Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.
This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can
around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean
for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so
much for listening. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Once Bitten podcast.
Today we're joined by a bit saga, Robert, who runs that service and helps you, the discerning
young gentleman or lady that is stacking into Bitcoin and you need that little extra help
with your setup you want to cold storage your bitcoin but you want to do it properly correctly
maybe you're a little you know put off by the the technical aspect of things many people have been
in the past well you don't need to be anymore there are more services like this out there so
in the spirit of everything that we talk about here do your own research find the people that
you know maybe even in your area get out there have a look around Rob is doing a great job he's
been doing this for a little while now he has the technical know-how he's got people that were
willing to give him reviews so reach out to him as well once you've listened to this if you think
this is a service that you might want to follow up with before we get into it I just want to give a
big shout out to everybody that you know building products out there if you've not checked out
plebeian.market. Go and check it out. I know many of you listen to Dave Bennett's show as well. He's
been on a podcast a couple of times. Coming back on again, a real fun rip with him coming up. And
he talks about the Circle P. Well, plebeian.market, same kind of thing. People that are accepting
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Meanwhile, enjoy this rep with Rob.
All right, Robert, we're recording.
Great to meet you.
Great to be here, Daniel.
Thanks for the invite.
now Lauren would usually ask you the first question
that she's unfortunately not around
she's asked this question
before of
Jesse Myers and Andy
Edstrom and I would love
for her to be here to ask you
this but
she would ask you what is
multisig
what is multisig
let me
take the angle that it is
nothing new
it's also not tied to the digital space so basically it's protecting something with multiple
keys and i haven't taken this angle before but i like it just pops into my head it used to be
already applicable um hundreds of years ago in monasteries where there are key lock systems
where three or multiple people have keys
and you need not one but two keys to open,
to enter the altar, whatever, safe, sacred, golden thing is locked away.
And so that principle is already rather old
old and and the beautiful thing that that happens is in short is you eliminate the single point of
failure of having one key that one monk can get well his key can get stolen whatever um and and
these principles these evergreen principles these are very beautiful to um to see come back in
bitcoin right single point of failure we're all aware of that concept that's why decentralization
is so so strong so i'm already ranting here but multi-seek yeah protecting something with multiple
keys and it's already pretty ancient and i think it's a beautiful very underrated uh let's talk
more about it uh thing in bitcoin absolutely yeah absolutely and the reason uh i would have led her
so very well explained and a 13 year old would have absolutely understood 14 excuse me uh she
would have understood exactly what you're talking about. So BitSaga, that's what you've created.
So what is the premise of BitSaga and what is the offering? The premise, the offering is
navigating the complexity of securing your Bitcoin and not so much the why part of Bitcoin,
which is I guess many of the podcasts and you and content and books and talk about and we love
to talk about why we Bitcoin. The BitSaga approach is okay you get that part I want to have a piece
of my portfolio all in whatever in Bitcoin how do I do it? That's where BitSaga comes in because
we get rather quickly not your keys not your coins buy a harder wallet and stored offline
but that's not where it ends that's where it begins for a lot of situations and then you
are looking into realms into more advanced realms passphrase jamirs multi-sig and and that's
even after understanding bitcoin it's already pretty daunting and complex and then doing the
how part that's another realm another black hole of complexities and that's just where we help many
of our clients are boomers high net worth individuals and they just they just don't have
the the mental bandwidth the time the effort to um like many of of the bitcoiners like a maniac be
comparing articles and and and whatnot what is the best approach here and then try to poke holes
in companies and and because there's already so much out there in hardware tooling and software
tooling um in approaches how to secure it so that is the offering to make these complexities easier
that is the main uh question people worry about their bitcoin and at the end of the road it's
It's about peace of mind to hold your peace of freedom with peace of mind.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you're so right.
There is a lot of noise out there around the kind of different ways that you can do this.
And a lot of shaming, to be honest.
You know, you're not a Bitcoiner if you don't do X, Y, and Z.
And, you know, you're an idiot if you use this device.
and you're not private enough and you're not transacting properly.
And it's very overwhelming,
even for those that have been in the space for a long time,
you know, mixing it up with the guys on Twitter and whatever else.
And every now and then you see something that comes up
and you're like, oh, that just seems very difficult.
I mean, I remember when Seedsigner came onto the scene,
you know, like DIY signing devices.
And that just broke my mind.
I'm like, oh my God, what?
Like we should be doing that now?
Like this is wow.
Like, you know, and building and running your own node.
And here we are at time of recording.
We right in the middle of this op return debate Many Bitcoiners probably haven even heard heard about return and don realize that there was already a huge argument about this back in 2013 and 14
And here we are repeating the same stuff.
It's endless.
The rabbit holes are so deep and they're so convoluted.
And this does, to the detriment of some people, it turns them off.
And maybe they stop looking at Bitcoin and maybe they stop stacking.
and maybe they just want to leave it on the exchange
because that's easier and just watch the number go up
and then I'll sell it without going that next step.
Because the barrier to entry does seem a little bit too high,
a little bit too confusing, whereas it isn't.
And consulting services like yours, I think,
yeah, bring more on.
We need more of them.
I know there are others out there and we have BTC sessions.
There's great videos.
So people can go and watch that on YouTube.
But sometimes people just want someone at the end of the line.
So if I'm the guy, right, if I'm the guy that's been stacking
and I feel as though I've done all the right things,
I've bought my Bitcoin, I've dollar cost averaged,
it's got to a point every six months or so where it gets too much on the exchange.
I pull it off onto my hardware wallet.
The one I think was the best decision that I made at the time,
regardless of what's come afterwards.
but it's all on one key.
And I think multi-sig, what is that?
That just sounds so convoluted.
So I would get in touch with BitSaga.
So how would that look?
What would be the kind of the walkthrough
that you would help somebody with in that particular position?
Yeah, so the main thing here,
the main problem we're solving is worry.
People worry about their Bitcoin holdings and they want some more peace of mind and want some more confidence.
And I've talked to some OG Bitcoiners who have absurdly safe layers of encryption setups and they worry about their setup not being secure enough.
and some people have
eight digits on an exchange
and they do not worry
and then that's not our client
so that is the
main
starting point problem
people just
realize that a lot can go wrong
internal factors your own mistakes
and external factors
what not government
so that is
the driving force that people
reach out or that resonate
and then multistake is just
one of the solutions that
can apply to
a situation but
it's not
a hammer
for every nail or how
does the saying go
that it's dangerous to
go multistake too quickly
it is
a complex
thing sometimes
often it really also
depends on the client
sometimes it's
just setting up acquisition
be that DCA
or through OTC or private markets
and a harder wallet
most of the
time it is multi-sig
and then you
also get into
the question of okay
when at what amount
would you would you uh rob would you consider multisig and i think that's a very hard question
but overall because it has gotten so much easier and and we should definitely talk about that
half a bitcoin one which is a relatively low amount um i think it's it has become very viable
five years ago most definitely not that number would have been way higher because
of the obnoxiousness of how you would have done multi-sig, proper multi-sig back then.
So that being said, the process of how that usually goes,
and that's way more than 50% of clients,
is they either hold significant funds on an exchange or on a ledger,
specifically a ledger.
um yeah that and and you can also you can already derive that um bitcoiners as we as you and i know
them right are not the most common client of bits i do get them um but it's more the high net worth
individual boomer so when these people have or enter bitcoin and they have a significant stack
and they want to upgrade their security, they worry about it.
They got a stack on a ledger and they are just aware of,
yeah, this is not how it's supposed to be,
just not comfortable anymore.
They're not aware of all the issues with ledger.
When you list them up, people do tend to take,
okay, yeah, I didn't know that.
But the process, the approach of BitSaga really is,
there is no one size fits all solution.
It's all custom.
It's all tailor fit.
Your situation is different than the next client.
You're going to have different holdings.
You're going to have your family situation is going to be different.
Your frequency of buying, selling,
your behavior is just going to be different.
Your background, your technicality.
And that's a beautiful,
that's the beauty of having so many hardware and software solutions out there that the approach
really is okay what is your situation what are your worries what are the holes in your current
setup that you might not be aware of and then let's let's fix that what is your main plan are
you on mobile or are you on desktop often tablet whatever um can you have co-signers is it family
related is it just one person other's familia so how is the situation look and then we're going to
look at the right tooling and the right apps um recovery backup everything but it's always
a tailor-fit solution often multi-stick often coming from pretty horrible situations
exchanges the worst right and then ledger is very very common
so for those people you might have piqued their interest now if they're like
yeah i'm the guy with the ledger and i'm the guy that's now kind of worried about what you said
and i'm the guy that has half to a bitcoin and i'm the guy that's not really particularly
sleeping that well at night uh what what was the what would be the first thing you'd say about
like that particular device and why they should probably think about at least first step changing
that yeah let's talk about ledger indeed because i mean i've had a ledger all of us probably have
had a ledger at some point um let's just list them up first of all and the main huge red flag
is that it's closed source a lot of most of the important parts and that is that is the big one
open source being a code uh not just verifiable but that it's viewable by everyone that no fishy
things are happening and that everyone can verify that's your assets um that they're not extracting
them in some weird way or whatever, that there is no trust involved.
Closed source being you would have to require the company involved.
So that is really so fundamental.
It's not just the principles of Bitcoin.
It is a principle of security.
Many security tools have to be open source.
Your password manager, your VPN, that is a fundamental part of security.
So that, secondly, their recovery service, that they have a cloud backup solution they offer, that is so inherently broken.
The whole approach of safe self-custody is keeping it offline.
writing 12 words on a piece of paper is self-custody so um the recovery of servers
their cloud service when they launched it they received a significant shitstorm for it
and rightfully so and then also the reactions of management c-levels who in interviews went
if they get
certain questions
by certain organizations
and or governments
that they would and have to
and shall maybe have
comply with those
secondly
thirdly while back
people entering
the space will probably never
might never hear
about it but the data
leak that they had
where they leaked all their purchase orders,
private information of people who have ordered a ledger,
their hardware wallet on their website,
alongside the private addresses of these people.
And this is to this day, in my opinion,
one of the worst things that has ever happened in the space
because that's not just about, which is horrible,
life savings and funds but about personal security that's about people showing up on your doorstep
um and then there's a fourth thing yeah so that's third fourth the devices are just not
janky in my opinion absolutely when you have felt let me start off with when you buy a ledger
the newer devices, you're satisfied.
You're good.
You're happy that you have taken that step
that you have delayed for so long
and that you're going to store your crypto,
probably if you're buying a ledger
or your Bitcoin offline, save, good.
You tell yourself, I did good.
You have this confirmation bias.
But for me now,
having the luxury of comparing these devices
to many of the other alternatives
that are out there, they're just not great devices.
They are very low build quality.
They are not nice to work with.
Protocol multi support fingerprinting technical details they not following the rules of the game always which makes them hard to work with other keys in multisig
If Ledger is one key and you have other devices,
they sometimes not work well together because they're not following the rules.
So that's actually the fifth reason.
So there's quite a lot of reasons to avoid Ledger.
especially also because there are so many great alternatives out there,
open source ones, DIY buildable ones who don't have companies behind them saying,
yeah, we'll just comply with government orders or have had data leaks
or do actually have great build quality.
So, yeah, avoid ledger at all costs if you are considering these things
and there's so many great alternatives.
You've just dropped this on somebody on their first call
and they're sitting there with a ledger
or maybe two or maybe three
and they're ready to sign up.
Is that now, what would you say?
Like go and replace these keys
and do you need three and would you mix those up
or would you go, what's the advice?
So here's the thing,
and especially among Bitcoiners,
Shitting on Ledger is very popular and easy.
But I have to throw in here that you cannot say that these devices are not secure.
And that's what this is about.
You want to secure your funds full stop.
You want it to be easy and not too difficult.
There is no, not a single publicly documented case where funds, user funds have been stolen, where the security of a ledger device had been compromised was the cause of users losing funds.
So we can't say, I can't say that these devices are insecure.
an open source device with a different approach company
and all the way through supply chain and whatnot
is going to be more secure.
But you can't say, so that's a little side note
on the other end of the spectrum
because I love to shit on ledger,
but you also have to be aware of,
you don't have to panic now
because of all the reasons listed
that you now have to go and grab a new one
and then which one.
so that being said yes it is a good reflex if you have a ledger currently to switch it out
for one of the better objectively better alternatives out there absolutely be that
multiple devices, multi-sig,
that depends on your stack.
And as I said,
BitSire doesn't really have a fixed approach there
in determining whether multi-sig is the right fit.
Often it is.
Often it is, of course, strongly related
to how much funds are protected.
But also what happens very often
is that I have no idea how many funds are being protected.
It can be even with in-person onboardings, which is the most common onboarding, which is the signature service.
I prefer to, and it often happens, that I don't know how much funds are involved.
Oftentimes, you have reached a certain threshold and Multisig does apply.
and approaching it with a multi-vendor, multi-sig approach
where you have multiple different devices does make a lot of sense
to spread your risk.
Again, single point of fail, if anything were to happen
with one of these devices companies, that's the principle there
to consider different devices for your different keys
if you're considering multi-sig.
but I've set up
three passports for the same client
who just liked the device
don't have it laying around with me
it is such a
premium high build quality
device and you like it so much
coming from especially if you have a ledger
you have your passport and you're like
yeah I just like this one you have these
I'll just take
two more of these
so it really does depend
but that's the passport by
foundation yeah that you're talking about foundation passport core they've just rebranded it to core
the prime device uh with touchscreen is coming out real soon but uh huge fan of indeed the the
foundation passport core more premium device 250 euros but the usability the build quality
the software um the mobile app it's all there it's great it's top notch all the way through
okay excellent all right and so yeah and you were saying you you you want to write or you're going
to get around to writing uh an article uh going through all of the different uh hardware and
software options out there oh devices indeed hardware the the hardware wallets you want to
go through the devices and the hardware wallets the devices indeed so the list is currently 15
also includes a laptop,
an air-gapped laptop,
which is the OG hardware wallet,
actually,
has to be included.
And then every device that's currently out there,
Bitcoin-focused.
So Ledger's not going to be in there
for the reasons I mentioned.
Let's see how many I can get.
So you've got Bitbox, obviously,
supported the show for a long time.
Big fans, love what they do.
swiss based uh very focused on uh that they're very proud of being open source and they're very
proud of the you know they don't have any clunky buttons everything's kind of um touch and it's
very sleek it's beautiful i love it then you have you've got uh jade uh block streams um
hardware wallet uh you have um which is which is two now oh they've got two
Yeah.
The old Jade, the very cheap one.
Yeah.
And then the Jade Plus, the new Jade Plus.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
Which is a significant step up.
So that would be now we're up to three devices, right?
Correct.
Okay.
Then you have the offerings from CoinKite.
I almost said CoinCorner, they're the exchange.
CoinKite, the cold card.
How many?
That's what you're holding up right there.
Is that the, which one's that?
This is the queue.
you also have the the mark four okay those are the two there's are those are there too yeah
uh trezor obviously one of the uh the og companies and they have their there you go you've got the
bitcoin only one is that does that have canute sign on the back uh is that a no i don't think so
um it's just a very shiny nice finished uh the the newer bitcoin only trezor indeed this one
Yeah, a nice key design being Bitcoin only.
So you mentioned the laptop, just having the laptop.
My goodness, who am I missing?
You already mentioned, well, harder wallets, signing devices,
the seed signer.
The seed signer, of course.
Also has to be in there.
The DIY option, yes.
crux also falls in the diy option which are you can buy small computer screens i can actually i
have that one let me grab that real quick yeah sure oh it's my here
i will also forget i will also forget this one uh this is a crux it is not a device that you
You buy a device on AliExpress somewhere, China, cheap,
and you load the Crocs firmware onto it.
These are IoT devices.
There's a small camera in here, and it has a touchscreen.
This is just...
How do you spell that?
Crocs, K-R-U-X.
It's just a firmware.
It's not a device.
These are IoT devices used for some IoT tooling, whatever people use them for.
They have a list of devices that you can use to load the Crux firmware on.
And it works very similar to a SeedSigner.
SeedSigner, you have to build yourself from off-the-shelf components like a small Raspberry Pi Zero.
And this is just an off-the-shelf component that you can buy like this.
and then you put the crux firmware on it and it's an air gap also qr signing uh device and there's
a couple devices that can work with crux um very similar to the seat signer approach sorry diy
and are we missing any um like standalone uh companies that that we've just gone through
that list who else are we missing yeah who else are we missing um so we had jbitbox
keystone ah right okay yes um some don't think they are um there's some very nice things about
this um they are a shitcoin company but they have bitcoin only firmware and this is a device
um it's rather cheap it's touchscreen it's one of the only touch screen so the usability of this
is through the roof.
Second to none.
There is, in my opinion,
not a device that is
in its basic functions,
just sending and receiving Bitcoin.
That's easier than this keystone.
But it's got an internal battery,
camera,
great device,
but more in the mediocre range
in build quality.
It's a budget $140, $150 price range.
And they also have some issues in multi-sick compatibility.
They also have some issues with their support.
So I used to like them a lot.
And I've had some lesser, not so smooth experiences with them.
We also didn't get sorted out all that smoothly.
So yeah, they dropped in ranking in BitSaga's regard.
But if you want something that's very easy,
very budget Keystone is a fair device.
I love that they have this Bitcoin-only firmware.
So else up on the list, I'm thinking very new player in the game,
the Cardware.
Cardware.
Cardware, yeah.
this is a very interesting super i love this thing um 74 bucks so jade watch out because jade as the as the budget option in my opinion has been dethroned there is no reason to look at the base jade model anymore it is such a janky device i
do not like it i i stopped selling them um and these devices as a budget option
it's really great. There's no internal
battery. AirGap device
got these buttons
works really
simple. They've got
some kinks to iron out still
but as the budget
option in Bitcoin hardware wallets
love it. They've got some
unique things going on. Cardware
if you're on a
very tight budget, if you're a student
you're saving your first
couple hundred, couple thousand in Bitcoin
cardware, that's going to be your tool.
above the jade and what's the one uh like jack dorsey was part of like bit key bit key that's
right kind of a hexagonal looking kind of yeah yeah yeah i should still actually i guess add that
to the lineup to compare um but as far as i know it's also closed source um and and
there's a spending limit in your transactions really good depending on your on your setup
as i've understood yes um it's also blind signing transactions it is a two of two multi-sig under
the hood they're not um so clear about that um haven't looked might be i might be saying some
things that aren't completely correct here
but would like to
have a deeper look at that device
because it is
they profile themselves
as a very easy to use
a very end user
hardware wallet
but yeah
there's some things
to frown about
yeah I've
not played around with one
I've had a lot of people tell me that
meh um which is unfortunate but uh okay and then i just found another one here i just went through
a quick list uh keep key i again i've not played around with one of those i don't think i've ever
seen one keep key i think it's also going to be um multi-coin shitcoin support um i do have
i'm gonna grab it the one key the one key pro then the more high end it's also a shitcoin
hardware wallet, they don't have Bitcoin
only firmware, but the Sparrow
desktop wallet, which is a very popular
desktop software wallet
has support for the OneKey
now, and so that made
me, okay, I'll throw that in
as
a real shitcoin wallet, just to compare
them, and it's a pretty high end device, it's
touchscreen, it's very
nice, aluminum
body even, so
and that's the angle
that BitSaga is
overall taking a bit more premium high-end where the usability is also very important not just i'm
on a very tight budget i think 100 bucks is too much for a harder wallet um so the keep key is
not going to be in there one key yes they have a more budget device i'll only be including the the
one key pro um this one i still have one lying around you're not gonna guess this one is also a
touchscreen it's also diy 3d printed case um very unique feature here is that you can have smart
cards like seat keeper and insert it into its butt and so that you have an interchangeable
secure element actually um spectre diy this is spectre diy right okay spectre yeah i was thinking
about making also like the seed signer cnc aluminum case for this one um but i like the
seed signer so much it it you are the software it's just yeah that's the route i'm usually taking
how how do you address people i i know everybody's completely different even the people that are down
the rabbit hole on this stuff air gapped versus non-air gapped because you've got so this this
part of the argument this is where the shaming and the point of thinking point of finger uh
finger pointing comes in and um you know you got very strong advocates of uh partially signed
bitcoin transactions and air gapping and this that and the other thing and you've got other guys that
are like yeah no that doesn't actually make a difference and bitbox themselves have written a
blog about how air gapping is um kind of overhyped uh maybe i mean what for for a general user it is
another layer of friction i'll just say that uh what what are your takes um i'm going to
agree with the large part and disagree with
one part.
I'm going to agree with
the
Bitbox statement
going
this is not what Bitbox is saying, but this is what I'm saying
is that
I see this a lot
and it's called security theater.
It is massive
sometimes obnoxious.
I've seen crazy encrypted
setups security theater all the way through and it's becoming dangerous even more for loss not for
external things so air gapping as a security measure it is not necessary again just like with
the ledger there are no devices being hacked because they are being plugged in over usb it
could it doesn't there are no public accounts available of usb harder wallets being hacked
where user funds were user funds were stolen where the fact that they were over usb or something about
their software just like with ledger you can't say so in that sense it is security theater and
it is not um necessary to do at all you can keep your funds you can keep a lot of funds secure
on usb based be that multiple hardware wallets absolutely but what i and that's where i'm going
to disagree uh with with you i think daniel is i like the air gapping because it is so much
easier to use. I am a huge proponent of QR-ing the QR codes. Everyone knows QR codes. Every
normie knows QR codes. You can now QR code everything, not just your transactions, your
PSPT, but also your private key, your multisigna script. Everything can be a QR code. Just turn on
your device, point it to your QR code, press confirm, and it's another QR code that you just
have to scan boom done that's the workflow of the foundation passport whereas let's compare that to
bitbox and trezor all the usb based devices nothing wrong with these devices but i personally
less like them because you can't just power them on you have to plug them in that's one
and then you have to enter also in bitbox i don't like it also on trezor you have to unlock the
devices are encrypted you have to unlock them some pin coins some some password um to to decrypt the
devices and it's a bit clunky especially in my opinion um on bitbox buttons they take some getting
used to they work okay but if you've got a long word it takes some time and compared to you take
your foundation passport you there's a battery there it's replaceable you put it on turn it on
there's six six digits pin code just like a nokia device and you're in and if you compare that to
many of the usb based devices also cold card mark 4 can work usb based um there it's actually okay
it's also just a pin code but the buttons are clunky
so that is my main reason why I'm such a big proponent
of air gapping the devices
because they can work so much easier
especially in the context of multisig
where you have to sign a transaction with multiple devices
and you can just do it by scanning QR codes
it's lovely
it clicks so much faster
than having to plug in devices.
So it works also easier with your mobile device.
Many people are mobile first now.
They don't have a laptop anymore.
And just showing who you are on your mobile
and signing with your hardware wallet.
So the usability is heavily underrated
of the air gapping, in my opinion.
Absolutely.
okay so that would limit the person then to a device that has a camera well
i don't want to say i i will refrain from from going this is what you should do i do have strong
preferences and i i i try to and again it depends on the person not be too vocal about these
but it's because it's like the question what's what's now what's now the best one rob and and
It's like asking what's the best car.
It really does depend.
But for every single one of my clients, it has to be easy.
It has to be easy, except for some obnoxious Bitcoin OGs.
Most of my clients, it has to be easy.
And usability is security.
It is the most underrated security feature.
because the devices do not get hacked.
Again, they don't.
They just don't.
Users get hacked all the time.
There's so many obnoxious amount of phishing emails going around.
Everyone gets them on a fucking daily basis.
I swear on this podcast.
Because they work.
People, last week or two weeks ago,
a senior individual 300 million in bitcoin stolen through an advanced phishing attack
they just work these attacks so the usability of a device is so much underweight you can have a
whole lot of security features and not be the most usable.
And that is so much so underrated where if a device guides a user to proper and often
happens but the overall usability of devices is um the main differentiator here um in in in my
approach at least they're all secure they can all sign secure bitcoin transactions um some have some
great features some are but the usability that is the the main decision maker um yeah that should be
taken into account way more than many of the security features i mean seed xoring i mean what
what kind of obnoxious alt is this seed xoring is that's that's that's a stupid security theater
feature absolutely hate it make it easy that's yeah the companies they have to do that way more
in my opinion.
Okay, so now somebody who's looking to set this up
has the devices on hand
so they'll order them, wait for them to be delivered,
set up the next call.
What's the next step that you would talk someone through?
Well, so usually let's get that clear
and to some, especially Bitcoin,
it's going to be maybe weird,
but most of the setups that BitSaga does are in person.
So I bring along a whole truckload of hardware wallets,
backups, recovery, toolings, even UB keys,
two-factor authentication keys.
We can talk about those.
Temp Revenant bags, anything that we could ever need,
even Start9 nodes.
And then we do the full setup, full day.
That's it.
So that's what most of the time happens.
And then we do the full setup, full day often.
I didn't realize that.
So you'd get on a plane and fly over.
Is it just you or is it a couple of you?
Exactly.
It's mostly me.
Indeed, a lot of clients are Benelux.
But indeed, that is the approach.
Of course, American, Dubai, Hong Kong, I mean, clients all over the world.
but it's the digital approaches in meeting,
in just you and I talking to each other,
they are very much possible and they can be anonymous.
But they are so much less.
There's a lot more friction there.
Users having to say what's on their screen.
Oftentimes something goes wrong or something is unexpected.
Something goes.
Some of these flows I can do blind now.
I know exactly the UI of the foundation passport by head, but that's a way more preferred approach.
And that has grown to be from clients' demand, not because I was pushing, invite me into your house and then I'll explain everything to you.
It's not a very Bitcoin privacy approach that just grow naturally by demand.
These people, they want that in-person concierge service oftentimes.
The digital guidances are, of course, possible and happen.
And then, to that being said, order a device, let's say foundation passport or even just the card where it's going to be a budget device.
there's always a lot of questions even before starting and then getting to know the device
setting it up sometimes that's very smooth sometimes some things get wrong you really
noticed that these are not
iPhones. iPhones are
multi-generational
polished products
and
I don't think I can say that
any of these devices
are
issue free. All have
at least some major
issue going on
in my opinion. So
that's what happens. People order
guide
guidance happens over
call sometimes but mostly
in person
yeah and again there's no
fixed approach
there sometimes
it's a call and a family
member in another country
has by that time already received
their harder wallet and
we do a distributed multi-seek
setup with people in
different countries as
family members or it's just to call a harder wallet to replace a ledger um and then it's just
setting creating a new setting up a new harder wallet and and moving over to doing the test
transaction right first the small one getting the cold stored so you don't have to get the cold
sweats um and then the and then the big one um it takes so many different shapes and sizes i love
that that's just my approach here i love that there's no one size fits all fixed protocol here
um some companies do and i mean that that that can work really great because these
many of the principles do come back um yeah but it it's it's always different it's always
it's different challenges different requirements different solutions yeah so you mentioned start
nine so you'd even be able to turn up and set somebody up to run their own node first and then
show them how to probably uh interact with the wallets with that node to get everything set up
and then obviously the different list of words teach them how to get that all completely uh well
how do you advise them to split it up?
Like the three or the five, whatever they're using.
Yeah, this is a very hard part.
Let's say a client has some funds and we set up new devices,
let's say three passwords just for argument's sake.
and this is always a very difficult question
that people ask me.
Now, where do you keep it?
You have to return to the principles here.
You want to avoid a single point of failure.
People are coming from an exchange
which is a huge point of failure of one ledger
which is a single, still a single point of failure.
Every backup is one.
So you ideally, it's not always the case,
We can talk about a hybrid multi-seq setup.
Ideally, you want to keep your three keys in three different locations.
It doesn't have to be, but that is the main one and three cold keys.
So banks, notaries, family members, other private locations, private vaults,
other private apartments, houses that you might have,
some separate location that you don't have direct access to family members tend to be
rather popular in multi-setups because if one member has significant funds in bitcoin
he very often has embarked upon the journey of orange billing at least some of his family members
and has succeeded in some sense or and he shares some stack or he has shared some so
yeah that's
a very popular approach
sometimes that is not possible and
one person has to
manage the full
multi-sig wallet if there's very
young kids involved and you want to
be aware of inheritance also
always very important
question that comes up a lot
it's very
difficult but
bank vaults
Bitcoiners are
going to be very don't keep your keys at a bank i mean even custody don't i mean but the beautiful
thing about that is you have the natural inheritance off-chain inheritance on-chain
inheritance is now also becoming more popular with things like that as far um notaries and
have it written in a will uh have it documented these things they automatically inherit down to
your next generations um and and these are very strong um they give people comfort
these approaches private faults some people especially who do already have private faults
um for gold there's a huge overlap with the gold bug community and then those who are
who have clicked with bitcoin right um there is no again there is no fixed answer here but don't
keep it in one location
and keeping it in a
different location but
it's okay
to enter multi-sig
if you just want to
explore it and not
force yourself into different locations
depending on the situation, depending
on the stack, right? You can keep one key on your
phone, a hot key
and one harder wallet
laying around and then
one backup key somewhere else
so you still in some sense have a
single point of failure because someone might enter your house and you can um move all your
funds then you have decoy wallets um so you don't have to take that approach there's many different
configurations here possible right especially with multiple keys um banks notaries private
faults other locations those are the locations that are um most common right good excellent
and then somebody's set up and they're good to go so i think i think we've gone through the
well what's the if anybody's interested they should just go to the website but uh you know
do you have a price structure that you want to tell people about uh i know there's a like a free
30 minute consultation call and that's directly with you uh and um yeah how do you intend to to
build out this service because or do you do do you hope just to keep it just you what what's your
what's your plan so to answer the first part the pricing um the most common approach is the
signature service which is 1250 for a full day because these setups tend to take a full day
um setting up the full wallets uh also recovery backup scenarios lots of questions
very important force and stress scenarios and travel expenses would be covered on top of that
that would be separate yeah hardware and travel expenses on top of that indeed that's the that's
the service in and of itself and that's most common um first 30 minute calls always free
explore get to know each other what's your situation um there's also an hourly but the
signature service that most popular because it just seems to resonate with people that to have a tailor fit solution for them the right hardware devices for them the right tooling app
desktop software wallets for them.
So that is the most common popular formula.
That is always me.
the approach there
I do work with a couple
of other guys but it is
mostly a
one man army
I do have
from
my
previous existing startup
there's this movement
within X now it's called solopreneurs
where you go solo
and you build an entire company with AI tooling in different aspects.
The ambition is great, though, to be a reference name in Europe.
You want premium Bitcoin security?
Yeah, that's where you got to go.
So I'm not sure if I will be able to pull it off by myself all the way through.
but for now that is that is the approach yeah that is the current pricing structure that's
um is also not going to stay that's probably going to um go up soon um but yeah this is
inter-service the custom fit that's uh that's the approach all right so i guess we should figure out
then you know a little bit more about you uh what what was your past fiat career uh what's brought
you hear and there's there's always an origin story for you know the bitcoiners out there to
to kind of um feel some kind of connection with your rabbit hole journey yeah it's been it's been
quite a journey absolutely um i'm a software engineer by trade i got into this relatively
early on but of course as many of us got distracted with um many altcoins and i went deep
i went into the trenches as they say um aggregated leveraged yield farms on avalanche
i wrote smart contracts on ethereum minted my own nfts um i went all the way yeah
five digit percentage yields um pump and illegal pump and dump schemes
i've joined i'm allowed to say that um yeah and you you keep digging right you get distracted by
the icos in the 17 cycle um but having the technical background i i was always very intrigued
by how these things work under the hood.
And the white papers,
not understanding over 30% often
of these highly technical, mathematical,
academical readings,
but that has led me on the journey
and the main pivotal point for me
was the Lightning Network white paper.
And then also seeing and feeling the implementation of being able to pay someone by QR code and it working on your phone, you can see.
And that's like a huge, has been a huge light bulb moment for me.
And then you learn that many of these, the main thing that many of these shit coins say is how fast they are.
transactions per second the tps metric gets thrown to your face nowadays a little less so
and then you learn okay light indicator of bitcoin okay and you you see the bright orange light um
take some time took a long time but that is a bit um how i got into it um always been relatively
technical at some point bit saga was actually a payment gateway provider for merchants they want
to accept bitcoin and then i would have the the cloud infrastructure btc pay server
um for merchants to accept bitcoin transactions in their web shop
but from my experience there isn't wasn't a whole lot of demand for that
where there is was a lot of demand for is the harder wallets everyone wants a harder wall everyone
wants a ledger everyone's harder wall and then the consultancy side is now actually has now
actually become the core of the business.
So that's been, I guess, a little bit of the origin story.
And in the meantime, at the start of last year,
when BitSaga was taking off,
Stripe, the payment gateway provider,
decided to de-platform us.
and no payments were possible anymore.
Bitcoin, of course, that always works,
but over 50% is going to be fiat payments.
And their chat message to me on X was,
I guess it was some intern.
It was very unluckily worded
where you have to remove the miners from your website.
Would you be willing to do that
in order for us to restore the service or something like that.
And I was like, wait, are you kidding me?
That's not how this works.
I mean, this is the revolution.
I was freaking furious about that.
And I threw out some big words and that took off.
A lot of people saw that,
where this BitSaga small merchant was being blackmailed by Stripe,
this payment giant into not providing his Bitcoin miners anymore.
And that was a wild thing to see.
That absolutely exploded.
But that's where I'm at right now.
They do not provide service.
They de-banked you?
They de-platformed me.
And then a while back, that was absolutely crazy.
Without warning, without message, my private, I had two banks at the time,
my private account, my business account, my checkings account,
my savings account, all of it got blocked.
No cards were working, no nothing.
couldn't log in, no nothing.
And nobody at any bank could tell me
what was going on,
why it was going on,
or any useful information
at all.
Some investigation
is ongoing.
And that was
absolutely wild.
This is just like your high street bank that you've used
for like, God knows how many years.
KBC and Belfius,
two main banks in Belgium.
what yeah i've been there for my entire life my family has been there for their entire life and
they um called angrily and some investigation is ongoing kbc unbanked me for four months
without message without warning never in the whole time up until this day they never none of the banks
gave me a reason why they did what they did to block me entirely.
And that was infuriating.
My wife was 36 weeks pregnant.
I couldn't pay invoices.
When I went to the grocery store,
I forgot my cars and I had to go back home to get cash and pay for it.
On my way to Bitcoin Amsterdam,
saying I couldn't stop by the side of the road.
I was going to sell some Bitcoin for cash there.
You can't stop to buy drinks, food,
because your cards aren't working.
It is so pervasive,
so the power that they have over you,
me as a Bitcoiner.
And you can pay everyone with Bitcoin
and clients can always pay with Bitcoin on the website.
it is so abstract
when you read about it but when you experience
it to get ejected from the system
you feel the power
that they have over you
it is scary
and they just
can and will
and not just Russian
or Chinese dissidents
this is
just a guy
building a fair
transaction history of everything
People can order anonymously on the website.
But that was absolutely crazy to experience that.
And by now I have my accounts back and I will never know why.
I have some assumption, of course.
Peer-to-peer transactions were made.
Not very big ones.
That's going to be, that was the trigger most likely.
um but wow yeah just eject you from the system like you say until you've experienced it you you
can't you read about it or you hear other people's stories uh well i know peter peter mcormack was
debanked by i think it was lloyd's uh like that the high street bank he'd used since he was like
13 or something yep no no more what and then you can't get your money and i've had a few other
people on here barclays bank debanked people here in the uk uh i know yeah
only keep as much fear as you're willing to lose right like that's that is the
you want some backup cash somewhere, I suppose,
and just move it all into Bitcoin slowly but surely
over the next year or two,
because it's only going to get worse.
There's reports out of Spain now that if you try
and take more than 3,000 euros,
they're going to fine you 150,000 or something.
It's like, what?
This is nonsense.
It's almost unbelievable.
And that's probably part of the trick.
absolutely and it's that's why we do what we do right but in the EU it's not the banks really it's not
it the banks who are afraid of the regulator the laws because they just get fined obnoxious amounts if they can show where that euro is coming from
The banks, this is something I've learned, the banks do not want your money.
They don't, unless they know where it's coming from.
That's the thing that you now see consistently in the EU.
and that's being becoming more pervasive with the eu travel rule not just mica they they want to know
every single euro where it's where it's coming from with private details and in in in crypto
more so than in fiat but in fiat also so that is the source it's not the banks it's it's the
obnoxious regulations that the EU is imposing on itself that is that is the
source here and and that is I'm afraid and it's so boring the conversation that
we gotta have you have to talk with these people who are so out of touch
with what we are what we believe to be true right and and we can do this bottom
up grassroots and that's how this is happening but but that is part of the conversation ludmila
koslovska is is doing great work uh on that front in the eu shout out um to also approach to also
fight this this war we're fighting right um on the top level um yeah it's the regulations
and it's only going to get worse and you can't help but wonder whether it's being done purposefully
to to push through the the ultimate goal of the cbdc which uh the the euro the digital euro
apparently is going to be coming out in october i mean we'll wait and see uh but
like yeah that sends shivers
that's sending shares especially because
gotta watch out how how how you say it because these are these are black holes right and you get
into um conspiracy thingies rather quickly but
manufactured consent narrative building
these are open tactics that they have learned to do um declassified false flag operations
are a real thing these are not conspiracy theories these are some of these things are
objectively true and those are the ones i'm referring to i always refer to the the gulf
of tonkin incident which which started the vietnam war um oh yes let's talk about that
Because a lot of people might not know that.
Yeah, so that's just the exemplary, because it is verifiable truth.
Let's not talk about 9-11, right?
Let's talk about the thing that we can verify.
Don't just verify, right?
You can just Wikipedia right now.
The Gulf of Tonkin incident.
It is bonkers.
This started the Vietnam War.
Viet Cong ship torpedoed an American ship.
Hey, Viet Cong, don't do that.
We're now going to shoot you.
War.
And that's the war declaration.
Turns out, decades later, Viet Cong didn't shoot that American ship.
We did.
The Americans did.
And that is such a crazy thing to be true.
These are declassified documents.
And that just makes you think, right?
As a Bitcoiner, you think the fiat system, it's so broken.
what else is broken what else is fake and you start to have a very critical worldview right
and then you learn things like this and if they and there's that's just one example there's
many declassified false flag operations hotel bombings jesus christ many people dying
so then you
you have to force yourself into thinking
what else are they prepared to do
if they do this then
what else and that's just such a scary and
dangerous thought to be so distrustful of
yeah your government
or powerful people, organizations.
And so rotating back to CBDC regulations,
I am afraid that there at this moment
is not enough support for such a thing.
And then maybe something happens
and then there is.
It's crazy.
That's why they do these things.
There is not enough popular support
for a war in Vietnam.
Something happens
and then there is.
So I'm not saying it will
but these things have happened in the past.
I'm not saying between now and October
there's going to be a cyber attack
and everyone's going to welcome in the CBDC
because that's how we can avoid the terrorists
from doing something again.
But, I mean, these things happen
and you have to have a critical worldview
and it's scary, honestly.
So, more weirdness about that day.
More weirdness about the Gulf of Tonkin.
One of the...
Hang on a second.
Let me try and get this right.
one of the guys
high up
in the United States Navy
during that time
and held
high ranks
during the Vietnam War was a guy
called George Stephen Morrison
also father by the way of Jim
Morrison who was the lead singer of the Doors
and I think he was
even there during
like that Gulf of Tonkin incident,
you're like, huh?
Can this all honestly be connected?
But the false flag events,
the Lusitania, the sinking of the Lusitania
during World War I,
that was perpetrated
to bring public opinion in the US on side
to bring the US into the First World War
because it was packed with US citizens.
And you learn about that and Churchill's involvement
in that plot.
And yeah, this is what they do.
It's wild.
It is wild.
And 9-11 is another one.
As you say, you want to stick to the verifiable ones,
but I think we're all probably on the same page.
Most people listen to this.
The monster from Jekyll Island, the Fed,
the origin story of America's Central Bank.
Well, that was the third attempt at Central Bank.
There'd already been two other attempts,
and one of them led by Alexander Hamilton,
who was a Rothschild agent.
And it's like, oh, no, no, he wasn't.
I've seen the Broadway play.
He was a great dude.
Died in a duel, don't you know?
Like, you know, yeah, righto.
It's all of these false flags are all around us.
And yes, like you, I keep a very open eye now
on what they're going to do.
How are they going to bring this in?
What catastrophe are they going to land on us that is going to absolutely, and what's kind of antithetical is like, if they lead with a cyber attack, how do they then bring in a CBDC digital currency?
Like if all of a sudden our infrastructure is questionable, or is the cyber attack that I believe will lead to digital internet ID passports?
You know, you and I can't log on to a Zoom call unless we've got some kind of digital ID to allow us into this realm of cyberspace, which we can now at the moment, you know, enter without a digital passport.
That's definitely on their agenda.
Digital ID is the ultimate wet dream for these people, you know.
Digital ID and digital money.
That's amazing.
That's everything.
so yeah be wary people when you see these headlines i mean what what happened recently
in portugal and spain and france where there's just complete blackout uh you know there's many
theories about what happened there uh one being a solar flare because the uh the earth's magnetic
field is failing and like fuck me that's a different story jesus christ yeah let's not
worry about anything else then like that but um others being yeah well it's just uh direct energy
weapons being used to create fear and you're like okay the truth is we'll never know the truth and
we'll only ever be told a half truth because the half truth is far more dangerous than the outright
lie but we're being led to believe something or the masses are and wherever that mass kind of
consensus reaches that's what they'll keep doubling down on where is the fear manifesting and where is
the fear doubling tripling quadrupling because that's what they want they want the fear because
then people will bend the knee and then all of a sudden you got people locked in their homes
walking around with masks on their head and taking you know uh rushed through medical
liquids straight into their bloodstreams that this is social engineering on crack
and this is what they can do when they can control you by cutting you off of the banking system
and whoever else they want to that's pure fear and indeed triggering that primordial
part of the brain is your greatest driver into change if he wants to see change in a certain
direction and then narratives are easily constructed media yeah these are very there's
there's a lot to um explore there and and unravel the self-sovereignty is such an
well i not gonna say it underrated but we are dependent on systems We are standing on the shoulders of giants and have comforts and luxuries in our lives that good times have made us
and
probably
we're rotating
into
where a lot of these things
have similar or common
cause
perhaps a certain
common toxicity within
the current system that's not just
financial
and
the bad times let's hope that not too many people are going to die because i do think i'm afraid that
it could get really ugly we we see that just recently when you're being cut off from electricity
and or money i mean 2008 that was nothing but you get occupy wall street like that and that's
nothing it's not even capital controls so these these structures that we have in place
are
we are not ready
we are not
a lot of people are not
ready for
fundamental shifts
we have had
this period of peace
and so preparing self
sovereignty
off grid
internet dependence
I mean Starlink doesn't really
do the trick
does it? Ham Radio
it's where you want to be
and this just
and these are things that are even
also discussed with clients
some people go
extremely far
in this it tends to be a
common thing actually even with
it's our
clients even if they're not
Bitcoiners
they
always are critical thinkers
and people who
already going more towards living off the land, self-sovereignty, energy,
being able to provide for your family, yourself, is a beautiful thing.
Not just in that regard, but also in back to basics and simplicity and beauty
and a little bit of exiting the rat race.
so there's many reasons
that the spirit of Bitcoin
right, the self-sovereignty
taking it back to the individual
that power, that it's
such a
philosophical movement
becoming
to be, right
you can see people like Nutz Van Holm
or Breedlove
there are
lots of
even Amus
there's lots of
approaches now that
it's not about money
Bitcoin for me
it's about freedom but it touches
upon so many aspects of
our society and
fix the money, fix the world
many of these memes are
so anchored in truth
yeah, self-sovereignty, freedom
we really have to
put pressure
revaluing these things.
We do.
And I urge anybody listening to go back
and listen to my podcast episode with Sovereign Pete.
And if you've not listened to it yet, Rob,
you should do, you'd love it.
Because you're right.
It's not just the money.
You have self-sovereign money,
but do you have self-sovereign mindset?
And yeah, of course, I know everybody can't go out and, you know, I'm not in a position to yet. I would love to have my own citadel and my cow roaming around on my estate, you know, and running water coming through it and be completely energy independent. That's what I want to get to. You can't click your fingers and do that overnight. But still, if you're even buying that land and then registering that land, you don't own it. You've just given the ownership over to the people you've registered it with. You're now just the keeper of it.
and um he goes through all of this uh like your car you don't own your car even if you bought your
car with cash from a dealer peer-to-peer you still then register it with the dvla here in the uk or
um ants in france or whatever it is in belgium or wherever you are in the in the uk in the in the
world excuse me it's then you've registered that ownership of that car that you just bought
to them and you are just the keeper of it and you have the privilege of using it and you're like
what you're like yeah this is the system right this is the the legal system in in air quotes
not the lawful system but we don't know about that as bitcoiners sure we've got the money part
sorted out and that's huge but now we've got to take complete so this is the you know the uh
A Lloydal title, A-L-L-O-I-D-A-L, for anybody listening that wants the spelling of that word,
go and look it up, but look up the meaning of it and the definition of it.
And look in a Black's Law Dictionary.
Don't just look in Wokipedia for like, what does a Lloydal title mean?
Because it would have been probably fudged a little bit.
But if you take self-custody of your Bitcoin, you own the Bitcoin.
It is yours.
It's not on the exchange anymore because when it's on the exchange,
it's the exchanges. It's now yours. You know, it's like,
the only thing I think we can truly own, to be honest,
when you look at everything else, maybe a bar of gold, obviously,
or a bar of silver, if you've got that, actually got it.
But otherwise your house, your possessions, you know,
everything else is you know registered to somebody else with a policy number um with you know or um
yeah it's and it's crazy to me that here we are discussing this at the moment everybody's
screaming at each other about cat cat jpegs on the freaking blockchain which is complete insanity
to me uh and uh yeah and all of all of a sudden as well you feel this shift
everybody's launching a loan product like that's the next big thing and you're like
wait a minute wait wait wait hang on we've been here we've done this before but yeah and and and
let's just let's just think through it it's like okay you want me you want to entice me with the
you know the the catchphrase of never sell your bitcoin or unleash the power of your bitcoin or
whatever else you you want me to give up a loyal title of something you want me to go and like
enter my multi-sig to sign a transaction to send now to somebody else's ownership i've given up a
loyal title of that completely so you can give me fiat currency which is a debt discharging
instrument which i'm going to have to pay you usury on to the tune of anywhere between eight
to twelve percent and give up a little like that doesn't seem like a great deal because
we know and over the like you know what's the term of that contract let's say it's a year well
we know how much Bitcoin can go up and down in a year.
And if it goes down a significant amount,
you've got to add more to it just to, you know,
keep the loan to value.
It's, this is a road to ruin.
And I really, you know, I'm throwing up the red flags
and it doesn't matter how influential the person is
that's trying to push this idea.
I'm sure it's coming from a good place, but be wary.
do not give up something that you have true ownership over absolutely the thing that i have
learned though is also alluded to in the beginning is not convincing people anymore of anything
because you don't know if it's going to take three minutes or three years i've got friends who
are still not in any real sense understanding the the first steps of bitcoin really i've utterly
failed with some people in orange filling them um but
these understandings
they do come
they do arrive
it's a self sovereignty
not keeping your keys on an exchange
but as a person
not even then
especially not as BitSaga
I mean some people
they want to keep
gold in an ETF
Bitcoin in an ETF
and then some Bitcoin
in self custody
you ask the question
I'll answer right
ledger why not ledger
answer the question
but convincing
is a very hard
thing to do
and
I hope that
I have to think of
the things that
change in our
minds and culture
without understanding the underlying dynamics.
I have to think of the internet.
Nobody understands how the internet works.
Who can explain DNS caching?
Yet every time you send some message over the internet,
that's exactly what you use, or TCP for that matter.
So I think and hope that that's what we should strive for.
is going to happen with Bitcoin,
not even UTXO, maybe not that part,
but a lot of the inner technical blockchain workings,
spending conditions, whatever,
they should not be necessary to understand,
to be able to have freedom, self-custody, self-sovereignty.
But the cultural shift, the low time preference,
especially that that is happening is is way more necessary i believe than many of the technical details that we opportun that we often
uh tend to focus on and and that's the thing i almost get most exciting about is yeah the cultural shift
more than how we do it.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, last question.
If you had one last orange pill
left to give to somebody,
who would you give it to and why?
The last orange pill.
Let's see.
My, yeah, my daughter.
She's now five months old.
This is actually one of the most important people in the world
that I still have to orange pill.
I think we are so focused on the external world
and you see these values coming back,
being revalued within the Bitcoin community, family,
and these things, if I within my family can have the self-sovereignty,
the freedom, the peace of mind of being free from bankers and politicians,
then that is sufficient for me.
Or that is not sufficient because, I mean, there's a fire.
I'm a warrior in that sense.
But that is the most important part for the loved ones in your life.
Yeah.
yeah i love it mate well done and congratulations to you and your wife and well it's nice to know
that there's another another little bitcoiner gonna grow up native to bitcoin uh you know
imagine her life in 15 years from now when she does fully understand it and wow the world will
be we both hope a a much better brighter happier more positive place because of you know the actions
that you're taking to help educate people
and fix the money and fix the world.
So thank you so much for coming on, mate.
It's been great to get to know you
and I look forward to, well, will we meet you?
Are you going to be at any of the conferences?
Where can people reach out if they want to learn more?
Of course, definitely Bitcoin Amsterdam,
probably Bitcoin Prague.
but
contact is
bitsaga.be
and of course also x
at bitsaga.rob
those are the main
bitcoin channels
excellent I'll put that in the show notes
and
nothing left we said mate
appreciate it yeah thanks for having me Daniel this was a great chat thanks thank you so much Well guys I hope you enjoyed that one And I hope you thinking deeper again about your setup
Those of you that need to think the hardest are those of you that do not have self-custody of your Bitcoin.
That's step number one.
All right.
Don't get too head up and run around with your head on fire.
Like, oh, my God, I've done it all wrong.
like everything is fine just please start making sure you take this more seriously
and get self-custody of your bitcoin and for those of you that are sitting around here thinking
holy fuck it's all on a ledger you've got some deep thoughts to honestly go through i would set
up that call with rob i mean it's a 30 minute free call why wouldn't you do that and uh and
And then for others that, you know, if you're losing any kind of sleep about your setup, just jump on the call.
Just have a chat.
You know, I'm not shilling here.
And it doesn't have to be with Rob.
It could be with a trusted other Bitcoiner that you've got to meet.
And if you haven't met any Bitcoiners, what are you doing?
Get to one of the conferences.
We've got BTC Prague coming up.
I am shilling now.
BTC Prague.
Use the code BITTON.
Get 10% off.
Pay with Bitcoin, get another 5% off.
It's coming up.
This is FOMO time now.
The conference starts in earnest on Thursday.
That's industry day.
But there's a full lineup of speakers and loads of other fun as well.
And it's the best time to be in the expo because you can walk around the expo,
get to know all of the different companies that are showing.
Like I said at the beginning, Bitbox are going to be there.
So if you want to start self-custodying your Bitcoin,
now's the time to get to a conference get to the booth go and have the full rundown by the people
generally douglas is there he's the ceo of the company you can't imagine imagine in fiat land
where you went to a trad fi fiat conference and you stood there and spoke to the ceo of
barclays bank where you hold your checking account but that shit doesn't happen in fiat land
It happens in Bitcoin land.
You just got to put yourself in those situations.
And if you're not, you're missing it.
Like the opportunity cost of not going
to these conferences is huge,
but please choose wisely.
Bitcoin only conferences, okay?
Disclaimer Bitcoin only conferences and BTC Prague is one of those If you go to one of the other conferences where they got shitcoiners roaming around the place singing their little siren song of you know invest in my
NFT or in my cat JPEG monkey fucking file bullshit you're gonna get confused. So it's got to be
Bitcoin only events and get to a Bitcoin only meetup. Find your local meetup. That's as simple
is downloading and paying for yes you have to pay for an orange pill app membership it's not free
because if it was free it'd be flooded full of the crypto bros they're gonna try and sell you
absolutely anything it's bitcoin only so orange pill app again the link is in the show notes you
download that app and you start connecting with bitcoiners around you you find out where your
local meetup is and if there isn't one start one damn it just begin one and it might just be you
that turns up for the first few.
But then slowly but surely, more people will find you.
And you can find all the conferences on there as well
and just connect whenever you're traveling.
It's so great to use when you're traveling.
You get to a new place, the Open Orange Pill app,
and you find there's a bunch of Bitcoiners around
within like 5, 10, 20 miles.
It's like, okay, hey, where's the best pub?
Where's the best cafe?
Where's the best pizza place?
Where's the best steak place?
You know, whatever it is you want.
And before you know it, you're meeting these people
and they're showing you around
and you're treated like a long lost cousin
that's come out of nowhere to come.
It's unbelievable experience.
Orange pill app, get across there.
Swan Bitcoin, like I said, in the States,
you can stack with those guys.
Relay over here in Europe, across Europe,
R-E-L-A-I.ch forward slash bitten.
Download the app.
Make sure you store your words safely.
Nowhere on your phone.
Just make sure you store them, write them down
because the wallet is built into the app at Relay.
and have Relay Private as well
where you can tap into their services.
That's a white glove service
if you've got a large amount of fiat
that you want to exchange to Bitcoin
or you want to take your business
onto a Bitcoin standard.
Relay is the place for you.
Bitbox, like I said at the beginning
and just here as well,
bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten.
Save 5% with that code bitten.
Get over to plebeian.market.
Check out what you can buy with your sats.
Go find my book if you're so inclined.
I'll be signing copies at BTC Prague and you can find it at Bitcoin book.shop and use the code BITTON to buy my book and any others on there as well and get yourself a 10% discount.
And yeah, don't forget to check out Bubble.
Like I said at the beginning this is a really interesting interesting project The way I see it I just going to talk off the cuff a little bit i out of music but that always happens when i get a new shout out uh i have to find a new rhythm
and i've been completely knocked out my stride so i've got kaz he's one of the founders of of
bubble uh lined up to drop an interview with him and he's he's going to go through the whole thing
But imagine you're listening to 40 hours of podcasts per week because you're an absolute psychopath and you're on 2x speed.
But there's one particular subject that you want to dive into.
You want to get much better knowledge.
And it could be anything, right?
It could be the opera turn debate right now.
It could be mining in general.
It could be Austrian economics.
It could be whatever.
And you just want to find that specific content.
But you don't want to sit through the rabbit hole story, the back story.
you just want the meat and potatoes.
You can start going to bubble.fm forward slash join.
And what they're doing is they're building out a search engine,
which is called Aura, A-U-R-A.
And you'll be able to put in specific things that you want to listen to.
It's going to scan all the Bitcoin podcasts and download them for you.
And you could have a three and a half minute clip
of somebody talking about that particular topic on Stefan's show
or on my show or on Peter's show or on Breedlove's show or Marty's show or on Odell's show or on VK's
show like whoever you know Bram or Robin they whoever is talking about that specific topic
is going to get bundled up for you and you might end up with 45 minute or an hour long podcast
episode made up of all those clips going deep into the relevant points now I know I've rambled but
you know it's still making my head spin like it's going to be it could unlock so much greatness
and get everybody's education really honed honed on a subject far quicker than you'd ever been able
to before so go check it out that's all you can do bubble b-u-b-b-l dot f-m forward slash join
and like I say, link is in the show notes
and check out paywithflash.com as well
whilst you are hanging around.
Anyway, I've rambled, I've blabbered.
I'm going to BTC Prague.
I hope to find you guys there.
Come and say hi.
I will be spending time on the Bitcoin Infinity booth
because Canute and Luke have been kind enough
to offer me some space there
to be signing my books, Choose Life.
And I just love hanging out with those guys anyway.
So come say hi.
Looking forward to it.
Take care. Stack safe. Catch you on the next show.