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Hello, everybody. My name is Daniel Prince, and I'm the host of the Once Bitten podcast.

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This is a podcast focused on Bitcoin. It's my mission to interview as many people as I can

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around the different aspects of Bitcoin and help people understand exactly what Bitcoin

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could mean for them and for their families and for their future. I hope you enjoy the show.

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Thank you so much for listening.

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many years of their lives have been going deep deep deep down the rabbit hole of the claim that

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Craig Wright made to be Satoshi. They followed the story very closely and have been documenting

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everything for years. This book is the first of three. This is how deep this story goes.

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They take it all the way back and they really do not leave anything unturned. I'm really looking

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forward to getting my hands on the book it's only just dropped and we recorded this about a month

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ago so get out there get over to um what first of all connect with the authors once you've listened

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to this and find out where to best buy the book and how to best support them uh right before we

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get into the interview please make sure you're showing some support to the show sponsors uh relay

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are the place for you to go and start stacking your sats.

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That's R-E-L-A-I dot C-H forward slash bitten.

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You can be stacking sats within a few minutes.

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Make sure you are self-custodying your Bitcoin as well.

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That is all done within the app, within Relay.

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You will be given your own C phrase, your own 12 words

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to create your own wallet and be in self-custody of your Bitcoin.

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If you want to up your Bitcoin hardware wallet game,

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the Bitcoin excuse me the Bitbox Nova has just dropped that's bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten

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you can go and get your hands on the brand new Nova or put an order in their latest upgrade

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even more security more features from a team that's been around making these devices for 10

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years now so go check them out Bitbox and please take care stack safe self custody your Bitcoin

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across the US you have swanbitcoin.com forward slash bit and you can start stacking sats

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with those guys over there they also have like relay they have a service where you a white glove

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service where you can get directly in touch with the team if you're high net worth individuals or

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if you have businesses that you want to take on to a bitcoin standard they are there to help you so

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go check them out there's no excuses if you want to start spending your stack and supporting

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Bitcoin makers out there. Go check out plebeian.market. And if you're in the US, go and tune

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in to the Nanya Bidness, Dave Bennett, Daily Show, who brings you Bitcoin and, and he's also

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bringing you the Circle P, where you can start spending and supporting the Bitcoin economy.

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It's a great podcast. Dave's been around for many years. He's doing some incredible work. And he's

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been on this podcast twice so you can just go back and listen to those episodes just search

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at none of business and we talked about uh the forest walker project which he uh has and uh

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michael uh arbuscular mycorrhizzo and i'm sure i'm still saying that wrong but anyway they are

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excellent rips thank you dave for everything you're doing on your side of the pond are you

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using paywithflash.com to accept bitcoin for your goods and services it's very easy it's plug and

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play just get over to paywithflash.com did you get to any of the conferences prague was excellent

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riga was excellent helsinki was excellent we've got some coming up in the uk we've got one in

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bitcoin uh very st edmunds and um towards the end of this month 20th of september and the end of

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november manchester you have bit fest and if you want to visit the balkans get over to bulgaria go

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look around sofia and hang out with the plebs over there incredible conference being put together by

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the team over in bulgaria naku 2000's been on the show three or four times he's one of the organizers

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there go follow him and hit the link in the show notes get signed up save yourself 10 on those

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tickets. Find your local Bitcoiners. Orange Pill app is the place for you. You've got to get over

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there. Find your local Bitcoiners. Find your local events. Start connecting with each other.

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We've met a bunch of new people over these last few conferences we've been to and just spent

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some lovely time in France with a couple of other Bitcoiner families. You need to find your tribe.

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finally bubble

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bubbl.fm

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this is the place for you to go and start

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curating your bitcoin

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podcast you can directly

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link into

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the topics that you want to be listening

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to and their technology

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will start scanning the bitcoin

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podcasts and cutting

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out those precise

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topics and build a podcast

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especially for you so get your 40 hours

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per week in and get over

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to bubble.fm b-u-b-b-l.fm meanwhile it's time for you to learn more about fake toshi

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all right guys we are recording nice to meet you both really excited to get into this one and a

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shout out to uh jonathan beer who who put us in touch so we could go down this rabbit hole

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deeper than i've ever gone down it before with two people that have completely uh enwrapped

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themselves with this subject for the last handful of years so we'll get into all of that

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but lauren as is tradition will ask you the first question who is craig wright doctor

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you didn't tell me you just told me a name it's part of the joke don't worry

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we could tell you who he isn't

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yeah

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yeah okay

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he's not the creator of Bitcoin

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we know that for sure

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who he is I mean there's a very

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long answer and a very short answer

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I'll do the short answer

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and Arthur can do the longer answer

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so the short answer is

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he is an IT security guy

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from Australia

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who claims he created Bitcoin

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but did not create Bitcoin

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that is the short answer

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Yeah, he is most known for his failed attempt to become known as the inventor of Bitcoin.

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He started doing that in 2014, but in exactly 10 years later, 2024, he was announced by court in UK that he is not the inventor of Bitcoin.

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The evidence was overwhelming against him.

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And in the meantime, he committed a lot of fraud.

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He created a lot of forgeries.

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He lied a lot.

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and that's why we are now here together talking about this subject because the

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the subject matter is quite substantial so lauren what do you think about that a guy

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told everybody repeatedly told everybody he was satoshi and the creator of bitcoin

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why would someone want to do that do you think that's that's what i was going to say i'm trying

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figure out well why someone would lie that much when there's so much evidence that he's not but

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maybe for more like publicity or like money or i don't know yeah i mean you towards the end of

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this whole process which has been on going on for 10 years now that is how it sort of ended in in a

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way it started with him trying to fool the tax office in australia by using using bitcoin and

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using the name satoshi not not so much the name satoshi but using bitcoin he said he had to to

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get millions of dollars off them uh illegally and in doing that he got himself into an absolute

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pickle and ended up with him facing potentially criminal charges for tax fraud and at the very

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least owing the tax office around i don't know so many arthur may not the exact figure but i forget

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that but millions and millions of dollars about almost 10 million dollars or seven million dollars

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and so he needed a way to try and get himself out of that jam and so he managed to convince

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a very very wealthy guy that he was satoshi and that all this stuff he'd invented was worth

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billions of dollars so he managed to use that lie managed to convince this guy he's a con man

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fraudster he convinced this guy to lend him the money or to give him money to bail him out

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and then he backed himself into a corner because he had to then prove it and they say well part of

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the deal is you've got to prove your satoshi and he tried to do that knowing he could never do it

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he failed to do that but they still believed him and so for the last nine years they've still been

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pushing him to be satoshi to be satoshi to prove it to prove it to prove it until last year it

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finally was proved once and for all that he's not satoshi so what started as a bit of a tax rip-off

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turned into him desperately having to prove it because he they told him he had to and then it

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turned into him trying to get millions or billions of pounds more through trying to trying to get

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people to buy these licenses from him when he didn't actually own them that's that's the the

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basis of this I think

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yeah

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shocking

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alright okay

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even a 14 year old

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can see the

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nonsense

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yeah it's pretty

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silly

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silly thing to do

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do you have any further questions

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um

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no

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I can tell a little anecdote.

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It's not really new.

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This type of story pops up every now and then.

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It reminds me a lot of this guy.

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What was his name again?

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I think in the 1920s or 1930s, who pretended to be the owner of the Eiffel Tower in Paris.

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And he tried to sell it as scrap metal to scrap metal dealers.

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And of course, he wasn't the owner.

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and the council or the municipal office of Paris

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was still, of course, the owner of the Eiffel Tower.

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But he sold it to a scrap metal dealer.

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I don't remember the amount,

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but it must have been quite substantial.

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And he ran away with it.

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And he did it again a few years later.

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He did the same trick again.

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So yeah we have those funny fraudsters every now and then in our life Yeah they make for good anecdotes Yeah Victor Lustig was the guy

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That's him.

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That's him, yes.

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Did he do the same with the London Bridge?

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I don't think so.

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I only know him from the Eiffel Tower that he sold twice.

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I remember somebody sold the London Bridge to some rich American guy.

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yeah they're all same type of story i guess yeah shocking shocking so they're called charlatans

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lauren or congmen people who pretend to be someone they are not or something that they

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are not to try and extract as much money out of people as they possibly can before disappearing

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but this time craig got caught they're very convincing you know the amount of people that

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we know that meet Craig in person before they know the story. And he convinces them, very

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intelligent people, because he talks with such confidence, hence the con word. He talks with

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confidence and authority about Bitcoin that it's like, well, he sounds like he knows what he's

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talking about. A lot of the things he says, a lot of the words he uses, a lot of the terminology,

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a lot of the passion he has with it, he must know a lot because he's saying a lot. But once you know

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the story and once you know how to handle him, you can look at what he's saying and think,

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actually he's talking nonsense that makes no sense it's just waffling and trying to sound

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important so once you learn to cut through that then you can dismantle it but it's what you say

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is completely right he he convinces people uh because he just he knows how to do it and he's

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con men they know what to say how to say it to convince people that what they're saying is true

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and it just isn't and it's very sad because uh just recently in the last few months i've met

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people from what you might call the freedom movement or the truth of movement or sovereign

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movement and they're all like they're convinced bsv is the real satoshi uh excuse me is the real

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bitcoin and uh the craig is the real satoshi and the cabal were the ones that brought him to the

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courts because they can't have the fiat system undermined and it's the cabal that are trying to

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bring him to justice and uh it was the he had to leave australia because of uh an undue uh

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unfortunate and unjust tax liability that uh you know it's it's unbelievable

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but but it fits so perfectly with what they believe that's why it's you know it's not like

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it had to be him it could have been anybody with the same with the same approach the same philosophy

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the same backers and it would have been them it's just these people that believe a certain thing

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and here comes this guy they fit together so perfectly oh here he is that's him and that's

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what that's all there is to it is two ideologies or an ideology meshing with individual that meets

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their needs and there they go right well we'll get into this now lauren thank you so much for

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your questions thank you for answering thank you yeah so i think uh it's best okay yep i think it's

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best if we just get a little intro into who you guys are so we can figure out how or why you were

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both interested by this, whether you were bought into this through an interest in Bitcoin or what

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you're... Take us through it. What brought you here today? Mark, we'll start with you.

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Well, I got into Bitcoin in 2017. It was when I bought my first Bitcoin. And I had heard of

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Craig Wright because of the headlines he was making. So I remember hearing about in late 2015,

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I knew what Bitcoin was. And I heard about this guy. I was like, oh, this guy says he's a Toshier.

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That's quite interesting. And then forgot about it. And then 2016, when he came out and tried to

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prove it through the signing sessions and failed again, I was like, oh, it's that same guy. What's

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he still doing? Again, thought nothing of it. Then when I got into Bitcoin in 2017, it was right at

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the time of the Bitcoin Bitcoin cash war the split and of course Craig Wright was on the Bitcoin cash

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side I'm gonna start to look into that I was like oh it's this guy again you know he won't leave me

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alone so I did some more digging and I was like do people really believe this this you know and I

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did some research into 2015 2016 I was like this just sounds like a cock and bull story it sounds

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like nonsense but he's got all this massive following and then again I didn't think anything

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of it and then in 2018 i started writing for a crypto news outlet and that's when he was sued

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by ira klyman for uh you know billions and billions of dollars half of the satoshi fortune

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and i did some more digging at that point wrote a few stories and i did some digging and i came

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across this guy called arthur van pelt who had written all these massive long medium pieces on

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the thing i was like god this guy knows a hell of a lot i'm gonna i'm gonna speak to him and at the

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time we would just started doing our own podcast on on the for the website so he was one of my

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first guests so i spoke to him with very little knowledge of what was going on and he really

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opened my eyes to what the truth of the story was and the rabbit hole that it was and so we spoke in

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depth and then the year afterwards when craig was uh told eventually it was discounted but he was

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initially told to hand over half the bitcoin fortune i spoke to arthur again about that and

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said well how you know how does this work and we went into it again and then a couple years later

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we we stayed in touch about this and a couple years later i was thinking about it i was like

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this story especially when when copa sued him in 2021 again we'll get into that but i was like this

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story is so good so because i'm a writer you know i love stories and this is such an incredible

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story there's so many people don't know about it has to be told but how do we tell a story that's

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been so huge already it's mushroomed already how do you tell that story for a lay audience and keep

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them interested and I've also always wanted to do a podcast um but I've never had a subject to do it

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on and I was like yeah you know what this is the perfect story for a podcast so I spoke to us I was

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like are you interested in working with me on this podcast we'll tell the Craig story in like six

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episodes and we'll end the sixth episode um on in the present day on the day he starts the climbing

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case which is what we did and we didn't plan it this way but we then once we finished that first

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six telling the history we then just carried on month after month after month for like three more

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years and it just because there was so much coming out just kept coming and coming and coming

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and we had no idea 650 or 60 episodes oh yeah it was loads we did these bonus episodes and it's

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kind of crazy so but even doing those we were like we still haven't told the full story yet so

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there's still more to be told so I think last year or the year before I said look let's see if we can

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get a book out of this so we started writing a book and I quickly said we're not going to fit

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this into one book it's got to be two books so I started splitting into two books and I said to

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Martha we can't fit this into two books either there's got to be three books so we're now writing

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three books to cover the whole thing it's like 10 years of this massive fraud um so yeah that's so

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that's where we are now so this thing is just is just as you said at the very start taking over our

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lives now but um it's just he has helped us along the way so it's just an incredible story that

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I've always wanted to tell since I got into it and fortunately we now can do that so you were a

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writer by trade that's where you were coming from like yeah life yep so I'm a writer ghost writer

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um I'll you know write anything for anybody I've written a whole bunch of books and a whole range

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of subjects and still do today still get clients coming in today but the last three or four years

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as well as that paid work.

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I've been working on this Craig Wright project as well.

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So yeah, I was thinking it was going to end at some point.

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But yeah, generally, I am a writer by trade.

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So it was just, I'm always on the lookout for a good story.

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This is the best story.

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And I was like, no one's covered this.

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No one's covered this.

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So it was just great to be able to be

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at the forefront of this story.

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Yeah, you couldn't have even written

243
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a fiction story about it, right?

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No one would have believed you.

245
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No one would have believed you.

246
00:19:41,652 --> 00:19:43,092
Arthur, Arthur.

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back it up for me where where are you from what was your what was your job your day-to-day

248
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and uh and why were you already writing about this uh when when you were found by mark here

249
00:19:56,532 --> 00:20:03,372
yeah i have a slightly different uh history i go back a few years more in 2012 i discovered

250
00:20:03,372 --> 00:20:10,652
bitcoin i did my toe in the bitcoin arena in 2013 when i bought my first but i studied the

251
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subject already I found it an intriguing project going on and somewhat of a step forward in 2015

252
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I noticed that Craig Wright's person for a bit that was only on Twitter at that moment

253
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he interfered with a few Bitcoiners and he pretended to be a bit of an

254
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sort of expert about Bitcoin it didn't impress me much and it impressed no one actually but a few

255
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weeks or months, I don't remember exactly, he suddenly popped up in Wired and Gizmodo.

256
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That was in December. And then it was like, oh, he is, well, maybe a candidate. Okay.

257
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That's funny. But rather quickly, I think already the same or the next day, several Bitcoiners

258
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found out that his dox package, and I call it a self-dox package because I'm quite certain that

259
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He doxxed himself to, he tried with several outlets before Wired and Gizmodo,

260
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but it ended up that Wired and Gizmodo did the story and published it.

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But it contained forged evidence and inconsistent evidence.

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So I already had my big doubts and I did not see him as a really serious candidate

263
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because, of course, over the years I've seen several other candidates.

264
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from Newsweek, I remember, and other people like Nick Szabo,

265
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and several people have been mentioned over the years,

266
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and they all fail or they deny it, and then there is not enough,

267
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Roland Sassam, don't forget about him either.

268
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But anyway, in 2016, with the failed signing sessions,

269
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I completely lost interest in him.

270
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for me that was sealed signed and delivered not satoshi for me and i forgot about him basically

271
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he was in the background doing things with bitcoin cash but i really didn't pay attention to it

272
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and only in 2019 when he started to sue at first

273
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now well i actually i already got a little bit interested in the sidelines into the climate case

274
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that started in 2017 and I think it was early 2018 that I started to pay attention to it for a bit

275
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just out of interest but in 2019 I was seriously diving into it I had time on my hands because I

276
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stopped working I took all my saving I became Bitcoin consultant and I work here and there

277
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as Bitcoin consultant, but I can make my own time.

278
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I work from home.

279
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I have two children to take care of.

280
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So, of course, that takes some time away.

281
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But it also leaves behind a lot of time that I can spend on subjects.

282
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So every now and then I do Bitcoin projects.

283
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But every now and then I spend a lot of time on Craig Wright also.

284
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Not these days anymore because the story is a bit over And of course I helping Mark with the book but in 2019 that was a different story then he was suing people for Libel about a handful

285
00:23:32,944 --> 00:23:41,024
and a few of them I considered yeah online friends like Adam Beck and Hodel Naut, Peter McCormack

286
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I mean those are and have been always have been good online friends of me that I respect and

287
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and cherish to have in my online circles.

288
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And a few of them I actually met also on seminars and those places.

289
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But then I started writing.

290
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And yeah, as it happens, I've never been a serious writer,

291
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but when I took the effort, I'm rather detailed.

292
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So I go deep and I go long and I spit everything out and I turn every stone that I see and I want to know what's going on.

293
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So it turns out that I think 90-95% of my articles are long forms, just like the Satoshi Affair of Andrew O'Hagan.

294
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He wrote a long form after half a year of research.

295
00:24:38,304 --> 00:24:40,084
I basically do the same.

296
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I research something and I write a long form about it.

297
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and if

298
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I mean Mark has now been able

299
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to put it in three books

300
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if I take all my articles together I think I'm on

301
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five or six books

302
00:24:52,584 --> 00:24:54,464
but it's way too detailed

303
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that's why I need Mark to be the ghost writer

304
00:24:57,544 --> 00:24:59,464
of this whole

305
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stuff I mean it's

306
00:25:00,524 --> 00:25:03,204
98% his work

307
00:25:03,204 --> 00:25:04,524
and I only do the proof reading

308
00:25:04,524 --> 00:25:07,104
and some correction work

309
00:25:07,104 --> 00:25:09,264
here and then and he manages to

310
00:25:09,264 --> 00:25:11,244
make a coherent story of

311
00:25:11,244 --> 00:25:14,384
what I do in many

312
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I think I'm close to 50

313
00:25:16,424 --> 00:25:17,524
articles now

314
00:25:17,524 --> 00:25:18,884
they're all

315
00:25:18,884 --> 00:25:21,404
deep dives into

316
00:25:21,404 --> 00:25:23,784
if I take a forgery

317
00:25:23,784 --> 00:25:26,104
I come up with 50 or 60 forgeries

318
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so to say and I show them all

319
00:25:28,224 --> 00:25:30,264
like what has he been doing now

320
00:25:30,264 --> 00:25:30,664
again

321
00:25:30,664 --> 00:25:34,184
you know things like that and when I take a

322
00:25:34,184 --> 00:25:35,344
subject like his

323
00:25:35,344 --> 00:25:38,244
just a random subject, supercomputers

324
00:25:38,244 --> 00:25:40,224
he has been lying

325
00:25:40,224 --> 00:25:42,384
and forging about supercomputers also.

326
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Yeah, then nobody knew ever that he was lying about five supercomputers.

327
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We always thought it was about two or three,

328
00:25:50,964 --> 00:25:53,864
but it has been, if you dive into the story for a bit

329
00:25:53,864 --> 00:25:56,284
and find out all the details,

330
00:25:56,704 --> 00:25:59,944
he actually said one time that he had five supercomputers.

331
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Now, yeah, those details.

332
00:26:02,564 --> 00:26:05,284
He had five and invented them all, I'm guessing.

333
00:26:05,504 --> 00:26:06,904
Is that the claim?

334
00:26:06,904 --> 00:26:14,024
nah the claim is that he had them and that he used them as bitcoin supercomputers mostly for uh for

335
00:26:14,024 --> 00:26:22,424
mining and and and for transacting and stuff but they were uh what i call uh potemkin villages all

336
00:26:22,424 --> 00:26:30,344
they never existed it was just uh of course he had a few server racks uh on his table and uh he once

337
00:26:30,344 --> 00:26:36,424
had uh or maybe even a few times he had the ato people uh visiting him and checking out on those

338
00:26:36,424 --> 00:26:44,704
supercomputers but they quickly found out that it was uh yeah pulled from his ass just things that

339
00:26:44,704 --> 00:26:53,384
oh right okay so for the listeners then um a lot of people might be new to this some

340
00:26:53,384 --> 00:26:59,044
might not have even heard of him so in a nutshell uh he claimed to be satoshi nakamoto

341
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and uh this was like really picking up steam around 2017 when the block size wars were going

342
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on where there was a camp that wanted to increase the block size, the data that you can put

343
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in each block.

344
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And there was a camp saying no.

345
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And Craig would have been one of the big blockers drumming that beat following in the footsteps

346
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of Roger Ver.

347
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That all becomes all of a sudden Bitcoin Cash because they fork off and go and do their

348
00:27:29,704 --> 00:27:30,184
own thing.

349
00:27:30,184 --> 00:27:37,444
then was there infighting there because out of that comes bsv bitcoin satoshi vision

350
00:27:37,444 --> 00:27:44,644
yeah so to keep things it depends arthur can go into more detail but basically from from what my

351
00:27:44,644 --> 00:27:49,624
research to keep things at a higher level craig wanted to push things further so they'd already

352
00:27:49,624 --> 00:27:53,404
had this split with the big with the bigger blocks for bitcoin cash but craig says no we've got to

353
00:27:53,404 --> 00:27:56,444
keep going we've got to keep going make them unlimited size make them gigabytes make them

354
00:27:56,444 --> 00:28:00,484
this make them that so that was one aspect of it was he wanted to keep pushing further and further

355
00:28:00,484 --> 00:28:04,924
and bitcoin cash was saying well no let's just let's take it easy mate calm down we'll do it

356
00:28:04,924 --> 00:28:10,084
stage by stage and we'll do it slowly that was one part of it another part of it was that um i

357
00:28:10,084 --> 00:28:16,044
forget what month it was now but but bitcoin cash wanted to wanted to introduce certain uh technical

358
00:28:16,044 --> 00:28:20,584
facets to to change to tweak things slightly and again arthur can go to detail if we need to

359
00:28:20,584 --> 00:28:24,724
but there's three or four things that they wanted to do that craig wright said no if you do that

360
00:28:24,724 --> 00:28:27,664
you're going to basically break the blockchain you're going to you're going to screw it up we

361
00:28:27,664 --> 00:28:32,104
can't do that and so that's when it started and then it all went from there there was no

362
00:28:32,104 --> 00:28:35,904
they tried to well i don't even know if they tried to meet each other halfway it doesn't seem like

363
00:28:35,904 --> 00:28:41,784
they did they just were two two egos you know at each other the whole time thought i could i can do

364
00:28:41,784 --> 00:28:47,804
the best thing and went their separate ways and just had this this awful very very undignified

365
00:28:47,804 --> 00:28:52,684
fight to try and see who could be the real bitcoin cash and then it you know all fell apart in the

366
00:28:52,684 --> 00:28:59,204
late 2018 but from from my knowledge that's the high level of what happened there so where does

367
00:28:59,204 --> 00:29:05,144
to be fair i would i wouldn't know too much detail about it because like i just said in 2016 i lost

368
00:29:05,144 --> 00:29:13,104
completely interest the whole thing around bitcoin cash and bsv i followed it but i only let's say i

369
00:29:13,104 --> 00:29:19,504
took the headlines and and read them but for the rest it didn't really really interest me only in

370
00:29:19,504 --> 00:29:21,724
2019 I started to catch up

371
00:29:21,724 --> 00:29:23,364
again

372
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so what exactly happened in the details

373
00:29:25,644 --> 00:29:26,624
why was

374
00:29:26,624 --> 00:29:29,404
the only thing I can say is that in 2015

375
00:29:29,404 --> 00:29:31,404
don't forget that

376
00:29:31,404 --> 00:29:33,444
in 2015 Craig Wright

377
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already met Roger Furr

378
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and

379
00:29:37,304 --> 00:29:39,444
there were talks

380
00:29:39,444 --> 00:29:41,584
about or have been talks about

381
00:29:41,584 --> 00:29:43,124
Roger Furr

382
00:29:43,124 --> 00:29:45,384
helping Craig Wright in that era

383
00:29:45,384 --> 00:29:47,404
because that was when he needed his money

384
00:29:47,404 --> 00:29:49,044
the most for

385
00:29:49,044 --> 00:29:52,744
the bailout of his tax issues in Australia.

386
00:29:53,744 --> 00:29:59,204
And Roger Ver was interested to sponsor him

387
00:29:59,204 --> 00:30:03,604
for a rounded amount of 2 million, if I remember well.

388
00:30:03,924 --> 00:30:05,124
If it happened, I don't know,

389
00:30:05,424 --> 00:30:08,384
but it has been rumored in that time.

390
00:30:09,144 --> 00:30:10,084
I know.

391
00:30:10,684 --> 00:30:16,264
But otherwise, we can only say that they became friends at least.

392
00:30:16,264 --> 00:30:27,724
And until 2018, when they split up, when Roger Ver found out that Craig Wright was not really Satoshi Nakamoto, he didn't even know that, what was it again?

393
00:30:28,024 --> 00:30:35,944
Checksum was coded in Bitcoin by Satoshi and Mr. Satoshi himself didn't know that anymore.

394
00:30:37,004 --> 00:30:41,784
So, yeah, that's when Roger Ver was thinking, no, this guy is a fraud.

395
00:30:41,784 --> 00:30:57,464
Where does Calvin enter the story? Because he was the big backer, right? He was the billionaire that was ready to go to war and back Craig and believed Craig to be Satoshi.

396
00:30:57,464 --> 00:31:06,024
so that story goes back to late 2014 um and calvin knew about bitcoin calvin had known about

397
00:31:06,024 --> 00:31:10,024
bitcoin since the very early days because obviously he's got a big gambling background

398
00:31:10,024 --> 00:31:15,844
and he recognized early on what bitcoin could do for gambling uh and those and everything

399
00:31:15,844 --> 00:31:19,564
surrounding that so he was he knew what bitcoin was and he knew he knew the promise of it

400
00:31:19,564 --> 00:31:24,584
so then fast forward like four years later and he's looking for investments in the because you'll

401
00:31:24,584 --> 00:31:29,844
very wealthy man billionaire by that point not so much now thanks thanks to craig um so he was a

402
00:31:29,844 --> 00:31:34,384
billionaire back then and he was looking through these investments so he tasked a guy called

403
00:31:34,384 --> 00:31:40,604
stephen matthews who was working for one of his other companies at the time with finding potential

404
00:31:40,604 --> 00:31:48,084
investments for him in the apac region and again this is very murky because every time they tell

405
00:31:48,084 --> 00:31:54,084
the story it changes so i'll stick to the facts that we do know him stephen matthews and craig

406
00:31:54,084 --> 00:31:59,564
right reconnected in late 2014 just as craig was having his big issues with the tax office and

407
00:31:59,564 --> 00:32:05,304
craig says look i'm in real trouble here i need to get access to money i need a hefty bailout so

408
00:32:05,304 --> 00:32:11,964
i can pay the ato off and so calvin's looking for investment craig and stephan start talking

409
00:32:11,964 --> 00:32:18,144
and however it happened stephan says to to calvin i've i know this guy that's a toshin akamosi you

410
00:32:18,144 --> 00:32:21,644
know that bitcoin thing i know the inventor do you want to have a work with him see if we can

411
00:32:21,644 --> 00:32:27,364
invest in him so Calvin's like of course yes really want to do that so they meet up in I think

412
00:32:27,364 --> 00:32:33,864
it's April maybe May in 2015 and this is when as I said to the top Craig is very good at condensing

413
00:32:33,864 --> 00:32:40,744
people who don't know better so him and Stefan Matthews pitched the Satoshi IP idea to Calvin

414
00:32:40,744 --> 00:32:46,204
Air in in Calvin's house in Vancouver so you've got Calvin Air who knows what Bitcoin is knows

415
00:32:46,204 --> 00:32:50,924
the potential you've got Stefan Matthews trusted friend who's been tasked with finding investments

416
00:32:50,924 --> 00:32:55,383
for him and stephan matthews and craig wright know each other very well and craig wright's a very

417
00:32:55,383 --> 00:33:00,264
convincing and and believable person if you don't know what you're talking about so you add that

418
00:33:00,264 --> 00:33:06,424
all together and you can see very easily how they decided or calvin air decided he was going to seek

419
00:33:06,424 --> 00:33:12,864
to put money into craig to monetize all this ip that craig has supposedly been working on with his

420
00:33:12,864 --> 00:33:17,724
companies in australia for all these years to try and rescue it from the tax man so try and pay all

421
00:33:17,724 --> 00:33:23,383
this money to bail out his issues with the tax man get all this ip bring it over to the uk and

422
00:33:23,383 --> 00:33:27,424
we're going to start to sell the ip and do stuff with it so that's how that all got together is

423
00:33:27,424 --> 00:33:33,824
calvin thinks that he's going to invest in craig put 15 million dollars it was i think into his

424
00:33:33,824 --> 00:33:41,744
into him and his companies this new setup in the uk with the idea of selling the ip for billions to

425
00:33:41,744 --> 00:33:46,264
Google, Microsoft, Apple, whatever, you know, a few years down the line.

426
00:33:46,383 --> 00:33:48,944
So that's how that ball started rolling.

427
00:33:51,984 --> 00:33:52,584
Wow.

428
00:33:54,824 --> 00:33:55,424
What?

429
00:33:56,684 --> 00:34:03,504
He backed him hard because I remember Calvin would go after on Twitter.

430
00:34:03,744 --> 00:34:09,024
He would go after a lot of the Bitcoin maximalists who were calling out Craig.

431
00:34:11,744 --> 00:34:19,424
yeah that was that was that was when in 2019 he started to uh to sponsor craig for the

432
00:34:19,424 --> 00:34:28,204
for the liberal suits that's right yeah so to to get people up to speed there again uh i think

433
00:34:28,204 --> 00:34:34,883
hodlernort was probably the the most well-known case here uh hodlernort an anonymous twitter

434
00:34:34,883 --> 00:34:41,244
uh account well respected they've been around for for many years had some very good takes on

435
00:34:41,244 --> 00:34:48,564
Bitcoin and had basically tweeted that he didn't believe, along with many others who didn't believe

436
00:34:48,564 --> 00:34:57,684
what had been going on and that Craig was making, you know, spurious claims about being Satoshi.

437
00:34:58,184 --> 00:35:17,815
And then all of a sudden he gets hunted down People were following him around He had basic either Craig or Calvin or between the two of them had used a substantial amount of money to get the identity of him

438
00:35:17,815 --> 00:35:21,035
to be able to sue him for libel.

439
00:35:23,135 --> 00:35:25,575
Yeah, I mean, this is where Arthur comes into the story,

440
00:35:25,655 --> 00:35:27,335
but just to give you a quick, again, another anecdote,

441
00:35:27,335 --> 00:35:29,315
to give you an idea of where they went to with this.

442
00:35:29,675 --> 00:35:31,075
They hired a firm,

443
00:35:31,075 --> 00:35:37,095
and they one of the guys in this investigation firm pretended to be the norwegian police the

444
00:35:37,095 --> 00:35:41,196
oslo police and phoned up when they found out where hodlnacht worked the school he worked at

445
00:35:41,196 --> 00:35:46,916
as a teacher they phoned the reception and said oh this is the oslo police we're working with this guy

446
00:35:46,916 --> 00:35:53,456
um on a case and we need his address and phone number and the receptionist gave these details

447
00:35:53,456 --> 00:35:59,456
out without thinking about it and then thought oh what have i done phoned him and said look i think

448
00:35:59,456 --> 00:36:03,175
i've done something stupid i've just given your details out but you know you may be you may be in

449
00:36:03,175 --> 00:36:08,755
trouble here and then that's when he put the phone down and then a few minutes later the guy phoned

450
00:36:08,755 --> 00:36:13,196
him and said i know who you are you've got to sign these papers now so that's the length they went to

451
00:36:13,196 --> 00:36:20,835
is pretending to be the police to try and to get his information from his workplace yeah wow yeah

452
00:36:20,835 --> 00:36:25,916
that was that was one of the things but but what you also should have in mind is that over the

453
00:36:25,916 --> 00:36:28,015
years when in 2015, Calvin

454
00:36:28,015 --> 00:36:29,896
Air started to sponsor Craig

455
00:36:29,896 --> 00:36:32,215
Wright first with an initial investment

456
00:36:32,215 --> 00:36:33,975
together with

457
00:36:33,975 --> 00:36:35,936
Robert McGregor, which I think

458
00:36:35,936 --> 00:36:37,755
he was the face of

459
00:36:37,755 --> 00:36:40,135
the whole thing in 2015 first

460
00:36:40,135 --> 00:36:41,755
for around

461
00:36:41,755 --> 00:36:43,515
15 million. But between

462
00:36:43,515 --> 00:36:45,835
2015 and 2019, when

463
00:36:45,835 --> 00:36:47,815
this liberal suits started to

464
00:36:47,815 --> 00:36:49,916
play out, Calvin

465
00:36:49,916 --> 00:36:52,075
Air invested tens, if not

466
00:36:52,075 --> 00:36:54,055
a few hundred million in the whole thing

467
00:36:54,055 --> 00:36:55,335
in coin-gene mining,

468
00:36:55,916 --> 00:37:00,275
in CoinGeek, the website, in several outlets, in Enchain.

469
00:37:00,775 --> 00:37:02,835
He hired a lot of developers.

470
00:37:02,835 --> 00:37:08,015
He tried to set up at least a lot of apps and stuff.

471
00:37:09,376 --> 00:37:12,315
So it has been costing him quite a lot of money.

472
00:37:12,475 --> 00:37:16,215
So at some point, he got frustrated that Craig Wright,

473
00:37:16,535 --> 00:37:17,535
either he couldn't sign,

474
00:37:17,956 --> 00:37:23,896
and he wasn't still being recognized by the wider audience as Satoshi.

475
00:37:23,896 --> 00:37:28,956
So, yeah, his stakes were becoming high, so to say.

476
00:37:30,595 --> 00:37:33,295
Sorry, just to finish this off, I saw a figure recently.

477
00:37:33,416 --> 00:37:33,956
It's really bugging.

478
00:37:34,035 --> 00:37:37,035
I can't remember where I saw it, but it was from a reputable source

479
00:37:37,035 --> 00:37:40,835
who put the figure of the amount of money Calvin has spent on Craig

480
00:37:40,835 --> 00:37:44,295
and BSV and all the infrastructure as something like $700 million.

481
00:37:45,215 --> 00:37:46,615
Yeah, I read that too, yeah.

482
00:37:46,655 --> 00:37:49,255
I forget what the source was, but if that's true,

483
00:37:49,396 --> 00:37:52,635
and I think the source is probably almost certainly right on that,

484
00:37:52,635 --> 00:37:58,515
as a staggering amount of money for zero return, minus return.

485
00:37:59,335 --> 00:38:00,235
Yeah, yeah.

486
00:38:00,715 --> 00:38:01,196
Wow.

487
00:38:02,515 --> 00:38:04,735
Wow, that's nuts.

488
00:38:06,335 --> 00:38:11,155
And to have that single-minded faith, belief,

489
00:38:11,295 --> 00:38:14,335
whatever you would call it, to be so narrow-minded

490
00:38:14,335 --> 00:38:18,475
that you ignore what he's had to ignore to still believe this,

491
00:38:18,916 --> 00:38:20,015
it's mind-boggling.

492
00:38:20,015 --> 00:38:28,735
yeah it wasn't just us plebs on twitter like you know there was a this was a huge question mark

493
00:38:28,735 --> 00:38:37,995
like you know it's uh 700 mil like wow i mean talk about digging yourself into a hole

494
00:38:37,995 --> 00:38:43,615
so you you guys have said a couple of times like that you've mentioned the signing sessions so

495
00:38:43,615 --> 00:38:49,075
again i want to keep people that might be new to this story up to speed with some of the

496
00:38:49,075 --> 00:38:58,275
terminology that we're using uh what what do you mean by that uh because i guess the easiest way

497
00:38:58,275 --> 00:39:04,055
to describe it would be okay if you claim to be satoshi just sign a transaction

498
00:39:04,055 --> 00:39:10,215
and move you know some holdings from the genesis block to a new address

499
00:39:10,215 --> 00:39:19,015
yeah basically it's an it's a technical way of uh using cryptography cryptography sorry um

500
00:39:19,015 --> 00:39:26,155
with Bitcoin to prove your identity somewhat in real life

501
00:39:26,155 --> 00:39:28,595
as being the owner of a certain address.

502
00:39:28,755 --> 00:39:30,456
It's not directly a transaction.

503
00:39:31,416 --> 00:39:34,775
It's more a public Bitcoin address that you take.

504
00:39:35,175 --> 00:39:39,635
And what's easier than taking, for example, the Genesis block,

505
00:39:39,775 --> 00:39:42,615
the very first block that Satoshi Nakamoto created.

506
00:39:42,615 --> 00:39:47,495
I mean, there's no doubt whatsoever with anyone that Satoshi Nakamoto

507
00:39:47,495 --> 00:39:54,416
owns and controls and must have the private key to the Genesis block because he created it himself

508
00:39:54,416 --> 00:40:05,476
in January 2009. Then with that public address, you take a piece of text, a piece of random text

509
00:40:05,476 --> 00:40:10,856
that you can make up yourself or ask somebody else to create for you. Like, I am Satoshi Nakamoto.

510
00:40:10,856 --> 00:40:12,015
So hi, how are you doing?

511
00:40:12,595 --> 00:40:14,495
And then you take the text, you put it in.

512
00:40:15,315 --> 00:40:16,195
It's a tool.

513
00:40:16,335 --> 00:40:18,735
It's a feature in the Bitcoin wallet.

514
00:40:19,135 --> 00:40:22,275
Then you put it in a specific field.

515
00:40:22,275 --> 00:40:27,115
And the last field is, what was it again?

516
00:40:29,075 --> 00:40:29,315
Oh, yeah.

517
00:40:29,356 --> 00:40:32,715
In the background, of course, you have the private key is being used.

518
00:40:32,856 --> 00:40:37,356
And then you generate a so-called signature.

519
00:40:38,175 --> 00:40:42,595
Then at that moment, you have created three elements,

520
00:40:43,315 --> 00:40:45,456
the public address, the text, and the signature.

521
00:40:45,456 --> 00:40:48,735
And you can give that to a random person all over the world

522
00:40:48,735 --> 00:40:52,995
who can then also use on his local machine the same tool,

523
00:40:53,515 --> 00:40:55,535
the signing verification tool.

524
00:40:56,095 --> 00:41:01,275
It then becomes that if this person has given you the right signature

525
00:41:01,275 --> 00:41:03,936
together with the right text and the right public address

526
00:41:03,936 --> 00:41:06,095
of the Genesis block, for example,

527
00:41:06,095 --> 00:41:14,416
then this person sending you that information has proven to be the owner of that specific public

528
00:41:14,416 --> 00:41:21,815
address without giving away the private key to that address but by giving away the signature to

529
00:41:21,815 --> 00:41:27,936
that address so to say combined with a specific piece of text

530
00:41:27,936 --> 00:41:30,436
and it is

531
00:41:30,436 --> 00:41:32,456
in Bitcoin circles

532
00:41:32,456 --> 00:41:34,175
the most

533
00:41:34,175 --> 00:41:36,815
important proof that you can

534
00:41:36,815 --> 00:41:37,936
ask

535
00:41:37,936 --> 00:41:40,695
from somebody who is claiming

536
00:41:40,695 --> 00:41:41,956
to be Satoshi Nakamoto

537
00:41:41,956 --> 00:41:44,715
well then sign one of your early blocks

538
00:41:44,715 --> 00:41:45,715
well why not

539
00:41:45,715 --> 00:41:46,755
one of your

540
00:41:46,755 --> 00:41:50,035
there's 50 Bitcoin

541
00:41:50,035 --> 00:41:52,535
of your belongings in

542
00:41:52,535 --> 00:41:54,376
block 1, block 2, block 3

543
00:41:54,376 --> 00:41:56,535
and it's on a public address

544
00:41:56,535 --> 00:41:57,515
on that block

545
00:41:57,515 --> 00:42:00,815
So why don't you sign one of those blocks

546
00:42:00,815 --> 00:42:04,476
and then we are certain that you are Satoshi Nakamoto.

547
00:42:05,555 --> 00:42:09,615
And yeah, that is for all the Bitcoin original gangsters,

548
00:42:09,795 --> 00:42:10,515
all the OGs.

549
00:42:10,755 --> 00:42:13,896
It's clear as day that that is the best way

550
00:42:13,896 --> 00:42:16,635
of proving that you're Satoshi Nakamoto.

551
00:42:16,856 --> 00:42:19,015
And of course, you can ask several other things

552
00:42:19,015 --> 00:42:22,175
like emails from the old days and other things.

553
00:42:22,735 --> 00:42:25,555
But signing is on top of everybody's list

554
00:42:25,555 --> 00:42:35,396
of how to prove your satoshi so mark how did he he couldn't do this uh i even was it even

555
00:42:35,396 --> 00:42:42,675
televised one of these sessions well yeah the dbc filmed it um so it wasn't it wasn't live or

556
00:42:42,675 --> 00:42:46,456
anything but it was part of this whole package that these these pr people put together calvin

557
00:42:46,456 --> 00:42:50,275
and robert mcgregor put this whole pr package together where he would be interviewed by

558
00:42:50,275 --> 00:42:52,495
BBC, The Economist, GQ

559
00:42:52,495 --> 00:42:54,575
he had features in their

560
00:42:54,575 --> 00:42:56,876
magazines, he was

561
00:42:56,876 --> 00:42:58,015
supposed to put out this public

562
00:42:58,015 --> 00:43:00,515
blog post with the signature string

563
00:43:00,515 --> 00:43:02,595
Arthur's talking about was supposed to let anybody

564
00:43:02,595 --> 00:43:04,595
any of us plebs go and check the

565
00:43:04,595 --> 00:43:06,495
signing for ourselves, this whole

566
00:43:06,495 --> 00:43:08,396
bomb was supposed to drop on the 2nd of May

567
00:43:08,396 --> 00:43:08,976
2016

568
00:43:08,976 --> 00:43:11,595
and when it did

569
00:43:11,595 --> 00:43:14,416
it was, the BBC

570
00:43:14,416 --> 00:43:16,495
put their video out, GQ was later

571
00:43:16,495 --> 00:43:18,075
but The Economist put their piece out

572
00:43:18,075 --> 00:43:23,856
all this stuff went live um john matonis um gavin andresen both but because they'd witnessed these

573
00:43:23,856 --> 00:43:30,476
signings they put supportive blog posts out but within minutes people had figured out it was a it

574
00:43:30,476 --> 00:43:34,315
was a scam and it was just nonsense and the whole thing fell apart so quickly

575
00:43:34,315 --> 00:43:38,835
you remember those days after

576
00:43:38,835 --> 00:43:47,456
yes quite well but uh not only because i was there uh from minute to minute i followed it

577
00:43:47,456 --> 00:43:49,695
slightly on the sidelines

578
00:43:49,695 --> 00:43:51,995
but close enough to know

579
00:43:51,995 --> 00:43:53,715
again immediately that okay

580
00:43:53,715 --> 00:43:56,075
this is again not the proof

581
00:43:56,075 --> 00:43:58,255
but one of my first articles

582
00:43:58,255 --> 00:44:00,275
in that must have been

583
00:44:00,275 --> 00:44:02,195
2018

584
00:44:02,195 --> 00:44:03,976
or 2019 maybe 2020

585
00:44:03,976 --> 00:44:06,195
somewhere but one of my first long

586
00:44:06,195 --> 00:44:08,335
forms perhaps even

587
00:44:08,335 --> 00:44:10,335
no not my first

588
00:44:10,335 --> 00:44:12,175
maybe my second was

589
00:44:12,175 --> 00:44:14,175
everything

590
00:44:14,175 --> 00:44:16,015
happening about around

591
00:44:16,015 --> 00:44:20,695
and inside the signing sessions.

592
00:44:21,195 --> 00:44:26,055
Signing sessions debacle is one of my oldest articles

593
00:44:26,055 --> 00:44:30,255
and still one of my favorites and also one of my favorites

594
00:44:30,255 --> 00:44:34,155
because I can see that still people read it

595
00:44:34,155 --> 00:44:36,936
because it contains all the information.

596
00:44:37,195 --> 00:44:39,575
Everybody who was involved, all the emails,

597
00:44:40,095 --> 00:44:42,936
all the inside emails I managed to find,

598
00:44:43,456 --> 00:44:45,695
of course, mostly in the climate case.

599
00:44:45,695 --> 00:44:46,995
that started in 2017.

600
00:44:47,995 --> 00:44:52,396
There are a lot of the evidence popped up.

601
00:44:53,195 --> 00:44:55,815
People involved in the signing sessions

602
00:44:55,815 --> 00:44:59,015
have been coming out in later years or so.

603
00:44:59,775 --> 00:45:04,135
Even Gavin Andrewsson retracted some of his stuff.

604
00:45:05,595 --> 00:45:09,035
But most importantly were the emails,

605
00:45:10,015 --> 00:45:11,075
the background emails

606
00:45:11,075 --> 00:45:16,456
and that Ira Kleiman requested from that era.

607
00:45:16,916 --> 00:45:22,775
So we even know that he was trained by specific companies to do it.

608
00:45:22,775 --> 00:45:26,495
So he followed, I think, with two different companies,

609
00:45:26,695 --> 00:45:29,235
media training and sessions.

610
00:45:29,675 --> 00:45:30,655
Man, crazy.

611
00:45:31,715 --> 00:45:32,775
It's wild.

612
00:45:33,015 --> 00:45:37,495
And to think there's another quite famous video out there on the interwebs,

613
00:45:37,515 --> 00:45:40,595
if anybody wants to go and find it, where he was at a conference.

614
00:45:40,595 --> 00:45:46,655
I can't remember where it was, but he was being questioned very heavily by somebody in the first few rows.

615
00:45:46,795 --> 00:45:48,195
And that somebody was Richard Hart.

616
00:45:48,675 --> 00:45:52,315
Now, Richard Hart, at that point, was still a Bitcoin maxi.

617
00:45:53,155 --> 00:45:58,495
And then he just went on and started his own shitcoin, which is called Hex,

618
00:45:58,615 --> 00:46:05,916
and has done an awful job of pumping and dumping on retail and enriching himself, conning people.

619
00:46:06,315 --> 00:46:09,335
It's wild. It's a wild, wild space.

620
00:46:09,335 --> 00:46:15,876
there is a reason why i've earmarked him as the next person if i do if i do if i do more crypto

621
00:46:15,876 --> 00:46:22,575
stuff after craig right he he's the next one there's a reason for that so back to craig 2019

622
00:46:22,575 --> 00:46:30,035
2020 uh so we've got um yeah the hodl and all stuff yeah he's sued also uh peter mccormack for

623
00:46:30,035 --> 00:46:35,856
for defamation or libel whatever keeps going to court he's in and out we all we're all following

624
00:46:35,856 --> 00:46:43,175
this now pretty much. So when was COPA formed and what does it stand for? I couldn't remember

625
00:46:43,175 --> 00:46:47,095
the acronym today. That's the Cryptocurrency Open Patent Alliance.

626
00:46:47,535 --> 00:46:52,396
Open Patent Alliance. Right. I was looking for the P. So can you talk...

627
00:46:52,447 --> 00:46:59,087
about how that was formed and how it was funded before we get to the court case well from what i

628
00:46:59,087 --> 00:47:05,707
know in terms of in terms of how it was formed it's formed in september 2020 with i think coinbase

629
00:47:05,707 --> 00:47:10,567
was maybe a founder square was maybe a founding company arthur may know more of them but there's

630
00:47:10,567 --> 00:47:18,707
there's a good sort of four or five of them the idea the idea behind them was to create a um a

631
00:47:18,707 --> 00:47:25,987
a collection of crypto related companies who could pull their patents and anyone who is a member of

632
00:47:25,987 --> 00:47:31,087
COPA could you could rely on any of those patents to defend themselves if any of them was challenged

633
00:47:31,087 --> 00:47:37,707
by sub by a patent troll in the space say so if you remember you can use any of the ones that are

634
00:47:37,707 --> 00:47:43,487
in the pool to defend yourself you're not allowed to attack other people you can't litigate someone

635
00:47:43,487 --> 00:47:47,867
through using those patents but you can defend yourself that was the concept and of course that

636
00:47:47,867 --> 00:47:53,447
comes around at a time when craig and calvin and n chain are talking more and more about about

637
00:47:53,447 --> 00:47:59,187
enforcing these patents that they've got so you know we we can't say for sure but it was a response

638
00:47:59,187 --> 00:48:05,087
to n chains kind of posturing but you know it's it's it was timely let's just say that

639
00:48:05,087 --> 00:48:15,267
yeah yeah and a bit later in 21 early 21 it was craig wright actually uh sending letters around to

640
00:48:15,267 --> 00:48:18,487
Blockstream and several others

641
00:48:18,487 --> 00:48:20,747
you are

642
00:48:20,747 --> 00:48:22,807
using my copyright

643
00:48:22,807 --> 00:48:24,267
and I do not agree

644
00:48:24,267 --> 00:48:26,407
stop using my copyright or stop publishing

645
00:48:26,407 --> 00:48:28,007
my white paper I think

646
00:48:28,007 --> 00:48:30,287
it was also one of the things from

647
00:48:30,287 --> 00:48:31,887
where it started

648
00:48:31,887 --> 00:48:33,427
and

649
00:48:33,427 --> 00:48:35,627
so they

650
00:48:35,627 --> 00:48:37,927
went to Copa and they said

651
00:48:37,927 --> 00:48:39,747
what shall we do with this and Copa said

652
00:48:39,747 --> 00:48:41,667
we can send a friendly letter to him

653
00:48:41,667 --> 00:48:43,547
and please prove that you're Satoshi

654
00:48:43,547 --> 00:48:47,207
and then we might believe you and then we can talk business.

655
00:48:47,707 --> 00:48:51,707
But we don't believe you in the first place, so come up with evidence.

656
00:48:52,787 --> 00:48:55,687
And Craig Wright was stubborn at that moment

657
00:48:55,687 --> 00:49:00,187
and that's why we can say that he called it upon himself.

658
00:49:00,187 --> 00:49:05,907
He was the one being aggressive and he was the one not coming up with the evidence

659
00:49:05,907 --> 00:49:10,807
and he knew beforehand that he would be sued because COPA,

660
00:49:10,807 --> 00:49:12,547
one of the parties in Copa

661
00:49:12,547 --> 00:49:14,167
indeed is Coinbase

662
00:49:14,167 --> 00:49:16,287
and Coinbase is at times

663
00:49:16,287 --> 00:49:17,947
a very aggressive litigator

664
00:49:17,947 --> 00:49:20,747
so Craig Wright

665
00:49:20,747 --> 00:49:22,247
had no idea what was coming

666
00:49:22,247 --> 00:49:24,487
towards him or he had

667
00:49:24,487 --> 00:49:26,527
maybe because at some

668
00:49:26,527 --> 00:49:28,467
point he said that he wanted it

669
00:49:28,467 --> 00:49:30,327
to happen like this

670
00:49:30,327 --> 00:49:32,467
but of course he didn't want because he

671
00:49:32,467 --> 00:49:33,987
lost it bigly

672
00:49:33,987 --> 00:49:36,147
in the end but

673
00:49:36,147 --> 00:49:38,327
at that time he was

674
00:49:38,327 --> 00:49:40,547
requested to come up with evidence he refused

675
00:49:40,547 --> 00:49:47,847
And then two months later, I think it was only two or three months between the first letter of Craig Wright to a few parties.

676
00:49:48,287 --> 00:49:57,787
And a few months later, it was already Copa suing him for basically not owning copyrights and not being Satoshi Nakamoto.

677
00:49:58,267 --> 00:49:59,347
Yeah, I remember now.

678
00:50:00,127 --> 00:50:01,607
And there's an interesting story here as well.

679
00:50:01,607 --> 00:50:05,587
because what he was trying to basically say

680
00:50:05,587 --> 00:50:07,847
was trying to trademark the white paper

681
00:50:07,847 --> 00:50:12,087
and copyright it as his own work.

682
00:50:12,627 --> 00:50:17,567
And I even believe he started suing developers

683
00:50:17,567 --> 00:50:21,187
or even just websites that had,

684
00:50:21,187 --> 00:50:24,547
any website that had the Bitcoin white paper published,

685
00:50:25,067 --> 00:50:30,327
he was going after because it was in his eyes

686
00:50:30,327 --> 00:50:37,347
through the whole scan it it was copyrighted to him well do you remember the do you remember the

687
00:50:37,347 --> 00:50:45,587
u.s copyright thing no go ahead he so in in 2019 he he uh wrote to the u.s copyright office and said

688
00:50:45,587 --> 00:50:50,587
i want you to grant me copyright over the bitcoin white paper and so then when these headlines come

689
00:50:50,587 --> 00:50:55,067
out saying craig writers copyrighted the bitcoin white paper in the u.s i mean the price of bsv

690
00:50:55,067 --> 00:50:58,967
like tripled like within minutes you know it's just because people fight oh my god he's he's got

691
00:50:58,967 --> 00:51:03,527
he's got it but of course over the coming over the following days it turned out he'd been granted

692
00:51:03,527 --> 00:51:09,087
nothing because all you have to do is for to grant to be granted a copyright the type that he had it

693
00:51:09,087 --> 00:51:14,487
wasn't granted he applied for he said this is mine i wrote the bitcoin white paper i demand copyright

694
00:51:14,487 --> 00:51:19,387
they said are you satoshi nakamoto he said yes they said okay then well there you go

695
00:51:19,387 --> 00:51:25,847
that was it that was it there's nothing else needed um and so they wrote and said look anyone

696
00:51:25,847 --> 00:51:30,967
can do this you you can claim copyright over almost anything really if it's not been copyrighted or

697
00:51:30,967 --> 00:51:36,827
even if it has been copyrighted already you can try until someone sues you and you lose you've got

698
00:51:36,827 --> 00:51:42,347
a valid claim so therefore arthur as i'm sure he'll say and a few others jumped on board so within a

699
00:51:42,347 --> 00:51:47,387
few weeks you've got five or six people who've all claimed copyright as well because until they

700
00:51:47,387 --> 00:51:51,847
sue each other they've all got equally as valid claims so anyway so craig gets what he thinks is

701
00:51:51,847 --> 00:51:57,807
this copyright and that he thinks allows him to sue to to sue uh to write to bitcoin.org and

702
00:51:57,807 --> 00:52:02,367
bitcoin uh i forget the website that was there bitcoin core.org i think it was or something

703
00:52:02,367 --> 00:52:07,807
and square and these companies anyone like you say any website big company hosting the white paper

704
00:52:07,807 --> 00:52:12,547
i've got copyright i've got proof i've got copyright take it down now some of them did

705
00:52:12,547 --> 00:52:17,767
some of them didn't but obviously that's what started the copa situation so you applied for

706
00:52:17,767 --> 00:52:18,847
copyright as well, Arthur?

707
00:52:19,987 --> 00:52:20,707
Yes, I did.

708
00:52:21,407 --> 00:52:23,467
Mine was granted in May

709
00:52:23,467 --> 00:52:25,607
2019, while Craig's was

710
00:52:25,607 --> 00:52:27,667
and he paid $800

711
00:52:27,667 --> 00:52:29,427
because he did

712
00:52:29,427 --> 00:52:31,427
a speeded up

713
00:52:31,427 --> 00:52:33,547
process that

714
00:52:33,547 --> 00:52:35,487
costed him extra, so it would be

715
00:52:35,487 --> 00:52:37,847
granted within days

716
00:52:37,847 --> 00:52:39,547
and I had to wait for a few

717
00:52:39,547 --> 00:52:41,547
weeks. So mine was in April

718
00:52:41,547 --> 00:52:43,307
because I think I did it

719
00:52:43,307 --> 00:52:45,727
the next day when Craig Wright mentioned

720
00:52:45,727 --> 00:52:47,487
that he would be doing it or had

721
00:52:47,487 --> 00:52:54,707
just had done it and I was like oh but I can do that also but and I still I will always say that

722
00:52:54,707 --> 00:53:05,127
my registration of the copyright on the white paper only the white paper in this case is

723
00:53:05,127 --> 00:53:11,547
is not false it's not fraud because that is what many people claim that my registration is

724
00:53:11,547 --> 00:53:16,307
a fraud because would I own copyright on the Bitcoin white paper?

725
00:53:16,867 --> 00:53:20,347
No, I did not write it, of course. But what happened on the

726
00:53:20,347 --> 00:53:24,427
13th of December in 2010, it was

727
00:53:24,427 --> 00:53:28,047
one of the last day that Satoshi was

728
00:53:28,047 --> 00:53:32,287
doing something in public for Bitcoin on the forums and on

729
00:53:32,287 --> 00:53:36,427
the open source, what was it? Still SourceForge

730
00:53:36,427 --> 00:53:37,527
I think back then.

731
00:53:37,527 --> 00:53:50,707
And one of the things was handing over copyright of everything, the source code and the white paper, to the Bitcoin developers.

732
00:53:51,867 --> 00:53:59,787
That is actually a noted and provable action that happened on SourceForge on the 13th of December.

733
00:54:00,807 --> 00:54:03,067
A lot of people don't even know that this happened.

734
00:54:03,067 --> 00:54:06,947
And Craig Wright, of course, never knew that such a thing happened.

735
00:54:06,947 --> 00:54:13,327
And so he thought that that was for many years, that was his story and probably still is,

736
00:54:13,927 --> 00:54:23,307
that copyright was taken from Satoshi Nakamoto in 2011 when it moved from SourceForge to GitHub,

737
00:54:24,067 --> 00:54:31,667
which was, by the way, also an action that was approved by Satoshi Nakamoto to Gavin Anderson,

738
00:54:31,967 --> 00:54:35,367
but also something that Craig Wright never knew that there were in the background,

739
00:54:35,367 --> 00:54:42,567
those type of talks between the developers but back to the copyright that means that when you are

740
00:54:42,567 --> 00:54:49,347
either a wannabe or a real bitcoin developer and i pretend to be a bitcoin tester

741
00:54:49,347 --> 00:54:58,647
so i do i help with development of of bitcoin of course very small but i'm doing this since 2013

742
00:54:58,647 --> 00:55:06,867
seriously and I've been also in talks with developers back then so yeah I although I've

743
00:55:06,867 --> 00:55:12,727
never signed a paper I don't have a contract I don't have a but I do help with the testing

744
00:55:12,727 --> 00:55:20,667
of core software and updates and things well I have been doing that lately I'm not doing that

745
00:55:20,667 --> 00:55:21,647
so much anymore.

746
00:55:22,587 --> 00:55:26,487
But on that base, I told the copyright office,

747
00:55:26,827 --> 00:55:31,867
I am part of the group of Bitcoin developers

748
00:55:31,867 --> 00:55:36,227
mentioned in the, and rightfully mentioned

749
00:55:36,227 --> 00:55:40,407
in the license.txt file, part of the source code.

750
00:55:41,347 --> 00:55:42,407
So here you go.

751
00:55:42,567 --> 00:55:45,127
I have a legit claim on the copyright

752
00:55:45,127 --> 00:55:47,367
because it says in that license text

753
00:55:47,367 --> 00:55:51,867
that the copyright is now owned of the source code

754
00:55:51,867 --> 00:55:57,207
and the white paper attached to it belongs to the Bitcoin developers,

755
00:55:57,347 --> 00:55:58,227
and I am one of them.

756
00:55:58,647 --> 00:56:01,067
So my registration is legit.

757
00:56:02,007 --> 00:56:04,367
Nobody ever complained at the office.

758
00:56:05,727 --> 00:56:09,407
Maybe they didn't listen, but I think they did.

759
00:56:09,407 --> 00:56:11,047
Well, actually, I'm quite sure they did,

760
00:56:11,167 --> 00:56:13,707
because otherwise they would have asked me,

761
00:56:13,847 --> 00:56:15,667
like they asked Craig Wright,

762
00:56:15,667 --> 00:56:20,147
are you serious about this?

763
00:56:20,467 --> 00:56:23,947
And they even wrote two press releases in 2019

764
00:56:23,947 --> 00:56:28,447
telling the audience why it was not on them

765
00:56:28,447 --> 00:56:34,767
to do an inquiry into Craig Wright's claims.

766
00:56:35,527 --> 00:56:38,307
No, I never had those issues, to be fair,

767
00:56:38,307 --> 00:56:41,807
because my story was, I guess, rather solid.

768
00:56:41,807 --> 00:57:09,107
Yeah, well, there was a fun project that come out of this. I'm not sure, maybe you guys have never seen this, but in response, there's an artist, Bitcoiner, called Dim Zion, and he started knee-jerk reaction to this claim that Craig had copyrighted the Bitcoin white paper and anybody hosting it on their websites had to take it down or face being sued.

769
00:57:09,107 --> 00:57:12,607
he started the Bitcoin voice paper

770
00:57:12,607 --> 00:57:15,167
and he started assembling us all

771
00:57:15,167 --> 00:57:18,607
that were willing to come into the project

772
00:57:18,607 --> 00:57:19,827
in a telegram group.

773
00:57:20,027 --> 00:57:20,887
And before you know it,

774
00:57:21,307 --> 00:57:24,147
we had hundreds of Bitcoiners

775
00:57:24,147 --> 00:57:27,707
each reading one line of the white paper,

776
00:57:28,007 --> 00:57:30,607
which he turned into the voice paper

777
00:57:30,607 --> 00:57:34,427
because you can't sue the spoken word,

778
00:57:34,607 --> 00:57:35,367
freedom of speech.

779
00:57:35,927 --> 00:57:37,207
So anyone can go and watch that.

780
00:57:37,287 --> 00:57:37,827
It's on YouTube

781
00:57:37,827 --> 00:57:41,987
or go to dimzayan.com forward slash voice paper.

782
00:57:42,307 --> 00:57:44,767
And we've got all kinds of people in there.

783
00:57:45,067 --> 00:57:48,927
Even Lauren, even Lauren reads a line from the white paper.

784
00:57:49,847 --> 00:57:50,387
Oh, nice.

785
00:57:51,287 --> 00:57:52,647
I'll have to send you guys the link.

786
00:57:52,847 --> 00:57:54,147
You'd really enjoy watching.

787
00:57:54,147 --> 00:57:54,587
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

788
00:57:54,607 --> 00:57:54,967
Please do.

789
00:57:55,087 --> 00:57:58,247
It rings a bell, by the way, but not really loud,

790
00:57:58,327 --> 00:57:59,867
but I remember this happened, yeah.

791
00:58:00,867 --> 00:58:01,107
Yep.

792
00:58:01,547 --> 00:58:04,487
Even, well, Max and Stacey are on there.

793
00:58:04,487 --> 00:58:13,267
uh michael saylor um i think jeff booth lynn alden all these kind of guys uh matt o'dell

794
00:58:13,267 --> 00:58:20,467
uh you know it was um yeah it was it was a great great project giacomo of course all the names that

795
00:58:20,467 --> 00:58:26,387
you'd be familiar with it's it's a fun watch so i'll send you the link after this so you guys can

796
00:58:26,387 --> 00:58:47,279
watch it uh so then fast forward let get to let get to the meat and potatoes the circus the absolute circus that was the court show the courtroom drama i i you had to apply for a link from memory you applied for a link from the magistrate court or

797
00:58:47,279 --> 00:58:53,159
whatever and they supplied you the live feed i don't know about you guys well obviously you

798
00:58:53,159 --> 00:58:59,859
watched hours of it i lasted five minutes and i i just i'm i'm out i can't watch this guy talk

799
00:58:59,859 --> 00:59:06,919
any longer uh you know it took me well just on that point before we get into the bulk of it it's

800
00:59:06,919 --> 00:59:11,659
interesting you should you should say that because i got to a point i think i sat through his first

801
00:59:11,659 --> 00:59:17,219
seven days on the stand without not no problem but i made it through and when he came back to

802
00:59:17,219 --> 00:59:23,399
first or second time i i couldn't i couldn't cope with it i had to mute him um because as soon as he

803
00:59:23,399 --> 00:59:28,179
went off on a rant i had to mute it knowing i would catch up later i just could not bear to

804
00:59:28,179 --> 00:59:33,059
hear his voice anymore so when he was going when he when he started to veer off into a tangent i

805
00:59:33,059 --> 00:59:37,119
hit mute and come back when he was answered ask the question again so i had the same experience

806
00:59:37,119 --> 00:59:42,519
i got i reached my threshold in the end i i think the uh i think everybody in the courtroom did

807
00:59:42,519 --> 00:59:48,679
including the judge and including the uh the barristers right yes i think so yeah yeah yeah

808
00:59:48,679 --> 00:59:53,239
yeah now you're talking about the performance during the copa case i guess right

809
00:59:53,239 --> 00:59:56,159
because there was also

810
00:59:56,159 --> 00:59:58,639
a few years earlier in the climbing case

811
00:59:58,639 --> 00:59:59,279
there was also

812
00:59:59,279 --> 01:00:02,279
a live show

813
01:00:02,279 --> 01:00:03,799
I didn't see any of that

814
01:00:03,799 --> 01:00:06,619
I'm just talking about the most

815
01:00:06,619 --> 01:00:07,319
recent one

816
01:00:07,319 --> 01:00:09,379
the one which ended it all

817
01:00:09,379 --> 01:00:12,619
I will never forget

818
01:00:12,619 --> 01:00:14,159
the moment that he was questioned

819
01:00:14,159 --> 01:00:16,359
about the unsigned

820
01:00:16,359 --> 01:00:16,879
integer

821
01:00:16,879 --> 01:00:20,499
that was box office

822
01:00:20,499 --> 01:00:22,519
go ahead

823
01:00:22,519 --> 01:00:22,999
explain

824
01:00:22,999 --> 01:00:28,999
oh that was for me the moment that my jaw dropped on the floor i think it was not

825
01:00:28,999 --> 01:00:35,479
was it during the first one of those seven days it was because alexander gunning took over for the

826
01:00:35,479 --> 01:00:40,799
last the afternoon of the last day so he'd have like six and a half days of being like gently

827
01:00:40,799 --> 01:00:46,239
death by a thousand cuts by jonathan hoss and then alexander gunning came in like a like a

828
01:00:46,239 --> 01:00:54,999
bulldozer and just like steamrolled him oh that was amazing when he was asked uh that that whole

829
01:00:54,999 --> 01:01:02,419
i think it all happened in like half a minute not even one minute i think and it was like whoa

830
01:01:02,419 --> 01:01:10,819
that was top of the shelf not only comedy but how how to burn and and and wannabe satoshi to the

831
01:01:10,819 --> 01:01:22,459
floor. He was asked about code and Satoshi made code. I think between three or 400 times,

832
01:01:22,579 --> 01:01:30,139
he used an unsigned integer in the Bitcoin source code. And he was asked, but what does that mean?

833
01:01:30,139 --> 01:01:39,419
what does that do and craig wright was uh yeah well i don't know how to explain

834
01:01:39,419 --> 01:01:47,879
and his normal babbling and mumbling and he he went silent and i still remember because i was

835
01:01:47,879 --> 01:01:53,439
also watching the the video there was also for um for those who were interested and they became

836
01:01:53,439 --> 01:01:58,619
more and more and more i think at some point there were more than 1000 people watching the video

837
01:01:58,619 --> 01:02:00,319
lake of

838
01:02:00,319 --> 01:02:01,799
the courtroom.

839
01:02:02,619 --> 01:02:04,239
And I was one of them.

840
01:02:04,599 --> 01:02:06,599
And I still see he was raising

841
01:02:06,599 --> 01:02:08,579
his hand and he dropped his

842
01:02:08,579 --> 01:02:10,719
hand and he was completely lost.

843
01:02:11,319 --> 01:02:12,539
And then it ended up that

844
01:02:12,539 --> 01:02:14,679
this lawyer guy

845
01:02:14,679 --> 01:02:14,979
or

846
01:02:14,979 --> 01:02:18,379
no, what's his name?

847
01:02:18,599 --> 01:02:20,479
They have a special name. The barrister.

848
01:02:21,659 --> 01:02:22,599
Yeah, name

849
01:02:22,599 --> 01:02:24,379
King's Council.

850
01:02:24,379 --> 01:02:25,779
Oh yeah, KC.

851
01:02:26,079 --> 01:02:28,179
Yeah, the KC guy.

852
01:02:28,619 --> 01:02:34,199
went to explain from a book C++ for dummies

853
01:02:34,199 --> 01:02:39,199
and show him what an unsigned integer is doing.

854
01:02:39,839 --> 01:02:40,479
Oh, my God.

855
01:02:40,539 --> 01:02:42,539
And then you're supposed to talk with Satoshi.

856
01:02:42,879 --> 01:02:43,539
Oh, my God.

857
01:02:43,599 --> 01:02:46,099
This was, for me, one of the most brilliant moments

858
01:02:46,099 --> 01:02:50,879
during the whole, well, let's say the Copa show,

859
01:02:51,439 --> 01:02:54,439
how he was burned down to the floor.

860
01:02:54,439 --> 01:02:59,759
was there any moment that anybody thought that

861
01:02:59,759 --> 01:03:08,819
my worry was because you never know what's going to happen in a in a courtroom right you just have

862
01:03:08,819 --> 01:03:17,839
no idea and if they had gone the other way and judged him incorrectly did you ever have any

863
01:03:17,839 --> 01:03:24,299
worry because the the evidence that was mounting up was just so ridiculously one-sided

864
01:03:24,299 --> 01:03:32,379
I mean it's funny because I think a lot of people especially American viewers they were expecting

865
01:03:32,379 --> 01:03:39,379
the typical American courtroom drama where there's a jury and the jury knows nothing about the case

866
01:03:39,379 --> 01:03:43,579
and it's presented and it's back and forth back and forth it's objection objection they were

867
01:03:43,579 --> 01:03:47,539
expecting all this and what they didn't realize because they had didn't know or they hadn't

868
01:03:47,539 --> 01:03:53,599
bothered to learn was that 90 percent of this had been done in the years beforehand they were like

869
01:03:53,599 --> 01:03:55,479
why is Craig not testifying?

870
01:03:56,139 --> 01:03:59,119
He was cross-examined for seven days

871
01:03:59,119 --> 01:04:01,179
because he'd had the last three years

872
01:04:01,179 --> 01:04:03,059
to put his witness statements across.

873
01:04:03,339 --> 01:04:04,879
So Koper asked him a bunch of questions

874
01:04:04,879 --> 01:04:06,979
to explain his Satoshi history,

875
01:04:07,059 --> 01:04:08,119
his evidence, all this sort of stuff.

876
01:04:08,219 --> 01:04:08,759
What have you got?

877
01:04:09,159 --> 01:04:11,399
And through like 10 witness statements

878
01:04:11,399 --> 01:04:12,739
and all this evidence,

879
01:04:12,979 --> 01:04:14,259
thousands of pieces of evidence,

880
01:04:14,579 --> 01:04:15,799
that was his testimony,

881
01:04:15,939 --> 01:04:17,619
this big chunk that took three years

882
01:04:17,619 --> 01:04:18,899
to be put to Koper.

883
01:04:19,359 --> 01:04:22,179
And the trial itself was Koper

884
01:04:22,179 --> 01:04:28,079
questioning him on what he had sent them so asking him to explain himself so that's that's why there

885
01:04:28,079 --> 01:04:33,599
was no no um uh examination by his own lawyers because he'd done that already through three

886
01:04:33,599 --> 01:04:39,579
separate law firms it has to be said and so so we got to the trial and it was just a case of

887
01:04:39,579 --> 01:04:46,919
yeah like can he does he have any excuse for what he's put forward and we had a debate amongst

888
01:04:46,919 --> 01:04:51,219
ourselves once it finished and as we know spoiler alert justice met have ruled from the bench that

889
01:04:51,219 --> 01:04:56,219
he was in Satoshi but we look back and we said well what was Justice Meadow thinking on day one

890
01:04:56,219 --> 01:05:02,519
because was he thinking right I've been I've been doing this for three years now this case there's

891
01:05:02,519 --> 01:05:08,959
no way this guy is Satoshi he's the only chance he's got is if his excuses are so good that he can

892
01:05:08,959 --> 01:05:13,939
undermine what they have said what they've put forward as debunking his evidence and his arguments

893
01:05:13,939 --> 01:05:20,219
um or was he genuinely you know yeah it's a it's a fair it's a good argument but let's just wait

894
01:05:20,219 --> 01:05:27,259
and see 50 50 you know that that dictated where the trial went and i am so certain that he went

895
01:05:27,259 --> 01:05:33,119
into that trial knowing craig rike's character inside and out knowing his history knowing what

896
01:05:33,119 --> 01:05:37,379
he'd put forward and how much rubbish it was knowing how it made no sense whatsoever how it

897
01:05:37,379 --> 01:05:42,319
was a pack of lies and he was just seeing if there's any way that craig could come up with any

898
01:05:42,319 --> 01:05:49,039
any rational excuses and once he heard the excuses he was like nah this is this is nonsense and it

899
01:05:49,039 --> 01:05:50,979
amazed me that after

900
01:05:50,979 --> 01:05:52,939
every single day, his

901
01:05:52,939 --> 01:05:55,099
supporters were still saying, wow, did you see

902
01:05:55,099 --> 01:05:57,099
him today? He was on fire. He burned

903
01:05:57,099 --> 01:05:58,939
them to the ground. No, what are you

904
01:05:58,939 --> 01:06:00,959
talking about? But again, that goes

905
01:06:00,959 --> 01:06:03,019
to the perception. That's the Calvin

906
01:06:03,019 --> 01:06:05,119
Air Tunnel vision of only hearing what you want

907
01:06:05,119 --> 01:06:06,879
to hear. And it was

908
01:06:06,879 --> 01:06:09,059
obvious to everybody else that this was

909
01:06:09,059 --> 01:06:11,459
probably the most one-sided

910
01:06:11,459 --> 01:06:13,219
court case that I think

911
01:06:13,219 --> 01:06:14,999
Chattis Mellor has probably ever, ever had

912
01:06:14,999 --> 01:06:15,999
to rule on.

913
01:06:17,239 --> 01:06:18,659
Yeah, probably, indeed.

914
01:06:19,039 --> 01:06:22,779
shocking that it what i mean i guess hats off

915
01:06:22,779 --> 01:06:31,359
seven days of listening to that yeah and then he came back because so seven the seven days covered

916
01:06:31,359 --> 01:06:38,519
um the first the the evidence he'd handed across between 2022 whatever it was and 2023

917
01:06:38,519 --> 01:06:43,759
um and then he came back because he introduced a bunch of evidence right before the trial

918
01:06:43,759 --> 01:06:48,119
and the COPA expert had to examine that

919
01:06:48,119 --> 01:06:50,899
while at the same time as Craig's giving his testimony,

920
01:06:51,299 --> 01:06:52,959
they're examining this latest batch of evidence

921
01:06:52,959 --> 01:06:54,259
that he's been allowed in.

922
01:06:54,619 --> 01:06:56,119
So he comes back on the stand again

923
01:06:56,119 --> 01:06:58,899
to try and face that down and to explain that.

924
01:06:59,379 --> 01:07:01,219
And I have a feeling he also,

925
01:07:01,419 --> 01:07:02,619
well, I know for a fact,

926
01:07:02,919 --> 01:07:06,179
he also committed some perjury and some forgery

927
01:07:06,179 --> 01:07:09,279
during the trial to explain another bit of evidence

928
01:07:09,279 --> 01:07:10,139
that went against him.

929
01:07:10,559 --> 01:07:11,659
And so I think if I'm right,

930
01:07:11,699 --> 01:07:13,199
he was called back a second time

931
01:07:13,199 --> 01:07:15,279
to face even more questions on that.

932
01:07:16,199 --> 01:07:17,139
And that was when it just,

933
01:07:17,319 --> 01:07:20,019
the conspiracy theories just became absolutely outrageous.

934
01:07:20,199 --> 01:07:21,419
And that's when I started to switch off.

935
01:07:21,479 --> 01:07:23,779
So he had a seven days and he came back twice

936
01:07:23,779 --> 01:07:26,119
to face later allegations after that.

937
01:07:26,519 --> 01:07:29,379
Yeah, wasn't there some like really poorly faked emails

938
01:07:29,379 --> 01:07:30,099
or something?

939
01:07:30,579 --> 01:07:31,479
Rings a bell now.

940
01:07:31,739 --> 01:07:32,519
Arthur, I'll let you,

941
01:07:33,499 --> 01:07:35,659
you'll maybe be better on those details than mine.

942
01:07:36,559 --> 01:07:38,899
It's already one and a half years ago.

943
01:07:38,899 --> 01:07:41,339
there was first

944
01:07:41,339 --> 01:07:43,279
it was about all the

945
01:07:43,279 --> 01:07:48,599
the forgeries that were

946
01:07:48,599 --> 01:07:50,719
handed over during

947
01:07:50,719 --> 01:07:53,359
the case but before the trial

948
01:07:53,359 --> 01:07:54,519
oh

949
01:07:54,519 --> 01:07:55,679
I remember

950
01:07:55,679 --> 01:07:58,939
the Papanema emails

951
01:07:58,939 --> 01:08:00,799
were before the trial

952
01:08:00,799 --> 01:08:01,599
started weren't they

953
01:08:01,599 --> 01:08:04,799
yeah that was one thing

954
01:08:04,799 --> 01:08:06,799
and then

955
01:08:06,799 --> 01:08:08,599
the second thing was

956
01:08:08,599 --> 01:08:09,199
the

957
01:08:09,199 --> 01:08:12,539
what was it, lawyer, Ontier

958
01:08:12,539 --> 01:08:14,319
the Ontier email thread

959
01:08:14,319 --> 01:08:16,639
that was forged, spoofed

960
01:08:16,639 --> 01:08:18,379
the myod accounts

961
01:08:18,379 --> 01:08:19,199
where

962
01:08:19,199 --> 01:08:21,479
even Ontier

963
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:24,639
was willing to send a friendly

964
01:08:24,639 --> 01:08:26,519
letter to the judge, it wasn't

965
01:08:26,519 --> 01:08:27,359
us, judge

966
01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:30,639
yeah, I'm looking back

967
01:08:30,639 --> 01:08:32,379
now because my memory is

968
01:08:32,379 --> 01:08:34,399
but BitMEX research, obviously

969
01:08:34,399 --> 01:08:35,939
we're following it as well

970
01:08:35,939 --> 01:08:37,979
and there's a tweet here

971
01:08:37,979 --> 01:08:41,479
6th of Feb

972
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:42,359
2024

973
01:08:42,359 --> 01:08:44,619
Craig's own barrister

974
01:08:44,619 --> 01:08:47,199
presented this remarkable letter to the court

975
01:08:47,199 --> 01:08:49,439
as evidence Craig's former lawyers

976
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:51,259
on TA LLP stated

977
01:08:51,259 --> 01:08:53,419
that an email provided by Craig's wife

978
01:08:53,419 --> 01:08:54,779
is not genuine

979
01:08:54,779 --> 01:08:57,379
his own lawyers

980
01:08:57,379 --> 01:08:59,359
yeah and it's

981
01:08:59,359 --> 01:09:00,799
funny because he had been

982
01:09:00,799 --> 01:09:03,419
bad mouthing them before the trial

983
01:09:03,419 --> 01:09:05,159
during the trial he bad mouted them

984
01:09:05,159 --> 01:09:07,119
and they were I'm sure waiting

985
01:09:07,119 --> 01:09:08,979
for some kind of revenge they could take.

986
01:09:09,219 --> 01:09:10,899
And he just opened the door for them

987
01:09:10,899 --> 01:09:12,299
and let them walk through and kick him in the nuts.

988
01:09:12,379 --> 01:09:12,979
It was fantastic.

989
01:09:16,779 --> 01:09:18,059
But it's what you get, you know,

990
01:09:18,139 --> 01:09:19,759
it's what you get if you behave like that

991
01:09:19,759 --> 01:09:21,859
and then you piss people off and they'll retaliate.

992
01:09:21,999 --> 01:09:23,119
He's got no excuse.

993
01:09:24,019 --> 01:09:25,939
Have you ever met him, either of you?

994
01:09:26,939 --> 01:09:29,539
No, we hoped to because we both went down

995
01:09:29,539 --> 01:09:31,839
to the contempt of court hearing in London

996
01:09:31,839 --> 01:09:33,599
last year, last December.

997
01:09:33,599 --> 01:09:36,919
And we hoped more than expected he was going to be there.

998
01:09:37,119 --> 01:09:39,319
But he was a no-show there.

999
01:09:39,459 --> 01:09:42,099
But no, otherwise, we haven't had that pleasure, unfortunately.

1000
01:09:42,779 --> 01:09:47,039
So the contempt of court, that was after he had been,

1001
01:09:47,419 --> 01:09:50,319
the case was closed and you are not Satoshi.

1002
01:09:50,799 --> 01:09:54,299
Then he was sued again, I believe, by COPA for contempt of court

1003
01:09:54,299 --> 01:09:57,239
for lying in court openly.

1004
01:09:57,299 --> 01:09:59,539
It was a breach of the injunction.

1005
01:09:59,799 --> 01:10:01,139
So he lost the COPA case.

1006
01:10:01,379 --> 01:10:05,579
And the outcome of that was, because initially,

1007
01:10:05,579 --> 01:10:07,079
So, Kopa wanted injunction to say,

1008
01:10:07,079 --> 01:10:09,679
you are not allowed to call yourself Satoshi Nakamoto.

1009
01:10:09,679 --> 01:10:11,319
But quite rightly, his counsel said,

1010
01:10:11,319 --> 01:10:26,911
well no that against freedom of speech You say me if he goes to Hyde Park corner goes to Speaker Corner in Hyde Park and says I not I Satoshi he can be arrested you can do that so they said okay well he he not allowed to litigate based on the facts on the argument he Satoshi Nakamoto or he created

1011
01:10:26,911 --> 01:10:30,771
Bitcoin so he can't sue people in any court in the world or the commonwealth when it would have been

1012
01:10:30,771 --> 01:10:36,531
that he's Satoshi um and he uh there's like a bunch of other things as well but that that was

1013
01:10:36,531 --> 01:10:42,371
the core one was that he's not allowed to litigate based on that on that notion so then he shortly

1014
01:10:42,371 --> 01:10:48,711
afterwards started these champagne passing off cases where he sued these company, Bitcoin

1015
01:10:48,711 --> 01:10:54,051
companies, developers, a bunch of people for hundreds of billions of dollars, claiming

1016
01:10:54,051 --> 01:10:59,271
that they were passing off Bitcoin as BTC when Bitcoin was really BSV because it adheres

1017
01:10:59,271 --> 01:11:00,871
to the original principles, blah, blah, blah.

1018
01:11:01,431 --> 01:11:06,651
But in that filing, he had alluded to the fact, the idea that he created Bitcoin, because

1019
01:11:06,651 --> 01:11:12,651
if you are suing somebody to say you're passing off this thing as something else,

1020
01:11:12,991 --> 01:11:16,711
you have to have a vested interest in that thing to bring the case.

1021
01:11:17,471 --> 01:11:20,811
So he's saying, you're saying that Bitcoin is BTC, but it's not.

1022
01:11:20,911 --> 01:11:24,791
It's BSV. And I created BSV. So that's why I'm suing you.

1023
01:11:24,791 --> 01:11:26,971
But in saying that, he breached the injunction.

1024
01:11:27,251 --> 01:11:30,791
So by virtue of the court case alone, he breached his injunction.

1025
01:11:31,331 --> 01:11:35,091
So Copa said, well, come on, mate, you've breached your injunction within a few months there.

1026
01:11:35,091 --> 01:11:37,711
sued him for contempt of court on that basis

1027
01:11:37,711 --> 01:11:39,891
we all went down there, he didn't show up

1028
01:11:39,891 --> 01:11:41,131
open and shut case

1029
01:11:41,131 --> 01:11:43,511
and so he got, I think

1030
01:11:43,511 --> 01:11:45,031
do you remember the sentence after?

1031
01:11:45,131 --> 01:11:47,451
it was 12 months suspended or 18 months

1032
01:11:47,451 --> 01:11:48,651
suspended for 12 or something

1033
01:11:48,651 --> 01:11:51,211
yeah, I think one or two years

1034
01:11:51,211 --> 01:11:54,531
what is it called?

1035
01:11:58,351 --> 01:12:00,131
well, it was a suspended sentence

1036
01:12:00,131 --> 01:12:01,471
it was a drug term

1037
01:12:01,471 --> 01:12:02,711
yeah, that's the name

1038
01:12:02,711 --> 01:12:06,091
I think it was 12 months or 18 months

1039
01:12:06,091 --> 01:12:07,371
suspended for 12

1040
01:12:07,371 --> 01:12:09,131
yeah the jail time

1041
01:12:09,131 --> 01:12:11,391
for I think a year

1042
01:12:11,391 --> 01:12:13,371
or 6 months or 12 months

1043
01:12:13,371 --> 01:12:14,391
jail time

1044
01:12:14,391 --> 01:12:16,971
if he is doing it

1045
01:12:16,971 --> 01:12:18,351
again in the upcoming

1046
01:12:18,351 --> 01:12:20,811
2 years

1047
01:12:20,811 --> 01:12:23,511
so if he does the same thing

1048
01:12:23,511 --> 01:12:25,011
again he would go to jail

1049
01:12:25,011 --> 01:12:27,131
if they can get him

1050
01:12:27,131 --> 01:12:27,891
yeah

1051
01:12:27,891 --> 01:12:30,831
does anybody know where he is?

1052
01:12:30,831 --> 01:12:35,951
like has he completely disappeared since i mean he didn't show up for that court case

1053
01:12:35,951 --> 01:12:42,371
all he has said is he's in asia he won't say what country but we can assume it's one that

1054
01:12:42,371 --> 01:12:49,131
hasn't got an expedition to the uk that's that's all we know because there's still there's still

1055
01:12:49,131 --> 01:12:53,171
the cps that the crown prosecution service is still looking at the the perjury charges so

1056
01:12:53,171 --> 01:12:58,511
at the end of the trial justice meller said right i'm going to refer like the the amount of forgery

1057
01:12:58,511 --> 01:13:04,851
because he forged or there was over 500 pieces of evidence he was accused of forging,

1058
01:13:05,231 --> 01:13:11,051
both like for Copa trials specifically and used in evidence from previous cases for that.

1059
01:13:11,291 --> 01:13:17,411
So you've got this 500 plus pieces of evidence he's forged, manipulated or what have you,

1060
01:13:17,631 --> 01:13:19,991
plus the perjury, the lines he'd hold on the stand.

1061
01:13:20,511 --> 01:13:21,851
You've got all that combined.

1062
01:13:21,951 --> 01:13:24,231
So Justice Miller said, because of this scale of the perjury,

1063
01:13:24,291 --> 01:13:27,431
I'm going to refer you to the Crown Prosecution Service for criminal action.

1064
01:13:27,431 --> 01:13:33,651
and so that's why he then skid out to Asia fairly quickly so the CPS is still looking at this case

1065
01:13:33,651 --> 01:13:38,751
to see whether they're going to bring charges against him and so so for the contempt of court

1066
01:13:38,751 --> 01:13:45,231
thing if he were to breach that is that an extraditable offense we won't know until we get

1067
01:13:45,231 --> 01:13:51,291
there but if he is picked up for perjury by the crown prosecution service then there's every chance

1068
01:13:51,291 --> 01:13:54,311
that that's an extradition worthy offence.

1069
01:13:54,411 --> 01:13:57,431
So they could go after him for that.

1070
01:13:59,311 --> 01:14:00,551
What a mess.

1071
01:14:01,491 --> 01:14:03,911
And yet BSV still lives.

1072
01:14:04,131 --> 01:14:06,651
This is just the absolute insanity of it.

1073
01:14:07,251 --> 01:14:08,271
Like I said earlier,

1074
01:14:08,471 --> 01:14:11,071
there are people out there still shilling it,

1075
01:14:11,511 --> 01:14:12,771
openly shilling it.

1076
01:14:14,811 --> 01:14:17,611
Either they are complicit

1077
01:14:17,611 --> 01:14:22,231
or completely and utterly, totally brainwashed

1078
01:14:22,231 --> 01:14:29,871
and in so deep that they've just got to keep the narrative.

1079
01:14:30,711 --> 01:14:32,691
Otherwise, you'd go insane, right?

1080
01:14:34,051 --> 01:14:38,251
Nobody likes realizing that they've ever been tricked

1081
01:14:38,251 --> 01:14:40,371
or taken for a fool,

1082
01:14:41,091 --> 01:14:44,751
and especially not when it's a lot of money involved.

1083
01:14:44,751 --> 01:14:51,451
i mean there's there's people who swapped on the on the advice of craig wright and calvin and the

1084
01:14:51,451 --> 01:14:58,931
rest of them swapped their bitcoin for bsv in 2018 2019 the whole one which is well we i'm sure

1085
01:14:58,931 --> 01:15:02,451
there's some that did there's some that properly drank the kool-aid and swapped it all out and then

1086
01:15:02,451 --> 01:15:07,151
they just watched it plummet while bitcoin is skyrocketed so you can understand their anger

1087
01:15:07,151 --> 01:15:12,471
but i don't understand why that anger is directed at bitcoin and not at craig that's what i don't

1088
01:15:12,471 --> 01:15:17,491
get it's like why why are they so wedded to him can you not see the damage that he has done to you

1089
01:15:17,491 --> 01:15:24,671
but they refuse to it's um it's wild as well that uh i don't know what metrics they're using at the

1090
01:15:24,671 --> 01:15:31,751
moment to to uphold the you know the existence of bsb but just look at the price guys the market

1091
01:15:31,751 --> 01:15:37,691
has decided i mean i don't know the price of a bsb coin i think it's about 30 bucks now i think

1092
01:15:37,691 --> 01:15:46,171
happy to look yesterday or even this morning perhaps 30 30 30 31 so at the time of the split

1093
01:15:46,171 --> 01:15:57,031
they were of equal value now bitcoin is 104 000 and bsv is at 30 but they still believe that to be

1094
01:15:57,031 --> 01:16:02,891
the real bitcoin and it's going to have bigger and better and faster transaction time and better

1095
01:16:02,891 --> 01:16:13,831
blockchain you know it's wild yeah the code that people the more money because if they keep pumping

1096
01:16:13,831 --> 01:16:17,491
money into it it will still it will still survive it will still survive it's like a zombie eating

1097
01:16:17,491 --> 01:16:21,791
eating dead flesh it will still survive it just keeps going because the money keeps being put

1098
01:16:21,791 --> 01:16:26,911
into it and this is one of the big questions is how much is calvin air still really involved you

1099
01:16:26,911 --> 01:16:32,631
know he says he is but he hasn't mentioned craig's name once in any tweet since the day craig was

1100
01:16:32,631 --> 01:16:37,431
found guilty or whatever you want to say um he he hasn't mentioned craig's name once in a tweet so

1101
01:16:37,431 --> 01:16:42,291
he's divorced himself from craig completely he still says he's involved in bsv but is he really

1102
01:16:42,291 --> 01:16:46,971
you know this is the big question is how involved is he is he looking to sell the whole thing off

1103
01:16:46,971 --> 01:16:54,331
and just put it in the past we don't know yeah i mean he needs to dump his bags on someone

1104
01:16:54,331 --> 01:17:00,611
yeah yeah yeah i mean there's the whole terror node i mean they've been promising terror node

1105
01:17:00,611 --> 01:17:01,471
for years, haven't they?

1106
01:17:01,851 --> 01:17:05,051
And they seem to think that when this Terranode launches,

1107
01:17:05,171 --> 01:17:07,411
it's going to solve all their problems because they have to.

1108
01:17:07,451 --> 01:17:08,451
They have to believe that.

1109
01:17:09,351 --> 01:17:11,031
So when it inevitably...

1110
01:17:11,031 --> 01:17:12,091
This is a new word to me.

1111
01:17:12,211 --> 01:17:13,271
What the hell is Terranode?

1112
01:17:13,271 --> 01:17:15,431
Oh, Arthur, I'll let you explain what Terranode is.

1113
01:17:17,111 --> 01:17:19,471
Just with a straight face, but with a straight face, please.

1114
01:17:20,471 --> 01:17:21,251
I'll try.

1115
01:17:23,491 --> 01:17:25,171
It's Vaporware.

1116
01:17:25,571 --> 01:17:27,831
Sorry, it's a new project.

1117
01:17:27,831 --> 01:17:36,571
um nay it is something that has been announced uh for probably four five years now already in a row

1118
01:17:36,571 --> 01:17:44,911
uh it is a spin-off of what uh craigwright has been doing supposedly in 2015 with the

1119
01:17:44,911 --> 01:17:53,531
supercomputers uh which is basically a sort of a bitcoin node that can handle no yeah bitcoin

1120
01:17:53,531 --> 01:17:55,271
next level scaled

1121
01:17:55,271 --> 01:17:57,891
till the moon and back

1122
01:17:57,891 --> 01:17:59,891
so to say. So it is

1123
01:17:59,891 --> 01:18:01,951
supposedly capable of handling

1124
01:18:01,951 --> 01:18:03,771
around

1125
01:18:03,771 --> 01:18:05,951
2 million transactions

1126
01:18:05,951 --> 01:18:07,051
per second

1127
01:18:07,051 --> 01:18:09,371
just to say something

1128
01:18:09,371 --> 01:18:12,151
and massive blocks

1129
01:18:12,151 --> 01:18:13,871
way bigger than the current

1130
01:18:13,871 --> 01:18:16,031
max blocks that we see. I think it's

1131
01:18:16,031 --> 01:18:18,071
4 gigabytes and

1132
01:18:18,071 --> 01:18:19,691
yeah it's

1133
01:18:19,691 --> 01:18:22,311
supposed to be Bitcoin next level

1134
01:18:22,311 --> 01:18:24,871
and BSV next level then.

1135
01:18:25,771 --> 01:18:28,411
But yeah, they have announced it

1136
01:18:28,411 --> 01:18:30,371
as something that is coming up.

1137
01:18:30,711 --> 01:18:33,631
It was supposed to come three years ago,

1138
01:18:33,811 --> 01:18:36,191
two years ago, last year, this year,

1139
01:18:36,571 --> 01:18:38,431
and it's still not coming.

1140
01:18:38,431 --> 01:18:40,831
It's only being rumored that it's ready.

1141
01:18:41,051 --> 01:18:41,811
It's being tested.

1142
01:18:43,151 --> 01:18:45,411
Performance figures are being mentioned.

1143
01:18:46,451 --> 01:18:49,751
And yeah, we don't know.

1144
01:18:50,391 --> 01:18:51,591
It might come.

1145
01:18:51,591 --> 01:18:57,111
I think it's an actual project of Enchain, or the remains of Enchain,

1146
01:18:57,231 --> 01:19:01,091
because Enchain is not the company anymore as it was a few years ago

1147
01:19:01,091 --> 01:19:07,231
when they still had, I think on top, they had between 200 and 250 developers.

1148
01:19:08,111 --> 01:19:11,191
I think they don't even have one-fifth of that currently.

1149
01:19:11,971 --> 01:19:17,111
Maybe even one-sixth or one-seventh of that is only there.

1150
01:19:17,111 --> 01:19:20,991
but yeah they're working on something called

1151
01:19:20,991 --> 01:19:22,411
TerraNode the new

1152
01:19:22,411 --> 01:19:23,731
BSV node

1153
01:19:23,731 --> 01:19:28,011
it's coming

1154
01:19:28,011 --> 01:19:30,611
you know that

1155
01:19:30,611 --> 01:19:32,771
yeah exactly but

1156
01:19:32,771 --> 01:19:35,031
the thing we liken it to you know there's

1157
01:19:35,031 --> 01:19:37,131
that image of that North Korean highway

1158
01:19:37,131 --> 01:19:39,131
where there's like 16 roads and 5 cars

1159
01:19:39,131 --> 01:19:40,831
on it it's like that

1160
01:19:40,831 --> 01:19:43,231
because if you're going to put this massive

1161
01:19:43,231 --> 01:19:45,211
infrastructure in place you've got to have a purpose

1162
01:19:45,211 --> 01:19:46,931
for doing it they've got no customers

1163
01:19:46,931 --> 01:19:51,751
there's no customers Calvin's always promised enterprise coming soon never turned up like

1164
01:19:51,751 --> 01:19:57,671
governments never turned up so what is the point you know the the brand is so tarnished by now

1165
01:19:57,671 --> 01:20:01,811
through Craig through Calvin even though they've gone you know or they're divorcing in the process

1166
01:20:01,811 --> 01:20:07,291
of divorcing it's still there there's it's still tainted no one's gonna no one of any repute is

1167
01:20:07,291 --> 01:20:14,371
gonna touch it even even even the tech is crap because it has been 50 percent 51 percent attacked

1168
01:20:14,371 --> 01:20:17,331
several times successfully a few years ago.

1169
01:20:17,551 --> 01:20:18,511
I mean...

1170
01:20:18,511 --> 01:20:22,451
If anybody is listening to this

1171
01:20:22,451 --> 01:20:23,711
and it's made it to your ears

1172
01:20:23,711 --> 01:20:27,411
and you are invested in BSV

1173
01:20:27,411 --> 01:20:30,051
and you've been led up this garden path,

1174
01:20:31,311 --> 01:20:34,911
truly I am sorry that that has happened,

1175
01:20:34,911 --> 01:20:36,711
but it is definitely time for you

1176
01:20:36,711 --> 01:20:38,871
to just wash your hands of it.

1177
01:20:39,491 --> 01:20:40,971
And the unit bias aside,

1178
01:20:41,151 --> 01:20:43,231
I know it's going to hurt to sell BSV

1179
01:20:43,231 --> 01:20:50,711
and you might have hundreds of that coin and end up getting 0.0014 of a Bitcoin or whatever it might

1180
01:20:50,711 --> 01:20:59,391
be. Just forget the unit bias that there is only one game in town here. And this is why people like

1181
01:20:59,391 --> 01:21:05,871
myself and the other podcasters and people like you guys call us toxic Bitcoin maximalists,

1182
01:21:05,871 --> 01:21:13,491
if you like but but rather be called that than a fucking charlatan and that's why we're so damn

1183
01:21:13,491 --> 01:21:19,631
straight with people that we you know when we start getting into these conversations with

1184
01:21:19,631 --> 01:21:27,451
with crypto bros like it is you know tolerance zero absolutely zero i've seen too many people

1185
01:21:27,451 --> 01:21:32,771
get wrecked i i got caught up in it myself you know everybody's hands up here 2017

1186
01:21:32,771 --> 01:21:36,791
messing around with Litecoin and Dash and Ethereum

1187
01:21:36,791 --> 01:21:38,491
because I didn't know better.

1188
01:21:38,931 --> 01:21:40,191
I did not know better.

1189
01:21:40,711 --> 01:21:42,571
I come from that type of background.

1190
01:21:42,571 --> 01:21:47,571
I was Bitcoiner between 2012 and 2014, 2015.

1191
01:21:47,951 --> 01:21:50,871
Indeed, around the times when Ethereum came up.

1192
01:21:51,251 --> 01:21:53,651
I was interested in it, to be fair.

1193
01:21:53,771 --> 01:21:55,231
I even made good money on it.

1194
01:21:55,311 --> 01:22:07,563
I have to be really fair here It was part of the stash that I had that made my early retirement possible It was actually not Bitcoin It was mostly Ethereum that made it possible

1195
01:22:08,383 --> 01:22:14,983
But in around 2018 or 2019, I stopped being interested in it

1196
01:22:14,983 --> 01:22:17,823
because then I was looking at the real long-term figures.

1197
01:22:19,063 --> 01:22:20,783
Oh, man, I've even been to...

1198
01:22:21,563 --> 01:22:23,823
I still have some sympathy for Litecoin.

1199
01:22:23,943 --> 01:22:24,823
Don't get me wrong.

1200
01:22:24,823 --> 01:22:30,423
but I don't call myself an altcoin fan anymore

1201
01:22:30,423 --> 01:22:35,663
although I still I will never attack Litecoin too much

1202
01:22:35,663 --> 01:22:37,923
I mean I have some sympathy for it

1203
01:22:37,923 --> 01:22:43,643
from back then I went to a seminar in America of them

1204
01:22:43,643 --> 01:22:48,103
I met the guy himself a few times

1205
01:22:48,103 --> 01:22:50,063
I shake his hands I'm on a photo with him

1206
01:22:50,063 --> 01:22:52,423
I was smiling I was happy to see him

1207
01:22:52,423 --> 01:22:53,643
and he is a friendly guy

1208
01:22:53,643 --> 01:23:05,523
I mean, but when you really think of it since 2019, when I looked at the figures, when I think what is signal and what is noise, the only thing signal is Bitcoin.

1209
01:23:05,983 --> 01:23:07,203
All the rest is noise.

1210
01:23:07,543 --> 01:23:09,663
And then it's really everything is noise.

1211
01:23:10,223 --> 01:23:14,803
So I consider myself a rather hardcore Bitcoin only fan.

1212
01:23:15,763 --> 01:23:19,763
And I can be very critical about several projects.

1213
01:23:19,763 --> 01:23:29,043
indeed you mentioned the hex but also xrp uh the soul ada all those things oh man don't get me

1214
01:23:29,043 --> 01:23:37,283
started but uh yeah yeah that's how it goes but you can see that what i think if you look at the

1215
01:23:37,283 --> 01:23:45,343
waves over the years we have seen three or four massive waves that started when i i was interested

1216
01:23:45,343 --> 01:23:47,443
in one of those waves, the ICO

1217
01:23:47,443 --> 01:23:49,203
waves of 2014,

1218
01:23:49,323 --> 01:23:51,123
2015, I think, around that time.

1219
01:23:51,703 --> 01:23:53,563
Later you had the NFTs,

1220
01:23:53,903 --> 01:23:55,383
you had the ordinals,

1221
01:23:55,543 --> 01:23:56,223
and then all those

1222
01:23:56,223 --> 01:23:59,243
bullshit stuff that

1223
01:23:59,243 --> 01:24:01,183
was creating

1224
01:24:01,183 --> 01:24:03,223
thousands and tens of thousands,

1225
01:24:03,463 --> 01:24:05,403
and we're now running into probably more

1226
01:24:05,403 --> 01:24:06,763
than 100,000 of

1227
01:24:06,763 --> 01:24:09,063
altcoins and shitcoins

1228
01:24:09,063 --> 01:24:11,243
and whatever

1229
01:24:11,243 --> 01:24:13,403
utility tokens we all

1230
01:24:13,403 --> 01:24:15,283
have. But it really

1231
01:24:15,283 --> 01:24:16,623
it doesn't interest me anymore.

1232
01:24:16,783 --> 01:24:18,063
It's only making me tired.

1233
01:24:18,703 --> 01:24:20,963
And when I pull up the graphs of it,

1234
01:24:21,063 --> 01:24:22,743
when I sometimes I talk with,

1235
01:24:23,323 --> 01:24:25,223
now we have this lately

1236
01:24:25,223 --> 01:24:28,523
and it's dropping already like a bomb

1237
01:24:28,523 --> 01:24:30,543
for the last year, I think.

1238
01:24:30,823 --> 01:24:33,003
Caspa, something called Caspa.

1239
01:24:33,183 --> 01:24:36,043
It was supposed to be the Bitcoin killer.

1240
01:24:36,603 --> 01:24:39,463
And I got interested in Caspa for a bit

1241
01:24:39,463 --> 01:24:41,223
because one of my followers who I,

1242
01:24:41,223 --> 01:24:43,743
for the period of time, I like him

1243
01:24:43,743 --> 01:24:47,763
and I sympathized with his struggles with BSV.

1244
01:24:48,283 --> 01:24:50,083
And then he went from BSV to Casper

1245
01:24:50,083 --> 01:24:51,843
from one shitcoin to the other.

1246
01:24:52,463 --> 01:24:54,083
And I was like, oh my God.

1247
01:24:55,823 --> 01:24:59,303
I follow it for a bit,

1248
01:24:59,503 --> 01:25:02,603
but I would never invest in it, never.

1249
01:25:04,623 --> 01:25:06,863
Okay, guys, we'll start winding it up.

1250
01:25:07,243 --> 01:25:08,703
And thank you for coming on.

1251
01:25:08,823 --> 01:25:12,603
Thank you for your work and doing this deep dive

1252
01:25:12,603 --> 01:25:16,043
and everything that's going to come from it,

1253
01:25:16,123 --> 01:25:16,863
the three books.

1254
01:25:16,963 --> 01:25:18,183
I'm looking forward to those dropping.

1255
01:25:18,323 --> 01:25:20,883
Give us a timeline on that

1256
01:25:20,883 --> 01:25:22,563
and then I'll ask you the final question.

1257
01:25:23,003 --> 01:25:26,243
Well, this is a draft copy,

1258
01:25:26,363 --> 01:25:27,783
proof copy of book one.

1259
01:25:28,363 --> 01:25:31,003
So I've just got my hands in this last couple of days.

1260
01:25:31,123 --> 01:25:32,263
So that's what it looks like.

1261
01:25:32,263 --> 01:25:36,403
So Fake Toshi, Fraud, Lies, and the Battle for Bitcoin Soul

1262
01:25:36,403 --> 01:25:37,763
is out.

1263
01:25:37,883 --> 01:25:38,723
We're hoping next month,

1264
01:25:38,743 --> 01:25:40,963
at the moment we're having the audiobook recorded right now.

1265
01:25:40,963 --> 01:25:45,143
so once that's done we can look at a release date we're hoping for next month though all being well

1266
01:25:45,143 --> 01:25:50,123
and then we're going to release volume two either planning to volume two next year and volume three

1267
01:25:50,123 --> 01:25:56,463
the year after so one per year the first book here covers um craig wright's uh origin story if you

1268
01:25:56,463 --> 01:26:05,263
like so uh these early years up to 2013 2014 that one finishes so you've got the companies he ran

1269
01:26:05,263 --> 01:26:10,823
the ato scam that he ran and also covering his bitcoin creation story and pulling that all apart

1270
01:26:10,823 --> 01:26:15,783
as well so that's what that first one covers second one's going to cover the uh the doxing

1271
01:26:15,783 --> 01:26:20,983
the signing sessions and the creation of bsv and then the third one focuses on the lawsuits so

1272
01:26:20,983 --> 01:26:26,703
that's how we've broken those up so uh yeah hardback paperback ebook audiobook all coming out

1273
01:26:26,703 --> 01:26:34,643
next month love it fake toshi what i mean that name stuck right oh yes brilliant all right so

1274
01:26:34,643 --> 01:26:37,203
if you guys had one last

1275
01:26:37,203 --> 01:26:39,103
orange pill left to give to somebody

1276
01:26:39,103 --> 01:26:41,103
who would you give it to and why?

1277
01:26:42,303 --> 01:26:43,223
I'll let you go first

1278
01:26:43,223 --> 01:26:43,683
I think

1279
01:26:43,683 --> 01:26:47,063
Oh, there's only one thing

1280
01:26:47,063 --> 01:26:48,943
this whole thing

1281
01:26:48,943 --> 01:26:50,563
has only been possible because of

1282
01:26:50,563 --> 01:26:52,983
you mentioned him already, Mr. HODLNAUD

1283
01:26:52,983 --> 01:26:54,063
my

1284
01:26:54,063 --> 01:26:59,883
Oh, I think we lost him

1285
01:26:59,883 --> 01:27:01,183
We just lost him, yeah

1286
01:27:01,183 --> 01:27:03,043
Okay, well I've had an idea

1287
01:27:03,043 --> 01:27:07,943
So if you're meaning who's the last person we want to convert,

1288
01:27:08,623 --> 01:27:11,083
I'm going to actually combine two and one.

1289
01:27:11,243 --> 01:27:12,323
I'm going to say...

1290
01:27:12,323 --> 01:27:13,003
Oh, hang on, Arthur.

1291
01:27:13,243 --> 01:27:14,523
Arthur, you dropped out.

1292
01:27:14,683 --> 01:27:14,903
Sorry.

1293
01:27:15,623 --> 01:27:19,583
Just to make sure you understood the question correctly,

1294
01:27:19,963 --> 01:27:22,423
if you had one last orange pill left to give to somebody,

1295
01:27:22,803 --> 01:27:24,203
who would you give it to and why?

1296
01:27:24,363 --> 01:27:26,803
I.e. somebody that doesn't have the orange pill,

1297
01:27:26,923 --> 01:27:30,503
doesn't understand Bitcoin, but you would like...

1298
01:27:30,503 --> 01:27:31,343
Oh, sorry, sorry.

1299
01:27:31,343 --> 01:27:31,523
Yeah.

1300
01:27:31,523 --> 01:27:38,823
sorry i was thinking that i should honor somebody if i if i want to orange pill someone yeah

1301
01:27:38,823 --> 01:27:48,963
oh dear then i have to think uh maybe mark hunter no i know about bitcoin already

1302
01:27:48,963 --> 01:27:56,883
yes but do you own some not anymore i don't actually i'm all i'm all out i had to sell it

1303
01:27:56,883 --> 01:28:03,863
i'm gone unfortunately he lost it in a boating accident okay so all right yeah okay good nice

1304
01:28:03,863 --> 01:28:09,003
nice one you would like for mark to take the orange pill that's very very nice of you mark do

1305
01:28:09,003 --> 01:28:14,243
you do you have uh yeah i think i think i'm gonna i've got to say my parents so they could actually

1306
01:28:14,243 --> 01:28:20,963
understand what it is that i do because i've been trying since 2017 to get them to just get a brief

1307
01:28:20,963 --> 01:28:25,843
understanding of what i of this world that i'm working in and that i'm living in but they they

1308
01:28:25,843 --> 01:28:30,983
they it's a generation thing they just don't get it and i've tried to explain it and they just don't

1309
01:28:30,983 --> 01:28:37,723
get it so i would like to have them understand the benefit of bitcoin why it exists why it's not just

1310
01:28:37,723 --> 01:28:43,663
you know vaporware as arthur said that the bsv is and just to get give them an inkling as to why

1311
01:28:43,663 --> 01:28:48,883
i do what i do and why i'm in this space because years of banging my head against a brick wall

1312
01:28:48,883 --> 01:28:55,943
hasn't worked yeah yeah many of us are in that same boat my friend so how can people reach out

1313
01:28:55,943 --> 01:29:03,083
if they would like to get a hold of you and uh follow you on twitter or nosta what was the best

1314
01:29:03,083 --> 01:29:10,023
place um so for me personally i am at 20 nothing zero zero on twitter that's my only social media

1315
01:29:10,023 --> 01:29:16,703
and the podcast itself the dr bitcoin podcast that started all this is at dr bitcoin pod on twitter

1316
01:29:16,703 --> 01:29:18,683
the podcast is still out there

1317
01:29:18,683 --> 01:29:20,903
dating back to 2021 so you can go and listen

1318
01:29:20,903 --> 01:29:22,903
to those old episodes again if you want to have a nice

1319
01:29:22,903 --> 01:29:23,923
recap of the story

1320
01:29:23,923 --> 01:29:25,643
perfect, Arthur

1321
01:29:25,643 --> 01:29:28,383
I'm mostly on

1322
01:29:28,383 --> 01:29:30,903
Twitter, access they call it now

1323
01:29:30,903 --> 01:29:33,283
but I refuse to use that name

1324
01:29:33,283 --> 01:29:34,623
on Twitter I'm

1325
01:29:34,623 --> 01:29:36,443
very simple to find

1326
01:29:36,443 --> 01:29:38,023
Arthur underscore

1327
01:29:38,023 --> 01:29:40,143
van underscore

1328
01:29:40,143 --> 01:29:42,103
P-E-L-T

1329
01:29:42,103 --> 01:29:44,803
and then you can easily find me and connect

1330
01:29:44,803 --> 01:29:46,443
with me, I'm rather open

1331
01:29:46,443 --> 01:29:48,983
almost every day on Twitter.

1332
01:29:50,343 --> 01:29:52,543
And I'll see you there.

1333
01:29:53,083 --> 01:29:53,443
Perfect.

1334
01:29:53,823 --> 01:29:55,423
Well, thank you both for everything you've done

1335
01:29:55,423 --> 01:29:56,383
and thank you for coming on.

1336
01:29:56,943 --> 01:29:57,363
Been a pleasure.

1337
01:29:57,483 --> 01:29:57,803
Thank you.

1338
01:29:59,083 --> 01:29:59,803
Thank you.

1339
01:30:00,103 --> 01:30:00,603
And cheers.

1340
01:30:01,243 --> 01:30:01,803
See you guys.

1341
01:30:02,263 --> 01:30:02,483
See you.

1342
01:30:04,783 --> 01:30:06,283
Well, there you go, everybody.

1343
01:30:06,283 --> 01:30:07,843
Thank you so much for listening.

1344
01:30:08,063 --> 01:30:09,803
And thank you again, Mark and Arthur,

1345
01:30:09,883 --> 01:30:12,203
for coming on and for all of your hard work

1346
01:30:12,203 --> 01:30:15,463
over the years following this story.

1347
01:30:15,463 --> 01:30:25,923
I am sure many of you listening already had kind of the basic details down, but have probably learned something very new here today.

1348
01:30:26,103 --> 01:30:40,663
And you likely have some friends that might still be kind of embroiled in this idea that BSB is the Bitcoin, Satoshi's vision.

1349
01:30:40,663 --> 01:30:50,643
it's very hard it's a hard realization to come to when you have been

1350
01:30:50,643 --> 01:30:59,363
completely lied to conned tricked fallen into a trap it's not very nice at all

1351
01:30:59,363 --> 01:31:05,523
I'm sure many of us have experienced this and it could be you know from being sold a dodgy

1352
01:31:05,523 --> 01:31:13,523
second-hand car all the way up to just a straight up financial scam of which I've been a victim

1353
01:31:13,523 --> 01:31:21,223
and it's it's the hardest moment that's the hardest moment the realization and the kind of

1354
01:31:21,223 --> 01:31:30,183
mental gymnastics that you play with yourself to kind of you know make all of these theories up in

1355
01:31:30,183 --> 01:31:36,503
your mind that no it couldn't be true and you just keep wanting to carry on believing.

1356
01:31:38,003 --> 01:31:44,383
Even though the evidence being you're looking at the smoking gun, you're looking down the barrel

1357
01:31:44,383 --> 01:31:49,983
of the smoking gun and you're still unable to see it. It's an awful awful place to be.

1358
01:31:50,643 --> 01:31:57,063
So I hope you do share this with not just people in BSV but any shitcoin. This goes for any shitcoin.

1359
01:31:57,063 --> 01:31:58,723
any of them

1360
01:31:58,723 --> 01:32:00,903
they have a founder

1361
01:32:00,903 --> 01:32:03,003
who's claiming to be someone

1362
01:32:03,003 --> 01:32:03,823
or something

1363
01:32:03,823 --> 01:32:06,303
like the next best

1364
01:32:06,303 --> 01:32:08,723
and creating the next best whatever

1365
01:32:08,723 --> 01:32:11,043
and yeah you can put Vitalik in this

1366
01:32:11,043 --> 01:32:13,243
in this group of people

1367
01:32:13,243 --> 01:32:15,223
he's leading

1368
01:32:15,223 --> 01:32:16,563
people down a very

1369
01:32:16,563 --> 01:32:19,443
very dark dark path

1370
01:32:19,443 --> 01:32:20,223
to ruin

1371
01:32:20,223 --> 01:32:23,123
and it's been going on for many many years

1372
01:32:23,123 --> 01:32:25,343
and as our good

1373
01:32:25,343 --> 01:32:26,203
friend Saifadain

1374
01:32:26,203 --> 01:32:28,523
coined it.

1375
01:32:28,803 --> 01:32:30,623
Ethereum is the mother arsehole

1376
01:32:30,623 --> 01:32:32,583
from where all shit coins spring.

1377
01:32:33,383 --> 01:32:34,203
I just still

1378
01:32:34,203 --> 01:32:35,843
love that one's safe.

1379
01:32:36,523 --> 01:32:38,883
So yeah, if it's not Bitcoin, it's a shit coin.

1380
01:32:38,983 --> 01:32:39,723
It's that simple.

1381
01:32:40,443 --> 01:32:42,503
It couldn't be any simpler than that.

1382
01:32:42,603 --> 01:32:44,183
So please keep pushing that message.

1383
01:32:46,723 --> 01:32:48,523
It's not a toxic thing to say.

1384
01:32:48,823 --> 01:32:50,963
It's the truth. The truth is not toxic.

1385
01:32:51,123 --> 01:32:52,283
It just cannot be

1386
01:32:52,283 --> 01:32:54,943
by definition. So just speak your truth.

1387
01:32:54,943 --> 01:32:58,783
and just keep trying to educate as many people as you can.

1388
01:32:58,963 --> 01:33:01,423
And thank you again, Arthur and Mark, for all of your hard work.

1389
01:33:01,683 --> 01:33:05,283
Like I said at the beginning here, there's so much work that's gone into this.

1390
01:33:05,723 --> 01:33:07,563
The books are being released.

1391
01:33:08,443 --> 01:33:11,223
And as we speak, and the first one is available,

1392
01:33:11,683 --> 01:33:16,223
they will have number two and number three dropping over the next 18 months or so.

1393
01:33:16,663 --> 01:33:18,063
I'll have a link in the show notes.

1394
01:33:18,063 --> 01:33:19,443
Please follow them on Twitter.

1395
01:33:19,603 --> 01:33:23,103
Reach out to them in their DMs if you're interested in getting them onto your own podcast

1396
01:33:23,103 --> 01:33:24,723
or furthering a discussion anyway.

1397
01:33:24,943 --> 01:33:27,583
And finally just keep stacking your stats.

1398
01:33:27,583 --> 01:33:30,723
You've got Relay across Europe, R-E-L-A-I.CH.

1399
01:33:30,723 --> 01:33:31,983
forward slash Bitten.

1400
01:33:31,983 --> 01:33:35,563
Swan Bitcoin across the pond in the US,

1401
01:33:35,563 --> 01:33:38,223
swanbitcoin.com forward slash Bitten.

1402
01:33:38,223 --> 01:33:39,783
Like I said at the beginning here,

1403
01:33:39,783 --> 01:33:42,603
Bitbox have just dropped their brand new hardware wallet,

1404
01:33:42,603 --> 01:33:44,843
the Nova edition, it is a very,

1405
01:33:44,895 --> 01:33:50,715
sweet piece of kit it's all updated it's uh it's got a bunch of new security features

1406
01:33:50,715 --> 01:33:58,515
but uh more importantly do your own research make sure you're taking self-custody very very

1407
01:33:58,515 --> 01:34:04,995
seriously as we go into this next four to eight years of complete and utter craziness i mean

1408
01:34:04,995 --> 01:34:09,335
across europe they're talking about now the cbdc is going to be ready for october this is nuts

1409
01:34:09,335 --> 01:34:16,315
stack your bitcoin get it in self custody please guys come on step up if you haven't already get

1410
01:34:16,315 --> 01:34:22,495
over to bitbox.swiss forward slash bitten go check out at plebeian.market if you're looking to buy

1411
01:34:22,495 --> 01:34:29,435
some goods and services with your sats paywithflash.com allows you to start earning bitcoin

1412
01:34:29,435 --> 01:34:36,135
for the things that you are selling so get over to paywithflash.com orange pill app come find us

1413
01:34:36,135 --> 01:34:44,995
There's 17,000 Bitcoiners around the world all ready and willing to connect and go listen to your podcasts on Bubble.

1414
01:34:45,135 --> 01:35:04,569
Use their technology bubble B and you can start curating your podcasts This podcast is getting dropped on Fountain app so please switch across from Spotify or Apple Pods wherever you listening Get over to Fountain download the app

1415
01:35:05,009 --> 01:35:08,749
load up the Lightning wallet that's all inbuilt there with a couple of thousand sats,

1416
01:35:09,109 --> 01:35:13,449
and start streaming Satoshis around each time that you're listening to these podcasts and

1417
01:35:13,449 --> 01:35:20,389
boosting with messages. It's great fun, built by Bitcoiners, for Bitcoiners, and the video function

1418
01:35:20,389 --> 01:35:28,309
also now works on your mobile device on fountain so if you download the uh the episode you're on a

1419
01:35:28,309 --> 01:35:32,189
long journey you're on a train you're on a flight or something you don't just have the audio option

1420
01:35:32,189 --> 01:35:39,309
you can download and watch the video of this interview and the others that i've started uh

1421
01:35:39,309 --> 01:35:45,649
that have been uploaded since they started this this feature so thanks everybody for listening um

1422
01:35:45,649 --> 01:35:51,029
conferences I said at the beginning right yeah Bury St Edmunds in September you have the Balkans

1423
01:35:51,029 --> 01:35:58,129
in October and you have BitFest in Manchester in November links are in the show notes go grab

1424
01:35:58,129 --> 01:36:04,729
those tickets go use that code BITTON go get that discount go stack your sats and I'll catch you on

1425
01:36:04,729 --> 01:36:05,149
the next show