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Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.

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This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can

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around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin

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could mean for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show.

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Thank you so much for listening.

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a nutshell they are an app that you download from the app store whatever app store you are using

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and you start smash buying bitcoin through their services they're a bitcoin only app as i said

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been around since 2020 you can buy bitcoin instantly using various payment methods you can

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send across a bank transfer you can link your credit cards you can link your apple pay your

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google pay it couldn't be easier uh it is a self-custodial wallet so that means that you are

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in control of your bitcoin that's it you can stack up to a thousand swiss or equivalent per day

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they are based out of switzerland they can now operate across all of europe because they have

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the mica license so what is the mica license so it's spelled m-i-c-a and it stands for markets in

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crypto s literally yeah of course it's bureaucratic mouthful markets in crypto assets and it's a

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regulation that's rolled out by the infinite wisdom of the bureaucrats that sit on top of

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their thrones in brussels in the eu and this is what they are forcing now bitcoin companies

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I hate to say the word crypto companies, but there you go.

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This is what you're forced to do now.

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If you want to offer services in the EU around this sector, then you have to get this license.

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And it is long and an arduous task.

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And it is very expensive.

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And we get into all of that with Julian.

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He's here to tell us about their journey because they've been going through it.

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They are not the first, but they're one of the first.

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I believe, to have secured this licensing.

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And it's now unlocked them.

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They can now start advertising.

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So you're going to see them popping up.

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They've been popping up all over Zurich Airport.

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They can start advertising their services.

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They now sponsor one of the biggest ice hockey teams in Switzerland.

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So they're on the jerseys.

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This is really a bit of a game changer for them and for their next couple of years

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as they obviously try and grow their business and try and push Bitcoin adoption across the EU.

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It would be great if one day they could operate in the UK as well.

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But as for now, that's a different set of regulations and they have not gone through that ball ache as of yet.

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Head over to relay.ch forward slash bitten and you can hit the link in the show notes.

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Just download the app and start stacking.

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Now, please check in your own jurisdictions,

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kind of equivalent companies or services to Relay,

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wherever you might be in the world.

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There are Bitcoin-only apps that you can download,

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and there are the option whereby you can take complete self-custody

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of your Bitcoin at the point of purchase as well.

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So that's always a good thing to look out for.

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Swan Bitcoin, for example, are in the US.

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There's a link in the show notes.

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There's a bunch of others around the different jurisdictions.

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So reach out, get to your local meetup,

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Go find your local people.

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Ask your local Bitcoiners.

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Who do we need to use in this jurisdiction?

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Who's the best?

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Who's the worst?

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And yeah, use Club Orange.

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Download Club Orange and start finding out where your nearest Bitcoin meetups are,

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where your nearest plebs are, and go out and get together.

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We just finished today.

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It's a Sunday at the point of release.

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We've been out for a proof of walk with our local Bitcoin group,

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and it was an absolute beaut.

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So thanks to the lads and lasses that joined us today.

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That was a real family affair.

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Long old dog walk with the kids and then a pub lunch afterwards.

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I mean, through the English countryside.

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It was wonderful.

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Talking about Bitcoin and getting to know each other even more.

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So yeah, get out there.

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Use Club Orange.

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Link in the show notes.

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Taking self-custody is very, very serious.

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If you haven't done it, please make sure you do do it.

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get your Christmas list in front of your spouse, partner, boyfriend, girlfriend, I don't know,

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uncle, cousin, doesn't matter. Or just buy one yourself because there's nothing more important

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to do in Bitcoin other than take complete self-custody. You need to be in control of the

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keys. You need to be the only one that can access and move that Bitcoin. So Bitbox is there for you.

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bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten link in the show notes save yourself five percent using that link

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and using the code bitten at checkout please take control finally if you want to start accepting

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bitcoin for your goods and services which you should do paywithflash.com i've got you it's the

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easiest plug and play solution out there today for accepting bitcoin get over to paywithflash.com

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Meanwhile, enjoy this episode with Julian Lineker.

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had to wade through to get this.

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And to my understanding, are you the first considered to be the first Bitcoin only company

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to have secured a Mika license?

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So to be fair, there has been another Bitcoin only company, even in France also, and in

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whole Europe, which is Bitstack.

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Great company.

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Yeah, Alexandre.

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Alexandre is a great guy.

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I caught up with him.

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And, you know, we're all in this together.

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so i'm very happy for every bitcoin only company that's making big next steps and reaching

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milestones like that so they got the mica license a bit before us maybe two three months i think

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before summer and they um they were the first bitcoin only company they are custodial so that's

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their uh kind of the difference towards us so we can say we're the first bitcoin only company that

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is also self-custodial broker and wallet and um and yeah they were i think number three or number

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four in france that got the mica license we were like number six or seven and also we're the first

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in the german speaking area but you know in the end doesn't really matter who's first i hope as

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many bitcoin only companies as possible will get the mica license but i can tell you it's really

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really hard work so props and congrats to bitstacks at bitstack and i'm very happy for

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the relay team to also made it um but it's it's a lot of work i hope many bitcoin only companies

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get it but i'm not sure if all of them will get it because super hard work so for those tuning in

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from outside of europe did you just want to explain like give an overview of what the meka license is

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how it come to be what it stands for and uh and then the processes that you guys had to engage with

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Sure. So MICA stands for Markets in Crypto Assets, and it's a regulatory framework that encompasses all the EU countries.

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So if you're listening from the US and you don't know much about Europe, like continental Europe is basically made of three different zones.

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One is Switzerland, because it's its own different kind of piece.

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That's where I'm from, and that's where Relay has its headquarters and got licensed.

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and then there's the eu which uh consists of like 40 different countries but they're all

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in the same regulatory kind of framework called eu european union and then there's the uk which

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used to be part of the european union but did the brexit so they exited the the eu they now have

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their own set of rules and jurisdiction as well and so why was mica so important for the industry

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and also for us as a company is because now this one license is an overall European license.

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So it allows you to, with one license, to access all these 40 different markets in the EU.

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It's around 400 million people.

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Imagine right before we had only the Swiss license

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and we could cover actively with active customer acquisition,

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the Swiss market with 8 million people.

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and passively we were allowed to onboard if people find out about us onboard also eu people right

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but now with mica this changes basically mica says okay we're unifying the whole regular the

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whole regulatory framework and rules but if you don't get a mica license as a company you cannot

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be active at all not even passively in the eu though if you have one then you can be actively

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pursuing custom requisition and go after this 400 million people market,

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which from a people count is bigger market than the US, right?

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Less money, but more people.

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So it's really, really important for a Bitcoin company,

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if you're operating in the regulated space, to get this license.

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So that's why it's such a big deal for us to finally,

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after two years of hard work to have been accomplished

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and have been approved into this Mika framework.

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Two years, man.

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Two years.

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Two fucking years.

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A lot of work.

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It's like, don't get me started on it.

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It's amazing how much work this was.

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And I'm actually surprised that we got it

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as a relatively small company,

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but still 50 employees, right?

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So there was 50 employees,

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like let's say two-thirds of our resources in the in the last two years went into this

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like a dozen compliance people like internal lawyers compliance operations people of course

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a lot of tech people because we had to build so many implement so many tools build so many

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systems and processes and get iso certification get cyber security audits we had to hire also

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a lot of external people like lawyers and accountants and auditors and we had to work

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very closely with people in the regulators we had to get in the supervisory board we had to get

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advisors that helped us on the on the journey and review our application etc etc it's it's insane

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what we what we had to had to do and it's all things that it doesn't directly add value to the

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company or the users right even even the opposite is actually the case it makes it harder for the

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user to to use our apps because our onboarding processes verification processes had to

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be expanded and more like monitoring systems anti-fraud systems risk scoring two-factor

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authentication etc etc these are all things we had to do that increase the security increase the

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compliance, but doesn't necessarily increase the user experience and satisfaction, right? So

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it was a tough two years for us as a business, but we believe, and we're Bitcoiners, we believe

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in the long term, right? And I think long term, it was a very good decision. And this very hard

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work will pay off big time. I can't imagine the days where the dossier just gets sent back to you

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with all the lines through it and the big stamp that says, not this time, try again.

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Because you never know when you send that all off, right?

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You never know whose desk that's going to hit.

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You're not dealing with the same person or perhaps even the same team every single time

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from what I understand.

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So you might have that jobs worth that gets it on their desk that day and then goes through

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and checks the previous notes of like their colleague.

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and then you've got an internal power struggle going on there.

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And you, of course, as the people seem to be begging them

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for their license,

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the incentive structure of the whole freaking bureaucratic

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nightmare machine that you have to go up against

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is skewed in their favor in every way, shape and form.

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And it almost kind of ironic that they parade themselves as you know the lawmakers or regulators or policymakers whatever you want to call them who are there to ensure that there is an open free market But at the same time they the ones that are actually creating the monopolies by putting these regulations in place because there only

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going to be a few amount of entrepreneurs like yourself that can you know stick to it like two

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years in a long time I mean I can't imagine the amount of times you and Adam must have just been

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sitting there like should we just fucking like what are we doing now there are many times where

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like giving up is not an option at all so that's already good but there's been many times where we

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didn't think about giving up but we thought about well if we ever start a new project it's not going

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to be a regulated financial service provider because it is it is a pain in the ass to be in

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this regulated industry and you're right right these regulators i mean the people we work with

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on a daily basis they don't they mean well you know they just do their jobs it's not their fault

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it's just this whole system that is really skewed and they are gatekeepers whether they want it or

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not they're gatekeepers and you talk about the incentives well the incentives are really

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minimizing risks and and therefore minimizing also innovation they are not incentivized to

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give out a lot of licenses i i predict there will be a hundred maybe max 150 mika licenses in europe

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not more like there are only this year is almost over and they only gave out like 20 or 25 licenses

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so far um we were the sixth license in france germany gave out i think four um the netherlands

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another few um malta cyprus well you know smaller jurisdictions where not sure whether long term

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these these mica licenses will hold um and there are many jurisdictions that didn't give out any

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license yet um like lichtenstein like luxembourg and etc so yeah no they are not incentivized to

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give out a lot of these licenses and therefore innovation will be really hindered because there

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are hundreds of companies that are trying to get these licenses if they don't get them they will

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not be allowed to do business and so a lot of businesses when they are small they will just die

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even though maybe they have a great business case but they will not be allowed to be active on the

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market and you know it takes a lot of resources to check all these applications we we submitted

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more than 10 000 pages oh my goodness of crazy complicated like legal language right it's not a

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novel of 10 000 pages it's not an easy to read thing it's super complicated legal compliance

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language regulatory risk management operations procedures compliance concepts and policies etc

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right more than 10 000 pages so imagine the the amount of workforce they need to check them

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it was a close to 300 appendices next to the main application that they all have to review and check

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and as you said there are red lines coming back all the time some of these appendices

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had more than 10 versions until everything was you know finalized and approved and we did have one

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account manager basically that or supervisor they call him that was responsible for us he was very

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good to be honest he was very responsive and he did a great job right but then the system is just

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the whole institution is so complex behind there's so many committees he has to get this stuff

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approved many different people review they have different perspectives they give different

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feedback and it's such it's a huge long back and forth there are several institutions around the

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AMF that have like one has more in AML KYC and AML perspective the other has more

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a regulatory perspective financial market authority then there's the ESMA which is an overall

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um european institution that also basically uh jumps in this legal departments etc etc so

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it's so complicated and and a lot of a lot of resources on their side as well that are needed

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so imagine how many resources from the companies from these hundreds of european companies that try

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to that prepare these tens of thousands hundreds of millions of pages and then the regulators on

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their side all the resources they need to review all this and this whole back and forth and it's

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very complicated so it's just this system that is of course very inefficient and and not very

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friendly not very welcome to to innovation right and that's uh yeah that's just that's just the

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situation it's not good or bad right it's just the situation on the on a positive note from

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investor perspective it's and you mentioned this before it's a moat right once you get through all

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this pain well you have a moat because there will only be maybe a hundred companies in europe that

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even have this privilege of doing this business right so of course the competition is lower which

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means more business for for us as a company higher revenues higher margins it's just the the game

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we need to play also just to not only from business perspective to make money of course but also to

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pursue our mission and achieve our mission, which is bring as many Bitcoin as possible

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in a self-custodial way to as many people as possible.

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We truly believe that we needed this license.

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We had to do this very hard work to be able to distribute more Bitcoin to more people,

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get more Bitcoin in the hands of the people in a self-custodial way.

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And that's why we did this hard work, because we believed in that a lot.

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Yeah. And hats off to you guys, honestly, hoodies off.

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To stick to it and to, you know, check in with yourself each morning and check that mission, that goal is huge.

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And that does have to be like the bright orange kind of glow that's going to keep like the moth flying towards the moon, you guys flying towards the Mika.

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that feels like an infiltration right like a tried horse we're getting regulated in order to

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distribute uh financial freedom to people like self-custodial bitcoin that in itself then you

231
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could you know it's kind of counter intuitive for it's not regulated it's not the traditional

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financial so we're basically infiltrating the traditional financial system to distribute the

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new Bitcoin financial system in the right way, in a non-custodial way.

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And I believe that's very important also for the resilience of Bitcoin and to give this

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weight, this counterweight to the ever more regulated and restrictive and supervised and

236
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controlled traditional financial system to give people an alternative.

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Because if no one does this, the regulators will just squash all the decentralized exchanges

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and ATMs, et cetera, that actually deliver self-custody.

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So if more and more of these,

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because they don't want to get regulated,

241
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they get pushed more towards a gray or black area

242
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where it's criminalized like the dark net, right?

243
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Then we end up with the traditional financial system

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and the regulators really controlling Bitcoin

245
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because it's very easy to control custodial exchanges and banks.

246
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you know you can just then seize bitcoin you can freeze transactions you can block

247
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stuff it's it's not censorship resistance anymore it's not it's not free global neutral independent

248
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peer-to-peer money anymore right what we thought it what it should be it's then become just a

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just another aspect of the traditional financial system and that's not what we want we want to give

250
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people an alternative in a regulated way it has to be regulated otherwise it cannot scale

251
00:22:12,113 --> 00:22:20,153
to millions of people but it needs to be you know real bitcoin self-custodial with all the benefits

252
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with all the freedom and and that's what we're working on i think this is very important alternative

253
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to give people so they can choose to actually hold their own bitcoin and transact with them

254
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freely. And in order to do that, unfortunately, we need to go to quite a lot of pain through all

255
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this regulation. But I was also impressed, actually, by the positive feedback we got from

256
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the community, the Bitcoin community. You know, we were in Lugano at the biggest Swiss Bitcoin

257
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conference. And just one day before we got the approval from the AMF. So on Friday, I had a talk,

258
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which I switched to this topic, of course, I wanted to talk about another topic, but then I

259
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switched to announcing the meca license and and after the talk i had so many people coming to me

260
00:23:04,933 --> 00:23:13,613
saying hey julian great very happy and congratulated and and supported uh us you know and and and

261
00:23:13,613 --> 00:23:20,013
saluted us so yes thank you for being the pioneer for for being the trailblazer for going through

262
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this hard work so we have an actual now like big significant institution that is regulated and

263
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that is working on what Bitcoiners want the world to look like, right?

264
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Millions of people having a distributed financial network

265
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that is owned by millions and actually owned by millions

266
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and not millions of Bitcoin just being consolidated

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on something like Coinbase,

268
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but really having millions of people owning just some sets, right?

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And so I was surprised, actually, positively surprised.

270
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There were a few trolls and super hardcore Bitcoin maxis that are like, this is not privacy oriented.

271
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This is not, you know, you're licking the ass of the regulators, et cetera.

272
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You know, fair enough.

273
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They're to some degree right.

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But this was really a very small minority, like 1%.

275
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99% of the feedbacks were super positive.

276
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So I'm very hyped and motivated by that.

277
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Yeah, it's great to hear.

278
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And I remember when you had to, if I rewind two years, I think it was, you had to change your or update your KYC and identification methods.

279
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And that's when you kind of got that there was a way for UK Bitcoiners to use Relay for a while.

280
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But then that just got slammed.

281
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That door got slammed shut.

282
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And that was such a big shame.

283
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And then it got, I even remember when we were living in France, it got shut on me in France because I didn't have a French passport.

284
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Even my French visa wasn't good.

285
00:24:55,533 --> 00:25:05,633
Residency visa wasn't good enough as a KYC pass that wouldn't get through like the third party KYC people that you were basically forced to use, right?

286
00:25:05,713 --> 00:25:12,453
From memory, that was another one of those regulatory creep throughout the years has just been crazy.

287
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So, yeah, I remember you taking some heat for that.

288
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so well done to you know keep keep the goal alive and then recently I think it took a little bit of

289
00:25:23,813 --> 00:25:33,133
heat as well for poor old Adam the lightning when lightning yeah we're taking quite we were taking

290
00:25:33,133 --> 00:25:39,893
quite some heat over the years we got used to it and we know how to deal with it now but and it's

291
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good to be honest like we we welcome feedback of all sorts and we like direct feedback it's fine

292
00:25:45,973 --> 00:25:51,913
you know people should speak out their mind we listen to it um you know sometimes maybe a bit

293
00:25:51,913 --> 00:25:56,613
harsh sometimes it's a bit unfair or whatever or they make judgments on very limited information

294
00:25:56,613 --> 00:26:01,033
but they're not to blame they don't have all the information we do have all the information

295
00:26:01,033 --> 00:26:08,573
um and so we we usually really may i think we're an organization that really is truth seeking and

296
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and objective and we very often in hindsight i think we made the right decision the the rational

297
00:26:14,573 --> 00:26:24,033
decision in in this case in the lightning case it was just a business decision you know we we

298
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there were a subgroup of our users a subset of our users the bitcoiners that really wanted

299
00:26:31,773 --> 00:26:36,533
one lightning to succeed and i'm i'm a fan of lightning i think lightning is great right it's

300
00:26:36,533 --> 00:26:43,833
It's amazing technology, makes Bitcoin scalable and valuable as a payment mechanism.

301
00:26:43,833 --> 00:26:44,533
So that's great.

302
00:26:45,133 --> 00:26:48,453
So we wanted to listen to this subgroup of our users.

303
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So that's why we built it.

304
00:26:49,733 --> 00:27:05,513
We partnered with Breeze, who came out with their SDK that made it easy for companies like ours to just implement and offer a Lightning wallet to their users without a lot of effort.

305
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because this is really complicated technology.

306
00:27:07,793 --> 00:27:10,453
So we were glad to outsource this heavy lifting

307
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to a third party like Breeze, great Bitcoin,

308
00:27:13,053 --> 00:27:15,033
Roy, shout out, amazing team.

309
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So we integrated that and then we launched it.

310
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And after a few months, we had to notice that,

311
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A, not many people used it.

312
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It was like 5%, 6% of our user base

313
00:27:31,013 --> 00:27:34,513
that even tried it once.

314
00:27:34,513 --> 00:27:38,513
and how many of them were actually coming back

315
00:27:38,513 --> 00:27:40,073
and using it for the long term.

316
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It really really low like probably 1 users like maybe 1 of our 100 users Then the second problem was and this may be related a bit is that it also didn really

317
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work very well.

318
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For like 50% of all users that tried, they had issues.

319
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So of course, it's clear that not many of them come back.

320
00:28:02,745 --> 00:28:07,325
But I think the most important one is only 5% actually even tried in the first place to

321
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use it.

322
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And we got a lot of feedback from our biggest customer group, which is the beginners, newcomers.

323
00:28:14,925 --> 00:28:15,885
They're like, what is Lightning?

324
00:28:16,385 --> 00:28:18,485
Is this another coin?

325
00:28:18,925 --> 00:28:22,525
Can I now diversify my portfolio to an altcoin?

326
00:28:23,865 --> 00:28:26,705
Can I now buy Bitcoin faster?

327
00:28:27,205 --> 00:28:28,965
So they didn't know it's about payments.

328
00:28:29,085 --> 00:28:30,385
They didn't even know it's about Bitcoin.

329
00:28:30,565 --> 00:28:31,645
I think it's something very...

330
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And so for most people, I would say for 90% of our users, it was actually confusing.

331
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and then for the 10% of the users or 5% of the users

332
00:28:42,405 --> 00:28:45,725
that actually want to use it, it was not a great user experience

333
00:28:45,725 --> 00:28:48,205
because honestly the technology was just not really ready,

334
00:28:49,945 --> 00:28:52,705
and of course it didn't make us any money.

335
00:28:52,965 --> 00:28:55,525
So from a business perspective, it also didn't really make sense.

336
00:28:55,605 --> 00:28:57,005
It didn't bring us more users.

337
00:28:57,005 --> 00:28:59,805
It brought us user frustration and confusion,

338
00:29:00,765 --> 00:29:02,705
and it didn't make us any money.

339
00:29:02,705 --> 00:29:12,865
And from a regulatory perspective, because we went down the Mika path, well, under Mika, lightning is really still a red flag.

340
00:29:13,405 --> 00:29:16,085
It's something that they don't understand at all.

341
00:29:16,205 --> 00:29:22,185
I mean, it's very hard to get them to understand what Bitcoin is and what Bitcoin wallet is, like self-custodial, private keys, etc.

342
00:29:22,285 --> 00:29:24,725
Already that rabbit hole is really hard to make.

343
00:29:24,725 --> 00:29:29,925
we talked about how these institutions work and how complicated they are how many different

344
00:29:29,925 --> 00:29:35,525
committees with people that are 50 60 years old and work for a regulator their whole lives right

345
00:29:35,525 --> 00:29:41,005
to to explain them our business model which is super fucking simple right it's basically

346
00:29:41,005 --> 00:29:47,265
exchanging swiss francs and euros to bitcoin and we don't even hold the bitcoin we don't offer any

347
00:29:47,265 --> 00:29:53,185
other services we don't know for any other cryptocurrencies super fucking simple but even

348
00:29:53,185 --> 00:29:58,765
that to to get them to understand it took us basically two years right so now if you add

349
00:29:58,765 --> 00:30:04,485
something like lightning which is really another technology is super complicated it's on top it's

350
00:30:04,485 --> 00:30:09,845
another network on top of the bitcoin network that they already don't understand and then

351
00:30:09,845 --> 00:30:17,365
it adds complexity on on who's the owner who's the custodian you know because we have a channel

352
00:30:17,365 --> 00:30:22,705
we're on one end of the channel the user is on the other end of the channel there is money in the

353
00:30:22,705 --> 00:30:29,325
channel so are we are we now a custodian right this is the big question and if we are do we need

354
00:30:29,325 --> 00:30:37,345
another license etc etc so to go then through all this pain to explain the regulator what lightning

355
00:30:37,345 --> 00:30:43,245
is and to get it approved by them and the big risk that we would lose maybe half a year in that

356
00:30:43,245 --> 00:30:51,545
process of getting the mica license for for what for five percent of users that kind of use it but

357
00:30:51,545 --> 00:30:55,705
are not really happy with it because the technology is not ready and that make us no money

358
00:30:55,705 --> 00:31:02,065
that didn't make sense from a business perspective so we decided to sunset it and i think i did a

359
00:31:02,065 --> 00:31:09,065
very poor job in communicating it i should probably just let the marketing team do their job

360
00:31:09,065 --> 00:31:14,865
and but i just basically tweeted like this was a two-minute tweet as most of my tweets

361
00:31:14,865 --> 00:31:21,465
um basically i just keep updating people i'm like i like hashtag build in public right so i keep

362
00:31:21,465 --> 00:31:26,945
updating people what we're doing and why but in a tweet there's only a few characters right so i did

363
00:31:26,945 --> 00:31:34,005
basically what i said look we we hear you you wanted lightning we built lightning now no one

364
00:31:34,005 --> 00:31:41,225
really used not many people used it it didn't really work too well and so we had to sunset it

365
00:31:41,225 --> 00:31:46,725
and we now focus on things that have higher impact that's what i wanted to say but i think the tweet

366
00:31:46,725 --> 00:31:49,765
really triggered a lot of lightning enthusiasts,

367
00:31:50,065 --> 00:31:51,605
which I, in hindsight, understand.

368
00:31:51,865 --> 00:31:52,585
And it's okay.

369
00:31:52,765 --> 00:31:53,745
So I took a lot of heat,

370
00:31:53,805 --> 00:31:55,185
or we took a lot of heat from that.

371
00:31:55,685 --> 00:31:58,825
But to be honest, even now, also Breeze,

372
00:31:59,045 --> 00:32:03,445
I saw a tweet that they also sunset this whole SDK for good.

373
00:32:04,585 --> 00:32:08,005
So it just seemed an experiment

374
00:32:08,005 --> 00:32:10,405
that in the end didn't work out from a tech perspective.

375
00:32:10,405 --> 00:32:14,645
They're now working on other approaches with liquid

376
00:32:14,645 --> 00:32:21,745
and also like lightning plus liquid and um i believe spark you know from light spark

377
00:32:21,745 --> 00:32:31,765
so it's other lightning related um uh approaches but but this particular approach that they were

378
00:32:31,765 --> 00:32:35,845
um with the sdk that they were pursuing that we were using it just didn't work enough

379
00:32:35,845 --> 00:32:41,605
well enough so that's and that's fine you know it's it's startup life it's we're building a new

380
00:32:41,605 --> 00:32:47,245
financial infrastructure for the world there is a lot of trial and error some things work some don't

381
00:32:47,245 --> 00:32:53,985
so we basically got back to the roots really focusing on saving instead of payment on bitcoin

382
00:32:53,985 --> 00:33:00,705
on chain instead of lightning and for now right we who knows what's going to come in the future

383
00:33:00,705 --> 00:33:05,385
when we have more demand for for using bitcoin as payments as well and more demand for lightning or

384
00:33:05,385 --> 00:33:11,865
other second third layer solutions we'll be happy to consider again but for now i think it was a

385
00:33:11,865 --> 00:33:19,285
rational business decision to refocus and and sunset lightning but yeah you spent i mean like

386
00:33:19,285 --> 00:33:24,125
listen to the market right you listen to the market both times on the way in and on the way

387
00:33:24,125 --> 00:33:28,865
out on the way in every i remember the tweets like when lightning when lightning when lightning and it

388
00:33:28,865 --> 00:33:34,585
was endless i was probably guilty of it uh and you know i've worked closely with you guys for

389
00:33:34,585 --> 00:33:40,185
almost five years now uh from the very beginning pretty much uh actually that's a good point when

390
00:33:40,185 --> 00:33:48,385
did you reach out i think it was mid late 2020 or was it 2021 by that stage uh when we started

391
00:33:48,385 --> 00:33:54,405
working i think i think you were also you were one of the first uh people that interviewed me when we

392
00:33:54,405 --> 00:34:02,265
launched relay so that was in summer 2020 so it must be end of 2020 that we first yeah so i i mean

393
00:34:02,265 --> 00:34:09,725
i've been there i've seen it i've i've watched watch the journey very very closely and um i think

394
00:34:09,725 --> 00:34:17,585
yeah you're you're right that that tweet was likely misconstrued as you being uh like saying

395
00:34:17,585 --> 00:34:21,606
lightning's broken doesn't work packing up going home like throwing your toys out of the pram

396
00:34:21,606 --> 00:34:28,545
which wasn't the case at all no it's like no we we tried it we listened to our market we listened

397
00:34:28,545 --> 00:34:35,065
to our users we created it and it was a lot of it was a lot of work i remember adam was at his

398
00:34:35,065 --> 00:34:39,305
wits end with that one trying to get that one through yeah and then no one used it and that's

399
00:34:39,305 --> 00:34:46,685
just such a shame uh but and then like to to get the meeker as well what's more important like

400
00:34:46,685 --> 00:34:52,305
you know have it keeping a feature there that is a little bit glitchy at the best of times and only

401
00:34:52,305 --> 00:34:56,645
five percent of people are using it or just getting rid of it and focusing on getting that

402
00:34:56,645 --> 00:35:01,945
that regulatory stuff which is interesting interesting listening to you talking about

403
00:35:01,945 --> 00:35:09,805
like the guy that was looking after your case there man ai has to rip through this stuff pretty

404
00:35:09,805 --> 00:35:15,725
oh yeah i mean think of a career risk on that guy's shoulders right now like he's he's looking

405
00:35:15,725 --> 00:35:23,705
at ai bearing down at him and not only that left and right he's got his colleagues he's got his

406
00:35:23,705 --> 00:35:28,365
people above him he's got the people that he's supposed to be like you know ushering through

407
00:35:28,365 --> 00:35:36,545
this system i.e you guys and yeah i don't envy that position and uh it is hard to get angry at

408
00:35:36,545 --> 00:35:42,425
these people these bureaucrats but at the same time to your point they're just people are trying

409
00:35:42,425 --> 00:35:50,365
to i'm sure he didn't grow up like uh one day i'm gonna be that's what's you'd be surprised some

410
00:35:50,365 --> 00:35:56,845
people really like compliance we hired we hired 10-12 compliance people and i asked them the same

411
00:35:56,845 --> 00:36:02,005
question like do you like your job they're like yeah they're super enthusiastic about it so they're

412
00:36:02,005 --> 00:36:08,185
just different kinds of people um and to the ai point of course ai could already now do half of

413
00:36:08,185 --> 00:36:14,585
their jobs or more but they have also regulations on that one right they they have restrictions i

414
00:36:14,585 --> 00:36:20,285
I mean, I don't think the regulators are like power users.

415
00:36:20,885 --> 00:36:24,845
I think it's probably even very restricted,

416
00:36:25,146 --> 00:36:29,425
if not forbidden for them to even use AI

417
00:36:29,425 --> 00:36:31,606
because of data and privacy.

418
00:36:31,606 --> 00:36:32,005
Wow.

419
00:36:33,445 --> 00:36:34,005
Data.

420
00:36:34,965 --> 00:36:38,606
So the system truly will not move forward any...

421
00:36:39,205 --> 00:36:43,205
I was hoping perhaps efficiency will gain

422
00:36:43,205 --> 00:36:48,205
over the next 18 months to two years and we can get more companies with the maker and you know

423
00:36:48,205 --> 00:36:53,425
spread this out you know competition rather excuse me collaboration rather than competition

424
00:36:53,425 --> 00:36:58,765
in the bitcoin space but i it doesn't sound as though you hold out too much hope it's i'm not

425
00:36:58,765 --> 00:37:04,925
very bullish on that i think it's still a lot of manual work there and i at one point yes but i

426
00:37:04,925 --> 00:37:10,285
don't think the next 18 to 24 months i'd rather be in the five to 10 years time frame there it's

427
00:37:10,285 --> 00:37:13,745
Like they move very slow in terms of innovating also their process.

428
00:37:13,965 --> 00:37:17,765
And because it's so much manual work, that's money.

429
00:37:17,885 --> 00:37:19,626
Money. Yes, that's a point. We've not talked about that.

430
00:37:19,685 --> 00:37:34,106
How much money is it like to even consider if you're a young entrepreneur in this space and you want to start like a financial app where people can buy Bitcoin and you want to go do it properly and get registered and blah, blah, blah.

431
00:37:34,106 --> 00:37:36,646
I mean, what kind of money are we looking at here?

432
00:37:36,646 --> 00:37:38,705
I mean, we've got two years straight away.

433
00:37:40,005 --> 00:37:41,225
Yeah, that's another thing.

434
00:37:41,305 --> 00:37:43,505
But if you start now, it's crazy.

435
00:37:43,705 --> 00:37:51,305
If you started five years ago, as we did, especially in Switzerland, where we could still do the non-KOC stuff, it was really easy for us to get off the ground.

436
00:37:51,865 --> 00:38:00,705
Now, if you want to start, like I said in my talk, I think if you don't have 10 million, probably don't even start.

437
00:38:01,106 --> 00:38:01,445
What?

438
00:38:01,445 --> 00:38:09,845
because of course it doesn't cost you 10 million but it took us two years we are 50 people in the

439
00:38:09,845 --> 00:38:16,345
company and two-thirds of them worked for this so it's a lot of compliance operations and tech

440
00:38:16,345 --> 00:38:22,925
people that need to have high salaries that you need to pay for two years so i reckon we we paid

441
00:38:22,925 --> 00:38:29,385
around one million in total and the smallest cost is the regulators but then the externals that you

442
00:38:29,385 --> 00:38:35,565
need all the lawyers all the accountants all the auditors the cyber security audits the iso

443
00:38:35,565 --> 00:38:40,665
certification all this kind of stuff that you need to do without all the advisors the supervisory

444
00:38:40,665 --> 00:38:45,765
board you need to put in place that's a big cost and then the internal costs are huge um because

445
00:38:45,765 --> 00:38:50,606
you need all these employees yes you need substance right if you're a three four people company you

446
00:38:50,606 --> 00:38:57,065
won't get this license you need i don't know at least 20 people if not if not more we're now 50

447
00:38:57,065 --> 00:39:04,885
and so this is this is a lot of cost plus then you need that there's capital requirements so

448
00:39:04,885 --> 00:39:09,485
they won't give a license if you have a runway of three months right you need a runway of three

449
00:39:09,485 --> 00:39:15,765
years so you need to show them you have a lot of money on in the bank account and then you need

450
00:39:15,765 --> 00:39:22,925
operational capital so if if you have 10 million on the bank account you need probably 5 million

451
00:39:22,925 --> 00:39:28,745
just for the operations or six depending on you want to grow so they will see okay if you grow

452
00:39:28,745 --> 00:39:35,325
your volume you will need more operation capital and still so with the rest of the few million you

453
00:39:35,325 --> 00:39:40,905
have one million goes away as cost for getting the license and then you have a very few millions

454
00:39:40,905 --> 00:39:47,985
that need to secure your three-year runway right so you need you need a lot of money and a lot of

455
00:39:47,985 --> 00:39:55,465
effort and on the regulator side another reason for the limitation is because we said it's a lot

456
00:39:55,465 --> 00:40:02,025
of resources a lot of manual work is a lot of money that are spent from them to approve licenses

457
00:40:02,025 --> 00:40:07,945
and to maintain the licenses because they also audit there are auditors private auditors that

458
00:40:07,945 --> 00:40:12,106
we need like audits that we need to go through every year so they check on us but also the

459
00:40:12,106 --> 00:40:20,405
the regulators directly check on the companies so they also audit the companies means the more

460
00:40:20,405 --> 00:40:25,345
companies they approve the more licenses they give out the more work they have again on

461
00:40:25,345 --> 00:40:30,985
like recurring work on checking on them now in france for example and this is a problem with all

462
00:40:30,985 --> 00:40:35,985
the eu governments and i would argue with most of the governments they have budget problems they have

463
00:40:35,985 --> 00:40:43,705
huge budget problems in the u.s there's a shutdown now for i think 37 days already in france as well

464
00:40:43,705 --> 00:40:49,865
i think for two three weeks in france they have a shutdown so they they have a dysfunctional

465
00:40:49,865 --> 00:40:57,126
or not functioning government they don't have any budget they cannot basically approve new budget

466
00:40:57,126 --> 00:41:04,525
so yes the amf might need another five or ten employees to you know do all this work with the

467
00:41:04,525 --> 00:41:07,905
licenses, but they don't get, they can't hire any more employees.

468
00:41:08,025 --> 00:41:09,465
They don't get new budget from the government.

469
00:41:10,385 --> 00:41:12,585
And all the governments are super indebted.

470
00:41:13,405 --> 00:41:16,945
And, you know, no one really wants to work also for the government anymore.

471
00:41:17,025 --> 00:41:20,146
The talented people want to work in the private sector where they can make money.

472
00:41:21,065 --> 00:41:24,025
And so, yeah, it's very limited.

473
00:41:25,045 --> 00:41:28,665
Again, to my point earlier that I don't think there will be a lot of licenses.

474
00:41:28,665 --> 00:41:31,585
It's just the incentive systems and the structure.

475
00:41:31,905 --> 00:41:33,606
It's just not suggesting it.

476
00:41:34,525 --> 00:41:46,378
And yes it a lot of effort from both the company you need a few millions to even get started And from the governments they need a lot of budget

477
00:41:46,558 --> 00:41:49,218
which they don't have the budget they need.

478
00:41:50,098 --> 00:41:53,078
And what's the investment landscape out there at the moment?

479
00:41:53,218 --> 00:41:55,738
We've had lots of discussions about this over the years

480
00:41:55,738 --> 00:42:00,698
because it used to be the case that if you're going to start a crypto company,

481
00:42:00,698 --> 00:42:02,058
you'd get money thrown at you.

482
00:42:02,058 --> 00:42:08,458
and you were very careful over at Relay with the people that you decided to engage with and accept

483
00:42:08,458 --> 00:42:15,298
investment from. EgoDeath being one of those great companies that helped you guys out and

484
00:42:15,298 --> 00:42:24,278
led around or two. You obviously had your angels from way back in the day. Kudos to those for

485
00:42:24,278 --> 00:42:31,338
helping you get off the ground. But what's that landscape like today? What's going on in the

486
00:42:31,338 --> 00:42:37,278
Bitcoin, first of all, the Bitcoin investment, Bitcoin only investment landscape, and then like

487
00:42:37,278 --> 00:42:42,698
the kind of wider crypto? What are the conversations happening? What have you heard? And what do you

488
00:42:42,698 --> 00:42:50,378
see? So there are good news, I think, on that front. I mean, there's a lot of Bitcoin only VCs

489
00:42:50,378 --> 00:42:57,518
now. When we started five years ago, there was almost, there were very few small Bitcoin focused

490
00:42:57,518 --> 00:43:05,918
vc companies like maybe still mark was around maybe um uh this other company i now forgot there

491
00:43:05,918 --> 00:43:13,378
were two three not many um around back in those days maybe fulgur was around already yes and i

492
00:43:13,378 --> 00:43:19,798
was looking for the other us one you know where i think marty bent is now involved oh 1031 yeah 1031

493
00:43:19,798 --> 00:43:27,298
and there's even another yeah maybe a handful right um now they're they're many and they're

494
00:43:27,298 --> 00:43:32,618
big ones like ego death capital just just closed their second fund which was a hundred million fund

495
00:43:32,618 --> 00:43:40,518
so now these bitcoin vcs they cannot only support small companies with 100k or 200k check

496
00:43:40,518 --> 00:43:47,838
but they can actually lead a 12 million series a as in our case end of last year um and that's

497
00:43:47,838 --> 00:43:52,978
that's amazing so there's more money around for bitcoin only companies because they're also

498
00:43:52,978 --> 00:43:59,278
the bitcoin price of course increased more bitcoiners got more wealthy and they invest also

499
00:43:59,278 --> 00:44:06,758
part of their new wealth into bitcoin vcs and there are also companies that are super super

500
00:44:06,758 --> 00:44:13,838
profitable like you know tether for example i think they invested i had paulo arduino in our

501
00:44:13,838 --> 00:44:19,898
relay bitcoin podcast end of last year and they i think they said i mean they make more than a

502
00:44:19,898 --> 00:44:26,858
billion in profit a month right so i think this year they will make like 15 billion in in not

503
00:44:26,858 --> 00:44:33,658
revenue in profit it's insane and so where does this money go they invested in bitcoin directly

504
00:44:33,658 --> 00:44:41,578
in gold in um also bitcoin mining and they invested i think last year they invested around

505
00:44:41,578 --> 00:44:48,618
a billion in bitcoin startups through different venture funds but also directly so there is much

506
00:44:48,618 --> 00:44:54,858
more money that venture capital money that flows into the bitcoin startup ecosystem i think that's

507
00:44:55,498 --> 00:45:01,898
that's great news on the crypto front there's still a lot going on for me for me is insane um

508
00:45:01,898 --> 00:45:09,418
but yeah i i don't understand it but there's still like andrezen horowitz and and the likes

509
00:45:10,058 --> 00:45:14,938
that are pumping also billions into into altcoin projects and new

510
00:45:14,938 --> 00:45:24,938
new blockchains, new altcoins that none of them really are doing anything meaningful in my opinion.

511
00:45:24,938 --> 00:45:33,578
But they attract still a lot of venture capital because there are some that really do very well.

512
00:45:34,498 --> 00:45:39,258
Binance coin, for example, has gone through the roof.

513
00:45:39,958 --> 00:45:40,378
It's crazy.

514
00:45:40,378 --> 00:45:49,358
solana went from when end of 22 ftx collapsed and it was basically in the ftx coin right it went from

515
00:45:49,358 --> 00:45:55,798
200 bucks to what 10 bucks or something and now it's back to i don't even know but hundreds again

516
00:45:55,798 --> 00:46:02,118
new ultima 3 400 must be i don't know i don't follow that closely but there is a lot of money

517
00:46:02,118 --> 00:46:05,238
to be made with these speculative trades.

518
00:46:05,758 --> 00:46:09,798
And VCs, of course, like short-term high gains.

519
00:46:10,878 --> 00:46:13,078
So there's still a lot of crypto VCs,

520
00:46:13,458 --> 00:46:15,818
but we don't really engage with them,

521
00:46:16,038 --> 00:46:19,218
especially now that we have built our capital base

522
00:46:19,218 --> 00:46:21,598
with more than 50 investors,

523
00:46:22,058 --> 00:46:23,858
around seven or eight VCs

524
00:46:23,858 --> 00:46:28,118
that are all very much on this Bitcoin-only narrative, right?

525
00:46:28,238 --> 00:46:29,598
We have a very good network

526
00:46:29,598 --> 00:46:31,578
where whenever we need more money,

527
00:46:31,578 --> 00:46:32,618
At the moment, we don't.

528
00:46:33,698 --> 00:46:38,018
But whenever we will need more money, we will be able, with our current network,

529
00:46:38,658 --> 00:46:44,638
to raise it from great long-term thinking, Bitcoin-focused investors.

530
00:46:44,638 --> 00:46:50,898
That's why we don't have to engage anymore, really, with VCs that are into crypto

531
00:46:50,898 --> 00:46:54,418
or that haven't understood, that are generalistic VCs,

532
00:46:54,558 --> 00:46:57,398
general VCs that haven't really understood Bitcoin.

533
00:46:57,818 --> 00:46:59,538
So that's the fortunate position.

534
00:46:59,538 --> 00:47:00,938
we are in.

535
00:47:00,938 --> 00:47:03,358
And I think the great news is

536
00:47:03,358 --> 00:47:07,878
there's just much more Bitcoin-focused VC money out there.

537
00:47:07,978 --> 00:47:10,598
So even if you're starting a Bitcoin company right now,

538
00:47:10,778 --> 00:47:13,278
there's so many more options than five years ago,

539
00:47:13,318 --> 00:47:13,818
which is great.

540
00:47:14,158 --> 00:47:17,838
And that's also why a lot of great things are being built

541
00:47:17,838 --> 00:47:20,038
in Bitcoin and around Bitcoin.

542
00:47:20,818 --> 00:47:24,398
And you started stacking Bitcoin onto the balance sheet.

543
00:47:24,718 --> 00:47:26,118
I can't remember exactly when,

544
00:47:26,178 --> 00:47:28,178
at least 18 months ago, maybe two years,

545
00:47:28,178 --> 00:47:38,718
I remember seeing those tweets and that was taking profit off the table each month or perhaps after an investment round, you take X amount of percentage of that investment and put that into Bitcoin.

546
00:47:39,638 --> 00:47:44,258
So, yeah, what's the update on that? Because to me, that's a Bitcoin treasury company like that.

547
00:47:44,258 --> 00:47:48,298
that you have an existing business, a five-year track record,

548
00:47:48,418 --> 00:47:52,518
and you're taking profit, you're skimming profit to stack Bitcoin,

549
00:47:52,778 --> 00:47:56,558
to protect your future, to lengthen your runway,

550
00:47:56,838 --> 00:47:59,418
to use the parlance of the venture capitalists.

551
00:48:00,558 --> 00:48:03,258
Yeah, where are you at with that at the moment?

552
00:48:03,938 --> 00:48:08,998
Yeah, we try to stack Sats as much as we can.

553
00:48:10,398 --> 00:48:13,978
We have different pockets of capital.

554
00:48:14,258 --> 00:48:20,318
But like any company, the long term capital reserve, I think, should mostly be in Bitcoin.

555
00:48:20,778 --> 00:48:30,258
If you don't need your money as a company for a few years, that's also what we explain to our relay business clients, for example.

556
00:48:30,258 --> 00:48:37,818
We have hundreds of businesses, mostly SMEs in Europe, that have now started to become a treasury company.

557
00:48:37,938 --> 00:48:43,098
Not in the sense of the crazy way how Michael Saylor is doing it, but just as you said, just sacks at.

558
00:48:43,098 --> 00:48:50,158
because if you have money that you don't use the next two three four five years doesn't make sense

559
00:48:50,158 --> 00:48:57,918
to hold it in euro because the euro loses value every every year right it makes sense to use euro

560
00:48:57,918 --> 00:49:03,558
for spending from today and tomorrow from today to tomorrow it's it's it's pretty stable but then

561
00:49:03,558 --> 00:49:08,638
if you want to hold and preserve your value for an investment you want to make maybe in five years

562
00:49:08,638 --> 00:49:14,938
it doesn't make sense because you will lose in the double digits of percentage in purchasing power,

563
00:49:15,138 --> 00:49:18,678
while if you hold it in Bitcoin, you will win more purchasing power, right?

564
00:49:19,558 --> 00:49:26,358
And on average, around 50 to 60% a year, especially if you have a long-term view.

565
00:49:26,998 --> 00:49:30,238
So that's what we explain to companies and we also do it ourselves.

566
00:49:30,398 --> 00:49:33,778
The money we don't immediately use, we put in Bitcoin.

567
00:49:34,418 --> 00:49:36,698
And then we have also different buckets of capital.

568
00:49:36,698 --> 00:49:41,258
We need a lot of operational capital, which part of it is Bitcoin.

569
00:49:41,738 --> 00:49:47,378
This is also on our balance sheet, but not in the treasury for the long-term capital reserve.

570
00:49:47,498 --> 00:49:49,658
But actually, it's moving every day.

571
00:49:50,218 --> 00:49:52,058
Bitcoin, euro, and Swiss francs.

572
00:49:52,138 --> 00:49:53,658
So we basically have these three buckets.

573
00:49:53,818 --> 00:50:00,298
We, of course, need to make sure we're also well financed in fiat terms.

574
00:50:00,778 --> 00:50:03,418
Because we have bills to pay.

575
00:50:03,418 --> 00:50:08,858
we are profitable in some months not profitable in others so we're not a super profitable company

576
00:50:08,858 --> 00:50:14,198
like tether uh yet where where we don't know where to go with the money we do have to be

577
00:50:14,198 --> 00:50:22,678
in a good balance of um what amount of fiat we need for short-term operational capital and for

578
00:50:22,678 --> 00:50:29,318
for paying salaries and taxes and bills etc but also of course we're very we're a bitcoin company

579
00:50:29,318 --> 00:50:36,678
And the goal of every company, if you think in a Bitcoin standard world, is Bitcoin is capital.

580
00:50:36,898 --> 00:50:46,378
And so the goal for every company is to accumulate as much capital as you want, because it will increase your market capitalization, your valuation.

581
00:50:47,298 --> 00:50:50,718
And it will help you to make better investments in the future.

582
00:50:51,538 --> 00:50:55,918
So, of course, we have a pretty good stack at the moment.

583
00:50:56,298 --> 00:50:57,358
I'm quite happy.

584
00:50:57,358 --> 00:51:10,738
We made some good decisions in hindsight of whenever we had profitable months, put some into Bitcoin, not selling Bitcoin almost ever.

585
00:51:11,638 --> 00:51:20,578
And buying Bitcoin also when, for example, we had the funding round, we put some significant amount into Bitcoin, the money that we didn't use like tomorrow.

586
00:51:21,118 --> 00:51:23,838
And so these turned out to be very good long term decisions.

587
00:51:24,678 --> 00:51:25,538
Excellent, Mike.

588
00:51:25,538 --> 00:51:35,438
You mentioned SMEs, and I think this is probably the best time to talk about Relay Private and the work you guys have done with the SMEs over there.

589
00:51:35,918 --> 00:51:39,398
Small to medium-sized enterprises, for those that might not know their acronym.

590
00:51:40,158 --> 00:51:44,498
How many businesses have you managed to help start Stack and Sats?

591
00:51:45,278 --> 00:51:46,098
Not enough.

592
00:51:47,218 --> 00:51:48,318
That is the right answer.

593
00:51:48,318 --> 00:51:58,198
it's really a few so small step for for for us big step for the industry no big step for us

594
00:51:58,198 --> 00:52:03,078
small set for the industry let's say because maybe we're at i don't know the exact number

595
00:52:03,078 --> 00:52:09,958
three four hundred companies that we have onboarded mostly smes that are founder led so

596
00:52:09,958 --> 00:52:16,998
typically they have between 10 and 100 employees they have two to three decision makers or beneficial

597
00:52:16,998 --> 00:52:23,978
owners that can decide to put, you know, where to put the money to invest into Bitcoin.

598
00:52:24,498 --> 00:52:28,038
And they're of all sorts of industries, which are super interesting, right?

599
00:52:28,038 --> 00:52:37,058
Some of them are carpenters, dentists, you know, building and construction and IT consultants,

600
00:52:37,578 --> 00:52:38,318
real estate.

601
00:52:38,758 --> 00:52:45,098
We even have a gold trading company that invests into Bitcoin in the digital gold every month,

602
00:52:45,178 --> 00:52:45,878
which is great.

603
00:52:45,878 --> 00:52:55,298
And we just recently had, I don't know which industry this was, some company that started a 50 bucks monthly savings plan with us.

604
00:52:55,758 --> 00:53:10,738
We now really streamlined all the processes so that any company that wants to start, I mean, any SME, let's say, not publicly traded companies, not like super complicated constructs, corporations,

605
00:53:10,738 --> 00:53:26,578
But like SME in Europe can onboard within 48 hours with us and they can start with 50 bucks a month, set up a savings plan and put some of their profits, some of their revenue, some of their long term capital into Bitcoin.

606
00:53:27,078 --> 00:53:30,018
So this is really interesting to see on the small scale.

607
00:53:30,218 --> 00:53:32,998
Like that's why I say it's a big step for us as a company.

608
00:53:32,998 --> 00:53:39,998
This is maybe a very small step for the industry, because you know how many SMEs there are in Europe?

609
00:53:39,998 --> 00:53:50,078
no 25 million wow so even if every company in europe wanted to buy just one bitcoin

610
00:53:50,078 --> 00:53:57,078
there's not enough by far not enough to buy one bitcoin per company and that's only in europe

611
00:53:57,078 --> 00:54:07,678
not talking about asia the americas etc so it's insane the scarcity and in in europe maybe there

612
00:54:07,678 --> 00:54:15,118
a few thousand now i would say maybe fair to say two and a half thousand um so that would be what

613
00:54:15,118 --> 00:54:20,878
not even one percent zero point one zero point one percent of the companies have bitcoin on their

614
00:54:20,878 --> 00:54:27,778
balance sheet in europe it's insane like the the potential is just insane and the numbers are

615
00:54:27,778 --> 00:54:33,918
staggering if you think about what's going to happen if even one or five or ten percent of

616
00:54:33,918 --> 00:54:37,658
these companies find out that's actually a very good idea to put some bitcoin on the balance sheet

617
00:54:37,658 --> 00:54:43,918
many of them have millions as we have some companies that buy 10 bitcoin at once right

618
00:54:43,918 --> 00:54:50,078
once they have understood so yeah this is really really interesting relay business and relay private

619
00:54:50,078 --> 00:54:56,978
relay business we're looking after these SMEs and also we now will be able with Mika we'll be able

620
00:54:56,978 --> 00:55:03,358
to start onboarding holding companies and like bigger companies more more complex constructs

621
00:55:03,358 --> 00:55:11,318
also like foundations treasury trusts and you know stuff like that um but also on the private side

622
00:55:11,318 --> 00:55:19,778
we have high net worth individuals that start to understand that in part of their portfolio part of

623
00:55:19,778 --> 00:55:26,218
the the wealth they hold with their family office for example they should probably start allocating

624
00:55:26,218 --> 00:55:32,538
to bitcoin and they start buying one bitcoin for 100k and then maybe they all of a sudden they

625
00:55:32,538 --> 00:55:32,658
Thank you.

626
00:55:33,251 --> 00:55:35,051
buy 50 Bitcoin for 5 million.

627
00:55:35,571 --> 00:55:38,511
So we have these kind of trades that are now starting to happen.

628
00:55:38,511 --> 00:55:41,431
We start to onboard these very, very wealthy clients

629
00:55:41,431 --> 00:55:45,791
that decide to take the BlackRock recommendation

630
00:55:45,791 --> 00:55:48,171
and put 2% of their portfolio into Bitcoin.

631
00:55:48,531 --> 00:55:51,051
Some of them then start really liking it.

632
00:55:51,511 --> 00:55:55,731
We have this guy that has a Ferrari dealership

633
00:55:55,731 --> 00:55:59,631
and starts to put some of the profits.

634
00:55:59,791 --> 00:56:00,891
They're in huge margins.

635
00:56:00,891 --> 00:56:07,591
this guy is a very very profitable business starts to put pretty big amounts of that into into bitcoin

636
00:56:07,591 --> 00:56:16,211
on the regular basis we have people then that start again with few bitcoin and then they sell

637
00:56:16,211 --> 00:56:21,431
a business for 10 million and they put half of it half of that into bitcoin because they really

638
00:56:21,431 --> 00:56:26,991
start understanding it more and more and what it can do for them long term so relay private and

639
00:56:26,991 --> 00:56:32,031
really a business kind of we're at a point where we have hundreds of these clients they also have

640
00:56:32,031 --> 00:56:39,831
a network right of of like-minded and and similarly wealthy people and companies so we were starting

641
00:56:39,831 --> 00:56:44,771
to see this network effect there where we get more and more of these very interesting people

642
00:56:44,771 --> 00:56:52,971
and companies as clients and but it's still amazingly early like gradually then suddenly

643
00:56:52,971 --> 00:57:00,671
yeah yeah but we're far away step over suddenly in my opinion oh yeah it's yeah it's not very

644
00:57:00,671 --> 00:57:06,871
much in the gradually bucket of that but it's very interesting what you said about that amount of smes

645
00:57:06,871 --> 00:57:12,491
in in europe that's that's staggering that's really very interesting and and the ones you

646
00:57:12,491 --> 00:57:21,271
guys are already servicing uh it won't be long until they realize the the power of accepting

647
00:57:21,271 --> 00:57:23,251
Bitcoin as a medium

648
00:57:23,251 --> 00:57:24,391
exchange as well, right?

649
00:57:24,631 --> 00:57:27,491
This is going to push that narrative

650
00:57:27,491 --> 00:57:31,331
a narrative we need to push as hard

651
00:57:31,331 --> 00:57:33,271
as we can for Bitcoin to become

652
00:57:33,271 --> 00:57:34,731
a medium exchange and for these

653
00:57:34,731 --> 00:57:36,911
SMEs to start accepting Bitcoin

654
00:57:36,911 --> 00:57:38,211
for their goods and services

655
00:57:38,211 --> 00:57:40,751
I think I tweeted recently

656
00:57:40,751 --> 00:57:43,211
you should not accept Bitcoin for your goods

657
00:57:43,211 --> 00:57:44,751
and services, you should demand it

658
00:57:44,751 --> 00:57:47,211
and when people start grokking that

659
00:57:47,211 --> 00:57:48,511
that's

660
00:57:48,511 --> 00:57:51,251
when we're just going to see this huge shift

661
00:57:51,251 --> 00:58:01,271
um but yeah like you say what do you say 0.01 so far yeah we got some wood to chop so that's down

662
00:58:01,271 --> 00:58:06,791
to the plebs listening keep asking at your bars restaurants cafes hairdressers mechanics you know

663
00:58:06,791 --> 00:58:14,491
window cleaner do you accept bitcoin like that it's it's on us to to it's still a grassroots

664
00:58:14,491 --> 00:58:23,691
movement? So I just calculated this. If we assume 2,500 SMEs in Europe on Bitcoin, which I think

665
00:58:23,691 --> 00:58:30,491
it's maybe fair to say, if we have maybe 250, 300 companies, so we would have a market share of 1%,

666
00:58:31,371 --> 00:58:40,411
10%. Yeah, maybe it's 25,000. What do you think? Is it 2,500 or 25,000 rather? It's really hard

667
00:58:40,411 --> 00:58:50,891
to say if it's two and a half thousand there would be 0.01 percent of the companies in europe

668
00:58:50,891 --> 00:58:57,131
that own bitcoin even if we're rather this is probably the converse uh the conservative

669
00:58:57,131 --> 00:59:04,571
scenario if we go for the bullish scenario that already 25 000 smes in europe hold bitcoin still

670
00:59:04,571 --> 00:59:12,811
only 0.1 percent so it's insane and in the on the individual side it's around 10 percent

671
00:59:12,811 --> 00:59:18,731
so the individuals already kind of got it but of course companies are slower and and and

672
00:59:18,731 --> 00:59:25,891
different in their decision making so it takes longer for them but like in 10 years fair to say

673
00:59:25,891 --> 00:59:30,631
that at least one percent if not five or ten percent of the european smes will have bitcoin

674
00:59:30,631 --> 00:59:38,011
on their balance sheet imagine this inflow of capital is insane i wonder how much because i

675
00:59:38,011 --> 00:59:43,531
think they're rolling out in the us at the moment square right with their payments terminals yeah

676
00:59:43,531 --> 00:59:51,151
that's great when that rolls out globally or hits europe uh whether you will see an uptick

677
00:59:51,151 --> 00:59:59,691
with the uh interest on on the relay business that'll be very interesting to see because all

678
00:59:59,691 --> 01:00:04,571
of a sudden if they're accepting bitcoin at the terminals the pill has been planted directly

679
01:00:04,571 --> 01:00:11,731
on their countertop and bitcoiners are coming in and they're spending uh yeah it's going to be very

680
01:00:11,731 --> 01:00:17,471
interesting to see it's going to be look future's always bright the future's orange uh and you can

681
01:00:17,471 --> 01:00:22,751
never tell you can never tell which path we're going to take but uh yeah lots of it's just great

682
01:00:22,751 --> 01:00:27,651
to see that you know you guys are building you've got your license and you can uh keep up the

683
01:00:27,651 --> 01:00:36,011
engagement and now you've got 400 million users to potentially serve how do you and now you can

684
01:00:36,011 --> 01:00:44,831
actively market yeah uh so is that where a big amount of focus is gonna and obviously budget

685
01:00:44,831 --> 01:00:51,151
is going to rest for the next uh year to two years yes we're really excited now to finally

686
01:00:51,151 --> 01:00:59,311
stop allocating so much into so much resources into regulatory licensing legal compliance etc

687
01:00:59,311 --> 01:01:09,051
more towards product and growth so product in the sense that we will now be much faster in

688
01:01:09,051 --> 01:01:16,671
delivering new features that users demand in improving the existing product make it more

689
01:01:16,671 --> 01:01:23,251
scalable more performant more reliant just better more exciting to use for for people and then the

690
01:01:23,251 --> 01:01:29,471
growth part is we can finally really talk about everything we're doing because in in european

691
01:01:29,471 --> 01:01:35,931
countries in eu countries outside of switzerland we were not able to even talk about a referral

692
01:01:35,931 --> 01:01:43,391
program we were not able to talk about relay business relay private um all the features that

693
01:01:43,391 --> 01:01:50,951
we we offer um and and we were not able to work with great content creators like you like with

694
01:01:50,951 --> 01:02:00,131
podcasters youtubers bloggers whatever right um we we will be now able to partner with all these

695
01:02:00,131 --> 01:02:06,951
with also media traditional media and again influencers uh which which are a big part of

696
01:02:06,951 --> 01:02:12,451
where people learn about bitcoin um we will be able to sponsor events we will be able to sponsor

697
01:02:12,451 --> 01:02:19,191
sports clubs as we do in in switzerland already we can now do this all of these things in in the

698
01:02:19,191 --> 01:02:27,691
most important eu markets and more than 80 of our users are in eu markets organically and this year

699
01:02:27,691 --> 01:02:33,111
we will like handcuffed we were not able to talk about anything but still we're getting like 80 of

700
01:02:33,111 --> 01:02:39,851
our new users also are coming from eu countries so now that we actually start actively promoting

701
01:02:39,851 --> 01:02:48,071
Bitcoin and in a second step relay, I think we'll be able to onboard hundreds of thousands

702
01:02:48,071 --> 01:02:54,171
of people to Bitcoin in the next year, which is really exciting.

703
01:02:54,311 --> 01:02:55,251
We're looking forward to that.

704
01:02:55,251 --> 01:03:02,831
So now basically handcuffs are off and we can, A, we now have this market available for

705
01:03:02,831 --> 01:03:03,611
us, which is great.

706
01:03:03,611 --> 01:03:20,411
But B also, even more significantly, I think, and more importantly, is we can now allocate a lot of our resources to actually create value with, you know, improving the product and promoting Bitcoin more.

707
01:03:21,131 --> 01:03:24,431
So, for example, have you seen our videos lately, the relay films?

708
01:03:25,051 --> 01:03:32,091
I actually had missed it, but I went for a walk this morning with my wife and she was telling me, you've got to see the relay.

709
01:03:32,091 --> 01:03:33,871
I mean, she sees it before I do.

710
01:03:33,991 --> 01:03:35,151
I'm like, what's going on?

711
01:03:35,691 --> 01:03:39,151
And she explained about how there's the two guys,

712
01:03:39,451 --> 01:03:42,731
like side by side doing the exact same thing during the day,

713
01:03:42,831 --> 01:03:45,171
taking the bus, doing their fiat job and whatever else.

714
01:03:45,731 --> 01:03:50,671
And one is just like the demeanor is downtrodden and whatever else.

715
01:03:51,031 --> 01:03:53,271
And the other guy doing the exact same stuff is happy

716
01:03:53,271 --> 01:03:55,991
and living life to the fullest.

717
01:03:56,771 --> 01:03:59,771
And it's obvious which one owns Bitcoin and which one doesn't.

718
01:03:59,771 --> 01:04:01,931
So she thought it was a very powerful app.

719
01:04:02,091 --> 01:04:03,611
Yeah. Is that an ad?

720
01:04:04,131 --> 01:04:05,271
It's not even an ad.

721
01:04:06,591 --> 01:04:09,051
This is the things that we want to do more, right?

722
01:04:09,051 --> 01:04:15,191
It's just explaining and therefore promoting Bitcoin under our brand.

723
01:04:15,311 --> 01:04:18,431
So we're using, of course, our brand and our resources.

724
01:04:18,431 --> 01:04:25,411
We have an amazing motion designer now hired, right, that produces these videos with the help of AI.

725
01:04:26,171 --> 01:04:31,791
And we'll be able to many, many more things like that, working together with influencers.

726
01:04:31,791 --> 01:04:38,511
or producing stuff ourselves and our newsletter our podcasts our blogs are just all this content

727
01:04:38,511 --> 01:04:44,691
that we'll put out with the goal of educating more people about bitcoin is we will be much

728
01:04:44,691 --> 01:04:50,431
stronger now in distributing this through our platform and through our network to more and more

729
01:04:50,431 --> 01:04:57,091
people like your wife she saw it now in a because from or just organically because we posted it and

730
01:04:57,091 --> 01:05:03,291
people shared it that was allowed right but now we'll be able to also put a budget behind it so

731
01:05:03,291 --> 01:05:07,571
we'll be able to for example such a video an educational video it's not necessarily an ad

732
01:05:07,571 --> 01:05:11,311
it's really just an educational video about bitcoin of course it's branded by relay

733
01:05:11,311 --> 01:05:17,251
we'll be able to put budget behind this so imagine if it already goes pretty viral organically

734
01:05:17,251 --> 01:05:26,691
and then if we put budget behind it like paid advertising it on google and meta and

735
01:05:26,691 --> 01:05:33,371
YouTube and all the other networks, then we will just reach way more people with it that will start

736
01:05:33,371 --> 01:05:41,111
to learn and understand and get a good feeling about Bitcoin. We need to build more touch points.

737
01:05:41,791 --> 01:05:48,951
People, until they understand Bitcoin or they understand any sort of product or new thing,

738
01:05:48,951 --> 01:05:52,191
it takes them usually between 15 and 20 touchpoints.

739
01:05:52,191 --> 01:06:06,329
And now that we can reach these 400 million Europeans with our great content that works organically already we can also create way more touch points with these people

740
01:06:06,849 --> 01:06:10,949
So at one point, they will then fall down the rabbit hole and understand Bitcoin.

741
01:06:11,429 --> 01:06:13,989
And then hopefully some of them will buy Bitcoin with us.

742
01:06:14,049 --> 01:06:18,149
But even if they buy Bitcoin with others, it's also fine as long as we get more Bitcoin,

743
01:06:18,149 --> 01:06:19,209
more hands of people.

744
01:06:19,549 --> 01:06:21,989
Well, let's just say people need 21 touch points.

745
01:06:22,709 --> 01:06:22,929
Yeah.

746
01:06:23,909 --> 01:06:27,249
Probably you would find that's actually the case because it's...

747
01:06:27,249 --> 01:06:28,769
That could be the name of your campaign,

748
01:06:28,909 --> 01:06:30,829
but I want to see way more than 21 videos.

749
01:06:31,109 --> 01:06:33,609
But like, yeah, you might, it might be,

750
01:06:34,169 --> 01:06:36,209
let's say you did 200 videos.

751
01:06:36,349 --> 01:06:40,129
It might be a different 21 touch points out of that 200,

752
01:06:40,729 --> 01:06:44,049
but until someone like just suddenly like the epiphany drops.

753
01:06:44,729 --> 01:06:45,209
Absolutely.

754
01:06:45,429 --> 01:06:47,989
That's why it's so important to meet people where they are

755
01:06:47,989 --> 01:06:49,109
and they are on different channels.

756
01:06:49,229 --> 01:06:52,249
That's why, for example, in Lugano, we did a billboard,

757
01:06:52,249 --> 01:06:59,329
the digital billboard ads have you seen them they were so cool like so imagine someone gets

758
01:06:59,329 --> 01:07:05,309
out the train in lugano sees a digital billboard about bitcoin and relay they're like okay cool

759
01:07:05,309 --> 01:07:10,689
and then they walk they pull up their instagram they see this video this ai generated video about

760
01:07:10,689 --> 01:07:15,989
bitcoin they're like oh that's pretty cool and then maybe uh you know they in the evening they

761
01:07:15,989 --> 01:07:21,229
listen to their favorite podcasts uh where the podcaster has a as a stack sets hoodie on and

762
01:07:21,229 --> 01:07:24,429
talks about Bitcoin, right? And talks about Relay. And they're like, oh, cool. That's good.

763
01:07:24,669 --> 01:07:27,969
You know, you need all these different touch points and you meet the people where they are.

764
01:07:29,269 --> 01:07:34,309
And eventually they will be interested in it. It's just, it takes a lot of time and a lot of

765
01:07:34,309 --> 01:07:42,449
grind and a lot of resources and a lot of creativity. And that's where we will be more free now,

766
01:07:42,549 --> 01:07:47,209
now that we have the license, we can be very creative. We can put our capital to work,

767
01:07:47,209 --> 01:07:51,929
our amazing team to work to bring more Bitcoin to more people.

768
01:07:52,049 --> 01:07:53,749
So next year is going to be a really exciting year.

769
01:07:54,189 --> 01:07:54,369
Yeah.

770
01:07:54,569 --> 01:07:56,329
I mean, the reason most people want a Mercedes

771
01:07:56,329 --> 01:07:58,589
is because they remember the ads they watched

772
01:07:58,589 --> 01:08:00,589
when they were three to five years old on the television.

773
01:08:00,909 --> 01:08:05,489
This is literally just psychologically how it happens.

774
01:08:06,089 --> 01:08:06,329
Yeah.

775
01:08:06,909 --> 01:08:07,069
Yeah.

776
01:08:07,229 --> 01:08:10,209
The more it's repetition, the more you see something,

777
01:08:10,329 --> 01:08:14,529
the more you like it and the more you get into it.

778
01:08:14,529 --> 01:08:34,349
And you brought up a good couple of points here that I think we are guilty of assuming that the other people, people that are listening to the podcast or coming to the conferences or watching the YouTube channels or even giving you feedback, right?

779
01:08:34,349 --> 01:08:37,769
Like you said, you face some criticism.

780
01:08:37,769 --> 01:08:47,489
um but like the the point i'm trying to make is i i go back to riga i was uh hosting the stage at

781
01:08:47,489 --> 01:08:54,589
riga and i had to introduce a bitcoin paper summer panel and a lady come up to me during the break

782
01:08:54,589 --> 01:08:59,769
and uh she said can i just give you guys some feedback i'm like yeah absolutely sure like you

783
01:08:59,769 --> 01:09:05,409
know like it's i'm not one of the organizers of the conference but i'd happily take it he said

784
01:09:05,409 --> 01:09:10,089
yeah well you know when you're introducing the the panels and you just throw out words like

785
01:09:10,089 --> 01:09:15,809
bitcoin paper summer uh there's a lot of people in the audience that won't know what that means

786
01:09:15,809 --> 01:09:23,309
and i'm like fuck yeah you just assume because people are there at a conference and it's kind

787
01:09:23,309 --> 01:09:30,549
of an og conference like riga has uh that um kind of reputation for you just assume everyone there

788
01:09:30,549 --> 01:09:32,569
is up to speed, knows what's going on

789
01:09:32,569 --> 01:09:36,809
and is on Twitter following all of the arguments.

790
01:09:37,489 --> 01:09:38,429
And they're not.

791
01:09:39,169 --> 01:09:42,269
And people tuning into this podcast

792
01:09:42,269 --> 01:09:43,749
could be their first podcast.

793
01:09:43,869 --> 01:09:44,329
I don't know.

794
01:09:44,749 --> 01:09:48,629
I can't assume that it's the same X amount of listeners

795
01:09:48,629 --> 01:09:50,089
listening in every week.

796
01:09:51,189 --> 01:09:55,209
But I think we are perhaps guilty of that,

797
01:09:55,309 --> 01:09:56,449
people that have been in the space

798
01:09:56,449 --> 01:09:58,509
for more than a cycle, let's say.

799
01:09:59,149 --> 01:09:59,629
Absolutely.

800
01:10:00,189 --> 01:10:01,389
That's a very good point.

801
01:10:01,629 --> 01:10:03,849
And I see this almost every day.

802
01:10:03,849 --> 01:10:14,669
Whenever I speak somewhere or I'm at an event or people come up and talk to me, people have no clue still.

803
01:10:14,869 --> 01:10:15,969
There's so many people.

804
01:10:16,569 --> 01:10:17,769
Lately, I was at an event.

805
01:10:18,029 --> 01:10:22,829
It was more for, in general, entrepreneurs and investors here in Switzerland.

806
01:10:23,529 --> 01:10:27,649
Wealthy people, super smart people in the audience, maybe 30 or 40 of them.

807
01:10:27,649 --> 01:10:32,469
and we talked about investing in general in different asset classes we had someone from

808
01:10:32,469 --> 01:10:38,769
vc someone from real estate and i was the kind of bitcoin representative right with very good

809
01:10:38,769 --> 01:10:46,129
panel discussion and then people come up to me with these absolute simple basic questions of like

810
01:10:46,129 --> 01:10:52,749
you know you i think you convinced me i want to try to invest a little bit in bitcoin and a little

811
01:10:52,749 --> 01:11:00,069
bit for them is like 100k so they're like okay i will max out the 100k i can do with the app and

812
01:11:00,069 --> 01:11:04,349
then if i'm interested further i will probably sign up for relay private sounds interesting and

813
01:11:04,349 --> 01:11:11,029
then we'll allocate more capital to it and then in the same breath they ask you know but so far

814
01:11:11,029 --> 01:11:16,609
i haven't done it because it just uses so much energy and i'm kind of sustainability is important

815
01:11:16,609 --> 01:11:24,729
to me and also i'm not sure if it will be banned by china it will probably be soon banned by china

816
01:11:24,729 --> 01:11:30,889
that was why it was a bit of a risk for me and and you know and and maybe and also quantum

817
01:11:30,889 --> 01:11:36,309
computing i think will scatter it anyway uh in a few years that's why i'm so far not interested

818
01:11:36,309 --> 01:11:44,269
and that it is super basic questions which just show that 90 in my opinion from from what i see

819
01:11:44,269 --> 01:11:57,049
90% of the people haven't put in maybe the, let's say, 50 hours or 100 hours that are needed to understand what Bitcoin is, how big it is, how safe it is, and everything.

820
01:11:57,669 --> 01:11:58,769
Many people just don't know.

821
01:11:59,749 --> 01:12:02,269
They didn't put in the hours.

822
01:12:02,829 --> 01:12:05,049
And that's even very smart, very wealthy people.

823
01:12:05,049 --> 01:12:17,289
So now think about the average people who have maybe the slightly below average IQ, which is 40 or 50 percent of the population that have a normal job.

824
01:12:17,509 --> 01:12:22,789
They also have some money aside that they want to keep for the future, but they have no idea about Bitcoin.

825
01:12:23,329 --> 01:12:25,569
So many people still have no idea about Bitcoin.

826
01:12:25,569 --> 01:12:30,409
And that's why our mission is to educate as many as possible about it,

827
01:12:30,489 --> 01:12:33,869
because those who understand, usually they get involved

828
01:12:33,869 --> 01:12:36,229
and usually it does very well for them in the long term.

829
01:12:37,229 --> 01:12:38,189
Yeah, 100%.

830
01:12:38,189 --> 01:12:40,549
So let's keep that in front of our minds.

831
01:12:40,769 --> 01:12:43,409
Don't be afraid to ask the dumb questions.

832
01:12:43,749 --> 01:12:43,989
Yeah.

833
01:12:43,989 --> 01:12:49,029
And challenge.

834
01:12:49,949 --> 01:12:50,949
That's the thing, right?

835
01:12:51,889 --> 01:12:54,349
Challenge the narrative.

836
01:12:54,349 --> 01:12:59,369
I mean, I spent the best part of 40 years of my life not asking questions.

837
01:13:01,149 --> 01:13:03,129
I'm not going to make that mistake again.

838
01:13:03,529 --> 01:13:06,169
You know, I changed that habit and it changed my life.

839
01:13:06,469 --> 01:13:11,209
And I think that's what we should be doing is asking as many questions as possible.

840
01:13:11,929 --> 01:13:14,209
Last thing on the spelling relay.

841
01:13:14,389 --> 01:13:21,089
I'm sure I asked you this probably way back when on one of our first interviews, but why R-E-L-A-I?

842
01:13:21,089 --> 01:13:28,309
has nothing to do with ai well that was my next follow-up because i think i think you should i

843
01:13:28,309 --> 01:13:34,589
think you should go and check can you buy the domain r-e-l.ai before someone else does

844
01:13:34,589 --> 01:13:42,829
because you might you might start attracting a lot of ai like investors or ai curious people

845
01:13:42,829 --> 01:13:48,469
what are these dudes doing in ai oh they're a big one yeah maybe but then do we do we really

846
01:13:48,469 --> 01:13:52,829
want these investors right because no you don't want you don't want them to invest in your company

847
01:13:52,829 --> 01:13:58,189
but you want them to to be exposed to your bitcoin education or touchpoint video and things like that

848
01:13:58,189 --> 01:14:05,129
yeah that's true that's true now where where did these this name come from oh to be very honest i

849
01:14:05,129 --> 01:14:11,509
don't have a great answer to this i i think at one point like we were just brainstorming for for

850
01:14:11,509 --> 01:14:18,669
a name we just need a working title for basically our presentations that we had very early on at

851
01:14:18,669 --> 01:14:22,849
these startup competitions and like just the first pitch deck that we wanted to send out to a few

852
01:14:22,849 --> 01:14:28,089
engine investors right so we didn't think this through to be honest and we needed a working

853
01:14:28,089 --> 01:14:32,589
title and so we were brainstorming for a few hours together with adam and i think at one point it was

854
01:14:32,589 --> 01:14:38,709
even it was the first working title was and there's still a pitch deck on this uh where it's called

855
01:14:38,709 --> 01:14:46,549
richie which we found somehow cool because it's a name and i don't know richie and then i were like

856
01:14:46,549 --> 01:14:51,749
no it sounds some somehow like rich and we don't want that it's not about getting rich right and

857
01:14:51,749 --> 01:15:00,149
then somehow relay and with an with a why this was already given this is a big um shop kind of chain

858
01:15:00,149 --> 01:15:05,669
you know that you see on all the airports so we're like no this is already given a relay with i is

859
01:15:05,669 --> 01:15:13,189
still available and why relay is because this is like this device right so a relay in the traditional

860
01:15:13,189 --> 01:15:23,989
just uh electronic industry is is a device that basically takes small signals and relays them into

861
01:15:23,989 --> 01:15:29,189
a big one and that was that was kind of we thought that story is kind of cool because you know weekly

862
01:15:29,189 --> 01:15:35,589
or monthly small savings can turn to a big signal also signal from the noise right so

863
01:15:35,589 --> 01:15:40,749
there are a few things that we thought oh that's cool it will do as a working title and then we

864
01:15:40,749 --> 01:15:47,689
just never we just you know hired marketing people that branded this thing and now we have hundreds

865
01:15:47,689 --> 01:15:52,669
of thousands of followers on social media and everyone knows relay as kind of the leading bitcoin

866
01:15:52,669 --> 01:16:00,089
on-ramp in in europe and so i don't think it would be a good idea now to to change it anymore so we

867
01:16:00,089 --> 01:16:05,909
just keep it it works well it's short it's crisp it's memorable yeah people now connected to bitcoin

868
01:16:05,909 --> 01:16:10,429
which is what we want so it's it's a good it has become a pretty good brand absolutely and what

869
01:16:10,429 --> 01:16:15,489
with the latest debate about op return and relay policy and like so you know like relay you are

870
01:16:15,489 --> 01:16:31,668
relaying transactions as well uh every time somebody buys bitcoin through you that transaction It works really well mate And I couldn remember the reason obviously i know very well relay with a y is taken by that big megastore so

871
01:16:31,668 --> 01:16:37,868
you'd never have been able to get that so yeah now but now you rel.ai you've got some ai people

872
01:16:37,868 --> 01:16:47,468
coming your way uh that well just to give you um i can tell you this because it's being announced

873
01:16:47,468 --> 01:16:54,068
today and this recording will not go out for a week or two but uh yeah orange pill app is is

874
01:16:54,068 --> 01:17:01,568
rebranding today so oh yeah okay so i'm not saying you relay a rebranding i love the branding i think

875
01:17:01,568 --> 01:17:05,648
it's brilliant and now i like the ai at the end and i think you're going to get a lot of traction

876
01:17:05,648 --> 01:17:12,708
with that but yeah orange pill app is is going to rebrand to uh club orange so look out for that

877
01:17:12,708 --> 01:17:18,988
announcement today cool yeah Matteo is doing a great job too I like these these bitcoin companies

878
01:17:18,988 --> 01:17:25,128
are really resilient and long-term thinking and they just they just never give up and that's

879
01:17:25,128 --> 01:17:29,608
that's amazing that's a great trade that's why many of them will be successful because they never

880
01:17:29,608 --> 01:17:35,228
fucking give up absolutely I'm just about to lose camera one sec I'll be uh I'm not going anywhere

881
01:17:35,228 --> 01:17:42,588
still here um yeah absolutely and um yeah he's he's done a great job uh three years old as well

882
01:17:42,588 --> 01:17:50,328
in a few days time time has flown by and uh yeah i've worked closely alongside that project as well

883
01:17:50,328 --> 01:17:55,728
so it's been great to see you entrepreneurs you builders that are doing stuff and building and

884
01:17:55,728 --> 01:17:59,788
offering goods and services into the market and stacking bitcoin onto your balance sheet like

885
01:17:59,788 --> 01:18:06,348
mateo has as well which is uh the right thing to do for any small business let's uh let's be frank

886
01:18:06,348 --> 01:18:12,128
but certainly bitcoin small businesses uh is there anything else before i ask you the final question

887
01:18:12,128 --> 01:18:15,488
and I know you know what that is, but...

888
01:18:15,488 --> 01:18:17,528
Okay, now I need to start thinking.

889
01:18:18,068 --> 01:18:19,628
No, I mean, is there anything else?

890
01:18:19,628 --> 01:18:21,928
I was wondering what you think,

891
01:18:22,068 --> 01:18:23,768
but maybe we don't have too much time anymore,

892
01:18:23,888 --> 01:18:24,968
but in a quick one,

893
01:18:25,028 --> 01:18:27,028
what do you think about Bitcoin treasury companies?

894
01:18:28,688 --> 01:18:30,468
Well, I like the Bitcoin treasury companies

895
01:18:30,468 --> 01:18:31,508
we've been talking about.

896
01:18:31,708 --> 01:18:32,068
Exactly.

897
01:18:32,728 --> 01:18:34,508
Because they're like two different ones, right?

898
01:18:34,848 --> 01:18:36,968
The more responsible ones

899
01:18:36,968 --> 01:18:38,628
that just put some profit

900
01:18:38,628 --> 01:18:40,248
and long-term capital into Bitcoin.

901
01:18:40,348 --> 01:18:41,148
That makes a lot of sense.

902
01:18:41,148 --> 01:18:43,368
honestly for every company, right?

903
01:18:43,568 --> 01:18:43,788
Yes.

904
01:18:44,068 --> 01:18:47,468
And then there are the extreme Bitcoin treasury companies

905
01:18:47,468 --> 01:18:52,108
that are very aggressively raising debt

906
01:18:52,108 --> 01:18:57,168
and just weak fiat currency to buy Bitcoin

907
01:18:57,168 --> 01:19:00,848
and stack the hardest money out there,

908
01:19:01,188 --> 01:19:06,508
which might also be a very interesting proposition, right?

909
01:19:06,968 --> 01:19:07,228
Yeah.

910
01:19:07,228 --> 01:19:11,748
But fear around and find out is where I'm falling on that one at the moment.

911
01:19:11,748 --> 01:19:22,528
Because I think a lot of these CurePlay treasury companies are touching the stove with both hands.

912
01:19:23,408 --> 01:19:26,628
I think they're actually just jumping straight on and sitting on the stove.

913
01:19:26,628 --> 01:19:42,148
Like, you know, to keep raising debt the way and to keep financially engineering all of this kind of like mad plays to try and get in as much fiat capital as you can from where?

914
01:19:42,268 --> 01:19:44,828
Where does that fiat come from? Who do you owe it back to?

915
01:19:45,248 --> 01:19:50,548
Is it being printed out of thin air and then sent across for you to buy Bitcoin with it?

916
01:19:50,548 --> 01:19:59,088
are you printing shares and hawking those shares into private pension funds for Bitcoiners with

917
01:19:59,088 --> 01:20:04,728
so-called trapped capital to part with their hard-earned fear at the end of the day? And I

918
01:20:04,728 --> 01:20:10,628
know this fear is like a lot of Bitcoiners say, oh, well, I'm never going to get it in 10 years

919
01:20:10,628 --> 01:20:14,728
time, or I've got to wait 10 years till I get it. It's going to get inflated away or blah, blah,

920
01:20:14,748 --> 01:20:19,868
blah. It's like, yeah, but guys, you know, trapped capital is still better than wrecked capital.

921
01:20:19,868 --> 01:20:27,528
And, you know, buying buying penny stocks was never a good idea in any sector.

922
01:20:28,628 --> 01:20:30,728
But buying penny stocks.

923
01:20:31,848 --> 01:20:45,108
From companies that are really playing some very strange financial engineering games, very advanced financial engineering games, they're playing in the they're playing in the Vipers den.

924
01:20:45,548 --> 01:20:47,028
Right. This is Wall Street's game.

925
01:20:47,028 --> 01:20:49,808
They they own the rules. They write the rules.

926
01:20:49,868 --> 01:21:01,188
and they don't care about you uh i look i don't want anyone getting wrecked i and i i i exercise

927
01:21:01,188 --> 01:21:08,488
a huge amount of caution when i look at what's going on with these pure bitcoin treasury company

928
01:21:08,488 --> 01:21:17,048
plays and uh i don't think i don't think bondholders pivot to penny stocks anytime soon

929
01:21:17,048 --> 01:21:22,988
I don't think I know hedge funds and institutions can't buy penny stocks.

930
01:21:23,668 --> 01:21:25,648
So that money isn't coming.

931
01:21:25,928 --> 01:21:29,868
And I see some people promise the other the other way.

932
01:21:30,848 --> 01:21:34,368
So, yeah, be careful out there is all I would say.

933
01:21:35,088 --> 01:21:41,908
Stack your sets, put them in cold storage, sit on your hands, live your life like the two guys on the bus right on your video.

934
01:21:42,468 --> 01:21:44,128
You know, just just be that guy.

935
01:21:44,128 --> 01:21:46,528
Be that guy for one or two cycles.

936
01:21:47,048 --> 01:21:48,568
You know, don't give up your job.

937
01:21:49,368 --> 01:21:51,088
Try and spend as much time with your family.

938
01:21:52,068 --> 01:21:53,968
Mind your fear if that's what you need to do.

939
01:21:54,548 --> 01:21:57,388
You know, cut your expenses, stack as many sats as you can,

940
01:21:57,488 --> 01:21:58,448
put them in cold storage,

941
01:21:59,068 --> 01:22:01,788
and your life will be different in four to eight years.

942
01:22:03,028 --> 01:22:03,708
That's beautiful.

943
01:22:03,708 --> 01:22:07,648
Yeah, I agree with a lot of things you said.

944
01:22:08,048 --> 01:22:09,768
It's definitely adding risk.

945
01:22:10,208 --> 01:22:13,608
Definitely not every Bitcoin treasury company,

946
01:22:13,848 --> 01:22:16,408
that pure play treasury company will make it.

947
01:22:16,408 --> 01:22:18,828
many are doing it for the wrong reasons

948
01:22:18,828 --> 01:22:20,528
many doing it the wrong way

949
01:22:20,528 --> 01:22:23,148
but I still feel

950
01:22:23,148 --> 01:22:25,148
I'm quite intrigued by

951
01:22:25,148 --> 01:22:27,288
just the principle of

952
01:22:27,288 --> 01:22:28,588
raising

953
01:22:28,588 --> 01:22:30,948
weak currency as debt

954
01:22:30,948 --> 01:22:33,188
which will devalue over time

955
01:22:33,188 --> 01:22:35,388
and raising it at very low interest rates

956
01:22:35,388 --> 01:22:36,948
to

957
01:22:36,948 --> 01:22:38,848
buy Bitcoin

958
01:22:38,848 --> 01:22:41,148
which is increasing in value

959
01:22:41,148 --> 01:22:41,748
over time

960
01:22:41,748 --> 01:22:43,908
I just think it's interesting

961
01:22:43,908 --> 01:22:46,068
it potentially is an interesting play

962
01:22:46,068 --> 01:22:51,688
but I agree with you very very should be very cautious and at this point I'm also going to say

963
01:22:51,688 --> 01:22:57,228
we are not considering this with relay right because we our mission is exactly what you

964
01:22:57,228 --> 01:23:02,488
mentioned to bring as many bitcoin in self-custody which is the lowest risk thing you can do just buy

965
01:23:02,488 --> 01:23:10,468
bitcoin hold it in self-custody for long term this it has the highest chance of just doing very well

966
01:23:10,468 --> 01:23:17,108
financially and there's there's very low amount of risk um the other is a high risk thing so we

967
01:23:17,108 --> 01:23:24,588
are with relay we are on the low risk end of this but i i find it interesting to see it play out and

968
01:23:24,588 --> 01:23:30,248
i think some of these treasury companies can potentially be very very um successful because

969
01:23:30,248 --> 01:23:36,348
they exploit this inherent weakness of the fiat financial system and there's another like troin

970
01:23:36,348 --> 01:23:43,628
horse where we um with with bit where bitcoin infiltrates in this case it's wall street right

971
01:23:43,628 --> 01:23:49,568
yeah but like i say that's the viper's den and they've got lots of tricks up their sleeve i

972
01:23:49,568 --> 01:23:59,048
spent 18 years in that world and you know um and yeah american hodl made a great video about this

973
01:23:59,048 --> 01:24:05,268
i don't know if you ever saw it uh who's trojan horsing who is the name of it go check it out on

974
01:24:05,268 --> 01:24:12,028
muster it's very very interesting and it's classic hodl he does a great job of it and uh i guess

975
01:24:12,028 --> 01:24:19,448
yeah we have to be careful are we playing who's playing into whose hands here and uh oh oh but by

976
01:24:19,448 --> 01:24:26,728
by doing this kind of stuff are you inadvertently validating the existing fiat currency

977
01:24:26,728 --> 01:24:32,868
financial rails by entering into it and playing their games on their terms.

978
01:24:34,268 --> 01:24:42,708
Yeah, there's a certain amount of staying humble that is not being adhered to at the moment

979
01:24:42,708 --> 01:24:48,768
in the wider world out there. And be careful, look at before any, like back to asking questions,

980
01:24:48,848 --> 01:24:55,108
right? And making critiques. Before anybody invests in these Bitcoin treasury companies,

981
01:24:55,108 --> 01:25:01,548
please understand that they are very high risk they are they are literally penny stocks now just

982
01:25:01,548 --> 01:25:06,668
please look that look at their filings uh i don't know what it would be called in many different

983
01:25:06,668 --> 01:25:13,568
parts of europe but in the uk it's an admissions document in the us it's uh the s1 form and you can

984
01:25:13,568 --> 01:25:19,068
look at that and literally copy paste it and put it in ai like do the very minimum basic research

985
01:25:19,068 --> 01:25:24,668
and ask ai to look over this any red flags that you see here yeah just do what i did on a few of

986
01:25:24,668 --> 01:25:32,488
them is command f treasury and as soon as i did that on one particular uh document that i was

987
01:25:32,488 --> 01:25:40,668
looking at the word treasury was preceded with the words digital asset every single time but

988
01:25:40,668 --> 01:25:48,508
they promote themselves as a bitcoin treasury company in all other comms but on the you're

989
01:25:48,508 --> 01:25:52,468
like, wait a second, digital asset, digital asset treasury company.

990
01:25:53,028 --> 01:25:57,088
Then you look at the glossary of terms and definitions and what they define as digital

991
01:25:57,088 --> 01:26:00,788
assets, Bitcoin, Ethereum, stable coins, this other thing.

992
01:26:00,868 --> 01:26:05,808
You're like, holy fuck, guys, like this is like, would you have invested in that company

993
01:26:05,808 --> 01:26:12,268
if you knew that that was what they were actually, you know, running and declaring at the door

994
01:26:12,268 --> 01:26:13,088
of the regulator?

995
01:26:13,088 --> 01:26:25,488
so like i say assume nothing just question everything and have a critical mindset because

996
01:26:25,488 --> 01:26:31,288
otherwise you know what are we doing we we're just going to leave the door open for people to come in

997
01:26:31,288 --> 01:26:39,648
julian how how how many fucking wrecked problems have we had in this last just four years right

998
01:26:39,648 --> 01:26:44,768
FTX, Celsius, BlockFi, Terra Luna, all of this stuff,

999
01:26:44,948 --> 01:27:03,047
this has wrecked so many people Family fortunes have it my family fortunes have been lost and if we can just forget that uh so that exercise caution that absolutely a hundred percent but that

1000
01:27:03,047 --> 01:27:08,227
how people work right they want to take some risks if there's it's very hard for people

1001
01:27:08,227 --> 01:27:15,447
to just do something and be consistent for 10 years i bought my first bitcoin 10 years ago that's

1002
01:27:15,447 --> 01:27:20,907
also a story i tell people right when they say oh it's too late blah blah right i bought bitcoin 10

1003
01:27:20,907 --> 01:27:27,707
years ago it's 500 bucks all you had to do is buy and wait for 10 years and you make it 200x now

1004
01:27:27,707 --> 01:27:33,607
maybe you will make even if you make it 10x in the next 10 years but it's probably going to be more

1005
01:27:33,607 --> 01:27:40,007
than that just the only thing you need to do is buy it hold it yourself and wait but this is the

1006
01:27:40,007 --> 01:27:43,927
hardest thing for people to do because they get nervous and they're like what else could i do i

1007
01:27:43,927 --> 01:27:49,527
could i could take a loan against my bitcoin and invest it in more bitcoin or invest it in

1008
01:27:49,527 --> 01:27:54,327
bitcoin treasury companies which is that the promise is to accumulate more bitcoin per share

1009
01:27:54,327 --> 01:27:59,767
over time and of course this all of these investments or into altcoins or into defy

1010
01:27:59,767 --> 01:28:07,847
schemes or whatever all of these investments add risk they add potential reward too like if you

1011
01:28:07,847 --> 01:28:14,407
invested in micro strategy five years ago you would have outforn bitcoin so they are potential reward

1012
01:28:14,407 --> 01:28:19,767
but also huge potential risk so in the end it's really do you want to make a safe

1013
01:28:19,767 --> 01:28:27,747
increase in purchasing power over time then just as you said before buy bitcoin sit on your hands

1014
01:28:27,747 --> 01:28:34,267
that's a very hard thing to do as well it's simple but it's not easy right or yeah you play these

1015
01:28:34,267 --> 01:28:39,007
games sometimes you win sometimes you lose the opportunities are great but also the risks are

1016
01:28:39,007 --> 01:28:47,107
great so always do your research and really be cautious yeah right final question i know you've

1017
01:28:47,107 --> 01:28:48,627
just been buying your time haven't you

1018
01:28:48,627 --> 01:28:58,587
if you had one last orange pill left to give to somebody who would you give it to and why

1019
01:28:58,587 --> 01:29:04,707
oh i didn't know it's the last one that's the last one i've ever i had oh that makes it harder

1020
01:29:04,707 --> 01:29:15,507
no um no i was thinking sergio al-motti the ceo of ubs because this is a huge company now

1021
01:29:15,507 --> 01:29:22,547
Now that they merged with Credit Suisse, it's not only the biggest bank in Switzerland, it's one of the biggest investment banks in the world.

1022
01:29:23,447 --> 01:29:26,407
And they have a lot of wealthy clients.

1023
01:29:26,747 --> 01:29:37,507
I lately had lunch with a guy that is in some sort of extended board of directors of the UBS.

1024
01:29:37,507 --> 01:29:41,347
So he's there for 15, 20 years.

1025
01:29:41,487 --> 01:29:47,067
He's really well connected within the bank and has something to say and has a lot of access.

1026
01:29:48,067 --> 01:29:48,787
He's a Bitcoiner.

1027
01:29:49,167 --> 01:29:53,647
I mean, maybe define it as a Bitcoiner, but he definitely understood Bitcoin.

1028
01:29:53,987 --> 01:29:56,587
He's very pro-Bitcoin, but also pro-crypto.

1029
01:29:56,707 --> 01:29:57,147
But it's fine.

1030
01:29:57,307 --> 01:29:58,927
He definitely understood Bitcoin.

1031
01:29:59,947 --> 01:30:05,507
And he said there are around a thousand billionaires in the world.

1032
01:30:06,167 --> 01:30:07,267
It's not that many.

1033
01:30:07,507 --> 01:30:08,767
I thought it was more.

1034
01:30:09,007 --> 01:30:09,907
It was only like a thousand.

1035
01:30:10,627 --> 01:30:14,167
And the UBS, they have access to like half of them.

1036
01:30:14,807 --> 01:30:19,527
In some sort of way, they're working with like every other billionaire in the world.

1037
01:30:20,647 --> 01:30:28,407
And so I would be like if Sergio Armotti, who has a lot to say, he's really controlling this huge ship.

1038
01:30:28,967 --> 01:30:33,687
If he got Orange Pill and finally understood Bitcoin, which I think he's on the path of it.

1039
01:30:33,687 --> 01:30:42,047
he said something rather positive about bitcoin in january this year at the world economic forum

1040
01:30:42,047 --> 01:30:49,247
in davos when he got interviewed by bloomberg he said something along the lines there's a quote

1041
01:30:49,247 --> 01:30:57,907
online i think bitcoin is more than speculation so he kind of switches the tune very gradually

1042
01:30:57,907 --> 01:31:03,247
very slowly from Bitcoin is nothing, right?

1043
01:31:03,347 --> 01:31:06,287
We don't even consider it to actually there might be something.

1044
01:31:07,127 --> 01:31:13,647
And so if he got orange pilled and he then manages to orange pill a few of these billionaires,

1045
01:31:13,747 --> 01:31:17,287
I think that would have a, if I had one last pill, I would probably give it to him.

1046
01:31:17,347 --> 01:31:18,407
That could have a big impact.

1047
01:31:19,607 --> 01:31:19,887
All right.

1048
01:31:20,167 --> 01:31:24,607
Well, mate, I think, you know, as well as I do, it is inevitable.

1049
01:31:24,607 --> 01:31:31,087
it is gradually then suddenly not to parker lewis um and it is uh the work that you guys are doing

1050
01:31:31,087 --> 01:31:37,227
over at relay that is is helping this one day at a time one step at a time one sat at a time one

1051
01:31:37,227 --> 01:31:42,907
pleb at a time like you know it's uh it's a special moment in history and uh just glad to be

1052
01:31:42,907 --> 01:31:48,487
part of it and watch it play out and uh meet people like yourself and uh yeah thank you very

1053
01:31:48,487 --> 01:31:51,547
much for coming on and everything that you guys do look forward to the next few years

1054
01:31:51,547 --> 01:31:57,147
thank you so much daniel always always a pleasure appreciate it see you soon take care brother

1055
01:31:57,147 --> 01:32:03,747
well there you go guys thank you so much for listening as always and thank you again julian

1056
01:32:03,747 --> 01:32:08,507
for coming on and sharing this journey that you guys have been on for the last couple of years

1057
01:32:08,507 --> 01:32:14,607
in the last five years in total that you've been building out really uh what a incredible journey

1058
01:32:14,607 --> 01:32:21,387
it's been it's been an honor to be close enough to it to have got to know you and adam and uh

1059
01:32:21,387 --> 01:32:28,267
some other members of the team as well as you've just grown from strength to strength it's uh it's

1060
01:32:28,267 --> 01:32:36,467
great to see and yeah more bitcoin only companies that's all i can say if if you've been inspired

1061
01:32:36,467 --> 01:32:42,787
by anything julian said here if you think there's any position for you that you might be able to add

1062
01:32:42,787 --> 01:32:48,707
some value to to what they're doing over there do not hesitate to reach out to julian or the team

1063
01:32:48,707 --> 01:32:53,667
and go introduce yourself at one of the conferences next year.

1064
01:32:54,307 --> 01:32:56,867
As you heard here and as I said at the beginning,

1065
01:32:57,347 --> 01:33:02,647
they're going to be able to start putting more effort and budget towards marketing

1066
01:33:02,647 --> 01:33:03,987
and getting themselves out there.

1067
01:33:04,147 --> 01:33:08,167
So they'll be available and they'll be looking, obviously, to grow.

1068
01:33:09,067 --> 01:33:15,207
So it's a great time in this particular journey of Relays.

1069
01:33:15,327 --> 01:33:16,747
They've got the license in place.

1070
01:33:16,927 --> 01:33:17,687
They're well-funded.

1071
01:33:17,687 --> 01:33:26,327
They've built themselves a nice stack of Bitcoin on the balance sheet in a sensible way, might I just add there.

1072
01:33:26,987 --> 01:33:33,327
And yeah, let's all power to you guys and looking forward to another great year for 2026.

1073
01:33:33,527 --> 01:33:42,987
So if you've not used Relay to stack and you do live in the EU and you are able to download the app,

1074
01:33:42,987 --> 01:33:46,927
there's absolutely no downside in you doing that just to take a look around.

1075
01:33:46,927 --> 01:33:50,027
see if it's a service that is good for you.

1076
01:33:50,527 --> 01:33:52,627
Like I say, beginning and end of every show,

1077
01:33:52,787 --> 01:33:54,247
you can just hit the link in the show notes,

1078
01:33:54,687 --> 01:33:57,787
relay, R-E-L-A-I dot C-H forward slash bitten.

1079
01:33:57,967 --> 01:33:58,967
We'll take you straight there

1080
01:33:58,967 --> 01:34:03,007
and you'll get a cut on commission fees

1081
01:34:03,007 --> 01:34:04,087
by using that link.

1082
01:34:05,607 --> 01:34:07,507
What is there left to say?

1083
01:34:10,147 --> 01:34:11,647
We're almost at the end of the year.

1084
01:34:13,527 --> 01:34:15,047
What a year it's been, guys.

1085
01:34:15,047 --> 01:34:27,047
I mean, wow, it's never a quiet year in Bitcoin, but this year alone has just been an absolute whirlwind of...

1086
01:34:27,587 --> 01:34:39,947
It's been very confusing, very interesting, and there's been a lot of battles fought over certain areas of Bitcoin, certain segments.

1087
01:34:39,947 --> 01:34:45,987
there's been a lot of frustration out there so if you're if you're kind of new here don't worry

1088
01:34:45,987 --> 01:34:55,907
as much as it's easy for me to say like you know bitcoin is going to be just fine just keep stacking

1089
01:34:55,907 --> 01:35:05,167
your sats and keep getting them into cold storage keep a long long time frame horizon on this this is

1090
01:35:05,167 --> 01:35:12,167
not just an investment or a trade that you're going to you know flip out of and you know make

1091
01:35:12,167 --> 01:35:21,747
mad gains bro keep things as simple as you can stack your sats weekly or monthly use you know

1092
01:35:21,747 --> 01:35:30,187
very good services relay are a perfect example and get those sats into your possession so with

1093
01:35:30,187 --> 01:35:32,887
Relay that's built in because it's your wallet.

1094
01:35:33,567 --> 01:35:34,847
That is yours.

1095
01:35:35,367 --> 01:35:38,807
The sats you stack are under your control.

1096
01:35:39,727 --> 01:35:47,467
If you've already got some sats somewhere else on a different exchange or a different app, don't worry.

1097
01:35:47,807 --> 01:35:50,567
You can take full self-custody of those.

1098
01:35:50,727 --> 01:35:52,507
You just need a hardware wallet.

1099
01:35:52,867 --> 01:35:56,507
Get yourself a Bitbox, bitbox.swiss forward slash bitun.

1100
01:35:56,507 --> 01:36:01,567
You can hit the link in the show notes there and get yourself a 5% discount using the code BITTON

1101
01:36:01,567 --> 01:36:04,707
and then get complete control of that Bitcoin.

1102
01:36:04,907 --> 01:36:08,027
If you want to start accepting Bitcoin, paywithflash.com.

1103
01:36:08,287 --> 01:36:10,607
Get over there just right now.

1104
01:36:10,887 --> 01:36:13,667
Go hit that link, paywithflash.com.

1105
01:36:14,867 --> 01:36:17,447
And lastly, don't be lonely this Christmas.

1106
01:36:18,267 --> 01:36:19,787
Download Club Orange.

1107
01:36:20,267 --> 01:36:21,947
Go find your nearest Bitcoiner.

1108
01:36:22,627 --> 01:36:24,347
Go have that coffee.

1109
01:36:24,547 --> 01:36:25,667
Go have that beer.

1110
01:36:25,667 --> 01:36:33,787
go get dinner just start a meet up with them get out there if you're traveling download club orange

1111
01:36:33,787 --> 01:36:39,027
and find you the bitcoiners that are going to be on the ground ready and waiting to welcome you when

1112
01:36:39,027 --> 01:36:45,447
you get there with all of the local knowledge to let you know exactly where to get plugged in to

1113
01:36:45,447 --> 01:36:52,127
the bitcoin network whether that's with local merchants or local people meetups whatever it's

1114
01:36:52,127 --> 01:36:58,627
a great tool and there's almost 20,000 Bitcoiners around the world now. It's like 19,500 members.

1115
01:36:58,627 --> 01:37:06,927
So come 2026, they'll cross that 20,000 barrier and it will keep growing. So go and explore and

1116
01:37:06,927 --> 01:37:12,507
be part of the social layer of Bitcoin. Thank you everybody for listening and I'll catch you on the

1117
01:37:12,507 --> 01:37:12,967
next show.