Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.
This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can
around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean
for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so
much for listening. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Once Bitten podcast.
Joining me today is Nelson Inno. He is an El Salvadoran who was living abroad and has been
brought back home by the call of Bitcoin and what is happening in his home country. Really love
this story from nelson he's an entrepreneur he started a company called we spark which helps
innovative design and integration of ai for anything from a government to a private company
and everything in between but he's got obviously a big bitcoin stance on this with his founder
and lots of education around Bitcoin.
And WeSpark have helped co-design another Bitcoin diploma,
Bitcoin Diploma 2.0,
in collaboration with El Salvador's National Bitcoin Office
and is now actively supporting its national rollout into public schools.
So another educational push coming out of El Salvador.
Obviously, first up you had Mi Prima Bitcoin,
which is now in English my first Bitcoin as that's going more global.
And great to see that someone and something is going to be there to help fill the void
if there is any felt as they do more of a global push for my first Bitcoin.
If you want to be involved in Bitcoin education at all, please keep an ear out.
I've got an interview coming up with James Dewar, who went through the My First Bitcoin diploma here in the UK with Huxley, who is like the chief node operator, I suppose, of My First Bitcoin because you've got nodes all around the world.
And it's a great episode.
Please focus on education.
This is what Nelson is focusing on.
He's got a great book as well called Unstable Innovation, doing some incredible work.
And I hope you enjoy this episode.
Before I give a shout out to the show sponsors,
I just wanted to say thank you to everybody listening over on FountainUp.
Last episode, if you remember, I did a shout out,
read out all of the boosts and the messages that have been coming in over the last couple of episodes.
So I'll do that again now.
And that's finished.
The last episode was released with Jake Woodhouse,
who is another Bitcoin podcaster,
who is very active like myself over on Noster and is very much entrenched in the value for value
universe podverse if you will on Fountain app and we put together a two-hour long conversation
he talks about his personal experience with buying a house and then trying to get the
renovations undergo during a massive drawdown home birth exorcism and reincarnation
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Meanwhile, here is Nelson.
all right nelson good to have you here author of unstable innovation a great little book if no
one's heard of it go pick it up it's brilliant i loved it and we'll get into it um and what i love
as well is finding new bitcoiners and having them on the show and uh getting other people exposed
to your work have you been on other pods would anyone have heard of you before on other interviews
um yes but but it's been quite scattered over time to be honest the past year and a half we have been
mostly building and and yeah there's a time for uh coming out and expressing things you know there's
like a message to share but we have been building the past one and a half years different uh bitcoin
products bitcoin infrastructure and what what now is kind of like going around it's not being
interviews yet. I have one next week with the Salvadoran government, but we just published
the Bitcoin Diploma 2.0 to better with the Bitcoin office. So we are responsible to design and now to
continue operating Bitcoin and financial education for an entire nation. And that is really exciting.
So yeah, I kind of feel that, you know, it took some months to plan this, right? And I'm very
honored to be here thank you for the invite uh but everything feels that in life just happens
what it needs to happen so sometimes you're going through a moment and you ask yourself like why me
why now but you look back a few years later and you're like okay that's why and why is so i i used
to like try and piece together with people certain things have happened in our past lives uh not past
lives, excuse me, our careers or maybe childhood, there will be a point where something kind
of set you up to understand Bitcoin once it was presented to you in a certain way.
Do you remember, was there a point in your young life that kind of predisposed you to
understanding one certain aspect of Bitcoin?
so there are two things i guess uh one maybe the most important one has to do with with emotions
so um from my mom i learned to you know try to you know like not not get in conflict with people
and and basically admit when i'm wrong so i'm one of those persons that says sorry very fast
more often than not i say sorry too fast people like i'm not ready to forgive you
right but uh that also is shared with the ability and and and this pre-requirement of
truly understanding bitcoin where you just need to think for a second like well
maybe my view on the world is wrong uh maybe my view on bitcoin is wrong so that definitely plays
a role and the second one was that um and i don't know when this happened and a neighbor went to the
doctor and confirm this but I basically think I might have ADHD or something like that I have some
like lack of attention and sometimes I get obsessed with topics and I can work for 20 hours straight
non-stop and then I just start remembering okay I need to go to the bathroom or something like
this or I need to eat so I forget everything what is essential just not breathing but I just get
obsessed with things and yeah I remember that one really good friend of mine called Abdul from Egypt
gave me a book The Bicon Standard and it took me six months to open it the moment that I open it I
just obsessed with it I went through all of it I started like like everyone else going deep down
the rabbit hole reading everything what I could listen to everything what I could but but yeah
I just think that this ability to get obsessed about things that are interesting is what not only helped me discover Bitcoin,
because that finally happened, not so randomly, it was due to Nayib Bukele.
So he's my president, I'm Salvadoran.
And when he announced that, I was thinking like, okay, working innovation, maybe need to explore this.
So all in all I believe that if I wouldn be so obsessed with things from time to time maybe I would have explored Bitcoin a little bit but I would have never just said like oh I really want to understand this
And then I need to understand this.
And then it's like, I need to know more.
But maybe that's really important for anyone that listens.
Super honest, I went into Bitcoin just like anyone else,
thinking like, wow, I'm going to make lots of money.
right so it was this uh greed uh what what pushed me in then second and i mentioned it
briefly just just before that that we met in madeira but it was at the madeira event that i
just saw something that i never experienced before so i've been to several was madeira the
first time you've been around like uh bitcoiners on mass and seen and yes and when it's bitcoin
only because I've been in other events that were not Bitcoin only.
And the difference was day and night.
In the other places, everyone is chilling and anxious and hyping and shouting.
And then I just, you know, like the setting, it was so beautiful.
And shout out to Andre for organizing that on his entire team.
It was just incredible place.
But you arrive, you have the zone, you have the sea.
It's an island for people out there.
And then everyone is so relaxed.
There's real good food.
There's real good conversations.
Everyone is so kind.
There are children running around.
There are a lot of people with babies.
There's a key stage in fact.
This is like open sourcing.
So it was so much input at the same time.
And when I say like some input, I mean that input that enters without you thinking about it.
But all in all, I just felt, wow, this feels right.
there's something around everyone here in this culture that I truly like and I want to pursue it.
So, and then through understanding more and more about Bitcoin,
I basically heard about Nayib Bukele and Bitcoin Law in El Salvador.
I said, like, I'm going to learn about this.
And like many others, I started on the wrong end.
And it took me about two years to come to the conclusion that I believe that eventually anyone has to push
a lot of time in, yeah, we were right.
And that's like Bitcoin only.
And then it was that phase, you know, like you went from grid to, okay, these people are
super cool.
I want to be like them too.
Wow, this is something really nice, but it only works as long as people are actively
doing it.
And that's what convinced me to start volunteering and eventually volunteering led me to meet
the right people.
Like my partner, Adam Lilly at WeSpark.
and now we are really truly building infrastructure education services that help with Bitcoin adoption.
So it's kind of like the short story about it.
And it all has to...
So you are El Salvadorian? You live in El Salvador? You've lived abroad?
Like what's happened there?
So I was born and raised in El Salvador when I was 18 years old.
I moved to Germany and I felt like I'm going to stay here forever, never coming back.
You might have heard before, but El Salvador was a very dangerous place.
In fact, it was the most dangerous country in the world during the 2010s.
And yeah, there were even countries at war that were less dangerous than El Salvador.
So back then, it seemed almost impossible for me to think about coming back here.
But so much has changed.
The El Salvador that I left doesn't exist anymore.
the germany that i decided to go to doesn't exist anymore so the two countries are very very
different and around one and a half years ago after 15 years in germany i just noticed well
things have changed and germany is like like flopping slowly and on sabato is just entering that
that exponential curve at the beginning of anything that is compounding right you don't
see it so well but as an entrepreneur you have a view of the world that kind of like shows you what
what's what's what's ahead so yeah I decided to come back and it's been the the best decision
my entire life so far that's amazing so what's uh what were you doing in Germany what was the
the career that you were building over there so you know back then I was a a kid I went to the
school that my parents sent me they sent me to the to the German school it's a private school but
that was the only private school that they could afford because it was subsidized 80 percent by
by the German government so I learned German I went through that torch
then I learned English and when I was graduating I basically had the the choice to to to study in
Germany and I I took it I was so excited about it I went and studied engineer because my father
is an engineer, but maybe also have played a role.
It helps you understand Bitcoin a little bit on the technical side, even though that's
not what caught me specifically.
It was more like what it could do for the people what caught me.
And maybe the little Bitcoin book plays a big role there.
But going back to that, I was just like a normal kid.
I was listening to my parents.
I still do.
Now I just filter.
um but I went there I studied and eventually um I started working in airlines I worked in airlines
for like four years I worked in other companies IT uh started with an internship at Siemens in
manufacturing then Microsoft so I've been all around all around the place you know just testing
stuff going to different departments but what really caught my attention was when I first
started working in innovation. So when I was back in Lufthansa, I was building these innovation
departments and strategies for multiple Lufthansa groups. Lufthansa is a German airline for the
ones that don't know, but I was building these innovation departments and strategies for the
entire company, even like physical innovation hubs or rooms, innovation spaces. So I believe
all those things prepare me to that moment
where I first heard about Bitcoin.
I just felt that it was my responsibility,
both as a Salvadorian and someone who is supposed
to be on the innovation side
and exploring what's going on in the world
to at least understand Bitcoin at a very basic level.
So I'm expecting maybe to go four to 10 hours into it,
maybe a day or two.
Then I just knew it's like,
okay, I'm going to be exploring this for some weeks
and weeks turn into months and months turn into years and here we are Daniel.
So you talk about innovation that that's the name of the book unstable innovation the fragile state
most will never understand so what are you trying to grab the reader's attention with yeah so I mean
there's some things about about the book and I will spoil one of them and you know and it has
to be with Bitcoin. But at first, I just want people to, you know, read some sort of statement
that the clinic bothers them. It's like, what? What do you mean that I will not understand? I'm
not most people. I will grab that book. But that's for the people that read the subtitle. A lot of
people just pick a book based on how it looks. And yeah, on stable innovation, what I try to
express there is that the natural like the natural atmosphere or stage where innovation happens is
when when things are unstable where there are some problems to solve um so yeah it's i don't know it's
it's very it's very crazy because that name just came is what one of like the first like two three
names that i thought about the book and it just it just made sense right away so i started with
a cover and then when I had the cover I said like okay now I will write this book this is really
exciting it was the second time that I tried to write a book about innovation the first time was
like four years earlier and I wrote 10 pages and then I didn't know what to do next so today I just
know that I had to learn more and to yeah yeah just have more experience and something like a
clear message to tell and that's that's what happened so that's why you have the you know the
the guy with the helmet that's a friend of mine with all the whiz band gadgets on the top uh yeah
exactly yeah and that's like a metaphor that innovation is all about mindset i mean if you
have some sort of innovation gadget you don't have like a watch or some innovation boots or
an innovation pack a backpack it's an innovation helmet because you know if you change your head
then you change everything else so um that that's what i was trying to show both from the title the
subtitle and the image. When I was working just on innovation topics before, I was a little bit
angry when I started the company because I saw so many consultants talking about this topic and
I see a lot of blah blah and no actions and I feel like well first of all this is more about
culture than anything else. I started you know instead of focusing on certain certifications
or processes I started checking okay what do people think and then you know I will go to the
companies and basically tell them all sum up well you say that you want to do innovation but
your employees are scared of it because if they do something and they fail they feel that you
will fire them so let's start there and then we can talk any anything else right so yeah and those
are some of the things that i uh touch in the book but um i mean as you know it's more about
philosophy at the end so because i believe that philosophy is what gives you a structure in life
on how to act and react to things that are going on and how you like how how you perceive that is
kind of like that mindset behind yeah and i'm hoping that you know the entrepreneurs of tomorrow
are going to pick up this kind of book like this is the kind of book that somebody going to be drawn to if they got an inquisitive mind and they looking to solve problems and they want that little impetus
And then you round it out with the philosophy and mix that with the Bitcoin ethos and sound money and talking about how that is an innovation in itself.
Yeah. So I was inspired by Jeff Booth, The Price of Tomorrow.
so if you think about it you analyze this is kind of like a the price of tomorrow just simpler and
a little bit more open so I enjoy the price of tomorrow a lot but I feel that you there's a lot
of pre-requirements to it it's very technical it can go into into details quite fast there are some
topics that are lightly touched but you need to know a lot I mean you need to have spent maybe
like 20, 40 hours learning about those topics to truly appreciate.
If you do, it's awesome.
That's why everyone loves it.
I love it myself.
So I was inspired by it and I was also inspired by the little Bitcoin book.
They make, you know, Bitcoin more understanding, like from the human side.
It's kind of like, seems like a natural development.
So I wanted to mix both.
The idea of mentioning Bitcoin late in the book, first just developing this narrative
of what's going on in the world.
I think that the world is going to get a little bit harder
before there's abundance.
It's just what happens naturally
when you have a lot of like big transitions.
We are doing a transition.
We are in the middle of a transition.
And then I wanted to mix it with making things simple.
So that's why, I mean, English is also not my first language.
So I couldn't, even if I wanted to make it sound more complex,
whatever, I can.
So that was the idea, make a simple book.
and just introduce people to some of the topics
and the tools that they might need in the future.
But I mean, all is made so that people
that are feeling anxious or stressed
or that there's too much going in the world,
that they have just a tiny space,
a tiny place where they can understand
why the world seems to be moving so fast,
why the world seems to be so stressful and so unstable.
and just understand that that's okay and that's normal and that if you just narrow down everything
what you're doing and you just discover those things that you really want to change or that
or those topics that really speak to you then everything gets easier and this book in a way
I wrote it so that people can hold me accountable for what I'm saying because I changed my entire
life following all of that since I published the book and it's been an upgrade.
I can say that.
Sorry.
There's a story in here as well, which I think people appreciate you sharing.
Very personal about your near death experience and the moment of life that flashed between
your eyes as you were almost at the point uh do you take uh do you want to give us that story
exactly what happened absolutely so it's i mean it's very crazy because you know like uh
it's just in the past about a year and a half that i that i truly became a spiritual person again
but that story happened here in El Salvador
so there's this
riptides, this like
southern currents that you find in the shores
and the beaches in El Salvador
and dozens of people
die in El Salvador
they just go swim
the sea looks beautiful
it looks blue
the sun feels nice
warm on your skin
the water is salty of course
and you're just enjoying there
and without noticing you can easily just get caught in one of them and in this in this time
a one very close friend of mine he's actually the husband of one of my best friends um
he got caught in a in a current and we were basically batting and enjoying and jumping like
just just just enjoying the waves right next to him maybe 30 40 meters i can recall just know that
I could see him and I asked him like hey come here you know it's it's dangerous to be alone
and then we continue swimming well not swimming but just like playing in the water
at hip height and then I look again maybe a minute after and he's in the same place and I
know instantly like okay I mean he told me he's coming but he's in the same place so something is
wrong and the instant um yeah the instant idea that i had is that not idea but but conclusion
was like okay he must be in a riptide so that's why he can move and it was crazy because he was
even closer to the shore than we were so we started walking back as a group um and at some
moment I spot that the water around two meters in front of him two meters around six feet by the way
for the people that you don't use a metric system um yeah it just like my foot just goes very very
quickly uh it feels like it's just there's more depth right uh it's no shallow anymore and I just
go back I tell the others okay there's a current here uh we have to be careful let's make a line
let's grab our hands and then we can just do this like a human chain and extend ourselves and then
just grab his hand we put it back because we could stand right next to him like the water
was maybe even a little bit below our hips so i mean there's nothing that could go wrong right
and there's this this this other person was invited by my friend um i don't even remember
his name and I have only seen him on that day
he was the bigger
one
and he was the taller one as well
and I asked him to stay in the back so that there's more
weight in the back
and he had very
high time forever
I can explain it today for
Bitcoiners but
he was anxious because we were
trying maybe for a minute and our hands
weren't like in the movies
we were getting so close to pulling
my friend back
And he just got anxious. He just left the hand from the one. He went from the back to the front and said, I'm going to grab him. And he just goes in this kind of hole.
and there's a wave and he posed the person that was there was first and suddenly all of us are in
the river so now we are like five people um yeah drowning basically because there's there was lots
of splashes everywhere it was it was it was crazy it was so sudden just like a minute before we were
enjoying and then we are in a survival situation right away and none of us is like prepared for
that in that moment so somehow the other guys go out and it's just Borja this other big guy and me
in the riptide and it's weird because I feel that you know I feel a lot of pain I feel the pain that
you feel in your lungs when you're just swallowing water and and then I also feel their pains like
I'm getting hit and this is like a lot of chaos I don't know what's going on and it took a few
seconds to figure out but this big guy who just said like okay I'm gonna play hero now
he was he was drowning and he was drowning because he couldn't swim and yeah for for for
for some time it was like okay we are going to die here and and it happened so fast but in a moment
Borja was out um he was so close already maybe we we hope he'll find where it was like a where
it was shallow water but yeah I just remember that some of me it was just him and me and and
I had darkest the darkest thought that I ever had in my life I feel I regret just thinking about this
and it's crazy because it's been maybe 15 years or 12 years it's been more than a decade and I
and I regret thinking about it because for a second I thought like well I can swim so you know
I don't have to die here and yeah I just I just felt kind of like bad about it and then he's kind
of like hitting me in some moment and and I swallow more water and then Daniel this is the
craziest thing and when I tell this I I think like okay am I here like a absolute crazy person
i wasn't lost i didn't like consume any alcohol or anything else but i can tell you that i went
away for half an hour an hour but i saw my life from the third perspective as it continued after
i saw my way and it's crazy i was sitting with my family having dinners and the food didn't taste
like anything no one was talking it was all like like life lost color when we met with the friends
from from that that knew him it was it was all weird forever it i don't know it was it was so
weird because i i went through through all those scenes and it took way way longer than the time
that i was there so some people might might imagine it that maybe i had you know lack of oxygen
whatever. Yeah, that's a way to explain it. But I told you it was somewhere else.
And through that story, I just noticed that it's absolutely not worth it. You know, there is no
dimension where I decide to swim away So I am back and I back like drowning but this time I very calm because I made a decision and the decision is like even the two of us swim out of here
and we go back to the shore and we continue with our lives already asked for the two of us there
And that made me so calm.
And in that calmness, I just left him, you know, because it wasn't enough for him to have his head like this.
He was trying to get his entire body out of the water.
I'm talking like he would like to walk on the water if possible.
So he would press me down and so on.
so I was just so calm and I just knew that I need to think straight and for for a second I can be
anxious I can be I can be stressed I just need to be calm and I just feel his legs just going
higher and higher on my body he's pushing me down basically like standing on on me
and at some moment I had the nicest feeling physical feeling in my life it's not pleasurable
is just it just gave me direction for the first time i just knew what to do so clearly i just fell
sand with within my thumbs uh within my like a like in my feet i was we were like drowning maybe
two and a half three meters of water difficult to say that's like six nine feet so in that moment
I just imposed myself
went up
got some air
went down
and I had the idea to just like grab him
from the butt and walk
because I could stand
so and he's not that
heavy because we are in the water and in salt water
so I just started walking
in the direction where I knew there was trouble
and at some moment
I just press him and I just
just just feel how he's walking out and i was so calm and then i come out of the water when i go
out of the water he's like i mean back to the surface it's like 100 meters away he went to the
shore back to to our parents like oh it was crazy that was his reaction um but i was calm
um for the first time i just noticed what was going around my parents and the parents from my
friends everyone they were in the short is like going back and forth asking for help screaming
seeing what to do and then for the first time I just hear my father say me Nelson don't swim
against the current don't swim against the current and then in this moment I got angry
and I decided to just swim against the current with everything what I got so I just swam out of
it but you know like I was so calm and then I had this adrenaline it was it was it was crazy
and it took me more than a decade to notice how much that moment meant in my life like my parents
told me like don't talk about this ever um because I told them about it's like people will think
you're crazy and and yeah so I didn't talk about it for most of the time but when I was writing
the book I truly asked myself is like what is the most impactful moment of truth in my life
what is that moment that defined who I am more than everything else and yeah couldn't lie to
myself I had to write the the truth and it was that moment so I've done many things that define
me like we all do but if I ask myself is what was the most important moment in my life that will
have changed who I am entirely that that was it uh because you know you can say like well I try to
be a good person uh some people just say i'm a good person but i said like i try to be but when
action means that maybe you have to just sacrifice your life and so on i didn't really
think about it i mean and i got pushed in what i call today a divine way because i'm sure i
couldn't have come to that conclusion on my own back then um yeah so it all plays a role and that
moment just changed changed my life and till today uh i mean nobody's perfect and definitely i'm not
perfect i have done things that i regret again even after that but you know at least i i try to
to be that person that is there for others and the book in a way is the same that's why the book is
for free someone's go goes to unstableinnovation.com you can just put a fake email even
like a temporary email download the book like zero zero sats um yeah like basically you know
had since the moment that i wrote it i had the idea that i need to to spread this message uh
and i knew that the book being free was part of that so yeah that's that's that's kind of like
the background story behind it yeah no it's uh yeah sorry maybe i extended too long but no no
you didn't you didn't and uh so was the advice to not talk about uh that moment coming from a place
of um like worry that you would sound a bit crazy that you might have in your mind visited another
dimension or something like that like what was the kind of rationale behind don't talk about it
don't tell anyone and i guess i mean yeah you you're a dad right so you always want the best
for for for your daughter um so my parents they always want the best for me and my sisters
and I mean they have some sort of logic and they think this is the best thing to do
you know Salvador I feel that people care more about what others say than in other countries
it's a collectivist country in Germany people are more individual okay so those are the cultures
that I know the best um yeah so they just they just they just told me but in a way something that
empowered me a lot and that happened through my 20s was the yeah just the ability to not really
think about what others are saying and just you know like live the life in in the way that I want
because if I'm doing things for others and I don't enjoy them,
then everyone loses.
And if I'm doing things that I like,
well, at least I guarantee that I'm going to enjoy my life.
So that's the only one that we know that we have,
at least here on earth.
So, okay, I might as well do something that I want.
And as long as I don't do something bad to anyone else
and I try to support as many as I can
and with the projects that I do,
then, I mean, yeah.
I was there to lose.
So yeah, that changed a lot.
And it got amplified by the whole Bitcoin culture
because I started seeing everything in the system
with new eyes.
Now it's not just Bitcoin anymore.
It's a life-changing path.
And Bitcoin is just the channel.
Bitcoin is not the end goal.
It's what enables us to follow that path.
so I don't know everything comes together in in a beautiful way at the end I feel when when you
start seeing those things so it's not that I'm careless today but uh I really don't don't think
too much like okay what's going to happen if I think that the output is is positive for for the
people around me for the ones that are interacting with whatever we're building then yeah we just
build it amazing you said that moment took um well brought you to spirituality i think is uh
is what you said or something along those lines yeah it's clearly something you you still think
about yeah so i will be very direct with this um i didn't have much spirituality i mean my
i was raised christian catholic by my parents but yeah did i really feel something i don't know
not really i mean not not in a relevant way it wasn't until i was 33 years old that i started
going that route.
Bitcoin also play a rule.
There were two things.
One is I had a big project
that didn't work out.
It was, you know,
like not a Bitcoin only project.
I wanted it to be Bitcoin only,
but that failed like crazy.
It raised all the savings
that I had in my life
in three months.
We managed to grow
this basically mini job platform
from zero to over 110,000 users.
in months. I was working hard 120 hours a week. So I was basically like sick in my soul, in my head,
physically. And when that all came crashing down, there was a moment that I knew it's like, okay,
there's some things to change. And I remember that I just went down on my knees and said like,
God, if you're there, you know, please help me out. Just show me what to do. I cannot solve this
on my own i you know from a business plan from from the rational part it didn't make sense how
things happen and so on it was it must have been something different and i said like uh
just tell me clearly because i'm a dumb person what to do and i started doing those things
and it's crazy because they come as as thoughts sometimes randomly and it's hypothetical like
go to this place find a person wearing a yellow cap and talk with them and then it's like somehow
I found myself in that place and there's somehow a place a person wearing a yellow
cup and I just know like well I can't ignore this so then this takes you into a conversation that
this is another conversation that ended up in business or ended up in in you know learning
something new and you know maybe anyone can go and explain these things with okay I mean there's
a chance that someone was and maybe this place like people that go to this place are generally
thinking like you whatever right but how i explain it's like you throw a coin and you know that it's
going to be heads and you throw the coins not tell it's heads and then you throw it again and you
throw it again when you throw the coins a thousand times and it's always heads that's mathematically
i mean so improbable that that there must be another explanation about it
i'm even writing a book about about a specific chapter from the bible lucas lucas 15
And if I tell you all the people that came around for this to happen in the most crazy, unexpected ways, it's impossible to believe in coincidence.
So, yeah.
But one other thing that I said that the player role, and I mentioned Bitcoin is, so I was trying to teach my mother about Bitcoin.
And there's this book, and I forget the name of the author, and I feel wrong.
they have in the back it's called the the bitcoin jesus connection or the jesus jesus bitcoin
connection so i just decided to you know give it to my mom so that she learns more about bitcoin
but before before i did um i read about a third of it no i believe i was on the on the plane flying
back from germany to salvador i was like oh well why not you know i want to see what i will give to
my mom and then i was thinking like okay so oh jesus seems like a really cool person i will have
loved to be his friend or at least around him or at least listen to him once there's so many
principles that that have to do with with with bitcoin and with in general just trying to be a
good person that i that i truly love and yeah you know and then i throw the coin again and its heads
once again so i can i cannot explain it with words it's it's so unfair so that book that i'm
writing is a theater um it's a it's a play oh nice so yeah and my girlfriend today
someone an absolute randomly she comes from a line of family that is extremely well known in
country for writing and acting in theater plays yeah and i knew about this project before i met her
so it's yeah yeah oh look gg said many many moons ago there are no such things as coincidences
and yeah the the longer i've been around bitcoin and the synchronicities that keep happening
and I can't ignore it anymore.
And yes, you can explain it away, of course.
You go to a conference and, of course,
the same kind of like-minded people are going to be there.
And yes, of course, you're going to have the same common kind of interest
and then you might end up meeting a business partner,
which is why we always say get to conferences.
Go get to conferences or go to your meetup and meet people.
Yeah.
So will the play, will you weave Bitcoin into that as well?
No, that one is specifically about this package, sorry, passage.
I believe that's how you say it in English, called Lucas 15,
which is about a brother that leaves his family with part of the money that was his inheritance.
And he goes out, gambles it, spends it on, let's say like bad things.
and then eventually he returns feeling that he's going to be rejected only to be
hugged by his father and accepted back and it's like a big metaphor that um
yeah that the god is is going to take you back if you if you want it and that's that's been my
my entire life story at the end went far away
I did lots of things I gambled I mean the projects are best at the end right
and then I lost everything and when I came back and asked for forgiveness and for help
it was it was it was it was there and everything just yeah everything has been just
changing like like the trend like in the direction that things are changing it's just
so incredibly good uh and in a way my my partner adam uh he also helped me edit the book
adam really he gave me that structure and i can sum it up and say that before i was looking for
quantity you know now you're super quality you can't even think about this from a work perspective
blockchain stuff and so on now it's bitcoin only before i was you know just in the middle of chaos
just looking for all that noise you know i needed that noise to not to not be stressed you know to
not be anxious because i was i was extremely anxious when they were silent i needed to do
something i need to hear something i need to watch something i need to learn something i need to do
something and today I'm I just found calmness I can send you a picture I live in the middle of
nature when I go out of the balcony of the terrace everything I hear is the river the wind and the
trees and birds that's it's amazing and I don't know like to the front of the sides I don't have
a single neighbor it's just it's just nature and the last part and that the last thing that I learned
is that I was trying to accelerate all the time.
I even told myself, it's like, oh, you work with innovation.
So you need to know everything was new.
You need to test it out.
So I was going all random directions,
trying to go as fast as possible.
And for the first time in my life, I can go slow.
And it took us quite some time with Whisper,
the innovation agency where Adam and I now work
as partners together, took some time.
but at the beginning of last year on the sixth anniversary from we spark that was on the 21st
march nice nice number uh uh adam adam joined the team and it took us some time to truly filter out
everything we were doing removing a lot of noise we were doing like metaverse 3d stuff and so on
and yeah now we focus and narrow on the things that that matters the most not only for us but
also for our past clients and definitely our future classes education so yeah it just feels
it just feels so nice and i have to say that that spiritual journey is also part of it
how would you explain we spark uh elevator pitch yeah so we spark is an innovation agency
our clients they have problems such as they feel that they are stuck or lost
the symptoms are we are not selling as much or we're losing customers or we know that we need
to act on this but we don't know how or where to start and we help them with that and we narrow the
innovation services to three different things.
One is education, and that's basically like our main focus now.
That means we're building visual, engaging, interactive education,
both presidential and physical, as well as digital.
Second is we're doing training.
So in the form of workshops, interactive workshops,
we have one, the beacon workshop as well,
that's going to come out very, very soon as well.
Most likely by the time that it comes out, the website and everything will be up.
So what we do is we compress learning.
We're trying to find that balance, right?
Like how much can we teach someone just focusing on the relevant stuff in how little time?
and with three hours three hours very structured i believe that i can i can we can teach uh maybe
80 to 90 percent of what we know about bitcoin to someone that's new in a way that they will be
right from the from the beginning you know that matters to them so that's the second part training
and the third part is everything what we call the like the generic innovation services and that is
mostly developing new products or services.
We always mix AI now because it will be responsible
not to at least think, how could AI help here?
Definitely in a responsible way,
or we try that it's in a responsible way.
Not trying to just go for the,
let's automate everything and let things run on its own.
I mean, we check where it makes sense.
We want to build things that last for a long time.
And there's a lot of Bitcoin principles and philosophy that are part of the company today.
You know, just as, you know, the don't trust, verify on Bitcoin.
You could see that from the Bible or Jesus side, such as, you know, he would say like,
well, you have eyes, come and see, you know.
And then from our perspective, we want people to be independent.
So we don't develop products or services where people depend from us.
everything what we deliver is supposed to be a one-time package do you need more support
of course we're still there for you but the outcome that we are looking for is that our
customers learn how to do whatever we build for them so that they can do it on their own others
rely on giving just a fragment so that they come back and then you do more business so is this a
wise business decision i don know i not the best ceo but it feels right and you know people like it So what we hope is that when they are finished that they ask
wow, guys, we really like this.
What else can you do?
And that's what has been happening recently.
And we are very happy.
It's from any kind of business sector, right?
It's not people that are looking to get up to speed on what Bitcoin is.
but that gives you the perfect opportunity to then have that discussion.
Yeah. So yeah, Bitcoin in a way is a topic that we love.
We have passion for it. We see it as an enabler.
We also understand that not everyone is prepared for it.
There's a few things that, and moments where you're more open for it.
I mean, when you're having financial trouble
or where you just finally understand
that there must be something wrong.
It cannot be, okay,
why if inflation is now down in comparison
to last year, why are prices even higher?
Those kind of things.
You know, yeah, there are some moments
and you need to be very responsible
on how you do it,
like how you approach the topic.
There's one particular moment in my life
that reminds me of that.
That was in Frankfurt.
I don't know if you ever saw that building
like the European Central Bank
with a big Bitcoin log on it,
with a projector.
Yes, absolutely.
So a lot of people think that this was done with AI,
but I was there, Daniel.
That was one of the moments
where I started ignoring other stuff
and I wanted to go Bitcoin only
because there was a...
I remember in this moment,
I heard two or three days before
in a Bitcoiners chat that this might happen.
And this moment, we were in front of a car,
a very luxury car with the doors open,
with a private driver.
And there was this important blockchain founder,
let's call it blockchain founder,
who he invented the aggregator system and so on.
And he wanted to invite us to his private party.
He had rented like a penthouse.
And I had on my message this message
that this might be happening.
it was a rumor and and these people are like no come come here and so on and back then it would
have been a big business opportunity but i just i just had this idea that one day when i become a
father and i hope that sooner rather than later the one day i'm going to take to tell my children
the first time that the beacon logo was on the european central bank i was there
and it was it was kind of like a gamble right it's like i don't even know if it's going to happen
so there's there were like three buildings that people who rumor that they were going to happen
and then suddenly i'm walking with maybe 40 people it's crazy because we were carrying these
these big boxes like with the projectors but you know it looked like like the same boxes that you
have in military you could have like four bazookas in each of them and there's this like guy comes
with with the big gun like from the european central bank like security guy's like hey what
are you doing there i'm translating from german and everyone is silent and then just imagine like
the tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of of human development to hear the answer
nothing
okay
and he goes back
so we continue walking
go to the front of it
and we start setting the projector
and I was very nervous because
I just feel like well this is real
and I'm going back to the exact point
but I feel like well this is real
if I can see the Bitcoin logo for one second
I don't even need a picture of it
I have seen this with my own eyes
and it was surreal because it took
we were there for like an hour
and no one came to stop us
and there was a party
and some people were drinking beers
and we had music
and we were just a bunch of Bitcoiners
having fun and enjoying the moment
it was surreal
but what really sticked to my mind is that
it was not only the Bitcoin logo
or that Bitcoin logo was saying Bitcoin
it didn't say buy Bitcoin
or something
it said study Bitcoin
and that felt so right i mean it's the shortest message or advice the shortest sentence that i
can imagine that made sense for that you know you're going to have to to select the minimum
words study bitcoin is the right one so yeah most people when when they first approach you they are
like okay so yeah okay let's keep that how do we buy bitcoin and it's like i'm not going i'm not
going to tell you how to how to buy bitcoin it's like why not but do you have it come it's like
well i might have and i was like yes i have a little bit of bitcoin but but but that's not the
whole point you know the point is that that you understand why it exists at least minimum you
understand why it exists you don't even need to understand how it works but at least learn why it
exists you know or ask me i'm happy to know you and then you will eventually learn how to buy but
but yeah like in this for example in this a curse with a diploma is the first modern finance plus
bitcoin curse so at the beginning we are just giving a finance a like financial education
foundation because it's to kids imagine if you go to bitcoin with a fiat mindset
then nothing changed you just magnify the problems so yeah study bitcoin is one of my favorite phrases
and it is one thing that i saw with my eyes and maybe it was the moment and everything but it
really it really is stick it continues to stick with me i just know that that's the
the right approach and in a way that influenced why we are specifically focusing on on Bitcoin
education and now just a coin telegraph just like like tweeted or how do you say exposed it about us
or whatever uh and they did it for free the last time that I was working on those other projects
trying to grow it we we paid over 70,000 bucks for an article so it kind of like it's a measurement
it's only two points to measure right but in a way it just tells us we must be doing something
right for this to happen uh yeah so that's what's going on it must have been the same guys
that pulled the stump i think it was prague 2023 uh that i was there and word goes around that
they're gonna show the sign up on the the czech national bank and everybody sure enough the rumors
the rumor mill goes and you go there at the set time and you bump into all these other bitcoiners
that are there like is it gonna happen is it you're looking around and you don't know where
the actual guys are with the projection unit and everything yeah and boom suddenly it's there and
you're like wow it's so cool yeah and you know it's beautiful it is a beautiful building right
you know because the architecture and then after that after like standing around 45 minutes just
talking Bitcoin, looking at that sign.
We walk through the old town, loads of us, like you were explaining.
You know, we're a mob now.
You know, there's 50 people or more.
And some of the guys are carrying the equipment.
We walk all the way through the old town to the Kingchild Bridge.
And we get on the, I'd say about a third of the way onto the bridge.
And then they set it up and they shine it back up on the archway to the bridge there.
It's one of the main tourist areas.
And this is June, so it's late.
It's like 10, 10.30, 11 o'clock.
It's dark, but it's still packed.
And you just look around and people must be thinking,
what's this mob of people doing just standing around talking,
you know, in the middle of a bridge?
And what does that sign mean?
You have no idea, like, the impact, the ripple effects,
the butterfly effect that have, you know, on people.
So with the diploma, let's talk about that.
What is it?
What have you set up?
And what's the passion project?
Because Bitcoin projects are passion projects.
They're very rarely going to make somebody money.
So there's a mix of two things here.
One is I'm Salvadoran.
You will even find articles that I wrote a long time ago
and lots of evidence that I've been volunteering a lot.
before you know i just feel that i need to to do something for my country i i left my country
and i had opportunities that at the end being honest like most people never have they can only
dream about if at all so if i go out of the country and i learn all these things i need
to give something back to my people to the country where i was raised um
and yeah if you think about it designing designing education for a nation
is possibly the highest the highest action that you can do when you when you compare it in you
know like the impact that it has and the effort that it takes so so it just felt that that we
need to do this and then beacon was already like like like my passion you know so when when this
came around, the Bitcoin office wanted to have the next version of the Bitcoin diploma.
And we were there at the right place at the right time. And in a crazy way, it's like,
we were not, when we first talked with the Bitcoin office, we were not approaching about Bitcoin.
That just happened when Stacy asked me what else we doing And so on And I told her oh well we and yeah she showed me no she asked me specifically like like what like if I do something in the Bitcoin space because she has seen me a couple
of times at events and I said like well I mean just volunteering contributing a little bit
visualizing because like what's her visualization and I have my my surface device like this is kind
of like tablet and I just start showing her all the visualizations but these are not a visualization
like take the beacon logo and redraw it or simple things.
These are visualizations that take like a mechanic,
something that is complex,
and then that really helps explain what's going on.
In a way, it's weird.
I would like to show you.
I might send you some pictures if that helps.
I don't know if it will help to put them in this moment
here in the podcast,
but what was going on is we decided to create
this tiny graph with x and y axis and it basically says okay how difficult or easy is this to
understand and second is how essential how important is this that people truly get this
so if something is very difficult and is you know it's imperative you really need to understand this
to be able to understand bitcoin work on bitcoin defend bitcoin whatever then we prioritize to
visualize this stuff because you know if something is extremely easy to to understand and it's not
really essential we are not going to visualize because it you know it's not really well placed
in this like effort graph so what we do is just check for those more complex mechanics that are
truly uh important and we try to understand them and and get to the point that we could explain it
to someone that is five or eight years old,
and then we draw that.
And then we explain that in adult words,
but still being simple.
So when people ask me,
okay, so what's the difference in doing something
for kids, for teenagers, or for adults?
I usually say that for teenagers and adults,
it's almost the same.
You develop it for teenagers first,
and the only thing that you change
so that you make it for adults is the examples.
if you want to have
let's say that
if you want to explain
someone that they are feeling inflation
to a kid you talk about
the sandwich the cafeteria
school they changed
the price it's no longer
$250 now the sandwich is
$350
you know
and then that's something that is relatable to a kid
like okay you want to go out on a date
and you need to invite your girlfriend
or this like tip that you like, you know.
Well, the chocolates and the coffee
are more expensive than before.
So these are relatable to children.
So now you talk about the supermarket,
you talk about, you know,
how salaries have not gone that much,
but prices in their everyday life have gone.
So that is what happens on that part.
So we decided for teenagers
and then we just, you know,
we add even a few more things,
like more topics that can be seen more complex,
but they are still simple.
And we change the examples.
For kids, on the other hand,
you also do the design for the teenagers.
And what you do is you try to capture the principles.
What's what we're trying to teach at the end, you know?
Okay, that there's, you know,
if it's big conversational fiat,
it's that there is better money, you know?
and that's the first thing that you want them to understand like you know you can choose what
money you use at the end and there's better money out there and there are some principles and then
you just you speak the the the easier part so it's more about the design for teenagers you
told it into principles and you cut down a lot and you just stick to it and then as as kids are
progressing then you add a little bit a little bit more until i feel that 13 to 15 years old
is when you have the switch that if you do education focusing on making it extremely
comprehensive not like an authority that this is it this is how we are the authority it's written
in the book so it must be true no but more just like appeal to those things that the kids can
understand and so on i feel that between 13 and 15 year old you can start teaching virtually any
topic before that it's it's it's harder um yeah we have more experience with with with teenagers
than than with little kids but yeah who knows maybe maybe one day at least on the salvadorian
side there is the the little others um book i believe it's called what is money and that's
basically kind of like what children see in school before they they get to the age where they will see
the course that the diploma that we prepare design for them that's amazing that that's awesome and so
that's going to be in spanish in english in will it will you know yeah so like you can just anyone
can download it this one is in spanish and here's the the cool thing and this is where we are right
now so i don't have all the answers but we basically we we own the ip rights for this
There's like over 1,500 to 2,000 tiny images that compound into 155 visualizations that explain Bitcoin and money.
We also have it in English.
Our version is a little bit different than the one that we're publishing with the Bitcoin office.
But it's ready.
It's ready for other governments to tell us like we want this too.
is ready to be put into a learning management system
or in other words,
like some sort of like e-learning platform.
We need to decide what to do.
A lot of things come into question.
It's like, okay, do we open source it,
put in a letter on MS, take sponsors?
Do we go governments first?
We continue doing this nationwide
because governments and so on,
they wouldn't,
some of them I assume is an assumption
I don't know, but they wouldn't like that something is for free and open search and then you sell it to them.
So we need to make those decisions, right?
Like, OK, do we sell to institutions and governments or to private companies or do we go like the open search?
Like all those strategies are different.
Some things we can mix or combine, others we cannot.
We're trying to find what is the best way to proceed.
That's what's going on.
We're taking our time.
We don't want to rush this.
but at the end we need to be responsible and think
okay how's the way how we can
impact the most people
we showcased it at different events
conferences things like that
just to get the world out there
so people can get an idea
of what it is you've created
so we just started
we only talked about this first we announced
that we started working on it
at the Bitcoin historical event
which is also one of my favorite Bitcoin projects
because when you have the backing from an entire state,
like being at the National Palace
with the drones and the Bitcoin logos and the fireworks,
and it's also so surreal.
It's just like a fairy tale, right?
It was awesome.
And there we got to announce basically
that we were collaborating
or we are still collaborating with the Bitcoin office
to create this course.
And that was at the National Theater.
So imagine that.
It's different.
So we talk about it there and also the adopting Bitcoin,
the one that takes place in Osabagor.
And Bitcoin made in just like a month ago, more or less.
So we are just starting to communicate things.
We put everything down on the Whisper website, Whisper.io.
Is it okay if I say the name?
Yeah, absolutely.
So whisper.
Is that spelled W-H-I-S-P-E-R?
We Spark.
Yes.
Oh, we Spark.
I think it's in whisper.
No, we Spark.
No, no, no.
We Spark.io slash Bitcoin.
And then people can discover what we are doing there.
And the services, the same services, you know,
that basically product development, training, education,
even marketing.
If someone wants Bitcoin marketing, we're all...
offering all of those and we're showing like the use cases and what we have done before
for our clients it's very um i mean it's a bold step because while we were always working on some
bitcoin stuff i know these platforms such as linkedin where we were getting completely nerfed
so when i post things about bitcoin i don't i try and sometimes i forget to not write bitcoin on the
text because
no one sees it.
I can tell you for
sure that you
write Bitcoin in some places
and you have this silent
ban.
Interesting. And LinkedIn,
you feel LinkedIn is
throttling Bitcoin posts.
Yeah, so it's quite a bold step
for us, but I
think that there are two things.
One definitely more important than others that I learned
to do is that
One is you can talk about Bitcoin openly and tell like, hey, we're focused on Bitcoin only.
And openly, you can tell people, yeah, we don't do other things, Bitcoin only.
And yes, we stand behind it.
That has resulted, at first I was scared, but it has resulted in better opportunities.
I would even say more than more opportunities is better opportunities specifically.
So that paid off.
And the second thing is also to you know when people ask you and you just did that you know about religion spirituality believing in God to always say what you believe and to not be thinking like what are someone else going to say So someone asked me yeah what about the Whisper
And is Whisper religious something?
No, but, you know, our third partner is God and we do what God tells.
And he tells which customers to take and which customers not to take.
So, yeah.
So those are two things that I'm very, very open and public about.
So, you know, whatever the consequences are, yeah, we'll take them happily.
If people are listening and they go and check out WeSpark.io forward slash Bitcoin and they're inspired, is there any way that people can add value at this stage that, you know, they might be able to help or you're looking for a certain skill set?
Super honest.
Like if that going that.
OK, let me just understand the question.
The question is, if people go to that website, is there something of value that they will learn right now?
Is there any way they could offer value to you?
Yeah, sure.
So if anyone has contacts to institutions or governments that they know that they need it,
that are at least like Bitcoin friendly or Bitcoin open, yeah, feel free to ping us.
You know, when we generate value for others, we also generate values for anyone that is supporting us, obviously.
we're just trying to you know play a fair game so as to say to be responsible to do what we can
for others to spread the things that we truly believe in I know that you are also a person
that when you find evidence for something you change your your mind about those things
and you stand behind truth you know and you spread it and I remember the first time that
that we wrote i went to check the podcast um i've heard to to a few episodes from my favorite people
since then but the first thing that i found was about uh yeah that co2 is not it's not a correlated
to to like a climate change and so on and i was like oh my god this is crazy maybe i cannot appear
here but okay don't trust verify i will go and listen to the podcast and then i even watched
the documentary and then it's like huh how have i been so constant with this how was you know so
sure about something that i never checked for on my own you know and i instantly liked it
you know we we get reminded again and again um that there's things that we have still yet to learn
so with that in mind yeah if someone goes to the website they kind of value by just saying it's
like hey guys maybe you should do this or that you know we're open to any suggestions we truly
listen we truly check um yeah if someone wants to wants to collaborate and have some good ideas
just just spin us and please but please please tell us you know like how you would like to
collaborate i guess like you also get lots of messages sometimes and when people say like yeah
let's see how we collaborate and then you go into a call and it's like yeah we want to sell you this
so yeah so i mean like truly i guess that people that that that listen to your podcast already
they have been pre-filtered you have the sort of people that if they take action is because they
really know uh what they want uh and what what the output should be but but yeah at this point uh
we're really open to suggestions and to people that want to help us in our mission uh we're very
open about what we do and what we don't do. The second part being the most important one.
I believe that defines us even more than what we do. And yeah, we hope that eventually we can
also, and that was my question before, add some value to the people that go and visit the website
directly. So some of the ideas that we have is, okay, this is going to be this book, but this is
for El Salvador, if we put this book out there for anyone to buy at cost, right, just what it costs
to print or it's free, what would be the consequences on that? So those are kind of like the things that
we're thinking, like we can put this book out there. Maybe that's going to help us, you know,
eventually we give something for free, but eventually we get somewhere else that we are not here today.
Or we can create like a free version of the course in a video format or yeah, something like this.
To be honest, in a way, why we wanted to do it is because Adam and I, we get asked a lot,
okay, so when you're in a conversation with someone, imagine the Uber, the taxi guy,
or someone from your family or friends, and then you talk about Bitcoin for 10, 15 minutes.
It's not been much, but they are interested now.
And they're like, okay, so where can I learn more about this?
None of us has a source that we can truly tell them, like, go here.
This is for you.
you know some people are ready to now spend 30 minutes other people are ready to spend three
hours uh most people are not ready to to go deep down the rabbit hole for thousands of hours like
some of the people in our in our inner circle let's call it like that so whenever you send them
uh you need to know you know like okay so do you want like a half an hour thing or like a three
our thing you have to ask that and once they answer you need to have like a like a good like
a good source so because we never felt um that there was the one place we wanted to build that
place where we can send people um and yeah so that's kind of like in our roadmap now but there's
so much going on and we're just like filtering saying all the most things so that we can focus
and making those decisions calmly, focusing on quality,
making sure that we are going slow enough and calm enough
to make those decisions.
So yeah, I hope that happens within the next couple of months.
But yeah, but if you're asking if there's any source
that I have recommended to people that I feel that they are ready
to put maybe five to seven hours into it,
the answer is yes, and I send them the little Bitcoin book.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's cool.
And it's interesting because there's so many shout out to other people that are creating educational content.
There's such a, you know, vast array of people doing it.
I've just had Deanna on the show.
Deanna Heiken.
And she's actually she was obviously based in El Salvador.
She's going to the US.
She's going to try and create a whole curriculum.
She's written loads of kids books.
Absolutely amazing.
You've got my first Bitcoin, obviously.
John also over in El Salvador.
something about El Salvador has sparked this idea of like we need to educate which is great
we have Claire Chisholm over here in the UK and Scotland she's divided she's written a course
for the the private school that she's head mistress at she's working closely with Saferdean
to write a course for like her teenagers up in that school we've got a couple of British guys
shout out to Huxley and James that are teaching uh they've taught teachers how to teach and this
is happening in British schools uh which is incredible so yeah more so you know here's that
there's what we need is options at the end and that's the thing is in those short discussions
you don't you need to make a lot of assumptions to send someone to the best course I love the
standard it orange feel me uh i mentioned it earlier even but most people are not ready for it
they will get maybe scared yeah uh for me to work it was i felt like it was written for me i loved it
me too and and something that we try to do as well is when we give an example let's say uh this is
this is an example that is that is inside so we are talking about high time preference low time
preference we take three examples because we know that there's a higher chance that one of them is
going to talk to some of the kids one is about um health so basically you know you have an
a visual example saying like okay today you're eating lots of candies you don't exercise you know
you have this lazy life so tomorrow you're more probable to you know be unhealthy and not or not
happy with your body and things like that opposed to if you if you do the hard thing if you follow
low-term preference then today you exercise um and you eat healthy tomorrow you will feel better
and you will also like be happy with your body and that's one exercise but maybe sports is not
something that talks to everyone. So we had another example. The other one is about, you know,
watching a TikTok or Instagram or Netflix, whatever. So today you spend your life, you know,
watching all this stuff. And I mean, it's fun, yes, but if you do too much, you're wasting a big
part of your life. So tomorrow you might probably feel lost and you might be on skill. If today you
focus more on you know getting new skills uh reading books then tomorrow you will more likely
be skilled and then the last one is about shopping and you have someone that is shopping uh like
buying all the things that they want and tomorrow you're more likely to you know have money troubles
opposed to the person that says like okay i'm going to save today uh yeah then tomorrow you're
more likely to be wealthy or at least not have problems with money.
So it's a single example.
The single thing that we're trying to teach is, you know, low time preference applied to
real things that kids don't understand.
But we give them three options to do.
So if you go macro with that, I believe that or what I hope is that when we send someone
to a place, we send them to this website, we ask them, OK, cool.
We are here about Bitcoin.
and we will just give you what is the best source.
Not only WeSpark stuff that we have done,
but also other sources.
So how long would you like to learn about Bitcoin?
Are you ready for half an hour, three hours?
Do you want to read an entire book?
Okay, yes.
Then what is your current level of understanding about this or that?
Okay, beginner and intermediate expert?
Okay, well, what's your preferred format?
Do you like reading?
Do you like watching videos?
Do you like doing something interactive?
And then they will answer.
Maybe it's three questions.
It takes one minute to answer.
It's like, okay, this is what we think is the match for you.
So that's kind of like the approach that we want to go. But as you can imagine, just mentioning the interactive part, as a hobby, I was programming a Bitcoin mining game. I never finished it. You know, I did the assets, the main things, but it was a lot of time.
And to be honest, you know, like I also need to focus on the business.
We're responsible for quite some people.
So I didn't continue it, but we hope to get to the point where we have the customers or the support to be able to build those things.
Imagine if every time that you're learning a new Bitcoin mechanic, you can interact with it.
As an example, something that wouldn't take too much time, but you need to create hundreds of these, like a minigame.
You want to explain how mining rewards work.
So you can have a very easy game with dices that you're throwing.
And then, you know, like if you buy a new miner,
just to say you can throw another dice.
And now the number is like 80, you know,
and you need to throw your four or five dice again
until the number goes below 20, something like this, right?
And then you see other like competitors that are throwing dice
and you see the more dice you have,
the higher probability that you win the next round.
So it's a tiny game.
It's fun for like four or five minutes,
but you got it, you know?
Okay, Bitcoin, what you're doing at the end,
mining is, you know,
trying to find the lowest number possible.
And at the same time,
you understand some of these mechanics.
But it's a game.
So we want to do these little things
through the entire curriculum eventually.
It's obvious your passion.
for this.
You are clearly 100% committed to it.
So I hope people feel that as well
and reach out to you
or check out your book
and go again to the website
and download it
and I'll put all the links
in the show notes.
But before we end the conversation,
final question for you If you had one last orange pill left to give to somebody who would you give it to and why wow a single orange pill okay yeah let me give it a second because first i need to think is this something that i
do for the entire world or something that is truly personal you know
okay okay
I don't believe we really have enemies so like we'd be connor we don't really have enemies
right we only disagree with some people that have potentially not put the right amount of effort
into understanding what's going.
Assuming that this orange peel
also is a full orange peel.
It has the full doses
and it also changes the heart.
And because I spend a lot of time there,
I will give it to the head
of the European Central Bank.
Because she, yeah, she has,
she's empowered to decide a lot of things
that affect a lot of people
that I'm very close with.
And yeah,
if she will be properly orange peel,
I hope this will touch her heart
to basically see
that she can truly leave a legacy,
you know,
or at least slow down on some things,
on some plans that she has
or stop working with some people
that she is
or fire some people that are adding, you know,
absolutely irresponsible articles out there
that get spread everywhere.
So why that and not the U.S.?
I believe that a lot of people look to the old continent
sometimes for wisdom, knowledge, and so on,
because people know that in Europe,
people take a little bit longer to come to conclusions.
so US
I guess a lot
of people will say like I will give it to
the US president
but
yeah but I feel that when I look at the US
I look at people that are building and so on
you know
the US is well represented in Bitcoin and Germany is in a way but I feel that it will have it will have a a really big impact in the way that we need you know let shield a more and more like okay this is grounded
or something kind of way well love it thank you yeah i i don't know maybe no right answer so don't
Thank you Daniel.
Thank you for coming on Nelson.
It's been great to spend this time with you and thank you for your book and thank you for what you're doing for Bitcoin and Bitcoin education.
I look forward to watching the project take hold and start spreading its wings.
So congratulations and thanks for coming on.
Thank you Daniel.
We're just trying to be good with everyone.
That's what we're trying to do.
So thank you for your time.
It's a big honor.
Everyone in my team is expecting that I ride them how it went right now.
So everyone's really excited.
Yeah, it's an honor.
Hopefully we meet sometime soon again.
If not, I will see you later in 2028 at Madeira.
But if you're around in Osama, just ping us.
we're happy to
go and talk
yeah well to
philosophy more than
philosophy with you
love it thank you very much
and yeah if we don't see each other
before Madeira 2028
we'll be there for sure
take care brother thank you
well thank you everybody for listening
and thank you again Nelson for coming on
and sharing what you've been up to
all your hard work if you want to check out his book
It's called Unstable Innovation.
It's a great book.
Really interesting life and death story in the middle there as well.
Very, yeah, I've just literally recorded a conversation with Pavla and Mikhail Nördler as well in the Czech Republic.
And they have their own life and death story also attached to the ocean.
And I don't know what this trend is, but, you know, it seems that if you have that kind of situation,
you come out the other side of it and are more committed than ever before to make a difference.
And just like Inno excuse me Nelson Inno Michael and Pavla are so committed to building Bitcoin services and tools for people and with a focus on education They will be at BTC Prague this summer So that btcprague
Hit the link in the show notes.
Use the code BITTEN, B-I-T-T-E-N, to get yourselves a 10% discount.
And if you want to find out more about how you can help educational processes or resources,
Maybe you have some kind of experience as a teacher.
Maybe you have some kind of experience just as marketing or just sales.
Anything.
Anything that's going to help these organizations such as WeSpark where Nelson is in El Salvador.
Or MyFirstBitcoin or Inviti as I was talking about.
That's the lookout for that one.
It's going to be released in the next three or four episodes with Michael Perfler.
and any other educational projects that you see out there that you think you'll be able to lend
your skills to in any way shape or form also listen out for the interview i've got coming out
with james jewer he talks about how he has been going into a school in the uk after passing passing
after being uh greenlit by uh huxley who's running the my first bitcoin diploma course over here so
how to educate the educators.
I've had Dushan Matuska on here
talking about that before as well
and all of his educational projects
that he's trying to push and achieve.
If you can translate,
if you don't have any kind of literature
or, you know, these diplomas,
so this Bitcoin Diploma 2.0
that NOLS has put together
or the My First Bitcoin Diploma,
you know, with this comes textbooks
style textbooks and they all need translating so that's another way that
you can help if possible maybe they need artwork if that's some way that you can
help maybe they need design work if that's some way you can help whatever it
is reach out and you know forewarning this is not for not-for-profit stuff this
is just leaning in to these areas and helping people build out educational
projects. So with all that said, I've run out of music. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you,
Nelson, for coming on. Please reach out to him or any of the other people that you think you
can add value to. I'll catch you on the next show. Take care.