071
You know, they do exist.

586
00:44:53,351 --> 00:44:56,571
And for a period of time, people, you know, make good money out of it.

587
00:44:56,631 --> 00:44:58,931
But there's always somebody losing somewhere, you know,

588
00:44:58,931 --> 00:45:00,691
because they're not actually creating any real value.

589
00:45:00,911 --> 00:45:01,711
You know, they're not producing.

590
00:45:02,631 --> 00:45:05,091
Some of the Bitcoin treasury companies might have real businesses.

591
00:45:05,371 --> 00:45:09,031
And there may be a real argument for having Bitcoin as the asset

592
00:45:09,031 --> 00:45:11,111
on their balance sheet rather than cash.

593
00:45:11,791 --> 00:45:14,351
And, yeah, I mean, if you have a company and you want to keep Bitcoin

594
00:45:14,351 --> 00:45:16,651
on your balance sheet, then great.

595
00:45:16,931 --> 00:45:18,151
You know, that's a good way to do it.

596
00:45:18,151 --> 00:45:23,931
you're probably going to have a more secure form of reserve for your company over the long run.

597
00:45:24,551 --> 00:45:31,111
But if you're doing it just so you can go afloat on the stock market and get an increase in your share price

598
00:45:31,111 --> 00:45:35,151
and then sell those share prices to unsuspecting retail investors,

599
00:45:35,411 --> 00:45:38,311
that's probably not the best way to carry on.

600
00:45:38,391 --> 00:45:40,451
And you're probably just riding a wave of liquidity.

601
00:45:40,751 --> 00:45:43,491
And you've got to ask the question, if you start out doing that now,

602
00:45:43,631 --> 00:45:46,371
is the premium still going to be there by the time you get to the market?

603
00:45:46,371 --> 00:45:48,391
because it might actually have turned negative by then

604
00:45:48,391 --> 00:45:50,631
and you might end up looking a bit silly

605
00:45:50,631 --> 00:45:52,371
if you've missed that wave of liquidity.

606
00:45:53,311 --> 00:45:56,071
But yeah, it's an interesting phenomena.

607
00:45:56,311 --> 00:45:57,791
I think it's, like we said before,

608
00:45:57,871 --> 00:45:59,391
you and I have got experience in markets

609
00:45:59,391 --> 00:46:01,291
and we've seen how these things tend to pan out.

610
00:46:01,871 --> 00:46:03,911
If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

611
00:46:03,911 --> 00:46:06,811
You know, that's the kind of scenario that we're in here.

612
00:46:08,111 --> 00:46:11,451
People that bought MicroStrategy during the bear market,

613
00:46:11,571 --> 00:46:13,371
when it was running at a 50% discount,

614
00:46:14,111 --> 00:46:15,931
they could have made a lot of money, you know,

615
00:46:15,931 --> 00:46:18,671
because they were making that contrarian trade.

616
00:46:19,251 --> 00:46:22,271
But if they were buying in November last year

617
00:46:22,271 --> 00:46:25,131
when Trump got elected and the price went to the moon,

618
00:46:25,871 --> 00:46:28,391
then they're probably feeling a bit sore now

619
00:46:28,391 --> 00:46:31,231
because the Bitcoin price has gone up from where it was back then,

620
00:46:31,231 --> 00:46:34,231
but they've lost half their money in the micro-estrategy investment.

621
00:46:34,551 --> 00:46:37,251
So that's where it gets a bit more painful,

622
00:46:37,511 --> 00:46:39,751
because they're overpaid, basically.

623
00:46:39,991 --> 00:46:42,591
They paid for the management process

624
00:46:42,591 --> 00:46:44,151
that micro-estrategy were offering,

625
00:46:44,151 --> 00:46:47,751
and they paid for the market premium that was being offered,

626
00:46:47,951 --> 00:46:50,511
you know, that kind of imbalance of supply and demand,

627
00:46:50,631 --> 00:46:52,951
which over time is correcting itself

628
00:46:52,951 --> 00:46:55,131
by more Bitcoin treasuries coming onto the market

629
00:46:55,131 --> 00:46:57,291
and that the prices, the premiums come down.

630
00:46:58,251 --> 00:47:02,071
So yeah, we're in, we're potentially in the kind of,

631
00:47:02,131 --> 00:47:05,271
the less good part of that wave of liquidity

632
00:47:05,271 --> 00:47:07,071
where it slowly drains away

633
00:47:07,071 --> 00:47:09,171
and people are left holding the baby.

634
00:47:09,991 --> 00:47:11,831
So we've, I think we can put a pin now

635
00:47:11,831 --> 00:47:13,231
in Bitcoin treasury companies.

636
00:47:13,231 --> 00:47:15,911
I hope that's been helpful for people listening.

637
00:47:17,631 --> 00:47:18,231
Loans.

638
00:47:19,631 --> 00:47:24,931
Bitcoin loans is the other thing that's going on, like hand in hand.

639
00:47:25,131 --> 00:47:29,171
This is a tandem attack almost.

640
00:47:29,991 --> 00:47:31,991
It's the financialization of Bitcoin, isn't it?

641
00:47:32,051 --> 00:47:36,031
You know, each cycle we see new kind of things come about.

642
00:47:36,311 --> 00:47:38,411
And Bitcoin Treasury has been one that we've seen this cycle.

643
00:47:38,411 --> 00:47:43,591
but also lending against Bitcoin has been made widely more accessible.

644
00:47:44,651 --> 00:47:45,871
Loads more people are doing it.

645
00:47:46,051 --> 00:47:47,471
Even Jack Mallers now,

646
00:47:47,711 --> 00:47:51,011
I think a lot of other companies that we saw as being grassroots Bitcoin

647
00:47:51,011 --> 00:47:54,551
companies that were offering lightning services and things like that

648
00:47:54,551 --> 00:47:57,191
have started to offer loans against Bitcoin.

649
00:47:57,371 --> 00:47:58,671
And I don't know if it's their backers,

650
00:47:58,791 --> 00:48:01,371
their VCs that are pushing them to try and make some money somehow.

651
00:48:01,371 --> 00:48:03,531
And this is a way of doing it.

652
00:48:03,651 --> 00:48:06,971
But yeah, it kind of goes hand in hand with the narrative,

653
00:48:06,971 --> 00:48:11,431
which unfortunately again comes from Michael Saylor and saying,

654
00:48:11,731 --> 00:48:16,191
don't ever sell your Bitcoin. That's the mantra. Never sell your Bitcoin.

655
00:48:17,451 --> 00:48:21,771
So if you are continuing to invest in Bitcoin and you know,

656
00:48:21,791 --> 00:48:26,431
you need to access your savings for something that you've been saving up for

657
00:48:26,431 --> 00:48:31,671
and you don't actually sell your Bitcoin, then what do you do? Oh, guess what?

658
00:48:31,771 --> 00:48:34,631
There's a whole range of companies offering leverage against your Bitcoin.

659
00:48:34,631 --> 00:48:46,011
But if you do choose to lever your Bitcoin, you are having to post collateral with that company that's given you the loan, which means you're giving up the ownership of that bit of Bitcoin.

660
00:48:47,551 --> 00:48:54,031
And that does mean, you know, de facto, you've got a stop loss kind of price.

661
00:48:54,411 --> 00:49:03,571
So if they're asking you to put up 25 percent collateral against the loan, then if the Bitcoin price goes down by 25 percent, then you're going to get either closed out.

662
00:49:03,571 --> 00:49:10,911
They're either going to sell your Bitcoin and keep the money, which pays for the loss that you've made, or they're going to ask you for more capital.

663
00:49:13,191 --> 00:49:19,811
Now, this becomes a problem if it drops by 25 percent, you post more collateral, and then it drops by another 25 percent.

664
00:49:20,531 --> 00:49:23,911
You're going to slowly have your Bitcoin take it away from you.

665
00:49:24,951 --> 00:49:30,991
And this is where you and I really connected, I think, at that event in Nostro, where we said we know what people are like in the financial markets.

666
00:49:30,991 --> 00:49:35,471
we know if we see a big buildup of leverage like this where lots of people are getting

667
00:49:35,471 --> 00:49:41,191
conned with a dubious narrative of you know getting to leveraging your bitcoin where previously it

668
00:49:41,191 --> 00:49:46,131
was just keep it in your self-custody wallet then we might suspect that at some point there's going

669
00:49:46,131 --> 00:49:51,031
to be a liquidity event maybe even it's only going to last 10 minutes but you might see the price of

670
00:49:51,031 --> 00:49:57,391
bitcoin drop by 90 percent and then go straight back up again now most people don't like to hear

671
00:49:57,391 --> 00:50:02,751
that you know this is not a way to make yourself popular at a bitcoin dinner party saying things

672
00:50:02,751 --> 00:50:07,811
like this i know because i've done it but it's it's kind of it's a reality of what could happen

673
00:50:07,811 --> 00:50:13,071
you know and i'm not saying it will happen i i again i can't predict the future but if people

674
00:50:13,071 --> 00:50:17,791
like larry fink or michael saylor or anyone else that they're associated with wanted to capture

675
00:50:17,791 --> 00:50:23,191
the grassroots bitcoin this is exactly how they would do it they would put out narrative never

676
00:50:23,191 --> 00:50:27,351
sell your bitcoin they would provide a lot of liquidity to a lot of bitcoin companies so

677
00:50:27,351 --> 00:50:30,991
that they could enable easy leverage at relatively low interest rates.

678
00:50:31,251 --> 00:50:35,311
And they would get people's Bitcoin effectively onto their balance sheet.

679
00:50:35,771 --> 00:50:39,891
And then at some point, they would figure out the time when the market has least liquidity.

680
00:50:40,711 --> 00:50:46,951
And they would put a big sell order at any price or multiple exchanges at the same time.

681
00:50:47,611 --> 00:50:51,351
Nobody would have time to get money on to buy Bitcoin at those stupidly low prices.

682
00:50:51,391 --> 00:50:54,771
And it would literally dip down, flash crash, straight back up again.

683
00:50:55,651 --> 00:50:56,371
And guess what?

684
00:50:56,371 --> 00:51:01,051
all of the people that had collateralized Bitcoin would have lost it because it's gone through that

685
00:51:01,051 --> 00:51:05,111
price. It doesn't matter how long it stays down. Therefore, once it's at that price, you're out,

686
00:51:05,531 --> 00:51:11,511
you know, you're done according to your contract. So, yeah, it's a way of capturing people's Bitcoin.

687
00:51:12,851 --> 00:51:18,611
And it's not like we're immune to conspiracy theories in the Bitcoin space. So it's the kind

688
00:51:18,611 --> 00:51:23,451
of thing that Bitcoiners should be thinking about. You know, we know that they would like to have our

689
00:51:23,451 --> 00:51:28,211
Bitcoin. We know that if there's a way that they can get it, then they'll probably do it.

690
00:51:28,931 --> 00:51:35,431
And this is a way that they could get it. So, you know, if you say that two parts of that theory,

691
00:51:35,691 --> 00:51:39,151
two parts of three of that conspiracy theory are already in place where they create a narrative,

692
00:51:39,331 --> 00:51:44,671
say, don't sell your Bitcoin. They've offered a lot of easy leverage to capture people's Bitcoin.

693
00:51:45,291 --> 00:51:50,631
The only final part is a big dip in the Bitcoin price. I hope it doesn't happen. I don't want to

694
00:51:50,631 --> 00:51:55,671
see people that I know lose the Bitcoin, but it's a reality of what could happen.

695
00:51:55,671 --> 00:52:10,197
So the message really is if we can help anyone in this space to say you know don leverage your Bitcoin don fall for this you know if you want to go and spend your money on a holiday or something special you been saving up for then you know

696
00:52:10,437 --> 00:52:13,437
sell a bit of Bitcoin and use the fear to pay for that thing.

697
00:52:13,957 --> 00:52:16,157
And then when you earn more money and you save more money,

698
00:52:16,197 --> 00:52:17,297
you put it back into Bitcoin.

699
00:52:17,437 --> 00:52:20,597
And I know it gets awkward when the price is going up and down and that

700
00:52:20,597 --> 00:52:21,237
kind of thing,

701
00:52:21,237 --> 00:52:21,837
but it's,

702
00:52:21,837 --> 00:52:22,117
yeah,

703
00:52:22,257 --> 00:52:23,217
it's something,

704
00:52:23,417 --> 00:52:24,697
a friend of mine,

705
00:52:24,797 --> 00:52:27,117
identified a new term called spendle.

706
00:52:27,117 --> 00:52:34,457
he's kind of um very much on the side of bitcoin being a currency not being a store of value and

707
00:52:34,457 --> 00:52:39,397
he said if you if you want to spend your bitcoin if there's somewhere you're going and you're using

708
00:52:39,397 --> 00:52:44,017
lightning to buy a beer or to buy dinner and you're supporting that bitcoin merchant which

709
00:52:44,017 --> 00:52:47,917
is what we should all be doing because we're supporting the network we're testing the tools

710
00:52:47,917 --> 00:52:53,257
we're promoting merchants accepting bitcoin you are you know you're you're selling your bitcoin

711
00:52:53,257 --> 00:52:54,917
effectively for food or for drinks.

712
00:52:55,257 --> 00:52:57,137
And then you could go and take some of the fear

713
00:52:57,137 --> 00:52:58,977
that you might have spent on those things

714
00:52:58,977 --> 00:53:00,077
and turn that into Bitcoin.

715
00:53:00,737 --> 00:53:02,497
And okay, you're paying fees and stuff.

716
00:53:02,617 --> 00:53:04,637
And yeah, you might not get the price quite right.

717
00:53:04,717 --> 00:53:06,217
You might lose a little bit on the price moving

718
00:53:06,217 --> 00:53:07,797
if you don't happen to go and buy the Bitcoin

719
00:53:07,797 --> 00:53:09,857
whilst you're in the bar buying the beer.

720
00:53:09,997 --> 00:53:13,437
But, you know, that's just a thing

721
00:53:13,437 --> 00:53:14,397
that you take the hit from

722
00:53:14,397 --> 00:53:16,777
because what really is going to make Bitcoin win

723
00:53:16,777 --> 00:53:20,037
in the long run is actually spending Bitcoin as a currency,

724
00:53:20,397 --> 00:53:21,537
you know, actually enabling merchants

725
00:53:21,537 --> 00:53:22,777
to accept that Bitcoin.

726
00:53:23,677 --> 00:53:25,797
Because when they're accepting credit cards,

727
00:53:25,897 --> 00:53:28,337
they're paying 2% or 3% transaction fees.

728
00:53:29,637 --> 00:53:32,417
And this is one of the key things that Satoshi talks about

729
00:53:32,417 --> 00:53:33,517
in the Bitcoin white paper.

730
00:53:33,837 --> 00:53:35,157
People forget all of this.

731
00:53:35,357 --> 00:53:38,757
The transaction fees on credit cards are relatively high.

732
00:53:38,917 --> 00:53:41,177
Most people don't see them because it's the merchants that pay it.

733
00:53:42,037 --> 00:53:43,937
Bitcoin Lightning doesn't have these fees.

734
00:53:44,757 --> 00:53:47,857
So it's a way of reducing the cost to the merchant

735
00:53:47,857 --> 00:53:49,397
of accepting your transaction.

736
00:53:49,397 --> 00:53:56,177
that's a that's a benefit of bitcoin you're utilizing the features of bitcoin that make it

737
00:53:56,177 --> 00:54:01,737
a better form of money than fiat money and you're promoting the network of merchants that will accept

738
00:54:01,737 --> 00:54:07,717
bitcoin you're enabling them to add more bitcoin themselves if they're actually storing that as a

739
00:54:07,717 --> 00:54:12,137
bitcoin treasury company rather than cashing out to fear maybe they need to do that to pay the costs

740
00:54:12,137 --> 00:54:16,197
but if you've got a business owner and they want to stack bitcoin that's a good way for them to do

741
00:54:16,197 --> 00:54:22,257
it because they're not having to go in on exchange and buy it they're just receiving it they're

742
00:54:22,257 --> 00:54:28,857
earning it through the business that they're carrying out so yeah it's it's a whole kind of

743
00:54:28,857 --> 00:54:34,197
ethos that i feel like a lot of the bitcoin community being led down this route of bitcoin

744
00:54:34,197 --> 00:54:40,477
treasury never sell your bitcoin borrow against your bitcoin but it's all a financialization of

745
00:54:40,477 --> 00:54:45,417
bitcoin that's distracting people from what bitcoin really is and what bitcoin really should be

746
00:54:45,417 --> 00:54:51,937
what satoshi wanted it to be at the beginning and what you know i i think real bitcoin is really all

747
00:54:51,937 --> 00:54:57,157
about this is a currency it's a better currency yeah okay it's a store of value as well as every

748
00:54:57,157 --> 00:55:01,297
currency should be you don't really want to use a currency that's going to lose all of its value

749
00:55:01,297 --> 00:55:10,117
over two days but it's you know it's it's a kind of it's a new um instrument that is better for the

750
00:55:10,117 --> 00:55:14,177
people than money that's under the control of the government.

751
00:55:15,497 --> 00:55:19,997
And that's where we really win is by using it, the grassroots adoption.

752
00:55:20,357 --> 00:55:25,717
That's how we win, not through companies listing on stock exchanges with Bitcoin in a balance

753
00:55:25,717 --> 00:55:29,217
sheet, selling their shares for more than they're really worth and using that to buy

754
00:55:29,217 --> 00:55:29,717
more Bitcoin.

755
00:55:29,957 --> 00:55:35,217
That's a short term fad that's making a lot of money for a lot of financial people, a

756
00:55:35,217 --> 00:55:40,037
lot of VCs, a lot of people that are getting money from floating companies, CEOs that are

757
00:55:40,037 --> 00:55:43,257
able to do it and time the market right you know that they're the ones that are making money

758
00:55:43,257 --> 00:55:46,817
the people are losing out the ones that are overpaying for the shares that don't really

759
00:55:46,817 --> 00:55:51,817
understand they should really be you know encouraged to actually buy real bitcoin not

760
00:55:51,817 --> 00:55:56,417
buy the bitcoin treasury companies the people are getting caught out in the narrative of

761
00:55:56,417 --> 00:56:01,777
never sell your bitcoin getting leveraged you know i really hope they don't get wrecked but

762
00:56:01,777 --> 00:56:08,577
you know that's where if you if you if you think that markets will tend to bring the most pain to

763
00:56:08,577 --> 00:56:13,577
most of the people most of the time that's where the real pain is you know it's it's a flash crash

764
00:56:13,577 --> 00:56:17,717
in the price that takes out all of that leverage you know and it's it's a frightening thought but

765
00:56:17,717 --> 00:56:25,777
it can happen it can and it has and it will again and we never know at what time but the the the

766
00:56:25,777 --> 00:56:32,397
masters they are like wall street is the masters of this stuff like you know the the flash crashes

767
00:56:32,397 --> 00:56:38,337
in the past they get blamed on fat finger and this and the other thing no it's it it's all

768
00:56:38,337 --> 00:56:43,417
lined up in the background by power players and they're all trying to beat each other to the punch

769
00:56:43,417 --> 00:56:50,257
and you know i worked in foreign exchange markets for 18 years and the saying was information is key

770
00:56:50,257 --> 00:56:57,397
believe me you don't have the information there's a very few people that have all of the information

771
00:56:57,397 --> 00:57:03,697
and they've got key players put in place so if i look at if i look at one of these loan companies

772
00:57:08,337 --> 00:57:11,977
they're offering, so you have to, like you rightly said,

773
00:57:12,037 --> 00:57:15,097
you have to give up your alloyedial title

774
00:57:15,097 --> 00:57:17,837
so you have true ownership of that Bitcoin.

775
00:57:18,597 --> 00:57:21,617
You are, you listen to the siren song

776
00:57:21,617 --> 00:57:23,697
of you never have to sell your Bitcoin,

777
00:57:23,997 --> 00:57:26,137
just leverage it, bro, live like the rich guys.

778
00:57:26,237 --> 00:57:27,377
This is how they all do it.

779
00:57:27,577 --> 00:57:28,917
And, you know, they've got everything in trusts

780
00:57:28,917 --> 00:57:31,857
and all this kind of, so you give that up

781
00:57:31,857 --> 00:57:35,017
to the middleman, XYZ company,

782
00:57:35,217 --> 00:57:37,457
who gives you fiat in return.

783
00:57:38,337 --> 00:58:01,757
Where does the fiat come from? It's not that company. That company doesn't have it. They're a startup. They're running very, very lean. The margins are tiny. They're just about surviving, if not profitable at all. All of the money is from the backers.

784
00:58:01,757 --> 00:58:23,377
So who are the backers? Who does the fiat come from? And in some cases, that could be venture capitalists, that could be private investors, but it could also be Wall Street registered brokerage firms or even banks that have direct credit line to the Federal Reserve.

785
00:58:23,377 --> 00:58:33,577
so you could be giving up bitcoin for counterfeit fiat from someone you have no idea where it's come

786
00:58:33,577 --> 00:58:41,117
from and the loan company in the middle is just like holding your bitcoin in escrow but they don't

787
00:58:41,117 --> 00:58:45,217
tell you where that fiat's come from then you'll be in charged interest on it so that's usury

788
00:58:45,217 --> 00:58:49,517
straight up because if the fiat has been just printed and counterfeit in the background and

789
00:58:49,517 --> 00:58:54,877
funneled your way. And these interest rates, they range anywhere from what I can see, anywhere from

790
00:58:54,877 --> 00:59:02,957
like 5%, 6%, 7.5% up to 12.5% and higher. So you're giving up the thing you truly own

791
00:59:02,957 --> 00:59:11,657
to a third party in exchange for fear, which you're paying usury on top of back. And you face

792
00:59:11,657 --> 00:59:17,497
not only the counterparty risk of the company that you've loaned it to, the counterparty risk

793
00:59:17,497 --> 00:59:26,377
of all of the backers that could, like you just described, form a narrative and through very

794
00:59:26,377 --> 00:59:34,777
manipulative ways using derivatives markets and headlines and whatever else, cause a crash in the

795
00:59:34,777 --> 00:59:38,817
price, not only in the price just in that, but also in the stock market just in general, just

796
00:59:38,817 --> 00:59:43,717
really to pile on the pressure because two are becoming a bit more correlated as time goes on.

797
00:59:43,717 --> 00:59:46,857
and then you are wrecked.

798
00:59:47,697 --> 00:59:49,877
They take your Bitcoin and you still owe them

799
00:59:49,877 --> 00:59:52,317
because you'll still owe the interest.

800
00:59:53,777 --> 00:59:53,857
Yeah.

801
00:59:54,757 --> 00:59:56,597
Yeah, it's kind of, I mean,

802
00:59:56,737 --> 00:59:58,837
there's a whole kind of wider context to this.

803
00:59:58,977 --> 01:00:00,417
Have you read the book, The Great Taking?

804
01:00:01,317 --> 01:00:01,717
Yes.

805
01:00:01,977 --> 01:00:04,497
Actually, I employed Guy Swan to read it to me.

806
01:00:05,837 --> 01:00:07,757
Shout out to the Bitcoin Audible podcast.

807
01:00:07,977 --> 01:00:08,537
Thank you, Guy.

808
01:00:08,837 --> 01:00:09,217
Yes.

809
01:00:10,437 --> 01:00:11,317
What a book.

810
01:00:12,277 --> 01:00:12,557
Yeah.

811
01:00:12,557 --> 01:00:19,057
there you go are you going to publish that one on fanfares well uh we should do you should get

812
01:00:19,057 --> 01:00:23,457
hold of guy we're going to get on to fanfares actually about this yeah that would be a great

813
01:00:23,457 --> 01:00:28,337
book to have on there yeah like guy swan's got a great voice and that that is a real bitcoin

814
01:00:28,337 --> 01:00:33,057
a book it's it's something someone recommended to me i think shortly after it was published

815
01:00:33,057 --> 01:00:38,197
and i i was already thinking along those lines of like you know everything's a derivative we don't

816
01:00:38,197 --> 01:00:43,357
really own anything and it's a huge rabbit hole that people can go down but the reality is in the

817
01:00:43,357 --> 01:00:49,157
financial markets you actually have no ownership of any of the assets you think you own everything's

818
01:00:49,157 --> 01:00:55,677
credit any price movement that you gain from is a derivative contract that's the structure of it

819
01:00:55,677 --> 01:01:02,517
it's a whole matrix of illusion effectively um but yeah the there's people like caitlin long

820
01:01:02,517 --> 01:01:06,817
talk about this and i can't remember the name of the guy that wrote the great taking but very smart

821
01:01:06,817 --> 01:01:11,617
guy he is in the financial markets he understands it very deeply now you've had someone i'll find it

822
01:01:11,617 --> 01:01:17,257
carry on yeah yeah he's he now has most of his assets i think in farmland around the world

823
01:01:17,257 --> 01:01:22,677
because he he's pretty much convinced that uh that at some point they're going to come and steal

824
01:01:22,677 --> 01:01:26,897
everything hence the name the great taking you know because they have the legal right to take it

825
01:01:26,897 --> 01:01:33,377
all and uh who knows exactly how or when all of this will happen but it's it's a frightening

826
01:01:33,377 --> 01:01:39,237
prospect i'd advise everyone to read it but it kind of goes down again to the core of what bitcoin

827
01:01:39,237 --> 01:01:43,117
is bitcoin is your self-custody ownership of something that you have in your own right

828
01:01:43,117 --> 01:01:48,217
anything that you own through the financial markets is intermediated by brokerage or by a bank

829
01:01:48,217 --> 01:01:51,997
they own it on your behalf you have like shares in a nominated company

830
01:01:51,997 --> 01:01:57,717
and you you don't own the shares the nominee company owns the shares because it comes down

831
01:01:57,717 --> 01:02:00,757
to the legal ownership you know the legal ownership is the holding of the piece of paper

832
01:02:00,757 --> 01:02:06,917
share certificate so the nominee company keeps that in a safe you can't digitally own a share

833
01:02:06,917 --> 01:02:11,977
there isn't a legal setup for that so they just give you a brokerage account where you have numbers

834
01:02:11,977 --> 01:02:17,997
on a screen and you have a contract with them that says um you know if the price goes up you

835
01:02:17,997 --> 01:02:22,417
get more fiat the price goes down you get less fiat so if you think owning shares in a brokerage

836
01:02:22,417 --> 01:02:38,863
account protects you from hyperinflation then all you really going to get is a lot more of that that worth less and less as the share prices go up If the value of the money goes to zero the value of your shares is actually zero because you just have billions and billions of the fiat money that worth nothing So

837
01:02:38,863 --> 01:02:49,243
it's a real subtlety to the structure of financial markets. And people like Katie Long,

838
01:02:49,343 --> 01:02:52,663
who I respect greatly for the way that she speaks out and stuff like this, she's a real

839
01:02:52,663 --> 01:02:54,323
kind of early days Bitcoiner.

840
01:02:54,843 --> 01:02:55,903
She was on Mt. Gox.

841
01:02:56,143 --> 01:02:57,643
She got into self-custody after that.

842
01:02:57,783 --> 01:03:00,883
But yeah, she tried to start Custodia Bank

843
01:03:00,883 --> 01:03:04,883
where they were going to be a one-for-one reserve

844
01:03:04,883 --> 01:03:06,863
and they wouldn't let her have a banking license

845
01:03:06,863 --> 01:03:07,683
for some reason.

846
01:03:08,343 --> 01:03:10,463
I think they thought that people might take their money

847
01:03:10,463 --> 01:03:12,663
out of other banks and put it into her bank

848
01:03:12,663 --> 01:03:15,163
because they had more security there.

849
01:03:15,263 --> 01:03:17,003
Might have been a bad thing for the financial system.

850
01:03:18,083 --> 01:03:20,043
But yeah, that was also a crypto bank.

851
01:03:20,043 --> 01:03:22,883
and yeah, she wasn't allowed to have a banking license.

852
01:03:23,163 --> 01:03:25,603
So there's various things like this that are going on.

853
01:03:25,743 --> 01:03:26,843
I mean, I've got to say,

854
01:03:26,903 --> 01:03:28,803
I love the independent media scene

855
01:03:28,803 --> 01:03:31,383
for keeping us informed about stuff like this.

856
01:03:31,503 --> 01:03:34,083
You know, the amount of stuff that we can learn now

857
01:03:34,083 --> 01:03:36,223
through podcasts and YouTube videos

858
01:03:36,223 --> 01:03:39,443
where people like yourself interview people

859
01:03:39,443 --> 01:03:41,343
that understand this kind of stuff.

860
01:03:42,763 --> 01:03:44,863
You know, it's a way of educating yourself.

861
01:03:45,003 --> 01:03:47,583
It's a way of understanding things that, you know,

862
01:03:47,583 --> 01:03:51,923
you might have had to do a lot of research in a library before, you know,

863
01:03:51,983 --> 01:03:56,183
now you've got a lot of it at your fingertips and you can really kind of find

864
01:03:56,183 --> 01:04:00,423
something new, research that area more. And yeah, a lot,

865
01:04:00,423 --> 01:04:05,403
a lot of people are now able to understand the financial system in a lot more

866
01:04:05,403 --> 01:04:06,583
detail than they ever did.

867
01:04:07,083 --> 01:04:10,723
And it's probably a reason why there's so many Bitcoin podcasts out there,

868
01:04:10,723 --> 01:04:13,143
because that's how we educate each other, isn't it? You know,

869
01:04:13,163 --> 01:04:14,963
we kind of interview each other.

870
01:04:14,963 --> 01:04:18,043
we move forward the body of knowledge about what's happening.

871
01:04:19,583 --> 01:04:25,323
And yeah, that's, I guess we're both making a contribution to that with this podcast,

872
01:04:25,363 --> 01:04:30,123
where we're trying to spread the word that we understand about what's going on with the

873
01:04:30,123 --> 01:04:31,883
financialization of Bitcoin in this cycle.

874
01:04:32,663 --> 01:04:33,143
Absolutely.

875
01:04:33,563 --> 01:04:37,823
And yeah, it was a great shame to watch Caitlin go through that pain.

876
01:04:37,823 --> 01:04:42,243
I remember the tweet of the stack of documents that she had.

877
01:04:42,243 --> 01:04:50,403
It was just ridiculous that they jumped through every single hoop and they went back and they went back and they went back.

878
01:04:50,503 --> 01:04:59,323
And then finally, no, you are not allowed to be a licensed bank because you want to run full reserve banking.

879
01:04:59,663 --> 01:05:00,423
You can't have that.

880
01:05:01,043 --> 01:05:02,483
My goodness, what are you talking about?

881
01:05:02,483 --> 01:05:10,703
If you want a banking license, you're going to have to run a fractional reserve bank and play by our rules and sign up to our system.

882
01:05:10,703 --> 01:05:13,083
And that's the way the game is played.

883
01:05:13,323 --> 01:05:19,523
And if people can't see how unfair that is, I mean, just that exercise that she did alone,

884
01:05:19,603 --> 01:05:24,743
her and her team just exposed so much of what is truly going on in the system.

885
01:05:25,143 --> 01:05:28,163
It's one big club and she won't in it.

886
01:05:28,223 --> 01:05:29,323
And she ain't going to be.

887
01:05:29,583 --> 01:05:31,723
And nor are you and nor am I.

888
01:05:32,183 --> 01:05:34,463
But we can buy and self-custody Bitcoin.

889
01:05:34,963 --> 01:05:37,343
And that's the best thing we can do.

890
01:05:37,343 --> 01:05:45,863
and recently actually there was um a new bank has been uh uh given the license have you have

891
01:05:45,863 --> 01:05:50,763
you heard of this one Erebor Bank I haven't heard of that one at all no please tell me

892
01:05:50,763 --> 01:05:55,523
so Erebor or Erebor I don't know how you pronounce it but apparently Lord of Rings

893
01:05:55,523 --> 01:06:03,263
Lord of the Rings fame uh I think it was a mountain that was uh full of uh precious gems or

894
01:06:03,263 --> 01:06:07,203
stones I don't know I'm not a big fan of the films right yeah I know that when you mean full

895
01:06:07,203 --> 01:06:11,783
gold yeah there was a dragon that lived there and guarded the gold yeah right a dragon that lived

896
01:06:11,783 --> 01:06:17,983
there that guarded the gold so and it was called mount erebor is that correct yeah that's it yeah

897
01:06:17,983 --> 01:06:25,263
right okay so new bank has been this one new bank has been uh given the green light

898
01:06:25,263 --> 01:06:30,523
erebor bank uh co-founded by technology figures such as peter teal

899
01:06:30,523 --> 01:06:36,803
our old friend palmer lucky and joe lonsdale recently received preliminary conditional

900
01:06:36,803 --> 01:06:41,103
approval from the office of the comptroller of the currency to operate as a national bank

901
01:06:41,103 --> 01:06:46,843
this marks a significant step for the cryptocurrency and tech focused banking in the united states

902
01:06:46,843 --> 01:06:55,063
so they're going to be um uh like pushing cryptocurrencies and all this kind of nonsense

903
01:06:55,063 --> 01:07:02,903
i assume uh it's funny that they should get the license but yet caitlin was unable to now

904
01:07:02,903 --> 01:07:11,043
I couldn't somebody pointed this out to me on Nostra about oh look yeah uh the mountain

905
01:07:11,043 --> 01:07:22,363
full of gold um protected by uh no a mountain full of gold um and called um called Erebor just

906
01:07:22,363 --> 01:07:27,463
so happens that this Erebor bank has been given the green light by the the technocrats currently

907
01:07:27,463 --> 01:07:35,803
in charge uh all we're missing is the dragon guarding it and i'm like you do realize that

908
01:07:35,803 --> 01:07:40,923
peter teal is an anagram of the reptile he's like oh shit

909
01:07:40,923 --> 01:07:48,723
this i mean my goodness this is either top level trolling

910
01:07:48,723 --> 01:07:56,143
or the biggest coincidence you've ever seen in your life okay that's actually an anagram of his

911
01:07:56,143 --> 01:08:03,403
name the red yes okay that's interesting and he's the dragon that's guarding the gold in the arable

912
01:08:03,403 --> 01:08:12,643
looks like it to me they will always they will always give you signs simon yeah okay all right

913
01:08:12,643 --> 01:08:18,423
that's interesting yeah that's a fascinating uh fact that that i i didn't know another thing that

914
01:08:18,423 --> 01:08:25,583
i'll go away and research yes yeah go go search overview of arable bank and um yeah what they who

915
01:08:25,583 --> 01:08:29,503
they're going to be serving and why they're going to be existing and whatever else so

916
01:08:29,503 --> 01:08:36,723
the great taking was david rogers web i looked up david rogers web yeah very smart going

917
01:08:36,723 --> 01:08:41,863
worth a read that one and he's got a couple of youtube videos that he's done about it as well

918
01:08:41,863 --> 01:08:46,843
i was going to say there's a documentary so people can go just check this out you can download the

919
01:08:46,843 --> 01:08:53,363
book for free uh pdf version you can go and listen to guy swan on bitcoin audible read it he does it

920
01:08:53,363 --> 01:08:59,083
in four parts and you know i love guy and what he's done over the years listen to his podcast now

921
01:08:59,083 --> 01:09:05,483
he had in his nose since like 2017 18 whenever he launched it uh or just go and buy the book uh it

922
01:09:05,483 --> 01:09:11,643
is incredible i hope david's got some bitcoin i really do because to have written that and not

923
01:09:11,643 --> 01:09:18,743
grok's bitcoin would be so yeah what a miss he has yeah i mean i don't know for certain but i know

924
01:09:18,743 --> 01:09:23,263
he's kind of talked about cryptocurrencies being the solution to the problems

925
01:09:23,263 --> 01:09:25,743
he's identified. And if you think about it,

926
01:09:25,743 --> 01:09:28,743
if you go down the rabbit hole to the extent that he does in terms of financial

927
01:09:29,363 --> 01:09:31,003
assets, not having any real value,

928
01:09:31,003 --> 01:09:35,763
you've got to be able to recognize the ownership that Bitcoin gives you.

929
01:09:36,703 --> 01:09:39,503
I know a lot of people that own Bitcoin don't like to talk about it,

930
01:09:39,543 --> 01:09:41,203
particularly if they're very wealthy, like he is,

931
01:09:41,283 --> 01:09:44,503
that they like to keep it a bit quiet because they don't want to be an,

932
01:09:44,563 --> 01:09:48,123
you know, kind of a vulnerable to an attack. So yeah,

933
01:09:48,123 --> 01:09:49,423
he might just be not talking about it.

934
01:09:49,703 --> 01:09:51,683
He doesn't want to be openly a Bitcoiner

935
01:09:51,683 --> 01:09:53,283
because that could make him vulnerable.

936
01:09:54,183 --> 01:09:56,483
He talks about owning farmland around the world, as I said,

937
01:09:56,603 --> 01:10:01,103
which is a kind of more secure asset than money in the bank.

938
01:10:02,303 --> 01:10:05,803
That can still be taken with men with guns, though,

939
01:10:05,923 --> 01:10:07,183
if a government decides.

940
01:10:07,683 --> 01:10:08,463
I mean, this is...

941
01:10:08,463 --> 01:10:09,503
Yeah, not even with that.

942
01:10:09,623 --> 01:10:11,963
I mean, I bought some farmland in the UK a few years ago

943
01:10:11,963 --> 01:10:16,123
thinking that the UK government would never repeal

944
01:10:16,123 --> 01:10:18,383
the inheritance tax exemption.

945
01:10:19,063 --> 01:10:20,303
They were never to be stupid enough

946
01:10:20,303 --> 01:10:21,203
to do such a thing,

947
01:10:21,303 --> 01:10:22,723
but it turns out the Labour government

948
01:10:22,723 --> 01:10:23,723
have actually done that.

949
01:10:24,023 --> 01:10:27,303
So, yeah, that damages the value

950
01:10:27,303 --> 01:10:29,343
of my farmland in the UK to some extent.

951
01:10:29,563 --> 01:10:31,543
And yeah, they would take part of it

952
01:10:31,543 --> 01:10:32,563
away upon my death.

953
01:10:32,703 --> 01:10:33,803
That's how it works.

954
01:10:33,963 --> 01:10:35,983
You know, that's, yeah, it can be,

955
01:10:36,003 --> 01:10:37,783
it can be confiscated.

956
01:10:37,923 --> 01:10:40,123
Yeah, I mean, and you're not kind of

957
01:10:40,123 --> 01:10:41,963
geographically free with farmland

958
01:10:41,963 --> 01:10:43,063
in the way that you are with Bitcoin.

959
01:10:44,103 --> 01:10:45,303
Even with gold, it's hard to take

960
01:10:45,303 --> 01:10:51,683
through an airport but um people do it sometimes but um yeah farmland you're stuck within that

961
01:10:51,683 --> 01:10:56,603
jurisdiction you know and subservient to that legal system subservient to that government if

962
01:10:56,603 --> 01:11:02,263
they choose to tax you on that asset they can take at least part of it away if you end up with

963
01:11:02,263 --> 01:11:06,463
a communist regime which is not impossible in europe in the next 20 years in my opinion

964
01:11:06,463 --> 01:11:12,083
and then they might take all of it away i tell you what do you want to do you want a little bit

965
01:11:12,083 --> 01:11:21,003
of fun uh i because i did this exercise with my daughter uh just today um let's see

966
01:11:21,003 --> 01:11:24,263
10 planks of the communist manifesto

967
01:11:24,263 --> 01:11:36,003
have you ever read these i know one of one of the key ones is a central bank number five right so

968
01:11:36,003 --> 01:11:42,563
stop me listeners if you hear something that you do not currently live under

969
01:11:42,563 --> 01:11:50,383
and this is this is the the 10 planks Karl Marx communist manifesto number one abolition of

970
01:11:50,383 --> 01:11:56,243
property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes so has there been an

971
01:11:56,243 --> 01:12:00,903
abolition of private property rights in the UK in any way shape or form or anywhere that you live

972
01:12:00,903 --> 01:12:08,263
two two is a brilliant one a heavy progressive or graduated income tax

973
01:12:08,263 --> 01:12:15,503
there you go that's already there three abolition of all rights of inheritance well you just touched

974
01:12:15,503 --> 01:12:22,163
on that not all rights yet but you know there's a creep four confiscation of the property of all

975
01:12:22,163 --> 01:12:29,643
immigrants and rebels so you know you can't own anything if you remember they they what was it um

976
01:12:29,643 --> 01:12:34,123
Abramovich had his yacht taken because of something.

977
01:12:34,263 --> 01:12:35,803
I can't remember exactly what it was.

978
01:12:35,923 --> 01:12:37,863
And didn't they take Chelsea Football Club off of him?

979
01:12:38,983 --> 01:12:41,783
He kind of figured out he had to sell it quite quickly, didn't he?

980
01:12:41,843 --> 01:12:45,483
Because they were freezing the assets of any Russian people,

981
01:12:45,483 --> 01:12:47,843
whether or not they were associated with Putin.

982
01:12:48,103 --> 01:12:49,483
You know, it was like...

983
01:12:50,043 --> 01:13:07,849
Look I think most countries around the world have frozen assets of certain races or ethnic groups at some stage in their history Number five centralization of credit in the hands of the state by means of a national bank with state capital and exclusive monopoly over currency

984
01:13:08,929 --> 01:13:10,529
All right, there's your Bank of England.

985
01:13:10,749 --> 01:13:11,969
There's your Bank of Canada.

986
01:13:12,129 --> 01:13:13,069
There's your Federal Reserve.

987
01:13:13,229 --> 01:13:14,069
There's your Bank of Japan.

988
01:13:14,349 --> 01:13:16,129
You choose whichever country you live in.

989
01:13:16,129 --> 01:13:22,249
Six, centralization of the means of communication and transport into the hands of the state.

990
01:13:23,149 --> 01:13:26,269
Well, you know, look at your telecommunications companies.

991
01:13:26,529 --> 01:13:30,969
Look at the way that the roads are built, the bridges are built, the railroads are built.

992
01:13:31,729 --> 01:13:35,549
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state.

993
01:13:36,529 --> 01:13:39,409
Number eight, equal liability of all labor.

994
01:13:40,409 --> 01:13:44,269
So we're talking about like probably minimum wage laws there, maybe.

995
01:13:44,269 --> 01:13:51,069
establishment of industrial armies especially for agriculture that's all in number eight

996
01:13:51,069 --> 01:13:58,149
number nine combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries uh so i mean classic

997
01:13:58,149 --> 01:14:03,969
i think a classic example there would be fertilizer oh yeah that's already there for sure yeah i mean

998
01:14:03,969 --> 01:14:12,049
come on number 10 my favorite my personal favorite number 10 care to guess anyone anyone listening

999
01:14:12,049 --> 01:14:14,009
Simon would you care to guess

1000
01:14:14,009 --> 01:14:16,009
I don't know the answer

1001
01:14:16,009 --> 01:14:17,209
I'm keen to hear

1002
01:14:17,209 --> 01:14:20,849
Free education for all children in public schools

1003
01:14:20,849 --> 01:14:21,869
Really?

1004
01:14:22,269 --> 01:14:22,449
Yep

1005
01:14:22,449 --> 01:14:26,749
So anybody listening right now

1006
01:14:26,749 --> 01:14:28,649
If you think you live in a

1007
01:14:28,649 --> 01:14:30,549
Capitalist country in air quotes

1008
01:14:30,549 --> 01:14:31,589
You don't

1009
01:14:31,589 --> 01:14:33,989
And I've probably just listed

1010
01:14:33,989 --> 01:14:36,469
10 truth bombs

1011
01:14:36,469 --> 01:14:38,329
Communism won the day

1012
01:14:38,329 --> 01:14:39,069
Always did

1013
01:14:39,069 --> 01:14:41,089
You've lived under it

1014
01:14:41,089 --> 01:14:46,289
we all do with the sheer veneer of having some kind of autonomy.

1015
01:14:46,469 --> 01:14:47,089
But we don't.

1016
01:14:47,849 --> 01:14:51,069
This whole idea that the Conservative Party were ever right wing

1017
01:14:51,069 --> 01:14:52,169
was a complete illusion.

1018
01:14:52,469 --> 01:14:54,829
They were just another version of socialism, you know,

1019
01:14:54,829 --> 01:14:58,169
and become ever more evident these days with the Uni Party,

1020
01:14:58,429 --> 01:14:59,909
the things they were doing in the end.

1021
01:14:59,989 --> 01:15:02,369
It was a continuation of the Blair Project, wasn't it, really?

1022
01:15:03,729 --> 01:15:05,949
Yeah, it's a sad fact.

1023
01:15:06,129 --> 01:15:07,409
Yeah, it's a very sad fact.

1024
01:15:07,409 --> 01:15:23,029
It's one of the things that's led me to flee England in the hope of better weather and escaping woke policies and escaping burdensome taxes and various things like that.

1025
01:15:23,189 --> 01:15:28,869
Yeah, it's not the country that I used to believe in, I have to say.

1026
01:15:29,029 --> 01:15:35,809
I've lost a bit of faith in England, you know, before Keir Starmer, but then Keir Starmer has really put the nail in the coffin on that one.

1027
01:15:35,809 --> 01:15:40,689
You know, he really has his free speech laws or whatever they call them these days.

1028
01:15:40,829 --> 01:15:44,169
You know, it's kind of a digital ID is going to save us all.

1029
01:15:44,929 --> 01:15:45,469
So, you know.

1030
01:15:45,509 --> 01:15:47,469
Oh, yes, that's going to solve the immigration problem.

1031
01:15:47,829 --> 01:15:48,989
And that will bring you back.

1032
01:15:49,889 --> 01:15:51,209
Right. Fanfares, mate.

1033
01:15:51,389 --> 01:15:55,589
Let's talk about Fanfares, because that's what we talked about, like the first time you came on.

1034
01:15:55,589 --> 01:16:01,569
So if people hadn't listened to that one or maybe are new to Fanfares, it's been around for a while.

1035
01:16:02,469 --> 01:16:05,169
You've you've been building quietly in the background.

1036
01:16:05,809 --> 01:16:07,949
What do you have to announce?

1037
01:16:08,009 --> 01:16:11,129
What do you want people to understand about Fanfares

1038
01:16:11,129 --> 01:16:12,429
and what you're trying to build here?

1039
01:16:13,189 --> 01:16:15,929
Well, I would say to tie in with what we talked about before,

1040
01:16:16,109 --> 01:16:21,189
Fanfares is really kind of my idea that has come about

1041
01:16:21,189 --> 01:16:28,169
as a result of really kind of thinking about Bitcoin

1042
01:16:28,169 --> 01:16:32,089
as a digital currency, as being a peer-to-peer money

1043
01:16:32,089 --> 01:16:34,029
with incredibly low transaction costs.

1044
01:16:34,029 --> 01:16:39,189
and I think for me that was a penny drop moment with Bitcoin where previously I'd owned Bitcoin

1045
01:16:39,189 --> 01:16:44,409
I'd seen it as a trading opportunity but by going to meetups and talking to people that really

1046
01:16:44,409 --> 01:16:49,409
understood it that they would explain to me yeah this is this is a different kind of currency

1047
01:16:49,409 --> 01:16:56,089
because you can transact in small amounts with low transaction costs that makes that possible

1048
01:16:56,089 --> 01:17:03,829
and then following on from that my thoughts were maybe that could make a different kind of digital

1049
01:17:03,829 --> 01:17:09,109
media system because if you think about the way that digital media has evolved it's it's mostly

1050
01:17:09,109 --> 01:17:14,869
been funded by advertising because there hasn't really been a way for people to pay for small

1051
01:17:14,869 --> 01:17:19,189
items of media so short videos or podcasts people haven't been able to pay for that so

1052
01:17:19,189 --> 01:17:24,109
the only route for monetization for creators has been through advertising through giving the content

1053
01:17:24,109 --> 01:17:29,009
away for free and advertising because in order to get paid directly with the credit card system

1054
01:17:29,009 --> 01:17:33,269
they would have to set themselves up as a merchant and they would have to charge a price that justifies

1055
01:17:33,269 --> 01:17:38,069
the minimum transaction fee of 30 cents or whatever it is even with paypal as a commercial

1056
01:17:38,069 --> 01:17:43,909
enterprise you're you're required to charge that minimum fee so my thoughts were what about if we

1057
01:17:43,909 --> 01:17:49,189
could build some kind of system that enables creators to publish and get paid directly with

1058
01:17:49,189 --> 01:17:56,229
bitcoin lightning and and that's what we've built and i i started on this one about three and a half

1059
01:17:56,229 --> 01:18:00,629
years ago and then at some point during that journey i discovered nuster and thought this is

1060
01:18:00,629 --> 01:18:05,189
is fantastic someone's already done a whole lot of work on this one they've created a whole protocol

1061
01:18:05,189 --> 01:18:10,129
where we can distribute content to each other and we can tip each other for it which is great

1062
01:18:10,129 --> 01:18:14,589
and we've also had the whole value for value movement with fountain and the smart guys there

1063
01:18:14,589 --> 01:18:20,829
that enable people to tip for podcasts but sadly you know we have to be realistic about the way

1064
01:18:20,829 --> 01:18:25,749
that business model is working and no one's really making a lot of money out of that system because

1065
01:18:25,749 --> 01:18:29,969
human nature being what it is people don't tend to pay for something they can get for free

1066
01:18:29,969 --> 01:18:33,889
It just doesn't work like that. You don't end up with a lot of rich buskers in the world.

1067
01:18:34,629 --> 01:18:37,069
Even most musicians these days don't actually make a lot of money.

1068
01:18:37,189 --> 01:18:40,749
But back in the days when they used to sell CDs, they did actually make a lot of money.

1069
01:18:40,849 --> 01:18:43,669
People had to pay for that individual item in order to get that music.

1070
01:18:44,549 --> 01:18:49,789
So what Fanfares is, it's utilizing the NOSTA protocol, which is a decentralized communication protocol,

1071
01:18:49,909 --> 01:18:54,889
which enables creators to distribute outside of platforms.

1072
01:18:55,569 --> 01:18:57,429
And they can get paid outside of the platforms.

1073
01:18:57,429 --> 01:19:03,689
People can send them Bitcoin Lightning directly to their profile or for an individual item of content.

1074
01:19:05,049 --> 01:19:14,089
And what we've built on top of that with FanFares is the ability for them to encrypt an item of content so that it's out there.

1075
01:19:14,169 --> 01:19:20,889
It's published on Nostra, but it's only accessible when somebody zaps the right amount of Bitcoin.

1076
01:19:20,889 --> 01:19:26,489
So if they set the price to be a thousand sats, it's just about a dollar at current prices,

1077
01:19:27,209 --> 01:19:32,409
then that content becomes accessible to their Nostra identity when they've done that zap.

1078
01:19:32,409 --> 01:19:36,969
So the system recognizes that they've paid the money. It creates a decryption key as a Nostra

1079
01:19:36,969 --> 01:19:42,489
event that's only accessible to them. That enables them to decode the content and to listen to the

1080
01:19:42,489 --> 01:19:49,129
content. So we've started out with audio files. You could do notes as well. We will be doing video,

1081
01:19:49,129 --> 01:19:51,629
potentially games, potentially courses.

1082
01:19:51,849 --> 01:19:54,529
We want to really kind of cover all forms of digital media eventually.

1083
01:19:55,589 --> 01:19:59,889
But yeah, we're creating what we think is the building blocks

1084
01:19:59,889 --> 01:20:01,709
of a new digital economy.

1085
01:20:02,549 --> 01:20:04,349
It's a new form of digital scarcity.

1086
01:20:04,469 --> 01:20:09,969
If you see Bitcoin as being money that you can own versus bank money,

1087
01:20:10,129 --> 01:20:12,329
which you don't own, the bank owns it.

1088
01:20:12,769 --> 01:20:18,909
If you see NOSTA as being an identity that you can own versus any,

1089
01:20:19,129 --> 01:20:23,869
Legacy social media where they own your identity has a row in their database.

1090
01:20:24,189 --> 01:20:25,849
They can delete it whenever they want.

1091
01:20:26,069 --> 01:20:27,529
They can censor you whenever they want.

1092
01:20:28,349 --> 01:20:29,849
Nostra, you own your identity.

1093
01:20:30,089 --> 01:20:34,229
If you don't like the way Nostra app is treating you, you can take your identity, move to another app,

1094
01:20:34,669 --> 01:20:39,329
and you're resistant to things like censorship, advertising,

1095
01:20:40,049 --> 01:20:44,609
all the things that we kind of don't like on the internet, but we feel powerless to stop

1096
01:20:44,609 --> 01:20:48,909
because the platforms have come to dominate the internet.

1097
01:20:49,129 --> 01:20:52,729
And I've written a book about this, which I published on FanFares.

1098
01:20:52,949 --> 01:20:56,989
And it explains how the internet has evolved the way it has,

1099
01:20:57,049 --> 01:20:59,969
how the platforms have come to dominate because of that dynamic,

1100
01:21:00,629 --> 01:21:03,769
because we didn't have a way to pay each other, peer to peer.

1101
01:21:04,369 --> 01:21:06,189
Still it. What's the book title?

1102
01:21:06,869 --> 01:21:08,029
It's called Digital Sovereignty.

1103
01:21:09,669 --> 01:21:13,809
So you can get it on the, if you go to fanfares.io, scroll down the page,

1104
01:21:13,969 --> 01:21:15,529
you'll see a link to the audio book there.

1105
01:21:15,529 --> 01:21:22,569
it gives you a whole load of detail about how we got to the problems of the platforms where they

1106
01:21:22,569 --> 01:21:27,449
control everything they effectively control we think because they are choosing what we see

1107
01:21:27,449 --> 01:21:31,609
you know they know what we think google knows what we think because we put it into their search

1108
01:21:31,609 --> 01:21:36,469
engine they store it all on the database they have a huge amount of control more than any of us

1109
01:21:36,469 --> 01:21:43,269
realize it all comes because there was no native currency on the internet because everything had to

1110
01:21:43,269 --> 01:21:49,189
be funded by advertising, which meant our data was the most valuable currency on the internet.

1111
01:21:49,429 --> 01:21:55,609
So they collected our data, they sold that to advertisers that could target us based on our

1112
01:21:55,609 --> 01:22:00,609
preferences, our interests, and they could get a better return on the advertising because they

1113
01:22:00,609 --> 01:22:05,509
had that data. So the way that we work back against this is by using Bitcoin Lightning as

1114
01:22:05,509 --> 01:22:11,149
a digital currency, by paying each other directly for the work that we do. And that's what we're

1115
01:22:11,149 --> 01:22:16,109
trying to enable with fanfares. So we're using the Nostra system, we're using Bitcoin Lightning,

1116
01:22:16,169 --> 01:22:21,589
we're building on top of it, we're enabling publishing, we're enabling monetization directly

1117
01:22:21,589 --> 01:22:26,709
between people. And a lot of people would pipe up at this point and say, well, if someone publishes

1118
01:22:26,709 --> 01:22:30,949
something behind a paywall, then someone's going to pay for it and then steal it and then put it

1119
01:22:30,949 --> 01:22:34,249
out there for everyone else to have for free because they believe that information should be

1120
01:22:34,249 --> 01:22:40,329
free. So yeah, this has always been the problem with digital content is that everything that is

1121
01:22:40,329 --> 01:22:44,809
digital is copyable. That's really kind of the core of what Bitcoin is as a currency. It's digital

1122
01:22:44,809 --> 01:22:52,409
scarcity. So the way we enforce that, we know we can't enforce copyright technically. Ultimately,

1123
01:22:52,409 --> 01:22:57,509
it will always be copyable and will always be distributable. The way we enforce that is through

1124
01:22:57,509 --> 01:23:03,889
an incentive system where we enable a creator to put a payment split in place. So if you buy a copy

1125
01:23:03,889 --> 01:23:08,949
of my book, you have a right to get a referral link, where if you share it and somebody buys it

1126
01:23:08,949 --> 01:23:10,389
out of the back of your recommendation,

1127
01:23:10,389 --> 01:23:13,329
then you can get a percentage of the money for yourself.

1128
01:23:13,329 --> 01:23:15,449
So you're acting as a promoter,

1129
01:23:15,449 --> 01:23:17,689
you're utilizing the network of people

1130
01:23:17,689 --> 01:23:19,889
that you've built over time,

1131
01:23:19,915 --> 01:23:24,175
that trust your judgment and you're making a recommendation to them of a book

1132
01:23:24,175 --> 01:23:25,415
that you believe has good value.

1133
01:23:26,555 --> 01:23:29,955
And you are kind of disciplined in a way with that system,

1134
01:23:29,955 --> 01:23:32,735
because if you recommend something that's rubbish just to get the payment

1135
01:23:32,735 --> 01:23:35,515
splits, then they're probably not going to listen to you again.

1136
01:23:35,515 --> 01:23:37,575
So you lose value within your network.

1137
01:23:38,355 --> 01:23:43,055
So the incentive of this system is to find content that's actually good and then

1138
01:23:43,055 --> 01:23:48,015
recommend that and earn from those good recommendations and build confidence in

1139
01:23:48,015 --> 01:23:49,135
your network over time.

1140
01:23:49,915 --> 01:23:56,455
But yeah, that system effectively means that no one's really motivated to go and give stuff away for free.

1141
01:23:57,235 --> 01:24:00,695
We might put it out there on a website for free, but why is anyone going to go there?

1142
01:24:00,915 --> 01:24:03,075
The only way people are going to find it is if you recommend it.

1143
01:24:03,595 --> 01:24:06,575
You're then utilizing your reputation, your network that you've built.

1144
01:24:07,255 --> 01:24:11,055
If you think it has value and you're recommending it, why not earn from the recommendation?

1145
01:24:11,295 --> 01:24:14,375
You're providing a service to the creator and to your audience.

1146
01:24:15,315 --> 01:24:18,175
That's really the part of the internet that isn't paid at the moment.

1147
01:24:18,175 --> 01:24:28,615
We all repost stuff. We all recommend stuff. But we don't get paid for that service. And that's the alternative discovery system to the algorithms that we currently rely upon.

1148
01:24:28,915 --> 01:24:35,635
And we know the algorithms are bad. We know they're optimized to capture our attention. We know that means they're promoting the most addictive stuff to us.

1149
01:24:36,175 --> 01:24:43,275
We know this is causing all kinds of problems with teenagers that use Instagram, TikTok and things like that. It's the algorithm. The incentive system exists there.

1150
01:24:43,275 --> 01:24:49,595
So this system that it's cool has the potential to replace the advertising funding system of the Internet.

1151
01:24:49,915 --> 01:24:53,815
It has the potential to replace the algorithm as the discovery system.

1152
01:24:54,555 --> 01:25:04,875
When you have a network of financially incentivized humans that are evaluating content and only recommending good stuff, you end up with a way of controlling the firehose of information.

1153
01:25:05,195 --> 01:25:09,135
There's a whole lot of content out there, more than any of us can ever consume in one lifetime.

1154
01:25:09,735 --> 01:25:11,915
What we really want is to be able to find the best stuff.

1155
01:25:11,915 --> 01:25:14,875
A lot of us do get recommendations from other people already.

1156
01:25:15,055 --> 01:25:18,695
We recommended good authors or good creators that we might follow.

1157
01:25:19,435 --> 01:25:22,095
But if there's people that can actually do that as a job,

1158
01:25:22,415 --> 01:25:26,355
because people can actually become professional curators and own from those recommendations,

1159
01:25:26,995 --> 01:25:29,495
then you end up with a really strong network of people.

1160
01:25:30,655 --> 01:25:32,415
Over time, they build a reputation.

1161
01:25:32,795 --> 01:25:34,515
People learn who they can trust.

1162
01:25:34,615 --> 01:25:36,715
They follow the people that they can trust through NOSTA.

1163
01:25:37,335 --> 01:25:41,215
Their feed on NOSTA is that discovery system.

1164
01:25:41,215 --> 01:25:46,335
it's not the algorithm that's trying to capture their attention it's a network of people that are

1165
01:25:46,335 --> 01:25:52,655
getting paid for their work it's a proof of work system uses bitcoin it uses nostr it utilizes the

1166
01:25:52,655 --> 01:26:00,415
fact that bitcoin enables low transaction uh low cost transactions which like i said that's the

1167
01:26:00,415 --> 01:26:05,455
bitcoin white paper that's what bitcoin really is the payment splits it's actually ben arke and

1168
01:26:05,455 --> 01:26:12,035
LNBits that pioneered that one, but we're utilizing that as part of FanFares to enable

1169
01:26:12,035 --> 01:26:14,735
that kind of incentivized copyright protection.

1170
01:26:15,775 --> 01:26:20,615
And we hope the network that kind of emerges from this, the emergent property of the system,

1171
01:26:21,275 --> 01:26:22,675
is a better discovery system.

1172
01:26:23,335 --> 01:26:24,755
So that's what I talk about in the book.

1173
01:26:24,995 --> 01:26:26,335
It costs 8,000 sats.

1174
01:26:27,135 --> 01:26:29,315
There is a referral opportunity there.

1175
01:26:29,395 --> 01:26:32,875
If you like the book, if you've got a following, why not make some money by recommending it

1176
01:26:32,875 --> 01:26:33,435
to other people?

1177
01:26:33,435 --> 01:26:35,875
but obviously do listen to the book first.

1178
01:26:36,195 --> 01:26:37,035
I've read it myself.

1179
01:26:37,735 --> 01:26:39,195
It took me a huge amount of time

1180
01:26:39,195 --> 01:26:41,415
and a lot of pay to write it, I have to say.

1181
01:26:41,875 --> 01:26:42,575
Definitely not.

1182
01:26:42,755 --> 01:26:44,955
I'm a numbers person, not a words person,

1183
01:26:45,035 --> 01:26:47,035
but I went to a great deal of effort

1184
01:26:47,035 --> 01:26:50,415
to make something that I thought transmitted the message

1185
01:26:50,415 --> 01:26:53,315
about what we can do with Bitcoin in Nostra,

1186
01:26:53,515 --> 01:26:55,335
what we think we can achieve with FanFares

1187
01:26:55,335 --> 01:26:58,815
as a system that facilitates that new media economy.

1188
01:26:59,175 --> 01:27:00,715
So thank you very much

1189
01:27:00,715 --> 01:27:02,455
for purchasing a copy of the book yourself.

1190
01:27:02,455 --> 01:27:10,595
I do appreciate that. And I hope that over time, you know, people get the book, they recommend it and that the word can spread.

1191
01:27:10,815 --> 01:27:17,035
And that will encourage people to upload their own content and fanfares to offer the payment splits.

1192
01:27:17,375 --> 01:27:25,935
And we might see that network of curators emerge that replace the unfortunate nature of the Internet that we've kind of sleepwalked into.

1193
01:27:26,655 --> 01:27:32,295
I love the fact Bitcoin touches something and it turns the whole thing upside down.

1194
01:27:32,455 --> 01:27:55,755
And to what you've been saying here, we have been socially engineered so bad by, like, no proof of work at all in the background is, you know, stealing our data, stealing everything that we, you know, the key term searches that we're using, our date of birth, you know, whatever we're putting in, that has been monetized by.

1195
01:27:55,755 --> 01:28:02,775
And then the algorithms are tweaked to show us whatever it is they think we're interested in at that certain time.

1196
01:28:02,935 --> 01:28:13,055
We've been socially engineered, whereas what you've just described, you become the engineer and you build your social network around that.

1197
01:28:13,235 --> 01:28:15,615
But it's your proof of work that's there.

1198
01:28:17,335 --> 01:28:24,575
We both read or listened to David Rogers Webb, and we've been talking about him on this podcast.

1199
01:28:24,575 --> 01:28:37,355
So this is a perfect example. You and I are both willing to stake our reputations on that guy's work. But wouldn't it be great if he earned some sats on the back of that recommendation?

1200
01:28:38,395 --> 01:28:47,255
Another book here I'm reading right now, A New Science of Heaven by Robert Temple. Nothing to do with Bitcoin, but my goodness, this book has been blowing my mind.

1201
01:28:47,255 --> 01:29:07,935
I would happily recommend that. So once you start building up this social kind of network, it's true, it's a real social network, not the social networks we've been bombarded with. This redefines it from what I can hear from what you're saying.

1202
01:29:07,935 --> 01:29:13,315
yeah i think i mean it's you've got to bear in mind that no one set out to build the kind of

1203
01:29:13,315 --> 01:29:18,455
social media companies that we have now that they've evolved through the dynamics of the system

1204
01:29:18,455 --> 01:29:22,255
you know facebook started out everything was free you know they had to monetize at some point the

1205
01:29:22,255 --> 01:29:26,435
only way you could do it was for advertising you know so it's kind of like they've been at the

1206
01:29:26,435 --> 01:29:31,935
mercy of the system they have to work with you know bitcoin offers an alternative path but it

1207
01:29:31,935 --> 01:29:37,015
does require that you know we embrace it you know that that means we've got to experiment with

1208
01:29:37,015 --> 01:29:42,495
systems like fanfares we've got to talk about it to other people so you know that's that's how we

1209
01:29:42,495 --> 01:29:49,695
win you know that's how we as as the plebs are the real network you know we we we win by you know

1210
01:29:49,695 --> 01:29:53,375
experimenting with these tools by making them better you know if you think something's wrong

1211
01:29:53,375 --> 01:29:58,535
with our system message us you know we're on nostra fanfares you can find our handle there

1212
01:29:58,535 --> 01:30:03,995
and you can message us and make suggestions you know we we want to hear how we can make it better

1213
01:30:03,995 --> 01:30:06,155
so that it's better, more usable for people.

1214
01:30:06,895 --> 01:30:09,855
And I've had, I get people all the time,

1215
01:30:09,935 --> 01:30:11,175
I want to write a Bitcoin book,

1216
01:30:11,235 --> 01:30:12,635
or I've just written a Bitcoin book,

1217
01:30:12,715 --> 01:30:13,855
what's the best way to publish?

1218
01:30:14,095 --> 01:30:15,715
And I've pushed a few people your way.

1219
01:30:15,815 --> 01:30:17,355
I'm just like, just go straight to FanFest.

1220
01:30:17,455 --> 01:30:18,595
Now, AJ and her poetry.

1221
01:30:19,955 --> 01:30:23,515
So when she learned about like,

1222
01:30:23,595 --> 01:30:25,095
and had that chat with you,

1223
01:30:25,215 --> 01:30:26,635
she was just ecstatic.

1224
01:30:26,935 --> 01:30:44,863
Like this is the only place I want to ever share my work and put it out there you know or what or you self on kindle direct publishing or you you you sell your soul to like an agent or a publishing house or something it

1225
01:30:44,863 --> 01:30:50,943
not good yeah aj was the perfect introduction there it was so encouraging to have somebody

1226
01:30:50,943 --> 01:30:54,283
that really kind of got what we were doing you know she bought a copy of the book she was listening

1227
01:30:54,283 --> 01:31:00,643
to it she really understood and it was you know as as a public as a writer herself you know with

1228
01:31:00,643 --> 01:31:06,483
the poems that she wanted to put out there it was exactly the right kind of person and that would be

1229
01:31:06,483 --> 01:31:12,403
interested in in in this system but it really is a reality that a lot of creators are almost in a

1230
01:31:12,403 --> 01:31:17,503
form of slavery you know with what they have right now you know and it's it's a weird thing where

1231
01:31:17,503 --> 01:31:22,743
they're forced to give their work away for free um as you said the data is the currency but it's

1232
01:31:22,743 --> 01:31:28,143
also our time and our attention is our is the currency as well that's what the the algorithm

1233
01:31:28,143 --> 01:31:33,903
is designed to capture and you know it's kind of those are the most important things that we have

1234
01:31:33,903 --> 01:31:40,303
our time and our attention you know we have limited time on this planet and the our ability

1235
01:31:40,303 --> 01:31:45,123
to focus on something is what enables us to get things done to make things to make a difference so

1236
01:31:45,123 --> 01:31:50,183
if those things are being robbed from us by clever algorithms that know how to capture our attention

1237
01:31:50,183 --> 01:31:53,183
and tell him then, you know, we are being disenfranchised

1238
01:31:53,943 --> 01:31:55,143
in some way or another.

1239
01:31:55,723 --> 01:31:58,163
The weird thing is in order to be a successful creator,

1240
01:31:58,523 --> 01:32:00,303
to some extent you have to learn how to do that.

1241
01:32:00,683 --> 01:32:02,363
You know, if you want your YouTube videos

1242
01:32:02,363 --> 01:32:03,623
to be at the top of the algorithm,

1243
01:32:04,263 --> 01:32:06,403
you've got to make a video that captures people's time

1244
01:32:06,403 --> 01:32:06,903
and attention.

1245
01:32:07,503 --> 01:32:10,003
You need an open mouth thumbnail, Simon.

1246
01:32:11,183 --> 01:32:11,963
That's all you need.

1247
01:32:12,403 --> 01:32:13,483
Open mouth thumbnails.

1248
01:32:13,623 --> 01:32:14,163
That's all you need.

1249
01:32:14,303 --> 01:32:15,003
That's the clickbait.

1250
01:32:15,483 --> 01:32:15,843
Yeah.

1251
01:32:15,843 --> 01:32:25,043
it's it's the worst it's if it's a picture of somebody famous isn't really on the video at all

1252
01:32:25,043 --> 01:32:31,143
it's so much the better you know i mean there's loads of ai stuff now on on youtube you know they

1253
01:32:31,143 --> 01:32:35,923
just take somebody's content and rehash it into ai and you know that person that created it is

1254
01:32:35,923 --> 01:32:39,623
earning nothing and not that they were earning that much before anyway from the youtube payment

1255
01:32:39,623 --> 01:32:44,483
splits but yeah it's it's a race to the bottom with a lot of this stuff now it really is like

1256
01:32:44,483 --> 01:32:51,083
You know, I don't know where it ends, but I personally believe that we have the potential for an alternative.

1257
01:32:51,783 --> 01:32:54,923
We're very early days with fanfares. It's going to take a while to get traction.

1258
01:32:55,583 --> 01:32:58,523
But, you know, our opportunity is with the people.

1259
01:32:58,683 --> 01:33:04,323
You know, we're an open source project. We're not charging any payment specs right now.

1260
01:33:04,483 --> 01:33:07,543
At some point we will charge for hosting. And at the moment, hosting is free.

1261
01:33:08,323 --> 01:33:13,063
Like I say, we're going to roll out all kinds of forms of digital media so that everyone can publish.

1262
01:33:13,063 --> 01:33:18,543
but yeah it's you know it takes a bit of work like everything else and that's worth something

1263
01:33:18,543 --> 01:33:22,383
it takes a bit of work to figure it out you've got to experiment you're going to put yourself

1264
01:33:22,383 --> 01:33:26,003
out there and say i'm going to charge for this i'm not going to let people see it until they

1265
01:33:26,003 --> 01:33:30,263
actually pay which a lot of people won't like originally because they've all been conditioned

1266
01:33:30,263 --> 01:33:34,043
by the free system that isn't really free because it's capturing their time and their attention

1267
01:33:34,043 --> 01:33:39,123
their data we all know it deep down we know it's not really free but we kind of like it that way so

1268
01:33:39,123 --> 01:33:45,203
So it's kind of playing to our weakest parts of our psyche.

1269
01:33:45,903 --> 01:33:48,823
And we know that's not good for us, but it is what it is.

1270
01:33:49,063 --> 01:33:51,663
So, yeah, it's something that I'm building.

1271
01:33:51,763 --> 01:33:52,923
I'm going to continue to build.

1272
01:33:53,403 --> 01:33:55,003
You know, I hope it works.

1273
01:33:55,003 --> 01:34:00,343
You know, I hope this is the system that really demonstrates the utility of Bitcoin,

1274
01:34:00,543 --> 01:34:02,723
because that's where it works at the core.

1275
01:34:02,963 --> 01:34:08,883
It's only possible with Bitcoin as a currency and with NOSTA as a protocol.

1276
01:34:09,123 --> 01:34:13,603
you know it really is that was an absolute gift to us that we didn't imagine would come our way but

1277
01:34:14,323 --> 01:34:20,323
yeah the guys that created that early days they they have really kind of given something to the

1278
01:34:20,323 --> 01:34:25,683
world and um yeah again they're not really making any money out of it that's an open source project

1279
01:34:25,683 --> 01:34:31,683
as well and but it's taking time to get off the ground nostr you know it's still quite niche but

1280
01:34:31,683 --> 01:34:36,483
i personally think it will replace twitter over time i think nostr is to digital media what

1281
01:34:36,483 --> 01:34:50,903
Bitcoin is to money, where if you look at banks that own your money on their centralized databases within their database, Bitcoin, you have control of your money and it's distributed across a network.

1282
01:34:51,323 --> 01:34:56,903
With Twitter, your data is on their centralized server. They control it. You don't.

1283
01:34:57,143 --> 01:35:01,263
With Nostra, your data is on a distributed network and you control it with your private key.

1284
01:35:01,823 --> 01:35:06,163
So it's very synonymous between the two. It makes total sense to work together.

1285
01:35:06,483 --> 01:35:12,903
familiar once Bitcoin Lightning was enabled as the currency on NOSDA to me that was you know that

1286
01:35:12,903 --> 01:35:17,743
was that this is the solution you know this is where we're going what we hope we can do at FanFares

1287
01:35:17,743 --> 01:35:23,363
is improve the monetization of creators on NOSDA by enabling that digital scarcity by enabling

1288
01:35:23,363 --> 01:35:29,203
almost a sort of game theory you know where where if you give people the chance to charge for things

1289
01:35:29,203 --> 01:35:33,663
over time they're going to figure out how to distribute some parts for free and then promote

1290
01:35:33,663 --> 01:35:38,803
the stuff that's that's uh encrypted and lead people on to buy that stuff and people are already

1291
01:35:38,803 --> 01:35:43,743
doing this with sub stack and with patreon you know what they do part of a podcast dominic frisbee

1292
01:35:43,743 --> 01:35:47,343
actually does that quite well he has these little podcasts he puts out in his email and he says if

1293
01:35:47,343 --> 01:35:51,803
you want the rest of this you've got to subscribe but of course subscribing is a very high hurdle

1294
01:35:51,803 --> 01:35:55,543
you know you've got to like get your credit card out put all your details in and give away your

1295
01:35:55,543 --> 01:36:00,163
name and address commit to monthly payments of the product that you might not want to use because

1296
01:36:00,163 --> 01:36:01,883
Maybe it was just that one thing that you wanted.

1297
01:36:02,543 --> 01:36:06,163
If you had a button where you could connect with your Lightning wallet

1298
01:36:06,163 --> 01:36:10,863
and make a simple one-off payment, no identity, no bother, no commitment,

1299
01:36:11,283 --> 01:36:12,883
that's a much lower hurdle.

1300
01:36:13,403 --> 01:36:17,323
So those people that might not have paid with a subscription

1301
01:36:17,323 --> 01:36:19,763
might actually pay with Bitcoin Lightning.

1302
01:36:20,043 --> 01:36:21,643
So particularly if you're a Bitcoin creator,

1303
01:36:21,783 --> 01:36:24,523
your audience has already got the money to pay,

1304
01:36:24,823 --> 01:36:28,663
and they're more likely to pay if you're actually utilizing fanfares

1305
01:36:28,663 --> 01:36:31,763
than if you're using something like Substack and Patreon,

1306
01:36:32,303 --> 01:36:34,063
which are, of course, still platforms.

1307
01:36:34,263 --> 01:36:38,343
They may, at the moment, look freer than YouTube does,

1308
01:36:38,483 --> 01:36:40,903
but at the beginning, YouTube looked quite free, didn't it?

1309
01:36:40,903 --> 01:36:43,703
And then it slowly closed the net onto people

1310
01:36:43,703 --> 01:36:45,203
and made it more and more difficult.

1311
01:36:45,483 --> 01:36:47,263
But with all of these platforms,

1312
01:36:47,423 --> 01:36:49,143
you don't own the connection with your audience.

1313
01:36:49,423 --> 01:36:50,983
They own that connection.

1314
01:36:51,243 --> 01:36:54,143
You can't leave a platform without a huge cost.

1315
01:36:54,723 --> 01:36:57,023
With Doster, you don't just own your identity,

1316
01:36:57,183 --> 01:36:58,463
you own your connection with your audience.

1317
01:36:58,663 --> 01:37:03,743
So you've got peer-to-peer monetization, you've got self-sovereign identity, you've got a network.

1318
01:37:04,583 --> 01:37:09,623
And that's, you know, for all of their faults, the platforms have demonstrated what we want on the internet.

1319
01:37:09,843 --> 01:37:11,063
We want to have our own identity.

1320
01:37:11,623 --> 01:37:13,383
We want to be able to publish for ourselves.

1321
01:37:14,023 --> 01:37:16,743
We want to be able to build a network of people that we publish to.

1322
01:37:17,583 --> 01:37:19,203
And the platforms have enabled that.

1323
01:37:19,643 --> 01:37:24,803
It's just unfortunate that the business model has meant that they own all of that.

1324
01:37:24,803 --> 01:37:29,343
and then monetization means that they're kind of filtering

1325
01:37:29,343 --> 01:37:33,343
and selecting content that's probably the worst possible thing for us.

1326
01:37:33,343 --> 01:37:36,023
It's the stuff that's addictive, that's the short attention span.

1327
01:37:36,023 --> 01:37:38,543
It's not the good value stuff that we might really want

1328
01:37:38,543 --> 01:37:41,963
if we actually have the chance to think about it.

1329
01:37:41,963 --> 01:37:56,691
So if you think about the way that NOSTA works you only going to zap somebody on the tipping model if you think it actually good value So really kind of looking at what at the top of the NOSTA algorithms

1330
01:37:56,691 --> 01:37:59,431
is going to be better than what's on the top of a Twitter algorithm.

1331
01:38:00,731 --> 01:38:04,371
Then we take it a step further where the network is only going to recommend

1332
01:38:04,371 --> 01:38:06,491
something if they believe it's good value,

1333
01:38:06,811 --> 01:38:09,291
because they're going to ask somebody else to pay for it,

1334
01:38:09,451 --> 01:38:11,291
and they might share a video for free on Twitter.

1335
01:38:11,291 --> 01:38:16,551
and if it turns out to be rubbish then nothing's really lost you know it's like a short period of

1336
01:38:16,551 --> 01:38:21,191
your time but if you share something on fanfets and somebody trusts you enough to pay for it and

1337
01:38:21,191 --> 01:38:24,971
it turns out to be rubbish or different to what you said it was or just you know misinformation

1338
01:38:24,971 --> 01:38:31,491
of some kind your reputation will take a hit they might not trust you again you know you've lost

1339
01:38:31,491 --> 01:38:37,291
value in your network and that's that's really what we build in nostril over time we have the

1340
01:38:37,291 --> 01:38:43,051
ability to curate our own experience by doing so we can feed into the experience of other people

1341
01:38:43,051 --> 01:38:48,611
through the web of trust the apps that are building our nostril kind of tapping into to your

1342
01:38:48,611 --> 01:38:53,551
network and saying okay if your friends like this then you might like this as well if your friends

1343
01:38:53,551 --> 01:38:57,551
have been willing to pay for this then you might be willing to pay for this as well that's how we

1344
01:38:57,551 --> 01:39:04,171
have a a kind of decentralized discovery system over time and it's the incentive system is entirely

1345
01:39:04,171 --> 01:39:08,531
different it's optimizing for value rather than engagement that means we're going to have a better

1346
01:39:08,531 --> 01:39:15,791
quality stream of content it's not going to be addictive or as addictive as as the traditional

1347
01:39:15,791 --> 01:39:22,011
social media is creators will get paid more curators will get paid so people that are

1348
01:39:22,011 --> 01:39:27,571
influencers right now quite often they're doing a lot of reposting for free that's how they build

1349
01:39:27,571 --> 01:39:33,131
the network and then they're having to monetize through specific ads where they're getting sponsors

1350
01:39:33,131 --> 01:39:38,511
what they might be able to do with this system is to actually get paid for the reposts using our

1351
01:39:38,511 --> 01:39:44,091
payment split model with with fanfares so there's a whole new opportunity for creators to earn more

1352
01:39:44,091 --> 01:39:49,831
money directly from their audience the curator network can become a whole new class of professional

1353
01:39:49,831 --> 01:39:55,571
that are really good at figuring out what has good value they spend their time evaluating content

1354
01:39:55,571 --> 01:40:00,551
they know who might appreciate it they direct it specifically towards those groups and make that

1355
01:40:00,551 --> 01:40:05,351
recommendation and are judged on their recommendation. And then you've got the audience

1356
01:40:05,351 --> 01:40:10,391
that just basically get better content. Maybe they're going to pay for it with their Bitcoin

1357
01:40:10,391 --> 01:40:16,051
rather than with their time and their attention and their data, but they're going to get a better

1358
01:40:16,051 --> 01:40:20,631
product as a result of it. They're going to get a better quality outcome and that is worth paying

1359
01:40:20,631 --> 01:40:26,511
for. That is worth parting with your Bitcoin for, Michael Saylor. You might want to spend some of

1360
01:40:26,511 --> 01:40:30,351
your Bitcoin in order to get a better quality feed of digital media on the internet.

1361
01:40:30,551 --> 01:40:31,831
Because that's what Bitcoin really is.

1362
01:40:31,911 --> 01:40:36,391
It's a currency that can be used purely on the internet.

1363
01:40:36,651 --> 01:40:40,391
You know, the creators can earn Bitcoin directly from their audience.

1364
01:40:40,891 --> 01:40:42,091
They could be anywhere in the world.

1365
01:40:42,511 --> 01:40:45,731
You know, they don't need to have feet on the ground anywhere.

1366
01:40:45,951 --> 01:40:47,971
You know, their business is entirely virtual.

1367
01:40:48,691 --> 01:40:49,991
The work is the input.

1368
01:40:50,451 --> 01:40:51,591
They're receiving Bitcoin.

1369
01:40:52,511 --> 01:40:55,771
They could trade that locally for cash, wherever they are.

1370
01:40:56,571 --> 01:41:00,151
They could live a life of absolute freedom using Bitcoin.

1371
01:41:00,551 --> 01:41:02,811
And that's what we all talk about.

1372
01:41:03,371 --> 01:41:15,551
I hope that what we're doing with FanFares brings us closer to the actual means of making Bitcoin a currency and turning it into something that can actually fix the world.

1373
01:41:16,911 --> 01:41:17,911
Me too, mate.

1374
01:41:18,271 --> 01:41:19,271
And well done.

1375
01:41:19,671 --> 01:41:20,151
Congratulations.

1376
01:41:20,871 --> 01:41:25,091
Well done for, like, keep pushing it because I know you've been working on it for a long time.

1377
01:41:26,031 --> 01:41:28,671
And great to see, like, the latest iteration.

1378
01:41:28,671 --> 01:41:33,351
and hopefully this podcast will alert people to it again

1379
01:41:33,351 --> 01:41:35,351
and get them back over and having a look.

1380
01:41:35,471 --> 01:41:36,991
So if anybody wants to reach out,

1381
01:41:37,151 --> 01:41:38,651
where's the best place to reach you?

1382
01:41:38,771 --> 01:41:39,791
On Nostra, I assume?

1383
01:41:40,411 --> 01:41:43,191
Yeah, I'm shortfiat on Nostra

1384
01:41:43,191 --> 01:41:45,511
or you can message us at fanfares on Nostra.

1385
01:41:46,791 --> 01:41:48,751
Yeah, that's the best place to get me.

1386
01:41:49,011 --> 01:41:50,491
I'm completely off of Twitter now

1387
01:41:50,491 --> 01:41:52,491
and I got three hours a day back

1388
01:41:52,491 --> 01:41:54,131
by deleting my Twitter account.

1389
01:41:56,251 --> 01:41:58,391
Nostra, I seem to be on there about 10 minutes a day

1390
01:41:58,391 --> 01:42:03,831
on average and unless i get a post that seems to go particularly well then i can check it quite a

1391
01:42:03,831 --> 01:42:09,951
lot to see how well it's going but but mostly it's it's not that addictive um it seems to be just

1392
01:42:09,951 --> 01:42:14,751
like i say it's it's optimizing for value and it's a much better place to be the whole feeling of

1393
01:42:14,751 --> 01:42:20,391
notster is a much better experience it's not the scrolling it's it's more kind of educational

1394
01:42:20,391 --> 01:42:26,091
value sharing and uh yeah i think over time it's going to win you know it's going to take a while

1395
01:42:26,091 --> 01:42:35,111
When I look at the way that we've built Fanfares over the last three and a half years, it's really taken a while to deliver what we wanted.

1396
01:42:35,331 --> 01:42:36,111
The team are great.

1397
01:42:36,211 --> 01:42:37,331
They're working really hard.

1398
01:42:37,991 --> 01:42:40,251
The technical challenges are significant.

1399
01:42:40,551 --> 01:42:41,751
We have a product that works.

1400
01:42:42,031 --> 01:42:43,251
We've delivered a very good product.

1401
01:42:43,411 --> 01:42:44,011
We're building on it.

1402
01:42:44,051 --> 01:42:44,671
We're making it better.

1403
01:42:45,491 --> 01:42:47,651
Even bigger challenge is the social layer.

1404
01:42:47,891 --> 01:42:50,091
How do we get people to try this product?

1405
01:42:50,251 --> 01:42:51,911
How do we get people to talk about this product?

1406
01:42:52,751 --> 01:42:54,831
And that's what we're just starting out on now.

1407
01:42:54,831 --> 01:42:59,251
So my book is essentially the first part of that.

1408
01:42:59,831 --> 01:43:02,891
If we can get creators to experiment with the product,

1409
01:43:03,491 --> 01:43:06,731
even if they're charging a very small fee for their work,

1410
01:43:06,791 --> 01:43:08,011
just to prove the tech.

1411
01:43:08,271 --> 01:43:11,631
And that's a step forward, just get people used to doing it,

1412
01:43:11,691 --> 01:43:13,291
get people connecting with their Lightning wallet,

1413
01:43:14,051 --> 01:43:16,831
making a payment, experimenting with reposting,

1414
01:43:17,751 --> 01:43:18,891
earning a small amount of money.

1415
01:43:19,331 --> 01:43:21,071
Let's just test the tech to begin with.

1416
01:43:21,071 --> 01:43:32,191
And over time, I just believe we're going to have that amazing concentration of quality that's going to come out of it just because the financial incentives enable that.

1417
01:43:32,391 --> 01:43:34,531
So it's going to take time to build it.

1418
01:43:34,871 --> 01:43:37,891
But it's all of us that make it work, basically.

1419
01:43:38,051 --> 01:43:44,511
Over time, if we adopt the system, if we experiment with it, if we talk about it, that's where we win.

1420
01:43:44,651 --> 01:43:45,591
But it's going to take a while.

1421
01:43:45,811 --> 01:43:48,731
You know, I'm locked down the next 10 years of my calendar for this one.

1422
01:43:48,731 --> 01:43:52,731
So it's not going to be easy.

1423
01:43:53,671 --> 01:43:54,111
Right.

1424
01:43:54,251 --> 01:43:57,851
So I'm sure I did ask you this question last time.

1425
01:43:57,931 --> 01:44:00,271
I had no recollection of your answer,

1426
01:44:00,271 --> 01:44:04,511
but if you had one last orange pill left to give to somebody,

1427
01:44:04,631 --> 01:44:06,211
who would you give it to and why?

1428
01:44:07,531 --> 01:44:07,971
Okay.

1429
01:44:08,171 --> 01:44:09,491
Can I change the question?

1430
01:44:10,071 --> 01:44:10,291
Yeah.

1431
01:44:10,651 --> 01:44:13,451
If I had one last Fanfares pill, who would I give it to?

1432
01:44:14,111 --> 01:44:14,751
Fanfares pill.

1433
01:44:14,871 --> 01:44:15,191
All right.

1434
01:44:15,911 --> 01:44:17,411
Sorry to mess with your question.

1435
01:44:17,411 --> 01:44:18,671
No, no, no.

1436
01:44:18,731 --> 01:44:19,091
No problem.

1437
01:44:19,671 --> 01:44:23,271
The things I've heard Jack Dorsey say about the way the algorithm works

1438
01:44:23,271 --> 01:44:25,371
and the way that it's damaging our free will,

1439
01:44:26,011 --> 01:44:28,951
he actually sat down and had a look at Fanfares

1440
01:44:28,951 --> 01:44:30,451
and maybe listened to my audio book.

1441
01:44:30,531 --> 01:44:33,031
I think we'd have a real advocate of the system there

1442
01:44:33,031 --> 01:44:37,271
because it's the kind of thing that he's not the only person

1443
01:44:37,271 --> 01:44:38,751
that's talked about that kind of thing,

1444
01:44:38,811 --> 01:44:41,191
but obviously he's high profile within the Bitcoin Noster world.

1445
01:44:41,191 --> 01:44:45,071
So if I had a Fanfares pill, whatever color that would be,

1446
01:44:45,251 --> 01:44:47,171
then I'd give it to Jack Dorsey

1447
01:44:47,171 --> 01:44:51,111
because I think he's been a great force for good within the Nostra community

1448
01:44:51,111 --> 01:44:53,731
with the kind of the boost that he gave at the beginning there,

1449
01:44:54,871 --> 01:45:08,318
the kind of Nostra events that he been organising and funding there So good for him If we can get any kind of opportunity for him to have a look at what we doing I think he going to be a great advocate for the product Excellent

1450
01:45:08,558 --> 01:45:08,758
Right.

1451
01:45:08,898 --> 01:45:10,178
Plebs, you heard Simon.

1452
01:45:10,558 --> 01:45:11,378
Get hold of Jack.

1453
01:45:11,578 --> 01:45:12,619
Get this in front of him.

1454
01:45:12,838 --> 01:45:14,359
Let's get this thing moving.

1455
01:45:14,499 --> 01:45:15,318
Grassroots efforts.

1456
01:45:16,958 --> 01:45:19,598
This is how we use our network.

1457
01:45:20,138 --> 01:45:24,098
This is how we reach the people that we seek to reach.

1458
01:45:25,038 --> 01:45:27,778
And that's now it's out there.

1459
01:45:28,438 --> 01:45:31,418
Jack Dorsey, whoever's listening, let's get connected.

1460
01:45:31,938 --> 01:45:32,798
I'll do my best.

1461
01:45:33,239 --> 01:45:36,178
I don't have a direct link, unfortunately.

1462
01:45:37,158 --> 01:45:39,499
Yeah, I'm sure he gets a lot of inbound, no doubt.

1463
01:45:40,778 --> 01:45:41,678
I'm sure he does.

1464
01:45:41,938 --> 01:45:43,698
But it is a network, isn't it?

1465
01:45:44,058 --> 01:45:44,658
What is it?

1466
01:45:44,718 --> 01:45:46,058
Six degrees of separation.

1467
01:45:46,298 --> 01:45:47,359
We know everyone in the world, don't we?

1468
01:45:47,359 --> 01:45:50,739
So I'm sure within the Bitcoin Nostra network, it's a lot closer than that.

1469
01:45:51,058 --> 01:45:51,938
Yes, exactly.

1470
01:45:52,479 --> 01:45:53,838
Well, thank you for coming on, mate.

1471
01:45:53,838 --> 01:45:57,499
And talking us through what's going on with FanFares,

1472
01:45:57,499 --> 01:45:59,918
your worries around the Bitcoin treasury companies

1473
01:45:59,918 --> 01:46:02,438
and especially the loans and the leverage.

1474
01:46:02,898 --> 01:46:04,239
And let's just remember,

1475
01:46:04,398 --> 01:46:06,658
please everybody stay humble,

1476
01:46:06,938 --> 01:46:07,278
stack,

1477
01:46:07,538 --> 01:46:07,938
sets,

1478
01:46:08,198 --> 01:46:08,918
self-custody.

1479
01:46:09,119 --> 01:46:11,178
Your Bitcoin is literally that easy.

1480
01:46:11,638 --> 01:46:11,918
Like this,

1481
01:46:12,498 --> 01:46:15,558
it sounds hard to do.

1482
01:46:15,879 --> 01:46:16,218
I mean,

1483
01:46:16,239 --> 01:46:19,178
it is hard to do if the price is ripping in one way or the other,

1484
01:46:19,318 --> 01:46:20,758
but if you just sit on your hands,

1485
01:46:21,119 --> 01:46:21,578
stack,

1486
01:46:22,178 --> 01:46:23,098
take self-custody,

1487
01:46:23,458 --> 01:46:26,058
you will be in a different position from 10 years from now.

1488
01:46:26,058 --> 01:46:28,119
exactly right

1489
01:46:28,119 --> 01:46:29,359
you've always got that message there

1490
01:46:29,359 --> 01:46:30,398
and it's the call

1491
01:46:30,398 --> 01:46:31,698
that is what it really is

1492
01:46:31,698 --> 01:46:31,938
yeah

1493
01:46:31,938 --> 01:46:32,698
self-custody

1494
01:46:32,698 --> 01:46:33,278
stacks out

1495
01:46:33,278 --> 01:46:34,638
love it

1496
01:46:34,638 --> 01:46:35,598
thanks for coming on Simon

1497
01:46:35,598 --> 01:46:37,058
and we'll catch you on the next show

1498
01:46:37,058 --> 01:46:38,338
thank you

1499
01:46:38,338 --> 01:46:41,278
well there you go guys

1500
01:46:41,278 --> 01:46:42,658
thank you so much for listening

1501
01:46:42,658 --> 01:46:43,658
thank you again Simon

1502
01:46:43,658 --> 01:46:44,338
for coming on

1503
01:46:44,338 --> 01:46:45,739
looking forward to seeing you

1504
01:46:45,739 --> 01:46:46,458
in person

1505
01:46:46,458 --> 01:46:47,678
in Manchester

1506
01:46:47,678 --> 01:46:49,359
Simon's going to be talking there

1507
01:46:49,359 --> 01:46:50,818
at the Nostashire Day

1508
01:46:50,818 --> 01:46:51,638
the event

1509
01:46:51,638 --> 01:46:52,918
it's a three day event

1510
01:46:52,918 --> 01:46:54,218
so you've got Nostashire on Friday

1511
01:46:54,218 --> 01:46:55,379
and then Bitcoin

1512
01:46:55,379 --> 01:46:57,359
all kinds of Bitcoin stuff

1513
01:46:57,359 --> 01:46:59,398
panels, talks, keynotes

1514
01:46:59,398 --> 01:47:01,438
gaming zones

1515
01:47:01,438 --> 01:47:02,538
kids zones

1516
01:47:02,538 --> 01:47:04,558
there's going to be a music event

1517
01:47:04,558 --> 01:47:07,318
on the Saturday night I believe

1518
01:47:07,318 --> 01:47:09,438
go back one episode and listen

1519
01:47:09,438 --> 01:47:10,558
to my

1520
01:47:10,558 --> 01:47:13,058
interview with Nat Cole

1521
01:47:13,058 --> 01:47:15,298
and Aaron Dorn who are organizing that

1522
01:47:15,298 --> 01:47:17,578
the NME, the new music

1523
01:47:17,578 --> 01:47:19,338
economy, all built

1524
01:47:19,338 --> 01:47:21,558
on Bitcoin, all artists will be paid

1525
01:47:21,558 --> 01:47:22,218
in Bitcoin

1526
01:47:22,218 --> 01:47:25,258
this is awesome and what

1527
01:47:25,258 --> 01:47:29,979
What Simon's doing with Fanfares is really, really cool as well.

1528
01:47:30,218 --> 01:47:32,338
And I've seen this grow from the very beginning.

1529
01:47:32,538 --> 01:47:37,958
I remember uploading podcasts to Fanfares way back in the day when he first started this.

1530
01:47:38,379 --> 01:47:44,398
But now this kind of pivot to the idea of audiobooks I think is a great one.

1531
01:47:46,058 --> 01:47:51,838
And like we discussed here, a friend of ours, AJ, is going to start releasing poetry on there.

1532
01:47:51,838 --> 01:47:54,359
I've put him in touch with another author

1533
01:47:54,359 --> 01:47:59,058
that really likes the idea of getting their work up on Fanfares as well

1534
01:47:59,058 --> 01:48:00,879
so you don't

1535
01:48:00,879 --> 01:48:03,758
if you've got any of you listening now

1536
01:48:03,758 --> 01:48:05,938
if you've got an article, if you've got a short story

1537
01:48:05,938 --> 01:48:08,318
if you've got anything that you want to get published

1538
01:48:08,318 --> 01:48:10,119
anything, just reach out to Simon

1539
01:48:10,119 --> 01:48:12,278
because Fanfares is the place for you

1540
01:48:12,278 --> 01:48:14,658
to just get this happening

1541
01:48:14,658 --> 01:48:15,778
get this out there

1542
01:48:15,778 --> 01:48:17,518
get it off your chest

1543
01:48:17,518 --> 01:48:20,578
you don't need to now go start looking for a publisher

1544
01:48:20,578 --> 01:48:26,758
or setting up a sub stack or a medium or whatever people used to do.

1545
01:48:27,258 --> 01:48:28,518
This is the new economy.

1546
01:48:29,158 --> 01:48:30,958
And it's built. It's ready.

1547
01:48:31,239 --> 01:48:32,198
It just needs testing.

1548
01:48:32,418 --> 01:48:34,479
It just needs us leaning into it.

1549
01:48:34,739 --> 01:48:36,318
The Bitcoiners on the ground.

1550
01:48:37,298 --> 01:48:38,778
Get out there and meet other Bitcoiners.

1551
01:48:39,158 --> 01:48:40,918
A huge shill for Club Orange.

1552
01:48:41,578 --> 01:48:43,898
They rebranded from Orange Pill app.

1553
01:48:44,158 --> 01:48:46,879
Mateo's got the word pill out the title.

1554
01:48:47,258 --> 01:48:49,418
That was bugging him a lot.

1555
01:48:49,418 --> 01:48:55,698
So Club Orange is now the place that you can go and find all your local events.

1556
01:48:56,018 --> 01:48:57,698
You can find your local Bitcoiners.

1557
01:48:58,158 --> 01:48:59,638
You can start using a wallet.

1558
01:48:59,859 --> 01:49:02,398
You can face zap on a video call.

1559
01:49:02,498 --> 01:49:03,698
That is the coolest thing.

1560
01:49:04,078 --> 01:49:06,119
If you've not done that yet, open Club Orange.

1561
01:49:06,398 --> 01:49:08,338
Hit the little phone button on the top right.

1562
01:49:08,498 --> 01:49:10,379
Make a video call to someone you know.

1563
01:49:10,678 --> 01:49:11,778
And just tap their face.

1564
01:49:11,979 --> 01:49:12,918
And you will see.

1565
01:49:13,239 --> 01:49:15,018
You will see the magic happen.

1566
01:49:15,198 --> 01:49:16,598
It's such a cool little feature.

1567
01:49:17,119 --> 01:49:17,698
Just something.

1568
01:49:17,698 --> 01:49:22,178
I mean, for shits and gigs, I suppose, but it's cool.

1569
01:49:22,518 --> 01:49:23,798
You can just do things, right?

1570
01:49:24,359 --> 01:49:25,938
So go check it out, Club Orange.

1571
01:49:26,119 --> 01:49:27,119
Link in the show notes.

1572
01:49:27,238 --> 01:49:28,238
Go get yourself a membership.

1573
01:49:28,758 --> 01:49:30,398
Yes, it's a paid membership, guys.

1574
01:49:30,938 --> 01:49:33,838
Seriously, if it's free, you are the product.

1575
01:49:34,038 --> 01:49:35,438
That's not the Bitcoin ethos.

1576
01:49:35,538 --> 01:49:36,738
So get over to Club Orange.

1577
01:49:36,898 --> 01:49:38,119
Link in the show notes.

1578
01:49:38,758 --> 01:49:41,979
Stack your sats with Relay, R-E-L-A-I.C-H,

1579
01:49:42,398 --> 01:49:45,979
and take self-custody with Bitbox, as I said.

1580
01:49:45,979 --> 01:49:50,298
pay with flash again i gave them a nice shill at the beginning here because square

1581
01:49:50,298 --> 01:49:55,938
are rolling out like this bitcoin is becoming a medium exchange you cannot stop that idea

1582
01:49:55,938 --> 01:50:02,938
like you will not stop that idea like simon was saying here in the um towards the front of um

1583
01:50:02,938 --> 01:50:07,738
towards the beginning of this podcast about how people say you don't you'll never need to sell

1584
01:50:07,738 --> 01:50:15,578
your bitcoin um that's a narrative bitcoin is and always will be money and money is a medium

1585
01:50:15,578 --> 01:50:22,598
exchange that's how we as human beings exchange value and communicate value across time and space

1586
01:50:22,598 --> 01:50:29,738
to each other and we've stumbled onto this bitcoin thing this discovery the hardest money our species

1587
01:50:29,738 --> 01:50:38,518
has ever known which is going to unlock abundance in all forms whatever like the mind boggles and

1588
01:50:38,518 --> 01:50:40,738
if we're not using it as a meme exchange

1589
01:50:40,738 --> 01:50:45,458
I don't know, I don't even want to think of

1590
01:50:45,458 --> 01:50:48,258
the dystopia that we'll end up in if

1591
01:50:48,258 --> 01:50:51,958
this whole thing fails, but it won't, it's inevitable

1592
01:50:51,958 --> 01:50:54,718
what was I going to say next

1593
01:50:54,718 --> 01:50:58,859
shout out to a good friend of mine

1594
01:50:58,859 --> 01:51:01,619
who has started a company, she was talking about this

1595
01:51:01,619 --> 01:51:03,598
at a few of the conferences this year

1596
01:51:03,598 --> 01:51:07,278
Glock.me, G-L-O-K.me

1597
01:51:07,278 --> 01:51:21,038
If you are concerned about physical well-being or being targeted as a Bitcoiner, then this is probably the best place that you can start.

1598
01:51:21,218 --> 01:51:28,698
So get over and have a look at Glock.me, G-L-O-K.me for your peace of mind.

1599
01:51:30,038 --> 01:51:35,798
Basalto Fund, that's run by Andre Loja out of Madeira.

1600
01:51:35,798 --> 01:51:39,398
He's also going to be at Manchester this weekend talking about this fund.

1601
01:51:39,498 --> 01:51:47,498
If you're looking to diversify into different passports, different jurisdictions, run a little bit of red flag theory.

1602
01:51:47,979 --> 01:51:49,379
Red flag theory.

1603
01:51:51,458 --> 01:51:54,379
A small Freudian slip, I suppose.

1604
01:51:54,558 --> 01:51:58,778
It's called flag theory when you have different passports, different jurisdictions, different countries.

1605
01:51:59,658 --> 01:52:01,859
So Basalto Fund, go check them out.

1606
01:52:01,918 --> 01:52:02,718
Link in the show notes.

1607
01:52:02,718 --> 01:52:05,258
You can listen to my interview with Andre

1608
01:52:05,258 --> 01:52:08,178
if you just scroll back a few episodes there

1609
01:52:08,178 --> 01:52:09,879
and find out all about it.

1610
01:52:10,298 --> 01:52:11,818
With all that said, I'm out of music.

1611
01:52:12,038 --> 01:52:12,619
I'm out of time.

1612
01:52:12,898 --> 01:52:14,979
If you're coming to Manchester, we're looking forward to it.

1613
01:52:15,278 --> 01:52:15,979
Catch you on the next show.