1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,840 Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast. 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:17,560 This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can 3 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:24,140 around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin 4 00:00:24,140 --> 00:00:28,700 could mean for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. 5 00:00:28,700 --> 00:00:36,100 thank you so much for listening. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Once Bitten 6 00:00:36,100 --> 00:00:41,840 podcast. I hope everybody has enjoyed a good break. At time of recording this one is going out, 7 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:47,600 excuse me, at time of editing this one's going out 28th of December so we are post the Christmas 8 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:53,600 day and boxing day and pre-New Year's Day. I hope everybody's having a great time getting to spend 9 00:00:53,600 --> 00:01:01,640 lots of time with friends and family if you are the lonely bitcoiner in your family and amongst 10 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:10,040 your friends group you only have yourself to blame at this point i'm sorry if that sounds harsh but 11 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:16,180 club orange has been around for years now it used to be called orange pill app it's now called club 12 00:01:16,180 --> 00:01:22,340 orange you can join that app today just by clicking the link in the show notes and be connected to 13 00:01:22,340 --> 00:01:29,840 almost 20,000 other Bitcoiners around the world and some of whom are going to be very close to 14 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:35,180 where you are. I can almost guarantee that. I won't guarantee that with certainty. But you might 15 00:01:35,180 --> 00:01:41,340 find someone anywhere between a 10-minute drive or an hour's drive away from you that you can start 16 00:01:41,340 --> 00:01:48,160 connecting with as you move into the new year. Stop being the lonely Bitcoiner. Club Arrange 17 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:54,080 fixes this get over become a member come find us all on there today's show is with jesse schrader 18 00:01:54,080 --> 00:02:01,620 from ambos he's here to tell us why the lightning network is not dead and never will be and what's 19 00:02:01,620 --> 00:02:07,780 coming for the future of ambos so look forward to this one guys because this is going to be a very 20 00:02:07,780 --> 00:02:15,140 interesting topic as we move into 2026 and bitcoin becoming a medium of exchange rather than just the 21 00:02:15,140 --> 00:02:20,200 you'll never have to sell your bitcoin dudes just borrow your uh send your bitcoin to us 22 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:25,000 you can borrow fiat from god knows where else and we will give you that fiat and then you've 23 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:30,040 got to pay interest on that fiat but you don't have to sell your bitcoin that's all nonsense 24 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:35,980 bitcoin needs to become a medium exchange if we are going to escape that system that we are 25 00:02:35,980 --> 00:02:43,120 we keep constantly validating it with all of this kind of fiatting around on it so bitcoin 26 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:49,540 medium exchange this is going to be the btc prague ethos next year as well so if you want to 27 00:02:49,540 --> 00:02:54,760 get to btc prague that's going to be in june the code bitten is still running it's going to be 28 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:59,680 running again you can use that code to get a 10 discount start planning your events for next year 29 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:04,140 if you've never been to a bitcoin event make it a new year's resolution get to one so meet 30 00:03:04,140 --> 00:03:10,960 bitcoiners club orange get to an event btc prague perfect uh and bitten will get you a uh a discount 31 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:11,820 and B2C Prague 32 00:03:11,820 --> 00:03:13,280 and there's a referral link 33 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:14,000 in the show notes 34 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,160 for the Club Orange app. 35 00:03:16,740 --> 00:03:17,640 Stacking your sats 36 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:18,300 can be easier 37 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:19,440 if you're across Europe. 38 00:03:19,820 --> 00:03:20,140 Relay, 39 00:03:20,220 --> 00:03:21,260 R-E-L-A-I 40 00:03:21,260 --> 00:03:21,980 dot C-H 41 00:03:21,980 --> 00:03:22,780 forward slash Bitten. 42 00:03:22,980 --> 00:03:23,880 You can download 43 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:25,120 that app today 44 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:26,560 and start stacking 45 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:27,500 immediately 46 00:03:27,500 --> 00:03:28,740 and be in control 47 00:03:28,740 --> 00:03:29,340 of your Bitcoin 48 00:03:29,340 --> 00:03:31,560 because it's a self-custodial 49 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,060 Bitcoin wallet 50 00:03:33,060 --> 00:03:34,440 built into the app. 51 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:35,720 So get over to Relay. 52 00:03:35,780 --> 00:03:36,360 If you've never heard 53 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:37,040 of Relay before, 54 00:03:37,740 --> 00:03:38,400 just go back 55 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:39,220 two or three episodes 56 00:03:39,220 --> 00:03:40,460 I had Julian Linegar on. 57 00:03:40,460 --> 00:03:42,660 He's the CEO and co-founder of Relay. 58 00:03:42,900 --> 00:03:50,040 And we go through the whole process of them getting their current Mica license, M-I-C-A license in Europe. 59 00:03:50,460 --> 00:03:52,600 But taking self-custody is very important. 60 00:03:52,780 --> 00:03:57,840 I hope everybody got themselves a bit box hardware wallet for Christmas. 61 00:03:58,140 --> 00:04:00,580 If not, again, New Year's resolution. 62 00:04:01,100 --> 00:04:02,880 3rd of Jan is Proof of Keys Day. 63 00:04:03,220 --> 00:04:06,300 Proof of Keys Day means 3rd of January every year. 64 00:04:06,300 --> 00:04:11,420 those people that still have not taken self-custody and still have some Bitcoin on an exchange 65 00:04:11,420 --> 00:04:18,660 somewhere remove all their Bitcoin from the exchange. It is kind of a group effort to stress 66 00:04:18,660 --> 00:04:25,000 test the exchanges out there to make sure that they are keeping full reserves of the Bitcoin. 67 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:30,160 But you should be in control of your Bitcoin, not them. And that's what bitbox.swiss forward slash 68 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:35,520 bittern can do for you because that is a hardware wallet. They've been around for a long time now. 69 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:40,580 They've got the Bitbox O2 or the Bitbox Nova that are purely Bitcoin only. 70 00:04:41,180 --> 00:04:42,600 And they've got the great Beanie. 71 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:43,860 Thank you very much, guys. 72 00:04:44,060 --> 00:04:45,820 I opened that on Christmas morning. 73 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:47,600 I have an open source everything Beanie. 74 00:04:48,220 --> 00:04:53,540 And that is thank you very much again from the Bitbox team. 75 00:04:54,160 --> 00:05:04,060 Paywithflash.com is the place for you to go now and set up your dashboard, get your account up and running so you can start invoicing and receiving Bitcoin for your goods and services. 76 00:05:04,060 --> 00:05:13,100 very easy to use very simple paywithflash.com get over there that is being built by bitcoiners 77 00:05:13,100 --> 00:05:20,300 for bitcoiners so you can start accepting goods and services for your bitcoin like i said 2026 78 00:05:20,300 --> 00:05:25,100 btc prague they're going to be talking about using bitcoin bitcoin becoming a medium exchange 79 00:05:25,100 --> 00:05:29,780 we've got jesse about to come on and talk about the lightning network the lightning network is 80 00:05:29,780 --> 00:05:35,820 the best place to start using Bitcoin as a medium exchange. PayWithFlash.com is already set up for 81 00:05:35,820 --> 00:05:41,860 you to use Bitcoin as a medium exchange. So get ready for it. This is going to be one of the 82 00:05:41,860 --> 00:05:47,400 narratives going into next year. I'm up for it. I'm really looking forward to it. I hope you have 83 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:55,460 a great end to the year and enjoy this one with Jesse. All right, Jesse, good to have you back on 84 00:05:55,460 --> 00:06:01,980 the show how you doing doing great uh it's a pleasure to be back right so uh i can't remember 85 00:06:01,980 --> 00:06:09,180 what lauren would have asked you last time do you i don't you know i i wish i did well she's not 86 00:06:09,180 --> 00:06:15,160 around unfortunately but one of her favorite questions would have when i when i tell her 87 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:21,160 you know what the people do in the space and who are coming on she would have said uh what is the 88 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:29,120 lightning network yeah uh you want me to answer that right now as if you were talking to a 14 year 89 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:39,240 old lauren let's do it uh the lightning network is a way to move bitcoin faster cheaper in in a way 90 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:47,480 that actually can serve a whole bunch of the future needs um including ai or micro payments 91 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:56,800 basically anything that we want to use money for today can essentially be accommodated now because 92 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:06,960 we have the capacity to do so now now the money that we have grown to to love has is now has the 93 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:14,560 ability to to serve the full needs of the entire you know global business and economy 94 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:20,620 excellently put uh and and the reason i would have wanted her to lead off of that question is 95 00:07:20,620 --> 00:07:26,660 because we are still so early and we've got new people joining us every day and we're in that 96 00:07:26,660 --> 00:07:32,080 kind of period of the cycle where you're starting to get the tweets oh excuse me you're starting to 97 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:38,380 get the texts from your friends i literally just got a text from my landlord's son who's in his 98 00:07:38,380 --> 00:07:47,080 40s asking me whether I can help him navigate the waters of crypto so it's it we're there right 99 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:56,380 and if we start sharing podcasts uh around and uh the podcasts you know I would be guilty of this 100 00:07:56,380 --> 00:08:00,600 you know I'm five almost six years into hosting a podcast and I just assume the people that are 101 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,740 listening have been listening for a while and they understand all this stuff and we've really 102 00:08:04,740 --> 00:08:10,840 got to kind of pare it back and keep it as simple you know keep it simple stupid right kiss uh so 103 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:16,480 that's a that's a great way to uh to lead off and i don't want people thinking i made the mistake in 104 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:22,060 the early early days of of lightning thinking oh this is just another shit coin right i i thought 105 00:08:22,060 --> 00:08:27,900 it was another ico uh because it hadn't been explained um or i hadn't found the right podcast 106 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:38,420 And I think, I can't remember, maybe, oh, it's escaping me now, who I think I landed on Andreas. 107 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:44,960 And Andreas, using analogies to describe it, back in, when was the paper released? 108 00:08:45,060 --> 00:08:45,420 17? 109 00:08:46,660 --> 00:08:47,020 18? 110 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,720 Yeah, the actual paper came out in 2015. 111 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:51,820 Wow. 112 00:08:51,820 --> 00:08:55,640 And then it actually, you know, went live in 2018. 113 00:08:56,740 --> 00:08:57,180 Right. 114 00:08:57,180 --> 00:09:03,280 And then I was joining the Lightning Network, I think by the end of 2018, and then really 115 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:08,220 diving in because of some of the things that Andreas Sanzanopoulos had said, and because 116 00:09:08,220 --> 00:09:14,800 I had a horrible experience actually making a Bitcoin payment and it taking too long and 117 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:15,600 being too expensive. 118 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:18,720 Do you remember what he was saying? 119 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,580 What analogies he was using back then, 2018? 120 00:09:22,140 --> 00:09:23,760 And do you remember what pod it was on? 121 00:09:23,820 --> 00:09:24,700 Or was it an article? 122 00:09:26,380 --> 00:09:27,000 Oh, man. 123 00:09:27,180 --> 00:09:39,660 But, you know, like my kind of orange build was actually listening to Andreas Antonopoulos and listening to the Internet of Money audiobook and waking up and just couldn't think about anything else. 124 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:41,680 Like, oh, my God, this is amazing. 125 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:42,740 This has changed the world. 126 00:09:43,180 --> 00:09:45,920 But, you know, I was also like a Patreon subscriber. 127 00:09:46,060 --> 00:09:52,120 So I was listening to his like kind of webinars to have like the Q&A. 128 00:09:52,680 --> 00:09:55,120 But, I mean, the guy, he is incredible. 129 00:09:55,120 --> 00:10:01,280 Andreas Antonopoulos can come up with analogies that just really help solidify understanding. 130 00:10:01,460 --> 00:10:06,480 I still use some of the things that he said, but I can't remember a particular one. 131 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:08,300 I remember a particular one. 132 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,260 It must have been a little bit later than that, 2019, maybe. 133 00:10:11,260 --> 00:10:14,380 It was on Peter's show when he was still hosting What Bitcoin Did. 134 00:10:15,180 --> 00:10:19,760 And with another guy, and I can't, the guy's name is escaping me right now. 135 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:33,880 And they went through it like really really basic but the guy got long blonde hair guy and they wrote a book about it um i sure they wrote a book together but uh yeah andreas like 136 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:41,080 those but i remember the internet of money book just ripping through that and then going on to 137 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:48,300 find all of the links to watch the actual talks and then read the the that talk again uh in in the 138 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:54,780 book and yeah he made um yeah hats off andreas i know he listens to the show so you know it's uh 139 00:10:55,380 --> 00:11:05,180 i'm kidding fans yeah i'm sure andreas has better things to do than tune into one's bits and uh two 140 00:11:05,180 --> 00:11:14,260 or three times a week but um so it ah what was it what were you doing then before before you fell 141 00:11:14,260 --> 00:11:15,240 down this rabbit hole? 142 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,120 You know, I was working for the government. 143 00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:24,320 You know, I think, let's see, I had worked in legal services. 144 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:25,060 Is that what you're saying? 145 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,160 I mean, is this the big group? 146 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,780 No, I was actually working in transportation. 147 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:30,680 Right. 148 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:38,720 So I had a job that was gathering road surface data by driving every single state road in 149 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:39,020 Oregon. 150 00:11:39,500 --> 00:11:44,020 You know, there's basically one or two people that does this in every single state in the 151 00:11:44,020 --> 00:11:51,480 us and they just kind of report on the conditions of the roads um and wait wait wait that's as 152 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:57,580 technical as it gets like just get in the car and drive the roads count the potholes or like 153 00:11:57,580 --> 00:12:03,380 what were you doing what were the metrics uh yeah i mean if you really want to get into it um so 154 00:12:03,380 --> 00:12:10,740 one was roughness of the road and so i was driving a special truck with five lasers on it and it was 155 00:12:10,740 --> 00:12:18,480 sample 10,000 samples a second and measured kind of distance, you know, did the pavement 156 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:19,740 deviate a lot? 157 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:22,140 You know, was it rough? 158 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,320 Which is actually a lagging indicator of a road failing. 159 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:27,960 And additionally, I was measuring rut depth. 160 00:12:28,660 --> 00:12:36,120 So basically, you know, as these heavy trucks drive along the road or people use studded 161 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:42,160 tires. Is it digging away at the pavement or is it pushing the pavement away from the actual wheel 162 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:48,420 paths? But overall, you don't want ruts. So we're measuring rut depth as you drive at highway speeds 163 00:12:48,420 --> 00:12:55,420 is really quite cool. And then we also measured friction so that what you can kind of use a 164 00:12:55,420 --> 00:13:02,100 standard test tire, spray water on it and measure like in a wet condition, how, you know, how 165 00:13:02,100 --> 00:13:07,680 effectively could you stop on this pavement? And it actually like revealed some like interesting 166 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:14,080 spots to be like, wow, that's really low friction. But, you know, I'm just I'm just driving around 167 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:19,220 every single state road, listening to podcasts or anything that I could find that's interesting, 168 00:13:19,220 --> 00:13:25,480 because it's a perpetual road trip. And, you know, with another person to discuss things with, 169 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:32,680 it was a blast as far as like a job to have like early on in your like engineering career 170 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:41,080 but but that's kind of like how I kind of stumbled onto some of these some of these concepts and it 171 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:46,720 resonated you know with some of the other things that I had encountered before so you must have 172 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:52,440 had some great conversations with libertarians would you were you the guy that would say 173 00:13:52,440 --> 00:14:01,900 who would build the roads you know at that point i was the liberal guy you know i came to i came to 174 00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:07,980 bitcoin as like a progressive like i was the bernie guy they were all warning each other like 175 00:14:07,980 --> 00:14:15,300 the guy is a liberal you know um and it was kind of funny uh because you know i was like pro-government 176 00:14:15,300 --> 00:14:21,460 at that point. And everybody else was like, kind of more much more libertarian oriented. 177 00:14:22,820 --> 00:14:28,540 And it was funny, my politics have completely changed, you know, after after Bitcoin, 178 00:14:29,020 --> 00:14:34,1000 realizing the debt situation that we're in. Yeah, complete 180. 179 00:14:35,660 --> 00:14:41,620 And when you look at like that, so sorry, just to just to geek out a little bit on on the roads, 180 00:14:41,620 --> 00:14:48,100 you said it was a lag one of those was a lagging indicator so what would be a leading indicator of 181 00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:57,600 road decay um there might be some other ones so maybe like cracking on the surface um or there's 182 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:05,380 some things that you could spot uh but yeah it's it's a little little tricky um but one thing that 183 00:15:05,380 --> 00:15:13,040 learned from that experience is that if you're just patching potholes you like that is a lagging 184 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:20,640 indicator as well you cannot fix a road simply by patching potholes and sometimes it's more 185 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:28,860 strategic to actually let a road completely fail and not do repairs on it and instead focus on the 186 00:15:28,860 --> 00:15:34,140 things that are working well and keep those in good condition because you're going to eventually 187 00:15:34,140 --> 00:15:43,880 have to do a full depth. We just lost your audio. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. You're back again. 188 00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:50,360 You got to do a full depth. Yeah. On, on some of these roads that have failed, you have to do a 189 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:58,440 full depth reconstruction, which is disruptive and expensive, but, but basically I think a lot 190 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:05,240 of people have an idea of how to fix the roads. But you want to be strategic because you only have 191 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:10,760 so much money. How do you make it go as far as possible? And that was like, that was the allocation 192 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:17,300 problem that I was kind of presented with. Because once I take that data back to the office, 193 00:16:17,620 --> 00:16:24,180 then it's a discussion about how do we make this go as far as possible? How do we allocate this 194 00:16:24,180 --> 00:16:33,200 budget and preserve an important transportation network. And from that experience, now I'm looking 195 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,980 at how do I maintain a financial transportation network, which is the Lightning Network. 196 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:47,320 And both critical infrastructure, right? So it's interesting that the analogy there is so perfect. 197 00:16:47,820 --> 00:16:52,940 And what would you say about potholes as well for us British listeners? I mean, I don't know 198 00:16:52,940 --> 00:16:55,980 the state of your roads in the US, but my goodness, 199 00:16:56,380 --> 00:16:59,240 like what is going on here is crazy. 200 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:03,380 And granted, where we live, we're quite rural. 201 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,700 So the roads aren't going to be top of, you know, 202 00:17:06,780 --> 00:17:11,760 people's to-do list at Central Planning Headquarters. 203 00:17:12,540 --> 00:17:19,080 But you can see it's such a game of whack-a-mole. 204 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:23,880 it's it's actually kind of intellectually 205 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:31,120 ridiculous that you know these guys they go out in their flatbed trucks 206 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:35,660 and they're working all hours and they're going out and they're literally just filling the holes 207 00:17:35,660 --> 00:17:44,780 full of this kind of tarmac-y tar-y stuff that's a quick dry thing and but they have to close the 208 00:17:44,780 --> 00:17:49,900 roads to do that so there's always traffic mayhem all around where we're we're living at the moment 209 00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:57,740 and you know sure as shit that they're going to be back to patch those up in nine to 12 months time 210 00:17:57,740 --> 00:18:09,600 and it's almost as if hang on a minute right is this just a ruse now just to keep the money coming 211 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:14,280 in because they're incentivized when you look at the incentives they're incentivized to use 212 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:20,220 materials, I'm sure they're government regulated materials that they have to use. But it's in their 213 00:18:20,220 --> 00:18:24,1000 interest to have more potholes, not just fix them. So the problem goes away, because then they're 214 00:18:24,1000 --> 00:18:31,120 going to run out of work. And for the central planners, the councils, in the case of the United 215 00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:38,240 Kingdom, it's their incentive to spend all their budget every year. Because if they don't, then 216 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,160 the people above them tell them, well, we gave you obviously too much budget, so we'll cut your 217 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:49,700 budget so we can give that somewhere so it's like this perpetual circle of absolute waste 218 00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:58,760 and misallocation of capital and um upside down incentives which is what fiat and central planning 219 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:05,500 brings it's insane it kind of tells me that there's a disconnect between like experts in the 220 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:12,760 field and like the political momentum you know because potholes is a political issue um actual 221 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:19,780 like transportation engineering is not so much of a political issue. It's basically given a budget, 222 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:25,340 how do I make it go as far as possible? But if all the political momentum is on, you know, 223 00:19:25,340 --> 00:19:32,100 fixing potholes, you'll never actually solve the root of the issue. I mean, when it comes to 224 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:37,900 kind of relating to what, you know, we know about is, you know, Bitcoin, it's basically 225 00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:44,960 when inflation happens, well, I think most of the people are upset about grocery prices 226 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:52,060 and the product, the prices of their food and the prices of housing. But that's not the like, 227 00:19:52,060 --> 00:19:59,120 and then the political momentum is on price controls and rent control. When the actual 228 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:05,760 problem is completely different than that, it is actually the creation of money, which is not even 229 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:14,420 factoring into the political discourse at all. We're looking at the effect of some root causes 230 00:20:14,420 --> 00:20:21,480 that have happened far before. Here we are talking about potholes on a Bitcoin podcast. I love it. 231 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:29,920 The tangents that you get thrown off is brilliant. All right. Okay. So let's come back to 232 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,920 to Amboss. Let's get people up to speed. 233 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,920 You know, what is it that you actually do in the Bitcoin space? 234 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,920 You'll be forever known as the pothole guy now, but I'm sorry. 235 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,920 You're just going to have to wear that one. 236 00:20:43,920 --> 00:21:01,559 Happy to be called whatever But basically what Amboss does is help people coordinate to create a debt free payment system We know that Bitcoin can scale to serve global payments So we have to 237 00:21:01,559 --> 00:21:08,339 think about ways to actually make it possible for everyone to use this phenomenal technology for 238 00:21:08,339 --> 00:21:14,299 money and for settlement. So how do we scale Bitcoin up? Well, we created the Lightning Network 239 00:21:14,299 --> 00:21:22,199 Not we, but really Amboss is using the Lightning Network and helping people coordinate in a decentralized way. 240 00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:36,319 We're basically communicating, hey, there's a market for actually creating infrastructure that can deliver payments like anywhere in the world at very fast speeds without introducing new money. 241 00:21:37,219 --> 00:21:39,539 So no credit is created. 242 00:21:39,939 --> 00:21:42,099 No debt relationships are created. 243 00:21:42,099 --> 00:21:44,299 It's really about just relationships. 244 00:21:44,879 --> 00:21:46,119 Who do you want to connect to? 245 00:21:46,959 --> 00:21:49,879 Where is strategic to allocate your Bitcoin? 246 00:21:50,859 --> 00:22:05,459 And from that, we've released a series of products that help Amboss be a liquidity coordinator for this Lightning Network that requires liquidity because there's no credit and there's no debt. 247 00:22:05,459 --> 00:22:23,319 Right. So let's use an example of how some of the guys that are already using the Lightning network, they've downloaded three or four different Lightning wallets that they might be using, hopefully day to day, but probably not. 248 00:22:23,319 --> 00:22:27,499 We're not quite there yet, but as we move to a medium of exchange, we all will be. 249 00:22:28,999 --> 00:22:36,439 Once they've made that Bitcoin payment, how might they have touched Amboss without even realizing it? 250 00:22:37,879 --> 00:22:45,479 Yeah, so basically, most consumers are going to be using a wallet, and the wallet is running the infrastructure for them. 251 00:22:45,479 --> 00:22:50,499 so they can go to Amboss and look up their wallet 252 00:22:50,499 --> 00:22:54,239 and see all of the connections that it has on the Lightning Network. 253 00:22:55,139 --> 00:22:57,579 You can see the relationships that are created. 254 00:22:57,739 --> 00:22:59,579 So a lot of people use Wallet of Satoshi. 255 00:23:00,199 --> 00:23:03,359 But you can look up the node and see, you know, 256 00:23:03,419 --> 00:23:06,939 the potentially thousands of connections that they actually have. 257 00:23:07,399 --> 00:23:08,959 So every time you issue a payment, 258 00:23:08,959 --> 00:23:11,879 it's going to travel along one of those connections 259 00:23:11,879 --> 00:23:14,459 and reach to different destinations. 260 00:23:14,459 --> 00:23:20,079 And we want to see a really decentralized network. We don't just want everybody using 261 00:23:20,079 --> 00:23:26,199 wallet of Satoshi. Credit to them for making a great product. But we want this thing to be fully 262 00:23:26,199 --> 00:23:34,459 decentralized. And so it means not trusting in just one provider because anybody can participate 263 00:23:34,459 --> 00:23:41,099 in this financial network. They can start a node if they're really technical and want to get into 264 00:23:41,099 --> 00:23:47,359 this. Or, you know, we built products so that people just need to bring the capital, will run 265 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:54,499 the operation. And basically, we package that up in a product called Rails, which allows people to 266 00:23:54,499 --> 00:23:59,239 just deploy Bitcoin, Ambus will run the operations, manage the connections, 267 00:23:59,759 --> 00:24:08,539 help set market rates for fees that they can charge. And all in all, really work to return 268 00:24:08,539 --> 00:24:14,979 more capital to those people that are using Rails because they are infrastructure providers 269 00:24:14,979 --> 00:24:21,599 and they should be compensated for that. So you use the term liquidity coordinator. Do you want 270 00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:29,779 to just drill down in case that passed over a few people's heads? Sure. Yeah. So like whenever you 271 00:24:29,779 --> 00:24:37,539 go to swipe your card, basically before you're even granted a card, well, the bank is going to 272 00:24:37,539 --> 00:24:42,319 do an assessment on you. Are you a credit risk to me? I'm going to look at your entire financial 273 00:24:42,319 --> 00:24:48,839 history, every payment that you've made, your credit score, or what have you, before I even 274 00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:55,159 give you a card. And then the card networks are also onboarding merchants. And they're going to 275 00:24:55,159 --> 00:25:01,059 charge these merchants based on what they think the fraud risk is. Because every time you go to 276 00:25:01,059 --> 00:25:07,299 tap, swipe, dip your card, well, there's a credit relationship, there's a loan that is created. 277 00:25:07,539 --> 00:25:13,419 And one, the question is, are you going to be good on that loan? 278 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,379 Are you going to actually pay your credit card bill? 279 00:25:16,719 --> 00:25:20,919 And then are you going to do a chargeback and say, I never paid that? 280 00:25:21,659 --> 00:25:23,559 Or you have some fraud event. 281 00:25:24,019 --> 00:25:31,819 But basically, it's a whole mess of a system that ends up causing more expensive products for consumers. 282 00:25:31,819 --> 00:25:37,659 It causes the cost of goods to increase because the payment processing is expensive. 283 00:25:38,279 --> 00:25:47,839 So we're baking in three, sometimes four percent into every single transaction that we're making, especially for online retailers. 284 00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:56,299 They're going to be paying four percent and they're going to have to increase the prices of whatever good or service they want to sell because of the cost of payment processing. 285 00:25:56,299 --> 00:26:04,199 but here what we're doing with lightning is we're removing all of this this credit and debt from the 286 00:26:04,199 --> 00:26:10,119 system i don't need to know anything about you because what we have is cryptographic proof 287 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:15,499 but what we have to do in order to set that up is create the infrastructure first 288 00:26:15,499 --> 00:26:23,319 so that means creating a lightning channel and having liquidity so you have the money it's ready 289 00:26:23,319 --> 00:26:30,339 to go. It's already loaded up into this system. And we could fire off this payment from a cannon 290 00:26:30,339 --> 00:26:38,759 and actually make this payment happen. And there's no trust that is needed in the system. 291 00:26:38,759 --> 00:26:46,319 You have final settlement. And really, that's our whole job is get the Bitcoin in the right 292 00:26:46,319 --> 00:26:51,059 places in the network to make this entire system work very, very well. 293 00:26:51,059 --> 00:27:00,099 so there's been a lot of um noise in the bitcoin space certainly over the last two years uh we've 294 00:27:00,099 --> 00:27:07,479 had ordinals we've had inscriptions we've had runes we've had brc20 tokens uh we've now got 295 00:27:07,479 --> 00:27:15,359 the knots versus core debates we've got this new bip on the plate 444 and the community has you 296 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,859 really being divided over a lot of things here. 297 00:27:18,859 --> 00:27:24,979 And early on in this whole thing, back probably 18 months ago now, 298 00:27:25,519 --> 00:27:28,999 there was the whole Layer 2 debacle. 299 00:27:29,659 --> 00:27:33,119 It was like, I know we've had Paper Bitcoin Summer. 300 00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:38,079 I remember Layer 2 Bitcoin Summer, where there was a new Layer 2 solution. 301 00:27:38,779 --> 00:27:42,819 It felt like every other day, maybe it was more weekly back in those days, 302 00:27:42,939 --> 00:27:45,079 but time passes so quickly. 303 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:55,019 and we were told the narrative you know lightning's never worked bro like you know 304 00:27:55,019 --> 00:28:00,859 these people that were pushing the other layer too it was always yeah lightning never worked 305 00:28:00,859 --> 00:28:07,299 it was never going to scale we need to do this that and the other thing do you remember those 306 00:28:07,299 --> 00:28:13,779 days and some of those actors and and what were you guys thinking you know about all of this because 307 00:28:13,779 --> 00:28:16,699 it was, again, it was just a really divisive time. 308 00:28:19,399 --> 00:28:25,239 I think a lot of the layer twos were very distracting because, you know, when I was 309 00:28:25,239 --> 00:28:29,939 speaking to investors, I was having to explain all of the different things that any of these 310 00:28:29,939 --> 00:28:30,639 guys were pitching. 311 00:28:31,319 --> 00:28:33,559 But it was all pre-product. 312 00:28:34,179 --> 00:28:36,779 They had, you know, no release of this thing. 313 00:28:36,999 --> 00:28:41,439 And I was having to answer questions about, well, you know, what if this thing takes off? 314 00:28:41,439 --> 00:28:44,119 And of course, like payments is a great story. 315 00:28:44,259 --> 00:28:46,159 It's a massive, massive market. 316 00:28:47,839 --> 00:28:53,459 And like, that's what, you know, the layer two is really aimed to solve. 317 00:28:53,639 --> 00:28:59,619 Many of the layer twos that were created or proposed involved creating a new token. 318 00:29:00,299 --> 00:29:05,459 And that's where you have the exact same token incentives of the ICO boom. 319 00:29:06,739 --> 00:29:10,879 And basically, you've got this unregistered securities risk. 320 00:29:11,439 --> 00:29:18,719 I don't want to buy this token because I'm basically buying equity in your startup and it's not properly issued. 321 00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:23,619 Like that's I think that was one of the key issues with all of the layer twos. 322 00:29:24,019 --> 00:29:25,679 But some of them were legit. 323 00:29:25,679 --> 00:29:36,519 I think one thing that we've learned, you know, the critics of Lightning in one respect are right, that it's not really for consumer payments. 324 00:29:36,519 --> 00:29:45,039 It functions much better for businesses that want to do very fast, low cost payments at scale. 325 00:29:45,459 --> 00:29:58,479 But right now where we're at is kind of this, I'm getting flashbacks to the ICO boom because now it's stable coins are being issued everywhere on their own blockchain. 326 00:29:58,859 --> 00:30:04,819 And there's wild promises being made about how scalable these blockchains are. 327 00:30:04,819 --> 00:30:12,259 You know, we saw Stripe and Paradigm partner up to come out with their Tempo blockchain. 328 00:30:13,039 --> 00:30:19,419 And they're, you know, saying, you know, in front of Congress that they're going to reach 100,000 transactions per second. 329 00:30:20,279 --> 00:30:25,119 And, like, that's an incredible achievement if it were possible. 330 00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:31,559 You know, we're looking at, if you want to look at Solana, that can do 17,000 transactions per second. 331 00:30:31,559 --> 00:30:37,719 You know, completely centralized, you know, like one server, the thing goes down. 332 00:30:38,279 --> 00:30:42,579 But now you're having these wild promises being made. 333 00:30:43,179 --> 00:30:46,579 And the reality is it can't serve the future economy. 334 00:30:47,219 --> 00:30:54,579 If you look just at Google searches per second, it's 189,000 Google searches per second. 335 00:30:54,999 --> 00:31:00,359 So the blockchain solution for your stablecoin is not going to work. 336 00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:02,719 You need something that scales better. 337 00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:20,179 And what Lightning does is it essentially means that you not constrained by proof of work happening every time a transaction is made The cost of a transaction is essentially the cost of a digital signature and it vanishingly small 338 00:31:20,179 --> 00:31:23,099 And that allows you to reach 40 million transactions 339 00:31:23,099 --> 00:31:23,939 per second. 340 00:31:24,859 --> 00:31:28,859 And so that's basically trying to cut through 341 00:31:28,859 --> 00:31:32,459 all the distractions that happen when you have token 342 00:31:32,459 --> 00:31:34,699 incentives, when you've got stable coins, 343 00:31:34,699 --> 00:31:36,939 you've got legislation, you've got all these people 344 00:31:36,939 --> 00:31:44,779 proposing these wild things to attract the payments market. But I think we have to, 345 00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:50,259 like building this technology takes a while. There are network effects to it. There's a reason that 346 00:31:50,259 --> 00:31:56,679 we're still using the same debit and credit card technology that was established in the 1970s. 347 00:31:58,079 --> 00:32:05,259 Payments takes a while. There are many chicken and egg problems. But the reality is, is that 348 00:32:05,259 --> 00:32:13,659 lightning works today. It is very efficient and has a great potential to actually scale and solve 349 00:32:13,659 --> 00:32:20,399 many of the payments problems that are causing our consumer prices to rise. 350 00:32:21,839 --> 00:32:28,639 You want to just touch on Liquid and ARK because they're the two standout ones that 351 00:32:28,639 --> 00:32:35,059 actually stood the test of time and are being used as Bitcoin payment rails and how they 352 00:32:35,059 --> 00:32:43,099 slightly differed to lightning yeah okay so liquid is a side chain so it is a separate blockchain 353 00:32:43,099 --> 00:32:51,599 and you can get scalability benefits out of that liquid also includes some improvements upon bitcoin 354 00:32:51,599 --> 00:33:00,359 that like they don't need to get the global you know uh very intransigent bitcoin consensus 355 00:33:00,359 --> 00:33:03,219 in order to make these changes. 356 00:33:03,879 --> 00:33:05,619 So Liquid has been a bit ahead, 357 00:33:06,099 --> 00:33:09,139 and they have much more Spark contract functionality. 358 00:33:09,659 --> 00:33:12,539 They're also issuing other assets on Liquid. 359 00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:14,519 So super interesting. 360 00:33:15,059 --> 00:33:17,719 But it's not going to be a scalability solution 361 00:33:17,719 --> 00:33:21,779 from what I've seen because, one, 362 00:33:22,159 --> 00:33:23,699 it's not getting a whole lot of usage. 363 00:33:23,699 --> 00:33:27,479 There are token incentives that Liquid is competing against. 364 00:33:27,479 --> 00:33:34,719 um it's not uh the liquid federation is not you know essentially paying exchanges to get listed 365 00:33:34,719 --> 00:33:41,499 which is kind of limited things because they don't have a separate token incentive like all the other 366 00:33:41,499 --> 00:33:52,499 crypto tokens but i think it is um legit uh it's it's a good technology the second um that you 367 00:33:52,499 --> 00:33:59,539 mentioned was ARK. And what ARK does is kind of passing around unconfirmed transactions, 368 00:34:00,139 --> 00:34:09,259 these virtual VTXOs, virtual transaction outputs. But basically, you can kind of move around all the 369 00:34:09,259 --> 00:34:15,579 transactions, and they don't need to actually be settled on the Bitcoin blockchain. You can have 370 00:34:15,579 --> 00:34:20,219 kind of rolling settlement, which makes us trustless. But many of the things that we're 371 00:34:20,219 --> 00:34:28,039 seeing right now, there are some trust elements to it. And especially, well, one thing, 372 00:34:28,939 --> 00:34:35,699 they'll talk about unilateral exit. And that's a key piece of a layer two. So without any input 373 00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:40,839 from anybody, you should be able to exit and get your money back out of the system. Lightning has 374 00:34:40,839 --> 00:34:47,279 that. And it has the forced close. So basically, I always have a signed transaction that could be 375 00:34:47,279 --> 00:34:52,019 ready to be broadcast. And I can take that to the bank. I can get my Bitcoin back on chain. 376 00:34:52,859 --> 00:34:58,939 For ARK, it's slightly different because you're actually having to pay for not just one transaction, 377 00:34:59,559 --> 00:35:04,599 but potentially 17 others or whoever else is in the round. So it could be very 378 00:35:04,599 --> 00:35:10,019 to do the unilateral exit. So some trade-offs are being made. 379 00:35:10,139 --> 00:35:17,039 Yeah. And am I right in thinking that, well, we last saw each other in person in Riga? And 380 00:35:17,039 --> 00:35:21,659 I think they were using ARK underneath the rails for all of the, 381 00:35:21,879 --> 00:35:24,899 we thought we were all paying via lightning when we were buying our burgers 382 00:35:24,899 --> 00:35:27,419 and our beers and whatever else, but it was actually, 383 00:35:27,419 --> 00:35:30,879 I think Rockstar was part of that. 384 00:35:31,699 --> 00:35:32,859 Have I got that right? 385 00:35:34,379 --> 00:35:37,759 Yeah, they were using ARK for settlement, 386 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,779 but they were also using bolts, 387 00:35:40,959 --> 00:35:44,259 which is interfacing between lightning and ARK. 388 00:35:44,999 --> 00:35:51,239 And Bolts is, you know, I think they fly under the radar a lot, but they're helping to interface between these layers. 389 00:35:51,239 --> 00:36:10,439 And it's a good example of the function that Lightning still provides, even if you have these other layer twos, because there's low trust assumptions and you can connect these different innovations that would happen either on Liquid or on Arc, both of which Bolts is actually providing for. 390 00:36:10,439 --> 00:36:18,699 so i guess like at this point many people are trying to figure out maybe how how ambos runs 391 00:36:18,699 --> 00:36:23,819 how how does the business work uh why would people uh invest in it what's the 392 00:36:23,819 --> 00:36:27,399 you know how what's the the business model under the hood 393 00:36:27,399 --> 00:36:39,019 yeah so really uh at our core we have a liquidity marketplace so and what we have ahead is we're 394 00:36:39,019 --> 00:36:45,199 very focused on the innovations with taproot assets to allow stable coins to actually be 395 00:36:45,199 --> 00:36:52,059 issued on Bitcoin natively and also be Lightning compatible. Do it in a way that it's not going to 396 00:36:52,059 --> 00:37:00,139 bloat the Bitcoin blockchain, make a very efficient use of this, but answer a key issue that merchants 397 00:37:00,139 --> 00:37:05,819 are having. They want cheaper payments, but they're afraid of volatility. They're deathly 398 00:37:05,819 --> 00:37:12,559 afraid of volatility. And that's the thing that Bitcoiners love because you have no trust 399 00:37:12,559 --> 00:37:20,359 assumptions. But what merchants want is no volatility. And that's what they get with 400 00:37:20,359 --> 00:37:26,939 stablecoins. They're okay with the trust trade-off, with having an issuer. So that's really where 401 00:37:26,939 --> 00:37:34,099 we're focused so that we can bring not just Bitcoin liquidity to the system and have trustless 402 00:37:34,099 --> 00:37:42,019 payments, but also introduce stablecoin liquidity to actually serve many merchants so that, 403 00:37:42,019 --> 00:37:46,939 you know, for us Bitcoiners, that means you're just being presented with a lightning invoice. 404 00:37:47,699 --> 00:37:52,559 But as soon as you pay that, what's actually happening is in-flight currency exchange. 405 00:37:53,059 --> 00:38:03,439 So this obsoletes the FX market, which settles nearly $8 trillion every single day. 406 00:38:04,099 --> 00:38:06,579 This is just a fundamental technology. 407 00:38:06,999 --> 00:38:09,879 You know, Lightning has been kind of understated, 408 00:38:10,039 --> 00:38:12,059 but it is incredibly powerful 409 00:38:12,059 --> 00:38:16,139 because it's able to do these instant payments 410 00:38:16,139 --> 00:38:18,439 and do the in-flight currency exchange. 411 00:38:19,899 --> 00:38:21,739 It's solving a massive problem 412 00:38:21,739 --> 00:38:23,799 for the much larger companies 413 00:38:23,799 --> 00:38:25,939 that have to deal in multiple currencies. 414 00:38:29,539 --> 00:38:30,999 I've lost your audio again. 415 00:38:31,419 --> 00:38:32,079 What just happened? 416 00:38:32,319 --> 00:38:33,359 You just dropped out again. 417 00:38:33,359 --> 00:38:37,459 Yeah, no, that's right. You said multiple currencies, then it went for like two seconds. Yeah, go on. 418 00:38:37,459 --> 00:38:59,499 Okay. Yeah. Well, for businesses, like, why shouldn't you be able to receive any currency that you want? You just select from a dropdown in the internet age and have 24-7, 365, a financial system that works, when currently the foreign exchange market is 24-5. 419 00:38:59,499 --> 00:39:06,419 there's no settlement on the weekends and this weekend that rolls around the earth 420 00:39:06,419 --> 00:39:13,519 and has banking holidays and all of this nonsense that really doesn't belong in the future financial 421 00:39:13,519 --> 00:39:22,459 system where you have high uptime reliable settlement that just works so stable coins 422 00:39:22,459 --> 00:39:28,359 that this a few people might be thinking huh like you know what what because you said earlier 423 00:39:28,359 --> 00:39:33,559 some people are just issuing stable coins on whatever blockchain. 424 00:39:34,059 --> 00:39:35,759 First of all, they think up the blockchain, 425 00:39:35,959 --> 00:39:38,939 then they think up the token or the stable coin, so-called in air quotes. 426 00:39:38,939 --> 00:39:45,279 But what I think you're saying here is stable coins native on Bitcoin. 427 00:39:45,659 --> 00:39:47,939 Is that the kind of right terminology? 428 00:39:48,199 --> 00:39:49,619 And how do you explain that to people? 429 00:39:49,739 --> 00:39:56,419 Because as Bitcoiners, we're included very wary of stable coins. 430 00:39:56,419 --> 00:40:01,779 and still trying to come to terms with, you know, 431 00:40:01,839 --> 00:40:06,879 is even Tether, like, you know, good actors, bad actors, 432 00:40:07,099 --> 00:40:09,539 you know, the jury's still out, they're still a divisive topic. 433 00:40:10,639 --> 00:40:17,739 Yeah, and then the worry of like a government 434 00:40:17,739 --> 00:40:22,219 or a state actor creating a CBDC as their own stable coin 435 00:40:22,219 --> 00:40:24,539 in air quotes, there's concern. 436 00:40:24,539 --> 00:40:29,199 So, yeah, how do we how do you foresee this? 437 00:40:30,059 --> 00:40:30,259 You know. 438 00:40:32,339 --> 00:40:40,999 How do we make sure that no bad shit comes in, I guess, is the best way to to deliver that question? 439 00:40:42,999 --> 00:40:46,319 There's there's tons of tradeoffs with any of these other tokens. 440 00:40:46,779 --> 00:40:50,739 What we have with Bitcoin is a is a money with no issuer. 441 00:40:50,739 --> 00:41:01,059 what we have with stable coins is a token with an issuer and we have to we have to understand that 442 00:41:01,059 --> 00:41:07,519 like there's a couple of solutions where you can kind of do pegs or you know get creative with 443 00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:14,579 stable channels which you know cool tech but i think what people want is and what we're seeing 444 00:41:14,579 --> 00:41:21,819 with the actual numbers of transactions that are happening is, you know, most of the settlement 445 00:41:21,819 --> 00:41:28,759 is happening with Tether on Tron. Like, as centralized as it gets, you know, I'm trusting 446 00:41:28,759 --> 00:41:34,679 Justin's son to not cave to the government pressure that may come in. You know, you've 447 00:41:34,679 --> 00:41:39,099 got one phone call that could potentially shut the entire thing down. 448 00:41:39,918 --> 00:41:43,698 Now, that doesn't sound like a sustainable system to me. 449 00:41:44,538 --> 00:41:51,558 And so what we can do is basically either natively issue a stablecoin. 450 00:41:51,558 --> 00:41:59,698 So it's someone that's saying, I have these assets that are backing this stablecoin, and I'm going to issue this token on Bitcoin. 451 00:41:59,698 --> 00:42:02,798 or what you can do is take an existing one, 452 00:42:03,358 --> 00:42:05,638 do the taproot asset reference token, 453 00:42:06,178 --> 00:42:12,458 issue this TART that is kind of referencing another token, 454 00:42:12,778 --> 00:42:14,178 a stablecoin that already exists, 455 00:42:14,838 --> 00:42:16,458 but it's not taking on, 456 00:42:16,798 --> 00:42:18,798 now you're kind of sidestepping the risk 457 00:42:18,798 --> 00:42:21,718 that the entire Solana blockchain is going to go down 458 00:42:21,718 --> 00:42:23,878 or the Tron blockchain is going to go down 459 00:42:23,878 --> 00:42:27,538 because what Bitcoin has is really high uptime 460 00:42:27,538 --> 00:42:28,858 and that reliability. 461 00:42:29,698 --> 00:42:35,618 So once that exists in that format, then you're moving around these tokens that are compatible with a Lightning network. 462 00:42:36,518 --> 00:42:41,218 So you're moving whatever currency you want, and it's doing in-flight currency exchange. 463 00:42:41,738 --> 00:42:49,178 That's a tech upgrade that removes trust in these infrastructure providers that we have no reason to trust. 464 00:42:49,178 --> 00:42:56,738 and what since the what's it been now like a few weeks since uh square and cash app announced 465 00:42:56,738 --> 00:43:03,158 that they've like unlocked is it like four million merchants i believe uh what what kind of 466 00:43:03,158 --> 00:43:08,978 what data have you have you guys seen obviously you keep a very close eye on the lightning network 467 00:43:08,978 --> 00:43:12,518 um yeah have you seen anything significant 468 00:43:12,518 --> 00:43:21,298 what we did with rails is you know every customer that we have has their own node and we're we're 469 00:43:21,298 --> 00:43:26,398 tracking and actually reporting in real time all the transactions that are going through 470 00:43:26,398 --> 00:43:35,278 so you can kind of watch this happen um and we're seeing it is an uptick in transactions um you know 471 00:43:35,278 --> 00:43:40,958 the number of transactions and the volume that we're processing is increasing month over month 472 00:43:40,958 --> 00:43:50,378 and this is huge to onboard 4 million people to have extremely low cost payment processing 473 00:43:50,378 --> 00:43:55,798 it's a huge unlock where you can go spend your bitcoin now if that's what you want to do 474 00:43:55,798 --> 00:44:02,958 if you want to spend your stable coins well like what we're working on is kind of you can spend 475 00:44:02,958 --> 00:44:08,498 your your shit coins and it will actually get settled as bitcoin and enabling that in-flight 476 00:44:08,498 --> 00:44:14,898 currency exchange. I think that's, that's huge, because, you know, we're going to have so many 477 00:44:14,898 --> 00:44:19,978 different issuers, we're going to have private issuers, we're going to have government issuers, 478 00:44:20,118 --> 00:44:26,858 and they're going to have to compete in the open market. And kind of the new libertarian in me, 479 00:44:26,978 --> 00:44:32,498 just wants to see that happen. I want the open market to decide, you know, what is the best 480 00:44:32,498 --> 00:44:38,878 currency and you know i have my opinion and i think that's bitcoin um yeah i think time will show 481 00:44:38,878 --> 00:44:47,058 yeah absolutely i think we do and does this tie into um i again this all was going on around the 482 00:44:47,058 --> 00:44:53,298 same time like the drive chain um discussion paul stork was putting out i can't remember the number 483 00:44:53,298 --> 00:45:01,438 of the bit off the top of my head uh is that the kind of thing as well that is that this same topic 484 00:45:01,438 --> 00:45:06,758 I think then like the tagline there was we can. 485 00:45:08,498 --> 00:45:11,078 So the argument was you validate. 486 00:45:11,658 --> 00:45:14,838 Paul was saying we can move all the shit coins onto Bitcoin, 487 00:45:15,118 --> 00:45:18,138 settle in Bitcoin and all the other chains will go away and die. 488 00:45:18,318 --> 00:45:19,998 And we can all live happily ever after. 489 00:45:21,038 --> 00:45:27,518 The pushback was you're validating shit coinery and is going to be an explosion 490 00:45:27,518 --> 00:45:30,578 more and we can have another ICO fest. 491 00:45:31,438 --> 00:45:33,818 And a lot of people are going to get wrecked. 492 00:45:34,138 --> 00:45:40,158 And do we actually really want to attract this kind of attention onto the Bitcoin network? 493 00:45:41,098 --> 00:45:42,158 Have I got that right? 494 00:45:42,378 --> 00:45:45,218 Was that kind of the nutshell argument from memory? 495 00:45:46,598 --> 00:45:49,838 I'm confused whenever Paul Stork opens his mouth. 496 00:45:50,618 --> 00:45:55,578 But basically, he's pushing his BIP, which is BIP300, the drive chains. 497 00:45:56,218 --> 00:46:00,878 And essentially, from my understanding, is more blockchains. 498 00:46:01,438 --> 00:46:03,158 These are smaller blockchains. 499 00:46:04,198 --> 00:46:06,998 I don't know that... 500 00:46:06,998 --> 00:46:11,218 Drivechains kind of allow you to move from one blockchain to another, 501 00:46:11,778 --> 00:46:14,118 kind of back and forth through the protocol. 502 00:46:14,498 --> 00:46:16,338 But I'm not comfortable with that 503 00:46:16,338 --> 00:46:19,618 because I don't like having external blockchains 504 00:46:19,618 --> 00:46:22,018 kind of govern what's happening in my blockchain. 505 00:46:22,958 --> 00:46:24,718 I like the consensus rules. 506 00:46:24,718 --> 00:46:27,478 I like how resistant Bitcoin is to changing. 507 00:46:27,478 --> 00:46:32,038 I like the battles that we have about these things. 508 00:46:33,158 --> 00:46:37,178 And, you know, Paul Stork has made a whole lot of comments about lightning. 509 00:46:37,478 --> 00:46:39,978 And it's been kind of unfortunate. 510 00:46:40,138 --> 00:46:42,418 It's been very confusing for a lot of people. 511 00:46:43,278 --> 00:46:47,898 When the technology is legit, it's been in use for a long time. 512 00:46:48,558 --> 00:46:53,778 And so I don't give too much weight to what he's been saying on drive chains. 513 00:46:53,778 --> 00:46:56,678 And, you know, lightning has failed this type of rhetoric. 514 00:46:56,678 --> 00:47:03,578 right okay so i had it yeah i i think i had it pretty much uh but again like i say i think that 515 00:47:03,578 --> 00:47:08,338 was like fired up about two years ago but it's been around again you know i think that was re-fired 516 00:47:08,338 --> 00:47:16,658 up uh from from even earlier than that uh right so what's um with regards to 517 00:47:16,658 --> 00:47:31,317 ambos in the next five years what what is it like you guys because you just said you come out from before you jumped on here you in the board meeting So I won push too hard I sure there some things you guys need to keep under wraps 518 00:47:31,617 --> 00:47:34,077 But what's the roadmap? 519 00:47:36,257 --> 00:47:42,797 Really is getting the first mover to actually issue a stablecoin on Bitcoin itself. 520 00:47:43,237 --> 00:47:45,017 I think it will be massive. 521 00:47:45,217 --> 00:47:49,377 Tether has already indicated their intention to do so. 522 00:47:49,617 --> 00:47:50,797 They've yet to do it. 523 00:47:51,877 --> 00:47:54,177 But the tech is open to anybody. 524 00:47:55,037 --> 00:47:59,857 So I just posted a blog post on how you could actually go mint your own tappered asset. 525 00:48:00,497 --> 00:48:02,517 And I don't care if it's a stable coin. 526 00:48:02,577 --> 00:48:03,617 I don't care what it is. 527 00:48:03,617 --> 00:48:13,257 But I just want to be able to see this technology in action because the smartest people that have been working on this problem. 528 00:48:13,257 --> 00:48:20,297 And this gives us a path forward to not only unlock payments, but also trading without. 529 00:48:21,477 --> 00:48:26,837 Basically, it means that you could do peer to peer trading without using an exchange. 530 00:48:27,097 --> 00:48:32,797 You could keep self-custody the entire time and you could get paid in whatever currency you want. 531 00:48:33,557 --> 00:48:35,417 I think it's incredible. 532 00:48:35,917 --> 00:48:37,977 There's incredible power in that. 533 00:48:37,977 --> 00:48:42,897 And I think Amboss is meaningfully disruptive to the foreign exchange market. 534 00:48:42,897 --> 00:48:45,037 I think that's really where we're headed. 535 00:48:46,517 --> 00:48:51,657 And, you know, I've believed for a long time that Forex, you know, will become software. 536 00:48:52,297 --> 00:48:56,817 And this gives us, this is the technology that we have to make that a reality. 537 00:48:57,757 --> 00:49:04,297 I think a lot of what Amboss does is really report statistics and kind of watch the growth of this whole ecosystem. 538 00:49:04,297 --> 00:49:23,037 And so we've got a lot of things to report, you know, in the future as this ecosystem evolves so that we can just have Bitcoin become not just the store of value, but also the medium of exchange and the just leverage that trustless, neutral nature that Bitcoin has. 539 00:49:24,637 --> 00:49:33,797 Now, you said you, I mean, like the arguments are a feature, not a bug and the consensus rules and whatever else, which brings us to the topic du jour. 540 00:49:34,297 --> 00:49:39,057 which most people have an opinion on by now. 541 00:49:39,777 --> 00:49:46,977 And that's the core decision to raise the op return limit 542 00:49:46,977 --> 00:49:50,477 up to one megabyte, essentially, from 83 kilobytes. 543 00:49:51,017 --> 00:49:55,677 And the opposing argument to that, like, this is crazy, guys, 544 00:49:55,857 --> 00:49:58,797 just step off the gas, let's keep it as it is, 545 00:49:59,277 --> 00:50:03,617 or even go back to the 43 kilobytes, 546 00:50:03,617 --> 00:50:09,617 whatever it was originally these arguments are important to have like you know i completely 547 00:50:09,617 --> 00:50:15,137 agree with you this is a feature not a bug because you can't just have people you know changing 548 00:50:15,137 --> 00:50:21,217 things whether it's consensus rule or policy you've got to have that open debate but this 549 00:50:21,217 --> 00:50:28,697 this particular one at this particular stage of recording this has got a little bit edgy let's say 550 00:50:28,697 --> 00:50:35,697 um how have you seen that from you know from like the lightning side of things how have you seen all 551 00:50:35,697 --> 00:50:43,757 of this kind of boil over and are you keeping a close eye on it do you do you lean one way harder 552 00:50:43,757 --> 00:50:50,997 than the other what's your take yeah well some of it is is a risk because it's going to introduce 553 00:50:50,997 --> 00:50:57,617 confusion um i mean at this point a hard fork is being proposed which i mean remembering back to 554 00:50:57,617 --> 00:51:04,277 2017 and the block size wars, massively confusing for people just getting into this. 555 00:51:04,657 --> 00:51:09,217 They're getting wrapped up in these arguments about what Bitcoin should or shouldn't be. 556 00:51:09,217 --> 00:51:16,377 And so coming to that point is kind of a disappointment that we actually can't, 557 00:51:16,377 --> 00:51:19,797 we're having difficulty coming to consensus on this issue. 558 00:51:20,857 --> 00:51:27,417 But like through that process, it's always educational because I'm learning about things 559 00:51:27,417 --> 00:51:31,997 about what it would mean to be objective or subjective. 560 00:51:33,077 --> 00:51:35,837 If we're going to change how the Bitcoin rules work, 561 00:51:36,417 --> 00:51:38,057 who's going to be making those rules? 562 00:51:38,697 --> 00:51:41,177 Will it be objective or will it be subjective? 563 00:51:41,897 --> 00:51:47,757 And I know the things that are being issued on Bitcoin 564 00:51:47,757 --> 00:51:51,457 or being put on the Bitcoin blockchain are upsetting to a lot of people. 565 00:51:51,457 --> 00:51:57,357 I think there's spam, these accusations of child pornography 566 00:51:57,357 --> 00:52:06,837 being put on there. And, you know, hate to see it. But I've also learned about this whole field 567 00:52:06,837 --> 00:52:13,337 called steganography, which is basically the ability to disguise any type of information 568 00:52:13,337 --> 00:52:20,377 as another type of information. So, and coming to the reality, you know, after seething, 569 00:52:20,937 --> 00:52:26,877 I'm going to have to cope with this, that you can hide whatever you want in a string of characters 570 00:52:26,877 --> 00:52:32,717 either as pub keys or anything that is like fundamental to Bitcoin. 571 00:52:32,997 --> 00:52:35,037 And you can disguise a picture. 572 00:52:35,037 --> 00:52:40,197 You could put spam on the blockchain and there's really nothing I can do to stop you. 573 00:52:41,277 --> 00:52:49,497 And the more I try, the more what I'm learning is I'm introducing subjectivity and centralized 574 00:52:49,497 --> 00:52:51,017 control into the system. 575 00:52:51,017 --> 00:53:00,937 and so you know i've seen the debate um seen it go back and forth and it is exhausting but i have 576 00:53:00,937 --> 00:53:14,976 learned it is yeah it is certainly exhausting and uh i don know how many more years we be dealing with with it You know we can ever see the future and we can ever know what going to happen 577 00:53:15,136 --> 00:53:20,456 I just, I mean, it doesn't kill Bitcoin, obviously. 578 00:53:20,736 --> 00:53:23,796 It might look different, especially if there's a hard fork. 579 00:53:25,176 --> 00:53:26,416 It will divide us all. 580 00:53:26,456 --> 00:53:27,136 It already has. 581 00:53:27,176 --> 00:53:28,096 It will divide us further. 582 00:53:29,456 --> 00:53:33,616 And for the new people coming in, you're 100% correct. 583 00:53:33,616 --> 00:53:40,956 like it's so damn confusing um it's even for people that have been around for a long time 584 00:53:40,956 --> 00:53:50,916 hard to describe hard to you know analogize uh so yeah i don't know what the answer is um 585 00:53:50,916 --> 00:53:59,416 i personally have lent towards not just because i want to i don't i don't want to take part in 586 00:53:59,416 --> 00:54:06,776 relaying spam and crap that people think is fun and just to troll others they're going to put on 587 00:54:06,776 --> 00:54:15,016 the blockchain. So I've stepped out of that. So that's where I am at the moment. And yeah, 588 00:54:15,016 --> 00:54:26,036 who knows, man? It had to happen, I suppose. Everything happens for a reason. And if we're 589 00:54:26,036 --> 00:54:32,656 going to sit back and look at it objectively it's like okay this i guess was destined to happen 590 00:54:32,656 --> 00:54:38,676 and it's happening for a reason we just don't know what that reason is yet and uh you know i 591 00:54:38,676 --> 00:54:46,416 have full faith that in two years time would have moved on we might be arguing about steel or cast 592 00:54:46,416 --> 00:54:53,436 iron pans again rather than you know the foundational money that we have managed to 593 00:54:53,436 --> 00:54:54,636 discover as human beings. 594 00:54:55,836 --> 00:55:01,776 Yeah, even as uncomfortable as like a, you know, drawn out debate has been in Bitcoin, 595 00:55:02,096 --> 00:55:06,696 like we're still much better off than the type of political discourse that I see in 596 00:55:06,696 --> 00:55:09,676 everything else where people can't even talk to each other. 597 00:55:10,216 --> 00:55:18,116 It's really quite amazing that like we're having technical debates and there's real 598 00:55:18,116 --> 00:55:18,776 trade-offs. 599 00:55:19,136 --> 00:55:23,036 There's engineering decisions to be made and strong feelings on either side. 600 00:55:23,036 --> 00:55:26,176 But overall, we're still using the same money. 601 00:55:27,036 --> 00:55:29,396 This is consensus in action. 602 00:55:30,396 --> 00:55:39,136 And it's inspiring to see because even, gosh, like the figuring out, you know, we've got 603 00:55:39,136 --> 00:55:42,776 recurring, we've got blocks coming in every 10 minutes. 604 00:55:43,016 --> 00:55:49,636 We actually got the entire Bitcoin network to agree to actually move forward with the 605 00:55:49,636 --> 00:55:57,556 taproot activation, which is now years in the past. But basically, that was happening at the 606 00:55:57,556 --> 00:56:05,156 same time that a new president was being elected, how contentious that was. But Bitcoin to me is 607 00:56:05,156 --> 00:56:07,716 inspiring because it actually brings about the... 608 00:56:11,996 --> 00:56:14,516 I've lost your audio again. What happened there? 609 00:56:14,516 --> 00:56:21,136 dang yeah it's inspiring you basically said bitcoin is inspiring um yeah 610 00:56:21,136 --> 00:56:28,216 bitcoin isn't inspiring because it gives us a model of uh like what things could be 611 00:56:28,216 --> 00:56:35,056 um if we could get along if we could have debates um and we could arrive at consensus and move from 612 00:56:35,056 --> 00:56:41,316 there so jesse we're reaching the top of the hour so i will wrap this up because i know you've had a 613 00:56:41,316 --> 00:56:49,336 busy day and it's always fun to ask the the final question and that is if you had one last orange 614 00:56:49,336 --> 00:56:58,836 pill left to give to somebody who would you give it to and why i just get one eh um 615 00:56:58,836 --> 00:57:10,916 let's see um i i i think i would i would give it to those close friends um that that basically 616 00:57:10,916 --> 00:57:17,836 they've heard you talk about Bitcoin and you care deeply about them, but they can't tolerate to 617 00:57:17,836 --> 00:57:25,176 hear one more pitch about why you found the answer that sounds so evangelical to them that 618 00:57:25,176 --> 00:57:32,616 they've stopped listening. And I think, yeah, those are the hardest to orange bill. And so if I could 619 00:57:32,616 --> 00:57:38,176 have one cheat code for that, that's what I would choose. Well, look at that. Even you, who's done 620 00:57:38,176 --> 00:57:43,956 so much great work you know with ambos and uh the lightning network you've still got close friends 621 00:57:43,956 --> 00:57:50,036 who aren't paying attention to what you do in your day-to-day it's crazy isn't it like uh 622 00:57:50,036 --> 00:57:54,996 i i suffer the same fate uh you know those nearest and dearest to you 623 00:57:54,996 --> 00:58:04,236 i i guess you know is it like the the the football player that becomes pro and then you know the dad 624 00:58:04,236 --> 00:58:08,816 doesn't go to every single match whereas growing up he did go to every single match like it just 625 00:58:08,816 --> 00:58:14,916 becomes oh yeah he's a pro now like whatever uh i don't know it's weird but um those nearest to 626 00:58:14,916 --> 00:58:20,976 you they don't want to share in in your discoveries and in i guess they're happy for you 627 00:58:20,976 --> 00:58:29,816 that you've got something that you know you can call a job and uh you know pull a wage from 628 00:58:29,816 --> 00:58:37,876 but yeah it's tough very very tough it's the people that care about you the most that they're 629 00:58:37,876 --> 00:58:44,676 like and them caring uh i wish it wasn't so unpleasant but but basically they're gonna 630 00:58:44,676 --> 00:59:02,015 counter you uh on so many things um or kind of just rely on okay well you already you know researched this for me i don need to do my own thinking on this Both of those are just what happens when people are too close 631 00:59:02,015 --> 00:59:08,175 or they care and that they can't be objective about it. 632 00:59:08,755 --> 00:59:08,855 Yeah. 633 00:59:09,235 --> 00:59:13,655 Well, just to hand people off, where can they find you? 634 00:59:14,215 --> 00:59:16,835 And is there any, I mean, are you guys hiring? 635 00:59:16,835 --> 00:59:20,335 Is there any kind of anyone you're looking for? 636 00:59:20,435 --> 00:59:26,415 Any way other people might be able to add value other than spin up a node and point it to, you know, check out Amboss? 637 00:59:27,755 --> 00:59:44,595 Yeah, I think what we're looking for is we're actually making some moves to get some strategic advisors on board to really give us a sense of like what to hedge funds I need expertise in Forex. 638 00:59:44,595 --> 00:59:55,995 And we're really looking to bring on some strategic folks that could really help Amboss as it matures and kind of enters into this new ecosystem. 639 00:59:56,615 --> 01:00:07,515 But people can always find me on x, jestifer underscore BTC, or amboss.tech, A-M-B-O-S-S dot T-E-C-H. 640 01:00:08,035 --> 01:00:12,875 And you can find out about all the products that we've built in this new ecosystem. 641 01:00:12,875 --> 01:00:20,095 and yeah happy to have conversations with folks if any of what I was speaking about was interesting 642 01:00:20,095 --> 01:00:26,515 to them even road construction workers that might want to reach out and you know get if you want to 643 01:00:26,515 --> 01:00:34,855 talk about potholes I'm always here well thank you so much mate for coming on again and I hope 644 01:00:34,855 --> 01:00:39,475 people get in touch if they've got any questions if not they can reach out to me and I'll direct 645 01:00:39,475 --> 01:00:45,675 them your way will you be in person again anywhere before christmas you heading off or have you 646 01:00:45,675 --> 01:00:49,255 closed down like the conferences for the year and looking into the new year 647 01:00:49,255 --> 01:00:57,235 i'm hoping we can stay focused on building uh but yeah open to some uh conference invites uh it's 648 01:00:57,235 --> 01:01:03,335 always good to be able to deliver messages meet people in person so excellent all right well have 649 01:01:03,335 --> 01:01:07,215 a good day jesse and thanks for coming on it's a pleasure daniel thanks so much 650 01:01:07,215 --> 01:01:13,215 well there you go guys thank you so much for listening thank you again jesse for coming on 651 01:01:13,215 --> 01:01:18,695 the show like i said at the beginning here this is going to be a narrative moving into 2026 about 652 01:01:18,695 --> 01:01:25,415 bitcoin becoming a medium exchange because it is inevitable this thing is here now our species 653 01:01:25,415 --> 01:01:34,695 over millennia have always been drawn to and will settle on the best form of money that is available 654 01:01:34,695 --> 01:01:42,515 to us within the marketplace and that right now undoubtedly is bitcoin the thing is only anywhere 655 01:01:42,515 --> 01:01:48,055 between half to one and a half percent of the world understand that right now right so and i 656 01:01:48,055 --> 01:01:53,955 don't think you need to get much more than five percent uh so we we don't i mean like go listen 657 01:01:53,955 --> 01:01:58,715 to parker lewis go read his book it's called gradually then suddenly he's the best person 658 01:01:58,715 --> 01:02:06,555 at explaining this and uh he's got actually he was on cedric's podcast recently bitcoin matrix so 659 01:02:06,555 --> 01:02:11,915 you can go go and find that bitcoin matrix cedric youngleman that's his recent episode with parker 660 01:02:11,915 --> 01:02:16,675 or you can go back and listen to parker on the once bitten podcast he's been on now four or five 661 01:02:16,675 --> 01:02:23,255 times but we did go through a series of chapters from his book and we do deal with this idea that 662 01:02:23,255 --> 01:02:34,175 Bitcoin is inevitable and why why is that because as human beings we will obviously find the best 663 01:02:34,175 --> 01:02:42,115 form of money that is a natural thing for us to do we understand a medium of exchange is the thing 664 01:02:42,115 --> 01:02:49,575 that lifted us out of the caves and into civilizations as we know them and if there's 665 01:02:49,575 --> 01:02:57,355 a better form of money out there, we will find it. It's that simple. That's why Bitcoin will become 666 01:02:57,355 --> 01:03:02,675 a medium of exchange. I don't know what else to say there. And it's all set up like the Lightning 667 01:03:02,675 --> 01:03:08,675 Network is robust. The Lightning Network is decentralized. The Lightning Network is lightning 668 01:03:08,675 --> 01:03:14,875 quick. And it has been in operation for many years already. Go to one of the conferences 669 01:03:14,875 --> 01:03:16,695 and you'll see it in action. 670 01:03:16,975 --> 01:03:21,795 I've been using the Lightning Network to pay for my beers at conferences 671 01:03:21,795 --> 01:03:25,935 or my merch at conferences, buying books, whatever it is, 672 01:03:26,015 --> 01:03:29,815 with the Lightning Network for God knows how many years. 673 01:03:30,075 --> 01:03:32,655 My brother ran a cafe where he was accepting Bitcoin 674 01:03:32,655 --> 01:03:36,455 for his coffee and pastries using the Lightning Network. 675 01:03:36,715 --> 01:03:41,375 This thing is just going to keep growing and growing and growing. 676 01:03:41,515 --> 01:03:42,375 And if you want to learn more, 677 01:03:42,375 --> 01:03:50,495 Go back and listen to the episode I did with Danny Scott and Dave from B-Hodl or Coin Corner, 678 01:03:50,655 --> 01:03:52,415 because they are working for both. 679 01:03:52,795 --> 01:03:55,655 And they talk about the Lightning Network and the Lightning Network becoming a medium 680 01:03:55,655 --> 01:03:56,535 exchanger as well. 681 01:03:57,515 --> 01:04:01,675 BTC Prague, like I said at the beginning, is going to be focused on this topic. 682 01:04:01,835 --> 01:04:08,375 So get over to the website BTC Prague, use the code BITN, get yourself a discount on those 683 01:04:08,375 --> 01:04:08,875 tickets. 684 01:04:09,735 --> 01:04:11,615 And yeah, there's not much left to say, guys. 685 01:04:11,615 --> 01:04:12,795 stack your sats with Relay 686 01:04:12,795 --> 01:04:14,215 take care of your Bitcoin 687 01:04:14,215 --> 01:04:15,595 please get it in self-custody 688 01:04:15,595 --> 01:04:16,675 bitbox.swiss 689 01:04:16,675 --> 01:04:17,575 forward slash biton 690 01:04:17,575 --> 01:04:19,215 paywithflash.com 691 01:04:19,215 --> 01:04:20,715 to start accepting sats 692 01:04:20,715 --> 01:04:22,735 and I said enough about Club Orange 693 01:04:22,735 --> 01:04:23,255 at the beginning 694 01:04:23,255 --> 01:04:24,755 but just to leave you 695 01:04:24,755 --> 01:04:26,355 on another note here 696 01:04:26,355 --> 01:04:29,435 don't be lonely in 2026 697 01:04:29,435 --> 01:04:31,835 go and find your people 698 01:04:31,835 --> 01:04:32,975 on Club Orange 699 01:04:32,975 --> 01:04:35,115 hit the link in the show notes 700 01:04:35,115 --> 01:04:36,115 thanks guys 701 01:04:36,115 --> 01:04:37,015 catch you on the next show