Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.
This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can
around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean
for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so
much for listening. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of the Once Bitten podcast.
Joining me today is Andre Loja, a very good friend of mine from Madeira. This is the guy
that was responsible for putting together, with his team of course, but it was his big idea,
putting together the Free Madeira organization and you will learn what the acronym for free
stands for. It's genius. He's also the guy that managed to put together, again with an excellent
team, the Free Madeira concert. Not the concert. Well, there was a concert as well. That was on
the Saturday night. But the conference, we had the most amazing time. And look out for the next
conference in Madeira, which will be 2028. The original one took place March 2024. We had a
football stadium to fill and fill it we almost did with Bitcoiners. I can't imagine what Madeira
2028 is going to be like. If you've not been and visited Madeira you certainly should do. The
grassroots effort on the ground there is absolutely astonishing. You also have the
Sovereign Engineering Cohort over there which is run by Gigi where anybody can go and sign up
and do a two to three month long hackathon program to get your project off the ground or just get your
skills right to where they need to be so you can get your project off the ground there are bitcoiners
crawling all over the island there's hundreds of merchants that accept bitcoin you can literally
live there on a bitcoin standard it has a tropical climate it is a beautiful paradise and it's in
Europe and now with Andre's latest adventure he started a fund it's called
the Basalto fund that's spelled B-A-S-A-L-T-O and obviously we're gonna get
into the weeds of that but a quick nutshell review a Bitcoin investment fund
and golden visa pathway gain Bitcoin exposure and EU citizenship through ego
death funds the Balsalto fund where innovation meets residency so yes you can get a passport
and you will find out why just keep listening to this show and if it's something that you're
interested in looking at please reach out to Andre directly on his twitter feed or reach out to
Freemadeira or go find Balsalto fund on twitter or NOSTA all the links will be in the show notes
for you. It's a very interesting proposition and something, especially if you're a Brit,
might be looking into doing. Anyway, before we get into the show, please make sure you are
supporting the show sponsors. You can do that by visiting their website or downloading their apps
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Get over to paywithflash.com to figure out how you can start accepting Bitcoin now for your goods
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link in the show notes meanwhile here's andre all right we're recording andre we're back back
on the once bitten podcast good to see you mate good to see you man how are you how are you very
good i'm good thank you well lauren's here andre's relaxed fresh off of his holiday so you can't
phase him so go go ahead what what do you have oh my god the pressure daddy was telling me about
your project and about um an investment fund kind of thing and you invest and you're able to get like
um a portuguese passport or something like that um if you want you can explain more about it but
i want to know on how that would help people if you believe the portuguese passport is awesome
as you're saying no it is yeah it was it was an idea that we had for a long time um
a lot of Bitcoiners
you know with the plan B
having a plan B
European passport was
something worthwhile to have
and in the beginning
we thought about doing some real estate
mix where you could apply for the golden
visa but then the government
stopped that a while ago
you know
but it gave us an even better
idea so we created
this investment fund where we keep 80% of the investment in BTC directly and the other 80%
on VC investments on the ecosystem with our partners, EgoDeath. And that way you can invest
in Portugal, invest in ecosystem and at the same time apply for the Golden Visa.
Sorry, did you just say 80% and then how much invested in EgoDeath?
so we we invest a minimum of 80 percent in the asset directly into bitcoin yes into bitcoin
and up to 20 percent we will invest on ego death right okay i i i thought i thought you said 18 18
before but uh right okay 20 right okay got you uh so does that make sense then uh lauren right okay
And Ego Death is Jeff Booth's fund, which he runs with people like Lynn Olden and Preston Pish and a bunch of others.
So you are getting possibly the upside of any of the good deals that they make in their fund as well.
Yes, that's the idea.
And a Portuguese passport.
well but to begin with you get the the what you would call the golden visa uh the um no you get
the residency uh as soon as you we make the application um you you'll have to be you'll have
to visit portugal uh for you know a couple of weeks every two years so basically a week per year
um and you'll get uh after five years you you can get you will get the the portuguese passport
and you can reunite the the you know the spouse and the kids as well so that's for all everybody
right okay well you've set this up nicely lauren because we've got a hell of a lot of details now
the listeners are going to want to listen to about this especially if they're planning a plan b
very interesting for people in the uk uh because of the rug pull uh their their passport only
allows them to visit a maximum of 90 days in Europe.
When was the rug pull?
Time flies.
Well, they voted for Brexit in 2016, which, you know, whatever, decentralize all the things
down with that.
I wasn't at the time.
I was still very much a normie back in those days.
And part of that severance, which finally went through in 2018, was now you are a UK
passport holder and you don't have freedom of movement in air quotes because it is still in
air quotes yeah you don't have that freedom of movement in europe and you're not you'd need a
visa to apply to work and all this kind of stuff so if you were a digital nomad uh you know joe
nakamoto can talk about this a lot because this is what he's been doing he's been traveling a lot
uh on a uk or british passport all of a sudden you went from yeah i can spend as long as i like
in europe i can work in europe to 90 days and you're out pal and the funny thing is as you know
i had to when i visited uh england and we had this uh very cool launch in london um
i had to do the eta which was something that we were also not used to do to visit uh england that
so I had to do the KYC
and all the bullshit
and you know recognize my face
on a map
very dystopian so I could
you know go watch a play
it's all
all of this creep is so disgusting
it's so so disgusting
I just want it all to be gone
yeah what was the other thing I was going to say
about this stuff
passports, digital ID
I mean, this is where we're all heading.
Yeah, we were in France at the time this all started going on.
And it funny because a lot of the older generation Brits were all like voting Brexit Oh we don want to be governed by the the the assholes in Brussels anymore and whatever blah blah blah Like I said back in those days I was on the other side of the fence I would have voted to stay and be one big happy family and whatever
I've now changed my view on that.
Break up the EU.
Everybody should just start breaking away.
But look what's happening.
Bulgaria now is just about to start accepting euro and get rid of the nerve.
I actually saw
I saw it because I saw your post on Twitter
I wasn't even watching the news on that
So this creep
keeps coming but the
old people that
owned a house in France or
Spain who voted for
Brexit suddenly
got the shock
when they realised oh
we can't live here anymore
we can only stay 90 days
and then we've got to
or we've got to apply for a visa
and it's like wow guys like you know that explains that explains a lot about how people do not think
about stuff the second order effect yeah the second order effects because that probably that
rule probably wasn't on the table i don't know what policies were put out there up front but
as soon as these things happen you are literally green lighting bureaucrats to go crazy on rules
It's like, right now, OK, we've got to change all the fishing laws.
We've got to change all the visa laws.
We've got to change all the import-export laws.
Then you can bloat the government.
And that's why you end up with you guys.
When you visit the UK, you now have to take a selfie of yourself, pay.
How much was it for this ETA?
What does ETA stand for?
Well, that was not a problem, right?
The payment, although it's another tax.
but I was more
upset about the whole process
and it feels dystopian
like you have to download
an app and do the facial scan
and all of that
I would happily pay the tax not to do that
part
if it was just about the money but it's not
it's not
it's crazy up there
basically
anyway the walls are closing in
We have to fight back.
Opt out.
Right, Lauren, you want to say goodbye then?
Yeah, I can.
Thank you.
Thank you for answering my question.
Thank you, Lauren.
Thank you.
Bye-bye.
See you soon.
Yeah, thank you.
All right, well, that's where we'll start.
We've got like three or four different things that we want to touch on.
The fund obviously was one of them, but we may as well.
Now that carrot has been dangled to the listeners,
we should probably drill down into that.
So what's the name of the fund?
Let's start there.
So the fund is called Basalto Fund.
It was inspired by the hard rock in Madeira,
which is called Basalto, the black stone
where Madeira sits on top of.
We did use, it was a big inspiration
for the logo of Bitcoin Atlantis.
I don't know if you record that.
Yeah.
So we called it Basalto Fund,
you know, sitting on a hard base
and a hard foundation.
And a hard asset.
hard assets so as i was telling lord we can go a bit on more on the details as i was
and the history you know um a very a common friend of ours jeff booth we discussed this
a long time ago actually i think since the first visit that you guys made here in june 2022 yeah
and at the time they allowed
or you could apply for the golden visa
with a real estate investment
so the idea was
because I have some experience with real estate
my biggest fiat company
is an island of Parthas
the vacation rental management
and we do manage a lot of properties
here in the archipelago
because we do both Madera and Porto Santo
the smaller island
so we had the idea to create this fund
where we would invest in real estate
and manage the real estate
with the Bitcoin component of course
but then we were rug pulled by the government
you know all the
there was a socialist party
in the national government
there is still
they call it center right but it's not
but it's a bit better now
But at the time, there was a lot of pressure from the left wing parties at the parliament.
And of course, they blamed all the wrong things because of the housing prices and everything.
So they stopped.
One of the things they did was stop the real estate component of the golden visa investment.
What was the history of that?
How long had that already been running?
because I do remember a lot of people were using that to get the golden visa.
And why was it?
Yeah, but not as much as people think.
If you look at the overall numbers, it's not as much.
It didn't move the real estate market.
It was not at all the problem, right?
So that's nonsense.
And actually, yeah, it's nonsense.
And I would even argue that some of the investments were good
because there were some investments of building or renovating a building
to have apartments to rent.
So to put them on the market.
So it didn't make sense, but whatever.
They cut it out.
When did it start?
When did they start running that program?
I don't remember.
A long time ago.
It's been running for a while.
But then they stopped the real estate investment,
I don't know, two, three years ago.
I don't even recall it now.
Maybe two years ago.
So the idea just was there on the back burner.
but then I saw
this was the beginning of last year maybe
I don't know
I saw an investment fund
because that option was still available
you could invest in an investment fund
and apply for the golden visit
there was a company that did an investment fund
that claimed that they were the first Bitcoin investment fund
in Portugal and so on
but then you know when you look at the small letters it wasn't really like that right so
you there was the the gate was open for web3 and blockchain investments and companies based in
portugal and so on and even the btc that they were gonna buy was uh ibid was you know blackrock
ETF shares.
So my first reaction was,
bullshit.
Must be run by shitcoiners for sure.
But then, I don't know,
probably in the bath or running
as we always get the ideas.
I was like, what?
If these guys can do that,
maybe there's an option.
We can do a better product for Bitcoiners.
So I started digging
and I had no experience in investment funds whatsoever,
but I started digging, talking to a few friends.
I have some people that I know on my network
that are very experienced on that.
And we ended up talking with Nunu,
which is my partner in another business.
And he works as a very good tax lawyer in Lisbon.
And we started digging all the details
and we realized that, yes,
it would be possible to create a better product.
And so the idea is very simple, is of all the universe of investment funds that you can invest in Portugal that are eligible for the golden visa, we wanted to create an option just for Bitcoiners, where you wouldn't lose the exposure to the asset.
first of all
because most of the other
I would say 99.9% of the other
investment funds are fiat based business
like solar panels somewhere or housing
well not housing anymore but
you know different stuff
where you basically would have to sell
your Bitcoin to lose totally
the exposure to Bitcoin for 8 years
so 2 halvings
so yeah we ended up
designing it
as I was
saying to Lauren
a minimum of 80%
goes to BTC directly
we partnered with NIDIC
we wanted a big
reputable name to
work on the custody side of things
so we are working
exclusively with NIDIC for the custody
of the funds
we will even create, it's not done yet
but we'll create an open source
mempool page where you can see
the wallets
where you can see the assets that are under custody on the fund.
But we created a little bit of an incentive also to, you know,
to help the Bitcoin ecosystem as well.
So we partnered with EgoDead, Jeff Boots' company.
Niku and Andy, they run the company full-time,
but there's also Jeff, Preston and Lynn are very much involved
in all the details and investments they do.
Actually, they just closed the second fund at $100 million.
I don't know if you've heard of this, but...
We wanted to create a component
not only to help the ecosystem grow
and have all the right incentives in place,
but also I do believe in the work that they're doing.
And I believe they're going to be very successful.
So in my view, it was a way,
because our fund is also eight years in maturity.
So two halvings.
If you want to lock your Bitcoin for that much,
because we have fees, of course,
we charge 2% fees during the duration of the fund.
This was my way to, in the end,
give you more assets back
than the ones you invest in the beginning.
That's the whole idea.
And hopefully we can do that
with the ego debt and the VC investment side of the fund.
Yeah, I get it.
Right, okay.
So let's walk people through it
if they're kind of thinking,
this sounds too good to be true,
like a win-win-win situation.
I get the passport.
I'm forced into, it's a forced hodl, really.
Yeah, it is.
Eight-year forced hodl.
With the potentiality of getting back my investment,
perhaps even more if if you know things go all ego death all ego death need to have is is one big
exit on one of these investments and uh exactly if you're exposed to that that money i assume
comes back into the fund uh you will take obviously x amount of that um yeah how would
you structure that if there's a big exit money comes back into the fund so the whole idea that
the unit of measure is euros, of course, right?
So in euros, in that fiat sheet coin,
you will always get more euros back than you do
because even if the ego that side of things goes to zero let say worst case scenario you still have 80 of the investment in BTC directly And we all know in eight years how the asset is going to perform Actually
the whole idea is to not lose exposure to that depreciation, right? But we believe EgoDat is
going to
be successful.
And so I would even argue
that you can get, even if
you change the unit of account
to Sats, which is
our unit of account,
we want you to get more
Sats back than you invested
in the beginning. So we want
the investors to be Sats flow positive.
Even after the fees as well.
Yes, hopefully. That's the goal.
right man that's awesome so first of all we didn't even ask what's the minimum what's the
amount that people have to invest obviously that's going to be a euro amount and that's
going to be floating against the price of bitcoin um exactly the minimum amount is something like
50k but of course 50k does not uh you know that does not um uh it's not applicable for the golden
visa so if you do want um to be eligible for the golden visa um you have to invest a minimum of 500k
okay and that's the that's the existing rules for the golden visa for another investment if you were
to like invest in a solar farm or whatever else that's what other people are doing that's 500 000
that's the set to apply for the golden visa which gets you the residency card which eventually gets
you the passport
for your whole family?
Yes.
Regardless of how many kids you've got?
If they are still under your supports,
that's the rule.
Okay.
So if you have
10 kids and they're all, you know,
the oldest one is still
in university, all the other ones are still paying
for their food and
housing and whatever. If they're
still under your wing,
they can all apply for
family reunification. So basically they can all apply for the golden visa, of course.
And I have to clarify one thing. So the 500K is the minimum investment that you eligible
for the golden visa. But then the golden visa process, it's on the side of this, right?
You have to, we can help you do that, or you can work with whatever company you desire.
You can work with a legal firm in Lisbon to do the golden visa process.
And there will be costs to that as well.
Because the government charges a fee per applicant,
which is around 13 something K euros.
So 13,000 euros per applicant.
It's a lot of money still.
And there will be fees like tax representative and this and that.
there's some stuff that you need to pay on the side
for the golden visa process.
We estimate that for an individual,
for the whole process,
it will set you something like 540K.
So 40K for the whole golden visa and legal fees and all of that.
Okay, for one individual.
So if you're a family of six, like we are,
I would be paying...
That will be a lot because, for example,
I can search you.
So the government fee, for example,
is 13.3 so 13 300 euros per applicant go ahead regardless of six it's a lot yeah wow okay no
that's yeah but that's you know nothing you can do it's just the rules that's yeah yeah yeah i
mean it's it's the information that we have yeah we all have to pay the tax right uh so the
it's interesting that this isn't just the fund for the golden visa so somebody could
so if they're not even thinking about the the passport or the residency they could if they
wanted to 50 000 euros into the fund that gets held for eight years the idea being after eight
years even after fees you're more than likely or you you definitely have a chance let's put it that
way because nothing is risk-free of course you you have the chance of getting back more bitcoin
than you put in yes and you can do the you can do that regardless of the golden visa of course
it's a lot more it was designed in the end for bitcoin is one of the plan b uh but it while we
were designing and researching all of it we also saw some use cases for other people for example
because in the end, in the maturity
and when we pay out the SATs back again
for example
for non-residents, it's tax-free
I mean the capital gains
and the way it works is
for example, if you say
you invested the 500k
and let's just, for the sake of calculations
say that we doubled
and now the investment is 1 million
we will give you back
the 500k
and then on the capital gain, so the other 500k,
we charge 10% because that's the fund structure.
It's 2% management fee and 10% on the gains in the end.
And the other 90%, you get it back tax-free.
So this makes, of course, it depends on the jurisdiction
where you're doing this,
but it may make sense for a lot of people
because I'm just going to drop this out there.
Let's say you're American.
And if you want to sell your Bitcoin,
because you do have...
Unfortunately, we cannot accept the 500k in Bitcoin directly
because of the rules.
We have to accept it in euros on a Portuguese bank account.
Damn. Right. Okay.
That's a shame.
That's a shame because I tried otherwise,
but it's not possible because of rules.
so we need to accept the euros but let's say there's two options let's say you're an american
either you have some fiat on the side you're already wealthy you have some cash that you want
you can invest directly or you do have to sell some bitcoin but in in the in the us case you will be
uh taxed on your capital gains if you do sell your bitcoin but i'm not sure exactly do you know how
how much the tax is in the States
for the capital gains on Bitcoin?
I do not, no.
I'm not sure,
but I'm sure they're way bigger than zero.
Keep talking.
I'll find out.
I'll ask Venice AI.
It's bigger than zero.
Yeah.
So you could sell it,
pay that tax now
when the Bitcoin is 100K per Bitcoin.
In eight years,
it may be 1 million, right?
so if it appreciates
inside the fund
and then when you cash out in the end
it's not you know you won't pay taxes
in Portugal that may
make sense for you a lot
but it depends on your local structure
like I cannot this is not
you know tax advice I don't really know
what to do
right
okay oh there's a bracket
15%
so in the highest bracket you'd be paying 20 percent uh additionally there is a 3.8 percent
net investment income tax and a nit what is that that applies to investment income for high
income taxpayers this tax it wow yeah it's taxes on they do not mind do they just absolutely well
these nation states mate these mafia run companies that are just completely
so but well just to say that there may be there may be some use cases but the world is so big
that we don't know how it works on their jurisdictions we don't know even after maturity
when we pay it back if you bring it to the u.s maybe they'll tax it again uh on the u.s side
how can you know in eight years time yeah it depends it depends a lot on the jurisdictions
It depends on how the US law, because that will be applicable eight years from now.
It depends on how the US law will treat Bitcoin at the time.
There are so many variables that it's very hard to comprehend everything.
So the flow is somebody, a Bitcoiner that is interested in this, and we use two examples,
just wants the exposure to the fund, would have to sell out of like half a Bitcoin, let's say,
in your local currency, whether that's euros, pounds, or dollars,
to get that 50,000 to get that across to your fund.
And then with that, you would use 80% of that 50,000
to buy a Bitcoin directly through NYDIG.
A minimum of 80%.
And we've kept it that way because we don't know exactly
what the opportunities that will show up at EgoDebt
when the investors start dripping in.
So we kept it this way.
A minimum of 80%, so that's the lowest amount we're going to keep directly in BTC,
and up to 20% on the EgoDebt side.
So NYDIG buy and custody the Bitcoin?
Yes.
Themselves, or is there another layer of...
No, themselves.
Themselves, right, okay.
And then...
We wanted to go with the top dog, the most respected custody guy.
Yeah, of course.
so then you got
the fun side of things
and then the other example would be
a single person
that wanted the passport
the plan B or a family
they would need to get the 500,000 euros
sent across to you, that would be fun
Fiat Rail
sending that amount of money
like yeah
so when that hits
we already did that
because we
onboarded
we've finished the first investor successfully
and many are doing the process now.
So far, there hasn't been any issues,
but of course it depends on the issuer bank
on the other side.
Okay, so people have already...
So walk us through,
what kind of hurdles did you face?
Because the first couple are always going to be
kind of quite difficult.
Yeah, well, I was actually...
I wanted to see the process myself
on the first onboarding of the investor.
And it's not an easy process,
as you know like because there's a lot of regulations for there's a lot of kyc involved
there's just just no way around it they ask for all the documents all the wild side stuff and you
know residency you know where you're living where you're doing are you scratching what vaccines do
you take i'm just overreacting but you know it's it's a process um so it usually takes actually
almost two months just for that process to finish uh from start to finish and of course it depends
on the collaboration of the investor as well,
sending all the details and all the documents,
criminal records, all those things.
But it's doable.
It's just a pen in the ass.
Right.
Damn.
So it's already up and running.
So people can now apply.
It is.
Yeah.
So that exciting because usually people come on and they just say oh this is what we planning and we going to go live you know Q2 of next year TM No no no no It running Q2 We already Q2 but it was launched at the end of Q1 still
Well, well done, mate.
So how can people then, like, get involved, get to you?
Is it best to reach out to you directly, go through the website?
Yeah, just you can go through the website.
It's just a very simple, informative website.
You can find it at basalto.fund.
And there you'll have direct contact to us
or even just send us an email at info at basalto.fund.
And we'll do a first call and then start the process.
Okay, cool.
Have we covered the fund?
I mean, it sounds great.
Is there anything else you need to drill down into?
I don't think so.
So, you know, when creating this, all the regulations,
all the things we had to do to bring it to the finish line was a lot
because there's the regulatory agency,
there's, you know, the mother fund in Lisbon
because we're working with a company called Stag in Lisbon
to create the...
They are the fund managers.
We are the ones who invest the assets in the company below,
in the Madeira company.
It was a process.
But now that it's done, it's actually a very simple proposition.
especially for Bitcoiners.
We invest 80% in BTC and 20% in EgoDat.
There's no more complications.
There's no, you know,
showing the business plan of the solar factory
in, you know, South Alentejo, you know,
and saying that, you know, in November it rained,
so it wasn't that big of a production.
So it's a very simple proposition,
and I'm very happy that it is.
You know, it's very straightforward.
so come pay out would that have to be paid out in euro again no no we will give you the stats back
directly so okay it's got to be euros on the way in but come the term eight years are up you can
just send across a btc address and yes that's cool and the fund uh excuse me the fees for the fund
that are paid yearly?
They are paid yearly.
It's 2%
of assets under management.
So do you just
draw the funds down from
the holdings you have?
Yes.
You don't have to contact me to send you...
No, no, no.
Right, I see.
We'll just charge 2% on the average
size of the fund
at any given year for the 8 years.
Mm-hmm.
cool i like you mate well done congratulations you're running another business
just what you wanted just as my wife wanted
so let's talk about free madeira now because that was that was your original initiative uh in no it
wasn't your original initiative in space was monstera books i was gonna correct you know
you know the whole story so yeah well let's start with monstera first because we'll do it in order
we'll go monstera free madeira and then we'll we've done the fund we're doing it back to front
and then we'll talk about sovereign engineering i guess before monstera i was a twitter lurker
i was just that was your first role exactly so monstera monstera so monstera as you know was
my first project when I was you know still a anonymous bitcoiner in Madara and I wanted to
do something in the space because I was infected you know blah blah blah blah turned it into a
business that I didn't know anything about but I did start anyway and I started a bitcoin
publishing company because I wanted some good literature on bitcoin for Portuguese people
it all started with Jeff's
book
as you know, The Price of Tomorrow
in Portuguese and then we did
I think we have like
five or six published right now
and we
did stop for a while
because there was just too much happening
in my life
but for the last
six to eight months we pushed
it really hard, we're going to launch
like quarter two of this year, it's going to be
amazing for us because we're going to launch
a bunch of new books
and I mean a lot of them
like the Sovereign Individual
which is a great title
it was never translated
to Portuguese before so that will be
the first one actually almost launching
we have yours
actually finally
on the pipeline
what is Choose Life
in Portuguese I wouldn't even know
Escolha Vida
I love it already
so we have
both of Alex Gladstein
book
Check Your Financial Privilege
and Hidden Repression
we have
Aaron Van Vierden book
what's the name
Genesis
I have to check the list
because there's so many
I think it's around 12 books
that we're going to launch very soon
because we invested again like crazy
and we made all the translation editions at the same time.
So they will be launched on a very quick succession now.
And also the big news is we finally have partners in Brazil
and Mozambique as well.
So we are covering basically, you know, well, not all of them,
but the biggest Portuguese-based markets.
Next is Angola.
and yeah so we are you're aiming to be the best publishing house for portuguese literature on
bitcoin and freedom you know self-sovereignty that's awesome mate so if anybody's listening
to this and is inspired is there any way that they can help what what's what do you need
from well buy the books if you're portuguese buy the books of course yeah if you're portuguese buy
dozens of books and give them around
to your community and
leave them in coffee shops, do whatever
it takes. Yeah, that would help
because actually most set of books, it's a very
hard business. Publishing a house,
it's very, very hard.
So far, I've just lost money on it.
But it's a passion project
and
we've been pushing it very hard.
And you know, you might think
Rick, right? Rick works with us
at Frima d'Ara.
not only is a very nice guy
he's the head of education of
FrimaData as well, he's been doing the workshops
and the courses and all the
on the education part
and he became my partner
at Montserrat
and he's also
very
we are not, let's say we're not
thinking on the profits only on Montserrat
of course we would love to
make it sustainable
but it's a passion project in the end
and we actually changed the name.
It's not Monstera Books anymore.
It's called Monstera Media
because we have a surprise coming.
We are launching an app as well.
And I love the idea of the app.
I can't tell much about it,
but we already have a test flight.
We are testing it.
And it's a wallet
exclusively for spend and replace
because it was something
that we felt it was missing
among all the offerings of wallets in the world
and something that we felt was missing
for our own community in Madara
because there was no easy solution
to spend the sets and just buy them back
and replenish.
So we created an automated process to do that
that every time that you buy
it replenishes your wallet again
and it's going to be called SatsFlow.
but i'll i'll send all the info soon we'll talk about it soon that sounds very cool mate because
yes many people that do the spend and replace they'll go in and they'll buy their their coffees
or their beers or their pizzas wherever they are that they can support people get their haircut
but then they've got to go to a different app and they've got to buy back the sats if this is what
they want to do yes so to have that all in one place and did you tell me at lunch i remember you
dropping this um that you could even incorporate like a sliding scale and stack like a psycho like
spend and replace like a psycho or something exactly that was you know my psycho part
working because when we were designing the thing i then said wait wait wait wait this can be a much
uh this can be much more i'm a psychopath i don't want to when i spend 10 euros of bitcoin i don't
to get 10 euros back of it and i want to get 50 so so let's let's mine more fields so basically
there's a lever on the app and you can choose that you know three times every time you spend 10 you'll
buy 30. so in a way it's a way to spend help the community help the merchants you know spread
spend and replace but at the same time dca and buy more bitcoin and you know if after a while
the wallet is you full of bitcoin is as we all want uh you can choose to cold store and send in
one transfer to your cold wallet love it mate okay so that's going to be monstera media and
you've got the app coming out yes primid era primal era so bitcoin atlantis was very successful
as you want to we should we should go through the acronym again because it was a stroke of genius
What does free actually stand for?
I have to say that it was a friend of mine that had that name in place.
When I was setting up the association, I came up with some really bad names.
I remember it.
I could actually never remember it.
It was like MFRAO.
No, they were really bad.
But I couldn't make up a good name.
And then I was having a conversation with Paulo, a local guy.
is actually the head of the economy chamber here in Madeira.
He met him.
He met him actually in the first trip in June at the time.
And he was saying, because he's very libertarian as well,
and he was saying, oh, that's cool.
You do the association.
You know, I wanted to do one once.
It was all about libertarian purposes.
It was called Free Madeira.
For regional forum for economic education.
I was like, perfect.
Can I steal it from you?
That was the whole
he said, of course, steal it away.
Excellent.
It turned into
free Madara, which is amazing.
Of course, some people
think we are trying to
escape Portugal and
become independent,
which I wouldn't mind,
but that's
not the purpose so it's called the forum you know but i think it's on economic which literally
translates to regional forum for economic education economic education which is what
we're all here for so the um the formation of that stems back
back to June.
Well, no, April 2022, when we were in Miami.
The trip was in June,
and then we officially launched it in October.
Right.
But I think it was October next year, right, in Amsterdam?
I don't know.
Time is very confusing now.
Bitcoin time.
I think it was only next year
because there was all the legal part of the association,
and it took a while.
And the idea being you wanted to set up a place where you could concentrate on getting economic education out to the people of Madeira.
And well, with, you know, the idea of Monstera is Portuguese speaking world.
But yeah, that was an incredible thing to watch.
And then you snuck in Bitcoin Atlantis.
Yeah. So, well, you were part of the advisory board.
So, you know, we started having some meetings, some ideas for the association.
I wanted to touch education.
I wanted to touch business, you know, accommodate businesses.
I wanted to relocate to Madera, for example, and help them with all the tax parts and accommodations and co-working.
And, of course, education, energy, which is still in the conversation.
And we did a small summit in Lisbon just about energy that we can speak a little bit about.
So, you know, Bitcoin touches everything, right?
So there's a lot to do.
But then I had the idea and I asked you guys on one of the advisory meetings that we were having, you know, if we could do a conference just, you know, to kickstart things, right?
And to get Trimadera out there.
In the beginning, I thought it was only the advisory board, something small.
But then as usual, it got way out of hand and it became this massive conference.
You know, especially Jeff was really, you know, starting getting guys like Jack Dorsey on board.
And then we got Michael Saylor and then Jack Mahlers.
And then it was like a cascade of speakers, over 200 speakers that came in the end to Madara.
so it was this massive
and
fucking great conference
sorry for the English
it was so successful
everybody had a great time
there was a lot of side events
the music festival, the dinners, the parties
there was a lot of
businesses also on the side
and meetings and podcasts
and there were so many things happening
in Madera during that conference
and it was the perfect
start to Free Madera
honestly it was amazing mate that that conference was everybody's favorite who went and very special
memories a lot of tears a lot of emotion a lot of love a lot of uh emotional release uh so great to
see so many families there as well that was and the fact that it was all outside in the football
stadium you know bathed in natural light one of the best yeah the venue was amazing we were lucky
also with the weather.
Even the Bitcoin price was ripping.
So the kids' idea was amazing.
The family,
embracing the families
in the conference.
It made the vibe very positive,
very energetic.
Man, you know,
I was so happy.
I couldn't believe
that I was able to bring
all those people to Madara
and make such a magical week.
It was amazing.
I have no idea if Madeira has concerts.
Obviously, they have football games,
but did you get any feedback on how big the event was
compared to anything else that's happened?
Look, it was by far, and I mean by far,
the biggest conference in Madera ever.
Wow.
Actually, we did it in the stadium
because there was no other place to do it.
There's no conference space of that size.
I think the biggest one before was like 1,000 people
and it was already like crazy.
We had 3,000 in the stadium.
And we did a small, actually, we should publish that more.
We did a study on the economical impact in Madera
and it's all, I think, 7 million in the end
of direct economical impact.
And that's the direct part.
So yeah, it was great, not only for us,
but for Madera as well, overall.
That's crazy. And so at that point, and Free Madeira, one of the big plus points of Free Madeira is that you've got Charlie going around doing his thing, trying to get as many, he's such a hustler, trying to get as many merchants to accept Bitcoin as he possibly can.
So let's talk about those metrics. Where was that before the conference started? And where is that today?
so before the conference started there was almost almost anything uh and actually that was a decision
as well because well we were just starting uh first of all and i didn't want to create the
demand without having well the supply without having the demand as well uh because i think it
didn't make sense to have a lot of merchants while not having you know the community there yet and
the payments but then we started gradually increasing especially after the conference of
course and the impact of the conference and charlie's doing a great work is managing the
merchants but also the store the store has been great as well we have a store online where we
sell a lot of gear and hardware stuff and you know all bitcoin stuff of course besides the
books that we're doing in portuguese and now i think it's i don't even know it's like 160 merchants
now um and you can basically live on a bitcoin standard now on a set standard now because you
have supermarkets you have you have everything um we have people in madera that don't touch euros
that's crazy yeah and it attracted the that's the thing as well about the the conference like
the economic impact but it also attracted people to move there i i know a handful of people moved
there or still even thinking about it now and they're still they're still coming they're still
dripping uh we have you know very frequent contacts of people who moved people who are moving soon or
people who are just verifying still they still come oh i'm gonna be reaching out i'm coming there
for a couple of weeks i want to talk to you guys i want to check out the place to see if it's good
for me you know so it's still happening and hopefully it keeps happening yeah i'm pretty
sure it will mate especially now you've uh talked about this fund at the beginning i think you're
going to get a lot of people yeah and sorry to interrupt and people those people bring projects
as well which is one of the goals in the beginning like uh as you know we started sovereign engineering
um as well in madera with a bunch of bitcoiners sovereign engineering is going to start its fifth
cohort now in the end of September. It's been very successful. Gigi is living here in Madera
and Handels is the captain of the thing. But there's also Pablo Fernandez and Martijn and
myself involved. We've been getting a lot of Bitcoiners, Nostra developers, FreedomTech
developers here in Madera for the cohorts. A lot of them are basically based in Madera now.
But we had great guys like Justin Moon and Kali and many others we having I think
30 again in September and October
for two whole months for the cohorts
let's not brush over
that because people might not have heard of that
the SEC it's not the SEC
as you think it is it's the Sovereign
Engineering Cohort
which is run by Gigi
and Pablo and has
been for the last four or five times uh that they've done this and it is for people that want
to uh level up or start a project or learn how to code or how to you know add value into the
bitcoin space or the monster space whatever it is maybe they've got an idea yes and uh they apply
right you have to go through an application process and if you're accepted uh you're going
to be living on Madeira for two months like it is it is go time it's free you don't pay anything
of course you have to pay your own expenses like flights and accommodations and so on
we now have a lot of captains that take over during the weeks people are already here for
two three times because they love it and yeah it's it's it's basically a meeting of minds to
build on the right direction you know I'm not as I'm not as fluent in words the way Gigi is
I would advise people to read
what he posts on Nostra
but also we're launching
a new website very soon
actually at sovereignengineering.io
you will still find the old
one but the new one is amazing
and it's going to launch very soon
I would say I don't know I don't want to make promises
I don't know when this is going to air
but I would say one week two weeks from now
it should be up and running
and there there's the whole
philosophy of sovereign engineering
written by Gigi with his magical words.
And, you know, it's much better than me explaining it to you guys.
Yeah, for sure.
And that all goes down still at the co-working place
or did they change the location?
Yes, although we are trying,
I'm still trying to get the hub up and running, as you know.
One of the big goals of Frimadara is to do the hub,
a physical hub for the community
where we want to headquarter Frimadara,
the store and the education rooms but also we want to have a space for the company so a co-working
space you know i manage a co-working space already but i want to make one specific for this community
because we already have a lot of people the community is growing we have a lot of projects
i want to base software engineering there as well and also you know also other projects that come
and i know uh chief monkey he was one of the guys that went along to the sovereign engineering and he
started uh plebeian market which people that they hear me talk about plebeian mark plebeian dot
market uh before or after the show because that was his way he wanted to to build he wanted to
create something for people that uh are designing things in in bitcoin for sale in bitcoin for
people who want to support them and spend bitcoin whether it's spend or replace or if you're just
fully now on a bitcoin standard uh you know build out the parallel economy so it's not it's not for
just full-on coding geeky dev type people is for absolutely anyone and i think that's really worth
well you have you have to be a dev uh to be part of it basically uh or at least a designer a good
design it especially because they also need
the back end and front end
UX for most things
that they're building but in the end the goal
is to have actionable
businesses
coming out of it of course mostly based
on the protocols on Nostra
and FreedomTex and so on
but I was actually searching
here for the
for the amount
of stuff that already came out of it
which is crazy
I was
shit I can't find it now
but already a lot of
projects real life projects
came out of
the conversations of the mixing
of minds and the ideas that come
into fruition and now with AI
and vibe coding they get stuff
out like mushrooms
it's crazy to see from
the side I'm not a developer
it's amazing to see the
amount of stuff these guys can create in such
a short span
And well, it's crazy, crazy project, crazy good project.
Awesome.
All right.
So if anybody's listening, go to sovereignengineering.io and look into that.
And the last thing I think we need to talk about is you mentioned it briefly.
You had the small energy focused conference, which you threw in Lisbon.
So instead of you doing another great big conference every year, you've decided to do
Free Madeira once every four years.
I think that's a brilliant plan, by the way.
Thank you.
So next time would be what, March, 2028?
Is that kind of when you're thinking?
Well, we don't know if March exactly, but yeah, 2028.
Right, but around like, so 2028.
But block out your diaries for the first half of 2028,
because Bitcoin Atlantis will be at some point
during those first six months.
But then you had the idea of, again,
on the economic educational side of things,
which is what Free Madeira is all about,
throwing small, very focused, specific conferences.
and you started with the energy one.
So just talk us through what you did there.
Yeah, because I think there's, well, there's also in Bitcoin altogether,
but there's a big, big misunderstanding of how Bitcoin mining
can help the energy grids in Portugal and in Madara,
which is where I'm more interested, right?
And it's been hard to pass the message.
so I had the idea
and it was part of the
the motto of FreeModelle as well
because as you said
I had the idea of doing the big conference every four years
keep it very special
keep it like a big festivity for Bitcoiners
to come over and enjoy
but part of that reasoning
was to get the other ears free
to build other stuff
and to work on other stuff
and education
and these small summits can be very very important
so the first one was free energy summit
and we decided to do it in Lisbon
so we can get easily more people
involved in the energy space there
so we did it
and we brought
Daniel Batten
Eric Erzman
from Gridless
and Daniel Closer that works with him at Gridless
he also came
we brought Max Guy
we brought Rachel Geyer from TerraHash
we brought Max
and
Obi?
Erold from
the
energy guys from
Austria.
Oh, I'm sorry.
My mind is full of information.
And it was
amazing because we did get a lot
of energy guys involved
and finally
the door
opened on some of the private
energy producers in Azores and Madara.
So we're now having deeper conversations with them
and we're going to start some test pilots
on their operations,
which was exactly what we wanted to achieve.
So it was very successful.
Wow So they actually sat up and listened at this time Yes Yes not the public entities unfortunately not yet But the private guys they have different incentives and they listened
Interesting.
And what kind of test pilots do you think is going to get rolled out?
Are you going to be looking at solar or wind or tidal?
So these are guys, yeah, these are guys that have solar and wind operations.
And they curtail, you know, the drill, the usual drill,
because there's too much production.
They have to curtail.
on the other side there's the government doing this massive million tens of million dollar
investments in batteries that are ineffective and very costs you know it's crazy so now we are doing
some test pilots with miners on the on the on the operations themselves before connecting to the grid
so they can you know not only do not cut the operations increase their funding for expansion
or for other projects that they might interest them and not curtail.
So basically, it's a consumer of last resort for these operations in Madara and Azores.
So for those people wondering what curtail means,
it means that it's when they switch off the wind tire line, for example,
because they produce too much energy.
It can't be stored anywhere.
Even if the wind's blowing, they just have to turn the damn thing off.
It's just so ridiculous.
so actually you know funny enough last month i don't know if you saw it in the news probably not
but there was a blackout in europe i know it started in spain and it came to portugal and
there was a whole day and we all know of course people who know um are very much aware that this
was because of the spikes of of renewables in spain and because all the grids are interconnected
it basically created havoc
some gear malfunctioned
and you know
ended up in a huge blackout
in Portugal
the majority of Portugal
was in the dark
for several hours
and it was enough
you know how people work
it was enough
for you know
toilet paper already being run out
in supermarkets
and water
and you know
and this was just a few hours
right
and again bitcoin fixes this absolutely so it was crazy to be in madonna just saying
jesus christ this is very fixable very fixable you know have they are these little projects
these test pilots are they live yet or are they still getting no no no we're still doing the
calculations it's gonna take a bit that's the problem with these projects they always take
There's so much administration and red tape and whatever else.
And obviously, you've got to get the hardware in place,
and that's got to get shipped over.
It's not like, okay, let's plug in some S9s and away we go.
But hopefully, it ramps up.
Because if you do a test pilot and it's successful and they're happy,
they're going to spread the word.
In the world of energy producers, I understood that.
It's a very small world as well.
They all know each other.
So hopefully it ramps up fast after the first test.
Well, well done.
What's the next small conference then?
You've got your eyes set on.
Well, we don't have any other thing planned for now in terms of summits.
We do want to repeat the free energy summit in Lisbon next year.
We're going to make it a yearly thing because it's very hard, the first one always.
And although it was successful, I think we can do a lot more.
well you'll have data as well to show
exactly especially if we already have
stuff in place to show off
so we want to do a second one
next year
that's already in the plans but
as far as other summits
go well for now
we're doing the monthly meetups
monthly meetups are still a thing so
if you're on holiday in Madeira
if you're on holiday in Madeira just go find the monthly
meetup freemadeira.com
and the Bitcoin walks every
Saturday that's right
Jacob lives here now.
I know.
He moved after the Free Madeira conference.
He's like, right, that's it.
We're moving.
I'm telling my wife.
End of story.
It's a perfect place for him because Bitcoin walk and Madera is known.
It's worldwide reputable for the walks, for the trails.
So it's perfect.
I think we've covered absolutely everything, mate.
except the final question.
And I know you know what that is,
but if you had one last orange pill
left to give to somebody...
Now I do.
Who would you give it to and why?
Man, I'm going to repeat the same answer, actually.
Because as a Madeiran,
Cristiano Ronaldo is the voice of Madera.
and unfortunately he's a shit coiner still
he's a payout of Binance
he does the Cristiano Ronaldo NFTs and so on
but I do believe
I still do believe
because he's the major example
in my view
of proof of work
he made himself the best footballer in the world
because he works like crazy
he still does
some people don't like him because of stuff
but he shows, he has results to show for himself.
He started as a very, in a very, very poor family
in a district here in Fushal, you know,
with a very hard family, very hard story,
but true proof of work and being the first one in practice
and the last one living and always taking care of his body
and always a body and always wanted to be better.
You know, he can have some flaws now of, you know,
buying 300 you know audis whatever like not audis lamborghinis and whatever cars he may have
but i think he's entitled to he made himself like he's he's he's he's the the truest example of
proof of work unfortunately i think it's too busy of a life to truly understand bitcoin
uh also he doesn't need it right um and that was just another sponsorship in his life uh someone
that paid them money to do some sponsorship, whatever.
So I think if he flipped and he truly understood Bitcoin,
being from Madera, being Portuguese,
he could, you know,
he's the one guy that is most followed in the world,
by far, on all the socials.
So he could make a lot of a difference.
Did you ever get the book in his hands?
Do you know?
We don't know.
I tried.
Well, for those people listening, Andre had, well, Safer Dean wrote a beautiful note in Portuguese in the Bitcoin standard in a Portuguese edition of the Bitcoin standard.
And it was, as far as we're aware, it was gifted to him through channels.
And who knows?
We never know if it reached his hands, first of all.
Yeah, you do never know.
But that's out there now.
That's out there in the world, in the ether, and you never know.
Well, if some Bitcoiner listens to this somewhere and has some proper access to Christiana
on a more direct way, please tell them we sent them a book.
Make sure to read it There a little note from the author He be very thrilled to see a little retweet or something of that
That'll be perfect.
I do remember when he announced that Binance affiliation
because he was on the island of Mallorca
when we were on the island of Mallorca.
And he tweeted it.
And I'm like, dude, I'm literally 20 minutes from you.
I will get in a cab right now and come and explain to you.
why this is a bad idea like come on like just the damage that this is it's so bad like you say like
you said yeah he doesn't need bitcoin but these guys they probably need it more than anyone because
they're wealthy how do you protect it's a cool thing the nfts and this image and it's very well
you know it's very he cares about his image a lot as you know but yeah um oddly enough actually on
that Samuel showed me the other day because
he follows him on whatever social
network it is
that he's now using
red light therapy on his legs
after games and after training
well maybe he's listening to Jack Cruz
come on Jack
get hold of Cristiano
let's get him another
five years playing time and then
Jack to Orange Pilling
at the same time
well it would be amazing because the guy
you know as Samuel
500 million other people
follow him on Instagram for example
it's crazy numbers
and a lot of
Madarin people look up to him
so if he
could you know
if he understood it and
would be vocal about it it would
make such a huge difference
but it's
just a pipe dream for now
for now mate for now
look you've had crazier ideas in your life
like launching a fund
true
Andre always great to hang
really look forward to seeing you again in person
it was lovely to see you and Philippa
when you're here in London
I'm not sure when we'll be to Madeira next time
let me know when you organize this
hopefully you know you're welcome
anytime
I know we can just jump on a plane
and come home with you guys
but when you organize the energy thing again
in Lisbon let me know
I'll hop down there and come hang out with you guys and whatever else is going to make it down.
So looking forward to that.
Thank you.
Thank you for the invite.
No problem, mate.
Take care.
Well, there you go, everybody.
And thank you again, Andre, for coming back on the show.
Thank you for everything you are doing for Bitcoin and Bitcoiners.
So if you want to go and check out this fund, like I said, just hit up the website, B-A-S-A-L-T-O dot fund.
That's Basalto or Basalto dot fund.
And it's all there.
But more importantly, reach out to me if you want to get directly in touch with Andre.
But otherwise, just email them through the website or DM Andre.
or if you're going to one of the conferences which you should really
consider because Andre is going to be in Riga that's coming up 8th 10th of
August you can get over to the the Baltic honey badger conference there use
the code bitten B-I-T-T-E-N for a 10% discount on your ticket purchases or get
to Helsinki which is the week after so it's conference mania in August
Europe is honestly such a great place for Bitcoiners right now and pure Bitcoin
only conference content we just had Prague that was amazing we've got Riga
coming up we've got Helsinki there's a bunch of other stuff going on like local
events there's always something locally for you to find get on orange peel app
to find out where all of these events are taking place there's gonna be one in
the UK soon Bury St Edmunds there's always something going on at Cypher Monk
House in London they have a great place there in Bloomsbury it's awesome there's
always an initiative and it's always listed on orange pill app so go to
orange pill app hit the link in the show notes get yourself signed up yes it is a
paid subscription because we don't want the crypto bros and the bots on there
And if it's free, you're the product.
So you pay $4 a month and you can pay in Lightning, excuse me, via the Lightning Network in Bitcoin, in Sats, and find your people.
There's almost 17,000 Bitcoiners on that app now.
There's over 600 events listed on that app.
And you can sort it whether, you know, you want to sort it by date or whether you want to sort it by what's nearest you.
So you can get along and you can start meeting Bitcoiners and you can start building.
Go and check out, like I said at the beginning here, the Sovereign Engineering Cohort is currently looking for new recruits over on Madeira.
If you want to go and spend a few months on Madeira with Bitcoiners, hopping your skills, learning something completely new, connecting with just one of the most amazing Bitcoin networks.
It's heavily lent towards NOSTA as well.
So you've got that beautiful blend of decentralization going on.
and like I said you can even live on a Bitcoin standard over in Madeira right
now even for your rental that's one of Andre's other businesses he has a rental
business where you can rent directly from him in Bitcoin and last time I was
there he hooked me up with a car rental company so I could rent my car in
Bitcoin I got my haircut in Bitcoin you can do your shopping in Bitcoin you can
go to your bars, restaurants, cafes, and spend Bitcoin. Anything. It's happening. And if you're
not part of it, what are you doing? If you're still sitting on the sidelines lurking on Twitter,
now's the time. Step forward. Go meet your plebs. Get to one of these conferences. Get an orange
pill app. Start building. Start building whatever it is that you can do to add into this ecosystem,
this parallel economy. Get over to plebeian.market. Chief Monkey designed that. When he was on one of
the sovereign engineering cohorts.
And this is a place where you can go and find
goods and services and pay in Bitcoin.
It's an incredible, incredible initiative.
And I know David Bennett started one over in the US
called the Circle K.
Not the Circle K.
Strange things afoot at the Circle K, Ted.
No, it's the Circle P, inspired by the Circle K.
So get over to Dave Bennett's show, Bitcoin And,
and go listen to that.
I just had him on the show again.
We talked about his Forrest Walker project.
Not much left to say.
Stack your sats.
Go find Swan Bitcoin in the US.
SwanBitcoin.com forward slash bitten.
Find Relay across Europe.
R-E-L-A-I dot C-H forward slash bitten.
You can download the Relay app.
You've got a wallet built in right there.
And it's lightning enabled.
That is your wallet.
It's a self-custodial wallet.
Write down your words.
Keep them safe.
Start stacking up to 1,000 Swiss or equivalent per day.
Set up your dollar cost average.
excuse me your fiat cost average get over to paywithflash.com listen to these podcasts on
fountain app and go and check out bubble i gave the read at the beginning bubble.fm b-u-b-b-l.fm
helps you curate your podcast so you can listen to the most important topics of the week thank
you everybody for listening i hope you enjoyed this one reach out to andre take care and i'll
catch you on the next show