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Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.

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This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can

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around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin could mean

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for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show. Thank you so

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much for listening. Hello everybody, welcome to this episode of the Once Bitten podcast. Joining

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me today is author Neil Flesher, who has written a book, Modern Chains, The Invisible Shackles of

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Economic Slavery. Now that might trigger a few people, that word slavery, and Neil is very

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careful to define. What I loved about this book was the definition of all the words and

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getting things straight and to the point and trying to clear up the nuance and with brilliant

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references and citations as well and he comes at this with the viewpoint that our financial system

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functions as a silent mechanism of enslavement and he draws on centuries of history philosophy

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moral reasoning

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ethical decision making

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how

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how everything that

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fiat money is touching

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is corroding

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dignity

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and

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the civilization

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the social fabric

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absolutely everything

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and he's done a brilliant job

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he's done an incredible job

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and I honestly think this is going to be one of those books

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that you can just hand to your mum, your dad, your auntie, your uncle, your cousin,

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your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your normie friends.

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And just say, look, dig into this.

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It's a really, really interesting read,

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especially if you know someone who loves history or loves philosophy

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or just loves a good read because this is a great read.

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It takes you through the stages and the epiphanies that drop in each chapter.

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It does a brilliant job.

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and obviously weaves Bitcoin into it and offers that as the solution to the problems.

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But it's very low touch with the Bitcoin stuff.

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So it is one of these books that honestly is going to make a difference to the people in your life

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that have yet to take a look into the Bitcoin rabbit hole.

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Before we get into the interview, please make sure you're stacking your sats.

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and the show support is coming at you from Relay Across Europe, R-E-L-A-I.ch forward slash Bitson.

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You can download that app and be stacking sats today and be safe in the knowledge that these guys,

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Relay have been around for a long time.

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They've got your best interest at heart.

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They're a Bitcoin-only company.

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They want you to stack.

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They want you to take self-custody.

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They even have a partnership with Bitbox.

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Bitbox are also a Swiss-based team.

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Bitbox O2 or the Bitbox Nova are Bitcoin-only hardware wallets.

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Please take this very seriously.

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Just this week, a friend has lost his Bitcoin because he was hacked via a link

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and he had some words, so a seed phrase, on the computer.

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So the people that hack in, they can find that stuff.

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They can find it if it's on your phone.

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Don't take a picture of your seed words. Don't even write them down then take a picture of them.

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Don't even put them in a file that you think is encrypted. Don't even ever type them in to a

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computer. And even if the Wi-Fi is off and you think you're just putting into a Word document,

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so then you can print it out. And then like, I've heard it all now. Stop doing this, please.

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People, get yourself a hardware wallet. Just write down the words. Keep them separately. Keep them

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safe stamp them into seal steel excuse me do all of that stuff and you'll be fine you'll be able to

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sleep at night so bitbox are there for you they've been in the game for a long time and you get a five

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percent discount using the code bitten so hit the link in the show notes get over to pay with flash

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dot com if you want to learn how you can start accepting bitcoin for your goods and services

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We have to take Bitcoin into the next level of being a medium of exchange.

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If not you, then who?

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We have to get the sats flowing.

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And once the sats are in other people's hands, just tiny amount, they start to understand the power of Bitcoin.

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So paywithflash.com.

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Easy.

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Get over to the website.

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Go check it out.

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See what they can offer you.

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Now, Orange Pill app.

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18,000 Bitcoiners around the world.

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Yes, I know that is very few, but that is the coolest thing.

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We are few.

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We're not the 3 billion a month users on Facebook, like that hell pit of noise.

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Orange pill app, you have to pay for it.

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Yes, and you can pay for it each month or you can pay for it lifetime membership or yearly,

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whatever you want to do via the Lightning Network.

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You can start zapping people on there.

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You can geo zap.

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You can chat privately with people.

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you can even find out where your nearest local events are going to be there's a bunch of new

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features coming soon so go and check it out orange pill app and reach out to your nearest bitcoiners

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go out and meet people finally please listen on fountain app if you're not listening on fountain

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app press pause right now download it and create your account and start supporting the bitcoin

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parallel economy there's a few conferences coming up i know i've run out of music here but bear with

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me you have in october the bitcoin balkans is coming at you in sofia from bulgaria the guys are

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putting this one on again this year they're offering you a 10 discount using the code bitten

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after that you have in manchester bit fest and nostashire or nostashire however you want to

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pronounce that uh again use the code bitten link in the show notes come and visit us in manchester

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and japan btc japan is going down in tokyo 23rd to the 24th of november they have offered you guys

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10 discount if anybody wants to go just use the link in the show notes i really appreciate all of

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the conference organizers offering these discounts to you guys so go ahead make use of it and meanwhile

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sit back relax and enjoy this show with neil flesher all right neil we are recording great

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to have you on the show. Incredible book. Well done. Congratulations. This is the book for those

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watching. Modern Chains, the Invisible Shackles of Economic Slavery. It's an incredible read. I

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can't wait to pass it to my wife and to my oldest daughter. I think it's going to be great for her

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because she's studying kind of international relations and economics at a university, but at

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the same time falling down the Bitcoin rabbit hole. And it's all beginning to click and it's

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just wonderful to see but enough blabble from me because lauren now has to take over the show and

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ask you the first question say i'm back i haven't been on in a while yeah well you're busy now

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you know yeah yeah all right so in um in your opinion what is the biggest modern chain

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the biggest modern chain i mean it's just debasement i would say uh just the fact that

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they debased the money, that's the driving engine of this economic slavery, followed up by usury.

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That's a second engine. But I think just the debasement of the money, that's the single biggest

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driving factor that creates this dynamic of extracting the value that people create in the

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world coercively from them i don't know i got a question for lauren do you understand what he

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means by debasement of the money debasement is basically i think i know what it go on yeah just

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take a step if i can explain it properly okay debasing means like um

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i don't know how to explain it i don't know what the word is

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so maybe uh it's kind of like a dilution it's taking uh you know one glass of milk

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and pouring it into five and then saying that you 5x the milk

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that's uh that's kind of what we're doing so it's like for example you have like apple juice but you

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pour water into the apple juice so it's just a mix of water yeah yep yeah the the concentration

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of the actual juice is diluted.

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It's worth less.

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Like the money is not getting worth more.

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The value of each dollar or pound or whatever

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is getting less and less.

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So we're making this distinction

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between this monetary object

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and the real value created in the world.

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And money is this object that we put and we store

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and we save the value that we create

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in the world into these monetary objects. And when they print money, when they're debasing

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the currency, what they're doing is they're creating these empty monetary objects. They're

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just putting more glasses out on the table. And then since they're not actually creating more

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value in the world, and we treat each dollar the same, we say it's fungible. So this new printed

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dollar that has nothing in it is treated the exact same as the dollars that you saved, you worked

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hard for, created value in the world, and then you put that value into that dollar. Well, that value

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that you put, that you created gets extracted from that dollar and goes into the empty dollar.

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It's like the value equalizes between all the monetary objects. So when they increase the money

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supply from nothing, but when there's a zero cost to, to increasing the number of monetary objects,

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that's just pulling out all the value that's created in the world. And that's like the, the,

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the mechanism of the extraction. That's the mechanism that takes, you know, your life,

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your work, your, you know, like we, people like abstract away value. It's like, it's like,

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no value is a real thing in the world. Like when you go and you, uh, you do work, you achieve ends,

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you create, you know, you, you create something real with your life. And, uh, money is this, uh,

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this interesting, you know, uh, emergent phenomenon that it's the, it's the way that

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human beings uh connect with each other it's how at a societal level um so it's just like i don't

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know it's a yeah but that's debasement it's that diluting it's the water and the apple juice it's

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the it's just pouring the same amount of milk between empty glasses um i mean unless you're

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unless you're creating something in the world um you know you're i don't know i'll just land it

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Yeah. So like every time they print money, basically they debase.

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Yeah So that they not adding any value They haven built any tools or offering any goods or offering any services They just flooding money into the system which debases the purchasing power of the pounds that you worked

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for. And even with gold, you still have to go dig it up. You still are expending energy. You're

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expending work. There's costs associated with that. So even though the gold supply increases,

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that's an inflation but it's not really a debasement because like they're still creating

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like having to do work like it's it's grounded in natural law there's nothing wrong there's

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nothing morally wrong with saying people want gold people need more monetary objects to store

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all the value that they're creating i'm gonna go dig that up and and bring it to the marketplace

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like that's you know uh that's an inflation but it's still grounded in natural law it's still

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morally right and just um you know it's there's nothing wrong with that but when you just snap

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your fingers and create it from nothing like that's the that's when we've lost we've left the

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reservation you know like that is a it's a proposition that we can create something from

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nothing you know and and that's just logically that doesn't make sense it's kind of like it just

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it breaks everything um yeah right cool any further questions

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not that i've okay well here's your homework have this finished by the end of the podcast

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and then i'll come out and talk to you about it over dinner yeah but okay well thank you yeah

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thank you thank you so much for answering my question oh no worries bye bye all right

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Neil, let's wind back the clock a little bit because interesting, really interesting past.

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Obviously, philosophy, you studied very deeply from what I can ascertain from reading your work.

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Military as well.

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You served in the military.

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You've got the Apache over your right shoulder there.

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Preston, another Apache pilot, Bitcoiner, and Bitcoin as well.

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so that's a real mix you know that the deep thought being part of the military industrial

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complex and then finding bitcoin and realizing you know this is a tool to end war what where did

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this all start for you what what came first was it the philosophy then military or military then

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philosophy what what was kind of the the pathway yes i mean so i mean even even as a little kid

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i've always loved the idea of philosophy and i was always interested with the critical thinking and

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and trying to understand things you know i want to understand the world that uh i inhabit you know

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i want to understand how to how to navigate through my life and uh you know so that's always

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been kind of i've been drawn towards that um but i mean growing up i i mean we didn't really come

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for money or anything. I mean, we had what we needed day to day and I'm grateful for that. But

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I mean, money was just never something that we had to even think about. So

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as I come into adolescence and being an adult, it's like, okay, well, what am I going to do?

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And I knew I needed to probably go to college, right? Because you have to go to college if you

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want to have a good life, right? And it's like, well, how am I going to pay for that? So it's

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like, that's my solution. Like, that's why I enlisted. I enlisted in the, in the army. Cause

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I was like, I'll go do my time. They'll give me the GI bill and that'll pay for my school. And then

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I can get on the right path. Um, but I mean, I was a good little, uh, little infantry dude and

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was doing what I, they would tell me and worked real hard. And, uh, you know, I got kind of

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college fell into my lap when, uh, I got the opportunity to go to West Point. Um, and that's

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kind of where I was like, oh, well, now I'm at college and I'll just study philosophy because

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like that's the thing that I want to learn how to do. So I started studying philosophy there,

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you know, went to flight school, learned how to fly, which is super cool and awesome.

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But kind of when I got out of the military, you know, I went back and used the GI Bill to go get

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my master's, you know, in philosophy, you know, really concentrating on ethics because that really

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tied in with leadership. And I just thought like, hey, I don't know what exactly I'm going to do

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with this. But I just felt like that was the thing to, that was the direction to run. I didn't know

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exactly where I was, what the goal was at the end, but I knew like that was where I needed to go.

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But getting, stepping out of the military where, you know, I still didn't have to think about money

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because they just take care of everything for me. I started to notice that, okay,

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my do you know now I have a wife a family and kids you know I have more responsibilities I have

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greater duties as a leader of my family and my understanding of money just I was like it felt

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you know like a fifth grader understanding of that and like I knew I needed to learn about money

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to protect them and to help give my kids you know give them what I didn't have you know

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it's kind of like the time preference you know when you're just day-to-day subsistence living

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you don't really care what happens five ten years you know down the road but you know having that

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family starts it forces you to start looking ahead and uh thinking a little more diligently

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about where you're going um so that's how i got to the whole money thing you know like i basically

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a domain I ignored for all of my life, you know, and then having now studied philosophy at undergrad

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and grad school, taking kind of those skills and applying it to the to that task. And I don't know,

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it's a it's really it just blew my mind. So like I didn't get to Bitcoin until I basically just

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was doing my analysis of our monetary system and like you know being a moral philosopher

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and and examining our monetary system and realizing like holy like this is this is really bad like

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the entire system is is rests on on an immoral you know illogical and valid structure and it uh

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And you get to that idea where, you know, once I put the two to two together, like, okay, formal slavery is literally our monetary system.

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It was like, I have to do something about it.

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What do you do?

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And it's at that moment, having, you know, clearly defined the problem that that was the first time I really saw Bitcoin.

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And what I thought was so profound for me was that once I saw Bitcoin, I recognized what it was. I recognized it for the solution that it was because I understood the problem.

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I did not calculate my way to Bitcoin. I didn't come at it from the economic side. I didn't come

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at Bitcoin from like, well, how do I, you know, oh my gosh, this CAGR this and these rates that

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and the rates of return. Like I didn't do any of that. I came at it from the moral side and I got

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it like that. So this book is my contribution to try to share that. Like that is an asymmetry.

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You know, people get scared. Like you talk to people and we talk about orange pilling people and getting them to Bitcoin.

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And it's hard. You know, most often when you bring up Bitcoin to someone that doesn't know what it is, they have like a prey response.

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They stop. They don't move. They get real scared because it's like in this in this like a extractive system.

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It makes sense. You would expect that someone's preying on you.

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you're expecting oh they're telling me to buy something they're probably going to rip me off

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they're probably setting me up so i'm just not going to do anything and like like that's how

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the deer in the headlight like so how do you break through that you know and it's like well

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i didn't have that response because i recognized it morally for what it was so that's kind of uh

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that's kind of the whole uh how i came to this is just like uh all right i got bitcoin i got it

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quick because I recognized it for what it is. I recognize the problem. And I just, in a sense,

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I think when we're talking about, you know, because how do we, how do we, sorry, it's kind of,

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you like, you start your Bitcoin journey, you know, and you're like, okay, well, I got to get

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some Bitcoin. I got a stack and I'll do that. And that will save me. But like, when you start

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looking for it out and I'm like, okay, well, do I just want to hand my kids some sats when I die?

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Or do I want to actually remove the problem? You know, this is a mess. Am I going to pass

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along some sats and a mess to them? Or am I going to clean the mess up and then pass them the sats?

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Like, that's how I started to think about this. And the only way that we clean this mess up when

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we end central banking, we end fiat, you know, we have to bring people on board, we have to advocate

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and show people what Bitcoin does.

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It's a tool and it is a powerful tool.

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And how do you wield it?

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And so I started thinking about this

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from the military side.

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It's like, okay, well, let's strategize.

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I have a tool.

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I have a weapon.

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I have an enemy.

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I have a lay of the land.

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What's the battlefield?

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How am I going to...

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What's the tactics?

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What's the strategy?

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and just like spitting macro at people just seems so stupid.

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Like, because you're just going to elicit that same prey response.

253
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And it's like, I don't want to elicit that.

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I don't want to ask somebody to spend a thousand hours

255
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to learn something they know nothing about

256
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to get to the point where they're like,

257
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maybe I should have a little Bitcoin, you know,

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because you're already there.

259
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You don't have to go like the thousand hour journey is a circle.

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You are already in it.

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You already know the problem.

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you're already feeling the abuses. So like, why don't you just start there, recognize that,

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get the moral case, and then you can learn and go, you know, complete your journey after you've

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already kind of got it. That was kind of my assessment of it. So it's like, okay, well,

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that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to run to the front lines because this is an important thing.

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I want to clean this up, but I'm not going to run to the front lines empty-handed. I need

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something to bring. I need something to do. So it's like this book is my attempt to help

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arm people with the moral language to talk about and understand the reality that is before us.

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So I don't know. Sorry. I'm just kind of. No, that's perfect. It's that's the way it's

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written, too. It's almost like following you down your rabbit hole journey, you know, chapter by

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chapter, epiphany by epiphany, question by question. And I like the way that you interweave the

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philosophical quotes from different philosophers over the years really rounds it out very very nicely and puts the onus on the reader to think morally and think ethically and in fact when you sent me the book right here in the very beginning you uh

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you've handwritten uh ethics before economics and signed it for me and i think that's so profound

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it's it's something missing uh right now it's in in our in our space right now we're we're having

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a lot of economics before ethics going on with all of these Bitcoin treasury companies being

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spun up every other day or Bitcoin loan products being spun up. We'll get into usury a little bit

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later on. So were you deployed when you were serving? Yeah. So I did two deployments in Iraq.

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I was in Baghdad both times.

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Damn.

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So you've seen like the sharp end of...

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Once on the ground as a little enlisted dude and once in the air flying.

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So different perspectives.

283
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Yeah, truly different perspectives.

284
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But at war, nonetheless, you know, seeing humanity at its worst and a direct descendant of the fiat monetary system.

285
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because what have these wars been for?

286
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You know, the British Empire was built on, you know,

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plundering foreign nations for their own wealth

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and using fiat currency to do that.

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Large parts of Europe, the Dutch, the Portuguese,

290
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I think it was the Portuguese that sent across the marbles, right,

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to Africa so they could flood the,

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this is what Breedlove wrote about in his article, Masters of Slaves and Money.

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They could flood the local economy because they had the technology,

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the glassblowing technology,

295
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and they realized they were using these little marvels as currency,

296
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and they could use that to buy people

297
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and then start the transatlantic slave trade.

298
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And it's all directly linked to being able to print money, basically.

299
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All of these wars.

300
00:25:38,717 --> 00:25:47,617
yeah i think the the question that you say why do we have the wars and my you know the answer

301
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that i have today is like it's one thing to print the money but you have to inject it into the

302
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economy you have to get people using it and exchanging it like i you can print you can print

303
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all the money you want but if you don't put it into the economy it's never going to get out like

304
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So that's kind of like all the, what is it, $8 trillion I think we spent, you know, basically on these forever wars, just America.

305
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It's like, well, how do you inject that into the economy?

306
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It's like you give it to contractors, you give it to actual companies, and then they pay their employees.

307
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So that's the way that they're able to move some money, you know, and put it in there.

308
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And also goes all the entitlements and benefits and all that stuff.

309
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But they need an actual syringe.

310
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They need something, a mechanism to actually put it into the economy.

311
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And I think you can buy the justifications.

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Oh, we need to do this, or we need to do that, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

313
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But it's like, for 20 years, it's like, no.

314
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I don't buy it.

315
00:26:53,817 --> 00:26:55,277
I just don't buy it.

316
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That's the real reason.

317
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I think it's the money.

318
00:26:59,177 --> 00:27:08,097
so you you liken uh our the world in which we live today you you liken it to like the plantation

319
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perfect analogy and how we are and that's why it's called modern chains uh because we are

320
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chained by these invisible chains nobody can really figure out what what is what is shackling

321
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them uh and um you you give some some good examples of kind of like the hierarchy of the

322
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plantation and what keeps people completely chained there you know like the the slightly

323
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softer bed for the the leader of do you want to get into that and try and help people understand

324
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why they're not thinking deeper about the questions that we're going to get into yeah so

325
00:27:44,237 --> 00:27:51,957
the what's really important is that when i say slavery i do not mean it metaphorically i don't

326
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mean it as an analogy. I'm not equivocating anything. Like this is a formal definition

327
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of like a, like the, the essence of slavery, you know? So, um, as a philosopher, you know,

328
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this is going back to Aristotle. Like that's the interesting thing, why I tied it into like

329
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Aristotle and Aquinas and all these other things. It's like, this isn't me. I'm not coming up with

330
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a theory, right? I'm recognizing the reality of human existence today. And these truths are,

331
00:28:25,157 --> 00:28:32,397
they're a part, they're an emergent property of our humanity. So Aristotle was a human being

332
00:28:32,397 --> 00:28:38,757
and recognized these same truths, you know, that we recognize today. So it's like by tying it,

333
00:28:38,837 --> 00:28:43,577
by tying in Aristotle, I'm not trying to say, oh, look, it's not an appeal to an authority.

334
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So because he said it, it's true. It's just saying, look, you recognize this in your own life. I recognize it in my life. Aristotle recognized it in his life. You know, this is something true about, you know, the human condition.

335
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And like, that's kind of what, so when we talk about a definition or the essence of something, you know, we're stripping away all the accidents. We're saying, what is this thing necessarily? What is the singular thread that remains constant throughout all time, throughout all place and circumstance?

336
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And when we're talking about slavery and you strip all those accidents, wait, it's the extraction of someone's productive work, their productive energy from one to another for the other's benefit.

337
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You know, like, so once you do that, like, that's formal slavery, right? It's really easy to see that in historical slavery with chattel slavery. Like, okay, I literally physically dominate you and make you work to my ends, and I take all the fruit. Like, that's very clear cut and dry.

338
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but like the the physical domination part is an accident so as a philosopher I take that and I

339
00:29:59,877 --> 00:30:04,257
throw it off the table I don't care about the physical manifestation I don't care about the

340
00:30:04,257 --> 00:30:10,417
accident of you know I care about the function what is what is happening and it's like that's

341
00:30:10,417 --> 00:30:17,437
that's the click was like today with the basement that extraction from the value you created and you

342
00:30:17,437 --> 00:30:23,157
put into your dollar, when they extract that out and put it into these empty dollars and take it

343
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for their benefit, for their ends, it's like, okay, that's why it's literally slavery. It's

344
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formal slavery. You can't call it anything else. I reject when we say, I understand the trap.

345
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They're like, oh, it's like stealing. They're like stealing your money. It's like, they're not

346
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actually stealing your money. You know, the, when we're kind of looking at and identifying

347
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like moral crimes, it's like, we're looking at the object being taken. And it's like,

348
00:30:52,497 --> 00:30:58,037
if you check your wallet, it has the exact amount of dollars in it, you know, before and after they

349
00:30:58,037 --> 00:31:03,517
print money, like they're not removing any physical property from you. So they're not like

350
00:31:03,517 --> 00:31:09,737
theft is, is the removal of property. It's like, you know, murder is the removal of your life.

351
00:31:09,737 --> 00:31:12,017
You know, it's like, what are the, what's the object being taken?

352
00:31:12,157 --> 00:31:14,877
And it's like, with slavery, it's that productive work.

353
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It's that productive energy.

354
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It's the value of your life.

355
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And that's what's being taken.

356
00:31:20,337 --> 00:31:24,877
And it's like, if my neighbor had slaves, I would be repulsed.

357
00:31:24,977 --> 00:31:30,437
I would instantly recognize that as evil and would, you know, call attention to it, get

358
00:31:30,437 --> 00:31:32,877
other people to like, I would do something about it.

359
00:31:33,037 --> 00:31:37,757
Like it wouldn't be something I just shrug my shoulders at, but that's exactly what we

360
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do with the monetary system.

361
00:31:39,737 --> 00:31:46,097
even though the exact same thing is happening, you know, uh, the, the same function is occurring.

362
00:31:46,577 --> 00:31:53,197
And, uh, it's just kind of like, you know, if it's that obvious, once you see it that way,

363
00:31:53,197 --> 00:31:59,357
you know, it, it really is like, everybody can recognize that it's just, you have to name the

364
00:31:59,357 --> 00:32:04,117
category. You have to just draw, connect the right dots to actually see it, you know? Uh,

365
00:32:04,117 --> 00:32:10,757
sorry i'm just gonna no you're very good i mean and i was looking at the uh the sentence you got

366
00:32:10,757 --> 00:32:17,437
in here this is why coerced extraction of productive energy stands at the formal essence

367
00:32:17,437 --> 00:32:25,957
of slavery so like coerced extraction uh because it is yeah yeah there's there's like when you talk

368
00:32:25,957 --> 00:32:32,737
about you no one's consenting so you know coercion isn't just have to be me like pummeling you you

369
00:32:32,737 --> 00:32:34,077
You know, it's force.

370
00:32:34,317 --> 00:32:36,197
It's non-consensual.

371
00:32:36,317 --> 00:32:39,297
They're not persuading us, you know, to print.

372
00:32:39,417 --> 00:32:40,277
They're just doing it.

373
00:32:40,617 --> 00:32:42,877
And we have to take it.

374
00:32:43,477 --> 00:32:48,497
Like, that's the, you know, because again, it's really easy to get tripped up on the

375
00:32:48,497 --> 00:32:49,537
accidents, you know?

376
00:32:49,617 --> 00:32:52,477
You're like, oh, well, they don't actually have a gun to my head.

377
00:32:52,537 --> 00:32:53,937
It's like, well, they kind of do.

378
00:32:53,937 --> 00:32:57,777
But even if you want to push that aside, like, you are not consenting to that.

379
00:32:58,097 --> 00:32:59,477
Like, you just have to take it.

380
00:32:59,677 --> 00:33:01,657
And there's nothing you can do about it.

381
00:33:01,657 --> 00:33:03,137
Like, I don't know.

382
00:33:03,517 --> 00:33:05,617
But now we can do something about it, you know,

383
00:33:05,697 --> 00:33:09,557
which is why Bitcoin is so important and, you know,

384
00:33:09,557 --> 00:33:11,377
not something to just brush off.

385
00:33:12,177 --> 00:33:14,537
But the trap we find ourselves in is, you know,

386
00:33:15,297 --> 00:33:19,557
you might have a slightly nicer house than your neighbor

387
00:33:19,557 --> 00:33:22,237
or a slightly better looking car than your neighbor.

388
00:33:22,877 --> 00:33:25,697
So therefore, you don't want to look at, like,

389
00:33:26,177 --> 00:33:29,257
the state of the monetary system and realize.

390
00:33:30,937 --> 00:33:31,597
Go ahead.

391
00:33:31,657 --> 00:33:36,597
I was going to say, what you said, like, how does this kind of go on?

392
00:33:36,757 --> 00:33:46,297
And since it is slavery, I started like, okay, well, I found Frederick Douglass so, I don't know, profound and impactful to me because he was a...

393
00:33:46,297 --> 00:33:48,117
Can you just let us know who he was?

394
00:33:48,477 --> 00:33:51,457
And then we'll get into him because it's an interesting part of the book.

395
00:33:52,197 --> 00:33:52,377
Yeah.

396
00:33:52,457 --> 00:33:56,577
So Frederick Douglass was an American slave and he was literate and could write.

397
00:33:56,577 --> 00:34:01,577
So he actually wrote about his life as a literal slave.

398
00:34:01,657 --> 00:34:09,917
and he what what i i like so much about him because he's describing the the conditions of

399
00:34:09,917 --> 00:34:16,677
slavery and he's describing like how life on the plantation and the day the human dynamics of you

400
00:34:16,677 --> 00:34:23,297
know master and between master and slaves and the and the different slaves themselves and he uh he

401
00:34:23,297 --> 00:34:28,977
talks about this kind of like psychological divergence between like the field slave and the

402
00:34:28,977 --> 00:34:35,357
house slave. And, you know, I can't remember the exact line, but he basically is like, you know,

403
00:34:35,717 --> 00:34:43,697
the slave that knows the lash knows the truth about their condition more so than the house

404
00:34:43,697 --> 00:34:49,297
slave who has the comfy bed, who has, you know, sits closest to the master at the table and gets

405
00:34:49,297 --> 00:34:55,956
his scraps and all this stuff. Like there's this kind of this divergence between these two types

406
00:34:55,956 --> 00:35:03,956
of slaves. And he talks about how it's the house slave that were like the worst. They were the

407
00:35:05,617 --> 00:35:17,575
enforcers They were the first to quell any uprising They were the ones that wanted to keep it going because they they kind of saw like i have it better than them

408
00:35:17,575 --> 00:35:25,255
and i don't i'll take this like known status quo versus you know potentially risking that and having

409
00:35:25,255 --> 00:35:31,775
to go out and you know endure the endure the lash and it's like we see that exact same thing playing

410
00:35:31,775 --> 00:35:38,875
out like are that like the proximity from the master is kind of like kind of what you can think

411
00:35:38,875 --> 00:35:43,995
of that house slave field slave dynamic and it's like we have the same thing to the money printer

412
00:35:43,995 --> 00:35:51,735
you know dollars are not fungible you know the the dollar as it as soon as it leaves the printing

413
00:35:51,735 --> 00:35:57,875
press it is not the same as once it reaches its way all the way out into the economy and you know

414
00:35:57,875 --> 00:36:05,595
you get it in your hand like so the people that are closest to the printer they get the comfort

415
00:36:05,595 --> 00:36:12,035
of the house slate they they get you know they get access to cheap interest they get access

416
00:36:12,035 --> 00:36:17,395
you know if i want to just swipe my credit card that's like 25 interest okay but if you're a

417
00:36:17,395 --> 00:36:21,515
business you got you know access to capital markets or you're a bank or anything like that

418
00:36:21,515 --> 00:36:27,195
you get access to basically free money you know you could even get it at zero or one percent it's

419
00:36:27,195 --> 00:36:35,715
just like that's the that's the dynamic there so you know people people will mistake that comfort

420
00:36:35,715 --> 00:36:43,035
as not coercive as not enslavement as not you know i'm not being abused but it's like we're all

421
00:36:43,035 --> 00:36:49,755
we're all in the same category of being extracted from so even if you've got your nice little 401k

422
00:36:49,755 --> 00:36:54,315
and you own some appreciating assets and you feel protected from it like you are still getting

423
00:36:54,315 --> 00:37:03,375
debased too um and that's just uh i don't know for me as a leader as someone who stands up and

424
00:37:03,375 --> 00:37:09,475
like i can't just like be like well i'm it's not hurting me as much as it is you

425
00:37:09,475 --> 00:37:17,455
so i'm just gonna go along with this immoral uh moral practice because i'm benefiting from it it's

426
00:37:17,455 --> 00:37:24,155
like that's it's not gonna fly so like the canteen effect at work at the plantation you know you you

427
00:37:24,155 --> 00:37:32,175
get the uh you get the slightly warm food scraps and uh the people in the field get none of that

428
00:37:32,175 --> 00:37:37,515
uh they're defending for themselves you get the uh the warm bed the people in the field they get

429
00:37:37,515 --> 00:37:43,595
none of that you get the um you don't get the lash uh because you're you know closest to the master

430
00:37:43,595 --> 00:37:51,295
the you know those closest to the spigot right and um yeah it's just a perfect analogy and then

431
00:37:51,295 --> 00:37:59,255
so tie into all of that you you've got that at play this is the system everybody is trapped within

432
00:37:59,255 --> 00:38:04,695
this fiat monetary system and um you know using that analogy of just being chattel

433
00:38:04,695 --> 00:38:11,075
because you you're coer you're having your energy coercively taken away from you your productive

434
00:38:11,075 --> 00:38:21,155
energy and then you tie in usury and i'm i'm so glad you you you wrote about usury in your book

435
00:38:21,155 --> 00:38:23,855
I've given a talk about you, Sari, at a couple of conferences.

436
00:38:24,715 --> 00:38:28,695
It came across my radar when I read this book, Red Symphony.

437
00:38:29,835 --> 00:38:33,535
And what you had to say was very interesting.

438
00:38:33,715 --> 00:38:37,775
But I'll just read you a little bit from this book.

439
00:38:38,215 --> 00:38:39,615
Have you ever heard of it, Red Symphony?

440
00:38:40,175 --> 00:38:40,815
I have not.

441
00:38:41,355 --> 00:38:41,675
Okay.

442
00:38:41,855 --> 00:38:45,175
So it's not a book in the strictest sense.

443
00:38:45,175 --> 00:39:14,275
It is actually a transcript of a conversation that took place in 1938 between Gavril Kuzmin, who was the chief NKVD officer for Stalin at the time, who was leading all of the torture trials to get as much, extract as much information as they possibly could out of the Trotskyites before they just hung them the next day.

444
00:39:14,275 --> 00:39:23,495
And he was interviewing a guy named Rakowski, and he was the Russian ambassador to France.

445
00:39:24,135 --> 00:39:28,915
So they sit down and it wasn't a torture session.

446
00:39:28,915 --> 00:39:34,455
And it was more of just a little bit of red wine by the fire and a highly intelligent conversation.

447
00:39:35,415 --> 00:39:42,875
And there was another person in the room, the doctor who was there to just make sure he had enough

448
00:39:42,875 --> 00:39:45,455
to keep his lips loose.

449
00:39:46,355 --> 00:39:52,735
And he was tasked with then translating it into Russian

450
00:39:52,735 --> 00:39:56,115
because the conversation was held in French.

451
00:39:56,855 --> 00:39:59,135
He hid all of these documents,

452
00:39:59,535 --> 00:40:02,275
and then they were found on his dead body in a gulag

453
00:40:02,275 --> 00:40:05,895
when he was finally disposed of by Spanish soldiers that found him,

454
00:40:06,235 --> 00:40:07,875
took it back to a university professor

455
00:40:07,875 --> 00:40:15,215
who then started having these all translated into as many different languages as possible.

456
00:40:15,535 --> 00:40:18,915
And I really push people to pick up a copy of it.

457
00:40:19,515 --> 00:40:22,875
Now, I wanted to read a little bit about Usuri.

458
00:40:23,255 --> 00:40:23,815
Here we go.

459
00:40:25,075 --> 00:40:25,635
Right.

460
00:40:25,635 --> 00:40:29,415
So, something I did and give it a speed of sound.

461
00:40:29,415 --> 00:40:46,195
So he's talking about the Russian ambassador is talking about he's giving him the information of how money is controlled by a financial elite, the they, as we might call them.

462
00:40:46,195 --> 00:41:00,135
And he's laying that out and he's explaining to how it's, you know, you have to understand that their basic, what these people believe is that their basic axiom is money is power.

463
00:41:01,435 --> 00:41:02,875
That's where they're coming from.

464
00:41:03,715 --> 00:41:11,935
So when you put your mindset there, you understand all of the means that they've put in place and, you know, to get to where we've got to today.

465
00:41:12,175 --> 00:41:15,875
So he's, he's, he asks him, what do you think of money?

466
00:41:16,195 --> 00:41:21,155
picture money. And he says something along the lines of, I see you, a smile comes across your

467
00:41:21,155 --> 00:41:30,355
face, you see coins, you see notes, and what you would think of as money. So he says, you're

468
00:41:30,355 --> 00:41:36,035
thinking of fraud, you're thinking of forced monies, given a legal standing, using other

469
00:41:36,035 --> 00:41:41,815
terminology so that you should understand me, banks, the stock exchanges, and the whole world

470
00:41:41,815 --> 00:41:48,775
financial system is a gigantic machine for the purpose of bringing about unnatural scandals.

471
00:41:49,395 --> 00:41:55,855
According to Aristotle's expression, to force money to produce money. That is something that

472
00:41:55,855 --> 00:42:01,555
if it is a crime in economics, then in relations to finances, it is a crime against the criminal

473
00:42:01,555 --> 00:42:13,495
code since it is usury to produce something from nothing usury so in in my talk i i quote aristotle

474
00:42:13,495 --> 00:42:22,195
and um you know lots of religious uh texts as well from different religions talking about usury

475
00:42:22,195 --> 00:42:29,295
but i'll i'll hand over the ball to you now and so if you want to pick up on on usury we can start

476
00:42:29,295 --> 00:42:35,535
explaining to people what it is and what it isn't and the nuances in between it because I think it's

477
00:42:35,535 --> 00:42:43,915
a pretty big misunderstood topic. Yeah, no, it really is. And when I was doing the research part

478
00:42:43,915 --> 00:42:51,415
on the usury, because it's like, it's not completely separate from debasement, but in the

479
00:42:51,415 --> 00:42:59,275
monetary system with how the fiat is created and lent into existence, that's really like the big

480
00:42:59,275 --> 00:43:05,175
overlap between debasement and usury, even though they're separate things, they're highly

481
00:43:05,175 --> 00:43:14,535
overlapping. But that's something from nothing. That's really the teasing that out and understanding

482
00:43:14,535 --> 00:43:22,475
that it's human beings creating value in the world that's important, never losing sight of

483
00:43:22,475 --> 00:43:28,155
that principle. If you can hold on to that principle, it will help you analyze any situation.

484
00:43:28,155 --> 00:43:35,215
you're like what's being created and what's not and uh i said it since it is such a slippery thing

485
00:43:35,215 --> 00:43:40,275
because we conflate it all oftentimes you hear people well it's an exorbitant interest rate or

486
00:43:40,275 --> 00:43:47,755
oh it's this or that like you know like it it's uh it's it's it's all lending you know or it's

487
00:43:47,755 --> 00:43:52,855
it's just like any lending at interest or this or that like uh there's it's almost like i would

488
00:43:52,855 --> 00:44:02,075
It's like a purposefully obfuscated term because no one wants to nail it down.

489
00:44:02,075 --> 00:44:10,795
So kind of in prep for talking about usury, I didn't really trust myself to pin it down exactly just live.

490
00:44:10,855 --> 00:44:21,895
So I kind of prepared just some remarks here to put out the principles and how they connect in plain language so people can understand what it is.

491
00:44:21,895 --> 00:44:23,975
So I'll just go ahead and read that here right now.

492
00:44:23,975 --> 00:44:30,415
So basically, in one sentence, a claim to profit without contribution is usury.

493
00:44:30,995 --> 00:44:36,155
And when we unpack that, we say, okay, so profit, rightly understood, it's not immoral.

494
00:44:36,675 --> 00:44:39,475
It is the natural fruit of value creation.

495
00:44:39,995 --> 00:44:41,075
It's an abundant harvest.

496
00:44:41,615 --> 00:44:46,435
So when you work, when you bear risk, when you expend effort, you're contributing something

497
00:44:46,435 --> 00:44:48,215
real to an endeavor.

498
00:44:48,215 --> 00:44:52,115
And when that endeavor bears fruit, you deserve a return.

499
00:44:52,355 --> 00:44:55,695
So like, that's what aligns it with natural law.

500
00:44:55,875 --> 00:45:00,655
You know, a subject creating value through their work to move an object to achieve an

501
00:45:00,655 --> 00:45:00,915
end.

502
00:45:01,035 --> 00:45:07,715
Like those who contribute value have a justified claim to their share in the excess value produced.

503
00:45:07,875 --> 00:45:10,055
And that's, that's what profit is.

504
00:45:10,275 --> 00:45:13,215
So lending perfectly fits into this framework.

505
00:45:13,215 --> 00:45:21,295
A lender contributes value, not through the holding of the capital, but the bearing of the risk.

506
00:45:21,855 --> 00:45:26,855
So if I lend you money, if the venture fails, we both lose.

507
00:45:27,095 --> 00:45:32,435
Like that's what I'm risking that capital that makes sure on your success or failure.

508
00:45:32,835 --> 00:45:39,555
So that's real risk and it carries weight and it requires work to actually bear that.

509
00:45:39,555 --> 00:45:45,095
And that's why lending can be justly compensated with profit.

510
00:45:45,375 --> 00:45:48,175
Like that's lending in harmony with natural law.

511
00:45:48,555 --> 00:45:52,215
And another layer to that, sorry to interrupt, but another layer to that.

512
00:45:52,315 --> 00:45:57,315
So let's say in this example, you are lending some money to a business and that business

513
00:45:57,315 --> 00:46:02,555
is going to take that money and try and expand and is going to give you interest back and

514
00:46:02,555 --> 00:46:03,215
what you've loaned them.

515
00:46:03,415 --> 00:46:08,275
The money that you've put at risk is money you've already expended energy to get in the

516
00:46:08,275 --> 00:46:08,835
first place.

517
00:46:08,835 --> 00:46:15,275
right it's real yes yep you worked you created value and then you put that month you put that

518
00:46:15,275 --> 00:46:23,395
value into a monetary object people need to really grab onto that like yes that money didn't just come

519
00:46:23,395 --> 00:46:31,175
from thin air correct if i just print if i just print up these empty dollars and lend that to you

520
00:46:31,175 --> 00:46:39,975
there's no value in there. I'm not risking anything like that. Yeah, that is the key,

521
00:46:39,975 --> 00:46:49,675
you know, pound the table like concept to understand. So I'll continue here. So, you know,

522
00:46:49,675 --> 00:46:52,455
so with usury, this is different. Usury,

523
00:46:52,473 --> 00:46:57,853
eliminates the risk, but it still keeps that claim to profit. It creates a legal arrangement

524
00:46:57,853 --> 00:47:03,393
where repayment is guaranteed regardless of the outcome of the venture. So you can think of student

525
00:47:03,393 --> 00:47:08,993
loans that cannot be discharged. You can think of banks getting bailed out by a government decree.

526
00:47:08,993 --> 00:47:14,213
You can think of central banks conjuring money out of nothing and lending it at interest.

527
00:47:14,213 --> 00:47:20,533
Like in all these cases, there's no real work being done to bear real risk.

528
00:47:20,993 --> 00:47:24,213
Like so no value was created in this exchange.

529
00:47:24,493 --> 00:47:28,113
But yet profit is still demanded through that interest.

530
00:47:28,133 --> 00:47:31,053
And like that's not lending in any just way.

531
00:47:31,133 --> 00:47:32,933
That's just straight up extraction.

532
00:47:33,933 --> 00:47:40,113
And it's like, but there's also a twofold kind of like evil to this, where usury also

533
00:47:40,113 --> 00:47:42,953
dehumanizes both sides of the equation.

534
00:47:42,953 --> 00:47:46,893
So like the borrower is reduced to a tool, a means of repayment.

535
00:47:47,353 --> 00:47:51,733
It's a human being collateralized and mortgaged like their life.

536
00:47:52,353 --> 00:48:01,513
And the lender is elevated above their humanity, above honest work with this claim to profit without ever sharing the human journey.

537
00:48:01,873 --> 00:48:03,573
So it's like that's not cooperation.

538
00:48:03,913 --> 00:48:05,133
You know, that's domination.

539
00:48:06,213 --> 00:48:12,573
Aristotle recognized money as barren, you know, unlike the land that yields crops or labor that creates a good, you know,

540
00:48:12,573 --> 00:48:15,353
like you were saying, the money doesn't just reproduce itself.

541
00:48:15,893 --> 00:48:20,053
You know, so usury is that lie that we can create something from nothing,

542
00:48:20,613 --> 00:48:23,553
that money can just multiply by its existence.

543
00:48:24,073 --> 00:48:29,533
And when we as a society accept that, we end up with exactly what we see today.

544
00:48:29,853 --> 00:48:32,353
Central banks printing money and lending it out of interest.

545
00:48:32,353 --> 00:48:35,393
It's institutionalized usury at scale.

546
00:48:35,973 --> 00:48:40,353
It's extracting endlessly from those who produce and create real value in the world

547
00:48:40,353 --> 00:48:43,293
while we're rewarding those that create nothing.

548
00:48:43,893 --> 00:48:46,813
So like that distinction between a just loan,

549
00:48:46,993 --> 00:48:48,113
which shares risk,

550
00:48:48,753 --> 00:48:51,333
and usury, which eliminates that risk,

551
00:48:51,393 --> 00:48:52,873
is very simple and clear.

552
00:48:53,053 --> 00:48:56,993
And if someone is trying to obfuscate that clarity,

553
00:48:57,513 --> 00:48:59,673
that should really prick your ears.

554
00:49:00,593 --> 00:49:01,913
One is a partnership,

555
00:49:02,173 --> 00:49:03,713
the other is literal enslavement.

556
00:49:03,953 --> 00:49:05,653
One preserves human dignity,

557
00:49:05,653 --> 00:49:07,193
the other desecrates it.

558
00:49:07,193 --> 00:49:14,213
um so like that that's why usury is such an important thing to the hard reject but and this

559
00:49:14,213 --> 00:49:19,933
is where like so you you kind of you set this whole conversation up here like you have two ends

560
00:49:19,933 --> 00:49:28,473
of the scale right um usury uh is bad and uh therefore we should have no lending at all

561
00:49:28,473 --> 00:49:36,513
which is the wrong way to think about it because it as you've so rightly put here um

562
00:49:36,513 --> 00:49:44,733
if you are taking the risk you are and you're using money that you have you know used your

563
00:49:44,733 --> 00:49:50,293
skills and your knowledge to to gain it might have taken you 10 years to to to like amass that

564
00:49:50,293 --> 00:49:55,633
amount of money before you're willing to uh to go into a partnership with someone to help them

565
00:49:55,633 --> 00:50:00,893
grow their business or whatever it is uh that they're trying to achieve and you take on that

566
00:50:00,893 --> 00:50:07,113
risk. Whereas, and let's take, and here's the sick part, Neil, this is the sickest part of all.

567
00:50:07,953 --> 00:50:14,473
You've got thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people out there that are working

568
00:50:14,473 --> 00:50:22,933
for banking institutions that are like in the loan division, for example. And their whole

569
00:50:22,933 --> 00:50:28,693
marketing strategy, the bank's marketing strategy is at small to medium-sized enterprises,

570
00:50:28,693 --> 00:50:34,733
small business owners, mom and pop stores, whatever it is, you know, we are here to help

571
00:50:34,733 --> 00:50:41,413
the small businesses. We want to, you know, help create a better community. Let's get the high

572
00:50:41,413 --> 00:50:47,673
street back up and running, come to us and get a small business loan. And the person that is

573
00:50:47,673 --> 00:50:52,353
sitting there behind the computer running all these checks and doing whatever else, they don't

574
00:50:52,353 --> 00:51:00,813
realize that they are literally lending nothing like the the money came from nowhere

575
00:51:00,813 --> 00:51:08,953
it's pure usury when you take a business loan a holiday loan a car loan buy a sofa loan

576
00:51:08,953 --> 00:51:19,133
a mortgage on your house all of this is usury in its purest form and people being used

577
00:51:19,133 --> 00:51:26,733
to promote it, to market it.

578
00:51:27,693 --> 00:51:30,773
And I might be triggering a few people here,

579
00:51:30,793 --> 00:51:34,873
and I'm very, very sorry if you are head of a loan department

580
00:51:34,873 --> 00:51:36,753
or a mortgage broker or something.

581
00:51:37,313 --> 00:51:41,973
But this is where the moral question comes in, right?

582
00:51:42,193 --> 00:51:43,313
What you were talking about.

583
00:51:43,373 --> 00:51:45,893
And it's not like I'm saying rage quit and resign,

584
00:51:46,593 --> 00:51:48,813
but it's time to have the conversation.

585
00:51:49,133 --> 00:52:11,093
Yeah, you need to actually look in the mirror, reflect upon what's actually happening, because we create the world which we deserve. And, you know, if you're sitting here complaining about the state of, you know, oh, man, the politics are this and oh, my gosh, the government's that. And like, you're doing this, too. Like, these are all connected, you know.

586
00:52:11,093 --> 00:52:26,933
But yeah, that was one of the biggest realizations that I had was like, when you look at the mechanics of a mortgage, you know, and it's like, as soon as you sign, like the bank doesn't have real money that they're sitting on.

587
00:52:27,033 --> 00:52:30,433
And like, we would just love to loan this to you so you could buy this house.

588
00:52:30,693 --> 00:52:32,333
Like, they don't have that.

589
00:52:33,173 --> 00:52:37,813
It's as soon as you sign and they click, that's when those dollars are created.

590
00:52:37,813 --> 00:52:45,973
So it's like, it just blew my mind, you know, from, because like, it's really simple because we project kind of like our own self.

591
00:52:46,073 --> 00:52:47,993
You're like, well, I have $20 in my pocket.

592
00:52:48,653 --> 00:52:53,513
And if Bill needs 20 bucks and I loan it to him, well, I hand it, I pick it up and I give it to him.

593
00:52:53,573 --> 00:53:01,813
And it's like, hey, you go, you know, hit me back, you know, give me whatever, you know, either pay me back the 20 with no interest or pay me back 25.

594
00:53:01,813 --> 00:53:10,473
Like whatever you agree to, you know, consensually, non-coercively, like you could say, hey, I'll give you this 20 bucks, but you got to give me 40 back next week.

595
00:53:10,933 --> 00:53:19,593
You know, if he if he needs that money and he agrees to those terms and like I don't have I don't think there's a you could say that's unwise or something like that.

596
00:53:19,613 --> 00:53:20,893
But I don't think that's immoral.

597
00:53:21,453 --> 00:53:27,693
You know, like the interest rate is not what makes that arrangement immoral if it's consensual and all that stuff.

598
00:53:27,693 --> 00:53:33,293
but like the creation of that like i don't have 20 bucks but i just pretend like i gave it to you

599
00:53:33,293 --> 00:53:40,513
and now you owe me it's like what well what what but that's our monetary system and and we just

600
00:53:40,513 --> 00:53:46,933
pretend like that's normal because we don't think about we just we i don't know it's it's not good

601
00:53:46,933 --> 00:53:52,453
and and the the interest rates are arbitrary like i i know it's a little bit different in the states

602
00:53:52,453 --> 00:53:54,413
I think you can get like a 30-year fixed.

603
00:53:55,173 --> 00:53:58,253
But over here in Europe, some countries in Europe,

604
00:53:58,313 --> 00:53:59,893
you might be able to get like longer term.

605
00:54:00,053 --> 00:54:02,333
But in the UK and many other countries in Europe,

606
00:54:02,413 --> 00:54:04,413
you might be looking at like five years max.

607
00:54:04,913 --> 00:54:08,513
And in that time, interest rates, that's another lever

608
00:54:08,513 --> 00:54:12,353
that these fuckers can pull, for want of a better word,

609
00:54:12,893 --> 00:54:19,253
to grease the wheels of this fiat absolute nightmare

610
00:54:19,253 --> 00:54:20,713
of a system in which we're trapped.

611
00:54:20,713 --> 00:54:25,933
and you are counterparty risk to not just the bank,

612
00:54:26,093 --> 00:54:28,713
but also that you've taken the mortgage out with,

613
00:54:28,813 --> 00:54:29,913
but to the central bank

614
00:54:29,913 --> 00:54:33,313
and their psychopathic tendencies

615
00:54:33,313 --> 00:54:35,173
to do whatever, whenever.

616
00:54:36,273 --> 00:54:38,633
And here's the big thing that dropped for me.

617
00:54:39,293 --> 00:54:42,053
It's like, well, okay, so people go in,

618
00:54:42,653 --> 00:54:44,333
they want the dream house,

619
00:54:44,413 --> 00:54:45,553
they want the bigger house or whatever.

620
00:54:45,953 --> 00:54:50,653
They've saved, let's say $50,000 or pounds or euros

621
00:54:50,653 --> 00:55:00,053
through work yeah five seven ten years hard work using a skill set using their knowledge

622
00:55:00,053 --> 00:55:05,533
using their graft using their you know physical strength whatever job you've been doing

623
00:55:05,533 --> 00:55:13,353
and saving for maybe working 10 12 hours a day to get to that point and that 50 000 pounds

624
00:55:13,353 --> 00:55:21,373
represents the last 10 years of what you have been studying to do and put into use actual value

625
00:55:21,373 --> 00:55:28,313
into the economic system. That £50,000, euros or dollars doesn't buy you anything other than

626
00:55:28,313 --> 00:55:36,653
the right to cross the line into this gilded building to then say, can you loan me the other

627
00:55:36,653 --> 00:55:42,653
£400,000 I need so I can buy this house? And they say, yeah, sure. Do a few checks on you,

628
00:55:42,653 --> 00:55:49,493
make sure you feel belittled just enough and uh then they'll just drop that four hundred thousand

629
00:55:49,493 --> 00:55:56,153
dollars digitally into your account and what's happened you don't have the fifty thousand pounds

630
00:55:56,153 --> 00:56:01,353
anymore and you have well you don't have the house either it's still the bank's house

631
00:56:01,353 --> 00:56:10,653
and you have to be paying back this interest rate that's just pulled out of someone's butt

632
00:56:10,653 --> 00:56:18,113
there wasn't yeah there was it's even if you think you've got a good deal even if it's like

633
00:56:18,113 --> 00:56:26,433
yeah man i got like uh 0.75 over 30 years it's still usury because the money didn't exist

634
00:56:26,433 --> 00:56:33,813
and you're paying it back yep and you can't like that's that's the again this is like

635
00:56:33,813 --> 00:56:40,413
i think people get lost with this peer-to-peer aspect like we are human beings

636
00:56:40,413 --> 00:56:45,513
We are not, you know, we're on the same plane, you know, we're equals in dignity.

637
00:56:46,133 --> 00:56:50,853
And the people at the money printer, they're not peers.

638
00:56:51,193 --> 00:56:52,033
They're above.

639
00:56:52,253 --> 00:56:57,473
And like you said, you get access, you pay that, you work your life, you save up that

640
00:56:57,473 --> 00:56:59,833
real, those real 50,000.

641
00:57:00,233 --> 00:57:03,713
And that just gives you access to that thing.

642
00:57:03,713 --> 00:57:13,973
And like with the debasement is also kind of a, it fuels that too, because everybody knows that saving is bad.

643
00:57:14,033 --> 00:57:23,113
Like if you just kept saving, you're like, I'm going to work 40 more years to get that house, you know, and pay for it in cash.

644
00:57:23,153 --> 00:57:29,413
Like if you're just saving that in your mattress, you're just, it's losing and losing and losing value.

645
00:57:29,413 --> 00:57:33,773
All the value you put into it is getting extracted out as they print more and more money.

646
00:57:34,213 --> 00:57:39,273
So that's why you're just like, well, yeah, if I have access to this interest, if I can

647
00:57:39,273 --> 00:57:45,853
buy any appreciating asset, appreciating, I'll put in quotes, any hard asset that's

648
00:57:45,853 --> 00:57:50,473
not cash, that's not a dollar, you want that.

649
00:57:51,013 --> 00:57:52,673
That's why we have no middle class.

650
00:57:52,873 --> 00:57:57,193
The middle class has been hollowed out and we just have those with appreciating assets

651
00:57:57,193 --> 00:57:58,233
and those without.

652
00:57:58,233 --> 00:58:05,513
out. And like, it's crazy when you think that the house is just a utility, your house should

653
00:58:05,513 --> 00:58:11,133
actually probably depreciate like your car, the more you use it, the more it wears down and this

654
00:58:11,133 --> 00:58:15,953
and that. But it's like, oh, man, in the last five years, my house has doubled in value. It's like,

655
00:58:16,273 --> 00:58:22,973
no, no, the dollars are just worth half as much your when you when you dive into all the economic

656
00:58:22,973 --> 00:58:27,593
charts and stuff, and you realize that, you know, the housing market just literally tracks the

657
00:58:27,593 --> 00:58:42,825
basement and that treading it like i i told one of my wife friends that and like i could tell that it hit and it clicked it just clicked in her head because like i saw all the life like like she saw a ghost and she like she

658
00:58:42,825 --> 00:58:46,985
realized like she thought oh well we're getting ahead on our house it's going up in value and

659
00:58:46,985 --> 00:58:53,605
it's like no all the money is just worth less and it's like it's a it is a shocking thing you know

660
00:58:53,605 --> 00:58:58,305
to realize your house isn't more valuable it's just the dollars and that's what happens every

661
00:58:58,305 --> 00:59:03,125
times it's happening every second of every day like people think when we talk about the basement

662
00:59:03,125 --> 00:59:09,965
and they're talking about oh that once a quarter where the government announces oh the 150 billion

663
00:59:09,965 --> 00:59:14,905
dollars injected into the economy to kickstart and blah blah blah it's like no guys it's happening

664
00:59:14,905 --> 00:59:19,605
every second of every day just happened now some guy just took out a car loan some person just took

665
00:59:19,605 --> 00:59:24,385
out a loan for a sofa somebody's just bought something on finance in the store click they

666
00:59:24,385 --> 00:59:31,645
finance the burrito right that's what they do now finance a burrito oh my god oh so like you have

667
00:59:31,645 --> 00:59:37,225
this debt which is just creeping up and up and up and up and up and up and the reason they have to

668
00:59:37,225 --> 00:59:41,665
inject money into the system every now and then is just to kind of close that gap like this idea

669
00:59:41,665 --> 00:59:47,265
that we're ever going to cap the debt ceiling is absolute freaking pantomime it's just theater

670
00:59:47,265 --> 00:59:52,805
like you know it's just politics that's all it is and people get the thing no one will say

671
00:59:52,805 --> 00:59:55,725
is that it's an expansionary system.

672
00:59:56,125 --> 00:59:59,905
Like without the principle of expanding the money supply,

673
01:00:00,205 --> 01:00:01,245
it will fall.

674
01:00:02,025 --> 01:00:02,925
Like, so it's just like,

675
01:00:03,325 --> 01:00:04,365
that's why it's,

676
01:00:04,585 --> 01:00:06,485
you can say that it will always continue.

677
01:00:06,825 --> 01:00:08,185
Like this isn't,

678
01:00:08,325 --> 01:00:10,305
it's not mismanagement,

679
01:00:10,865 --> 01:00:11,345
you know,

680
01:00:11,425 --> 01:00:12,105
and it's like,

681
01:00:12,165 --> 01:00:12,685
it's not like,

682
01:00:12,765 --> 01:00:13,305
oh, we just,

683
01:00:14,025 --> 01:00:14,905
every time,

684
01:00:15,025 --> 01:00:15,525
you know,

685
01:00:15,645 --> 01:00:18,885
the Fed chair goes to the podium,

686
01:00:19,225 --> 01:00:21,025
the entire world waits with,

687
01:00:21,025 --> 01:00:21,365
you know,

688
01:00:21,445 --> 01:00:21,985
bated breath.

689
01:00:21,985 --> 01:00:38,185
Like, what's he going to say? Oh, a quarter point up. Oh, a half a point down. Like, if we just get it just right, we'll, you know, we'll create abundance and utopia. It's like, no, you, this is, we are not, that's not, that's not reality.

690
01:00:38,185 --> 01:00:51,945
You know, you're asking in the book. That's why I talk about like this, this modern, this monetary Gnosticism, this idea that the secret sauce that only I possess, the elites that they can bring about, you know, salvation and utopia.

691
01:00:51,945 --> 01:01:00,405
It's like that's what our monetary, monetary, our monetary system is. You know, we have to trust this Gnostic elites with the secret sauce.

692
01:01:00,405 --> 01:01:06,985
but it's just like I'm not going to step into the bubble like when you step into their little

693
01:01:06,985 --> 01:01:11,925
sphere of enchantment you're already in the game and there's no there's no fixing it from within

694
01:01:11,925 --> 01:01:17,505
there you know it's it's literally only the removal the stepping away from and say I'm not

695
01:01:17,505 --> 01:01:24,145
coming in and that's kind of the that's what Bitcoin does Bitcoin is just I'm stepping out

696
01:01:24,145 --> 01:01:30,365
I'm done I'm out of it I'm not playing the fiat game and it's like as this transition you

697
01:01:30,365 --> 01:01:36,905
know, the transition between fiat to Bitcoin, you know, it's going to take a lot longer than I would

698
01:01:36,905 --> 01:01:44,305
hope, you know, it's not a switch, you know, and it's going to get messy probably, but I'm okay

699
01:01:44,305 --> 01:01:50,425
with that. You know, like I, if I know the principles, if I know what's, you know, driving

700
01:01:50,425 --> 01:01:54,845
these things, like, I guess that's what, when you look at the Bitcoin price chart and, you know,

701
01:01:54,845 --> 01:01:57,245
Like it's, oh, volatility, it's crazy.

702
01:01:57,685 --> 01:02:02,085
And it's like that if you come at it from the economic lens, you're like, I don't understand it.

703
01:02:02,265 --> 01:02:03,225
This doesn't make sense.

704
01:02:03,345 --> 01:02:06,365
Like, why is this thing just, you know, appreciating over time?

705
01:02:06,445 --> 01:02:08,085
But like day to day, it's crazy.

706
01:02:08,085 --> 01:02:12,885
And it's like, well, like what I wrote in that book, like that's not my idea.

707
01:02:13,345 --> 01:02:22,725
Aristotle recognized that ethics comes before economics and that it's literally the ethical foundation that drives economics.

708
01:02:22,725 --> 01:02:30,845
So like economic activity, people exchanging anything with this presupposes fairness, justice, like all this.

709
01:02:31,025 --> 01:02:39,365
So it's just when you understand, like, I don't talk about ethics and morality because it's just like fun.

710
01:02:39,445 --> 01:02:44,265
It's like a different way. It's like, no, no, it's literally the engine that drives the economics.

711
01:02:44,265 --> 01:02:49,425
So if you understand why, it's real simple.

712
01:02:50,185 --> 01:02:53,085
Ethical money is more valuable than unethical money.

713
01:02:53,645 --> 01:02:55,105
Like, that's it.

714
01:02:55,245 --> 01:02:59,865
If you understand that singular line, that explains Bitcoin's price.

715
01:03:00,505 --> 01:03:01,825
And you're like, oh, but it's up and it's down.

716
01:03:01,945 --> 01:03:02,085
It's up.

717
01:03:02,345 --> 01:03:09,485
Yeah, but over time, it's just like it's an energy transfer from the immoral to the moral.

718
01:03:10,245 --> 01:03:12,905
And like, that's not going to change.

719
01:03:12,905 --> 01:03:16,945
That's an immutable human, you know, that's part of our humanity.

720
01:03:17,825 --> 01:03:25,465
So as long as we're still human beings engaged in economic activity, that transfer of energy is only one way.

721
01:03:25,565 --> 01:03:32,885
It is a ratchet. And that's why I like I want people to, you know, to understand that.

722
01:03:32,885 --> 01:03:35,445
So because that takes the risk out of it. And, you know, like.

723
01:03:35,445 --> 01:03:44,305
I'm okay. Like I care so much about not handing off fiat and central banking to my children,

724
01:03:44,305 --> 01:03:49,285
like that. This is the fight. This is my, what I'm going to dedicate my life to. And this is

725
01:03:49,285 --> 01:03:53,765
what I'm trying to do and what I'm doing with the book and coming on podcasts and talking to people

726
01:03:53,765 --> 01:03:58,925
and talking to the local communities and my neighbors. Like I care about them. I love them.

727
01:03:58,925 --> 01:04:05,925
and I want them to not be abused. I want them to not be debased. And, you know, so it's just like

728
01:04:05,925 --> 01:04:12,065
pushing that forward. Like, you don't have to be scared. Like that deer in the headlight look,

729
01:04:12,105 --> 01:04:15,665
you don't have to, like, you can actually flip it around because we have the power.

730
01:04:16,165 --> 01:04:22,945
Like, it's just like, because we have the ethics, we have the morals. Like, and as long as we stay

731
01:04:22,945 --> 01:04:30,285
on that moral high ground, there's no, there's no way that it can, you know, sure, could it all

732
01:04:30,285 --> 01:04:34,905
fall off the track and like the entire world, you know, be destroyed? It's like, sure, I totally

733
01:04:34,905 --> 01:04:42,245
understand that. Like, but if it fails like that, I mean, I don't know, it's worth the risk to me

734
01:04:42,245 --> 01:04:47,365
that like pushing for that, knowing that we have this asymmetrical moral advantage,

735
01:04:47,365 --> 01:04:50,045
than just like, I don't know,

736
01:04:50,125 --> 01:04:51,965
trying to just extract from other people

737
01:04:51,965 --> 01:04:53,585
and redistribute and come out.

738
01:04:53,825 --> 01:04:55,565
That's why I hate about just trading.

739
01:04:56,005 --> 01:04:57,225
When we're just trading,

740
01:04:57,665 --> 01:05:00,385
it's just like the gains are always somebody's losses.

741
01:05:01,225 --> 01:05:03,545
But when we come together,

742
01:05:04,005 --> 01:05:05,525
you have to create value,

743
01:05:05,705 --> 01:05:06,945
I have to create value,

744
01:05:06,945 --> 01:05:09,505
and we come together in an economic exchange

745
01:05:09,505 --> 01:05:10,645
where we both benefit.

746
01:05:11,505 --> 01:05:14,125
That's what abundance is.

747
01:05:14,385 --> 01:05:15,105
That's how it's created.

748
01:05:15,105 --> 01:05:17,765
Like it's both of our worlds are better.

749
01:05:18,045 --> 01:05:21,965
Like abundance is just everybody's world getting better all the time.

750
01:05:22,205 --> 01:05:26,945
But like, if I have to trade you something like, oh, I got in here and I think this is

751
01:05:26,945 --> 01:05:30,525
overvalued and this and that, and I'm going to play all these games and buy and sell like

752
01:05:30,525 --> 01:05:34,665
horizontally, it's like no more value is created in the world.

753
01:05:35,265 --> 01:05:37,405
We're not both better off.

754
01:05:38,145 --> 01:05:40,125
One of us will be and one of us won't be.

755
01:05:41,325 --> 01:05:43,385
And it's just like, that's not the world I want.

756
01:05:43,385 --> 01:05:49,765
I don't want to I don't want that world I want the world where we all can like win and to to

757
01:05:49,765 --> 01:05:55,685
really drive home this point that you're trying to make about how immoral and unethical the whole

758
01:05:55,685 --> 01:06:01,845
system is we just looked at um on the ground kind of taking out a mortgage taking out a loan for

759
01:06:01,845 --> 01:06:07,205
holiday or whatever uh that side of things but then on the other side of things you do have the

760
01:06:07,205 --> 01:06:12,925
central banks at play and you have the governments and a lot of people might not even if you're new

761
01:06:12,925 --> 01:06:19,065
to the show uh you might not even realize the central bank is a private entity it is not part

762
01:06:19,065 --> 01:06:24,725
of the government it makes its own decisions and they have their own stakeholders and therefore

763
01:06:24,725 --> 01:06:30,765
they are working in their interests uh not for the people and never for the government and the way

764
01:06:30,765 --> 01:06:37,425
that the government might raise money from the central bank is to sell them uh like a 10-year

765
01:06:37,425 --> 01:06:41,185
a bond or something at a certain interest rate.

766
01:06:41,885 --> 01:06:44,165
So the central bank would then, okay, yeah, sure.

767
01:06:44,265 --> 01:06:47,765
We will buy that for a hundred billion dollars, pounds, euros, whatever.

768
01:06:48,425 --> 01:06:52,245
So they give, they give that money, but where does that money come from?

769
01:06:52,665 --> 01:06:55,565
It's just printed out of thin air.

770
01:06:55,905 --> 01:07:02,125
And it's so like one thing extending me a mortgage for a hundred thousand pounds, a

771
01:07:02,125 --> 01:07:09,885
different thing extended $100 billion to the government and then charged them interest on it,

772
01:07:10,005 --> 01:07:15,805
which they can't pay back unless they extract it from you because they don't offer any value or

773
01:07:15,805 --> 01:07:20,645
goods or services into the economy. They have to extract it through you through taxation.

774
01:07:21,505 --> 01:07:28,705
But here's the darkest bit. They're doing that to pay back Central Bank that gave them the money.

775
01:07:28,705 --> 01:07:35,645
but if the central bank can create 100 billion dollars whenever it wants why would it ever want

776
01:07:35,645 --> 01:07:42,985
the money back even with interest so what does it want well it wants and this is where we come back

777
01:07:42,985 --> 01:07:49,345
to the beginning where we talked about forever wars it wants mineral rich lands it wants assets

778
01:07:49,345 --> 01:07:58,425
it wants real estate it wants forests it wants rivers it wants mountains it wants whatever it

779
01:07:58,425 --> 01:08:06,865
is an insatiable beast that will extract everything at whatever means necessary.

780
01:08:07,425 --> 01:08:14,665
And if we go back to it in the book, the quote, the axiom that money is power, this is what

781
01:08:14,665 --> 01:08:16,145
they're going to keep using.

782
01:08:16,245 --> 01:08:19,505
They use the power to get what they want.

783
01:08:19,505 --> 01:08:27,285
And this is why we have whole continents being given the moniker of developing nations that

784
01:08:27,285 --> 01:08:31,805
have been completely destroyed by the IMF and the World Bank,

785
01:08:32,085 --> 01:08:34,885
which are just separate arms of the same beast.

786
01:08:34,965 --> 01:08:37,425
It's just so disgusting and unethical.

787
01:08:37,725 --> 01:08:41,485
And forces people like yourself to end up in situations

788
01:08:41,485 --> 01:08:44,345
where you're on the front lines of an actual war,

789
01:08:44,905 --> 01:08:49,745
where people are fighting over oil fields or gold mines

790
01:08:49,745 --> 01:08:51,065
or whatever it might be.

791
01:08:51,225 --> 01:08:52,325
It's just disgusting.

792
01:08:53,645 --> 01:08:54,285
Yeah.

793
01:08:55,225 --> 01:08:56,565
No, it is.

794
01:08:57,285 --> 01:09:16,505
I think the other interesting thing, kind of like, when capital is raised in this manner, you know, we'll put capital in quotes, you know, but it makes, like, pain is actually a really good thing.

795
01:09:16,505 --> 01:09:22,385
You know, I forget whatever the condition is for the people that can't feel pain, but like they don't have a very long lifespan.

796
01:09:23,005 --> 01:09:29,165
It's like that feedback about how you are navigating through reality is really important.

797
01:09:29,545 --> 01:09:30,665
Like that's high signal.

798
01:09:31,545 --> 01:09:41,665
And when you feel the pain of loss, I'm risking, you know, I'm investing my money in you and you fail and that means I lose.

799
01:09:41,665 --> 01:09:49,765
it like it means that i have to actually be careful and and discern what's like discern the

800
01:09:49,765 --> 01:09:54,785
risk get a real good grasp and understanding about what the endeavor i'm trying to invest

801
01:09:54,785 --> 01:10:02,965
into is you know like i i i don't people say oh if we can't print money then then no one will ever

802
01:10:02,965 --> 01:10:08,545
invest and then business will stagnate and blah blah blah blah blah and it's like no they just

803
01:10:08,545 --> 01:10:12,385
won't, you can't afford to invest recklessly.

804
01:10:12,805 --> 01:10:28,497
You know like that what that what the no pain thing lets you do It lets you be reckless with your lending And it like in the book I think the stats what I quote I mean it like 95 of all startups fail within five years

805
01:10:28,777 --> 01:10:32,037
And people will say like, oh, that just means it's really hard and it's super competitive.

806
01:10:32,477 --> 01:10:34,357
And I'm like, I don't take it that.

807
01:10:34,457 --> 01:10:38,817
I think that means that 95% of businesses shouldn't be invested in.

808
01:10:38,817 --> 01:10:46,237
the people, the idea, like whatever they're trying to create isn't needed and, or they can't execute

809
01:10:46,237 --> 01:10:54,037
it. Or they just like that. You're it's the, those distortions, like you can't understand,

810
01:10:54,117 --> 01:10:58,917
you can't see the market. So you don't actually know where to allocate your capital to when

811
01:10:58,917 --> 01:11:03,937
everything's just so crazy. You know, it's like, so you're, it kind of comes at us from all these

812
01:11:03,937 --> 01:11:07,377
different angles. It's like, well, if you sit on your cash, you're going to get debased.

813
01:11:07,377 --> 01:11:12,917
so you like it's the it's a shove into the speculation so you have to do something with

814
01:11:12,917 --> 01:11:16,857
it well what should i do with it well i need to invest it in something i don't know what to invest

815
01:11:16,857 --> 01:11:23,837
in but uh i'll just throw it everywhere i'm a i'm a vc i just will you know the whole idea is like

816
01:11:23,837 --> 01:11:29,537
you you invest in like 20 different things and the one pays out and it's like that's really bad

817
01:11:29,537 --> 01:11:37,517
batting average like maybe it's a better way is to allocate the capital and more you know use your

818
01:11:37,517 --> 01:11:44,217
brain and and actually discern where it needs to go and what like i don't know that's just like the

819
01:11:44,217 --> 01:11:50,377
i don't know the the dgen speculative thing like that's why people like vcs do it with businesses

820
01:11:50,377 --> 01:11:55,437
you know people do it with the shit coins people do it you know betting on sports like it's just

821
01:11:55,437 --> 01:12:01,997
like if your life has so little meaning that there's nothing to worth to look further ahead

822
01:12:01,997 --> 01:12:06,077
in and you're just going on that day to day and you're like well if i hit the if i hit the power

823
01:12:06,077 --> 01:12:12,277
ball that'll change my life it's like okay well that's not again that like that's is that the best

824
01:12:12,277 --> 01:12:17,257
way to allocate your capital is that the best way to like you know actually create meaning and value

825
01:12:17,257 --> 01:12:22,957
in the world in your life and it's like no like that's that's you've led us this is the perfect

826
01:12:22,957 --> 01:12:29,797
segue into Bitcoin treasury companies right here. And I'm talking about the pure play Bitcoin

827
01:12:29,797 --> 01:12:37,397
treasury companies. I'm not talking about... I'm a small business and I'm saving in Bitcoin.

828
01:12:37,817 --> 01:12:45,737
Yeah, that's completely different. Tahini's is a perfect example. A company that started out of

829
01:12:45,737 --> 01:12:51,157
Canada and using a monthly profit to buy Bitcoin.

830
01:12:51,497 --> 01:12:55,177
Ali, who was running the restaurants, was listening to podcasts while he was doing the

831
01:12:55,177 --> 01:13:00,617
washing up for like five hours a night, just listening, downloading, downloading, download.

832
01:13:00,837 --> 01:13:01,477
Oh, click.

833
01:13:01,637 --> 01:13:01,837
Right.

834
01:13:01,937 --> 01:13:06,997
Let's take some of our profit, which we have spent energy and expertise.

835
01:13:07,917 --> 01:13:09,077
Created value.

836
01:13:09,477 --> 01:13:10,097
Creating value.

837
01:13:10,097 --> 01:13:10,657
And we have abundance.

838
01:13:10,657 --> 01:13:17,617
creating food, engaging with our customers, getting the feedback, giving them what they want,

839
01:13:17,957 --> 01:13:24,217
and working hard, let's just take that profit and buy Bitcoin and put it on the balance sheet of the

840
01:13:24,217 --> 01:13:31,457
company to protect us from the monetary policies of today, which we've just been discussing.

841
01:13:32,357 --> 01:13:39,197
And Saylor even quoted Tahini's as an example, as an inspiration. And that was his original play,

842
01:13:39,197 --> 01:13:46,797
$500 million sitting on the balance sheet, losing value every single day because of the reasons we were just discussing.

843
01:13:47,357 --> 01:13:49,917
That was then put onto the balance sheet.

844
01:13:50,477 --> 01:13:51,937
Every month, profit would follow.

845
01:13:52,257 --> 01:13:57,137
Now, five years later, it's a lot more sophisticated than that over at Strategy.

846
01:13:58,337 --> 01:14:07,937
Now, fast forward to today, we have pure play Bitcoin treasury companies being spun up out of nowhere,

847
01:14:07,937 --> 01:14:12,837
using venture capital money to buy an existing company,

848
01:14:12,917 --> 01:14:15,637
a shell company that's already listed on a stock exchange

849
01:14:15,637 --> 01:14:17,917
so they can get to IPO very quickly

850
01:14:17,917 --> 01:14:23,717
and then start offering stocks and shares to retail,

851
01:14:24,457 --> 01:14:26,717
which is always the last to get there.

852
01:14:26,837 --> 01:14:29,197
Even if you are part of like the first tranche,

853
01:14:29,317 --> 01:14:31,497
there's always a huge amount of money,

854
01:14:32,117 --> 01:14:32,977
money in air quotes,

855
01:14:33,117 --> 01:14:37,177
this VC money that is being just thrown at these things.

856
01:14:37,937 --> 01:14:43,097
Now, my question to you would be around this, because I've been thinking about it a lot.

857
01:14:44,097 --> 01:14:45,637
And I'm sure people have seen my tweets.

858
01:14:48,157 --> 01:15:05,977
A lot of the way it's been explained to me, almost like the cope method, is they've built a bridge for the trapped fiat money in the traditional system to bridge across to the Bitcoin rails.

859
01:15:05,977 --> 01:15:07,277
And this is how we win.

860
01:15:07,277 --> 01:15:13,097
We're Trojan horsing the whole fiat, and they're coming for it.

861
01:15:14,017 --> 01:15:16,377
And I don't think we're really asking the right questions.

862
01:15:16,917 --> 01:15:20,457
First of all, financial engineers built that bridge,

863
01:15:20,637 --> 01:15:22,897
not structural or civil engineers.

864
01:15:24,177 --> 01:15:27,577
Financial engineers, people on Wall Street are building these bridges,

865
01:15:27,837 --> 01:15:31,617
and they know what they're doing far better than anybody

866
01:15:31,617 --> 01:15:33,157
that's spinning up these companies does.

867
01:15:33,737 --> 01:15:35,657
Who's the bridge built for?

868
01:15:35,777 --> 01:15:36,737
Who's using it?

869
01:15:36,737 --> 01:15:39,057
Who's charging the tolls on that bridge?

870
01:15:39,737 --> 01:15:47,317
And finally, my thought is, well, are we Trojan horsing this fiat monetary system?

871
01:15:47,557 --> 01:15:50,077
Or are we validating it?

872
01:15:51,737 --> 01:15:53,117
Where do you fall on that?

873
01:15:54,497 --> 01:16:02,857
So I think that that, so like most things, like if you pick up from the book, I think it's a little both, you know.

874
01:16:02,857 --> 01:16:09,957
and it it really comes down to the individual and how what their intention and what they're

875
01:16:09,957 --> 01:16:14,137
trying to do what like what is the purpose and the function that you're trying to achieve

876
01:16:14,137 --> 01:16:23,297
um for for my own uh you know when when i was talking to my broker you know i have you know

877
01:16:23,297 --> 01:16:28,297
some small little you know retirement stuff and it was just like uh you know like well what can i

878
01:16:28,297 --> 01:16:36,197
do with this? You know, that was kind of when, uh, like, uh, MSTR was, you know, kind of coming

879
01:16:36,197 --> 01:16:40,937
around and I was looking at that and I was like, okay, well, they're doing things like, I can't,

880
01:16:41,237 --> 01:16:46,817
what can I do with this money? I can't do anything with it. Well, could I buy MSTR with that? You

881
01:16:46,817 --> 01:16:50,017
know? And I asked them at my brokers like, oh no, we can't do that. You know, what do you mean you

882
01:16:50,017 --> 01:16:54,537
can't do that? Like, uh, just our, uh, you know, not named companies or whatever, but they're just

883
01:16:54,537 --> 01:16:59,737
like we don't do it we won't we won't touch it it's like it's just a ticker you can't buy the

884
01:16:59,737 --> 01:17:04,917
ticker like nope we won't do it so it's just like you know that's trapped capital you know that's

885
01:17:04,917 --> 01:17:11,297
money that i couldn't even put there if i wanted to and it's just like so like that is a a real

886
01:17:11,297 --> 01:17:18,317
thing like a person is trying like legitimately has trapped capital like putting it into a uh

887
01:17:18,317 --> 01:17:23,937
a bitcoin treasury company to get exposure to bitcoin i think that's fine that's a perfectly

888
01:17:23,937 --> 01:17:32,717
valid play um but if you're trying to trade like that it's a it's are you are you trying to save

889
01:17:32,717 --> 01:17:38,737
are you trying to get bitcoin exposure because like you don't want it sitting in just fiat

890
01:17:38,737 --> 01:17:44,557
like if if that's what you're trying to do i think that's a perfectly valid play but if you're trying

891
01:17:44,557 --> 01:17:51,517
to win a trade where you're going to necessarily like where there will be a winner and a loser i'm

892
01:17:51,517 --> 01:17:58,017
going to rug i'm going to dump on somebody i just want this thing to i have a sale price i have a

893
01:17:58,017 --> 01:18:02,477
strike price or whatever you know like if this thing two and a half x's i'm out and i'm just

894
01:18:02,477 --> 01:18:09,437
taking my fiat you know like you're playing you're playing an extractive game and that's that's just

895
01:18:09,437 --> 01:18:18,897
degen so if you're going to degen under the bitcoin logo i have uh even more like i i have a

896
01:18:18,897 --> 01:18:24,357
little if you're going to degen on shitcoin or fartcoin or whatever you know stupid coin you're

897
01:18:24,357 --> 01:18:30,477
going to do that's fine are you going to pump apple stock or tesla stock or this like that's a

898
01:18:30,477 --> 01:18:35,497
that's a little different but like trying to do that under the flag of bitcoin i think is a little

899
01:18:35,497 --> 01:18:43,777
uh even more it's a little more degen to me because it's playing off of the association like

900
01:18:43,777 --> 01:18:51,457
Like it's slipping in unethical things and you're trying to camouflage it in ethics.

901
01:18:51,757 --> 01:18:56,217
You know, the reason Bitcoin is valuable and does what it does is because it's moral.

902
01:18:56,637 --> 01:19:00,117
So then you're going to say, look at this moral thing and I'm going to degen underneath it.

903
01:19:00,337 --> 01:19:02,097
Like that I have a problem with.

904
01:19:02,477 --> 01:19:08,737
Like I and if you I feel bad for the people that that do that, that get into these.

905
01:19:08,877 --> 01:19:11,837
Well, I'm going to go buy a whole bunch of this or I'm going to go all in on that.

906
01:19:11,837 --> 01:19:14,337
It's like, well, do you actually know what you're doing?

907
01:19:14,817 --> 01:19:19,257
You know, like, because if you think about it for a second, like, you're still thinking

908
01:19:19,257 --> 01:19:20,117
in fiat terms.

909
01:19:20,277 --> 01:19:26,137
If you're going to get rich by selling your stock, by selling for your fiat, like, that's

910
01:19:26,137 --> 01:19:29,177
not what Bitcoin is about at all.

911
01:19:29,697 --> 01:19:35,097
You know, Bitcoin is about stepping outside of that, that Gnostic bubble, not playing

912
01:19:35,097 --> 01:19:35,717
fiat game.

913
01:19:35,817 --> 01:19:39,997
Like, if you're going to play a fiat game, I don't have any sympathy or empathy for you

914
01:19:39,997 --> 01:19:46,977
when when you you get crushed you know uh and i mean the thing is as well like you highlighted a

915
01:19:46,977 --> 01:19:54,157
point here it's trapped capital um but trapped capital for who like that again that the big

916
01:19:54,157 --> 01:20:00,797
marketing idea behind it is like the x amount of trillion dollars in the bond market so yeah well

917
01:20:00,797 --> 01:20:04,317
you got all the pensioners over here that are getting their out you know that their faces

918
01:20:04,317 --> 01:20:09,217
ripped off for like a half or one and a half percent on a 10 year 20 year 30 year bond blah

919
01:20:09,217 --> 01:20:13,957
blah, blah, blah. So now you offer them this opportunity where they can get 10% with preferred

920
01:20:13,957 --> 01:20:19,677
stocks. Hang on a minute. I don't think a pensioner is sitting there thinking, damn,

921
01:20:19,737 --> 01:20:24,237
I need some exposure to Bitcoin right now. The only people that are thinking that way

922
01:20:24,237 --> 01:20:31,457
are the existing Bitcoiners and are probably using the pensions. By the way, the pensions that they

923
01:20:31,457 --> 01:20:40,577
have saved over decades of work is now being put at risk. Sure, they're taking the risk on,

924
01:20:41,117 --> 01:20:49,137
but this seems to be the dumping ground. So you've got the initial pump, the VC money is in,

925
01:20:49,677 --> 01:20:57,777
and the best dumping ground in this whole territory is plebs pensions. And that's where I'm really

926
01:20:57,777 --> 01:21:05,037
kind of really struggling to and any and if even if like the bond theory is correct then pensioners

927
01:21:05,037 --> 01:21:10,277
bond like you're just dumping on them because oh yeah but that's fine bro because now they're

928
01:21:10,277 --> 01:21:14,917
getting six percent rather than the you know net rather than what they were getting before and

929
01:21:14,917 --> 01:21:20,037
they don't have the appetite for this kind of stuff that's why they buy bonds like you know

930
01:21:20,037 --> 01:21:30,377
it's uh i don't know man it's it's a very very strange landscape out there right now and like

931
01:21:30,377 --> 01:21:37,017
you it's all i i it feels icky to me that it's all going on under like the so-called bitcoin banner

932
01:21:37,017 --> 01:21:44,117
yeah i mean the the the economic side is not something that i'm i'm like vaguely familiar

933
01:21:44,117 --> 01:21:49,537
but i care about the principles like when i did dip my toe into that i'm trying to focus on the

934
01:21:49,537 --> 01:21:51,637
principles and what's driving these things.

935
01:21:51,637 --> 01:21:56,777
And, you know, is X company doing good or bad as a BTC company?

936
01:21:56,777 --> 01:22:18,769
I don know I don have it I don know what they doing or what they actually offering But in my head it just like it really what is their denominator If they a business that is creating a product offering value creating value in the world and they saving the value that they create in Bitcoin I think that totally above the board

937
01:22:18,769 --> 01:22:25,869
just like you're talking about the guy, he runs his restaurant, creates value, creates an abundance,

938
01:22:26,329 --> 01:22:31,469
puts that value, that abundant value into a monetary object that is Bitcoin. Like Bitcoin is

939
01:22:31,469 --> 01:22:35,809
the best. That's one of the other things people talk about. Am I too late or am I too that? Like

940
01:22:35,809 --> 01:22:45,589
even if Bitcoin was 10 billion fiat dollars, you know, a coin, what better monetary object is there

941
01:22:45,589 --> 01:22:52,649
to save in none like so that that's that's the reason that's the principled reason why the fiat

942
01:22:52,649 --> 01:22:58,689
price is irrelevant it doesn't matter like yes number go up catches people's eyes and they're

943
01:22:58,689 --> 01:23:04,389
like oh that's a great like that's a symptom of the moral money outperforming the immoral money

944
01:23:04,389 --> 01:23:10,469
but like it's just if you just ask if you're thinking about monetary objects and where do i

945
01:23:10,469 --> 01:23:15,009
put the value i create it's like well where are you going to put it you know and right now the

946
01:23:15,009 --> 01:23:20,569
answer is well put it in the house put it in an appreciate like any real asset it's like or you

947
01:23:20,569 --> 01:23:26,589
have this this literally this maximally potent monetary object like that's where i'm gonna that's

948
01:23:26,589 --> 01:23:31,509
where i'm gonna put the value that i create in my life i'm gonna put it in that because i want to

949
01:23:31,509 --> 01:23:37,809
preserve it i want to keep it i want to be able to use it and uh you know just step away step out

950
01:23:37,809 --> 01:23:42,949
um so now we get we're gonna move on to uh something as well um that i think people will

951
01:23:42,949 --> 01:23:49,069
find very interesting everybody knows this maxim hat tip marty bent fix the money fix the world

952
01:23:49,069 --> 01:23:55,669
uh but after reading uh your book uh and i tweeted this and i tagged you in on it uh you know the

953
01:23:55,669 --> 01:24:03,989
epiphany uh that you had and that helped me get to is we're using the word fix in kind of the wrong

954
01:24:03,989 --> 01:24:10,189
context here because the money's not broken right people it's been designed this way it's not broken

955
01:24:10,189 --> 01:24:16,029
that's that's one big wake-up call there's nothing to fix because it isn't broken you don't fix what

956
01:24:16,029 --> 01:24:21,429
isn't broken and this money system is working perfectly as it was designed by and again get

957
01:24:21,429 --> 01:24:26,929
back to red symphony go read it because it's all in there how they did it uh and by what mechanisms

958
01:24:26,929 --> 01:24:34,489
and by what uh disgusting and evil ways that they brought this in um you know that's where you get

959
01:24:34,489 --> 01:24:35,969
It led down very dark rabbit holes.

960
01:24:36,269 --> 01:24:37,829
But look, it's working.

961
01:24:38,069 --> 01:24:46,809
It's working, designed by the people that wanted to extract as much value and human energy as they possibly could.

962
01:24:47,309 --> 01:24:49,769
They couldn't have formed a better system.

963
01:24:50,489 --> 01:24:52,569
And hats off, Paul Wahlberg.

964
01:24:52,689 --> 01:24:55,569
You pulled it off on Jekyll Island in 1910.

965
01:24:55,569 --> 01:25:03,769
but when we say fix the money fix the world uh i now think of like the word fixed to begin with

966
01:25:03,769 --> 01:25:11,849
there is fix the money to 21 million fix it and you know no mission schedule

967
01:25:11,849 --> 01:25:24,089
yeah yeah no i i that's a the word fix you know fix the money fix the world it's like people only

968
01:25:24,089 --> 01:25:33,369
think of it as meaning repair because we often use broken. When you just say, hey, fix it,

969
01:25:33,389 --> 01:25:39,069
we're going to nail it down. It's immovable. It's not going to move. It's going to remain the same.

970
01:25:39,209 --> 01:25:45,829
It's immutable. That's what fix means in that context. But when you throw around the rhetoric

971
01:25:45,829 --> 01:25:52,449
of broken, that's what invites this idea of like, oh, it just needs repair. If we just get the

972
01:25:52,449 --> 01:25:56,149
interest rates right, if we get the right people in the Fed chair, if we get the right politicians,

973
01:25:56,149 --> 01:26:03,089
if we get this or that, we can repair this monetary system. So where it functions for us,

974
01:26:03,309 --> 01:26:10,749
and it's like, that's, that's, that abandons the morality of, of the monetary system. And when you

975
01:26:10,749 --> 01:26:16,989
realize that its function is to control people, its function is to extract from people. Like,

976
01:26:16,989 --> 01:26:25,389
that's why i i don't like like i understand why the the rhetoric of broken money like caught on

977
01:26:25,389 --> 01:26:30,869
because it does like it grasped at this like surface level truth where you're like something's

978
01:26:30,869 --> 01:26:36,609
kind of off like isn't money supposed to be working for us isn't it supposed to help us

979
01:26:36,609 --> 01:26:43,169
isn't it supposed to like but this is aristotle's great like insight when he's you know the way he

980
01:26:43,169 --> 01:26:48,769
breaks down money and he's like, what is money's final end? What's its ultimate function? You know,

981
01:26:48,809 --> 01:26:55,229
like beyond medium of exchange, like, can I give this to you? Yes. Okay. It works. You know, like

982
01:26:55,229 --> 01:27:04,049
that that's like, it's final end is, uh, what it ultimately does is it connects human beings

983
01:27:04,049 --> 01:27:11,129
socially at scale. You know, like right now you and I are talking with words, you know,

984
01:27:11,129 --> 01:27:17,609
we're communicating, we're connected through these words, but you don't talk to society at large,

985
01:27:17,609 --> 01:27:24,389
but you do with money. You like money is how we communicate at scale. So it's like,

986
01:27:25,129 --> 01:27:32,449
it's money's ultimate function is to, is, is to, to dictate the manner of how we're connected.

987
01:27:32,449 --> 01:27:40,969
We're either in cooperative, persuasive consent, you know, like we're either connecting through

988
01:27:40,969 --> 01:27:49,389
that or we're connecting through uh uh uh coercion and we're extracting and it's like that's uh those

989
01:27:49,389 --> 01:27:55,589
are the two different ways we connect you know like like i said uh i made like the little image

990
01:27:55,589 --> 01:28:02,149
but it's just like you know when you see a man chained to a plow you know would you say oh those

991
01:28:02,149 --> 01:28:07,149
chains are broken they're not working for him like that it's like no those chains are doing exactly

992
01:28:07,149 --> 01:28:11,269
what they're supposed to do. They are harnessing his productive energy to put it into the plow

993
01:28:11,269 --> 01:28:17,669
to the dude driving it. Like the chains aren't broken. So don't say like, that's what the money

994
01:28:17,669 --> 01:28:22,809
is. The money is how we connect. So you have the guy that's chained and the guy that's driving him.

995
01:28:22,869 --> 01:28:27,289
It's like, they're connected through that money. And it's like, I don't, I want to, that's an

996
01:28:27,289 --> 01:28:33,549
immoral system and we got to reject it. So when we say the money's not broken, or I guess to say

997
01:28:33,549 --> 01:28:39,989
the money's broken, we're abdicating or we're surrendering or we're leaving the moral realm.

998
01:28:39,989 --> 01:28:45,389
And we're saying it's just some like amoral neutral tool that we're just, you know,

999
01:28:45,749 --> 01:28:53,189
and that's like completely misses the point. It's a rejection or denial of money's final

1000
01:28:53,189 --> 01:29:01,569
ultimate end. So it's like, that's, I like, I 100% agree with you when we talk about fixing

1001
01:29:01,569 --> 01:29:04,649
in that like nail it down type of thing.

1002
01:29:04,769 --> 01:29:08,369
But like to think about it as repair is just, is this wrong?

1003
01:29:08,709 --> 01:29:09,769
It's not true.

1004
01:29:10,109 --> 01:29:12,289
And that's kind of what I want to push back

1005
01:29:12,289 --> 01:29:13,449
because it's out in the binocular.

1006
01:29:14,009 --> 01:29:15,389
You know, everybody says it.

1007
01:29:15,669 --> 01:29:17,629
You scroll through your tweets and you'll be like,

1008
01:29:17,669 --> 01:29:19,349
the money's broken, this and that.

1009
01:29:19,849 --> 01:29:21,749
But they say it's broken and we need to fix it.

1010
01:29:21,809 --> 01:29:24,929
It's like, okay, well, what do we mean by that?

1011
01:29:24,929 --> 01:29:27,909
And like, how about let's not surrender the moral high ground?

1012
01:29:28,269 --> 01:29:31,429
Because if we keep, if we put it into this like,

1013
01:29:31,429 --> 01:29:38,309
oh, it's just a technical problem. We can solve it. That actually lets our opponents off the hook.

1014
01:29:40,249 --> 01:29:49,329
Morally, they have to justify debasement. Hey, Mr. Politician, why did we hand the keys to the

1015
01:29:49,329 --> 01:29:54,969
central bank? Hey, central bank, who are you to debate, to print the money? Who are you? Are you

1016
01:29:54,969 --> 01:30:01,209
not just a human being like me? Are you some God? What are you? Make them make that case.

1017
01:30:01,429 --> 01:30:04,529
Make them justify why they're debasing the money.

1018
01:30:05,089 --> 01:30:08,209
You know, like, because we win that battle.

1019
01:30:08,469 --> 01:30:09,849
Hey, justify enslavement.

1020
01:30:10,549 --> 01:30:12,209
You know, you can't do it.

1021
01:30:12,249 --> 01:30:14,989
Like you win that fight 100 times out of 100.

1022
01:30:15,329 --> 01:30:18,229
So it's just like, why don't we play to our strengths?

1023
01:30:18,229 --> 01:30:23,009
You know, as a tactician in the military, you would never abandon the high ground.

1024
01:30:23,969 --> 01:30:29,749
You know, when you're planning an engagement, you're looking at the terrain and you're trying

1025
01:30:29,749 --> 01:30:35,589
to create the biggest asymmetrical advantage for yourself. Like I would never walk off the high

1026
01:30:35,589 --> 01:30:41,549
ground and then go meet my opponent on level footing. Like that's just, that's dumb. You know,

1027
01:30:41,549 --> 01:30:48,669
like I don't want to, to do a 12, 12 round boxing match that we win by decision. I just want to

1028
01:30:48,669 --> 01:30:55,289
knock you out in the first round like that. And the justified debasement question is that like,

1029
01:30:55,289 --> 01:31:03,229
So, you know, in a weird way, I'm asking people to sacrifice the macro for the moral.

1030
01:31:04,089 --> 01:31:13,189
You know, I go on Twitter spaces, I look on Twitter, and I think people, if macro is what got you to Bitcoin, I'm all for it.

1031
01:31:13,529 --> 01:31:14,549
Like, there is that angle.

1032
01:31:14,609 --> 01:31:15,669
I don't care how you get to Bitcoin.

1033
01:31:16,489 --> 01:31:22,369
But oftentimes, when people are talking about charts and all this stuff, it's like, look how smart I am.

1034
01:31:22,369 --> 01:31:25,089
You know, it's not about actually being effective.

1035
01:31:25,289 --> 01:31:29,089
It's not about how do you convince the people that don't get it?

1036
01:31:29,229 --> 01:31:34,489
You know, like, I guess my hypothesis is everybody that could have gotten Bitcoin through the

1037
01:31:34,489 --> 01:31:36,029
macro has already got it.

1038
01:31:36,489 --> 01:31:39,349
So let's stop beating the dead horse.

1039
01:31:39,529 --> 01:31:43,909
You know, let's go to meet the people where they're at, the people that need it the most,

1040
01:31:44,029 --> 01:31:46,609
you know, the people that don't understand all this stuff.

1041
01:31:46,809 --> 01:31:51,769
Like, how do we talk to them in a way that they can understand what's going on before

1042
01:31:51,769 --> 01:31:52,109
them?

1043
01:31:52,369 --> 01:31:55,189
Because they're important to bringing them into the fold.

1044
01:31:55,289 --> 01:32:00,049
getting them into this fight like that's how we take down central banking that's how we do it we

1045
01:32:00,049 --> 01:32:07,289
need everybody to to come on board with this so i don't know that's i mean you're not day trading

1046
01:32:07,289 --> 01:32:13,269
the m nav neil i mean come on that's what i am not to do isn't it i mean came for the came for

1047
01:32:13,269 --> 01:32:19,249
the austrian economics and philosophy and state the day trade the m nav bro like what the fuck

1048
01:32:19,249 --> 01:32:26,109
is going on i just don't know and bitcoin per share all of this new freaking vernacular that's

1049
01:32:26,109 --> 01:32:33,649
being thrown around just to like woo wall street in a little bit more and it uh it's and all now we

1050
01:32:33,649 --> 01:32:40,709
have derivatives all over all over bitcoin and um because wall street shuts down at weekends

1051
01:32:40,709 --> 01:32:46,869
you know that there's a market gap on a monday morning when all the order books are coming in

1052
01:32:46,869 --> 01:32:50,149
trying to catch up because Bitcoin trades 24-7.

1053
01:32:51,609 --> 01:32:52,769
It's just wild.

1054
01:32:53,289 --> 01:32:56,169
And to your point about communicating value,

1055
01:32:56,249 --> 01:32:57,989
I had this discussion the other day with,

1056
01:32:58,329 --> 01:33:01,789
we've made friends with our local beef farmer here,

1057
01:33:02,169 --> 01:33:04,769
grass-fed beef, and we can just buy direct from him.

1058
01:33:04,909 --> 01:33:05,449
And that's great.

1059
01:33:05,629 --> 01:33:09,709
And I've been, I give him cash and I tell him like,

1060
01:33:10,309 --> 01:33:11,929
this doesn't feel right.

1061
01:33:12,149 --> 01:33:14,429
This is not a fair exchange.

1062
01:33:14,649 --> 01:33:16,329
You have worked so hard.

1063
01:33:16,869 --> 01:33:21,289
And you've put so much love, energy and care into that animal.

1064
01:33:21,449 --> 01:33:23,169
And I know what that animal meant to you.

1065
01:33:23,229 --> 01:33:32,369
And I know what it's going to mean to me and my family and how it's going to give us nutrition and sit around, enjoy the meal and whatever else.

1066
01:33:32,369 --> 01:33:38,729
And I'm handing you debt discharging instruments as payment.

1067
01:33:39,609 --> 01:33:43,989
That doesn't feel morally or philosophically right to me.

1068
01:33:44,249 --> 01:33:44,869
I would...

1069
01:33:44,921 --> 01:33:52,381
much rather pay you in the best money that humanity has ever discovered and start moving

1070
01:33:52,381 --> 01:33:58,061
forward and communicating like this value across space and time and across like the rest of the

1071
01:33:58,061 --> 01:34:06,281
community. But it's a slow, slow creep, people. Keep at it. That's all I'll keep saying. Just

1072
01:34:06,281 --> 01:34:11,681
keep at it. Just keep delivering the touch points. I think that a good litmus test, you know,

1073
01:34:11,681 --> 01:34:19,401
to ask every Bitcoiner, do you care more about million dollar Bitcoin or onboarding a million

1074
01:34:19,401 --> 01:34:23,421
new families? You know, I think the answer to that question-

1075
01:34:23,421 --> 01:34:24,921
Number of people go up, Neil. That's the metric.

1076
01:34:25,421 --> 01:34:26,321
That is the metric.

1077
01:34:26,561 --> 01:34:29,561
Not number go up. Number of people go up. That's all that matters.

1078
01:34:30,201 --> 01:34:34,581
Because like how you answer that question will tell you whether or not you're looking in the

1079
01:34:34,581 --> 01:34:39,681
right direction or not. And in a weird way too, you know, it's like the whole node.

1080
01:34:39,681 --> 01:34:44,201
I have a hard time believing that we only have 20,000 some nodes.

1081
01:34:44,781 --> 01:34:49,981
You know, like if you onboard a million families and you tell them, hey, this is how you become sovereign.

1082
01:34:50,081 --> 01:34:53,201
This is how you protect yourself from debasement.

1083
01:34:54,201 --> 01:35:00,141
You know, get the Bitcoin, run your node, do whatever, like home mine, whatever, like be an active.

1084
01:35:00,141 --> 01:35:09,301
Like if you teach people how to actually use Bitcoin in the way that protects them, like add a million nodes, you know,

1085
01:35:09,301 --> 01:35:17,021
like that then it dilutes the the whole like who cares if one person's running this or that like

1086
01:35:17,021 --> 01:35:24,761
you got a million more nodes you know like to me that kind of just like it doesn't make the

1087
01:35:24,761 --> 01:35:29,881
i i like the friction i think it's good to have pushback and like because that's what

1088
01:35:29,881 --> 01:35:36,881
i mean that's what this this that's what bitcoin is you know consensus people working through ideas

1089
01:35:36,881 --> 01:35:40,181
Like, I think this, but I think that like, and pushing on each other.

1090
01:35:40,181 --> 01:35:42,021
And like, I think that's all healthy and good.

1091
01:35:43,581 --> 01:35:48,221
But like what one person says shouldn't really matter that much, you know?

1092
01:35:48,221 --> 01:35:54,041
And if you 20 X, 50 X, a hundred X, the amount of nodes, you know, like it doesn't really

1093
01:35:54,041 --> 01:35:59,761
like each individual node doesn't really matter as much in that sense of like, what is the

1094
01:35:59,761 --> 01:36:04,661
actual consensus and what, like, and in a weird way, it gives everybody more of, so it's

1095
01:36:04,661 --> 01:36:08,941
like it's diminutive, but it's also makes you more important because you're like, hey, I am

1096
01:36:08,941 --> 01:36:15,281
actually, you know, contributing to this. I don't know. It's kind of a kind of a weird thing. But I

1097
01:36:15,281 --> 01:36:19,681
just I think the more people, the better, you know, like that's that's what I'm focused on.

1098
01:36:19,681 --> 01:36:24,241
And that's why I wrote this book. And that's why I'm like, I'm not a real public person. I don't

1099
01:36:24,241 --> 01:36:29,781
like being out and doing stuff like that. But this is the fight. And, you know, to be a leader,

1100
01:36:29,781 --> 01:36:34,821
you have to actually get in front of people and you have to sacrifice a little bit of privacy

1101
01:36:34,821 --> 01:36:42,041
to be seen to be heard and uh you know those are risks that i'm i'm think are well worth it so

1102
01:36:42,041 --> 01:36:48,701
yeah for sure and with you on the notes yeah more notes and hopefully if anything that's going on

1103
01:36:48,701 --> 01:36:55,321
right now this this whole debate that's been going on for like almost three years at this point uh

1104
01:36:55,321 --> 01:36:57,721
like February 2023 was when it really started.

1105
01:36:57,961 --> 01:36:58,941
So two and a half years,

1106
01:36:59,421 --> 01:37:00,881
that's when it started in earnest.

1107
01:37:01,301 --> 01:37:03,881
But like heating up now to the,

1108
01:37:04,241 --> 01:37:08,561
coming up to October when you're going to release version 30.

1109
01:37:09,381 --> 01:37:15,241
Yeah, I'm, again, regardless of what software people run,

1110
01:37:16,701 --> 01:37:20,441
we're always accused in a Bitcoin space of,

1111
01:37:20,441 --> 01:37:22,901
yeah, you fucking guys, you just live in an echo chamber.

1112
01:37:22,901 --> 01:37:31,181
what really bring an opinion and i want to see it put it on twitter see what happens

1113
01:37:31,181 --> 01:37:37,861
it's the loudest echo chamber i've ever heard and it shouts back opposing opinions pretty much

1114
01:37:37,861 --> 01:37:47,281
every single time so it is that does build a healthy ecosystem um yes you have far edges of

1115
01:37:47,281 --> 01:37:57,561
it where people can be you know very hurtful vitriolic and uh you know unhinged to to to say

1116
01:37:57,561 --> 01:38:05,461
the least but it is a debate that needed to happen and it is happening and goodness knows where we'll

1117
01:38:05,461 --> 01:38:10,941
be in two years time uh but anyway that's enough of that i wanted to get on to the last thing about

1118
01:38:10,941 --> 01:38:18,561
But you kind of touched on it earlier about people do engage with politicians.

1119
01:38:18,961 --> 01:38:21,501
Again, I find that, you know, that's not for me.

1120
01:38:21,501 --> 01:38:40,501
I cannot go and engage with those people in good faith because I just know, like, the whole system behind it, how rotten that is and how that's orchestrated and how you have the invisible hand, whether you call them the lobbyists or the internationalists.

1121
01:38:40,941 --> 01:38:46,501
elite, whatever, it doesn't matter. There's a layer there that none of us have ever been exposed

1122
01:38:46,501 --> 01:38:51,141
to or can put our finger on. And there's stuff going on behind the scenes. And the people that

1123
01:38:51,141 --> 01:38:58,901
we think are in charge certainly are not in charge. And to go and debate them in any way,

1124
01:38:59,381 --> 01:39:05,041
I just find a huge waste of my time and energy. Other people will push back and say, well,

1125
01:39:05,041 --> 01:39:10,361
they're the very people that we need to change and blah, blah, blah, and push for regulations.

1126
01:39:10,361 --> 01:39:13,821
And again, we're not here for regulations, right?

1127
01:39:13,841 --> 01:39:20,881
We're here for natural law and to build a whole new world on a sound money, a good money standard.

1128
01:39:21,921 --> 01:39:24,301
You literally got good versus bad there, right?

1129
01:39:24,341 --> 01:39:25,841
You've got good money, bad money.

1130
01:39:26,321 --> 01:39:27,121
Fiat money is bad.

1131
01:39:27,901 --> 01:39:28,561
Bitcoin is good.

1132
01:39:29,121 --> 01:39:35,301
So people can read religious kind of connotations into that as well, good versus evil.

1133
01:39:35,301 --> 01:39:38,881
so with the questions that you have

1134
01:39:38,881 --> 01:39:41,041
that you said like if you're going to go face down

1135
01:39:41,041 --> 01:39:43,121
a politician let's say you're at your local

1136
01:39:43,121 --> 01:39:44,301
town hall or you want

1137
01:39:44,301 --> 01:39:47,201
everybody can see you falling across the floor

1138
01:39:47,201 --> 01:39:47,521
there

1139
01:39:47,521 --> 01:39:56,201
you just stand up now

1140
01:39:56,201 --> 01:40:01,281
there'll be no edits listeners

1141
01:40:01,281 --> 01:40:02,681
so

1142
01:40:02,681 --> 01:40:05,641
So you've got a list of questions here.

1143
01:40:06,601 --> 01:40:20,984
Have you ever tweeted them your list of questions to like the political class Because if not I love for you to do it and i certainly retweet it and and hopefully get people thinking about it but so it actually funny my my tasks

1144
01:40:20,984 --> 01:40:27,004
what i did once i published the book was i tweeted at every single house representative and senator

1145
01:40:27,004 --> 01:40:37,004
uh trump vance like everyone i'm just a nobody but i tweeted at every single one of the american

1146
01:40:37,004 --> 01:40:45,944
politicians all of our officials and ask them essentially in some way shape or form hey justify

1147
01:40:45,944 --> 01:40:52,964
debasement um and it's really weird i had to vary up the the question so uh x didn't like think i

1148
01:40:52,964 --> 01:40:59,284
was a bot and all that so it's just like you know but the the idea is this like i'm i'm one person

1149
01:40:59,284 --> 01:41:04,944
and no one responded all right and i didn't i i knew no one would i knew i would be brushed away

1150
01:41:04,944 --> 01:41:11,104
But I wanted to at least say and show like I can put it to you.

1151
01:41:11,384 --> 01:41:13,364
I will put that question to you.

1152
01:41:13,664 --> 01:41:15,604
You are supposed to be representing me.

1153
01:41:16,384 --> 01:41:19,944
Justify these things and you can push me aside.

1154
01:41:20,264 --> 01:41:20,884
That's fine.

1155
01:41:21,484 --> 01:41:29,504
But when enough people ask these questions, you know, you can't push us all away.

1156
01:41:30,244 --> 01:41:34,924
And that's what I think wakes people up the most when they like everyone assumes.

1157
01:41:34,944 --> 01:41:37,404
that the government has my best interests at heart.

1158
01:41:37,764 --> 01:41:41,084
And it's like, that's not true at all, but it should be.

1159
01:41:41,604 --> 01:41:44,024
And it goes back to this idea,

1160
01:41:44,184 --> 01:41:47,644
like there is a dynamic relationship,

1161
01:41:47,804 --> 01:41:51,504
a necessary relation between individuals and the collective.

1162
01:41:52,284 --> 01:41:54,364
And we actually can't exist.

1163
01:41:54,964 --> 01:41:58,624
Like individuals don't exist, you know, without social connection.

1164
01:41:58,684 --> 01:42:02,924
Like we're social creatures and we exist in reality together,

1165
01:42:02,924 --> 01:42:09,144
which is uh i didn't choose to do i didn't choose to exist now and neither did you uh so those are

1166
01:42:09,144 --> 01:42:16,284
in a sense non-voluntary relations that we exist in reality together uh even though we can choose

1167
01:42:16,284 --> 01:42:23,044
to talk and all that but like we exist in reality together um so it's like we have to mediate that

1168
01:42:23,044 --> 01:42:28,484
you know and and some of us are stronger and more powerful than others you know adults are more

1169
01:42:28,484 --> 01:42:34,724
powerful than children. So again, like society's task is to mediate those dynamics and, uh,

1170
01:42:35,884 --> 01:42:41,304
starting from your family is important. You know, how you lead your kid, like what you're doing with

1171
01:42:41,304 --> 01:42:48,044
your children is amazing. And as a, an exemplary, uh, example or whatever, uh, for people to look

1172
01:42:48,044 --> 01:42:52,144
at and say like, look, you can raise your children up in this and you don't have to push them,

1173
01:42:52,224 --> 01:42:56,044
you know, like they have inquisitive minds and they want to learn about the world, like

1174
01:42:56,044 --> 01:43:02,684
teach them teach them how to be uh like start with your family and then you know those as we

1175
01:43:02,684 --> 01:43:08,124
go bigger and bigger layers you know of your community your neighbors your local municipalities

1176
01:43:08,124 --> 01:43:14,664
like those are opportunities for leadership too and there's nothing stopping you know uh a city

1177
01:43:14,664 --> 01:43:21,504
from saying like wait what okay we're individually protecting ourselves from debasement but like what

1178
01:43:21,504 --> 01:43:26,764
do we want to do collectively? Like this city, like we can, we can move ourselves to a Bitcoin

1179
01:43:26,764 --> 01:43:31,744
standard. We can do these other, like we can grow this up. Like that's how grassroots things happen.

1180
01:43:32,264 --> 01:43:36,944
And, you know, Hey, in, in America, at least, you know, those cities and those counties and the

1181
01:43:36,944 --> 01:43:43,184
state, like you can make that happen. You can generate momentum. And it's like, when the,

1182
01:43:43,184 --> 01:43:48,484
since we do exist in that reality, what I think is really cool is so number, number go up might

1183
01:43:48,484 --> 01:43:55,664
catch people's eyes, but prosperity and abundance catches people's eyes too. You know, if you get a

1184
01:43:55,664 --> 01:44:01,724
group of people living on a Bitcoin standard, working together, creating abundance, having

1185
01:44:01,724 --> 01:44:07,244
families and life and filling their lives full of meaning, like, and you're sitting over here in like

1186
01:44:07,244 --> 01:44:12,564
fiat land where you're just getting hollowed out and you feel empty. You're like, what are they

1187
01:44:12,564 --> 01:44:17,724
doing over there? You know, and we're sitting here saying, hey, the water's warm. Come on. Like,

1188
01:44:17,724 --> 01:44:19,664
Like, like that's how that can happen.

1189
01:44:19,764 --> 01:44:21,344
Like it, I have hope.

1190
01:44:21,524 --> 01:44:27,864
Like, do I think it's likely that we can save or fix the entire political structure to make

1191
01:44:27,864 --> 01:44:33,204
it, you know, like, I don't know, but I know in principle that it could happen.

1192
01:44:33,204 --> 01:44:40,344
You know, the principles are aligned so that at least people can like assert themselves.

1193
01:44:40,504 --> 01:44:42,044
Like you are really powerful.

1194
01:44:42,284 --> 01:44:46,724
Like being a human being, being a moral agent is, is very powerful.

1195
01:44:46,724 --> 01:44:52,924
like you're not this diminished husk of a of a of a man like you you you can assert yourself and

1196
01:44:52,924 --> 01:44:59,164
stand for something and uh i think that that is contagious you know like we see this with the

1197
01:44:59,164 --> 01:45:03,624
bitcoin community like people saying oh i'm full of meaning and it activates me and i go do and i

1198
01:45:03,624 --> 01:45:09,184
start building all this stuff and it's like when we build the life that attracts people to want to

1199
01:45:09,184 --> 01:45:16,144
come and build to like i i think that's how this thing takes off you know i'm gonna read i'm gonna

1200
01:45:16,144 --> 01:45:22,244
read the list of questions, but the quick paragraph before it, for those people that are

1201
01:45:22,244 --> 01:45:26,344
getting inspired and they do want to tweet at their politicians or send emails or whatever,

1202
01:45:26,924 --> 01:45:33,204
you've got a great little template here. So forget party lines, forget red and blue,

1203
01:45:33,524 --> 01:45:37,964
forget hollow promises, rehearsed soundbites and a polished deceit of career politicians.

1204
01:45:38,504 --> 01:45:44,524
If they cannot answer the bell, they are unworthy of our support, our votes and our attention.

1205
01:45:44,524 --> 01:45:53,104
If they dodge, deflect or regurgitate the same tired economic platitudes, they reveal themselves what they are, complicit.

1206
01:45:53,924 --> 01:45:59,204
The fundamental truth is not complicated. Our politicians are no better than us.

1207
01:45:59,764 --> 01:46:02,844
They owe us answers. And here's the list of questions.

1208
01:46:03,284 --> 01:46:07,664
Listeners, jot these down. You can just fire this off straight at them.

1209
01:46:08,184 --> 01:46:12,384
How do they justify blind trust in unelected bureaucrats?

1210
01:46:12,384 --> 01:46:51,147
How do they defend the invalid logic of debt money How do they explain the fraud of fractional reserve banking How do they justify usury against their people How do they rationalize the need for non dollars Who are they to debase our money Who are they to enslave us Who are they to enslave our children Why should we tolerate an unjust monetary system I mean fire those off to Christine Lagarde guys See if she gets back to you because she won Or Augustin Carstens at the

1211
01:46:51,147 --> 01:46:56,407
BIS. You think he's going to get back to you? No. These people are so far gone. But if you want to

1212
01:46:56,407 --> 01:47:02,547
go grassroots, take that list of questions to your town hall and just even print it out and hand it

1213
01:47:02,547 --> 01:47:10,407
around to everybody that walks in and then ask them stand up at the mic and if that's if if you

1214
01:47:10,407 --> 01:47:18,927
feel empowered to go and do that neil here has given you like the it's perfect yeah like in the

1215
01:47:18,927 --> 01:47:23,667
military you know leaders are held accountable you know you make decisions you're held accountable

1216
01:47:23,667 --> 01:47:30,427
and when you know what those questions do is they make the m they make the implicit explicit

1217
01:47:30,427 --> 01:47:36,807
it, they have answers to those questions. They just won't say it to you. And when you ask them

1218
01:47:36,807 --> 01:47:44,027
that, you get, you get a, you, you know, they'll either recognize like, I don't know this. I need

1219
01:47:44,027 --> 01:47:48,947
to figure it out. Those are good points. Or like they can answer it in that way, or they'll answer

1220
01:47:48,947 --> 01:47:55,667
it like, Oh, uh, blah, blah, blah. I I'm just slipping around, you know, paint them in the

1221
01:47:55,667 --> 01:48:00,987
corner, you know, you paint a leader in the corner. And because a leader really should,

1222
01:48:01,227 --> 01:48:06,847
a good leader doesn't need to be painted in the corner. They actually are accountable to you

1223
01:48:06,847 --> 01:48:14,027
up front, you know, but we don't live in that system. So I don't know. I don't place my faith

1224
01:48:14,027 --> 01:48:21,787
in like, you know, in any particular people, any particular man. But I think I have faith

1225
01:48:21,787 --> 01:48:28,287
in us as a people, like the abstract people, like we are human beings and we can see these things.

1226
01:48:28,287 --> 01:48:37,227
And like, uh, the, the idea that you don't have to fight, you know, for what's right is not like

1227
01:48:37,227 --> 01:48:43,107
that, that has not born history at all. You know, it's constantly, you know, a struggle to,

1228
01:48:43,167 --> 01:48:49,547
to stand up and to, uh, protect, you know, and, and live the values that you want to live. Um,

1229
01:48:49,547 --> 01:48:54,187
That idea of living for something greater than yourself is really powerful.

1230
01:48:56,007 --> 01:49:05,187
That's kind of like that whole dynamic of the speculative, my life's meaningless, so I might as well gamble it away because it doesn't matter at the end of the day.

1231
01:49:05,747 --> 01:49:12,467
It's like, well, no, your life actually has great significance and your actions impact not only you, but others.

1232
01:49:12,467 --> 01:49:22,307
And I think that's what makes the family actualize people a lot because they realize like, oh, my actions impact my children.

1233
01:49:22,507 --> 01:49:24,127
My actions impact my spouse.

1234
01:49:24,567 --> 01:49:27,967
My actions impact my community and my children's friends.

1235
01:49:28,207 --> 01:49:30,747
And Bitcoin, it does that.

1236
01:49:30,927 --> 01:49:34,147
Your actions as a node runner impact the community.

1237
01:49:34,447 --> 01:49:39,847
Your actions as a user, as a holder, as a stacker impact the community.

1238
01:49:39,847 --> 01:49:45,647
like and that just makes you something so much more like it actualizes all that latent potential

1239
01:49:45,647 --> 01:49:52,407
that is inside you right now and uh i don't know i just you know i'm well we don't need the

1240
01:49:52,407 --> 01:49:57,547
politicians but i think you know you got to hold them to account one way or the other and because

1241
01:49:57,547 --> 01:50:04,827
like uh we uh well we didn't even touch on the family but um you know we know that the the attack

1242
01:50:04,827 --> 01:50:09,487
on the family comes from you know different fronts obviously the monetary system is one of

1243
01:50:09,487 --> 01:50:15,827
them taxation is another pushing both parents out into work and uh like the constant worry about

1244
01:50:15,827 --> 01:50:22,007
money is always at the forefront of every family's mind so you can't think soundly you can't spend as

1245
01:50:22,007 --> 01:50:27,307
much time with each other as possible uh seb bunny does a great job in his book the healing cost of

1246
01:50:27,307 --> 01:50:33,427
money going into all of that it's um so if people have been and i should say the education system is

1247
01:50:33,427 --> 01:50:38,147
an attack on the family as well taking children away from the family from as young as you possibly

1248
01:50:38,147 --> 01:50:44,307
can into state indoctrination camps. Let's call them what they are. So yeah, we're up against it.

1249
01:50:44,307 --> 01:50:50,007
But I want to leave it on a positive note. You know, I think we both share a faith in the human

1250
01:50:50,007 --> 01:50:56,607
spirit. And we we know, you know, there's something much bigger at play here, rather than just,

1251
01:50:56,607 --> 01:51:02,027
you know, stacking as much Bitcoin as you possibly can for your Lambos. Like that, that's,

1252
01:51:02,027 --> 01:51:10,047
that's not what anybody's here to do and you know think think much deeper um about the questions that

1253
01:51:10,047 --> 01:51:15,027
that you raised there that we just went through and you know i've got to throw the the final

1254
01:51:15,027 --> 01:51:20,247
question at you and if you had one last orange pill left to give to somebody who would you give

1255
01:51:20,247 --> 01:51:28,667
it to and why oh my i don't know one one orange pill to give

1256
01:51:28,667 --> 01:51:37,127
I don't know who the most influential person in the world would be but that that would be the

1257
01:51:37,127 --> 01:51:41,667
the print the principle would be I would want to give it to the most the most whoever had the most

1258
01:51:41,667 --> 01:51:47,927
reach the most connection so I don't know maybe that's like a pope I don't know like even non

1259
01:51:47,927 --> 01:51:55,547
non-catholic people know who the pope is like I don't know I I wouldn't give it to the president

1260
01:51:55,547 --> 01:52:02,387
I wouldn't give it to Trump because he's not as influential as we would like to think,

1261
01:52:02,767 --> 01:52:04,147
or at least as he would like to think.

1262
01:52:04,367 --> 01:52:09,507
Like all those other, like it would be somebody kind of on the outside that connects and touches all.

1263
01:52:10,147 --> 01:52:14,947
But I mean, people in South America, Africa, Asia, everywhere, they know the Pope.

1264
01:52:15,067 --> 01:52:16,007
They might not know Trump.

1265
01:52:16,787 --> 01:52:18,207
So maybe him.

1266
01:52:18,407 --> 01:52:18,887
I don't know.

1267
01:52:19,407 --> 01:52:19,847
All right.

1268
01:52:20,027 --> 01:52:20,347
Cool.

1269
01:52:20,507 --> 01:52:22,247
Well, there's no wrong answer, my friend.

1270
01:52:22,327 --> 01:52:22,847
So don't worry.

1271
01:52:22,927 --> 01:52:23,607
Don't sweat it.

1272
01:52:24,207 --> 01:52:25,287
Really appreciate it.

1273
01:52:25,287 --> 01:52:34,187
important thing is that you take it as an individual yes yeah exactly neil modern chains

1274
01:52:34,187 --> 01:52:39,047
uh where can people find the book what's the best way to interact with you and will you be

1275
01:52:39,047 --> 01:52:44,327
give us the handoff are you going to be on any other podcast people can go check you out and

1276
01:52:44,327 --> 01:52:52,307
uh will you be at any conferences giving speeches what what's what's next um so anything and

1277
01:52:52,307 --> 01:52:55,147
everything that I do is just going to be at modern chains.com.

1278
01:52:56,147 --> 01:53:01,267
It that that'll have links to, to the book. You can contact me too.

1279
01:53:01,267 --> 01:53:19,431
I don have it set up yet to where like through through any service that you can get the book with Bitcoin But if you message me I will hook you up and we make it happen I go out of my way to help anybody make a transaction

1280
01:53:20,471 --> 01:53:26,371
you know, value for value. I'll do anything to make that happen. So if someone's interested in

1281
01:53:26,371 --> 01:53:32,091
that, just hit me up and I will make it work. But, you know, I mean, I've done a couple podcasts,

1282
01:53:32,091 --> 01:53:39,291
the Robert Breedlove he was the the first thing that I did and like uh I was really uh really

1283
01:53:39,291 --> 01:53:44,831
grateful to to have that opportunity um because like when you just come out on the scene from

1284
01:53:44,831 --> 01:53:51,871
literally a nobody you know it's like I I don't have a platform but I have a message and I want to

1285
01:53:51,871 --> 01:53:57,731
to like I'm not important but the message is um so it's just like pushing that message I'll talk

1286
01:53:57,731 --> 01:54:03,071
I will talk to anybody. I will do anything just to help get this message out because I think it's that important.

1287
01:54:04,631 --> 01:54:10,951
I went to our little local Bitcoin meetup and gave a speech there.

1288
01:54:11,131 --> 01:54:16,511
And that might be on the it's probably the most it's probably the most me.

1289
01:54:16,871 --> 01:54:19,851
You know, like I'm not really a fire from the hip type of guy.

1290
01:54:19,851 --> 01:54:27,991
I really like precision and making the logic and the principles and getting all my ducks lined up before sending it out.

1291
01:54:28,791 --> 01:54:38,991
And the speech was kind of what I was able to do that and condense the entire message in a really impassioned, rhetorically powerful and simple to that.

1292
01:54:39,051 --> 01:54:43,451
Like my whole thing is I'm trying to make everything easily digestible for anybody.

1293
01:54:43,991 --> 01:54:47,691
I don't want to use jargon if I can help it.

1294
01:54:47,691 --> 01:54:58,851
I don't want to use technical language if I can help it. I want it just like anybody can understand because, you know, moral recognition is greater than economic calculation.

1295
01:54:59,391 --> 01:55:06,031
You know, we like if I ask you to pick out, you know, your mother's face in a lineup, you don't think about it.

1296
01:55:06,491 --> 01:55:10,711
You just know that that's mom, you know, and that's what I want people.

1297
01:55:10,711 --> 01:55:15,771
I want to leverage that recognition so that people can just say Bitcoin.

1298
01:55:15,771 --> 01:55:23,751
there you go um so yeah i don't know i'm i'm here for the fight and i don't i don't i don't care what

1299
01:55:23,751 --> 01:55:30,071
what what form it takes uh or how bad i get whacked down um that's what i'm here for so thank

1300
01:55:30,071 --> 01:55:36,331
you thank you for having me yeah my place uh thanks for coming on thanks for everything that

1301
01:55:36,331 --> 01:55:42,071
uh you've done for bitcoin and uh we'll continue to do i'm pretty sure you're gonna hit the podcast

1302
01:55:42,071 --> 01:55:47,791
scene and just get this message out to as many people as possible and uh yeah thanks for coming

1303
01:55:47,791 --> 01:55:54,791
on really appreciate it thanks for having me well there you go guys thank you so much for listening

1304
01:55:54,791 --> 01:56:00,511
and thank you again neil for coming on we went down some rabbit holes there i think like the

1305
01:56:00,511 --> 01:56:06,611
most difficult one we tried to tackle was uh usury uh this one is quite

1306
01:56:06,611 --> 01:56:16,491
people get a little bit caught up on it because uh you know in true in a true capitalist market

1307
01:56:16,491 --> 01:56:23,351
and a free capital market where actual capital is being used and loaned out and you've got skin in

1308
01:56:23,351 --> 01:56:28,711
the game as the loaner uh yeah there would be an interest rate on that but it wouldn't be controlled

1309
01:56:28,711 --> 01:56:33,371
it wouldn't be chosen by someone else it would be down to you and you would be able to look at

1310
01:56:33,371 --> 01:56:38,951
the the the free market interest rates uh around you like what are your peers doing

1311
01:56:38,951 --> 01:56:44,891
what are other companies doing and other founders and entrepreneurs and deals that are being cut

1312
01:56:44,891 --> 01:56:49,671
you'll be able to use whatever information is available to you at that time to come to some

1313
01:56:49,671 --> 01:56:58,151
agreement privately not wait for for somebody to tell you what the interest rate is going to be

1314
01:56:58,151 --> 01:57:05,551
And not only that, as we discussed here, everything is under coercion in its current state.

1315
01:57:06,131 --> 01:57:12,171
Nobody signed up to be part of this monetary order that we find ourselves under,

1316
01:57:12,311 --> 01:57:17,331
all of these policies and rule changes and whatever else.

1317
01:57:17,331 --> 01:57:34,651
So you have coercion at play and that completely negates any kind of free thought or open market.

1318
01:57:34,651 --> 01:57:39,951
It just doesn't exist because everything is built on this foundation of pure bullshit.

1319
01:57:39,951 --> 01:57:49,291
it and finally uh you know the the money the money's coming out of nowhere as neil and i were

1320
01:57:49,291 --> 01:57:56,451
discussing it's coming out of nowhere like you go in and you get a a loan for a new car that money

1321
01:57:56,451 --> 01:58:04,511
is just turns up in your bank account like the bank is legally allowed to do that legally not

1322
01:58:04,511 --> 01:58:11,331
lawfully that's where people get tripped up they're legally allowed to do it under the jurisdiction

1323
01:58:11,331 --> 01:58:21,211
of that set of rules but it's not lawful and that's why it's usury because the money didn't

1324
01:58:21,211 --> 01:58:27,091
exist in the first place there was no energy tied to that money at all even if you've got half percent

1325
01:58:27,091 --> 01:58:33,331
on this incredible loan deal you think you've got it's usurious it's criminal it's disgusting

1326
01:58:33,331 --> 01:58:37,811
it's vile there's no other word for it because the money didn't exist

1327
01:58:37,811 --> 01:58:43,851
and that person that under is underwriting that loan is just just

1328
01:58:43,851 --> 01:58:49,911
they're just getting money for nothing out of you because you're the one spending the time and the

1329
01:58:49,911 --> 01:58:55,971
energy uh so yeah i i hope this one hits home thanks again neil for coming on please support

1330
01:58:55,971 --> 01:59:01,231
the show sponsors you got relay you can stack your sats with across europe r-e-l-a-i dot c-h

1331
01:59:01,231 --> 01:59:05,551
paywithflash.com get over there and check them out you can start accepting bitcoin

1332
01:59:05,551 --> 01:59:11,771
please take self-custody very seriously get over and get the bitbox02 and come join us on orange

1333
01:59:11,771 --> 01:59:16,351
pill app i shield the conferences at the beginning of the show but if you've never been to a conference

1334
01:59:16,351 --> 01:59:23,851
it's a life-changing honestly it's a life-changing momentous occasion being in front and around a

1335
01:59:23,851 --> 01:59:28,871
bunch of other bitcoiners so there's a bunch of local events you don't need to do the big

1336
01:59:28,871 --> 01:59:33,371
international ones anymore there's a lot of local events popping up so yeah Orange Pill App will

1337
01:59:33,371 --> 01:59:36,251
have all that information for you so get over there hit the link in the show notes

1338
01:59:36,251 --> 01:59:39,551
catch on the next show thank you so much for listening