1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,840 Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast. 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:17,560 This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can 3 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:24,540 around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean 4 00:00:24,540 --> 00:00:29,560 for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so 5 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:36,520 much for listening. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Once Bitten podcast. Now 6 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:42,700 you're probably thinking, you've looked at the title of this show and you're thinking, what the 7 00:00:42,700 --> 00:00:48,160 hell is Princey doing talking about Bitcoin treasury companies when all he's ever done is 8 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:55,220 tweet about how shitty they are, what a grift they are and been a bit of a negative Nancy about the 9 00:00:55,220 --> 00:01:02,480 whole thing. That's still my stance, by the way. But not all Bitcoin treasury companies are created 10 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:09,960 equal. Some, like B-Hodl, are taking a completely different approach to a lot of the ones that I've 11 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:16,460 seen just reverse IPO themselves with a bunch of venture capital money, take over a shell company 12 00:01:16,460 --> 00:01:22,000 on an existing bourse somewhere around the world. They don't care where they find these companies 13 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,920 and then they turn it into a share printing machine 14 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:33,020 so that they can buy Bitcoin with the money that is given up by basically Bitcoin plebs around the world 15 00:01:33,020 --> 00:01:38,260 that are trying to do something with trapped capital such as pension funds. 16 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,820 That's not what B-Hodl are. 17 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:44,500 They have created a completely different company. 18 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:45,920 They've listed that company. 19 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:47,600 They've gone through all of those regulations. 20 00:01:48,180 --> 00:01:50,800 This is in conjunction with CoinCorner. 21 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:56,320 Coin Corner, a Bitcoin-only exchange, been around since 2014, running out of the Isle 22 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:56,700 of Man. 23 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,540 Same founding member, same founding team running that. 24 00:02:00,940 --> 00:02:06,780 And we've got Danny Scott, who is the founder and CEO of Coin Corner, on here today as the 25 00:02:06,780 --> 00:02:08,840 chief Bitcoin officer of B-Hodl. 26 00:02:09,180 --> 00:02:15,720 And the CFO, Dave Boylan, who is the CFO for both Coin Corner and for B-Hodl. 27 00:02:15,920 --> 00:02:19,960 So Freddie New couldn't join us, unfortunately, getting four of us together at the same time 28 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,980 on the same day just proved to be an absolute nightmare this is why i'm so late to the game 29 00:02:23,980 --> 00:02:28,380 getting these kind of uh things out because we wanted everybody to be on the call in the end 30 00:02:28,380 --> 00:02:34,080 we had to go forward and we did it with dave and danny i hope you enjoy it before we get into the 31 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:41,320 show go and check out historyofbitcoin.io and if you are an avid art collector especially if you 32 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:50,080 love the history of bitcoin check out at buy smash toshi on twitter by smash toshi on twitter 33 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:58,260 there's an auction running on scarce.city for a beautiful piece of artwork okay show shields are 34 00:02:58,260 --> 00:03:02,900 you stacking your sats if not why not across europe the best place that you can do that is 35 00:03:02,900 --> 00:03:10,640 relay r-e-l-a-i dot ch forward slash bitten get stacking today they also have a white glove surface 36 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:17,700 service for your high net worth individuals or for your businesses that want to go and start 37 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:23,380 accepting bitcoin for your goods and services if you want to do that by the way you can just 38 00:03:23,380 --> 00:03:31,800 set up straight away paywithflash.com exists for you to be able to start accepting bitcoin 39 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:38,320 for your goods and services it's done click and click and go it is so simple it's not a lengthy 40 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:45,600 the old setup pro is no pay with flash.com it exists finally take self custody of your bitcoin 41 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:53,560 if you've not already oh god like how many have you have got bitcoin on an exchange that you sold 42 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,980 when you saw it go down and then you're frantically trying to buy it back as it's going up you get 43 00:03:57,980 --> 00:04:03,420 caught into this mindset of trying to trade to get more bitcoin it never works you just want to get 44 00:04:03,420 --> 00:04:09,800 that Bitcoin off of the exchanges and into cold storage. And then in 10 years time, you'll wake up 45 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,440 and you're like, oh shit, I don't need to do this fiat nonsense anymore because I've been stacking 46 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:21,340 sats and taking self-custody. Get over to bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten. Get your keys under your 47 00:04:21,340 --> 00:04:26,680 control. I couldn't make that any clearer. Please make that a New Year's resolution. Order one for 48 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:31,420 Christmas. Just order one for Christmas and hand it to the wife. Make sure she wraps it up for you. 49 00:04:31,420 --> 00:04:36,840 you know you can wait another three weeks i'm sure or just it's an early christmas present just 50 00:04:36,840 --> 00:04:43,940 get it off the exchange it's bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten orange collab is the place for you to 51 00:04:43,940 --> 00:04:50,720 go and meet other bitcoiners except it's not because it's now called club orange yes they 52 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:56,540 have had a rebrand and there's almost 20 000 bitcoiners around the world on club orange i was 53 00:04:56,540 --> 00:05:02,920 just in New York for the event to launch the Smash Toshi History of Bitcoin book at PubKey 54 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:10,440 in New York. Thank you to PubKey, guys. And yeah, using that app is so damn cool. You can just flick 55 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:18,160 it open and find people, find events, find merchants, and soon there's going to be another 56 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:24,300 upgrade. But go and play around with the wallet. You can geo zap people. You can even now face zap. 57 00:05:24,300 --> 00:05:31,740 If you FaceTime someone within the Orange Collab chat system, you can tap on their face and you just send them a zap instantly. 58 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:33,180 It's just cool. 59 00:05:33,780 --> 00:05:34,880 Just because, right? 60 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,180 Just because you can do things. 61 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:38,620 Lastly, go check out Geyser Fund. 62 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:48,460 That's G-E-Y-S-E-R dot fund and what they are building over there for the Bitcoin crowdfunding space. 63 00:05:48,860 --> 00:05:50,620 This is what we need to see more of. 64 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,520 Thank you, Mick and the team over at Geyser. 65 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:59,560 okay guys let's get into this one with dave and danny all right lads danny dave good to have you 66 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:06,360 on the show long time long time we do need a long old catch-up we do yeah thank you dan 67 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,460 appreciate it has been a long time i think it was are we talking three years ago i think since last 68 00:06:10,460 --> 00:06:16,820 time i was on pod yeah probably maybe two i don't know been a long time well you guys have been busy 69 00:06:16,820 --> 00:06:17,700 with your own pod. 70 00:06:21,420 --> 00:06:22,080 Of course. 71 00:06:23,260 --> 00:06:24,940 Yeah, it's been, I mean, yeah, 72 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,260 we like doing that as a, in some sense, 73 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,460 a break away from the reality of the crazy life 74 00:06:31,460 --> 00:06:32,460 of running a Bitcoin exchange. 75 00:06:32,980 --> 00:06:34,700 So it's great, but it also gives us the opportunity 76 00:06:34,700 --> 00:06:36,500 to talk a little bit about Bitcoin 77 00:06:36,500 --> 00:06:38,540 and talk a little bit to the customer base, 78 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:39,300 which is always nice. 79 00:06:39,460 --> 00:06:39,860 So we seem to- 80 00:06:39,860 --> 00:06:42,160 Yeah, it lets us go through the news, doesn't it? 81 00:06:42,220 --> 00:06:44,700 And focus on what other people are doing as well. 82 00:06:44,700 --> 00:06:48,320 So it's a kind of like a, it's almost therapy rather than anything else. 83 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:49,340 Yeah. 84 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:55,160 So why don't we, for those people that aren't aware of who you are, Danny, 85 00:06:55,220 --> 00:07:00,300 why don't you introduce yourself and a quick overview of who Coin Corner are 86 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:02,100 on the exchange side of things. 87 00:07:02,100 --> 00:07:05,900 And then Dave, your involvement and your past as well. 88 00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:07,340 Yeah, sure. 89 00:07:07,900 --> 00:07:12,820 So myself, Danny Scott, CEO and co-founder of Coin Corner. 90 00:07:12,820 --> 00:07:16,660 and also Chief Bitcoin Officer for the HODL, 91 00:07:16,780 --> 00:07:17,940 which I'm sure we'll come on to shortly. 92 00:07:19,940 --> 00:07:22,160 I founded Coin Corner back in 2014 93 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,320 with a couple of other co-founders. 94 00:07:25,060 --> 00:07:27,880 We are a Bitcoin exchange focused primarily on the UK market. 95 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,100 We are open to a couple of other jurisdictions as well, 96 00:07:31,300 --> 00:07:33,460 but UK has always been a historic focus, 97 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:34,740 based here in the Isle of Man. 98 00:07:36,180 --> 00:07:37,640 We've grown out now, 99 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,180 the company or the exchange as a whole 100 00:07:40,180 --> 00:07:41,080 and the group as a whole 101 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,200 has grown out to quite a multitude of various companies. 102 00:07:45,220 --> 00:07:48,500 We've done things such as merchandise with the Bitcoin socks, 103 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:49,360 if you've ever seen them, 104 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,140 but more of an education play than a moneymaker. 105 00:07:54,820 --> 00:07:58,020 We've acquired a large stake in a UK EMI company, 106 00:07:58,420 --> 00:07:59,920 which was a year ago, 107 00:08:00,580 --> 00:08:03,080 which is Mercury FX, a company over there. 108 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,660 We have another couple of other subsidiaries. 109 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:08,560 We have an office in the UK 110 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,580 with a team now that's starting to build out. 111 00:08:10,580 --> 00:08:13,220 We have an office in Dubai with a team that's starting to build out. 112 00:08:14,100 --> 00:08:16,840 Majority is still here in the Isle of Man as our sort of HQ. 113 00:08:18,220 --> 00:08:22,600 We pretty much bootstrapped from day one towards about, I think, 114 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,820 about 400,000 customers now bootstrapped from day one. 115 00:08:25,940 --> 00:08:30,480 Didn't really take any venture capital funding until sort of the last couple 116 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,960 of years, which was due to the expansion in Dubai, which we touched on. 117 00:08:36,660 --> 00:08:39,340 The bootstrapping piece, I'm touching on that because I think that's 118 00:08:39,340 --> 00:08:44,620 an important part for us as Coin Corner and for the community of the industry within the UK is 119 00:08:44,620 --> 00:08:49,440 because we, by doing that, we've kind of had our freedom in our own hands a little bit and we've 120 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:54,600 been able to go in the direction that we see fit going forwards. We haven't been dragged into other 121 00:08:54,600 --> 00:09:00,520 directions over the years of the blockchain, the altcoins, the ICOs, the NFTs, everything that you 122 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:05,960 would have seen during every hype we've been through. So it's allowed us to focus on Bitcoin 123 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,620 and focus on the innovations around Bitcoin, being things like Lightning, 124 00:09:09,820 --> 00:09:11,700 which I'm sure we'll come on to shortly as well. 125 00:09:12,740 --> 00:09:15,440 And we have Dave. Sorry, I'll stop rambling on and pass to Dave. 126 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:17,380 Yeah, that was a ramble, wasn't it? 127 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,160 I'm Dave, the CFO of Coin Corner and the CFO of B-Hodl. 128 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,980 I've been at Coin Corner for nearly seven years, coming up to seven years. 129 00:09:27,540 --> 00:09:32,740 Been in finance itself for nearly 20, probably just 15, 20 years. 130 00:09:32,740 --> 00:09:42,820 And yeah, and a big Bitcoin advocate, been in Bitcoin for a while and just love the space, love the industry and love the very essence of what it can provide people. 131 00:09:42,820 --> 00:09:50,680 So and as Danny says, we've been on quite a big journey, been with Bitcoin for a while, building on Bitcoin and very much Bitcoin focused. 132 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:56,440 That's about it. Very plain, boring old accounts guy, unfortunately. 133 00:09:57,520 --> 00:09:58,700 Dave from accounts. 134 00:09:59,060 --> 00:10:00,720 Yeah, I remember you as. 135 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:05,220 It's just that miserable guy that tries to stop people spending money, basically. 136 00:10:05,220 --> 00:10:07,220 Having fun. 137 00:10:07,220 --> 00:10:08,220 Yeah. 138 00:10:08,220 --> 00:10:09,220 Stop them having fun. 139 00:10:09,220 --> 00:10:15,960 So, yeah, you co-host the BrickCoin podcast with Molly, obviously, who's head of marketing, 140 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,220 chief marketing officer for Coin Corner. 141 00:10:18,220 --> 00:10:33,313 Yeah and I known you guys for a great deal of time and always been impressed with what you delivered very very much Danny you not big enough like the bolt card Like that was a big thing back in the day on lightning 142 00:10:33,473 --> 00:10:36,233 You guys have been very forward thinking when it comes to lightning. 143 00:10:37,293 --> 00:10:39,813 Yeah. Thank you. You know, yeah, yeah, we've, we've been, 144 00:10:40,053 --> 00:10:43,433 as I touched on with the bootstrapping side and allowing us to sort of 145 00:10:43,433 --> 00:10:47,653 venture into these concepts and yeah, the bolt card being contactless, 146 00:10:47,653 --> 00:10:50,933 first contactless payments via Lightning in the industry. 147 00:10:51,133 --> 00:10:55,233 So that was pretty, in the sense of it was groundbreaking at the time, 148 00:10:55,333 --> 00:10:57,113 showing that what you could do with a Visa and MasterCard, 149 00:10:57,213 --> 00:10:59,093 you can effectively do with Bitcoin Lightning as well. 150 00:10:59,213 --> 00:11:01,073 It was hopefully an incredible concept, 151 00:11:01,253 --> 00:11:05,293 and it seems to have been taken, received well by the industry a few years ago. 152 00:11:05,693 --> 00:11:08,153 And it's nice that we are seeing that used and made use of 153 00:11:08,153 --> 00:11:09,893 in all sorts of countries around the world, 154 00:11:09,973 --> 00:11:12,693 the Africas, South Americas we're seeing, which is really, really good. 155 00:11:13,313 --> 00:11:15,313 And it shows that contactless payments can be done. 156 00:11:15,313 --> 00:11:21,653 um we have also done uh there was actually i think bitcoin magazine did a world record on it 157 00:11:21,653 --> 00:11:27,773 in vegas a couple of months ago um using the bulk card so they set a guinness world record i believe 158 00:11:27,773 --> 00:11:33,653 um for the most bulk card transactions in a 24-hour period um which we weren't even part of we 159 00:11:33,653 --> 00:11:39,073 completely um or we weren't there to attend um but a couple of the guys we know were all there 160 00:11:39,073 --> 00:11:39,993 and they joined in. 161 00:11:40,273 --> 00:11:41,713 So it was good to see from a distance that. 162 00:11:42,853 --> 00:11:46,493 We've done something called SendGlobally as well, 163 00:11:46,553 --> 00:11:48,213 which is, again, a bit of another proof of concept 164 00:11:48,213 --> 00:11:51,073 around sending cross-border payments using Lightning. 165 00:11:51,333 --> 00:11:54,833 So it allows someone from a Coin Corner customer, for example, 166 00:11:54,973 --> 00:11:58,213 that has pounds in their EMI account with us, 167 00:11:58,353 --> 00:11:59,153 which is like the equivalent. 168 00:11:59,313 --> 00:12:01,513 It's an electronic money institutional account, 169 00:12:01,853 --> 00:12:03,293 similar to what you'll see on like Revolut. 170 00:12:04,093 --> 00:12:08,013 And it allows it to send them pounds from the UK bank as such 171 00:12:08,013 --> 00:12:11,633 to then a bank in Philippines, for example. 172 00:12:12,173 --> 00:12:14,833 And that goes via Bitcoin Lightning in the background, 173 00:12:15,013 --> 00:12:17,713 but it goes from local currency in pounds 174 00:12:17,713 --> 00:12:19,853 to then local currency in the Philippines 175 00:12:19,853 --> 00:12:22,833 into almost a bank-to-bank situation. 176 00:12:23,313 --> 00:12:25,513 While in the background, it's using Bitcoin Lightning 177 00:12:25,513 --> 00:12:27,653 to make the transaction pretty much almost instantaneous 178 00:12:27,653 --> 00:12:30,673 with a very, very close FX rate. 179 00:12:30,673 --> 00:12:33,313 So it starts to compete with the Western Union 180 00:12:33,313 --> 00:12:34,413 and MoneyGrams, et cetera. 181 00:12:35,033 --> 00:12:36,953 So that's, again, another Lightning product 182 00:12:36,953 --> 00:12:41,553 we built out with quite a few participants in the industry being pouch you mentioned there strike 183 00:12:41,553 --> 00:12:49,793 bit knob neutron pay etc so yeah we've been heavily involved in lightning from pretty much 184 00:12:49,793 --> 00:12:54,713 day one of it big believers in that from a payment perspective as well so hopefully that will be 185 00:12:55,553 --> 00:13:02,273 a topic and a focus anyway on as we come on to be huddle shortly so i think it was miami 2022 186 00:13:02,273 --> 00:13:05,333 when I ran into you in person for the first time 187 00:13:05,333 --> 00:13:07,933 and you were handing out the bulk cards. 188 00:13:08,593 --> 00:13:11,373 And I found the other day, very serendipitous, 189 00:13:11,573 --> 00:13:13,913 I opened up this drawer and there it was, 190 00:13:14,053 --> 00:13:15,533 the bulk card that I got from you, 191 00:13:15,633 --> 00:13:17,713 that first one I got with the wizard on. 192 00:13:18,773 --> 00:13:21,693 And I think that you had to discontinue that, didn't you? 193 00:13:21,773 --> 00:13:25,073 We did, yeah, because we were the, 194 00:13:25,393 --> 00:13:28,053 I forgot his name now, but the guy who'd actually, 195 00:13:28,733 --> 00:13:29,713 you know, it's one of them things, 196 00:13:29,753 --> 00:13:31,653 it's a meme in the industry of the Bitcoin wizard 197 00:13:31,653 --> 00:13:32,733 and you just see the image. 198 00:13:32,853 --> 00:13:36,173 So we'd use that as one of the cards, as you say there. 199 00:13:36,493 --> 00:13:37,813 But the guy actually, unfortunately, 200 00:13:38,253 --> 00:13:40,153 was not happy with us using that, 201 00:13:40,273 --> 00:13:43,553 saying that he owned copyright to it. 202 00:13:43,973 --> 00:13:46,013 So we did originally say to him, 203 00:13:46,013 --> 00:13:49,953 he can happily receive any money we make on the back of these 204 00:13:49,953 --> 00:13:51,453 because it was never a moneymaker then, 205 00:13:51,573 --> 00:13:52,593 sort of thing, same as the socks. 206 00:13:53,313 --> 00:13:54,513 They were never moneymakers. 207 00:13:54,633 --> 00:13:55,893 They were purely just like education 208 00:13:55,893 --> 00:14:00,133 and sort of marketing tools for the Bitcoin education side. 209 00:14:00,133 --> 00:14:02,653 so yeah we had stopped selling them so you will have 210 00:14:02,653 --> 00:14:03,553 one there that 211 00:14:03,553 --> 00:14:05,833 is not available anymore 212 00:14:05,833 --> 00:14:08,073 same with the socks as well, the Bitcoin socks 213 00:14:08,073 --> 00:14:10,193 it was my favourite design as well 214 00:14:10,193 --> 00:14:11,753 it was such a shame 215 00:14:11,753 --> 00:14:14,253 big shame and now 216 00:14:14,253 --> 00:14:16,893 I hope he went after Taproot Wizards as well 217 00:14:16,893 --> 00:14:19,933 were they using the image as well? 218 00:14:20,673 --> 00:14:21,373 they do don't they 219 00:14:21,373 --> 00:14:23,613 I didn't think of that 220 00:14:23,613 --> 00:14:24,713 I don't know 221 00:14:24,713 --> 00:14:27,873 anyway yes 222 00:14:27,873 --> 00:14:30,053 and the first 223 00:14:30,053 --> 00:14:32,293 Bitcoin payment ever to be made 224 00:14:32,293 --> 00:14:34,373 I believe anywhere in the world 225 00:14:34,373 --> 00:14:35,873 with a pair of socks 226 00:14:35,873 --> 00:14:37,633 yeah 227 00:14:37,633 --> 00:14:40,253 that went viral 228 00:14:40,253 --> 00:14:41,093 for the wrong reasons 229 00:14:41,093 --> 00:14:42,553 yes it did 230 00:14:42,553 --> 00:14:45,833 Molly found foot Twitter by mistake 231 00:14:45,833 --> 00:14:46,433 yeah 232 00:14:46,433 --> 00:14:48,793 that was a deep rabbit hole 233 00:14:48,793 --> 00:14:50,273 you don't want to be part of it 234 00:14:50,273 --> 00:14:53,913 we need a new version of that 235 00:14:53,913 --> 00:14:55,133 I think that's been a while 236 00:14:55,133 --> 00:14:56,213 that was so long ago 237 00:14:56,213 --> 00:14:58,073 I think that was the biggest tweet 238 00:14:58,073 --> 00:15:04,793 anyone from point corner has ever had and it was yeah it was um molly paying with um bitcoin using 239 00:15:05,513 --> 00:15:11,113 an nfc tag basically within a sock um which was then like the bulk card equivalent but using a 240 00:15:11,113 --> 00:15:17,513 sock and paid in the shop uh in the isle of maum using her foot with the sock and tapping it on the 241 00:15:17,513 --> 00:15:25,193 the pos device and yeah as dan says there it went viral for um all the wrong reasons really 242 00:15:25,193 --> 00:15:28,493 all the things we've done 243 00:15:28,493 --> 00:15:30,613 all the amazing things we've built 244 00:15:30,613 --> 00:15:32,073 and it's a sock tweet 245 00:15:32,073 --> 00:15:33,773 that gets recognised 246 00:15:33,773 --> 00:15:35,973 it had millions of impressions as well 247 00:15:35,973 --> 00:15:38,673 it was crazy 248 00:15:38,673 --> 00:15:40,713 that's a poor reflection on the world 249 00:15:40,713 --> 00:15:41,653 if that's what's happening 250 00:15:41,653 --> 00:15:46,053 right 251 00:15:46,053 --> 00:15:48,073 get us up to before we talk about 252 00:15:48,073 --> 00:15:50,353 B-HODL what's going on in 253 00:15:50,353 --> 00:15:52,413 exchange world Dan because we just 254 00:15:52,413 --> 00:15:53,993 had an all time high 255 00:15:53,993 --> 00:16:01,993 so what happens behind the scenes at a bitcoin exchange when the price is pumping who wants to 256 00:16:01,993 --> 00:16:09,833 take that one i i've got an answer but mine's not exciting nothing nothing exciting it's been 257 00:16:09,833 --> 00:16:15,413 historically it was like especially like 2017 it was crazy the all-time high was like we were 258 00:16:15,413 --> 00:16:20,113 the influx of customers coming through the door was crazy it was like we couldn't deal with it it 259 00:16:20,113 --> 00:16:21,413 There were so many. 260 00:16:22,053 --> 00:16:25,273 Then in 2021, it was kind of a little bit less again. 261 00:16:25,553 --> 00:16:29,813 And then this time, it feels honestly like we've not really had retail here yet. 262 00:16:30,853 --> 00:16:33,013 And we're still institutional side. 263 00:16:33,413 --> 00:16:37,653 Businesses have been probably more pick up this cycle in terms of Bitcoin on the balance sheet for businesses. 264 00:16:38,053 --> 00:16:40,433 And we're seeing more of that at the minute from the Coin Corner side. 265 00:16:40,893 --> 00:16:45,453 But the retail audience is just not really here, from a new audience at least anyway. 266 00:16:45,953 --> 00:16:49,933 All the customers that have been Bitcoiners for many years, they are coming back in the more regular. 267 00:16:50,113 --> 00:16:54,313 when the price goes up, but new ones coming in, yeah, it's still lacking. 268 00:16:54,433 --> 00:16:56,813 So I don't think we've had that inflection point yet. 269 00:16:58,213 --> 00:17:03,253 You can probably see it on Google Trends as well in terms of people 270 00:17:03,253 --> 00:17:04,013 actually searching. 271 00:17:04,193 --> 00:17:08,453 It's just not hitting the same heights that it was at the last four runs. 272 00:17:08,593 --> 00:17:12,393 But obviously, as an exchange, we get more logins, a bit more attention. 273 00:17:12,773 --> 00:17:17,293 But for the retail audience, like Danny says, it's not there yet, 274 00:17:17,293 --> 00:17:20,513 probably because it's not making as much of a splash in terms of the media. 275 00:17:20,633 --> 00:17:23,433 There's a few news articles, but it's just not there. 276 00:17:24,793 --> 00:17:27,553 Retail's not here yet, I'd say, in terms of the all-time high 277 00:17:27,553 --> 00:17:29,413 and the attention we'd expect it to bring. 278 00:17:30,113 --> 00:17:33,793 Yeah, I'm not sure as well what actually brings retail back at this point. 279 00:17:35,453 --> 00:17:37,513 It's round numbers, isn't it, previously? 280 00:17:37,773 --> 00:17:42,593 Like where 100k we got, that was busy because that seemed like a milestone. 281 00:17:42,973 --> 00:17:45,853 But like an all-time high of 124 is a bit like, oh, it's 124. 282 00:17:45,853 --> 00:17:47,913 Or maybe like a 150, that's another. 283 00:17:48,353 --> 00:17:52,953 It's all psychological in terms of those sorts of investment thresholds, I would say. 284 00:17:53,473 --> 00:17:56,133 I'd expect probably a lot of activity at 150. 285 00:17:56,293 --> 00:17:57,533 Round numbers still count a lot. 286 00:17:58,053 --> 00:18:00,513 Yeah, I think just as well from a Coin Corner perspective, 287 00:18:01,273 --> 00:18:04,233 the exchange itself, Coin Corner, is actually doing still very well. 288 00:18:04,313 --> 00:18:09,293 And it's probably the biggest revenue year to date, I think, again, this year, won't it? 289 00:18:09,473 --> 00:18:09,833 I believe. 290 00:18:10,853 --> 00:18:14,193 Which is still a great thing because you've got all the older customers coming back. 291 00:18:14,193 --> 00:18:17,633 you've got the businesses putting bit on the balance sheet um we do a lot in the sort of 292 00:18:17,633 --> 00:18:23,973 payment sort of space as well now um but there's that retail audience still hasn't quite kicked 293 00:18:23,973 --> 00:18:29,393 back in um which is yeah a bit of interesting dynamic for uh this cycle at the moment yeah 294 00:18:29,393 --> 00:18:34,213 it's merchant growth has really exploded in the last couple of years that's that's really the 295 00:18:34,213 --> 00:18:39,553 takeaway in terms of what we're seeing as the exchange interesting so you've you've onboarded 296 00:18:39,553 --> 00:18:44,673 like more you know a high percentage of merchants over the last handful of years than 297 00:18:44,673 --> 00:18:51,553 than you would have expected or i would i would have still expected it it in terms of it's just 298 00:18:51,553 --> 00:18:57,293 happened as you would have you know it as bitcoin is becoming more everyday use it's becoming 299 00:18:57,293 --> 00:19:05,013 more familiar to people and and it would grow from if you're an individual holding bitcoin and 300 00:19:05,013 --> 00:19:09,513 then actually migrating that into your business that has become much more acceptable and that's 301 00:19:09,513 --> 00:19:13,053 probably what you're seeing in terms of the trend with treasury codes as well it's all kind of 302 00:19:13,053 --> 00:19:19,773 amalgamated into more merchants holding bitcoin and in terms of a treasury play for an actual 303 00:19:19,773 --> 00:19:24,953 merchant putting it on on their balance sheet this is like your sole traders your builders and people 304 00:19:24,953 --> 00:19:30,533 like that it's become actually a very viable option for them i think in terms of also how 305 00:19:30,533 --> 00:19:35,513 to how accessible that is to do as well it's not a niche product anymore to put on your balance 306 00:19:35,513 --> 00:19:40,193 sheet is actually quite an accessible thing and obviously we know in terms of fundamentals it's a 307 00:19:40,193 --> 00:19:46,493 great thing to have on your balance sheet and the other businesses we want to have in air quotes a 308 00:19:46,493 --> 00:19:52,813 bitcoin treasury uh you know balance sheet bitcoin treasury company your favorite pub restaurant cafe 309 00:19:52,813 --> 00:19:59,573 bar sole trader whatever it is um and that's another area where you guys were we're ahead of 310 00:19:59,573 --> 00:20:05,273 curve with that i think uh with the point of sale machines that uh you were very i i remember 311 00:20:05,273 --> 00:20:11,133 onboarding my my brother's cafe uh he had a couple of cafes and uh it's like well you just open a 312 00:20:11,133 --> 00:20:16,013 coin corner account business account they ship you the uh the point of sale machine we even had 313 00:20:16,013 --> 00:20:22,253 matt in uh in england at the time he come and set them all up in person this this was you know 314 00:20:22,253 --> 00:20:29,513 groundbreaking stuff and uh yeah pat yourselves on the back lads because you're doing the hard 315 00:20:29,513 --> 00:20:35,353 work here. Thank you. I think it's good. Obviously, it's very good that, obviously, you'll remember 316 00:20:35,353 --> 00:20:42,153 your experience, you have lived through that time period as well, which was great. So, a big part 317 00:20:42,153 --> 00:20:59,545 from obviously from Coin Corner perspective is making sure that it sustainable whatever we releasing the products and things as well are sustainable from a revenue perspective And we can see growth in that particular product going forwards One of the unfortunate sides of Bitcoin in the minute is people were still not willing to necessarily spend it 318 00:20:59,585 --> 00:21:02,985 I think was a big part of that. And there was a couple of reasons. 319 00:21:02,985 --> 00:21:07,805 One was they're not willing to spend it and they want to hold on to the Bitcoin, which, you know, you can spend and replenish. 320 00:21:08,245 --> 00:21:13,045 And that's an option, of course. The other problem was it was almost like difficult. 321 00:21:13,045 --> 00:21:16,565 it wasn't difficult to pay with lightning because it's it's very simple now and it is quick and easy 322 00:21:16,565 --> 00:21:22,385 but it was difficult to like you go into a shop and they say accept bitcoin and you say okay can 323 00:21:22,385 --> 00:21:26,565 i pay in bitcoin and then half of the time they they're pulling out a different pos device they're 324 00:21:27,365 --> 00:21:31,565 trying to load it up are the staff trained on it if it's like a bigger bigger shop then the staff 325 00:21:31,565 --> 00:21:35,245 needs to be trained on it it's it's difficult it is actually difficult to maintain something going 326 00:21:35,245 --> 00:21:39,925 forwards where it's not integrated into the current system um that they're used to being like 327 00:21:39,925 --> 00:21:45,325 the fiat visa mastercard payments so what we actually turned a bit more of a focus to um after 328 00:21:45,325 --> 00:21:50,285 that sort of influx of interest from businesses is integrating into more the tradfi sort of 329 00:21:50,865 --> 00:21:56,665 pos device companies so its lolly was one i don't know if you saw them what we did a common uh 330 00:21:56,665 --> 00:22:02,225 partnership with its lolly um so any devices that they have now then you can then use bitcoin via 331 00:22:02,225 --> 00:22:06,665 that and they actually they're incredibly nice really nice big touchscreen um sort of almost 332 00:22:06,665 --> 00:22:12,225 like you'd see in a mcdonald's for example in touch self-service touch screen side and you can 333 00:22:12,225 --> 00:22:15,105 go through you can make your order and then you just pick right you want to pay in bitcoin and 334 00:22:15,105 --> 00:22:20,505 it's all automated so you can then just pay so that makes it a lot more seamless and they are 335 00:22:20,505 --> 00:22:26,105 only just rolling that out properly now to to more merchants so it's it's taken unfortunately 336 00:22:26,105 --> 00:22:30,385 these things do take a bit of time and it took a couple of years really to get integrated properly 337 00:22:30,385 --> 00:22:36,365 and ready to roll out on a system like that but now it does look very good it's it's very very 338 00:22:36,365 --> 00:22:41,025 user-friendly and hopefully that will start to attract more people making use of it. 339 00:22:42,045 --> 00:22:48,505 Right. One last boring question, but it's important because it's the regulatory landscape. 340 00:22:49,545 --> 00:22:56,205 Obviously now you're UK, so Brexit means Brexit. They've got their own set of rules. They've got 341 00:22:56,205 --> 00:23:03,165 the Mika license, which is proving to be, from what I hear, not one, just ridiculously costly. 342 00:23:03,165 --> 00:23:09,905 I think you're upwards of 200 to quarter of a million euros, 200,000 to quarter of a million euros. 343 00:23:10,545 --> 00:23:15,385 The paperwork is as you'd expect it to be, you know, size of a doorstep. 344 00:23:15,625 --> 00:23:20,205 It gets sent back. It gets, you know, changed again. 345 00:23:20,585 --> 00:23:22,145 You've got to change it. Then you send it back. 346 00:23:22,205 --> 00:23:25,125 It gets sent back again because it hits someone else's desk and they pick it. 347 00:23:25,485 --> 00:23:29,005 It's an absolute nightmare. It's taking so long. 348 00:23:29,005 --> 00:23:36,445 and in the classic way that these things work you have like this these bureaucracies that exist to 349 00:23:36,445 --> 00:23:41,605 ensure that no monopolies exist at the same time what they're doing is creating monopolies because 350 00:23:41,605 --> 00:23:47,225 there's only a few companies that can afford to do this not just with time but with investment 351 00:23:47,225 --> 00:23:55,625 so what's the regulatory landscape now in one the isle of man and to the uk at large what what's 352 00:23:55,625 --> 00:24:02,885 on your radar what's been difficult and yeah who wants to take that one um yeah i can jump i guess 353 00:24:02,885 --> 00:24:08,705 i'm i'm closest to that um from what we're doing but you are completely right it is unfortunately 354 00:24:08,705 --> 00:24:14,965 um companies the cost is is becoming crazy like we're not we're not just going through so we've 355 00:24:14,965 --> 00:24:22,605 got um the allemand side has been we've been under the fsa now for uh since 2016 so nearly 356 00:24:22,605 --> 00:24:28,245 nine years, I think it is now. So we've already, so historically, we've built up sort of the KYC 357 00:24:28,245 --> 00:24:33,445 obligation side of things from, well, almost from day one, to be honest, but we were formally under 358 00:24:33,445 --> 00:24:39,105 the obligation in 2016. That kind of meant we were, the Alaman was one of the first countries 359 00:24:39,105 --> 00:24:43,645 in the world to do that. And we were a little bit ahead of the curve. So we were there when the UK 360 00:24:43,645 --> 00:24:48,005 started introducing it as a crypto register. And when Europe started introducing things under VASPs, 361 00:24:48,005 --> 00:24:53,425 it became we were there we kind of had the policies and procedures in place we had the 362 00:24:53,425 --> 00:24:58,245 operational procedures in place it made it a little bit easier for us in some some respects 363 00:24:58,245 --> 00:25:07,145 so we had a little bit of a competitive advantage over probably the sort of 2020 to 2023 times where 364 00:25:07,145 --> 00:25:13,625 people were just catching up and playing catch up with the regs however now like you're saying 365 00:25:13,625 --> 00:25:20,185 there with mica and europe and things like yeah they are exactly what you're saying that they're 366 00:25:20,185 --> 00:25:26,985 trying to be polite um in the nicest of ways with it but it is an absolute headache it's massively 367 00:25:26,985 --> 00:25:33,565 costly it's very very time consuming um we've been going through the dubai the uae one uh which is 368 00:25:33,565 --> 00:25:38,245 under vara so we've got the office there um and we have the going through the regulatory overhead 369 00:25:38,245 --> 00:25:44,345 there and the oversight sorry and that they're very good the regulator there has been incredibly 370 00:25:44,345 --> 00:25:49,805 helpful responsive and reactive to everything the questions but exactly like you say you put 371 00:25:49,805 --> 00:25:54,585 submit the application they go through it they find tooth comb they find certain things highlight 372 00:25:54,585 --> 00:26:00,085 things they come back to you you correct them you go back again somebody different picks up 373 00:26:00,085 --> 00:26:04,085 this time picks up your application runs through it again find something different the first person 374 00:26:04,085 --> 00:26:09,225 didn't spot and then you're back and it is almost it feels like a never-ending uh loop and you have 375 00:26:09,225 --> 00:26:16,625 to keep going through over and over again with this um so it is painfully slow it is costly 376 00:26:16,625 --> 00:26:22,065 it's definitely putting a barrier to entry to a lot of the smaller startups um massively so and 377 00:26:22,065 --> 00:26:26,245 you are right it will create this consolidation where you could potentially end up with more 378 00:26:26,245 --> 00:26:30,585 monopolies in certain jurisdictions because other people are just not willing to go through that 379 00:26:30,585 --> 00:26:37,205 overhead and the burden to get these things over the line. Europe's kind of nice. You've got Mika 380 00:26:37,205 --> 00:26:41,665 and you've got lots of countries in that. UK is its own. So it's, again, smaller jurisdiction in 381 00:26:41,665 --> 00:26:48,445 comparison to Europe as a whole. And people are, we are seeing people drop out. I think the 382 00:26:48,445 --> 00:26:53,085 applications going through the UK at the minute are becoming less and less and less. They are 383 00:26:53,085 --> 00:26:58,965 looking to introduce more full regulatory oversight in the coming years, which will then again create 384 00:26:58,965 --> 00:27:00,565 an even bigger barrier to entry again. 385 00:27:02,305 --> 00:27:04,665 A lot of these countries, I feel like, 386 00:27:04,705 --> 00:27:07,905 there's definitely been a knee-jerk reaction to crypto, 387 00:27:08,085 --> 00:27:10,285 should call it, not Bitcoin. 388 00:27:10,505 --> 00:27:11,885 It was a knee-jerk reaction to crypto, 389 00:27:11,885 --> 00:27:15,565 and that then created the panic as such 390 00:27:15,565 --> 00:27:18,065 with creating these regs and how they scoped them out 391 00:27:18,065 --> 00:27:19,925 and what they did, and that's then created 392 00:27:19,925 --> 00:27:24,145 probably too much of an oversight over a lot of this. 393 00:27:24,545 --> 00:27:27,065 And even in comparison to banking and things like that, 394 00:27:27,065 --> 00:27:31,745 you know we're almost parallel to what a bank would if you go sign up with coin corner good 395 00:27:31,745 --> 00:27:36,925 way to explain that go sign up with coin corner and the process and all the quizzes the questionnaires 396 00:27:36,925 --> 00:27:41,465 all the questions we have to ask from a legal perspective now from a regulatory stance is 397 00:27:41,465 --> 00:27:47,925 absolutely nuts and then you go and sign up to something like etoro or um one of the trading 398 00:27:47,925 --> 00:27:52,205 platforms and it's barely anything in comparison to this and even going and signing up at a bank 399 00:27:52,205 --> 00:27:55,265 like, you know, go and sign up with Revolut or Monzo and things like that. 400 00:27:55,885 --> 00:27:58,885 It's nowhere near as difficult as it is now to a Bitcoin exchange, 401 00:27:59,385 --> 00:28:01,665 which is crazy when the banks are fully regulated 402 00:28:01,665 --> 00:28:04,625 and the crypto register in the UK is just a registration. 403 00:28:04,825 --> 00:28:05,465 It's not regulation. 404 00:28:06,045 --> 00:28:07,705 It's meant to just be an oversight for AML, 405 00:28:07,905 --> 00:28:14,325 but it's encompassed all of these barriers to entry for consumers into it, 406 00:28:14,385 --> 00:28:18,265 which I get the concept and why they went the theory around it 407 00:28:18,265 --> 00:28:19,385 of protecting them from crypto. 408 00:28:19,385 --> 00:28:23,725 but when you're a bitcoin only exchange like coin corner it's a little bit frustrating 409 00:28:23,725 --> 00:28:29,045 yeah i think that's an important piece as well that they do they do the regulatory oversight 410 00:28:29,045 --> 00:28:35,185 doesn't separate out bitcoin and crypto so it's all just under one very big sweeping crypto 411 00:28:35,185 --> 00:28:42,065 statement which we all know is you know a bit quite a falsehood and quite annoying one as well 412 00:28:42,065 --> 00:28:46,025 because it's always referred to as crypto so we're always saying actually this is completely separate 413 00:28:46,025 --> 00:28:56,305 And I suppose the regulators are probably, although ours have been very helpful, guilty of sometimes like shoehorning trad fi regs into this new space. 414 00:28:56,305 --> 00:29:00,265 And it can be quite inhibiting in terms of growth of the industry. 415 00:29:00,625 --> 00:29:09,165 I think it's probably what you'll see in the UK is it's actually quite, you know, a stunter of growth in what should be a new industry, a burgeoning industry. 416 00:29:09,165 --> 00:29:12,445 And it's actually been held back a little bit, which is a shame. 417 00:29:12,445 --> 00:29:16,305 but it's always quite hard to get that balance between protecting people and, 418 00:29:16,305 --> 00:29:21,065 you know, allowing a sector to grow, I suppose. 419 00:29:22,345 --> 00:29:26,585 Yeah. Are you allowed to advertise again? Because that changed. 420 00:29:26,865 --> 00:29:29,785 I don't know that. What's the latest on that? 421 00:29:30,365 --> 00:29:35,065 You can advertise, but everything has to be, 422 00:29:35,145 --> 00:29:37,805 it's like a financial promotion and you then have to have it. 423 00:29:37,805 --> 00:29:41,765 Every single financial promotion would need to be vetted by a regulated entity 424 00:29:41,765 --> 00:29:48,665 in the uk and then it becomes very restrictive in what you can do so like pure brand with nothing 425 00:29:48,665 --> 00:29:52,665 else is kind of the simplest one that people do and that's why you'll see a lot of them now 426 00:29:52,665 --> 00:29:56,885 um sponsoring like the football teams for example i think like is it kraken i've got one and a 427 00:29:56,885 --> 00:30:00,285 couple of the guys and they're just sponsoring football team with just their logo on and that's 428 00:30:00,285 --> 00:30:04,305 it because you can do that without needing financial promotion issues or not getting 429 00:30:04,305 --> 00:30:09,905 slapped by the fca so it's quite a simple one to do um if you as soon as you say anything about you 430 00:30:09,905 --> 00:30:14,845 buying bitcoin or doing anything or crypto or anything that where you can a product that might 431 00:30:14,845 --> 00:30:20,525 be an acquisition of crypto um regardless of what that product is or looks like then it falls under 432 00:30:20,525 --> 00:30:24,245 the financial promotions and then you've got to be careful then that's when the rules catch you and 433 00:30:24,245 --> 00:30:30,665 it's kind of a you can't say we even had things like um the fca going through the website and 434 00:30:30,665 --> 00:30:35,445 making sure we weren't saying things like we couldn't use the word easy or quick or anything 435 00:30:35,445 --> 00:30:41,185 like that so you couldn't say this is a quick way to buy bitcoin because it's being perceived as like 436 00:30:41,185 --> 00:30:46,165 this it is quick and it's kind of fomo and driving you into it um so you can kind of understand where 437 00:30:46,165 --> 00:30:50,425 they're coming from with these points but it creates massive problems via companies like us 438 00:30:50,425 --> 00:30:55,605 of how we can advertise and how we can't and most of that is because it's classified under the 439 00:30:55,605 --> 00:31:00,905 crypto sorry is classified under the restrictive mass market investment now which there's only 440 00:31:00,905 --> 00:31:06,005 I think one other thing, which is crowdfunding, is also under restricted mass market investment, 441 00:31:06,005 --> 00:31:21,378 which is the likes of like Cedars a couple of other companies that do crowdfunding for the startups And they just as Dave said their shoehorned crypto into that which has all these crazy regs around it So hopefully that will get taken away in the future and they simplify it a little bit 442 00:31:21,818 --> 00:31:24,998 But until, I believe, until the full regs come in, 443 00:31:25,098 --> 00:31:27,158 I don't think we'll see anything, any movement on that. 444 00:31:28,318 --> 00:31:30,418 Oh, it's so frustrating, mate, 445 00:31:30,618 --> 00:31:34,238 because you see it everywhere, all over like the sport. 446 00:31:35,598 --> 00:31:39,058 If you watch your bread and circuses during the adverts, 447 00:31:39,058 --> 00:31:44,778 obviously you're going to get you know you bet 365 or whatever like you know download an app today 448 00:31:44,778 --> 00:31:49,638 you'll get a free five pounds you can start gambling your tits off on absolutely anything 449 00:31:49,638 --> 00:31:55,858 you know it's just and that's all fine no problem and if you haven't got that you've got a banking 450 00:31:55,858 --> 00:32:02,238 ad from hsbc probably the biggest criminal organization known to man or lloyd's bank 451 00:32:02,238 --> 00:32:09,038 offering small to medium-sized enterprises loans which they print out of thin air and then charge 452 00:32:09,038 --> 00:32:15,118 you use serious interest on and that's all fine too but no we can't have you guys being exposed 453 00:32:15,118 --> 00:32:22,298 to any kind of uh hard money that might lift you out of your gambling addiction and debt no no no 454 00:32:22,958 --> 00:32:28,698 it is crazy like i honestly don't know what to say because it is just crazy it makes no sense 455 00:32:28,698 --> 00:32:35,098 it really doesn't um and i don't know what regulators around the world would say in response 456 00:32:35,098 --> 00:32:39,838 of that and maybe they'd say you know you're comparing apples and oranges in some ways but 457 00:32:39,838 --> 00:32:46,338 you are completely right it is how can i just go and gamble and have no questions asked a thousand 458 00:32:46,338 --> 00:32:51,458 pounds on on red on a roulette and nobody would ask a question um yeah i can't go and put a thousand 459 00:32:51,458 --> 00:32:57,718 pounds into bitcoin because my bank's blocking me because of x y and z regulation and um yeah the 460 00:32:57,718 --> 00:33:02,978 amount of people we still have problem moving money from the banking system into bitcoin exchanges 461 00:33:02,978 --> 00:33:09,718 it's it's chaos it really is it is incredibly frustrating and i think we are all very frustrated 462 00:33:09,718 --> 00:33:14,078 in terms of the coin corner staff because we all share the same the same problem i suppose 463 00:33:14,078 --> 00:33:19,358 even the the 24-hour cool off that they brought in they like you don't need that in gambling as 464 00:33:19,358 --> 00:33:24,638 far as i'm aware so you can actually sign up and just gamble instantly 24-hour cool off so what 465 00:33:24,638 --> 00:33:32,958 so if i send over like 5 000 pounds successfully to a coin corner account i can't access that 466 00:33:32,958 --> 00:33:39,598 for another 24 hours is that if you if you're if you sign up you have to then have a 24-hour cool 467 00:33:39,598 --> 00:33:46,018 cool down before you could buy yeah so it's only after sign up yeah only on the initial sign up so 468 00:33:46,018 --> 00:33:50,558 once you sign up 24 hours after that you can't send us money or do anything until that point 469 00:33:50,558 --> 00:33:56,498 go off son drop a knee go and actually think about it you know basically that's what they're saying 470 00:33:56,498 --> 00:34:00,698 isn't it like this guy must be crazy is he trying to buy bitcoin he'll have to have a feel after 471 00:34:00,698 --> 00:34:02,238 chill out for 24 hours. 472 00:34:02,678 --> 00:34:04,818 How they brought that into this and didn't 473 00:34:04,818 --> 00:34:06,458 bring that into gambling, like you're saying, is crazy. 474 00:34:06,838 --> 00:34:08,878 I have to double check. I'm not a 475 00:34:08,878 --> 00:34:10,838 gambler, so I don't... I'm a 476 00:34:10,838 --> 00:34:12,858 Bitcoiner, so I actually don't know 477 00:34:12,858 --> 00:34:14,618 if they do have it in gambling. 478 00:34:15,298 --> 00:34:16,418 I'm not aware of it. 479 00:34:16,818 --> 00:34:18,938 No. And I find 480 00:34:18,938 --> 00:34:20,298 it amusing that people use 481 00:34:20,298 --> 00:34:22,598 Bitcoin to gamble with. 482 00:34:23,758 --> 00:34:24,318 Like, you know, 483 00:34:24,398 --> 00:34:25,458 what are you doing? 484 00:34:29,098 --> 00:34:30,358 Anyway, whatever. 485 00:34:30,698 --> 00:34:34,398 I just thought of something else there that crossed my mind. 486 00:34:34,618 --> 00:34:35,518 What were we talking about? 487 00:34:35,638 --> 00:34:36,438 Getting money across? 488 00:34:36,578 --> 00:34:38,838 Yes, the questionnaires that they bought in. 489 00:34:40,258 --> 00:34:42,738 I remember actually, Freddie should have been on this call 490 00:34:42,738 --> 00:34:44,738 because of his involvement in B-HODL, 491 00:34:44,838 --> 00:34:48,478 but Bitcoin policy when he was keeping a very close eye 492 00:34:48,478 --> 00:34:49,418 on these questionnaires. 493 00:34:50,078 --> 00:34:51,658 And I only did a few. 494 00:34:51,798 --> 00:34:53,498 I think I did your one, obviously, 495 00:34:53,618 --> 00:34:55,818 and I think I did like a Revolut one maybe. 496 00:34:56,238 --> 00:34:57,558 And I kept failing them. 497 00:34:57,558 --> 00:35:01,518 I kept failing them because I knew the answers 498 00:35:01,518 --> 00:35:07,758 there's some questions on there that yeah as a Bitcoiner 499 00:35:07,758 --> 00:35:11,638 you would be saying one answer but obviously the answer the 500 00:35:11,638 --> 00:35:15,218 FCA are looking for is something slightly different and yeah 501 00:35:15,218 --> 00:35:19,598 the funny thing is probably most of the people are failing that 502 00:35:19,598 --> 00:35:23,718 are proper Bitcoiners that have been there for years and they're answering similar to what you're saying there 503 00:35:23,718 --> 00:35:30,178 which is according to FCA technically not the right answer unfortunately but yeah it's the 504 00:35:30,178 --> 00:35:34,598 quiz is yeah it's it's been a again it's another barrier to entry and you know everything we're 505 00:35:34,598 --> 00:35:39,018 talking through here just to register with a company like ourselves and buy bitcoin you've 506 00:35:39,018 --> 00:35:43,618 got the banking issues to start with you've got all of the information we have to collect on you 507 00:35:43,618 --> 00:35:48,438 from the get-go you've obviously then got the 24-hour cool down you've then got this quiz as 508 00:35:48,438 --> 00:35:53,978 well to prove that you're um a sophisticated investor should we call it um in terms of knowing 509 00:35:53,978 --> 00:35:59,078 the bitcoin knowledge um it's just yeah it is incredible the amount and there isn't really any 510 00:35:59,078 --> 00:36:04,078 other industry that this compares to at the minute in terms of do you think do you think there'll be 511 00:36:04,078 --> 00:36:09,998 a time where they actually climb back in terms of deregulate slightly do you think it'll look 512 00:36:09,998 --> 00:36:14,078 because i don't know of an industry where they've done that in terms of actually they've gone this 513 00:36:14,078 --> 00:36:21,858 is too restrictive we need to actually maybe free up or do do less of that or climb but unless it 514 00:36:21,858 --> 00:36:30,038 gets the like section does something else i'm not sure no i think yeah once the the new regs um so 515 00:36:30,038 --> 00:36:34,778 the full regulation comes in in the uk then potentially they'll change like at least maybe 516 00:36:34,778 --> 00:36:37,978 the markings it won't be maybe it won't be a restrictive mass market investment and it'll be 517 00:36:37,978 --> 00:36:43,698 something different which will then give us some different set of rules um and yeah the quiz and 518 00:36:43,698 --> 00:36:48,178 things like that i honestly don't know but you're right yeah normally these the regulators don't 519 00:36:48,178 --> 00:36:52,618 pull back as far as i'm aware they'll just keep adding and adding onto it as opposed to pulling 520 00:36:52,618 --> 00:36:56,298 back but i'm hoping because of the way this happened and everything happened so quick they 521 00:36:56,298 --> 00:37:01,858 had to do that knee-jerk reaction and put something in place they know that they went in a little bit 522 00:37:01,858 --> 00:37:07,438 too heavy and hopefully they will learn and pull back from that but in banking you got a lot of 523 00:37:07,438 --> 00:37:12,438 reaction after 08 right so the regulations really kicked there was huge heightened regulations 524 00:37:12,438 --> 00:37:14,818 because they had actually a period of deregulations. 525 00:37:15,478 --> 00:37:18,098 What do you think kicked it off in terms of Bitcoin? 526 00:37:18,838 --> 00:37:20,578 What made them think? 527 00:37:20,798 --> 00:37:22,058 Do you think it was just adoption? 528 00:37:22,478 --> 00:37:24,618 Do you think they saw the growing market 529 00:37:24,618 --> 00:37:27,438 and actually saw the amount of people getting involved with it 530 00:37:27,438 --> 00:37:29,118 and thought we have to play this further? 531 00:37:29,898 --> 00:37:31,738 A combination of the cycles, I would say, 532 00:37:31,818 --> 00:37:33,538 in the sense of the bull and bear. 533 00:37:33,718 --> 00:37:35,558 So after the bull and everyone piles in 534 00:37:35,558 --> 00:37:37,938 and then the bear kicks in and for whatever reason, 535 00:37:37,998 --> 00:37:39,418 each cycle has been a different trigger point, 536 00:37:39,418 --> 00:37:44,738 being even the likes of the FTX and them sort of ones where we had collapses. 537 00:37:44,978 --> 00:37:48,098 And I think each time we've seen that, we've seen that from CoinCorner perspective, 538 00:37:48,098 --> 00:37:53,058 every time there's a collapse from a bull market and it's migrating into a bear market, 539 00:37:53,618 --> 00:37:59,838 we see all the negative press, all the negative reactions from regulators, from banks, from everyone. 540 00:38:00,258 --> 00:38:01,698 And then we have to then take that time. 541 00:38:02,038 --> 00:38:05,838 We have another year or two of then educating and pulling people back around 542 00:38:05,838 --> 00:38:08,978 and trying to talk, explaining what's the difference between Bitcoin and crypto 543 00:38:08,978 --> 00:38:12,278 and why it's not an ICO and all these things. 544 00:38:12,418 --> 00:38:15,098 So you kind of, it feels like that's the same thing. 545 00:38:15,138 --> 00:38:16,738 And this is going to be now like the fourth time 546 00:38:16,738 --> 00:38:18,658 I think we'll have potentially experienced that. 547 00:38:19,858 --> 00:38:22,398 You're right, actually, because the news stories you get 548 00:38:22,398 --> 00:38:26,318 is that this grandma lost her money on Bitcoin 549 00:38:26,318 --> 00:38:28,798 and she shouldn't have been getting involved with Bitcoin. 550 00:38:28,918 --> 00:38:30,058 Then you see heightened regulations, 551 00:38:30,238 --> 00:38:33,958 but they very rarely report the amount of people 552 00:38:33,958 --> 00:38:35,718 that have been really successful 553 00:38:35,718 --> 00:38:37,658 and actually build up a saving pot 554 00:38:37,658 --> 00:38:39,438 by slowly accumulating Bitcoin. 555 00:38:39,618 --> 00:38:41,038 It's just not a news story, is it? 556 00:38:41,298 --> 00:38:42,078 It's not fun. 557 00:38:42,218 --> 00:38:45,198 That would be the majority of people. 558 00:38:45,458 --> 00:38:47,318 That would be the pattern of behavior for most people, 559 00:38:47,418 --> 00:38:49,278 but it's not newsworthy. 560 00:38:50,358 --> 00:38:52,558 Yeah, you've got, like you said, Dan, 561 00:38:52,558 --> 00:38:59,218 you've got the problem of FTX failing, Celsius, Gemini, BlogFi, 562 00:39:00,638 --> 00:39:05,818 Zingle now, no, Zygloo, is that Zygloo in the UK? 563 00:39:05,818 --> 00:39:13,918 and it's all crypto stuff every single time it's crypto stuff but dressed up as um you know it's 564 00:39:13,918 --> 00:39:20,918 it's all part of the bitcoin ecosystem uh yeah and these bad actors end up um taking down 565 00:39:20,918 --> 00:39:28,118 millions if not billions of dollars worth of value of people's holdings and savings and yeah so 566 00:39:28,118 --> 00:39:35,298 you know to play devil's advocate you can see why you know somebody that is a in in the business of 567 00:39:35,298 --> 00:39:39,438 regulating and they're watching these things happen in front of their eyes and they can't 568 00:39:39,438 --> 00:39:43,058 figure out what or how and it's their job to stop it. 569 00:39:44,678 --> 00:39:47,298 Yeah, the knee-jerk reaction. That's what it is. 570 00:39:47,758 --> 00:39:51,258 That's the crazy thing. You've just touched on it there in terms of it's bad actors as 571 00:39:51,258 --> 00:39:55,158 opposed to Bitcoin. It's nothing to do with Bitcoin most of the time. It's not 572 00:39:55,158 --> 00:39:59,118 Bitcoin's dead as the media portrays and things like that. 573 00:39:59,118 --> 00:40:03,238 It ends up being a bad actor that has an impact on the 574 00:40:03,238 --> 00:40:06,498 industry as a whole and that drags everything down with it and everything then bitcoin gets 575 00:40:06,498 --> 00:40:11,138 encompassed within this crypto and um like ftx it was a bad actor at the end of the day of what 576 00:40:11,138 --> 00:40:16,518 happened there um and you know that goes for every industry out there not just bitcoin so 577 00:40:16,518 --> 00:40:21,578 um unfortunately yeah it's always going to play out but i think you touched on it earlier on in 578 00:40:21,578 --> 00:40:25,798 terms of the short it's short term or short-sighted versus the long-sighted and hopefully we can 579 00:40:25,798 --> 00:40:30,758 stick to bitcoin and keep plowing away and long term it will come back around eventually 580 00:40:30,758 --> 00:40:39,418 Well, big crashes, a beautiful segue into Bitcoin treasury companies and what we're going to talk about today. 581 00:40:40,918 --> 00:40:43,878 You and I had spoken before a couple of months ago now. 582 00:40:43,998 --> 00:40:49,478 I can't remember exactly when, when this started coming out and, you know, texting each other. 583 00:40:49,538 --> 00:40:52,598 And I'm like, Dan, this just looks shockingly bad. 584 00:40:52,758 --> 00:40:55,878 All of this stuff. A lot of people are going to get wrecked. 585 00:40:55,878 --> 00:41:00,798 And I can't, I just can't see the end game. 586 00:41:01,338 --> 00:41:03,418 It doesn't make any sense. 587 00:41:03,418 --> 00:41:16,298 And like this narrative of bridges are being built between like the fiat system to get trapped fiat into Bitcoin because, you know, the need and the hunger is there. 588 00:41:17,018 --> 00:41:20,118 I found that to be a misleading narrative. 589 00:41:20,578 --> 00:41:24,458 The only people that truly are wanting to do that are Bitcoiners. 590 00:41:24,458 --> 00:41:27,478 it's certainly not just mom and pop retail. 591 00:41:27,718 --> 00:41:29,118 And like you've just explained earlier, 592 00:41:29,238 --> 00:41:31,318 like retail isn't even here yet in spot Bitcoin, 593 00:41:31,498 --> 00:41:33,798 let alone buying penny stocks 594 00:41:33,798 --> 00:41:36,458 of companies they've never heard of before, 595 00:41:36,458 --> 00:41:39,938 run by CEOs they have no idea they are. 596 00:41:39,971 --> 00:41:46,671 And then you have this more, you know, they pile the narrative on, you know, it's institutional investment. 597 00:41:47,031 --> 00:41:48,771 You know, this is going to change the game. 598 00:41:48,891 --> 00:41:50,651 It's like, no, it's not. 599 00:41:50,711 --> 00:41:55,191 Because, you know, institutional investors can't buy penny stocks. 600 00:41:55,751 --> 00:41:59,671 It has to have a certain market cap before it's even considered. 601 00:41:59,671 --> 00:42:06,251 And then it's still got to have the, you know, the green light by the board once you've sat around and had the discussion with them. 602 00:42:06,891 --> 00:42:09,551 There is not a pent up demand. 603 00:42:09,971 --> 00:42:18,211 that I can see the demand is Bitcoin as retail pensions. 604 00:42:18,211 --> 00:42:19,731 They're, they're, they're SIPs. 605 00:42:19,731 --> 00:42:21,051 If you're in the U in the UK, 606 00:42:21,051 --> 00:42:25,291 or maybe they're 401s within the U S or superannuation, Australia, 607 00:42:25,371 --> 00:42:29,011 wherever you are and you've got money, you want Bitcoin exposure, 608 00:42:29,011 --> 00:42:31,691 but you can't buy a spot Bitcoin and self custody. 609 00:42:32,211 --> 00:42:36,571 So you've been buying micro strategy or maybe buying Ibit or whatever else. 610 00:42:36,571 --> 00:42:39,891 and now you can buy a Bitcoin treasury company 611 00:42:39,891 --> 00:42:41,051 that sprung up out of nowhere. 612 00:42:41,791 --> 00:42:42,811 Makes no sense to me. 613 00:42:43,371 --> 00:42:44,651 But then you guys go and start one 614 00:42:44,651 --> 00:42:46,671 and I'm thinking, well, what the fuck's going on? 615 00:42:50,911 --> 00:42:52,871 I mean, there's a lot to break down there. 616 00:42:53,091 --> 00:42:56,511 And yeah, there's a lot of, I think, shared thoughts on, 617 00:42:56,911 --> 00:42:58,891 I think, I mean, I said this on one of the, 618 00:42:59,111 --> 00:43:01,151 I remember back on one of the Britcoiners episodes 619 00:43:01,151 --> 00:43:03,051 and we were talking around treasury companies. 620 00:43:03,191 --> 00:43:05,271 It might have been started this year 621 00:43:05,271 --> 00:43:06,211 or maybe even earlier. 622 00:43:06,571 --> 00:43:14,011 And we were talking around, you know, will the collapse of one of these treasury companies be a bit of a trigger point for the industry and see where we're at? 623 00:43:14,151 --> 00:43:25,291 And I think one of the things we was talking around was not necessarily like your micro strategies and things like that, because they are of scale now that I don't think there's too big of an issue around a collapse of someone like micro strategy. 624 00:43:25,651 --> 00:43:29,831 But I believe that the treasury companies would slowly, originally it was kind of just Bitcoin. 625 00:43:29,991 --> 00:43:34,751 And we already are now starting to see the pivot from not just Bitcoin to there's an Ethereum one. 626 00:43:34,751 --> 00:43:36,851 I think there's a Solana one as well coming. 627 00:43:37,751 --> 00:43:40,651 There's one that, there's a couple I think I've seen that just do all sorts of crypto. 628 00:43:41,711 --> 00:43:46,451 And of course, at some point, yeah, these ones are going to, there's going to be collapses within these. 629 00:43:46,991 --> 00:43:50,271 But as with every industry, you're going to get collapses and failures. 630 00:43:50,551 --> 00:43:54,691 But what we've talked about earlier on in terms of the knock-on effect of the Bitcoin and the Bitcoin ecosystem, 631 00:43:55,131 --> 00:43:58,431 it kind of gets grouped in with all of the crypto chaos. 632 00:43:58,831 --> 00:44:01,351 So it's, yeah, it's not, it's always seen as a negative, I guess. 633 00:44:01,351 --> 00:44:05,751 anything on that day before I'll jump in and explain 634 00:44:05,751 --> 00:44:09,771 the Adol's background? No you can crack on 635 00:44:09,771 --> 00:44:13,591 yeah so hopefully yeah so reach out 636 00:44:13,591 --> 00:44:17,611 to yourself Dan as you mentioned there and I reached out to quite a few people 637 00:44:17,611 --> 00:44:21,731 within the industry when we was going through this process sort of to try and 638 00:44:21,731 --> 00:44:25,771 validate our thought process I guess in some ways as well so not just 639 00:44:25,771 --> 00:44:29,811 being a copy and paste treasury company and validate the 640 00:44:29,811 --> 00:44:33,191 mechanics of what we actually wanted to build and what we were trying to achieve. 641 00:44:34,171 --> 00:44:37,791 So going back, I guess, quite a few years within CoinCorner. 642 00:44:38,251 --> 00:44:42,331 So from a CoinCorner perspective, we custody lots of customers' Bitcoin. 643 00:44:43,051 --> 00:44:48,911 That Bitcoin is held with CoinCorner, I guess, at a CoinCorner risk is the best way to describe 644 00:44:48,911 --> 00:44:49,151 that. 645 00:44:50,211 --> 00:44:52,431 We don't charge for the custody of it. 646 00:44:52,691 --> 00:44:53,811 It's free for our customers. 647 00:44:53,811 --> 00:44:59,371 So we hold hundreds of millions of dollars worth of Bitcoin on behalf of the customers. 648 00:44:59,811 --> 00:45:02,591 obviously big risk and we get nothing for it, no reward. 649 00:45:02,891 --> 00:45:04,651 So one of the things we always looked at in the past 650 00:45:04,651 --> 00:45:06,951 is there are ways to utilize that Bitcoin 651 00:45:06,951 --> 00:45:09,491 to actually generate a yield on the back of that. 652 00:45:10,651 --> 00:45:13,251 You will know from Alan Farrington at the conferences 653 00:45:13,251 --> 00:45:15,991 and his concept of where does the yield come from. 654 00:45:16,671 --> 00:45:18,291 I mean, you've already touched on the block FIs 655 00:45:18,291 --> 00:45:20,111 and all these other ones that kind of had 656 00:45:20,111 --> 00:45:23,011 some yield bearing instruments in some respects, 657 00:45:23,071 --> 00:45:25,871 but never really disclosed how that yield was being generated. 658 00:45:25,871 --> 00:45:31,251 And obviously that was a big failure to that part of the ecosystem at the time. 659 00:45:32,071 --> 00:45:36,171 And Alan was always banging on the drum of, you know, where does this yield come from? 660 00:45:36,371 --> 00:45:41,711 So, and that was going back to, that might've even been back in 2022 at the Miami conference, 661 00:45:41,771 --> 00:45:45,431 actually, I think was maybe one of the first times I think I saw him wear the t-shirt of 662 00:45:45,431 --> 00:45:46,491 where does the yield come from? 663 00:45:47,371 --> 00:45:49,031 It might've been slightly after that. 664 00:45:49,591 --> 00:45:53,771 But you can see already the concepts and the thought processes we've been going through. 665 00:45:53,771 --> 00:45:58,411 every exchange out there has been going through similar concepts and thought processes in the back 666 00:45:58,411 --> 00:46:03,291 of the mind of how you generate yield the the likes of the ethereums solanus things like they've got 667 00:46:03,291 --> 00:46:07,971 like their proof of stake now for example with ethereum which means you can stake your ethereum 668 00:46:07,971 --> 00:46:13,891 and generate yield on it so they have some sort of yield bearing products within some of the crypto 669 00:46:13,891 --> 00:46:19,651 world should we call it whereas with bitcoin that's not a possibility so it was a difficult 670 00:46:19,651 --> 00:46:22,831 concept of how you come up with yield on the back of Bitcoin. 671 00:46:24,531 --> 00:46:32,211 Alan, so myself and Alan were talking and we, Alan's angle from where does the yield 672 00:46:32,211 --> 00:46:36,431 come from, my angle from obviously the exchange and what you do to generate yield on the back 673 00:46:36,431 --> 00:46:37,371 of all the Bitcoin you hold. 674 00:46:38,111 --> 00:46:40,491 Obviously, we wouldn't ever do anything with customer funds. 675 00:46:40,671 --> 00:46:44,831 So obviously, it's also a consideration of these are customer funds we can't do anything 676 00:46:44,831 --> 00:46:45,151 with. 677 00:46:45,231 --> 00:46:45,771 We're not charging. 678 00:46:45,911 --> 00:46:46,631 We're not doing anything with them. 679 00:46:46,631 --> 00:46:56,251 Is there options where we can do something in a transparent way where we can show the customer this is what we're willing to do if you want to then say, yep, you want to receive some of that yield as well. 680 00:46:56,491 --> 00:47:01,931 And can we create a product that is transparent, that they know exactly what we're doing with that Bitcoin to generate more of a yield? 681 00:47:02,871 --> 00:47:05,691 So we started talking a couple of years ago on this. 682 00:47:05,851 --> 00:47:11,471 We actually between so Alan has a venture capital company in the industry called Axiom Ventures. 683 00:47:11,471 --> 00:47:16,891 um axiom was the one i briefly touched on earlier on in the sense of the the venture capital funding 684 00:47:16,891 --> 00:47:23,411 that coin corner took in 2023 was that um which was for the expansion into dubai which was part of 685 00:47:23,411 --> 00:47:30,431 that so axiom became a shareholder within coin corner and that then led the conversation to 686 00:47:30,431 --> 00:47:36,191 ourselves and axiom creating a joint venture which was a company we set up 687 00:47:36,191 --> 00:47:39,031 18 months ago, so was it now, Dave? 688 00:47:39,151 --> 00:47:41,091 Lost track of time, but 18 months ago. 689 00:47:42,131 --> 00:47:46,291 That was purely focused around finding different concepts 690 00:47:46,291 --> 00:47:48,331 and ways to generate yield on the back of Bitcoin. 691 00:47:48,891 --> 00:47:52,831 So that's kind of a quiet private background company 692 00:47:52,831 --> 00:47:53,491 in some respects. 693 00:47:54,191 --> 00:47:55,411 Alan, you will see now at the minute, 694 00:47:55,511 --> 00:47:58,291 is out at conferences talking around the company, 695 00:47:58,391 --> 00:47:59,051 which is called Flux, 696 00:47:59,631 --> 00:48:02,231 which is more starting to become a little bit more public facing 697 00:48:02,231 --> 00:48:03,451 as time goes on. 698 00:48:03,451 --> 00:48:10,851 But that's more structured in a fund, an official legal fund structure of the way that's being done and built out. 699 00:48:11,331 --> 00:48:16,211 So it's a slightly different audience and a slightly different concept of how we go about generating yield on the Bitcoin. 700 00:48:17,211 --> 00:48:21,091 That led into generating yield using Lightning. 701 00:48:21,351 --> 00:48:26,691 So going back to early conversation in terms of the Lightning innovation side that CoinCorner was working on, 702 00:48:27,271 --> 00:48:30,271 we've been running Lightning nodes for over five years now. 703 00:48:30,271 --> 00:48:36,171 from a coin corner perspective myself and zach who's a cto of coin corner but there's also cto 704 00:48:36,171 --> 00:48:43,171 of b huddle um and we've got the expertise now we've kind of gone through the stages as well of 705 00:48:43,171 --> 00:48:47,251 all the pain points or not all the pain points there's gonna be more in the future but the pain 706 00:48:47,251 --> 00:48:52,691 points that you find within lightning in terms of inbound outbound liquidity channel closes um 707 00:48:52,691 --> 00:48:59,011 pulling in like looping funds back in back out and to various channels um there's lots of 708 00:48:59,011 --> 00:49:06,011 mechanics going on behind the scenes in Lightning that I guess are under the hood in some respects 709 00:49:06,011 --> 00:49:09,811 where you don't need to necessarily, as a user of Lightning, you don't necessarily need to know 710 00:49:09,811 --> 00:49:12,851 what's happening and what's going on behind the scenes. But behind the scenes, there's lots of 711 00:49:12,851 --> 00:49:17,471 moving parts. So we have the expertise, we've had that insight and that knowledge over the years 712 00:49:17,471 --> 00:49:22,231 from that. And we've realized obviously you can generate a yield in Lightning using your Bitcoin 713 00:49:22,231 --> 00:49:28,531 that you're locking into them channels, them nodes. We then kind of start to move in the 714 00:49:28,531 --> 00:49:33,031 conversation of, okay, this is a good concept to do this, but we would then need to use our own 715 00:49:33,031 --> 00:49:37,911 Bitcoin on our balance sheet to then make use of this. Obviously, CoinCorner could do that from 716 00:49:37,911 --> 00:49:42,811 the Bitcoin on its balance sheet, but scaling that up is a slightly different scenario. And 717 00:49:42,811 --> 00:49:46,611 CoinCorner doing that is a completely different business model. We operate our Lightning nodes 718 00:49:46,611 --> 00:49:52,751 purely for the efficiency and the success rate for the transactions for our customers. So we're 719 00:49:52,751 --> 00:49:56,331 not looking to generate yield on our Lightning nodes. We're just looking to make sure that 720 00:49:56,331 --> 00:50:01,311 customers when they send or receive lightning, it's successful every time. So it's a completely 721 00:50:01,311 --> 00:50:07,731 different model and projects that we'd be looking at. So we decided to look at a different company 722 00:50:07,731 --> 00:50:13,911 again and thought, okay, Bitcoin treasury side is an opportunity there that we could list this 723 00:50:13,911 --> 00:50:17,791 company as a Bitcoin treasury company, but with the actual operational model of generating yield 724 00:50:17,791 --> 00:50:23,311 natively on Bitcoin, being initially the lightning side, which is the discussion where it eventually 725 00:50:23,311 --> 00:50:29,611 led to um with we're going to more around the payments and what that all involves in terms of 726 00:50:29,611 --> 00:50:34,711 lightning but um at the high level it starts to allow the bitcoin treasury play what you'll see 727 00:50:34,711 --> 00:50:40,511 a lot at the minute where again without disrespect i'm not disrespecting any bitcoin treasury companies 728 00:50:40,511 --> 00:50:46,511 out there but they are bitcoin treasury companies that have pivoted from there or not pivoted but 729 00:50:46,511 --> 00:50:50,291 they've almost pivoted to a second business model being a bitcoin treasury company their first 730 00:50:50,291 --> 00:50:54,791 business model being um you know meta planet one of the most successful ones at the minute but 731 00:50:54,791 --> 00:51:00,251 they're a hotel and um you've got other ones out there that are a shit hotel as well dan by the 732 00:51:00,251 --> 00:51:05,731 way have you been to it you just go and look on the website is it no it's like the shittest budget 733 00:51:05,731 --> 00:51:11,011 hotel in tokyo look i don't need to be kind to these people all right i can call it for what it 734 00:51:11,011 --> 00:51:17,871 is i've never seen the hotel all my reservation the royal oak in tokyo you can go check it out 735 00:51:17,871 --> 00:51:24,631 people like yeah it's not a place you'd stay yeah let's put it that way okay but um yeah so what to 736 00:51:24,631 --> 00:51:30,491 sum up what you're saying is somebody just gets a bunch of money from venture capital and buys a 737 00:51:30,491 --> 00:51:36,251 zombie company listed on an exchange anywhere in the world and starts stacking bitcoin with uh 738 00:51:36,251 --> 00:51:41,551 venture capital money and then they hype it through a certain magazine to get everybody excited 739 00:51:41,551 --> 00:51:48,431 and then dump on bitcoin as pension funds but that's just the cynical kind of look that i've 740 00:51:48,431 --> 00:51:56,011 got at it yeah it's a good like within this industry you know the don't trust verify and 741 00:51:56,011 --> 00:52:13,697 making sure that you you know what you get into i think is key for this um and then treasury players at the minute they have like the treasury players one side of the bottle and the other side is like you say in their hotel or whatever that other ones may be um eventually in the long run the way i try and question it to people is you know what is that company going to 742 00:52:13,697 --> 00:52:18,217 be in five years 10 years 20 years time what do they expect to be as a company what's their 743 00:52:18,217 --> 00:52:22,677 operational model actually going to be is it going to continue as a hotel or is it going to continue 744 00:52:22,677 --> 00:52:29,097 as a health company or whatever they they are and i think the reality is yeah just on that i just 745 00:52:29,097 --> 00:52:33,017 I've always thought that any company that accumulates a lot of Bitcoin 746 00:52:33,017 --> 00:52:37,117 and has probably the management team to be able to be mobile enough 747 00:52:37,117 --> 00:52:39,057 to pivot enough to look at opportunities, 748 00:52:39,057 --> 00:52:41,497 because that will bring an awful lot of opportunities 749 00:52:41,497 --> 00:52:45,977 in terms of what that balance sheet can actually do for a company. 750 00:52:46,137 --> 00:52:50,057 So I'm not too worried in terms of current operational models 751 00:52:50,057 --> 00:52:52,417 for some of those treasury companies. 752 00:52:52,657 --> 00:52:53,837 I think ours is different, 753 00:52:53,977 --> 00:52:56,797 but I just think the accumulation of Bitcoin 754 00:52:56,797 --> 00:52:58,697 is such a powerful thing for the future. 755 00:52:59,097 --> 00:53:01,377 that these could be the banks of the future. 756 00:53:01,517 --> 00:53:03,897 These could be like any sort of, 757 00:53:04,817 --> 00:53:06,597 they could go into anything almost. 758 00:53:07,577 --> 00:53:09,717 And that's where I was coming to the point of, 759 00:53:09,857 --> 00:53:11,677 is for me, I see these treasury companies 760 00:53:11,677 --> 00:53:13,797 eventually going to have to pivot to be a Bitcoin bank 761 00:53:13,797 --> 00:53:15,697 and they will be a bank of the future 762 00:53:15,697 --> 00:53:18,597 where they will effectively operate 763 00:53:18,597 --> 00:53:20,857 in the same sort of financial instruments 764 00:53:20,857 --> 00:53:22,597 and whether it's loans, et cetera, 765 00:53:22,717 --> 00:53:25,577 that the banking world today operates with. 766 00:53:25,577 --> 00:53:28,237 and that expertise 767 00:53:28,237 --> 00:53:31,477 kind of the whole concept of that 768 00:53:31,477 --> 00:53:33,257 is you end up with lots of Bitcoin 769 00:53:33,257 --> 00:53:34,737 you generate more Bitcoin 770 00:53:34,737 --> 00:53:35,517 on the back of that Bitcoin 771 00:53:35,517 --> 00:53:37,437 and that's what B-Hodl has tried to do 772 00:53:37,437 --> 00:53:38,137 from day one 773 00:53:38,137 --> 00:53:40,977 but doing it in Bitcoin native 774 00:53:40,977 --> 00:53:44,097 safer, I guess less risky 775 00:53:44,097 --> 00:53:46,877 and less exotic concepts 776 00:53:46,877 --> 00:53:48,477 than we've seen in the past 777 00:53:48,477 --> 00:53:49,957 with yield on Bitcoin 778 00:53:49,957 --> 00:53:52,097 so lightning routing being 779 00:53:52,097 --> 00:53:54,297 a key initial one for us 780 00:53:54,297 --> 00:53:58,697 of what we're looking to make use of with the expertise of the team coming in to make sure that 781 00:53:58,697 --> 00:54:04,417 we can generate a yield on the back of the Bitcoin. Did you want to just, just in case people don't 782 00:54:04,417 --> 00:54:10,357 exactly understand how you can generate yield through holding Bitcoin in lightning channels, 783 00:54:10,357 --> 00:54:17,317 just like real basic stuff, because it's still, we're very guilty of just assuming people 784 00:54:17,317 --> 00:54:20,837 understand too much stuff as Bitcoiners, especially if you've been around for a little while. 785 00:54:21,337 --> 00:54:22,877 Yeah, I am definitely guilty of that. 786 00:54:23,537 --> 00:54:26,737 So yes, the basic one we say routing, 787 00:54:26,997 --> 00:54:28,957 it means that, say for example, 788 00:54:29,097 --> 00:54:32,577 all three of us have a lightning node that's running, 789 00:54:32,777 --> 00:54:35,797 but I'm connected to Dan, but I'm not connected to Dave. 790 00:54:36,857 --> 00:54:39,497 I want to send a payment from myself to Dave. 791 00:54:39,557 --> 00:54:42,077 It has to route through another part of the network, 792 00:54:42,137 --> 00:54:43,917 another node within the network to reach Dave. 793 00:54:44,357 --> 00:54:45,517 So Dan will be that middle piece 794 00:54:45,517 --> 00:54:48,037 and it'd route from me to Dan to then Dave. 795 00:54:48,037 --> 00:54:53,577 and Dan would take a small cut based off whether it's a percentage or a flat fee 796 00:54:53,577 --> 00:54:55,937 and they may take a pound for that transaction. 797 00:54:56,957 --> 00:55:00,737 That would mean that Dan has then generated some yield on the Bitcoin he has locked in 798 00:55:00,737 --> 00:55:02,817 for the liquidity between myself and Dave. 799 00:55:03,737 --> 00:55:06,457 So at a basic level, that is what we're talking about. 800 00:55:07,637 --> 00:55:10,357 And B-HODL would be that middle piece, would be Dan in that scenario 801 00:55:10,357 --> 00:55:12,917 where we're locked in between lots of nodes all around the network 802 00:55:12,917 --> 00:55:16,777 and the Bitcoin that's flowing through the network in different ways, 803 00:55:16,777 --> 00:55:21,037 which is effectively just passing IOU between myself and Dan and then Dan to Dave. 804 00:55:21,097 --> 00:55:22,937 It's just IOUs being passed backwards and forwards. 805 00:55:23,417 --> 00:55:24,717 It's off-chain. It's not on-chain. 806 00:55:25,537 --> 00:55:29,277 And that allows you to make use of all your Bitcoin, 807 00:55:29,537 --> 00:55:32,757 your collateral that you lock in to that network and generate fees, 808 00:55:32,897 --> 00:55:33,577 which is the yield. 809 00:55:35,017 --> 00:55:36,277 That's at the very basic level. 810 00:55:36,577 --> 00:55:39,337 However, what we, again, what I touched on before, 811 00:55:39,397 --> 00:55:43,977 in terms of the experience we've been through running Lightning Network nodes 812 00:55:43,977 --> 00:55:49,097 for five years, we have ended up finding lots of quirky concepts 813 00:55:49,097 --> 00:55:50,697 of how you generate that yield. 814 00:55:51,017 --> 00:55:53,777 Being at the core basic level, it's the routing. 815 00:55:54,597 --> 00:55:56,397 But there's other things that you'll see out there. 816 00:55:56,437 --> 00:55:58,517 You'll see services like, they're already public, 817 00:55:58,637 --> 00:56:01,777 so this is not the HODL thing, but you'll see services 818 00:56:01,777 --> 00:56:07,417 like Lightning Labs' loop that allows effectively you to move. 819 00:56:07,417 --> 00:56:13,257 If you have so much liquidity on one end of your channel, 820 00:56:13,257 --> 00:56:15,917 but you don't want to close the channel and go back to off-chain, 821 00:56:16,297 --> 00:56:18,297 you can loop that back around using their service 822 00:56:18,297 --> 00:56:21,497 and they'll effectively give you that liquidity back to your channel 823 00:56:21,497 --> 00:56:24,277 without having to go off-on-chain and close the channel 824 00:56:24,277 --> 00:56:25,877 if you want to maintain and keep the channel open. 825 00:56:26,257 --> 00:56:27,937 So they take then a small fee for doing that 826 00:56:27,937 --> 00:56:30,277 and that allows then participants in the network 827 00:56:30,277 --> 00:56:33,737 to manage the liquidity much better. 828 00:56:35,437 --> 00:56:37,217 There's lots of services around that. 829 00:56:37,417 --> 00:56:39,017 There's things like there's a company called Bolts 830 00:56:39,017 --> 00:56:43,017 that do similar where they're doing it from cross-chain, 831 00:56:43,017 --> 00:56:47,737 we call it but from on-chain bitcoin to say lightning but then from lightning to say liquid 832 00:56:47,737 --> 00:56:52,777 so bitcoin's liquid network um and then even through to things like cashew and like where 833 00:56:52,777 --> 00:56:56,857 feddy are doing things where it's allowing people to cross over without the need for 834 00:56:56,857 --> 00:57:01,857 um the consumer and the ux from a consumer perspective to have to think about all these 835 00:57:01,857 --> 00:57:05,377 these hurdles behind the scenes so they're offering a service behind the scenes that 836 00:57:05,377 --> 00:57:10,857 switches between them um almost instantaneously pretty much um and seamlessly so it doesn't it's 837 00:57:10,857 --> 00:57:14,817 not seen to the end user but obviously they take a fee for that and that's a service within the 838 00:57:14,817 --> 00:57:20,477 background so there are already services that you're starting to see crop up um as i touched 839 00:57:20,477 --> 00:57:25,957 on there in terms of the uh other protocols so you've got bitcoin at the base you've got lightning 840 00:57:25,957 --> 00:57:30,757 as your layer two you've then got like liquid as kind of like a side i won't go into whether 841 00:57:30,757 --> 00:57:34,797 side chains or layer twos or whatever they are but you've got liquid as another protocol you've got 842 00:57:34,797 --> 00:57:38,697 arc that's another protocol that's potentially coming which will also work with lightning and 843 00:57:38,697 --> 00:57:45,157 on chain side you've then got um feddy you've got cashew there's lots basically being built around 844 00:57:45,157 --> 00:57:50,477 bitcoin now that are becoming like these layer two layer threes and the way that they are all 845 00:57:50,477 --> 00:57:54,077 going to be able to interact with each other is going to be then services around it that provide 846 00:57:54,077 --> 00:57:58,717 service and exchange for a small fee which is where bhodl for example would start to come in 847 00:57:59,597 --> 00:58:07,397 if that makes sense another basic question for you is it when you're handling this is it in your 848 00:58:07,397 --> 00:58:14,677 interest to have more bitcoin in one channel or hundreds of bitcoin across hundreds of channels 849 00:58:14,677 --> 00:58:23,677 it varies um so there if you've got one bitcoin in hundreds of channels then theoretically 850 00:58:23,677 --> 00:58:29,337 try not to get too complicated but theoretically you may be able to go only between your channel 851 00:58:29,337 --> 00:58:33,957 and say myself and yourself dan there might only be one bitcoin so the maximum size transaction 852 00:58:33,957 --> 00:58:37,677 might be one Bitcoin. However, there is something called Multipath Payments, which actually 853 00:58:37,677 --> 00:58:43,197 would allow you to go through 10 of your different channels to send 10 Bitcoin, one Bitcoin each 854 00:58:43,197 --> 00:58:47,157 channel that send and come back together at the end to send to Dave and Dave gets 10 Bitcoin. 855 00:58:47,477 --> 00:58:51,737 So there's kind of solutions in there for that. But then that's a little bit more, 856 00:58:52,237 --> 00:58:57,017 the success rate of that might be lower because you've got to find 10 different routes all having 857 00:58:57,017 --> 00:59:01,977 one Bitcoin to eventually get to Dave, as opposed to if I just had a 10 Bitcoin channel with yourself 858 00:59:01,977 --> 00:59:03,377 and you had a 10 Bitcoin with Dave, 859 00:59:03,537 --> 00:59:05,217 we could just send 10 Bitcoin straight through 860 00:59:05,217 --> 00:59:07,537 and it would success rate would be 100% and it'd be easy. 861 00:59:08,337 --> 00:59:10,857 So there's no simple answer, unfortunately, for that. 862 00:59:10,957 --> 00:59:14,437 And it becomes, that's part of the optimization side 863 00:59:14,437 --> 00:59:15,717 that you do with the Lightning nodes 864 00:59:15,717 --> 00:59:19,517 to make sure that you are efficiently routing 865 00:59:19,517 --> 00:59:21,357 for all of the connected channels that you have 866 00:59:21,357 --> 00:59:22,277 and the nodes that you have 867 00:59:22,277 --> 00:59:24,857 and maybe the customers also that you have coming through that 868 00:59:24,857 --> 00:59:27,177 and making sure that the fee structures and everything 869 00:59:27,177 --> 00:59:30,217 are in the optimal range 870 00:59:30,217 --> 00:59:31,917 that you can then push them through yours 871 00:59:31,917 --> 00:59:33,217 as opposed to going through a different node. 872 00:59:34,057 --> 00:59:37,517 So it becomes quite a data game 873 00:59:37,517 --> 00:59:39,077 behind the scenes of what you have to do. 874 00:59:40,297 --> 00:59:43,057 The conference that's just been on 875 00:59:43,057 --> 00:59:44,477 the Bitcoin++ conference, 876 00:59:46,157 --> 00:59:48,377 if people are intrigued and understanding 877 00:59:48,377 --> 00:59:50,957 real-world examples of this happening, 878 00:59:51,577 --> 00:59:54,937 I would go and listen to C Equals talk, 879 00:59:55,017 --> 00:59:59,117 C Equals being the company that sits under block in the US, 880 00:59:59,117 --> 01:00:02,537 which is Cash App Square, all the different names of their companies. 881 01:00:03,337 --> 01:00:08,337 Sequel's is the company that's running the Lightning nodes for Cash App, 882 01:00:08,457 --> 01:00:11,217 for Block, effectively behind the scenes. 883 01:00:12,197 --> 01:00:17,057 They released their numbers back in May, I think it was, 884 01:00:17,097 --> 01:00:24,057 and they were able to generate a yield of about 9.7% APR for the year yield on theirs, 885 01:00:24,257 --> 01:00:26,417 which I believe was about a $10 million node. 886 01:00:26,417 --> 01:00:32,397 that showed then all of a sudden that was probably the first big yield percentage that publicly got 887 01:00:32,397 --> 01:00:36,997 disclosed in the industry of what they generated now the talk he did a couple of days ago at bitcoin 888 01:00:36,997 --> 01:00:43,177 plus plus he talks around that node actually just being purely focused on serving the customers of 889 01:00:43,177 --> 01:00:49,797 cash app and they didn't optimize that node for yield they optimized that node for the success rate 890 01:00:49,797 --> 01:00:54,737 of customers sending from cash app to other lightning wallets elsewhere so that was their 891 01:00:54,737 --> 01:00:58,317 pure focus and they focused on like this four different areas that he goes into and explains 892 01:00:58,317 --> 01:01:04,317 how and what they did for that um but for them to be able to generate a 9.7 percent yield on that 893 01:01:04,317 --> 01:01:10,477 bitcoin purely by focusing on the success rate of just being able to root things 100 success rate 894 01:01:10,477 --> 01:01:14,537 is incredible and they didn't even think about the yield generation it was just coincidence that 895 01:01:14,537 --> 01:01:21,917 they generated that 9.7 on the back of that um so that is probably the first public disclosed um 896 01:01:21,917 --> 01:01:26,837 I guess bit of information in terms of what you can potentially generate on the lightning side of 897 01:01:26,837 --> 01:01:34,137 things which is where hopefully be hard all going forwards we will be able to work towards and we'll 898 01:01:34,137 --> 01:01:39,077 be able to disclose as and when we can in public company it's a little difficult to disclose certain 899 01:01:39,077 --> 01:01:44,297 numbers at the minute until we announce it's the market properly but as soon as we do that will be 900 01:01:44,297 --> 01:01:49,437 made public and we'll hopefully share the the yield numbers and generation um 901 01:01:49,437 --> 01:01:57,237 maybe are we thinking um monthly basis sort of time scales i think will probably be the ideal 902 01:01:57,237 --> 01:02:01,977 maybe quarterly we'll see where we get to that yeah i think that's really important for us to 903 01:02:01,977 --> 01:02:07,477 get those actual numbers out there uh get a four months worth and report transparently so people 904 01:02:07,477 --> 01:02:13,977 can you know don't have to take our word for it anymore yeah that's going to be obviously huge 905 01:02:13,977 --> 01:02:21,337 you've clearly had this cooking in the background for well 18 months I think you said maybe even 906 01:02:21,337 --> 01:02:39,363 longer was it always the plan to IPO why go public why not just do this as a private company Why get on the stock exchange Was that kind of influenced by what you seen in the last six to nine 907 01:02:39,363 --> 01:02:42,743 months with the Bitcoin treasury companies? Or was this always part of the plan behind 908 01:02:42,743 --> 01:02:44,003 closed doors? 909 01:02:45,123 --> 01:02:49,103 It was so that there's a couple of combinations. So yes, in theory, we saw the treasury players 910 01:02:49,103 --> 01:02:52,563 kicking in and there was actually interest in the UK. With lots of the UK market actually 911 01:02:52,563 --> 01:02:55,743 going back to probably about this time last year, 912 01:02:55,803 --> 01:02:56,943 actually, when we first looked at it 913 01:02:56,943 --> 01:02:58,503 and we looked at Aquis and listed on there 914 01:02:58,503 --> 01:03:01,003 and we looked at AIM and the same listed on there. 915 01:03:01,083 --> 01:03:02,623 We looked at the cost, the timescales, et cetera. 916 01:03:02,683 --> 01:03:04,523 And we actually kind of put it on a bit of a back burner. 917 01:03:05,163 --> 01:03:06,403 And then earlier this year, 918 01:03:06,403 --> 01:03:08,083 as we started to see a bit more interest 919 01:03:08,083 --> 01:03:09,743 in the UK market for treasury companies, 920 01:03:10,203 --> 01:03:11,243 then obviously we saw, okay, 921 01:03:11,283 --> 01:03:12,643 there is a bit of a demand here, 922 01:03:12,643 --> 01:03:16,083 even if it's from a retail audience majority 923 01:03:16,083 --> 01:03:18,183 and Bitcoin majority, 924 01:03:18,563 --> 01:03:19,983 but there's actual volume, 925 01:03:20,123 --> 01:03:21,383 there's actually a demand there. 926 01:03:21,383 --> 01:03:22,803 So we can actually make use of that. 927 01:03:23,163 --> 01:03:26,303 So we wanted to make use of that from acquiring Bitcoin, 928 01:03:26,423 --> 01:03:29,283 getting Bitcoin on the balance sheet, and then replicating this. 929 01:03:29,363 --> 01:03:31,643 And what we saw, I guess, in the market, we touched on there 930 01:03:31,643 --> 01:03:32,723 with the hotel chains, et cetera. 931 01:03:32,803 --> 01:03:37,683 We wanted to try and what we saw these guys being in 5, 10, 15, 932 01:03:37,763 --> 01:03:40,743 20 years time of being that Bitcoin bank where they are generating 933 01:03:40,743 --> 01:03:41,683 the yield on the Bitcoin. 934 01:03:42,023 --> 01:03:43,743 We wanted to hit that from day one. 935 01:03:43,803 --> 01:03:45,463 And we realized we can do that from day one. 936 01:03:45,623 --> 01:03:46,603 And we knew how to do that. 937 01:03:46,883 --> 01:03:49,363 So it was a case of actually let's get to market. 938 01:03:49,903 --> 01:03:50,983 Let's list on Aquis. 939 01:03:50,983 --> 01:03:57,603 Let's try and drive this forwards, playing the Bitcoin treasury play in terms of accumulating as much Bitcoin as we can as quick as we can. 940 01:03:57,943 --> 01:04:08,503 But then actually making use of that Bitcoin from day one to actually show what these guys we know in 5, 10, 15 years time, they will be starting to pivot to how do they generate yield on the back of that Bitcoin. 941 01:04:09,263 --> 01:04:17,383 So I think it was a case of we saw that we could potentially do, we could bring, I guess, a bit of an inspiration to the Bitcoin treasury market. 942 01:04:17,383 --> 01:04:22,223 and hopefully we can bring some legitimacy of the long-term business model to that treasury market. 943 01:04:22,963 --> 01:04:23,903 So that's kind of what we saw. 944 01:04:23,983 --> 01:04:27,903 And it was definitely a good advantage being public, obviously, 945 01:04:28,003 --> 01:04:32,343 and being able to generate more Bitcoin and allow us to scale up in a much quicker capacity. 946 01:04:32,763 --> 01:04:33,083 Sorry, Dave. 947 01:04:33,463 --> 01:04:37,663 As a public platform, because we're Bitcoiners first and foremost, 948 01:04:37,963 --> 01:04:43,003 and we'll put Bitcoin first, as a public platform, you kind of want, 949 01:04:43,003 --> 01:04:48,003 we thought there's almost a need for us to get involved to show what bitcoin can do to show what 950 01:04:48,003 --> 01:04:54,163 we can build to show all the capabilities of it um so even like initiatives like we've put um a grant 951 01:04:54,163 --> 01:05:00,703 scheme in place that shares one percent of our raises to projects that can apply on our website 952 01:05:00,703 --> 01:05:06,063 in terms of those ground level projects or anyone building on the ecosystem and bits and pieces like 953 01:05:06,063 --> 01:05:11,743 that because actually a treasury company can be really supportive of bitcoin rather than just seen 954 01:05:11,743 --> 01:05:13,503 is a huge accumulation. 955 01:05:14,603 --> 01:05:15,563 And that's more, 956 01:05:15,823 --> 01:05:17,183 even the team we brought in, 957 01:05:17,263 --> 01:05:18,783 people like Freddie and Alan, 958 01:05:20,343 --> 01:05:21,183 those sort of guys 959 01:05:21,183 --> 01:05:22,583 that have always been Bitcoin advocates. 960 01:05:23,063 --> 01:05:23,703 It's, you know, 961 01:05:23,803 --> 01:05:25,683 this whole organism, 962 01:05:25,923 --> 01:05:28,543 this entity is just to help drive 963 01:05:28,543 --> 01:05:30,283 and expose people to Bitcoin 964 01:05:30,283 --> 01:05:31,883 and fundamentally get them involved. 965 01:05:32,363 --> 01:05:34,243 And I think that's maybe 966 01:05:34,243 --> 01:05:35,503 what other treasury companies 967 01:05:35,503 --> 01:05:37,083 have previously missed 968 01:05:37,083 --> 01:05:39,083 and how important Bitcoin is 969 01:05:39,083 --> 01:05:40,963 to the general ecosystem 970 01:05:40,963 --> 01:05:44,163 and that's really what I want to put forward 971 01:05:44,163 --> 01:05:45,903 for B-HODL 972 01:05:45,903 --> 01:05:48,143 I think that's the most important piece of the whole puzzle 973 01:05:48,143 --> 01:05:50,063 So how does the grant work? 974 01:05:51,143 --> 01:05:51,583 Basically 975 01:05:51,583 --> 01:05:54,003 1% of the funds raised will be 976 01:05:54,003 --> 01:05:56,023 put to a grant which is basically 977 01:05:56,023 --> 01:05:58,143 we have a page 978 01:05:58,143 --> 01:05:59,643 on our website, people can come and apply 979 01:05:59,643 --> 01:06:01,823 and we hope to start distributing from that 980 01:06:01,823 --> 01:06:03,323 as soon as possible 981 01:06:03,323 --> 01:06:06,163 And what was it like getting to IPO? 982 01:06:07,443 --> 01:06:08,263 A breeze 983 01:06:08,263 --> 01:06:17,403 um i mean we as i mentioned that we had looked at um over a year ago now and then we so we had 984 01:06:17,403 --> 01:06:22,623 a couple of contacts that we had in place that we'd already been talking to so it kind of gives 985 01:06:22,623 --> 01:06:26,563 a little bit of a head start but yeah from from start to finish officially it was probably about 986 01:06:26,563 --> 01:06:32,363 four months wasn't it from um formation of the company to uh ipo it was probably around about 987 01:06:32,363 --> 01:06:40,003 four months ish um so it was a quick process for listing a company um and that's part of we also 988 01:06:40,003 --> 01:06:45,503 wanted to get to market as quick as we could um but it was it was i don't want to say chaos in the 989 01:06:45,503 --> 01:06:49,343 background in any disrespectful way but it was like you know it is it's a journey going through 990 01:06:49,343 --> 01:06:53,463 that and experience all the different regs around how you have to structure things and what you 991 01:06:53,463 --> 01:06:58,303 better do and obviously like the public side of things now where we can say certain things and 992 01:06:58,303 --> 01:07:05,663 can't say certain things it's uh it's an experience definitely um but it was i would say a fairly 993 01:07:05,663 --> 01:07:11,463 smooth experience bar a couple of hurdles of bitcoin education as opposed to anything else 994 01:07:11,463 --> 01:07:18,243 um where it was more some of the entities in between were questioning um bitcoin as opposed 995 01:07:18,243 --> 01:07:23,823 to the company itself because i think bitcoin can be this exciting topic that we want to talk about 996 01:07:23,823 --> 01:07:28,003 so they end up asking lots of questions on it and it probably goes slower in the process it slows 997 01:07:28,003 --> 01:07:34,223 the process down as opposed to anything else but um yeah nothing nothing too bad it was the hiccups 998 01:07:34,223 --> 01:07:39,803 were not too bad along the way so you didn't buy an existing company and then change the the ticker 999 01:07:39,803 --> 01:07:45,943 no no we did fresh fresh listing um we didn't really see like same for you're going to end up 1000 01:07:45,943 --> 01:07:50,903 acquiring an existing company being then um having this operational model that you would have to 1001 01:07:50,903 --> 01:07:55,023 maintain and follow through with which we've seen a lot of them do and we already had our operational 1002 01:07:55,023 --> 01:07:59,203 model was already there. We already knew what that was. And that was the generating of the yield on 1003 01:07:59,203 --> 01:08:04,823 the Bitcoin. So we wanted to focus on that. So yeah, there was no point in us RTOing into something 1004 01:08:04,823 --> 01:08:10,003 that already existed. The other reason as well, just to touch on coming back to one of your 1005 01:08:10,003 --> 01:08:15,463 questions before around, you know, wireless as well, the capital, and I know you've, again, 1006 01:08:15,543 --> 01:08:20,723 you touched on this near the very beginning in terms of the capital demand out there, but we have 1007 01:08:20,723 --> 01:08:24,523 what I touched on there with Flux. We have Flux in the background, which is more of an official 1008 01:08:24,523 --> 01:08:29,663 fund structure which will tap into slightly different capital than the public-facing b-hardled 1009 01:08:29,663 --> 01:08:33,363 companies so b-hardled will then tap into a slightly different audience again and slightly 1010 01:08:33,363 --> 01:08:38,303 different capital pool that will pull in as you're saying there with the the sips the isas as well in 1011 01:08:38,303 --> 01:08:43,703 the uk um bitcoiners in general from retail um and hopefully then institutional going forwards as 1012 01:08:43,703 --> 01:08:50,383 well um but a slightly different play than the behind the scenes fund structure um so we're it's 1013 01:08:50,383 --> 01:08:55,863 allowing us to tap into, I guess, different markets and different areas of capital from a public 1014 01:08:55,863 --> 01:09:00,163 perception and from the private side as well in the background, which we also do have. So we do 1015 01:09:00,163 --> 01:09:04,583 have not just the, when I say we, I'm saying from a Coin Corner perspective, we have the public 1016 01:09:04,583 --> 01:09:08,543 angle of the B Huddle, but we do have a private company as well doing very similar in the background. 1017 01:09:09,623 --> 01:09:15,503 And what's the idea in five to 10 years time? You guys obviously have a vision for that. Whereas, 1018 01:09:15,503 --> 01:09:19,383 some of the others I just can't figure that out 1019 01:09:19,383 --> 01:09:23,543 so the basic level is 1020 01:09:23,543 --> 01:09:27,423 I think what I keep repeating possibly throughout this but it's Bitcoin yield 1021 01:09:27,423 --> 01:09:31,343 Bitcoin yield natively as natively as possible so things like 1022 01:09:31,343 --> 01:09:34,703 Lightning we have multiple strategies within 1023 01:09:34,703 --> 01:09:39,343 Lightning itself that we would then use or utilize to make 1024 01:09:39,343 --> 01:09:41,343 more yield on and they're all different 1025 01:09:41,343 --> 01:09:44,043 can't really disclose them. 1026 01:09:44,143 --> 01:09:45,843 We'll call it a trade secret in some respects 1027 01:09:45,843 --> 01:09:47,263 of how we do that. 1028 01:09:47,983 --> 01:09:49,263 But then that's just lightning. 1029 01:09:49,443 --> 01:09:51,743 And then there's potentially other things around mining 1030 01:09:51,743 --> 01:09:54,203 and how you can generate yield, 1031 01:09:54,323 --> 01:09:55,343 not mining ourselves, 1032 01:09:55,523 --> 01:09:56,443 but mining pools 1033 01:09:56,443 --> 01:09:57,983 and how they sometimes need liquidity 1034 01:09:57,983 --> 01:10:00,683 for payouts and things like that. 1035 01:10:00,723 --> 01:10:01,983 So we could then plug in there. 1036 01:10:02,763 --> 01:10:04,903 There's also things around Bitcoin-backed loans 1037 01:10:04,903 --> 01:10:07,303 where there's opportunities to tie into 1038 01:10:07,303 --> 01:10:08,723 then the Bitcoin liquidity required 1039 01:10:08,723 --> 01:10:11,263 for some of the Bitcoin-backed loan pieces 1040 01:10:11,263 --> 01:10:12,263 behind the scenes again. 1041 01:10:13,003 --> 01:10:15,303 And there's a couple of others that we're looking at 1042 01:10:15,303 --> 01:10:19,283 and exploring of how you can generate yield 1043 01:10:19,283 --> 01:10:21,683 as natively as possible within Bitcoin. 1044 01:10:22,943 --> 01:10:26,543 Obviously, it's always really hard. 1045 01:10:26,723 --> 01:10:28,583 We've been in this industry a while now 1046 01:10:28,583 --> 01:10:32,123 and the amount of change we've seen from 10 years ago 1047 01:10:32,123 --> 01:10:34,563 when CoinCorner started, seven years ago when I joined, 1048 01:10:34,923 --> 01:10:37,143 in terms of who's adopting it and what people are doing it 1049 01:10:37,143 --> 01:10:40,743 and where the need is, this pace of change in Bitcoin, 1050 01:10:40,743 --> 01:10:42,703 the Bitcoin industry is astronomical. 1051 01:10:43,443 --> 01:10:45,083 So it's really quite hard for us to say, 1052 01:10:45,643 --> 01:10:47,623 although Danny's got those strategies there, 1053 01:10:48,083 --> 01:10:50,943 where the need will be providing liquidity 1054 01:10:50,943 --> 01:10:53,043 into the Lightning Network, 1055 01:10:53,163 --> 01:10:55,703 for me is actually a huge game changer 1056 01:10:55,703 --> 01:10:58,003 for Bitcoin and Bitcoin payments, 1057 01:10:58,183 --> 01:10:59,523 which is what we all want to see. 1058 01:10:59,523 --> 01:11:00,703 And at the moment, 1059 01:11:00,843 --> 01:11:04,643 it needs that liquidity element to drive that forward. 1060 01:11:04,823 --> 01:11:05,883 And then there's, you know, 1061 01:11:06,443 --> 01:11:07,723 where the Tether coming to liquid 1062 01:11:07,723 --> 01:11:08,803 and the TAPRI, 1063 01:11:08,803 --> 01:11:10,723 in terms of what that might bring. 1064 01:11:10,863 --> 01:11:11,943 It's all rather exciting. 1065 01:11:12,223 --> 01:11:16,923 But in terms of five years, it's difficult to see where that will be. 1066 01:11:17,103 --> 01:11:22,743 But I know that, well, I'm imagining in terms of where the Lightning Network could be, 1067 01:11:22,803 --> 01:11:25,463 it's really quite exciting in terms of what that could unleash 1068 01:11:25,463 --> 01:11:27,823 and then what that means globally for Bitcoin. 1069 01:11:27,823 --> 01:11:31,923 If Bitcoin has got that payments layer absolutely nailed down 1070 01:11:31,923 --> 01:11:34,483 and that everyone can utilize it everywhere across the world, 1071 01:11:34,563 --> 01:11:35,623 that that's absolutely incredible. 1072 01:11:36,323 --> 01:11:38,283 And that's really where we want to be involved. 1073 01:11:38,803 --> 01:11:57,983 Yeah. Just to add to Dave's analogy there in terms of, or an analogy, sorry, to add on to explain Dave's thought process and the concepts of, I keep trying to explain this to people at the minute where if we think back to the internet and back in like the 80s, the 90s and internet, and you've got your TCP IP, which we can compare, let's say, to the Bitcoin's protocol. 1074 01:11:57,983 --> 01:12:03,643 and then on top of that you ended up building protocols on top which became so the tcpip being 1075 01:12:03,643 --> 01:12:08,763 like the data sharing piece and then you've got http which is like your web-based browser sort of 1076 01:12:08,763 --> 01:12:12,343 technology your protocol which could then theoretically let's call like your lightning 1077 01:12:12,343 --> 01:12:18,083 and your layer two built on top of the tcpip which is built on top of bitcoin um so you can see how 1078 01:12:18,083 --> 01:12:22,403 we're starting to compare the internet to where bitcoin is and then you've got smtp which is like 1079 01:12:22,403 --> 01:12:25,943 for your email protocol, which then things get built around that. 1080 01:12:26,383 --> 01:12:30,123 So that protocol in itself, SMTP, take that as an example, 1081 01:12:31,083 --> 01:12:32,903 is built on top of these other layers already. 1082 01:12:33,543 --> 01:12:36,643 And that then has Gmail and Microsoft's Outlook 1083 01:12:36,643 --> 01:12:39,603 and all different mail companies, ProtonMail, et cetera, 1084 01:12:39,943 --> 01:12:41,343 that all build around the protocol, 1085 01:12:41,483 --> 01:12:44,943 but then they all create services around that being web-based browsers. 1086 01:12:44,943 --> 01:12:47,903 Then all of a sudden you've got smartphones with apps 1087 01:12:47,903 --> 01:12:49,303 and you've got Netflix streaming. 1088 01:12:49,483 --> 01:13:00,649 You got all these things that in the 80s and 90s you wouldn even dreamt of or thought of along the way But you know 20 30 40 years later all of a sudden you have all these things at your fingertips and you don think too much of it 1089 01:13:01,009 --> 01:13:09,209 But behind the scenes, that's been built and built and built and built on top of all these technology layers to create what is an incredibly good UX experience today. 1090 01:13:09,209 --> 01:13:14,229 You turn your tally on, you've got smart tally, you can flip Netflix on and off you go and you stream and watch something straight away. 1091 01:13:14,229 --> 01:13:18,969 but you don't realize all the things going on behind the scenes and all of the services and 1092 01:13:18,969 --> 01:13:23,649 companies behind the scenes that are have built whole industries not alone just a business 1093 01:13:23,649 --> 01:13:28,909 single business they built whole industries around this and that's where we're seeing i guess bitcoin 1094 01:13:28,909 --> 01:13:34,149 and lightning and when i'm saying about arc and cashew and all these other ones that the protocols 1095 01:13:34,149 --> 01:13:38,729 that have been built around it all of these protocols will require services and business 1096 01:13:38,729 --> 01:13:42,969 models and theoretically might spin out industries around that and so that's where we're trying to 1097 01:13:42,969 --> 01:13:47,349 place ourselves in the middle of that to start building this sort of infrastructure around 1098 01:13:47,349 --> 01:13:54,169 Bitcoin. And the internet is moving data around the world. The Bitcoin piece is moving value 1099 01:13:54,169 --> 01:13:58,889 around the world. And all of the things that are built around it are just services, companies, 1100 01:13:59,049 --> 01:14:03,609 industries all around it. But at the core of it, one side is moving data, the other side is moving 1101 01:14:03,609 --> 01:14:11,329 value. And we are at the very, very infancy, sort of the 80s, 90s timescale from the internet 1102 01:14:11,329 --> 01:14:17,269 example we're kind of still in that sort of 90s era maybe for bitcoin and as dave says there we 1103 01:14:17,269 --> 01:14:22,489 have no idea what you know 10 15 20 years looks like for the the value moving around the world 1104 01:14:22,489 --> 01:14:27,789 um but that's where we're going to place ourselves now so then as the time progresses we're able to 1105 01:14:27,789 --> 01:14:31,649 be reactive enough to be basically pivot and move in the direction where we see success 1106 01:14:31,649 --> 01:14:40,089 what kills your business model what's the what stress tests have you have you run where are you 1107 01:14:40,089 --> 01:14:45,469 even like the likes of lightning not being successful but you know lightning is already 1108 01:14:45,469 --> 01:14:49,749 seven years in it's i would say it's pretty successful into the stage of where we are with 1109 01:14:49,749 --> 01:14:55,889 lightning now and you're seeing the likes of arc cashew etc being built and they are being built 1110 01:14:55,889 --> 01:15:00,289 in parallel with lightning and working hand in hand with lightning as opposed to competing with 1111 01:15:00,289 --> 01:15:04,249 it um they have a different audience and different niche that they're solving problem for that 1112 01:15:04,249 --> 01:15:09,909 lightning may not but they are still interacting and need lightning to to be that bridge between 1113 01:15:09,909 --> 01:15:16,849 Bitcoin or to Liquid or whatever that may be. So I think for me, I don't see Lightning as being 1114 01:15:16,849 --> 01:15:22,769 a failure in the future. I think it is solidifying itself there. However, if it did fail for whatever 1115 01:15:22,769 --> 01:15:28,689 reason, then that would be maybe a bit of a hit to the company in some respect. But as I've touched 1116 01:15:28,689 --> 01:15:33,609 on previously, we've still got other methods in the background of the mining piece, the Bitcoin 1117 01:15:33,609 --> 01:15:38,529 back loans, and there's other methods and theories that we're working with around how you continue to 1118 01:15:38,529 --> 01:15:40,109 generate yield on the back of Bitcoin. 1119 01:15:40,369 --> 01:15:43,469 So we would be, as I'm touching on previously, 1120 01:15:43,609 --> 01:15:45,829 would be reactive and responsive to what the success is, 1121 01:15:45,869 --> 01:15:49,049 and we would pivot around where the demand is for these services 1122 01:15:49,049 --> 01:15:52,009 and make sure we're at the forefront of that being built out 1123 01:15:52,009 --> 01:15:53,909 and we're able to react accordingly. 1124 01:15:54,769 --> 01:16:01,469 Well, Lightning did survive the Layer 2 grift of about 9 to 12 months ago, 1125 01:16:01,929 --> 01:16:05,649 where every other day there was a new Layer 2 solution 1126 01:16:05,649 --> 01:16:07,449 because the Lightning network was broken. 1127 01:16:08,069 --> 01:16:08,229 Yeah. 1128 01:16:08,529 --> 01:16:14,769 And coincidentally, I think most of them now are using Lightning to better their own version, their own layer too. 1129 01:16:14,769 --> 01:16:19,629 So I think Lightning is very well ingrained now within the industry. 1130 01:16:19,749 --> 01:16:27,049 And I think that the drive behind it, it's always the VHS, Betamax or whatever. 1131 01:16:27,149 --> 01:16:31,969 And sometimes it's not necessarily the best technology behind the scenes and the most perfect technology behind the scenes. 1132 01:16:32,049 --> 01:16:38,009 It's the one that, I guess, can move at the right time, at the right pace for the market. 1133 01:16:38,009 --> 01:16:40,009 and gains that traction. 1134 01:16:40,329 --> 01:16:42,189 And I'm not saying Lightning isn't the best, 1135 01:16:42,329 --> 01:16:44,309 but I'm saying there could be one that comes along 1136 01:16:44,309 --> 01:16:46,609 and is 10 times better than Lightning in some respects, 1137 01:16:46,789 --> 01:16:49,609 but will it gain that traction and that adoption 1138 01:16:49,609 --> 01:16:52,549 that Lightning has already managed to gain in the seven years? 1139 01:16:53,409 --> 01:16:56,989 And moving that first mover, I guess, in some respects 1140 01:16:56,989 --> 01:16:59,069 for the Layer 2s could be difficult. 1141 01:16:59,309 --> 01:17:01,509 I think that's why you're seeing the other Layer 2s 1142 01:17:01,509 --> 01:17:04,989 just integrate with Lightning as opposed to trying directly compete 1143 01:17:04,989 --> 01:17:06,609 because they know directly competing is going to be 1144 01:17:06,609 --> 01:17:07,569 such an uphill battle there. 1145 01:17:08,009 --> 01:17:15,529 their better option is to actually have it seamlessly integrate and solve a different problem that Lightning may be not very good at solving. 1146 01:17:16,169 --> 01:17:19,469 So as for the shareholders, then, Dan, you guys listed when? 1147 01:17:21,289 --> 01:17:23,909 Two weeks ago, officially, was that? Yeah, two weeks ago today. 1148 01:17:24,309 --> 01:17:27,149 Right. Well, we should have been to the moon and back by now. 1149 01:17:27,689 --> 01:17:35,249 And we should all be we should all have eternal riches and big titty bitches to quote American HODL. 1150 01:17:35,249 --> 01:17:41,049 but I mean that's been the play so far of Bitcoin treasury count so what's happened what 1151 01:17:41,049 --> 01:17:47,609 what have shareholders seen so far and what can they expect to see hopefully over the next five 1152 01:17:47,609 --> 01:17:55,729 to ten years. Joe Jumping Dave do you want me to answer that? Dave's getting the chart up 1153 01:17:55,729 --> 01:18:02,089 yeah well you do that I'll give a quick high level yeah the first obviously the first week was 1154 01:18:02,089 --> 01:18:07,889 incredibly well. I think we ended the week with about 43%. We had a bit of a dip last week and 1155 01:18:07,889 --> 01:18:13,589 kind of come down a little bit. Still above IPO price, I believe, at the minute. They will correct 1156 01:18:13,589 --> 01:18:18,969 me if I'm wrong there. But still, what, we're 15, 20% above IPO price, I think, at the minute. 1157 01:18:20,849 --> 01:18:26,389 So again, short term, it's two weeks in. I wouldn't, from a personal perspective, 1158 01:18:26,389 --> 01:18:33,489 I am not necessarily focused on them short-term movements I would rather see B-HODL over the 1159 01:18:33,489 --> 01:18:36,849 longer term like we've touched on here throughout the whole conversation in terms of this longer 1160 01:18:36,849 --> 01:18:41,529 vision of the 5, 10, 15, 20 years down the line and what we're trying to create or turn B-HODL 1161 01:18:41,529 --> 01:18:49,569 into I would rather focus on that and it would be much nicer for me to see a sustainable growth 1162 01:18:49,569 --> 01:18:54,029 pattern as opposed to a pump and dump that we've seen historically with some of the treasury 1163 01:18:54,029 --> 01:19:00,089 companies um ideally we can see this slow and steady uh growth not too slow hopefully so hopefully 1164 01:19:00,089 --> 01:19:05,849 quick and steady growth in some respects but um hopefully we can see a consistent um healthy 1165 01:19:05,849 --> 01:19:11,269 sustainable growth as opposed to them pumping yeah i'd echo that in terms of we've worked within 1166 01:19:11,269 --> 01:19:16,069 bitcoin long enough in terms of the exchange we know one of the most important things is trust 1167 01:19:16,069 --> 01:19:22,689 so you have to just run companies consistently with the same message with the same bitcoin first 1168 01:19:22,689 --> 01:19:27,829 mentality and do what you what you're going to set out to do and tell people what you're doing 1169 01:19:27,829 --> 01:19:34,009 in terms of for the treasury company it'll be you know steady accumulation of bitcoin whilst 1170 01:19:34,009 --> 01:19:38,629 generating yield on bitcoin while supporting the bitcoin network and the surrounding um 1171 01:19:38,629 --> 01:19:45,069 surrounding network subsidiary pieces as well as as we've learned from the exchange right it's just 1172 01:19:45,069 --> 01:19:51,969 about it's about consistency and building that trust and and that'll take time and you know we've 1173 01:19:51,969 --> 01:19:56,869 got the right team to do it so i'm very much looking forward to where we'll be in five years 1174 01:19:56,869 --> 01:20:02,169 time so freddie was supposed to be on this call but uh unfortunately he had to you had to you got 1175 01:20:02,169 --> 01:20:07,149 yeah you got you got me instead unfortunately sorry about sorry about that we should have just 1176 01:20:07,149 --> 01:20:11,209 pretended you were freddie dave i should have just i should have just said some latin words 1177 01:20:11,209 --> 01:20:16,449 yeah nobody can maybe got away with it nobody can out posh freddie and hear that 1178 01:20:16,449 --> 01:20:24,329 you know forget that like uh deciphering some of his terminology sometimes is is an interesting 1179 01:20:24,329 --> 01:20:32,949 how did that come to be how did uh you know you get unfortunately he's not here to tell the story 1180 01:20:32,949 --> 01:20:38,929 from his side of things but uh you obviously you obviously had a short list that you wanted uh 1181 01:20:38,929 --> 01:20:41,529 to reach out to. 1182 01:20:42,429 --> 01:20:43,129 And Freddie 1183 01:20:43,129 --> 01:20:44,889 ended up being your man. 1184 01:20:46,129 --> 01:20:46,709 Yeah, Freddie. 1185 01:20:47,129 --> 01:20:48,909 So we've known Freddie for quite a few years. 1186 01:20:49,649 --> 01:20:51,129 We met at one of the conferences 1187 01:20:51,129 --> 01:20:53,649 a fair few years ago. 1188 01:20:53,749 --> 01:20:54,909 That was maybe Edinburgh. 1189 01:20:55,509 --> 01:20:57,169 I think we first met, which 1190 01:20:57,169 --> 01:20:59,169 you were in Edinburgh, Dan. I can't remember. 1191 01:20:59,349 --> 01:21:00,129 Did you miss that one? 1192 01:21:01,409 --> 01:21:03,229 So I think we'd met there for the first time. 1193 01:21:03,969 --> 01:21:05,289 We kept in touch. We spoke. 1194 01:21:05,729 --> 01:21:07,369 Obviously, he's been running Bitcoin Policy UK. 1195 01:21:07,369 --> 01:21:09,949 so we've had communication with him from that side 1196 01:21:09,949 --> 01:21:11,309 we can see 1197 01:21:11,309 --> 01:21:13,949 for us yeah, seeing Freddie on the Bitcoin 1198 01:21:13,949 --> 01:21:16,029 policy UK side and pushing everything he 1199 01:21:16,029 --> 01:21:18,289 can in his free time to drive 1200 01:21:18,289 --> 01:21:19,569 Bitcoin adoption in the UK 1201 01:21:19,569 --> 01:21:22,029 and to drive it from a regulatory 1202 01:21:22,029 --> 01:21:24,089 point as well which is a hell of a 1203 01:21:24,089 --> 01:21:25,929 challenge in itself, his knowledge 1204 01:21:25,929 --> 01:21:27,189 and expertise around that 1205 01:21:27,189 --> 01:21:30,089 shows in everything he does from the 1206 01:21:30,089 --> 01:21:30,729 policy side 1207 01:21:30,729 --> 01:21:34,189 he is such 1208 01:21:34,189 --> 01:21:36,149 a nice approachable guy as you say 1209 01:21:36,149 --> 01:21:42,469 there you're not going to out posh um freddy as well um but he not only is he the the posh side of 1210 01:21:42,469 --> 01:21:50,949 that he is incredibly approachable um and a great guy to have on uh on board for us um he is also 1211 01:21:50,949 --> 01:21:55,429 very much a bitcoiner for the long-term mindset and what dave's touching on there with the payments 1212 01:21:55,429 --> 01:22:02,149 within the lightning ecosystem and um helping build that out that's just aligns with his vision 1213 01:22:02,149 --> 01:22:06,429 his vision completely of Bitcoin and where he sees that going over the decades to come. 1214 01:22:07,069 --> 01:22:13,949 So I think a lot of it was visions aligned, which was great. And I think for the industry in the UK, 1215 01:22:13,949 --> 01:22:19,669 what we did try to do, not only Freddie, we tried to pull in lots of UK Bitcoiners together to help 1216 01:22:19,669 --> 01:22:23,769 because for us, this was trying to help drive the adoption of Bitcoin in the UK as well. We're 1217 01:22:23,769 --> 01:22:26,409 seeing this play out in the US and other countries around the world at the minute. 1218 01:22:26,409 --> 01:22:31,509 we wanted to try and bring a UK player that brought lots of UK Bitcoins together 1219 01:22:31,509 --> 01:22:35,469 that had already been over the last five, ten years driving Bitcoin adoption. 1220 01:22:36,549 --> 01:22:41,869 So there's obviously the guys, myself, Dave and Zach from the Coin Corner side. 1221 01:22:42,629 --> 01:22:44,549 We have Mike as well, who was Coin Corner. 1222 01:22:44,649 --> 01:22:47,109 Now he's full-time B-Hodl, he's the COO of B-Hodl. 1223 01:22:47,769 --> 01:22:50,689 We also have Freddie, obviously, from the policy. 1224 01:22:50,689 --> 01:22:54,389 We have Alan Farrington from the venture capital side. 1225 01:22:54,389 --> 01:22:58,329 and he was expertly Gifford, so brings in some of the TradFi experience. 1226 01:22:58,949 --> 01:23:02,009 We have David Jacks, who is our CFO. 1227 01:23:03,089 --> 01:23:04,569 Sorry, not our CFO. 1228 01:23:06,329 --> 01:23:07,629 We've just demoted Dave. 1229 01:23:08,689 --> 01:23:10,289 Oh, well, had a good run. 1230 01:23:11,609 --> 01:23:13,409 It was far less than those two weeks, though. 1231 01:23:13,589 --> 01:23:15,709 Dave from accounts just got demoted. 1232 01:23:17,469 --> 01:23:18,309 David Jacks. 1233 01:23:18,309 --> 01:23:19,889 He is better than me. 1234 01:23:19,915 --> 01:23:23,895 David Jacks is on the board, but he's chairman. 1235 01:23:24,415 --> 01:23:27,995 He's ex-CFO of PayPal and CFO of many other companies, 1236 01:23:28,315 --> 01:23:30,215 but he's also been in the Bitcoin industry 1237 01:23:30,215 --> 01:23:32,735 and on the board of a public Bitcoin company 1238 01:23:32,735 --> 01:23:35,775 for, I think, five years now, four or five years. 1239 01:23:36,275 --> 01:23:37,435 So bringing that experience again, 1240 01:23:37,435 --> 01:23:40,055 he's also a British guy, UK side. 1241 01:23:40,395 --> 01:23:42,895 We then brought in lots of, I guess, 1242 01:23:42,915 --> 01:23:45,455 the strategic investor side where we wanted them on board. 1243 01:23:46,475 --> 01:23:48,795 And the idea is pulling in, we brought in, 1244 01:23:48,795 --> 01:23:52,715 they're on our websites you can go look at them there's adam back there's joe nakamoto 1245 01:23:52,715 --> 01:23:58,755 um there's the bitcoin collective guys jordan jeremy there's david parkinson who's musket in 1246 01:23:58,755 --> 01:24:04,515 the uk so we've pulled together as many sort of uk bitcoiners that one angle of that obviously is 1247 01:24:04,515 --> 01:24:14,255 is creating this um hub of a great bitcoin voice and outlet um but also validating the concept of 1248 01:24:14,255 --> 01:24:16,355 what B-HODL is. It's not just another 1249 01:24:16,355 --> 01:24:17,995 treasury play. There's a genuine 1250 01:24:17,995 --> 01:24:19,855 concept and business model behind this. 1251 01:24:20,275 --> 01:24:22,235 And we wanted that crowd to help us validate that 1252 01:24:22,235 --> 01:24:24,115 in some respects as well. So having their validation 1253 01:24:24,115 --> 01:24:26,095 and them on board kind of helps 1254 01:24:26,095 --> 01:24:28,135 the confidence not only in ourselves, but hopefully 1255 01:24:28,135 --> 01:24:30,295 within the market of what we're trying to do and achieve 1256 01:24:30,295 --> 01:24:32,375 here. I did promise 1257 01:24:32,375 --> 01:24:33,975 Freddie I'd ask the hard questions. 1258 01:24:35,635 --> 01:24:35,655 So, 1259 01:24:36,295 --> 01:24:38,635 well, unsurprising 1260 01:24:38,635 --> 01:24:40,255 to see Adam on a Bitcoin treasury 1261 01:24:40,255 --> 01:24:42,055 company team sheet. 1262 01:24:42,055 --> 01:24:44,095 I think it's probably easier 1263 01:24:44,095 --> 01:24:45,275 to list the ones he's not on. 1264 01:24:45,935 --> 01:24:49,055 But is there like a lockup period 1265 01:24:49,055 --> 01:24:50,755 or anything like that for early investors? 1266 01:24:50,755 --> 01:24:53,835 Because that's been one of the big kind of, 1267 01:24:53,835 --> 01:24:57,055 you know, finger pointing going on 1268 01:24:57,055 --> 01:25:00,035 at certain Bitcoin treasury companies 1269 01:25:00,035 --> 01:25:02,275 that are listed on a US exchange. 1270 01:25:02,435 --> 01:25:03,675 Let's just say that for now. 1271 01:25:04,255 --> 01:25:04,415 Yeah. 1272 01:25:04,735 --> 01:25:08,975 So the lockups are for CoinCorner. 1273 01:25:09,215 --> 01:25:11,675 So CoinCorner has a quite large stake in Beardle 1274 01:25:11,675 --> 01:25:13,935 and the directors and the team. 1275 01:25:14,275 --> 01:25:16,575 So myself, Dave, all the board, 1276 01:25:17,355 --> 01:25:18,655 a couple of the other team members as well, 1277 01:25:18,715 --> 01:25:19,895 they're all locked in for 12 months. 1278 01:25:20,015 --> 01:25:21,375 So we all have that lock-in of 12 months. 1279 01:25:22,955 --> 01:25:24,075 Nobody else is locked in, 1280 01:25:24,295 --> 01:25:27,115 but everybody else bought at the same price as, 1281 01:25:27,415 --> 01:25:28,715 so for example, like when you're saying there, 1282 01:25:28,795 --> 01:25:29,535 Adam, for example, 1283 01:25:30,095 --> 01:25:32,535 Adam Back bought in at the 14 pence share price, 1284 01:25:32,595 --> 01:25:33,975 the same as everybody did. 1285 01:25:34,135 --> 01:25:36,215 That was the IPO price effectively when we went live. 1286 01:25:36,495 --> 01:25:37,495 So nobody got a discount. 1287 01:25:37,495 --> 01:25:39,415 So there was no discounts offered to anybody. 1288 01:25:39,415 --> 01:25:45,395 there was no um like adam comes in at 10p and everyone else is a 14p or anything uh everyone 1289 01:25:45,395 --> 01:25:50,715 is at the same so they all went in the same ipo price we also did a wrap offering which in the uk 1290 01:25:50,715 --> 01:25:57,395 that's like a retail offering so it allows retail audience to join in at the ipo price um at the 14 1291 01:25:57,395 --> 01:26:03,595 pence um and we we actually went out with 500 000 pounds one just to try and do um what we thought 1292 01:26:03,595 --> 01:26:09,315 was i guess reasonable that oversubscribed within 48 hours to about 2 million and we had to close 1293 01:26:09,315 --> 01:26:13,315 that at that point because we didn't want that to continue too big. But we closed out about £2 1294 01:26:13,315 --> 01:26:20,035 million worth that came in in a 48-hour period from the retail side. So yeah, we've not done 1295 01:26:20,035 --> 01:26:26,755 any form of discounts for anything there. And obviously, the aim going forward, we were not 1296 01:26:26,755 --> 01:26:32,535 looking to do discounts for investors, as you've seen in the US. We've seen that bill badly in the 1297 01:26:32,535 --> 01:26:39,135 US. And I think reputationally, from a reputational side, the team that I'm talking 1298 01:26:39,135 --> 01:26:41,075 around there. The Coin Corner side, we've built up over 1299 01:26:41,075 --> 01:26:43,115 11 years of reputation. Adam Bach 1300 01:26:43,115 --> 01:26:45,075 obviously has a reputation as well. You've got 1301 01:26:45,075 --> 01:26:47,135 even Alan from 1302 01:26:47,135 --> 01:26:49,055 Venture Capital side, but also his 1303 01:26:49,055 --> 01:26:50,335 personality in the industry. 1304 01:26:50,995 --> 01:26:53,055 And Freddie as well. There is 1305 01:26:53,055 --> 01:26:55,135 reputation to uphold and we're not 1306 01:26:55,135 --> 01:26:57,135 looking to ruin their reputations by doing 1307 01:26:57,135 --> 01:26:59,215 anything silly. We're here 1308 01:26:59,215 --> 01:27:01,115 for the long run and making 1309 01:27:01,115 --> 01:27:01,675 that sustainable. 1310 01:27:03,135 --> 01:27:05,135 So a couple of... 1311 01:27:05,135 --> 01:27:06,835 I think this was probably a good question 1312 01:27:06,835 --> 01:27:08,835 for Dave because when I 1313 01:27:08,835 --> 01:27:14,795 When I look at some of these Bitcoin treasury companies, I think I tweeted this the other day. 1314 01:27:15,015 --> 01:27:16,155 It's pretty well known. 1315 01:27:16,335 --> 01:27:21,215 It's nigh on impossible to 51% attack the Bitcoin blockchain. 1316 01:27:21,895 --> 01:27:26,495 But you can 51% attack a Bitcoin treasury company. 1317 01:27:27,395 --> 01:27:35,615 So if you are BTC.xyz and you've bought a shell company and listed yourself on a stock exchange 1318 01:27:35,615 --> 01:27:38,435 and you're just buying as much Bitcoin as you can, 1319 01:27:38,915 --> 01:27:41,735 but your share price keeps dropping and dropping and dropping, 1320 01:27:42,395 --> 01:27:45,895 at one point, your market cap of the shares outstanding 1321 01:27:45,895 --> 01:27:48,475 multiplied by the price on the stock 1322 01:27:48,475 --> 01:27:52,415 might be less than the value of the Bitcoin 1323 01:27:52,415 --> 01:27:53,755 that you hold on your balance sheet, 1324 01:27:54,075 --> 01:27:56,315 at which point somebody like a BlackRock 1325 01:27:56,315 --> 01:27:59,395 could just come in and 51% attack, 1326 01:27:59,795 --> 01:28:01,775 buy 51% of the outstanding shares, 1327 01:28:02,195 --> 01:28:02,995 install their board, 1328 01:28:02,995 --> 01:28:07,035 and effectively buy the Bitcoin at a discount to spot. 1329 01:28:09,175 --> 01:28:12,475 In terms of mitigations on that, 1330 01:28:12,515 --> 01:28:16,915 there are market controls that mean that you have to put an offering in 1331 01:28:16,915 --> 01:28:18,615 if you go above 30%. 1332 01:28:18,615 --> 01:28:26,775 But other than that, I suppose that is a cause 1333 01:28:26,775 --> 01:28:30,835 for an arbitrage opportunity for someone to do that. 1334 01:28:31,635 --> 01:28:35,455 Yeah, I think, so we've seen that in the US with, was it Semler? 1335 01:28:35,835 --> 01:28:39,575 And I forgot the names, but there was, has it Strive acquired Semler? 1336 01:28:39,955 --> 01:28:41,615 What theoretically is it some sort of discount? 1337 01:28:41,735 --> 01:28:47,855 Because they were, MNAV is what people are calling that in terms of the Bitcoin on your balance sheet versus your market cap. 1338 01:28:48,415 --> 01:28:54,195 And when you go into negative MNAV, it means your share prices, your touch on there, Dan, is less than the Bitcoin holdings that you hold. 1339 01:28:54,375 --> 01:28:57,615 So there are companies around the world that are operating at a negative MNAV. 1340 01:28:58,215 --> 01:29:02,315 Now, the reason a lot of the time for that is because they have this operational model 1341 01:29:02,315 --> 01:29:07,075 and overhead that is a burn rate incredibly big in comparison to their revenues and their 1342 01:29:07,075 --> 01:29:07,315 income. 1343 01:29:08,095 --> 01:29:11,295 So just because they've got a lot of Bitcoin on the balance sheet doesn't mean the survival 1344 01:29:11,295 --> 01:29:16,375 of that company in the long run is worth it because they may have overheads of 5 million 1345 01:29:16,375 --> 01:29:21,095 a year, but they're bringing in 1 million and all of a sudden there's a 4 million deficit 1346 01:29:21,095 --> 01:29:22,935 there and they're not going to make that up. 1347 01:29:23,055 --> 01:29:25,755 So they're going to have to burn through that Bitcoin at some point or they're going to have 1348 01:29:25,755 --> 01:29:26,735 to raise more money from somewhere. 1349 01:29:26,735 --> 01:29:31,555 So the negative MNAV, there's usually a reason behind it when you look at the company and what that is. 1350 01:29:33,475 --> 01:29:43,155 So we are seeing, I guess, as I said there, with Semler and those companies acquiring others for the negative MNAV and then Bitcoin to their balance sheet. 1351 01:29:43,835 --> 01:29:51,255 However, I think we've looked at this as well and you kind of look at it and you think you want to acquire some of these companies that when you acquire them, 1352 01:29:51,255 --> 01:30:06,489 you are going to come with the headaches and the skeletons in the closet and things like that of what they are not only the overheads of the ongoing operations but you don know behind the scenes what potential the skeletons and overheads there are That was one of the big reasons why we listed the fresh company as opposed to RTO and into an existing company 1353 01:30:07,069 --> 01:30:12,209 because we didn't want that headache and that overhead. So even though we may look at others 1354 01:30:12,209 --> 01:30:17,349 in the market and see them in a negative MNAV, it may not be worthwhile still to go through 1355 01:30:17,349 --> 01:30:23,989 the cost of the acquisition of taking on that company, the operational burden that comes with 1356 01:30:23,989 --> 01:30:28,289 it and the team, et cetera, that maybe you could still acquire them and completely scrap 1357 01:30:28,289 --> 01:30:32,529 off their operational model and pull their Bitcoin in as an opportunity, but you'd have 1358 01:30:32,529 --> 01:30:33,609 to run the numbers and check that. 1359 01:30:33,729 --> 01:30:38,089 It's even viable depending on the legal costs of all the whole deal itself. 1360 01:30:38,989 --> 01:30:42,389 But also then, even if you do that and scrap off the operational model, it doesn't mean 1361 01:30:42,389 --> 01:30:45,889 necessarily that you're not going to remove the skeletons in the closet that you're not 1362 01:30:45,889 --> 01:30:48,849 aware of behind the scenes over the trailing years that they've been running for. 1363 01:30:49,629 --> 01:30:53,829 So I think it's a little bit of a high risk tactic in some respect to do that. 1364 01:30:53,989 --> 01:31:03,149 And I'm not sure. There's people talking online and socials around this all the time and saying that, you know, they think they're going to see consolidation between these companies. 1365 01:31:03,329 --> 01:31:15,449 And I don't really buy that unless they're strategic consolidations in some respect that have been planned in advance of these becoming proper treasury companies. 1366 01:31:15,689 --> 01:31:18,929 I don't see that as being something that I think we're going to see in the long run. 1367 01:31:18,929 --> 01:31:32,589 And I think that the more chance if whether they collapse or eventually they just actually close the company down and distribute the Bitcoin back to the shareholders is probably a more sensible option in some respects, which some may do. 1368 01:31:32,709 --> 01:31:43,209 Some may just do slow bleed and slow bleed death to death over many, many years because they have the Bitcoin on the balance sheet to be able to collateralize themselves for so many years. 1369 01:31:43,969 --> 01:31:45,749 Yeah, I guess we'll have to wait and see. 1370 01:31:45,749 --> 01:31:52,049 it's also not really a problem unique to treasury companies although in terms of that you could the 1371 01:31:52,049 --> 01:31:57,949 the nav can be worked out on any listed company it's like danny saying the barrier to rto any 1372 01:31:57,949 --> 01:32:04,729 company is so high that it's it's in most cases it's seen unless there's a big corporate advantage 1373 01:32:04,729 --> 01:32:09,569 to actually merging or buying another company it's it's often seen as too much of a headache to 1374 01:32:09,569 --> 01:32:14,229 actually go down that route so it would be that why don't you just buy more but if you had the 1375 01:32:14,229 --> 01:32:18,869 money to acquire that company why wouldn't you just buy more bitcoin um and i get there's 1376 01:32:18,869 --> 01:32:22,809 mechanisms you could do it as a share deal as opposed to a cash deal etc but then if you can 1377 01:32:22,809 --> 01:32:28,009 do it as a share deal it's very similar to what if you just sold your shares into the market and 1378 01:32:28,009 --> 01:32:33,689 then use that liquidity to then buy more bitcoin so unless you have perfect information that it 1379 01:32:33,689 --> 01:32:39,149 would be deemed almost extremely risky approach to actually accumulating more bitcoin that way 1380 01:32:39,149 --> 01:32:47,369 Because you would like that, like Danny saying that there must be under there's underlying reasons why that isn't just a one in terms of the nav. 1381 01:32:47,669 --> 01:32:51,449 So, yeah. Yeah, it is. 1382 01:32:51,669 --> 01:32:54,429 I mean, I did see when was this back? 1383 01:32:54,589 --> 01:33:04,069 September 16th, where the headline Kindly MDs Nakamoto commits 30 million dollars to Metaplanet and First Asia Bitcoin Treasury bet. 1384 01:33:04,069 --> 01:33:10,969 so you've got bitcoin treasury companies buying bitcoin treasury companies i mean 1385 01:33:10,969 --> 01:33:16,529 this is already happening you know kindly mds nakamoto committed up to 30 million dollars to 1386 01:33:16,529 --> 01:33:23,029 meta planet marking its largest investment to date but uh and yeah naka shares surged 77 1387 01:33:23,029 --> 01:33:31,629 after the deal it's not done that since uh so yeah i think you are going to get like the investment 1388 01:33:31,629 --> 01:33:32,869 into it is one thing. 1389 01:33:32,949 --> 01:33:34,049 I think like that $30 million 1390 01:33:34,049 --> 01:33:36,829 in perspective of what that is, 1391 01:33:36,969 --> 01:33:39,309 they're like a $4 billion market capital 1392 01:33:39,309 --> 01:33:39,989 or something Metaplanet. 1393 01:33:40,069 --> 01:33:41,369 So it's a drop in the ocean 1394 01:33:41,369 --> 01:33:42,529 in terms of the holding 1395 01:33:42,529 --> 01:33:45,529 that NACA have in Metaplanet. 1396 01:33:46,389 --> 01:33:47,789 And I think you will get that 1397 01:33:47,789 --> 01:33:48,669 of treasury companies 1398 01:33:48,669 --> 01:33:49,729 investing in treasury companies 1399 01:33:49,729 --> 01:33:50,989 because it's almost a way to 1400 01:33:50,989 --> 01:33:53,129 the larger treasury companies 1401 01:33:53,129 --> 01:33:54,509 investing in smaller treasury companies 1402 01:33:54,509 --> 01:33:55,669 because they'll get a larger return 1403 01:33:55,669 --> 01:33:56,209 on the investment 1404 01:33:56,209 --> 01:33:57,449 as opposed to themselves 1405 01:33:57,449 --> 01:33:58,609 being a, you know, 1406 01:33:58,689 --> 01:33:59,309 yes, of course, 1407 01:33:59,669 --> 01:34:00,769 a $4 billion company, 1408 01:34:00,769 --> 01:34:06,289 10x in that is much more difficult than 10x in a 10 million dollar company um so i think there's 1409 01:34:06,289 --> 01:34:11,089 definitely some mechanics at play there but a full acquisition of them purely for the bitcoin 1410 01:34:11,089 --> 01:34:15,049 i think there'll be few and far between of ones that we see there i don't think we'll see many 1411 01:34:15,049 --> 01:34:22,869 and and finally blackrock launched now in the uk this month i believe an etf or an etn i think it's 1412 01:34:22,869 --> 01:34:32,269 called uh uh strange exchange traded note uh well that brings a lot more competition i suppose to 1413 01:34:32,269 --> 01:34:36,709 to the space and and you know all three of us on this call we just want everybody to understand 1414 01:34:36,709 --> 01:34:44,869 buy bitcoin put it in cold storage yeah yeah first and foremost like yeah i agree it goes back to 1415 01:34:44,869 --> 01:34:47,929 what we were saying earlier on about the capital you're tapping into the different capital markets 1416 01:34:47,929 --> 01:34:48,669 and different capital. 1417 01:34:48,809 --> 01:34:52,029 So yes, you know, buy Bitcoin, put it in cold storage. 1418 01:34:52,149 --> 01:34:53,949 Coin Corner offers that product there. 1419 01:34:54,369 --> 01:34:56,889 Whereas having B-Hodl as the public company, 1420 01:34:56,889 --> 01:34:59,769 we can tap into a different capital pool, 1421 01:34:59,889 --> 01:35:02,429 should we call it, be in the ISAs, the SIPs, et cetera, 1422 01:35:02,549 --> 01:35:03,389 and institutional. 1423 01:35:04,309 --> 01:35:06,309 The Bitcoin ETNs in the UK, 1424 01:35:06,589 --> 01:35:09,389 I guess we'll see this week how they play out. 1425 01:35:10,189 --> 01:35:12,929 Now, I think for the, it's been no different 1426 01:35:12,929 --> 01:35:15,029 that you've got ETFs in the US 1427 01:35:15,029 --> 01:35:17,429 and have had them for like coming up to two years now, 1428 01:35:17,429 --> 01:35:22,129 18 months. And that's not really affected the Bitcoin treasury plays because they are a slightly 1429 01:35:22,129 --> 01:35:27,729 different play in a different model. Instead of you're buying into a Bitcoin ETF in the US, 1430 01:35:28,049 --> 01:35:31,849 and you're putting a million pounds in, but you're being charged 1% a year to 1431 01:35:31,849 --> 01:35:36,189 hold that there effectively. And you're just exposed to the Bitcoin price going up and down 1432 01:35:36,189 --> 01:35:41,289 there. Whereas with the treasury plays, you put a million pounds in and you get X amount of Bitcoin, 1433 01:35:41,449 --> 01:35:46,449 then one of the focuses around the treasury companies is Bitcoin per share. I kind of 1434 01:35:46,449 --> 01:35:53,509 hated that terminology at first, but it is probably the easiest way to explain how that works and the 1435 01:35:53,509 --> 01:35:57,949 differentiation between the ETFs where you bought a million pounds with these shares that might be 1436 01:35:57,949 --> 01:36:04,509 equivalent to a million sats, for example, within Bitcoin. But then as the company, as a treasury 1437 01:36:04,509 --> 01:36:09,589 company continues to grow and accumulate more Bitcoin, then Bitcoin per share will increase 1438 01:36:09,589 --> 01:36:14,449 over time. So instead of being charged to hold your Bitcoin there, you're actually gaining Bitcoin 1439 01:36:14,449 --> 01:36:16,509 and yield effectively is what we're looking at there. 1440 01:36:17,289 --> 01:36:19,829 So that's the differentiator between the two, I think, 1441 01:36:20,149 --> 01:36:23,429 is in the mechanics side of thing. 1442 01:36:24,129 --> 01:36:26,629 The other differentiation, I think, is, again, 1443 01:36:26,709 --> 01:36:28,909 the capital pool and the market that they're looking at, 1444 01:36:28,969 --> 01:36:31,509 whereas the ETFs are focused more on the institutional side, 1445 01:36:32,089 --> 01:36:33,289 whereas the treasury companies, 1446 01:36:33,469 --> 01:36:44,524 as much as they trying to target the institutional side a lot of that is still just retail And as you mentioned there pensions the 401ks in the US et cetera So the capital pool is slightly different I think 1447 01:36:45,404 --> 01:36:50,424 ETNs as well, just to clarify the ETNs versus an ETF, it's not an ETF. It's an exchange trading 1448 01:36:50,424 --> 01:36:55,404 note. And I believe that it's just the exposure to the price of Bitcoin. I'm not sure if they 1449 01:36:55,404 --> 01:37:00,124 will actually buy the Bitcoin in the background. They would. I believe you may know more than me 1450 01:37:00,124 --> 01:37:06,604 on etns down um but the etns i i think they don't buy the underlying asset they just um 1451 01:37:07,324 --> 01:37:14,364 effectively gain exposure to that that price of the asset i don't actually know exactly uh how 1452 01:37:14,364 --> 01:37:19,644 that works i i believe that's the difference if i could be wrong so uh please somebody fact check me 1453 01:37:21,804 --> 01:37:25,324 um but yeah i don't know how that's going to play out in the uk because i'm not sure the 1454 01:37:25,324 --> 01:37:30,284 The institutional interest in the UK for Bitcoin is nowhere near what it is in the, as in 1455 01:37:30,284 --> 01:37:34,244 comparisons like the US, where the US interest is, is really ramping up at the minute. 1456 01:37:34,784 --> 01:37:37,284 So yeah, I'm not sure how the UK one's going to play out. 1457 01:37:37,584 --> 01:37:41,304 We already do have European ones, ETFs for Bitcoin. 1458 01:37:41,524 --> 01:37:43,384 I think BlackRock have a European one of these as well. 1459 01:37:44,524 --> 01:37:48,004 And I think there's a couple of others in Europe and a couple of other countries, but 1460 01:37:48,004 --> 01:37:50,044 you know, they're not a scratch on the US ones. 1461 01:37:50,324 --> 01:37:53,644 They're just not in the same ballpark as the US guys. 1462 01:37:55,324 --> 01:37:58,064 Right. Dave, anything to add there on that? 1463 01:37:59,404 --> 01:38:05,024 I just think I don't see it negatively in terms of ETN or ETF adoption, 1464 01:38:05,024 --> 01:38:07,444 even treasury companies in terms of like any, 1465 01:38:07,984 --> 01:38:12,364 if you travel back 10 years in terms of the conversations we're having about 1466 01:38:12,364 --> 01:38:13,444 Bitcoin then, 1467 01:38:14,144 --> 01:38:18,344 and you could see this on the horizon in terms of institutional adoption and 1468 01:38:18,344 --> 01:38:24,444 the treasury companies and where the access points of Bitcoin have grown, 1469 01:38:24,444 --> 01:38:30,824 then I think it's all quite positive in terms of where it's come from 1470 01:38:30,824 --> 01:38:31,644 and where it's going. 1471 01:38:32,524 --> 01:38:35,504 It's not ideal, like you said, in terms of we want people 1472 01:38:35,504 --> 01:38:37,584 to get the underlying asset and cold store. 1473 01:38:38,304 --> 01:38:42,964 But maybe that's the pathway to that point in terms of getting that exposure. 1474 01:38:43,304 --> 01:38:47,664 So I don't view ETFs or ETNs in a negative manner. 1475 01:38:49,284 --> 01:38:50,584 Okay. All right. 1476 01:38:50,804 --> 01:38:52,884 Well, did we cover everything? 1477 01:38:54,444 --> 01:39:03,584 we must have um i was gonna i've done i've read uh your book i was just wondering if you 1478 01:39:03,584 --> 01:39:05,924 have you've got another book on the horizon 1479 01:39:05,924 --> 01:39:16,224 no i don't no uh no no no more books i've written a few articles obviously uh just about bitcoin but 1480 01:39:16,224 --> 01:39:21,764 uh yeah that book was pretty unique about like the you know what we did to exit the rat race and 1481 01:39:21,764 --> 01:39:26,144 take the kids out of school and travel around the world with them long term and it was my first 1482 01:39:26,144 --> 01:39:31,344 exposure to the homeschooling and the and the the lifestyle in terms of the house swapping bits and 1483 01:39:31,344 --> 01:39:37,644 pieces is it it's an eye-opener about i was just i i read it and i was very much like i i don't know 1484 01:39:37,644 --> 01:39:42,404 if i could do it in terms of like some some people have got the the right um i don't know 1485 01:39:42,404 --> 01:39:49,704 character for it almost in terms of of you might need more of an open-minded like the people might 1486 01:39:49,704 --> 01:39:54,104 struggle with the structural side of things and stuff like that but it was very interesting anyway 1487 01:39:54,104 --> 01:40:00,384 in terms of that sort of ability to be able the digital nomad sort of ethos and i've really liked 1488 01:40:00,384 --> 01:40:05,324 in terms of how it fits with bitcoin as well in terms of going out there and doing that it's quite 1489 01:40:05,324 --> 01:40:10,864 cool but i thought there might be like a a travel book coming where you know your favorite places in 1490 01:40:10,864 --> 01:40:17,484 the bitcoin bitcoin access you can get there so we'd have another one by now uh i'm hope hopefully 1491 01:40:17,484 --> 01:40:23,104 someone else will write that one uh yeah looking looking at hoddle solo who's now just taken uh 1492 01:40:23,104 --> 01:40:30,044 well he's quit his job wife and three girls now doing the thing exactly the same they're off going 1493 01:40:30,044 --> 01:40:37,004 traveling and they you know he's a he's a great bitcoiner uh writes the monthly newsletter bitcoin 1494 01:40:37,004 --> 01:40:45,524 events uk uh so i'm hoping yeah i'd love to see what what they experience and the different bitcoin 1495 01:40:45,524 --> 01:40:50,524 communities they knock up against out there in the wild and where you can now use your bitcoin 1496 01:40:50,524 --> 01:40:56,784 because you think it'll get easier like it should get easier right in terms of people like being 1497 01:40:56,784 --> 01:41:01,564 able to use the bitcoin in more places actually it's much made it more accessible probably more 1498 01:41:01,564 --> 01:41:07,904 more possible to do it in a way absolutely i mean you even have air btc now where you oh really 1499 01:41:07,904 --> 01:41:14,904 airbnb on bitcoin yeah where where plebs have listed their houses and you can uh go and just 1500 01:41:14,904 --> 01:41:18,624 stay there and pay in Bitcoin and get the, you know, the best welcome you could ever imagine. 1501 01:41:18,984 --> 01:41:24,484 We have Orange Pill app where you can connect with Bitcoiners wherever you land in the world 1502 01:41:24,484 --> 01:41:28,984 and get plugged straight in, you know, where did I accept Bitcoin and what are the best 1503 01:41:28,984 --> 01:41:29,604 things to do? 1504 01:41:29,604 --> 01:41:32,764 So there are great services. 1505 01:41:33,324 --> 01:41:36,984 Atlantis was being built out as well by Svetsky for travel. 1506 01:41:37,504 --> 01:41:41,944 And that was kind of Nostra and Bitcoin linked and Lightning, obviously. 1507 01:41:42,984 --> 01:41:43,504 Yeah. 1508 01:41:43,504 --> 01:41:46,404 Over to someone else to write that book. 1509 01:41:47,324 --> 01:41:48,544 I've laid the foundation. 1510 01:41:49,164 --> 01:41:49,544 You did. 1511 01:41:50,584 --> 01:41:51,484 Hats off to you. 1512 01:41:52,684 --> 01:41:53,744 Makes it more accessible. 1513 01:41:54,444 --> 01:41:55,124 Thank you, mate. 1514 01:41:55,324 --> 01:41:57,064 I've got to ask you both the final question. 1515 01:41:57,624 --> 01:42:00,124 If you had one last orange pill left to give to somebody, 1516 01:42:00,304 --> 01:42:01,924 who would you give it to and why? 1517 01:42:04,384 --> 01:42:05,964 I'm trying to remember my answer 1518 01:42:05,964 --> 01:42:07,424 from the original time you asked me. 1519 01:42:07,424 --> 01:42:09,744 I feel like I might have said Bill Gates, I think. 1520 01:42:09,744 --> 01:42:18,664 i can't remember the reasoning around it now um i'll let you answer this one day because i've 1521 01:42:18,664 --> 01:42:23,704 i would probably this will sound i'm just thinking over there because i didn't realize 1522 01:42:23,704 --> 01:42:27,944 that question would be happening but um i would probably want to give it to someone 1523 01:42:27,944 --> 01:42:34,444 like one of my children or all of them although because to develop the understanding as early as 1524 01:42:34,444 --> 01:42:38,684 possible in terms of what the world can bring under a bitcoin standard and what it actually 1525 01:42:38,684 --> 01:42:44,644 means and then it makes you think as you'd want access to that as early as possible to maybe like 1526 01:42:44,644 --> 01:42:49,744 maybe question the news you hear question the status quo in terms of schooling like you and 1527 01:42:49,744 --> 01:42:54,444 travel and bits and pieces like that maybe you'd want to give it to like although your kids you 1528 01:42:54,444 --> 01:42:59,384 know these concepts you they probably don't they won't understand until a certain age but maybe 1529 01:42:59,384 --> 01:43:05,864 that's where the education bit that we always talk about comes from but so maybe you give it to give 1530 01:43:05,864 --> 01:43:10,004 it to your children in terms of making them understand actually what's out there, what's 1531 01:43:10,004 --> 01:43:12,944 available, what you can do, because it's a good gift. 1532 01:43:13,724 --> 01:43:14,724 It certainly is, mate. 1533 01:43:14,824 --> 01:43:24,778 Perfect answer So how can people reach out if they want to learn more from you guys whether that Coin Corner B or anything else The Mount Sox MT Sox 1534 01:43:25,398 --> 01:43:27,118 Yeah, forget about the Mount Sox. 1535 01:43:27,958 --> 01:43:34,498 Yeah, on socials, Coin Corner, Bitcoin Holco on Twitter, 1536 01:43:35,918 --> 01:43:38,878 Coin Corner Danny on Twitter, you Coin Corner Dave on Twitter? 1537 01:43:38,978 --> 01:43:39,958 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1538 01:43:40,218 --> 01:43:42,718 I'm still referring to it as Twitter as well and not X 1539 01:43:42,718 --> 01:43:45,318 because I just can't get into the habit of saying X. 1540 01:43:46,218 --> 01:43:48,458 But yeah, we're pretty much active on there. 1541 01:43:48,818 --> 01:43:50,498 It's probably the best place to reach out to us 1542 01:43:50,498 --> 01:43:51,838 and see where we're up to. 1543 01:43:52,878 --> 01:43:53,698 All right, excellent. 1544 01:43:53,818 --> 01:43:54,738 Well, thanks for coming on, guys. 1545 01:43:54,898 --> 01:43:57,858 And the Brickcoiner podcast is across all platforms, 1546 01:43:58,098 --> 01:44:00,418 but push people towards Fountain. 1547 01:44:00,578 --> 01:44:01,238 Is that the idea? 1548 01:44:01,938 --> 01:44:04,418 We can, yes, if possible. 1549 01:44:04,418 --> 01:44:06,678 We've actually put a pause on that for a couple of months 1550 01:44:06,678 --> 01:44:08,398 while we were doing the B-Hodl stuff in the background. 1551 01:44:08,938 --> 01:44:11,038 We've just done our first Brickcoiner's one again. 1552 01:44:11,038 --> 01:44:13,218 did we release it last week or week before 1553 01:44:13,218 --> 01:44:15,538 which was actually with Freddie on 1554 01:44:15,538 --> 01:44:17,818 so we actually had Freddie on as the guest 1555 01:44:17,818 --> 01:44:19,898 he was here in the Isle of Man and we did an episode there 1556 01:44:19,898 --> 01:44:21,958 but yeah going forwards we will be 1557 01:44:21,958 --> 01:44:23,658 Britcoiners will be back hopefully 1558 01:44:23,658 --> 01:44:25,998 this week and getting back 1559 01:44:25,998 --> 01:44:27,078 into the swing of things 1560 01:44:27,078 --> 01:44:28,838 so yeah again that's on 1561 01:44:28,838 --> 01:44:31,478 if you Twitter again 1562 01:44:31,478 --> 01:44:33,318 just the Britcoiners handle 1563 01:44:33,318 --> 01:44:35,578 and we'll point you in the direction of all the platforms 1564 01:44:35,578 --> 01:44:38,538 Love it, well thanks for coming on guys 1565 01:44:38,538 --> 01:44:39,578 congrats on the launch 1566 01:44:39,578 --> 01:44:41,678 and yeah, we'll all be watching. 1567 01:44:42,558 --> 01:44:43,418 Cheers. Thank you, Dan. 1568 01:44:43,538 --> 01:44:44,158 Appreciate having us on. 1569 01:44:44,678 --> 01:44:45,478 See you guys. 1570 01:44:45,778 --> 01:44:46,058 Take care. 1571 01:44:47,678 --> 01:44:51,038 Well, thank you very much, everybody, for listening. 1572 01:44:51,278 --> 01:44:53,478 Thank you, Danny and Dave, for coming on. 1573 01:44:53,718 --> 01:44:55,018 Since we recorded there, 1574 01:44:55,118 --> 01:44:59,358 I've had a couple of conversations in person with Freddie as well 1575 01:44:59,358 --> 01:45:04,358 and a lot of interesting things that they're trying to do here, 1576 01:45:04,438 --> 01:45:06,118 which, like I said at the beginning, 1577 01:45:06,118 --> 01:45:12,678 you know it's almost kind of mistimed because of all the hype around all of the other stuff which I 1578 01:45:12,678 --> 01:45:19,958 see as really scammy crap. I don't know everything happens for a reason at the right time I suppose 1579 01:45:19,958 --> 01:45:26,758 the business model that they've got here maybe there's something there maybe there isn't but 1580 01:45:26,758 --> 01:45:34,318 they're trying it they're going for it and look I'm not here to tell you what to do with your money 1581 01:45:34,318 --> 01:45:36,958 full disclosure I'm not an investor 1582 01:45:36,958 --> 01:45:38,338 I'm not an investor 1583 01:45:38,338 --> 01:45:41,138 of the other one in the UK 1584 01:45:41,138 --> 01:45:43,378 or many of the others 1585 01:45:43,378 --> 01:45:45,218 that are popping up all around the world 1586 01:45:45,218 --> 01:45:47,338 I prefer 1587 01:45:47,338 --> 01:45:48,818 Bitcoin in cold storage 1588 01:45:48,818 --> 01:45:50,718 that's pretty much the game 1589 01:45:50,718 --> 01:45:53,358 and I think if most people 1590 01:45:53,358 --> 01:45:54,738 are doing that then 1591 01:45:54,738 --> 01:45:56,878 you're going to be just fine 1592 01:45:56,878 --> 01:45:59,338 in 4 years, 8 years 1593 01:45:59,338 --> 01:46:01,378 12 years, just keep stacking 1594 01:46:01,378 --> 01:46:01,778 away 1595 01:46:01,778 --> 01:46:06,038 I don't think we touched on it too deeply here 1596 01:46:06,038 --> 01:46:10,198 but there's been a lot of loan products being offered as well now 1597 01:46:10,198 --> 01:46:13,038 be careful of those as well 1598 01:46:13,038 --> 01:46:15,818 just be really really careful 1599 01:46:15,818 --> 01:46:20,898 look what's happened to the price in the last week and a half 1600 01:46:20,898 --> 01:46:23,878 it's crazy 1601 01:46:23,878 --> 01:46:25,738 and there's manipulation afoot 1602 01:46:25,738 --> 01:46:27,618 Wall Street are here now 1603 01:46:27,618 --> 01:46:32,938 They have their weapons of financial destruction at play. 1604 01:46:33,398 --> 01:46:35,238 They can manipulate forwards markets. 1605 01:46:35,498 --> 01:46:37,478 They can manipulate spot markets. 1606 01:46:37,658 --> 01:46:40,538 They can manipulate derivatives markets through options. 1607 01:46:41,238 --> 01:46:45,298 They have huge amounts of clout. 1608 01:46:46,038 --> 01:46:48,038 They can control the headlines. 1609 01:46:49,058 --> 01:46:52,958 They can push a negative feeling, a negative narrative, 1610 01:46:52,958 --> 01:46:56,038 just as quickly as they can push a new positive one, 1611 01:46:56,038 --> 01:46:59,398 talking about deregulation and this that and the other thing. 1612 01:46:59,518 --> 01:47:01,858 You are on the seesaw right now. 1613 01:47:02,538 --> 01:47:03,818 And the best thing you can do 1614 01:47:03,818 --> 01:47:06,278 is sit in the middle of that seesaw 1615 01:47:06,278 --> 01:47:10,938 on your hands with your Bitcoin in cold storage 1616 01:47:10,938 --> 01:47:15,558 so you are in complete control of your private keys. 1617 01:47:16,338 --> 01:47:18,298 That is literally the game. 1618 01:47:18,398 --> 01:47:19,258 And then just sleep well. 1619 01:47:20,078 --> 01:47:20,778 That's it. 1620 01:47:20,778 --> 01:47:23,498 And let everybody else run around with their heads on fire. 1621 01:47:23,498 --> 01:47:31,818 I just truly hope anyone listening hasn't got wrecked in the last couple of weeks with this price movement. 1622 01:47:32,658 --> 01:47:34,998 You haven't lost any Bitcoin to a margin call. 1623 01:47:36,018 --> 01:47:40,658 You haven't committed too much money from your pension to a treasury stock. 1624 01:47:42,218 --> 01:47:44,358 Try and play it as safely as you can, guys. 1625 01:47:44,718 --> 01:47:46,778 That's the underlying message here. 1626 01:47:47,538 --> 01:47:48,558 Reach out to Danny. 1627 01:47:48,958 --> 01:47:49,878 Reach out to Freddie. 1628 01:47:49,998 --> 01:47:50,818 Reach out to Dave. 1629 01:47:50,818 --> 01:47:54,058 if you've got any questions about anything that was discussed here. 1630 01:47:54,578 --> 01:47:56,578 They love chatting with the Bitcoiners. 1631 01:47:56,978 --> 01:48:00,318 They have their show, as we were talking about here, once a week. 1632 01:48:00,398 --> 01:48:04,498 So you'll get a feel for what they're seeing on their side of things. 1633 01:48:04,578 --> 01:48:07,318 They'll be talking about B-HODL, obviously, as well as CoinCorner 1634 01:48:07,318 --> 01:48:10,818 and all the other news that's going on in the world of Bitcoin. 1635 01:48:11,638 --> 01:48:16,778 And the last thing to say, really, is make sure you're stacking stats, right? 1636 01:48:17,178 --> 01:48:20,418 If you're based in the UK, CoinCorner is a great option. 1637 01:48:20,818 --> 01:48:25,898 They are, I mean, Danny founded the company 2014. 1638 01:48:26,278 --> 01:48:27,358 So they've been around. 1639 01:48:27,978 --> 01:48:29,658 They know what they're doing. 1640 01:48:29,958 --> 01:48:31,738 They know how to manage the Bitcoin. 1641 01:48:31,998 --> 01:48:33,658 They've seen several cycles. 1642 01:48:33,978 --> 01:48:35,038 They've been through all the ups. 1643 01:48:35,158 --> 01:48:36,038 They've been through all the downs. 1644 01:48:36,718 --> 01:48:41,338 And I'm not going to say your Bitcoin is safe there because I want you to self-custody. 1645 01:48:41,678 --> 01:48:43,018 Danny wants you to self-custody. 1646 01:48:43,318 --> 01:48:47,478 But I'm saying they are a very good service and something that you should certainly look at 1647 01:48:47,478 --> 01:48:51,298 if you are in the UK and you're looking to get some Bitcoin. 1648 01:48:51,298 --> 01:48:57,238 If you're across Europe, obviously Relay, R-E-L-A-I.CH forward slash Bitten. 1649 01:48:57,718 --> 01:49:03,078 Taking self-custody, Bitbox, Bitbox.Swiss forward slash Bitten. 1650 01:49:03,378 --> 01:49:06,518 If you want to start accepting Bitcoin, that's PayWithFlash. 1651 01:49:06,758 --> 01:49:10,618 Get over to PayWithFlash.com and get yourself set up. 1652 01:49:11,318 --> 01:49:12,598 Accept it, they will come. 1653 01:49:12,598 --> 01:49:20,378 geyser.fund is the place for you to go and find a project that's going to resonate with you 1654 01:49:20,378 --> 01:49:25,238 and just fund it with a few sats just send them 10 bucks or something see how that feels that's 1655 01:49:25,238 --> 01:49:30,458 obviously all done over the lightning network this is supporting the community this is trying 1656 01:49:30,458 --> 01:49:35,298 to get projects off the ground and lean in if there's any other way that you might be able to 1657 01:49:35,298 --> 01:49:41,578 support one of the projects on geyser lean in with your expertise go check them out it's geyser.fund 1658 01:49:41,578 --> 01:49:43,338 and lastly Club Orange 1659 01:49:43,338 --> 01:49:45,158 come join the club guys 1660 01:49:45,158 --> 01:49:46,038 Club Orange 1661 01:49:46,038 --> 01:49:48,238 just hit the link in the show notes 1662 01:49:48,238 --> 01:49:51,518 join almost 20,000 other Bitcoiners around the world 1663 01:49:51,518 --> 01:49:54,458 and let's keep growing out the social layer of Bitcoin 1664 01:49:54,458 --> 01:49:55,678 thank you so much for listening 1665 01:49:55,678 --> 01:49:56,338 as always 1666 01:49:56,338 --> 01:49:57,298 I'll catch you on 1667 01:49:57,298 --> 01:49:59,018 I'll catch you on the next show