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Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.

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This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can

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around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean

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for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so

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much for listening.

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Liana ensures that your Bitcoin stays accessible when it matters most.

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No third party involved.

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If you've not taken self-custody of your Bitcoin, what are you doing?

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Seriously, I aim to shame.

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If you've not taken self-custody of your Bitcoin, you are not doing it correctly.

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I don't know what else to say.

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You're leaving everything to chance.

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you've decided to opt out by exchanging your fiat for bitcoin and then you're leaving it on a third

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party exchange for it to be hacked or for somebody to have a fat finger event and wipe out your

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holdings with no recourse so not only will you lose all your bitcoin but you've already spent

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all your fiat to get the bitcoin in the first place spend a hundred bucks or so to get yourself

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a hardware wallet go do your own research you can listen to kevin in this episode talking about

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Liana. Bitbox are a sponsor of this show. That's bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten. Use the code

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bitten. You'll get a 5% discount at checkout. Taking self-custody seriously is your goal.

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And if you're not, you definitely have to start upping your knowledge around this.

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Now, don't feel the FOMO. Like I said, do your own research, get out there, ask around

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who uses what hardware and why, get to a meetup.

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You can join Orange Pill App or start your own meetup.

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I've been talking to a couple of people recently

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who are getting inspired to start their own meetups,

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and that's great to see.

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You can download and pay.

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Yes, it's a paid app, Orange Pill App,

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and find almost 17,000 Bitcoiners already there

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waiting to connect with you around the world,

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a perfect travel companion as well.

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What else is there to say other than buy Bitcoin?

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As much as you can, don't get over your skis, don't go crazy.

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Set up a dollar cost average program.

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You can do that with Swan Bitcoin in the US, swanbitcoin.com forward slash bitten.

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You can do it across Europe with Relay, R-E-L-A-I dot C-H forward slash bitten.

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And with Relay, you can stack up to a thousand Swiss or equivalent per day.

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Now, that might sound like a lot.

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if so just set up a hundred bucks a week whatever it is that you can afford to do

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like i said take this slowly and set yourself up properly do you want to accept bitcoin for your

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goods and services get over to paywithflash.com this is click and play you can be up and running

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in no time at all it's nostril enabled as well if that is your if that's your jam and reach out

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of Pierre and the guys and they will give you the handheld help that you need that's paywithflash.com

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to start accepting bitcoin for your goods and services have you heard of bubble bubbl.fm this

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is a podcast curation platform where you can start training their platform their ai to listen to all

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the Bitcoin podcasts across the specter and pick out certain topics of conversation that are going

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on. They will then piece all of those together and create for you a podcast episode out of that,

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but you're only listening to one specific topic. So you can get up to speed, hone your skills,

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and get different versions of the topic as well. You'll have somebody that is pro XYZ,

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you'll have someone that is con xyz and you'll get all kinds of different opinions in the same

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episode so go and check it out bubble.fm the link is in the show notes for you there if you are

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looking for places to spend your bitcoin and businesses to support go and download btc map

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you've got all of the information on there and you can help build that out by verifying locations

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or adding new locations plebeian.market is a new project put together by chief monkey you can find

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people there that are willing to sell their goods and services for Bitcoin. So get these sats

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flowing. Not much else to say, really, other than get to a conference. We've got BTC Helsinki

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and Riga coming up in August. So Baltic Honey Badger is 9th to 10th of August, link in the show

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notes. BTC Helsinki is the week after. If you can do both and make a trip out of it, that's awesome.

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If not, choose one and get to a conference.

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There's no words I can use to put into your mind how important it is to get out there and meet people, meet other Bitcoiners.

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This is where the magic starts happening.

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So if you can get to one of these conferences coming up in August, I look forward to seeing you there.

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You can use the code BITTON at checkout for 10% discount.

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Meanwhile, here is Kevin.

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All right, Kevin. Welcome to the show. Nice to have you on.

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Yeah, thanks for having me.

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Well, Lauren usually asks the first question, but she's not around to do that.

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But I'm pretty sure I would have said to her, Kevin's going to come on the show and he's going to talk about inheritance planning.

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And she would have looked at me and said, what's inheritance?

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So you're going to have to explain, you're going to have to pretend a 14-year-old girl has just asked you what inheritance is.

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The pressure is on now.

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yeah that's actually a very complex thing to explain even to an adult so so yeah inheritance

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well the idea is that we would like to be able to pass our assets what we own to the next generation

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when something happens to us so as simple as that right it's just making sure nothing is lost and

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and we can keep things going along generations.

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Now, from the reality of things,

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inheritance is a bunch of things.

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Of course, you have the physical kind of aspect of,

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okay, I'm getting the asset, right?

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I'm getting something, I'm getting the money,

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I'm getting the house, I'm getting the car, whatever it is.

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But you also have the problem kind of of the title.

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So who is actually the owner of this asset?

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And of course, when there is an owner,

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and we're talking about like legal stuff,

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then there is also taxation that happens on top

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where the government also want their cut.

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And that's starting to be very complicated

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when we are talking about something like Bitcoin.

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It's really hard because you can be technically

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inheriting some Bitcoin from someone,

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but nobody has the keys.

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And so maybe from the legal process,

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you're now the owner of these Bitcoins.

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You can see them because maybe you have the XPub,

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but if you don't have the private key,

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well, you don't really own them, right?

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so that's an issue and actually that from a taxation perspective is going to be a complex

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one like proving you don't have a key is complex you also have the opposite one where you might

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have access to the coins for some reason because your family gave you a copy of the mnemonic or

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something like that where legally you are not the owner of these coins for some reason I don't know

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maybe your family had a debt and and part of the assets were these bitcoins and so they are not

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owned by you, even though you control them. And so you have a lot of like layers like this that

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makes inheritance an extremely complex topic. But yeah, typically what I'm looking at is just the

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access to the coins, right? It's just the technical aspect. Can I make sure that my family will have

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access to my Bitcoin? Then it's on them to talk to a lawyer or anything like that, or an accountant

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to try to figure out, you know, yeah,

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how to make that like an official thing.

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Do they have taxes to pay on top of that?

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Like, you know, that's up to them basically.

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Would the simplest thing be just literally

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to have the hardware wallet and the private keys?

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I mean, obviously, if you're going to get knocked over

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and hit by a bus tomorrow, you know,

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there's not enough time to plan.

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But if you've got the plan in place

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and you've educated people around you,

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then you're basically just passing the alloidal title of that Bitcoin,

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which you have.

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And if people aren't familiar with that term, alloidal title,

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it means that you have complete and utter total ownership of something,

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not like your house or your car,

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which is registered with the land registry

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or with the DVLA in the case of the UK.

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In France, I can't remember what it's called.

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ANTS, maybe? A-N-T-S?

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is i don't even remember yeah haven't been in france far away so yeah right okay uh where you

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do not have a lawyer title over these things and that's where you need a third party to get involved

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i.e the probate people the lawyers the solicitors whatever they call themselves

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and they're going to take their cut and uh in france i know it was uh it was very convoluted

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very difficult to pass property like your house down through the family because

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correct me if I'm wrong and it could be the same in the UK I've not gone through this yet

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thankfully the property gets sold and then that's got to be taxed in some way shape or form

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and then that's you've got to pay the solicitors to do that and you know before you even I mean let

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alone grieving like you know no it's just straight into administration stuff yeah and uh i mean it's

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gonna stay there right like the complexity is part of the game and they are not trying to make it

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um easier there is also a lot of debate right now around like taxation of uh inheritance so some

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countries have very high taxation some of them have very low or even zero um but given the aging

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of the population and where the assets are mainly held right now with the older generations uh they

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are starting to like see oh maybe we should tax that very heavily for many reasons right one of

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them is just that there is a bunch of money sitting there and it's going to move at some point so we

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can tax it um another one is also like this entire like a fairness slash equality thing where like

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you kind of want people or at least they kind of want people to start from the same level and so if

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So if you have a big inheritance and you're not working and then you have the working class that's kind of getting poor now, that creates a big imbalance.

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And so they are like, OK, we need to fix that somehow.

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Yeah there is a lot of problems right now especially in Europe So it not going to get better or easier I think I really believe taxation is going to be insane in the short term for inheritance

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just because that's like the one thing that they know they can touch without,

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you know, creating too much drama.

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So right now, of course, like you have the pensioners that are getting the money

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from the social security.

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And then the only people that are paying for that now are like the young people

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who are working and then you know they can't afford a house and blah blah blah blah blah blah

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so yeah there's like this uh this big problem with the generation gap right now and uh and i

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think inheritance is where they're gonna find the money in the kind of in the short term that's like

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the the least uh political suicide decision they can make i think in the short term to make a lot

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of money so yeah taxation and and bureaucracy is still going to be around yeah i mean it is a

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honeypot to them to these people like you know that they have an aging population that where all

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of the assets are rolled up in when all of the uh cash deposits are rolled up in

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yeah well what can we do here we can tax the hell out of them when they die and no one's gonna

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raise like an it's shocking to me that people don't question it like yeah like honestly

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inheritance tax what are you talking about like the person's just died and they've passed away

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and they've paid tax their whole lives and now i've got to pay tax on their belongings

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before i can and there will basically be nowhere around it right it's it's extremely hard to

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like hide assets or even not hiding it's like they know everything right so you're supposed

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to declare everything and of course in reality that doesn't really happen like that like

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some or most families will still have some things that you know are not declared like jewelry and

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things like that i mean basic stuff that you can just go fetch and and distribute between the

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family and of course you're not going to declare everything you find in the house um but you should

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and uh yeah and so like larger assets like a house or a car it's just like there's no way around it

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and then of course we talk about bitcoin uh bitcoin is a special one in that case um because

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many people in Bitcoin right now are not declaring their assets, right? For different reasons.

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Sometimes it's because they don't have to, which is also a thing now in many countries. So you only

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have to declare it in some countries when you are taxable. So if you just hold it, the state might

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have no idea about how many Bitcoins you have. And so if something happens to you, then it's getting

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really difficult even if you want it as the heir uh if you want it to uh to declare things it's

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going to be very complicated because you have no provenance and things like that for like where

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do these coins come from and things like that so sometimes it's a it's it's a complicated topic and

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that's why i'm kind of glad that uh as a business ourselves we just deal with the like okay the goal

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is that your kids will have access to your keys uh that's it the rest you figure it out with them

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uh always you know third parties like a lawyer and uh and yeah that's it so how what what yeah

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i mean obviously you've been down this rabbit hole and back and you you you've produced something

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built something that uh that you want to tell the people about uh that listening to the show

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what what set you off on this path why why this particular avenue for you and uh what's the product

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Yeah. Okay. That's a big question. So actually, let's start with the product. So the product is called Liana. It's a Bitcoin wallet, but it's a Bitcoin wallet that's more advanced than your typical single-sig or multi-sig wallet because it makes use of the time locks on Bitcoin.

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So the time lock can be used for many things in Bitcoin.

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The main thing that people believe time locks are for is for locking their coins.

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But it's not.

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The time lock is just like a tool in the script we can use in Bitcoin.

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And the way we are using it, or most people using time locks are using it,

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is to actually put a delay on a specific condition to spend the coins.

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But it doesn't have to be to lock the coins for a specific amount of time.

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So the way Liana works is basically that you have your normal wallet.

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So like a single SIG or multi SIG, you know, what you would consider a wallet until now.

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So a single SIG or multi SIG.

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And you can, of course, you know, spend this money whenever you want.

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You can receive money, spend it, whatever.

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You don't have to think about time locks here.

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But with Liana, you can add conditions for other keys that you will also have in this wallet.

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And these keys cannot spend the coins until you haven't moved them for a while.

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So it's basically kind of a dead man switch.

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You have like, as long as you keep using your wallet normally,

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the other keys in your wallet can, or the other hardware wallet,

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let's say the signing devices,

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the other signing devices cannot access the coins.

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But if something happens to you after a specific amount of time,

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let's say one year in the example, if I disappear,

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one year after that, the other keys that I might have given to my family,

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for example, will be able to access my coins.

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So the coins are not moving by themselves or anything like that.

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It's really the access to the wallet that is being unlocked.

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So you can use that for many things.

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And inheritance, back to your question,

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inheritance is kind of like the, I would say the obvious,

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but also probably the more impactful thing that this solved.

215
00:17:23,112 --> 00:17:25,812
The reason for that is that before Liana,

216
00:17:26,792 --> 00:17:28,232
so before this kind of time locks,

217
00:17:28,232 --> 00:17:36,392
inheritance in Bitcoin was solved in very bad ways. The reason for that is that when you are

218
00:17:36,392 --> 00:17:41,792
in self-custody, so assuming we're talking about self-custody here, custodial is very different.

219
00:17:42,512 --> 00:17:50,752
So in self-custody, the goal of self-custody is that you control your coins. The goal of inheritance

220
00:17:50,752 --> 00:17:55,972
is that someone else access your coins when you're not here. So these two things don't work together.

221
00:17:55,972 --> 00:18:04,692
You cannot be in control of your coins and the only person in control of your coins if you also need someone else without you to be able to access your coins.

222
00:18:04,872 --> 00:18:06,592
It's two completely different things.

223
00:18:07,212 --> 00:18:14,632
So let's say if you want to do a multi-sig to do that, you could do a one of two where you have one key and your family has one key.

224
00:18:14,712 --> 00:18:17,792
But then at any time, they could empty your wallet.

225
00:18:18,392 --> 00:18:19,512
And that's not great.

226
00:18:19,872 --> 00:18:25,472
Now, some people are doing like two of three, but you still need the family to have access to two keys at some point.

227
00:18:25,972 --> 00:18:27,272
if they need to access it.

228
00:18:27,272 --> 00:18:30,632
So one way to do it is, for example, to use a service,

229
00:18:30,632 --> 00:18:33,572
I don't know, like Unchained or whoever,

230
00:18:33,572 --> 00:18:37,532
which will probably collude or collaborate

231
00:18:37,532 --> 00:18:39,152
with your family when needed.

232
00:18:39,152 --> 00:18:42,412
So they will also sign and then you have two signatures there.

233
00:18:42,412 --> 00:18:44,472
The problem is that there is a third party here.

234
00:18:44,472 --> 00:18:48,872
So the family itself and by themselves cannot recover.

235
00:18:48,872 --> 00:18:50,852
And so then if you want to do something

236
00:18:50,852 --> 00:18:54,012
when they can recover, you have to go through like two

237
00:18:54,012 --> 00:18:58,092
or four or something like that again, where they could empty your wallet

238
00:18:58,092 --> 00:18:59,892
when you're still around, which is not great.

239
00:19:00,552 --> 00:19:04,852
The other thing, even more basic that actually most people are doing

240
00:19:05,292 --> 00:19:09,512
is just writing down their mnemonic, their own mnemonic, not even a separate one.

241
00:19:09,792 --> 00:19:12,252
Put it in an envelope or something and just write down, you know,

242
00:19:12,252 --> 00:19:16,732
if something happens to me, just open this envelope and you will be able

243
00:19:16,732 --> 00:19:18,452
to access my coins.

244
00:19:19,172 --> 00:19:20,592
Again, this is pretty terrible.

245
00:19:20,592 --> 00:19:24,172
It's actually worse because if something happens to your coins,

246
00:19:24,912 --> 00:19:28,092
like if they disappear tomorrow, who are you going to blame?

247
00:19:28,312 --> 00:19:29,232
It's the same key.

248
00:19:29,372 --> 00:19:31,852
So cryptographically speaking, you can't even blame the family.

249
00:19:31,992 --> 00:19:35,732
You will never be able to prove if it's their backup or your backup

250
00:19:35,732 --> 00:19:38,512
or something else that emptied your wallet.

251
00:19:39,032 --> 00:19:42,552
So this is like a terrible situation where you can imagine

252
00:19:42,552 --> 00:19:46,012
that if your wallet is empty after you actually gave a backup to someone,

253
00:19:46,612 --> 00:19:50,192
even if they tell you it's not them, like the trust is completely destroyed.

254
00:19:50,192 --> 00:19:53,132
And that would be pretty terrible in a family situation.

255
00:19:53,672 --> 00:19:55,552
And so this is really why we were like, okay,

256
00:19:56,092 --> 00:19:58,932
now that we have a way to actually give a key to someone,

257
00:19:59,152 --> 00:20:02,872
but that key cannot access the coins as long as I'm around,

258
00:20:04,272 --> 00:20:06,792
yeah, that should be a pretty strong use case.

259
00:20:07,612 --> 00:20:10,612
So yeah, this is why Inheritance and this is why Liana.

260
00:20:11,332 --> 00:20:14,732
Now the product itself, Liana, can be used for many other things.

261
00:20:15,332 --> 00:20:19,452
One that I really like for myself is basically what I call safer backups.

262
00:20:19,452 --> 00:20:22,172
So again, back on this backup thing, right?

263
00:20:22,172 --> 00:20:24,332
You write down your mnemonic on a piece of paper,

264
00:20:24,332 --> 00:20:28,092
12 words, 24 words, whatever, and you store it somewhere.

265
00:20:28,092 --> 00:20:32,172
But if anyone accessed this mnemonic, they can empty your wallet.

266
00:20:32,812 --> 00:20:34,492
And this is just a backup.

267
00:20:34,492 --> 00:20:38,892
Why does it have to be always valiant, right?

268
00:20:39,452 --> 00:20:42,092
You could imagine that this backup is also behind a time lock.

269
00:20:42,092 --> 00:20:47,212
So now instead of freaking out all the time that someone finds my 24 words,

270
00:20:47,212 --> 00:20:49,052
I can just have a key.

271
00:20:49,052 --> 00:20:54,092
so these 24 words but they are time locked so i have my normal hardware wallet it works all the

272
00:20:54,092 --> 00:21:00,972
time but i don't have a backup of that one and if it breaks or if i lose it if i type the wrong pin

273
00:21:00,972 --> 00:21:07,532
three times whatever after a specific amount of time let's say three months i will be able to input

274
00:21:07,532 --> 00:21:13,532
my uh my backup mnemonic but um but if somebody break into my house and get my mnemonic they

275
00:21:13,532 --> 00:21:17,772
can't do anything with it as long as i still have my hardware i can move the funds etc but they

276
00:21:17,772 --> 00:21:20,532
They cannot empty my wallet with a mnemonic.

277
00:21:21,332 --> 00:21:25,252
So yeah, you can do a lot of things with something like Liana.

278
00:21:25,652 --> 00:21:31,252
I know it's a lot to take, but yeah, it's really a lot of things you can do.

279
00:21:31,492 --> 00:21:34,652
For companies, it's like key rotation, for example.

280
00:21:35,112 --> 00:21:36,212
You have an employee leaving.

281
00:21:36,712 --> 00:21:39,172
You want to be able to still access the coins in the future.

282
00:21:39,772 --> 00:21:41,332
You can have dispute resolution.

283
00:21:41,332 --> 00:21:44,252
Like for example, you have two co-founders in a company.

284
00:21:44,252 --> 00:21:47,672
or even like just, yeah, let's say for a company,

285
00:21:47,812 --> 00:21:50,652
two co-founders do a multi-sig, two of two.

286
00:21:51,812 --> 00:21:54,152
If there is a dispute or if they don't agree

287
00:21:54,152 --> 00:21:56,752
and they don't want to sign a transaction

288
00:21:56,752 --> 00:21:58,292
because of a disagreement,

289
00:21:58,912 --> 00:22:00,712
then after a specific amount of time,

290
00:22:00,772 --> 00:22:03,032
you could have an extra key from the board of director

291
00:22:03,032 --> 00:22:06,452
that would be able to co-sign after deciding

292
00:22:06,452 --> 00:22:09,392
on which side it should work.

293
00:22:09,392 --> 00:22:11,092
So a lot of things you can do.

294
00:22:11,092 --> 00:22:18,892
so just to get people i want to make sure people have uh you know they've got the right picture in

295
00:22:18,892 --> 00:22:24,532
their head here a liana wallet is a desktop wallet that you download so there's not hardware

296
00:22:24,532 --> 00:22:30,512
that's one thing i want to make clear for people and so so for the person that's already got their

297
00:22:30,512 --> 00:22:34,712
hardware wallet their cold storage at home it's not like they've got to go out and buy another

298
00:22:34,712 --> 00:22:41,832
piece of equipment they've they're set they've got their they've got their bitcoin uh tightly

299
00:22:41,832 --> 00:22:47,112
stored cold storage on a device so now what's the next step for them if they want to start looking

300
00:22:47,112 --> 00:22:53,432
into liana they go to the website and they download the uh the uh the desktop wallet yeah

301
00:22:53,432 --> 00:22:59,112
yeah so yeah wallet is a terrible word we're using in bitcoin because everything is a wallet

302
00:22:59,112 --> 00:23:00,672
So the software is a wallet.

303
00:23:01,252 --> 00:23:02,772
Your Bitcoins are in a wallet.

304
00:23:03,032 --> 00:23:04,532
Your hardware wallet is a wallet.

305
00:23:04,872 --> 00:23:06,292
But, you know, it's not the same thing.

306
00:23:06,632 --> 00:23:09,392
So, yeah, hardware wallets are a terrible name.

307
00:23:09,532 --> 00:23:10,992
We should call them signing devices.

308
00:23:11,472 --> 00:23:13,452
There is progress towards that right now.

309
00:23:13,532 --> 00:23:14,612
So at least that's a good thing.

310
00:23:14,692 --> 00:23:16,412
The signing device contains a key.

311
00:23:16,412 --> 00:23:31,824
And the key lets you kind of open the door to your actual coins So yeah we have a software that also called a wallet But basically what it is it just kind of a coordinator of these signing devices you want to use

312
00:23:31,824 --> 00:23:34,544
And you are defining the conditions,

313
00:23:34,544 --> 00:23:36,824
like which keys do you need to actually access

314
00:23:36,824 --> 00:23:39,224
the coins in this thing.

315
00:23:39,224 --> 00:23:42,284
And so when you set up Liana the first time,

316
00:23:42,284 --> 00:23:46,904
it will ask you, OK, what conditions do you want for this?

317
00:23:46,904 --> 00:23:48,824
Do you want a single SIG for yourself?

318
00:23:48,824 --> 00:23:49,904
Do you want a multi-SIG?

319
00:23:49,904 --> 00:23:51,524
So let's say I want just a single SIG.

320
00:23:51,604 --> 00:23:53,584
So I'm going to use my cold card.

321
00:23:53,984 --> 00:23:55,664
I'm going to just plug in my cold card

322
00:23:55,664 --> 00:23:59,424
or even exchange the key through the SD card or whatever

323
00:23:59,424 --> 00:24:02,764
just to tell my Liana software that,

324
00:24:02,924 --> 00:24:05,724
okay, I want my cold card as my personal device

325
00:24:05,724 --> 00:24:07,224
that's going to be valid all the time.

326
00:24:07,224 --> 00:24:08,644
With it, I can spend my money.

327
00:24:09,404 --> 00:24:11,304
Then I'm going to select my first,

328
00:24:11,564 --> 00:24:14,004
let's say my inheritance path,

329
00:24:14,104 --> 00:24:16,044
what we call a path or my inheritance option.

330
00:24:16,724 --> 00:24:18,764
So I'm going to pick another hardware wallet.

331
00:24:18,764 --> 00:24:21,924
Maybe my family already has one signing device, whatever.

332
00:24:22,144 --> 00:24:24,124
Even if they already use it, that's not a problem.

333
00:24:24,244 --> 00:24:29,204
You can have as many coin wallets if you want in one signing device.

334
00:24:29,724 --> 00:24:31,824
People are also kind of confused about that.

335
00:24:32,104 --> 00:24:35,264
But the coins are not in your hardware wallet, right?

336
00:24:35,284 --> 00:24:35,904
They are not there.

337
00:24:36,024 --> 00:24:37,584
It's not a hardware wallet.

338
00:24:37,684 --> 00:24:38,344
It's just a key.

339
00:24:38,524 --> 00:24:40,564
So you can use the same key for different wallets.

340
00:24:41,224 --> 00:24:44,444
And so if your family already use, let's say, I don't know, a ledger,

341
00:24:45,044 --> 00:24:47,504
you can actually get the expert from their ledger.

342
00:24:47,504 --> 00:24:50,784
so you can just plug in their ledger to your computer or something like that,

343
00:24:51,664 --> 00:24:58,064
put it in the inheritance option in your Liana, and then you just set the difference in time

344
00:24:58,064 --> 00:25:03,584
between them. So typically by default it's one year for inheritance. So what that means is that

345
00:25:03,584 --> 00:25:11,744
after one year of inactivity, so if you haven't spent coins for one year with the gold card in

346
00:25:11,744 --> 00:25:15,884
in this case, then the ledger would also be able to access the wallet.

347
00:25:17,064 --> 00:25:19,804
But the coins are not going to move from one to the other or anything like that.

348
00:25:19,864 --> 00:25:20,784
The concept is not that.

349
00:25:20,844 --> 00:25:23,084
The concept is that the coins are on the blockchain, right?

350
00:25:23,544 --> 00:25:27,064
And the keys that can access it are right now only the cold card.

351
00:25:27,264 --> 00:25:31,324
And if the cold card doesn't sign for more than a year, then it's either the cold card

352
00:25:31,324 --> 00:25:32,944
or the ledger in this case.

353
00:25:33,424 --> 00:25:34,544
So it's just the setup.

354
00:25:34,664 --> 00:25:35,424
It's pretty simple.

355
00:25:35,424 --> 00:25:37,124
Just plug in your hardware and it's done.

356
00:25:37,124 --> 00:25:42,124
And once it's open, like when you finish your setup, it's just a normal Bitcoin software, right?

357
00:25:42,164 --> 00:25:46,664
You have the receive button, the send button, you put your addresses, you scan your QR code.

358
00:25:46,824 --> 00:25:49,944
It doesn't annoy you with anything complex or anything like that.

359
00:25:49,964 --> 00:25:51,264
It's just a normal software.

360
00:25:52,144 --> 00:25:52,704
Got it.

361
00:25:52,964 --> 00:26:03,384
So for those people that are sitting there thinking, okay, yeah, this sounds good, but I'm not going to make a transaction in the next year or two.

362
00:26:03,524 --> 00:26:05,864
They can set the time period themselves, I'm assuming.

363
00:26:05,864 --> 00:26:25,744
They can. There is a maximum though that currently is a limit. It's kind of a virtual limit, but it's a limit in Bitcoin core. Well, in Bitcoin, in the network. So currently the kind of time lock we're using, the maximum is 15 months. So one year and three months for this type of time lock.

364
00:26:25,744 --> 00:26:35,464
So in the near future, I hope we can have, it will require a soft fork, sadly, but I really hope we can increase that a bit because it's a tiny change to do in Bitcoin.

365
00:26:36,244 --> 00:26:38,224
But yeah, currently 15 months maximum.

366
00:26:38,424 --> 00:26:48,124
So if you really don't transact, as you were saying, it's not catastrophic, but it means that your family can also access your coins if they try, right?

367
00:26:48,124 --> 00:26:52,684
So let's say if I miss my one year, what we call a refresh.

368
00:26:52,684 --> 00:26:57,704
So if I miss my one year transaction, it's kind of okay.

369
00:26:57,864 --> 00:26:58,864
I could wait two years.

370
00:26:58,964 --> 00:27:01,824
And after two years, if I do a transaction, it resets the time lock

371
00:27:01,824 --> 00:27:03,424
and you're good for another year at least.

372
00:27:04,544 --> 00:27:08,084
But yeah, it just means that the key your family has is valid

373
00:27:08,084 --> 00:27:11,044
after this one year period until you do another transaction.

374
00:27:12,124 --> 00:27:15,684
I mean, I would say what most people should consider

375
00:27:15,684 --> 00:27:19,224
and just put a reminder in the diary to make a transaction

376
00:27:19,224 --> 00:27:21,384
and just a transaction to yourself, right?

377
00:27:21,424 --> 00:27:24,004
Just spin up a new address on the device and just say...

378
00:27:24,004 --> 00:27:24,764
You don't even have to.

379
00:27:24,864 --> 00:27:25,764
You don't even have to.

380
00:27:25,804 --> 00:27:26,904
You have a button to do that.

381
00:27:27,364 --> 00:27:30,824
Now the signing devices all support as well

382
00:27:30,824 --> 00:27:34,184
to recognize when it's a transaction from yourself to yourself.

383
00:27:34,624 --> 00:27:37,104
So on the hardware, you don't even have to validate

384
00:27:37,104 --> 00:27:39,164
because it knows the coins are going back to yourself.

385
00:27:39,324 --> 00:27:40,884
So it just shows you the transaction fee.

386
00:27:41,184 --> 00:27:42,444
It doesn't even tell you the amount

387
00:27:42,444 --> 00:27:43,964
because the amount is back to you.

388
00:27:44,024 --> 00:27:44,984
So you don't lose anything.

389
00:27:45,684 --> 00:27:49,564
Um, so yeah, all the signing devices support that it's just going to say self

390
00:27:49,564 --> 00:27:52,104
transfer on your signing device and that's it.

391
00:27:52,504 --> 00:27:54,384
So it's, it's just a one button thing.

392
00:27:54,384 --> 00:27:57,444
You don't have to copy paste an address and put it in the transaction

393
00:27:57,444 --> 00:27:58,284
detail, none of that.

394
00:27:59,544 --> 00:28:01,484
So how long has this been available?

395
00:28:01,484 --> 00:28:03,224
How long has Liana wallet been around?

396
00:28:03,704 --> 00:28:08,124
It's been more than two years now, uh, that it's been launched.

397
00:28:08,304 --> 00:28:12,404
Uh, actually how long has it been?

398
00:28:13,384 --> 00:28:15,184
I don't even remember when we launched it.

399
00:28:15,684 --> 00:28:17,024
More than two years for sure.

400
00:28:17,144 --> 00:28:19,284
Maybe we're reaching the three years soon.

401
00:28:20,424 --> 00:28:26,244
So are you seeing more pickup from individuals or from companies?

402
00:28:26,404 --> 00:28:30,104
Because obviously now we're having this spate of new businesses

403
00:28:30,104 --> 00:28:33,264
declaring that they're going to put Bitcoin on their balance sheet.

404
00:28:33,824 --> 00:28:37,264
What kind of dynamic are you seeing?

405
00:28:37,824 --> 00:28:39,984
Yeah, that could be a whole podcast by itself.

406
00:28:41,664 --> 00:28:44,284
One huge problem we have as a company,

407
00:28:44,284 --> 00:28:46,444
and it's really, really hurting us

408
00:28:46,444 --> 00:28:50,104
is that we do not know who are our users

409
00:28:50,104 --> 00:28:51,964
or how many users we have

410
00:28:51,964 --> 00:28:55,344
because the software is really sovereign,

411
00:28:55,824 --> 00:28:57,204
completely open source.

412
00:28:57,384 --> 00:28:58,744
You put it on your computer.

413
00:28:59,104 --> 00:29:00,264
It doesn't talk to us.

414
00:29:00,324 --> 00:29:01,804
It doesn't connect to our servers

415
00:29:01,804 --> 00:29:02,764
or anything like that.

416
00:29:03,004 --> 00:29:04,044
You run your own node.

417
00:29:04,124 --> 00:29:05,304
It connects to your own node.

418
00:29:05,544 --> 00:29:07,664
We have no clue how many users we have,

419
00:29:07,744 --> 00:29:08,404
which is an issue.

420
00:29:09,624 --> 00:29:12,344
And so that also means we have no clue

421
00:29:12,344 --> 00:29:13,424
who is using it

422
00:29:13,424 --> 00:29:19,904
except the people who contact us for support. So we do have individuals, that's for sure.

423
00:29:19,904 --> 00:29:24,544
I guess that's the majority, but I also know we have some larger businesses.

424
00:29:26,784 --> 00:29:34,544
And I really think Liana is like the more Bitcoin you have, the more it makes sense to use Liana,

425
00:29:34,544 --> 00:29:38,624
especially if you want to do self-custody. So I actually don't think there is any

426
00:29:38,624 --> 00:29:44,064
alternative right now. If you really want self-custody and you have, let's say, a bunch of

427
00:29:44,064 --> 00:29:52,864
money, the alternative would be just a multisig. And multisig is not great when you start thinking

428
00:29:52,864 --> 00:29:58,064
about, okay, now I need a threshold because if I lose one key, I don't want my coins to be lost.

429
00:29:58,064 --> 00:30:02,384
So I can't do a two of two. I need a two of three. But then that means different combination

430
00:30:02,384 --> 00:30:07,844
of key can spend. So security gets really complex. But for a company, for example,

431
00:30:07,844 --> 00:30:12,564
like my company, Wizard Sardine, we have our coins in Liana, right?

432
00:30:13,304 --> 00:30:18,044
And so right now to access the coins, it's a two of two between me and another employee.

433
00:30:18,944 --> 00:30:20,104
But it's a two of two.

434
00:30:20,364 --> 00:30:24,404
So it means like we absolutely both have to co-sign this transaction.

435
00:30:24,544 --> 00:30:25,504
There's no way around it.

436
00:30:26,324 --> 00:30:30,784
If there is a problem, if this person is unavailable or something like that,

437
00:30:31,164 --> 00:30:34,724
after a specific amount of time, it's switched to another two of two,

438
00:30:34,724 --> 00:30:37,244
which is again me and a different employee.

439
00:30:37,844 --> 00:30:46,004
And then again, after some time it switches, et cetera, et cetera, until at some point it removed me from the equation in case something happens to me.

440
00:30:46,424 --> 00:30:48,624
And then still the others can access the coins.

441
00:30:48,884 --> 00:30:53,424
But it's not like a two of three or two of whatever, because they cannot sign together.

442
00:30:53,564 --> 00:30:55,724
I always have to be in this signing thing.

443
00:30:56,144 --> 00:30:59,504
And we know exactly who can sign at which amount of, like at which time.

444
00:30:59,504 --> 00:31:10,864
So when you have these kind of things in place, going back to like a two of three or three of five just feels like going back to, you know, prehistoric times in Bitcoin.

445
00:31:11,364 --> 00:31:14,104
So, yeah, it's just really cool for companies.

446
00:31:14,284 --> 00:31:16,804
We don't really advertise it for companies yet.

447
00:31:17,984 --> 00:31:23,084
But, yeah, we know we have some very large users and companies that are using it.

448
00:31:23,484 --> 00:31:25,504
So, yeah, that's all I can say right now.

449
00:31:25,504 --> 00:31:28,804
I think in terms of numbers of users, it's still mainly individuals.

450
00:31:29,504 --> 00:31:34,264
We know we have some companies, but again, we have no way of really knowing the exact numbers.

451
00:31:34,924 --> 00:31:39,384
And you mentioned, yeah, I forgot to ask you, where did the name come from?

452
00:31:39,484 --> 00:31:40,224
Wizard Sardine.

453
00:31:40,324 --> 00:31:42,044
Obviously, Liana is one of your products.

454
00:31:42,164 --> 00:31:42,984
Then you have Revolt.

455
00:31:43,084 --> 00:31:44,444
We can talk about Revolt in a minute.

456
00:31:44,924 --> 00:31:46,624
But why Wizard Sardine?

457
00:31:46,704 --> 00:31:48,104
And when did you pick that?

458
00:31:48,684 --> 00:31:51,204
So the company is Portuguese.

459
00:31:52,824 --> 00:31:57,224
And in Europe, bureaucracy likes to be very complex.

460
00:31:57,224 --> 00:32:01,504
and everyone likes to put different laws on top of each other.

461
00:32:01,764 --> 00:32:07,184
And so it just happens that the European Union put some kind of,

462
00:32:07,704 --> 00:32:10,804
well, I don't know if you can call that a law,

463
00:32:10,883 --> 00:32:14,324
but a very, very strong mandate on each of the member states

464
00:32:14,324 --> 00:32:17,964
to be able to open a company.

465
00:32:18,264 --> 00:32:21,044
I think it's in like a couple of days or something like that, maximum.

466
00:32:21,404 --> 00:32:24,484
Because some countries had very, very slow processes

467
00:32:24,484 --> 00:32:26,824
and it's really hurting the economy

468
00:32:26,824 --> 00:32:28,844
when you can't start a business easily.

469
00:32:29,544 --> 00:32:30,804
And so the EU said something,

470
00:32:30,964 --> 00:32:32,284
like I don't remember the exact number,

471
00:32:32,383 --> 00:32:33,824
but it's like a couple of days or something

472
00:32:33,824 --> 00:32:36,344
that every member state need to have a process

473
00:32:36,344 --> 00:32:37,824
to open a company quickly.

474
00:32:38,464 --> 00:32:40,324
And there is no way around that.

475
00:32:40,784 --> 00:32:42,684
So of course, the way they were thinking about that

476
00:32:42,684 --> 00:32:45,244
was modernization, was, you know, automatization,

477
00:32:45,644 --> 00:32:50,024
making use of digital stuff to create stuff more easily

478
00:32:50,024 --> 00:32:51,984
instead of having all the paper bureaucracy.

479
00:32:51,984 --> 00:32:54,984
In Portugal, they really like their bureaucrats.

480
00:32:54,984 --> 00:33:00,984
And so instead, what they are doing is that to fix this problem,

481
00:33:00,984 --> 00:33:05,984
they are actually creating hundreds and hundreds of shell companies in advance.

482
00:33:05,984 --> 00:33:10,984
So when you go to the company office, if you want the fast way of getting a company,

483
00:33:10,984 --> 00:33:12,984
they just basically give you one.

484
00:33:12,984 --> 00:33:17,984
And so you do have the list of all these names of shell companies they created,

485
00:33:17,984 --> 00:33:19,984
which are randomly generated. It's two words.

486
00:33:19,984 --> 00:33:24,744
So you can check it on the website of the Ministry of Justice.

487
00:33:24,744 --> 00:33:27,784
So you have the list of all these shell companies that exist that you can pick from.

488
00:33:28,284 --> 00:33:33,184
And so when you go to the company office to create your company, you just need to pick one of these names and they will give it to you.

489
00:33:33,244 --> 00:33:34,724
Right. It's in less than an hour.

490
00:33:35,484 --> 00:33:39,744
And so it's really fun because it's a very long list and there is a lot of very funny names.

491
00:33:39,883 --> 00:33:42,104
And so, yeah, we picked Wizard Sardine in this list.

492
00:33:42,484 --> 00:33:44,944
So it's actually randomly generated by the government.

493
00:33:44,944 --> 00:33:51,764
And Wizards, because Bitcoin, now it's a bit less nice because of the Taproot guys.

494
00:33:51,764 --> 00:33:57,124
But Wizards were really the name for the devs in Bitcoin until now.

495
00:33:57,584 --> 00:33:58,964
And Sardines for Portugal.

496
00:33:59,264 --> 00:34:01,304
So for us, it was great to do a Wizard Sardine.

497
00:34:01,744 --> 00:34:03,424
Yeah, I'm glad I asked.

498
00:34:03,844 --> 00:34:14,204
Because the Taproot Wizards have done damage to that emoji, let's say.

499
00:34:14,424 --> 00:34:14,864
Exactly.

500
00:34:14,944 --> 00:34:22,624
exactly and that was the whole meme as well right so you had the this join us uh drawing uh from uh

501
00:34:22,624 --> 00:34:27,864
from reddit back in the days like very very early days the the wizard that they actually took out

502
00:34:27,864 --> 00:34:32,804
their brand which is a very shit i wonder if i wonder if people are even aware of that um that's

503
00:34:32,804 --> 00:34:39,304
a good story to go into because you know that that picture of the wizard goes back a long time

504
00:34:39,304 --> 00:34:45,224
and it has been co-opted and it's pretty sad uh so yeah do you want to just give the quick history

505
00:34:45,224 --> 00:34:52,584
as to where that that original picture came from well i i don't even know how old it is um as far

506
00:34:52,584 --> 00:34:58,464
as i know it's been in bitcoin longer than me so it's been a long time that's probably something

507
00:34:58,464 --> 00:35:13,856
like 2012 or something um i know it was made on paint by a guy i forgot the name of the guy So just like they were just trying to find a good image I think for the Reddit for the slash R slash Bitcoin Reddit

508
00:35:14,655 --> 00:35:16,535
And yeah, they just went with that.

509
00:35:16,615 --> 00:35:18,015
As far as I know, this is the story.

510
00:35:18,115 --> 00:35:21,035
Maybe there is much bigger story that you know about.

511
00:35:21,956 --> 00:35:28,315
Well, all I remember is, I just Googled it so we don't need to guess anymore.

512
00:35:28,315 --> 00:35:35,595
In February 2013, a marketing campaign for Bitcoin was launched on Reddit featuring the now iconic Bitcoin wizard.

513
00:35:36,315 --> 00:35:42,635
Since then, this beloved mascot has become synonymous with Bitcoin and is recognized as the most well-known symbol of the cryptocurrency.

514
00:35:42,635 --> 00:35:54,775
Now, I remember Danny Scott over at Coin Corner, when they started pushing out their Bolt cards, they had the picture of the wizard on the Bolt cards.

515
00:35:54,775 --> 00:35:59,215
And this was back in like 2021, 2022, I want to say, 22, I think.

516
00:36:00,155 --> 00:36:08,515
And I'm sure he told me that they had to stop producing those because somebody contacted them and said, no more.

517
00:36:08,755 --> 00:36:12,755
Like, you know, this is trademarked or copyrighted or something.

518
00:36:13,095 --> 00:36:14,655
And they're like, oh, yeah, whatever.

519
00:36:14,735 --> 00:36:15,735
OK, we won't do.

520
00:36:15,815 --> 00:36:20,356
So I've got one of the original cards with the wizard on, which is great.

521
00:36:20,376 --> 00:36:23,975
But it's just such a shame to what it's become now and what it's known for now.

522
00:36:23,975 --> 00:36:28,795
It's a testament, actually, to the personalities and the people behind it.

523
00:36:29,235 --> 00:36:29,535
Absolutely.

524
00:36:29,995 --> 00:36:32,975
And yeah, for us, it's actually hurting us as well in terms of brand.

525
00:36:33,575 --> 00:36:36,055
So we were there before, of course, Taproot Wizard.

526
00:36:36,295 --> 00:36:43,235
And a lot of people, when they just see the wizard name, they're like, you know, these guys, scammers, whatever, NFT.

527
00:36:43,436 --> 00:36:47,995
I'm like, no, I'm working on the hardcore Bitcoin layer one stuff.

528
00:36:48,896 --> 00:36:50,436
I have nothing to do with these guys.

529
00:36:50,436 --> 00:36:55,555
and I'm not going to change my company name just because some people are having a bad name like

530
00:36:55,555 --> 00:37:01,655
come on man you know it's like they're going to disappear before us so oh for sure mate absolutely

531
00:37:01,655 --> 00:37:08,055
uh that that's inevitable but that's a very very cool story I'm glad I asked you about that um

532
00:37:08,055 --> 00:37:13,675
because yeah just walking into the Portuguese government and randomly picking a company shell

533
00:37:13,675 --> 00:37:21,295
name that they've made for you uh yeah very very cool so right have we have we done liana and no

534
00:37:21,295 --> 00:37:28,055
the last thing i wanted to ask you about liana uh and it's a very hot topic right now is when you

535
00:37:28,055 --> 00:37:32,856
go on the website uh you can go through like the things that you're capable of doing open source

536
00:37:32,856 --> 00:37:39,456
so you know it's open source that's very cool time locks uh miniscript coin control uh multi-sig

537
00:37:39,456 --> 00:37:48,335
no kyc dark mode only by the way yeah very very you know cypherpunk move um coin uh not coin

538
00:37:48,335 --> 00:37:56,235
control uh one click node so that's interesting to a lot of people because of you know the current

539
00:37:56,235 --> 00:38:01,115
conversation around running a bitcoin node which i'm glad is happening because a lot more people

540
00:38:01,115 --> 00:38:07,755
need to be running nodes like first of all you know not so called debate aside more nodes please

541
00:38:07,755 --> 00:38:16,376
like everybody listening make this your 2025 goal so if they download liana and they click that one

542
00:38:16,376 --> 00:38:22,995
click node what's going do you do i mean how much of the the space of their computer is it going to

543
00:38:22,995 --> 00:38:27,555
take up do they need a new device or refurb an old laptop you know what what's the actual

544
00:38:27,555 --> 00:38:33,555
practicalities obviously one click node is the the headline banner what's actually going on

545
00:38:33,555 --> 00:38:40,515
So you actually have four ways of using Liana.

546
00:38:41,115 --> 00:38:46,356
So when you launch Liana and you reach the node step,

547
00:38:47,495 --> 00:38:51,015
it will ask you, do you want to run your own node?

548
00:38:52,095 --> 00:38:54,475
Or do you want to use something called Liana Connect?

549
00:38:54,936 --> 00:38:57,995
Which is basically, we have a big disclaimer there on this page,

550
00:38:58,335 --> 00:39:01,055
on the software itself saying, if you use that,

551
00:39:01,055 --> 00:39:05,335
Like do it for testing purpose or at least know that you have no privacy towards us.

552
00:39:05,335 --> 00:39:09,696
Because if you use someone else's node, they will know about your assets.

553
00:39:09,696 --> 00:39:15,795
They might not know who you are, but they, if they have to track your coins, they have to know, you know, which coins are yours.

554
00:39:15,795 --> 00:39:16,815
Otherwise it doesn't work.

555
00:39:17,335 --> 00:39:19,295
So there is this option.

556
00:39:19,295 --> 00:39:28,215
If you don't want to run a node at all, that can be useful for like, if you're just using a burner computer and you just need to access your wallet or something like that.

557
00:39:28,215 --> 00:39:32,775
So we do have this option, Liana Connect, where you put an email address.

558
00:39:32,916 --> 00:39:35,835
You don't have to put, like, of course, an email identifying you.

559
00:39:36,195 --> 00:39:39,135
That's to connect you and to get access to the remote node.

560
00:39:39,916 --> 00:39:42,815
Very few people use that, but it's like the simple option.

561
00:39:42,936 --> 00:39:44,655
If you want to test and stuff, you can use that.

562
00:39:45,155 --> 00:39:46,916
Then I want to use my own node.

563
00:39:47,015 --> 00:39:50,476
So when you click in there, again, you have different options.

564
00:39:50,575 --> 00:39:52,876
You have I already ran my own node.

565
00:39:53,135 --> 00:39:58,075
And so in this one, you can use an Electrum node or your Bitcoin Core node.

566
00:39:58,215 --> 00:40:00,055
or your Bitcoin, Bitcoin Core node.

567
00:40:00,535 --> 00:40:03,635
So locally, Bitcoin Core, and if it's remote, Electrum.

568
00:40:04,215 --> 00:40:07,015
And then if you don't have one, you have this one-click option

569
00:40:07,015 --> 00:40:09,695
to actually install a Bitcoin Core node

570
00:40:09,695 --> 00:40:12,856
and configure it automatically as well in prune mode.

571
00:40:13,235 --> 00:40:16,095
So we do prune it to 30 gigs.

572
00:40:16,856 --> 00:40:20,615
So it's probably going to take, nowadays,

573
00:40:20,615 --> 00:40:23,456
it's probably going to take something like up to 50 gigs

574
00:40:23,456 --> 00:40:26,215
because the UTXO set is pretty large already,

575
00:40:26,295 --> 00:40:27,436
and that doesn't count in the pruning.

576
00:40:27,436 --> 00:40:32,436
So yeah, if you have like 50 gigs of data, it will work.

577
00:40:32,436 --> 00:40:35,436
But you still have to do, of course, the full IBD.

578
00:40:35,436 --> 00:40:40,436
So the initial block download, so the whole validation of the entire history.

579
00:40:40,436 --> 00:40:45,436
So even though you're pruning, you still have to download the entire history of Bitcoin.

580
00:40:45,436 --> 00:40:50,436
You're just discarding the old block as you move along in your verification of the node.

581
00:40:50,436 --> 00:40:55,436
So when you do that, depending on your machine, it might take up to like a couple of days or something.

582
00:40:55,436 --> 00:41:01,995
or something. So it's not great UX to have to wait a couple of days, but that's the minimum you can

583
00:41:01,995 --> 00:41:08,155
do to be fully sovereign. And otherwise, of course, if you already are running a node,

584
00:41:08,155 --> 00:41:10,315
then you can connect to that one. That's no problem.

585
00:41:12,315 --> 00:41:18,715
You said a few keywords there, bloat being one of them. Do you just want to explain to people that

586
00:41:18,715 --> 00:41:22,755
that might have seen this topic going around Twitter

587
00:41:22,755 --> 00:41:26,615
and aren't completely sure what all of this means

588
00:41:26,615 --> 00:41:28,575
or which side of the fence they're falling on?

589
00:41:29,055 --> 00:41:32,916
So the UTX, so we have, like, there is, like, two things

590
00:41:32,916 --> 00:41:35,416
in basically your node.

591
00:41:36,215 --> 00:41:40,275
You have the history, so all of the previous transactions

592
00:41:40,275 --> 00:41:43,755
that are in blocks, and you basically store that,

593
00:41:44,075 --> 00:41:47,115
or at least you verify that, and you store some of that

594
00:41:47,115 --> 00:41:47,856
when you prune it.

595
00:41:48,715 --> 00:41:54,396
you can discard all the old blocks, it's no problem. But then your node is also validating

596
00:41:54,396 --> 00:41:59,835
that the transactions that are incoming are valid. And to know if they are valid, they need to spend

597
00:41:59,835 --> 00:42:07,115
an existing UTXO, an unspent transaction output. So every time a transaction is spent, great, you can

598
00:42:07,115 --> 00:42:12,956
remove it from the UTXOs because it's now spent. So this one you can discard, you can forget it.

599
00:42:12,956 --> 00:42:18,315
The problem is that all of the ones that have not been spent yet, so all of the coins

600
00:42:18,315 --> 00:42:23,835
on the network that have not spent yet, we need to keep a track of them because that's where we

601
00:42:23,835 --> 00:42:27,515
verify if the new transactions are actually spending from those. Because if they are not

602
00:42:27,515 --> 00:42:34,715
spending from those, they are fake transactions. And so this is normal to grow over time because

603
00:42:34,715 --> 00:42:40,235
the price of Bitcoin going up and more users using Bitcoin, typically the UTXOs are getting

604
00:42:40,235 --> 00:42:45,356
smaller and smaller. In the early days, people might have UTXOs of a thousand Bitcoin because

605
00:42:45,356 --> 00:42:52,795
it was worthless. Now having a UTXO of one Bitcoin is starting to be more rare already because people

606
00:42:52,795 --> 00:42:58,075
are using more reasonable denomination, kind of like you do in your pocket when you go buy

607
00:42:58,075 --> 00:43:01,995
something in your wallet, you have different denominations. So same with your wallet.

608
00:43:01,995 --> 00:43:08,635
So each person probably owns a bunch of UTXOs. So the more people we have using Bitcoin, the more

609
00:43:08,635 --> 00:43:15,195
UTXOs there will be. So it's normal that this set grows over time. And that's kind of a fact.

610
00:43:15,356 --> 00:43:19,115
Now, it's growing very fast for the past couple of years.

611
00:43:19,115 --> 00:43:23,775
Again, I'm saying again because it's not the first time that it happens in the history of Bitcoin.

612
00:43:27,255 --> 00:43:30,635
It's kind of okay and expected that it goes up.

613
00:43:31,015 --> 00:43:38,595
But we also know that some of these outputs, some of these UTXOs, are actually not going to be ever spent.

614
00:43:38,775 --> 00:43:40,555
Because they are there for other reasons.

615
00:43:40,555 --> 00:43:48,396
or I mean, we can't know for sure, but some of them are probably there in a way that they might

616
00:43:48,396 --> 00:43:54,876
not even be spendable. And so we're not tracking, we are now tracking things that are useless to

617
00:43:54,876 --> 00:43:59,436
track because they might not be spendable. So we're talking about some very extreme cases,

618
00:43:59,436 --> 00:44:06,075
like the stamps, for example, which is like a type of NFT or something like that. Like to,

619
00:44:06,075 --> 00:44:12,235
Anyway, it's a very bad idea to do this. Gladly, they are not doing much of it because it's not

620
00:44:12,235 --> 00:44:21,595
efficient, but it's very hurtful for Bitcoin nodes. Any type of transaction that creates an output

621
00:44:21,595 --> 00:44:27,035
that we know is unspendable is terrible because we're going to have to store it. I'm not going

622
00:44:27,035 --> 00:44:32,795
to say forever. In the current architecture of Bitcoin, it is forever, but there is a lot of

623
00:44:32,795 --> 00:44:38,476
research going on about how we can prune this UTXO set as well. So typically the Floresta project

624
00:44:39,755 --> 00:44:45,115
or U3XO is very interesting for that. So that might be a thing to the future as well.

625
00:44:46,635 --> 00:44:51,835
And yeah, so it's just, there are like basically, yeah, the thing you can prune,

626
00:44:51,835 --> 00:44:57,515
so the blocks you can prune, and you can have a node that's like pruned to 500 megs of blocks.

627
00:44:57,515 --> 00:45:03,416
so very small but then on top of that you also have your utxo set which is probably 20 gigs today

628
00:45:03,416 --> 00:45:10,515
so the minimum size of the bitcoin node today is probably 20.5 gigs something like that

629
00:45:11,075 --> 00:45:18,195
yeah and i'm just looking at the last block uh as we're talking and there's a bunch of these um

630
00:45:18,195 --> 00:45:27,295
transactions for example i'm looking at one the amount uh was 330 sats and the fee to do that

631
00:45:27,295 --> 00:45:35,376
was 302 sats and yeah there's tons of these just in the last block so this is the type of

632
00:45:35,376 --> 00:45:40,495
transaction that you're talking about these are going into blocks and they're never ever going

633
00:45:40,495 --> 00:45:48,315
to be spent so they are literally just bloating the utxo set yes probably yeah so again we can't

634
00:45:48,315 --> 00:45:54,255
say for sure they will never be spent so that's also an interesting thing um because there is no

635
00:45:54,255 --> 00:46:02,976
limit on the dust. This is, again, a policy thing. So let's say if at some point what they are using

636
00:46:02,976 --> 00:46:06,976
this for, and probably the ones you're talking about, they might be like inscriptions or whatever.

637
00:46:06,976 --> 00:46:08,495
It's labeled as an inscription. Yeah.

638
00:46:08,495 --> 00:46:14,095
So if you imagine that what's kind of tied to it is becoming worthless, let's say in five years,

639
00:46:15,295 --> 00:46:21,055
nobody cares about any of this. It's absolutely worthless. But 300 sats might be actually worth

640
00:46:21,055 --> 00:46:26,255
something even if it's just one dollar right in five years so we do like 3x in price or something

641
00:46:26,255 --> 00:46:33,456
like that so if it's one dollar per utxo now you're like oh wait maybe it makes sense to actually

642
00:46:33,456 --> 00:46:39,295
spend them right so these ones are kind of interesting because the inscriptions they do

643
00:46:39,295 --> 00:46:44,255
have the private key otherwise they can't spend the inscription so they actually have the private

644
00:46:44,255 --> 00:46:50,655
key so it's technically still spendable now there are some like the stamps that are technically not

645
00:46:50,655 --> 00:46:52,396
spendable and this is the horrible

646
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:54,447
when they don't have a private key next to it.

647
00:46:55,007 --> 00:46:58,027
So there are different level of like how bad things can be.

648
00:46:58,547 --> 00:46:59,827
And when you don't have a private key,

649
00:46:59,887 --> 00:47:02,527
when there is no way to spend it except quantum computers,

650
00:47:03,907 --> 00:47:05,887
this is like, yeah, this is bad.

651
00:47:06,267 --> 00:47:09,727
And this is also the reason for the whole kind of drama

652
00:47:09,727 --> 00:47:13,507
recently on Twitter because, yeah,

653
00:47:13,567 --> 00:47:18,367
one of these layer twos called Citria, whatever.

654
00:47:18,367 --> 00:47:26,587
But yeah, one of these layer two had a kind of a punishment transaction, kind of like Lightning does.

655
00:47:27,327 --> 00:47:32,067
So in Lightning, you have this thing that typically you collaborate with the other end of the channel.

656
00:47:32,207 --> 00:47:35,347
So if you want to close a channel, you will close it with them, et cetera, et cetera.

657
00:47:35,627 --> 00:47:45,827
But if someone is trying to cheat, you have kind of an emergency that you want to push your defense transaction to actually make sure the thief cannot take away your money.

658
00:47:45,827 --> 00:47:52,387
So in Lightning, you have a unilateral emergency close in case the other party is trying to steal from you.

659
00:47:53,127 --> 00:47:54,267
And this is time sensitive.

660
00:47:54,527 --> 00:48:00,187
So it has to go through as quick as possible because if the other transaction goes through before that,

661
00:48:00,327 --> 00:48:05,527
or there is a time lock, but if the time lock expires before that, the other party can steal your money.

662
00:48:05,667 --> 00:48:10,507
So that's the entire defense mechanism of the Lightning network is that you have this kind of transaction

663
00:48:10,507 --> 00:48:15,207
that you can actually defend yourself if the other party is trying to cheat.

664
00:48:15,207 --> 00:48:18,807
And so this layer two, this T3, I think, is kind of similar.

665
00:48:19,227 --> 00:48:23,107
So they have a kind of defense transaction thing

666
00:48:23,107 --> 00:48:26,867
that supposedly would never be used, kind of like in Lightning,

667
00:48:27,147 --> 00:48:28,207
but it could happen.

668
00:48:28,927 --> 00:48:31,987
And so because it's a time-sensitive transaction,

669
00:48:32,447 --> 00:48:37,907
they want it to spread through the network as fast as possible, right?

670
00:48:38,067 --> 00:48:40,767
So they kind of want to not use the slipstream

671
00:48:40,767 --> 00:48:44,707
or they don't want to use the minor out-of-band thing

672
00:48:44,707 --> 00:48:49,687
because, again, statistically, we don't know which miner is going to mine the next block.

673
00:48:50,267 --> 00:48:53,707
And so it's better if every miner gets this one and so it can be mined.

674
00:48:54,667 --> 00:48:59,147
And so it's very important for them that it relays through the normal Bitcoin network.

675
00:49:00,067 --> 00:49:07,567
And so the thing they are writing in there, the data they are putting,

676
00:49:07,647 --> 00:49:09,707
because it's a layer two, so they're putting a state there.

677
00:49:10,427 --> 00:49:12,107
I don't know how big it is.

678
00:49:12,107 --> 00:49:13,087
It's not very big.

679
00:49:13,087 --> 00:49:17,147
it's like, yeah, just a few hundred bytes.

680
00:49:17,327 --> 00:49:19,267
It's really small, very, very small.

681
00:49:19,407 --> 00:49:21,367
It's smaller than a normal transaction in that sense.

682
00:49:21,887 --> 00:49:24,487
So it's pretty small the amount of data they put,

683
00:49:24,687 --> 00:49:27,387
but it's still bigger than a normal up return.

684
00:49:28,327 --> 00:49:31,747
And so because you could do only one up return,

685
00:49:31,967 --> 00:49:35,107
well, you can right now do only one up return per transaction,

686
00:49:35,647 --> 00:49:37,327
what they were planning to do

687
00:49:37,327 --> 00:49:40,787
or what their testing transaction was,

688
00:49:40,787 --> 00:49:41,927
was to fill the up return

689
00:49:41,927 --> 00:49:44,067
because that's like the normal way or the normal,

690
00:49:44,567 --> 00:49:46,727
the way to put data there to be relayed.

691
00:49:47,187 --> 00:49:48,727
And then because it was bigger than that,

692
00:49:48,847 --> 00:49:51,567
then they were creating two more UTXOs,

693
00:49:51,727 --> 00:49:54,487
but the ones without a private key to put the data there.

694
00:49:54,847 --> 00:49:55,927
And that is horrible.

695
00:49:56,727 --> 00:50:00,247
So even though it's probably never going to be used,

696
00:50:00,467 --> 00:50:02,207
so their approach was that, you know,

697
00:50:02,247 --> 00:50:03,827
it's just there in case there is a problem.

698
00:50:03,967 --> 00:50:06,827
We might never even write any of these transactions,

699
00:50:07,627 --> 00:50:11,727
but because it's there and it could potentially go bad,

700
00:50:11,727 --> 00:50:15,407
the idea was like, yeah, that's just terrible.

701
00:50:15,727 --> 00:50:17,667
Like UTXO set should never be used for that.

702
00:50:18,307 --> 00:50:20,587
An up return is actually pruned, right?

703
00:50:20,767 --> 00:50:24,307
Up return, the whole point of it is that you don't store it

704
00:50:24,307 --> 00:50:26,227
in the UTXO set we were talking about before.

705
00:50:26,427 --> 00:50:27,887
That's the whole point of up return.

706
00:50:28,687 --> 00:50:31,907
And so the idea was just to increase the up return size

707
00:50:31,907 --> 00:50:36,267
to not create any of these new UTXOs.

708
00:50:36,747 --> 00:50:40,007
So that's basically the thing about the entire drama.

709
00:50:40,007 --> 00:50:44,347
a lot of people are thinking it's related to like these JPEGs or NFTs, but it's actually not,

710
00:50:44,467 --> 00:50:52,087
it's nothing to do with it. It's not worth for any of these NFT people or these images, JPEGs people,

711
00:50:52,347 --> 00:50:58,567
it's not worth paying the price of even an up return. It just makes no sense. It's like way

712
00:50:58,567 --> 00:51:04,627
too expensive compared to the other ways they can store data in Bitcoin. That is not going to be

713
00:51:04,627 --> 00:51:09,207
relayed right now, but they don't care. There is no urgency when you do a JPEG on Bitcoin,

714
00:51:09,207 --> 00:51:15,127
they don't care. They can wait a few blocks. So it was just a very narrow niche thing that happened

715
00:51:15,687 --> 00:51:21,287
where some developers had a niche problem that they needed to have this emergency transaction

716
00:51:21,287 --> 00:51:27,367
to go through as fast as possible. But the only way to propagate that was actually to create some

717
00:51:28,087 --> 00:51:35,607
unspendable UTXOs, which is very bad. And so the Bitcoin call approach was like, okay,

718
00:51:35,607 --> 00:51:40,527
okay, let's just increase the operator and thing because it's like,

719
00:51:40,527 --> 00:51:45,027
it's the least bad thing for this specific use case. And yeah,

720
00:51:45,027 --> 00:51:50,127
that's basically the whole drama. So big discussion, a lot of misunderstanding.

721
00:51:50,127 --> 00:51:54,267
A lot of people think now like a lot of JPEGs are going to be put in up return.

722
00:51:54,267 --> 00:51:58,107
I would really bet money that it's not happening because it's four times more

723
00:51:58,107 --> 00:52:00,747
expensive than putting it elsewhere. So.

724
00:52:00,747 --> 00:52:08,027
yeah mate well the debate will rage on it doesn't look as though it's going to end anytime soon

725
00:52:08,027 --> 00:52:16,227
yeah i actually don't think so i think it will uh it will just die out uh very soon um yeah i

726
00:52:16,227 --> 00:52:21,407
because it's going to be a nothing burger uh we will see that people don't use up return it's too

727
00:52:21,407 --> 00:52:26,747
expensive so people don't use the up return to put data it's too expensive it's just this this

728
00:52:26,747 --> 00:52:32,907
expensive thing incentives is what the game is about and so if it's too expensive and we're

729
00:52:32,907 --> 00:52:37,987
talking four times more expensive uh people are not gonna use it like nobody likes to burn money

730
00:52:37,987 --> 00:52:45,587
for no reason no that yeah that's the thing um and this is where you know people need to put their

731
00:52:45,587 --> 00:52:53,487
tinfoil hats on it's like who's actually putting this in is it just the dgens uh i don't think so

732
00:52:53,487 --> 00:52:57,927
I think like they would have got tired of doing this a long, long time ago.

733
00:52:58,047 --> 00:53:00,547
Or is it coming from much deeper pockets?

734
00:53:01,307 --> 00:53:03,047
And, you know, why is it still happening?

735
00:53:03,787 --> 00:53:04,307
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

736
00:53:04,307 --> 00:53:05,427
No, I agree with you.

737
00:53:05,607 --> 00:53:09,567
I do believe a lot of it is probably like money laundering type stuff,

738
00:53:09,647 --> 00:53:11,887
like it was on Ethereum and other chains.

739
00:53:12,787 --> 00:53:16,787
But even though it's like you don't want to pay four times more fees

740
00:53:16,787 --> 00:53:20,227
just because, so you put it elsewhere, right?

741
00:53:20,687 --> 00:53:22,587
And then if it was malicious people,

742
00:53:22,587 --> 00:53:32,467
So if we were talking about like somebody attacking the network, we cannot prevent them to do the UTXO set creation.

743
00:53:32,747 --> 00:53:41,107
And so that's a major issue in Bitcoin is that we know that if people really want to spam the UTXO set, they can.

744
00:53:42,667 --> 00:53:48,007
And yeah, nothing we can do about it because like we really cannot do anything about it today.

745
00:53:48,007 --> 00:53:52,007
because right now a UTXO, what does it look like?

746
00:53:52,047 --> 00:53:53,167
It's a Bitcoin address, right?

747
00:53:54,267 --> 00:53:56,107
A Bitcoin address, when you look at it,

748
00:53:56,607 --> 00:53:58,227
you don't know if it's valid or not.

749
00:53:58,347 --> 00:53:59,707
I mean, what is valid?

750
00:53:59,847 --> 00:54:01,447
We would need the private key to know that.

751
00:54:01,707 --> 00:54:03,907
And you don't give your private key when you give an address.

752
00:54:04,047 --> 00:54:05,467
It's just like, it's just an address.

753
00:54:05,587 --> 00:54:06,287
That's the whole point.

754
00:54:07,027 --> 00:54:10,127
And so, yeah, people can write data to that.

755
00:54:10,687 --> 00:54:12,627
And if they just write data to that,

756
00:54:12,687 --> 00:54:13,707
they don't have a private key,

757
00:54:13,707 --> 00:54:15,187
but they don't need a private key to write.

758
00:54:15,187 --> 00:54:21,627
like you don't need a private key to send money to an address right uh at least to receive it and so

759
00:54:21,627 --> 00:54:29,547
yeah that's the main issue because it is quite cheap still today to just create a transaction

760
00:54:29,547 --> 00:54:36,107
with like hundreds or even thousands of outputs and maybe none of these outputs are real so if

761
00:54:36,107 --> 00:54:40,747
you just wanted to hurt the network if you were like a government or whatever uh you could just

762
00:54:40,747 --> 00:54:46,147
do that and the UTXO set would grow and grow and grow and there is just no solution there is none

763
00:54:46,147 --> 00:54:53,507
we cannot that's the worry is actually to prove who is who and that means KYC we're not going to

764
00:54:53,507 --> 00:54:58,887
do KYC on Bitcoin like on the blockchain like this is not happening so yeah that is the worry

765
00:54:58,887 --> 00:55:05,847
if you have a state sponsored attack uh with infinite amount of cash that they can just print

766
00:55:05,847 --> 00:55:08,547
whenever they want or a central bank attack.

767
00:55:09,607 --> 00:55:13,107
Yeah, that's where the real worry lies.

768
00:55:13,887 --> 00:55:17,847
But the good news or the good or the bad news

769
00:55:17,847 --> 00:55:20,167
is that there are still a lot of other attacks

770
00:55:20,167 --> 00:55:22,507
that are much easier and cheaper to do.

771
00:55:23,747 --> 00:55:24,647
That's the good news.

772
00:55:25,167 --> 00:55:27,967
That's kind of the good news is that even that as an attack

773
00:55:27,967 --> 00:55:30,267
is probably not happening because the other attacks

774
00:55:30,267 --> 00:55:31,647
are just kind of easier.

775
00:55:32,387 --> 00:55:33,587
Well, anyway, all right.

776
00:55:33,647 --> 00:55:34,387
So we've done that.

777
00:55:34,387 --> 00:55:40,387
we've done uh liana uh did you want to talk about revolt sure yeah we can talk about revolt a little

778
00:55:40,387 --> 00:55:46,547
bit and then uh yeah we will see after that if we have time but revolt is also interesting in the

779
00:55:46,547 --> 00:55:53,427
sense that it might be related to covenant and uh and there are some discussions now about ctv csfs

780
00:55:53,427 --> 00:55:59,027
which is like potentially a softball coming up so revolt revolt is actually why we created this

781
00:55:59,027 --> 00:56:07,507
company in the first place um so a investment fund that invests in bitcoin uh reached out to me

782
00:56:08,227 --> 00:56:17,267
end of 2019 um to actually do kind of a research on how they could secure their bitcoin

783
00:56:18,947 --> 00:56:24,867
while a group of them were owning the fund so they were controlling the bitcoin if you want

784
00:56:24,867 --> 00:56:43,060
But they wanted a couple of traders from their company to be able to spend from it but not to empty the wallet And I like this is weird So you asking me like you want to control the coins but you actually want two other people to have access to it So to be able to delegate the access basically

785
00:56:43,860 --> 00:56:49,180
while still kind of retaining a way to prevent them from stealing the money.

786
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,120
I'm like, either they have the money or they don't.

787
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:52,860
Like, it's how it works.

788
00:56:53,100 --> 00:56:54,960
And they really wanted self-custody.

789
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:58,840
So, of course, if you go on a platform, like a professional platform,

790
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:03,560
a custodian they will give you the same kind of control as an online banking where you have like

791
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:09,560
the admins then you can give some i don't know like a trader account with specific limits per day

792
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:15,240
or things like that but you can't do that on chain on bitcoin like a limit of spending per day on

793
00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:21,560
bitcoin on chain is not possible and so there's been a lot of research on that since 2013 and

794
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,400
And that's actually what we call the covenants.

795
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:29,900
So the actual name of the kind of mechanism

796
00:57:29,900 --> 00:57:32,020
to let you delegate funds to someone

797
00:57:32,020 --> 00:57:35,960
and being able to claw back the funds or put limits

798
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:37,720
is actually a vault.

799
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,640
But now, kind of like wallet, a vault

800
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,200
is used by many people for different reasons.

801
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,660
So a lot of people, for example, call a multisig a vault.

802
00:57:46,660 --> 00:57:48,180
I don't do that.

803
00:57:48,180 --> 00:57:52,200
a vault is a very specific transaction type on Bitcoin

804
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,180
that was defined in 2013, so a long time ago.

805
00:57:55,700 --> 00:57:58,1000
It's when you have a multiple stage Bitcoin transaction on chain.

806
00:57:59,340 --> 00:58:02,020
So the first stage is to kind of like unvault,

807
00:58:02,140 --> 00:58:05,360
so unlock your coins from being super safe

808
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,740
to go in a staging type transaction

809
00:58:08,740 --> 00:58:11,660
where they are waiting there for a specific amount of time

810
00:58:11,660 --> 00:58:15,440
before they get actually released to finalize the transaction.

811
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:17,780
And while they are in this staging area,

812
00:58:18,180 --> 00:58:23,540
the owners of the funds can actually claw it back. So they can actually get the funds back to

813
00:58:23,540 --> 00:58:29,300
themselves. So you can see, oh, funds are actually going to move. And then you have a pretty long

814
00:58:29,300 --> 00:58:34,100
amount of time when you can define it, but typically a few hours or days even where you can

815
00:58:34,100 --> 00:58:39,620
press a button to actually cancel the transaction. But this is on chain already. So this is pretty

816
00:58:39,620 --> 00:58:45,860
cool. That's what a vault does. It's really useful for like very deep cold storage stuff

817
00:58:45,860 --> 00:58:50,660
where you don't want to transact with it, but you want to move it to a hotter wallet, for example,

818
00:58:51,940 --> 00:58:55,780
or when you want to actually delegate some of your funds to someone else.

819
00:58:55,780 --> 00:59:00,500
And so the way we were doing, the research was like, can we do that on Bitcoin today?

820
00:59:01,300 --> 00:59:07,220
And until now, for the past more than a decade now, all the conclusions and all the scientific

821
00:59:07,220 --> 00:59:12,740
paper were that it was not possible without adding covenants to Bitcoin. And so covenants are a way

822
00:59:12,740 --> 00:59:18,980
to restrict transactions in its outputs itself. So not just the inputs, not just timelocks,

823
00:59:18,980 --> 00:59:24,100
but actually saying conditions to the outputs like, okay, from this wallet, you can only spend

824
00:59:24,100 --> 00:59:30,020
to this list of addresses. It will never go to extra addresses, for example. Or you could imagine

825
00:59:30,020 --> 00:59:36,100
like the maximum amount of transaction you can do per output, per transaction, etc. And so there's

826
00:59:36,100 --> 00:59:41,860
been a lot of research on Bitcoin for that. And my view in 2019 was that we're never going to see

827
00:59:41,860 --> 00:59:48,100
covenant or at least not anytime soon a lot of people disagreed with me but so far i've been

828
00:59:48,100 --> 00:59:53,380
proven right so in 2019 i was like it's probably not possible but let me do the research and i

829
00:59:53,380 --> 00:59:59,860
actually came up with an architecture uh to do a bitcoin vault without requiring any change in the

830
00:59:59,860 --> 01:00:05,220
in the bitcoin protocol um so that's probably my like lifetime contribution to bitcoin i don't think

831
01:00:05,220 --> 01:00:11,220
i will ever be able to come up with something like that um so i was super excited sent it to

832
01:00:11,220 --> 01:00:17,540
the bitcoin mailing list tried to get some feedback uh it worked out and so then i got uh

833
01:00:17,540 --> 01:00:23,620
antoine poiseau which who is now actually a chain code and part of all the drama uh recently so he's

834
01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:28,580
he's making his name now but um antoine poiseau joined me actually to build a prototype of this

835
01:00:29,540 --> 01:00:34,980
and um and after like two three weeks we had a working prototype of a vault without

836
01:00:34,980 --> 01:00:40,980
uh covenants which was insane and so i was like okay let's try to build that the company the

837
01:00:40,980 --> 01:00:45,780
investment funds that funded the research didn't have enough funding to build the whole product.

838
01:00:47,300 --> 01:00:54,020
This is why we created the company. I raised some funds from Bitcoin VCs and we actually went along

839
01:00:54,020 --> 01:01:02,260
with the Revolt product. Problem is Revolt is still very complex to deploy. It's not a software

840
01:01:02,260 --> 01:01:08,100
you install on your computer. It requires servers, watchtowers, a lot of stuff. So it works. But

841
01:01:08,100 --> 01:01:11,600
But yeah, as far as I know, nobody is using it in production right now.

842
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,380
So it's a very cool project and product.

843
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:17,140
But yeah, too complex, sadly, for today.

844
01:01:17,940 --> 01:01:20,600
Too complex for the majority of users.

845
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:21,740
No, no, no, no, no.

846
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,380
This was already targeted only at very large institutions.

847
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:34,1000
So yeah, Revolt is built in a way that it's designed for resisting nation state attackers.

848
01:01:34,1000 --> 01:01:40,820
So a government holding Bitcoin could deploy revolt to be sure that nobody can steal their coins.

849
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:48,800
It was built from the starting point that the attacker is a nation state funded level attacker.

850
01:01:49,180 --> 01:01:53,440
So it is the most secure thing you can get out there for storing your Bitcoin.

851
01:01:54,100 --> 01:01:55,880
The problem is it's extremely complex.

852
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,080
It sounds like the sailors should be on the phone to you right now.

853
01:02:00,460 --> 01:02:00,1000
Oh, it should be.

854
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:01,680
Yeah.

855
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:03,620
But no, they don't want to.

856
01:02:03,620 --> 01:02:05,060
They prefer to use a custodian.

857
01:02:05,700 --> 01:02:06,420
So, yeah.

858
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:11,420
But like early days when sailors started the thing, I was like, okay, that's the perfect use case for me.

859
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:11,640
Right.

860
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:17,120
So I was talking to all the exchanges, all the large exchanges, because they have a stash of Bitcoin.

861
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:17,480
Right.

862
01:02:18,140 --> 01:02:24,620
I was talking to the large holders and yeah, no, the sailors of this world, they don't care.

863
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:25,780
It's Coinbase and Fidelity.

864
01:02:26,220 --> 01:02:29,520
It's not going to be deployed in-house.

865
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:35,200
Fidelity, for example, also had then their research on Bitcoin vaults.

866
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:41,080
They even had a team building one in-house, but they decided to not put it in production either.

867
01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:45,680
So, yeah, sadly, people don't push enough.

868
01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:56,040
It's I don't know about you, mate, but we talked about honey pots earlier and that these places, you know.

869
01:02:56,040 --> 01:03:06,580
if if a government decides like right let's uh 6102 attack this um this network and confiscate

870
01:03:06,580 --> 01:03:15,520
uh everybody's bitcoin because we want it to and we will build a a new world reserve currency

871
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:20,360
around it and then re-hypothecate the shit out of it like they'll just take this bitcoin like

872
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:29,300
an order will be signed and um over it comes especially if it's held with like you know

873
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:34,840
registered businesses because if the business is registered under that jurisdiction then it is the

874
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:43,380
government's by like i think we lost this war when the etfs were approved so when the etfs

875
01:03:43,380 --> 01:03:50,1000
got approved, it created a massive risk to Bitcoin, in my opinion. People didn't see it that way.

876
01:03:51,060 --> 01:03:58,280
Everyone was excited because a number grew up. But to me, the ETF is the thing that's the main

877
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:04,580
risk. So it's not even the government confiscating coins. It's like if anything happened to Coinbase,

878
01:04:04,580 --> 01:04:09,440
if anything happens, right, they lose their keys, they get their funds stolen, anything happens,

879
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:16,540
who is losing money well the ETFs is basically the pension funds and so that's the thing that

880
01:04:16,540 --> 01:04:21,540
people don't understand the ETF is not the average investor it's the large institutional

881
01:04:21,540 --> 01:04:26,940
institutional investor that's basically dealing with other people's money typically pensioners

882
01:04:26,940 --> 01:04:34,500
and they couldn't buy Bitcoin directly for legal reasons and yeah so now that they have the ETF

883
01:04:34,500 --> 01:04:38,140
it's perfectly normal for them to put billions into this.

884
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:42,340
So the problem is if anything happens to the money at Coinbase, for example,

885
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:45,040
then what happens?

886
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,840
You have millions, for sure millions of people

887
01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:51,140
who didn't even know they had Bitcoin exposure

888
01:04:51,140 --> 01:04:54,160
that are going to know they actually had Bitcoin exposure

889
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:55,700
through their pension funds.

890
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:57,940
And they're going to be like, what the fuck?

891
01:04:58,500 --> 01:05:00,880
And so everyone is going to start suing each other.

892
01:05:01,700 --> 01:05:03,1000
And now you have entire governments,

893
01:05:03,1000 --> 01:05:11,500
typically the US government in this case, that have to deal with millions of pensioners that lost their money or part of their money,

894
01:05:12,100 --> 01:05:17,920
with pension funds potentially blowing up, etc. And then it's catastrophic.

895
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:24,440
So there is no way, we talked about political suicide at the beginning, but again, I think this is one,

896
01:05:24,540 --> 01:05:29,380
like there is no way for a government to be like, oh, well, it's Bitcoin, there is nothing we can do.

897
01:05:29,380 --> 01:05:35,120
no way we're talking about millions of people didn't sign up for any of that that lost their

898
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:42,100
coins um they're gonna be a lot of problems there um it might even go through like um yeah taking

899
01:05:42,100 --> 01:05:46,820
over the mining farms in the u.s trying to roll back the chain i mean we're talking about u.s

900
01:05:46,820 --> 01:05:51,540
government type stuff trying to save millions of people right doesn't matter how much money they

901
01:05:51,540 --> 01:05:58,300
lost it's millions of people so they kind of have to it's like it's their job to save the population

902
01:05:58,300 --> 01:06:01,620
So to me, this is where we lost.

903
01:06:01,620 --> 01:06:03,660
It's when the ETFs came online.

904
01:06:04,460 --> 01:06:07,060
Because you're delegating your money to them.

905
01:06:07,060 --> 01:06:07,940
You don't know what they do.

906
01:06:07,940 --> 01:06:10,740
And then when they lose the money, who are you going to blame?

907
01:06:12,060 --> 01:06:15,140
Now, in reality, yeah.

908
01:06:15,420 --> 01:06:31,792
Will government start seizing Bitcoin I don know Possibly You right with this If it becomes really a strategic asset not You know they did it in the past they will do it again Could be also like haircuts could be oh if you have more than I don know 100 Bitcoin

909
01:06:31,792 --> 01:06:35,532
in your Coinbase account, we're going to say it's dodgy, so we're going to take everything

910
01:06:35,532 --> 01:06:36,352
over 100 Bitcoin.

911
01:06:36,532 --> 01:06:37,792
You know, it could be haircut like that.

912
01:06:38,912 --> 01:06:45,832
But the current risk we see in the security side of Bitcoin is that there is more and

913
01:06:45,832 --> 01:06:51,672
more, it's actually a meme, but it's not a meme, more and more North Korean attackers

914
01:06:51,672 --> 01:07:00,972
that are really getting close to this money. So we know for sure that working at Coinbase full time,

915
01:07:00,972 --> 01:07:07,792
you have quite a few assets, typically from North Korea and other nations. So this is starting to

916
01:07:07,792 --> 01:07:13,552
be documented. You have actually a pretty good blog article from Kraken on this. So they actually

917
01:07:13,552 --> 01:07:21,492
caught one that went pretty high in their hiring process. So they are fully state funded. So fake

918
01:07:21,492 --> 01:07:29,592
passport, fake everything, fake addresses. They look like normal people with the skills to get

919
01:07:29,592 --> 01:07:36,112
the job. It's not just fake stuff. They have actual engineers on these calls trying to get

920
01:07:36,112 --> 01:07:41,832
into the company and they will work in the company for months, if not years before actually

921
01:07:41,832 --> 01:07:46,852
getting through either trying to leak some security stuff,

922
01:07:47,272 --> 01:07:50,572
installing some malware, and maybe at some point getting access to the coins.

923
01:07:50,972 --> 01:07:53,932
So we know this is a reality now in these very large companies

924
01:07:53,932 --> 01:07:57,752
and these very large exchanges that, yeah,

925
01:07:58,012 --> 01:08:02,392
a portion of their employees is basically state assets from different countries.

926
01:08:02,952 --> 01:08:05,372
And so this is starting to be scary and nobody cares.

927
01:08:06,372 --> 01:08:07,592
That's wild.

928
01:08:08,792 --> 01:08:10,392
Yeah, there is actually, yeah.

929
01:08:10,392 --> 01:08:14,512
And I know the large exchanges have like communication channels between them.

930
01:08:14,512 --> 01:08:19,592
So between the CSOs to actually report these applicants and things like that.

931
01:08:19,672 --> 01:08:25,572
So they are tracking who could be a potentially bad applicants and they are trying to track them toward like between companies.

932
01:08:25,772 --> 01:08:29,112
So they actually collaborate with each other to make sure it doesn't happen too much.

933
01:08:29,592 --> 01:08:30,592
But for sure, it's happening.

934
01:08:30,772 --> 01:08:31,092
Yeah.

935
01:08:31,092 --> 01:08:31,432
Yeah.

936
01:08:31,792 --> 01:08:36,872
I mean, well, the most recent thing with Coinbase where, I mean, according to Brian Armstrong,

937
01:08:36,872 --> 01:08:45,812
somebody was paid off to release a bunch of email addresses and account details from one of their

938
01:08:45,812 --> 01:08:54,312
like I don't know offshore customer service like you know what are you saying like this is

939
01:08:54,312 --> 01:09:00,252
and we'll make you all good and we'll give you all your money back and uh oh my god so that was

940
01:09:00,252 --> 01:09:16,752
I mean, or was that just a cover up for we've got a mole within our organization that's doing all of this and we just can't catch them and just blame it on some offshore customer service center, you know?

941
01:09:18,472 --> 01:09:22,932
Yeah, and basically you will never know and they might never know either.

942
01:09:22,932 --> 01:09:32,492
so it's really that when you have nation state level attackers it's very hard to fight against

943
01:09:32,492 --> 01:09:37,432
them right like coinbase is a normal company in that sense they are like a bunch of early people

944
01:09:37,432 --> 01:09:43,712
that started a startup probably like the the first 20 employees are still there you know in

945
01:09:43,712 --> 01:09:49,852
high positions they they have no kind of specific training to deal with a nation state attacker you

946
01:09:49,852 --> 01:09:55,352
know being their employees there it's just complicated no and canute uh did a thread about

947
01:09:55,352 --> 01:10:01,612
this recently uh on his bitcoin infinity media um thread uh and it's a thread and he's got a

948
01:10:01,612 --> 01:10:06,572
picture of morpheus um it's like do you think the system is going to just roll over and let bitcoin

949
01:10:06,572 --> 01:10:14,492
win like uh you know and he goes through the thread and we we would we would be so naive

950
01:10:14,492 --> 01:10:22,952
to just dispel all of this stuff as oh it's just conspiracy theory it's like no they're here

951
01:10:22,952 --> 01:10:30,412
like nation-state level attackers and why and why wouldn't they be like you know absolutely

952
01:10:30,412 --> 01:10:37,732
they're behind yeah they are here and and uh and also yeah the the kind of impact is getting

953
01:10:37,732 --> 01:10:42,852
different over time so we know that north korea is funding themselves through uh stealing money

954
01:10:42,852 --> 01:10:44,312
from random hacks, right?

955
01:10:44,352 --> 01:10:45,432
All of these exchanges.

956
01:10:46,212 --> 01:10:47,992
And that's just the simple thing.

957
01:10:48,072 --> 01:10:49,552
It's like they steal money

958
01:10:49,552 --> 01:10:51,292
so they can fund their operations.

959
01:10:51,532 --> 01:10:52,052
And that's fine.

960
01:10:52,152 --> 01:10:55,292
They get billions of dollars per year now at this stage.

961
01:10:55,392 --> 01:10:57,412
So it's actually a very large funding

962
01:10:57,412 --> 01:10:58,732
for something like North Korea.

963
01:11:00,532 --> 01:11:02,292
And the problem is that

964
01:11:02,292 --> 01:11:04,572
when you are talking about things that are larger,

965
01:11:04,572 --> 01:11:06,932
like Fidelity, like Coinbase and things like that,

966
01:11:07,412 --> 01:11:10,012
it's now starting to not be just for the money

967
01:11:10,012 --> 01:11:11,292
because it's too large anyway.

968
01:11:11,572 --> 01:11:12,752
So the money would just go down.

969
01:11:12,852 --> 01:11:16,372
but it's really like how bad it impacts the economy.

970
01:11:16,812 --> 01:11:20,312
It would really collapse some of the economy in the US

971
01:11:20,312 --> 01:11:22,272
if something like Coinbase disappear.

972
01:11:22,612 --> 01:11:24,772
As I was saying again, you know, like the pension funds

973
01:11:24,772 --> 01:11:25,492
and things like that.

974
01:11:25,992 --> 01:11:27,192
This would be crazy.

975
01:11:27,532 --> 01:11:30,532
Or MicroStrategy, which is now SP500, right?

976
01:11:30,592 --> 01:11:34,052
So it does have an impact if they even break things.

977
01:11:34,052 --> 01:11:35,912
They don't even have to steal it, which is crazy.

978
01:11:37,132 --> 01:11:37,292
Yeah.

979
01:11:37,972 --> 01:11:38,592
All right.

980
01:11:38,672 --> 01:11:39,012
Okay.

981
01:11:39,292 --> 01:11:41,572
So what was the last thing you wanted to talk about

982
01:11:41,572 --> 01:11:43,072
before we sign off?

983
01:11:45,312 --> 01:11:46,732
What can I talk about?

984
01:11:47,292 --> 01:11:49,372
Yeah, I mean, I think this was a good discussion

985
01:11:49,372 --> 01:11:53,412
and self-custody is, sadly,

986
01:11:53,792 --> 01:11:57,532
self-custody is actually in a kind of downwards trend right now.

987
01:11:58,472 --> 01:12:00,232
It's less fancy.

988
01:12:00,952 --> 01:12:04,532
A lot of people are talking about Bitcoin and holding their coins,

989
01:12:04,532 --> 01:12:07,532
but less and less are actually caring about self-custody.

990
01:12:07,532 --> 01:12:11,972
So I can tell you that because I really work in that.

991
01:12:11,972 --> 01:12:16,112
So these kind of numbers are pretty scary and it's not just me.

992
01:12:16,112 --> 01:12:18,512
It's also like the other wallet developers and things like that.

993
01:12:18,512 --> 01:12:20,772
We see a difference in terms of numbers.

994
01:12:20,772 --> 01:12:24,992
Yeah, less and less people are doing self-custody.

995
01:12:24,992 --> 01:12:31,052
Some people are even moving from self-custody to custodians because they are like, oh, this

996
01:12:31,052 --> 01:12:33,212
never had any issue and it seems simpler.

997
01:12:33,212 --> 01:12:35,732
I have too much stress, et cetera.

998
01:12:35,732 --> 01:12:41,932
so we do hear these kind of stories when people have now more money or more value in their bitcoin

999
01:12:41,932 --> 01:12:47,292
and they are just starting to be too scared to keep it themselves which i might understand in a

1000
01:12:47,292 --> 01:12:53,852
way right you have like some different risks you can be abducted whatever and uh yeah so

1001
01:12:53,852 --> 01:12:58,052
this kind of risk are starting to make people more scared of self-custody than

1002
01:12:58,052 --> 01:13:05,572
than of custodial services and yeah it's very bad for bitcoin right like centralization of money in

1003
01:13:05,572 --> 01:13:08,292
with one single point, Honeypot is terrible.

1004
01:13:08,972 --> 01:13:11,072
And so I'm not sure how we're going to fix this.

1005
01:13:11,512 --> 01:13:13,652
So education, I think, is good.

1006
01:13:13,752 --> 01:13:15,832
The tools are very good now as well.

1007
01:13:15,932 --> 01:13:17,752
Like we are in a much better place today

1008
01:13:17,752 --> 01:13:19,712
than we were like three, four years ago.

1009
01:13:21,032 --> 01:13:22,872
Multisig is super easy to do now.

1010
01:13:23,032 --> 01:13:24,812
It was very complex in the early days.

1011
01:13:25,452 --> 01:13:26,912
And when you look at the number,

1012
01:13:26,912 --> 01:13:28,772
it's like something that, like for example,

1013
01:13:28,952 --> 01:13:32,352
Spectre, the wallet software,

1014
01:13:32,352 --> 01:13:39,432
Spectre had I don't know like more than 10,000 users in the early days and it was very hard to

1015
01:13:39,432 --> 01:13:44,912
use and ugly and now you have very good software that comes out so typically Liana but you have

1016
01:13:44,912 --> 01:13:49,592
other right you have Nunchuck you have Keeper you have a lot of really cool state-of-the-art stuff

1017
01:13:49,592 --> 01:13:56,372
I'm quite sure if you put all of us together we're not at 10k users and this is scary like

1018
01:13:56,372 --> 01:14:05,012
very scary so yeah i'm not too sure how we can fix this if it's even fixable because uh

1019
01:14:05,012 --> 01:14:13,292
we we obviously like if you look at evolutions of money um banks didn't exist like magically right

1020
01:14:13,292 --> 01:14:18,212
it's just that people didn't feel comfortable keeping their money at home uh and so they started

1021
01:14:18,212 --> 01:14:24,472
pulling it together into banks because you know it's more secure uh so yeah if bitcoin goes the

1022
01:14:24,472 --> 01:14:29,752
same way that's kind of like not a not a good place because then we have all the risks of

1023
01:14:29,752 --> 01:14:35,712
centralization and things like that so yeah uh that was just a small rant but it's something we

1024
01:14:35,712 --> 01:14:41,972
see uh on a day-to-day basis that people have less interest or more fear of self-custody even though

1025
01:14:41,972 --> 01:14:47,872
the tools are just so much better now than they were even like three four years ago yeah so for

1026
01:14:47,872 --> 01:14:52,752
anybody listening that's going to the conferences either prague or riga or helsinki there will be

1027
01:14:52,752 --> 01:14:59,172
booths there go and talk to the uh the wallet makers go and talk to kevin like get in front of

1028
01:14:59,172 --> 01:15:06,272
these people up your knowledge because i think like education is key and um if people don't have

1029
01:15:06,272 --> 01:15:11,832
the right information on why it is so damn important to self-custody your bitcoin yeah

1030
01:15:11,832 --> 01:15:17,532
we're never and it's not hard and it's not hard like this is this is probably the main thing like

1031
01:15:17,532 --> 01:15:22,212
self-custody is just about, you know, installing an app on your phone.

1032
01:15:22,372 --> 01:15:23,752
I mean, this is the first step.

1033
01:15:23,952 --> 01:15:25,532
It doesn't have to be complicated.

1034
01:15:26,872 --> 01:15:27,572
All right.

1035
01:15:28,832 --> 01:15:30,752
Citadel, have you found yourself a Citadel?

1036
01:15:32,752 --> 01:15:33,552
Not yet.

1037
01:15:33,652 --> 01:15:38,032
So I am living in the Azores, which is a bunch of islands in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

1038
01:15:38,572 --> 01:15:43,732
One of the reasons why I came here was to try to make some kind of a Citadel.

1039
01:15:45,432 --> 01:15:47,292
But yeah, nothing happened.

1040
01:15:47,532 --> 01:15:48,412
It's still Portugal.

1041
01:15:48,672 --> 01:15:50,532
So it's extremely bureaucratic.

1042
01:15:51,112 --> 01:15:52,372
Not going to happen here.

1043
01:15:52,512 --> 01:15:53,732
So I don't know.

1044
01:15:53,912 --> 01:15:55,852
I'm still looking, to be honest.

1045
01:15:56,272 --> 01:15:58,172
I don't know where to move next.

1046
01:15:58,412 --> 01:16:02,672
And I'm not sure where the best place is going to be.

1047
01:16:02,952 --> 01:16:15,164
Maybe Prospera I mean that probably the ones that are the most advanced right now But yeah I really really interested in the topic as well Azor it a place I never been

1048
01:16:15,524 --> 01:16:17,244
I'd love to come and visit and check it out.

1049
01:16:17,304 --> 01:16:19,164
I know you've run a conference there a couple of times.

1050
01:16:19,304 --> 01:16:20,984
Are you doing the same thing or the Unconference?

1051
01:16:21,704 --> 01:16:22,584
Yeah, the Unconference.

1052
01:16:22,944 --> 01:16:25,484
I did run it twice.

1053
01:16:25,644 --> 01:16:25,764
Yeah.

1054
01:16:25,964 --> 01:16:28,904
And I canceled it last year because not enough people.

1055
01:16:29,084 --> 01:16:30,524
And this year because I don't have time.

1056
01:16:30,524 --> 01:16:32,924
So hopefully next year, but not sure yet.

1057
01:16:33,444 --> 01:16:34,124
All right, okay.

1058
01:16:34,424 --> 01:16:36,744
All right, well, we need to go and visit anyway.

1059
01:16:36,844 --> 01:16:37,464
It looks amazing.

1060
01:16:37,744 --> 01:16:39,304
So last question.

1061
01:16:39,584 --> 01:16:41,724
If you had one last orange pill left to give to somebody,

1062
01:16:41,884 --> 01:16:43,264
who would you give it to and why?

1063
01:16:47,284 --> 01:16:48,504
Oh, that's a tough one.

1064
01:16:49,784 --> 01:16:55,544
I mean, I would like to see kind of a good government,

1065
01:16:55,864 --> 01:16:57,524
but I don't believe in governments.

1066
01:16:57,524 --> 01:17:02,204
So it's just like, who would it be?

1067
01:17:03,444 --> 01:17:06,004
I actually don't know.

1068
01:17:06,784 --> 01:17:10,064
So I already orange-pilled my family somehow.

1069
01:17:10,564 --> 01:17:12,124
So that's kind of done.

1070
01:17:14,084 --> 01:17:18,004
I really think Bitcoin would solve a lot of the world's problem.

1071
01:17:18,544 --> 01:17:21,824
So a lot of people would probably benefit from it.

1072
01:17:23,264 --> 01:17:25,124
But yeah, I actually don't know who.

1073
01:17:25,684 --> 01:17:26,184
No idea.

1074
01:17:28,004 --> 01:17:29,584
This is an interesting question.

1075
01:17:31,544 --> 01:17:32,544
Well, no problem.

1076
01:17:32,544 --> 01:17:39,744
that you know i'm not gonna push you for an answer yeah i actually don't know okay that's

1077
01:17:39,744 --> 01:17:47,904
the first time that's ever happened over 500 shows like a bona fide i don't know yeah i think i think

1078
01:17:47,904 --> 01:17:53,584
everyone is aware of bitcoin right now so also that's a that's a big shift compared to like 10

1079
01:17:53,584 --> 01:17:58,224
years ago when you had to explain bitcoin to people before you even explained what you were working on

1080
01:17:58,224 --> 01:18:00,924
now people know what Bitcoin is

1081
01:18:00,924 --> 01:18:02,144
if they don't care about it

1082
01:18:02,144 --> 01:18:04,264
I mean it's their choice I guess

1083
01:18:04,264 --> 01:18:06,484
so you know everything is out there

1084
01:18:06,484 --> 01:18:07,664
the content is out there

1085
01:18:07,664 --> 01:18:09,684
the numbers are out there

1086
01:18:09,684 --> 01:18:10,984
everything is aligned

1087
01:18:10,984 --> 01:18:11,724
numbers go up

1088
01:18:11,724 --> 01:18:13,984
everything is there for them to look at it

1089
01:18:13,984 --> 01:18:15,684
so if they don't want to

1090
01:18:15,684 --> 01:18:17,304
I mean maybe they are just lost already

1091
01:18:17,304 --> 01:18:19,764
so a little anecdotal story for you

1092
01:18:19,764 --> 01:18:22,384
we were at our Bitcoin meetup last night

1093
01:18:22,384 --> 01:18:24,444
and four or five of us sitting around

1094
01:18:24,444 --> 01:18:25,844
and a new guy walks in

1095
01:18:25,844 --> 01:18:27,644
absolutely brand new

1096
01:18:27,644 --> 01:18:31,964
brand new to investing let alone bitcoin he's never invested in stocks and shares or anything

1097
01:18:31,964 --> 01:18:37,744
and uh found uh found out about the meetup and come and come and met us and his question was

1098
01:18:37,744 --> 01:18:43,484
just like well yeah as he'd listened to us talking well if you guys are all like you know

1099
01:18:43,484 --> 01:18:49,884
it doesn't sound as though you're in this for like you know to make money what what's it for

1100
01:18:49,884 --> 01:18:54,464
what are you going to use it for i'm all just looked at him and like well this is this is

1101
01:18:54,464 --> 01:19:01,484
generational wealth so that was kind of like to see him and his reaction he looked at us all around

1102
01:19:01,484 --> 01:19:08,744
the table he's like oh all right so this is a long term that we're like yeah like this is a

1103
01:19:08,744 --> 01:19:15,084
100 200 300 year thing uh which ties into what we talked about at the beginning here with

1104
01:19:15,084 --> 01:19:19,804
inheritance so thanks for what you're doing and thanks for building the products and uh and coming

1105
01:19:19,804 --> 01:19:24,164
on and talking about it and uh appreciate everything that you've done for the community

1106
01:19:24,164 --> 01:19:30,264
and i look forward to meeting you in helsinki if not riga if you make it over there yep yep that'd

1107
01:19:30,264 --> 01:19:36,724
be great and so uh if anyone listening uh is interested to try liana please do it it's just

1108
01:19:36,724 --> 01:19:41,424
about downloading a software you probably want to have a couple of hardware wallets as well

1109
01:19:41,424 --> 01:19:46,984
or signing device to try it out and uh yeah you can find more information on the website and we

1110
01:19:46,984 --> 01:19:52,024
have a telegram group as well to get help from other users so that's just the last thing i wanted

1111
01:19:52,024 --> 01:19:58,844
to add excellent well cheers kevin have a great day and thanks for coming on thank you bye see you

1112
01:19:58,844 --> 01:20:06,224
well thank you again kevin for everything that you have done for education around bitcoin and

1113
01:20:06,224 --> 01:20:12,524
the project and the software that you have built to help people take control of their bitcoin and

1114
01:20:12,524 --> 01:20:18,624
generational wealth. Let's talk about that for a bit because a lot of people might even gloss over

1115
01:20:18,624 --> 01:20:24,904
when you talk about it but that is because that the amount of gaslighting that's going on in the

1116
01:20:24,904 --> 01:20:33,424
mainstream media. If you just do a simple google search for spend the kids inheritance or ski

1117
01:20:33,424 --> 01:20:42,504
holiday something like that or skiing inheritance you will get hundreds of thousands of reports and

1118
01:20:42,504 --> 01:20:47,704
mainstream newspapers about how boomers, so they're talking about the boomers here,

1119
01:20:48,344 --> 01:20:56,304
are spending the kids' inheritance instead of saving for inheritance to pass down to them.

1120
01:20:57,044 --> 01:20:58,164
It's crazy.

1121
01:20:59,164 --> 01:21:06,944
This is the mindset now that's being pushed into that generation that holds all of the wealth.

1122
01:21:07,504 --> 01:21:11,764
They're being gaslit by financial advisors, by flapping heads on television,

1123
01:21:11,764 --> 01:21:15,244
by so-called financial experts and wizards.

1124
01:21:16,204 --> 01:21:18,184
Like, if I just click on one of these,

1125
01:21:19,264 --> 01:21:21,904
become.nz, this is one of the things.

1126
01:21:22,204 --> 01:21:26,784
Five reasons why you should spend your kid's inheritance in 2025.

1127
01:21:27,924 --> 01:21:31,304
One, life is way too short to delay having fun.

1128
01:21:31,824 --> 01:21:35,024
Two, there's a 50% chance your kids will blow it.

1129
01:21:35,624 --> 01:21:39,164
Three, your children won't remember the stuff.

1130
01:21:39,164 --> 01:21:56,364
4. Develop your children's values. If somebody was to die at the age of 80, we're talking about passing this down to a 50 year old adult, not children. This is absolute freaking nonsense.

1131
01:21:56,364 --> 01:22:01,104
5. Legal costs, delays and challenges to your will

1132
01:22:01,104 --> 01:22:04,064
This is absolute nonsense

1133
01:22:04,064 --> 01:22:07,544
and I'm so glad to be in the Bitcoin space now

1134
01:22:07,544 --> 01:22:12,264
and have these discussions about long-term generational planning

1135
01:22:12,264 --> 01:22:15,904
and unifying the family over generations

1136
01:22:15,904 --> 01:22:18,384
and passing down that education

1137
01:22:18,384 --> 01:22:20,104
and I'm sure many of you like me

1138
01:22:20,104 --> 01:22:22,204
you take this very, very seriously

1139
01:22:22,204 --> 01:22:28,564
and you will have for the next however many decades you're going to be on this planet and

1140
01:22:28,564 --> 01:22:34,844
however big you build your family out think of the amount of times you can have the conversation

1141
01:22:34,844 --> 01:22:44,904
around the dinner table about how you have to be very disciplined and very responsible with what

1142
01:22:44,904 --> 01:22:50,704
will be coming down i mean this isn't this isn't an idea that's just going to click in their minds

1143
01:22:50,704 --> 01:22:54,544
and especially if you've only got young kids but like I said you might be 35

1144
01:22:54,544 --> 01:22:58,804
years old you could live to a hundred you got plenty of time to instill that

1145
01:22:58,804 --> 01:23:06,124
education and my goodness do we need that education instilled to build to

1146
01:23:06,124 --> 01:23:11,944
build unified families again this is what the state despises this is why

1147
01:23:11,944 --> 01:23:15,964
they what did the gaslighting the boomers to spend blow go out there blow it

1148
01:23:15,964 --> 01:23:20,584
kickstart the economy that's great you know get that grey pound rolling

1149
01:23:20,584 --> 01:23:25,904
around the economy you know your kids won't need it and they end up begrudging

1150
01:23:25,904 --> 01:23:30,904
you when they're gone and like leaving this legacy of distaste and it's just

1151
01:23:30,904 --> 01:23:35,764
it's always everything they do is an attack on the family bitcoin fixes this

1152
01:23:35,764 --> 01:23:40,744
and the the tools are out there there's no excuse like I said at the beginning

1153
01:23:40,744 --> 01:23:44,264
there is no excuse for not taking self custody of your Bitcoin if you haven't

1154
01:23:44,264 --> 01:23:49,444
done that please heed this as your warning go and do it now reach out to

1155
01:23:49,444 --> 01:23:51,684
Kevin, if you've got anything you'd like to discuss with him,

1156
01:23:51,784 --> 01:23:55,664
reach out to me, reach out to any of the other hardware wallet makers

1157
01:23:55,664 --> 01:23:58,824
that you will want questions answered to,

1158
01:23:58,924 --> 01:24:01,204
or get to their websites, go to their Q&As,

1159
01:24:01,384 --> 01:24:04,084
get to a conference, go and speak to them at a booth.

1160
01:24:04,544 --> 01:24:06,304
But you can get up to speed quickly.

1161
01:24:06,304 --> 01:24:09,964
You can order yourself a Bitbox O2, Bitcoin-only edition.

1162
01:24:10,244 --> 01:24:13,304
It's bitbox.swiss forward slash Bitten.

1163
01:24:13,824 --> 01:24:16,004
Use the code Bitten for that 5% discount.

1164
01:24:16,344 --> 01:24:17,704
Don't leave this the chance, guys.

1165
01:24:17,804 --> 01:24:18,544
Please, seriously.

1166
01:24:19,444 --> 01:24:21,844
Bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten.

1167
01:24:23,124 --> 01:24:24,224
Stack your sats.

1168
01:24:24,564 --> 01:24:25,724
Swan across the US.

1169
01:24:25,964 --> 01:24:26,964
Relay across Europe.

1170
01:24:27,424 --> 01:24:31,404
Start curating your, excuse me, there's a jet flying over in the background.

1171
01:24:33,784 --> 01:24:41,564
Start curating your Bitcoin listening podcast 40 hours per week by using bubble.fm.

1172
01:24:41,704 --> 01:24:43,844
B-U-B-B-L.fm.

1173
01:24:44,404 --> 01:24:45,764
Get over to Fountain app.

1174
01:24:45,984 --> 01:24:48,164
Listen to your podcasts on Fountain.

1175
01:24:48,484 --> 01:24:49,204
That helps.

1176
01:24:49,204 --> 01:24:55,344
support the ecosystem and a company that is building out bitcoin parallel economy systems

1177
01:24:55,344 --> 01:25:01,684
plebeian.market to find your plebs as well as orange pill app to connect with as many people

1178
01:25:01,684 --> 01:25:07,044
as you can if you want to start accepting bitcoin for your goods and services there's one place in

1179
01:25:07,044 --> 01:25:15,944
town for you to go and head to that's paywithflash.com get over there get signed up start

1180
01:25:15,944 --> 01:25:20,264
pushing Bitcoin as a medium of exchange. Keep having these conversations with as many people

1181
01:25:20,264 --> 01:25:25,144
that you can meet. There are bars, restaurants, cafes, hairdressers, butchers, bakers, candlestick

1182
01:25:25,144 --> 01:25:31,224
makers. Always ask, just ask, do you accept Bitcoin? It's a touch point. And every touch

1183
01:25:31,224 --> 01:25:36,104
point delivered is just another flap of a butterfly wing in the Amazon rainforest, wherever

1184
01:25:36,104 --> 01:25:40,984
they live, when you have no idea the difference that will make as it ripples throughout the ether

1185
01:25:40,984 --> 01:25:47,184
and the rest of the world. Sounds a bit woo, keep trying it. Anyway, catch you guys soon,

1186
01:25:47,704 --> 01:25:52,484
thanks for listening, and stack safe. Get yourself a hardware wallet.