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Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.

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This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can

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around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean

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for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so

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much for listening. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Once a Pits In Podcast.

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Joining me today, friend of the show, friend of the family, Avi Burra, who is here to talk about

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many things because that is what he is doing in the Bitcoin space. Not one thing, but many things.

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He's authored two fictional books. He's working on a third. He's got a podcast running over 100,

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I think it's up to about 150.

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Sorry, Avi, I should have checked.

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I know it's up there.

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Pleb Chain Radio.

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And as he tells us now on this podcast, this interview,

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he's really leaning into that

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and is going to be running some extra shows.

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He's got his Sunday brunch show going on as well.

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Big advocate for value for value

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is doing a lot of work in that space.

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Big advocate for Bitcoin for the arts.

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That is an initiative that is coming out of New York.

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Dion Wilson is behind that

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and he announced that at the PubKey meetup

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where I was with Avi in New York

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and because I was there for the History of Bitcoin book,

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Smash Toshi, you can go and follow that project as well.

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Incredible art in that.

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A unique, one-of-a-kind piece of artwork,

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coffee table book.

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It's incredible.

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Anyway, I digress.

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And he's a filmmaker as well.

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if you've not seen his series

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Finding Home

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where he interviews

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expatriate Bitcoiners around the world

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that are living in a different country to their own

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and asking why

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and what is that

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journey like and how has Bitcoin

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played a role in that

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so

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lots to unpack here, always a fun rep with

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Avi, thank you so much for coming on mate

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thank you for everything that you

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are doing and continue to do for

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Bitcoin and for those of you trying to figure out a way to leave your fiat existence maybe you've

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painted yourself into the corner of a 30-year career or whatever it is you're doing something

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you don't want to do day to day this is what Harvey did he ripped off the band-aid middle of

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last year and he tells you how and why and perhaps you might get some inspiration of how to do that

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yourselves as well lots of personal stories in there right before we get into the show a quick

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shout out for the show sponsors thank you as always to relay if you're in europe based across

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europe r-e-l-a-i dot c-h forward slash bitten go start stacking your sats today you can download

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the app you've got a built-in self-custodial wallet there follow through the the instructions

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it's all done for you do not write excuse me do not take a a screenshot or snapshot of the keys

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the private keys of your passphrase please write that down just on a piece of paper and we'll talk

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about self-custody as well at the same time if you want to get a hardware wallet a bitbox.swiss

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forward slash bitten so both relay and both bitbox are based out of switzerland bitcoiners doing

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bitcoiny things in switzerland and you can stack your sets with relay and if you get to a certain

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point and you want to be really super safe get them off the app and onto your bitbox they work

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together very closely both julian and douglas known each other a long time bitbox.swiss

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forward slash bitten use the code bitten to get yourself a five percent discount now if you are

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listening from any part of the world if you've got bitcoin on an app on your phone or on an exchange

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you've got to take self-custody of that bitbox they will ship globally bitbox.swiss forward slash

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bit and get yourself a hardware wallet of course you can do your own research never trust me bro

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do your own research but please please consider if you've not taken self-custody of your bitcoin

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if you've not gone down that rabbit hole if you just if your education is missing in that if that

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piece of the puzzle of your bitcoin education is missing find it and fit it you have to start

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looking at this very seriously bitcoin in self-custody is the only way that you have control

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over that bitcoin if not it's on an exchange it's somebody else's bitcoin finally club orange

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they have rebranded from orange pill app club orange is the place for you to go to meet other

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the Bitcoiners and if you do meet other Bitcoiners in real life you can have these discussions in

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your local little community it could be your town it could be your city wherever you are based

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open Club Orange you're gonna find someone I promise you you'll find someone it would be

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whether they live there or not they might just be traveling through but you'll find someone within

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like 50 to 75 miles perhaps even closer we've had people find each other five miles around the

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corner they didn't even know existed. They've been Bitcoiners for years and they've known each

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other on Twitter and whatever else, but they had no idea they were around the corner to each other.

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And we've had people meet and get married and have babies. So incredible things are happening

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on Club Orange. Get over there. Come see us. Thank you so much for listening. Enjoy this one with Avi.

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Avi, how are you doing, mate? I'm doing well, Daniel. Bitcoin is dead. Podcasting is dead.

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Bitcoin podcasting is doubly dead.

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But here we are.

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We keep chipping away.

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Yeah, I mean, that's why I said to Lauren,

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it's important that she comes in and asks the first question

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because nobody listens to podcasts anymore, Lauren.

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Do they not?

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No, 40 hours per week was a 2025 thing.

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Oh.

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Yeah, everybody got completely bored and tired

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and they hate Bitcoin because it's not 250K.

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So they're all buying ETFs

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and Bitcoin treasury penny stocks instead.

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I actually can't tell if you're joking

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I can't either

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you're probably right

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alright

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go on, I'll skip it

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usually I have five minutes to prepare

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but this is a really

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last minute question

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but

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the question is

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about your TV show and how

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you got the idea to do it

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and how you

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made it to be

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yeah well

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I think you've seen an episode or two

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right Lauren? It's just mostly

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me eating a lot of steak and good food

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and drinking wine and travelling to

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amazing parts of the world so who doesn't

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like doing that? So that was the idea I wanted to do

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that on camera

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that's one of the reasons

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the other is

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you know there I really

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wanted to tell the story of

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amazing things that Bitcoiners are doing.

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There is so much darkness and sadness and despair in the world,

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but not so much in our world, right?

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In Bitcoin and in just the freedom tech movement in general,

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there are people with a lot of hope who are building amazing things.

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And I really wanted to tell these stories, but not over a podcast.

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And, you know, a lot of these folks do show up on podcasts and it's,

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you know, nice conversations.

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They talk about the technology and so on.

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but uh you know i i think these conversations come to life when when they're shot you know

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with the backdrop of amazing architecture and food and wine right people tend to relax more

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and they show themselves uh their their true selves even more and and these are these people

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are all pioneers and they're making the world an amazing place and these stories need to be heard

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and the other thing is you know it's not just anyone right it's people who've traveled to a

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new country they've become they're either immigrants or expats whatever you want to call

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them right there they found a new home there so i'm trying to tell those two parallel stories one

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is that that story of them finding a new physical home adapting to that country that cuisine what

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part of their culture have they brought with them how is that assimilated into this new culture

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they're in but also the parallel story of finding home which is uh more metaphorical right it's it's

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we're all expats or immigrants we when i say we i mean us in our group here as bitcoiners

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we're expats and immigrants from fiat uh refugees from fiat and we found a sovereign home in bitcoin

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so it's those two parallel stories and the food and wine helps too i was gonna say it looks good

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yeah the one you watched was in Prague

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with Grafton

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from Vexel

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yeah and you're

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I think the entire family

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is in it, the Prince family

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for a brief shot

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we saw Prince like

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what's that

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yeah yes because

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you had the camera guys over on the

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weekend of the conference

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and filming a couple of the dinners

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so yeah it was

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yeah it was good to see i've watched all three now so i've watched the one in new york the one

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in prague and one in ascension in uh in paraguay and yeah awesome mate i'm looking forward to the

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next one yeah the next one is uh london and manchester with our good friend roger 9000

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that promises to be a good one i was gonna say those are gonna be good ones yeah imagine

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hanging around following roger having dinner with him getting his thoughts on

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why he moved to London and

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yeah

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his music yeah that gonna be fun just felt like the right thing to do man i wondering how much i want to make it family friendly and roger is absolutely a family friendly

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guy except that every third word is the f-bomb

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i mean and you can see the pureness in him when he says it right but but it's uh i'm just thinking

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how much of the episode I'll have to bleep out

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or maybe just leave it that way.

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I don't know.

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We'll see.

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Yeah.

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I mean, having Bitcoin

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appearance is...

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You can't censor Roger 90.

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Yeah.

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I think that's an unwritten rule.

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Yeah. And I joke with Avi that

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one day he's going to

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be the subject

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of the show rather than the interviewer.

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But it's going to have to be in India.

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and where was that where did you go Hyderabad Hyderabad in it yeah and he's got to take us

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around like all the the best little eateries and street food oh yeah all the delicious stuff

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you in all right you're down all right you got a new interviewer excellent yeah well like I said

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last time when was that Daniel was that a year and a half ago when I was on your show

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Lauren was trying to remember

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and that goes to show you how quickly

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time flies

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it was only a few months ago we had

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I'm like there's no way in the world

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this is like

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we could always check

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we could check because we could check the block height

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I know that's on the oven

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you just need to go and turn it

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say goodnight to Avi and then go turn the oven

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bye Lauren

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bye

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uh right yeah so where where to start mate unraveling uh unraveling what's what's happened

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in 2025 here we are recording january 2026 we've got to hang out a lot uh in different parts of the

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world and catch up in real life which is always better uh manchester you were there btc prague

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where else man Helsinki you came to New York for New York that's right we were over New York

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for pub key uh the the Bitcoin culture scene kind of panel uh which was awesome

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you've you're the busiest you're the busiest bee in Bitcoin I think mate

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what are you running one or two podcasts three in a manner of speaking three podcasts it's the

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Same RSS feed, but yes, it's three podcasts.

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A TV show, a traveler to all of the different conferences,

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and an author.

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And my NOSTA startup as well.

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And the NOSTA startup, okay.

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They're four full-time jobs.

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And then I'm involved with Bitcoin Policy India.

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We're trying to bootstrap something.

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I mean, that's a long haul.

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And we could talk about that at some point.

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But yes, I do keep myself busy.

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It's because I quit my Fiat job.

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Daniel, 2025 was a great year for me.

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It's the year I walked away from Fiat.

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And it just allowed me to do all these things.

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I'm busier than I've ever been,

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but I'm more energized and happier than I've ever been.

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I have four full-time jobs.

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I make one-fourth of what I used to make when I was in Fiat.

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This is the happiest I've been.

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in that I can remember.

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Let's talk about the exit.

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How did, I know we'd had lots of personal conversations

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leading up to this over the last 18 months or even longer,

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because this is something that happens to all of us.

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You know, you discover Bitcoin, you stack as hard as you can,

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and you think one day I'll hit the magic number.

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Then you have the realization, no, there is no magic number.

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This is on me.

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What was that journey like?

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Because I know a lot of the listeners of both shows would be in a position where they've painted themselves into the corner of a fiat career.

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They might have the nice lifestyle, the good wage, happy family, don't want to rock the boat.

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But internally, you're so conflicted.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, look, I was running an AI team at a large health tech company in the US.

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And as you can imagine, well-paying job, you know, reasonably high profile role, that sort of thing.

241
00:15:06,786 --> 00:15:13,166
And it was the job was OK up until my last year there.

242
00:15:13,546 --> 00:15:18,546
It was manageable, meaning it was mindless, pointless work.

243
00:15:19,606 --> 00:15:21,526
But it gave me enough.

244
00:15:21,706 --> 00:15:24,026
Well, it paid the bills and more.

245
00:15:24,026 --> 00:15:32,386
and it gave me enough time to write my first book, travel to a few conferences. So it was okay.

246
00:15:33,286 --> 00:15:38,546
I still had that nagging existential thing of what the hell am I doing? I mean, I still spend

247
00:15:38,546 --> 00:15:45,166
certain number of hours a week on this pointless work, which is pointless fiat work.

248
00:15:45,166 --> 00:15:48,206
but I managed

249
00:15:48,206 --> 00:15:51,446
and then the job started getting toxic

250
00:15:51,446 --> 00:15:54,526
and that's when I started thinking about

251
00:15:54,526 --> 00:15:56,026
why am I doing this to myself

252
00:15:56,026 --> 00:15:59,906
and the simple answer initially was

253
00:15:59,906 --> 00:16:02,426
well I'm doing this for the family

254
00:16:02,426 --> 00:16:03,926
this is what a man does

255
00:16:03,926 --> 00:16:05,406
he takes one for the family

256
00:16:05,406 --> 00:16:07,806
and you've got to pay the bills

257
00:16:07,806 --> 00:16:08,946
and all of that stuff

258
00:16:08,946 --> 00:16:09,946
saving up for the future

259
00:16:09,946 --> 00:16:12,126
and in any case once Bitcoin is a million

260
00:16:12,126 --> 00:16:13,646
all of this is moot anyway

261
00:16:13,646 --> 00:16:18,086
Right. A few, fast forward a few months, job gets even more toxic.

262
00:16:19,166 --> 00:16:22,786
Having the same conversation with myself. And I say, oh, you know what?

263
00:16:22,926 --> 00:16:24,486
Millionaire, millions are a little far away.

264
00:16:24,606 --> 00:16:27,566
And that was when Bitcoin was getting close to a hundred K for the first time.

265
00:16:27,586 --> 00:16:30,566
I said, how about half a million? That's my number.

266
00:16:31,446 --> 00:16:36,326
Then fast forward a few months. And like, and as you can imagine,

267
00:16:36,386 --> 00:16:39,666
this pattern kept repeating. And I was,

268
00:16:39,666 --> 00:16:43,586
if you're familiar with the play Waiting for Godot, Samuel Beckett's play,

269
00:16:43,646 --> 00:16:47,586
these two middle-aged or slightly older men, grumpy old men,

270
00:16:47,746 --> 00:16:49,046
chatting about life, and they're saying,

271
00:16:49,146 --> 00:16:49,866
we're waiting for Godot.

272
00:16:50,106 --> 00:16:52,526
No one knows who Godot is, and they're just waiting for him.

273
00:16:52,686 --> 00:16:54,846
And that's a somewhat nihilistic play,

274
00:16:55,446 --> 00:16:56,746
in the sense that, you know,

275
00:16:56,806 --> 00:17:01,646
these guys talking about life in a nihilistic way,

276
00:17:01,866 --> 00:17:06,446
waiting for this so-called Godot-type messianic character

277
00:17:06,446 --> 00:17:07,406
who never shows up.

278
00:17:07,906 --> 00:17:09,806
And in my case, I was waiting for Satoshi,

279
00:17:10,006 --> 00:17:11,166
in a manner of speaking, right?

280
00:17:11,166 --> 00:17:14,906
I'm Satoshi is going to set me free as Roger's song goes.

281
00:17:15,966 --> 00:17:25,646
And the thing is, I reached the realization about a year after a year of just a little over a year of putting up with this toxicity.

282
00:17:25,646 --> 00:17:27,506
It was around May or June of last year.

283
00:17:28,066 --> 00:17:30,546
It is no one is going to set you free.

284
00:17:31,086 --> 00:17:35,646
And secondly, I had been acting like I was caged.

285
00:17:35,646 --> 00:17:43,446
right like i i had become a prisoner in a jail that i'd created for myself and i always had the

286
00:17:43,446 --> 00:17:48,346
key right so satoshi is not going to set me free i'm going to set myself free there is no magic

287
00:17:48,346 --> 00:17:53,666
number uh so i opened the door and walked out and you know several reasons it's like you know i'd

288
00:17:53,666 --> 00:17:58,966
been rationalizing to myself up until then and oh this is how a good good husband and a good father

289
00:17:58,966 --> 00:18:04,346
behaves and that's not how a good husband and good father behaves because it was making me angry

290
00:18:04,346 --> 00:18:13,006
bitter and resentful. And it was affecting my health. And now I'm a much better, you know,

291
00:18:13,006 --> 00:18:18,126
all of those categories. I'm healthier because there's zero stress in my life. And I'm a happy

292
00:18:18,126 --> 00:18:24,426
father and a happy husband. And I think ultimately that's what, you know, my son's not going to

293
00:18:24,426 --> 00:18:31,046
remember me by, oh, remember that one Bitcoin he worked hard to save, which is now, you know,

294
00:18:31,046 --> 00:18:37,766
now that Ishan, my son, once he turns 40, it's worth $10 million, but dad's dead. He died of a

295
00:18:37,766 --> 00:18:43,426
heart attack when he was 40-something. But at least I have this inheritance of $10 million

296
00:18:43,426 --> 00:18:52,806
of a Bitcoin. No. How is that going to help Ishan at all? What if that one Bitcoin is still worth

297
00:18:52,806 --> 00:18:59,726
$58K when he turns 40, but he's had a rich and rewarding life of experiences with both father

298
00:18:59,726 --> 00:19:05,686
and mother. I think that's a much bigger gift to him than whatever that Bitcoin would have been

299
00:19:05,686 --> 00:19:11,026
worth. So yeah, you know, a series of those realizations, it seems obvious saying it in

300
00:19:11,026 --> 00:19:16,486
retrospect, but you know, it was, I'd built a prison for myself. And then ultimately, it was

301
00:19:16,486 --> 00:19:21,206
just a question of finding the key in my pocket, unlocking that door and walking out.

302
00:19:22,226 --> 00:19:29,706
Yeah, I can resonate. It is taking me back now to when I did it. And that was 2004.

303
00:19:29,726 --> 00:19:36,086
14 and just coming to that realization that you know what what am i what am i doing this for

304
00:19:36,086 --> 00:19:43,426
well i'm doing it for them but i don't ever see them you know i'm a lodger in my own home and uh

305
00:19:43,426 --> 00:19:48,506
like you you're stressed you're agitated you're never yourself you're never your best self you

306
00:19:48,506 --> 00:19:55,586
never show up 100 percent uh because of every all of the negative energy that you've uh encountered

307
00:19:55,586 --> 00:19:57,426
the day-to-day week.

308
00:19:58,106 --> 00:20:00,506
And that was back in the day where nothing was remote.

309
00:20:00,786 --> 00:20:02,466
You were even out of the house.

310
00:20:03,306 --> 00:20:06,746
But it's still not...

311
00:20:06,746 --> 00:20:09,626
How did the actual resignation go?

312
00:20:10,446 --> 00:20:12,486
Because this is another...

313
00:20:12,486 --> 00:20:14,246
It's one thing to say, yeah, you got the key,

314
00:20:14,326 --> 00:20:15,166
just unlock the door.

315
00:20:15,166 --> 00:20:19,706
But there are some conversations to be had there, right?

316
00:20:19,706 --> 00:20:25,926
So the job was so toxic.

317
00:20:26,406 --> 00:20:27,886
There was so little recognition.

318
00:20:28,326 --> 00:20:34,386
And I was holding the team morale up because I looked at these people as human beings.

319
00:20:34,526 --> 00:20:37,586
I had 30 people reporting to me directly and indirect.

320
00:20:37,746 --> 00:20:40,466
Actually, closer to 40, between direct and indirect.

321
00:20:41,106 --> 00:20:44,266
And I saw what the toxic atmosphere was doing to them.

322
00:20:44,266 --> 00:20:54,932
And I was single pouring my energy into keeping their morale up And now that I was looking for recognition from the executives for doing that

323
00:20:55,472 --> 00:20:56,892
And the team was executing, right?

324
00:20:57,272 --> 00:20:59,272
Because I was doing all this.

325
00:21:00,252 --> 00:21:02,532
But there was none, right?

326
00:21:02,832 --> 00:21:04,572
It's not that I'm looking for gratitude.

327
00:21:04,752 --> 00:21:09,092
It's just when there's ingratitude, which is typically the case in the fiat world,

328
00:21:09,652 --> 00:21:11,892
that's when it gets grating.

329
00:21:12,012 --> 00:21:13,632
So no recognition, nothing like that.

330
00:21:13,632 --> 00:21:18,592
So once I had this realization, and it's an incredible mental character.

331
00:21:18,652 --> 00:21:23,412
I'm sure you experienced it when the realization really hit that you're walking out.

332
00:21:23,492 --> 00:21:26,372
I said, oh, I have absolutely nothing to lose.

333
00:21:26,812 --> 00:21:31,292
So I went up to my boss, who was the general manager for our broader unit.

334
00:21:31,512 --> 00:21:33,512
And I said, you need to fire me.

335
00:21:34,512 --> 00:21:36,532
You need to fire me because I'm done.

336
00:21:37,792 --> 00:21:40,632
And it was a very civil conversation.

337
00:21:41,392 --> 00:21:45,272
I said, you know, I gave him some nonsense about thank you for everything and blah, blah, blah.

338
00:21:45,392 --> 00:21:46,852
But it's time for me to move on.

339
00:21:46,872 --> 00:21:47,772
So you need to fire me.

340
00:21:48,012 --> 00:21:49,152
So I can't fire you.

341
00:21:49,752 --> 00:21:50,532
How can I fire you?

342
00:21:50,532 --> 00:21:51,452
You're leading an AI team.

343
00:21:51,532 --> 00:21:53,932
I said, no, no, because I don't want to do this anymore.

344
00:21:54,552 --> 00:21:56,512
So I said, OK, well, let me look into it.

345
00:21:56,752 --> 00:21:58,072
Two or three weeks passed.

346
00:21:58,072 --> 00:22:07,072
And then he sent some lackey to reach out to me and says, look, I get at that point I stopped working.

347
00:22:07,172 --> 00:22:08,452
I said, well, I'm going to be fired.

348
00:22:08,552 --> 00:22:09,972
So there's nothing more for me to do.

349
00:22:09,972 --> 00:22:14,312
and then there's like he said hey look there's no way it's going to look bad if you fire the head of

350
00:22:14,312 --> 00:22:21,612
our ai unit um you've got to resign uh i said i'm not going to resign well i need my three-month

351
00:22:21,612 --> 00:22:27,612
severance i didn't say this but out loud but um so the back and forth for a bit meanwhile i was

352
00:22:27,612 --> 00:22:33,952
this was through like may and june i went i came to prague uh for btc prague uh shot the film

353
00:22:33,952 --> 00:22:38,372
went back and they said look there's there's nothing there's literally nothing we could do

354
00:22:38,372 --> 00:22:45,772
you've got you have to quit I said fine so I put in my resignation um gave my notice July 4th

355
00:22:45,772 --> 00:22:56,192
Independence Day was my last day nice yes yes very intentional um and and that was it but it was it

356
00:22:56,192 --> 00:23:02,232
was liberating yeah you know I was there uh for a month or two after I'd after that moment of

357
00:23:02,232 --> 00:23:11,132
clarity but um but at that point you you once you realize that you don't need them anymore you could

358
00:23:11,132 --> 00:23:17,612
do anything and you realize the system is just it it it relies on your obedience and your fear

359
00:23:17,612 --> 00:23:21,492
right that's how they manipulate you and once that fear and obedience is gone

360
00:23:21,492 --> 00:23:31,692
then they have no power over you so when did you start writing the second book at what point during

361
00:23:31,692 --> 00:23:38,772
this journey because you know when when you dropped that i was like oh mother fucker i've

362
00:23:38,772 --> 00:23:45,112
got another bitcoin book to read now and then i get that copy in manchester i'm like oh man it's

363
00:23:45,112 --> 00:23:52,172
another brick like what the hell has been going up in your head like you know that's not a short

364
00:23:52,172 --> 00:24:00,952
story it is not a short story uh it it so i had by at that point i'd written about maybe 50 pages

365
00:24:00,952 --> 00:24:10,432
of the book. So my first book, 24, I released in November of 2023, right? We're talking about

366
00:24:10,432 --> 00:24:17,912
I quit in summer of 2025. So in the two years or a year and a half since I'd written about 50 pages

367
00:24:17,912 --> 00:24:21,972
and it had been torture because I hadn't been able to get there, you know, write two pages,

368
00:24:22,072 --> 00:24:26,452
hit writer's block because of nonsense at work and stress and all of that stuff.

369
00:24:26,452 --> 00:24:33,612
so i took those 50 pages uh and yeah it was in basically july 5th i think is when i started

370
00:24:33,612 --> 00:24:40,912
reading writing page 51 and then within three months i was done yeah by sometime in august or

371
00:24:40,912 --> 00:24:49,712
so oh no sorry by late september i was done yeah wow yeah released you released the beast and yeah

372
00:24:49,712 --> 00:24:55,872
yeah and look at it yeah i loved it i thought it was a great book absolutely loved it and you know

373
00:24:55,872 --> 00:24:59,892
a nice carry on to the first book.

374
00:25:00,512 --> 00:25:02,952
And then you leave me with the idea that,

375
00:25:03,052 --> 00:25:05,112
oh no, he's going to write another one, isn't he?

376
00:25:05,752 --> 00:25:07,092
What have you got coming now?

377
00:25:08,092 --> 00:25:08,932
Yeah, yeah.

378
00:25:09,132 --> 00:25:12,532
I mean, I think it's fair to let the cat out of the bag

379
00:25:12,532 --> 00:25:14,932
at this point, Daniel, which is,

380
00:25:15,672 --> 00:25:16,832
for people who read 24,

381
00:25:17,092 --> 00:25:18,432
obviously it ends on a cliffhanger.

382
00:25:19,432 --> 00:25:24,352
And I thought I'd complete the story in book two.

383
00:25:24,352 --> 00:25:26,532
but as I was writing book two

384
00:25:26,532 --> 00:25:28,192
and especially in this liberated state

385
00:25:28,192 --> 00:25:30,592
I said there's no way this is ending

386
00:25:30,592 --> 00:25:31,852
there is no way

387
00:25:31,852 --> 00:25:35,132
I'm having way too much fun doing this

388
00:25:35,132 --> 00:25:37,472
so I left July 18

389
00:25:37,472 --> 00:25:38,592
which is the sequel to 24

390
00:25:38,592 --> 00:25:39,912
on a cliffhanger as well

391
00:25:39,912 --> 00:25:42,052
and

392
00:25:42,052 --> 00:25:44,772
I'm actually about 20 pages

393
00:25:44,772 --> 00:25:46,692
into book three

394
00:25:46,692 --> 00:25:50,812
that is getting a little challenging Daniel

395
00:25:50,812 --> 00:25:52,752
not because of the same fiat pressures

396
00:25:52,752 --> 00:25:53,832
I had for July 18

397
00:25:53,832 --> 00:25:56,332
but just because I'm juggling so many things right now.

398
00:25:57,212 --> 00:26:02,552
So that, the third book in the, let's for now call it a trilogy,

399
00:26:02,972 --> 00:26:07,352
we'll see what happens, is about 20 to 30 pages in.

400
00:26:08,352 --> 00:26:12,432
So for those that weren't aware, 24 was so named

401
00:26:12,432 --> 00:26:16,192
because you had 24 words hidden in there.

402
00:26:16,752 --> 00:26:20,772
And I've actually already recorded with Dave Pierce,

403
00:26:20,772 --> 00:26:27,952
who was the man that managed to, well, the way he explained it to me,

404
00:26:28,132 --> 00:26:29,992
and this podcast would have dropped by now.

405
00:26:30,132 --> 00:26:32,092
So if you're listening to RV and you miss Dave's

406
00:26:32,092 --> 00:26:33,352
and you're wondering about the whole story,

407
00:26:33,372 --> 00:26:34,732
you can go back and listen to Dave.

408
00:26:35,072 --> 00:26:37,772
But he got halfway there, but then employed the help of

409
00:26:37,772 --> 00:26:41,912
like a Bitcoin treasure hunter, if you want to call them that,

410
00:26:42,192 --> 00:26:44,152
and they managed to crack the code.

411
00:26:44,152 --> 00:26:56,312
and uh yeah that the the words were the words from each chapter which i thought was a complete

412
00:26:56,312 --> 00:27:01,172
red herring and never ever even thought of going down that route or rabbit hole anyway

413
00:27:01,172 --> 00:27:08,912
but then he he described like the how insanely difficult it is to actually get those words in

414
00:27:08,912 --> 00:27:15,452
any kind of working order so that's where the skill lie but then in book two i'm reading through

415
00:27:15,452 --> 00:27:23,932
it and i'm thinking nah like that i don't just i'm not gonna go down the rabbit hole of looking

416
00:27:23,932 --> 00:27:34,292
for this stuff how what what clues of it well first up something's hidden yes yes yes okay

417
00:27:34,292 --> 00:27:38,632
All right. So we know that. Has it been claimed?

418
00:27:39,432 --> 00:27:44,872
No, it's it's an order of magnitude and complexity more than what I did.

419
00:27:45,232 --> 00:27:54,132
You know, I and, you know, Tufty Silvestris, Dave Pierce, has become a good friend since he cracked the bounty.

420
00:27:54,672 --> 00:27:59,692
So love the guy. I have to say I was a little disappointed that he had to employ brute forces.

421
00:27:59,692 --> 00:28:01,432
to do it.

422
00:28:01,592 --> 00:28:04,112
But that was, I mean, I'm only half joking.

423
00:28:04,732 --> 00:28:06,052
It's inevitable, right?

424
00:28:06,532 --> 00:28:10,612
That at some point, once you get 12 of the words

425
00:28:10,612 --> 00:28:12,492
or 13 of the words in the right order,

426
00:28:12,672 --> 00:28:14,832
then you just, you can brute force through the rest.

427
00:28:16,692 --> 00:28:19,192
So I wanted to eliminate that possibility.

428
00:28:20,492 --> 00:28:25,012
So yeah, this is much harder to brute force.

429
00:28:25,492 --> 00:28:27,712
Obviously the chapter titles are dates.

430
00:28:27,712 --> 00:28:30,332
So do with that what you will.

431
00:28:31,252 --> 00:28:33,292
The chapter titles in 24 were the seed words.

432
00:28:33,812 --> 00:28:35,592
I hid them in plain sight.

433
00:28:35,692 --> 00:28:36,792
They were just in the wrong order.

434
00:28:37,932 --> 00:28:42,392
So in this one, cryptography is a really interesting world.

435
00:28:43,492 --> 00:28:51,872
And there's all sorts of things you can hide in places, in locations, in dates, in other things as well.

436
00:28:51,872 --> 00:28:59,432
All of these can be mapped one is to one deterministically to a Bitcoin private key and therefore a Bitcoin seed phrase as well.

437
00:28:59,952 --> 00:29:04,552
So I think I suspect this will take years to crack, but you never know.

438
00:29:05,472 --> 00:29:13,892
And is the because in the first book, you had the address was public and people were even sending in donations, if I remember rightly.

439
00:29:14,172 --> 00:29:14,912
Yes, they were.

440
00:29:14,912 --> 00:29:17,192
That was classic, classic Bitcoin move.

441
00:29:17,192 --> 00:29:21,432
He's like, I'm not going to bother trying to crack it, but I'm going to donate to the bounty just to.

442
00:29:21,612 --> 00:29:23,112
Yeah, I love that.

443
00:29:23,892 --> 00:29:26,392
So is that the case in book two?

444
00:29:26,572 --> 00:29:27,412
What's the bounty?

445
00:29:27,512 --> 00:29:28,232
Will anyone know?

446
00:29:29,192 --> 00:29:29,472
I will.

447
00:29:29,672 --> 00:29:31,472
I don't want to reveal it just yet.

448
00:29:31,552 --> 00:29:36,532
And also, I'm going to add as the book keeps selling, I'll just keep adding more to the bounty.

449
00:29:36,652 --> 00:29:38,792
I will reveal it at some point.

450
00:29:38,912 --> 00:29:39,652
Maybe this year.

451
00:29:39,692 --> 00:29:40,072
We'll see.

452
00:29:40,072 --> 00:29:46,192
It would be nice, nicely symmetric if I could reveal it on July 18th of this year.

453
00:29:46,192 --> 00:29:49,532
but I'm in two minds about that because the book is July 18.

454
00:29:51,272 --> 00:29:53,032
We'll see about that.

455
00:29:53,812 --> 00:29:57,592
The reason I don't want to reveal the address is it helps with the brute

456
00:29:57,592 --> 00:29:58,892
forcing a little bit.

457
00:30:00,932 --> 00:30:01,172
Okay.

458
00:30:01,432 --> 00:30:04,772
So to the uninitiated brute forces out there, which is mostly,

459
00:30:05,012 --> 00:30:10,492
I would say probably assuming 99.9% of the listeners right now,

460
00:30:11,152 --> 00:30:14,672
how does brute forcing work and how would,

461
00:30:14,672 --> 00:30:17,572
knowing the address help?

462
00:30:19,172 --> 00:30:24,292
So I have to look up the exact technicals.

463
00:30:24,352 --> 00:30:26,752
I'm not going to go too deep into the technical part of it.

464
00:30:26,752 --> 00:30:29,492
So brute forcing in general, right?

465
00:30:29,592 --> 00:30:33,552
So let's say you're trying to open, you know,

466
00:30:33,632 --> 00:30:35,892
you have those doors with the combination locks.

467
00:30:35,952 --> 00:30:37,292
Let's just say it's four digit.

468
00:30:38,372 --> 00:30:41,232
You type in, and you don't know,

469
00:30:41,232 --> 00:30:45,832
it could be anything between 0, 0, 0, 0 to 9, 9, 9, 9.

470
00:30:45,952 --> 00:30:48,752
So brute forcing is you could go 0, 0, 0, 1.

471
00:30:48,952 --> 00:30:50,452
Well, didn't work. 0, 0, 0, 2.

472
00:30:50,532 --> 00:30:52,672
And then you just keep doing that.

473
00:30:52,732 --> 00:30:55,232
Or, you know, you can use smarter algorithms like...

474
00:30:55,772 --> 00:30:58,692
Actually, I don't think that works.

475
00:30:59,612 --> 00:31:03,012
Your probability of finding it remains the same

476
00:31:03,012 --> 00:31:05,192
irrespective of whether you go sequentially

477
00:31:05,192 --> 00:31:07,472
or find some...

478
00:31:07,472 --> 00:31:09,192
You jump to 1, 3, 9, 7.

479
00:31:09,292 --> 00:31:18,578
Then you go to 2 6 4 5 I don think that really helps So that brute forcing just trying different combinations until you get the right combination

480
00:31:20,018 --> 00:31:28,758
I think one way, so when you derive your, so anyone who's used a Bitcoin wallet, right,

481
00:31:28,898 --> 00:31:34,558
you derive a new address every single time, or at least that's what you should be doing. You

482
00:31:34,558 --> 00:31:39,258
shouldn't be reusing addresses. So there's actually an order in which those are generated.

483
00:31:39,958 --> 00:31:43,798
and you can think of it as depth, right?

484
00:31:43,838 --> 00:31:46,418
The first one, and the next time you do it,

485
00:31:46,438 --> 00:31:46,958
there's a second one.

486
00:31:46,998 --> 00:31:50,678
And all of those, if you know the XPUB of the key,

487
00:31:50,738 --> 00:31:51,438
again, this is what I'm saying,

488
00:31:51,498 --> 00:31:52,758
I don't want to get super technical here,

489
00:31:52,858 --> 00:31:55,878
but you can derive the entire,

490
00:31:57,158 --> 00:32:02,738
I guess, infinite possibilities of addresses

491
00:32:02,738 --> 00:32:04,438
for the public key.

492
00:32:04,438 --> 00:32:12,558
the one I had given for 24 was not the very first one,

493
00:32:12,618 --> 00:32:14,058
but it might've been the second or the third

494
00:32:14,058 --> 00:32:15,558
because I'd done a couple of coin joints.

495
00:32:15,718 --> 00:32:19,678
So I just did it going through a couple of them, I think.

496
00:32:20,758 --> 00:32:23,758
So it made it fairly simple for people checking

497
00:32:23,758 --> 00:32:25,658
because they would go through the combinations

498
00:32:25,658 --> 00:32:28,538
and then check the first two or three addresses,

499
00:32:29,578 --> 00:32:31,218
cross-reference the first two or three addresses.

500
00:32:31,498 --> 00:32:34,098
If it was the one that was publicly visible,

501
00:32:34,098 --> 00:32:35,358
then they said, okay, found it.

502
00:32:36,418 --> 00:32:38,338
So it makes it a little easier.

503
00:32:38,758 --> 00:32:41,418
If I bury, first of all,

504
00:32:41,438 --> 00:32:43,258
if I don't reveal what the address is,

505
00:32:43,338 --> 00:32:46,198
then they can't do that shortcut check.

506
00:32:46,518 --> 00:32:49,998
The other thing I could do is bury it

507
00:32:49,998 --> 00:32:51,698
like 100 addresses deep,

508
00:32:52,358 --> 00:32:55,378
which I think I probably will do just to dissuade.

509
00:32:56,018 --> 00:32:57,478
So when I do reveal the address,

510
00:32:57,658 --> 00:32:59,198
I'll just look at the list,

511
00:32:59,818 --> 00:33:01,178
pick one from the bottom of the list

512
00:33:01,178 --> 00:33:03,598
and share that.

513
00:33:04,098 --> 00:33:29,578
Oh, my cool. All right. So, uh, New York culture, Bitcoin, big part of your story at the moment, because this is what is really, I mean, we've been talking about this from Prague 18 months ago, two years ago, whenever it was, when it first kind of suddenly dawned on us that,

514
00:33:29,578 --> 00:33:40,178
huh you know all of like the the grant money that is in the space is all going in one direction

515
00:33:40,178 --> 00:33:48,198
and one direction only and that is to devs and that's an important direction yes yeah but there

516
00:33:48,198 --> 00:33:57,258
was that realization that um there weren't enough jobs for the devs come the time so we were losing

517
00:33:57,258 --> 00:34:07,198
them to shitcoin projects uh and you were theorizing well isn't there a better way for

518
00:34:07,198 --> 00:34:13,959
you know good good funding grant funding to be used and you know what other areas are there that

519
00:34:13,959 --> 00:34:22,298
we could start building out and i i think you correctly pointed out that you know culture

520
00:34:22,298 --> 00:34:31,758
art how many artists do we know between us uh that they're not getting the grants

521
00:34:31,758 --> 00:34:38,618
they love what they're doing but they're only getting paid if somebody else loves what they're

522
00:34:38,618 --> 00:34:46,798
doing and only the very few will ever be commissioned to do a piece of artwork so how

523
00:34:46,798 --> 00:34:53,838
are they supporting themselves uh you have a strong sense of well a strong love for the uh

524
00:34:53,838 --> 00:35:01,858
performing arts which is what uh dion was talking about on the panel who's an ex-broadway actor and

525
00:35:01,858 --> 00:35:09,378
now bitcoiner uh so you guys have been um have been chatting together so do you want to get us

526
00:35:09,378 --> 00:35:15,278
up to speed on what is moving, anything at all, what's happening,

527
00:35:15,778 --> 00:35:19,058
and where do you see this thing going in the next year or two?

528
00:35:19,858 --> 00:35:20,538
Yeah, yeah, sure.

529
00:35:20,718 --> 00:35:24,158
So maybe just a broader point on why culture, right?

530
00:35:24,198 --> 00:35:30,058
Because the obvious question from the casual listener would be,

531
00:35:30,058 --> 00:35:31,459
what are you talking about culture?

532
00:35:31,558 --> 00:35:32,498
Bitcoin is a technology.

533
00:35:32,998 --> 00:35:36,798
Of course, the devs need to be funded because they need to build

534
00:35:36,798 --> 00:35:43,439
either protocol level tools or applications that work with the protocol.

535
00:35:43,718 --> 00:35:45,298
And absolutely, right?

536
00:35:45,398 --> 00:35:50,478
That is without a strong foundation, the protocol layer,

537
00:35:50,778 --> 00:35:56,138
and then meaningful things that end users can do at the application layer, right?

538
00:35:56,198 --> 00:35:58,478
Good wallets, better privacy, all of that stuff.

539
00:35:59,198 --> 00:36:00,998
Then there is no Bitcoin, right?

540
00:36:02,678 --> 00:36:05,178
There is no mass adoption, let's just say, for Bitcoin.

541
00:36:05,178 --> 00:36:19,459
But that's not enough. If we do think of this as a movement, as a revolution, you don't get people just by talking to them about tech, right? You don't get the broader masses to adopt it.

542
00:36:19,459 --> 00:36:46,218
So my thesis there, and we've talked about this at length, right, Daniel, both offline, obviously, but also I think we touched upon it on your last time I was here, is the way you bring people into the fold, just normies, if you will, is through an emotional connection, not through the intellectual explanations about Austrian economics and distributed systems and censorship resistance and all of that stuff.

543
00:36:46,218 --> 00:36:51,738
That resonates with a small subset of the population, the more technically and analytically minded people.

544
00:36:51,939 --> 00:36:55,098
The vast majority of people need some kind of emotional hook.

545
00:36:55,638 --> 00:36:57,018
And that's where culture comes in.

546
00:36:57,338 --> 00:37:04,298
It's when people say, you know, I want to be part of this because look at all this amazing art that's coming out of this movement.

547
00:37:04,439 --> 00:37:09,118
Look at all the film, whatever else, right?

548
00:37:09,118 --> 00:37:17,138
theater. So that's really the idea behind building a culture around this technology, right? And

549
00:37:17,138 --> 00:37:25,478
there, obviously, there are a lot of values that some of us core believers adhere to,

550
00:37:25,478 --> 00:37:32,698
like cypherpunk ethos, sovereignty agency, individual agency, and all of that, individual

551
00:37:32,698 --> 00:37:43,098
empowerment. Yeah. So all of that stuff, that is best reflected through art, through culture,

552
00:37:43,318 --> 00:37:51,658
and so on. So that's the idea behind having a fund that supports artists and other creators

553
00:37:51,658 --> 00:38:01,419
in this space. And I think we should do away with the notion that art is somehow a revenue-generating,

554
00:38:01,419 --> 00:38:04,018
self-sustaining exercise.

555
00:38:04,238 --> 00:38:04,658
It's not.

556
00:38:05,038 --> 00:38:06,378
I mean, just look through history.

557
00:38:06,898 --> 00:38:09,858
There's never been a quote-unquote market,

558
00:38:10,098 --> 00:38:10,878
thriving market,

559
00:38:11,598 --> 00:38:13,518
where artists, every single artist,

560
00:38:13,578 --> 00:38:15,378
everyone who becomes an artist somehow

561
00:38:15,378 --> 00:38:16,959
is able to pay the bills

562
00:38:16,959 --> 00:38:20,858
just through selling their art.

563
00:38:21,498 --> 00:38:23,738
It's not like becoming a dev.

564
00:38:23,858 --> 00:38:25,078
Chances are if you become a dev,

565
00:38:25,138 --> 00:38:26,078
you'll find a job somewhere,

566
00:38:26,178 --> 00:38:27,378
you'll get compensated for it,

567
00:38:27,419 --> 00:38:29,598
and at least you'll be able to keep the lights on.

568
00:38:29,598 --> 00:38:39,818
That's not the case with art because it's not a commodity in the way software is a commodity or tools, physical tools, physical equipment is a commodity.

569
00:38:39,818 --> 00:38:56,838
I think it's a higher order entity, if you will, that's really important to exist for humanity to thrive because art can and does inspire people.

570
00:38:56,838 --> 00:38:59,858
I'm sure you've experienced this, Daniel.

571
00:38:59,919 --> 00:39:02,238
Just take a walk through a nice museum gallery.

572
00:39:02,498 --> 00:39:09,538
And I'm not talking about modern art, but the masters, right, from the 1700s, 1800s, even the last century.

573
00:39:10,258 --> 00:39:12,878
Monet, Manet, Dali, all of this.

574
00:39:13,138 --> 00:39:19,018
You walk through, you spend some time staring at those paintings, and you just come out feeling amazing.

575
00:39:19,318 --> 00:39:24,919
Because you've been inspired by just that visual assault of beauty that you've experienced.

576
00:39:24,919 --> 00:39:28,378
Same thing with theater, same thing with really good movies, right?

577
00:39:28,678 --> 00:39:34,558
So art is important to exist because it has this ability to inspire people, inspire society,

578
00:39:35,258 --> 00:39:41,058
put them in a better state of mind so that then they can do things that they otherwise

579
00:39:41,058 --> 00:39:42,698
wouldn't have if they weren't inspired.

580
00:39:44,078 --> 00:39:50,919
That's why art needs to exist, I think, because a beautiful world is a better world.

581
00:39:51,698 --> 00:39:54,658
And art doesn't sustain itself on applause.

582
00:39:54,919 --> 00:40:02,638
it needs patrons again historically this has always been the case the the medici the as farza

583
00:40:02,638 --> 00:40:08,058
the i mean you just you name it right just walk through history it's been the patrons have always

584
00:40:08,058 --> 00:40:13,838
supported the art even the museum galleries today they have the name of someone right the coke

585
00:40:13,838 --> 00:40:20,258
brothers unfortunately but they're uh they are big patrons of the art and others as well so

586
00:40:20,258 --> 00:40:22,818
the same thing applies to

587
00:40:22,818 --> 00:40:24,358
artists who are part of the

588
00:40:24,358 --> 00:40:25,439
Bitcoin movement

589
00:40:25,439 --> 00:40:29,018
yes maybe you'll have one or

590
00:40:29,018 --> 00:40:30,959
two breakthrough pieces where the

591
00:40:30,959 --> 00:40:33,098
artist makes a lot of money

592
00:40:33,098 --> 00:40:34,678
off of that and then is able to

593
00:40:34,678 --> 00:40:36,959
sustain themselves for a certain amount of time

594
00:40:36,959 --> 00:40:38,919
but for the most part we need

595
00:40:38,919 --> 00:40:40,998
patrons to step up to support this

596
00:40:40,998 --> 00:40:42,498
if we want this

597
00:40:42,498 --> 00:40:44,898
revolution to succeed, this movement

598
00:40:44,898 --> 00:40:47,018
to succeed. So that was the idea

599
00:40:47,018 --> 00:40:49,138
behind Bitcoin for the Arts

600
00:40:49,138 --> 00:40:59,959
It's a nonprofit that Dion Wilson, who you mentioned, he's based in New York, former Broadway dancer and actor, now focused primarily on this.

601
00:41:00,738 --> 00:41:08,618
It was his idea. It's sort of an actualization of what we talked about in Prague in 2024, I think, right? That summer.

602
00:41:08,618 --> 00:41:12,498
and the idea is really simple

603
00:41:12,498 --> 00:41:16,558
this is an organization that takes

604
00:41:16,558 --> 00:41:20,038
donations just as OpenSats does

605
00:41:20,038 --> 00:41:25,178
but as OpenSats, what OpenSats does is it looks for the right

606
00:41:25,178 --> 00:41:28,658
developers, the right tools and it invests in them

607
00:41:28,658 --> 00:41:31,338
whether it's, not invests, it donates to them

608
00:41:31,338 --> 00:41:34,898
it has these grants and

609
00:41:34,898 --> 00:41:39,919
And the people who donate to OpenStats, which

610
00:41:39,944 --> 00:41:41,844
let's be honest here, it's just Jack Dorsey

611
00:41:41,844 --> 00:41:43,584
and maybe a couple of others, right?

612
00:41:44,204 --> 00:41:46,264
He's not looking to make money off this, right?

613
00:41:46,404 --> 00:41:50,284
He's, if I were to interpret why he's doing this,

614
00:41:50,344 --> 00:41:52,464
it's because he believes these tools are important

615
00:41:52,464 --> 00:41:55,104
to make society a better place.

616
00:41:55,184 --> 00:41:56,244
We need freedom tech.

617
00:41:56,344 --> 00:41:58,024
We need NOSTA to succeed.

618
00:41:58,144 --> 00:42:00,684
I've had, you know, a whole bunch of NOSTA devs

619
00:42:00,684 --> 00:42:03,384
on my show, Plep Chain Radio,

620
00:42:03,384 --> 00:42:06,384
and a common theme among them is,

621
00:42:06,584 --> 00:42:09,464
yeah, I've built this incredible open source thing,

622
00:42:09,464 --> 00:42:12,064
like whether it's live streaming on Nostra, something else,

623
00:42:12,464 --> 00:42:15,604
none of this would have been possible if I didn't get a donation.

624
00:42:15,904 --> 00:42:18,284
Like there's no way this kind of public commons

625
00:42:18,284 --> 00:42:22,984
that everyone benefits from can be built without donations,

626
00:42:23,284 --> 00:42:24,224
without patronage.

627
00:42:24,464 --> 00:42:27,164
So I suspect that's where Jack Dorsey is coming from, right?

628
00:42:27,204 --> 00:42:29,944
Not to make money, but because these tools are important

629
00:42:29,944 --> 00:42:31,164
to make the world a better place.

630
00:42:31,484 --> 00:42:34,364
And I think patrons need to take a similar view towards art.

631
00:42:35,064 --> 00:42:36,384
You're not going to make money off it,

632
00:42:36,384 --> 00:42:46,824
But we need this to be there so that the movement can thrive, so that there's more beauty in the world, so that people get inspired and can do things then based on that inspiration.

633
00:42:47,444 --> 00:42:48,164
So that is the idea.

634
00:42:48,164 --> 00:42:50,624
It's like an open stats for art.

635
00:42:52,424 --> 00:43:06,624
It will seek donations from patrons and then find art, whether it's commissioning a painting, commissioning a mural, theater, books, TV shows, whatever it might be.

636
00:43:06,624 --> 00:43:13,984
in the artistic realm that promote Bitcoin values, if you will,

637
00:43:14,084 --> 00:43:18,824
values of self-sovereignty and censorship resistance and all of that.

638
00:43:20,044 --> 00:43:24,704
And just help them out that way, help them create their art.

639
00:43:25,324 --> 00:43:26,804
So the fund is up and running.

640
00:43:26,984 --> 00:43:31,344
Is it all done, dusted and listed and ready to go and able to,

641
00:43:31,624 --> 00:43:32,544
can people donate yet?

642
00:43:33,084 --> 00:43:35,484
A few more signatures and paperwork.

643
00:43:36,624 --> 00:43:40,024
getting a non-profit off the ground,

644
00:43:40,144 --> 00:43:41,224
especially in the state of New York,

645
00:43:41,264 --> 00:43:42,924
is not the easiest thing in the world.

646
00:43:43,284 --> 00:43:45,864
There's an absurd amount of paperwork and bureaucracy.

647
00:43:46,064 --> 00:43:47,684
So I think we're in the final stages of that.

648
00:43:47,944 --> 00:43:50,064
A lot of the operational infrastructure

649
00:43:50,064 --> 00:43:51,364
is falling into place.

650
00:43:51,944 --> 00:43:53,984
And I think within the next few weeks,

651
00:43:54,184 --> 00:43:58,384
I'm hoping by before the end of February of 2026,

652
00:43:58,604 --> 00:44:00,944
we'll be in a position to start reaching out

653
00:44:00,944 --> 00:44:06,324
to donors, patrons, and building up the base.

654
00:44:06,624 --> 00:44:14,584
that's amazing and uh yeah well done to dion because he took the action uh it was um brilliant

655
00:44:14,584 --> 00:44:20,924
to see him on that panel and uh he brought some very interesting statistics with him as well that

656
00:44:20,924 --> 00:44:27,124
painted the picture of of how bleak it is out there in general in the uh the the art scene and

657
00:44:27,124 --> 00:44:33,644
the culture scene because yeah well guess what it's it's not important to the uh the puppet masters

658
00:44:33,644 --> 00:44:41,784
yeah but they don't want to inspire people they want people to be uh nihilistic because they're

659
00:44:41,784 --> 00:44:49,444
easier to and and then what do they do they watch ad infested nihilistic tv shows uh that suck the

660
00:44:49,444 --> 00:44:55,644
joy out of them um they go back because they're so uninspired they don't try to break out of that

661
00:44:55,644 --> 00:45:03,264
nine-to-five job, their spirit is broken, and they just keep the good, faithful, obedient

662
00:45:03,264 --> 00:45:04,724
cogs in the machine.

663
00:45:06,004 --> 00:45:13,144
Art can be dangerous because it can give people, quote-unquote, bad ideas, right, that inspire

664
00:45:13,144 --> 00:45:16,824
them to do things that are non-compliant, unapproved.

665
00:45:18,164 --> 00:45:22,984
So that's another thing that you're involved in, which we didn't touch in on that first

666
00:45:22,984 --> 00:45:31,104
like list that we put out there because you added to it Noster Startup. So what are you doing now

667
00:45:31,104 --> 00:45:37,944
on Noster? Yeah. So about a year or so ago, actually at this point, a year and a half ago,

668
00:45:37,944 --> 00:45:42,984
I had this idea. I was chatting with Vitor Pamplona, who was the creator of Amethyst. I

669
00:45:42,984 --> 00:45:47,964
think you use Amethyst, right? And then there's this guy, John Gordon. He's part of this company.

670
00:45:47,964 --> 00:45:51,884
He's a Bitcoiner and Nostagai, Satoshi Health Advisors.

671
00:45:52,004 --> 00:45:56,624
And all of us happen to have, even Vitor actually had a prior health tech background.

672
00:45:57,204 --> 00:46:04,104
And we said, look, there's got to be a way in which we can streamline healthcare data

673
00:46:04,104 --> 00:46:06,804
because the current fiat system is just absolutely terrible.

674
00:46:07,604 --> 00:46:14,564
The companies control all the data and, you know, the patients get shafted.

675
00:46:14,564 --> 00:46:21,544
doctors that don't have clear visibility into the patient's medical file, all of that stuff.

676
00:46:22,144 --> 00:46:28,864
That was the initial idea behind this company. We called it Nos Fabrica, our factory in Latin,

677
00:46:29,364 --> 00:46:35,344
right? One of the things, as we were just building stuff out, we didn't immediately

678
00:46:35,344 --> 00:46:39,844
seek out investment. At the time, we thought, well, let's just tinker around a little bit and

679
00:46:39,844 --> 00:46:45,224
see where we can get, we did us, you know, we, out of our pockets, we funded a small hackathon

680
00:46:45,224 --> 00:46:52,084
for healthcare use cases. And that was really well intended. We had 25, 30 people attend each call,

681
00:46:52,744 --> 00:46:56,444
devs, and then we had seven or eight submissions. So that was really good.

682
00:46:56,924 --> 00:47:02,264
That takes us into this summer. And then we was, you know, we were running into some

683
00:47:02,264 --> 00:47:08,224
open questions, which is in a decentralized system, some, and let's say we build a marketplace

684
00:47:08,224 --> 00:47:10,624
for patients looking for care,

685
00:47:10,844 --> 00:47:12,724
or even if it's holistic care, right?

686
00:47:13,064 --> 00:47:17,164
Someone's looking for a functional medicine practitioner

687
00:47:17,164 --> 00:47:19,204
or New German medicine practitioner,

688
00:47:19,304 --> 00:47:20,144
whatever it might be.

689
00:47:20,284 --> 00:47:21,404
And they're on NOSTA,

690
00:47:21,464 --> 00:47:22,644
they go to this NOSTA marketplace

691
00:47:22,644 --> 00:47:24,124
and someone's listed there.

692
00:47:24,604 --> 00:47:25,944
In a perfect world,

693
00:47:26,304 --> 00:47:27,124
they make an appointment,

694
00:47:27,284 --> 00:47:28,024
they zap them,

695
00:47:28,464 --> 00:47:30,724
and then they can have a secure video session.

696
00:47:31,664 --> 00:47:32,844
And that's that.

697
00:47:33,144 --> 00:47:34,444
The problem is,

698
00:47:34,544 --> 00:47:36,964
just because someone says they're a doctor,

699
00:47:37,764 --> 00:47:39,184
How do you know they're a doctor?

700
00:47:39,284 --> 00:47:40,304
It's an open system, right?

701
00:47:40,324 --> 00:47:41,304
There's no KYC.

702
00:47:43,504 --> 00:47:45,544
We certainly didn't want to get into that business saying,

703
00:47:45,664 --> 00:47:47,104
okay, we will create the marketplace.

704
00:47:47,564 --> 00:47:49,264
You give us your license and credentials.

705
00:47:49,464 --> 00:47:52,764
We'll run a verification and give you a green shield

706
00:47:52,764 --> 00:47:54,384
or green check mark on your profile.

707
00:47:54,804 --> 00:47:55,884
We certainly didn't want to do that.

708
00:47:55,884 --> 00:47:58,184
That's just recreating fiat gatekeepers.

709
00:47:59,164 --> 00:48:01,284
So the problem becomes,

710
00:48:01,464 --> 00:48:03,504
how do you know someone who says they're a patient

711
00:48:03,504 --> 00:48:04,424
is actually a patient?

712
00:48:04,744 --> 00:48:05,624
They could be a scammer.

713
00:48:05,624 --> 00:48:08,204
Someone who says they're a doctor is actually a doctor.

714
00:48:08,324 --> 00:48:09,144
It's just an end pub.

715
00:48:09,344 --> 00:48:09,964
How do you know?

716
00:48:10,844 --> 00:48:15,024
So that's when we realized we need to solve a more fundamental problem

717
00:48:15,024 --> 00:48:18,944
before we can even get to healthcare, which is that web of trust.

718
00:48:19,884 --> 00:48:25,364
So we were in conversations late in the summer, early fall of last year, 2025,

719
00:48:26,364 --> 00:48:30,064
with another NOSTA guy, David Strahan.

720
00:48:30,064 --> 00:48:34,384
He's a neurosurgeon, neurologist, sorry.

721
00:48:35,624 --> 00:48:39,704
And he had spent the last few years studying web of trust.

722
00:48:40,224 --> 00:48:45,084
And he built this web of trust engine called Brainstorm.

723
00:48:45,244 --> 00:48:48,024
I mean, he's a neurologist and he built Brainstorm.

724
00:48:49,384 --> 00:48:53,164
And that's when we realized that we need to pivot

725
00:48:53,164 --> 00:48:57,744
into solving the web of trust issue with NOSTA.

726
00:48:57,744 --> 00:49:00,524
And that's where NOS Fabrica, the name works well.

727
00:49:00,864 --> 00:49:03,164
While in Latin it means our factory,

728
00:49:03,444 --> 00:49:05,144
but it's also the fabric of NOSTA.

729
00:49:05,624 --> 00:49:07,664
in some sense, which is this trust layer.

730
00:49:08,064 --> 00:49:14,624
So how do you build a trust layer in an open and non-gate-capped way?

731
00:49:15,344 --> 00:49:18,464
So this is where Web of Trust comes in.

732
00:49:18,564 --> 00:49:22,024
That's what we're working on, and we've been working on that

733
00:49:22,024 --> 00:49:23,904
for the last five or six months now.

734
00:49:24,364 --> 00:49:26,424
And we'll be rolling out some prototypes

735
00:49:26,424 --> 00:49:29,324
and then some reference apps on top of that.

736
00:49:29,324 --> 00:49:31,244
So I'll give you some examples.

737
00:49:31,244 --> 00:49:38,524
you listen to you know joe martin's music and all fountain has a lot of music out there right

738
00:49:38,524 --> 00:49:44,464
it's part of the open music ecosystem joe martin ainsley costello all these others i suspect you've

739
00:49:44,464 --> 00:49:51,144
had them on on your show in the past longy as well yeah longy yeah yeah shout out to aaron the uh

740
00:49:51,144 --> 00:49:56,504
yeah the the murray from the flight of the concords of the bitcoin world yes the band

741
00:49:56,504 --> 00:50:04,764
manager with the most yes nathan as well yeah he's doing such great work yeah yeah so yes yeah

742
00:50:04,764 --> 00:50:09,184
so so there's aaron on on that side of the pond there's open mic and others on this side of the

743
00:50:09,184 --> 00:50:16,344
pond in the u.s uh who are doing we're getting these independent artists onto nostril now if you

744
00:50:16,344 --> 00:50:21,844
as a listener you might not know all of these artists you might if you ever listen to them you

745
00:50:21,844 --> 00:50:23,684
You might really love their music, right?

746
00:50:24,124 --> 00:50:32,904
If you go to a website like Fountain or any other that browses these catalogs of independent artists, how do you find someone?

747
00:50:33,844 --> 00:50:37,724
How do you know that you're going to like Longhi if you don't even know who Longhi is?

748
00:50:38,584 --> 00:50:44,944
So there is no curation or discovery today in this open music system.

749
00:50:44,944 --> 00:50:50,604
And that's where Weber Truskin comes in at a couple of levels.

750
00:50:50,604 --> 00:51:03,844
One, if someone in you, it could be as simple as someone in your follows list either zapped or liked or reacted with a song on Fountain, right?

751
00:51:03,864 --> 00:51:06,644
That would show up and you say, oh, who's this longy guy?

752
00:51:06,764 --> 00:51:12,624
Why did this guy I follow zap it like a thousand or ten thousand sets?

753
00:51:12,824 --> 00:51:13,804
Let me check it out.

754
00:51:13,804 --> 00:51:22,924
So at that very basic level of just follows, you can get a sense of who the people in your network are listening to.

755
00:51:22,944 --> 00:51:26,204
So that improves discovery and is the first layer of curation.

756
00:51:26,404 --> 00:51:29,724
But you could take that to the next level, make it contextual.

757
00:51:30,324 --> 00:51:38,424
Within your web of trust, the web of trust being the people you follow and the ones they follow who are not bots, right?

758
00:51:38,424 --> 00:51:42,744
And there are algorithms that can filter that out from your perspective.

759
00:51:43,804 --> 00:51:48,244
you can build a subset which is contextual.

760
00:51:48,704 --> 00:51:50,584
So you have a broad web of trust,

761
00:51:50,704 --> 00:51:52,684
but you also have a music web of trust.

762
00:51:52,764 --> 00:51:53,924
You have a food web of trust.

763
00:51:54,104 --> 00:51:56,064
I could trust your taste in music,

764
00:51:56,064 --> 00:51:57,484
but not your taste in food.

765
00:51:57,804 --> 00:51:59,724
I'd go to someone else for food recommendations.

766
00:51:59,984 --> 00:52:12,771
Yeah I could be vegan or some shit right Yeah exactly I sorry I sorry guys Please don hate me That was just a joke Go ahead By the way Roger 9000 our friend

767
00:52:13,131 --> 00:52:16,311
who is a carnivore adherent,

768
00:52:16,851 --> 00:52:18,091
Roger, I'm sorry I'm doing this to you,

769
00:52:18,091 --> 00:52:19,751
but I have to let the cat out of the bag,

770
00:52:20,391 --> 00:52:21,231
loves broccoli.

771
00:52:22,451 --> 00:52:24,471
Oh, wow.

772
00:52:25,011 --> 00:52:25,851
I mean, yeah.

773
00:52:26,571 --> 00:52:29,671
To the point, it's a level of obsession I have never seen.

774
00:52:29,931 --> 00:52:32,851
He has to have broccoli with every single meal.

775
00:52:34,171 --> 00:52:41,271
Anyway, but you can have subsets in your web of trust.

776
00:52:42,491 --> 00:52:45,431
And that makes it contextual.

777
00:52:45,791 --> 00:52:48,251
And that improves the discovery and curation process.

778
00:52:48,311 --> 00:52:51,051
So you can find music that you're actually looking for,

779
00:52:51,091 --> 00:52:52,631
that you might have never heard of, right?

780
00:52:52,771 --> 00:52:55,131
So that's one example of how web of trust can help.

781
00:52:56,831 --> 00:52:58,411
You know, if you're looking for a doctor,

782
00:52:58,411 --> 00:53:01,971
someone in your network, someone you trust has gone to that doctor,

783
00:53:02,071 --> 00:53:03,811
has given them a review, right?

784
00:53:03,851 --> 00:53:04,651
It's not a...

785
00:53:04,651 --> 00:53:09,411
Well, I already wrote down, you said David Strayhorn?

786
00:53:10,071 --> 00:53:10,911
Horn, yes.

787
00:53:10,911 --> 00:53:13,931
David Strayhorn, because my son's suffering with some migraines,

788
00:53:14,011 --> 00:53:15,891
so I would love to talk to a neurologist,

789
00:53:15,951 --> 00:53:18,271
but I don't want to just go get a referral.

790
00:53:19,851 --> 00:53:20,951
Who are the Bitcoiners?

791
00:53:21,171 --> 00:53:22,631
Yes, I could reach out to Jack Cruz,

792
00:53:22,711 --> 00:53:24,231
and now you've just given me another name.

793
00:53:24,611 --> 00:53:25,571
So this is great.

794
00:53:25,571 --> 00:53:32,251
and i can send you his details after after this daniel you should at some point get him on the

795
00:53:32,251 --> 00:53:38,511
show as well he's a yeah like a uh he has a lot of good thoughts on on this so he's in no pun

796
00:53:38,511 --> 00:53:44,971
intended the brains behind the algorithm and i call it algorithm loosely because it's not algorithm

797
00:53:44,971 --> 00:53:49,391
this web of trust is not an algorithm in the sense that there's a centralized entity that

798
00:53:49,391 --> 00:53:54,771
has this black box that dictates what you see and what you don't see.

799
00:53:54,911 --> 00:54:00,531
It's a personalized algorithm that's entirely based on your network

800
00:54:00,531 --> 00:54:04,531
of people you trust in certain contexts and who you follow and so on.

801
00:54:04,711 --> 00:54:07,151
So zaps, you can use economic signals.

802
00:54:07,151 --> 00:54:11,931
If someone you trust is zapping someone for a certain service,

803
00:54:11,991 --> 00:54:13,471
you're like, wait, why did they do that?

804
00:54:13,591 --> 00:54:15,491
Oh, maybe they're worth it.

805
00:54:15,491 --> 00:54:19,471
Right. So a lot of cool things you could do.

806
00:54:19,991 --> 00:54:23,891
And I believe Web of Trust is the missing piece in NOSTA

807
00:54:23,891 --> 00:54:27,831
because that improves the search, discovery and curation process.

808
00:54:28,071 --> 00:54:31,151
And I think it'll make the user experience a lot better for people.

809
00:54:32,311 --> 00:54:33,811
Are other people working on this as well?

810
00:54:35,151 --> 00:54:39,191
There are different groups working on different implementations of Web of Trust.

811
00:54:39,491 --> 00:54:41,291
Yes, but it's all additive.

812
00:54:43,031 --> 00:54:45,231
Also, you don't want NOS Fabrica, my company,

813
00:54:45,491 --> 00:54:47,751
to be the only web of trust provider.

814
00:54:48,011 --> 00:54:49,651
Again, that defeats the purpose, right?

815
00:54:49,711 --> 00:54:52,251
The whole point is we're building it in a decentralized system

816
00:54:52,251 --> 00:54:55,611
and we want multiple options.

817
00:54:56,271 --> 00:55:00,051
So from what I understand, our mutual friend Shadrach

818
00:55:00,051 --> 00:55:04,411
is building out like the DHL of the Bitcoin world.

819
00:55:04,571 --> 00:55:05,051
Yes, A to B.

820
00:55:05,691 --> 00:55:06,911
Right, A to B, exactly.

821
00:55:07,511 --> 00:55:11,051
And taking on like the dreadful postal system.

822
00:55:11,051 --> 00:55:14,391
But that, I assume, has been built up very much

823
00:55:14,391 --> 00:55:16,751
around the web of trust kind of ethos,

824
00:55:16,851 --> 00:55:19,311
because if you're shipping, in his case,

825
00:55:19,891 --> 00:55:22,051
it could be very fragile,

826
00:55:22,631 --> 00:55:25,551
it could be highly expensive equipment,

827
00:55:25,551 --> 00:55:27,711
or it could be artwork.

828
00:55:29,411 --> 00:55:32,771
Yeah, that web of trust that needs building.

829
00:55:33,531 --> 00:55:34,151
Yeah, we're talking,

830
00:55:34,631 --> 00:55:36,371
we're working with Shadrach on that.

831
00:55:37,731 --> 00:55:39,411
And here's the really cool thing

832
00:55:39,411 --> 00:55:41,011
about the shipping, right?

833
00:55:41,011 --> 00:55:48,271
which is a tweak that they have, that A to B has.

834
00:55:48,971 --> 00:55:51,371
So think about it this way.

835
00:55:51,371 --> 00:55:56,671
In the fiat system, in the non-Bitcoiner world,

836
00:55:56,971 --> 00:55:59,071
you go to Amazon, you order a package.

837
00:55:59,631 --> 00:56:01,031
The merchant knows where you live.

838
00:56:02,811 --> 00:56:04,651
You've disclosed your address to them.

839
00:56:05,151 --> 00:56:09,671
Now, if you think about how Tor or even Lightning works,

840
00:56:09,671 --> 00:56:11,111
lightning routing works

841
00:56:11,111 --> 00:56:15,871
it's onion routed essentially

842
00:56:15,871 --> 00:56:17,191
what that means is

843
00:56:17,191 --> 00:56:20,411
the originator sends to one hop

844
00:56:20,411 --> 00:56:21,151
the first hop

845
00:56:21,151 --> 00:56:23,431
that hop sends to the next hop

846
00:56:23,431 --> 00:56:27,091
none of these hops know for sure

847
00:56:27,091 --> 00:56:30,531
if the one they received the payment from

848
00:56:30,531 --> 00:56:31,431
is the originator

849
00:56:31,431 --> 00:56:33,751
and the one they're sending to is the destination

850
00:56:33,751 --> 00:56:35,571
they just know that they're in the middle

851
00:56:35,571 --> 00:56:42,911
and they're just transmitting this payment information.

852
00:56:43,031 --> 00:56:43,931
Same thing with Tor, right?

853
00:56:43,951 --> 00:56:45,291
That's how these data packets move.

854
00:56:46,191 --> 00:56:47,731
You have these multiple hops

855
00:56:47,731 --> 00:56:50,231
and it goes from source to destination

856
00:56:50,231 --> 00:56:53,091
and no one knows because you can't trace it.

857
00:56:56,091 --> 00:56:59,071
That's a tweak they could add to this A to B as well,

858
00:56:59,211 --> 00:57:00,711
onion-routed physical mailing.

859
00:57:00,871 --> 00:57:02,991
So that way when you order something from Amazon,

860
00:57:02,991 --> 00:57:05,691
they get the address of the first drop-off point.

861
00:57:06,311 --> 00:57:08,151
Not Amazon, but you know what I mean.

862
00:57:08,231 --> 00:57:09,851
Let's say from Plebeian Market, right?

863
00:57:10,451 --> 00:57:11,331
Shout out Chief Monkey.

864
00:57:11,931 --> 00:57:13,751
You order something on Nostra, right?

865
00:57:16,011 --> 00:57:20,991
Raw milk is a bad idea because it goes bad.

866
00:57:22,691 --> 00:57:23,551
Something durable.

867
00:57:24,011 --> 00:57:24,451
Soap miner.

868
00:57:25,111 --> 00:57:26,191
A soap miner, okay.

869
00:57:26,831 --> 00:57:29,991
Now, soap miner, maybe he's a trustworthy guy,

870
00:57:30,051 --> 00:57:32,391
but let's just say it's another guy who's selling soap,

871
00:57:32,391 --> 00:57:34,131
and you're like, look, I want to protect my privacy.

872
00:57:34,231 --> 00:57:36,431
I don't want to give my physical mailing address

873
00:57:36,431 --> 00:57:38,631
to someone on Nostrad.

874
00:57:38,671 --> 00:57:42,391
Now, you pick a vendor who's in the web of trust, right?

875
00:57:42,431 --> 00:57:43,391
Like, okay, this is trusted.

876
00:57:43,931 --> 00:57:47,131
My friends have interacted, have done business with him,

877
00:57:47,171 --> 00:57:48,271
so good rating,

878
00:57:48,871 --> 00:57:50,391
but I still don't want to give him my address.

879
00:57:50,631 --> 00:57:51,311
You order from him.

880
00:57:51,571 --> 00:57:54,131
He drops it off at the first location, right?

881
00:57:54,651 --> 00:57:56,971
He doesn't know if that first location is a destination

882
00:57:56,971 --> 00:57:59,231
or what, right?

883
00:57:59,291 --> 00:58:00,591
So the first location guy gets it.

884
00:58:00,591 --> 00:58:02,971
He doesn't know if Soap Miner is the originator.

885
00:58:03,451 --> 00:58:08,231
All he knows is he has to take this and drop it off at the second destination, this courier, right?

886
00:58:08,251 --> 00:58:11,391
He drops it off at the second destination and so on and so on.

887
00:58:11,451 --> 00:58:12,551
Ultimately, it gets to you.

888
00:58:12,811 --> 00:58:18,671
The only one who knows what your address is is the guy who dropped it off at your place.

889
00:58:18,731 --> 00:58:22,331
And even he doesn't know if you're the final recipient or not.

890
00:58:22,911 --> 00:58:24,151
So that's a really cool thing.

891
00:58:24,251 --> 00:58:30,371
Onion-routed physical mailing, it's obviously going to be more expensive because of all the hops in between.

892
00:58:30,371 --> 00:58:32,371
but it's amazing for privacy.

893
00:58:33,891 --> 00:58:38,331
And you need a web of trust to know that all these hops

894
00:58:38,331 --> 00:58:41,231
are not going to make off with your expensive art

895
00:58:41,231 --> 00:58:42,171
or whatever it might be.

896
00:58:42,671 --> 00:58:46,111
I'm a daily user of Nostra, as you know,

897
00:58:46,291 --> 00:58:48,611
and every day I open it.

898
00:58:48,971 --> 00:58:51,811
In fact, I think every time I check the feed,

899
00:58:52,031 --> 00:58:54,351
which is less than it ever was with Twitter,

900
00:58:54,811 --> 00:58:59,671
it just goes to show you how programmable humans are

901
00:58:59,671 --> 00:59:05,071
and how good the Twitter algos had become.

902
00:59:05,771 --> 00:59:07,251
It's off my phone now completely.

903
00:59:07,371 --> 00:59:12,211
I only ever look at it when I'm on my desktop or laptop, excuse me.

904
00:59:12,691 --> 00:59:16,791
But when I look at Nostra, someone's just spun up a whole new idea

905
00:59:16,791 --> 00:59:18,611
and that's being built out.

906
00:59:18,611 --> 00:59:24,691
And I tweeted, excuse me, posted, reposted to you just before we hit record

907
00:59:24,691 --> 00:59:28,691
because Derek Ross has now just spun up Podster or something.

908
00:59:28,691 --> 00:59:33,851
like you know yeah i've not even had a chance to look at it it's like own your content own your

909
00:59:33,851 --> 00:59:39,651
uh listeners own your i'm like all right this sounds cool uh ben weeks tagged me in it so i'm

910
00:59:39,651 --> 00:59:44,931
like okay i'm gonna have to have a look at that now but everything's moving so fast yeah it's hard

911
00:59:44,931 --> 00:59:50,811
to keep well it's also vibe coding has just made it so much easier right um to just like people who

912
00:59:50,811 --> 00:59:56,611
are not necessarily full-fledged devs technical enough to understand systems architecture but not

913
00:59:56,611 --> 00:59:59,191
that technical that they could write a full-fledged app.

914
00:59:59,271 --> 01:00:00,191
Now just use AI.

915
01:00:00,431 --> 01:00:03,591
They bring their technical architecture expertise

916
01:00:03,591 --> 01:00:05,791
so they can actually prompt the AI properly.

917
01:00:06,391 --> 01:00:08,811
And then the AI just does the grunt work

918
01:00:08,811 --> 01:00:09,751
of writing the code.

919
01:00:10,851 --> 01:00:12,691
And you have a full-fledged app.

920
01:00:13,291 --> 01:00:14,011
It's really cool.

921
01:00:15,731 --> 01:00:16,151
Wow, man.

922
01:00:16,711 --> 01:00:17,831
So, all right.

923
01:00:17,891 --> 01:00:19,411
So we've done the book.

924
01:00:19,751 --> 01:00:20,631
We've done Noster.

925
01:00:21,411 --> 01:00:22,511
We talked about the culture.

926
01:00:23,111 --> 01:00:24,331
Talked about the TV show.

927
01:00:24,331 --> 01:00:33,131
it leaves us with the podcast or the podcasts uh yes what what are the different flavors what

928
01:00:33,131 --> 01:00:40,891
what's the different projects yeah so up until about last month actually end of 2025

929
01:00:40,891 --> 01:00:49,551
i had just one podcast pleb chain radio um and uh it was a show focused on bitcoin and

930
01:00:49,551 --> 01:00:55,891
Nostra, we'd get builders and devs and people in culture, you know, doing cool things. And we had

931
01:00:55,891 --> 01:01:02,331
really nice conversations with them. What was happening, and I'd been doing it, I'd started it

932
01:01:02,331 --> 01:01:10,451
in March of February or March of 2023. So almost three years now. And the last few months, I'd been

933
01:01:10,451 --> 01:01:15,811
like, this is getting repetitive. This is just getting old, having the same conversations with

934
01:01:15,811 --> 01:01:20,150
people. Yes, they're lovely people and they have interesting things to say, but I'm not feeling

935
01:01:20,150 --> 01:01:26,231
intellectually challenged anymore. So I was kind of coming in and just going through the motions

936
01:01:26,231 --> 01:01:33,991
for the last, by December, up under the last 10 or 15 episodes. I'd just been going through the

937
01:01:33,991 --> 01:01:38,650
motions and I wasn't particularly happy with it. So I said, there's an opportunity here. We either

938
01:01:38,650 --> 01:01:47,311
put an end to the podcast because why go through the motions or it's a new year there's a chance to

939
01:01:47,311 --> 01:01:54,251
hit the reset button go big uh and because i didn't have enough on my plate i decided

940
01:01:54,251 --> 01:02:03,851
no for whatever reason i decided to go big which is um i've upped the production quality

941
01:02:03,851 --> 01:02:09,911
so previously it was just like get a couple of tracks throw them in garage band just scrub you

942
01:02:09,911 --> 01:02:16,650
know the beginning and the end and then toss it up on fountain the next day um now it's i've uh

943
01:02:16,650 --> 01:02:24,650
actually upgraded to logic on my mac which is a you know really production grade uh post-processing

944
01:02:24,650 --> 01:02:38,457
software up the production quality on the audio getting um more guests I started adding music to my show independent music You can pick guys like Joe Martin Longhi and others

945
01:02:38,637 --> 01:02:39,577
You could play a track.

946
01:02:39,857 --> 01:02:41,077
And the beauty is,

947
01:02:41,897 --> 01:02:43,897
as long as it's a track that's on Fountain,

948
01:02:44,517 --> 01:02:45,697
which has all the tracks

949
01:02:45,697 --> 01:02:47,477
that are part of the open music ecosystem,

950
01:02:48,317 --> 01:02:53,917
if someone boosts your show during the song,

951
01:02:53,917 --> 01:02:55,357
you could set the split

952
01:02:55,357 --> 01:02:58,557
majority of the split to go to the artist

953
01:02:58,557 --> 01:03:00,697
so I've set it at 90% during the song

954
01:03:00,697 --> 01:03:01,817
goes to the artist

955
01:03:01,817 --> 01:03:04,457
and the same thing if they're streaming

956
01:03:04,457 --> 01:03:06,937
if someone's streaming 100 sats per minute

957
01:03:06,937 --> 01:03:07,557
let's say

958
01:03:07,557 --> 01:03:10,057
when the song isn't playing

959
01:03:10,057 --> 01:03:13,037
the host gets the 100 sats

960
01:03:13,037 --> 01:03:14,317
but when

961
01:03:14,317 --> 01:03:16,937
the song is playing the host gets 10 sats

962
01:03:16,937 --> 01:03:18,477
and the musician gets 90 sats

963
01:03:18,477 --> 01:03:19,677
just for that duration

964
01:03:19,677 --> 01:03:21,277
it's a really cool piece of tech

965
01:03:21,277 --> 01:03:22,817
that's out there.

966
01:03:22,877 --> 01:03:24,117
It's called Value Time Splits.

967
01:03:24,857 --> 01:03:26,957
So I started doing that for a couple of shows.

968
01:03:26,997 --> 01:03:28,577
And I said, hey, I really like this.

969
01:03:29,017 --> 01:03:31,677
So let me launch a separate show.

970
01:03:32,217 --> 01:03:33,357
That's only music.

971
01:03:33,717 --> 01:03:35,257
So that's called Sunday Brunch.

972
01:03:35,917 --> 01:03:37,557
I've recorded three episodes so far.

973
01:03:37,557 --> 01:03:41,717
I have the next three or four slotted already,

974
01:03:41,957 --> 01:03:43,417
guests booked for that.

975
01:03:43,877 --> 01:03:46,857
And that show is brunch time on the East Coast on Sunday.

976
01:03:47,397 --> 01:03:47,977
I get up.

977
01:03:47,977 --> 01:03:53,077
I have a guest who brings five of their tracks.

978
01:03:53,837 --> 01:03:55,217
They play them, I play one.

979
01:03:55,357 --> 01:03:57,257
We just have lighthearted banter, you know.

980
01:03:58,277 --> 01:04:00,777
As lighthearted as banter between Bitcoiners can be.

981
01:04:00,877 --> 01:04:02,737
Next thing you know, you're talking about chemtrails

982
01:04:02,737 --> 01:04:04,177
and military industrial.

983
01:04:04,617 --> 01:04:07,577
But we try and keep it as lighthearted as possible.

984
01:04:09,437 --> 01:04:11,117
It's fitting for a Sunday brunch.

985
01:04:11,617 --> 01:04:13,757
Just play the music, they talk about the songs,

986
01:04:13,977 --> 01:04:14,897
and we just have a good time.

987
01:04:14,897 --> 01:04:19,757
It's a great way of showcasing the artists in this open music ecosystem, supporting them.

988
01:04:20,377 --> 01:04:21,217
So that's Sunday Brunch.

989
01:04:21,397 --> 01:04:29,657
And then because I'm focused so much on Web of Trust, I have a third show, a more technical one called Say What, W-O-T, Web of Trust.

990
01:04:30,777 --> 01:04:33,477
And there I talk to developers.

991
01:04:33,917 --> 01:04:35,917
And it's a slightly more, I guess, serious show.

992
01:04:36,637 --> 01:04:37,717
It's not about culture.

993
01:04:37,877 --> 01:04:38,577
It's not about music.

994
01:04:38,817 --> 01:04:41,157
It's just about what is the tech that you're building.

995
01:04:41,417 --> 01:04:43,217
And let's talk about that.

996
01:04:43,217 --> 01:04:47,417
So three shows, it's all on the same RSS feed.

997
01:04:48,197 --> 01:04:50,757
And then the other thing I've done is I'm opening,

998
01:04:51,257 --> 01:04:54,797
because now with three shows, it's a network, right?

999
01:04:54,917 --> 01:04:57,117
It's not a podcast anymore, it's a network.

1000
01:04:57,477 --> 01:04:59,137
So I'm opening it up to guest hosts.

1001
01:05:00,137 --> 01:05:01,937
So maybe one of these days, Daniel,

1002
01:05:02,017 --> 01:05:04,277
you could guest host either Sunday brunch or,

1003
01:05:04,997 --> 01:05:05,877
yeah, maybe Sunday brunch.

1004
01:05:06,097 --> 01:05:06,757
Nice, yeah.

1005
01:05:06,797 --> 01:05:10,297
I think I would call my episode Desert Island Dicks.

1006
01:05:13,217 --> 01:05:15,537
and people bring along their,

1007
01:05:15,637 --> 01:05:17,437
a couple of their favorite songs.

1008
01:05:17,437 --> 01:05:21,857
And then we talk about like the three dicks they'd like to send to a

1009
01:05:21,857 --> 01:05:22,477
desert Island.

1010
01:05:23,117 --> 01:05:25,677
I'm pretty sure Peter Schiff would probably be one of those,

1011
01:05:26,297 --> 01:05:27,137
but yeah,

1012
01:05:27,337 --> 01:05:27,777
there's,

1013
01:05:27,777 --> 01:05:29,057
there's the shtick for that show.

1014
01:05:29,817 --> 01:05:30,657
There you go.

1015
01:05:31,017 --> 01:05:31,377
Yeah.

1016
01:05:31,977 --> 01:05:32,217
So,

1017
01:05:32,317 --> 01:05:32,557
but yeah,

1018
01:05:32,557 --> 01:05:33,237
but that is the idea.

1019
01:05:33,277 --> 01:05:34,937
I just expanded out into a network,

1020
01:05:35,137 --> 01:05:36,997
get guest house every now and then,

1021
01:05:37,597 --> 01:05:38,497
you know,

1022
01:05:38,497 --> 01:05:41,997
they keep the majority of the booths and streams that come in.

1023
01:05:41,997 --> 01:05:48,057
and um and then we keep going but it is it it brings me to an interesting point daniel that

1024
01:05:48,057 --> 01:05:53,737
when i've doubled and tripled down on the podcast i think we would we and some others were chatting

1025
01:05:53,737 --> 01:06:00,177
about this um i've spoken to the guys at the bugle and a few others as well who have podcasts

1026
01:06:00,177 --> 01:06:05,377
numbers are down man number going down well we were joking that's what i said at the beginning

1027
01:06:05,377 --> 01:06:09,697
when we're joking with lauren nobody's listening to podcasts anymore but yeah my numbers are down

1028
01:06:09,697 --> 01:06:16,977
And this is something that I don't worry about.

1029
01:06:17,977 --> 01:06:22,337
It's not like I ever did the podcast just to smash the numbers, bro.

1030
01:06:23,077 --> 01:06:26,677
It's because I love doing it and still do.

1031
01:06:28,077 --> 01:06:30,517
So long may that last.

1032
01:06:30,957 --> 01:06:34,697
Otherwise, like you, if I ever get to the point where I'm not enjoying it anymore

1033
01:06:34,697 --> 01:06:36,657
and I find myself just going through the motions,

1034
01:06:36,657 --> 01:06:42,397
I'll firstly just pair it all the way back and maybe just do one or two episodes a month

1035
01:06:42,397 --> 01:06:49,597
or in the end you just you just sail off into the wind like so many have before us that have

1036
01:06:49,597 --> 01:06:56,817
bought so much great content uh I'm I miss the I miss the show still to this day and uh yeah I

1037
01:06:56,817 --> 01:07:01,697
you know John Vallis uh I used to listen to John all the time considering him a great friend

1038
01:07:01,697 --> 01:07:04,537
and I want him to start up his podcast here,

1039
01:07:04,577 --> 01:07:05,517
but he will when he's ready.

1040
01:07:06,157 --> 01:07:07,817
You know, he's only doing it.

1041
01:07:08,017 --> 01:07:08,977
And this is back to like,

1042
01:07:09,057 --> 01:07:11,757
you're not just a cog in the machine.

1043
01:07:12,377 --> 01:07:14,117
You're in charge of your time.

1044
01:07:14,517 --> 01:07:19,117
And unless you've got outrageously large contracts

1045
01:07:19,117 --> 01:07:23,097
with certain sponsors of the show

1046
01:07:23,097 --> 01:07:26,777
that are demanding certain views and clicks

1047
01:07:26,777 --> 01:07:29,557
and all of that, which I've never done

1048
01:07:29,557 --> 01:07:32,717
because that just sounded also fiat in the first place,

1049
01:07:33,317 --> 01:07:37,197
then you could be considered a bit of a cog in the machine.

1050
01:07:38,217 --> 01:07:40,817
Otherwise, yeah, we're just doing this generally

1051
01:07:40,817 --> 01:07:43,957
because it interests us.

1052
01:07:44,577 --> 01:07:50,457
And I wonder what the current landscape is out there right now

1053
01:07:50,457 --> 01:07:56,657
because if I, like, I've spoken to you, Benny Sessions,

1054
01:07:57,437 --> 01:07:59,317
you've spoken to the Bugle guys,

1055
01:07:59,557 --> 01:08:05,337
spoken to a handful of others and uh and everyone's saying and people are hosting on different areas

1056
01:08:05,337 --> 01:08:11,977
as well so you know not everybody's on fountain which you should be as a bitcoin podcaster by the

1057
01:08:11,977 --> 01:08:16,577
way anybody listening support the guys that are building the fucking tools to get us out of this

1058
01:08:16,577 --> 01:08:23,737
freaking hell pit amazing job by the way yeah amazing job nick and oscar thank you for everything

1059
01:08:23,737 --> 01:08:27,497
so yeah what's the feel out there

1060
01:08:27,497 --> 01:08:29,737
I mean I'm talking to Bitcoiners

1061
01:08:29,737 --> 01:08:31,317
I don't want to be the

1062
01:08:31,317 --> 01:08:33,297
I don't want to sound like Nick Carter

1063
01:08:33,297 --> 01:08:35,057
you know I talk to founders every day

1064
01:08:35,057 --> 01:08:38,577
I talk to Bitcoiners every day

1065
01:08:38,577 --> 01:08:42,257
and the people I'm around are grounded

1066
01:08:42,257 --> 01:08:45,497
and they're forever bulls

1067
01:08:45,497 --> 01:08:48,697
it seems something's happening out there

1068
01:08:48,697 --> 01:08:52,777
in the general landscape

1069
01:08:52,777 --> 01:08:58,117
that is confusing people, knocking them off track maybe?

1070
01:08:58,717 --> 01:09:00,197
What are you feeling?

1071
01:09:00,957 --> 01:09:05,317
I sense something that I haven't sensed before in Bitcoin.

1072
01:09:05,317 --> 01:09:11,697
And I'm hoping it's just an unnecessary projection

1073
01:09:11,697 --> 01:09:12,837
or worry that I'm having.

1074
01:09:12,937 --> 01:09:15,197
Because if you remember, Daniel, when was this?

1075
01:09:15,817 --> 01:09:19,477
When the SPF thing happened with FTX

1076
01:09:19,477 --> 01:09:22,177
and we hit the bottom of that bear market,

1077
01:09:22,417 --> 01:09:23,797
2022, right?

1078
01:09:24,217 --> 01:09:25,537
November, December, 2022.

1079
01:09:26,717 --> 01:09:28,097
Bitcoiners were energized then.

1080
01:09:29,477 --> 01:09:32,517
That was the worst of the bear market.

1081
01:09:33,057 --> 01:09:33,657
That was when,

1082
01:09:33,917 --> 01:09:35,297
so a few weeks after that,

1083
01:09:35,377 --> 01:09:36,597
Jack Dorsey put the money,

1084
01:09:37,417 --> 01:09:38,717
donated all the money to NOSTA,

1085
01:09:38,857 --> 01:09:39,877
so everyone joined NOSTA,

1086
01:09:39,977 --> 01:09:43,417
and there was a lot of optimism and building

1087
01:09:43,417 --> 01:09:46,297
that happened in that bear market.

1088
01:09:46,517 --> 01:09:47,797
And you would have thought at that time,

1089
01:09:47,797 --> 01:09:49,457
everyone would be demoralized,

1090
01:09:49,477 --> 01:10:00,897
Like this is, you know, all the bad stuff, Terra, Luna, Celsius, culminating in FTX, and some other smaller implosions in between.

1091
01:10:01,957 --> 01:10:05,517
You would have thought that would have wiped any optimism out.

1092
01:10:05,797 --> 01:10:07,577
In fact, it was the other way.

1093
01:10:08,197 --> 01:10:09,657
It had the opposite effect.

1094
01:10:09,657 --> 01:10:16,677
so i don't remember in the eight or nine years i've been involved in this

1095
01:10:16,677 --> 01:10:25,177
that where it's felt this tepid it's oh it's it's not that people are demoralized it's not

1096
01:10:25,177 --> 01:10:30,377
that apathetic that's the sense i'm which is worse i think than being demoralized

1097
01:10:30,377 --> 01:10:38,537
yeah yeah i can't put my finger on it last year was last year was a tough year

1098
01:10:38,537 --> 01:10:47,117
people took some kicks like we had the the core knots debate that just ripped apart

1099
01:10:47,117 --> 01:10:55,977
the community that ripped apart old friendships that brought into question in people's minds

1100
01:10:55,977 --> 01:11:02,817
certain people that perhaps they held a lot of a lot of hero slaying seems to be going on

1101
01:11:02,817 --> 01:11:07,337
and maybe that's just all part of it.

1102
01:11:07,337 --> 01:11:10,577
And then the Bitcoin treasury company,

1103
01:11:10,957 --> 01:11:14,557
like, humping that balloon up all over the place.

1104
01:11:15,597 --> 01:11:17,897
I think that was worse to me than the core knots debate,

1105
01:11:18,297 --> 01:11:22,777
and I think more damaging to Bitcoin than the core knots debate,

1106
01:11:23,117 --> 01:11:24,577
which is unpleasant in its own right,

1107
01:11:24,757 --> 01:11:28,697
but the financial engineering,

1108
01:11:28,697 --> 01:11:33,797
And it was like the 2017 ICO market.

1109
01:11:34,477 --> 01:11:36,397
You were there for that, Daniel.

1110
01:11:38,137 --> 01:11:42,197
But this was worse because at least with the ICO market,

1111
01:11:42,277 --> 01:11:43,677
you could distance yourself from it saying,

1112
01:11:43,817 --> 01:11:45,477
well, these are all shit coins.

1113
01:11:47,697 --> 01:11:51,437
This was becoming a fundamental part of Bitcoin

1114
01:11:51,437 --> 01:11:54,517
or at least being portrayed as that.

1115
01:11:54,517 --> 01:11:58,657
conferences that we respect and trust

1116
01:11:58,657 --> 01:12:01,937
were putting these people on a pedestal.

1117
01:12:03,877 --> 01:12:05,717
Yeah, I think in some sense,

1118
01:12:05,777 --> 01:12:07,597
the treasury financial engineering stuff

1119
01:12:07,597 --> 01:12:11,917
is more insidious and more harmful to Bitcoin.

1120
01:12:13,077 --> 01:12:13,277
Yeah.

1121
01:12:13,577 --> 01:12:16,277
And again, a lot of hero slaying going along with that.

1122
01:12:16,277 --> 01:12:19,277
And I just want people to understand,

1123
01:12:19,477 --> 01:12:20,917
like fear around and find out.

1124
01:12:20,917 --> 01:12:25,697
we didn't even touch on the loaning

1125
01:12:25,697 --> 01:12:28,317
because all of a sudden

1126
01:12:28,317 --> 01:12:30,497
alongside the Bitcoin treasury companies

1127
01:12:30,497 --> 01:12:32,597
you had a lot of loan products getting released

1128
01:12:32,597 --> 01:12:33,657
and

1129
01:12:33,657 --> 01:12:38,237
look, people can do whatever they want with their money

1130
01:12:38,237 --> 01:12:40,937
it's their decision to make

1131
01:12:40,937 --> 01:12:43,137
and it's not our burden to bear

1132
01:12:43,137 --> 01:12:46,877
but people just rush into these things

1133
01:12:46,877 --> 01:12:47,937
I feel sometimes

1134
01:12:47,937 --> 01:13:06,023
and get over their skis and rather than let things just play out and be careful and stay humble and stack sats and just have more Bitcoin in self next month if you possibly can

1135
01:13:06,023 --> 01:13:16,703
and if you enter into financial engineering games it's a very you are a minnow in that game

1136
01:13:16,703 --> 01:13:25,103
because there's so much fiat floating around in the Bitcoin treasury companies,

1137
01:13:25,103 --> 01:13:28,983
on Wall Street, in the ETFs, in the loan products.

1138
01:13:29,703 --> 01:13:36,323
Because the loan products, especially if you're parking Bitcoin in order to be given fiat,

1139
01:13:36,803 --> 01:13:38,463
that fiat's got to come from somewhere.

1140
01:13:39,523 --> 01:13:42,943
There's got to be a liquidity provider behind the loaner.

1141
01:13:42,943 --> 01:13:58,263
And whether that's venture capitalist companies that are trying to leverage the Bitcoin craze, it's not coming from a place of people who understand fundamentally what's going on.

1142
01:13:58,323 --> 01:14:01,823
It's coming from a place of people like, oh, I can lend out fiat and get 12% back.

1143
01:14:01,983 --> 01:14:06,463
And if they don't pay me back, I can get their Bitcoin and that's all great.

1144
01:14:06,463 --> 01:14:08,343
So who's taking the risk?

1145
01:14:08,403 --> 01:14:08,823
You are.

1146
01:14:09,443 --> 01:14:12,183
And it needs.

1147
01:14:12,183 --> 01:14:19,043
But I think it's great in some sense, though, because it allows us to separate the chaff from the grain.

1148
01:14:19,923 --> 01:14:26,943
The people rushing into it, it's obvious they're in it for the fiat gains all along.

1149
01:14:27,343 --> 01:14:30,823
And the fact that it's a Bitcoin treasury company, it's a Bitcoin product,

1150
01:14:31,303 --> 01:14:38,003
they think it's giving them that fig leaf, that veneer of, oh, at least I'm not shit coining.

1151
01:14:38,003 --> 01:14:40,803
but the fact that you run headlong

1152
01:14:40,803 --> 01:14:42,883
into this financially engineered

1153
01:14:42,883 --> 01:14:46,403
product that is

1154
01:14:46,403 --> 01:14:48,583
the polar opposite of

1155
01:14:48,583 --> 01:14:50,443
Bitcoin and self-custody or using

1156
01:14:50,443 --> 01:14:52,683
Bitcoin as a medium of exchange

1157
01:14:52,683 --> 01:14:56,403
you reveal the fact that you're in it for the

1158
01:14:56,403 --> 01:14:58,603
fiat gains otherwise why would you be doing it

1159
01:14:58,603 --> 01:14:59,963
you're not here to play the long game

1160
01:14:59,963 --> 01:15:01,943
you're not here for

1161
01:15:01,943 --> 01:15:04,303
the cultural revolution

1162
01:15:04,303 --> 01:15:06,443
you're here for making a quick

1163
01:15:06,443 --> 01:15:11,723
buck and then buggering off and buying your yacht or whatever it is so in in some sense it's good

1164
01:15:11,723 --> 01:15:21,423
i think that it allows us to uh to see people in their in their true light uh and then cut cut

1165
01:15:21,423 --> 01:15:28,103
them out of our lives i guess yeah yeah so it's it's been a it's been a rough ride it's been a

1166
01:15:28,103 --> 01:15:35,743
rough ride the last year so yeah is it exhaustion is it uh apathy as you say is it uh

1167
01:15:35,743 --> 01:15:43,543
people just like rage quitting and um like gonna go and concentrate on something else

1168
01:15:43,543 --> 01:15:53,583
who knows uh but it's it's tangible for sure i am yeah all right let's leave it on an optimistic

1169
01:15:53,583 --> 01:16:04,423
note uh 2026 what have you got planned where can people get to meet you in real life will you be

1170
01:16:04,423 --> 01:16:06,643
filming in any of the conferences?

1171
01:16:07,143 --> 01:16:08,903
Is there anything you want to shill

1172
01:16:08,903 --> 01:16:11,943
anywhere that you might need some help

1173
01:16:11,943 --> 01:16:14,403
if anybody has been inspired

1174
01:16:14,403 --> 01:16:16,303
by listening to this conversation?

1175
01:16:17,263 --> 01:16:21,223
Yeah, look, I am actually very optimistic

1176
01:16:21,223 --> 01:16:24,483
about 2026 in the work that I'm doing

1177
01:16:24,483 --> 01:16:27,583
because that's the one thing I can control.

1178
01:16:29,063 --> 01:16:32,883
So I'm, irrespective of the numbers being down

1179
01:16:32,883 --> 01:16:34,683
and even if they stay down,

1180
01:16:34,883 --> 01:16:36,603
I'm doubling and tripling down on the podcast.

1181
01:16:36,843 --> 01:16:37,963
So there will be a lot of that,

1182
01:16:38,343 --> 01:16:39,823
a lot more music, a lot more entertainment

1183
01:16:39,823 --> 01:16:42,503
and a lot more deep discussions on the podcast side.

1184
01:16:43,703 --> 01:16:45,043
Hopefully, if I find the time,

1185
01:16:45,283 --> 01:16:47,883
there will be a third book in the 24 series

1186
01:16:47,883 --> 01:16:48,863
that will come out.

1187
01:16:49,043 --> 01:16:52,043
Fingers crossed that I can actually make it happen this year.

1188
01:16:53,703 --> 01:16:55,723
Then with Finding Home,

1189
01:16:56,223 --> 01:16:57,883
I have a lot of subjects,

1190
01:16:58,203 --> 01:17:00,043
meaning people in different places.

1191
01:17:00,043 --> 01:17:02,783
the next one I really want to do

1192
01:17:02,783 --> 01:17:04,503
is in Bosa, Sardinia.

1193
01:17:04,583 --> 01:17:06,283
There's an amazing character.

1194
01:17:06,823 --> 01:17:07,703
You know him.

1195
01:17:07,703 --> 01:17:09,863
The English expat

1196
01:17:09,863 --> 01:17:10,683
who lives there.

1197
01:17:11,103 --> 01:17:12,463
Amazingly colorful character.

1198
01:17:13,223 --> 01:17:14,503
I'd love to film there.

1199
01:17:15,423 --> 01:17:17,203
There's someone in Bulgaria.

1200
01:17:17,623 --> 01:17:19,203
There's folks in Roatan,

1201
01:17:19,503 --> 01:17:20,243
in the Honduras,

1202
01:17:20,683 --> 01:17:22,203
in Argentina.

1203
01:17:22,683 --> 01:17:24,143
So there are multiple locations

1204
01:17:24,143 --> 01:17:25,423
that I do want to film in.

1205
01:17:26,163 --> 01:17:27,723
Austin as well, in the US.

1206
01:17:27,723 --> 01:17:31,203
I think the thing is

1207
01:17:31,203 --> 01:17:32,223
I just had to work through

1208
01:17:32,223 --> 01:17:34,483
again this is a show that runs on

1209
01:17:34,483 --> 01:17:36,283
at least at this stage on patronage

1210
01:17:36,283 --> 01:17:38,223
I mean there's

1211
01:17:38,223 --> 01:17:40,023
the last few

1212
01:17:40,023 --> 01:17:42,483
the first couple were out of my pocket

1213
01:17:42,483 --> 01:17:44,383
the last two I did find patrons

1214
01:17:44,383 --> 01:17:46,563
who are the directors

1215
01:17:46,563 --> 01:17:48,043
executive directors I should say

1216
01:17:48,043 --> 01:17:50,023
for the show

1217
01:17:50,023 --> 01:17:52,583
so I'm inviting

1218
01:17:52,583 --> 01:17:54,503
people to participate if you like

1219
01:17:54,503 --> 01:17:56,563
the idea of finding home and shining

1220
01:17:56,563 --> 01:18:00,463
a light on this and you would like to participate as an executive producer,

1221
01:18:01,023 --> 01:18:02,503
reach out to me.

1222
01:18:04,483 --> 01:18:07,763
So they're certainly looking forward to making a few episodes of that.

1223
01:18:09,643 --> 01:18:12,663
NOSFabrica, Web of Trust, I think this is the year of Web of Trust on NOSTA.

1224
01:18:13,443 --> 01:18:16,663
I think the user experience is going to elevate significantly

1225
01:18:16,663 --> 01:18:20,743
with improved curation and discovery and spam mitigation

1226
01:18:20,743 --> 01:18:23,843
as well. And then where will I be?

1227
01:18:23,843 --> 01:18:25,023
I haven't

1228
01:18:25,023 --> 01:18:26,143
oh here's one thing

1229
01:18:26,143 --> 01:18:27,483
I was talking about

1230
01:18:27,483 --> 01:18:28,023
meet space

1231
01:18:28,023 --> 01:18:28,943
Belgrade

1232
01:18:28,943 --> 01:18:30,143
I've been working

1233
01:18:30,143 --> 01:18:31,063
with a group of folks

1234
01:18:31,063 --> 01:18:32,923
to do a Valley for Value

1235
01:18:32,923 --> 01:18:33,923
music fest

1236
01:18:33,923 --> 01:18:35,383
in Belgrade

1237
01:18:35,383 --> 01:18:35,903
in Serbia

1238
01:18:35,903 --> 01:18:36,943
it's the week

1239
01:18:36,943 --> 01:18:38,623
after BTC Prague

1240
01:18:38,623 --> 01:18:38,943
so

1241
01:18:38,943 --> 01:18:40,483
as soon as Prague is done

1242
01:18:40,483 --> 01:18:41,243
get on the train

1243
01:18:41,243 --> 01:18:41,923
or motorbike

1244
01:18:41,923 --> 01:18:42,803
or whatever it is

1245
01:18:42,803 --> 01:18:44,643
get yourself to Belgrade

1246
01:18:44,643 --> 01:18:45,423
there's going to be

1247
01:18:45,423 --> 01:18:46,163
an amazing

1248
01:18:46,163 --> 01:18:47,543
Valley for Value

1249
01:18:47,543 --> 01:18:48,463
music show there

1250
01:18:48,463 --> 01:18:49,523
we have a great

1251
01:18:49,523 --> 01:18:50,543
lineup of bands

1252
01:18:50,543 --> 01:18:51,763
we have the

1253
01:18:51,763 --> 01:18:53,763
we found funding

1254
01:18:53,763 --> 01:18:54,843
to cover the venue.

1255
01:18:55,003 --> 01:18:56,283
We're still working

1256
01:18:56,283 --> 01:18:57,063
through some sponsors

1257
01:18:57,063 --> 01:18:59,163
to make sure our artists get paid,

1258
01:18:59,243 --> 01:19:00,243
which is really important,

1259
01:19:00,443 --> 01:19:00,843
by the way.

1260
01:19:00,923 --> 01:19:01,403
There's another thing

1261
01:19:01,403 --> 01:19:02,263
I should point out, Daniel.

1262
01:19:02,843 --> 01:19:04,303
Roger 9000, who I mentioned,

1263
01:19:04,703 --> 01:19:06,583
is making a case for this,

1264
01:19:06,663 --> 01:19:08,863
which is so many Bitcoin conferences

1265
01:19:08,863 --> 01:19:10,523
get musicians to play

1266
01:19:10,523 --> 01:19:11,943
and they expect the musicians

1267
01:19:11,943 --> 01:19:13,323
to travel on their own time,

1268
01:19:13,983 --> 01:19:15,083
pay for their hotels.

1269
01:19:15,763 --> 01:19:17,023
And if they get a few sats

1270
01:19:17,023 --> 01:19:18,503
in the value for value concert,

1271
01:19:18,783 --> 01:19:20,543
then, hey, that's your prize.

1272
01:19:20,863 --> 01:19:22,163
And I think that needs to change.

1273
01:19:22,303 --> 01:19:23,603
And we want to lead by example

1274
01:19:23,603 --> 01:19:26,483
in the Serbia concert where we will raise enough money

1275
01:19:26,483 --> 01:19:28,503
to ensure that the artists get paid.

1276
01:19:29,083 --> 01:19:30,523
And of course, their costs are covered.

1277
01:19:31,383 --> 01:19:32,763
So that's something to look forward to.

1278
01:19:32,803 --> 01:19:33,683
It's going to be a great show.

1279
01:19:34,143 --> 01:19:36,103
The bar is called Zappa.

1280
01:19:36,503 --> 01:19:42,843
It's a floating restaurant on a wharf in Belgrade.

1281
01:19:43,203 --> 01:19:44,243
Amazing location.

1282
01:19:44,883 --> 01:19:47,403
Zappa bar, what better place for a Valley for Valley concert?

1283
01:19:48,143 --> 01:19:49,943
So that'll be around the 20th of June, you say?

1284
01:19:50,803 --> 01:19:51,963
18th and 19th of June.

1285
01:19:52,163 --> 01:19:53,283
18th, 19th of June.

1286
01:19:53,283 --> 01:19:55,383
straight off to Prague

1287
01:19:55,383 --> 01:19:57,563
will you be in Prague?

1288
01:19:58,563 --> 01:19:59,843
I'm not sure yet

1289
01:19:59,843 --> 01:20:01,963
because my

1290
01:20:01,963 --> 01:20:04,203
Ishan is going to be

1291
01:20:04,203 --> 01:20:06,243
spending the year abroad next year

1292
01:20:06,243 --> 01:20:08,343
on an exchange

1293
01:20:08,343 --> 01:20:10,263
program so might want

1294
01:20:10,263 --> 01:20:12,183
to spend some time with him

1295
01:20:12,183 --> 01:20:13,503
before he leaves

1296
01:20:13,503 --> 01:20:14,063
absolutely

1297
01:20:14,063 --> 01:20:17,363
family first mate

1298
01:20:17,363 --> 01:20:19,303
that June

1299
01:20:19,303 --> 01:20:21,703
there's the

1300
01:20:21,703 --> 01:20:23,583
Bitcoin Film Fest in Warsaw.

1301
01:20:24,583 --> 01:20:26,643
There's Prague the week after that.

1302
01:20:26,643 --> 01:20:29,623
And then there's Belgrade right after that.

1303
01:20:29,823 --> 01:20:34,343
So it's, if I could, I'd be in Europe for the whole of June.

1304
01:20:35,903 --> 01:20:37,883
For now, it's looking just like Belgrade.

1305
01:20:39,003 --> 01:20:39,643
Right. Okay.

1306
01:20:39,843 --> 01:20:41,523
Mate, that's a great, great shill.

1307
01:20:41,943 --> 01:20:47,503
And yeah, so for people, that'll be on Club Orange as well, that event.

1308
01:20:47,783 --> 01:20:50,563
And they'll be able to go and look at that and sign up to it,

1309
01:20:50,563 --> 01:20:58,063
get tickets buy tickets um through that and uh yeah meet space it's where we need to go

1310
01:20:58,063 --> 01:21:03,603
so much great stuff can happen obviously on the conversations that we have the podcast that you

1311
01:21:03,603 --> 01:21:11,003
listen to the hackathons that you might throw over you know the internet but it's so much different

1312
01:21:11,003 --> 01:21:20,223
when you get together in yeah physical space together in real life scenarios

1313
01:21:20,223 --> 01:21:28,683
uh it's just um yeah could you compare a hackathon online where you're just the dude literally in

1314
01:21:28,683 --> 01:21:36,163
your bedroom or like 50 people in in a big hall together all bouncing ideas around each other

1315
01:21:36,163 --> 01:21:43,143
i mean it's just obvious right so yeah it's going to be more more uh proactive and with the music

1316
01:21:43,143 --> 01:21:51,143
that's awesome yeah i remember i remember that idea being generated uh and here you guys are and

1317
01:21:51,143 --> 01:21:56,023
i think uh even somebody asked uh prince philip he's like yeah dude can we do it at the palace

1318
01:21:56,023 --> 01:22:04,243
yes they did i think it's a little complicated so we picked the next best thing which is a bar

1319
01:22:04,243 --> 01:22:11,023
called zapper perfect absolutely love it all right mate well i hope people reach out if they're

1320
01:22:11,023 --> 01:22:17,203
interested to connect and uh and go check out pleb chain radio where um you're obviously hosting

1321
01:22:17,203 --> 01:22:23,483
with fountain and all listeners please switch your listening habits get off spotify and apple and

1322
01:22:23,483 --> 01:22:29,283
start you know really leaning into the the projects and the tools that have been built by big companies

1323
01:22:29,283 --> 01:22:39,083
out there yeah love it thanks daniel oh hang on the orange pill question oh yeah i forgot i almost

1324
01:22:39,083 --> 01:22:42,463
And of course, you've answered this before, and I'll never remember.

1325
01:22:42,963 --> 01:22:46,903
But if you had one last orange pill left to give to somebody, who would you give it to and what?

1326
01:22:47,563 --> 01:22:53,203
Last time I said someone like a Cristiano Ronaldo, because he has enough of a following.

1327
01:22:53,843 --> 01:22:55,923
I should have prepared for this question, Daniel.

1328
01:22:57,303 --> 01:22:58,703
So should have I, it turns out.

1329
01:23:01,283 --> 01:23:03,923
Which is, you know, I think that's a reasonable answer.

1330
01:23:03,923 --> 01:23:05,163
my last answer

1331
01:23:05,163 --> 01:23:08,163
because you give it to a large

1332
01:23:08,163 --> 01:23:09,823
node with a lot of followers

1333
01:23:09,823 --> 01:23:12,223
and then they can bring their followers into the fold

1334
01:23:12,223 --> 01:23:14,303
who would I

1335
01:23:14,303 --> 01:23:14,643
give

1336
01:23:14,643 --> 01:23:17,703
the last orange pill to

1337
01:23:17,703 --> 01:23:19,863
that's nothing

1338
01:23:19,889 --> 01:23:30,489
same answer oh dear i can't saying the same thing would be a cop art wouldn't it

1339
01:23:30,489 --> 01:23:38,089
um i think you'd be the first person to do that yeah i'd give it to cristiano ronaldo again

1340
01:23:38,089 --> 01:23:43,389
because the last time i gave him it didn't work he's he's doing some nonsense with binance

1341
01:23:43,389 --> 01:23:51,429
yeah some nft bullshit right yeah yeah i mean the thing is look he's an athlete like what do they

1342
01:23:51,429 --> 01:23:55,909
know right like they they do whatever their agent tells them they barely have the time to

1343
01:23:55,909 --> 01:24:01,789
think about the stuff that we think about um okay i'm stonewalling here

1344
01:24:01,789 --> 01:24:12,529
uh dear god it's got to be someone i'd give it to why my uncle bob

1345
01:24:12,529 --> 01:24:26,329
I guess sure yeah yeah keep it close to home yeah why not close to home yeah why not and you have

1346
01:24:26,329 --> 01:24:35,729
no idea the ripple effects that uncle bob would unleash right indeed all right mate well great

1347
01:24:35,729 --> 01:24:40,149
to have you again take care and look forward to catching up again soon in real life somewhere

1348
01:24:40,149 --> 01:24:46,409
yes will do cheers mate thank you guys for listening i can't believe i didn't think of

1349
01:24:46,409 --> 01:24:52,169
this at the time i was interviewing avi but instead of alice sends x to bob we now have

1350
01:24:52,169 --> 01:25:09,046
to update that meme to avi sends x to bob and that being uh uncle and grokking Bitcoin Thank you for listening As always it 2026 off to a flyer in the Bitcoin space

1351
01:25:09,046 --> 01:25:22,186
If you are reeling at the noise on the socials, try and always remember the underlying ethos

1352
01:25:22,186 --> 01:25:28,346
is stay humble, stack sats, self-custody your Bitcoin, and educate others.

1353
01:25:29,226 --> 01:25:35,326
Keep up today as much as you can with what's going on in the latest debates.

1354
01:25:35,866 --> 01:25:41,906
If it's way over your head, I have 100% empathy with you.

1355
01:25:42,026 --> 01:25:44,466
Everything is moving so, so quickly.

1356
01:25:45,106 --> 01:25:46,786
It's impossible to keep up with.

1357
01:25:46,786 --> 01:25:55,606
I'll do my best to find some voices to bring on the podcast that you might not have heard about

1358
01:25:55,606 --> 01:26:01,886
before and talk about it and dig into these topics give me some time I've got some thoughts

1359
01:26:01,886 --> 01:26:07,766
so that is something to look out for over the next couple of weeks meanwhile I'll keep

1360
01:26:07,766 --> 01:26:14,666
interviewing plebs from all around the world such as Avi who's building who's doing stuff

1361
01:26:14,666 --> 01:26:21,566
connecting people it's incredible to see once you get out there and start meeting

1362
01:26:21,566 --> 01:26:26,606
Bitcoiners in real life it's incredible to see what is going on in people's lives

1363
01:26:26,606 --> 01:26:30,746
and where Bitcoin is leading them what projects they want to start and whether

1364
01:26:30,746 --> 01:26:45,123
or not you get inspired to start something too which hopefully you will because this is in the end how we win just mass adoption and getting in front of real life people is the way to do that

1365
01:26:45,123 --> 01:26:52,103
conferences this year we've got some coming up uh they're getting announced all of the time

1366
01:26:52,103 --> 01:26:56,703
you can follow them on orange pill app which is now club orange by the way uh because they have

1367
01:26:56,703 --> 01:27:01,623
all the events on there there's an events tab so that's the best place to go to keep up with

1368
01:27:01,623 --> 01:27:05,543
with all of your local events, what's coming up, where it's going to be,

1369
01:27:05,703 --> 01:27:10,763
and you can buy tickets directly there as well from your wallet in Sats.

1370
01:27:11,223 --> 01:27:12,703
So it's a one-stop shop.

1371
01:27:12,783 --> 01:27:15,083
You don't have to keep jumping around all of the different places,

1372
01:27:15,223 --> 01:27:15,943
all of the different sites.

1373
01:27:16,363 --> 01:27:22,283
Just flip open Club Orange, formerly Orange Pill App, now Club Orange,

1374
01:27:22,583 --> 01:27:24,983
hit the Events tab and figure something out.

1375
01:27:25,343 --> 01:27:26,183
Find out who's going.

1376
01:27:26,623 --> 01:27:30,963
And the cool thing is as well, as soon as you get to a place,

1377
01:27:30,963 --> 01:27:37,083
a new city, the group chat of that city opens up. So all of the people that are traveling there

1378
01:27:37,083 --> 01:27:42,323
will be in that group chat. But what's cooler is all the people that live there are in that group

1379
01:27:42,323 --> 01:27:47,263
chat and you can just throw a question straight in the chat and you got a response. And you can

1380
01:27:47,263 --> 01:27:55,183
find individuals obviously and go out for coffees, beers, steaks, red wine, whatever it is. So it's

1381
01:27:55,183 --> 01:27:59,443
definitely worth your time and effort to go and check out Club Orange. There is a link in the

1382
01:27:59,443 --> 01:28:05,663
show notes go find us on there there's almost 20 000 bitcoin is the app it has been running now for

1383
01:28:05,663 --> 01:28:20,720
two uh two years four months i believe so coming up on a two and a half year anniversary so congratulations mateo and the rest of the team over there Conferences that where I was

1384
01:28:20,820 --> 01:28:21,780
Sorry, I lost my train of thought.

1385
01:28:22,680 --> 01:28:27,520
In May, there's going to be a conference in Dublin, in Ireland.

1386
01:28:27,700 --> 01:28:28,920
You can hit the link in the show notes.

1387
01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:31,140
Use the code BITTON for a 10% discount.

1388
01:28:31,840 --> 01:28:34,380
In June, we have BTC Prague.

1389
01:28:34,480 --> 01:28:37,080
It's going to be the fourth running of BTC Prague.

1390
01:28:37,080 --> 01:28:45,980
it's one of the most well attended best biggest conferences in europe and prague is a beautiful

1391
01:28:45,980 --> 01:28:52,260
place you know just walking around the old town getting lost in the back streets and just sitting

1392
01:28:52,260 --> 01:28:59,140
down finding a beer and some food sharing that with bitcoiners that's a is a great way to spend

1393
01:28:59,140 --> 01:29:06,560
a weekend so btc prague again use that code bitten get yourself a 10 discount and then btc

1394
01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:14,480
hell in Helsinki is scheduled for September the links are in the show notes go or the orange

1395
01:29:14,480 --> 01:29:20,240
orange pill up formerly formerly orange pill up club orange uh so go get your tickets use the codes

1396
01:29:20,240 --> 01:29:26,900
use the code bitten get your discounts and yeah I look forward to seeing you either one of those

1397
01:29:26,900 --> 01:29:33,540
at some point over the year uh thanks for listening keep boosting and uh streaming on

1398
01:29:33,540 --> 01:29:37,980
Fountain. If you're not listening over on Fountain, switch up your listening habits. Get over there.

1399
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:43,260
It's a Bitcoin enabled app built by Bitcoiners for Bitcoiners. And there are a couple of British

1400
01:29:43,260 --> 01:29:48,760
lads as well. Well done, Nick and Oscar. Thank you everybody for listening. I'll catch you on the next show.